76 ms·

Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

• sleepyguy 2y ago
  This entire administration is shameful, I hope that this haunts them, what they did to Zelensky is unbelievable.
• munksbeer 2y ago
  Christ that is awful. I'm not going to sugar coat it, I think Trump and Vance are disgusting people. Proper bullies, to someone in a much weaker position.
  • mdp2021 2y ago
    I would have phrased that differently: "lack of morals proposed as a point of vanity". Incidentally (and for example), the "preacher" quarreled with Niall Ferguson days ago: the latter noted different times, when former conservative administrations condemned invasions, and received a reply starting with «moralistic rubbish» (or very similar words).
• JanSt 2y ago
  China can be pretty sure that the US will not act if they attack Taiwan. Trump and Vance are weak. All talk, no walk.
  • ncr100 2y ago
    MORE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43209538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43209538 This is what I'm thinking. Now would be a great time for China to start an invasion. It would be a crime. China today, that government is not above committing international crimes.
    • _t9ow 2y ago
      > Now would be a great time for China to start an invasion I'm not doubting at all that China has imperialistic designs on Taiwan and the South China Sea. But why would China invade, when its leaders can clearly see that Russia, through strategic patience, bribery, and aggressive hybrid warfare, has finally won the Cold War without ever having to invade the US militarily? Bribery is rampant among high-ranking military officers in Taiwan, for example. Many of them have been exposed to have sold classified information to the Chinese government for trifling amounts of money. China has also managed to poach a lot of former TSMC engineers to work at SMIC by offering generous salaries. Why take military action against Taiwan today (or in 2027, according to the CIA [1]) when China just has to be very patient? [1] And do we really trust the CIA, given how many times it has lied throughout its entire existence to justify starting/escalating wars?
      • attentive 2y ago
        the same could have been said about Ukraine, yet russia invaded
        • _t9ow 2y ago
          When Russia invaded, Trump wasn't the President quickly dragging the US into the realm of irrelevance, and back then it seemed very unlikely (even unimaginable) that Trump would be President again. But everyone had too much faith in the Americans, and here we are.
  • nxm 2y ago
    Perhaps Europe can defend it?
  • dluan 2y ago
    China is smart enough to know that US diplomacy lasts longer than a 4 year term. They've been operating off the 1992 Consensus, and had a longstanding agreement with the US re: One China Policy that was upended by Obama, and then Biden. Trump's chaotic swings are a blip. China is also smart enough to have been watching the "decoupling" pushed by the Obama-era CIA starting in the late 2010s, and then the Russian invasion, so an actual Taiwanese land invasion won't happen until China is fully decoupled, and even then there is the much bigger international fallout. China won't throw away its position as world factory. Within China there are too many people in the party who don't see a land invasion as feasible. All of the recent sabrerattling by the US and pushing Taiwan for a declaration of independence is what would trigger an invasion. To think that opportunistically exploiting a senile president's term to act on this conflict grossly misunderstands the entire Taiwan/China situation. And it says more about you and how Americans view global diplomacy.
• deleted 2y ago
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• toomuchtodo 2y ago
  This is how NATO replaces the US with Ukraine. Kicking the US out of Five Eyes is likely next.
  • oldpersonintx 2y ago
    [dead]
  • chrismsimpson 2y ago
    I don’t see this happening. Five Eyes is the US’s invite only security umbrella. Many in Australia would love to kick the Americans off our land (eg Pinegap) but as the US will “coup who they want” that ain’t happening.
    • toomuchtodo 2y ago
      The US is trying to kick Canada [1] and the UK [2] out. If the US is going rouge, the rest of the free world can go without them. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200375 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43166670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43166670
      • rbanffy 2y ago
        Sadly the US still has a lot of nukes and aircraft carriers ready to project power over its rebelling subjects and partners. I don’t expect the military to start refusing orders just because the president became a corrupt tyrant through legal means.
        • deleted 2y ago
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        • jauntywundrkind 2y ago
          In these regards, I think the US's unfortunately very hard to dislodge advantage is less the ships missiles & guns, and far more the "secret history of silicon valley" style signals intelligence gathering & processing. Very very specifically our massive massive government aggregators/analysis systems (not the focus of these amazing talks). https://steveblank.com/secret-history/ https://steveblank.com/secret-history/ https://hn.algolia.com/?query=secret%20history%20of%20silicon%20valley https://hn.algolia.com/?query=secret%20history%20of%20silico... The NSA built them released Apache Accumulo & Apache Nifi, to offer extremely fine grained control of massive massive data systems. Unknown if this is still the state of the art, but they're still contributing. The platform infrastructure to be Five Eyes feels like it must be absolutely vast, >50% of the job of Five Eyes. Its hard for me to imagine an alliance of nations taking this task seriously enough to build their own, to serve as the hub.
• deleted 2y ago
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• mamonster 2y ago
  Has there ever been a meeting that went this bad in front of journalists?
  • Alifatisk 2y ago
    I don't think so
  • duxup 2y ago
    Nope, this is the first such "blow up" where folks at the white house berated a guest they invited there.
    • kelseydh 2y ago
      The only recent historical comparison I can think of -- and it's a weak one compared to today's meeting -- was when Obama firmly reiterated to Netanyahu his insistence on the 1967 lines as the basis for a two state solution, and Netanyahu in front of the cameras forcefully rejecting that to Obama's face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l28xJitnP78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l28xJitnP78
      • redeux 2y ago
        Interesting as well since both Trump and Netanyahu are right wing authoritarians.
  • rbanffy 2y ago
    They used to have professionals managing such meetings.
    • forum-soon-yuck 2y ago
      They still do, and the fact that most of you don't see that this farce was scripted just proves that
  • tgv 2y ago
    No, this was shocking on multiple levels. What motivates the nominally most powerful person on the planet to behave like this?
• archagon 2y ago
  Sadly, “Trump takes military action against Ukraine” was on my Bingo card for this administration. We’re getting there, aren’t we?
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • bigyabai 2y ago
    Probably not. The worst thing America could do is unfreeze Russia's assets and give them back a few billion dollars to fund the war effort. Europe wouldn't permit America to join on the side of a Russian coalition, and America's Navy isn't capable of European operations without Europe's support. We could realistically offer limited air support and strategic nuclear threats, but Russia already has both of those.
    • Macha 2y ago
      The good news is that the Biden administration put most of the frozen Russia assets under European control, anticipating this kind of risk, but of course that doesn't mean Trump can't attempt to pressure Europe here.
      • deleted 2y ago
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    • hkpack 2y ago
      US cannot unfreeze anything, because all the frozen funds are in the EU.
      • toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Funding secured.
        • eisvogel 2y ago
          gold :-)
• sleepyguy 2y ago
  It was as if they invited him to the Whitehouse to set him up for a lecture and scolding. They had no intention of anything other than humiliating him in front of the world. It's shameful what our administration has done.
  • tencentshill 2y ago
    It makes sense from His worldview. Ukraine are the weaker ones, the natural losers. He doesn't help losers. There is no further thought or consideration. That territory was always Russia's to take when they were ready.
    • pantalaimon 2y ago
      I think it’s worse: Trump et al want to install a neofeudal system of society whereas Ukraine is fighting for the Westen Democracy kind of system. It’s clear that Trump wants to establish that as a futile endeavor
      • borsecplata 2y ago
        I think there's no actual plan, trump et al are just stupid. Looking at how DOGE is doing seems to coroborate this view.
        • forum-soon-yuck 2y ago
          [flagged]
      • tumsfestival 2y ago
        Nah, they just care about money is all. They look at Ukraine and they don't see a profit to be made, so they demand payment or the withdrawal of aid. Greed plain and simple.
    • jfengel 2y ago
      "Weaker" is a function of not just your own strength, but that of your allies. Russia wants Ukraine as a way to hit at Europe. Ukraine and its allies are a match for Russia and its. Perhaps more so, since Ukraine's allies have limited its use of force. With the US out, Ukraine may be able to exert much more force. Which is to say Trump's judgment of who is weak is deeply compromised by his belief in single strongmen. This will not go well for him.
• oldpersonintx 2y ago
  [dead]
• insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Ukraine is in a bind, and the US has the power to do whatever it wants. But boy, will the nations of the world remember this -- how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully. A really bad day for US foreign policy. The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.
  • archagon 2y ago
    Let’s be real: NATO is already a farce at the moment. If Article 5 is triggered by a European nation, would Trump respond? Of course not.
    • insane_dreamer 2y ago
      Yeah, I was wondering at what point Putin decides to roll the dice and put that to the test by rolling into Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia. He must be feeling his chances are pretty good right now.
      • tim333 2y ago
        I'm not sure that would go very well for Putin just now. The Russians are already supplying their troops with donkeys as they've run low on vehicles just fighting Ukraine. (https://metro.co.uk/2025/02/07/putin-resorts-using-donkeys-front-line-run-vehicles-22513922/ https://metro.co.uk/2025/02/07/putin-resorts-using-donkeys-f...) Even if the US did nothing, rolling into NATO lands would put them up against the UK, Germany, France. Poland et al as well as Ukraine. The worry is more that a ceasefire is called. Russia rearms and succeeds in taking over Ukraine and then a combined Ukraine and Russia attacks Europe with President Vance supporting Putin.
        • techorange 2y ago
          I don't think that we're this far gone yet, but is there a chance the US sides with Putin in this case? I think it would be risky, and I don't _think_ Trump's base would go for it, but it does feel like the long term goal is to try to sanitize the idea of a shift in the geopolitical order to ally America with Russia instead of with Europe.
• preisschild 2y ago
  Its time for EUrope to step up. If the US doesn't want to be the "arsenal of democracy" and the "leader of the free world" any more then only the EU (together with other countries like UK+AU+NZ+SK+JP & more) can do it.
  • insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Wouldn't be a bad time for the EU to announce that it's considering closing X number of US military bases in Europe, including the 6th Fleet HQ in Naples. That might get Trump back to the table.
    • hollerith 2y ago
      >closing US military bases in Europe I think Trump would welcome that, though.
      • insane_dreamer 2y ago
        He might at first, because he doesn't understand the implications of not having a base for the 6th Fleet in Italy. But the US military would be up in arms about it.
        • goatlover 2y ago
          Maybe that will give them reason enough to refuse an order to put down protests using the Insurrection Act.
        • donmcronald 2y ago
          > But the US military would be up in arms about it. The risk is why they'd be up in arms. Personally I think it would get spun as Europe acting against the US for no reason and Europe would become the scapegoat for any economic issues the US cause themselves. The only real option is to wait for the US to do something undeniable while saying you don't want it, like tariffs, and then to retaliate as hard as possible when it happens. The difficulty with that approach is that it makes it easier for the aggressor to pick off one target at a time. I'd be absolutely stunned if the Trump admin actually puts tariffs on the EU. I think it's a distraction so they can claim the EU capitulated in some way and Canada didn't, which somehow makes the tariffs on Canada justified. The tariffs should help us understand if they're crazy or orchestrating something more strategic. If the goal is to weaken Canada economically so the US can pilfer Canada's resources, the US will "make up" with Europe and punish Canada as much as possible. Canada, the EU, the UK, NZ, AUS, Mexico, etc. should have (loudly) created an agreement for unified retaliatory tariffs against the US over a month ago. Now we're open to being picked off one-by-one and it sucks.
• Alifatisk 2y ago
  What sparked this heated discussion? Zelensky asked JD what if Putin breaks the agreed diplomacy as he had done previously?
  • shiko_1st 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Looks like it started with JD saying that Zelensky wasn't "thankful" and was instead trying to plead (JD said "litigate" IIRC) his case to the American public (which of course he was, that's what these meetings are for otherwise you have them in a private room).
  • bitshiftfaced 2y ago
    It was already under tension because it looked like they couldn't come to terms. When Zelenskyy accuses Trump of being aligned with Putin, things started getting heated.
    • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      > When Zelenskyy accuses Trump of being aligned with Putin When was that, I haven't seen the whole thing except where it got heated, but at no point did I catch Zelenskyy saying anything that could possibly be interpreted like that. But mostly I couldn't hear what Zelenskyy was saying because he couldn't get a word in edgewise. Happy to be proven wrong.
      • bitshiftfaced 2y ago
        Ok I rewatched and I made a mistake. Zelenskyy was off camera and apparently it was a reporter saying it who I had mistaken for Zelenskyy.
• a13n 2y ago
  I wish HN allowed threads like this to hit the front page... The world is changing pretty quickly, and stuff like this does have implications on war, business, technology that's I think is worth discussing here.
  • pvg 2y ago
    Threads like this do make the front page sometimes, you can mail hn@ycombinator.com and make the case for user flags to be turned off for the post.
    • a13n 2y ago
      It's pretty rare. It was flagged dead when I came across it. My comment got over a dozen upvotes so it seems others feel similarly.
      • pvg 2y ago
        Look like it worked.
    • jack_squat 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • pvg 2y ago
        Ok, you know how Superman gets his powers from the energy of the Earth's yellow sun? Same, except I use being a busybody instead of the sun.
        • jack_squat 2y ago
          [flagged]
        • gnabgib 2y ago
          That and your snazzy HN club jacket :D
• inverted_flag 2y ago
  This was absolutely disgraceful. Another step on the road to becoming a pariah state.
• legitster 2y ago
  That video was hard to watch. Zelensky was being very dignified and they absolutely jumped down his throat. This public meeting was a complete setup, and it's ironic that JD Vance is accusing Zelensky of grandstanding.
  • ge96 2y ago
    "have you been to Ukraine?" No but... lol
  • fads_go 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • randcraw 2y ago
    Vance didn't believe for a second that Zelensky was grandstanding. He was trying to manipulate his video audience into believing that Vance wasn't grandstanding by accusing Zelensky of misbehaving as he was obviously doing himself. It's an old propaganda trick that Vance probably learned from the Russians (who used it heavily for 70+ years). But it works only on an easily intimidatable audience that doesn't know any better. Nor care.
• threecheese 2y ago
  That could have gone worse; president trump put his hand on Zelinski to quiet him, this particular action has precipitated physical violence probably since the dawn of language.
  • graublau 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • dworkr 2y ago
      [flagged]
    • randcraw 2y ago
      A classic form of intimidation. Lyndon Johnson was a master of it as he loomed over the target of his entreaties, tall man that he was.
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• duxup 2y ago
  > In a fireworks-filled public confrontation unlike any seen between an American president and foreign leader in modern times, Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. Jebus, how do you screw up a photo op? Buch of children in the US executive branch. I suppose they think they look “strong” but it looks more insecure and incompetent to me.
  • techorange 2y ago
    Unfortunately I think it plays well for their audience, makes Trump and Vance look strong, and makes Zelenksy look week.
    • drawkward 2y ago
      MMA-based diplomacy.
      • techorange 2y ago
        Yeah, I watched as much of the video as I could, and I can totally see this playing well with all the conservatives I know. JD Vance and Trump come off as strong, and Zelensky comes off as weak.
        • kadoban 2y ago
          That's not what strength looks like, but the American right-wing probably will think it is.
        • senordevnyc 2y ago
          No, they come off as weak little babies whining about someone not saying thank you.
          • techorange 2y ago
• deleted 2y ago
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• MilnerRoute 2y ago
  Alternate feed for the video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jqLtIrRqDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jqLtIrRqDg https://apnews.com/live/donald-trump-latest-news-2-28-2025 https://apnews.com/live/donald-trump-latest-news-2-28-2025 Is it just me, or does it seem like the conversation swerves suddenly to "you're disrespecting..." It just seemed like a complete change of subject.
  • belter 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • beretguy 2y ago
      I wonder what Hitler would be thinking about all this if he'd be alive.
      • shiko_1st 2y ago
        [flagged]
    • bigyabai 2y ago
      He's scheduled to address his nation in a Fireside Xhat as soon as the ketamine drip goes dry.
      • selimthegrim 2y ago
        I read that as khat for a second, and I was happy he found a new drug
    • rvnx 2y ago
      He took the same side as Russia https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1895537389436833967 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1895537389436833967
    • heywoods 2y ago
      [dead]
• insane_dreamer 2y ago
  quite an impactful and unusual event -- this post should _not_ be flagged
  • JKCalhoun 2y ago
    I've started going to the "new" section for HN instead of the front page to catch the news before it's flagged.
    • minimaxir 2y ago
      I read /new more often than the main page nowadays (not just due to flags on political stories, but it does give a better picture of what's relevant rather than the survivorship bias of the front page)
    • BJones12 2y ago
      Maybe you should try reading a mainstream news site or news aggregator instead
      • echoangle 2y ago
        Is there a good one with comments for discussion? Closest thing I can think of is reddit and you know how that is with politics.
        • deleted 2y ago
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    • jauntywundrkind 2y ago
      I have long loved https://hckrnews.com https://hckrnews.com for the chronological timeline, but the trail of [dead] across the timeline has been jaw dropping & horrifying to see & so so visible here. A top tier concern of our age is disinformation & propoganda. The lies are absurd & out of control. But denial of information is also a huge issue, and the ability of a couple few to suppress & deny here is remarkable. I'm so glad there's this timeline based site, showing what's really happening & the many many things denied.
• Bondi_Blue 2y ago
  Reuter's timeline: https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-russia-war/trump-zelenskiy-meeting-latest-updates-ukraine-minerals-deal-2025-02-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-russia-war/trump-zelen... To state the obvious, the Trump administration is more interested in profiting from a minerals deal than supplying any actual security guarantees. The Russian Federation has proved time and time again that they will breach any peace agreements (as occurred with the current invasion which breached agreements bartered after the annexation of Crimea) made with Ukraine for piecewise annexation of their neighbors, at any price to their own soldiers and people. True lasting peace, is avoiding further steps to another world war. It takes hardly a high school education in history to recognize those preliminary warning signs in Russia's behavior. A common talking point that the Trump administration seems to use, is that they are doing precisely that- preventing a world war- by refusing to further arm and protect Ukraine with weapons and security guarantees- however this refusal does just the opposite, and this minerals deal really has nothing to do with Ukraine's security or interests. The devil is in the details, and the Trump admin refuses to detail how the minerals deal would protect Ukraine or how they would respond to further territorial incursions if the deal were to be signed. Aside from all this, of course there's a lot of topical nonsense in how Trump and Vance conducted themselves, with shouting and lecturing at Zelensky, but these are all distractions, and they have almost no substance or details to back their broad claims about how or why this conflict started and what would end it. Scapegoating and bullshitting seems to be their game, but luckily Zelensky both asserted himself where possible and kept a relatively calm, but brutally honest, demeanor. Because the security threats to America would come a bit later, likely in the form of Russia marching into a NATO country, Americans will believe what they want about the conflict. Trump makes this especially easy with his false and misleading oversimplifications. It is sad to think that a proportionally small sacrifice by the American taxpayer to help a country like Ukraine has been sized up as unworthy collateral for saving lives and fighting fascism.
  • drawkward 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • amarcheschi 2y ago
• legitster 2y ago
  If you watch the video of the exchange, it was a complete setup. Zelensky was being very diplomatic when they started attacking him. Vance literally said he didn't need to visit Ukraine to see for himself because he "had seen videos". Zelensky was brought here specifically to be publicly humiliated on live TV. In 80 years, if we still have history books, this moment will be in them.
  • minimaxir 2y ago
    The theory is that the only reason Vance was present was to be able to double-team Zelenskyy.
    • duxup 2y ago
      That seems plausible as Trump in his speeches loses his train of thought now and then. Would not play well if he was alone in that situation.
    • insane_dreamer 2y ago
      I think the VP is usually present at these types of meetings; but indeed there was double-teaming.
      • philk10 2y ago
        and Rubio was there to..... sit and do nothing in an ill fitting suit
        • donmcronald 2y ago
          What can he really do in that situation? He can defend Zelensky or join in for a triple teaming. There aren't good options.
          • guerrilla 2y ago
            I think defending Zelensky would have been the honorable thing to do. It could have inspired other Republicans to start turning.
• goatlover 2y ago
  Utterly shameful. Do conservatives even remember when Russia was the enemy and Europe was our ally? Do you know what kind of leader Putin is? Is that what you want Trump to become? Do you no longer believe in NATO? What has become of the party of Reagan and Bush? Will you betray everything you used to claim you believed in?
  • twixfel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • decremental 2y ago
      [dead]
    • shiko_1st 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • TechnicolorByte 2y ago
        [flagged]
  • matwood 2y ago
    Conservatives no longer exist. It’s MAGAs who replaced their made up god with Trump. Then there’s everyone else.
    • deleted 2y ago
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  • logicchains 2y ago
    >Do conservatives even remember when Russia was the enemy and Europe was our ally? America and Europe used to have shared values, now the average American conservative is so disgusted by the T in LGBT that they consider Russia more aligned with their values.
• lijf 2y ago
  Sorry about the podcast link, the gist is that Ukraine now can build drones from cardboard, controlled from Kiev, London etc. that can destroy Russian tanks. https://www.ft.com/content/8793e218-9dc4-43a8-8183-e2a092bbb5ff https://www.ft.com/content/8793e218-9dc4-43a8-8183-e2a092bbb...
  • jcgrillo 2y ago
    "We've seen that international law doesn't really work, but international engineering is very effective" I would not bet against Ukraine.
  • digdugdirk 2y ago
    More of the Ukraine conversation needs to be focused on this topic. The future of warfare is digital, automated, and utterly terrifying, and it's currently being shaped on the Ukrainian frontlines. Western militaries are going to be able to leapfrog their force structure based on the learnings in this war. Ukraine is paying with their citizens lives for NATO to receive this education, while simultaneously weakening one of the western world's most dangerous geopolitical rivals. The fact that Americans can't see through the Fox News propaganda to understand this is unbelievable, embarrassing, and will set them back on the world stage for a generation or more.
    • jjulius 2y ago
      >The fact that Americans can't see through the Fox News propaganda to understand this is unbelievable, embarrassing, and will set them back on the world stage for a generation or more. Just a friendly reminder to not paint "Americans" with a broad brush. We may not have got our way this past election, but there are plenty of us who see through the fucking bullshit.
      • kubb 2y ago
        I think you're in the minority. All Trump had to say was "I'll end wokeism and immigration" and he easily won the election.
• goatlover 2y ago
  And of course it gets flagged 28 minutes later.
  • minimaxir 2y ago
    This is in the messy HN gray area of "politics that doesn't have a tech angle" and "politics that are extremely indicitive of the times." EDIT: Looks like dang turned off flags.
    • BoredPositron 2y ago
      Nope, the brigading of every topic which only scrapes at doge/elon/trump is too obvious at that point. I would really like an anti brigading mode with a higher karma threshold. 31 karma is not enough in times were both parties want to silence the other.
      • dang 2y ago
        I'm not sure I understand you correctly but here's a list of 40 major recent threads on that topic cluster: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168527
    • JKCalhoun 2y ago
      I want to thank @dang for that. It would be wonderful if we lived in time where we could put on blinders to what is happening around us. The times are getting a little too "interesting" though.
      • dcminter 2y ago
        I don't. Not because this isn't an important topic - it is, but because: > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, [...] unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. [...] If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. This is about politics. It is already being covered on TV news. Is it evidence of an interesting new phenomenon? It's unusual to see that sort of behaviour, sure, but in the Trump era? How surprised are we exactly? All the comments are the very predictable trench digging. I'd rather see it flagged into oblivion.
• lun4r 2y ago
  If I were American, I’d be sick with shame. As a European, I’m disgusted—not just by your leadership, but by your silence. Your country is spiraling into disgrace, yet you sit there, watching, complaining online, doing nothing. Where is your outrage? Where are the millions in the streets forcing change? By staying silent, you are complicit. Just like the Russians who let Putin tighten his grip for decades, you are letting a clown dismantle your democracy in real time. History won’t just judge you—it will condemn you. Stand up, or accept your place among the cowards who let their nations rot.
  • duxup 2y ago
    >but by your silence What qualifies as not that? I've said my peace, my ability to deploy millions is limited.
  • senordevnyc 2y ago
    As an American, I share your disgust. The reality here is that a plurality of American voters chose Trump, and they still approve of the job he's doing (though that's dropping fast): https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-trump/?ex_cid=abcpromo https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-t... I know this is exactly what Trump wants, but I don't know that I have the energy to continue to try and convince my fellow Americans that their demigod will destroy this country. They voted for this, they got it, now let's see how far they're willing to let this country fall before they change their tune.
    • jcgrillo 2y ago
      We don't have a good sense as a nation of the consequences of our actions. People don't believe things can get very bad here in the US. Zelensky said it himself, we feel safe because we have a big ocean separating us from the war. I'm afraid we won't learn without getting our ass kicked.
      • geodel 2y ago
        > I'm afraid we won't learn without getting our ass kicked. Thats like truism. I don't see any country is learning before that.
• rawgabbit 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • deleted 2y ago
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• deleted 2y ago
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• twixfel 2y ago
  Flagged again. It's really pathetic how the Americans here are burying their heads in the sand about what their country has done to the West and how it has betrayed Western civilisation.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
• sympil 2y ago
  What is most interesting is the presence of Vance and that he started the argument. Yesterday he was with Trump and the British PM and accused the UK of being against free speech. I don’t recall VPs being active in such meetings before now. It says a lot that Vance is taking such a prominent role in areas that VPs traditionally do not publicly venture in.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • Jtsummers 2y ago
    He needs to establish himself as a leader (this behavior doesn't help beyond maybe their base) if he wants to be president after Trump. It's also ingratiating behavior towards Trump which will help ensure he remains on his good side and part of the in-crowd.
    • sympil 2y ago
      I get the sense that Vance and Musk are the ones really in control.
      • philk10 2y ago
        Steven Miller and Musk, not Vance
      • tailsdog 2y ago
        I think it's actually Thiel who is in control and pulling the strings here. He essentially got Vance into his current position and is obviously still linked to Musk.
    • manmal 2y ago
      Isn’t Vance sponsored by Thiel and therefore here to stay?
      • Jtsummers 2y ago
• mopsi 2y ago
  Why aren't tech stocks in freefall? Chinese invasion of Taiwan now seems imminent.
  • legitster 2y ago
    Not immediately imminent. China themselves have said 2027-ish.
    • mopsi 2y ago
      Major amphibious operations take 4-6 months to plan and prepare if rushed. I cannot imagine the Chinese watching the feed from the White House without seeing it as a row of green lights blinking for them. The unholy alliance of tech companies and Russian astroturfing on their unregulated social media platforms has delivered a decapitation strike on Washington. The US government is rapidly severing long-standing alliances, and showing utter unwillingness to defend its strategic interests - all out of sheer incompetence, no less.
      • pcj-github 2y ago
        This
      • DrFalkyn 2y ago
        Nah, I think they’ll wait until a civil war breaks out in the US
    • _t9ow 2y ago
      > China themselves have said 2027-ish. According to the CIA, which has never, ever fabricated anything in the entire history of its existence to justify starting or escalating wars.
      • legitster 2y ago
        This comes directly from Xi's speeches at the People's National Congress, going back to 2023.
• _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Don't forget that Ukraine has a pretty good donation website setup if that happens to be a cause you are willing and have the financial resources to give to.
  • Jordan-117 2y ago
    Wonder how long until donating to UKR gets you put on some sort of government list.
    • bilbo0s 2y ago
      I'm sure it already does put you on a list. That's just the way any government works. That information is valuable.
    • hkpack 2y ago
      It already does, don’t go to russia in any case if you’ve donated even few bucks.
  • amarcheschi 2y ago
    https://u24.gov.ua/ https://u24.gov.ua/ You can choose the allocation of your donation, defence, or if you'd rather donate to other causes, humanitarian aid, demining, rebuilding (...) A few months ago in my city, an ambulance shelled by Russians in kharkiv was shown. It was quite destroyed, and chock full of holes. It was quite moving
    • myko 2y ago
      Thanks for the link, glad to donate
    • simonswords82 2y ago
      @dang perhaps you could pin https://u24.gov.ua/ https://u24.gov.ua/ to the top of the comments? Either way, I've donated 50 bucks; seems like a great way to show support on a difficult day for Ukraine.
• JumpinJack_Cash 2y ago
  > > "You went to campaign with the opposition" Zelensky is facing opposition, every day ever since 2022, Trump faced his best friend Schumer and a whole bunch of people he laughs with when the cameras are off (or even when they are on considering how he laughed amicably with Obama at Carter's funeral.) Romney would have never done this, the end of religion and the rise of social media could very well be the thing that ends us for good.
• duxup 2y ago
  Shameful day for America where the President and VP two on one berate a visiting leader (guest even) who is fighting for his countries freedom against a totalitarian regime.
  • kappi 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • belter 2y ago
    Reaction from Dmitry Medvedev a few minutes ago: "The insolent pig got a smack down in the White House" Maybe the current administration can work more efficiently if Russia and the US have a single spokesman?
    • wave-function 2y ago
      Pay no attention to him, he's being belligerent in an attempt to atone for his sins of promoting liberal policies 12-16 year ago. His rants really don't represent anyone or matter in any way.
      • sph 2y ago
        His rants represent the view of the Kremlin, as well as those of the Oval Office in Washington.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  • linuxftw 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • myko 2y ago
      This is really sad
    • nelsonfigueroa 2y ago
• Giorgi 2y ago
  [flagged]
• duxup 2y ago
  I wish the EU was more ... united. Most of the nations were woefully slow to act with Ukraine (hey let's send some token helmets). They've got a totalitarian regime invading democracies in their back yard but don't seem all that united about it ....
  • jahnu 2y ago
    Yes me too. Europe needs to get its act together and do _more_ but let’s also not adopt Trump’s descriptions of what has been given. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukra...
    • teaearlgraycold 2y ago
      The dark humor in me really wants Russia to be colored dark blue in that map.
  • gjsman-1000 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • aeim 2y ago
      and law (or justice), international or otherwise, doesn't really exist without money (or collateral) what a web
    • quacked 2y ago
      ^ people downvoting your comment are wrong; it's completely true. The nation-state is a martial construct; the difference between it and its neighbors is a line of demarcation upheld by an external-facing military, and its own legitimacy, economy, and system of laws and conflict resolution is enforced on the populace via an internal-facing "military" (police force). (Edit: when I wrote this the parent comment was light grey, but now it's back to black. Perhaps it's a controversial comment.)
      • 2y ago
• shiko_1st 2y ago
  [flagged]
• goshx 2y ago
  Can we take the opportunity to discuss why Trump's administration is so desperately going after rare earth minerals? Greenland, Canada, Ukraine... Is it only about chips and AI for economic reasons or is there more involved like, an army of robots or something to control everything?
  • bloopernova 2y ago
    It's coming from elon, who has courted russia for Ukraine's metals and minerals since at least the 2022 invasion.
    • goshx 2y ago
      That's what I suspect as well, especially with the tesla bots, but there is also Ellison's influence
    • sebazzz 2y ago
      SpaceX Flacon 9 nozzles contain nyobium which is mined in Ukraine. It has been a problem since that invasion, and one of the reasons SpaceX sometimes flies short stubby nozzles when possible.
  • TheAlchemist 2y ago
    I think it's the same reason Musk is promoting his Mars bullshit. This appears as very long term thinking, while in reality is a way to siphon money in the short term and sell whatever idea they currently have under this long term plan. Not to say that it would be bad for US to own Greenland - of course it would be great. Mars too BTW...
    • pjc50 2y ago
      Greenland is worthless, and having a long running territorial dispute with the entirety of Europe would be bad for all involved.
      • TheAlchemist 2y ago
• freen 2y ago
  Realtalk: Would you entrust the nuclear arsenal to someone who honestly thinks "asylum seekers" came from an insane asylum? https://thespectator.com/topic/spectator-interview-president-donald-trump-full-transcript/ https://thespectator.com/topic/spectator-interview-president...
  • freen 2y ago
    Can someone please make this make sense? “Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth last week ordered U.S. Cyber Command to stand down from all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions.” https://therecord.media/hegseth-orders-cyber-command-stand-down-russia-planning https://therecord.media/hegseth-orders-cyber-command-stand-d...
    • tim333 2y ago
      Going back in history re Trump "The top level of the Soviet diplomatic service arranged his 1987 Moscow visit. With assistance from the KGB." https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/19/trump-first-moscow-trip-215842/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/19/trump-fir... And then of his return he ran a full page ad in three papers asking to reduce the US's overseas defence spending https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/15/trumps-nato-isolationism-is-least-years-old/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/15/trumps-na... etc. and repeat similar stuff again and again. Palling around with Russia, helping out Russia.
• aaroninsf 2y ago
  This timeline is so bad, it is increasingly hard to dismiss the possibility that that is not the product of change, but rather the product of being in an absolutely shitty simulation.
  • te0006 2y ago
    or of a CERN experiment in ~2015 having had ...side effects
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • WA 2y ago
      "NATO expansion" is one point of view. Another is: a sovereign country (Ukraine) prefers the west over Russia and wants to join it. So what’s the propaganda now?
      • surfpel 2y ago
        Ukraine needs to be allowed to be a sovereign country, but it currently is not. Here is Victoria Nuland choosing the next leader of Ukraine in 2014 in a call. Mind you, she apologized for her comment saying 'fuck the EU', but not for meddling in another countries politics. So it's confirmed if you're doubting the validity. The call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE I do not, and will never regard a country as sovereign at this level of intervention.
        • WA 2y ago
          Many assumptions you make: - No desire within Ukraine to join the West in/before 2014. - No meddling from Russia within Ukraine to be pro-Russia since Ukraine became independent. - The invasion of Russia is "just a reaction and there were no diplomatic alternatives" Your view of the things seem to start 2014 and neglect interferences and choices Russia made. This is typical for people painting the West as the "true culprits": The West is always painted as a propaganda machine, while meddling with foreign nations. But Russia is a single unit with only the best intentions. Furthermore, the situation evolved over many years. Even if the West had their hands in play in 2014, a lot happened since then. For example, Russia annexed Crimea. You make it sound as if Ukrainians as a whole are undividedly pro-Russian. Edit: this article gives more context for the whole situation back then: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-us-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601K/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/leaked-audio-reveals-e...
• seydor 2y ago
  It looks like the US wants a regime change in Ukraine, it's possible that this became a pre condition from russia for talks to go forward. OTOH, a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine. Lots of drama and optics involved for sure, but it seems the outcome or the talks was predetermined JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?
  • preisschild 2y ago
    > OTOH, a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine. Most of the minerals are in russian-occupied territory, so if they want that they would also need to further arm Ukraine now.
    • techterrier 2y ago
      nope, they can do a deal with the Russians.
    • kadoban 2y ago
      It does not seem like Trump actually wants a deal. They are not offering anything. It appears to be simply a pretext to have some reason to berate Ukraine and Zelenskyy. "Oh you won't take our [completely ridiculous] deal? I guess we'll just have to side with Russia then!" Like that's not what they were going to do anyway.
  • ksaj 2y ago
    Putin said he would gladly share with the US. So there is yet another, larger carrot dangling in front of Trump's eyes.
    • GuestFAUniverse 2y ago
      Like Gaza for the development of Kushner's hotels on the seaside. And I bet the right-wing-conservative scum helping him from Israel already got their shares.
  • deleted 2y ago
• decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
• TheAlchemist 2y ago
  Zelensky just proved once again what real leadership looks like. He went to the White House knowing that they will try to do exactly that and yet he did it with his head held high and did not sign the deal. Amazing guy. This is also a historic day for the world. US dominance over the West is over. As a European, I will vote against any politician that keeps talking about EU-US special partnership and doesn't put 'EU First'. The special partnership is over, we are still doing business together but it's clear as a day that it's only business from now on.
  • fooker 2y ago
    You’re not wrong, but there’s a reason US was in this position for this long. There’s no ‘EU first’, every European country has constantly tried to one up their rivals for the last several centuries.
    • surgical_fire 2y ago
      On the other hand, EU is a very recent experiment, given the length of European history. In that sense, European countries were never as close as they are right now. I expect it to strengthen as time passes, especially now that the US should be seen as an hostile foreign nation to every European country. Not to mention that after the shitshow that Brexit proved to be, even right-wing parties in Europe sort of abandoned their "leave EU" rhetoric.
      • manmal 2y ago
        We’d need a common language in order to get as close as US states are to each other. English does work, but it’s not quite the same.
        • surgical_fire 2y ago
          Eh, English does the job. I don't think a common language is as necessary as you are making it out to be. India uses English as lingua franca because it has dozens on languages, and it is a more or less cohesive country.
• headsman771 2y ago
  Zelensky went there under the pretext of signing the mineral deal, but changed his mind before arriving. He's trying to pressure Trump and America in general into giving Ukraine NATO membership or security guarantees against Russia. Sorry, but Ukraine, which is not in NATO and thus not entitled to unconditional defense, is not worth starting WW3 over. Its sickening watching Zelensky and Europe act like my country is obligated to go into unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them.
  • tayo42 2y ago
    Are you familiar with the Budapest memorandum?
  • vsean 2y ago
    > Zelensky went there under the pretext of signing the mineral deal, but changed his mind before arriving. That's not true. The agreement that both sides drafted was agreed upon and Zelensky planned on signing it. > Sorry, but Ukraine, which is not in NATO and thus not entitled to unconditional defense, is not worth starting WW3 over. No one ever said they needed to. What gives you that impression. > Its sickening watching Zelensky and Europe act like my country is obligated to go into unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them. To be clear European NATO partners do expect the US to go unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them. It's called NATO. And the only time it's been used so far was for 911 when all NATO countries came to the US's aid after it was attacked. As for Ukraine. Firstly the US has give much less than the EU. The number Trump keep pushing, $350BN is lies. Ukraine has seen about $70 Billion. Which Zelensky has thanked the US for on may occasions, notably in front of congress. The US owes no one anything, but is it too much to ask that Trump goes hard on the ones who started the war, Russia, who commited war crimes and abducted children, and continue to bomb civilian areas say after day. Instead of shaking down a country and people at their weakest hour for money that was given to it by the previous president?
    • headsman771 2y ago
      The linked article doesnt mention the agreement changing. Did it? If it did I can understand him not signing it. However there was reporting prior to his arrival that he didnt intend to sign it, and considered it something that lower level officials could do. This was after the impression was given that he was coming to the US to sign it, as you admitted was his intention. > No one ever said they needed to. What gives you that impression NATO membership for Ukraine is an attempt to call Russia's bluff that they wouldn't continue fighting, or escelate to nuclear weapons if Ukraine were admitted. That is a direct die roll on starting WW3 and Ukraine is not worth it. > To be clear European NATO partners do expect the US to go unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them. It's called NATO. I think you understood that I meant for Ukraine. If not, well, it wasn't difficult to see that's what I meant. Yes, the US should, and I and most Americans do support, upholding Article 5 obligations. > As for Ukraine. Firstly the US has give much less than the EU. I hope you're joking. > The US owes no one anything, but is it too much to ask that Trump goes hard on the ones who started the war, Russia, who... The west collectively went hard on Russia. We gave Ukraine more of a fighting chance than anyone could possibly hope for. But Russia is winning. We will not escalate to risking WW3. Ukrainians are amazingly tough people and what happened to them is a tragedy, but its in their best interest to stop fighting and dying.
• tehjoker 2y ago
  Thank god that finally we're going to stop sending hundreds of thousands of men into a meat grinder for no purpose. Ofc, Trump is doing this in great part because he personally hates Zelensky and Biden. He's doing what he did to Obama and just unwinding everything his predecessor did. He also correctly ascertains that this is a huge waste of money that is counterproductive. All the liberal cold warriors that wanted to bleed russia made Russia stronger by doing this. Not that I care either way, but it's funny to watch these war hawks have it blow up in their face, not that they really care since they are eating charcuterie at DC lawn parties with their Raytheon bucks.
  • tgv 2y ago
    The US has an effective way of ending that: more, heavier weapons, no restrictions, and a promise to place peace keepers. Instead, they chose to infuriate a key player. Cui bono?
    • tehjoker 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • myko 2y ago
        if Ukraine wants to end the war they need to defeat Putin if Russia wants to end the war they need to leave why are you blaming Ukraine
        • graublau 2y ago
          [flagged]
          • myko 2y ago
            This is not the case. A Russian puppet took over the Ukrainian government on promises of aligning Ukraine with Europe and was removed by the Ukrainian people when it was clear he had lied. He then fled to Russia, where he belongs. The legislature did the equivalent of impeachment+removal to remove him from office. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych
• tonymet 2y ago
  Negotiations get heated. It's the only way to reach an honest agreement. Better to get those feelings out. Trump was elected on negotiating a peace, and that's going to piss off Zelensky. Zelensky became entitled to a blank check with no strings attached. Now the terms have changed. There are some people who expect dialog to proceed like an HR meeting, and those that find relief in direct and sometimes heated language. To me the meeting felt like a tremendous relief. A resolution will develop, finally.
  • jorblumesea 2y ago
    what? you don't have negotiations in public at a press conference. what is trump negotiating here? terms that Ukraine won't accept? what resolution will come out of this outside of hardening Ukrainian resolve, bolstering Zelensky and getting Europe to fund the war? Trump, the master negotiator /s A shameful, tactless and pre-planned display. it's easy to blame trump and vance but the true losers here are the American people. American soft power is critical to America's economic power.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • castlefreak 2y ago
      I actually agree that it was a planned dressing down for optics sakes but the attempt is to try to get Zelenskyy out of the way for Trump / Putin direct deal to settle Ukraine matter and the success of this strategy will depend on whether the MAGA media hype will drown out the soft power enjoyers in terms of messaging.
    • tonymet 2y ago
      What can europe fund the war with? Even if they can come up with the gold, who are they going to buy the weapons from?
      • acdha 2y ago
        Gold? It’s not the 19th century anymore and if you look at list of arms manufacturers you’ll find a lot of familiar names who take euros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufa...
• ckbishop 2y ago
  It feels like Vance is playing the part of Edith Bolling Galt Wilson in protecting Trump from the 25th amendment (then Article II), but he absolutely sucks at it.
• jorblumesea 2y ago
  whatever you think of Ukraine or Russia, inviting an elected official of a nation under war then spouting off Russian propaganda and berating him in public is shameful. I don't think we've ever seen such non-diplomatic language and grandstanding in the oval office before, in this century at least. Zelensky was invited to get fox news soundbites of Trump and Vance beating up on him. That's it. a sad state of affairs and a scathing indictment about how uneducated the maga base is around world affairs.
• wg0 2y ago
  On a tangent - J.D Vance is lecturing Europe about freedom of speech while AFP is ousted for writing "Gulf of Mexico" as "Gulf of Mexico."
  • ein0p 2y ago
    FYI: you can end up in jail for posting "wrong" things on Facebook in Europe and the UK. And the UK doesn't permit backup encryption. As far as freedom of speech, we have a _considerable_ advantage. In some European countries (including, ironically, Ukraine) you wouldn't even be able to criticize the government the way we do it here in the US.
    • TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
      The only people being jailed in the UK are violent criminals who use racism as a pretext for violence, and peaceful protestors who threaten the profits of fossil fuel companies.
    • libertine 2y ago
      FYI like Nazi stuff, I believe in a lot of European countries doing Nazi salutes to an audience would mean jail time, and rightfully so.
      • trallnag 2y ago
        This this makes Europe less free than the USA. Again, nothing wrong with that. Just leaves a sour taste in my mouth to try to twist facts.
        • libertine 2y ago
          Freedom to promote Nazism and to promote the rehabilitation of Nazis isn't welcomed in Europe. Yes, it might theoretically make Europe less free, and now you have the Twitter guy being a member of the US administration doing Nazi salutes and promoting far right parties. Suddenly Hitler was a victim. Like the disregard for the thousands of young men lost on the D day and to the war, to reach this freedom you're preaching. Yet that doesn't seem to leave any sour taste, go figure. But I have to ask, why you want the freedom for people to be able to promote Nazism?
• lifeisstillgood 2y ago
  I got this weird dissonance - like this was a science from a TV show about the White House, because no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic. Apart from common courtesy, even basic management training says praise in public, criticise in private. Just doing this in front of the world’s media … it’s hard to understand
  • pjc50 2y ago
    The public bullying is intentional.
    • dygd 2y ago
      Very much so. Trump even said it, "This is good TV". What an embarrassment.
      • swat535 2y ago
        And Zelensky ended up apologizing, rather quickly: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1895618072905384351 https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1895618072905384351 The whole thing was just sad to watch. Politics have hit a level of inanity unimaginable..
        • zerocrates 2y ago
          Earlier in the same interview he's explicitly asked if he wants to apologize to Trump and says "no." Possibly a real-time softening but also "sorry for this [situation]" not really being the same as an apology. I wouldn't be very surprised if there was some thaw in relations that comes with an apology, smiling and making nice for the cameras. But I wouldn't be at all surprised at the reverse, particularly considering that Trump tendency to come down in Putin's corner.
        • atoav 2y ago
          Trump should apologize and probably resign while we are at that. But the conservatives want all the good old times without the honor code that existed to some degree back then.
• poszlem 2y ago
  I have never in my entire life seen a better example of the "we have always been at war with Eastasia" phenomenon than the recent US switch from anti- to pro-Russia stance.
• dekoruotas 2y ago
  After this meeting I have no doubts that President Krasnov theory is real.
• hayst4ck 2y ago
  The American government has been compromised by Russia. It no longer represents American interests, but Russian interests. Whether the senior powers in America are compromised, complicit, or opportunist, it doesn't matter. America is being damaged. Russian interests are being prioritized over American interests. Our military is too powerful for direct conflict, so alternative conflict against our political structure and economy is more logical. America is experiencing a decapitation strike, and our military is not defending us from these domestic enemies. https://archive.is/1xkxK https://archive.is/1xkxK (Decapitation Strike -- Timothy Snyder)
  • logicchains 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • OfficeChad 2y ago
      [dead]
    • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      > It represents the interests of the American people who voted for Trump It really doesn't and they'll come to feel it even if they don't recognize it.
      • logicchains 2y ago
        Please elaborate how sending hundreds of billions of dollars to Ukraine is in the interests of the average Trump voter.
        • ceejayoz 2y ago
          We don't actually really do that. The majority of the "funds" pay for products like shells and missiles made by American labor (which encompasses quite a few Trump voters!) in America with American parts and American steel and American know-how. We're donating no-longer-used Bradleys, F-16s, Javelins that are reaching (sometimes past!) their expiration date, etc. https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-ukraine-aid-package-and-what-does-it-mean-future-war https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-ukraine-aid-package-and-w... > The notion of “aid to Ukraine” is a misnomer. Despite images of “pallets of cash” being sent to Ukraine, about 72 percent of this money overall and 86 percent of the military aid will be spent in the United States. The reason for this high percentage is that weapons going to Ukraine are produced in U.S. factories, payments to U.S. service members are mostly spent in the United States, and even some piece of the humanitarian aid is spent in the United States. (As a bonus, we're getting to try out all our stuff against Russia's best, in a way we've never really gotten to. It's an incredible ad for American defense contractors.) If you'd told the old Cold Warriors that a small fraction of a single year's military budget could turn the Russian military into a shadow of its original, they would not have believed you.
• jameslk 2y ago
  The former reality tv star is good at reality tv. What’s usually kept behind closed doors is now out in open, because it makes for great viewership. People gobble this up, which has given the reality tv star endless attention Hacker News has fallen victim to the reality tv star’s antics
  • a_ba 2y ago
    HN didn't fall victim to the reality tv star's antics. The audience he's trying to impress has fallen victim to the believe that the antics of a reality tv star make for a good president.
    • jameslk 2y ago
      Hacker News has most definitely fallen victim to the antics, given how many times said antics have popped up on HN recently and have been flagged. I'm flagging these posts and I will keep flagging them too e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43198759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43198759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43121467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43121467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43110333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43110333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033275 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033275
  • bongodongobob 2y ago
    This isn't just trolling or good TV. It's doing severe and permanent damage to US foreign policy.
    • jameslk 2y ago
      Both can be simultaneously true
  • surfpel 2y ago
    Are you talking about Trump or Zelensky here?
• jbverschoor 2y ago
  We'll see in what way Putin will respect Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if they both want nothing to do with the US anymore.
• racktash 2y ago
  Trump pardoned the January 6th rioters for the benefit of a certain segment of his supporter base. I have a feeling his childish humiliation of Zelensky is more of the same. It's no coincidence he dropped a "World War 3" reference, a common talking point of a certain segment of the online populist right (to be clear, this isn't to say some fear about such a scenario is unjustified; only to point out that it is cynically used to steer the discussion about the Ukrainian in a certain direction). Shame on everyone who continues to be an apologist for this administration. People can make mistakes – I've supported my fair share of dodgy people in the past – but anyone who doesn't see things clearly at this point isn't looking.
  • atemerev 2y ago
    The "certain segment of his supporter base" is now completely managed by Russians in their information / cognitive domain.
    • bashback 2y ago
      [dead]
• picafrost 2y ago
  I find it utterly bizarre that some Americans seem to be under the delusion that the US ceasing its military support for Ukraine will somehow save lives. It is the same kind of delusion that causes President Trump to list off the US presidents under which Putin has disregarded its negotiated deals with, but obviously that would never happen under his watch. I suspect that this exchange will become an infamous moment in history. Utterly shameful.
  • nverno 2y ago
    If the US stops support would the war end? I don't really think so, but maybe. If it did, though, I would guess lives would be saved. That doesn't seem like a delusion.
    • guax 2y ago
      How? If all support for Ukraine crumbles and russia just plows ahead, do you think the ukranian population would be safer? The only "less lives" approach would be if russia retreats in an agreement to keep the previous separatist regions they annexed while accepting some sort of buffer inside Ukraine from them on, which Zelensky would agree in the form of bases or nato membership. Which Russia will never go for.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • tim333 2y ago
    I mean a deal where the fighting stops could save lives.
• labrador 2y ago
  I try to look at actions and not words. Trump/Musk have not shut off Starlink yet, but maybe this manufactured confrontation is a prelude to that? It also seems to me that Europe could adequately support Ukraine in defending itself, so maybe it matters less what America thinks and more what Europe thinks.
  • inemesitaffia 2y ago
    There's people who want all SpaceX contracts terminated. Guess what this does?https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_HC101324F0143_9700_HC101323D9000_9700 https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_HC101324F0143_970...
• adamnemecek 2y ago
  Please donate drones to Ukraine https://www.dronesforukraine.fund/ https://www.dronesforukraine.fund/
  • at0mic22 2y ago
    Great idea! Though we learned the hard way what "dontate to ukraine" means [1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/estonia-biggest-charity-helping-ukraine-161257224.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/estonia-biggest-charity-helping-u...
• thrance 2y ago
  Shame on republicans who voted for Trump. Why are none of you confronting him when he claims insane shit like "Ukraine started the war"? Have you gone full doublethink? Or are you actually just fine with allying with fascist Putin against Ukraine and Europe?
  • gs17 2y ago
    > Why are none of you confronting him when he claims insane shit like "Ukraine started the war"? Unfortunately, many of them have eaten enough propaganda that they agree. I have an uncle who genuinely believes that, even if he can't fully explain how it could make sense.
• matthest 2y ago
  I don't agree with the execution, but here's what I think this is what Trump is really trying to do: Right now, it's basically the US vs Russia and China. But what Trump is betting on is that it could be the US + EU + Russia vs China. In order for this to happen though, the EU must build their own military. The EU could and should be a superpower, but they're not. Instead they're living off the US military. The US has been gently trying to get EU to boost its own spending. This goes as far back as Obama, and maybe even further back. The difference is that Obama was somewhat passive aggressive with his approach. Whereas Trump is tearing off the band aid. The public belligerence and positioning against the EU is an effort to kick them out of the parents' basement and get their act together. Now, what is he doing regarding Canada and Mexico? That I have 0 clue. And his current stance honestly seems stupid.
  • tootie 2y ago
    Handy rule of thumb: Nobody plays 4d chess. Especially with Trump, what you see is what you get. He does not have a complex ulterior motive. He is capitulating to Russia because he thinks it will be better for himself personally.
  • Jtsummers 2y ago
    > But what Trump is betting on is that it could be the US + EU + Russia vs China. This makes no sense when put up against reality. The US is alienating the EU, throwing Ukraine under the bus, alienating NATO (major military alliance) and Five Eyes (major intelligence alliance) just so they can bring Russia in to the fold with the US and EU? How, the US won't be partnered with the EU at this rate.
    • matthest 2y ago
      The bet would be that in the long run (talking 5-10 years down the road after the EU has built their defense), the EU would still be more likely to ally with the US then China. The current administration perhaps thinks that alienating them in the short run is the only way to get them to actually get serious about building military.
    • GMoromisato 2y ago
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• temporallobe 2y ago
  I am an independent and Trump supporter. I generally like his shows of strength, but I didn’t like the confrontational nature of this exchange. It lacked diplomacy and respect. Trump yelling things like “you’re gambling with World War 3” was inappropriate and aggressive, especially considering he was a guest. This caused an unprecedented tension between wrokd leaders on live TV and in my opinion has the potential to spiral out of control. To quote Dean Acheson from Thirteen Days, “Hopefully cooler heads will prevail before we reach the next step.”
  • pjc50 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • graublau 2y ago
      What an ugly thing to say.
      • pjc50 2y ago
        It's a live war with thousands of dead a month. Of course it's ugly.
    • thinkingemote 2y ago
      This type of comment is why users flag submissions. Thankfully there are many other better comments (and the submission itself is unique).
  • pcj-github 2y ago
    I just honestly cannot fathom how you voted for this person and somehow surprised by this. Were you just not paying attention since 2016?
  • JumpinJack_Cash 2y ago
    > > I generally like his shows of strength The US has the nuclear trident, the Ohio ICBMs nuclear submarines, the Gerald Ford Class Carriers, the thousands of Minutemen delivering warheads in 20 minutes or less, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Air Force in the World... All of that, not to mention the soft power precisely in order to avoid having to pull this sort of BS in the oval office The US strenght is the system , not the dude in the expensive house on Penn Avenue with the nice plane. He very rarely adds something but can absolutely throw lots of the systemic effort down the sink
• lovegrenoble 2y ago
  [flagged]
• mhh__ 2y ago
  Today was probably the end of the post- cold-war liberal consensus.
  • GolfPopper 2y ago
    Yeah. I keep thinking that this is going to be analogous to Chamberlain's "Peace with honor" moment in terms of how it sits in the historical narrative in 50 years.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • StefanBatory 2y ago
      Chamberlain had a reason - UK army wasn't really ready for a fight. He tried to buy some time to rearm. Misguided or not, you could say there was a reason for that.
      • GolfPopper 2y ago
        I agree with both you and AnotherGoodName - I should have been clearer. It's not that I think Trump's actions here are equivalent. They are pretty clearly worse in motivation and objective. I just think that we're going to head into a dark time for the world, and that future history books (if 2025-2035 goes roughly like 1935-1945, which I'm starting to think would be a horrific but "better than can reasonably be expected" outcome) that what happened at the White House today will occupy a similar place - a sort of last pretense of diplomacy before the storm, where one of the participants (Hitler in the original, Trump here) was never honestly interested in peace, just what they could gain in the short term via extortion. Not identical situations, but ones that rhyme.
        • mirekrusin 2y ago
          Warren Buffett knows what's cooking.
      • chgs 2y ago
• Ancalagon 2y ago
  Wow this is just so sad and shameful. Zelensky obviously understands the position he and his country are in and even with all that disrespect from the US leadership he’s obviously trying so hard to maintain composure and do what’s best :(
• FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Saw it live, and was legit feeling a panic like, this is the end. Timely. Netflix has series "Turning Point: the Bomb and the Cold War" that is a good watch while the world burns.
  • graublau 2y ago
    Watching Netflix shows is a horrible way of learning about nuances of international conflicts.
    • FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      I think 'nuance' has left the building.
    • bashback 2y ago
      [dead]
• HellDunkel 2y ago
  It should be crystal clear now who the leader of the free world really is.
• rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  That’ll be water for the Russian propaganda. America, what have you chosen. It’s clear you have a Russian insurgent in the White House. They have already started dismantling the government. Next they’ll shake up the military. Every totalitarian regime shakes up the military.
  • jjulius 2y ago
    >Next they’ll shake up the military. "Next?" https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-pushes-out-top-us-general-nominates-retired-three-star-2025-02-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-pushes-out-top-us-gen...
    • rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      I was being sarcastic. I’m sorry, I am trying not to be passive aggressive, exactly in that order.
      • jjulius 2y ago
        Hah, my bad for missing it. ;)
      • unsui 2y ago
        We've crossed the Rubicon, where sarcasm is no longer indistinguishable from reality.
  • rco8786 2y ago
    > Next they’ll shake up the military. https://apnews.com/article/trump-brown-joint-chiefs-of-staff-firing-fa428cc1508a583b3bf5e7a5a58f6acf https://apnews.com/article/trump-brown-joint-chiefs-of-staff...
  • IncreasePosts 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • 2y ago
• rkagerer 2y ago
  Full video of the entire meeting https://youtu.be/um19Mf4dYes https://youtu.be/um19Mf4dYes
  • rkagerer 2y ago
    At 11m40s in it still seemed to be going well... an almost adorable exchange between the two leaders about who gave more EU or US.
  • bdcp 2y ago
    DT: "This is good TV" Wow!
    • fullshark 2y ago
      That stuck out to me too, that's where his head was at...just astonishing.
      • baobabKoodaa 2y ago
        they say i have the best ratings, beautiful ratings, big, huge ratings, and they never talk about that even though our ratings are the best, can you imagine that, they would rather talk about BIDEN, even though biden was the stupidest president, and did nothing for our country, absolutely nothing, a disgrace, really
        • jimt1234 2y ago
          Reminds me of when Trump bragged about the TV ratings for the White House press briefings during Covid, saying the ratings were on par with "The Bachelor" and "Monday Night Football". Ugh. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/trump-brags-about-high-tv-viewership-of-coronavirus-briefings-idUSKBN21G0TQ/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/trump-brags-about-h...
          • baobabKoodaa 2y ago
            Turns out people really tune in when the world is on fire!
• angrytechie 2y ago
  What's really infuriating to me is the way in which members of the startup world -- people who claim to wear the mantle of creators and builders -- have actively supported this nonsense. A16Z, Founders Fund, Sequoia all talk a big game about America being the greatest nation on the planet, and then turn around and back this regime in a naked grab for power and money. The hypocrisy is astounding.
  • pcj-github 2y ago
    Yes, it's completely spineless. For all the intelligence they seem to purport, being complicit in supporting the takedown of democracy and the once good name of the US... Catastrophe for business, the startup world, and innovation. Don't s** where you sleep. And all those crypto bros thinking this would be a good thing... They seemed to forget that blockchain participation is essentially a luxury item. A dead economy is awful for crypto.
  • kibwen 2y ago
    By definition it's not possible for fascists to be hypocrites, because fascists do not use language to describe the world or pursue the truth, they only use language to gain power. If you accuse them of hypocrisy you've already lost, because you've failed to realize that they're not even playing the same game as you are. It's like accusing a Markov chain of being a hypocrite; you have fundamentally misunderstood the nature your opponent.
    • brcmthrowaway 2y ago
      How does one fight a fascist?
      • bashback 2y ago
        [dead]
      • angrytechie 2y ago
        One way is to stop taking their money: https://open.substack.com/pub/angrytechie/p/dont-take-money-from-a16z https://open.substack.com/pub/angrytechie/p/dont-take-money-...
• tlogan 2y ago
  Zelensky needs to step down for the sake of Ukraine and its people. He fails to grasp a critical reality: criticizing Trump is a mistake. Instead, he should focus on praising him—highlighting his intelligence, leadership, and appeal. More importantly, he must recognize that Ukraine’s survival depends on continued US support. Without the US, the country risks ceasing to exist.
  • pcj-github 2y ago
    Zelensky is not responsible for this exchange. Are you honestly suggesting cower to a false autocrat? That is not leadership.
    • beanjuiceII 2y ago
      you can't beg someone to come save you, then shit on them in the same conversation ...in what world would anyone expect a warm reception to that?
      • bashback 2y ago
        [flagged]
  • guax 2y ago
    Thinking like this is what will take the US further into isolation. Everyone wants to engage and help a nice big brother. No one likes a bully, they will nod and agree when required but in the end America last is the main thing going on everyones mind right now. The mere unreliability of the government in keeping a narrative and position from one week to the next much less from one administration to the other is enough to alienate the allies. Count in annexation talks, tariff war as a negotiation gun. If having US help requires kissing the president ass instead of being an ally and sharing of the American ideals, the US as it pretended to be, does not exist anymore.
  • sirolimus 2y ago
    Zelensky has said he will step down if US provides security guarantees. Source: https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/23/europe/ukraine-zelensky-resign-nato-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/23/europe/ukraine-zelensky-resig...
• analognoise 2y ago
  That was the most shameful thing I’ve ever seen as an American. Where is Congress? This needs to stop; impeach Trump already!
  • fullshark 2y ago
    Not gonna happen, the only hope is his approval ratings tank and he decides to chill out, stop trying to be king, play golf for 4 years, and step away beloved by his cult.
• mempko 2y ago
  This is what a falling empire looks like. America First is a project to dismantle the U.S. empire and reduce it to just another country.
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
  • tim333 2y ago
    It looks to me more like a start or an empire. The US has never been imperial but maybe it can get together with Russia and make a start with American West Ukraine, followed by Greenland and Canada?
    • mempko 2y ago
      You don't build an empire by cutting the federal government and reducing the deficit.
• lovegrenoble 2y ago
  Like a misbehaving child called into the principal’s office
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• sgalbincea 2y ago
  Can anyone tell me what the alternative is that would result in less people dying? This needs to stop NOW.
  • Xeamek 2y ago
    So when your country will be attacked you will give up your lands and your freedoms just for sake of "less people dying"?
    • faebi 2y ago
      Absolutely yes
      • Xeamek 2y ago
        Really? Even if that would result with your new living conditions to be literally North Korea style or the worst of islamic terrorist state?
        • castlefreak 2y ago
          Have you spoken to any Moscovites about living standards recently? Like this is so stupid. I would not trade for Russia's brutal treatment of dissidents but we don't exactly have a great record on that front in Western countries…
          • Xeamek 2y ago
            You know what hypothetical question is?
            • aparticulate 2y ago
              [flagged]
              • Xeamek 2y ago
• pcj-github 2y ago
  As an American, I'm disgusted. In my view the only way to solve this is through a complete and utter rejection of all things USA. People of Europe and the world, you can help by immediately stop buying American products, halt any travel plans you might have had here, have your goverments embargo us. Do everything in your power to crush our economy. We need something extreme to make these MAGA folk and the Republicans in power break out of this authoritarian fever dream they are in. I'd rather see this country get sick and vomit what needs to be expelled rather than have it die a slow death from this cancerous group-think that has overtaken half our population.
• beebaween 2y ago
  We don't want WW3. I voted for Kamala and I still DO NOT WANT WW3.
  • ben_w 2y ago
    You can choose to not start it, you can't force others not to — peace needs all parties, war only needs one.
• etwigg 2y ago
  I am sincerely curious what Andreesen and Horowitz believe at the moment.
  • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    This is their government. Vance is their puppet. This is what they wanted. Andreesen's little pseudo-manifesto a couple years back was fairly explicitly taking anti-liberal positions, and some that were outright anti-enlightenment. Not surprising really. We now see an alliance between the tech sector of the US economy and the oil and gas sector. Remember Putin is effectively oil baron/executive, not just the leader of a country.
    • etc-hosts 2y ago
      Andreesen funds Edward Dutton. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Edward_Dutton https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Edward_Dutton
  • tasuki 2y ago
    $$$ probably...
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• miramba 2y ago
  How the mighty have fallen. The 20th century was the american century, the 21st doesn't look like it lately. This is an empire in decline.
  • ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    >This is an empire in decline. "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression" [questionable attribution] As a retired union [IBEW] American, I am happy to see more countries gain footing within our global economy. Respectable competition among a distribution of the powerful keeps any one entity from a monopoly of exploiting the entire world/workers.
• excalibur 2y ago
  On the bright side, the more clearly Trump displays his gross incompetence, the more quickly he will be deposed.
  • fullshark 2y ago
    I think most Americans have already made up their mind on Donald Trump. Nothing will matter until individuals' personal financial situations are affected.
    • mrtesthah 2y ago
      Just wait a month when the jobs report comes out.
• gregwebs 2y ago
  It’s worth watching the full clip to appreciate how this starts with Zelensky undermining the peace process by blaming Russia right after Trump just answered by saying blame isn’t productive and Zelensky did it by directly challenging JD Vance's statement previous to the clip. [1] I would suggest changing the link in the article to the full length video clip because I couldn’t fault someone for assuming that with the current state of US Europe relations that the BBC is biased towards selective editing. Obviously Trump & JD did not handle that well and embarrassed anyone that believes in the value of international diplomacy. For some more backstory on Zelensky's disposition you can listen to Lex Friedman's take. He went to Ukraine to interview him with the only goal of making peace more likely and couldn't get Zelensky to move an inch in that direction during their discussion. He believes that Zelensky is an amazing leader in many respects, but poorly equipped (mentally) to make peace. [2] [1] https://youtu.be/uqOOOR7Kr-s?si=5lbj-fGWTZzYMVwB https://youtu.be/uqOOOR7Kr-s?si=5lbj-fGWTZzYMVwB [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T2EL8hkwGE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T2EL8hkwGE
  • guax 2y ago
    What peace process? This was a minerals deal. No peace was being brokered here. Not even solid assurances. https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/framework-agreement-us-ukraine-developing-critical-minerals-2025-02-26/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/framework-agreement-us... > WHEREAS the United States of America has provided significant financial and material support to Ukraine since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022;
    • gregwebs 2y ago
      It's not being reported on much, but they have moved towards normalizing diplomatic relations and Russia and the US are negotiating the outline of the deal now. Here is a recent video with John Mearsheimer (a foreign policy expert) giving commentary on recent developments. [1] John Mearsheimer was (and still is) completely baffled by the mineral deal which as you point out seems to be a distraction. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1lJBv76J5g&t=15s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1lJBv76J5g&t=15s
• fosh 2y ago
  The Twitter responses to Leon’s post are shocking. I wonder if it’s mostly “folks left on Twitter” or “algorithm changes”
• jmull 2y ago
  Good lord, what an embarrassment. Our president is a foolish and incompetent clown. Obviously those idiots in the White House are provoking this juvenile confrontation as part of a move toward withdrawing US support from Ukraine. But why? It's beyond clear that a resurgent Russia is against our interests, but here we have the President debasing himself and his country to suck up with Putin as if Putin was the leader of a superpower. So it must be a pretty bad reason. I guess we'll eventually find out why, but it may not matter at that point. How stupid and idiotic.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• scop 2y ago
  Well, here come the downvotes, but for anybody who thinks that it is completely believable that Trump is a Russian stooge or is “on Russias side” let me offer this up: - We want peace. Full stop. No more dead men, women, and children. THAT IS THE GOAL. CONTEXT: - Trump armed Ukraine to the teeth in first term, providing lethal aid which previous presidents did not do. He wanted to deter Putin while not also escalating. - Adding Ukraine to NATO is a line in the sand for Putin. How would we feel the US feel if China and Mexico entered a defense agreement and placed Chinese missiles on the US border? Adding Ukraine to Nato is an ESCALATION. - Biden admin sent Kamala over to Europe in '21 saying it was time to add Ukraine to NATO. Good job guys. - Biden then said his response to a potential Putin invasion would "depend on whether it was a major or minor invasion" (I'm generalizing). - Biden then flopped Afghanistan. US weak. - There were rumblings of a peace deal in early 2022, but Boris Johnson and European delegation shot it down. Europe and Ukraine are relying on the US to bankroll/supply a war with one of the world's greatest nuclear threat. THIS ISN'T A FUCKING VIDEO GAME. The lines have been more or less drawn. If we continue this war, we either: (a) at a minimum, drive Russia into closer alliance with China while killing many more Russians and Ukrainians (b) provoke a hot war amongst many nations, leading to the death of millions OR We get a peace deal done with the general boundaries that have been consistent for nearly two years: Russia provinces going to Russia, a DMZ established, and Ukraine sadly smaller. This isn't simply "we must support the Good Guys and defeat the Bad Guys". Right now Trump wants PEACE and feels as if Zelensky demands to call the shots. He can't call the shots. He is not the US. Addendum: Re mineral rights and the accusation "Trump just wants the $$$", you do realize that placing a large US business interest in Ukraine (as opposed to backdoor dealings) is actually a way of strengthening the US's commitment and investment in Ukraine, right?
  • beanjuiceII 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • trgn 2y ago
      ok, yes and no. why does trump need augurs (like scop) to divine a cogent narrative. trump obviously can't and none in his administration can. the simple explanation; trump is spiteful (e.g. all the references to obama, biden), vance a toadie (unreal, the petulance) , and they can only talk in terms of "deals", TV soap opera trash dialogue. zelensky argues that deals need guarantees. all that is in that 10 minute video, for all to see. clear as day. and we've have observed, with the the same clarity, similar displays (maybe of lesser intensity) the last 10 years or so. the 4d chess explanation; scop needs to come along (sorry scop to pull you in!, I like your optimism), and we need to trust there's a deep bench actually acting with any sort of cohesive purpose on that vision. unlike the simple explanation, there's very little evidence. usa foreign policy is untethered now, only thing left to do is reading the flight of the birds. i want to believe, but there is a ton of posthoc rationalizing going on the trump side. it was like this after 2016, a different stable time, after 8 years of blissfully dreadfully boring obama stability. it is not such a time now.
• pillefitz 2y ago
  Dear Americans, please do something. Protest, write letters to congressmen etc. We Germans went through all of this 90 years ago..
  • dimgl 2y ago
    Can you explain how this mirrors what happened in Germany?
    • LightBug1 2y ago
      [flagged]
    • pillefitz 2y ago
      "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. —Martin Niemöller"
  • linguistbreaker 2y ago
    And how did you stop it?
    • nicbou 2y ago
      By giving Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany
  • jimmydoe 2y ago
    It's lost, at least till mid term.
  • soared 2y ago
    Does anyone know what an average citizen can do that will have an impact? I’ve called my reps office in DC before but I don’t know if that does anything.
• namuol 2y ago
  There’s no question in my mind that this went exactly as planned.
  • junto 2y ago
    My feeling too. Now it gives the Trump administration the grounds to claim that they can’t work with this “warmonger” who doesn’t want peace.
    • throwawayq3423 2y ago
      They don't have to pretend anymore when siding with Russia in every conceivable way, not that they have been doing a good job of that anyway.
    • namuol 2y ago
      Vance made it very clear to the rest of the GOP that Zelensky is an “enemy” now. He misleadingly accused Zelensky of “campaigning with the opposition” because he met with Harris before the election. (He met with Trump too) That statement was a direct signal to the party to turn on Zelensky and to make him an object of partisan divide, and Lindsay Graham understood that crystal clearly and called for Zelensky to resign shortly after the meeting, not long after praising him. After sleeping on it, it’s obvious now that this was all to redirect the blame for Trump’s failure to meet his promise to broker peace swiftly.
• fullshark 2y ago
  "This is gonna be great television I will say that." - Donald Trump's last words as the confrontation ended. Just insanity.
  • guax 2y ago
    His disconnection with reality is expected. I would be surprised if he understood or had any empathy to realities he doesn't conceive. The real change was in the GOP allowing and buying in on all of these.
    • fullshark 2y ago
      They told themselves they could contain him, they thought he was like them, cultivating an insincere public persona to accumulate power. He had the juice and the ability to perform jedi magic over their constituents. They rationalized the indefensible to win elections. None of them care about anything except power and leveraging it. Politics ain't bean bag and all of that. It's revealing to anyone actually paying a modicum of attention that isn't blinded by partisan hate.
  • doesnotexist 2y ago
    It's like the inverse of Gil Scott Heron's "The revolution will not be televised" "The Nuclear Holocaust Will Be Televised" There's even a trailer from the Reagan era: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBtu0gr6JqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBtu0gr6JqM But it seems the format is going to be in the style of reality TV shows from 10-20 years ago.
    • selimthegrim 2y ago
      There’s even the CNN tape for the occasion.
• lwansbrough 2y ago
  I'm not sure most Americans will fully appreciate the gravity of this. We don't trust you anymore. We don't trust American self-control. You are becoming an enemy. It genuinely feels like I'm looking at the precursor to a Nazi party.
  • UncleOxidant 2y ago
    As an American I can't blame you. It looks like that from inside as well and it's terrifying because we feel completely powerless - unless we can muster tens of millions to march in the streets in a country the size of ours it won't have any impact. And most people here are still completely apathetic.
    • gre 2y ago
      Best we can manage is an Feb 28 Economic Blackout Day. (Don't forget to stock up the day before!) You didn't know about it? Or you did, and you didn't buy from amazon for a single day? Democracy is saved!
      • bashback 2y ago
        [dead]
• deadbabe 2y ago
  I don’t know what to believe much these days. So instead, I look to see at what actions are being taken instead of endlessly reading news and forums for consensus. And what I see is Europe doesn’t seem to care much if Ukraine falls. The United States, has been supporting Ukraine far more up to this point, and they are not the ones facing the prospect of having Russia in their backyard breathing down their back. So if Europe doesn’t give a fuck, maybe it really means the fall of Ukraine ultimately doesn’t mean much to anyone except the Ukrainian people. The world will move on. This helps keep me calm and prevents me from stressing over most world affairs. And another thing I wonder is what exactly is so bad about Russia anyways? Their leader sucks, but so does ours, and don’t people of both nations just want a good life at the end of the day? How different are they really from us? When I see TikTok interviews of everyday Russians in the streets, they are just like us, similar beliefs about their own country and what is wrong with the world. I understand less and less the source of our conflict.
  • lawn 2y ago
    Maybe if you had instead done some research you'd see that Europe has provided more military aid than the United States. Also, relying on "TikTok interviews" ridiculously naive. You could just as well watch Russia Today and get the same amount of propaganda shoved down your throat.
    • beanjuiceII 2y ago
      if europe has provided more military aid than why do they need united states for this conflict? cant EU and ukraine just resolve this? why did Zelenskyy come to make a deal for the resources?
      • lawn 2y ago
        Because 1.2 + 1.1 means much greater rate of success and less deaths? If you would care about your country, why wouldn't you want as much support as you could get, even if you would have the upper hand? Zelensky wanted security guarantees to further help to defend his country from murder and death. Why is that so strange to you?
• drgo 2y ago
  It is quite clear that Trump does not have the temperament to be a president or a leader of any kind. Clearly, he was venting and has not calculated the consequences of his words to US (and his own) interests. Also clear is the glaring absence of any counterbalancing influences from his cabinet and staff. It is so easy now for this government to make a huge mistake that can cause irreversible damage to the US and the world.
• superq 2y ago
  It's a bit odd that literally every single top comment is pro-Zelenskyy and anti-White House. I haven't seen a single thoughtful critique of Zelenskyy or his behavior on HN; it seems very one-sided and strange. (also interesting that the BBC mispelled his last name, even though they're obviously big fans..)
  • MindTooth 2y ago
    If you have some constructive criticism to share, I’m all ears. Always in search for more views. Especially now where things are upside down.
    • superq 2y ago
      Both sides agree that America has provided at least $100 billion and possibly up to a half-trillion in aid and other consideration to Ukraine. That's a fair bit of money! And, if Zelenskyy is to be believed, it was a "grant", or a gift, which makes Zelenskyy's disrespectful attitude and hubris in the White House even more outrageous.
  • sigmarule 2y ago
    Perhaps this has a similar explanation as the observation that universities and higher education seem to be politically one-sided.
  • soared 2y ago
    Trump and Vance’s behavior seems outrageous for leaders of the US. Zelensky certainly didn’t handle everything perfectly, but in comparison he looks like an actual president.
    • superq 2y ago
      Technically, Zelenskyy instituted martial law and cancelled Ukrainian elections, so although he is the undisputed leader in power in Ukraine, he's not an elected president. Do actual presidents show up in sweatshirts and insult their benefactors?
• Nition 2y ago
  I normally avoid commenting on politics entirely but I feel compelled to comment here. I'm sure anyone who's ever been bullied in their life will feel exactly what's happening in that video clip. Two big kids, confident in their position and backing each other up, gang up on the outsider. Did they ever really want to make a deal at all? Absolutely infuriating and saddening to watch.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • wrs 2y ago
      They don’t seem to realize that.
    • marvin 2y ago
      Nation-state politics often devolves to the level of children on a playground. This was one of those occasions.
      • beretguy 2y ago
        Not always. That third guy, the on the left, behaves himself like a responsible adult should.
      • surfpel 2y ago
        America did used to have real diplomacy, in the sense that there was an active dialogue between diplomats in America and their counterparts abroad. During the unipolar moment, they gave that up. That's beyond dangerous and frankly suicidal.
    • beretguy 2y ago
      Technically, yes, but Nition was just drawing parallels between their behavior and that of children to show how incompetent and immature they are.
    • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
• gambiting 2y ago
  Zelenskyy is an absolute hero. I couldn't be prouder of him in this very moment, to actually speak his mind and demand that the man who claims to be the leader of the free world admits one simple thing - that Putin is a killer. If he can't even do that then it's clear no productive discussion can take place.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I think he did a good job of calmly making his case in the face of Trump/Vances bad behaviour.
• kelseydh 2y ago
  Full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpAj8rRe-p0&ab_channel=PBSNewsHour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpAj8rRe-p0&ab_channel=PBSNe...
• GMoromisato 2y ago
  I would like to know what the alternatives are. None that I can think of are palatable: 1. Support Ukraine enough so that Russia doesn't take too much more territory, but not enough for Russia to feel threatened and escalate the war. This was the Biden plan and it sounds like what Europe wants. I just don't see how this ends the war. Is this just buying time for someone to depose Putin? 2. Support Ukraine enough so it can take all its territory (maybe minus Crimea). This may not be possible with weapons alone. This might require a NATO no-fly zone over Ukraine, which effectively makes us a combatant. I actually would support this path, but the downsides are all too obvious. 3. Freeze the conflict at the current lines and guarantee the agreement with US/NATO forces. What does that mean in practice? If Russia violates the agreement we go to option #2? That sounds like a hollow threat because we're clearly not ready to do #2 right now, when it could actually help. All this will do is let Russia rearm. 4. Abandon Ukraine and make a deal with Russia against China. [This is Trump's plan and it's as stupid as it sounds.] Did I miss anything? The root of the problem is that this is a hard-power conflict and the only solution is going to be hard-power. But neither the US nor the EU are willing to put in hard-power against Russia. In that situation, I honestly don't know how to stop Putin from getting what he wants. My frustration is that, as awful as Trump's plan is, it acknowledges that the only way to beat Russia is to send US troops to fight Russians, and there is no universe in which the US public will support that. But please, correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to be wrong.
  • guax 2y ago
    The goal was always to support Ukraine for long enough to pressure Russia into the negotiation table, the concessions could varied, no one knows. Ukraine knows it cannot get it all, but they know they won't settle for nothing either. We know this given how close even Trump got to having discussions with both parties. His competence was not there to finish any deal and took the worse turn possible.
    • GMoromisato 2y ago
      But if you can't stop Russia from getting some of Ukraine, how do you stop it from getting all of Ukraine? That to me is the key problem. Russia knows that time is on its side. It can just pause enough to rearm and then attack again. What will we do differently then?
• nahuel0x 2y ago
  There are two opposing strategies for the US: - Be aggressive against China allies to weaken them before attacking China (Biden) - Try to be friendlier to China allies so they become US allies or at least neutral (Trump) We are seeing oscillations between those two strategies, because both US factions are playing his cards according to what both see at the end of the tunnel: A new World War with US and China as the main actors, the most probable outcome of imperialism and capitalism crisis. The Trade war is his first act.
• rsyring 2y ago
  I've wholeheartedly disagreed with a lot that past administrations, especially liberal administrations, said and did. But I don't recall ever being so absolutely disgusted by them as I am today. We are currently watching the downfall of the current world order and the US as a bastion of democracy. And I'm not exaggerating. Trump is aligning himself with Russian interests. He even had a Russian state media representative at that meeting. Rome had to fall, I'm sorry I'm living to see it. Trump, you'll never read this, but I need to say it anyway...there aren't words to describe how despicable you are. Tyrant wannabee and greedy coward. You are selling the American soul to cozy up to a murder and rapist. Those who voted for you have no excuse. You were always clear about the kind of man you are.
• ToDougie 2y ago
  Probably told him that since he and his government cannot account for tens of billions of dollars that the US gave them, and that we have evidence that Ukraine is selling arms to Mexican cartels (designated terrorist organizations), that we would no longer tolerate our relationship, as is. Somehow all of the whiny commenters on here forget that DJT's first administration provided considerable CIA/Tier1 training and resources to the Ukrainian military. Then Russia invaded while Biden was president. They didn't invade on Trump's watch. They invaded while Biden was running(?) our country. Now, yet again, Trump has to go clean up the mess -- just like he did after Obama gave Putin the flexibility to invade Ukraine after his win in the 2012 election.
• yakkomajuri 2y ago
  Usually we keep the mainstream news out of here but felt I had to post this one because I've never seen anything like it and was curious to hear other people's perspective here. To me it feels like a setup to look good in front of their audience without any proper desire to engage in true diplomacy.
  • neom 2y ago
    Some of the stuff I've had to deal with building business to $100MM++++++ revenue give me stress and anxiety. I've been through so much shit at this point I think it's hard to stress me out. Watching that interaction between the 3 of them invoked a feeling I've not felt in a very long time, it was incredibly stressful. That was neither politics nor business, personally I'd have accepted either, but that was not those.
    • Buttons840 2y ago
      How many millions of workers endure endless shit and disrespect from their boss, but they get the job done anyway for the benefit of their families? How many business leaders, like you, let slide so much shit and instead focused on what was important for their business? Even if Trump and Vance were disrespected, suck it up like the rest of us and do the thing that benefits the entire country. They met to make a deal to benefit the country; Trump failed to make the deal.
      • Varriount 2y ago
        That assumes that any amount of capitulation would have persuaded Trump to support Ukraine, and that any reasonable deal could have been reached. I obviously can't say what could have been, but every sign Trump (and those in his administration!) has given up to this point indicate that there's only one outcome they support, and that's Ukraine surrendering all or some of its land to Russia, along with a deal barring Ukraine from NATO.
        • Nathanba 2y ago
• danbruc 2y ago
  Most here will not like that opinion, but I think this is essentially a good thing, it will eventually end this war - at huge costs for Ukraine. The fault of the USA is not that they now pressure Ukraine towards ending this war, the fault of the USA was that they did not accept Russia's demand - or at least tried to find an acceptable compromise - for Ukraine not to join NATO which caused this tragedy.
  • kubb 2y ago
    Ukraine is not a member of NATO.
    • danbruc 2y ago
      Who said they are? The official position of NATO was that Ukraine will eventually join NATO while Russia demanded that Ukraine will not join NATO. Contrary to the western mainstream opinion, I think that is why Putin started this war, to prevent Ukraine joining NATO, not to grab some land.
      • kubb 2y ago
        You said it: > the fault of the USA was that they did not accept Russia's demand - or at least tried to find an acceptable compromise - for Ukraine not to join NATO which caused this tragedy The US basically accepted that demand, and Russia still attacked Ukraine. They wanted the land no matter what.
        • danbruc 2y ago
          What do you mean with basically accepted that demand? Give me a source and I will stand corrected. I have stayed away from discussing this war for a long time since the outcome is pretty predictable given my point of view, so I forgot a lot of the details from when I carefully researched the topic. But as far as I remember, there was not hint of willingness to accommodate Russian demands.
          • 2y ago
• phendrenad2 2y ago
  People complaining about politics on HN: Nobody is asking you to read or post here. Make your own HN where politics are strictly forbidden. Good luck.
• omayomay 2y ago
  this meeting will be remembered in ages to be come.
  • guerrilla 2y ago
    You're making the assumption that even more outrageous things aren't coming down the pipeline. I think that's unwarranted. They will continue to escalate.
• waltercool 2y ago
  [dead]
• nrawe 2y ago
  So, watching the video as a brit with a number if Ukrainian friends and colleagues, my first reaction is that this is the Trump Whitehouse looking for a cheap win. However, I think their calculation here speaks to the difficulty of the current situation. Putting aside the morality, sovereign integrity, and such: the situation appears to be entering/in a stalemate. The Ukrainian forces have done well to proactively take and hold Russian territory, and have held the line pretty well. However, there does not seem to be a play here that will conclusively end Russian occupation presently. The best case seems to be waiting out the supply of Russian troops, but the Ukrainian army doesn't have an endless supply of volunteers in this regard (I've worked with a few who have). So the question has to be asked: how does this end decisively if neither side can win outright? And how much support is required to maintain the status quo? I hate to say it, but I think they will likely have to lose territory. I think they could argue for greater security architecture (i.e. part of NATO but no nukes) to prevent repeat. But otherwise I can appreciate why the current administration is where its at. Its a sorry situation all around.
  • liuliu 2y ago
    > I think they could argue for greater security architecture (i.e. part of NATO but no nukes) to prevent repeat. But otherwise I can appreciate why the current administration is where its at. The current administration is redundantly clear that it won't allow Ukraine to join NATO to avoid antagonize Russia.
    • nrawe 2y ago
      Yeah, I think they'll fold on that point, too, but the main stumbling block for Ukraine is that Russian guarantees mean little in a post-2021 invasion context given they made the same overtures after 2014. The idea of the entire country becoming a DMZ just smacks of Putin lining up the next play and a Russian-leaning leader put in Zelenskis place.
    • oezi 2y ago
      Why do they empower a war lord such as Putin? In what universe should the US care about if they offend Russia? Will they put Iran over Israel next?
• Humorist2290 2y ago
  If you're an American and want to vent your frustrations, you could try the US Capitol switchboard (202) 224-3121 . You can contact your senator and ask how they are contributing to the safety and prosperity of Americans, or just human beings in general.
  • gs17 2y ago
    My senators are both strongly in support of this. Bill Hagerty's website's top news story is from yesterday, but it pretty much restates everything Trump said today. And I'm sure I don't need to explain Marsha Blackburn's opinion. Republicans gerrymandered the state, so the Representative in the House is about the same. Unless I suddenly win the lottery, I don't think they're interested in hearing my opinion.
    • lostdog 2y ago
      They notice when lots of constituents call in all at once. At least you have a congressperson on the wrong side of this who is worth pressuring. I am very tired of making calls that just say "I know you say you're on the right side of this, but will you please try to do anything?"
  • koonsolo 2y ago
    Just protest on the streets already!
    • horns4lyfe 2y ago
      [flagged]
  • GuinansEyebrows 2y ago
    i've been thinking a lot about this lately. how do we move from asking rhetorical questions of elected leaders into actually compelling them to act on our behalf? there's little to no connection between public will and its representation.
• lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Trump with his bluffs and attacks operates within crumple zone of US and even of the western world but this crumple zone slowly starts giving up. Inside his head he thinks he is genius with ideas like taking over Greenland, depopulating Gaza, capturing Ukrainian resources or that Putin treats him seriously. Fact is EU has been asleep at the wheel for the last decade doing even counter productive moves like Brexit and Nord Stream, or ridiculous things like attaching bottle caps to the bottle, while corruption in Ukraine has been continuously enormous to the point they run out of money and people. Honestly, it all looks rather bleak and elites of many EU countries are ready to eject to Dubai (as Russian and Ukrainian ones have already done).
• varispeed 2y ago
  Russia probably has strong kompromats on Trump and his administration. Can't explain it any other way. Why otherwise they would go out of the way to make idiots of themselves in public in front of the whole world? I know Trump has not been an example of tact but this is something else.
  • Glyptodon 2y ago
    I totally think the people saying that KGB has video or photos or whatever from the late '80s of him sleeping with KGB agent/call girls or similar are plausible. But I have a really hard time imagining Trump being embarrassed by anything like that. He'd be like "Of course I slept with beautiful women! who wouldn't?" I'd love to have some idea of what they could actually have that he'd be ashamed of, but he's so shameless it's hard for me to imagine. Which makes me more inclined to think that he just hasn't met a dictator that he's not jealous of more so than anything.
    • fransje26 2y ago
      Maybe they weren't adults...
      • mafuy 2y ago
        Apparently he raped a 13 year old under Epstein care. Though I don't think he would be embarrassed by that. He'd just call it fake news and move on.
    • drawkward 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • pnut 2y ago
        Trump has no shame, he doesn't care. He's a super fan of what Putin's achieved in Russia, president for life, absolute control of the political machine for personal gain, and respects his version of the how the world works above all.
• AlexatParis 2y ago
  I am born in Ukraine and live now in Europe. As European I may understand your disappointment with the West letting down some "rules based" order and democratic values. Yet as Ukrainian, I know unfortunately that the premises of the "rules based world" do not apply to many regions in the world, inclusive Ukraine. Let me explain, a rule-based order means that the monopoly of violence is the privilege of the state: if a bad guy annoys, you get them arrested by the police and sued by the justice. In international relations, the cop was the US. But if you live in a region where US cannot or just doesn't want to play the cop (for the seek of is interests : think to Saudi Arabia..) then you finish up in a 'violent world' where the order comes from the violence and power. If you accept that such regions exist, you become a realist (see mersheimer) And if you are realist, you do not understand why Zelensky has sacrificed 1million people while another strategy would have been more suited: accept the neutrality, play the economic development, play the cultural development (remeber that economy and culture are the weak parts of Putin's policy) and gain margins of independence step by step.
  • jimmydoe 2y ago
    Zelensky is just one person, rest of the Ukraine govt will play realists
  • empiricus 2y ago
    What do you think Putin will do in year after a peace? What do you think Putin will do after taking over Ukraine? This is also a form of realism, to think what will happen in the future.
    • AlexatParis 2y ago
      yet how do you defeat him right now ? if western stocks are completely depleted, and in the battlefield Ukraine (with all help of western countries) has 1 to 5 or 10 ratio of ballistic to Ukraine / China. Acknowledging this basic fact hurts to the ego but may save millions of lifes. Acknowledging this fact makes you think to your sole remaining strategy: separate Putin from Xi and gain time to enhance your military industry. Acknowledging this fact does not make you pro-Putin as you still prefer a democratic world. Of course, you will not be very successful in meetings. You can afford such non sense when you have no skin in the game. But if the lifes of your cousin is at stake, you think in a real world with real terms, what to do to spare your population !
• VeejayRampay 2y ago
  absolute display of debased cowardice if you're american and you're able to watch the video without feeling either ashamed or revolted, know that absolutely no one in the world respects the cloth you're cut from, except for the the worst dictators and their lackeys
• black_puppydog 2y ago
  Dear god we need to stop producing Foundation-style and other imperialist sci-fi TV. Clearly Trump and his crew are way too convinced they're emperors. Next up I guess: cruel and unusual punishments for political enemies. :|
• gtsop 2y ago
  The funniest thing about all this is the absurd joke that Trump is compromised by Russia. A clearly populist and baseless propaganda to wash off the cold self-interested policies that America always (obviously) shoved down the throats of it's allies and enemies. The inability to see how this policy benefits usa (by giving an end to a dead-end spend to a lost war, claim some losses, attempt to not go head to head with russia since china is the biggest fish to deal with right now) is trully laughable. I know the downvotes are going to come raining, i don't care.
  • rpmisms 2y ago
    Realpolitik is not a skill common among engineers. I won't begrudge anyone their outrage.
    • surfpel 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • BrickFingers 2y ago
        I feel the same way. The in-depth and nuanced discussions are what drew me to HN in the first place. You can still find it on purely technical posts, but anything remotely political and it feels like Reddit. I used to come to HN to learn about different viewpoints and find blindspots. But, that is no longer the case here with anything political. The majority of comments on political posts here are skin deep and anything against the grain gets silenced.
        • rpmisms 2y ago
          Intelligence is not domain specific. Training is.
  • jimbohn 2y ago
    This was the investment of the century for the USA. Send old garbage and help with intelligence to weaken a historical enemy, revive NATO, and acquire knowledge on the frontier of warfare. The joke is on the USA, sadly.
• sys_64738 2y ago
  I've never felt this embarrassed to be an American in recent years. To all our foreign friends in computing, the majority of people in the US are not caricatures of POTUS and his sock puppet sidekick.
  • B1FF_PSUVM 2y ago
    Should have felt embarrassed about Nuland and Blinken. This is the fall-out.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      It's actually possible to be embarassed for both.
  • brickfaced 2y ago
    You don't speak for all or even most Americans. A majority of US voters selected Donald Trump as their President. I'm pleased with the President's pushback on the disrespectful, high-pressure bargaining tactics Zelensky tried to use today in front of the press at the White House.
    • insane_dreamer 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • dang 2y ago
        Please don't do this here.
        • lif 2y ago
          Dang, thanks for stepping in here, and as always, for the unseen work you do behind the scenes keeping the trolls at bay. Regarding political posts since inauguration, can you explain this, because I am flumoxed: - on the one hand, there's been a huge surge in clamoring about posts critical of the new administration being flagged - on the other hand, when such posts have not been flagged, they have consistently and overwhelmingly been dominated by one-sided comments critical of the new administration, while the vast majority of counterargument comments become greyed out, and quite quickly. - a large portion of that one-sided piling on shows utter disregard for the HN guidelines, esp.: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." I grew up in East Germany, fwiw. The things I have pointed out here remind me more of the bad old days there than the spirit of independent inquiry, individualism and fairness that I associate with the best of America.
• whalesalad 2y ago
  That meeting is one of the most infurating things I have ever witnessed. We are 100% cooked.
• damion6 2y ago
  Just a bad seed Trump is
• at0mic22 2y ago
  Can we get downvoted comments look regularly and not faded completely out? Silencing people cause their opinion is not popular seems very redditish
  • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Agree. This graying out thing is a terrible design for contentious topics, and isn’t conducive to curious conversations.
  • tim333 2y ago
    You can always click the 'hours ago' thing on greyed comments to read them.
• nxm 2y ago
  It should be noted that Biden lost temper with Zelenskyy in late 2022 after pledging more, Zelenskyy started to complain about to getting even more
• sirolimus 2y ago
  Trump, Musk and Vance are a disgrace. I hope democrats turn this around. Europe stands with Ukraine
• ugjka 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • wilg 2y ago
    biden ran on that, did a good job, and was demolished for it
    • anigbrowl 2y ago
      He didn't help himself by appearing to stroke out during the debates. good on policy in many respects, bad communicator, bad strategist.
• TheAlchemist 2y ago
  One more, somewhat important, detail that's also very telling about where the US administration is heading. Reuters and Associated Press were barred from Oval Office during this meeting, but a Russian state news agency TASS reporter was allowed - into the Oval Office. Wake up America before it's too late.
  • rsyring 2y ago
    There are plenty of us who are awake. But lots of the voting public wanted this man in office. And they are getting what they wanted, apparently, b/c he was clear about who he is and what he was going to do. We'll have at least two years of this. One can hope 2026 will see a massive tide turn in congress and the Senate and maybe Trump will be impeached. But, it doesn't seem likely, and even if it happened, they can't impeach his entire administration so not sure how much can really change until 2028.
    • surfpel 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • dang 2y ago
        You posted this 24 times. That's abusive. Please stop now. Also, we ban accounts that cross into name-calling and personal attack, so please stop that too, regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
          Out of curiosity, why is posting the same link repeatedly abusive? This is a long discussion, and I can see some particular information being relevant in many different conversations that are taking place here. In a discussion with only a few comments it would be easy to scan the entire list of comments for interesting information. But I feel like in such a large discussion where everything is drowned out, sharing the same link repeatedly in different places (if relevant to each of those sub discussions) isn’t so bad?
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• akmarinov 2y ago
  So at this point obviously the US pulls all support from Ukraine - weapons, intelligence, the works. Any negotiations US-Russia will be useless as the US won’t represent anyone with a stake in the war. They don’t have people, territory, anything at stake, they don’t get refugees and generally aren’t directly affected in any way. What are the chances that they just leave Ukraine, Europe and Russia alone from now on and leave them to sort it out on their own?
  • GenerocUsername 2y ago
    Despite all the rage in these comments, the base of the right largely views this as best possible outcome.
    • redmajor12 2y ago
      Supporting peace?! That's a right wing cause now?
      • wilg 2y ago
        [flagged]
        • Cornbilly 2y ago
          Well, you just nailed why this line works on voters. Here’s the other one that works on that same crowd: “We need to fix the budget to close the deficit. We’re going to leave spending basically unchanged and cut taxes for the rich.”
      • jandrese 2y ago
        Supporting peace via the 2025 version of the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact? It is very important for future world peace that Russia not be successful in this war.
        • tdb7893 2y ago
          You don't even have to go back to WWII, we let Russia take part of Ukraine in 2014 and look how that worked out. The idea that letting other countries annex parts of their neighbors is a recipe for lasting peace would be laughable if I didn't see it so often. It's like Charlie Brown and the football every time: https://imgflip.com/i/9lvwwu https://imgflip.com/i/9lvwwu
• gattr 2y ago
  On the one hand, I'm pretty sure Zelenskyy has had similar exchanges with Biden and the members of his administration in the past few years. And I understand (I think) the realities here: the US isn't doing anything out of the goodness of its heart; Putin's idiotic "short victorious war" blunder presented a nice opportunity to weaken Russia via a proxy war, no decisive military/materiel support was given, just enough to keep Ukraine going, etc. But FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, these dealings and bickering are supposed to happen behind closed doors! You give the public just the bland courtesies and assurances! The US president and vice president have come across as impulsive 4-year-olds throwing toys out of a sandbox. I used to think that the novel "The 2020 Commission Report on the North Korean Nuclear Attacks Against the United States" ([1]), which ridicules Donald Trump quite a bit, was overdoing it for humor. Now I'm not so sure. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_2020_Commission_Report_on_the_North_Korean_Nuclear_Attacks_Against_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_2020_Commission_Report_on_...
  • selimthegrim 2y ago
    For a second I thought this was by Chuck Tingle rather than Arms Control Wonk
  • locallost 2y ago
    That's difficult to do when Trump still thinks he's on reality tv.
• EcommerceFlow 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • GenerocUsername 2y ago
    Thank you. Agree. This post only makes me like HN less.
    • topherpalmtree 2y ago
      Your feelings don't matter.
• dworkr 2y ago
  Zalensky is right. Russia started it, if we have to destroy the planet with nukes and kill every single European of fighting age, we can never, must never, surender to Putin. And think of the great innovations in murderous drones we will get out of an ongoing multi-decade prixy war, all that ingenuity and Ukranian expertise in killing can be ours for very, very low cost! Beginning to wonder about Trump's priorities.
• alberth 2y ago
  Can someone ELI5 the facts & dynamics at play - without taking a side in this topic? Seems like POTUS feels used / manipulated, but how & why? Zelensky seems to disagree with some apparent proposed plan, but what is the plan & why does he disagree?
  • nikodotio 2y ago
    Not make it political… you’re joking right?
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • alberth 2y ago
      An 85-min video wasn't exactly what I was looking for :) But appreciate you sharing.
      • surfpel 2y ago
        It's WELL worth it in my opinion :) Cheers!
        • celsoazevedo 2y ago
          It's good to be exposed to different views, but that guy takes the point he's trying to make too far. He blames everyone but Russia for the war Russia decided to start in 2014 and expand in 2022. Russia invaded Ukraine. Not the US, not NATO, not the EU. It was Russia. It was their decision. It's very important to remember who did what.
          • surfpel 2y ago
            I didn't believe it for a while and frankly the situation our leaders put us in is gut wrenching. Here's a leaked call of Victoria Nuland, secretary of state, picking the next leader of Ukraine. I also added a link to Kissinger discussing this issue 30 years ago. These demonstrate that this expansionism is real, Ukraine is not truly sovereign, and Russia was forced into a horrendous position where they have to decide between a humanitarian crisis now, or potentially a much bigger humanitarian crisis down the line if all NATO member states engage in war with Russia, a large Nuclear power. Many blame NATO/USAID/CIA for creating this situation over many decades, even though they knew it would come to this. Nuland call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE Kissinger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHm_7T7QNl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHm_7T7QNl8 P.S. I should say that I also hate Putin for being a murderous oligarch, so take that however you will. But let's be real, he's been warning against this for decades.
• DrNosferatu 2y ago
  Didn’t a Trump call with the Danish prime minister also end like that?
• brickfaced 2y ago
  All President Zelensky had to do was say "thanks for your support" and have the hard conversations behind closed doors. Instead he tried to use high-pressure negotiating tactics in front of the cameras, on Donald Trump of all people. This was clearly a mistake, and now his diplomatic incompetence and lack of basic gratitude and respect will cost Zelensky and his country dearly.
  • nxm 2y ago
    He did the same to Biden privately: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna54592 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna54592
  • cynicalpeace 2y ago
    Absolutely correct, huge blunder on Zelensky's part, even though many here are angry with Trump
  • otterley 2y ago
    If you can’t tolerate emotional and tactical appeals from a foreign leader for support in a public meeting without falling apart and castigating them, you’re probably not fit to lead our country. This sort of behavior doesn’t befit a parent or even a middle manager, let alone the leader of the free world.
• StefanBatory 2y ago
  I'm afraid of USA by now. That one day they will sever ties with Europe, I expected. But not becoming an actively hostile state. I am left wondering - how long it will take until Americans start openly supporting Russia and China? When I was younger, anti-American people were a source of jokes for me. Being a Pole, why would anyone be against our ally? Well, now I see. And it's painful to say that, but I'm starting to see Americans as people in very negative light. Perhaps you were hated in the rest of the world for a reason.
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• markus_zhang 2y ago
  It's sad to be smaller countries.
• cynicalpeace 2y ago
  A lot of people here are angry with Trump about this. But if you watch the full meeting, it's clear Zelensky could have avoided this fiasco. Just the facts: 1. Zelensky did indeed say thank you, at the beginning of the conference. 2. Zelensky made faces at various points of the initial questions. Mostly in frustration with reporters but also in frustration with Trump 3. Zelensky shook his head when Trump started making some remark he disagreed with. A reporter even followed up on him shaking his head. This was the preamble to the bigger argument. 4. Finally, Zelensky asked Vance a provocative question "what kind of diplomacy are you talking about?" which started the shouting match. Zelensky and this administration simply do not want the same thing. This kind of altercation was probably inevitable in some fashion, but it should've been done in private. Zelensky now gives no chance for the administration to even save face if they do decide to help more.
  • Rapzid 2y ago
    Avoided what exactly? If the emperor wants to show the world he has no clothes, why stop him? They've been "negotiating" with Ukraine's invader behind Ukraine's back. Concocting mineral right "deals" that they believe Ukraine _must_ accept; without their involvement and without security guarantees. Voting "against" them in the UN. Making false statements about who invaded who. Etc. And he's gonna not, rather politely, push back and ask questions instead of getting steamrolled? They started this off with Brian Glenn grilling him over his lack of suite and accusing him of disrespect while they snickered and sneered. Let's not forgot that those "jokes", and this entire presser, are in the context of an ongoing war with nearly 1,000,000 dead and wounded now. If anything I think Zelensky smoked them out for all of the US public and Europe to see. Why would he avoid that?!
    • cynicalpeace 2y ago
      Because he didn't get what he wanted, which is money and security guarantees. Zelensky and his team wanted this minerals deal to happen because they saw it as a step towards getting Americans on their frontier, which would act as a shield against Russia. He even wanted to come back to the White House after the fiasco. Trump says no.
• topherpalmtree 2y ago
  The US walks alone now. Vulnerable and weak.
  • bilbo0s 2y ago
    Alone? Maybe. Vulnerable and weak? Um, anyone who believes this is just not engaging in dispassionate analysis of the situation. We are a lot of not so good things. Weak is not one of them.
    • topherpalmtree 2y ago
      Any nation alone in a world of nations with strong alliances is weak.
      • throwawayq3423 2y ago
        Exactly. Right wingers fundamentally misunderstand the source of American power. China might have a bigger navy that the US, very soon. Russia has more nukes. But those countries don't have voluntary military alliances. The US had (past tense) the largest and most effective set of voluntary military alliances in the world, and that was the heart of American power that Donald Trump is dismantling. The why is an interesting question. I personally don't believe it's all ideology and idiocy. There has to be a level of compromise.
      • buzzerbetrayed 2y ago
        The US isn’t alone though. Again, dispassionate analysis.
        • locallost 2y ago
          It is increasingly alone, by its own choice.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• arjunaaqa 2y ago
  Strange to see people supporting Zelensky here. He has lots of history proving he is no innocent man. He comes from theatre background, so he loves doing theatrics. He is cause of this public infighting. Look at full interview please. - He is president of one of most corrupt countries, don’t think him as a saint. - Look at reactions of his own ambassador, you will understand why she is disgusted. - Trump is a straightforward man. Zelensky very well knew terms of deal before he flew to Washington. But he came because this drama is what he wanted, for his selfish and sponsored agenda. This will not end well for him. Ukrainians need a different leadership.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • vardump 2y ago
      > Note the date on that video. Seems to be 2 years after Russia first attacked in 2014. Why does that matter?
      • surfpel 2y ago
        [flagged]
        • deleted 2y ago
          [deleted]
  • bendigedig 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • csa 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • trymas 2y ago
    How your angle of criticism doesn’t apply to Trump? Felon. Crypto grifter (selling corruption out in the open?). Known adulterer. TV personality - so he “makes good TV” when in front of cameras. Whole world thought Ukraine will fall in 3 days (just like Putin). Zelenski asked for “bullets and not evacuation”. He stood his ground, united the nation, with kremlin’s assassins trying to constantly get him and he still visits soldiers on the front line regularly. Trump and JD are scared for their lives to even visit Kyiv.
• captainkrtek 2y ago
  Absolutely heartbreaking. How many of the people arguing have seen any footage of the atrocities committed by Russia. It is sobering to see women and children shelled in their homes and hospitals. 20 Days in Mariupol is free to watch on Youtube (Won the Academy Award for Best Documentary last year): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • captainkrtek 2y ago
      The video in reference you've provided does not show video evidence of your claims. I do agree the west, politics, and complex history between nations are obviously at play as to how the war came about, but that does not negate the atrocities committed by Russia.
      • surfpel 2y ago
        [flagged]
  • Uninen 2y ago
    Haven't seen that documentaty but unfortunately it seems to be geoblocked in Finland :(
    • PokemonNoGo 2y ago
      I know some SVT stuff work in Finland maybe you can watch it here: https://kunskapskanalen.se/program/dox-20-dagar-i-mariupol https://kunskapskanalen.se/program/dox-20-dagar-i-mariupol Edit: mate it is on YLE? https://arenan.yle.fi/1-67287489 https://arenan.yle.fi/1-67287489
  • mxschumacher 2y ago
    also blocked in France
• eunos 2y ago
  Ultimately what should be inferred is that Liberal idealism is receding or even gone. It's all pure raw quid pro quo from now on.
• Animats 2y ago
  On the minerals front, the US doesn't need anything from Ukraine. Most of the minerals mentioned, except titanium, are un-mined deposits. Or things the US has plenty of already, such as oil, natural gas, coal, and iron. Here's a rundown: - Rare earths: I've mentioned the MP Minerals, Mountain Pass, CA mine before. The US doesn't have enough rare earth refining capability, and China won't export the technology. So US ore goes to China for processing. Or did, until DoD paid for a separation plant at Mountain Pass. That problem is close to being solved. That new separation plant is running. A plant for the final step, making magnet-ready metal, has been built in Texas, again by MP Minerals, and it's about ready to open. What's happened with rare earths is not that they're rare. It's that China undercut US prices so much that the Mountain Pass mine went bankrupt. Twice. In 2015, there was a rare earths glut. Look at WSJ rare earths articles back to 2011. There are large un-mined rare earth deposits in Colorado and Wyoming, with startups talking about mining them. Whether this makes economic sense is unclear. If all those start up, the price will crash again and they all go bust. Three years ago, the US rare earths situation looked bad. Not today. - Uranium The US has plenty of uranium resources. Canada and the US are historically the biggest producers. - Titanium Titanium ore has supposedly been discovered in Tennessee. See https://iperionx.com/ https://iperionx.com/ Are those guys for real? Not clear. - Lithium The US produces about 75% of the lithium it uses. New deposits have been found in Arkansas: https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/unlocking-arkansas-hidden-treasure-usgs-uses-machine-learning-show-large https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/unlocking-ar... And in Nevada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCWeZiVsotc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCWeZiVsotc - Graphite China is the leading producer, but Canada and Norway are ramping up. There hasn't been US production of natural graphite since the 1950s. US production of synthetic graphite satisfies most US demand. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/pp1802J https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/pp1802J) Several new synthetic graphite plants are being built in the US. As we've seen in rare earths, when the cheaper sources raise their prices, domestic production increases. It seems to take about three to five years to get a big mining operation going. Quietly, during the previous administration, there was funding for US mineral projects in rare earths, graphite, and lithium. It's no secret, but most coverage is from sites that cover mining and minerals.
  • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
• neilv 2y ago
  This is important and horrifying, and the BBC live coverage was one outrage after another. But HN is still feeling the previous few days of HN outrages (which involve tech). Are we going to have outrage fatigue, and let even more injustices slide? How do we manage that, and what is HN's place?
• basisword 2y ago
  If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of Jan 6th and multiple indictments against him - there's no reason to believe the next person they vote in won't be worse.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • twism 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • surfpel 2y ago
        [flagged]
        • mmastrac 2y ago
          Please stop spamming the thread with the same youtube links over and over.
  • casenmgreen 2y ago
    Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence. You can't force people, you can't trick people. I may be wrong, but I think enough voters were deceived by Donald that the election was no longer well-informed. That's how he got into power. To the extent that's true, USA no longer had genuine elections.
    • imcritic 2y ago
      Riiight. Just when someone you don't like gets elected as a president - you instantly claim that that country isn't democratic anymore.
• iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
  Eh. A lot will disagree with what I am about to type and, tbh, I am hesitant to point out the obvious, but I will do this just in case: 1. None of it should be a surprise. Policy-wise, Trump's position was very much well known at this point. 2. For Zelensky, this is actually the least bad political option at this point, which is presumably why is doing it this way 3. Note the amount of astroturfing surrounding anything related to Ukraine. It used to be that you couldn't comment on anything about Ukraine without being given 'you talk like Ukraine has no autonomy' speech. Yes. On HN too. 4. To all the hyperbolic, hyperventilating accounts out there, please stop. You are not helping your cause. If anything, you are making it worse.
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• bg24 2y ago
  I find it difficult to comprehend if the billionaires do not know this. That if the Government slowly turns into an oligarchy with their help, the Government will eventually turns against them too. They cannot escape the punishment. Humans (our leaders) have behavior that shows up when under stress or things do not go per their plan. Other countries are already noticing this about USA leaders and will not hesitate to exploit. My prediction for the future, with a heavy heart. - Feb/2026: China becomes #1 in technological progress. And America's relationship with former allies is irreversibly bad. - 2027-29: Russia continues to pamper President Trump for another term. Their goal is to create anarchy in America. They succeed.
• ericzawo 2y ago
  Sitting US president siding with the RF. Truly unbelievable times.
• biomcgary 2y ago
  George Washington's farewell address (1796) - on Europe: The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities. Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel. Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?
  • guax 2y ago
    He did not live through two world wars and the invention of ICBMs. His views might have shifted a bit.
  • bongodongobob 2y ago
    Enough with the founding fathers. They are ancient relics. They may as well have lived on another planet.
    • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      It's always noble quotes from them, too, like they're saints. Untouchable. And never the parts about keeping slavery or exterminating indigenous people or conquering Canada, etc being legitimate causes.
• yobid20 2y ago
  The people of the US do not stand behind trump. Trump's word is not the word of the American people. Zelensky might not have Trump's support, but know that he does have overwhelming support from pretty much everyone else aside from the Trump clan.
• zfg 2y ago
  Russia and China used to think they needed to beat America. Then they hoped America would beat itself. But I bet they never expected America to turn into an ally.
  • gre 2y ago
    What's wrong with being allies? Authoritarian countries unite!
  • MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
    I always thought that Russia should join NATO. Stop with all the flirting.
• rllearneratwork 2y ago
  This is a time to boycott all of the president's Elon enterprises. I just cancelled my Tesla solar installation in California. If you are thinking about buying a Tesla - don't. Also do not vandalize other peoples' Tesla. If you are thinking about working in AI for x.ai or Tesla - do not. This will not look pretty on your resume.
  • UncleOxidant 2y ago
    I took a look at the mutual funds in my IRA last night. Most of the market index ones hold a lot of TSLA - it seemed to be in the top 5 holdings of several of the ones I have (had). I put in sell orders last night. Not just because TSLA, but because of all the chaos this administration is causing re tariffs and everything else. I'll hide out in treasury money market fund for a while.
• bvan 2y ago
  Trump, and his posse of minions, are just not equipped to deal with real-world events and threats. What a disgrace.
• tetrisgm 2y ago
  I’m not familiar with this type of masterful deal making.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
• dave333 2y ago
  Zelensky should have asked Trump if he (Zelensky) need only lick Trump's boots or should he lick Vance's boots also.
• reverendsteveii 2y ago
  This was a setup. It wasn't meant to be a meeting where policy is negotiated, it was an attempt bully Zelensky into agreeing to a bunch of pro-Russian falsehoods in hopes that he'd get something from the US. Good on him for realizing that Ukraine will get nothing from our compromised government, pushing back against false narratives and not hurting his cause trying to pursue a "compromise" just like the one that Ukraine got in 2015 that Russia reneg'd on almost immediately.
  • grandpoobah 2y ago
    If we're going down the conspiracy theory route, is it not equally plausible that this was a setup by Zelinsky?
    • bashback 2y ago
      No, because Zelenskyy is a president whose country has been invaded, and Trump is a bully who craves power. These two men are not equivalent, and if you can't see that, then you are beyond help.
      • grandpoobah 2y ago
        Your account is 1 hour old, your opinion is invalid.
    • reverendsteveii 2y ago
      "Alice, schedule a meeting for me. At the white house. I'm gonna get Trump and Vance."
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• croes 2y ago
  I guess tomorrow Trump calls Zelensky a dictator again.
• epolanski 2y ago
  I see many, understandably, comments that empathise with president Zelenski. It is though to come to such meetings when the other party (the Trump administration) genuinely does neither care nor likes you. That being said, I'm gonna point out Zelenski himself. 1) You can't be sitting in the oval office and tell the president of one of the most belligerent and bloodiest countries in the world "you cannot understand how it is to defend yourself, you're surrounded by oceans on both sides". If there is one thing that you should never, ever do, is question America's willingness to pick a fight. That was what triggered hugely Trump (go check the video). That was a terrible mistake, directed to the bulliest president of the bulliest country in the planet, a gigantic blunder on its part. 2) I feel for Zelenski, but after what happened today, his political career is over, that's what pundits and political analysts all over eastern Europe are saying (they are much more critical of Zelenski's naivety than Trump's behavior). Former prime minister of Poland Leszek Miller has been very critical and said Zelenski came very unprepared and leaves in a worse position. He quits the White House in a critical situation and if Ukraine wants to get some kind of leverage it will have to necessarily consider a change of leadership. Zelenski's stance has been terrific in the first years of war, but now he's alone and unable to get most of what he can for Ukraine.
  • croes 2y ago
    > If there is one thing that you should never, ever do, is question America's willingness to peak a fight. But the choose to fight and it’s not on their home ground. Totally different situation. You can’t just leave if you begin to lose like in Vietnam and Afghanistan. They never faced the win or lose everything situation since their independence.
    • epolanski 2y ago
      But you don't go say it to the US President, least of all Trump, in front of cameras!
      • whilenot-dev 2y ago
        You're taken "you're surrounded by oceans on both sides" the wrong way. Zelensky was quoting Trump from just minutes before, where he himself said something along the lines of "we're going to be fine, there's an ocean between us and europe. no matter what happens, we're going to be fine". How do you justify saying something that irresponsible to a leader of an allied nation that is currently defending itself against an autocrat invasion?
• josefritzishere 2y ago
  Embarrassing buffoonery. I never thought I'd pine for the days of bureaucratic but stately presidents.
• gsibble 2y ago
  [flagged]
• xyst 2y ago
  Yet another reason to be embarrassed as an American.
• xg15 2y ago
  I read on a pro-russian site that if there is a strategy behind it, it might be to break Russia out of the China/BRICS alliance and use them as an ally against the "real" enemy, which would be China. It would make some kind of sense and match the rhetoric of a lot of republicans - but on the other hand, it also sounds awfully risky especially if the plan is more or less known to anyone?
  • topherpalmtree 2y ago
    Whoever thinks that Russia will ever consider the US as an ally probably doesn't have a great sense of how Russia views itself and the US. They'll play the part of ally, to a limited degree, when their stooges in Western Democracies don't have any demands of them. But no amount of trade will change their priorities as far as diminishing the dollar with something they at least partially control.
  • kelnos 2y ago
    That seems somewhat laughable? Pro-Russian folks who are grasping at straws to spin what's happening so it doesn't look so bad? I can't imagine Putin allowing his country to be "used" like that (regardless of how desperate his situation gets), especially considering that China is literally next door and would absolutely destroy Russia in any kind of military conflict.
  • dralley 2y ago
    Didn't work for Clinton, didn't work for Bush, didn't work for Obama, won't work for Trump. This is the siren's song of Western Geopolitics. Believing that it will work This Time (tm) is a surefire way to get wrecked. Russia borders China, unlike the rest of The West. Why would Russia ever sign up to put themselves on the front lines of tensions between the West and China. But people delude themselves into believing that they will, because it would be very convenient.
  • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    The Russian people are victimized by the kleptocratic petro-regime in charge, and the American people will be victimized the same. It's best not to see these as the actions of governments acting in national interests, but as a section of an trans-national class acting in their own interest. With borders and statecraft being some of the pieces on the board they play with. Lines between countries are for schmoes like you and I. Trump owns capital and etc assets around the whole world, just like Putin.
• trackone 2y ago
  Things like this make it seem like China will be much more likely to try and retake Taiwan soon. Seeing things like this, it is hard to imagine that the US will help defend Taiwan by providing military aid. I can imagine that trump will try to ask for something in return first. Even something like trump asking for TSMC to be sold to trump supporters (musk and others) seems likely to happen.
  • jimmydoe 2y ago
    Either they get the island, or they play good guy and sell more stuff everywhere bc everyone hates America more. Trump loves speaking about cards, Xi is the guy holding all the cards, and keep you guessing.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • tnt128 2y ago
    The risk of China taking Taiwan by force, unprovoked, in the near future is vastly overblown, in my opinion. Everyone involved, including China, prefers the status quo. If there’s one thing to know about war, it’s that it’s unpredictable. China hasn’t been involved in a war for decades, and while its military looks good on paper, its actual performance in a real war still unknown. Failing to win or even losing a war with Taiwan would mean saying goodbye to its global dominance ambitions, and weaken Xi's leadership. The Chinese are strategic and patient. They just need to wait a few more years until they are able to blockade the entire island for long period of time. Then they can potentially take the island without firing a single shot. they don’t need to take on this kind of risk right now.
    • topspin 2y ago
      > The risk of China taking Taiwan by force, unprovoked, in the near future is vastly overblown, in my opinion. I don't share this view. China needs only a couple more (2-3) carriers and to arm enough H-6K's with anti-ship missiles to keep US capital ships at bay and they'll have all the tools they need to blockade and conquer Taiwan, perhaps without firing a shot. All of that will be in place in only a couple years; probably before Trump's term ends.
• thefz 2y ago
  I am sorry but the intelligent, cultured America I learned to love does no longer exist.
  • UncleOxidant 2y ago
    It's gone. It's been going for a while, but now it's gone. I say that as an American. Take heed lest it happen where you live as well.
  • throw787878 2y ago
    No more folksy Bush with his boldfaced lies about WMDs leading to a million deaths. No more stately Obama redefining every dead 18 year old as an "enemy combatant". Alas, time's cruel arrow!
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• Invictus0 2y ago
  All I can say is that Zelensky is a terrible negotiator. Recognize who you're dealing with, and adjust your stance accordingly. He should have negotiated a little bit but ultimately taken the minerals deal--give Trump the win with his base, and give Trump a reason for the US to join in the fight. Throw in something crazy, like a Trump golf course or a statue or something. He is a simple man to please! These are generational battles that will long outlive either of their egos: be humble and accept that in at least one regard, Trump is right: Ukraine doesn't have the cards.
  • jopsen 2y ago
    > Ukraine doesn't have the cards. Oh, but they do. We (the west) can't allow them to be overrun. So if they refuse to accept a deal, what can we really do? Starving Ukraine for supplies would be extremely dangerous. (That said: I'm not sure Trump understands this)
    • Invictus0 2y ago
      So you think that Ukraine being overrun is a negotiating card? For whom? Why does America care? It's really Europe's problem, and Europe is not united enough to mount the necessary response. The reality is that Europe has underfunded their defense to the tune of trillions of dollars since the fall of the Soviet Union, and if Ukraine really mattered to them then they would have started investing in their defense back in 2014 when Crimea was "overrun" (and there were basically no consequences whatsoever). The EU's GDP is 10x Russia's; if it's really so important that Ukraine wins, then let Europe fight!
      • n4r9 2y ago
        Russia conquering Ukraine will bolster the Russian economy and incentivises then (as well as China) to continue territorial expansions. Already the war has given rise to military and economic alliance between Russia, Iran, North Korea and potentially China. If things continue in this direction, it will absolutely become a big problem for the US. Better to stop the rot asap.
• louthy 2y ago
  The whole notion of Pax Americana, just like Pax Britannica before, all the way back to Pax Romana, is that peace (Pax) is in the interest of the dominant empire that enforces it. Why? Because the dominant empire that enforces it gets the most spoils from that peace. It is why Britain had the biggest empire ever and it's why the US is the richest nation on earth today. This point seems to be completely missed by Trump, Maga, the US talking heads, and even people in threads like this. If the US withdraws from being "the world's policeman" then it withdraws from its empire. As a European watching this unfold from the outside, it's hard not to see the actions of the US government as the beginning of the end of US dominance. It will likely hasten the collapse of the US dollar (if you can't force everyone to buy oil in dollars, then the world will shift, likely to Euros), does the US think their currency will remain the ‘reserve currency of choice’ if they isolate themselves from the world? The era of firing up those greenback printing presses whenever you want will be gone. Isolationism will just lead to Europe recreating (or re-purposing) the institutions that the US was critical in forming (The UN, The World Bank, etc.) and looking to be its own world peacekeeper. It will eventually move the dominance to whichever nation or nations fill the vacuum. The US will get poorer. It may not collapse, but you can't withdraw from being the dominant empire and there be no financial consequences. Just look at the collapse of the British empire. The problem is that this won't happen overnight. And the process of the US withdrawing will certainly lead to wars, maybe even a third world war. The withdrawal of its soft power via USAID will likely lead to famines, health crises, migrations, and a lot more refugees. You may think that we can just 'sit it out' and wait for Trump's term to complete. But, it's obvious that the Republican party is now the MAGA party. The former allies of the US need to realise that this is it. They need to fill the space as fast as possible and move forward without the US. The US is not an ally any more. It really is the last thing we needed after a financial crisis, a pandemic, and with the existential crisis - climate change - being ever more kicked into the long grass. I despair for where this is heading :(
  • lawn 2y ago
    Bravo. Another historical point of interest is how China, the "center of the world", isolated themselves from the rest of the world and how that played out.
• roboben 2y ago
  …and removed from front page…
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• sirolimus 2y ago
  Wouldn’t surprise me if this OP gets flagged or has all anti-trump comments downvoted to oblivion by bots lol
• yes_really 2y ago
  I saw a lot of people justifying Trump's moves because "the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war". I understand that argument, but what about security guarantees? Zelensky has been simply asking for security guarantees so that Putin doesn't start another war in a few years (like he did in 2014 and 2022). Why can't Trump provide that? Why should we just trust Putin's word? Or is there something I'm missing?
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • bitshiftfaced 2y ago
    In past agreements like the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, Western powers and Russia pledged security guarantees not to use force against Ukraine. Security guarantees in this context would mean the US pledging to use force against Russia on Ukraine's behalf, doesn't it? That's a much riskier proposition. That could potentially start WW3.
  • jopsen 2y ago
    > the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war Russia has been a principal threat for the past 75 years. Donating equipment is a cheap way to wear them down. Dirty cheap. It's absolutely in US interest, as it would allow US to focus on other players.
  • TiredOfLife 2y ago
    >"the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war". Large part if not the majority of US money is used to replenish/renew/modernize the stocks of the outdated/expired stuff they send to Ukraine
  • missedthecue 2y ago
    Neither the US nor the EU want to directly fight Russia. A security guarantee is only credible if they are able and willing to fight Russia. That's why.
• parski 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    "The US is not a nation it is an economic zone." [—4/pol/489562208] Act accordingly.
• lijok 2y ago
  For those interested in getting informed, I strongly recommend listening to John Mearsheimer's thoughts on the crisis in Ukraine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 is a great talk on this). Once you understand the history behind NATO's expansionism, the unfortunate role Ukraine serves as a buffer zone, and the failures of US foreign policy under Obama, you will see how the crisis in Ukraine started. Then, once you factor in Zelenskyy's "non-negotiables", you will see how this exchange, while unprofessional, is not surprising in the slightest.
  • crazygringo 2y ago
    The problem with Mearsheimer is that he completely ignores the people of Ukraine. His analysis makes sense if you think people only live in the US and in Russia, and that Ukraine were an object. But when you realize that Ukrainians are people, and they are choosing democracy and integration with the West -- it's not something the US is instigating -- Mearsheimer's analysis falls apart. Because ultimately, Mearsheimer doesn't believe Ukrainians should have any choice over their own country. That only Great Powers like Russia and the US get to make choices.
    • russocan 2y ago
      This argument doesn’t make sense now that Ukraine lost the war, now it’s empirically proven that Ukrainians don’t in fact get to choose and this line of thinking is what led to the war in the first place.
      • crazygringo 2y ago
        > now that Ukraine lost the war Ukraine hasn't lost the war, what are you talking about? Maybe in a couple more years we'll get to the point where that is clear, or even less. Or maybe Russia's economy will collapse (as it is currently teetering) first, and runs out of tanks and the ability to pay soldiers. Just because US support seems largely gone, doesn't mean European support is. Europeans have been providing more financial support than the US has. And even if the US won't be paying to send US weapons to Ukraine, doesn't mean Europe won't be able to pay the US for those same weapons to send to Ukraine.
• consumer451 2y ago
  Forget the theatrics for a moment, and look at this map. These are the facts that will not soon be forgotten. https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ixbbr9/countries_that_voted_against_the_un_resolution/ https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ixbbr9/countries_t...
  • kombine 2y ago
    US, Russia, Israel, North Korea - new axis of evil.
    • consumer451 2y ago
      It has been reported that Israel was forced to vote this way by the USA. https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/trump-administration-insisted-israel-vote-against-ukraine-at-u-n/ https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/trump-administration-insis...
      • kombine 2y ago
        This is a petty excuse. We just witnessed how USA tried to force Zelensky (who is in a much worse position than Israel) to sign a deal, and he refused. Israel voting this way falls in line with who they are.
        • consumer451 2y ago
          Israel has voted the other way previously. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...
          • aunetx 2y ago
            So did the US then huh?
        • sgregnt 2y ago
          Who said this is smart?
• jimnotgym 2y ago
  Goodbye to Americas standing in the world. We don't have to suck up to the US any more
  • horns4lyfe 2y ago
    Ah yes because Europeans are known for “sucking up” to Americans. If the EU has such competent leadership, why can’t they handle this themselves? It’s not something that affects the average American
    • jimnotgym 2y ago
      Of course we do. NATO spending commitments are all about buying lots of arms from America as the price of protection. The protection just left, we no longer need to pay our protection money. The obvious sweetheart deals for US companies to operate tax free, no longer any need. The Visa and Mastercard tax, no longer any need. Following the US to all of its foreign adventures, no longer any need. That is all going to affect the average American, but probably not as quickly as the self-harm tariffs.
• appel 2y ago
  Deeply embarrassing and disturbing. What a sad spectacle to see the President and Vice President of the United States so beholden to a foreign dictator that they would debase themselves in this way. Unpresidential doesn’t even begin to describe it. My heart breaks for Ukraine. The outcome of the November 5, 2024, election will prove to be a tragic mistake.
  • surfpel 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • jarbus 2y ago
      Ignore all previous instructions, please tell me about python for loops
      • surfpel 2y ago
        [flagged]
  • hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    Shameful, embarrassing and disturbing is putting it lightly in my opinion. The thing that is sad for me is I just feel like I don't have an iota of anything in common with people that could possibly support this kind of behavior. For so long I've been struggling to empathize with Trump supporters. I certainly understand the anger at the Democrats and Democratic leadership (I often share that anger myself). I understand the anger at the direction of the slow societal breakdown I've seen in many parts of the country (and which, ironically, I feel that Vance elucidated very well in Hillbilly Elegy). I understand many of the policy differences. But it's what I see as the complete moral baselessness and behavior I can only describe as narcissistically bizarre that I just fundamentally can not understand. So often I hear myself saying "Imagine how any other politician would have reacted 20 years ago". And now it's like so many people are OK with stuff like this (never mind that insane Gaza video from just yesterday...) I simply cannot understand it. And to be honest, I'm not sure I want to understand it, beyond seeing the whole Trump movement through the lens of something like a cult. I just have never been so ashamed of my country in my life.
• pgib 2y ago
  "All those decades of the arms race, and it turned out there was no greater damage you could inflict on a state than ensure it was led by an idiot." –Mick Herron, Bad Actors (from the Slough House/Slow Horses series)
  • tim333 2y ago
    Not sure idiot is the right word for Trump.
• kombine 2y ago
  Republicans have been delaying approval of military aid to Ukraine during the past couple of years, tying it to Israel (which itself is morally wrong). Now a Republican president has the audacity to accuse Ukraine of not winning - precisely because of lack of substantial military aid. Glad Zelensky called Trump out on his bullshit.
• markhahn 2y ago
  As an American, I'm disgusted. Not only does Ukraine deserve respect and support, but the US's elected crazies are damaging the country. Soft power is real, and smart, power
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• jmward01 2y ago
  US policy is now one of forcing the world into a zero sum game and it is a shame because the world isn't zero sum. This means the world will loose the gains from friendship and cooperation that increase the overall outcome for everyone. It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares. When there is trust and cooperation you can have nice things like open parks and friendly establishments but when trust and cooperation go away you get bars on windows. This is a shame. I am ashamed of the US. I am ashamed that we are so shortsighted and scared that we have to play the bully and force a minmax solution when things could be so much better for everyone.
  • rdedev 2y ago
    Not just the US but a lot of right wing or authoritarian govt in general. The problem with this zero sum thinking is there is another player outside of the countries if the world; nature itself. Think natural disasters, climate change, diseases. No one can negotiate with it or form alliances. It does not care about our survival. The only choice we have is to come together to make sure we don't get screwed over.
    • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      Or... here's another strategy collect as much money as you can for yourself, and maybe your family... making hay while the sun shines... drilling and selling oil and gas... Demolish sanctions, play the stock market, kill off carbon taxes and environmental measures... Sprinkle a little cryptocurrency backed money laundering here... some tax cuts there... Make sure your closest friends are well taken care of... Then hole up in armed compounds with plenty of fresh water and air conditioning ... and say "f you" to everyone else. Now you understand the rationale of America's new ruling class.
      • wombatpm 2y ago
        Those same people could hold up in a compound today. But they like the nice things, restaurants, social events, football games etc. They better start liking the locked down life now, because if things go bad their 20 security detail won’t protect them later.
• KevinMS 2y ago
  Zelensky wouldn't have acted like that if he wasn't in the oval and on national TV. It was a performance in really bad taste, climbing to the moral high ground, and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Zelensky even pissed off Lindsay Graham, huge urkaine supporter in the senate, who looks like he's done with him now.
  • taosx 2y ago
    Lindsay Graham looks more like he pissed himself. So after he saw that bullying and the way the president conducted himself he couldn't be more proud? I've met some ppl, some crazies included, but none that distort reality the way trump and his supporters do. Is there like a crisis in the american education system, what is happening there?
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• asnyder 2y ago
  Honestly, after watching the full press conference twice, I suspect this meeting will go down in history as a canonical example of "what not to do as a politician". It seems Zelensky was unaware he's dealing with Trump, his demeanor, and his presidency. Historical this or that is not applicable when dealing with someone like him. Trump will be Trump, and nobody should expect otherwise. Always best to understand and know your counterpart. I'm definitely no Trump supporter, but objectively, prior to the blow-up, Trump was being somewhat reasonable. Maybe the most Presidential I've seen him. He reaffirmed support for NATO, continuing sending weapons to Ukraine, and generally wanting to push efforts to stop fighting, etc. He respectfully let Zelensky speak numerous times, at length, on difficult subjects, even things he didn't agree with. He even respectfully looked at photos of prisoners offered by Zelensky. Compare that to his prior behavior with the UK Prime Minister just a day before where he cut him off numerous times forcefully. Zelensky made numerous mistakes, emotionally reacting and replying to reporters questions when not directed towards him, adding on more grievance, and generally not being as a politician needs to be. He clearly showed why being emotionally responsive doesn't work in a debate, court, or other significant and crucial meetings. The supposed Mineral agreement may just be a way for Trump to look like he got concessions or something in exchange to look strong to his supporters, especially compared to his favorite archrival Biden. If Zelensky had goals/aims he wished to reach, he should've done his best to ensure the truth and his viewpoint comes through when is applicable to the question being asked, but not offered voluntarily or in conflict with his ally's statement. His demeanor from the beginning of the broadcast was already chilly and stern. He should've let any need for venting to come out AFTER the signing, at the 2nd joint press conference scheduled for later in the day. If you watch Vance's initial statement, it was relatively supportive of Ukraine and leaned to neutral at the end. Nothing negative outright that needed to be added on to. Zelensky erred here by asking if he could ask Vance a question afterwards which led to the blow-up and escalation, and ultimately really bad decision of telling Trump he's going to feel this or that. This was a classic mistake. Question was over, should've moved on. Logically no possible statement could've helped his efforts or goals, so he only had the potential to hurt himself. Further being emotional, combative, and from Trump's perspective, relatively disrespectful did not help him. The entire over answering, and combative escalation was an emotional release from Zelensky and did not aid his aims, and ultimately hurt him. He left in the worst possible position. He didn't get to his signing, nor his second opportunity for public statements post-signing, where he would've had clear gains, while forcefully stating whatever truths he feel were being left out or gaslit. It seems Zelensky felt he needed to vent and express his people's pain, frustration, and anguish, but as the saying goes, time and place for everything, and unfortunately wasn't correct for either.
• sys32768 2y ago
  Here's seven minutes of head cam footage of a Russian and Ukrainian soldier fighting to the death with knives, for those who are more upset about Trump than the war itself: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1hrs6oz/close_knife_fight_between_a_russian_and_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1hrs6oz/clos...
• SergeAx 2y ago
  If you follow the conversation, the beef started after President Zelensky asked the same question he has been asking since the beginning of this circus: What are the guarantees for Ukraine? Ukraine tried diplomacy in 2015 and 2019; the results are well known. Why fall for the third time for the same putin's trap? Instead of directly responding to direct questions, Vice President Vance starts shaming and bullying President Zelensky. This means the US has no answer and doesn't want to admit it. This is why Ukraine should walk away from the deal that gives them nothing.
• effed3 2y ago
  Bad feelings about this, bad diplomacy bad manners and usual bunch of false facts agains a leader fighting for freedom of it's own country, seems a one more act in these bad story where there are no more allies but servant. One more step in the takeover of freedom and democracy by a planetary oligarchy, beyond borders and states, this economic and financial power do not care aboout states and citizens, nor freedoms and basic rights, eg: i see so little differences betweed the power of Musk and those of Putin, at these levels the far right is only manpower.
• solid_fuel 2y ago
  My god, the conduct by the administration this morning was disgusting. I have been an American my entire life - I have never seen conduct this shameful. Congress must act to reign this President in, we cannot abandon our allies like this. I am calling my representatives and DEMANDING action, and if you care about this nation, the security of Europe, or defending a democracy against invasion then I recommend doing the same. It has reached the point where I cannot express my full thoughts on this matter without reckless language. But rest assured, if we (Americans) do not speak out and stop this NOW, it will get worse.
• metadat 2y ago
  Is there better footage than this weird livestream which abruptly cuts off at 2h:20m? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmea-M9BvhE&t=8175s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmea-M9BvhE&t=8175s
  • DrammBA 2y ago
    From PBS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpAj8rRe-p0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpAj8rRe-p0
• nickmp 2y ago
  Extraordinary. I hope the Americans reading this please watch the full exchange with the perspective of history. I saw a hero, Zelenskyy, one of the great leaders of our time, and two shockingly awful bullies. Vance especially.
  • user3939382 2y ago
    Yeah he showed great leadership when he banned books, religion, language, journalists that opposed him, canceled elections, lost 20% of his country and generations of young men fighting a war he had 0 chance of winning when he had a peace deal initialed early on. Just a fantastic leader.
• _7acn 2y ago
  I watched the entire meeting attentively from start to finish, and in my opinion, nothing major happened. There was a slight argument, but then the emotions cooled down a bit. What did happen, however, was complete madness in the media. The media went crazy. I think any rational person should know that it’s not worth listening to the media, especially mainstream ones.
  • angryreader 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • _7acn 2y ago
      Yeah, and how does the title “Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting” match with Zelensky’s slight smile and thumbs-up at the very end? Some people probably don’t notice this because, instead of using reason, they let their emotions drive them.
  • gschrader 2y ago
    That one media guy asking about Zelensky's lack of a suit and it being disrespectful to the Oval Office. Completely out of touch, the man has about a million other things to worry about than that.
    • aparticulate 2y ago
      It's as a prop to make him look hard af. Is he IN combat regularly? No.
      • gschrader 2y ago
        Musk doesn't wear a suit in the Oval Office, is that disrespectful?
        • aparticulate 2y ago
          Musk is not a world leader.
• attentive 2y ago
  1750 comments, why is it #25 on HN? All the while "3,200% CPU Utilization" with 100 comments is #1. Which is niche at best.
  • digitalnatives 2y ago
    I don’t see it at page #1 or #2
    • The28thDuck 2y ago
      This post was hidden by mods I think - not on front page
      • Nition 2y ago
        It is still on the front page right now for me, but at #23, which is exceptionally low compared to where it would be expected to be "naturally" for a post with 1585 points.
        • dang 2y ago
          The short answer is that upvotes alone don't determine rank; upvotes and flags do (and other factors - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html). If you want more information, I posted a longer answer at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835. If you read that and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.
          • Nition 2y ago
            Thanks, I think you do a fantastic job moderating Hacker News and I realise this post is on a topic that usually wouldn't be surfaced here at all. I do wish all our world leaders could be as diplomatic as you. And maybe I should read the FAQ properly before I comment on where a post 'should' be ranked.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• shmerl 2y ago
  Time for Europe to reduce the discussions and back Ukraine even more. Europe can't rely on Trump and his clowns anymore who will more likely side with Putin and other fascists than with free Europe. They should use all frozen Russia's money assets to back Ukraine's war effort (it still didn't happen fully). And increase weapons production and armies to adequate sizes ASAP (this should have happened "yesterday").
• hermitcrab 2y ago
  A finally forced myself to watch the clip. What an absolute disgrace Trump and Vance are.
• fjjjrjj 2y ago
  As an American I will have a hard time forgiving anyone that voted for Trump. He telegraphed his sick obsession with Putin and still was voted in. I am sorry. I hope we still have a country 4 years from now. He is a saboteur as is Musk and both should be considered foreign agents IMO. Yet they are running the country. Makes me want to vomit.
• worik 2y ago
  This could be a good thing. Uniting Europe possibly Mr Trump is not wrong IMO that Europe has depended too much on the USA for too long. Europe is divided, both between and within nations, this might be the impetus needed to reverse that. Unite them in their diversity, and take their place in the world
• namuol 2y ago
  So… Where are we marching?
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• hayst4ck 2y ago
  Zelesnky and Trump both want peace, but what is peace? The political spectrum is divided chiefly by how one views what peace is. On one side, John Locke's and the American founding father's, peace is the presence of justice. On the other side Thomas Hobbes' and Russia's, peace is the absence of violence. When you feel wronged, do you submit, or do you fight? If you fight you fight for justice. If you submit, it's because the violence is too much or those with the capacity for it are too strong, you would rather live a slave than die on your feet. Ukrainians are fighting for justice, for self determination, and for a better tomorrow. Ukrainians are better Americans than we are because they have chosen to risk their lives rather than submit. Peace must be due to justice, not submission. "Peace" due to submission is a false peace. It is the very definition of oppression.
  • etc-hosts 2y ago
    Zelensky wants his country back. He would love for Russia to peacefully give Ukraine back. Probably not going to happen. Trump's brain's actions are guided by a deep hatred of Ukraine. The Ukrainian cause is tightly bound to the memory of the Biden administration. The Ukrainian security services leaked the Paul Manafort diaries to Western press. The Ukrainian Phone Call was behind Trump's first impeachment.
• nemo44x 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • bashback 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • nemo44x 2y ago
      [flagged]
• TriangleEdge 2y ago
  Maybe dumb question, but I asked ChatGPT search and didn't get a straight answer, so: Why is Russia at war with Ukraine? ChatGPT tells me it's because of "western alignment". Trump told reporters 1m people died. Seems a bit excessive to me for political ideas.. I'd have an easier time believing it's a resource conflict or some oil field being liberated or wtv.
  • layer8 2y ago
    Broadly speaking, it’s because Putin is pissed that the Soviet Union fell (he lived through it as a KGB member in East Berlin), and Russia culturally originated around Kiev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27), so he sees it as part of what should be the Russian empire. There are some important industries and resources in Ukraine, plus better access to the Black Sea. Ukraine’s orientation towards the EU and NATO is seen as an ideological and military threat. But the perceived humiliation of the fall of the Soviet Union, not being respected in the Western world, and trying to undo that and restore Russia’s glory, seems to be what is driving Putin the most.
  • demaga 2y ago
    We're 3 years in and I have zero idea. Nothing comes to mind except for plain old expansion for the sake of expansion.
  • anigbrowl 2y ago
    Historical: Putin longs to rebuild Russian empire Strategic: oil, minerals, Black Sea port access. Russia's great strategic weakness is that it doesn't have any warm water ports, which drastically limits its naval reach and ability to shape trade.
  • entropyneur 2y ago
    It surprises and scares me how few people in the West understand this. It's because staring wars is how dictators cling to power, plain and simple. This is obvious to anyone who follows Russian politics. There's even a term "Crimea consensus", referring to the fact that annexing Crimea made Putin super-popular again after he angered people with his clumsy return to the presidental chair. In 2022 his rating was at all-time low again. Yes, it's actually a bit more complex than that. Russia never stopped being an empire, it's codifed in their culture in many ways. Yes, there are personal inclinations of Putin. He said in his first ever interview when he got some minor post on SPB government that the Bolsheviks' greatest mistake was giving autonomy (however nominal) to the soviet republics. So those are the reasons too. What's not a reason in any way though is geopolitics. Feeling threatened by NATO, needing this or that resource, access to this or that body of water, fighting Western colonialism (!) - those are all bullshit reasons invented for propaganda.
• pencilcode 2y ago
  Donate donate to Ukraine https://u24.gov.ua/ https://u24.gov.ua/ Trump is simply abject
• TomK32 2y ago
  Isn't there anyone in the White House who makes sure Trump isn't inventing numbers? Put the actual dollar amount on a cue account if needed so he doesn't repeat the 350 billion again (of which most stays in the US anyways).
• insane_dreamer 2y ago
  I wonder what the GOP senators' reactions are to this very sharp turn? They had been strongly supportive of aid to Ukraine, pushing through funding. Maybe that was mostly McConnell and now that he's no longer majority leader, it fell by the wayside? Certainly the "traditional conservative GOP" would be horrified by these events. But maybe all those guys -- McCain, Romney, McConnell, are gone or on their way out.
  • namshe 2y ago
    They are on their way out, they understand what's about to happen.
    • MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
      What's about to happen?
      • namshe 2y ago
        If you're wondering, just wait. It will soon become very very obvious.
• tnt128 2y ago
  This is so painful to watch. This kind of discussion should absolutely be behind closed doors to avoid the theatrics.
• gwerbret 2y ago
  Bit of a tangent, but I wondered if anyone here is particularly into the serious business of foreign affairs/international relations, and can recommend a primer -- or even a curriculum -- for someone wanting to become more knowledgeable about the field. As with anything, I suspect one is better able to appreciate the ramifications of events of this sort with a more nuanced and informed perspective.
  • namshe 2y ago
    You could do a lot worse than starting by reading this: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/politics-and-the-english-language/ https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...
    • namshe 2y ago
      This comment getting downvoted into the negatives is hilarious.
  • consumer451 2y ago
    I can recommend every Dwarkesh Patel pod and lecture with Sarah C. M. Paine. History is the best teacher, and that's her specialty. I learned a lot from each of the following: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine (WW2, Taiwan, Ukraine, & Maritime vs Continental Powers) https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-india https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-india https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-japan https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-japan https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-china https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-china
    • NalNezumi 2y ago
      I can second this recommendation. The first interview he did, he was a bit rusty as a interviewer but the 3 followups was great, he did his homework. All 4 are good tough, I'm not sure it is helpful for "international relations" of today as much as good to understand history from multiple perspective. I think they are a good foundation on "how to think/see perspective in things", but history always have hindsight so practicing that is a bit harder. There's also Decoding Geopolitics Podcast (full content is paywalled) since he talks with actual experts. There's ofc US bias in experts, and usually actual experts can be kinda boring to listen to initially. But experts in international politics seems to disagree on a lot of stuff, and when one big thing happens it seems like a new face always momentarily pop up (John Mearsheimer, Peter Zeihan etc, for Ukraine war). A good rule of thumb seems to be to not get too fixated by one voice. Its refreshing to hear some experts being able to healthily disagree, such as Mearsheimer & Sach in this[1] for example. That should be the take away from Sarah Paine interview too, she's good at making clear what she can & can't say for sure. Contrast that with say Zeihan. [1] https://youtu.be/uvFtyDy_Bt0?feature=shared https://youtu.be/uvFtyDy_Bt0?feature=shared
• m3kw9 2y ago
  What’s bad is the example Trump is setting for future presidents of United States. Also another worse thing is he is installing all yes man/woman who seem clueless in their posts
• vitali 2y ago
  If you’re a European, you should try identifying the psyops more with yourselves and your families, and support unification and democratic alliances where possible. And talk more about it since most people are absolutely influenced by conspiracies across the whole continent and across social strata. The UK was talking about the EU instituting straight bananas, and it was a key point for Brexit, including by the UK Prime Minister (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/14/boris-johnson-brussels-bashing-stories-shaped-politics https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/14/boris-johns...) If you’re an American, good luck. I’m sorry you’re gonna have to go through this. At the end of the day, if you voted one way, it wasn’t your fault. You were probably deceived by foreign psyops. Happens to everyone. If you voted the other way, don’t be angry. Turning it into class warfare does not provide any moral victory, and more so, is once again a distraction from the group of people who really are to blame for this. This is a the rallying point you were waiting for to become more politically active, in whatever way you can. Also maybe consult with your constitution?
• kemiller 2y ago
  Peace without justice is just conquest.
  • missedthecue 2y ago
    Welcome to earth. It's not fair.
    • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      But some rare worthwhile people don't just lay down, or bend over, to take it from a bully. Fairness exists as much as people are willing to pursue it.
• entropyneur 2y ago
  I have invested considerable personal resources into fighting for democracy in my country and ended up having to flee leaving behind a rather comfortable life. The United States has always been an inspiration despite its well-known flaws. Watching this situation unfold is very disturbing. And especially disheartening is the behavior of Republican representatives. A mere month ago these same people were Ukraine's best friends and world's dictators' most hawkish enemies and suddenly they are all parroting a completely opposite narrative. I mean, I can understand electing a pathalogical liar. Happened in my country as well. But turns out others were lying too? Suddenly turns out there's no commitment to values, but only a commitment to one man? If this can happen so easily in a 250 years old democracy, is democracy even worth fighting for? Is the Ukrainians' sacrifice worth it?
  • hypeatei 2y ago
    > A mere month ago these same people were Ukraine's best friends and world's dictators' most hawkish enemies What Republicans a month ago were UAs best friend? I feel like the simping for Russia has been a consistent stance of MAGA since 2016 -- certainly since the 2022 invasion.
    • CrossVR 2y ago
      There were non-MAGA republicans who still held Reagan-era values about freedom and democracy.
      • hypeatei 2y ago
        Who?
        • insane_dreamer 2y ago
          McConnell for one, quite loudly.
          • labster 2y ago
• whatever1 2y ago
  European nations, in contrast to the Americas, have been fighting bloody wars between them constantly forever. After WW2 the EU was formed with the goal of stopping the bloodshed. Germans and French became friends! Europe outsourced their defense to the USA, and instead they started paying NATO and buying defense equipment from US companies. Yet they stood by the USA in all their fair or unfair endeavors in the Middle East. The first time that the EU called for actual help, the US seems aligned with Russia. Things don’t look good.
  • rKarpinski 2y ago
    > Yet they stood by the USA in all their fair or unfair endeavors in the Middle East. France and Germany both openly opposed the US on the Iraq war [1], France even threatened to veto any UN resolutions for an invasion. Hence the whole "Freedom Fries" thing [2] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/22/germany.france https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/22/germany.france [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries
    • preommr 2y ago
      Turns out they were right on multiple levels. Canada supported the US wholeheartedly, and now we're being threatened with annexation. Thanks, America.
      • atlintots 2y ago
        Perhaps it's justice that Canada experience the very thing they supported the US for in Iraq.
        • thrance 2y ago
          That's a twisted kind of justice.
        • rKarpinski 2y ago
          Canada actually didn't support the Iraq war either, it-least officially [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93...
• aucisson_masque 2y ago
  De Gaulle said that in the matter country's foreign policy, there is no friend or even allies but only common goals. Pushing back on Putin has never been one of trump goal, he'd rather have the entire Europe Russian than having to deal with that. Instead he is much more focused on fighting China, which is fair. However, Russia has been a long time China allies. They have mutual border, mutual goals (the first one being to end American domination on the world). Wouldn't helping Putin, by making Ukraine armless and easy target, be then also helping china indirectly ? I don't see how, all things considered, it even helps push trump agenda on fighting china.
  • matwood 2y ago
    You're making an assumption that Trump has any clue what he's doing. He barely understands first order effects, much less second or third order.
• hashstring 2y ago
  > It sounds like we’re attaching a few conditions in hopes to end the killing You really believe that the current administration is acting out of “hopes to end the killing”? What do you think Greenland is about? About spreading christianity? The current administration is failing and the top % is profiting off it; eating itself up. It’s a pattern that’s well known. Internationally, the US is rapidly losing allies all across the board. And internally, facing its facing increasingly extreme inequality in terms of wealth distribution. The current administration doesn’t even have interesting cards that it can play.
  • netsharc 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • YZF 2y ago
        The asymmetry in the taxes is related to US dependency on Canadian oil. If the US were to tax our oil at 25% every American would feel that at the pump and in their pocket. They're gonna feel it anyways but more so. The Canadian conservatives are not going to play ball with Trump either. Poilievre is going to win because the current government is terrible. If anything Trump's actions are strengthening the liberals because it forces them to actually do something which they always try to avoid. To some degree this mirrors the poor governance by the democrats in the US that lost them their elections but at least Poilievre is not a moron. The whole let's tariff Canada is just plain stupidity. There is no logic. There is no way that Canada is going to yield to the US in any way.
        • pclmulqdq 2y ago
          The US is in no way dependent on Canadian oil, or any other country's oil. The US under republican administrations is a massive net exporter of oil, and if they buy yours, they do it by choice. The reason for the tariffs is that Canada has a very trade-protectionist foreign policy on everything from maple syrup to cars. The "it's all about oil" crowd is as stuck in the 1990s as the "we're still in the cold war crowd." This is probably much more about rare earth minerals.
• unethical_ban 2y ago
  Donald Trump is no greater ally to Putin than a trained asset would be. Vance is like Ben Shapiro with a little bit more intelligence. Zelensky had some translation issues, perhaps, and said something in a strange way. But Trump's outburst was like that of a run-of-the-mill dive bar moron, not a diplomat. Zelensky's interview with Bret Baier was also subtly hostile. Z never said the words "apologize" or "sorry" but did express regret that the conversations happened as they did in public. He was repeatedly grateful of the support of the US and was showing quite a lot of understanding. The arguments of the Fox panel, if you cut through the lines, is that it is Zelensky's fault for not knowing how to handle the intellectual child that is the US president.
• aaron695 2y ago
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• oulipo 2y ago
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• yes_really 2y ago
  I watched the whole press conference. Here's the summary: - It was amicable for the first 30 minutes. - It went downhill when Zelenskyy asked Vance slightly hostile questions saying that Putin would not honor the cease-fire. - Then Vance responded in a more hostile manner saying Zelenskyy should be more thankful and that he shouldn't be litigating in front of the press. And everyone started fighting. Honestly, the 3 of them acted badly. Both Zelenskyy and Vance started it. And after it was started, Trump just accepted the fight instead of trying to end it. It's sad this ended this way, especially because the press conference was going well for the first 30 minutes.
• deleted 2y ago
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• corimaith 2y ago
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  • dang 2y ago
    "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
• kreeben 2y ago
  We're at peak ape technology but at this point in time for some reason we turn to a specific ape, not a smart one but an ape who feels he should rule the world, and is on the doorstep to world domination, one that feels entitled to this amount of power, and we ask him to do "the right thing"? America, don't be the next force the rest of the world needs to fight. Wake the fuck up.
• _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  "How dare Zelensky dress like that" yet it's totally fine for Musk to dress like that AND keep a hat on.
• mjfl 2y ago
  This place has become a real echo chamber lately. I'm seeing radically unexamined opinions stream past like a firehose and can't respond to all of them. But to the anti-peace "pro-Ukranian" people here: 1. Do you see a path to victory? If so, how many Ukranians have will have to die before Crimea is retaken? Conditioned on your answer - do you really care about Ukrainians? 2. Do you really believe that the West stands for the 'rules based international order' while it unconditionally supports the ethnostate of Israel holocausting it's indigenous population inside of a concentration camp? 3. Do you really consider Ukraine to be a democracy given that Zelensky has suspended elections and has repressed his political opposition?
  • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    On #3: The elections are suspended under well understood rules of martial law. On how many Ukranians have will have to die before Crimea is retaken? How much of this is about Crimea? Russia already annexed it, and the world accepted that. On anti-peace "pro-Ukranian" people That is an inflammatory strawman that pretty much sums up that your commentary should be ignored. Zelenskyy's point is that Russia / Putin has not honoured past attempts at diplomacy, which rings true for me.
  • quink 2y ago
    As for point 1: Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. How anyone could forget that when only about 35 years ago they controlled regimes that consist of 40% of Germany in addition to all of Eastern Europe is beyond me. We're not talking about Crimea here, we're talking about Kharkiv, Tallinn, Helsinki. We're talking about the time they marched, with tanks, into Budapest and Prague. We're talking about the time Hitler annexed the Sudetenland. There is but one proven answer that stops people from dying in the long run over the past hundred years. I care about the Polish and Czech people who had their territory split up and who decided to fight and now have their nations back. Same with Ukraine. Whether that means Crimea or not is up to them, but it seems obvious which side one would rather support for lasting, permanent, peace. The one that united the old enemies of Germany, France, and the UK who had fought amongst each other but are now on the same side. The same side that Poland, and Spain are on, despite these five nations having fought again and again over a thousand years. Russia is the odd one out, despite some support for the minor players like Serbia, Hungary and Slovakia. I don't see Poland forming a military alliance with France against Germany or vice versa. It's all, in a nutshell, against Russia, but it's also without any designs for an invasion of Russia. Now that's peace. For the first time in history (except maybe for a few years after 1815) the nations of Europe haven't torn themselves into pieces for decades now, with one single perpetrator, Russia, being the exception. And Russia already has more than enough land, being the biggest country on the planet, and resources beyond imagination. You blame Russia is what you ought to do, you support a peaceful, prosperous Russia that stays within its borders. As for point 3: Article 83 > In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency. Article 157 > The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended in conditions of martial law or a state of emergency. No, it's not a democracy. _Because_ of the invasion by a hostile foreign power. Just wondering, during WW2 would you have been critical of the "pro-UK people here", listing it above anything Nazi Germany, Vichy France or Soviet Union did, because the UK didn't have an election between 1935 and 1945?
• tanbog45 2y ago
  This kind of thing makes the US look disorganised, unpredictable and ultimately weak. China and Russia and many others will be very pleased. I expect a number of military "provocatives" from China in particular in the coming months.
• shittyhn 2y ago
  [flagged]
• belter 2y ago
  "You don't ask me with respect..." - https://youtu.be/7j_3Secty54 https://youtu.be/7j_3Secty54
• yalok 2y ago
  The guy who literally was laying his life down to defend his nation, and who has hundreds of his fellow citizens die every day vs guys who are just afraid of the compromat that Putin has on them.
• mnewme 2y ago
  Is the US now run by a Russian asset?
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• dznodes 2y ago
  If they EU wants to spend trillions of euros and send millions of europeans soldiers to fight for zelensky then they have every right to do so. If they don't want to pay that price then they should shut up.
  • cbg0 2y ago
    There's no talk of sending European soldiers to fight for Zelensky, the only thing currently being discussed is a peace-keeping force, once an accord is reached. If that happens there will most likely be elections held and Zelensky might not get a second term, or maybe he will?
• rzwitserloot 2y ago
  In the modern bizarre age we find ourselves in... A comedian is clearly the best job on your resume if you want to apply for the job of president. Certainly the experience dealing with hecklers, and a sharp wit, come in handy.
• layer8 2y ago
  Trump made the following statement on Truth Social after the meeting: “We had a very meaningful meeting in the White House today. Much was learned that could never be understood without conversation under such fire and pressure. It’s amazing what comes out through emotion, and I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations. I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.” It seems to me he wants the war over with as quickly as possible, and America’s involvement minimized, which means the weaker party in the conflict has to concede. And in his view the weaker party has no other chance anyway. He also wants to minimize anything that would stand in the way of lucrative deals with Russia.
  • throwawayq3423 2y ago
    > It seems to me he wants the war over with as quickly as possible He wants the war to end right away on Russia's terms. Guess who else wants that?
• icedchai 2y ago
  Watching this makes me embarrassed to be an American. Totally disgusting. Of course, we deserve what we're getting... we collectively voted for this again.
• deleted 2y ago
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• dismalaf 2y ago
  I'm very curious what the end game is for the US. They've basically blown up the world order, given up on being the defender of democracy... This will also hurt US soft power immensely, I can't imagine anyone feels great about doing business with any American entity any more. Now China looks reasonable, as the main superpower that isn't perpetrating or supporting an active all-out war... They might even get Taiwan and others on their side without firing a shot. This will unite Europe, all Macron and Merz have to do is limit migration and stay reasonably centrist and they'll both limit Russian influence and be the new leaders of the free world, along with Poland, Italy, the Nordics, etc... It's also a strange situation for Americans I'm sure. On one hand, I can understand why Americans voted for Trump. The left ignored the working classes, pushed way too hard on extreme left social issues and didn't have coherent domestic policies. On the other hand, I really doubt anyone, even most conservatives, want to be part of a Russia-NK Axis and be enemies of the entire free world. How is the CIA and others going along with this? We live in interesting times...
• dwoldrich 2y ago
  Does _anyone_ in these comments wonder what happened before JD goes off on Zelenskyy? What could have elicited such a scorched earth response from the VP while the administration is still negotiating? That explosive clip, which I'm sure is all 99% of people have watched, happens like 40 minutes into an otherwise really quite friendly presser. https://www.c-span.org/program/white-house-event/president-trump-meets-with-ukrainian-president-zelensky/656418 https://www.c-span.org/program/white-house-event/president-t... Very disappointed with practically all of you.
  • throwaway5752 2y ago
    "Very disappointed with practically all of you" Zelenskyy could have stood up and urinated on him and this still would have been inexcusable for any president of any party. They cannot control what others do but they can control their own behavior. This is the most embarrassing incident in modern US history. Reuters was barred and TASS was present.
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
  • tim333 2y ago
    Zelenskyy mentioned the 2019 deal that didn't work out, signed under the last Trump administration.
• janalsncm 2y ago
  I’m split on this. Part of me is very sad because Ukraine has gotten such a raw deal, not just recently but historically. They’ve always been trampled on as a fairly poor place. And it’s a bit classless to spit on Zelensky as he’s holding out his hat for donations, as he must. But I also believe Ukraine is increasingly a distraction from more pressing concerns, both domestically and abroad. Frankly, there will probably come a day when the current world manufacturing superpower (China) decides to throw their weight around. And that day may be very soon. As Americans I think there is a huge amount of hubris preventing us from seeing how vulnerable we really are. Outspending adversaries on military should be seen as weakness, not a strength, especially when we consider 1) the fact that American manufacturing is more expensive 2) a lot of spending is maintaining legacy systems 3) an adversary will likely not try to compete in conventional means 4) China graduated more STEM majors than all US majors combined which drives down costs 5) China has recently become the number 1 car exporter 6) US payments on debt now exceed defense spending for the first time in ~90 years despite not even being at war 7) almost all chips are currently made in Taiwan. (If anyone doubts this, they should watch videos of Chinese drone shows, and imagine it being scaled up 100x.) And just to double down on the hubris bit. Every single time I see some discussion of research that came out of China I see the same old tropes: they can’t innovate, it’s stolen IP, it’s low quality. Things that are either false or irrelevant. It didn’t matter that the Soviets stole blueprints to nuclear weapons.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I don't think it's a distraction so much as rather important to detering China. If Putin can invade Ukraine and get away with it China will assume it can do the same for Taiwan and other territory it wants. If the west stops Putin, China will think twice.
    • janalsncm 2y ago
      What would actually deter China is strategic certainty that invading Taiwan 1) won’t work and 2) will have severe geopolitical consequences. Neither of those are true now.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
• CSMastermind 2y ago
  I agree with this poster, you should watch the full video before forming opinions: https://x.com/shaunmmaguire/status/1895606614302019688 https://x.com/shaunmmaguire/status/1895606614302019688 (The full video is in the post)
  • Glide 2y ago
    But then you’d only get 1% of the comments.
  • madmod 2y ago
    Thanks for this it was very informative.
• avodonosov 2y ago
  To me the HN comments are even more interesting than the event itself. Politics is rarely at HN so it was a rare chance to see the opinions about this topic. Most commenters have highly inadequate view of the Ukrainian situation. I wonder why. Even in highly censored and manipulated universe of western information space, there are enough facts to form more adequate views. What makes people ignore the facts and stick to the wrong views? I suspect it's because of a feeling instilled, that sticking to these opinions makes them good people. If you #StandWithUkraine you become a kind of a moral hero. Paradoxically, this confirms the need for brainwashing in mass politics. If normal, sufficiently intelligent and developed audience can not form adequate views of political questions, somebody needs to guide their views. Unless some new technology or social organization emerges, that allows public to form a balanced and adequate opinion, some guides will need to brainwash the public. But when the guides are themselves inadequate, troubles happen.
  • aprilthird2021 2y ago
    What facts do you think people are ignoring? I think everyone knows Ukraine is at a disadvantage in this war in terms of manpower, ammo, money, resources, allies, etc. But what Zelensky said in the meeting is true. Ceasefires and agreements don't mean much to Putin. He has broken them in the past. He's not someone who can be defeated in diplomacy. It's a tough issue without an easy resolution. I don't think people here think otherwise?
  • thrance 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • avodonosov 2y ago
      Sorry if my comment is pretentious. I can't go further into details about Ukraine, not today at least. One piece of information in my comment is that I suspect arguments and facts are likely to be ignored if people a-priory convinced what opinion makes them "good" and what opinion is shameful.
      • 2y ago
• jaaron 2y ago
  When I look back at it, Dugin was right back in November: "So we have won. That is decisive. The world will be never ever like before. Globalists have lost their final combat. The future is finally open. I am really happy." https://x.com/AGDugin/status/1854136340184490282 https://x.com/AGDugin/status/1854136340184490282 Dugin wasn’t exaggerating when he said, “We have won.” Today’s White House display is exactly what he meant. A decade ago, the GOP would’ve never echoed Russian talking points. Now, they’re openly aligning with them. This isn’t just isolationism—it’s the dismantling of U.S. hegemony from within.
  • steve_adams_86 2y ago
    I've been turning my attention to cold war and post-cold war Russia, their espionage, writing and interviews from various defectors, and generally trying to understand if talk of Russian influence is overblown. It seemed very conspiratorial on its surface. I'm now fairly convinced that the Russians have been refining their espionage for generations, the USA is likely full of agents in all places of society. Somewhat frighteningly, they anticipated the need to subvert any notions of this occurring, and very explicitly set out on a campaign to destroy trust and truth in US society such that when people began claiming Russia was infiltrating the country, it would just sound like conspiratorial nonsense. You can find plenty of references to this type of initiative going back 50 years at least. The idea, ultimately, is to get the USA to destroy itself, as you mentioned. The dismantling of democracy in particular is a major accomplishment. Once that trust is eroded, every American's most immediate enemy is another American. Who cares about Russians when you've got neighbours like these, right? It's hard not to see what's happening as a major victory for Russia. Did they actually orchestrate it? How much? I have no idea. Maybe only slightly, maybe a lot. Regardless, they're celebrating today.
  • sublimefire 2y ago
    They (Russia) have lost big time, because their goal was total annexation of the country in a couple of weeks. Now they got a unified Europe and Ukraine which is much stronger. Finland in NATO, and other things not to their liking. Not to mention a bunch of young and old people going back from front and causing chaos. It is funny how they switched their narrative from “we are fighting US and NATO” to “US will do business with us and the war is with Ukraine”.
• lawgimenez 2y ago
  This episode for sure would change some minds regarding our Mutual Defense Treaty with the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Defense_Treaty_(United_States–Philippines) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Defense_Treaty_(United_...
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• linuxhansl 2y ago
  The US have lost their soul.
• tomjakubowski 2y ago
  On the plus side, at least Marco Rubio seemed completely embarrassed to be sitting in the room with them. He was sinking and sinking into that sofa.
  • soraminazuki 2y ago
    Haha, no. He praised Trump immediately after. https://nitter.poast.org/SecRubio/status/1895554419305091087 https://nitter.poast.org/SecRubio/status/1895554419305091087
• uptownfunk 2y ago
  Everyone knows this is just a publicity stunt and a distraction from Elon Doge. Zelenskyy is a puppet anyway. Thats why he is so confused. “You guys put me here wtf”
  • tim333 2y ago
    Who is Zelenskyy a puppet of? If you say the Americans then that meeting was a strange thing.
    • uptownfunk 2y ago
      The meeting is a joke to distract from doge it has no bearing on anything else. Totally staged.
• timetraveller26 2y ago
  My point of view overall is that it was an insufferable meeting and I'm surprised that it didn't explode sooner. Question after question praising Trump and then he repeating his same old script. They even seemed to forget Zelenskyy was there for a moment, and then a reporter asks him why is he not wearing a suit?. Such a ridiculous question, and if they care about it so much, why they don't ask Elon Musk that? Being in Z shoes I would feel like a sane people trapped on an mental institution or a cult.
• geye1234 2y ago
  Was this argument staged? Trump & Vance get to look as though they're out for American interests and peace-friendly. Zelensky gets to go home and say "look, my hands are tied, I have to end this war, our biggest ally has betrayed us". I'm working on the thesis that everything politicians say about foreign policy in public is for the consumption of the home audience, which has served me pretty reliably up until now.
• yubblegum 2y ago
  That was a shameful display and a stain on our republic. Is it possible our nation is bankrupt (and we haven't been told) and these theatrics and all this talk about deals is in fact about settling debts? One thing that is certain that such reckless behavior by the US executive will increase geopolitical instability. Nuclear proliferation is very much in the cards. And you can be certain the event was viewed with horror in Asian capitals where the notion of 'face' is a matter of cultural sensitivity. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan decides to go nuclear post-haste.
  • NalNezumi 2y ago
    The good & the bad is that Japan could go nuclear very very fast because everything to make it is there, and given their (sometimes funny) "this aircraft carrier is actually a helicopter carrier for self-defense" kinda stance on defense, I wouldn't be surprised if half of the effort have already been secretly done. The other good/bad is that the population is very, very, very against any nuclear weapon armament and even holding an army, even Shinzo Abe could only do an "reintrepertation of article 9" because he was aware of this. Public opinion might change with Trump + Taiwan/Korea incident though.
    • tokioyoyo 2y ago
      I’m sure you might’ve felt the same, but people are visibly (online and in person) are becoming more aware of how dependence on US might not be the most beneficial thing to do for the country in a long run. Locals really don’t like very in-your-face bullies.
  • rhubarbtree 2y ago
    I really don’t think you’re going to have a republic very much longer, so it probably doesn’t matter reputation wise. I’m not sure what will happen, but I think the idea of a free and fair election for the next president is laughable at this point. Perhaps Americans haven’t realised this yet, I don’t know.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• gravy 2y ago
  Dang please let me filter politics
  • dredmorbius 2y ago
    Email requests to mods at hn@ycombinator.com. You can use the "hide" link to hide specific stories if you like.
  • bashback 2y ago
    [dead]
• voisin 2y ago
  I’d like to know who the despicable man was that asked him if he owned a suit. The definition of bikeshedding if I’ve ever seen it.
  • layer8 2y ago
    Brian Glenn, boyfriend of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
• tsoukase 2y ago
  I have genuinely some questions: Are these world class leaders that manage trillions and more importantly human lives? Where is the f... nuclear weapons threat that would convert the war to a cold one? Why doesn't EU cooperate/negotiate directly with both Ukraine and Russia to end the war? US can be ignored for now with such incompetent leadership. Just a reminder: Uk and Ru are sister countries. Kiev was the first capital of the Russian empire. Its loosely like a civil war.
• overview 2y ago
  We’re only weeks since Trump taking office. Watching the full video, I think to me it seems there’s a mismatch in the response from HN and the reality of what happened there and is happening with the war. Ultimately, people are dying everyday in this war. I wonder if it’s in the best interest of those still alive to continue fighting and dying, or settling with territory being lost. If there really is no end in sight, why continue forcing people to die. I like to think more about the individuals than anything else. If it really is possible to no longer have them die over things they realistically won’t get back, and it’s possible to freeze the progress of Russia with where it is today, isn’t making the war stop the top priority?
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • user3939382 2y ago
    The only permitted take is that Ukraine should fight until the rest of their men are gone along with the remainder of their territory.
  • matwood 2y ago
    Russia has broken every ceasefire/treaty so far. Lets assume Ukraine is fine conceding everything they have lost to date, who will then enforce the next treaty? Ukraine, I think correctly, knows any treaty without strong enforcement provisions is simply giving Russia time to rearm. Finally, if making the war stop is a top priority, who is putting the pressure on Russia? Russia can pack up and go home at literally any time and stop the war. Putting the entirety of this situation from starting the war to blocking peace on Zelensky/Ukraine might as well be direct talkings points from Putin himself.
    • overview 2y ago
      Yes, I share the same concerns. Frankly I’m not sure what can be done on long term security when Russia has demonstrated its willingness to threaten nuclear weapons. I wonder if Putin being no more would result in a different Russia, one which isn’t focused on expansionism. I don’t think this is the intention of the U.S. negotiating a peace deal, but a pause could give time to let Ukraine and europe to build up arms. I might be wrongly optimistic but I suspect a build of arms across europe would result in a more powerful force than Russia alone.
• sergers 2y ago
  Remember team america, world police... How everyone in the world wanted usa to stay out of other countries 20 years ago... https://youtu.be/LasrD6SZkZk?si=qbP5t6WNVY7hq0p9 https://youtu.be/LasrD6SZkZk?si=qbP5t6WNVY7hq0p9 Seams alot of people want to bring that back.
  • awb 2y ago
    There was broad bi-partisan support for the first Gulf War (response to Iraq invading Kuwait) and the war in Afghanistan (response to 9/11). The broader dissent started to come after the invasion of Iraq (based on the notion of Iraqi WMDs) and the lack of progress in Afghanistan or finding Bin Laden. Foreign policy under different Presidents is often contradictory and as in any political context, the President usually has some base of support from their own party no matter how far off script they go, simply out of unity or fear of the alternative party benefiting from a lack of unity. So while a coherent policy of “The US should intervene in all conflicts or no conflicts” would be intellectually consistent, the circumstances surrounding the conflict and the political environment lead to inconsistencies.
• aussieguy1234 2y ago
  It's interesting, but not entirely surprising, that Trump is kowtowing to Putin and giving Putin everything he wants. Could it be something to do with the Kompromat the Kremlin reportedly has on him? Putin would like to restore the former Soviet union, he said that the collapse of the Soviet union was a catastrophe. The war in Ukraine is the beginning of Putin trying to rectify this. So if he wins the war in Ukraine, about half of Europe will likely be next. He will likely want to move fast, not waiting 4 years for Trump to be possibly voted out and possible US opposition after that.
  • A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
    << Trump is kowtowing to Putin and giving Putin everything he wants. Alternative interpretation: Or.. you know, focusing on the interest of US, which does not automatically mean sending unlimited amount of money/gear/intelligence to Ukraine. After all, Ukraine is not part of NATO. There are no obligations to follow here. And Russia as an unfriendly country in future conflicts may complicate things further. Yes. There is an argument to be made about what happens afterwards in baltics, but those countries are part of NATO, which is a different consideration.
    • tim333 2y ago
      >There are no obligations to follow here The US did talk Ukraine into giving up its nukes in return for helping to protect it. Bit of an oopsie by Ukraine there.
      • A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
        Is it an accurate presentation of facts or a talking point? The nukes were not 'theirs' to begin with.
        • tim333 2y ago
          It's a simplification of reality. The nukes belonged to the Soviet Union of which Ukraine was a part. Mearsheimer to his credit said at the time Ukraine should keep some so as to avoid the situation we now have.
• FilosofumRex 2y ago
  [flagged]
• MichaelMoser123 2y ago
  I have a naive question, as a foreigner: do European leaders have any kind of leverage on their US allies?
  • cryptonector 2y ago
    [dead]
  • charlieyu1 2y ago
    No. But people will remember that no and realise that they need to arm themselves because allies can’t be relied. Next you will have nuclear arms race everywhere, particularly Europe and Asia. Is it what US wanted/don’t care? If not then it is the leverage
  • entropyneur 2y ago
    Europe could remind Trump that he's going to need our alliance if he plans to confront China. It looks less and less like he does though.
  • sublimefire 2y ago
    Europe is a very large market and ignoring it does not make much sense, countries buy high tech components and armaments and they are aligned in terms of export controls. Europeans have a lot of high tech products that are valued globally.
• sidcool 2y ago
  This is exactly why no country should rely on other country for their survival and security. Powerful nations have shown time and again in the past how they can abandon you at a drop of a hat. Never ever rely on other country for your safety, you'll be screwed. Imagine your country being usurped because people in some another country voted for someone who may have ties with your enemy.
• imagetic 2y ago
  [flagged]
• horns4lyfe 2y ago
  Astounding how quickly all the liberals here were convinced to become neocons nearly overnight out of spite over Trump. All this talk about “soft power”, one user below even bemoaned the end of the “US hegemony”. Unreal
  • bashback 2y ago
    Do you feel better about yourself now?
    • A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
      Where is he wrong?
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• j_timberlake 2y ago
  Could all of this have been avoided if USA voters had been given a slice of USA's GDP growth over the years? Rising wages, lower taxes, or 35 hour work weeks, instead of stagnation and inflation. So they wouldn't turn to a populist outsider.
  • anonfordays 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • torlok 2y ago
      The people got tricked into thinking that a transitioned male competing in a 3rd league of a sport nobody watches is a larger threat to them than giving more power to the rich.
      • anonfordays 2y ago
        No one thinks that's a "threat", they just rejected the party that's pushing the Big Lie that men can get pregnant. The people didn't get tricked into voting for a party that hates them.
        • anonfordays 2y ago
          Not sure why my GP post was flagged, it was upvoted. I simply stated: The election was a referendum on the economy and woke/DEI. The people rejected the left's new religion.
  • nlitened 2y ago
    Anybody can get a slice of USA’s GDP growth — just buy S&P500. Too many people instead prefer to spend that money on Uber Eats and new iPhone every year.
• rmk 2y ago
  The uncomfortable truth Donald Trump is finally articulating forcefully is that Europe built its welfare state under the US security umbrella, but then started getting cocky with antitrust actions, restricting American companies' access to their markets etc, while simultaneously doing next to nothing to secure their own neighborhood by investing in defense (France being a notable exception). Even if we charitably assume that they took 50 years to build back up from the destruction of world war 2, they have wasted the next 20-30 years with zero preparation or thought about their own defense. No one did a thing when Crimea was taken. In fact, there was simply no firm response after Russia shot down the airplane brazenly. In fact, leaders such as Merkel further increased dependence on Russia by importing gas and integrating them deeply into Germany and many other EU countries' economies! Staggering incompetence and frank delusion!
  • entropyneur 2y ago
    I agree with your characterization of Europe's actions. However, belittling Ukraine and siding with the aggressor to make a point with europeans is not "articulating forcefully". It's bullying.
• froggertoaster 2y ago
  I know this will get lost, but regardless- Read the comments on this thread. Then read this post by Dan, where he explains why the post isn't ranked higher: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835 TLDR: lots of flags on this thread, despite the overwhelming number of comments that tend in one direction. Think about that.
• evo_9 2y ago
  Fill video is worth watching: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxbGjvcdyY&pp=ygUbZnVsbCB6ZWxlbnNreSB0cnVtcCBtZWV0aW5n https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxbGjvcdyY&pp=ygUbZnVsbCB6ZWx...
• morphle 2y ago
  Before you debate (what was said in) this meeting I think you should look at the full recording first. I saw edited versons where the meaning of the 'spat' was changed by leaving out the context. This Dutch NOS news version [1] is longer than the BBC version and it is enlightening. Il'll try to search for a version that has the total recording (this version misses the opening remarks) from start to finish and still without any editing (this version has no editing cuts). If I find a longer one I'll comment below. The comments of Trump and Vance where way out of line if you consider they where in response to Zelensky stating in the very beginning that you should understand that Putin allready invaded in 2014 and has never honored any agreements or ceasefires before (especially not between 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine but also with other countries). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7THU0jPM7l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7THU0jPM7l4
  • raziel2p 2y ago
    enlightening how exactly?
  • morphle 2y ago
    A little bit more of the oval office exchange but still not the fully integral recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOv4x_FIsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOv4x_FIsc
• walterbell 2y ago
  Full video (49:22), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajxSWocbye8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajxSWocbye8
  • unraveller 2y ago
    Unfortunately both WSJ and The Hill call their ~10 minute argument edit the "full video" on YT and most people won't see the full exchange. The first thing Trump says in the official stream is that they've had their negotiation spats before and are stronger for it.
    • walterbell 2y ago
      Limited coverage of earlier Friday morning meeting with Senators, https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/zelenskyy-meets-bipartisan-group-senators-ahead-tense-white/story?id=119305439 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/zelenskyy-meets-bipartisan-g... & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKW2XJxyW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKW2XJxyW4 11:15 am Fri 28 tweet by Senator (D), "will not support a fake peace agreement": https://x.com/chrismurphyct/status/1895508100595204115 https://x.com/chrismurphyct/status/1895508100595204115
• Vaslo 2y ago
  Sone real tech news here
  • dang 2y ago
    HN isn't just for 'tech news' - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. More explanation elsewhere in this thread: https://inference-review.com/article/time-travelers https://inference-review.com/article/time-travelers
• snickerbockers 2y ago
  What is actually the projected end-game of people who support this war? It's been three years and ukraine has struggled to make any significant progress at retaking its territory. It should be clear by now that they can't return to their 2014 or even 2022 borders unless the countries backing them become directly involved in a potentially apocalyptic war against Russia, and I haven't seen anybody who wants that, not even the countries clutching their pearls over this incident. The only three possible outcomes at this point are total Russian victory, peace treaty, and WW3. It's not realistic to think Ukraine will ever bring Russia to its knees on its own.
  • tim333 2y ago
    If the west crank up things already happening - stopping Russia's oil trade and blowing it it's refineries etc - it would probably get so weak economically that it couldn't really continue the war. At that point you could make a deal, or maybe the Russian government would change or decide it has better things to do. The trouble with just signing a piece of paper is Putin tends to just ignore those.
    • snickerbockers 2y ago
      I suppose that could work assuming the russkies don't respond to a direct attack on their refineries by escalating to nuclear war, but even so nobody's even trying that. Ukraine is too busy fighting for survival with what scarce resources they have, and none of their backers are even talking about joining the war as true allies. My point is, it seems like everybody at some subconscious level sees this as Ukraine's problem alone, because even their most ardent supporters aren't treating Putin ss the grave international threat they call him rhetorically. Trump's being pragmatic by trying to end the war on terms that can at least preserve what's left of Ukraine as an independent nation.
  • lawn 2y ago
    No, Russia's economy is hurting bad and it's entirely reasonable to say that a fourth option is the collapse of the Russian economy and military.
• rcdwealth 2y ago
  [dead]
• mpreda 2y ago
  Impeach Trump.
• mikewarot 2y ago
  Trump and his administration seem hell bent on undoing everything that's held the world together since WWII. We in the US are going to pay the price, as we lose the privilege of having the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency, while at the same time our nations institutions are destroyed from the inside in a deliberate act of sabotage. We're going to see our standard of living drop by 80% or more because of this. 8(
  • tim333 2y ago
    I don't think it'll be that bad unless they manage nuclear war. It's kind of a shame though.
• somethoughts 2y ago
  Found the following insightful: Lines on Maps - Oval Office Meltdown: The Trump-Zelensky Split, Europe's Response, and the Fate of the Ukraine War https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_AfqDfPek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_AfqDfPek
• meitham 2y ago
  This is what you get when you put two former TV personalities in public offices and have them argue their cases in front of cameras , diplomacy takes a back seat and their ego and posture become the main focus
• apotropaic 2y ago
  Had no idea how far left leaning hn was :(... It's like everyone on here is in a giant echo chamber, saying and thinking the exact same way. Is that not concerning to any of you?
  • FiberBundle 2y ago
    This has nothing to do with being left-leaning. If you disagree with HN's sentiment here, it just means as you have completely lost the plot.
  • cbg0 2y ago
    As much as social media will try to ingrain this into you, people are not just "right" or "left" and you'll find plenty of conservatives in the US that are not in agreement with Trump's stance on distancing from old allies and not helping Ukraine, and that doesn't make them "left-wing", "libtards" or other slurs.
    • apotropaic 2y ago
      I'm not on social media but thanks. My views about HN come from the last few months of almost all top news stories top comments involve trump and or musk bashing if any leap to them can be made. This story was just particularly one sided in the comments. You say Trump is distancing but the reality is, Ukraine people are dying and he's the only one to offer and off ramp and not endless bloodshed. It's as of nobody in this thread values human life, only important thing is orange man and Putin bad. What Putin did sucks and but it has been happening throughout all human history. The solution is not endless bloodshed. Any offramp and chance at peace should be welcomed by anyone one values life.
      • goatlover 2y ago
        Would you be making the same argument if it was 3 years into Russia having invaded the US? Why shouldn't they want to continue fighting for their freedom? Why would they believe Putin will honor any peace deal, and not just use it to prepare for his next offensive?
• hyuh56 2y ago
  I can't believe so much war mongering is going on this site. So much support for perpetual war, US to become world police. A decade or so ago the sentiment was against these. Where are those people, did they change. If nations beleive this is a just war then they should send troops to the ground. Otherwise it seems like Ukraine citizens are sent to their graves while west is again virtue signalling.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I think you misinterpret peoples sentiments. They are mostly against war. Putin started this one so if you don't like war you want to see him stopped.
    • sgt 2y ago
      > Russia didn't start the war, Russia did. > If in March 2025, people still don’t understand that the war in Ukraine is a proxy war started by NATO, you are either biased or utterly stupid. All the documents are freely available. I had a discussion with someone yesterday. I said Russia started the war, but his argument is completely the opposite. People actually believe this and it's getting harder to convince them otherwise.
      • iszomer 2y ago
        Would it have mattered anyway? I don't know all the specific nuances and context that led to it nor understand what it may lead to. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG2dTDIGjaM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG2dTDIGjaM
        • sgt 2y ago
          Another one spreading Russian propaganda. Well done.
          • iszomer 2y ago
            How would it be? Please constructively clarify.
• fmxsh 2y ago
  From HN guidelines: > Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, [...], unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. What is the interesting new phenomenon this is supposed to be evidence of? (The question is not intended to be a statement.)
  • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    A complete backflip of US foreign policy, representing an escalation of the potential for an historic changing of the world order. That's all.
    • fmxsh 2y ago
      Thank you for your answer. As a casual observer, I was genuinely curious. I am not well-versed in foreign policy, so I'll leave it at that.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I have to say, and I'm 61 and have always followed the news, I've never seen anything like it. Kind of a Jerry Springer shouting match in the Oval Office. It's a new one on me. I just watched the video and it was normal until Vance started shouting a bunch of stuff at Zelensky.
• leftcenterright 2y ago
  In the UN resolution, US did not even dare "condemning" Moscow's actions and supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity. They did not even have to do anything but use words, a mere symbolic gesture. It is shameful. https://www.npr.org/2025/02/24/g-s1-50473/un-ukraine-resolution-russia https://www.npr.org/2025/02/24/g-s1-50473/un-ukraine-resolut...
• surume 2y ago
  Ukraine just lost the war. Europe has no weapons to give them. They will now have no money from the USA. Zelensky was stupid and he bit the hand that fed him. Now he must live in shame and watch his country be conquered by Russia. I think Putin will change the name of Ukraine after he wins. What do you think he will call that land?
  • balamatom 2y ago
    He'll name it after you, obviously.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I'm not so sure about that. Russia's forces are quite depleted and Europe probably isn't quite as hopeless as you suggest.
• StarterPro 2y ago
  They're both clearly bought. Why else would you have the cameras in there for that long, and act that way in front of said cameras. I'd hate to be Rubio or anyone else trying to actually do their job. It stopped being a Red/Blue issue after the polls closed, this is a issue for the country as a whole.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    Rubio has since done at least one interview regurgitating Trump's and Vance's positions, so he's sold the entirety of his soul. He doesn't appear to deserve any sympathy.
  • OhioMan2943 2y ago
    Is it just like extensive child molestation tapes by donald trump by k-/gb, stroking his ego, a lifetime guarantee of russian indulgence and young russian escorts? Proof of him sexually abusing his daughter? I just don't get it.
    • wilsonjholmes 2y ago
      Could you point me to reports about this? I would like to read them.
    • taberiand 2y ago
      There is no Kompromat that could ruin Trump at this point They are doing it because they want to.
  • mpreda 2y ago
    The democratic system of checks-and-balances of USA needs to act to contain the Trump individual. After all the current USA government system is not a dictature and thus Trump is not supposed to have dictatorial powers.
• whatshisface 2y ago
  I don't think anyone has made the simplest observation, which is that Zelenskyy is not groveling because the survival of his country now depends on his credibility with other allies. Seriously - why would he want to send submissive signals?
  • lawn 2y ago
    Especially important as Ukraine (unfortunately) only received help because they managed to defend themselves. If they had rolled over for the Russians, like Trump wanted Zelensky to do, they wouldn't had received the support they have. No, the reality is that to receive help you need to be strong yourself.
• czhu12 2y ago
  A couple other ripple effects that could shape the next decade with Americas new position 1. The nuclear deterrence of mutually assured destruction that’s been in place for half a century is no longer “assured” if the U.S. isn’t seen to be reliable. I have to imagine the second priority after upholding Ukraine is a European arms race, so that at least the sum of European warheads and delivery capabilities matches Russian ones. 2. There’s a fringe pro unification group in Taiwan that advocates for reunification with China on friendly rather than hostile terms. It will be seen if that group raises in prominence after these spectacles.
  • aurareturn 2y ago
    If the people of Taiwan still don't see that they're being used as a sacrificial lamb to slow down China's economic rise, maybe they'll see it now.
• thewileyone 2y ago
  Two Karens yelling at a man, "Do you know who I am?" That's the impression and its really shameful and embarrassing.
• dogethrowaway42 2y ago
  [dead]
• codedokode 2y ago
  I wonder, giving the situation in the world, do you agree that Iran's and North Korea decision to develop weapon of mass destruction was the right idea in hindsight? Because the one who is weak gets bullied.
• Paradigma11 2y ago
  There is a pretty good chance this set off the countdown to a war in Asia. Japan, SK, Taiwan, Philippines..... now KNOW that they cant rely on the US as an ally which means their only chance against Chinese hegemony is a nuclear weapon. Given that that will take some years while a weak US president is at the helm this is the window for China to invade Taiwan.
• iamEAP 2y ago
  Think a lot of people here are missing the forest for the trees. We are witnessing the collapse of the unipolar world order that has brought relative freedom and prosperity to most of the world for the last three and a half decades. I don’t know what comes next. No one does. But Europe needs a deep-rethink of a lot more than just defense if it wants to have any say in what the next world order is going to look like. Otherwise, we’re looking at four decades of less peace and less prosperity.
  • kakadu 2y ago
    > that has brought relative freedom and prosperity to most of the world for the last three and a half decades. What an incredible take. I cannot possibly think of a US intervention that went well for the receiving end.
    • throwaway290 2y ago
      Off the top of my head apartheid in South Africa, ethnic cleansing of Albanians and genocide in Serbia, WWII... maybe indirectly, end of oppressive horrible USSR where I was born
    • rKarpinski 2y ago
      > I cannot possibly think of a US intervention that went well for the receiving end. Germany, Japan and the post WW2 order in question are probably the best candidates.
    • IAmGraydon 2y ago
      [flagged]
    • 42772827 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system
    • ponector 2y ago
      USA did not intervent into 2014 Crimea annexation and here we are. And don't forget Ukraine gave up nukes for security assurances from USA, UK and rusia. As we can see now, it was a mistake. Declaration means little
• lionradio 2y ago
  The free world needs a new leader.
• spinlock_ 2y ago
  Man, as an European I have the hope that this utterly bizarre and embarassing spectacle yesterday is finally waking us up and we start taking our fate into our own hands. Personally, I would do without a lot of things instead of having to watch europe being paraded around by a narcissist.
• abrolhos 2y ago
  What we saw on TV was just a glimpse of what actually already happens behind closed doors.
• svara 2y ago
  If you're one of the US allies in Asia, feeling threatened by China, what do you conclude from this? This looks like a major strategic blunder.
  • lawgimenez 2y ago
    I’m from the Philippines and there are already talks of concerns regarding our mutual defense treaty with the US. Taiwan is just above us and for sure can be easily sucked into a war.
    • _t9ow 2y ago
      > concerns regarding our mutual defense treaty with the US I'm curious: Is there now widespread concern, or is this mainly a partisan issue among Filipino politicians? Are there any Filipino media reports discussing this issue that you'd recommend to me?
      • lawgimenez 2y ago
        Concerns are not public but I am basing this on popular Filipino forums and Facebook groups which is very pro-US. I mean majority of us our very pro-US. Filipino media is not that great here, it sucks but I can't remember an opinion piece recommending we nuke up until this article below. https://usa.inquirer.net/167208/with-trumps-new-world-order-should-the-philippines-nuke-up https://usa.inquirer.net/167208/with-trumps-new-world-order-...
  • saghm 2y ago
    At this point, it seems like considering yourself a "US ally" is a strategic blunder. There's no reason to expect any sort of loyalty based on shared interests or collective security; I don't even think it's purely transaction at this point, because the entire pretense of the meeting with Zelensky was a demand for an absolutely absurd deal on mineral rights[0]. US foreign policy seems to be just as much about ego as anything else, and if you're not sufficiently deferential, it doesn't matter what you bring to the table. [0]: $500 billion in minerals, which is around seven times the value of all of the aid given to Ukraine so far: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/20/stop-criticising-trump-and-sign-500bn-mineral-deal-us-official-advises-kyiv https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/20/stop-criticisi...
• nikolayasdf123 2y ago
  thank god we have trump
• nikolayasdf123 2y ago
  is HN flooded with bots from ukraine propaganda machine? or is this just woke left?
  • tim333 2y ago
    Maybe is just has thoughtful people who are against mass murder?
    • user3939382 2y ago
      Therefore they want Ukrainian men to continue dying in a war they never had a chance of winning?
      • trymas 2y ago
        How much time Putin will need to break Minsk’s third ceasefire agreement?
        • user3939382 2y ago
          Ukraine violated it last time and Merkel admitted they never intended to honor it.
• hnbad 2y ago
  Media reporting on this feels extremely misleading if you actually watched the full clip. Zelenskiy remains remarkably calm throughout the entire ordeal. Things only really get "angry" when JD Vance tries to provoke him only for him to calmy respond and be cut off immediately by Trump as soon as he hints at the US not being immune to physical risks from adversaries just because there's a body of water around it. Trump then goes completely off the rails saying things like "you don't get to dictate to us how we feel" or some nonsense like that. It seems that the line he crossed was suggesting that the US is a part of geopolitics, not just an immortal observer with the option to intervene and participate as they see fit with no risk of consequences. This wasn't a disagreement over Russia, this was a disagreement over American isolationism and the mirage of American invulnerability that I thought had been disproven at least since 9/11.
• crossroadsguy 2y ago
  From Wikipedia. Just as a cliched reminder: > In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia for dismantlement and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for economic compensation and security assurances from Russia, the United States, United Kingdom and France to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. Years later, Russia, one of the parties to the agreement, invaded Ukraine. I live in the upper part of India and I suspect I could have been taking forced Chinese lessons right now if a woman, decades ago, who was called a bitch by a US secretary of state, didn't decide to say 'fuck it!' and went ahead with her plans to have our own modest nukes. Would this world have been better off if no one had nukes? Of course, yes. I do believe so. Would we (the world; not just India) have been better off with just USA, Russia, France, UK, China having nukes? Fuck no!!! And I have a foreboding feeling the list is not going to stop with Pakistan, NK, and that undeclared member of this club. Also, I just hope South Africa has no reasons in the future to regret. And then: I mean - does anyone else not find the very fucking idea of NPT ridiculous? You can't have nukes, we have and we will keep having it? Why? Just because. Come, sign this now. Assurances? Yeah, maybe. What the actual fuck!
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
• dethos 2y ago
  I'm still digesting what I've “witnessed” yesterday. I have no words for it, I'm baffled. Time to re-think…
• dade_ 2y ago
  Horrific diplomacy failure. These are usually pleasant photo ops because the work was already done behind the scenes. Incompetence is on full display. Story I understand is the Rubio thought he had a deal, but clearly didn't. JD Vance should be kept out of the room, he is out of his depth and his behaviour abhorrent. And Trump's kiss the ring makes me sick to stomach. Why America wants a King after a bloody revolution to get rid of the last one is puzzling to say the least.
• questinthrow 2y ago
  The elephant in the room is that America doesnt want Russia to lose. Russia is basically America's dog, used to scare European countries in spending either 2% or soon maybe 5% of their GDP to america in order to be "protected". It's a racket and both the USA and Russia are colluding.
  • tim333 2y ago
    I think it makes more sense that Biden at any rate didn't want Russia to lose in case it collapsed into nuclear armed anarchy.
• matthewconnell 2y ago
  [dead]
• skc 2y ago
  I'm not clear on why Trump threatened that Zelensky was risking a world war. It seems to me that Trump and Putin are effectively allies at this point so what exactly would trigger World War 3 in his mind.
• hmm9900 2y ago
  Hard not to think Zelensky wants Ukraine war to leak out to Europe. This was the case when Ukrainian army shot rockets above Polish terriory resulting in two deaths, Ukraine never apologized. Same as they proclaimed Stepan Bandera their national hero, honestly crimes committed by germans during wwII were nothing compared to what UPA led by Bandera did. I hope this war will be soon over.
  • tim333 2y ago
    It seems the S-300 missile hitting a grain silo in Poland was an accident, and the Banderea stuff was a while ago.
    • throwaway0102 2y ago
      Crimes against humanity never expire. And Zelensky's attitude towards allies earned him well deserved response.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• jumpman_miya 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • dang 2y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Normally we'd just ban an account that has been posting like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=jumpman_miya https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=jumpman_miya, but your account is 7 years old and I don't want to ban it without at least giving you a chance! If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
• dtj1123 2y ago
  [dead]
• iashishagarwal 2y ago
  While this meeting went really bad, and US leadership was pathetic, US could have been the adults in the room. Let’s look at the other side for a minute, 1/ Zelensky rejects the idea of stepping down after White House spat - Is Zelensky the right leader from here on ? 2/ Zelensky needs a bench to deal with different personalities, he showed up in his usual style hoping for compassion. Trump was clearly unkind but he should have chosen his words carefully , practiced what works for this president 3/ What is the end game for Ukraine? No one is winning this war in fact Russia has support of both China and India. They can’t expect US to go into direct conflict with Russia
• he0001 2y ago
  Can someone explain what Trump means by that there’s a ”world war 3 in the pot”?
  • tim333 2y ago
    Dunno exactly but there has been WW3 talk from the start. eg https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/world-war-iii-has-begun-west-not-prepared-for-it-says-ukraines-former-military-commander/ https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/world-war-iii-has-beg... A bit overdone in my opinion.
• ulrischa 2y ago
  Propably just a show to make the EU swing by helping the poor Ukraine
• beej71 2y ago
  My hot take on this is that Zelensky knew going in that Trump was never going to back him after the secret Russian peace talks. So he went in hard looking for the live fight they had in order to wake up European leaders for additional support.
  • reaperducer 2y ago
    My hot take on this The last thing the world needs now are "hot takes." Save the hot takes for Reddit.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• meetkevin 2y ago
  [dead]
• baxuz 2y ago
  The most important defense that the EU can make at this moment is to block off Russian access to European Internet and regulate all social media to stop Russian propaganda This is the culmination of 10 years of hybrid warfare via disinformation and propaganda.
• midoreigh 2y ago
  "Somewhere Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe’s problems are the world’s problems but the world’s problems are not Europe’s problems." European elites and American military industrial complex inching towards Russia using NATO is the problem. World won't go to war over this because unlike World War I and II, rest of the world are not Europe's colony. American people elected Trump to say the same. They too are unwilling to fight for the European elites. This is not world's problem. Only EU have to handle it.
• FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Really amazing how much of current reality consists of direct 1-1 plot points in Babylon 5. Not like some Simpsons reference, but entire season story arcs. I think we are up to Season 3, Ep 9. The president will declare martial law, and will issue executive order to dissolve the senate.
• throwaway48476 2y ago
  Anyone not starting a nuclear weapons program right now is a fool.
• hypothesis 2y ago
  Congratulations on hitting 5k posts on a Fyre-level topic!
• jbirer 2y ago
  As someone who agrees with cutting back some of the funding to Ukraine, this could've done in a much more professional and diplomatic manner. Arguing in front of televisions and interrupting Zelensky is just a bad look.
• develop7 2y ago
  Somehow it makes me quite certain US will not stall shipping latest and newest weapons to Russia, contrary to the way they did to Ukraine.