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TikTok goes dark in the US
- ashaikh 2y agoI’m just waiting for Truth Social to be identified as a potential buyer.
- throwaway48476 2y agoTime for the kids to pick up a book.
- zephyreon 2y agoSomeone should measure how much the collective mental health in America increases while TikTok is unavailable.
- jmyeet 2y agoSo I used a VPN to go to a different country and... I still get the "Tiktok banned" message, which is a little surprisingly honestly. I guess Tiktok have done this on an account basis rather than strictly GeoIP. The "learn more" link tells you that you can still download your data. I'm not sure how. Website maybe? Because the app only has "learn more" and "close app" as options. Interestingly the fyp still loads and you see a video in the background. I do think it'll come back this week but it's not clear what the legal mechanism is. Since the ban has gone into effect the extension in the law doesn't seem to apply anymore. This would then seem to require Congressional action and there doesn't seem to be much appetite for that but maybe that's because Republicans in Congress want to give credit for saving Tiktok to Trump when he becomes president on Monday. Another option being talked about is nonenforcement by the Department of Justice. Some dismiss this by saying "the DoJ can change their mind" but that's not strictly true. Defendants in a case can rely on statements by prosecutors. It's a valid defense. If the Attorney-General makes an official statement saying "we will not prosecute Amazon or Google or Tiktok for 90 days (or whatever) while we work this out", that's absolutely a legal defense should the DoJ ever change their mind. Basically, this is now a shakedown as some Trump allies will seek forcibly buy Tiktok or at least a large stake in it as a price for its continued operation in the US. It's unclear if Tiktok will acquiesce to this. Remember though, Bytedance has significant US investors so there are conflicting forces at play here.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoMight just be your device lang and timezone too.
- jmyeet 2y agoI did change my Region to another and using a VPN and still get it but yeah, I suspect they're looking at something extra from the device.
- abotsis 2y agoIs this a big surprise? The law banning it was rooted in national security, presumably because of location tracking. Them knowing where users are was kind of the problem…
- jonahhorowitz 2y agoOf course anyone who wanted to, including the Chinese, could just buy that exact data from data brokers in the US. It's readily available.[0] Nobody really believes this was about data. [0] - https://www.404media.co/candy-crush-tinder-myfitnesspal-see-the-thousands-of-apps-hijacked-to-spy-on-your-location/ https://www.404media.co/candy-crush-tinder-myfitnesspal-see-...
- ace22b 2y agoSigning up for a new non-US account works fine. As soon as I try to login to my US account it bricks the app. YMMV.
- tantalor 2y agoNo. Canada exists.
- ekwav 2y agoUsually the device language is reported with the country attached, should be en_CA or fr_CA.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoI wonder what new and incredible things American teens will learn about themselves and life tomorrow now that their phones are boring. Too bad this probably ends Monday.
- dqv 2y agoOh did they ban YouTube too? Thank God. https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2023/12/11/teens-social-media-and-technology-2023/ https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2023/12/11/teens-social...
- joshdavham 2y agoYouTube is currently the app that is ruining my life...
- wslh 2y agoIt is also weird that a few days ago in the YouTube non official SoaceX channel with millions of subscribers, an artificial Elon Musk asked people to send cryptocurrencies to an address. This was the biggest scam at scale in realtime that I experienced.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoI’ve been getting a lot of garbage grade YouTube ads too, like a video version of the crude weight loss drawing banner ads that ookla used to serve. I wonder if we’re being punished for using adblockers. Or are you saying the actual video was a scam?
- pixl97 2y ago>YouTube non official SoaceX channel with millions of subscribers This is a 50/50 split between YT and SpaceX on the problem. That spaceX does not broadcast it live on YT leaves an opening for the scammers to get a popular channel up. Now, the scammer channels you see are what happens when an actual big name channel with a lot of followers gets hacked, all the old videos deleted, then they start that feed of the launch and turn it to a bitcoin scam at/right after the launch part.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rvz 2y agoThe 170 million users of this digital crack / cocaine platform has now got their supply cut off and its users are desperately running for the next hit. Rednote "Xiaohongshu" appears to be where they are going to. It is also a test for "Rednote" and if they grow extremely fast in the next 90 days then that will be another ban target. But this is all temporary and they will run back to TikTok again. But again 170 million users just had their crack / cocaine supply cut off. Now is the time for them to reflect and cure their addiction.
- pokerface_86 2y agothe world would be an infinitely better place if those 170 million people were capable of that. unfortunately, i think, by virtue of consuming short form content in 2025, they are beyond help.
- forgetfulness 2y agoZuckerberg would rather have them hooked on the "save europa" content in his platform, there's little more than that to this ban.
- david927 2y agoIs this going to be a crazy year?
- kccoder 2y agoI’d be shocked if this is anywhere close to the craziest thing that happens this year, so, yes.
- SeanAnderson 2y agoThis'll be a pretty interesting psychological experiment. Tomorrow a whole lot of addicted people are going to be experiencing withdrawals at the same time. I have to assume nothing major will come of it, but still, there's not too many instances of this occurring in society, right?
- sfblah 2y agoMost people will just use Instagram Reels or YouTube shorts. They’re identical.
- sundaeofshock 2y agoYT sure. However, there are a lot of anger towards IG from TT users and creators.
- b11484 2y agoJust like C, C++ and C#
- hshshshshsh 2y agoOf course. If C goes away what you do. Code in C++ or quit programming.
- throwup238 2y ago“Quit programming” is excellent advice regardless of the language.
- sebastiennight 2y agoIf C went away, we would have to switch to ++ or #
- SeanAnderson 2y agoI do think this is one possible outcome. I didn't use TikTok (nor do I use reels or shorts), so I don't really feel educated enough to be as confident as you. I was browsing r/TikTok and the comments there certainly don't seem to imply that everyone is eager/interested in going to reels/shorts. I hardly even see those platforms mentioned in https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTok/comments/1i4p6s0/rip/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTok/comments/1i4p6s0/rip/ but it could just be sampling bias since I'm reading Reddit comments rather than looking for discussions on YouTube/Instagram. Still, it takes time to habituate to a new app's UI and culture. Even if people are willing and able to shift to a new platform I think there will be a lot of shared frustration in the short term.
- josh_carterPDX 2y agoIt'll be interesting to see how much the other social media platforms work to replicate the TikTok model if this ban ends up being permanent.
- vunderba 2y agoSo I have a relatively large extended family covering a wide age range and we talk pretty frequently in a shared SMS group - most of them have noted the ban with a passing level of irritation but nobody's "freaking out" like if you lost access to a platform like Facebook, Twitter, or Discord that's more oriented around communication rather than consumption. I understand that people spend a lot of time doomscrolling on it, but even with millions of daily users the optimistic side of me really wants to believe that it won't affect anyone's mental health in any measurable way.
- rvz 2y agoPerhaps this TikTok ban is a time to reflect around their addictions and cravings. A new year's resolution to go cold turkey and a chance to change a cure their own addictions. It is not the end of the world. Just the end of someone's supply of a brand of digital drug.
- FpUser 2y ago>"Perhaps this TikTok ban is a time to reflect around their addictions and cravings." And tell "go fuck yourself" to FB, Instagram, X ... etc.
- conradfr 2y agoAt the end of The Truman Show when it goes dark the cops don't switch off the TV, they look for another channel.
- croes 2y agoAnd the government won’t have a problem if the new digital drug is under their control.
- andrewflnr 2y agoThat's weird, my optimistic side is hoping it'll have a noticeable positive effect on people's mental health.
- 2y ago
- meyum33 2y agoI clicked open the link to find Yahoo has gone dark in China since 2021. Doesn’t work even with a VPN. I miss the good old days of the Web.
- geokon 2y agoThe chasm between the current tech world's culture and Barlow's "A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace" is really jarring
- dfex 2y ago> "We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace" I remember reading this in my mid-teens and it really speaking to me. Sometimes we tend to forget: nobody is forcing us to use the crap that "the Internet" has become home to. The Internet isn't the content, it's the network - the map is not the territory and the underlying architecture hasn't changed all that much. There will always be room to carve out your space and find your people.
- geokon 2y agoI mean there is still the FSF and there are plenty of interesting projects working in the decentralizing space. My point it's just really moved to the periphery and is a subculture (and tied to crypto, which has a lot of shady things associated with it). The mainstream tech culture seems extremely nationalistic and terrified of the possibilities of a supranational unregulated unmoderated internet
- openrisk 2y agoIt was inevitable. Human affairs outside brief chaotic periods are typically regulated in terms of 'legitimate' authorities. The presice constitution of such authority has changed over the aeons (bloodlines, theology etc) but in the modern world has settled on the nation-state. Everything, from the exercise of power, to the financial system and granting licenses to operate is granted by the state. In retrospect what is surprising is how long it took for such a disruptive new technology to register with existing power structures (at least explicitly).
- dabei 2y agoDid they also delist themselves from the App Store or is that by Apple and Google?
- justinzollars 2y agoYes.
- derektank 2y agoThe text of the bill explicitly holds app marketplaces liable for civil penalties if they distribute "foreign adversary controlled applications". So my guess is that Apple and Google are both opting to prevent distribution, even if ByteDance is willing to delist TikTok itself https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521...
- FpUser 2y ago>"The text of the bill explicitly holds app marketplaces liable for civil penalties if they distribute "foreign adversary controlled applications"." Spirit of the script seems to be stolen straight from the former USSR
- thatguymike 2y agoA huge shame it'll be undone in 24 hours. Shouting out Trump by name in the ban message is hilarious, they are really doing their best to tie his hands.
- Trasmatta 2y agoIt's extra bizarre, because Trump is the one that made the initial move towards banning TikTok during his first term.
- cycrutchfield 2y agoThat was before Jeff Yass gave him a bunch of money.
- paulcole 2y agoNot bizarre at all. Trump doesn’t need to ever acknowledge that he’s the one who made that initial move. Just take credit for saving it now. Maybe if he’s feeling himself he’ll say it was a 4D chess move to make Biden look like a bozo by being the one to ban it just for him to swoop in and undo the ban in 48 hours. It’s impossible to gotcha a guy who pretends the past never happened — or who insists that his imagination of the past is accurate.
- Karrot_Kream 2y agoExactly. That and trying to bury the lede about the Biden Administration's role in the Gaza ceasefire would send a signal to a huge chunk of voters alienated from the Democratic Party that the Republicans care about them. I'm afraid (though unsure how realistic my fear is) that a enough GenZ and anti-Gaza voters will flip to Trump if Trump keeps TikTok going that the Democrats won't be able to win in the midterms. A lot of the anti-TikTok sentiment seems to revolve around the mores of college-educated, upper-middle-class white GenX and Millenial mores, which the Republicans have gleefully used as punching bags.
- Trasmatta 2y ago
- jedimastert 2y agoI'm really curious and somewhat worried about what the economic effect of this is going to be. There are a number of legitimate small businesses that saw a lot of, if not all of, their business and customer base through TikTok. Business that just will not be able to make the move to somewhere else. I personally know musicians, actors, and artists that got a lot of work through TikTok. People who actually create things, and people who just used the app to make ends meet who probably aren't going to make ends meet this month
- jmspring 2y agoThere are other properties to pivot to. ByteDance had the chance to sell, the access to data that even credit bureaus would want is too much for a foreign adversary.
- jonahhorowitz 2y agoAre there? Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts are awful in comparison to the TikTok experience. Red Note is funny, but not really a replacement. Nobody is going to go to Snap.
- 0x6c6f6c 2y agoWe utilize every platform equally. TikTok organically grew at least 5x the followership for our business, meanwhile Meta gouges us for advertising to be seen at all and we see worse results and interactions there. No, these options are not truly equal, and many businesses will suffer.
- gemerald 2y agoYou should never be fully reliant on a single corporate platform if you make a living selling goods or services.
- 0x6c6f6c 2y agoYou can be fully aware of this and still have issues building up your platform elsewhere. We utilize every platform equally. TikTok organically grew at least 5x the followership for our business, meanwhile Meta gouges us for advertising to be seen at all and we see worse results and interactions there. The ban of TikTok will have resounding effects even if people are utilizing the alternatives. I've seen far too many people who haven't used TikTok and the alternatives for their business, or are not business owners at all, declare their opinions as facts when they have no actual experience in this space. I'm not saying this explicitly includes you, I don't make presumptions about your experience in this space.
- yett 2y agoTikTok just disappeared from the US Google Play Store
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- joeegan2202 2y agoConsider the proximity of Zuckerberg to the new admin, and the current admin, and remember that this is only market consolidation (data consolidation) around Reels and Shorts.
- xyst 2y agoyup, got to clamp down on the "rise up against the billionaire class" rhetoric. Billionaires want to replace the class war rhetoric with culture war, get the people distracted with bs. Meanwhile, the greatest grifter in the world is installing his kleptocracy cabinet, pushing more neoliberalism economic policies, tax cuts for the ultra wealthy at the cost of public programs. This country is absolutely cooked man.
- reaperducer 2y agoConsider the proximity of Zuckerberg to the new admin I guess you missed the nine million articles over the last few months about how the head of TikTok has been palling around with the new admin and is going to be proudly at the inauguration. Zuck is not the scapegoat you're hoping for.
- genocidicbunny 2y agoThis is a pretty silly take considering the ban has been in the works for over half a decade now, with various parts of the US government and military banning TT for years now.
- solfox 2y agoIt would be nice if such a ban meant that a small competitor could get a jumpstart. Instead I fear the result is that Meta just gets bigger.
- nextworddev 2y agoJust have Devin or some coding AI agents to clone TikTok /s
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ripped_britches 2y agoI hear this all the time without the /s As if merely writing the code is the only prerequisite for making a hundred billion dollar business
- vrmiguel 2y agoI'm very surprised no one took on this window of opportunity (as far as I can tell). Any new TikTok-like hip app that is not from any FAANG has a good chance of taking off
- HaZeust 2y agoI'd like to discuss the pop-up's content. If it comes out to be that one guy, President Trump, CAN pass an executive order that effectively ignores a law that Congress passed AND the Supreme court upheld unanimously, it's a very dangerous precedent.
- jonahhorowitz 2y agoHe can direct the justice department not to enforce a law.
- HaZeust 2y agoDo you think he should? Do you think it's a healthy exercise in the country's checks and balances for the president to create a precedent where he directs the justice department to not enforce a law when Congress has drafted it, and the Supreme Court has unanimously upheld it? Last time anything like this has happened, it created devastating national history.
- jonahhorowitz 2y agoI don't think the country fell apart when Obama directed the justice department not to enforce weed laws. [0] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Memorandum
- HaZeust 2y agoI don't think this compares, but I do see where you're coming from. Whereas the present SC has unanimously upheld this TikTok law, The Court has avoided taking a position on federal non-enforcement of marijuana laws in states where it is legalized
- Jcowell 2y agoIt wouldn’t be the first time an American President decided not to enforce a SC ruling.
- cute_boi 2y agoI hope trump will reverse this action. I don't want government to decide what I am allowed to watch.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> don't want government to decide what I am allowed to watch We’ve had almost a century of foreign-ownership limits for media properties [1]. (It’s recently been relaxed but not released [2].) [1] https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-policies-common-carrier-aeronautical-en-route-and-aeronautical https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-poli... [2] https://www.broadcastlawblog.com/2017/02/articles/fcc-approves-for-the-first-time-100-foreign-ownership-of-us-broadcast-stations/ https://www.broadcastlawblog.com/2017/02/articles/fcc-approv...
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoIt is a law passed by congress. The only way to reverse it is to (a) have a court invalidate the law (already tried) or (b) have congress reverse the law. Trump can say something about its enforcement, but he can't actually reverse the law (at least according to the constitution, which he also said he wanted to interpret differently).
- demizer 2y agoTrump will reverse it by letting one of his donors buy TikTok and restart it. It's better off dead.
- wilg 2y agoLuckily they don't, the first amendment is very strong, they just say the PRC cannot control social apps in the US.
- ungreased0675 2y agoAre you ok with the Chinese government deciding what you’re allowed to watch?
- enlightenedfool 2y ago
- gemerald 2y agoWhere will the zoomers go?
- paulcole 2y agoI’m 41 and watch 20-25 hours of TikTok a week. I love it. Glad it’ll be back early next week, most likely.
- almostgotcaught 2y agoLol I'm about your age and I'm sometimes embarrassed about the hour or two I end up watching across all my bathroom sessions but c'mon 25 hours. That's too much.
- paulcole 2y agoWho’s to say it’s too much? I enjoy it. I’m over 1/2-way thru my life. I think I know what I like doing with my time by this point.
- qingcharles 2y agoI'll watch 90 mins of TikTok and think I could have watched an entire movie; then I remember I actually enjoyed myself anyway and stomp down the guilty feeling.
- Xelynega 2y agoWhat makes you confident it will be back early next week?
- paulcole 2y agoLooks like it’s back already lol. The thing that made me confident was that the mentioned Trump by name (telling me they knew he was going to make a change).
- yakshaving_jgt 2y agoI wish for TikTok-style short form lowest common denominator videos to fall out of fashion. Trying to copy TikTok is probably the worst thing Instagram has done. Their “suggested reels” are a cancer.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoEven the copies are crazy addictive. Facebook got me in my feed, and then so did YouTube. You can spend hours just consuming things...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- idunnoman1222 2y ago[flagged]
- plantwallshoe 2y agoAre they licking Chinese boots or American boots?
- frem 2y agoThis is unfortunate for women in the US, many of whom were using TikTok to raise consciousness of 4B, a protest movement originating in South Korea that calls for women to fight widespread societal misogyny and boycott men. It went viral on TikTok in the US after Trump's win in November and has been steadily increasing in reach and impact since. Hopefully this movement will continue on other social media. Though unfortunately none are quite as light on censorship as TikTok is for feminist voices, often unfairly framing these as "hate".
- derektank 2y agoTikTok actively censored videos containing the word "rape", "assault", and "sex", preventing women on the app from honestly talking about their negative experiences with men. I do not think it's a great loss for Feminism to see the app delisted and it's users migrate elsewhere
- frem 2y agoThat isn't a problem in reality as everyone just uses euphemisms which everyone else understands but TikTok doesn't censor. It's been this way for years, we got used to it.
- 3vidence 2y agoThis is the same for YouTube and Instagram unless you don't want your content shown to anyone. This is just the state of social media...
- DarthMader 2y ago4B was pretty limited in South Korea according to Wikipedia and anecdotally the same appears to be true in US. Anecdotally I see it shared mostly by women who are dating or actively in relationships.
- xyst 2y ago[flagged]
- Sabinus 2y agoMy brother in Christ, the US has done more intense things than this in the past and been fine, and will do more intense things in the future, and (probably) be fine.
- tayo42 2y agoIsnt taking the app down today just for show? It seems like the ban wasnt going to be enforced? https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-ban-trump-executive-order-1e95d9836bf6f8c0c245ed1c3234d968 https://apnews.com/article/tiktok-ban-trump-executive-order-...
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoTikTok and/or Apple and/or Google probably took the app down themselves. They talk to their lawyers, and tell them "no, Trump/Biden said they weren't going to enforce the law" and their legal counsel goes "no, no, no, you can't go by that, obey the law or you are opening yourself up to huge liability" and that's it.
- theossuary 2y agoSpecifically the statue of limitations is 5 years. Even if Biden and Trump both decided not to enforce the law, the next president could still go after app stores for hosting it, and impose all fines.
- GoofballJones 2y agoI don't have the app, but from what I can tell, using a VPN doesn't help either. I guess when you downloaded it from the U.S. Android/Apple app stores, it flags you somehow, so a VPN can't help? Dunno, I'm wayyyy out of the loop on all of this.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoIf that's the case, you could download it from a non-US app store and it should just work...unless TikTok is doing some denial based on from IP address, then you need foreign TikTok + VPN (or at least a way to mask your IP address being American in origin). At least the USA doesn't have a great firewall (yet?), so they aren't going to block it that way (or maybe they can buy the tech from Huawei, which they adapted from Cisco in the first place).
- qingcharles 2y agoOn mobile the VPN doesn't help. Have to change app store. On desktop VPN works but you need to create a new account if yours was originally created on the USA servers.
- ahurmazda 2y agoMuch ado about nothing! Not available for download a day at max! (You can still use the app if it’s already installed) The ban will be repealed on Monday and it will be sold to US tech lords by month’s end. The damn hysteria is embarrassing
- FigurativeVoid 2y agoThat’s not true though. Tik Tok chose to block US users this evening even though that’s technically not what the bill asks for.
- ahurmazda 2y agoByteDance is flexing as well. It knows it’s not going anywhere.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoI'd have to guess this manufactured drama was agreed/requested by Trump, so that he can act the hero by making a "deal" to get it unblocked tomorrow or soon after. The real question here is "What's in it for Trump?". He doesn't do anything without expecting something in return. What is Trump personally getting out of (about to) letting TikTok continue?
- forgetfulness 2y agoThere's always the basic drives that his mental illness place in his actions. If nothing else, attention, validation and social status are plenty enough for someone of his condition, that of narcissism.
- AirMax98 2y agoIt's a shame that it's come to this. I feel that all arguments that TikTok is unhealthy or spyware and bad for our general public are valid, but the same arguments also apply to Instagram/Twitter/Whatever. Rather than have some sort of further regulation for what data any application can collect and present to Americans, we've just brought the hammer down on the millions of people that use this application for their livelihood. This serves only to enrich our American tech monopolies — companies which have proven to us that they have bad intentions towards our country's people. Truly bleak.
- swasheck 2y agoas a parent who has attempted to navigate the complexities of social media and mental health and social norms and conformity, social media absolutely has an effect on how the emerging generations interact with their surrounding environments, and in my experience, all been negative. I understand this is colloquial, but the cloak wheel evidence of all of my peers additionally supports this. i’m sad, not that this has been banned and gone dark, but at the emotional and social uproar that this seems to have created.
- swasheck 2y ago[flagged]
- maeil 2y agoTo an extent, yes, some of the arguments absolutely apply to other platforms as well. But others don't. You never saw such platforms directly impact elections as much, having Russian operations have as big as an impact as they have had on TikTok in e.g. Eastern Europe. Of course they tried running campaigns in the past on Facebook as well, but not with as high of an impact, and after they got caught the platforms have put in a reasonable amount of effort to crack down on them. TikTok knowingly turns a blind eye, and unlike with the US platforms, Russia can be much more blatant. Think it would be pretty reasonable for other countries to ban such platforms too though, as China has understandably already been doing for over a decade. Facebook of course played a big role in genocide in Myanmar, so I wouldn't dare say the US platforms are necessarily better.
- throwbully 2y agoChina and USA are both same in a way so I dnt give a f..k which side wins. World will be a little better place with one less bully
- HaZeust 2y agoSeeing someone create a whole new account just to say this take amuses me, as if it was a knee-jerk reaction but with calculated thought on the optics of saying it.
- 98237482374 2y agoOutside the US all the American account contents are still up and visible. How does TikTok designate where an account is from? Can Americans not sign in and delete their content? Do VPNs work if American-created accounts log in? Interesting rollout here I wonder if this will change in the coming days.
- spinach 2y agoApp stores are region/country specific and the accounts are linked to that.
- SXX 2y agoOn Android you can have 5 of accounts in Google Play all from different regions to install region-locked apps. E.g bank apps.
- qingcharles 2y agoI can access the site on desktop with a VPN through Canada, but it won't let me log in to any account that was created on the USA-hosted servers. I created a new Canadian account and now I see a lot of Canadian memes that I don't get lol On mobile the VPN doesn't work as it checks your app store country. I saw a few USA refugees on Canada TikTok saying they changed their Apple App Store country and it works just fine now. I think I'll sacrifice an Android device and do it that way.
- pdx6 2y agoThe first amendment only applies to the oligarchs and their friends in the 3 branches of the United States. TikTok is only the first to be blocked, there will be more, and they will be DC political fodder too. We need a distributed social platform. Distributed currency system. Distributed personal information privacy. Distributed AI. Where’s the tech YC?
- pixl97 2y ago>Where’s the tech YC? Following the money. TYC did things like bitcoin. TYC gives zero shits about information privacy and distributed AI because they can't make more money than god. TYC isn't going to save you here. Nor are the masses going to adopt it.
- 999900000999 2y agoThe blue sky app is open source, it shouldn't be too hard to fork it and add a short video tab. I want open source everything. Open Source social media. If you and 5000 like minded people don't like Blue sky you can effectively spin up your own server and exclude others. Open Source games. I want a billionaire to fund an open source fornite with the same idea. Which reminds me, Tencent owns major stakes in (100%) Riot and Epic Games ( 40%). Are they next ?
- Karrot_Kream 2y agoThe coverage of TikTok's closure on this site is just sort of tabloid at this point. The culture of HN ceteris paribus hates social media significantly more than the average person. That and its western bias makes questions about the TikTok ban's effects on this site really silly. The folks here are probably some of the most opinionated, least impartial voices to discuss this issue with. A discussion about the ban's knock-on effects among creators, users, and larger GenZ culture around it isn't going to happen because this site doesn't really have much of those populations on it. As far as what's next, it's up to the Biden and Trump admins to see what happens next. If deadlines are extended, what does a good divestiture settlement mean for TikTok? Can the executive department get away with not enforcing this law? And of course, the question that really lies ahead of us: what does this mean for other social media based outside of the US like Telegram, Line, and KakaoTalk?
- fqye 2y agoSome opinions here are super ignorant. Yes Tiktok has lots of silly videos but it also is a way for many talented people to reach their audience. Many small business owners and indie artists depend on it to make a living.
- danielbln 2y agoWouldn't those creators just shift to Shorts and Reels?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- swasheck 2y agoi’m not normally a conspiracy theorist but i had in mind what trump announced earlier today. he’s going to parlay this into a way to being the millennial/gen z savior and it will work with great success. my gen z kids are already compromising their progressive values and throwing themselves at the feet of their lord and savior donald trump.
- afavour 2y agoTikTok is doing the same, their goodbye message literally name checks Trump as a potential saviour. A wise attempt at flattering his ego.
- enlightenedfool 2y agoNot a bad thing to learn some conservative/libertarian values too. Going by the spying argument, every US social media company should be banned elsewhere because all data is siphoned by US gov.
- pixl97 2y ago>Going by the spying argument, every US social media company should be banned elsewhere because all data is siphoned by US gov. Yes. All big social media should be banned for just this reason, we already had Cambridge Analytica to know this. Banning TT for spying is just a good first step. With this said, the US.g has had the power to ban business with entities for a long ass time and those laws are pretty well established, especially in the case with foreign entities.
- wumeow 2y agoThis shutdown is performative, by the way. The law prohibits the distribution, maintenance, or updating of the application. There's no reason to disable the app for users who already have it installed except to generate outrage. No one reads the actual law, everyone is taking the bait. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521
- andrewinardeer 2y agoI'm not a lawyer but if "maintenance" is interpreted broadly, it might include any operation or service that keeps the app running, which could mean they cannot serve content even if they never updated the app again. Serving content could be seen as an ongoing maintenance activity. The bill also prohibits the provision of "internet hosting services" for the app. Serving content over the internet could be considered providing hosting services, which would be prohibited unless there's a divestiture. Just putting it out there.
- wumeow 2y agoMaybe, but it’s back now. It was performative.
- demizer 2y agoThere is no system of digital content distribution that can withstand the will of Government. The only thing that can be done is for the citizens of that government to wake up and take the power away from those that are wielding it to further enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else. I am not a user of TikTok but this is not a good development for our "perfect union", nor the freedom of the internet in the United States of America.
- ungreased0675 2y agoI thought you were talking about China until the last sentence.
- beeflet 2y agoexcept for like i2psnark or something
- subzero06 2y agothey are really blocking even with VPN, i was just testing stuff out. 1 - if you created an account in US and trying to login with that account, then it wont work. 2 - tried logging in to Canada VPN, and create a "Canadian" account so i can login to tiktok, no joy, it somehow throws errors on debugger and does not proceed on sign up button. 3 - Booted up an AWS ec2 free windows tier machine on Canada region, created and logged in with a new account no issues. 4 - if you try to use that account on your machine with canada vpn, you will get suspicious activity alert then it wont let you login even with canada VPN, so they must tracking device location differently. 5 - So, the only way to access it without any issues is by using some virtual machine located in another region - no VPN, maybe a dedicated region IP might work.
- gniv 2y agoI'm in France and it still doesn't work. They might have just turned it off completely. Edit: Nevermind, it works from an incognito window. So it's just my account they banned.
- vitorgrs 2y agoI guess tiktok is similar to Meta. It's basically impossible to create Instagram, and I guess Facebook accounts using VPN.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- userbinator 2y agoThe message also suggests this may only be a temporary disappearance. TikTok credits President-elect Donald Trump for indicating “he will work with us on a solution to reinstate TikTok once he takes office,” with users urged to “stay tuned!” This is the most unusual endorsement I've seen, admittedly of a most unusual President.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mediumsmart 2y agoAlways nice to see the American population kept safe from propaganda, affordable rents, a working healthcare system and fresh food for 90 cents.
- Sammi 2y agoYou missed what this is actually about. This is about protecting the US from a foreign adversary. It's geo politics. China does the same with banning Facebook.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mediumsmart 2y agoI think you did - define foreign adversary and check if you are typing on something that aids and abets this enemy.
- Sammi 2y agoDeflecting much :) What does that have to do with whether or not Tiktok is used a tool of war by a foreign adversary to the US? The no 1 reason the US is banning Tiktok because they are protecting against the war on the minds of their population.
- mediumsmart 2y agolets win that war by introducing affordable rents, a working healthcare system and fresh food for 90 cents. :) leaving the last word for you of course
- popcalc 2y agoLoL you have to bribe doctors to take care of you in not only China but also multiple EU countries: Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania.
- 2y ago
- eBombzor 2y agoHallelujah but the damage to society has already been done. Instagram next maybe?
- geor9e 2y agoApple and Google created individual APIs to serve up phone number, contacts, exact location, device model, time zone, clipboard data, photos, files, and cookies to 10 million different random app developers to harvest to their heart's delight. US government passes law against just one of them for using said APIs. Are they going to fix the root of the issue, or just play whack-a-mole forever?
- arunc 2y agoYou know the answer.
- etchalon 2y agoCongress should ban operating systems is a hell of a take.
- ripped_britches 2y agoFavorite comment today, thank you sir/maam
- ilkke 2y agoIf you're going to be ridiculous why stop there? Why not say the OP is implying all electronics should be banned? Or are you arguing that no operating system can exist without tracking and sharing all of this data?
- geor9e 2y agoJust seeing how far we can stretch these strawmen, if you found out httb:/funvideo.ru got root access to your OS, not by any exploits, but by the intentional design of the OS, it's a hell of a take to be mad at funvideo.ru
- Vegenoid 2y agoNot only have they created those APIs, they've actually created hardware devices to collect and store such valuable personal data. Banning certain APIs is just another layer of whack-a-mole - we need them to pull the weed out by its roots!
- enlightenedfool 2y agoDid they ever show the proof of spying to the American public?
- suraci 2y agoI'm the one who is spying to thr American public And I have just observed that you have been downvoted
- EdwardDiego 2y agoYour social credit score just got upgrade! You may now use high speed trains!
- andrewinardeer 2y agoWould it be within the realm of possibility that US intelligence agencies have this proof and have not released it publicly? Here in Victoria, Australia the state government has deplatformed itself from TT and banned the app from government phones due to security concerns. Clearly, the state government has taken instruction from the federal government who has received advice from somewhere (5 eyes / intelligence agencies) about the risks.
- wildrhythms 2y ago>Would it be within the realm of possibility that US intelligence agencies have this proof and have not released it publicly? I wonder where we've heard this before?
- MangoCoffee 2y agoIt’s funny watching this TikTok ban unfold. Trump went hell on Earth against TikTok before he lost to Biden. Biden got what he wanted done, but now Trump is back and seems to have a special "warm" spot for TikTok. Every politician flip-flops, but Trump is something else.
- wilg 2y agoPeople want politicians to say they will do something something, but have nothing ever change. And then they punish politicians who change anything at all.
- aorloff 2y agoI have a teenager who regularly requests his TikTok screen time allowance to be reduced. He wants to not know the passcode even though he is well old enough to know it if he wants. What this temporary outage might do is have the opposite effect TikTok expects - to show people they need a break from such an addictive app. Stranger things have happened on the internet. The longer before Trump "cuts a deal" the more I expect people to press the question - why allow China access to this market if China is shut to our social media apps ?
- suraci 2y agoWhat are we? a Communism 3rd world country?
- Sabinus 2y agoOpen to open countries. Closed to closed ones. Reciprocity is not hypocrisy.
- russli1993 2y ago[flagged]
- zaseevazarina 2y ago[dead]
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- captainepoch 2y agoCool. Now, in Europe, please.
- replwoacause 2y agoNow do Facebook
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
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- known 2y ago[dead]
- sharkski 2y agoHas anyone seen any evidence of ISPs/internet providers taking action to block TikTok?
- rugpulltikytoky 2y agoI think most folks are upset because the US always projects this open image about itself around the world and most importantly to it's citizens. However there are cases where it's actions go against this prevailing narrative and the people are starting to ask questions.
- Aloisius 2y agoI think most people are upset because they're having withdrawal.
- dang 2y agoRelated ongoing thread: About availability of TikTok and ByteDance Ltd. apps in the United States - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42754130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42754130 - Jan 2025 (80 comments)
- medhir 2y agowas not really on TikTok but a bleak day for anyone that believes in the free speech ideals the US was founded on
- plantwallshoe 2y agoAww yes I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote about the need to form a more perfect union that allows hostile foreign governments to run a direct unfettered pipeline into the minds of its youth with zero oversight.
- spencerflem 2y agoLuckily we get the unfettered propaganda pipeline of hostile american billionaires instead.
- SXX 2y agoAmerican billionares are surely much worse than totalitarian state running internment camps.
- spencerflem 2y agoAmerican billionaires have a much more direct impact on my life than totalitarian states halfway across the globe. Also, not to defend the CCP, but America has more prisoners than any other country, China included, and dramatically more per capita.
- tempaccount420 2y agoAmerica is also an incredibly diverse and rich country.
- nozzlegear 2y agoThere's a huge difference between internment camps designed to oppress and reeducate Uighur Muslims, and regular prisons. These are not the same thing at all.
- Night_Thastus 2y agoGood riddance. It was nothing but brainrot, spyware and propoganda. Though it's hardly unique in that regard. That's modern social media now.
- epigramx 2y agoUS is the same country that allows a practical monopoly of NVIDIA on GPUs and Intel on CPU (or at least an oligopoly), and then pretend "foreigners are out to get us". It gets one to know one.
- dmix 2y agoDominant market leaders aren't inherently bad for the world. That's why anti-trust laws are narrow. Only when they are so ingrained and conspire to be anti-competitive (usually via lobbying gov policy to create barriers to entry) that they harm the ability for competition to replace them. NVIDIA constantly and perpetually have companies at their throats looking to take their market, which means they better deliver to customers.
- Sammi 2y agoThis is a US policy for US citizens. Of course they are protecting their own. China does the same. No Facebook or Google allowed in China.
- bamboozled 2y agoOn the other hand, I find this a bit concerning too? The USA is starting to look a bit more like China. There is now only “one world view” for us. Given the friend group between the people who run X and Meta and it might leave us in a precarious situation? Banning TikTok only treats the symptom , the real disease is that people are way to susceptible to propaganda and misinformation.
- Sammi 2y agoDid you miss the part where China is a foreign adversary? They don't play nice. If you try to play nice with someone who wants to kill you then you get killed.
- t-3 2y agoWe have nukes. If they try to kill us, everyone dies. "Foreign adversary" just means they're big enough to get a seat at the table in a multipolar world.
- photochemsyn 2y agoHN is a tightly controlled media platform and I don't expect any honest discussion of this issue here.
- EdwardDiego 2y agoWow, jump straight to the bad faith assumptions huh?
- rented_mule 2y agoWhat's to stop TikTok from serving their website from non-US servers to all comers? Using it in a browser is not as smooth as an app, but there must be apps out there that are nothing but a WebView to URLs on a single domain (like you can do in Mac Safari with File... Add to Dock...). Submitting / watching videos wouldn't be that different. It seems to me the only recourse the US would have is building The Great Firewall of America.
- imnotjames 2y agoAs far as I understand it, they wouldn't be able to advertise with US companies in the US so it's a lot of cost for no benefit. Unless they're hosting all that bandwidth for an altruistic reason..
- raincole 2y ago> it's a lot of cost for no benefit The argument for TikTok ban is that it's a Chinese propaganda machine. I don't know whether it is true. But assuming it is, propaganda usually costs money.
- aucisson_masque 2y agoYou can't track user as well in browser, tiktok has no interest at all doing that. They make money by spying on their user, making profile and selling ads.
- WA 2y agoLaws don't care about technical aspects. ByteDance must comply with the law, meaning, they need to stop offering the service to US citizens, no matter where the servers are hosted, for example, by geofencing their product. If they don't comply, they risk fines. They can only ignore this if they don't care about doing business with the US ever again and their owners never want to set foot in the country again.
- crazylogger 2y agoThe funny thing here is that complying means they never do business in the US anyway. So potentially it is beneficial for Bytedance to still serve US viewers but keep no physical presence in the US, and deal only with non-American advertisers (e.g. US viewer see ads from SHEIN, Aliexpress, Ctrip, etc.) and still profit from this operation. Those companies will pay Bytedance in China, outside US control. This is pretty much how US internet services operate in the rest of the world: YouTube have no physical presence in, say, Nigeria, but Nigerians watch YouTube just fine. That’s what the internet was all about. We’re connected by default, unless a government actively implements a firewall to stop it.
- gdubs 2y agoI think a lot of people on here never spent much time on TikTok and it shows. It wasn't just for young people and it wasn't all brain rot. There were vibrant communities, subcultures. Real issues were aired there. Real people connected. From the early days of Covid it provided a window into a broader world.
- gundmc 2y agoCan you give some examples? I a skeptical that the format, designed for maximum retention and engagement, can be a positive.
- gdubs 2y agoI mean, John Saves Energy is one that comes to mind. He shared tons of info about his solar power rig, interesting data, vibrant conversations. Music accounts like Rare The Nanas who put me to sleep many nights with amazing VHS finds of obscure 90s music performances. Tons of music theorists, weird quirky bands and musicians who built huge followings there, film makers, game devs, and on and on and on.
- fastball 2y agoWhat prevents JohnSavesEnergy from posting content on any other platform?
- gdubs 2y agoThe question is: what prevents creators like JohnSavesEnergy from emerging on other platforms.
- o_m 2y agoMy guess is that TikTok paid for their format more than anyone else. By posting on YouTube it might cannibalize the earnings. Now that it is banned it might as well be on YouTube or some other platform.
- ginkgotree 2y agoGood.
- daemoens 2y agoThe app was shutdown a couple of hours ago in the US and this was the message all TikTok users saw when they opened the app.[1] The same guy who pushed for a ban massively last year, is going to save the app despite the security concerns he and most of our government said they had. If only we knew what happened in that classified briefing that made them vote together across party lines. [1] https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxbusiness.com/foxbusiness.com/content/uploads/2025/01/720/405/4edf26d5-tiktok.jpg?ve=1&tl=1 https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxbusiness.com/foxbusiness.c...
- elfbargpt 2y agoI have a feeling the ban is likely the result of "special interest" groups as opposed to a "classified briefing"
- lordofgibbons 2y agoIt's obvious the app is being banned because for once we had unbiased news about Israel/Palestine and the ongoing genocide. A media outlet not easy to censor is unacceptable to the Israeli lobby, and therefore unacceptable to our politicians.
- a_wild_dandan 2y agoPeople will downvote you for revealing this, but it's the truth. I saw it on TikTok, after all.
- seventhtiger 2y agoLeading politicians said it explicitly. It's been discussed in the news since the conflict started.
- 9dev 2y agoIt’s not. The effort started earlier. It’s just a convenient narrative.
- gostsamo 2y agoAs far as Musk boldly stated his intention to interfere in european elections, can we ban Twitter/X on Europe as well? Asking for a friend.
- russli1993 2y agoYes, you can also force sale or ban. And you should do that, because the US has shown it is legal and moral.
- _Algernon_ 2y agoThis just means that China will use bots on american social media for influence. Honsestly, considering Trump got elected, that is enough. Dont think this will affect foreign influence by china much.
- sterlind 2y agocontrolling the algorithm is a lot more subtle than using bots. it's pretty easy to notice bots and shills. it's harder to notice when it's all humans with sincere beliefs, just that some beliefs are overrepresented.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago>it's pretty easy to notice bots and shills You only notice the bots that you notice. How do you know how many bots you encounter where you dont realize it is a bot? Knowing this number is necessary to make the claim that claim, but it is fundamentally unknowable.
- jchook 2y agoUnreal. Land of Freedom bans Social Media app that runs on US servers, on its own terms, with censorship teams staffed by dozens of ex-US State officials[1]. Amazing that Congress will see bipartisan action on this issue before any of the other much more important issues. It absolutely destroys criticisms of China banning Facebook, etc. 1. https://www.mintpressnews.com/tiktok-chinese-trojan-horse-run-by-state-department-officials/284353/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/tiktok-chinese-trojan-horse-ru...
- sidcool 2y agoWasn't the concern of data being siphoned off to China? Even India has banned it. Where does freedom come into picture here?
- jchook 2y agoWas it? What was the real concern? And can you prove it?
- Technetium 2y agoYes, it has been a security threat for years. It's a shame it took this long. In case you missed some of the myriad stories, here's just a few. Sure seems like the onus is on TikTok to prove they aren't being evil at this point, because all the evidence so far isn't implying anything good. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29592103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29592103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34109771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34109771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31920756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31920756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28199588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28199588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33280176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33280176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21076459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21076459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33302591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33302591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34098132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34098132
- aucisson_masque 2y agoAnother bite the dust. Who's next ?
- LinuxBender 2y agoWho's next ? All Chinese owned social media including the ones people were jumping to unless the US changed the wording in the ban. I guess we would have to wait and see what happens.
- chinathrow 2y ago> “I think that would be, certainly, an option that we look at. The 90-day extension is something that will be most likely done, because it’s appropriate. You know, it’s appropriate. We have to look at it carefully. It’s a very big situation,” Trump told the outlet. I would have thought that indeed, they have looked at it already carefully.
- sidcool 2y agoIf it's for the mental health of the US citizens then banning TikTok alone is not going to address it. But may be the first step.
- laidoffamazon 2y agoI generally care about good and bad arguments even if I agree or disagree with the direction of the argument itself. But in terms of TikTok, I don't care. Burn it down. If Trump uses his first 100 days to pressure his 3 vote majority in the House to vote to overturn something they passed overwhelmingly it's a pretty startling indication of his priorities and loyalties in his second term. His crypto-scam this weekend is only the prologue.
- sethammons 2y agoSheep: the wolves voted unanimously Why did they vote unanimously? Why was it bundled into a rushed relief bill?
- yashg 2y agoTikTok was banned in India years ago. There was some noise initially but eventually everyone moved to Instagram Reels/YT Shorts. A few homegrown apps tried to capture the space but couldn't compete against Meta and Alphabet's entrenched network effect and superior platforms. TikTok wasn't as big in India back then as it is in the US right now but it was gaining traction and then lost it all. The same alternatives already exist in the US as well, people will move on in no time.
- nomilk 2y agoTo those with knowledge in security, what exactly were the concerns? Here are the four I can think of. - Users tend to use the same passwords across apps. It would be trivial for TikTok to provide an email + password combo to CCP. - Until 2020, the tiktok iOS app was accessing the system clipboard at all times that TikTok was running (even in the background) https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/26/21304228/tiktok-security-ios-clipboard-access-ios14-beta-feature https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/26/21304228/tiktok-security-... - A sort of vague concern that because CCP can easily compel Chinese companies, it could easily compel TikTok to show / not-show various content to American users. (this could stir political tensions, misinformation etc). - TikTok (and by extension CPP) could access any content/messages that the app has access to. E.g. Phone contacts (if permission given), private messages sent on TikTok app (possibly even if just typed but not sent). What else?
- dehrmann 2y agoThere's the "Grindr threat"[1] There are metadata threats around who's connected to whom, where users are, where they go, etc. There can be leaked data in videos posted by military personnel 1: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chinese-owner-us-cfius-security-concerns-kunlun-lgbtq https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chine...
- nomilk 2y ago> the "Grindr threat" Hadn't heard of this. The linked article explains: > At the time of Reuters’ March 2019 report, it was unclear what CFIUS’s specific concerns were, but the FT says the committee worried the Chinese government could use personal data from the app to blackmail US citizens — which could include US government officials.
- geocar 2y agoRight. Grindr puts IP location and and userid information in the ad exchanges so anyone programmatically buying knows which politician/public person is gay and where they are. We also know who is fat because myfitnesspal does the same thing. We also know who is pregnant, who has recently been raped, who feels vulnerable. And so on. You see an ad? We know a thing. We know if you like boobs even if you don’t. Without trying to speak to what American governments and corporations have done with that knowledge, the “security” point is that the Chinese government has this knowledge as well, and the fear they can do something with it. That being said, what Cambridge Analytica did (a British company) with this kind of knowledge is well-documented, so I can agree the fear is warranted by both those who seek to monopolise those powers, and those who seek to escape them.
- firefoxd 2y agoThis morning I felt the urge to download TikTok for the first time. I did, but I didn't bother creating an account. There is a passage in the book Life of Pi, where Pi's family is gathered and ready to leave India for Canada. And his mother does something out of the ordinary: > The day before our departure she pointed at a cigarette wallah and earnestly asked, "Should we get a pack or two?" > Father replied, "They have tobacco in Canada. And why do you want to buy cigarettes? We don't smoke." > Yes, they have tobacco in Canada-but do they have Gold Flake cigarettes? Do they have Arun ice cream? Are the bicycles Heroes? Are the televisions Onidas? Are the cars Ambassadors? Are the bookshops Higginbothams'? Such, I suspect, were the questions that swirled in Mother's mind as she contemplated buying cigarettes. Do I use TikTok? No, I've always advocated against it. Will I use it if it is reinstated? Probably not. But I downloaded it anyway the same way Mrs Gita Patel wanted to buy cigarettes. It wasn’t about need or use. It was about the loss. I would stand behind a tiktok ban if it was for the right reasons. But this ban is only because it failed to conform to manufactured consent.
- reedf1 2y agoMake no mistake - it conforms to manufactured consent.
- imgabe 2y agoThe only difference is the manufacturer. But this is an important difference.
- whoitwas 2y agoI would like to understand your position. China doesn't allow US apps. If Chinese apps are allowed, then China has a big advantage over USA. Do you understand what kind of information can be derived from 150 million smart phones?
- necovek 2y agoOne is a "bastion of democracy", and another is the "center of human rights violation". Would you not expect the rules to be different? If it's only about reciprocity and global hegemony, well then...
- whatever1 2y agoInstantly +20% GDP across the country
- prmoustache 2y agoIf the problem is China, why wouldn't they ban all apps from China? And what exactly is preventing China to launch a new app withjin hours (that is the point of cloud infras right?) under a new company using tiktok source code and allow easy importation of dumps from tiktok to facilitate their migration and get a head start?
- csin 2y agoThey are "trying" to go for all apps from China. Someone above mentioned Grindr was also targeted. As for the one's they've missed, typical government incompetence. They have trouble differentiating what is, and is not a "Chinese app". "And what exactly is preventing China to launch a new app within hours..." No users. TikTok's massive userbase wasn't created in 7 days.
- jandrewrogers 2y agoA point I think most people don’t understand is that the government interest in TikTok has little to do with exploiting user data per se, a lot of other companies do that. The issue is that TikTok is somewhat unique in being aggressively weaponized in currently very active “grey zone” conflicts. This has been an open secret in national security circles but the average person on the street has no idea what a grey zone conflict is, what it looks like, or why it matters. Geopolitic strategies are increasingly executed as grey zone warfare, and some hybrid warfare, because the costs and risks of traditional overt warfare have become unacceptably high.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago>but the average person on the street has no idea what a grey zone conflict is, what it looks like, or why it matters. Education?
- pandemic_region 2y agoCollege degree here, I have no idea what it actually means.
- IAmNotACellist 2y ago"Grey zone conflict" sounds a lot like our powers are upset they don't have the level of control over information that the adversary has. They want to be the ones to censor, suppress, and promote, rather than another country. The goal isn't more open access to information.
- alwa 2y ago“More open access to information” is not the adversary’s goal, either. Is that goal served by preserving the adversary’s control over the information environment?
- deepsun 2y agoWhether they want or not, they cannot. The democratic system, even deficient as one in US, still does its job and works against blatant information suppression.
- Simon_O_Rourke 2y agoI can't see this for anything other than massive act of petulance. Sure TikTok are probably spying and influencing Americans, but I'm darned sure Meta, Google etc. are doing the same for similar non altruistic purposes.
- picafrost 2y agoIt’s always uncomfortable when realpolitik clashes with the values we aspire to have. What is freedom, anyway? Surely it can’t include allowing a foreign adversary access to a knob to twist on an important demographic of society. A foreign adversary who is actively compromising the network infrastructure of that society [1] but definitely wouldn’t touch infrastructure around an app owned by a Chinese company. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. One person's portal to a better world is a state's vehicle to shaping it in the state's interests. [1] https://apnews.com/article/united-states-china-hacking-espionage-c5351ef7c2207785b76c8c62cde6c513 https://apnews.com/article/united-states-china-hacking-espio...
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y ago> What is freedom, anyway? It's a question of freedom for whom and freedom from what.
- MichaelMoser123 2y agothat's a slippery slope. The Russian government is also justifying all of its censorship with foreign interference (this line of argument works with the Russian public, just to note), take care!
- nvarsj 2y agoIndeed. It's the road to open government censorship. There is no grey area when it comes to freedom of speech.
- picafrost 2y agoI'm less certain that it's a slippery slope than it is a fine line. The government does not appear to have a problem with the speech occurring on TikTok. It is not trying to apply censorship or forcing the app to close down. It tried to force it to be sold away from its Chinese ownership. It tried to mitigate the possibility that a foreign adversary can use the app as a tool for its own interests. Had TikTok divested itself instead of shutting itself down the dancing would have continued on.
- nektro 2y agothis will have immediate and devastating effects on the economy and culture and the usa especially the incoming administration is not prepared to handle
- OhioMan2943 2y agoI wonder if part of the new move to ban social media sites is because it's more effective because there's less of an open web and presumably government agencies have gotten the hang of hindering emerging sites and social media they don't like. Ie through state sanctioned ddos and bot swarms
- jpc0 2y agoMy opinion. Assuming just because you have the ability to freely listen to everyone else drivel does not mean you made that decision freely. I am actively anti-social media myself, it's a hard stance I have and I have had to effectively "die on that hill". The amount of time our social media team has had serious issues with me refusing to comply with their requests to be involved with their current tiktok trend, arguing about "but you need to be relevant to the modern generation" when my argument is exactly the thing Tiktok was banned for, I want to be in control of who has my data. That is bad enough already but to freely just give my likeness to a chinese owned company to sell adverts however they like? It's got nothing to do with "relevance" its a moral standing. And no I don't think tiktok is the only guilty platform but it's a step in the right direction concidering how absolutely mindless and time consuming the content is. And no matter how strongly you believe you have free will and freedom of thought, you are a reflection of the people you surround yourself with and I would make the argument the media you consume. And tiktok specifically is significantly more addictive than other media, sure the same argument can be made for youtube shorts and IG reels and whatever else which is the current short form content, and the biggest issue there is: there's no way to justify your stance, to bring evidence to back your case. All that there is is the ability to state your point and the majority of users will follow if you state it compellingly enough. It's mass propaganda taken to the extreme. I strongly believe YouTube shorts etc should follow the same fate as tiktok has. It should be regulated as strongly as Narcotics because it is equally as addictive and imho has a similar effect on society. Sorry for the rant but as I said, I have a moral stance on this topic and for some reason society in general decided it needs to be faught with the zeal of the crusades. Why is all of our media bombarded with the ban when it has been signed into law and backed by the relevant countries highest powers. If it was a unanimous vote in government and held up by the supreme court why is media against it? They are scared the next step is them. This isn't the media holding government accountable, this is media swaying the general public's opinion. This[1] comment on HN just proves that. They had no interest in tiktok, if media let it just go quietly into the night they would still have no interest but now that the fact that its disappearance has been shouted from every rooftop to every single human being the addiction crysis has spread to them. "Fear of missing out" strikes again. Media is designed to control and the first punch thrown against it is being countered, who will win in the end? 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42754640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42754640
- ripped_britches 2y agoRegardless of what you think about TikTok or Trump, we can probably all acknowledge this is a “slow ball” pitch that he can hit out of the park politically in a number of ways. People in this thread have mentioned the flip flopping but I don’t think mid term voters care about that. Nor do the Chinese as this brings a bargaining chip to the table.
- gverrilla 2y agoGood I hope this opens the way for the ban of american apps all over the world.
- russli1993 2y agoSale or ban of all US companies in every country. Imagine u could own the branding, technology, IP, revenue and profits of US companies. Country can use that to massive benefit their citizens, end poverty, hunger, bring free healthcare and education, balance currency and trade, increase tax revenues. All US companies can be Indian, Germany, France, UK, Brazil, all nations in Africa, Middle east companies.
- whatnotests2 2y agoWhen the CCP asked Google to censor search results, that was a bad thing. When the US government asks China to censor TikTok, that's a good thing. Make it make sense.
- TheFreim 2y agoFirst, the United States government isn't asking China to censor TikTok. Second, the two proposed situations are entirely different. The former is censoring particular results, the latter is a content-neutral ban with the ability for ByteDance to continue operating with no change to content. Third, perhaps this is controversial, but many people don't want a foreign adversary to have the ability to manipulate public perception. If you are the United States, allowing an enemy to have the ability to manipulate massive amounts of your population is extremely dangerous. I don't even know that I support the ban, but I certainly know that most of these sorts of comparisons simply don't make sense and are either missing or ignoring vital pieces of the puzzle.
- russli1993 2y agoCompletely different, it is not a content ban but a sanction against entire company Bytedance. Capcut was also removed, how is the video editing app influence public perception and steal US data? China gave foreign internet applications a list of rules to comply. And these are doable rules, u may not want to do them, but they are doable. That is why Bing, iCloud, AWS, Microsoft office, Azure, Tesla's cars, some of hosts critical and sensitive Chinese data are operating fine in China, even used by governments and state-owned companies. And Google and Meta are currently earning 10s of billions of dollars from Chinese advertisers. And google and Meta can offer any other services to China that is not regulated by online community services. Chinese citizens can visit Google and Meta apps using VPN, Google and Meta can transact with Chinese companies. Chinese rules just target online community-based services with a list of doable rules. Tiktok's original wish is to replicate China's rules for foreign online services in China in the US. So have US citizens do the data and code, implement whatever censorship regime US government wants, store US data on US servers. Allow US government official inside the company to review and oversee code, algorithm and data practices. Allow US government kill switch to turn off the app if they see anything. This is reciprocity of rules. But US is not giving any technical, doable options for you to adhere to. It is giving two options: either we kill you, or we give you a knife so you can kill yourself. China gives foreign companies room to live, so your workers have jobs and income, your inventor keep their inventions and private assets. US gives the foreign company two options: either we kill you, or we give you a knife so you can kill yourself. Your workers are out of jobs, what was a comfortable livelihood gone, your inventor's invention is destroyed, you will not get what your invention is worth, your private assets are gone. Or we can take your invention away from you and you lose all control of your baby in the future. If you don't see the difference, I have no word for you. China doesn't kill your companies. Take away the invention from the inventor, take away assets, IP, technology, branding from the inventor, forcing the inventor the giveaway the baby they invented and worked so hard on. China just don't want you say certain things within its borders, but everyone can live, have a job, get paid, bring food to the table. US just want to end your company, make everyone jobless, and you can't say what you want to say anyway because everything is gone.
- gonzo41 2y agoThis is a massive self own by the US estalishment. They are just damaging their own trust but not releasing the full and classified reasoning behind this.
- t-3 2y agoGiven all the very partisan flip-flopping on TikTok, I'm guessing there's not much to the "full and classified reasoning" and the real reason is more like "damn kids don't read my twitface posts, instead they call me names on a Chinese app, China CHina CHIHIANANANADASARtGHHGLE" and "My opponent has a lot of traction on TikTok, let's shut it down".
- gonzo41 2y agoOne way to think about social media is like a weapon. For the history of social media the US consumer was using a weapon that the US government had a way of exercising control over because Facebook, IG etc all existed as product of America. Tiktok was an outside challenger and threatened American power. Hence they took action to see it destroyed.
- openplatypus 2y agoNow let's do the same with X (South African foreign adversary) and Meta (Aliens from planet Gooblidook). Yes it is a joke. But whether it is outsized influence of foreign power or uber rich nutter, what's the difference...
- rdtsc 2y ago> Trump asked the Supreme Court to delay the ban I already foresee a Mueller investigation part #2 “Trump is a Chinese puppet” stories.
- ChicagoDave 2y agoI'll bet none of the people responding here actually read the Supreme Court decision. This isn't about data that people agreed to allow ByteDance to scrape. It's about ByteDance going beyond that and scraping contact information of NON-TikTok users, which could be used for blackmail or in other illegal and adversarial ways. Everyone knows U.S. companies gather user data. Oracle had been doing it for decades. This is not the issue and not at all why TikTok has been banned. The difference is that ByteDance was blatantly going after data that was legally not within their rights to grab; NON-TikTok user data on TikTok user's devices. In addition, there are hints in the decision that the FBI provided evidence that China was using this information for adversarial purposes. The decision very clearly walks through the First Amendment issues in relation to foreign adversaries and explicitly states that this is a singular decision. It would have been VERY EASY for ByteDance to stop scraping data or to find a U.S. partner to host the data of U.S. Citizens. I've worked at global consulting firms and Germany requires this. All German citizen data must be hosted in their country. This isn't anything new. Companies make these kinds of compromises all the time and have for decades. Some companies explicitly state their data has to be on-prem or not in AWS. As an enterprise architect, I make these kinds of design decisions all the time. (Scenario: If customer is located in XYZ country, where do we store their data?) ByteDance simply refused because even though they claim they are not handing data over to the Chinese Intelligence Service, they ACT LIKE THEY ARE. None of this will matter in a few months. There are active projects to build Instagram and TikTok clones on the atProto network (Bluesky) which will serve the same content without advertising and without an algorithm. There will be Feeds for cat videos, pirate dress up videos, and APT dance videos and I'm 100% sure all the users that join that service will completely forget about TikTok. And the moderation will be given to the users so they can decide what to see.
- tomjen3 2y agoThe supreme court also said you don't have a right to control your own body a few years ago. They have been political (and thus unreliable) for years.
- refurb 2y agoNo it didn't. It said the conjured-up-out-of-nothing right in Roe v. Wade was not a valid argument that the federal government (through the Constitution) explicitly protects abortion. Even legal scholars on the left admitted before the decision Roe v. Wade was a decision on very shaky ground and liable to be overturned. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/06/john-hart-ely-dobbs-roe-legacy.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/06/john-hart-ely-do... So it was overturned, and the decision was the state's, not the federal government under current laws. Nothing stops Congress from passing a national law on abortion. If they do, then the Supreme Court will recognize it.
- FilipeMaia 2y agoThe Communications Act of 1934 limits foreign ownership of many communication technologies such as TV. TikTok has easily more influence than most TV channels so it does not seem strange to limit its foreign ownership. If the purchase of US steel by a Japanese company threatens national security, surely the ownership of TikTok is also one.
- jimkleiber 2y agoI'm surprised no one replied to your post but maybe that's because it shuts down most arguments. Most, if not all, states in a nation-state world have laws that allow them to ban the imports of foreign goods. Maybe at some point we'll get a global government to resolve inter-national conflict but until then, we have nation-states dividing humanity to protect "their" humans.
- psiconaut 2y agoWithout wanting to enter into ideological debate too much, it seems a contradiction to invoke such rules when precisely the country we're talking about has boosted their GDP by selling products that capitalized on the effective minimization of borders in the information age. What I mean is: maybe it's not about protecting "their" humans (from what, exactly?), but protecting "their" corporations. Which is a very different goal.
- jimkleiber 2y agoVery possible. Most import tariffs and bans are to protect national industry. Still a "our humans are more important than yours" division of the world. But yes, countries who impose import restrictions often don't want others to impose them.
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- dirtshell 2y agoSure, but just because its law doesnt mean its just. If you are just talking about "the law" you are talking about something very different than everyone else. Even if its the law, its obviously a violation of the intent behind free speech to limit speech only to those who the government can intimidate. If the only way to have free speech is to be within arms reach of the government's threats you arent really a bastion of free speech, you just practice speech within the bounds of what the government will allow. And as we have recently seen, that can change dramatically depending on who is paying.
- ljlolel 2y agoIn related news, people are flooding social music service Hangout.fm to discover new music
- csin 2y agoI was curious and gave this site a shot. You know what would be great for a music site? If someone new was able to instantly hear music! Nope. After 5 mins of UI Ninjutsu, I gave up.
- addicted 2y agoThere is literally no content being banned. All the talk about the U.S. trying to censor is nonsensical, as all the opinions by the members of the unanimous Supreme Court clearly pointed out, considering any of those opinions can be made in the hundreds or thousands of other social media avenues. The entire situation hinges on TikTok’s ownership. They could sell themselves to any organization based outside China and have been given multiple opportunities to do so and they’ve refused. That tells you all you need to know about the priorities of ByteDance, considering the U.S. was their biggest market since they’re banned in both China and India, the only other countries larger than the U.S.
- cma 2y agoFacebook is not being banned from China. China just asks that Facebook sell itself to a non-American company or they will be banned (but it's not a ban). Any of those opinions China is "suppressing" by not allowing Facebook can be shared offline in countless unmonitored avenues like back alleys and open fields far enough away from lip reading drones.
- throwawayqqq11 2y agoCan someone please explain to me, why it is illegal to publish biased media? Please relate your answer to US native broadcasters like Fox News. The public discourse in the US appears very distorted. The rececently elected legislative heavily tampers with the executive/judicative and somehow this is stil democratic? IMO the tiktok ban is only about media control, no morale or legality, just political power and somehow there is still free speech for all? All this is so bizare to me. I dont expect reasonable answers.
- atsjie 2y agoAlways surprised me in the land of the "Free" they ban a whole lot more than in most other countries. Books, LGBT stuff, no objective media. It feels quite medieval.
- TheFreim 2y ago"Banned books!" is a phrase used for marketing, but it's not really accurate. Most, if not all, of the allegedly "banned books" aren't "banned" in the sense that you are implying, and the "banning" isn't being done by the fedeeal United States government. You can go to bookstores and see entire sections of "banned" books, which as you might guess from the fact that they are freely sold are not in fact really banned.
- remixff2400 2y agoI mean, book banning isn't a federal level thing (at least not at any remotely broad level) and typically happens either on one side of the political spectrum (same deal with LGBT stuff), or at the level of individual school systems. e.g. you won't find that book at the school library at most, but the bookstore down the street will have it. Vast difference from the typical notion of book burnings and such. "Objective" media exists (NPR, PBS(?), CSPAN) but just isn't as popular because biased media attracts more attention through confirmation bias and flashiness.
- TheFreim 2y ago> Can someone please explain to me, why it is illegal to publish biased media? You have been misinformed, it is not illegal to publish biased media. > The rececently elected legislative heavily tampers with the executive/judicative and somehow this is stil democratic. What are you trying to say? The majority passes something, and the Supreme Court chose to allow it to continue. > IMO the tiktok ban is only about media control, no morale or legality, just political power and somehow there is still free speech for all? You're right that it's about media control, namely a foreign adversary being able to completely control media widely consumed in the United States. Framing a content-neutral conditional ban, which could've been avoided without any content changes, as being against "free speech" makes zero sense when the platform being banned is controlled by a foreign adversary that doesn't have free speech. The argument is that a foreign adversary shouldn't be allowed to censor and manipulate our media and farm our data.
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- leave3644 2y ago[flagged]
- openrisk 2y agoIts kinda morbidly amuzing to ponder what European countries (and others besides the 'quarreling' US/China duo) will do now. Will they also ban TikTok as a security threat? If not, will they issue a statement contradicting US actions? If they do, what about US owned platforms that have been known to e.g., interefere with European elections (Facebook / Cambridge Analytica) and (at least) one of the owners openly supports certain type of party across the continent? What a grotesque theater. How much more hypocricy can the political classes that enabled the wholesale enshittificarion of our digital lives get away with?
- hunglee2 2y agoBottom line is: it is reasonable for governments to exercise control over the information environment their citizens experience, especially when social media has such potential to sow chaos and instability. Look at how the US internet fuelled the fires of the Arab Spring / HK protests / Jan 6th / Any number of colour revolutions in Europe. Even today, we see X being used as a platform to encourage protests against governments in UK and Germany. National sovereignty is contingent on digital sovereignty - everyone is going to need a firewall.
- haizhung 2y agoIt seems you are being downvoted, but I see this similarly. Elon musk applying pressure in German elections or UK politics via X/Twitter is basically exactly the problem with foreign interests controlling your social media; so I kinda hope the ban does set an example for other countries. Maybe, once the inflammatory platforms like X & Facebook are banned in the EU, then we can also get a social network that is not fueled by VC growth and engagement metrics; but can be run by a nonprofit or something. A man can dream.
- hunglee2 2y agoI think EU will not ban these platforms but mired them down with never ending stream of lawsuits, and eventually force a withdrawal - similar to how some US companies don't serve EU due to GDPR etc. A proper firewall should create the space for domestic services to re-emerge - and yes, we have a chance that these could be democratic from ground up. Lets hope so.
- 9dev 2y agoElon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos have been putting their heads so far up into Trump's rear they are probably looking out of his mouth by now. There is absolutely zero chance for actual democratic systems to emerge in a country where the top 1% own 35% of literally everything there is to own, cronies in the government, and apex corporations mended to the will of an 80 year old convicted felon
- gitgud 2y agoIt actually happened… I guess Instagram and YouTube will be getting a tonne more traffic then
- chgs 2y agoUntil lunchtime tomorrow?
- demarq 2y agoMedia approved by the state (of _) shall be the only media you all can freely access.
- low_tech_love 2y agoI’m too old to be optimistic but this was a great final message from the Biden administration: that the US still has the courage and power to stand up for itself and fight back. Regardless of what happens in the next 4 years of the coward administration that’s coming, the phantom of a real president/government will at least (hopefully) be there.
- dandanua 2y agoWhen does X go dark too? It's a platform that spreads hate, racism, misogyny and other right wing fascists agenda under Musk's rule. Or is this OK, is this a new policy of USA?
- MemesAndBooze 2y agobut it has flaws too!
- mrkramer 2y ago"Trump is gonna unban us!" - TikTok's wet dream.
- doener 2y ago"Okay, now it is really bad: The ban – which is an incredible overreach – was a bipartisan effort by congress. Sticking it to Biden seems very, very off. Biden explicitly left the decision if and how it is enforced to Trump. ⇒ No reason to go dark now to have a huge: “Thank you, tangerine tyrant, that you are willing to maybe save us!” I do enjoy Tik Tok a lot, but is it unanimously good or even only unproblematic? Hell, no. It is an indoctrination machine. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/01/18/tiktok-shut-down-ban-us/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/01/18/tiktok-..." https://social.tchncs.de/@HeptaSean/113854276302658566 https://social.tchncs.de/@HeptaSean/113854276302658566
- willtemperley 2y agoWho’s in charge of thought control now?
- cft 2y agoThis is not just special interests. It's also a Blueprint for future internet censorship in the US, so the government likes it too
- Developerx 2y agoThis is taste of US so called democracy and freedom
- psiconaut 2y agoThere's an interesting cognitive bias in the western media that tends to define freedom of the press (and freedom of expression) as exactly what is perceived as freedom in this side of the iron curtain. Libgen domains are "seized", and tiktok "goes dark", but of course other countries "censor" porn or news outlets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index
- tgv 2y ago[flagged]
- psiconaut 2y agoBut that is precisely what I was talking about. You do not seem to find any commonality between censoring different categories of websites or apps. As far as I understand it, "media", "gambling", "porn", "politics" are quite common categories when researching (and defining) online censorship. See, for instance, https://censoredplanet.org/censoredplanet https://censoredplanet.org/censoredplanet You say "banned", but that is not quite the same as "censored". Just try and search, you will see the US "bans" and China or Iran "censor". Perhaps one regime's "censorship" is experienced as "lawfully banned" from within the context of their legal and cultural system. And no, I don't see why would I keep my edgy observations to myself. That would be self-censorship :)
- tgv 2y agoBecause it isn't censoring. Censoring is selective removal of information. This is wholesale. The tiktok ban isn't even about suppressing information. If you search for e.g. the Moscow Times, you'll also find words like "banned", "declare illegal foreign agent" in the Western press. Censorship already applied to that news outlet, but after the feb 2023 offensive, the Russian state simply forbade the whole publication. > You do not seem to find any commonality between censoring different categories of websites or apps. The fact that they're different is important. Pornography is really different from journalism. Aversion against public nudity and sexual acts is deeply ingrained in many cultures, if not all. It also doesn't serve any democratic goal. Freedom of porn isn't a human right.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y agoThe United States has become a parody of itself. Six years ago, The Onion mocked the idea of TikTok being dangerous to the US as a paranoid fantasy.[0] Now, that position is bipartisan consensus. China hysteria appears to have no limits. 0. https://theonion.com/xi-whiz-1844838344/ https://theonion.com/xi-whiz-1844838344/
- infecto 2y agoTo think China is not an adversary to the West is simply foolish. Either via blatant cyberattacks, corporate espionage or nefarious trade moves, China is not a friend.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y agoI don't even know what you mean by "adversary to the West." China is a major country that has its own interests, which sometimes align with and sometimes are at odds with those of the US, EU countries, and other countries that belong to "the West." The type of simplistic friend/enemy thinking that you're engaging in will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. As China hysteria continues to skyrocket to previously unforseeable levels in the US, the US will take ever more extreme measures, the relationship between the US and China will get worse and worse, and the two will eventually come into real conflict. The only way to avert that fate is to counter simplistic "China is the enemy" thinking.
- infecto 2y agoIt’s amazing that you have a lot of ideas to defend China but completely clueless how China is an adversary to most of the west. This is the same thinking that Europe fell for with regards to Russia. You don’t happen to reside in Europe so you? There is no simplistic friend/enemy, notice how you are using those words not me. Countries of all level of diplomacy play games. Geopolitics are shades of gray and it would be blind to say China has not over the past 10 years gotten bolder in state sponsored cyberattacks, flying satellites/balloons over the US, market flooding, taking HK early, state sponsored corporate espionage. Please stop using your simple mental models. Nobody is getting in a conflict as of yet and it’s in nobody’s economic interest. China still thinks very much in terms of economics but on the long horizon. You think in such a binary way with this strange idea that anyone is getting into a military conflict.
- Razengan 2y agoI hope all other countries ban/block Facebook, Twitter and Microsoft social apps, and throw in Discord as well. Then, when the civilians are tired of this bullshit and the dust settles, we emerge with truly decentralized social networks.
- rand0m4r 2y agogreat news
- pknerd 2y agoFrom CBSNews: > U.S. officials have repeatedly warned that TikTok threatens national security because the Chinese government could use it as a vehicle to spy on Americans or covertly influence the U.S. public by amplifying or suppressing certain content. In other words, US officials are scared that China is going to do what the USA has been doing with American social media apps in various countries
- junto 2y agoThis ^^ And if the U.S. does ban TikTok then it sets a precedent that other countries can ban U.S. and Chinese social media apps in the same manner. Europe for example.
- TMWNN 2y agoThat precedent has always existed. The US banning TikTok changed nothing from a legal standpoint.
- x3n0ph3n3 2y agoChina _already_ bans U.S. social media.
- pknerd 2y agoFor the same reasons US is doing now ;)
- Omatic810 2y agoWhat stopped other countries from doing just that before?
- pknerd 2y agoEconomic Hitmen
- genocidicbunny 2y ago> In other words, US officials are scared that China is going to do what the USA has been doing with American social media apps in various countries Yes, and? It's naive to think that this is anything new or surprising -- a country attempting to further it's own interests ahead of other countries that it is competing with.
- axegon_ 2y agoHistorically the US has been always behind the curve when it comes to personal online privacy and security threats compared to Europe(and it's not like we are doing a good job at all, Europe is pretty shit as well), but here, today, I am utterly jealous of the US. Let's hope the EU commission gets their shit together and follows soon.
- nico 2y agoVery interesting to see how effective US propaganda can be Going by the comments, it seems a lot of people here actually believe this whole thing is about “China” “China” is the new “communism”. It’s just the phantom enemy to scare everyone Without a real disclosure about the real reasons for the TT ban, we will never really know what is going on behind the scenes Maybe we’ll have to wait a few decades to get some unclassified docs
- andy_ppp 2y agoI wish we would ban social media for at least 2 days per week, these apps are extremely distracting and will be seen like gambling addiction in the future.
- sethammons 2y agoWhere's the line? Does hn count?
- LinuxBender 2y agoWhere's the line? Does hn count? It does to a degree but HN by design encourages people to set limits in their profile options with maxvisit, minaway, noprocrast. Self govern rather than govern from above.
- andy_ppp 2y agoI would say social media should be required to put in 15 minute breaks every hour by default and maybe you can switch it off. That would be a reasonable compromise.
- dark-star 2y agoMy unpopular opinion on this: - Trump schemes to get TikTok blocked in the US - He waits till he is in charge - Presents himself as White Knight (or rather Orange Knight?) - Gets TikTok unbanned - Popularity with the younger generation rises - ...profit?
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoTrump will of course be happy to be perceived as the hero that unblocked TikTok (after having requested ByteDance to block it today), but I'm sure "profit" comes first. He isn't doing this to be nice to China, or nice to the US's TikTok-addicted youth ... he's doing this because it puts money into the pocket of Donald Trump .. precisely in what way(s) remains to be discovered.
- pseingatl 2y ago[flagged]
- moffkalast 2y agoLand of the free to exploit the working class morelike.
- Dylan1312 2y agoFreedom, except from narcissistic conspiracy theorists spreading misinformation about serious illnesses (and their strange obsession with horse wormers) that results in your grandparents dying.
- user3939382 2y agoWeird that “horse wormer” is on the WHO list of essential medicine
- Dylan1312 2y agoYes, under the "Intestinal anthelmintics" section..
- thrawa8387336 2y agoMust be autistic
- user3939382 2y agoSo the appropriate label if you had to pick one in the context of humans taking it would be “horse dewormer” how? Because you’re being disingenuous and deceptive, or you’re ignorant.
- genocidicbunny 2y agoAs far as I am aware, you're still allowed to talk about all of those things? Has someone been prosecuted for speaking about any of those things? Like, actual criminal charges pressed for specifically speaking about those things? Freedom of speech is not freedom to demand a platform to speak in. You don't have a constitutional right to a soapbox, just one to not be prosecuted for speaking from a soapbox you found. And unless you own said soapbox, you're relying on the owner of the soapbox to continue to allow you to use it.
- coffeebeqn 2y agoThe game Marvel Snap is also offline in the US due to being part of the Bytedance game publisher arm.
- PicassoCTs 2y agoAnd its off to the races who creates the most addictive successor
- saos 2y agoGood. China bans almost anything and everything. Why should we feed data to them freely.
- sylens 2y agoWhile I have no particular love for Tiktok, I hope this serves as an educational moment for younger generations about putting all of your trust in apps and app store gatekeepers instead of the open web.
- lousken 2y agothis is going to be the most productive sunday in US history
- burgerrito 2y agoNot my country so I couldn't care less. Just my observation from two oceans away: US is a hypocrite. How about Meta and other US companies? Those companies does the same if not worse damage to your citizen.
- genocidicbunny 2y ago> US is a hypocrite No, it's not. The point is about who's doing the damage. Ultimately, you can't really drop a ginsu telephone pole or send a 3-letter agency for a late night visit to a China-controlled company's leadership, but you can do that with US-based companies. From a geopolitical stance, US companies can be wielded to further US' interests, not so much for ByteDance.
- crazylogger 2y agoIMO Pandora's box is now open, and it's a matter of time before we see countries around the world offer the same divest-or-ban choice to Meta, Google, etc. The question is who first and how quickly it will happen.
- hagbarth 2y agoFacebook and Google are already banned or blocked in multiple countries.
- crazylogger 2y agoYou raise a good point. Let me step back and say that previously it's mostly authoritarian countries doing it and this type of censorship is generally unacceptable in Western societies, that the US is fundamentally different from China in the freedoms they allow. Today we are shown that the US government can't tolerate a single non-American service becoming mainstream after all. I fear this will become the norm and in a couple years' time, all countries will block all foreign internet services by default, only homegrown apps will exist. Think Canada, France, the UK each having their own versions of Google, Instagram, Reddit, everything.
- dankle 2y agoGood
- infecto 2y agoWhere I struggle with the narrative that I see often on here is regarding free speech, the idea that this is 1984/Animal Farm or some kind of antidemocratic action. The CCP has tight control over every company in mainland China. Until you can prove to me that the US government is controlling Meta, any of the whataboutism is just pointless. China is a fairly nefarious actor on the world stage, they grip media with an iron fist and within the country there is no room for swaying opinions, country and party first. ByteDance US had years to figure out an IPO or another way to divest controlling ownership from its mainland counterpart. They did nothing and only argued on free speech. The decision was not one of rational economic thinking, which makes you wonder what they want to achieve. China does play a real threat to American and other western interests and has done so for many years. If you have evidence that ByteDance is not controlled by the CCP or that the CCP has not very openly played many games both economically, politically and socially I would be happy to see that evidence.
- hacker_88 2y agoIf everyone started doing this ,we would have Google and Facebook in each country owned and operated individually
- concerndc1tizen 2y agoIs it possible that all of these are true at the same time? - Tiktok has great content and a great algorithm to help you find it - Tiktok advances Chinese interests - Tiktok spies and collects data, such as scraping your clipboard, network - Tiktok collects face recognition data on citizens worldwide - Tiktok is addictive, and designed to be - Tiktok is cultural expression, and contributes to people's feeling of identity - Tiktok provides a platform for critical thinking and debate - Trump wants to control it for his own profit motive, not because it's what's best for the US - Tiktok contributed to Brexit, and similar political crises in the EU - Tiktok is part of the Chinese 100 year marathon strategy and so on...
- ragazzina 2y ago>Tiktok contributed to Brexit This does not seem possible, Tiktok was launched in 2016.
- concerndc1tizen 2y agoFair point :D it was more about arguing that the situation is complex and it can be an excellent and terrible app at the same time, depending on what your measure is.
- metalman 2y agoThe largest ever constituency in the USA, has now been banned and eliminated. There has been no disclosure of factual evidence for doing this. The reason given for doing this is vague and goes in the face of almost? all? legal precident regarding property and free speach. Every single person under the age of 40, was on TicTok, and in there own way, every single one of them is going to put on a tight little smile and say "ok, then" I wonder if they are going to crash the app stores?
- spacechild1 2y agoToday I learned that TikTok has been used by over half the US population! In Europe, usage numbers are significantly lower and it's still generally regarded as something for young people. In fact, I only know very few adults (in my country) who actively use TikTok. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/tiktok-users-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/tiktok-us...
- bionade24 2y agoAny US resident that could write something about their insights how Tiktok became so popular with residents over 30? What are the typical usage reasons for more mature people that differ from the incentives for young people?
- warner25 2y agoI have a single anecdote, not much insight, but I'm interested in advancing discussion around your question. My wife, in her mid-30s, has friends who will share or send her links to TikTok videos. She says that she can't view them because she doesn't have an account, but she doesn't want to create an account because she "knows she has an addictive personality" [1] and has read about the power of TikTok. Anyway, I imagine that this is how it starts for a lot of people: not wanting to miss out on stuff sent by a friend, creating an account to check it out, and then rapidly getting sucked into the addictive user experience. And it keeps spreading the same way from there. [1] She does, and I'm thankful that she recognizes this. She's already a heavy consumer of Facebook Reels, by the way.
- spacechild1 2y agoThe only friend on mine who actively uses TikTok (as far as I'm aware) has ADHD...
- senbrow 2y ago35 year old US resident here - the recommendation algorithm is incredibly good at being very quickly tuned to your interests, so if you learn to take that seriously it's an incredible tool for learning about different crafts / trades / topics from experts who create content. For example, my feed was full of electrician and HVAC content, philosophy, skiing tutorials, constitutional law, international news, physics, etc. You have to use the app with intention to arrive at and maintain this state. I actively press the "not interested" button on videos that are mindless or just not in line with the kind of experience I want (rage bait, suggestive content, brand content, etc). That's a skill that many non-TikTok users don't really understand as well I think. The algorithm is very much like an AI companion in some ways, which can be good or bad depending on the user's maintenance and steering of that relationship.
- neilpomerleau 2y agoPeople are already sideloading it: https://x.com/Signulous/status/1880863785549988037 https://x.com/Signulous/status/1880863785549988037
- sirolimus 2y agoFinally
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yegortk 2y agoA sad day for the country that holds free speech in high regard
- dirtshell 2y agoIncredible how short peoples' memories are. "The American security aparatus says its dangerous" has historically been a very poor indicator of a threat to the American people, and usually forecasts misguided geoplotical interests that will have long lasting echoes. Gulf of Tonkin, Red Scare, WMDs, etc. No idea why people believe now, over the dancing app, the secret briefing given to congress was factual. In fact many congress people have said is was extremely vague with 0 evidence aside from "we think this is happening, and it definitely could happen". It becomes more and more clear that the people supporting this app don't use the app, making it easy to imagine the worst. The reality of this situation seems very obvious to me: Meta sees the future, and knows that they have lost the next generation to tiktok and social media platforms that are authentic. FB is doomed, Instagram is all ads and manicured posts, and the Metaverse is perpetually 10 years ahead of the tech. They wanted to do what they did last time they needed to stay relevant: buy a relevant company (Instagram). Tiktok wasnt interested. So since they cant compete they spend a fraftion of the money they would need to compete fairly to simply bribe the government to ban the app. Its a "security risk"! And look, they are saying all these bad things about Israel, your AIPAC bribers hate the app too! Its definitely not that Israel is a pariah state that the entire world except for the US (where bribery is legal and encouraged) despises because of their crimes against humanity, its the Chinese government controlling the app! And you have no way of forcing them to censor the news like you can on Meta and MSM! Sprinkle some red scare in the pot, talk ominously about China, and now all the representatives (avg age 63 btw) are scared about the chinese controlled brain control app that all their grandkids love. Anytime something remotely political comes up on HN I'm reminded that the people that tend to be very matter of fact and well informed on the intricacies of tech are no more immune to tribalism and groupthink than anyone else. No ciritical thought when the government says something they agree with, no matter how nebulous and manufactured it is. And yes, I include myself in that group. Reminds me to take everything I read on here with a healthy grain of salt because this same tribalist-bias exists in seemingly objective tech discussion.
- gcanyon 2y agoClaude summary of the Supreme Court opinion at: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf 1. Background on TikTok: - Launched in 2017, TikTok has over 170 million U.S. users and 1 billion worldwide - Users create, publish, view, share and interact with short videos with audio and text - Features a personalized "For You" page using a proprietary algorithm - Operated in the U.S. by TikTok Inc. (California-based company) - Ultimate parent company is ByteDance Ltd., a private Chinese company that: - Owns TikTok's algorithm (developed/maintained in China) - Develops portions of TikTok's source code - Is subject to Chinese laws requiring cooperation with intelligence work and government data access 2. Arguments by Petitioners (TikTok & Users): - First Amendment violations due to: - Burden on content moderation and content generation - Restricting access to a distinct medium of expression - Limiting association with preferred speakers/editors - Restricting receipt of information and ideas - Argued the Act should face strict scrutiny as content-based regulation - Claimed divestiture within 270 days is commercially infeasible, making it an effective ban - Argued alternative measures could address security concerns without banning TikTok 3. Arguments by Respondents (Government): - Primary justification: Preventing China from collecting vast amounts of sensitive data from 170M U.S. users - Secondary justification: Preventing foreign adversary control over the recommendation algorithm - Argued for intermediate scrutiny as content-neutral regulation - Cited national security concerns and Chinese laws requiring data sharing - Pointed to failed negotiations with ByteDance for alternative security measures 4. Main Opinion: The Court affirmed the D.C. Circuit's ruling that the Act does not violate the First Amendment, finding: - Applied intermediate scrutiny as the Act is content-neutral - Found compelling government interest in preventing Chinese data collection - Determined the Act is sufficiently tailored to address security concerns - Notable quote: "Data collection and analysis is a common practice in this digital age. But TikTok's scale and susceptibility to foreign adversary control, together with the vast swaths of sensitive data the platform collects, justify differential treatment to address the Government's national security concerns." 5. Concurring Opinions: Justice Sotomayor: - Agreed with outcome but argued First Amendment clearly applies - Cited TikTok's expressive activity in "compiling and curating" material Justice Gorsuch: - Expressed concerns about rushed timeline (14 days to resolve) - Praised Court for not considering classified evidence hidden from petitioners - Questioned whether law is truly "content neutral" - Agreed government has compelling interest in preventing data harvesting - Found law appropriately tailored after other solutions proved inadequate 6. Dissenting Opinions: None filed. 7. Other Relevant Details: - The Court emphasized the narrow scope of its ruling given the novel technology issues - Showed substantial deference to Congress's national security judgments - The Act was passed with strong bipartisan support (352-65 in House, 79-18 in Senate) - The Court noted but did not rely on classified evidence in reaching its decision The Supreme Court's ruling allows the Act to take effect, requiring TikTok to either complete a qualified divestiture from Chinese ownership or cease U.S. operations, marking a significant development in the intersection of national security, technology regulation, and First Amendment rights.
- hsuduebc2 2y agoI wonder. Isn't it that type of "ban" that simple VPN to Europe resolve? I wouldn't be surprised if zoomers would watch tutorials how to get vpn on instagram right now.
- Abismith 2y ago[dead]
- alkonaut 2y agoHow does this work, why are they banning individual companies? Shouldn't they be pointing to the regulation broken (or just set up such regulation)? Is the problem here that this is on the federal level and there is are no federal privacy regulations so they just have to wing it? Speaking of which, how does this work with the GDPR? Does TikTok abide by the GDPR in Europe or are they just not able to sanction them for violating it?
- bentt 2y ago“Give us more control over your algorithm and we will let you stick around”
- rlenrba 2y agoMaritime powers want to control choke points, flow of goods, flow of information, flow of gas and natural resources. In this particular case I don't care. But it fits in with the Nordstream sabotage, the attempts to control Arctic sea routes via Greenland, the attempted control of the Panama canal and the attempts in the Caspian sea region via Georgia, Armenia and Ukraine.
- itfossil 2y agoAnybody who thinks TikTok is coming back anytime soon is a sucker. They aren't selling and the law only allows for extensions if they are in the process of selling. Trump may be able to violate the law with impunity thanks to the morons on our Supreme Court but nobody else involved with the TikTok ban (Google, Apple, Oracle) has that luxury.
- anonu 2y agoMaybe US Productivity will see a boost now.
- MemesAndBooze 2y agoevery state has the right to enforce whatever laws it prefers within its own borders. it would be nice if the united states allowed other states to be sovereign at home instead of constantly interfering in their political decisions. as a non-american citizen, i couldn't care less if the usa bans tiktok. i consider it a legitimate decision by their government, whether i like it or not.
- sethd 2y agoDoes anyone know how divesting in this case would actually work? Would Bytedance still own shares in the resulting US entity? Shares they could sell or get paid with via dividends, just no control over operations?
- Febra33 2y agoThe US hegemony is dying and it is showing. The sign of a crumbling empire. Also, funny how any made up argument about national security goes before the first amendment.
- Febra33 2y agoTime for the EU to ban Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, due to foreign interference.
- grajaganDev 2y agoByteDance has agency. They had the chance to divest TikToc and chose not to.
- pickinrust 2y agoSo today's tiktok users would be like this...https://youtube.com/shorts/EOJkm9s5dSE?si=aCoDGv4mNhkImc5e https://youtube.com/shorts/EOJkm9s5dSE?si=aCoDGv4mNhkImc5e
- amai 2y agoTikTok is forbidden in India already since 2020: https://time.com/7208112/what-happened-when-india-banned-tiktok/ https://time.com/7208112/what-happened-when-india-banned-tik...
- jMyles 2y ago...and everybody knows, _nobody_ in India uses tiktok.
- Workaccount2 2y agoThe extreme irony here, is that what tiktok is being banned for -the ability to sway national opinion, is exactly what they are doing with that Trump ego stroking message. If that message and it's implications are flying over your head, please look up.
- idunnoman1222 2y agoAmerican youth was too crirical of Israel and too supportive of Luigi Mangione. Youth needed to be punished and also pushed into american platforms where the algorithm can suppress certain type of content that the ruling class does not approve.
- moviet 2y ago(Perspective from an American) Information is the gold of the 21st century. Whoever controls the flow of information has all the wealth and all the power. Therefore, data is the greatest currency in the world. This outcome was never intended to happen, but ByteDance is taking a chance that the American government will relent. We’ll see in a few months who wins the stalemate. TikTok has an immense amount of cultural power. The concentration of power scares me, no matter who holds it. But China ultimately having that power scares me more than an American company having it. Again, this outcome was preventable, but ByteDance is hoping Americans let them continue with the status-quo. We didn’t and we shouldn’t.
- ok123456 2y agoI'm an American too, and I trust an app that has "china" somewhere in it's org chart more than Zuckerberg or any meta product.
- aborochoff 2y agoBecause youre ignorant of what china somewhere in the org chart means?
- ok123456 2y agoPlease share a source that's not a CIA funded NGO or think tank.
- sanderjd 2y ago"Please share a source" is an incredibly dumb retort in the realm of geopolitics. "Please share a source that the allied powers are going to invade the beaches of Normandy". You can't, because people are working incredibly hard to keep that secret.
- ok123456 2y agoSo you don't have any? ok.
- pajop 2y agoGoogle NotebookLM Audio Deep Dive on this HN thread: https://jumpshare.com/v/OFPXiOv9KR8pCtSmWlg2 https://jumpshare.com/v/OFPXiOv9KR8pCtSmWlg2
- option 2y agoNo Chinese apps should be allowed to operate in USA while similar US apps are banned in China.
- fny 2y agoIf China doesn’t permit our social media and search engine companies to operate in their country, why should we allow theirs in ours? Reciprocity in market access should be a baseline expectation.
- jonathanstrange 2y agoSounds great to me. Now EU authorities should ban Xitter in the EU. Stop foreign election interference!
- getnormality 2y ago> In the meantime, alternative Chinese-owned apps like RedNote and Lemon8 have received a boost as TikTok users search for alternatives. Why does it seem that there's no non-Chinese alternative to TikTok popular enough to warrant any mention?
- api 2y agoNot sure how I feel about this. I don’t like the precedent, but I also loathe this industry. It’s a bit like heavy handed crackdowns on tobacco. Yeah, I lean liberal/libertarian but cancer. I see nothing redeeming in these addictive slop factories. They create nothing and the content on them is trash. All they do is hack your dopamine system to shovel in ads, empty filler, or worse hate and fear porn. There’s nothing they do that can’t better be done by forums, chat, the web, even AI agents, without the destruction of attention span and brain rot.
- jaco6 2y ago[dead]
- bakuninsbart 2y agoAs a European, I find it quite outrageous to demand a company be sold to the US because it is too successful and valuable to be foreign-held. It is the old-school imperialist school of thought. If you think Bytedance is harming Americans, despite following american law, then amend the rules for social media companies. Or at least be honest enough to say: "The free market is great, but only if we hold all the cards".
- rNULLED 2y agoThis is what they have said, in the most honest way of all — action!
- jewelry 2y agowell I believe if bytedance is a French company or Australian company this wont happen
- chpatrick 2y agoI think it's totally reasonable when it has massive influence over your population and is controlled by a geopolitical adversary. The EU banned Russia Today (correctly in my opinion) and that was nothing compared to TikTok. Propaganda isn't free speech.
- parpfish 2y agoI agree that the TikTok shutdown/sale/whatever-it-is is reasonable. But I also agree with the grandfather post that this standard should be applied to all social media. A company that is under the sway of the CCP is an obvious first step, but just because twitter and facebook are American-owned doesn’t mean that geopolitical adversaries can’t use them to control the population too.
- regularization 2y agoThere are a number of cults in the US with a strong leader, living in a rural area where information about the world outside is limited. There are Hasidic dynasties and Christian groups like this. To a lesser but wider degree there are fundamental Protestant groups like this - not exactly cults, but with some of this behavior. We see a celebration of this kind of thinking here. People want to be kept ignorant of the outside world and to keep others ignorant as well. It's a natural way to think, in the context of the road the US has been heading down for decades. People here are excited the US will be censoring seditious content just like China does. It reminds me less of China and more of post-1905, pre-1914 Russia and the ministry of internal affairs Bureau of Censorship. Not that it's the only factor, but I watch the US Congress sanctioning the UN and International Criminal Court for investigating the genocide in Gaza, and how many expressed their unhappiness about how Tiktok was a fissure in the US media bubble regarding that. Now Americans can be in their bubble a little longer, unaware of what the rest of the world thinks.
- quantum_state 2y agoIt’s sad to see so many people have been brainwashed… please think independently based on facts you can verify first hand … refrain from trusting anyone, especially the deep state people and politicians..
- fidotron 2y agoNow Marvel Snap is claiming it is banned in the US by the same mechanism due to ownership by ByteDance.
- landsman 2y agoSo young people learn how to use VPN and web apps.
- johnnyApplePRNG 2y agoThis is one of the most slippery slopes I think we have ever ventured down in the history of the Internet here in North America. Not impressed whatsoever with this. This is not what the internet is all about.
- MarcelOlsz 2y agoThe internet has been dead for like 20 years dude. It's been over.
- CuteMemeCoin 2y agoSo let's just roll over and give up then? Is that what you're implying? If nobody takes a stand against situations like this, it's only going to get worse. Enact laws that require app makes not to be allowed to harvest so much data and/or hold onto it for more than 24 hours perhaps. But don't just kick some massively successful company off of your country's internet because you're afraid.
- MarcelOlsz 2y agoThe only way me as a regular person is able to 'take a stand' is to take my income and assets and move somewhere that I believe is more conductive to the way I want to live. Maybe another open source library will fix it.
- dietr1ch 2y agoThe land of the free It's funny that Trump started this ban attempt, and now people look forward for him to undo the ban. Lord and Saviour...
- maeil 2y agoI don't remember ever seeing an article at the top of HN for 12 hours straight, and I'm on here an unhealthy amount. While it is a major event, it's definitely not the biggest we've seen, even in tech.
- jedimastert 2y agoI feel like a lot of these comments not understanding the sentiment are not looking at this in the context of what is going on in the US. The other alternatives people are suggesting are openly manipulating public opinion and stifling speech to serve their own interests at the detriment of the rest of US public. Books are being banned, the defunding of the department of education is an explicit goal at the incoming administration. The fact that Americans may or may not be incredibly susceptible to propaganda is a direct consequence of national public policy over the last few generations at least, and it's going to get much worse
- sashank_1509 2y agoAs someone who has used TikTok, I don’t hate the outcome, but hate the mendacity with which it was executed. TikTok is brain rot, a better way of describing it is digital crack. You can spend hours and hours on TikTok in a numb state, with no sense of what’s going on in the world around you. If the government decided, this addiction is not good, let’s treat it like a drug and ban it, I would be all for it. But claiming it is a tool of Chinese Propaganda is absurd. Anyone who uses TikTok, knows China can’t really gin up any propaganda through it. Propaganda only works if it seduces, not if it bludgeons and China as a country never seems to be able to seduce. It’s Hollywood that gets exported to China, Xi Jinpings daughter studied at Harvard, not the other way around. China is a fashion victim of US propaganda if anything. The worst China could do, was artificially boost “how cool China is” TikTok’s, crudely ban TianMen Square TikTok’s and this does not convince anyone. It only encourages even more subversive TikTok’s, weakening its power further. In fact I would claim, China not only has no power over those that use TikTok, but in its current regime, it has no pathway to ever influence those that use TikTok, even in the future. The Chinese regime is practically capable but culturally uncool. All that the American Regime has succeeded in banning TikTok, is embarrass the American Regime and reveal itself to be equally uncool in the eyes of Gen Z. If you browsed TikTok recently, you have seen probably all the ironic TikTok’s of Americans saluting the Chinese National Anthem. This irony from the younger generation, itself shows how uncool Congress has become. A culturally dominant regime, would have no reason to worry about enemy’s propaganda, and America didn’t realize it but it was very culturally dominant, now however it’s own insecurity has harmed its prestige significantly.
- beretguy 2y ago> But claiming it is a tool of Chinese Propaganda is so absurd. It is a tool of chinese propaganda and surveillance.
- paulbgd 2y agoYou’re assuming that they only have the power to show the user propaganda, but I think the real power is in hiding content they don’t want people to see.
- chis 2y ago
- adanto6840 2y agoIt appears to be back online as of 8:30AM PT. I saw it down an hour ago or so, but seems to be operating as usual again now. That was quicker than I had expected, though I thought they'd probably find a way to avert even a temporary shutdown to begin with.
- taimurkazmi 2y agoThings censored from the article: Shirtless pics LGBTQ posts My Hero Academia The funny thing is, I saw videos from Chinese users that specifically mentioned not to post these things. I had to look up why the anime, and apparently the creator made choices that directly poked at old WW2 tensions between Japan and China.
- mancerayder 2y agoLet's put aside freedom of speech and Meta v China for a moment: Has anyone suspected foreign interference in our social media during the height of the culture wars in the last decade? We had people encouraging civil unrest on the Left (whenever there was some police shooting or event where racism was suspected), and we had people encouraging civil unrest on the right (an immigrant committed a crime, or similar). We had puppet trolls in Twitter, Facebook, Reddit etc. Russia and the United States have been doing this to each other - stirring civil unrest with propaganda - since the 1950s. It's an old war. Does that not merit consideration in this conversation?
- gchamonlive 2y agoI think it does, but you make it sound like it's a symmetric information war. It's not. From your examples de difference is that we've witnessed police brutality in the us with countless examples of excessive force (the hood and the knee to the throat are example. Whereas the same cannot be said for immigrants, first because I think it's an opinion that wins votes for these anti-stablishment ultra right wing, second because it's totally different to compare immigrants and the police as an institution.
- mancerayder 2y agoYou completely missed the point. The point is that there appear to be foreign actors encouraging divisions in the American population. The point was definitely not, this side is naughty and that other side is wholesome, or vice-versa, or they're equal, and let's debate. Nope, let's not debate that please.
- gchamonlive 2y agoIf it's that then it's even worse. There surely are powers dividing Americans but the biggest threat isn't foreign. It's internal, slowly manipulating public opinion to trap the country into an oligarchy. I am aware of the irony here. I'm Brazillian and the vice president based his entire campaign on the false threat of an internal actor distabilizing the country, in this case the communists. It's the same thing in US but it's a foreign actor to blame. Curious how the narrative always fits the agenda. Rule of thumb, if the political geist points one way the problem most likely lies in the opposite way.
- beretguy 2y agoTikTok is a dumb, cringy, addictive product. That is enough for it to be banned in my book, regardless even of "propaganda, surveillance" etc. stuff. I can't even imagine how little life you have to have to tolerate using it.
- whoevercares 2y agoIn the current geopolitical climate, just how far might we go in barring Chinese H‑1B visa holders from industries we label “critical to national security”—sectors such as cloud computing and artificial intelligence? Could such fear and suspicion escalate to the point of mass internment, echoing the shameful precedent of forcibly confining Japanese Americans during World War II? Most importantly, which legal safeguards, democratic institutions, and moral principles exist to ensure that such extreme xenophobic measures remain firmly off the table?
- thuanao 2y agoI’m honestly surprised at how many HN’ers are fine with totalitarianism as long as the bogeyman are Chinese.
- cpuguy83 2y agoThe real loss here is when my kids realized that they can no longer access CapCut.
- timnetworks 2y agoEveryone must keep in mind that the asian continent had a long issue with communism, and although it's almost extinguished, we should still be very careful about it, like a staph (staffing?) infection almost. Also lets not forget China bans all the western stuff outright yea?
- gigatexal 2y agoGood. Good riddance. Let’s do how long it lasts
- Insanity 2y agoIsn’t there a saying along the lines of “land of the free”? Except not free to choose which app you use. lol
- fourside 2y agoThis thread is trying to have a serious conversation about the merits and dangers of the US banning TikTok. I don’t think it’s going to happen. There’s too much value for Trump to leave on the table. He’s a showman and he’s giving us, mainly gen-z, a show. On Monday he will “save” TikTok. He can ingratiate himself with a demographic that historically had not leaned conservative. It seems so obvious yet I see people trying to debate the ban as if it’s going to stay in place. It won’t.
- thuanao 2y agoMaybe. Or it could get worse. We put communist sympathizers in jail in the past. We imprisoned 100k innocent Japanese US citizens in concentration camps. Instead of rolling the ban back this could be the first event in a new kind of McCarthyism. Be careful. Being seen as soft towards China could make you an enemy of the state soon, if it doesn’t already.
- etc-hosts 2y agoTiktok works fine for me if I pretend to be in Singapore. I open up tiktok: I see cute dog videos. I open up Twitter: Immediately get pushed white nationalist great replacement was Hitler actually bad? posts. Incredible.
- someonehere 2y agoThere’s proof from Federal agencies that they knew the algorithm was intentionally being weaponized to agitate and promote domestic protestors. Just look at the Chinese consulate shut down when 45 was in office last in Texas. It was rumored to be the base of operations for where the Chinese were weaponizing the algorithm against American interests.
- whimsicalism 2y agowe’ve seen this strategy of “intelligence agencies have proof, but they’re not releasing it” play out many times. i remember when the Hunter Biden laptop story had “all the earmarks of a Russian disinformation campaign”. i am not sure why this would give you any confidence that they have actual proof.
- qvrjuec 2y agoImagine what else they are doing: https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing...
- whimsicalism 2y ago1. this is not a trustworthy independent think tank, read who is on the board 2. anyone with half a statistics brain can see the problems in this analysis 3. i’m a big boy, i can consume content even if it comes from a skewed platform
- fargle 2y agoi'm conflicted. i don't want chinese controlled propaganda but i don't want us controlled propaganda either. but i suspect that the "safety"/propaganda arguments are window dressing and it's really economic protectionism, which at least i understand. but from a free-enterpise perspective, banning a legally operating company simply because of it's ownership seems worrisome, and it would seem a toothless unenforceable thing in the long run (e.g. sell TikTok to its own "independent" company on paper and keep pulling the strings). the realization is that this is a binary choice, either we ban it or we don't. but we shouldn't be in this position in the first place. neither choice is the right answer. i don't want any of the outcomes. i don't want a chinese facebook. i don't want a us controlled facebook. i don't want a facebook controlled facebook. you want to know how to keep giant governments out of your shit (us and china and russia, etc.)? how to keep giant corporations out of your knickers? if you favor economic protectionism, how to keep other countries from undermining your industries? how to keep giant corporations (us or chinese) from exploiting their monopolies to wreck our culture just so they can serve more advertisements? everyone on this forum, especially if you decry this ban, needs to stop defending, accepting, and allowing closed monopolistic computing and networking. app-store monopolies, for instance, secure-boot, device-non-ownership. we've given these companies persistent 100% control over our own devices and we (as surprised as you are) got monopolies. now we have to argue about which flavor of monopoly we want. the minute, via app store policy or via crypto/secure boot, you allow a company to select what i am or am not allowed to do, see, or buy on my own devices - this is what we are doomed to deal with as a result.
- moneycantbuy 2y agogood, not only is it malware/spyware, the chinese government can shape the beliefs and behaviors of > 100,000,000 americans at the flip of a switch. albeit users are idiots for giving their attention in the first place. and because capitalism = god, will probably end up selling to the saudis and/or elon co.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- einrealist 2y agoIt is absurd that users are not angry at TikTok for not protecting their data. Instead, TikTok weaponized the user base and made them belief that it is a free speech problem while they collected swaths of data and allowed it to leave US jurisdiction, into the hands of the Chinese government. And Democrats just sucked at messaging. Its not a "TikTok ban". The message should have been about data protection. And yes, it would be far better to pass something like the GDPR. But I guess, with the power of the US media companies, the TikTok law was a compromise.
- whimsicalism 2y agotiktok data is in the US, Malaysia, and Singapore.
- einrealist 2y agoThe US government claims otherwise. And even if data is not flowing to China directly, the threat is there from a legal point of view. Data is leaving US jurisdiction anyway. And China could force ByteDance to hand over data that is stored in Malaysia and Singapore.
- whimsicalism 2y agoso for data protection reasons, we only allow editorial discretion from US-domiciled companies? yeah i fully reject this jingoistic reasoning
- einrealist 2y agoThe law and also the SCOTUS ruling don't even touch editorial discretion. TikTok is free to do whatever as long user data is safe from being accessed by an adversary like the Chinese. Its TikTok who made it about editorial discretion and free speech. They failed with that argument. And I agree with that.
- iamEAP 2y agoMy (limited) understanding of this law is that it works by barring US companies from doing business with ByteDance, primarily hitting App Store providers and cloud service providers. There’s a world in which they could have migrated services to an off-shore cloud and continued to serve the existing users who already had the app installed (with the disadvantage that they would be unable to evolve the app itself, since no updates). It would have bought them time to figure out a long-term, legal fix. …But instead they chose to just block all users with US-based accounts. Someone made the calculation that failing the app loudly for US users was the better strategy.
- meltyness 2y agoThis was one for the (people who need to electronically hit) books.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chenster 2y agoChina should also unblock YouTube and Twitter/X, Facebook if US decided to reverse its decision on Tiktok.
- mbfg 2y agoI wonder how much TikTok will have to personally pay Trump to get reinstated. What would that be worth? Is it a one time fee, or could it repeat over time. Bad situation to be in for TikTok.
- latentcall 2y agoThe levels of McCarthyism and apparent Sinophobia in this thread astounds me. “The kids are watching communist propaganda from the CCP!” Americans on TikTok watch content from other Americans. I know a big complaint the government had was the overflow of support for the Palestinian people compared to Israel. Are you guys sure you’ve even used the app before? I used it some time ago and it was just other Americans doing dumb stuff or making political videos. People really just believe the first thing their government tells them and believes it so strictly? “They said it is a national security concern so I believe them and must spread their message!” Seems to me that TikTok had Americans on there sharing anti-Israel and anti-America content on there with other Americans. Didn’t Ted Cruz bring that up specifically to the CEO of TikTok as a problem?
- baq 2y ago> The levels of McCarthyism and apparent Sinophobia in this thread astounds me. Same for me, but I’m also extremely confused at the naivety of many commenters here who think ByteDance is somehow a company independent from China government and it’s only duty is to make money and that it somehow more important to have freedom of foreign business than freedom from foreign interference.
- mikebonnell 2y agoTikTok has now announced a reversal and is turning it back on.
- 1970-01-01 2y agoThe story everyone seems to be missing is how gatekeeping app stores are enforcing it. That is, if TikTok was sold as a "desktop program" which came in an envelope, and was given away for free just as America Online did decades ago, it very likely would be untouchable under the first amendment. The gatekeeping mechanisms at play are a large story that we've become ignorant to. >TikTok, however, suggested this was not enough assurance for “critical service providers” to continue listing or hosting the app in the United States unless the Biden administration... This would be a joke statement 20 years ago.
- danans 2y ago> and was given away for free just as America Online did decades ago, it very likely would be untouchable under the first amendment. Even if they could distribute it under 1st amendment l, what is stopping authorities from IP blocking TikTok servers? Gatekeeping can take place pretty deep in the OSI network stack, at levels that transmit data that can no longer simply be characterized as speech.
- 1970-01-01 2y agoThere is no "great firewall" on my side and there never will be.
- lqstuart 2y agoIn all the internet posts about this, I've never seen a response to the fact that China has been doing this to US tech interests basically forever, and even the EU has done its utmost to severely handicap US tech companies for the same reasons. Why hold the US to a double standard against our own interests? TikTok is the exact same garbage you can get from Insta, YouTube, for fuck's sake even LinkedIn has video now. What is the incentive to allow a hostile foreign power that repeatedly and overtly attacks our infrastructure to control the biggest player?
- zanderwohl 2y ago> TikTok is the exact same garbage you can get from Insta, YouTube, for fuck's sake even LinkedIn has video now As a user of TikTok and Instagram Reels, TikTok had an actually good algorithm that would show you interesting things after you showed interest. I found a lot of film students with great reviews through TikTok. Instagram and YouTube don't care to show you that kind of thing.
- divbzero 2y agoNote that the outgoing Biden administration has stated that it won’t enforce the TikTok ban today, choosing to leave implementation of the law to the incoming Trump administration. TikTok shutting down today is an internal choice. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-wont-enforce-tiktok-ban-leaving-fate-of-app-to-trump-official-says https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-wont-enforce-tik...
- _pferreir_ 2y agoLooking forward to seeing the ECJ order Meta to sell its European operations to a European company.
- rayiner 2y agoMy 12 year old daughter just walked over excited that Tik Tok was working again. I’m like “I wonder if Trump worked over the weekend to fix Tik Tok.” Sure enough: https://wgme.com/news/nation-world/tiktok-begins-restoring-service-in-us-after-trump-agrees-to-work-with-the-company-president-elect-executive-order-china-byte-dance-social-media-ban-biden-administration-americans-service-provider https://wgme.com/news/nation-world/tiktok-begins-restoring-s.... She gave me a high five lol.
- yencabulator 2y agoIt's coming back: https://www.theverge.com/2025/1/19/24347280/tiktok-ban-shutdown-ends https://www.theverge.com/2025/1/19/24347280/tiktok-ban-shutd... Anecdote says the app is currently having network trouble, so I expect there's some devops minions having a sweaty moment, but the ban is (to be) postponed (and in the meanwhile not enforced).
- abduhl 2y agoI cannot even imagine the indemnity provisions that were entered into by TikTok to give its network providers enough risk mitigation to turn the taps back on. As far as I can see, the app stores still are not listing ByteDance-related apps so it seems that TikTok could not assure Apple and Google.
- coin 2y ago> against arbitrary censorship Such hypocrisy given that the non-China version of TikTok is banned in China.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- vitalurk 2y agoNice move. Regulating competitors away while screaming about free markets. Not a meme country at all..
- cryptonector 2y agoThe U.S. is not really a free market. The textbooks used in high school have said that the U.S. is a "mixed economy" for many decades.
- soheil 2y agoHow is it that people still don't see thru this violation of their free speech right? TikTok got banned for one and only one reason: to silence the narrative around a 70 year old war. Sources: - ADL: "we have a major major major generational problem" ... "we have a tiktok problem" http://web.archive.org/web/20231116180709/https://media.mehrnews.com/d/2023/11/13/4/4736108_1080p.mp4?ts=1699895517001 http://web.archive.org/web/20231116180709/https://media.mehr... - US Representative (MIT alum): everyone in the U.S. Congress "has an AIPAC person" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2reaGhLnYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2reaGhLnYI False claims for the reason for the ban: - Tiktok has great content and a great algorithm to help you find it (that's a good thing) - Tiktok spies and collects data, such as scraping your clipboard, network (Apple iOS sandboxing prevents any app from doing so without explicit user permission - technical audience here shouldn't fall for this one easily) - Tiktok collects face recognition data on citizens worldwide (anyone scraping Instagram can do that - technical audience here shouldn't fall for this one easily) - Tiktok is addictive, and designed to be (so is Instagram, and?) - Tiktok is cultural expression, and contributes to people's feeling of identity (good; the more diverse cultural expressions the better) - Tiktok provides a platform for critical thinking and debate (not really a bad thing if you think about it) - Tiktok contributed to Brexit, and similar political crises in the EU (so does X) - Tiktok is part of the Chinese 100 year marathon strategy (vague scare tactic)
- dang 2y agoNext thread in the sequence: TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users after Trump comments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42759336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42759336 - Jan 2025 (22 comments)
- yason 2y agoIf I hadn't long time ago lost touch with the idea that Internet is a new global, rebellious space that transcends all limited, conservative, slow-moving nations, and that I can offer or use a service running wherever from wherever else I might be sitting as long as it's all connected to the internet, I'd be heartbroken to see services being stopped or driven away from within the borders of a certain geological area. But that train left the station so long time ago that the rails have all rusted since. I can only expect the bar to geopartition Internet services due to financial, political, and militarian whims to go lower and lower until eventually there's no global internet left. In any case, I'm glad I could see the 90's.
- mcoliver 2y agoAnd just like that Trump overturns it. Lost opportunity to actually break the psychological hold tiktok has on people. How can a single branch (in this case one person) override the other two branches of government? I thought that's what checks and balances were all about? The farther we get from "well that's a law, but we are going to selectively enforce it" the worse we will get as a society (see the former DA Gascons Los Angeles policy on not enforcing theft). Repeal the laws that don't make sense and enforce the ones on the books. The alternative is that we will continue to accumulate laws to the point everything is illegal and their enforcement determined by individuals which is effectively the same as no laws and everyone is subject to those with power. That is an existential threat to freedom.
- ngcc_hk 2y agoAs long as google, …. All can run in china. It is ok. If not it is unfair and not ok.
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago[dead]