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Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport
- wslh 2y agoWhat I genuinely don't understand is that Pavel Durov didn't see it coming.
- ndarray 2y agoWhy was the other thread removed? It was #1 on the main page.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- _Microft 2y agoThe discussion you are thinking about is neither dead nor flagged. Overly active discussions get downranked automatically: „Other factors affecting rank include user flags, anti-abuse software, software which demotes overheated discussions, account or site weighting, and moderator action.“, see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
- 627467 2y agoso. why not this one?
- dredmorbius 2y agoGeneral understanding is that the flamewar detector is triggered when posts exceed 20 comments and total comments exceeds votes: <https://www.righto.com/2013/11/how-hacker-news-ranking-really-works.html https://www.righto.com/2013/11/how-hacker-news-ranking-reall...> It's not perfect, but it really does often correctly identify flamewars. If you feel a post has incorrectly triggered the flamewar detector, email mods at hn@ycombinator.com. As I write, this thread doesn't trigger the criteria.
- mrinfinitiesx 2y agoWhile on the subject of Telegram, check this out: https://github.com/simplex-chat https://github.com/simplex-chat
- wkat4242 2y ago"100% private" claims always make me incredibly suspicious since it is impossible to achieve that. Security is a matter of threat modeling against an expected adversary and nothing protects against a serious interest from a state level actor. This is why I don't really care that Telegram doesn't do E2EE by default. Most of my chats aren't that interesting and in my threat model it's good enough.
- mrinfinitiesx 2y agoI don't disagree. It's just another messenger. Just a 'check it out' - I stick with the simple things. No need for 324823494234 different things that try to solve the same problems, and never do. The telegram jpg/file exploits recently with the inline imaging just go to show security is theater until the next CVE
- maqp 2y agoYeah absolutely not. The project lies about its ability to look away from the fact it has access to all IPs conversing. A server has to have a way to relay packets from identifier A to identifier B, yet they claim they don't know if A and B talk. And they claim something as mundane as a multiprocess Queue can achieve this.
- yangff 2y ago[flagged]
- greatgib 2y agoI did not see the info anywhere else, but it was just broadcasted by the main French tv channel. Pavel Durov, the Telegram founder was just arrested out of his airplane in the Bourget airport in France near Paris. There is no info about why exactly he was arrested but it looks like that French police had a warrant for him. But it looks like it is because that he is accused of being an accessory of a lot of things like traffic, drugs, pedopornography, anything bad you can image because he would not have done anything to combat that on Telegram. If it is real, it would really be the same kind of political crime abuse on an individual of the same level as what happened to Julian Assange. I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would probably like very much to use that to blackmail him to add backdoors to telegram. So sad.
- Glacia 2y ago>I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would probably like very much to use that to blackmail him to add backdoors to telegram Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government?
- greatgib 2y agoSince forever I stay suspicious but so far Telegram as an impeccable track record. Never there was a single instance of case where there would be even a suspicion of proof that insider knowledge of conversations was accessed/used. Also, it is clear that Durov is a dissident and personally experienced and run away of the dictatorial state. So I think that it is probably one of the tech personality that I trust the most in the world.
- ceinewydd 2y agohttps://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21 https://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21 I'm not sure that counts as an impeccable track record.
- lxgr 2y ago“Track record” is an incredibly poor indicator for the lack of a government backdoor, thinking back to Snowden, for example.
- chad1n 2y agoFrom Telegram sources: >Pavel Durov faces up to 20 years in prison in France. The trial will take place very soon – sources close to the investigation. In addition to drug trafficking, he is accused of collaborating with an organized crime group, covering up for pedophiles, fraud and money laundering. I don't know how reliable this is, but I've seen in 3-4 sources that he's arrested for terrorism, child abuse, drug trafficking (not providing data to prosecutors).
- Oras 2y agoIf it is an encrypted service, how would the company censor and tackle these issues? I’m asking from a technical standpoint.
- codedokode 2y agoTelegram has public and private groups. They probably want to jail him for not pre-moderating every posted message.
- Oras 2y agoThat’s my question, if messages are end to end encrypted then the company does not have access to censor, right?
- codedokode 2y agoMessages in groups are not E2E encrypted, especially in public groups where anyone can read them even without joining. However, anyone can report the message to moderators. The public groups are often limited (temporarily removed from search, temporarily or permanently banned) if they do too much violations.
- Gualdrapo 2y ago> However, anyone can report the message to moderators. Good luck with that. And that's a seriously big issue. Moderators (and "moderators" in Telegram mean an alleged team of people they hire to moderate all content in Telegram - if you report content, the group administrators won't even be notified about that so they can act by themselves first) in most cases won't do absolutely anything.
- yvino 2y agoon what charges ?
- twostorytower 2y agofor his failure to cooperate in an investigation of crimes perpetrated using the platform. It may be that he failed to comply with lawful subpoenas. That's what I read
- Terretta 2y agoKey points: - Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, was arrested in France after arriving from Azerbaijan. - Durov was detained at Le Bourget Airport by the Gendarmerie des Transports Aériens (GTA) due to a French warrant. - The warrant was issued on claims of Telegram’s lack of moderation and cooperation with law enforcement, making Durov complicit in crimes such as drug trafficking, pedophilia-related offenses, and fraud. - Durov’s arrest was contingent on him being on French territory, as he is listed in the FPR (wanted persons file). Unclear why he decided to land there. - Durov is now in custody and will face a judge, with potential charges including terrorism, drug offenses, complicity, fraud, money laundering, and pedophilia-related content. - Authorities believe Durov will likely be placed in pre-trial detention due to his substantial financial resources and perceived flight risk. - The arrest aims to pressure European countries to cooperate on law enforcement efforts against crimes facilitated through Telegram, particularly terrorism and organized crime.
- NoxiousPluK 2y agoThis news is also what is making Toncoin go down hard currently: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/toncoin/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/toncoin/
- codedokode 2y agoIf they want to arrest him for lack of pre-moderation, then it is ridiculous.
- earnesti 2y agoThey added this wallet feature with a lot of different cryptos, which implicates that they are also now providing maybe a financial service. The regulation with those is heavy.
- codedokode 2y agoTechnically crypto wallet is a third-party app and not a part of Telegram distribution.
- ivanmontillam 2y agoTelegram's @wallet is owned by Telegram itself. It's registered as a separate company, but they even share some office space.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- threeseed 2y agoIn almost all countries services like this are required to moderate. Has been this way for decades and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- IIAOPSW 2y ago[flagged]
- denysvitali 2y ago[flagged]
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y agoWhat would happen to the messenger? I have a lot of useful connections there. And using it to read HN.
- vessenes 2y agoNot clear right now if France thinks he was actively complicit with the four horsemen listed, or if just the act of running Telegram makes him complicit in their eyes, or something in the middle, e.g. they asked for help and Telegram turned them down. This will be an interesting case to watch -- I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort -- but generally my understanding is that harassment on border entry has been the order of the day, rather than arrests.
- chucke1992 2y ago> I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort But that's what exactly they want no? EU is literally implementing a regulation that will allow to "circumvent end-to-end encryption to address child sexual abuse material". I believe it failed to pass recently, but they will try again - and nothing stops countries to implement it independently. I think France is the one who was pushing for that in the first place.
- dijit 2y agoA handful of EU MEPs keep pushing backdoored encryption and it keeps getting veto’d. There are two legistive bodies in the EU, one is only allowed to propose law, the other is only allowed to vote on it. Lots of braindead laws get put to a vote, theres no requirement that they get through. I understand that raising the alarm is helpful, but it would be helpful if people took a second to understand how the EU works, the politicians involved and how their motions are perceived by the rest of parliament.
- arlort 2y ago3 actually, (the second body you described can be categorised as bicameral) Which would be pedantry if it weren't that one of the two chambers is much more in line with the former
- inglor_cz 2y agoChat Control isn't pushed by a "handful of EU MEPs", but the European Commission. Notably, it can be agreed upon in the EC using qualified majority, unilateral veto doesn't apply. The last time they tried (in June), the qualified majority wasn't reached, but the difference was slim.
- artembugara 2y agoAccording to this source he’s accused in non-cooperating. He’s not accused of terrorism, drug, or slaving directly. Very interesting to see where it will all go. I don’t understand how they’re going to convince French judges that he’s guilty for not being able to decrypt chats that he has no keys for…
- BoredPositron 2y agoAccording to which source?
- artembugara 2y agoThe one this HN post links to
- Kailhus 2y agoSee sibling comment for a more accurate description https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341848
- abcd_f 2y ago> According to this source he’s accused in non-cooperating. With the context that you omitted it makes more sense: Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable numbers, cryptocurrencies...) makes it an accomplice to drug trafficking, pedo-criminal offenses and swindling.
- artembugara 2y agoYes you’re correct.
- codedokode 2y agoThat's probably exaggeration or straight lie. There are open-source messengers who don't even require a phone number, and phone number is not legally required for registration in most countries (but, for example, in Russia you cannot signup users in a messenger without getting their phone number. So those open source messengers are technically outright illegal). As for moderation, any post in public or private groups can be reported to moderators. As for one-to-one chats, this might not work, but you should not be chatting with random people anyway.
- amai 2y agoMaybe related: „Putin and Telegram Founder Durov in Baku at the Same Time“ https://x.com/JAMnewsCaucasus/status/1825889800634733025 https://x.com/JAMnewsCaucasus/status/1825889800634733025
- alex00 2y ago[flagged]
- k1ndl1 2y agoTelegram is used heavily in both Ukraine & Russia. But I doubt it has anything to do with it.
- alex00 2y agoBetween Ukraine and Russia, Telegram is the only choice for Russia. Ukraine has many many other options. What else is there for Russians to communicate with the outer world?
- selivanovp 2y agoThe problem is not with communication with the outer world. The problem with other messengers is that everything you type there is monitored by CIA/NSA and Ukraine has access to this information. Telegram right now is the only secure messenger that doesn't leak them data on Russian citizens.
- evilfred 2y agoand the Russian govt has carte blanche access to Telegram. Russia invaded their sovereign neighbour Ukraine who the f cares about their forums for messaging. yawn.
- cpursley 2y agoAny source for this? He hasn’t lived in Russia for a decade. From what I understand the reason he left is because he refused to give them access. He’d prob be arrested there at the airport as well. I’m guessing you’re in SMS-land (USofA) where telegram (nor WhatsApp) never really caught on? Because telegram is HUGE outside of the US and China, including Ukraine.
- afroboy 2y ago[flagged]
- slinky6 2y ago[flagged]
- thamer 2y agoFrom the article, that's a massive pile of charges they're dumping onto him, all apparently because people use Telegram in ways the French state disapproves of? > Why was he under threat of a search warrant? > The justice department considers that the lack of moderation, lack of cooperation with law enforcement, and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) make him an accomplice to drug trafficking, pedo-criminal offenses and fraud.
- mdhb 2y agoA French citizen running a service in France is going to be subject to French laws and can expect to be arrested when they step into the country of France if they have charges pending. This isn’t some grand conspiracy theory.
- llm_trw 2y ago>A ~French~ Chinese citizen running a service in ~French~ Chinese is going to be subject to ~French~ Chinese laws and can expect to be arrested when they step into the country of ~French~ Chinese if they have charges pending. >This isn’t some grand conspiracy theory. Funny that when the wrong country does it it's tyranny. When a Western country does it it's the rule of law. Especially when they are the exact same thing.
- paganel 2y ago[flagged]
- chrisjj 2y ago> the recent military-like tribunals the Brits were very quick to put in place as a result of the protests there Citation needed. No mention seen in UK national press.
- curtisblaine 2y agohttps://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/15/severe-legal-crackdown-after-uk-riots_6715835_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/15/s... They convicted 54 people in two weeks. I guess "military like" means that trials and convictions were specifically expedited for right wing rioters on request of the neo elected prime minister.
- paganel 2y agoExactly. Similar to what used to happen a century or so ago in places like Sicily as a result of peasant/popular revolts [1]. 30 years or so later the whole liberal Italian political system would be sent to the garbage bins of history with not much of a fight and we know the rest. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasci_Siciliani https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasci_Siciliani
- chrisjj 2y agoNo "military-like tribunals" there. Just regular criminal courts.
- linotype 2y agoSo much for “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”. I wonder if this will help push founders more to the US.
- foverzar 2y agoUS is a no-go for a project like this. No large geopolitical power is.
- sneak 2y agoSignal has, it seems, successfully avoided being coerced by the USG, at least thus far.
- foverzar 2y agoIt literally has government funding.
- e12e 2y agoAs did (does?) TOR. I have the impression that the US intelligence services are always in an internal struggle - some parts wants and needs invisibility, deniability and secure communication - other part wants transparency for intelligence. Both realize that there is no such thing as a safe backdoor.
- foverzar 2y ago> As did (does?) TOR Yep, TOR is not a solution for hiding from western governments. That's why anything large enough out there gets wrecked as soon as someone makes an appropriate decision.
- kome 2y agothe fact that Signal had not those problems is highly suspicious, to say the least.
- whatnotests2 2y agoIs this real?
- wkat4242 2y agoYeah Reuters has it too: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-ceo-pavel-durov-arrested-france-tf1-tv-says-2024-08-24/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-... No source on what the warrant is about though. FWIW I really like Telegram and pay for it, I hope it will get cleared up soon.
- k1ndl1 2y agoDurov has a French passport, so he will be charged as a French citizen. What is weird is that he sure knew that he was on the watchlist in France, though he has chosen to go there. Why?
- artembugara 2y agoI don’t understand how his passport changes the whole thing? France can and will charge anyone on its territory no matter what passport you hold.
- martinbaun 2y agoUsually courts are a lot more lenient with foreign citizens. Try to get jailed in Mexico as an French citizen - pretty hard unless you do obvious bad stuff.
- raverbashing 2y agoFor minor stuff, sure For more complicated stuff, quite the opposite.
- qingcharles 2y agoFrom what I've seen, it's the opposite. Nobody wants an outsider coming into their territory and committing a crime. And it also makes you a flight risk, so that's going to factor badly into any pre-trial detention.
- lmm 2y ago> Nobody wants an outsider coming into their territory and committing a crime. Right but they don't want to deal with them either. They'll deport someone and ban them from entry (which can often be done essentially at will) rather than putting them through the whole legal process and potentially dealing with protests from their country of citizenship.
- 2y ago
- codedokode 2y agoThey claim that criminals use Telegram, but it is not the best choice for doing crime because Telegram requires a phone number to sign up, and a phone number can be linked to identity and full location history (telcos record full location history for every number). However, Telegram might be involved in cooperating with criminals; for example by not deleting channels related to protests against government at govt's request, by not blocking channels of allegedly spreading misinformation Western media like BBC. This is indeed illegal in Russia.
- rcxdude 2y agoAlso it's e2e is a bit of a joke because it's so easy to fall back to the non-e2e path (basically no-one uses it)
- mdhb 2y agoYou seem to be rather confused about the current thinking and capabilities of criminal groups. Requiring a phone number most certainly isn’t some fool proof method in the way you are claiming.
- 0x_rs 2y agoFraudsters have access to a near-infinite supply of phone numbers. It is only an annoyance for the average user trying to legitimately access a service and only helps prevent the smallest and least prepared criminals. But it's true that for 1:1 communication or not having to reach a broad audience there should be better alternatives.
- tokai 2y agoPrepaid sim cards, bought with cash by mules, make the phone number requirement completely inefficient.
- baybal2 2y ago[dead]
- byyll 2y agoThis has nothing to do with Russia.
- oligarchdemon 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lovegrenoble 2y ago[flagged]
- DonHopkins 2y agoBoo fucking hoo. Being opposed to fascist dictators invading peaceful countries isn't "Russophobia", it's rational and ethical. If Putin dropped dead and was replaced by sane people, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much so-called "Russophobia". Stop painting yourself and your corrupt murderous warmongering invading fascist dictator tyrants as the victims. It's totally your fault that reasonable peaceful people justifiably hate you, as long as you're invading Ukraine, threatening nuclear war, oppressing LGBTQ people, and bullshit like that.
- kkfx 2y agoMany people outside AND INSIDE France still have not much understood that the current government have transformed a step at a time the Republic in a ready-for-a-full-coup fascist state, for those who can read french I suggest trying: - https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf page 43 bottom, or searching "réquisition de toute personne" - https://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl22-569.pdf https://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl22-569.pdf with a good intervention from an LFI MEP, Ugo Bernalicis who is DEFINITIVELY worth to hear https://youtu.be/PDG9V01jPUs https://youtu.be/PDG9V01jPUs Just to cite the relatively recent more stunning move. But there was many in the less recent past (starting from police surveillance, impunity and so on) not counting the current delay to DENIED the last legislative elections results...
- aucisson_masque 2y agohttps://www.francetvinfo.fr/replay-radio/le-vrai-du-faux/le-vrai-du-faux-l-etat-s-octroie-t-il-de-nouveaux-pouvoirs-de-requisitions-grace-a-la-loi-de-programmation-militaire_5912645.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/replay-radio/le-vrai-du-faux/le-...
- kkfx 2y agoI've linked the laws actually existing, anyone can read what's in and take a personal conclusion. These laws are clearly a base for a coup, no matter how PR rhetoric can try to justify that.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mmsc 2y agoJust think: all the companies that do illegal shit and get slaps on the wrist with a few thousand/million dollar fines. That's the only "consequence" for the executives that blew up the economy in 2008, the politicians that are in cahoots with company executives to funnel money into their pockets, the companies that spy on their own employees without due diligence or cause, the producers of products that knowingly cause cancer, the producers of medicine that knowingly destroys lives, the decision-makers that destroy engineering standards resulting in airplanes falling from the skies with hundreds of helpless people being blown to pieces, and the companies that destroy the planet with actions that can never be reversed. And instead they arrest the CEO of a company that provides a mechanism for people to talk to one another.
- ProAm 2y agoWe can be honest and the government realizes that it's not just talking. At least for the conversations they are concerned about. *EDIT* I dont agree with it, but Ive seen governments do far worse with far less.
- codedokode 2y agoTelegram is not a police and not a court though; it doesn't need to search and identify illegal content. And how can you call something illegal without court's decision?
- rdmreader3319 2y agoI can assure you they are not concerned by illegal drugs and crime as every single french city is gangrened by drug dealers and thugs. But they really don't like free speech.
- ProAm 2y agoGovernments want control and intelligence. Im not saying the did this legally or valid like but I can see exactly why they did it. Same with Assange... The government was tired of dealing with his bs, legal or not.
- 2y ago
- ren_engineer 2y agothe EU is becoming a parody >we've got to save democracy by restricting free speech and enforcing laws and regulations created by unelected officials
- sunaookami 2y agoEver since von der Leyen became president. Typical for her since she also tried the same shit in Germany.
- andrepd 2y agoHah! Life would be great if the EU's problems started with von der Leyen
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoWhere did it start out of curiosity?
- Detrytus 2y agoWith its creation, by which I mean Lisbon Treaty. Before that EU was basically just a free trade zone, after Lisbon the eurocrats took over, trying to turn EU into socialist's version of heaven on Earth.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoDo you think individual countries can or will want to either limit the EU’s scope to make it far less invasive than today?
- throwaway48540 2y agoThey can't, not without the support of France and Germany
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- nine_k 2y agoThe detainment order was outstanding for some time, and Durov certainly knew that. Still he plainly landed in France and was detained. Why? My pet tinfoil-hat theory is that he decided that staying in a French prison is safer for him than being out in the open and get some polonium, or whatnot.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- alephnan 2y agoHe has a lavish lifestyle and France is the capital of luxury
- tw04 2y ago>and get some polonium Why would he get some polonium? There are endless official Russian state telegram channels. Putin clearly has no issue with it or he would have banned it.
- Brybry 2y agoThe Russian government did ban Telegram while also still using it (and then unbanned it). [1] Politics is complicated. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-telegram-ban-idUSKBN23P2FT/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-telegram-ban-idUSK...
- newsclues 2y ago[flagged]
- mc32 2y agoIt’ll be interesting to see if the likes of Marlinspike, Firefox, EFF, etc., rally to support this guy. It’s really chilling to see the steps EU gobs are taking against free speech. In some ways they seem more authoritarian than even China and Russia. It’s like “free world” is becoming a farce.
- jakeinspace 2y agoNot sure what they can do, he’s worth ten times what all those groups are together, so I doubt he’ll have an issue with legal costs.
- a0123 2y agoDurov has been shilling his crypto scams while shitting on all those services you're talking about (well, at least Signal) claiming they don't do anything for privacy. Considering how he's tarnished Signal, there is absolutely no reason for them or anyone else to back him up. What will be very funny is the fact that Telegram is pretty much not encrypted (yeah ok, "secret chats", whatever sure) and now that investigators probably have access to Durov's phone, that lack of encryption might come back to bite him in the ass. Can't wait to know what they find and if they do find something, it might be interesting to see if he finally changes his stance.
- foverzar 2y ago> well, at least Signal Basically only Signal + Whatsapp. > claiming they don't do anything for privacy. Well, Signal is kind of a scam in that regard.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- flumpcakes 2y agoThe quality of posts in this thread are unusually low for Hacker News. Is this place being brigaded? Extremely uncharitable readings and frankly conspiracy theories everywhere.
- paradox460 2y agoTrifecta of bad Internet discourse here. A Russian who runs a chat service that competes with inferior services beloved by nerds is arrested on nebulous charges related to his platform being somewhat censorship resistant. Beware ye who enter
- kitkat_new 2y agothis correlates with the telegram userbase
- dredmorbius 2y ago<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23486170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23486170> Email concerns to mods at hn@ycombinator.com Though yes, this thread is overall quite low quality. Sigh.
- dartharva 2y agoThis tends to happen whenever there is any tinge of geopolitics in the discussion. That subject has a remarkable ability of making monkeys out of people.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- wkat4242 2y agoEdit: Oops it was already posted, sorry. I should have known. I checked but I forgot to check the 'new' page :( My apologies. FWIW I really like Telegram, I hope it will get cleared up soon.
- lovegrenoble 2y agoAlready deleted... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341353
- enlyth 2y agoNot deleted, just suddenly demoted to the 4th page. It's that broken HN algorithm that randomly messes up the front page for no reason.
- okcorral 2y ago[flagged]
- lolinder 2y agoOtherwise known as the flame war detector, which does a decent job of keeping flame wars off the front page but occasionally has to be fixed by a mod when it kicks in incorrectly. Moderation is hard, and HN actually does a pretty good job all things considered. Edit: it's already back.
- perihelions 2y agoIt pains me to agree, but this is quite right: for every important developing story that gets erased like this, there's like 500 nonsense flamewars that guaranteed you don't want to read, that get erased by the same heuristic. It's genuinely tuned well. (I'll never agree with HN's title-editing bot though. That thing's cray).
- lolinder 2y ago
- vizzah 2y agoA most likely outcome now is that a deal will be made to avoid jail time and he'll let EU do the backdoors or whatever they were asking politely first. Telegram has also tried to distance itself from TON crypto token, but it is so obvious how it still serves the original Durov's vision and controlled by a team of founders (aka initial token holders), now proofing their stakes for a supposedly decentralized blockchain to operate. It's not a wise idea to run "uncensored" messenger where a lot of shit happens and also offer it's users built-in non-government-surveilled payment methods.
- codedokode 2y agoAre there clear and certain rules, that cannot be interpreted differently by different judges, about how you should run the messenger? For example, are you required to ask for a phone number and passport photo to sign up, etc? By "clear rules" I mean not something vague like "you should not cooperate with criminals" (does "criminals" include not yet convicted criminals? does it include Trump? what is "cooperate") or "you should not allow illegal content" (what is exact definition of "illegal"? how can a person declare some content "illegal" without going through the court?).
- seydor 2y agoIt's unlikely that EU has the capacity to install backdoors and to monitor them. Maybe a few individual states can sort-of do that, but not all, and most likely not brussels.
- sneak 2y agoSignal offers all of those things and the creators, developers, and operators are thus far unmolested. They have de-emphasized the built in token and payment features, and Mobilecoin has tanked in value, but it’s still there and still works and nobody has been even detained over it, much less prosecuted.
- martinbaun 2y agoAnother reason not to go to France. It was once such a beautiful country
- antibios 2y agoThere are many parts to government but the French are actually sponsors of matrix. So one would have believed that they agreed with secure communications. https://element.io/case-studies/tchap https://element.io/case-studies/tchap
- mynegation 2y agoAnd now this story has disappeared from the HN home page
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- malfist 2y agoIt's literally #2 right now
- felurx 2y agoNot directly related to the arrest, but to Durov: His Telegram channel is somewhat odd. It's a mix of what you'd expect (updates / general stuff about Telegram), some slightly weird stuff (highly praising countries he visited or talking about his oh-so-high-quality sperm and how he's the biological father of "over 100" kids), and then there's just shilling for some random watch-ads-to-get-coins things or whatever that totally aren't scams built on Telegram's new mini-app thing and TON (which is Telegram's cryptocurrency that they can't legally sell as theirs). You can take a look for yourself here: https://t.me/s/durov https://t.me/s/durov
- souvlakee 2y agoHe's an interesting but odd man. It's rare to see him fully dressed on his Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/durov https://www.instagram.com/durov. I expected him to remove his clothes during Carlson's interview, but he didn't.
- iscoelho 2y agoIt definitely takes effort to stay that fit. Nothing wrong with being proud of the way you look (:
- iscoelho 2y ago1) Updates/general makes sense as you say. 2) "Praising countries" aka focusing on increasing the reach of Telegram, similar to Zuckerberg with Facebook. 3) "biological father of "over 100" kids" is quite the mildly interesting fact. It's unsurprising for an individual in his position to be a little eccentric. 4) "shilling for some random watch-ads-to-get-coins" aka focusing on increasing engagement with the Telegram app ecosystem that directly benefits Telegram. All make sense to me.
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- 2y ago
- TacticalCoder 2y ago[flagged]
- theAkomolafe 2y agoThis is an insanely big developing story.
- deadmutex 2y ago> This is an insanely big developing story. For people in tech
- option 2y agoTelegram is used by hundreds of millions in Europe and Middle East
- fieryscribe 2y agoAnd East Asia, especially Hong Kong since 2019.
- deadmutex 2y agoYep, and I have yet to see evidence of this being a huge story for those people. He's no Messi or Bieber or Swift.
- foverzar 2y ago> I have yet to see evidence of this being a huge story for those people Can you honestly claim that you keep in touch with those people? I mean, this is an english-speaking us-centric forum. It is somewhat atypical for people here to actually know what happens outside this bubble.
- deadmutex 2y ago> Can you honestly claim that you keep in touch with those people? Nope, but maybe the data below can shed some light on it: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Messi,Swift,durov&hl=en https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...
- 2y ago
- okcorral 2y ago[flagged]
- EugeneOZ 2y ago3 of his kids are in Moscow. Under Putin’s control. Pavel Durov tries to play the “victim” to create a legitimate image for himself and Telegram.
- dmitry3l 2y ago[flagged]
- boutique 2y agoSelf-admittedly he has over 100 children. OTOH, Telegram's DCs are in: the US, the Netherlands and in Singapore [0] and he was just arrested in the EU. So I don't follow how you've made a connection between Putin and (Putin's?) "(fake?) victim" Durov. [0] https://docs.pyrogram.org/faq/what-are-the-ip-addresses-of-telegram-data-centers https://docs.pyrogram.org/faq/what-are-the-ip-addresses-of-t...
- byyll 2y agoJust russophobia.
- evilfred 2y agotelegram is compromised by Russia https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
- sunaookami 2y ago[flagged]
- stiltzkin 2y agoAll U.S. messaging apps are compromised by U.S. authorities.
- avodonosov 2y ago"одна баба сказала" (c) Does this Matsapulina realize, that when you install Telegram on new phone, you just need to confirm the phone number and all your chats are restored on that new device? So for authorities to read her chats it's just a matter of intersepting an SMS with the confirmation code? Of course, I suggest everyone to assume the software they use may be compromized. But let's not post trash articles. In the article's own words, "conspiracy theories, paranoia, and speculation".
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- heraldgeezer 2y agoWhat about Signal? What about Messenger and Whatsapp, also end-to-end encrypted? Will they be arrested? Is this the end of end-to-end encryption chats?
- stiltzkin 2y agoBecause they larp as full privacy.
- kome 2y agothat's the real answer.
- NoxiousPluK 2y agoTelegram is not E2EE (with the exception of phone-only 1-on-1 Secret Chats, which are also questionable security-wise). Telegram has access to everything ever shared on their services, even if users delete it. Signal by design can't moderate their service. Telegram by design has full access, but doesn't act on it.
- heraldgeezer 2y agoYes, I know this, as I have said in another comment. Sorry. Me: >Also Telegram is not E2E by default. You need to activate it per chat. By default and in groups it is only server encrypted. But if it was fully E2EE, would this arrest not have happened?
- maqp 2y agoMost likely not, because Telegram wouldn't be a massive hosting platform for CSAM.
- kitkat_new 2y agotelegram isn't e2ee
- 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- heraldgeezer 2y agoEU themselves recommend Signal. That is even stronger as it is end-to-end encrypted by default. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-to-staff-switch-to-signal-messaging-app/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-to-staff-switc... >The European Commission has told its staff to start using Signal, an end-to-end-encrypted messaging app, in a push to increase the security of its communications.
- bigbones 2y agoExcept for any media you post which end up as a unique key behind CloudFlare or Google Cloud load balancers. They may not reveal your chats, but they certainly export your metadata (i.e. list of devices fetching and putting a key) to the worst possible parties
- compiler1410 2y agoFrom my experience those charges are valid and well deserved. As a Telegram user since 2015, I've spent 2 years actively reporting groups and individuals in posession of explicit materials involving children and animals. Some of my friends have also joined me in this effort. Unfortunately, Telegram never banned any of those groups and individuals which is a textbook case of not only being an accessory to crime, but also being complicit in letting the crime go on.
- compiler1410 2y agoI don't understand why this comment is being downvoted. You guys are upset that I was trying to get pedos and zoos banned? You support what they're doing?
- ein0p 2y ago"You'll wear yourselves out swallowing dust, running around the courts to unblock the assets." (c) Vladimir Putin when persuading Russian oligarchs to repatriate their wealth. Turns out he was right.
- nla 2y ago[flagged]
- gck1 2y agoFunny story - there were some protests in my country some months ago. We're a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a dictatorship. During the protests, the government used masked 'civilians,' or what you'd call 'titushkis,' to beat up activists at their home addresses or elsewhere in public. We were also getting calls from fake numbers on our personal numbers with threats. A channel was created on Telegram by a government propaganda journalist, where they basically dox every activist, posting their addresses, phone numbers, and other private details, at times when these details are actively used for beating people to near death. That's the only content that Telegram channel produces. I was one of the people whose details were posted on that channel. My phone number, home address, etc., were posted there, along with the private details of tens of others. I contacted Telegram support multiple times, we mass reported the channel - not once have I gotten an answer, and the entire channel is still up, for nearly 4 months. So, hearing that he's arrested for lack of moderation? Good. I'm very happy. Hope he learns a lesson. EDIT: Country is Georgia
- Svoka 2y agoUnfortunately telegram actively engaging with russian govenment. Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool itself.
- foverzar 2y ago> Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool itself. How can it possibly be "a propaganda tool" when it has no feed, no algorithms, no suggestions or recommendations? You only get sources you've willingly subscribed to, nothing else. This reads as such a cope.
- Svoka 2y agoTelegram has also absolutely no filters, so it can be filled with lies and propaganda without any response from the platform, except, only if it is russian government making requests. Your responses remind me of russian bot playbooks, tbh. Are you one?
- vzaliva 2y agoWell, this is the consequence of Telegram's poor privacy choices. Most chats are not end-to-end encrypted, and they could have access to their content. This makes them liable when they refuse governments' requests for such information. It also raises the question of whether they have given such access to other governments like Russia (coincidentally, Durov was in Baku at the same time Putin was visiting, and there is speculation that they may have met). In contrast, Signal does not have access to any chats or user information (except the timestamp of when users last logged in) and could not be forced to wiretap.
- tryauuum 2y ago> This makes them liable when they refuse governments' requests for such information If all the chats are e2e encrypted then the government will arrest you for designing chats in such a way that a backdoor is impossible Like we say in Russia, "as long as we have a man we can find a law to imprison him"
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago>> could not be forced to wiretap Couldn't they just quietly release an update, under a threat of a 20y jail time, or just $5 wrench? Any centralized solution is vulnerable. The only real solution is open source serverless p2p network.
- oska 2y ago
- qingcharles 2y agoThey went full Ulbricht on him: terrorism, drugs, fraud, money laundering, piracy and involvement with child exploitation.
- mvdtnz 2y ago"Full Ulbricht" is quite a leading term. You could just as well say "full Bankman-Fried". From my reading it sounds like the man is as guilty as sin and knows it.
- qingcharles 2y agoI can see your point. I should qualify that -- my comparison was just on the indictment only, in that they threw the crimes of every user into his indictment, like they did with Ulbricht.
- sergiotapia 2y agoI'm already never travelling to England. Will I also add France to that list? We'll see.
- cabirum 2y agoThe "free world" took a new hostage.
- compiler-devel 2y agoIndeed. I wouldn't travel to France, the UK, or any other oppressive regime in these times.
- intalentive 2y agoIt’s like any other country: the United States, Russia, China, North Korea or Iran. Don’t cross the people in charge, and you will be fine.
- compiler-devel 2y agoLooks like I need to add Denmark to my list: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41356248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41356248
- dang 2y agoWe changed the URL from https://www.tf1info.fr/justice-faits-divers/info-tf1-lci-le-fondateur-et-pdg-de-la-messagerie-cryptee-telegram-interpelle-en-france-2316072.html https://www.tf1info.fr/justice-faits-divers/info-tf1-lci-le-... to an article in English. If there's a better article in English, we can change it again.
- jfim 2y agoOne detail that's missing from the English article is why he got arrested. The French article mentions: Why was he under threat of a search warrant? The Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable numbers, cryptocurrencies...) makes him an accomplice to drug trafficking, child-crime offenses and swindling.
- squidbeak 2y ago> TF1 and BFM both said the investigation was focused on a lack of moderators on Telegram, and that police considered that this situation allowed criminal activity to go on undeterred on the messaging app. (From the reuters link)
- nextos 2y agoDoes this mean that according to EU, or France, E2E-encrypted platforms need to "cooperate" (provide backdoors)? Or does it refer to public channels only?
- mikae1 2y ago> Does this mean that according to EU, or France, E2E-encrypted platforms need to "cooperate" (provide backdoors)? No, not yet. > Or does it refer to public channels only? On Telegram channels and groups are not E2EE. I'd assume that's were most of the crap is spread.
- tillulen 2y agoPrivate messages aren’t end-to-end encrypted either. The so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted but are a major pain to use. I doubt that feature sees much use.
- sega_sai 2y agoA bunch of people in comments here seem to misunderstand what telegram is. It is not just a messaging app, it is essentially a platform like twitter, with channels, hundreds of thousands of subscribers to those. While I fully support E2EE communication with no back-doors, I think it is perfectly fair for governments to have some control to take down large channels that are clearly against the law. I do not know the true cause for the arrest, but I hope it is because of the latter not the former.
- vhiremath4 2y agoAh very interesting. Thanks for making that distinction! To me, I’m wondering at what critical mass of people should you need to provide a back door to the government? Is it 2? 3? 100? 1000? Are the number of people the right indicator here? Genuinely curious of people’s thoughts. I haven’t though too deeply about this.
- stogot 2y agoYou seem to assume there is a “need” to backdoor the people’s communication. Liberty of the people assumes there is not a need nor a right of the State to do so
- eimrine 2y agoNo that was sarcasm to GP.
- kitkat_new 2y agowho is talking about backdoors? the chats are public
- aa_is_op 2y agoYeah. Basically Telegram is the new dark web, but for people to dumb to understand that it logs everything.
- sega_sai 2y agoThere is no need for backdoor anything, when there are public channels. I do not know the specifics of French case though, so I don't know if their case is about those or some private chats.
- sourraspberry 2y agoPeople comparing to WhatsApp/Signal etc. are missing the point. The lack of E2EE is actually what has got Telegram in trouble. The same stuff that happens on Telegram also happens on WhatsApp and Signal - but because it's E2EE, it's harder for the police to find it, and when they do find it, WhatsApp and Signal have no way to comply - they can't see the chats! That said, they will provide details to LE that they do have access to (e.g. metadata) - of which WhatsApp holds a lot more. In Telegrams case with public groups sharing illegal content out in the open - this is viewable to LE and they request logs from Telegram for their investigations. This stuff is publicly viewable on and to Telegram. Telegram can remove it. Telegram can provide chat logs to LE - but they refuse to. This is why they're in trouble. Moral of the story - if you want to start an internet service - you either go E2EE no knowledge, or you moderate your shit and cooperate with LE, you can't avoid doing the latter unless you're doing the former.
- hnfong 2y agoWhich law enforcement? I've always been under the impression that as long as your country has your back, you can refuse law enforcement requests claiming their government or their laws are bad so you don't have to comply.
- 3np 2y agoDoes not really work out that well when you're a citizen of the complaining country and fly in to visit with an arrest warrant out...
- megous 2y agoCoincidentally or not, yesterday there was another sweeping ban of various Palestine related channels on Telegram across EU: https://x.com/SamidounPP/status/1827062901364208099 https://x.com/SamidounPP/status/1827062901364208099 So not sure what's the non-cooperating about banning "terrorist" content is about, since various info channels definitely were getting blocked on telegram in EU over the last year. I can't for the life of me as an EU "citizen" even figure out who asks for these bans on behalf of the EU. Kinda doubt it's someone in my country, because it's reported as EU wide ban in this case. Maybe it's done by some overbearing country on this particular topic, like Germany, and Telegram just blocked it EU wide, for some reason.
- pizzafeelsright 2y agoUntil the phone number is disconnected completely from the account I am certain these message services are either lying or honeypots. You can have end to end encryption without a phone number. To require it means you're opening up possibilities of State and location tracking.
- grishka 2y agoTelegram has anonymous +888 "phone numbers" that exist on the TON blockchain as NFTs.
- pizzafeelsright 2y agoEntirely trackable
- nurumaik 2y agohow? you can use tor for the entire process of getting and using the number
- warlord2 2y ago[flagged]
- ineedaj0b 2y agoour open internet will shut around the world in the coming 5-15 years. maybe the US keeps theirs open, but the EU is not looking good.
- dmix 2y agoThe EU will be first of the west no doubt. Brussels has that technocratic total control thing which runs deep. Maybe UK, they started doing overnight SWAT raids over mean tweets a decade ago and these days it seems to just be a normal accepted thing there.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- vwkd 2y agohttps://x.com/christogrozev/status/1827450631462048023 https://x.com/christogrozev/status/1827450631462048023 > I wonder what caught up with him first: the undisturbed sale of hard drugs vIa telegram, or the undisturbed recruitment of freelancers for GRU's terrorist attacks across Europe. Seems there could be some truth to the accusations.
- codedokode 2y agoCannot terrorist-freelancers (whatever that means) be recruited with Element, Signal, VK or email on Yandex?
- kelnos 2y agoSure, but if the people who run those services are responsive to law enforcement requests about that behavior, the law is usually satisfied. Telegram's policy is apparently to not moderate anything, and ignore law enforcement requests. I'm not saying Telegram is right or wrong here, just that their behavior may not be legal in places like France.
- kjkjadksj 2y agoWhat about exchanging paper one time pads? We ought to go after the paper mill for not securing their product by this logic.
- LtWorf 2y agoYes but those are probably backdoored by USA so ok.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pajeets 2y agoTelegram and cryptocurrency has single handedly responsible for the recent drug epidemic, sex blackmail rings in South Korea. Cant say I have good things to say about Telegram founders and operators. Its not some innocent "free speech" messenger app, its sinister
- jasonvorhe 2y agoUse the CEO as lever to gain control over a Russian controlled medium used to deliver unfiltered information about a lot of ongoing conflicts right now. Can't have that when you're hell bent on war.
- topspin 2y ago> Russian controlled medium There are a large number of highly active Ukrainian channels on Telegram, all about as anti-Russian as you would expect. There are Ukrainian government ministers operating channels on Telegram. How does that occur on a "Russian controlled medium?" I don't speak either Russian or Ukrainian. I know none of these channel operators. Yet I've been granted approval on a number of "private" Ukrainian channels. Certainly a Russian could as well. Why wouldn't Russia's state actors, given that they enjoy "control" of the medium, shut it all down?
- entropyneur 2y agoRussian-controlled is an overstatment, but it's definitely Russian-influenced. There seems to have been some kind of balance - Durov allowed the Russians some limited control in exchange for being allowed to operate in Russia. The publicly visible manifestation of this deal was, for instance, the ban on "Путь домой" (Way home) channel where the wifes of mobilized men organized their movement. I'm not stating this necessarily happened as a result of some direct negotiations - maybe Durov just intuitively probed "the red lines", who knows.
- topspin 2y agoПуть домой is an active channel. It has 53,690 subscribers. There is a "FAKE" label (first time I've seen that...) and an associated warning: "Warning: Many users report that this account impersonates a famous person or organisation[sic]." There are regular posts, the most recent being 31 minutes ago. Translating about 10 of them, I see a many parents complaining about the treatment of conscripts.
- 2y ago
- aa_is_op 2y agoFinally! This guy's site is the new home of CSAM and revenge porn. Hope he rots in jail
- nullorempty 2y agoThey are trying to fight child abuse but they are not releasing Epstein client list. Go figure. He'll make a deal.
- fragmede 2y agowho's "they"?
- dusk_horizon 2y agoThe funniest thing is Russia’s evil government allowed Durov to leave motherland with money, but democratic France threw him in a jail. Why does he need France citizenship in the first place? He could use his Saint Kitts and Nevis passport to travel the world.
- sva_ 2y agoIt's all just speculation here. Maybe the French gov knows some stuff we don't. I always found that guy's story of living 'in exile' from Russia a bit suspect. And now Russian government officials are calling for his release. Need more information to make any kind of judgement. What I'm pretty sure of now is that this probably has nothing to do with encryption.
- api 2y agoTelegram encryption is off by default and is a joke compared to Signal and others. This has nothing to do with encryption. I could list a dozen E2E encrypted things in common use that are all legal and online. It has nothing to do with ordinary sorts of “bad” content either like hate speech or crypto scams or whatever. All of that can be found in abundance in many places, all of which are still online. This is about something else. Note the standard cast of characters with certain well known alignments rushing out to defend him. My top guess is direct involvement in scams, money laundering, CSAM, etc. I mean direct participation, not just running a chat used by others for these things. My second guess is the upcoming election. Telegram was a big vector for coordinating the January 6th riots. Maybe there’s a network being taken down here. Don’t know, will have to wait and see.
- maxo133 2y agoCEO getting arrested does not mean telegram will go down. Direct involvement with scams? You got to be kidding me. This guy is worth 15 billion USD, he does need to do anything. It's about lack of cooperation in censoring content.
- Vegenoid 2y ago> Direct involvement with scams? You got to be kidding me. This guy is worth 15 billion USD, he does need to do anything. I have no knowledge about this and make no assumptions about whether or not he is involved in any kind of financial misconduct - but there are many cases of very rich people doing risky and illegal things to further grow their wealth, despite already having more than enough money.
- wnevets 2y agoI wonder if this is related to Russia having access to telegram
- codedokode 2y agoInteresting note: Durov was flying to France from Azerbaijan where he was staying at the same time when Putin visited the country. There are rumours that Durov wanted to meet with Putin but he allegedly refused [1]. Those rumours are based on a publication of a Russian Telegram channel allegedly related to law enforcement agencies and have no other confirmation. [1] https://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pavel-durov-in-baku-783760 https://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pave...
- dev1ycan 2y agoThis is very clearly the reason why I trust Telegram 100 times more than Signal. Signal conveniently appeared when Telegram became popular. Now that they couldn't stop Telegram they're actively trying to take it down or gain control over it.
- maqp 2y agoYes let's infer app security from 5D-chess of spy novel grade news analysis, instead of reading source code. Telegram: client source code shows e.g. all group messages are always shared to the company Signal: client source code shows end-to-end encryption is always on for every message. You pretending reality isn't real is really telling. Also Telegram conveniently appeared when WhatsApp became popular and it was the spitting image of WA back then. Typical Russian IT economy where all they know is how to copy. First Durov copied FB to VKontakte, then he copied WA to TG.
- seydor 2y agoIt was bound to happen at some point. Is france one of the better or worse places for him to be arrested?
- subsection1h 2y agothomassmith65 (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=thomassmith65 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=thomassmith65) wrote: > Of course he is complicit. I imagine most people in tech would argue the good outweighs the bad, but to provide E2EE without any backdoor is to turn a blind eye to the horrendous things for which some people will use it. > There has been a constant in the tech community, since forever, of stupid idealism. For example, I remember the apoplexy when Napster had to stop facilitating mass piracy. Yeah, what a head-scratcher that was. And now the tech community has convinced itself that E2EE without a backdoor is some viable. Your neighbors won't consider the overall harms worth the benefits, and neither will their governments. PGP is more than 30 years old. What do you mean by "now the tech community has convinced itself that E2EE without a backdoor is some viable"? What is "now"?
- ranndino 2y agoPreposterous accusations! It's like arresting a CEO of a phone manufacturing company because phones are sometimes used for nefarious activities.
- janmo 2y agoThe reason is clear. He wasn't sharing any personal and message data from its users with intelligence agencies and law enforcement. Even ProtonMail which wrongly claims to be a privacy safe heaven does so!
- lxgr 2y agoUgh… > Telegram offers end-to-end encrypted messaging […] Yes, just like McDonalds offers salads and other healthy food options.
- throwaway290 2y agoUnderrated analogy I don't know anyone who uses TG "secret chats". (I tried to convert one friend but then there was some buggy stuff that also lost us long chat history so we reverted)
- tryauuum 2y agoSad story I use a single secret chat, probably because I was conditioned by the early https era to like the green lock symbol
- throwaway290 2y agoI use other chat clients. Encryption is by default and no clumsy UI or lost chats yet. Proves it's possible if TG really cared;)
- twelve40 2y agoTelegram has an amazingly fresh UI/UX and interesting channels unlike the ad-ridden, antiquated, repulsive, greedy Facebook or Instagram that hammer you with "recommended posts" and ads until you turn blue in the face. But, ultimately it's just a form of entertainment, so it's ok for it to go. There are other messengers and will be other content platforms. Pavel is smart but somehow completely failed to realize that if your life and your multi-billion-dollar business depends on Europe, you need to shut up and do what they tell you, because you have a lot to lose.
- lifeline82 2y ago[dead]
- jongjong 2y agoI can't make sense of how such people were able to get preferential treatment from governments and/or the media to the extent that their apps were able to get so much attention and traction to begin with, and yet the same government-media complex turns on them later for obscure reasons. At this stage, It seems like all these celebrity tech billionaires are government spies or working with intelligence agencies and are being persecuted for ceasing to play ball. Like there was some kind of deal where some elite group told them; we'll let your app gain traction but then you'll do everything we tell you, or else... I just can't make sense of these serial entrepreneurs otherwise. Thousands of similar apps were launched which were the same or better than those ones. Why were these ones allowed to gain traction? Why these people were chosen? Whenever I've met people who've had success in tech, it was clear that there were some weird dynamics behind the scenes which made them act in ways which were highly counter-intuitive and often involved sabotaging their own projects in some ways.
- f6v 2y agoFirst mistake: move to the EU and get French citizenship. You can’t have an asset that’s critical to some of the military operations in the largest European armed conflict and reside in the EU. Should have stayed in Dubai.
- hcfman 2y agoThe people behind the "Think of the children" type argument for interception expect people to implicitly understand that. By the same token, I would expect people to implicitly understand what with great powers needs great accountability. However... the same governments, and here I'm talking primarily about the one I know the Netherlands, has absolutely ZERO accountability against severe human rights abuses. You will get absolutely nowhere trying to hold government abuse accountable. In the Netherlands, it took around 25,000 victims before any kind of traction was gained and primarily due to one politician, Peter Omzigt. And others turned against him. Even now, you have princess Laurentien coming under heavy fire for trying to help the victims of the government abuse here. So infite powers and less than zero accountability? No thanks. It's actually less than ZERO accountability because attempting to hold someone accountable will bring you under attack.
- dmnmnm 2y ago> The people behind the "Think of the children" type argument for interception expect people to implicitly understand that. You don't even need to go as far as to talk about government lack of accountability for their own. The French government has shown numerous times they don't care about that, anyway. We protected actual pedophiles slash rapists like Roman Polanski from being judged for crimes they committed in other countries (in this case, the US) but we are to arrest the man behind telegram because think of the children? does that compute? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Polanski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Polanski > In 1977, Polanski was arrested for drugging and raping a 13-year-old girl. He pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of unlawful sex with a minor in exchange for a probation-only sentence. The night before his sentencing hearing in 1978, he learned that the judge would likely reject the proffered plea bargain, so he fled the U.S. to Europe, where he continued his career. He remains a fugitive from the U.S. justice system ""Justice"" is a very relative thing. The western democracies want you to believe it's fair. Ha. Ha.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y agoInstalled Element on my phone and asked my contacts to do the same, just in case TG dies. Few of them did. It works just fine for texts, photos, small videos. Certainly not as fast or feature rich as TG, but good enough. Might spring up my own server if need be. Looks like a better alternative to all that centralized drek.
- gmerc 2y agoThe only lesson Silicon Valley will take is personal responsibility. Fines just hit the shield that’s the shareholders wallet which means nothing in most of the power structures popular with tech companies. Throwing these people to jail horner, preventing them from wine and dine in destinations they actually want to go to, that puts a price they have to pay personally. We need to do more of that.
- rldjbpin 2y agovery interesting past few days for people running internet services. first kim then pavel. seems like the prosecutorial, sacrificial lambs in internet platform space are those who are big enough to afford private jets but not too big to become faceless. hope he has a decent judicial insurance in place.
- hnpolicestate 2y agoIt's hard to respond to some of the commentary here. We truly exist mentally on different planets. The West wants Telegram destroyed because the platform permits the sharing of information and ideas that are in opposition to Western domestic and foreign policy(Israel, Ukraine, China etc). This is in addition to the West not having a backdoor to Telegram and not having it's servers on Western soil. Why do you want your country to control what you can see, read or say? Why do you want your country to have access to your private thoughts and opinions? Stop being a coward and fight this fascist overreach. And spite yourself if you support it.
- unsupp0rted 2y ago> Why do you want your country to control what you can see, read or say? No no, I want my country to control what other people can see, read or say. Not me: I'm a good person.
- sundaysnail 2y ago[dead]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- o999 2y ago#FreeDurov
- sundaysnail 2y agoI have deleted Telegram for now because I don't want to be associated with international terrorism. These are serious accusations and I expect that Pavel won't live long enough to defend himself in a court.
- oloila 2y agoHe is also United Arab Emirates citizen. So it's safer to live in UAE, than to be a citizen of free West :D
- hkpack 2y agoOf course, if you involved in crimes in free west, it is better to live outside of it. North Koreans doing crimes in US are also very safe. Free - doesn’t mean do whatever you want.
- oloila 2y agoTo be involved in crimes in the nutshell: You provide exactly as much information as required by law. If EU law were not followed, Telegram would simply not be in the Google and Apple stores.
- intalentive 2y agoA man in the UK was given 2 years in prison for putting up stickers. Peaceful protesters in Canada had their bank accounts frozen. “Liberal democracy” my ass, the West is a police state. Carl Schmitt was right.
- tomohawk 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- arctics 2y agoFacebook has many illicit groups and Mark Zuckerberg was never charged with anything. I assume this is more related to privacy where US government has backdoor to Facebook while doesn't have one to Telegram.
- lxgr 2y ago> Facebook has many illicit groups and Mark Zuckerberg was never charged with anything. Maybe because their legal compliance strategy is something other than "we will only, and only possibly, comply with law enforcement requests if it concerns terrorism"? To quote Telegram's from https://telegram.org/privacy https://telegram.org/privacy: > If Telegram receives a court order that confirms you're a terror suspect, we may disclose your IP address and phone number to the relevant authorities. So far, this has never happened. When it does, we will include it in a semiannual transparency report published at: https://t.me/transparency https://t.me/transparency.
- bcherny 2y agoFB actively takes down groups and blocks users that (1) break FB’s community standards or (2) do really bad stuff (share child porn, recruit terrorists, etc.). There are manual and automated ways to do this. Users have a way to report bad stuff to FB and to group admins, and FB has a way to send really bad stuff to authorities when complying with a warrant. IIRC the majority of Meta’s employees (tens of thousands of people) work on these safety systems. So yeah, Meta takes it really seriously. It doesn’t work perfectly because the scale is mind-boggling, but it’s probably the best system of this kind at this scale, and it is constantly being evaluated, red teamed, and improved. Source: I used to work on FB Groups.
- nis0s 2y agoI don’t know how much this founder is personally complicit in any of the charges brought against him, but if he’s just being held accountable for running a service where others did nefarious things, then this should be a chilling effect for all founders. Why would anyone want to innovate and develop privacy technologies if this is what happens? So, your best bet is to work with government agencies if you want to work on this tech? What if the government isn’t one you agree with? No one has good answers for these, but criminals aren’t the only ones who need to use privacy-preserving tech.
- nephanth 2y agoTo clarify: According to the TF1 link, the charges being brought against him are 1. No moderation and refusal to cooperate with government forces on a bunch of cases (what you are describing) 2. Tools allegedly catering to criminality (burner phone numbers, cryptocurrency transactions...) Note that for now, no judgement has taken place yet. So none of this has been determined by the judicial system to be illegal.
- craignatic 2y agoI read the same head line for times goddammit
- Peteragain 2y agoMusk and Durov share views on privacy. If the West did the same to Musk, he'd move SpaceX to Russia in the blink of an eye and Tesla to China. Musk is safe because he is the embodiment of the American dream of American superiority. NASA and Boeing: yesterday's heros. This action is not 'rule of law' - don't bother trying to figure it out - it is just politically motivated. No discussion required. .. in my opinion.