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Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- MangoToupe 1y agoIt feels like the two extremes in this country are not partisan, but rather "extremely angry" and "we can't do anything". A very bad combination.
- ncr100 1y agoIt feels, to me, like "democratic decline". We see increasing authoritarianism and decreasingly functional institutions, including the electoral system. Identifying the problem is key.
- deepsquirrelnet 1y agoIt’s also an easy situation to manipulate. I see a lot of people eager to make assumptions about things that are not known. That is also a very predictable response if you live in this country.
- petabyt 1y agoPrayers for Charlie and his family, violence against people you disagree with is never the answer
- quantified 1y ago[flagged]
- timeon 1y agoNot sure why is this down-voted? Seems reasonable.
- amradio1989 1y agoIts not reasonable at all. I wouldn't downvote it, but its devoid of facts and is loaded with false premises. I'm tempted to call it rage-bait, but I choose to assume the poster meant no harm.
- quantified 1y agoI intend motivation to choose actions that might make a difference. Can anyone make the case that prayer actually works? Consider the massacre of children actually praying at a Catholic school a couple weeks ago. Was that the result of someone praying for it to happen? Was any deity looking out for its flock? Whereas making guns a lot harder to obtain would definitely reduce gun usage.
- amradio1989 1y agoFirst, my bad. I owe you an apology. I'm sorry for treating you like that. There are millions of eyewitness accounts and personal testimonies about prayer. They are exceedingly well documented (esp. in books) and span nearly all of human history. Whether you believe them or not is a different matter. But at the very least, we can't easily dismiss prayer as something that "doesn't work". Second, even if we accept that "prayer" works, there's a ton of questions that raises. Does all prayer work? What if the prayers are contrary? And who are people praying to? And do all receivers of prayer actually have the power to answer prayer? For those that do, what happens when prayers are contrary to each other? What happens when the prayers are contrary to the will of the one being prayed to? I'm only bringing up these questions to illustrate that we can't say "prayer doesn't work" as a matter of fact, even in instances where it doesn't seem to work.
- catlover76 1y ago[dead]
- peder 1y agoBecause it's talking past each other. Very few people are literally asking for divine intervention, they're conveying wishes for a good outcome
- logicchains 1y agoI'd wager you not a single right-winger saw that video and thought "we need to ban guns". They're thinking "I need more guns to protect me from this kind of leftist violence".
- treetalker 1y agoIs there evidence that the motive of this act was some clear "leftist" position?
- slater 1y agoNot yet, and might not be, but when has that ever stopped them?
- Whoppertime 1y agoWe rarely hear about motives. Paddock was responsible for the deadliest shooting in American history. We never got a motive. We got a bumpstock ban which was deemed unconstitutional
- myvoiceismypass 1y agoLoud voices on the right are already assuming and saying that, essentially making it the new truth whether that’s correct or not.
- TimorousBestie 1y agoThe second amendment fundamentalists are decidedly thawing. I expect at least some of them are thinking, “we need to ban guns from those people” for some value of “those people.” The response to the last high-profile public shooting was, if you’ll recall, noise in the DoJ about taking gun rights away from transgender people. So some kinds of gun control are apparently on the table.
- jeffbee 1y ago[flagged]
- lovich 1y ago[flagged]
- JacobThreeThree 1y agoSo your criticism of him is that "I assume that he called for violence even though I have no evidence that he did"?
- lovich 1y agoYea it was, and as multiple other people in this thread then followed up with links on, turns out I was correct.
- Sparkle-san 1y ago[flagged]
- noarchy 1y agoFrom the article: “ Kirk went on to say, “And by the way, if some amazing patriot out there in San Francisco or the Bay Area wants to really be a midterm hero, someone should go and bail this guy out … Bail him out, and then go ask him some questions.” "
- lynndotpy 1y agoI agree that Charlie Kirk was both responsible for fomenting political violence and was the victim of political violence, but I disagree with the causal suggestion. I think it's more likely to be the opposite. When he said gun deaths are an acceptable price to pay for gun rights, I think that must have come from a position of never imagining he'd be far less likely to be one of the deaths.
- xyzzzzzzz 1y ago[dead]
- treetalker 1y agoI agree that we should not try to resolve America's current problems with violence. (And to be clear, I am an ardent pacifist and urge change in the ways of King, Gandhi, etc.) Still, violence has been the answer in many (most?) political revolutions, including the American revolution and separation from Britain.
- jeffbee 1y agoAnd the American civil war.
- shadowgovt 1y agoDepending on how you turn the lens, the Civil War is an excellent example of violence not being the answer. The Confederacy tried to replace their Constitutional government and the policies instituted by the leaders elected by the people with a violence-enforced new state inside the territory of their existing one and got (justifiably) multi-generationally brutalized for their trouble. The town I grew up in and moved away from was still raising funds to rebuild some of the places that were burned to the ground in the war. That was fundraising in the 1980s. Every time someone points to the 1776 war as a success story I feel compelled to point out that half the descendants of that war's victors tried a very similar thing in 1861 to absolutely ruinous result. (On this topic: Fort Sumter is an interesting story. While it was never taken during the war, it basically became a target-practice and weapons field-test location for the Union navy: every time they had a new technique or a new cannon they wanted to try out, they'd try it on the fort. By the end of the war, the fort was "standing" only in the sense that the bulk of its above-ground works had been blasted flat and were shoved together into an earthworks bunker; the Confederates were basically sheltering in a hole that a lobbed shell could fall into at any time. And while the fort and its northways sister kept Union ships out of the harbor, it didn't stop them from firing past the fort into Charleston itself, since "war crimes" and "civilian populations" weren't really a concept yet. People very much went into that war thinking there wouldn't be consequences for ordinary folk. They were very much wrong.)
- lazyasciiart 1y ago
- harimau777 1y ago[flagged]
- briandw 1y ago[flagged]
- DrillShopper 1y agoNo, pointing out someone being odious does not equate to saying they deserve it. This incident additionally is darkly ironic because of his thoughts on gun violence: https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-says-gun-deaths-worth-it-2nd-amendment-1793113 https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-says-gun-deaths-worth-... To make it clear - I am pretty much politically diametrically opposed to Charlie Kirk, but I don't think he should have been shot.
- thinkingtoilet 1y ago[flagged]
- briandw 1y agoIt's a simple matter of 2 wrongs not making it right. How can you in the same sentence say that Kirk is wrong for endorsing violence, while at the same time endorsing this shooting?
- thinkingtoilet 1y ago[flagged]
- myvoiceismypass 1y agoNo one here is “endorsing” the shooting. Simply pointing out that empathy is not a guarantee in life.
- myvoiceismypass 1y ago
- potsandpans 1y ago[flagged]
- animitronix 1y ago[flagged]
- mattstir 1y agoThat sentiment comes across a bit oddly... if the people in power in Germany hadn't started using terror and violence against those they didn't like, WWII wouldn't have happened.
- vlovich123 1y ago[flagged]
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- lvl155 1y agoI agree with you. Violence is never the answer. Same goes for all the wars including the ones going on right now. And same for implicit and explicit violence and physical harm to make money.
- esarbe 1y agoWhile what you say is true; you don't know anything about the shooter or the motive.
- Cornbilly 1y ago"I think empathy is a made up New Age term that does a lot of damage" - Charlie Kirk
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- npteljes 1y agoThoughts and prayers with the victim, and his family, along with everyone at the Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah.
- bell-cot 1y ago[flagged]
- layman51 1y agoEarlier this year, he was also the guest on the first full episode of the "This Is Gavin Newsom" podcast.
- hellosputnik 1y agoI assure you that anyone who is wondering "who?" also has access to search engines and Wikipedia.
- sockaddr 1y agoIf anyone is wondering "what is a wikipedia?" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia
- ripped_britches 1y agoFor those lost by the parent comment: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_(emotion) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_(emotion)
- tim333 1y agoAs to understanding his place in US culture I found watching the recent South Park episode Got A Nut where he is parodied helpful.
- hunglee2 1y agoWhichever side of whatever fence you're on, it's universally a bad thing when politicians, political activists and political representatives get assassinated.
- jeffbee 1y ago[flagged]
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- lovich 1y agoAs if any answer to that question on a public forum won’t be moderated to oblivion
- alchemical_piss 1y ago[flagged]
- alchemical_piss 1y ago[flagged]
- the_cat_kittles 1y ago[flagged]
- jobs_throwaway 1y agoplease give us a few
- ddddang 1y ago[dead]
- idontwantthis 1y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y agoJust to be clear, that's Kirk's own position. "I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational." - https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-says-gun-deaths-worth-it-2nd-amendment-1793113 https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-says-gun-deaths-worth-...
- idontwantthis 1y ago[flagged]
- foxygen 1y ago[flagged]
- vik0 1y agoAm I wrong in thinking this guy isn't/wasn't a very influential person, outside of Twitter and the people that stay on there 24/7? If so, why even target the poor guy? What change was the person who shot him hoping to elicit? Either way, I hope he makes it, even though it looks like it was a fatal blow
- phendrenad2 1y agoI think his clips were consistently viral on platforms like Tiktok, YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, etc., both by those who agreed with him and those who were doing reaction videos against him.
- peder 1y ago[flagged]
- hypeatei 1y agoHe ran a very large conservative organization that operates on college campuses across the country. He's definitely an influential figure.
- ceejayoz 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_Point_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_Point_USA > TPUSA has been described as the fastest growing organization of campus chapters in America, and according to The Chronicle of Higher Education, is the dominant force in campus conservatism. They've been quite influential, and those campus efforts likely contributed to the Gen Z turnout that helped win in 2024.
- myth_drannon 1y agoAs of 3:39PM ET, CNN is reporting shot and Wikipedia has already a death date.
- bell-cot 1y agoI'm not seeing that death date. And history shows that even traditional news outlets can be badly wrong in the immediate aftermath of a shooting. James Brady didn't die in 1981 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brady#Shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brady#Shooting - even with "all major media outlets" (per Wikipedia) saying that he did.
- cloudfudge 1y agoKirk's wikipedia page is currently abuzz with edits and reversions of those edits, many of which are pronouncing him dead.
- rkomorn 1y agoI'm convinced there are people whose first thought when someone dies is to race to update Wikipedia for some definition of clout. I find it weird, at best.
- seivan 1y ago[dead]
- FergusArgyll 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiJackal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiJackal
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- Swoerd 1y ago[dead]
- jeffbee 1y ago> the person beside you in the supermarket etc can carry a lethal weapon that can end your life. On a population-weighted basis, this is not everyday life in America.
- cosmicgadget 1y agoIt's just a matter of time. After Heller and Bruen it is only a matter of time before local authority is stripped away.
- ceejayoz 1y ago> I get the good guy vs bad guy with a gun argument… Trump was shot surrounded by (in theory) some of the best-trained armed guards on the planet. Uvalde saw several hundred "good guys with a shitload of guns" mill around for over an hour while schoolchildren got massacred by a single shooter. I can't say I get it.
- roshin 1y ago* * *
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- pcj-github 1y agoIf this turns out to be real, a direct shot to the left carotid artery. Theoretically could be survivable but not without serious deficit and stroke. Agree likely fatal.
- tomrod 1y agoThe other indicators are pretty clearly a spinal shot. Extremely likely he is dead. I'm going to hug my family a little tighter tonight. 46th school shooting of the year, and the 47th also happening in Colorado.
- nicce 1y agoHe lost conscious immediately which is not explainable with blood loss alone that fast - which may indicate that there was a higher impact from the shot.
- FireBeyond 1y agoNot a physician, medical examiner, or the like. But a paramedic who has attended more than one fatality shooting. My educated wild ass guess is that hitting the neck with a high-velocity rifle would cause the shockwaves of the impact to be very, very close to the brainstem and to have a significant effect on it.
- nicce 1y agoI was trying to frame it differently - like - it must have hit some harder tissue before it can cause the shockwaves, right?
- aaomidi 1y ago[flagged]
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- tstrimple 1y ago[flagged]
- FergusArgyll 1y ago[flagged]
- tstrimple 1y agoHave you ever seen me advocate for aircraft deaths to justify the continued existence of human powered aviation? I'm sure you're trying to be clever, but you seem lack the requisite abilities.
- FergusArgyll 1y ago[flagged]
- alchemical_piss 1y ago[flagged]
- LarsDu88 1y agoWe have aircraft safety regulations to mitigate deaths from air accidents and we have gun regulations and gun safety regulations for the same reasons. Let's stop pretending this is a black and white matter
- ceejayoz 1y agoAircraft are very heavily regulated to prevent accidents. Any time there's a major incident we move heaven and earth to investigate and mitigate it so that particular failure doesn't happen again. As a result, US airlines have had one fatal crash in the last ~16 years or so.
- FergusArgyll 1y ago[flagged]
- water-data-dude 1y agoObviously witchcraft doesn't actually work, but the timing on this Jezebel article "We Paid Some Etsy Witches to Curse Charlie Kirk" is darkly comical. https://www.jezebel.com/we-paid-some-etsy-witches-to-curse-charlie-kirk https://www.jezebel.com/we-paid-some-etsy-witches-to-curse-c...
- mrtksn 1y agoThat's something I wonder about. Wouldn't people who believe in this stuff demand punishment for the publication and the witches? Let's say it wasn't witchcraft thing but something more widely accepted like prayer session at mainstream church/mosque or something of this sort. Wouldn't the devout people see this as a contract killing? What if the soother says he felt possessed? Shouldn't then he be let go in a religious society?
- netsharc 1y agoI guess it'd be for the courts to decide... But yesterday I saw the words "Supreme Court" and I thought about the "Supreme Ayatollah of Iran", who's a guy who says God speaks to him. And with our Supreme Court, who knows if they'll say witches casting spells are assassins after all.
- BugsJustFindMe 1y agoIt seems strange to me to say "but shouldn't people who believe in things that require a tremendous load of cognitive dissonance be more logically consistent?"
- hinkley 1y ago[flagged]
- shpx 1y agoHistorically, yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_witchcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_witchcraft
- autoexec 1y ago
- homeonthemtn 1y ago[flagged]
- tripplyons 1y agoViolence is not the answer to incivility. You should respond with civility and let democracy function.
- greedo 1y agoTolerating intolerance doesn't work out well...
- dionian 1y agoYet charlie used his words
- dttze 1y agoThe kind of mentality for those who do not understand power or know how to wield it.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoThis is exactly what Putin believes.
- xwowsersx 1y agoReally dislike this. It risks sounding like a justification, because even if it only means someone will inevitably react violently, its vagueness makes it read as though violence is excusable or natural. Not so. People can and should endure rudeness, even disgusting behavior, without throwing so much as a punch. Our entire legal system is built on the premise that violence is not the natural/inevitable outcome of incivility. Courts, contracts, and laws exist precisely to channel disputes, insults, etc. into nonviolent processes. If violence were the automatic consequence of rudeness, there'd be no point in having civil courts/workplace dispute procedures/defamation law... or even law enforcement protocols in general. The system assumes that people can and must respond to incivility without physical aggression and it punishes those who don't.
- OGEnthusiast 1y agoIf that video is real, the shooter had incredibly accurate aim.
- bena 1y agoIf a bullet hits, it has to hit somewhere. He could have been aiming for the skull for all we know. He could have been aiming for the chest. Hell, he could have been aiming for someone behind Kirk.
- BJones12 1y agoWe can be sure that the shooter was not aiming for the neck. Chest is more likely, but head is possible.
- RandomBacon 1y agoSupposedly the shot was taken from 200 yards away. In my nonprofessional opinion, that is crappy aim. I can hit an apple from 100 yards away, with a black powder rifle, with an unriffled bore, with iron sights, standing up, repeatedly. I would expect a modern rifle with a riffled bore and a scope and a larger target to be much more accurate from a prone position.
- greedo 1y ago[flagged]
- shhsshs 1y agoSarcasm noted. An apple would actually be more difficult to hit because of its reduced size.
- greedo 1y agoEveryone is underestimating how hard it is to willingly kill a person. Shooting a paper target or apple at a range is nothing like sighting on a person, letting out your breath and pulling a trigger.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- afavour 1y agoDon't want to talk in bad taste by going to this so early, but... this extremely unfortunate event is going to be a very telling test for the media and society at large. A Democratic state representative in Minnesota was brutally murdered and another attacked by the same man only a couple of months ago, back in June. How many can name them? How long did their deaths stay in the headlines? How much coverage were they given, and how much coverage will Kirk be given? My cynical side suspects we are about to hear a lot about "violence from the left" in a way we did not about the right back in June.
- phendrenad2 1y ago[flagged]
- bena 1y agoWe fail this test over and over and the fact that you don't realize it is telling in and of itself. Not as a remark on you, but on the media in general.
- antonymoose 1y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y agohttps://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/19/us/minnesota-shootings-vance-boelter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/19/us/minnesota-shootings-va... > Mr. Boelter developed a strong distrust of government, especially Democrats. According to Mr. Carlson, he believed that the criminal prosecutions of Donald J. Trump were politically motivated, and that a victory by the Democratic presidential candidate, Kamala Harris, would lead to civil war. He followed the Infowars website founded by the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. Mmkay.
- antonymoose 1y ago[flagged]
- cAtte_ 1y ago[flagged]
- iugtmkbdfil834 1y agoI have become something of a statist over the years and I apparently annoy a whole lot of people, when I argue for not upsetting the status quo much further. Needless to say, this obviously is not a good thing if you share that perspective with me. This is actual political violence. And it has little to do with guns. If someone really wanted to get to the guy, one would. The issue is further societal deterioration in basic standards. Let me reiterate. Violence is not the answer for one reason and one reason only. Once it starts and everyone joins, it will be very, very hard to stop. edit: be
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Once it starts and everyone joins, it will very, very hard to stop More directly, when violence becomes a normalized means of politics, it doesn’t benefit the bourgeoisie.
- iugtmkbdfil834 1y agoCross, I know we interacted before. I sincerely hope you do not advocate that ends justify the means. "The bourgeoisie" as you call them, will be fine ( more resources at their disposal to ensure that happens ). They always are fine. You know who actually does suffer? Regular people.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> "The bourgeoisie" as you call them, will be fine I meant the bourgeoisie as in the middle class. A lot of idiots think rolling out guillotines will hurt the rich and help the poor. It won’t. It almost never has in the last millennium. If violence becomes a tool of politics, the rich will command violence at greater scale and with more impunity than anyone who cannot command an audience at the White House.
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- nemo44x 1y agoTurning Point says he’s alive and in the hospital. https://x.com/tpointuk/status/1965864882731102215?s=46 https://x.com/tpointuk/status/1965864882731102215?s=46 Would be incredible if he pulled through. Looked fatal. Who knows if his spinal system was damaged as well. He has 2 young kids.
- nemo44x 1y agoConfirmed he’s dead.
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- ripped_britches 1y agoThe NSFW video is haunting, don’t watch it. I feel literally sick.
- rossant 1y agoYes. Don't.
- yifanl 1y agoFor anyone else who's accidentally watched the video and feels uncomfortable with the gore, immediately go do a high focus activity to not let it settle in your mind, can be something like Tetris.
- rossant 1y agoAny evidence it really works though?
- yifanl 1y agoAnecdotally, it worked for me, but I'm not really in the mood to look up the literature right now.
- pySSK 1y agoWorked for me. Played some chess online.
- autoexec 1y agoI've seen a paper or two supporting the claim, but I remember that I didn't put much faith in them at the time. Seems plausible enough though, and probably wouldn't hurt anyone so until there's a ton of of high quality evidence for it'd still be worth a shot.
- delecti 1y agoYes. There is better than anecdotal, though not rock solid conclusive, evidence that it works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_effect#Applications_in_trauma_therapy_and_cravings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_effect#Applications_in_...
- nothankyou777 1y agoPeople who get excited enough about politics in this country to shoot someone are stupid. Love him or hate him, Charlie is just somebody's puppet. If you see them on twitter or television, they are puppets. Puppeteers are smart enough to stay out of the spotlight. There is only one person in recent memory who was smart enough to go after a puppeteer.
- ludamn 1y agoOut of curiosity, who was this person? Which puppeteer they went after?
- rdtsc 1y ago> If you see them on twitter or television, they are puppets. Puppeteers are smart enough to stay out of the spotlight. There is only one person in recent memory who was smart enough to go after a puppeteer. Sounds like you know more than you're saying. So it's someone controlling him or blackmailing him or something? Who's puppet do you think he is? I never watched him and only vaguely remembered his name when it just hit the news.
- nothankyou777 1y ago[flagged]
- saulpw 1y agoNot to detract from your larger point, but if he had gotten a 'real job', it's almost certain the tab for that job would also be picked up by high-net-worth individuals and corporate benefactors. Except that job would be in the direct service of making them richer rather than promoting their ideology (which is probably in service of making them richer after all anyway). I mean wouldn't Fox News talking head count as a real job?
- nothankyou777 1y ago[flagged]
- locallost 1y ago[flagged]
- mensetmanusman 1y ago[flagged]
- j2bax 1y agoViolet, you're turning violet!
- ImJamal 1y agoI might just be ignorant, but which violence did he engage in?
- jsheard 1y ago[flagged]
- slg 1y ago[flagged]
- ImJamal 1y agoHe didn't wish for stuff like this to happen. He was saying that the 2nd amendment is more important than losing it even if some people die as a result. This is no different than many of us who think that the 1st amendment is worth retaining even if people use it to hire hitman or coordinate kidnappings and what not.
- klaff 1y agoWhat does the first amendment have to do with hiring a hit man?
- ImJamal 1y agoSorry, I wasn't clear. People support encryption saying they have the right to private communication and algorithms are protected under the first amendment. People use encrypted communication to do unsavory things like hiring hitmen, viewing child porn, etc.
- slg 1y agoPart of the problem with defining the 2nd amendment as a defense against tyranny, like Kirk did, is that none of us have any control over how one crazy individual defines tyranny. I don’t fear what that hypothetical crazy individual can do with their 1st amendment rights, but I do fear what they can do with their 2nd amendment rights.
- ImJamal 1y ago> I don’t fear what that hypothetical crazy individual can do with their 1st amendment rights Plenty of people use free speech to do bad things. Look at Trump using his rhetoric to get into power. Or outside the US you can see all sorts of crazy leaders gaining power.
- wnevets 1y ago[flagged]
- thatsadude 1y ago[flagged]
- nemo44x 1y agoUSA is outpacing everyone. I guess you hear things but the data and reality don’t really reflect that. America has problems like everyone but a declining empire it is not.
- wredcoll 1y ago> For people who seem to think this is what Kirk deserved because he said things from different view points, you need to reclaim yoursel Kirk both personally and as part of his group advocated for using violence to achieve goals. This doesn't make him particularly unique, but lets stop with this idea that speech exists in some kind of abstract realm with no bearing on "reality". There was a guy in vietnam about 70 years ago who made a lot of speeches about what he wanted to achieve and then a few million people died. It turns out words matter.
- thatsadude 1y ago[flagged]
- wredcoll 1y ago[flagged]
- mvdtnz 1y agoDo you have specific examples of Kirk himself advocating for violence?
- ceejayoz 1y agohttps://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/charlie-kirk-bail-out-alleged-paul-pelosi-attacker-1234621493/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/charlie-... > “Why has he not been bailed out?” Kirk said Monday on his podcast of the man who allegedly beat House Speaker Nancy Pelosi‘s husband Paul with a hammer last Friday. “By the way, if some amazing patriot out there in San Francisco or the Bay Area wants to really be a midterm hero, someone should go and bail this guy out, I bet his bail’s like thirty or forty thousand bucks.” With a smirk, he added: “Bail him out and then go ask him some questions.”
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- mapontosevenths 1y ago> Sandy Hook was really a turning point for America. What changed afterward? I would argue nothing at all. It wasn't a turning point it was a Friday like any other.
- jmyeet 1y agoNothing changed. That's the point. It was an event so horrific where 28 people died, mostly 6 and 7 year olds, and the US as a country chose the guns.
- netsharc 1y agoThe "virtual realities" people construct to deny actual reality is incredible. Like Alex Jones spouting stuff that those grieving parents are paid actors. Anything rather than accept the cold truth. At least I partially hope he believes his own stories, because if he knew he was just screaming lies about dead children into people's ears to earn money, then he's a psycopath (obviously that's also a possibility). I think people invent those realities so they can say their actions are moral and good, and in their reality, for example the Sandy Hook parents are the bad guys because they are part of a conspiracy to take Americans' guns. If anyone has 2h30m of free time, a good example of a man creating his own reality (and having it crumble bit by bit) is the subject of the documentary The Act of Killing, someone who murdered thousands of people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJZb2Q1NmE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kJZb2Q1NmE The director convinced him and his friends to make a movie about their actions (which they proudly boast about anyway), and one scene in the movie has the song "Born Free", "angels" dancing, and the killer being thanked by his "victims", for saving their souls from Communism and sending them to heaven by killing them...
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- RickJWagner 1y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y agoEveryone? https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/charlie-kirk-bail-out-alleged-paul-pelosi-attacker-1234621493/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/charlie-... > “Why has he not been bailed out?” Kirk said Monday on his podcast of the man who allegedly beat House Speaker Nancy Pelosi‘s husband Paul with a hammer last Friday. “By the way, if some amazing patriot out there in San Francisco or the Bay Area wants to really be a midterm hero, someone should go and bail this guy out, I bet his bail’s like thirty or forty thousand bucks.” With a smirk, he added: “Bail him out and then go ask him some questions.”
- RickJWagner 1y agoMy point is that when Kirk engaged people in debate, he fought with ideas and logic. ( Check the numerous video shorts posted. ) We need more people like Charlie Kirk, and less violent thugs. Martin Luther Kings niece has just posted the Kirk has won. When a person is martyred, they will be remembered for the merits of their arguments.
- ceejayoz 1y agoHe fought with bad faith and Gish gallops. That’s certainly better than doing it with punches, but MLK he wasn’t.
- RickJWagner 1y agoHe spoke his mind and invited dialogue without violence. He was killed by the same attitude that led to school shootings, political assassination attempts, and Tesla scratching. These people are the worst of humanity, they are vile scum.
- 1y ago
- dang 1y agoAll: if you can't respond in a non-violent way, please don't post until you can. By non-violent I mean not celebrating violence nor excusing it, but also more than that: I mean metabolizing the violence you feel in yourself, until you no longer need to express it aggressively. The feelings we all have about violence are strong and fully human and I'm not judging them. I believe it's our responsibility to each carry our own share of these feelings, rather than firing them at others, including in the petty forms that aggression takes on an internet forum. If you don't share that belief, that's fine, but we do need you to follow the site guidelines when commenting here, and they certainly cover the above request. So if you're going to comment, please make sure you're familiar with and following them: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- csours 1y agoHistory books can tell you facts that happened, but they can never truly tell you how it feels. I feel we're riding a knife's edge and there's a hurricane brewing in the gulf of absurdity. ==== Incidentally, I feel like this is why it is so hard to actually learn from history. You can read about the 1918 'Spanish' Flu, but you think "we're smarter now". etc.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- lm28469 1y agoWe've always been on a knife edge it's just streamed straight into your eyes balls 24/7 now and social media means everyone has to have a black or white opinion about everything.
- dylan604 1y agoWhile that may be true to an extent, the 24/7 nature of it now is the equivalent of constantly red lining the engine. It used to be you'd go to meetings/gatherings of like minded people to get hopped up and your engines revved up like that, but they would for the most part cool back down after getting back home. Now, the engine never gets back to idle and stays red lined. At some point, the engine will break down, only instead of throwing a rod or ceasing up, something non-engine related will happen.
- lm28469 1y agoFrom a personal point of view I agree, it's completely unhealthy, but from a global perspective it's always been fucked up all the time, open a wiki page for any year between 1900 and now and you will find loads of assassinations, terrorist attacks, wars, famine, genocides, coups d'états, &c.
- lazide 1y agoYup - you’d just never hear about all the ones that weren’t right next to you. At least in gory detail while they happened. Here, I get to read all about the latest insanity in the last 24 hrs from…. 4 major countries in Crisis? Tchau, from central Brazil (today).
- keyboardJones 1y agoPronounced dead by the president: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/115181934991844419 https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/115181934991844419
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- rastignack 1y agoRemember to turn off autoplay on Twitter.
- LeoPanthera 1y ago[flagged]
- dijit 1y ago[flagged]
- DiggyJohnson 1y agoBoth of these murders are among the most gruesome and (unfortunately) enigmatic I’ve ever seen. This is not the society we want.
- heartbreak 1y agoThe mainstream media reported on Iryna’s murder as soon as there was video, but it has been a constant subject of reporting in Charlotte since it happened with immediate political ramifications. I don’t read Twitter, but I do read my local news. I’m not quite sure that anyone is better off now that her murder is being nationally reported, to be honest.
- dijit 1y agoIt took CNN three days after the video was already circulating and getting huge traction; before they reported on it themselves. four days for NYT. This is after the video had already been circulating for days and received a lot of attention, the killing happened on August 22nd and the video has been going around since the 5th of september: https://www.mediaite.com/media/conservatives-call-out-media-silence-on-murder-of-ukrainian-refugee-amid-release-of-horrifying-video/ https://www.mediaite.com/media/conservatives-call-out-media-... These same outlets reported on George Floyds death effectively immediately. Mark Duggan was shot in London and the US MSM picked it up faster. Not aware of anything regarding local news, but when one killing reaches international news and the other has to be already organically international news via social media before reporting happens: people start to make presumptions.
- osrec 1y ago[flagged]
- draw_down 1y ago[dead]
- thomassmith65 1y agoWell then, here come a bunch of new, authoritarian laws.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoGive one example of a law you think would come out of this?
- bdangubic 1y agooh man… it’ll be targeted towards complete loss of any little privacy us citizens have left (if there is any).
- lostdog 1y agoHow about: tech companies must implement mandatory screenings of users' messages and posts to look for violent intent.
- ceejayoz 1y agoGun bans for groups the Right doesn't like? https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/04/politics/transgender-firearms-justice-department-second-amendment https://www.cnn.com/2025/09/04/politics/transgender-firearms...
- nailer 1y ago[flagged]
- thomassmith65 1y agoIs it likely the Republicans will ignore this? I have no idea what specific legislation they will come up with.
- foobarian 1y agoI got one, I got one: national guard on college campuses
- Levitz 1y ago
- geonic 1y ago[flagged]
- camel_Snake 1y agoBest not to speculate on motivations at this time, IMO. It's the most likely scenario given his notoriety, but we don't know anything yet and that's a slippery slope.
- pjc50 1y ago[flagged]
- firesteelrain 1y ago[flagged]
- pjc50 1y agohttps://uk.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-205500283.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-20550...
- firesteelrain 1y agoThanks, it doesn’t explain why it keeps getting posted everywhere as some sort of gotcha
- mainde 1y agoIt's being posted as a gotcha because he fought against firearm control and he was killed with a firearm. His death, like many firearm-related others, would have been significantly less likely to occur if firearm possession was properly regulated and curbed, like it is in many other countries.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
- asacrowflies 1y ago[flagged]
- yahoozoo 1y ago[flagged]
- slowhadoken 1y agoLiberalism only works if it has moral social currency. This assassination just made a martyr out of Charlie Kirk. Now think about his wife and child.
- mpalmer 1y agoThe assumptions implicit in this comment are not especially reasonable.
- slowhadoken 1y ago[flagged]
- mmastrac 1y agoThings are not healthy in the USA, and have not been for a long time. It's all about scoring points now, owning the other side, getting soundbites, etc. It's sad that it's progressed to this. From an outsider, it really feels like there's no middle ground in American politics. You either commit yourself to the full slate of beliefs for one side, or you're the "enemy". I hope that Americans on both side start to see that either they need to tone down the rhetoric, work together and reach across the aisle, or just take the tough step of a national divorce due to irreconcilable differences. Part of that is to stop giving a voice to the insane rhetoric, and stop electing *waving vaguely*.
- eitland 1y agoMy sense is this: one side is utterly unhinged, the other seems desperate to outdo them. I’ve left out which side is which, because I think it works both ways.
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoMaybe its time...we consider separating? We seem to be evenly divided, with neither side making any ground in more unifying the American people. Trump leans into division (he has never been a unifier, and screws up any chance he has to call for unity rather than going after his enemies), the Democrats seem to either have moribund leadership or leadership that are taking lessons directly from Trump and won't be unifiers either. Both sides are getting more angry, maybe we just shouldn't be one country?
- fullshark 1y agoThe economic engine that powers everyone's lives depends on being one country, and even in heavily R/D districts there are people on the opposite side of the fence. It's never going to happen.
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoNo it really doesn't. You have rich countries that are much smaller with less diverse industries than a blue or red America. I get that the red parts of the country still wants wealth transfer payments from the richer blue parts, but that is just hypocrisy on their part. It looks like Trump's term is going to end in either the end of America as we know it or a constitutional convention anyways. Anything is on the table given how America is currently being torn apart anyways.
- poszlem 1y ago[flagged]
- CharlesW 1y agoOff-topic, but I was about report a very hateful response before I refreshed and saw that it had already disappeared. Thank you to @dang and HN's other admins!
- christophilus 1y agoTruly an unenviable job today.
- arrowsmith 1y agoOooooh boy there are a lot of dead comments in this thread.
- busterarm 1y agoIndeed, but in general I'm ashamed at HN. I've read several hundred comments already at this point and have not seen a single word of sympathy for the wife and two babies that he's left behind. Everyone's in such a rush to draw their political lines in the sand...
- quitspamming 1y agoI don't know how a country filled with guns can survive the normalization of calling people you disagree with Nazi, Fascist, etc. We've all been taught since grade school it was a good thing to kill Nazis, even in small percentages there are mentally unstable people who will hear you call someone a Fascist and take the logical step from "it's good to kill nazis" to "they're a nazi so I should kill them". I am both very pro freedom of speech and right to bear arms, and I think where Canada and the UK have gone with hate speech laws are too far, but I don't know how you solve this.
- crooked-v 1y ago[flagged]
- bdhe 1y ago[flagged]
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- lenkite 1y agoAren't they being very non-racist ? AFAIK all illegal immigrants get deported - brown or yellow or whatever. Why have immigration laws if they are not enforced ? If there should be 100% open entry & benefits to the US, then Congress should first abrogate those laws, right ? It seems in the recent past, I beg your pardon - only suckers - entered the legal way with documentation.
- nsriv 1y agoWho do you think gets stopped to meet quotas?
- lenkite 1y agoNah - ICE under the Trump administration has deported dozens of Irish folks who have overstayed in the US, even folks from Germany and UK. There have already been famous cases like Cliona Ward from Dublin. Lot of whites kept in solitary confinement. You can accuse the agency of authoritarianism but not racism. They are going after everyone illegally in the US.
- drak0n1c 1y agoRoss Ulbricht on Kirk: https://x.com/realrossu/status/1965875168573903245 https://x.com/realrossu/status/1965875168573903245
- ncr100 1y ago[flagged]
- lifeisgood99 1y agoHe was also pardoned by Trump.
- asgeesg 1y ago[dead]
- andrewinardeer 1y agoIt's been a few hours since the shooting and no suspect is in custody. I wonder if he/she/they will ever be caught?
- pjc50 1y agoThere's going to be a colossal manhunt. Every possible technology will be mobilized. And it's very hard not to slip up on opsec. Unless the guy leaves the country very quickly, I would expect him to be caught (or killed resisting arrest, the common fate of mass shootings).
- programjames 1y agoNote: it was an assassination, not a mass shooting. There was only one shot.
- pjc50 1y agoOne shot so far. One possible outcome is the shooter has a target list, or is emboldened by success. Some years ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks
- programjames 1y agoI wouldn't expect behaviors from mass shooters to carry over to serial killers.
- greedo 1y agoVance Boelter...
- another_twist 1y agoIt sounds similar to the plot of The F*ck it List.
- cman1444 1y agoTechnically even that wouldn't be a "mass shooter". It would instead be a spree shooter or serial killer. But it's kind of beside the point.
- maximilianburke 1y ago[flagged]
- aynyc 1y ago[flagged]
- Levitz 1y agoYou don't deserve death just because you justify a situation in which some people die. If a person is against, say, laws against tobacco, that person doesn't deserve lung cancer. If a person argues for leniency on criminals, they don't deserve to be murdered. I am baffled that I have to explain this. I don't think you understand the logic you are defending or its consequences.
- FireBeyond 1y agoThere was no statement of deserving. Kirk felt that preventable gun deaths were an acceptable cost to the continuation of the Second Amendment. He fell victim to a preventable gun death. No more, no less.
- Aeglaecia 1y agoas much as one can assume the intent of having posted a quote, a quote in isolation is factual
- voxl 1y agoIt's irony not an argument. From people that refuse to acknowledge that gun laws need to be changed and have a brain rot interpretation of the 2nd amendment in an age where a supreme Court is treating the document more like guidelines.
- s1mplicissimus 1y agoWhere did you read about deserving? Kirk didn't believe he was going to be affected by the open gun policies he supported and now he died due to not fully unrelated causes. Pointing that out doesn't imply thinking he deserved it.
- aynyc 1y agoIt's irony.
- swader999 1y agoThis is the worst kind of censorship. I guess debate is also dead.
- typeofhuman 1y ago[flagged]
- msie 1y ago[flagged]
- bix6 1y ago[flagged]
- swader999 1y agoI don't think you could say this about Charlie Kirk at least.
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- AfterHIA 1y ago[dead]
- deepfriedchokes 1y agoYou and your fellow students experienced something extremely traumatic. Perhaps go to therapy first to process how you are feeling before making any significant life choices.
- imperialdrive 1y agoYikes, that's a rough outlook. Not disagreeing with it, just poking at it a bit from a distance, and hoping that you experience a change in direction after a couple days.
- Poomba 1y agoMost jobs are boring jobs, like being a software engineer dont provide much benefit to society, so I dont get why you should drop out?
- dpbriggs 1y agoDon't do anything drastic.
- watersb 1y agoChronic illness is horrible. And times are tough. It's a scary day. You can still build something, teach something, help those who love you. The despair is real but it goes away.
- fincycaden 1y agoI'd just like to say that I feel you and understand you. I'm a university student as well, feeling a similar way. I'm in Electrical Engineering, and I feel disillusioned with the way society is degenerating. Best of luck, friend. There still are good people out there. We may not be able to cure or fix society or even stop it from degenerating, but you can always build a life with loved ones and create your own world <3
- 8note 1y agoyou shouldnt drop out. you should instead get the degree, and work to remake the world they way you want it to be.
- helqn 1y ago[flagged]
- bena 1y agoHe was a religious fundamentalist. Pretty far from a "moderate". He did not deserve to die for his fundamentalism, but trying to paint him as a moderate who engaged with the process genuinely and in good faith is wildly mischaracterizing his entire life and political career.
- reenorap 1y agoEverything you said above is false. What exactly is a religion fundamentalist? He was a Christian, but what makes him a "fundamentalist"? What exactly did he do that wasn't in good faith? All he did was talk to people respectfully and engage in open dialogue. He had no notes with him ever, and he just talked with people. And for that he got murdered.
- strbean 1y agoKirk supported the stoning to death of gays: https://x.com/patriottakes/status/1800678317030564306 https://x.com/patriottakes/status/1800678317030564306 Fundamentalist? Check. Kirk says some true patriot should bail out the guy who nearly murdered Paul Pelosi with a hammer: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/charlie-kirk-bail-out-alleged-paul-pelosi-attacker-1234621493/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/charlie-... Respectful and in good faith? No check.
- reenorap 1y agoHe doesn't support the stoning of gays and that's another outright lie. He's pointing out that she can't pick and choose Bible verses because the verse just before talks about stoning gays. He's pointing out the hypocrisy of San Francisco letting out people on bail for everything, but if they attack a Pelosi, they can't get bail. You are the one who is acting in bad faith. People like you are the reason why he's dead. You think that because you disagree with him, it's perfectly okay to lie about him and vilify him and hope he gets killed. It's sick and needs to stop.
- cranberryturkey 1y ago[flagged]
- typeofhuman 1y ago[flagged]
- bmicraft 1y agoYou're making this sound very one-sided
- nilespotter 1y agoIt is.
- jackmottatx 1y ago[dead]
- gred 1y agoSo sad, he was more willing than most to hear and debate contrary viewpoints (the "prove me wrong" table).
- RandallBrown 1y agoThe guy in the meme with the table saying "Change My Mind" is Steven Crowder, but I imagine they ran in similar circles.
- gred 1y agoYeah, I think it was a similar concept.
- seadan83 1y agoAgree sad, but not because he was reaching across the intellectual divide. Kirk's debate responses/performances were very often bad faith. It seemed more performative than an actual debate - "owning the libs" and not an intellectual exercise. I really don't think there was a true willingness to listen to contrary viewpoints. For example, his positions did not evolve on most all positions, even when confronted with compelling arguments.
- another_twist 1y ago[flagged]
- gosub100 1y ago"bad faith" is an euphemism for "someone whose views you don't agree with".
- selcuka 1y agoBoth can be true at the same time.
- Supermancho 1y ago> "bad faith" is an euphemism for "someone whose views you don't agree with". This is not correct.
- OCASMv2 1y ago[flagged]
- retox 1y ago[flagged]
- ch4s3 1y agoI really hate the use of this phrase, it lacks specificity and has a sort of unknown unknowns quality whereby we are meant to believe that some speaker utters vilification until some threshold is met and some unknowable person will be impelled to violence. It feels like one of those concepts that oozes out of intelligence connected think tanks and into the discourse. It completely lacks any predictive power and is entirely about crafting narratives around lone actors committing political violence.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Molitor5901 1y agoThis is nuts. I am deeply worried we are headed towards open armed conflict. The violence against political opponents must stop, no matter who it is.
- osrec 1y ago[flagged]
- cpursley 1y ago[flagged]
- Grollicus 1y ago> I know they are worlds apart, but just look at what happened in Nepal... They let hotel inhabitants leave before burning it down. The finance minister got caught by the mob and survived. Does make it seem quite controlled, imo.
- osrec 1y agoThe finance minister was paraded round the streets of Nepal in his underwear and badly beaten. Do you consider that controlled?
- WastedCucumber 1y agoFor those, like me, wondering what happened in Nepal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45166972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45166972 edit: this too - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184558
- flyinglizard 1y ago[flagged]
- pjc50 1y agoThey assassinated some guys in Doha very recently.
- themgt 1y agoBut we have to make an effort in the United States. We have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond, or go beyond these rather difficult times. My favorite poem, my -- my favorite poet was Aeschylus. And he once wrote: "Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness, but is love, and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country ... We can do well in this country. We will have difficult times. We've had difficult times in the past -- and we will have difficult times in the future. It is not the end of violence; it is not the end of lawlessness; and it's not the end of disorder. But the vast majority of [people] in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings that abide in our land. And let's dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people. Bobby Kennedy, 1968 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kWIa8wSC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kWIa8wSC0
- unnamed76ri 1y agoWe are a society whose culture has become unmoored from the values that built it.
- nickthegreek 1y agoHave we? The culture and values that built this country are stained in blood, violence, and subjugation. I feel we are actually losing the enlightenment that came afterwards and regressing back.
- unnamed76ri 1y agoThe things you listed have always been with us, sure. What we’ve lost is the ability to see objective truth. And maybe people celebrated senseless killing in the past too and we just didn’t have access to their sick mentality before the internet.
- sporkxrocket 1y agoMobs of white people (including children) used to gather around the town square to hang black people. They would literally have picnics while doing it. I feel like the majority of our population is historically illiterate. On the scale of senseless killings, this doesn't even rank.
- Whoppertime 1y agoIt wasn't just black people being lynched. The largest single mass lynching in American history was of Italians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_New_Orleans_lynchings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_New_Orleans_lynchings
- sporkxrocket 1y agoLouisiana has a dark history. > An estimated 62–153 black men were murdered while surrendering to a mob of former Confederate soldiers and members of the Ku Klux Klan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colfax_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colfax_massacre
- sudohalt 1y ago[flagged]
- fdhfdjkfhdkj 1y ago[dead]
- benbayard 1y agoWhy was a post about Melissa Hortman being killed flagged and removed but this post is allowed to stay up? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44279203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44279203 See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44276916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44276916
- zerohp 1y ago* * *
- benbayard 1y ago[flagged]
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- Spastche 1y agothis place does a very good of portraying it's self as neutral, rational and logical, but it's definitely not any of that.
- another_twist 1y agoNot fair. Its not right wing or any wing. I think the decent thing to do is not speak ill of the dead. I didnt like him, I barely took notice of what he did. He was not on any side just on the side of opportunity. But there is no solution to be found in violence.
- zahlman 1y ago> HN is a techno right wing site We're talking about the same site that constantly has submissions from politically biased sources alluding to various ways that the orange man is bad, where comments pushing standard right-wing talking points are frequently flagged and killed within minutes, and a recent Ask HN seriously entertained the question of whether HN is "fascist" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44598731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44598731) because the "orange man is bad" posts get flagged?
- iknownothow 1y ago[flagged]
- cosmicgadget 1y agoWas he involved in any mutual defense pacts I am not aware of?
- jojomodding 1y agoHow? Franz Ferdinand's assasination caused an international crisis, whereas this event is clearly US-internal. People outside of the US do not care about Charlie Kirk, nor did he greatly care about countries abroad.
- icar 1y agoCorrect, nobody around me, including me, knows who he is.
- pdabbadabba 1y ago[flagged]
- DiggyJohnson 1y agoAmong young people (especially on TikTok, I’m told, not on that platform though) I would say he’s more well known that a figure like Stephen Colbert. Just trying to put this into perspective for those who aren’t familiar. Nobody can know every publix figure, especially these days.
- Ralfp 1y agoI've only learned about this man's existence because I've returned to watching South Park when I've heard they are targeting Trump and his politics.
- elorant 1y agoHe's probably drawing a comparison to a civil war, not WW3.
- nickdothutton 1y agoJust the other day I was reading about the Italian "Years Of Lead" [1] which I wasn't old enough to understand myself at the time in the UK. I was wondering if we could see something similar as various forces internal and external strained at the seams of western democracies. For context, there is quite febrile atmosphere in the UK at the moment so I feel it is useful to attempt to calibrate these things for stochastic effects. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy)
- pacbard 1y agoWithout knowing what happened, it's difficult to make the comparison between the Italian Years of Lead and what happened earlier today at Utah Valley University. My understanding of the Italian political climate of the 60s, 70s, and 80s is that there were political groups/cells (on both the far right and far left) that organized around violent acts to further their political goals (which involved the eventual authoritarian takeover of the Italian government by either the far right or far left). For example, you can think of the Red Brigades to be akin to the Black Panthers, but with actual terrorism. In contrast, most political violence in America has been less organized and more individual-driven (e.g., see the Oklahoma City Bombing). For better or worse, the police state in the US has been quite successful in addressing and dispersing political groups that advocate for violence as a viable means for societal change.
- mrguyorama 1y agoTimothy McVeigh got his start watching Waco burn, hanging out with groups around the US "militia movement", and reading The Turner Diaries, and had like 3 accomplices. He wasn't a "lone wolf".
- PaulDavisThe1st 1y agoBut he also wasn't actually acting as a part of anything like the Red Brigades either, so the GP's point still stands.
- 1y ago
- BLKNSLVR 1y ago[flagged]
- NuclearPM 1y ago[flagged]
- wturner 1y ago[flagged]
- ipython 1y agoI was just at a conference today where one of the presenters referenced the "Trust barometer": https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer According to that study, 23% approved of the statement "I approve hostile activism to drive change by threatening or committing violence". It's even higher if you only focus on 18-34 year olds. Full report here: https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2025-01/2025%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer%20Global%20Report_01.23.25.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2025-0...
- autoexec 1y ago"threatening or committing violence" could mean almost anything. It isn't hard to find evidence of people (especially young ones) equating speech with violence. I imagine that "I support assassination to drive change" would be even less popular.
- Lerc 1y agoIt will be a range of opinions within that area, but even at the tail there are a concerning number of people. One person in a thousand prepared to commit violence for political ends can be enough to turn a country into chaos.
- Aeolun 1y agoBecause one person in a thousand is equivalent to a small military force.
- collingreen 1y agoOnly if armed and organized
- greedo 1y agoThat would be much larger than a "small" force. In the US that would approach the size of the active duty Army.
- bigstrat2003 1y agoI bang on a lot about not saying things like "this person is a threat to democracy" and other such apocalyptic statements. This right here is a perfect example of why: when you steep people in a culture that tells them someone is (or their ideas are) an existential threat, eventually someone is going to be the right level of scared + unstable that causes them to kill people to try to defend their way of life. If you find this horrifying (and I hope you do, because there can be no moral justification for celebrating murder), then I encourage you to really think about whether we would not be better off without such extremist language poisoning people's minds. We have to try to stop escalating, or the cycle is going to destroy our society.
- protocolture 1y ago[flagged]
- AnimalMuppet 1y agoIt is better to peacefully respond to fascism with speech until far after the point where most of the loud voices say "we need violence to oppose this!" There comes a point where you have to oppose fascism with violence. There really does. But wow are people overeager to jump into it.
- protocolture 1y ago>There comes a point where you have to oppose fascism with violence. I am betting if you read a history of germany, you would probably pick roughly the same point that the US has long since passed as the time to resist openly. Most people do in abstract.
- LocalH 1y agoIf we wait as long as you are suggesting, then it's already too late
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- subpixel 1y agoAmen
- cyclecount 1y ago[flagged]
- Tankenstein 1y agoThis person posts large amounts of misinformation, best not to read into it.
- hersko 1y agoKirk was a massive supporter of Israel. Hinklle is literally a crazy person. You cannot honestly believe this.
- redwood 1y agoWhat kind of garbage is this
- anthem2025 1y ago[flagged]
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- Zigurd 1y agoThere's video of the police carrying someone away, with his pants down. They drop him on his face at one point. Apparently the wrong guy. Utah has what they call "constitutional carry." Extremely permissive gun laws. I'd bet there were several people carrying concealed in that crowd, not counting security and police.
- petsfed 1y agoReports are that the single shot came from ~200 yards/meters away, which is basically the worst case scenario for good-guy-with-a-gun. In an active shooter situation, an armed bystander could in principle stop an attacker from continuing, but the only way that an armed bystander could hope to stop an assassination is if they were walking around looking for trouble. Regardless of where you stand on the subject of concealed carry, I don't think its controversial to say we shouldn't be encouraging untrained/unvetted folks to go seek out would-be assassins before they have demonstrated themselves to be a danger. That's exactly how "armed security" shot and killed an actual bystander at the Salt Lake City 50501 demonstration earlier this year.
- Zigurd 1y agoI'm certainly not encouraging armed individuals in a crowd to do anything. My point was that having a significant number of armed people in a crowd like that makes finding a shooter that much more difficult. I am not surprised the wrong person was grabbed. It could've been much worse.
- petsfed 1y agoI misunderstood you then. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Even so, most folks who carry prefer concealed carry for tactical reasons, one of which being that unless you have your rifle in a ready position, its not very useful in a self-defense situation, and simply marks you as "shoot this one first". And it turns out that walking around with a rifle in a ready position is generally perceived as aggressive, regardless of actual intent, even by those comfortable with firearms (consider a police officer approaching with a holstered weapon vs one in their hand). So in the context of this shot, it ought to be relatively easy to pick out the shooter in the moment, the problem is that a ~200m radius around the tent where Kirk was speaking covers a lot of territory, and that's a lot of ground to cover effectively without obviously interfering with students' free movement about their college campus.
- cindyllm 1y ago[dead]
- mandeepj 1y ago[flagged]
- etchalon 1y agoIt's all gone a a bit tits up, hasn't it?
- avazhi 1y agoNever really followed this guy and only knew of him because he'd randomly be mentioned in news stories. Regardless of your political bent, this sort of shit is sickening and genuinely disturbing, particularly when it occurs at (as this did) at a university whose ostensible raison d'etre is to ventilate different ideas, offensive or not. I realise this event wasn't a 'debate' per se but nevertheless it's the ethos and optics that matter. There's also the incredibly myopic immaturity inherent in using violence for the sole or primary purpose of silencing the speaker and signalling to others that violence is somehow an acceptable form of dialogue. The myopic absurdity of this is of course that it is a cycle that can never end if all participants share that view, ensuring that it is inevitably self-defeating. Violence can make sense under certain circumstances - coups, revolutions, wars - but in the context of mere rhetoric it's abhorrent to witness. Just a grotesque reflection in a long list of them that we as a species, or very many of us - perhaps more than we want to admit - are extremely violent and brutal. Sickening and sobering, and again you could plug in any speaker/polemicist from whichever part of the political spectrum in here and it would be no less true.
- another_twist 1y agoThe only reason I know of him is the master debate episode from South Park. I wanted context. Fwiw, he was a bad debater but he openly said he didnt know about something in public and thats something I dont see people doing often. I appreciated that.
- bradhe 1y ago[flagged]
- avazhi 1y agoIf a person espoused and encouraged assassination as a means to achieve his political or philosophical goals then it's difficult to see how he could be surprised if he himself were to be assassinated or affected by violence. In a sense that would just be logical cause and effect. But to my knowledge Kirk never did and 'live by the sword, die by the sword' wouldn't apply here. In fact I can't think of an instance in recent history where this would have applied - the logical implications inherent in such rhetoric are obvious to most people immediately. Even the Russians as a general rule don't murder their exiled former rulers - the new Czar figures he could be next, and wouldn't want to set a precedent.
- imwillofficial 1y agoA sad day for America. Very few will like where this leads. I hope cooler heads prevail and pray for him and his family.
- SubiculumCode 1y ago[flagged]
- OhMeadhbh 1y agoAnd dude had kids and a wife that aren't going to see him again. That kinda kicks me in the feels. You don't have to be in his political camp to feel bad about that.
- kanbara 1y ago[flagged]
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- dang 1y agoEdit: I took a closer look at your account history and didn't see a pattern of this kind of abusive post, so I've unbanned the account. That's in keeping with how we've been handling other accounts posting abusively in this thread (from all political sides). But if you want to keep contributing to HN, please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and make sure not to do this in the future. ---- We've banned this account. You can't post like this here, regardless of who you're attacking. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
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- halis 1y ago[flagged]
- judah 1y agoI know you meant it sarcastically, but Charlie appreciated thoughts and prayers. Because faithful Christians like Charlie believe prayer is powerful and effective, even if not in the way we want it to be.
- nawartamawi 1y agothis is a sad day for America, violence is not an answer to extreme voices on both ends, praying for peace and space for true free speech.
- mempko 1y ago[flagged]
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- throwawaybob420 1y ago[flagged]
- averageRoyalty 1y agoThey have more than 1 per day on average: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_...
- kulahan 1y agoWhat makes you think most of Americans walking around worried about a shooting? Are they still worried about terrorist attacks and bear maulings too? I’m probably wrong, but dang this seems like such a silly thing to personally worry about.
- strathmeyer 1y ago[flagged]
- mempko 1y ago[flagged]
- gameshot911 1y agoAre you vegetarian/vegan?
- mempko 1y agoGood point. The violence against our ecology is dramatic. We are causing the sixth mass extinction.
- skc 1y agoI wonder how quickly the gunman will be found. I've always wondered if the authorities would ever be able to find someone who patterned themselves after a character like The Jackal.
- just-the-wrk 1y agoI had a convo about law enforcement's tools with a California detective last month. He was very clear its only a question of resources, and if the federal gov't is motivated to find them, they will.
- tyleo 1y agoYou know I’ve generally thought it’s is true. You WILL get caught. Then I wonder if the government knows who Satoshi is. I know he didn’t kill someone but I wonder if the resources exist to figure it out if they truly wanted.
- blaufast 1y agoI wonder about the Jan 6 pipe bomber
- cryptonector 1y ago"The government" is not a monolith. It is an organization staffed by people who have different opinions, motivations, goals, etc., and often work at cross purposes. It's entirely possible that some in the government know who Satoshi is and aren't telling others (especially higher-ups) about it.
- mbs159 1y agoGuess the government wasn't motivated enough to catch D.B. Cooper
- CSMastermind 1y agoAlready been apprehended according to Kash Patel (FBI director)
- renewiltord 1y agoThere is an increased amount of energy in the system. This is a bad thing. The amplitudes of the fluctuations are too high. Time to bring things back down to normal. Political violence cannot be accepted: Luigi Mangione, the Hortmans' killer, Kirk's killer all have to be brought to justice by the law. And from the rest of us, they all have to be denounced. Increased political violence is bad. The state starts breaking down since the price for everything is death so action stalls.
- aesthethiccs 1y agoEconomic conditions create political violence, because politics can no longer be used to fix economic conditions. those who make peaceful change impossible make violent revolutions inevitable. pretty sure a us president said something like that.
- renewiltord 1y agoThis cannot be an explanation since the 2008 Financial Crisis did not have a similar rise in political violence and that was far greater economic disruption.
- deadfoxygrandpa 1y ago2008 did have an rise in political violence. you're seeing the results of it right now. we never climbed out of that hole and we're still living in the aftermath of 2008 and its effects on our society
- jdefr89 1y ago[flagged]
- amradio1989 1y agoIn light of the top post by "dang", I'd like to apologize for my own comments. Forgive me brothers and sisters, I was obviously on edge. In particular I'd like to apologize to one individual whom I insinuated was posting rage-bait. To close, this is a tragic time in America. Each act of violence is one act too many.
- Loughla 1y agoGood on you for owning that.
- davesque 1y agoI'm glad to see people following their instinct to de-escalate. Kudos.
- Simulacra 1y ago[flagged]
- jjani 1y ago[flagged]
- asalahli 1y agoI don't think dang was a moderator at that time
- plumb_bob_00 1y agoYou are correct. > Meet the People Taking over Hacker News > by Paul Graham 3/29/2014 > ... > Finally, I’m delighted to announce that Daniel Gackle (pronounced Gackley), who has already been doing most of the moderation for the last 18 months, is going to join YC full-time to be in charge of the HN community. https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/meet-the-people-taking-over-hacker-news https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/meet-the-people-taking-over... Bin Laden was assassinated in 2011.
- eitland 1y ago
- kylemaxwell 1y agoYou cannot have peace without justice.
- redwood 1y agoJustice is in the eye of the beholder. There has to come a time of acceptance
- lab14 1y ago[flagged]
- soupbowl 1y ago[flagged]
- Quarrelsome 1y agothis left/right idea is part of the tribal divide and leads to people thinking this sort of thing is ok. Consider a different framing. In this case, an individual shot someone. Its not like a political party was calling for his murder.
- lab14 1y agoThat's one way of seeing it, but antagonizing and alienating a big portion of the general population like blacks, immigrants, gays, trans and everyone who doesn't share your same religious views, in a country where teenagers can get easy access to assault rifles, might be a bit dangerous to say the least.
- cmdli 1y agoI think this is disingenuous. Charlie Kirk's content was specifically around "triggering the libs". He deliberately tried to make people angry, not looking to make any kind of common ground for discussion.
- stocksinsmocks 1y agoI think that this is pinned to the front page says a lot about the user base and moderation here. Disappointing.
- throwawaybob420 1y ago[flagged]
- GlacierFox 1y ago[flagged]
- CSMastermind 1y agoIt has been extremely disheartening to see people celebrating this across other social media platforms.
- giraffe_lady 1y ago[flagged]
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- seanmcdirmid 1y agoConsidering this happened in a red state in a community that leans conservative despite having a university there, I don't see how Trump could spin this as a way to send troops into Chicago.
- throwawaybob420 1y ago[flagged]
- dang 1y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. All: I suppose I should add that yes, there are many other accounts breaking the site guidelines and some are likely crossing the line at which we should ban them. One thing to realize, though, is that we usually take the account history into account, not just what they're posting in one thread (like today's).
- throwawaybob420 1y agoSuck my cock you faggot
- wordofx 1y ago[flagged]
- Quarrelsome 1y ago> The left is sick I don't think that's a particularly helpful statement, given the person responsible is one person, given that the "left" or the "right" aren't really solid concepts and are rather used to describe individuals that vote once every four years for a party that pretends its eiter "right" or "left". Furthermore as someone outside of America, I sometimes feel like I care about America more than Americans, given the current government and its dismissive attitudes to liberty.
- fundad 1y ago[flagged]
- stirfish 1y ago>we have BLM on Twitter claiming they have a right to violence and a right to kill. You might be seeing bots trying to sew division.
- wordofx 1y ago[dead]
- dang 1y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our request to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. All: I suppose I should add that yes, there are many other accounts breaking the site guidelines and some are likely crossing the line at which we should ban them. One thing to realize, though, is that we usually take the account history into account, not just what they're posting in one thread (like today's).
- TacticalCoder 1y ago[dead]
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- smoovb 1y agoI don't know who this is, but given the number of comments, seems to have mattered. Only point of this comment is assure others who don't know his work that you are not alone.
- PartiallyTyped 1y ago[flagged]
- yonran 1y agoI have only seen Charlie Kirk on this interview with California Governor Gavin Newsom. Apparently he was someone who was promoting tolerance to more diverse political points of view. And he made many valid points that made the Governor squirm and agree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XJ6rQDRKGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XJ6rQDRKGA
- magicalist 1y ago> Apparently he was someone who was promoting tolerance to more diverse political points of view. Definitely: > "I think the Democrats do not believe in the nuclear family, and they've already destroyed it in the macro, and now they're trying to destroy it in the micro." And this is what I found in 10 seconds. Really fostering that political diversity. He's just another twitter/youtube pundit in the Fox News classic style, and there's endless hours of him talking just like this.
- yonran 1y agoI think there’s a kernel of truth in what he said, surrounded by some exaggeration. The rural parts of the country, where people get married under 25 years old and have a higher fertility rate, probably do place a higher value on having a family than the urban parts of the country where career is prioritized. Good politicians (like Barack Obama did in his prime) take pains to acknowledge truths from the other side.
- astura 1y ago
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- LZ_Khan 1y ago[flagged]
- FaridIO 1y agoThe problem here is that everyone thinks their ideas aren't radical and that sharing them isn't indoctrination. I once left a religion, peacefully, not loudly or trying to tell anyone else how to live their life. People still in the religion thought I was radical and dangerous to the fabric of society. Charlie invited people to have a debate. Whether he was right or wrong at least to me with my lived experiences feels irrelevant, if that's dangerous to society then society is wrong.
- zug_zug 1y agoThere may be no systematic way to draw the line between dangerous opinions that need to be silenced and those that do not. There may be many people who draw that line incorrectly. But that doesn't mean there is no such line. Almost everybody agrees there should be some cost to expressing highly dangerous views -- where we disagree is what that cost needs to be for a given view (reputational, financial, capital).
- FaridIO 1y agoAnd in this hypothetical world where having dangerous opinions has consequences even though sometimes we draw the line incorrectly, I'm assuming you think your personal views could never be marked as such? We still live in a free society where at least the aim is to not hurt people in any way for expressing their own views.
- LZ_Khan 1y agoI agree. I personally do not actually think Mr. Kirk was past the line. But for example Hitler and other demagogues were past that line.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
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- krapp 1y agoYes, there were two more school shootings today you won't hear anything about, certainly not on Hacker News. But every time a rich white asshole gets shot there's bound to be thousands of comments here and people clutching their pearls and saying it's the end of civil society. But the pile of dead schoolchildren, black people shot by cops, brown people shot by the military, Jews and gay people shot by spree killers? Not a care in the world, that's just background noise. Trump (or whomever controls his Truth Social account - I seriously doubt he knows how Photoshop works) posts a meme about "Chipocalypse now" bragging about the violence he intends to commit against his own people and no one seems to care. Presidents have been taken down for far less egregious behavior. But it's Chicago, it's full of black people and immigrants so who gives a fuck? I think you're right. I think Americans are afraid because for the first time in their lives they're being treated the way America has treated everyone who isn't straight, white, Christian and American, that the systems of oppression they built and which feed their empire are actually being turned on them. The only thing I can say is they aren't nearly afraid enough.
- fzeroracer 1y agoHell, as mentioned a few months ago Melissa Hortman got assassinated and she was a sitting representative. Trump used this opportunity to fling further shit, the far right media sphere immediately went to work claiming he was a marxist and that it was a hit ordered by Walz. Every single person in the Charlie Kirk far right media bubble immediately called for violence, government crackdowns and that it was time to finally stop the far left. It's a damn shame we've gotten to this point but the reason why we're here is obvious and extremely predictable.
- ddddang 1y ago[dead]
- dickersnoodle 1y ago[flagged]
- Glyptodon 1y agoI'm mildly curious what the reaction to this will be compared to the reaction to other recent political murders, like the Hortmans, or of Thompson. That said, I think people need to recognize that in many aspects what's happening is connected to societal issues that gun control and gun regulations will have very little impact on - remember, even in Japan somebody could make some kind of battery ignited home-made shotgun and kill Shinzo Abe.
- bluecheese452 1y agoThis is the perfect example of the exception that proves the rule. I mean it is almost shocking that you would try to say this with a straight face.
- paulryanrogers 1y ago> remember, even in Japan somebody could make some kind of battery ignited home-made shotgun and kill Shinzo Abe. Countries with strict gun control enjoy far lower rates of firearm accidents, suicides, and murders. IMO it's clearly worth the tradeoff. Very few of us live in a place where only guns can solve our problems. The fact that occasionally someone goes to great lengths to kill doesn't mean we should make it easier for everyone.
- Group_B 1y agoI think it's simply too late for real gun control in the US. Like how would that ever be enforced? There's too many guns already, and we have too many people down south that would be happy to smuggle guns back up North. And trying to control the ammo would be even more unrealistic. The gun culture America created over the past 100+ years is a massive mistake, and I don't think there is any undoing of it. Should have been more control immediately post WWII imo.
- rcpt 1y agoA lot of stuff would not happen if it took a little more effort. Giving people some extra time to second guess themselves is a big deal.
- zaps 1y ago[flagged]
- robertwt7 1y agoThis is crazy. Healthy debate and disagreement should be free in a democratic country, without any fear of violence, let alone death.
- incoming1211 1y ago[flagged]
- msie 1y ago[flagged]
- sigmarule 1y ago(only replying here because I can’t reply to the parent) > Writes “Unfortunately the left cannot have debate and disagreement.” > Receives downvotes - literal expressions of disagreement incarnate. > Updates post to add “(weird way to prove my point, by downvoting)” I guess you’re implying you’re a liberal?
- incoming1211 1y agoWhere was the debate? I wrote "debate and disagreement", which refers to them being together. Not separate things.
- myHNAccount123 1y agoI think you're being too nice. Is rage baiting teenagers really a debate?
- PlanksVariable 1y agoThat’s one way to frame it. A cynical and disingenuous one. He presented an alternative to the indoctrination students often receive today at college campuses and through the media. He gave students a microphone and a chance to defend their views. If presenting an alternative political philosophy causes someone to become enraged (or worse), we’re in a really bad state.
- uejfiweun 1y agoCall me crazy, and maybe I'm just out of touch, but something seems... off with the reaction to this. The amount of people on reddit that I'm seeing gloating, openly celebrating this, it's really just something I have never seen before. Not even the Trump assassination attempt had this kind of reaction. All I'm saying, is that if I was a US adversary, I would absolutely be spinning up a million LLMs to post the most provocative possible stuff. The technology absolutely exists - just yesterday sama@ was talking about the dead internet theory. I'm worried that someone is going to see that horrifying video of the shooting, and then see all these horrifying comments online, and do something equally horrifying.
- Graphon1 1y agodo you know the name Luigi Mangione?
- uejfiweun 1y agoYeah, fair enough. No doubt there is some real-ness to the sentiment. I do think it's an easy way to hurt the US to fan the flames of divisive things like this. But at the end of the day flame doesn't exist without kindling... I guess it's just the world we live in. How depressing.
- Rapzid 1y agoIf you need a counter balance go look at the comments on the Mike Rowe Youtube video addressing this. You'll see people fawning over Kirk like he was a prophet. Dear leader stuff.
- bayarearefugee 1y ago> All I'm saying, is that if I was a US adversary, I would absolutely be spinning up a million LLMs to post the most provocative possible stuff. They have already been doing this for years -- over a decade -- with meatbag posters before LLMs were widely available. How do you think we got to the current political climate in the first place?
- paulryanrogers 1y ago[flagged]
- msie 1y ago[flagged]
- maxlin 1y agoThe guy was the embodiment of the "prove me wrong" meme. His choice of getting in to the middle of people and answering anyone's questions in a situation where there's no re-takes, no edits, even if he might've felt overbearing, was quite a fire test of the commenter's arguments versus his counter-arguments. His assassination really is a direct attack on debate itself. There really isn't a world where the sick people cheering this have any real respect for democratic values of a free world full of all kinds of thinkers. Maybe for something more akin to that one dialog "choice" in Avowed. You know if you know.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mbs159 1y ago[flagged]
- maxlin 1y agoYou could go up to the mic and debate him, there often was a long back-n-forth. I don't think you've seen any long form clips of said debates, saying what you're saying, and you've been misinformed. I'm absolutely not being disingenuous and you throwing out an insult like that without any elaboration at the current time doesn't bode well on you.
- im_down_w_otp 1y ago[flagged]
- sebmellen 1y agoWhile you can make this comment in an objective way, your vitriolic expression of this is not a good way to approach the situation. For a simple first question, do you know of Iryna Zarutska? Killed with a pocket knife. Do we need to ban pocket knives too? Or do we need to have foundational discussion about how we quell violence and deter violent behavior in this country? It’s not a given to presume that gun bans are the answer. And expressing that opinion is not something that should get you shot.
- im_down_w_otp 1y agoI'm not making a statement about what should be done with guns. I'm making a statement about a person experiencing the consequences of their stated position. If he'd staked out a position on the necessity of compelling everyone to engage in autoerotic asphyxiation to achieve maximum satisfaction and then subsequently died from it in a suffocation incident himself, then it wouldn't really be much of a tragedy compared to a bunch of children being randomly strangled to death in their classrooms. Insofar as I can tell it looks like Charlie Kirk died doing what he loved and in a way that aligned existentially with his zealously professed ideology. Did he not?
- roody15 1y agoA therapist once explained to me that the human mind first processes things through the emotional regions of the brain (limbic) and only afterwards can it reach the logic center (pre frontal cortex). This has helped me to understand a lot of human behavior and social media posts and reactions (also propaganda, cults, sales, etc) You may think you have come to a logical conclusion about political issue x or political party x, but very likely the vast majority of us are first having a triggered emotional reaction and later using our pre-frontal cortex to logically create a narrative on why we feel this way and justify it. Taken to extremes I think you can see things like today happen and see how people react. Sometimes I catch myself defending someone or a position and later realize I am just wrong, it’s just that I had an emotional reaction felt a possible connection with the person or a cause or vibe they expressed or are connected with and then my attorney brain kicks into overdrive trying to make it all add up. It also explains a lot of domestic issues, if you are upset or scared your brain stays in the limbic center and is literally incapable of rational thought until you calm down or feel safe. Just my two cents
- NalNezumi 1y agoAnother way to frame the same observation that I like goes: "A magician, asked how he comes up with his magical tricks, asks back: are human rational or irrational? It's a trick question, we are rationalizers. We make up our minds, and then come up with a reason why that's right. Magical trick is all about understanding this dynamic and guiding the reasoning to the conclusion you want it to make"
- paulvnickerson 1y agoIt's not a gun problem that we have in this country. Iryna Zarutska was murdered with a pocket knife. What we have is a spiritual sickness, which cannot be legislated... The only thing I can think of that the government can do is to clamp down hard on violence, including speech which advocates for violence (e.g. glorifying Luigi Mangione, calling everyone a Nazi/fascist, etc.). Freedom of speech ends where it actually turns into violence.
- tln 1y agoI'm not sure we have a "the government" with all the federation involved; and a treacherous administration. Reducing rights to speech that advocates for violence makes some sense, but what I'd like to see is reducing the lies and disinformation. Install a duty of candor to everyone who speaks in greatly public ways
- amanaplanacanal 1y agoIf we cracked down on speech calling for violence, the president would be in jail instead of the white house. I don't see that happening.
- 8note 1y agothere still is a gun problem. you might have some blind spots yourself though. the biggest set of spiritual sickness and violence are whats happening to immigrants by ICE, and the support americans are giving to israel to do mass horrors to gazan civilians. theres tons of violence going on thats much more current than talking about luigi or calling somebody who is a fascist a fascist
- tim333 1y agoIf you got rid of the guns, killings wouldn't go to zero but might go down 10x.
- shadowgovt 1y agoCorrect. Someone might have still killed Charlie Kirk. It's unlikely they would have killed him anonymously, from 200 yards away, and be still at large a day later.
- aesthethiccs 1y ago[flagged]
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- Jtsummers 1y agoThat's a bizarre position to take. It's in poor taste, certainly, but not something that warrants reporting to the FBI. Comments like those indicate neither an intent to commit similar actions nor that they aided in today's actions.
- delfugal 1y ago[flagged]
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- smeeger 1y agomany on the left point out charlies comments on gun crime, school shootings. this has nothing to do with any of that because it was a political assassination. this is not gun violence in the colloquial sense. you could ban guns fully and there would still be political assassinations using rifles because these people are either enabled by high level political forces or highly motivated in an idealistic, political manner and will do whatever is necessary to get a rifle unlike most common criminals.
- smt88 1y ago[flagged]
- paulryanrogers 1y agoAssassin by gun is objectively more difficult in a country that bans them outright. His ardent support for private gun ownership contributed to the continuation of a nation filled with more guns than humans.
- snovymgodym 1y agoI do think the United States needs to overhaul its firearms laws, however: There are very few countries that ban firearms outright. The type of weapon used in this attack was a bolt-action hunting rifle. You can buy that sort of weapon on the basic firearm license in Canada, the UK, Australia, Germany, Norway, Sweden, etc. The entire gun debate in this country which usually revolves around tightening restrictions on handguns and semi-automatics is not really relevant to this case. Virtually nobody running for public office, even among Democrats, is talking about a total ban on private firearms ownership.
- tmsh 1y agoLooking at recent events through a historical lens: the 1960s saw the assassinations of MLK, RFK, JFK, and Malcolm X during a wave of progressive change. Today’s assassination attempts and targeted violence seem to follow a similar pattern during periods of significant social and political shifts. As RFK said after MLK’s death, we must choose between “violence and non-violence, between lawlessness and love.” His call for unity and rejecting hatred feels as urgent now as it was then. Violence is never the answer. But understanding these tragic patterns might help us navigate our current moment with hopefully more empathy.
- pm90 1y agoThis is dangerous false equivalency. Charlie Kirk was not advocating for the rights of the downtrodden. He was a right wing provocateur, and he’s on the record saying that “some gun deaths are ok” in service of the 2nd amendment, and in making light of the nearly deadly political attack on the Pelosi family. Political violence, especially deadly violence is not ok. But comparing Charlie Kirk to MLK is also not ok.
- PlanksVariable 1y ago[dead]
- Cornbilly 1y agoHe also spread the rumors that Pelosi’s attacker was just an upset gay lover.
- thephyber 1y agoI don’t get why people are downvoting this. It is factually true, even if it’s uncomfortable to point out on the day of his murder. Kirk was not a benevolent truth seeker. He was a political provocateur and propagandist dressed as a debater. And Paul Pelosi was one of the victims of his smears.
- strken 1y ago"Some gun deaths are okay" is saying the quiet part out loud, but it's not wrong. When you let a large group of people have access to something dangerous then some number of them will die and kill using the dangerous thing, whether the thing is cars or paracetamol or wingsuits or guns. I say this as an Australian. We have a far more restrictive system of gun control than the US and yet we still see tens of gun deaths a year, because some gun deaths are okay even if we set the number a lot lower than the US does.
- jaco6 1y ago[dead]
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- myko 1y ago[flagged]
- catigula 1y agoAmerica feels like it's in mortal danger.
- beeflet 1y agoThat means it must be finally feeling.
- PlanksVariable 1y agoI watched a few clips of Kirk on college campuses leading up to the election. On campuses today, there’s no shortage of professors, student activists, and guest speakers beating the drum of modern liberalism, but very few brave enough to take an alternative view. So I respected him for getting students to question and defend their beliefs.
- mandeepj 1y ago[flagged]
- loughnane 1y agonothing to do with kirk, but rhetoric is like strength---it can be used for good or bad.
- bxsioshc 1y ago[dead]
- exabrial 1y agoThis man died promoting non-violence.
- margalabargala 1y agoI don't think that does his memory justice. He would not like to be described that way. Remember his accomplishments, like fighting for the freedom of the man who attacked Paul Pelosi with a hammer. To say he promoted nonviolence is an insult to the things he stood for and the vision he had for America.
- exabrial 1y ago"fighting for freedom" did he really? Or what is it a sarcastic comment? Where is this fight you reference?
- margalabargala 1y agoIt is a matter of public record that he encouraged his followers to pay the bail of the man who attacked Paul Pelosi with a hammer. He fought for that man's freedom, because of the violence he committed. Kirk did not stand for or promote nonviolence; quite the opposite. To suggest as much is to forget the things the man did in life. In much the same manner, he would not want his death used to weaken 2nd amendment protections.
- npteljes 1y agoThe actual thing that the man was promoting: >Turning Point USA CEO and co-founder Charlie Kirk said of gun deaths on April 5, 2023, "I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights."< https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-gun-deaths-quote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-gun-deaths-qu...
- exabrial 1y agoNo part of that promotes violence.
- kevinventullo 1y ago[flagged]
- esalman 1y agoYou echo my sentiment. I have an elementary school kid, and earlier today there was a high school shooting in another state.
- Terr_ 1y agoArguably it was a school shooting. Kirk was was speaking at Utah Valley University, as part of his "American Comeback Tour."
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Terr_ 1y agoIf we (charitably) take kevinventullo at their word, then your reply doesn't make much sense to me. It makes it sound as if kevinventullo ought to mourn Kirk's death much more than Kirk would be mourning kevinventullo's death, and it's likely kevinventullo also has a family who would miss them. I'm guessing the intent is more like: "While your comment is logically neutral, the subtext or tone is callous."
- shruubi 1y agoThe fact that we're talking about this using terms like "sides" is the problem. American politics has long since stopped being about policy, but is treated like a sport where you follow your "team" and defend them no matter what. It's as though people are incapable of having thoughts on an issue more complex than "does my side think this is good or bad?" and suddenly those who disagree with you are evil, and with partisan media suddenly you see the "other side" as some faceless evil rather than people with differing and complex experiences and views. I don't agree with a lot of the things Charlie Kirk said, and as someone who is not an American, there was also a lot of things he said I simply didn't care about because they didn't apply to me. I also found that his way of communicating was more geared towards encouraging discussions that would generate views. But despite all that, I can appreciate that he was a man who was willing to have a (mostly) civil conversation with all sides, something I wish more people would try to do. American politics isn't politics, it's one step short of being like football hooliganism for supposedly smart people.
- abustamam 1y agoI agree with you. There should not be sides in the American political system. Yet here we are, because the people we elect seem to want to create a boogeyman in the other "side" and blame all of society's problems on them. Maybe that's just a reflection on American society. And the news networks eat that shit up. They love a boogeyman, because it's good for ratings.
- cryptonector 1y agoI have news for you: it's not just American politics that has "sides". In fact, it's exceedingly surprising to me how much politics has aligned (not necessarily in terms of party names and labels) throughout the entire Western world in the past several decades.
- abustamam 1y agoI don't disagree. I don't know anything about the political systems of other countries. I'm just talking about what I am familiar with, which is the American political system. You're right, though. Americans actually agree on most things [1]. In that sense, there is really only one "side." Yet the media exploits the small differences that people don't agree upon to create a giant divide. Anecdote: I firmly believe Trump is going to destroy our democracy, or at least put it to its absolute limits. Yet, I have many friends who voted for Trump. They're great people. We don't ever talk politics, but whenever we talk about economics, or society, we actually agree about most things. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't be friends. Yet the talking heads on TV would have us believe that democrats and republicans are enemies. And that may very well be a self fulfilling prophecy. [1] https://apnews.com/article/ap-poll-democracy-rights-freedoms-election-b1047da72551e13554a3959487e5181a https://apnews.com/article/ap-poll-democracy-rights-freedoms...
- calmbonsai 1y ago[flagged]
- geuis 1y agoI have no background context on this topic. Can someone more knowledgeable fill in the details? The nbcnews website is filled with ad stuff and my blockers basically render the page unreadable.
- didgetmaster 1y agoThere are a number of outspoken people on the other end of the political spectrum from me, that I vehemently disagree with. While I would love to see their words either ignored or condemned by the masses; I have no desire to see them killed or harmed in any way. I wish more people on both ends of the political spectrum felt that way. Either committing or supporting violence against those we disagree with, has no place in a civil society.
- jtbaker 1y agoThe number of people I’ve seen basically condoning this act is sickening. This guy had views I 100% disagree with, and wish did not have a platform to espouse them. But his children no longer have a dad in their life. That is just heartbreaking to me. It’s hard for me to understand people who are so wrapped up in political rhetoric that they think taking a person’s life is acceptable.
- ActorNightly 1y ago[flagged]
- jtbaker 1y agoYes. Both things can be true.
- Hasnep 1y agoThis is the kind of whataboutism the right has been doing for years, it's not any better when someone (I assume) on the left does it.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago"what about her emails" when the rights now had 6 years to investigate it as the executive office (+ 4 years in congress, even woth a democratic president) is not going to ring the same way as "but what about our people being dragged out with no due process". I'm sorry, this is no longer a "both sides" matter.
- xvector 1y agoPlatforms like Reddit and BlueSky need to be held accountable for promoting violent rhetoric, as well as the users that openly call for violence. A child could write an LLM backed script that filters out calls for violence.
- beeflet 1y agoAn adult could work around the script
- xvector 1y ago90% wouldn't bother if you combine it with an IP-linked shadowban.
- tim333 1y agoThere's also the global movie industry where most movies seem to have violence. Plus much historical literature.
- shadowgovt 1y agoAttempts to do something like that "softly" via communication with the previous administration arguably boosted the vote counts of the party who came out strongly against that kind of restraint.
- numa7numa7 1y agoCan people just upvote a post instead of repeating exactly what another person has said? Yeah we all know violence has no place in our society and gun's are controversial and politics should be more civil.
- stayhydratedboy 1y agoYou're right! Let's stop talking about it and move on. Survivor is coming on on NBC soon. I can't wait to head to nbc.com and get my official merchandise! Nothing need be discussed; the media has already decided for us.
- beej71 1y agoI don't want to live in a place where people are killed for expressing opinions I consider highly offensive and damaging.
- croes 1y agoHow much damage is ok?
- jalapenos 1y ago[flagged]
- lifeformed 1y agoWinning through "reason" seems kind of naive given today's social landscape. Are our politics broken because the facts simply aren't known? The misinformation-firehose/attention-economy/propaganda-machines are simply too powerful to be countered by merely being correct. I'm not saying murdering everyone is the right alternative, but if you think trying to balance political power by "winning debates" or something seems reasonable, that ship has long sailed.
- api 1y agoI think this is overblown. Most people do have reasons for what they believe. I know everyone hates it when people “both sides” things these days, but one thing I do see both sides having in common is a refusal to honestly engage with and comprehend the other position. This doesn’t mean agreeing. It means understanding what someone believes and how they might have gotten there. Where the echo chambers and other things that you mention do come in is in reinforcing that dynamic, in reinforcing each side seeing only a straw man version of the other.
- mxkopy 1y ago[flagged]
- 8note 1y agoso this is the end of the debate bro culture he pioneered? i dont imagine any other right wing thought leaders are going to want to put themselves at risk of being shot over and over again, now that its happened.
- beeflet 1y agoI think we can expect to see debaters behind inches of bulletproof glass
- cryptonector 1y agoOr maybe they should double down to say "this will not stand".
- sidcool 1y ago[flagged]
- RealityVoid 1y agoI am at a loss, honestly, it's all over the internet though, not just here. For me, it's the first time I hear of the guy, although I've seen some of TPUsa's work. I think there is a flywheel of outrage in the USA that is spiraling out of control.
- 303uru 1y agoAnother school shooting in CO today but for some reason this is allowed here.
- DamnInteresting 1y agoI went to college at this place (when it was Utah Valley State College [UVSC], before it was UVU). I spent a lot of time in that part of the campus over several years. How strange to see these events unfolding there. Kirk seems to be a person with whom I have scant philosophical agreement, but I prefer to converse with such people rather than watch them die. What an awful mess this all is.
- jake_brake 1y ago[flagged]
- John23832 1y agoRather than killing them? I would hope so. I can converse with them, say they're a dumbass, and move on.
- alessandru 1y agono you don't. these people don't argue to uncover the truth, they just provoke you into some debate-bro logical gotcha that is simply borne in ignorance. it's not even if you agree or not with him, he has no intention of ever learning your side, it's just a smorgasbord of conservative bs on repeat. murder bad. but this guy was a provocateur who tried to get the most "impact" for his side. that is why his hot takes are so insane. they aren't points to argue against, they are dog whistle rallying points for all the racists and misogynists to think society is theirs. so let's not defend his work as "just having opinions i disagree with" ...
- DamnInteresting 1y agoI am a liberal person who lives in a deeply conservative area (Utah). I have had many conversations with staunch conservatives, some of them close friends and family. One-on-one is different from the one-to-many format, or the one-to-one-in-front-of-others format. It's quite possible to have a civil conversation about such things when there isn't an audience. I have seldom (probably never) seen anyone have a big change of heart from such discussion, but often both sides concede a little, and it feels like progress toward common ground, minuscule though it may be.
- loughnane 1y agoThe sad irony is that he's at a college campus debating/arguing with people. At their best that's what college campuses are for. I know they haven't been living up to it lately but seeing him gunned down feels like a metaphor. I know he liked to publicize the exchanges where he got the best of someone, and bury the others, and that he was a far, far cry from a public intellectual. Still, he talked to folks about ideas, and that's something that we should have more of. That should be something that we strive for, but I fear we'll see it less and less. Who'se going to want to go around and argue with people now?
- thephyber 1y ago[flagged]
- dinkumthinkum 1y ago[flagged]
- ETH_start 1y agoIf you have a certain argument to a certain talking point, then you're always going to repeat that same argument whenever that talking point emerges. There's nothing bad faith about that. These kinds of arguments get repetitive so you're going to see people repeat the same points. As for the value of debate, even bad debate is better than nothing. Sometimes it feels like there's nothing being gained from it, but if you question people who have engaged in a lot of debates, you find that they're much more informed after the debates — even very acrimonious debates, where both sides are just trying to defeat the other side — than they were before it. A society needs people to communicate, for it to progress in its ability to effectively coordinate on complex social issues, and that process of communication is not going to be without warts, given how complex these social issues are, and how high the stakes are for a great number of people. Societies which embrace civil discourse and protect free speech are far better off for it. This killing strikes at the heart of a civil society.
- thephyber 1y ago
- sp527 1y ago[flagged]
- sterlind 1y agopragmatically, you can't kill an idea with bullets. terrorism does one thing only: it triggers retaliation. nihilistic accelerationists who want a war can use terror to provoke one. some of Charlie Kirk's last words: > ATTENDEE: Do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years? > KIRK: Too many. [Applause] I don't think the shooter was trans. but I'm trans, and I don't see this going well for me, or for my community. the DoJ was already talking about classifying us as "mentally defective" to take our guns. now there's a martyr. the hornet's nest is kicked. murdering this man was not just wrong, it was stupid.
- kashunstva 1y agoI vehemently disagree with all that Kirk seemed to advocate for, but agree that this debate, not murder, is the solution. That said, Kirk, in this exchange was not engaging in debate so much as theatrics. The question that was posed to him was intended to force him to acknowledge that being trans doesn’t seem to be associated with a unique propensity to engage in mass shootings. Instead, he responded in a way that was ideologically motivated. Quite a few people praised Kirk for engaging in debate, but if this is exemplary of his format, not bringing in facts, then I would call it more performative than debate. Regardless, this is awful; and I hope the repercussions for the trans community aren’t dire.
- croes 1y agoAt the same time the POTUS calls for murder of a metnally ill man should have been in treatment instead of being at large.
- nandomrumber 1y agoStrong families, community centred around positive religious values, open debate. Creating a society where women feel less inclined to have abortions.
- whatevaa 1y agoYou mean where woman are not allowed to have an abortion under any circumstance? Cause that is where you are headed at.
- ropable 1y agoAs an outsider, I can only offer my hope that somehow you all manage to collectively take a breath, agree that you're heading down a dark path, and take a few steps back towards consensus and compromise. Godspeed.
- billy99k 1y ago[flagged]
- 8note 1y agosorry, how long has charlie kirk been on college campuses? or is the true freedom that hes dead now?
- sakopov 1y agoIt's crazy to me how many people are lost talking about gun violence on here when he died as a victim of political violence. The problem is the mainstream narratives that are making people's brains melt who then go out and shoot people who disagree with them. Go read any comments to Kirk's videos on X. It is literally a fucking mental asylum.
- tim333 1y agoIt was likely both, at least we know for sure it was gun violence, we don't know the motivation of the shooter yet. In the Trump shooting attempt the motivation didn't seem very political so much as a loser type wanting fame and power.
- Balgair 1y agoOne thing I noticed here and elsewhere online today is that I've not seen any memories of Charlie. It's all been about the politics and ramifications of the assassination. But nothing about the man himself and how he positively impacted the lives of others, no matter how small. I'm certain this is my filter bubble, but it's still strange nonetheless. If anyone has any positive things to say about the man, I'd love to know them. As I'm on his political opposite, I never really engaged with his content or knew much past any controversy that boiled over.
- mc3301 1y ago[flagged]
- d0gsg0w00f 1y agoI think the "gotchas" were a side effect of his true mission. If you look at all the gotcha clips for Charlie Kirk and others like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson, they're not created by the official accounts, it's mostly leech accounts that grab the "best of" clips for their own click-bait benefit. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure the creators aren't sad that they have these followers but I don't think they go out looking for this.
- dinkumthinkum 1y agoWell, it's a good thing what you are saying is a lot of nonsense. You can easily go on YouTube and find many people speaking about all the positivity and caring Charlie brought into their lives, people from many different walks of life. So, nice try.
- al_borland 1y agoI turned on the Daily Wire’s live coverage briefly to see what they were saying. They were talking about Charlie as a person and holding back tears. The one guy was recounting a one-on-one basketball game they played where he thought he’s school Charlie, but quite the opposite happened. The other guy was mentioning how he loved to debate, not just in the forums like the schools, but even with his friends. And how he’d debate them even harder in private, and was willing to change his mind, searching for truth. They also talked about his faith for a while. I didn’t watch for too long. When I was switching it off they were brining a woman on and it sounded like she was going to tell some of her own stories about him. I think these people were actually friends with him vs the talking heads on many other networks reporting who only knew him through his work. If you want to hear the real stories, you need to get them from the people who were closer to him. He also had a wife and kids, I can only assume he has some positive impact on their lives. His kids would have no concept of what he is professionally, he’d just be “dad”.
- enricozb 1y agoI have such disdain for the e/acc crowd given that I believe that "we do not understand the consequences of what we are building". But now I'm not sure if it's fair to ignore the consequences of building Twitter, or even the internet. Seeing people's behavior during this event has been incredibly disheartening. The wikivoyage page for the United States explicitly advises that neither politics nor religion should be discussed when meeting people in this country. How did we get to this point.
- rigrassm 1y ago> I have such disdain for the e/acc crowd given that I believe that "we do not understand the consequences of what we are building". > But now I'm not sure if it's fair to ignore the consequences of building Twitter, or even the internet. Seeing people's behavior during this event has been incredibly disheartening. For at least the last 5 or so years I've been right there with you with the same thoughts and concerns. I'm completely convinced after what I saw today that global social media platforms were and still are a mistake. Especially so for the younger generations that have never known a world without them.
- solid_fuel 1y ago> How did we get to this point. I don't think we ever left? The KKK was still marching in the annual parade in my home town when I was born, in 1994. Emmett Till was lynched in 1955, and still - to this day - racists make a habit of shooting at the memorial sign. [0] Forget don't talk about politics or religion, there's still large portions of the US where you should avoid being visibly black or gay if you want to stay safe. [0] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/emmett-till-memorial-be-replaced-bulletproof-sign-due-repeated-vandalism-180972753/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/emmett-till-memori...
- enricozb 1y agoWhen I say "how did we get here", I don't mean "how did we end up with these opinions (e.g. racism) on our soil". I mean something more like: 1. Why is discussing these things so difficult? So many internet forums are a pure deluge of unkindness, anger, and dishonest discussion. 2. There was a video of someone promoting their social media handle and asking people to subscribe with the backdrop of the shooting. How does someone end up acting like this? I do not think there will be a time where racism is eradicated like a disease, but I think it's possible to confine it to small spaces and individuals. Similar to how I believe the majority of views like pedophelia: people with those mindsets exist, they don't form (huge) groups, and are generally consistently condemned. With the values I believe the US to have (tolerance of opinions and religion) this will always be a constant struggle. Continuing with this disease analogy, the internet + social media has removed all possible herd immunity strategies to stupid ideas. People with any kind of ideology can search up their groups and commiserate, without ever encountering a differing viewpoint. Furthermore, people are offloading their thoughts more and more to LLM's, so much so that we're becoming the mental equivalent of those wall-e humans [0]. We're not thinking for ourselves. Other people are thinking for us, delivering those thoughts to us, pre-digested. This leads to reactionary behavior, I think. And in an environment with such a reactionary populace, populism becomes so easy to exploit. [0]: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1100/format:webp/1*uFKfjnksJRRWrtnv1JTuiw.png https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1100/format:webp/1*uFK... P.S. Sorry for the rambling. You're not wrong that the US has been, and still is, incredibly hostile to specifically identifiable groups of people. However, I think that the ability to discuss how to go about solving/remedying/containing this has been uniquely hampered in the last 20 years.
- 7402 1y agoI posted this article about political violence from Politico 3 months ago. It got 3 votes and sank. But it resurfaced on their website today because of this event (they revised the title of the front page link to make the subject more clear) so I'll bring it up again: How Does the Cycle of Political Violence End? Here's What an Expert Says. (Was: The Kindling Is a Lot Drier Than It Used to Be) https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/06/02/political-violence-boulder-attack-00381778 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/06/02/political-... The author's point is that political violence does occur in cycles, and one thing that makes a cycle run down is when it gets gets so awful that universal revulsion overtakes the political advantages of increasing radicaloric and action. He gives examples, which may be within the living memory of older HN readers (like me): "I can remember back in the ’60s, early ’70s, it felt like the political violence was never going to end. I mean, if you were an Italian in the ’60s or the ’70s, major political and judicial figures, including prime ministers, were getting bumped off on a regular basis. And it seemed like it was never going to end, but it did. It seemed like the anarchist violence of the early 20th century — it lasted for a couple of decades, killed the U.S. president — it seemed that was never going to end either, but it does. These things burn themselves out." and: "You had the assassination of the U.S. president, of Martin Luther King, of Bobby Kennedy. And then it stopped. People shied away from political violence. Exactly why it stopped, I don’t know, but it did. It wasn’t just assassinations, it was also street violence. And then things calmed down." This is not particularly optimistic, but it it's an interesting analysis.
- sixo 1y agoThis feels like it's not accounting at all for changes in enforcement.
- malcolmgreaves 1y agoI personally believe that every violent death is tragic and should be avoidable. But how many of us can say that they died for what they believe in? [1] Isn’t this really a personal victory for him at the end of the day? > I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. I hope he had solace and peace in his final moments, knowing that he kept true to his words right up until the end. Thanks for the sacrifice for our god given rights to stand up to a tyrannical government! [1] https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-205500283.html https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-20550...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- suzzer99 1y agoNick Fuentes built his entire empire on hating Charlie Kirk, and his fans (groypers) are insane. Laura Loomer just came out and attacked Kirk a couple days ago. It's entirely possible he was fragged from the right.
- TheFreim 1y agoIt's not impossible, but I find this to be very unlikely. Nick Fuentes has repeatedly condemned political violence for years, he and his followers have also been trying to get Kirk to debate him, so killing is counter-productive from that perspective. Furthermore, the "attacks" by Laura Loomer that I've seen don't get anywhere near calling for violence.
- suzzer99 1y agoIf you were going to have an organized hit from some kind of unnamed leftist extremist group, I could think of a dozen more impactful targets than Kirk off the top of my head. So I don't know how much sense that theory makes either. If it's a lone nut, that could come from anywhere.
- emseetech 1y ago| I find this to be very unlikely. And yet, here we are.
- ModernMech 1y ago> It's not impossible, but I find this to be very unlikely. Now that it turned out to be a groyper, you'll have to recalibrate your priors. Turns out it's the people who buy the most guns who are the most violent.
- _wire_ 1y ago[flagged]
- whateveracct 1y agothe entire situation is dripping in macabre irony the question about gun rights, the "prove me wrong" tent, the "constitutional carry" state the event is held in
- npteljes 1y ago[flagged]
- jalapenos 1y agoVery unlikely the shooter didn't have that in mind. I also doubt that Kirk hadn't accepted or considered a martyrdom outcome like this.
- twixfel 1y agoI very much doubt he ever expected that he would ever the victim of gun violence that he elsewhere accepted as an acceptable price to be paid.
- alickz 1y ago[flagged]
- linhns 1y agoWhile I'm not a fan of Charlie's beliefs, actions and his brand of conservatism, he was willing to go across the political divide and foster debates with those that do not share his values. Condolences to his young family and everyone close to him.
- croes 1y agoHe was willing to debate to his own advantage. He used the less talented debaters to ridicule the opposing side.
- jalapenos 1y agoBoth sides routinely do this. Do you like this outcome, croes? Be honest... It's the internet so you can speak your true feelings
- Hasnep 1y agoI'm interested to know who you think is a leftist Ben Shapiro/Charlie Kirk type who debates right wing students. I haven't heard of any, but I'm sure they exist.
- jalapenos 1y agoI too haven't heard of any right wing students, but I'm sure they exist
- midasz 1y agoIt's a bit odd to claim both sides do something but not elaborate when asked for more info. Seems disingenuous.
- jalapenos 1y agoNo, it's flippant. What's disingenuous is substituting my "this" for whatever one pleases, when in context it was obviously the concepts referred to in the post it replied to - debating for one's own advantage, and milking wins against weak interlocutors.
- guiomie 1y ago[flagged]
- kaycey2022 1y agoI'm from India. In the last few months it has become exceedingly clear how much racist disdain people like Charlie Kirk have towards people from my country. But what you just said, is just misguided and off putting, nonsense. This line can be used against anyone and can be used to condemn anyone. People should be punished for what they have done, not for what someone thinks they will do. By the way, I don't have much faith in free speech but I value being able to see people for who they are.
- lp0_on_fire 1y ago> apologies for getting Goodwin's law in this conversation uh huh.
- jjani 1y ago2 Minnesota lawmakers shot in politically motivated killings, governor says (cbc.ca) 102 points by awnird 88 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 19 comments Interesting to see the 100x(!) attention that this gets on HN, likely representative of similar media reach on more mainstream channels, when it's not even lawmakers in this case.
- like_any_other 1y agoThose are not the only recent political killings: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45203644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45203644 > not even lawmakers But he was more famous than those lawmakers.
- jameslk 1y agoYou posted about this a few times already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208072 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45208072 The comparison with the Minnesota lawmaker murders submission sounds political and you seem to care about this aspect a lot to mention it 3 times If you’re genuinely curious why this event is likely getting so much attention, I’d wager it has less to do with politics than it has with the fact that this occurred in front of thousands of people, mainly young students, and was recorded by many on their phones. It was also being broadcast I believe. Multiple angles of a very graphic video of a person getting murdered are all over the internet It’s terrible when innocent people are murdered. In this case, many people watched it happen too
- antifa 1y ago[flagged]
- shdh 1y agoOne quick Google search: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114682713948931541 https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/1146827139489... One was a political figure for the current regime, the other was a largely unknown lawmaker. Both murders are wrong, but this is being framed in a silly way by you.
- exodust 1y agoMy 2 cents from Australia. At the very least he encouraged debate, and motivated others to challenge and vigorously discuss ideas, data, history, politics and perspectives. That's healthy, not dangerous. We're meant to defend the right of such activities. I didn't agree with his religious convictions that underpin much of his arguments, but that's because I'm not religious. He presented other arguments on various social issues that sounded sensible. He also respected anyone who fronted his events, listening & engaging intellectually in a civil manner. Apparently his last word spoken was "violence" (unconfirmed). Anyone celebrating his death is an extremist, and if that turns out to be a lot of people, then we have a bigger extremism problem than people care to admit. How to fix that? We need more bipartisan condemnation and unity across the floor - in my country too. Sounds like they couldn't even agree on a moment of silence without a shouting match. The division is fuel for extremism.
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- phendrenad2 1y agoPure hyperbole, you have to construct a pretty elaborate web of half-truths to try to make him out to have zero empathy
- footlose_3815 1y agoReality is often a parody of itself. Did you know he famously quoted that empathy "Does a lot of damage"? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-empathy-quote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-empathy-quote...
- dragonwriter 1y agoHe literally rejected the concept of empathy as a harmful new-age-ism.
- phendrenad2 1y ago[flagged]
- dragonwriter 1y agoI literally think he explicitly said that because I have seen him explicitly saying that, vert clearly, while contrasting it with something else. There was nothing off the cuff about it; agree with it or not, it was obviously a position into which thought had beten put and which had a clear rationale and important place in his world-view. Now, there’s probably an argument that could be made that at least some of what people are trying to suggest by pointing to his rejection of empathy is contradicted by his support of sympathy in the same statement. But to make that argument, you’d have to not be doing the same kind of shallow tribal reaction posting that ignores facts and substance that you are accusing others of.
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- phendrenad2 1y agoYikes. Still time to delete this and post under a throwaway.
- bigyabai 1y agoTheir only mistake was the quote. Here's the actual quotation: "I think it’s worth it. I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."
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- npteljes 1y agoTo attack at an open debate event like this is an attack on democracy itself. Discourse should never be discouraged.
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- akkad33 1y agoThis post has more engagement than any other post on the front page. It seems hackernews has been overrun by a certain crowd whom this death seems newsworthy
- dang 1y agoNo, these are mostly regular users who post about eBPF or Haskell under other circumstances. You can check that yourself by looking at commenting histories, which are public. If the situation were as you say, we could deal with it by banning the "overrunners" who are not here to use HN as intended. But it's not that—it's that the community is divided in much the ways that society at large is divided, and that divisive topics generate strong reactions.
- rbanffy 1y agoI understand why people would hate him, but even being a terrible human being doesn’t carry an automatic death penalty. We are better than that.
- licebmi__at__ 1y agoLeaving personal feelings about the person. What exactly does 2nd amendment guys think using guns to fight "tyranny" looks like? People rising up to a group of people clad on black clothes and an eerily fascist reminiscent symbol ala rickandmorty? Some people using guns to defend themselves against who they believe are the harbingers of this authoritarian State is 2nd amendment working as intended. Not a "tragic but necessary sacrifice" as some will put school shootings, but actually what right to bear arms is supposed to be about. And it's immaterial if you ultimately disagree to whether this administration is authoritarian, but these things will keep happening as long as enough people believe that to be the case. It's a feature, not a bug.
- account42 1y agoYou're talking about the murder of a media personality, not a tyrant or even someone who has any say in how the government is run. You don't fight tyranny by eliminating people just because they have different opinions.
- antifa 1y ago[flagged]
- blks 1y agoWould an attack on Goebbels be seen as fighting the tyranny?
- mrsopa 1y agoEveryone invoking Godwin's law. This is exactly what Charlie was about, having an open discussion with someone, listening to each other, even those you disagree with. Free speech was attacked today and for that we all lost something important. Any comparison to Goebbels is absurd.
- whatever1 1y agoThe argument that I keep hearing that he was just a guy talking does not quite fly. The most horrible people in history did not do any physical harm to other people themselves. Many were also very nice to hang out with and had lovely families. But they definitely inspired and ordered others to do unimaginably horrible acts.
- peterspath 1y agoOne quote of Charlie’s that resonates deeply with me is: """ When people stop talking, really bad stuff starts. When marriages stop talking, divorce happens. When civilisations stop talking, civil war ensues. When you stop having a human connection with someone you disagree with, it becomes a lot easier to want to commit violence against that group. What we as a culture have to get back to, is being able to have reasonable disagreement, where violence is not an option. """ This belief in the power of conversation over conflict defined Charlie’s work. He didn’t just preach ideas; he lived them, fostering discussions that encouraged understanding despite disagreement. I did not agree with all his standpoints, but what I admired most was his insistence that dialogue could bridge divides.
- charlescearl 1y agoThe american state was brought into existence and persists through unrelenting political violence - internal and external. The estimated 90% of Indigenous population that perished; persistent excess deqths of indigenous peoples https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1698152/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1698152/; persistent racialized violence perpetrated by the state on Black communities; the exploitation and arbitrary state violence upon documented and undocumented non-citizen workers (or those perceived to be non-citizens); the 5 million that have perished during GWOT; the 5 million or so excess USSR deaths from US policies during the early 1990s; the violence of carceral warfare (the so-called “mass incarceration”) against racialized populations. Aime Cesaire called it “imperial boomerang”; Malcolm X said “chickens coming home to roost”. Yet the only form of violence that legible to the bourgeoisie is even the prospect of resistance & counterviolence - most of the recent attacks upon capitalists & those labeled as “right wing” seem to have not come from “the left”.
- goku12 1y agoI completely disagree with Charlie Kirk's rather unsympathetic preachings on many topics. But this act - it gives me a very sinking feeling. What worries me more than the yet undetermined identity of the killer is how a lot of people are responding to the news. Why do some people celebrate his death? This was not a person who was declared as an enemy of the state. He was someone holding a public political debate. Can't they see that this incident is going to have extreme repercussions on their own welfare and the values they stand for? Can't they see the fear, pain and tears on the other side, that's gradually getting replaced by outrage and resentment? How do politics make people so blind to the suffering of the others? Doesn't the nation exist to support opposing ideas without such carnage? I know that Kirk has expressed opinion that downplayed the value of human life (like in case of gun rights). But how does that make the side that advocated for dignity, equality and empathy just suspend those values in his case? You can't seriously convince any opponent with violence or hatred. And guns aren't the best tools for genuine persuasion. The mockery of their pain will only lead to their conviction and resolve. And at some point, it will become irreversible. Please don't let politics and bias cloud your judgment. This isn't a victory for your cause. And no matter what sort of a person Kirk was, his role in this world is over rather abruptly. His grizzly demise displayed around the world leaves terrible wounds in the psyche of his family, friends, followers and numerous others. I hope that their pain doesn't mutate into destructive energy. I hope that they find the strength to overcome it and find peace.
- jalapenos 1y agoThey celebrate it because that's the kind of beings that they are, and they can do no better. They feel that someone communicating ideas that challenge theirs is such an affront - such a disturbance to their self-assured sense of personal rightness and superiority - that that person's death is a good solution. Or to put it another way - they're like this because they're confident they won't receive comeuppance for being so. It's like a "what you gonna do?" frolic.
- goku12 1y agoI thought there was something wrong with me because of how many people were celebrating an assassination! But realized it was not, when people from my native culture were all shocked and surprised by the same. In spite of being bad at processing emotional signals from the others, I can easily imagine myself on the other side and see how such responses will affect them. How much empathy do you need to be able to do that? It's like an entire generation is suffering from a serious emotional malady. It feels like the entire society got derailed morally and ethically. What happened? Did education fail everyone that much?
- mkfs 1y agoDo leftists, especially the ones one reddit, not realize that to a normal person, Kirk wasn't George Lincoln Rockwell, but just some boring, establishment Christian, conservative dweeb doing the well-worn campus "debate me bro" shtick of Shapiro and Crowder before him, and that the optics of them celebrating his death are really, really bad?
- geon 1y agoI’m probably exactly who you would classify as a ”leftist on reddit”. I haven’t seen a single comment on there celebrating.
- phendrenad2 1y agoOh that's strange, you must have juuuust missed it, try X or Bluesky or Facebook or Instagram or Tiktok.
- geon 1y agoI don’t use any of those.
- josephcsible 1y agoThe mods are removing them, so you're only likely to see them directly on Reddit if you're sorting by new. Here's some screenshots of them: https://x.com/CaplingerMi/status/1965869049138786753 https://x.com/CaplingerMi/status/1965869049138786753 https://x.com/Vespianum/status/1965859021816320085 https://x.com/Vespianum/status/1965859021816320085 https://x.com/pt_grimes/status/1965862663520661847 https://x.com/pt_grimes/status/1965862663520661847
- stevenhubertron 1y agoSure seems more and more like some person or nature is seeking to destabilize us. Seems anti-American to blame the other side and not realize we are better together.
- geon 1y agoYou are fully capable of doing it to yourselves.
- Mr_Eri_Atlov 1y ago[flagged]
- nailer 1y agoGive the full quote. He’s saying empathy as it is used now, is used to excuse evil. Just like equity is. Words change meaning. If you can’t understand or pretend you can’t because those are left wing examples, “make America great again” has also changed its meaning - it means something different than it would have in 2010.
- Mr_Eri_Atlov 1y ago[flagged]
- stronglikedan 1y agoThat's simply not true, and seems more like what you've heard than what you've witnessed. A common theme here it seems.
- HelloMcFly 1y agoWhat's the full quote? I can't find it. But I'm familiar with the larger talking point coming out of nationalistic right-wing Christianity around "empathy is a sin". In that movement the definition of "empathy" is unchanged, the argument is instead advanced that it is spiritually dangerous because it elevates human experience above "God's truth". This is not a widely-held belief, and is closer associated with nationalistic Christianity vs. broader American Christianity.
- judahmeek 1y agoThe quote is from the end of this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/s/kzfXmBhFN9 https://www.reddit.com/r/ToiletPaperUSA/s/kzfXmBhFN9 Looks like it's from his podcast.
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- paulryanrogers 1y agoThe intensity of right vs left political violence does not appear to match your conclusion. https://ccjs.umd.edu/feature/umd-led-study-shows-disparities-violence-among-extremist-groups https://ccjs.umd.edu/feature/umd-led-study-shows-disparities...
- complianceowl 1y ago[flagged]
- cderg 1y agoThose are relatively niche beliefs even on the left. There's a difference between what is said by politicians and what the general public think.
- EnergyAmy 1y agoLoud minority for sure. Republicans are right about biological sex being real (it's based off of gamete size, not chromosomes exactly), but that's more of a broken clock being right twice a day. Gender ideology had its run and is past the high water mark. When it's gone, Republicans won't even have that hobby horse.
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- amai 1y ago"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind." (Hosea 8:7)
- gayjew 1y ago[dead]
- antdke 1y agoFor the few that find this acceptable (or even celebrate this), then they must also be able to say: “If I say something that someone doesn’t like, then they are justified in killing me.” And accept it.
- mguerville 1y agoKirk spread misinformation and voiced opinions that were contributing to making the lives of several demographic groups more unsafe, repeatedly, for years, to a massive audience. Violence isn't the answer and I wish yesterday's event didn't happen, but his actions were a far cry from just "saying something someone might not like" The first amendment is important, but it has boundaries, and Kirk made a living from being very close (arguably sometimes over) these boundaries. I think his message, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, will be carried on by others, as is their right. But I hope they do it in ways that are more firmly within the healthy boundaries of the first amendment. And if they don't, it should be the courts that decides if they should be penalized, not a lone armed civilian.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- HaZeust 1y ago>"And if they don't, it should be the courts that decides if they should be penalized, not a lone armed civilian." And what happens when the courts are to no longer be trusted for impartial or otherwise reasonable verdicts? We use randomness to control corruption in courts through the likes of juries, but First Amendment civil cases are almost always bench trials decided by a judge, or motions via summary judgement. Not juries. What's our fallback and our "check" there?
- zahlman 1y ago> opinions that were contributing to making the lives of several demographic groups more unsafe Mere opinions cannot do this, even in principle. As I'm sure you're aware, merely voicing opinions doesn't cause people to agree, either. > The first amendment is important, but it has boundaries, and Kirk made a living from being very close (arguably sometimes over) these boundaries. The boundaries are far tighter than you imply. Nothing I have seen him say comes anywhere close at all. Even the most uncharitable representations being spread around of his out-of-context excerpts would absolutely be protected speech in the USA. I am not a lawyer but I have spent a lot of time researching this. When Kirk and others like him say that US law does not recognize a concept of "hate speech", they are objectively correct. Wikipedia agrees: > Hate speech in the United States cannot be directly regulated by the government due to the fundamental right to freedom of speech protected by the Constitution.[1] While "hate speech" is not a legal term in the United States, the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that most of what would qualify as hate speech in other western countries is legally protected speech under the First Amendment. In a Supreme Court case on the issue, Matal v. Tam (2017), the justices unanimously reaffirmed that there is effectively no "hate speech" exception to the free speech rights protected by the First Amendment and that the U.S. government may not discriminate against speech on the basis of the speaker's viewpoint.[2] Note that this was a unanimous reaffirmation, in quite recent, very ideologically polarized history.
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- throwaway091025 1y ago"On September 10, 2025, at approximately 12:24PM, Conservative political influencer Charlie Kirk was shot and killed at the Utah Valley University in Orem, UT. Mr. Kirk was speaking at the University as part of the American Comeback Tour. Multiple SLC I and III agents responded immediately. The suspect fired one shot from an elevated position on a rooftop in an adjacent building on the campus and surveillance video shows the suspect, jumping off and fleeing the area on foot. ATF and other law-enforcement located an older model imported Mauser .30-06 caliber bolt action rifle wrapped in a towel in a wooded area near the campus. The location of the firearm appears to match the suspects route of travel. The spent cartridge was still chambered in addition to three unspent rounds at the top fed magazine. All cartridges have engraved wording on them, expressing transgender and anti-fascist ideology. An emergency trace has been submitted an ATF SLC is working leads generated by the trace. The firearm and ammunition have been taken by the FBI for DNA analysis and fingerprint impressions. Upon completion of forensics, the firearm will be disassembled for additional importer information. Multiple people of interest having contacted or detained because of eyewitness testimony and review of video footage. The primary suspect is yet to be identified. ATF is assisting the investigation with multiple other federal, state, and local partners and the case is co-led by the FBI and Utah SBI."
- pxc 1y agoThere was a school shooting on the same day as Kirk's death: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/students-wounded-shooting-colorado-evergreen-high-school-rcna230465 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/students-wounded-shooti... If he were still alive, he would be writing and speaking about how such violence is unfortunate but ultimately acceptable— even necessary— to "preserve our freedoms", brushing it aside to be forgotten. He of course did so many times in life, notably in 2023 when he was quoted doing so in the media: https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-says-gun-deaths-worth-it-2nd-amendment-1793113 https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-says-gun-deaths-worth-... Kirk's death has already overshadowed the news of that school shooting, which will indeed be forgotten by most long before we stop talking about him. One final victory for Charlie Kirk, I guess.
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- lunarboy 1y agoYou're really trying to convince me people care about kids but we've been having school shooting for 30 years? And that the length or frequency of events makes them okay, or not worth mentioning? So 30 years of more frequent assassinations should be make similar types of events okay? To use "you're probably one of those" and "argue in good faith" in the same comment is pretty wild work.
- diogenescynic 1y ago[flagged]
- pxc 1y agoI think the world was a worse place for Kirk's influence, whatever it amounted to. I think the circumstances of his death and the reporting on it are deeply ironic. But I can't feel joy at his murder. I just feel sick and anxious. What I feel is nausea about the ongoing destabilization of American life and institutions. What I feel is worry about the danger so many people are in right now, the backlash this event is likely to cause, and the way this will fuel an acceleration of Trump's illegal military occupations of American cities whose citizens or officials Trump finds politically disagreeable. And in the back of my mind I also wonder what will become of Kirk's children, who are very young. But I can't summon either glee or grief. All I've got is irony and deep unease, at least for now.
- satisfice 1y agoRegardless of your take on political violence. Studying the history of especially the French and Haitian revolutions is instructive. Going down the road of civil war sounds good to some of us, but the reality of civil war is incredibly bleak. The Haitians have still not recovered after 225 years. It’s mind boggling how violent and destructive it can get once people completely give up on the humanity of other people. So, let’s keep trying for more peaceful lives. Even angry peace is better.
- incomingpain 1y agoI’m Canadian, and US politics is a massive distraction and influence on ours. It gives me an objective view of their system because their problems often spill over into ours. I usually try to avoid diving into US politics, so I didn’t follow Charlie. Still, he was deeply respected by all of my political allies in Canada. I don’t know all of his positions, but I’d bet we agreed a lot. One thing that’s shifted in my lifetime is the polarization of US politics. Republicans edged somewhat left because several outspoken anti-gay senators were later revealed to be gay. But Democrats swung much further left, and it’s been costing them elections. The polarization worsened as Democrats regularly dehumanized and attacked Republicans as fascists and racists. My expectation is that the recent attack of charlie kirk by south park is a key factor in this political assassination. Charlie’s mission was to break that cycle. He stood for open discussion without violence. He often said the great failure of today’s politics is that Democrats and Republicans can’t even talk to each other. And when husband and wife stop talking, they end up divorcing. The democrats/liberals ended that yesterday. There's no 1 entity to blame here. But how can anyone risk their NECK trying to have proper democratic conversations and debate anymore? You cant. The conversation is over. Divorce is coming.
- nick_ 1y agoI'm also Canadian. Your interpretation of Kirk's "mission" is curious. To the rest of us, his "open discussion" was clearly and obviously rhetorical. The public performances that made him famous were undoubtedly designed specifically to incite college students into making clumsy arguments they weren't prepared for. Not only is that bad faith and predatory in the context of political debate, but Steven Crowder came up with that schtick. Blaming democrats/liberals for his death is also curious. Could you expand on how you're so sure about that? As far as I know, no suspect nor motive is known at this time.
- xvector 1y agoThe bullets were literally found with transgender and antifa ideology engraved on them.
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- paulryanrogers 1y agoCan you help me understand the Taylor Swift analogy?
- bigyabai 1y agoCurious why you say that, Taylor Swift had a markedly different career.
- HankStallone 1y agoYes, it's a poor analogy. Taylor swift is a megastar at the top of her industry. Everyone has heard her music and seen her in ads, even if you didn't ask to. Charlie Kirk was one of many conservative speakers, and plenty of Trump voters never heard him speak. That's not a criticism of the man, just the reality of how reputations get blown out of proportion for the media's purposes. A better analogy would be David Hogg: a young man who could appeal to the younger generation in his own party, and who could engage in fiery rhetoric at times but also tried to engage with the other side.
- fawkesalbus 1y agoFair points. I was looking at it more from the perspective of star power and name recognition at such a young age. Also the fact that Taylor Swift causes irrational excitement among her followers and went out of her way to more or less endorse Kamala for president. I assumed that pretty much the vast majority of conservatives knew about Charlie. I oscillate between center left (e.g pro abortion with few restrictions, in favor of assault weapons restrictions etc) and center right (e.g pro second amendment, pro free speech, against DEI etc) and disagree with Charlie on a lot of things but even I found his videos useful and enlightening. Regarding Charlie being just one of many conservative speakers, that’s like saying Taylor is just one of many singers. And David Hogg is no where close to being there yet. He capitalized on the horrifying stoneman shootings to propel himself to some name recognition but I don’t think he (or Harry Sisson who I find similar to Hogg) could hold a candle to Charlie on a debate around our constitution, history etc. Just my observations/opinions.
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- tetromino_ 1y agoFor one thing, because threads about BLM protesters and cars didn't blow up like this one with 2000+ comments. For another, Dang judged - probably correctly - that a large fraction of people active on HN thoroughly hated Kirk. Without the warning, he might have needed to ban a lot of active and useful contributors, and he'd rather not need to do that.
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- kiitos 1y agoif you go to https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/last-72-hours https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/last-72-hours as of right now (11 sep 2025 2145h utc) you actually can't find this dude's death in the list any more, and that list includes minimum 51 victim deaths since his every one of those victims is infinitely more deserving of attention and sympathy than this absolute chucklefuck
- Modified3019 1y agoThe following sums up my thoughts far better than I could have: https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/09/no-i-wont-be-shedding-any-tears-for-charlie-kirk/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/09/no-i-wont-be-shedding-an... The only thing to mourn about this guy, is the life he should have lived, not the one he did.
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- donkeylazy456 1y agoI feel tremendously sad for his death. I also feel desperated when right-wingers talks about vengeance or backlash because it is not clear or doesn't matter if the murderer is left-winger. I thought they were totally silent against gun control when school shootings and latest Democratic politician assassin. I am not American but looking at society trust falling down does not feel good man.
- Babkock 1y agoI'm sorry to say this but I just enjoy the irony of it all. His last words were "Counting or not counting gang violence?". He literally died arguing for less gun control, saying mass violence and death is acceptable. I guess he found out the hard way the consequences of spreading hateful, bigoted, divisive, evil shit. Ben Shapiro cancelled a bunch of his visits to college campuses, I think that's hilarious - I wouldn't shed any tears for him, either. What if Trump is behind this, and he had him killed to distract from the Epstein files business? He could also blame it on the liberals and the left, and make his own party look like victims.
- WhereIsTheTruth 1y agoThis network of far-right influencers was begging for it, it fuels their narrative even more It’s interesting that these kinds of things happen in the US, the very country that keeps blaming and justifying interference & invasion in nations where similar events occur So, which country should now deploy its military to the US in an attempt to restore law and order?
- nailer 1y agoThere are no far right influencers being discussed.
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- gogusrl 1y agoAnd unfortunately he was one of those gun deaths that protect their God-given right. He really did die for what he believed in and should be celebrated for that.
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- nailer 1y ago> If we could ask Charlie, I am sure he'd also think it was worth it! Yes, agreed. He already did. He wouldn't want to disarm the nation to prevent his own death. > I have no sympathy for white supremacists Yes agreed, I sure Kirk would agree too, but that's offtopic here. > Charlie once said that George Floyd was a "scumbag" George Floyd was a scumbag. If you hold a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach, you're a scumbag. > I am sure Charlie would have greatly appreciated me exercising my first! Yes, agreed. He wouldn't share your opinion but he would support your right to free speech.
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- Bender 1y agoThe shooter was identified [1] and is in custody [2]. [1] - https://www.newsweek.com/tyler-robinson-roommate-charlie-kirk-bullet-engraving-message-rifle-2128964 https://www.newsweek.com/tyler-robinson-roommate-charlie-kir... [2] - https://www.newsweek.com/tyler-robinson-charlie-kirk-shooting-suspect-utah-2128910 https://www.newsweek.com/tyler-robinson-charlie-kirk-shootin...
- Bender 1y agoMore information. He may not have been working alone and his roommate may have delivered the weapon. [1] Debunking The Biggest Lies Told About Charlie Kirk [2] [1] - https://nypost.com/2025/09/13/us-news/charlie-kirk-shooter-tyler-robinson-lived-with-transgender-partner/ https://nypost.com/2025/09/13/us-news/charlie-kirk-shooter-t... [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N14ywRyTWVI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N14ywRyTWVI [video][56 mins]
- Bender 1y agohttps://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/13/us/kirk-killing-suspect-online-chat.html?unlocked_article_code=1.l08.zK8S.QPdY2RpEonjh&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/13/us/kirk-killing-suspect-o...
- silexia 1y agoMy theory on this and other recent shootings of this type: it is driven by the over medication of our youth, convincing them something is wrong with them for not wanting to sit still in factory schools. Our medical understanding of the drugs prescribed to kids that affect their brains is far smaller than it should be for how pervasive these drugs have become.
- petre 1y agoWe don't know that yet, but it might be also driven by social media radicalization. I'm also curious of the shooter's motives. Judging from the bullet engravings he might have thought he was shooting an awful person, but still, why waste your own life like this? Their wife and kids who were at the scene and maybe some other individuals will probably become radicalized now. Why? It doesn't make any sense.
- silexia 1y agoI agree with you. Social media radicalization is terrifying.
- xchip 1y agoYN, please make up your mind. You censored conversations about the genocide in Gaza because "this is just a tech blog" but now we can talk about this (an assassination that I consider a tragedy BTW)
- throawaywpg 1y agoAll the conspiracy theorizing is silly, imo. This is just another shot fired in the long history of American assassination. Charlie Kirk should be proud. The is the America he asked for. And this may be the beginning of a very violent period in American politics.
- Rakshith 1y ago[flagged]
- tomhow 1y agoWe've banned this account.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Slava_Propanei 1y ago[dead]