28 ms·

All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

1446 points by ramonga 6mo ago

PaulKeeble 6mo ago
Batteries have been used as part of planned obsolescence for too long and a whole small business industry of replacing phone batteries has appeared because of it. Next the EU are going to have to address security patches because its another aspect being used to sell new phones.
- thaumasiotes 6mo ago
  > Batteries have been used as part of planned obsol[esc]ence for too long and a whole small business industry of replacing phone batteries has appeared because of it. Note that early phones had replaceable batteries and it was later phones that dropped that feature. The idea wasn't that making the phone impossible to open would compel people to replace their phone faster; it was that given that people didn't keep their phones long enough to wear out the battery, there was no need to make the battery accessible.
  - haritha-j 6mo ago
    This might be partially true, but making them inacessible is still a great way approach to planned obsolescence and there's no way this was not part of the motivation. The fact that an entire industry exists to provide replacement batteries is proof of this, as is the fact that Apple offers a £100 battery replacement. They also replace the batteries of all refurbished models they sell, which again wouldn't be necessary if battery life wasn't a concern over the useful life of a phone. Secondly, what you said may have been true in the past, when smartphones were rapidly evolving and upgrade cycles were short, but people are holding on to their devices for longer now, so its possible its becoming a problem again.
  - hgoel 6mo ago
    Upgrade cycles have slowed down in recent years, the improvements are relatively incremental nowadays. Screens, durability, processors, storage sizes, cameras, even battery life are okay-ish and aren't improving quickly enough to justify the same upgrade rate. Foldables are basically the only big innovation in recent years, but are still a little too fragile and expensive. This is also reflected in the increasing support durations from major manufacturers.
  - darkwater 6mo ago
    That was true 15-20 years ago. Nowadays changing the phone is basically because: 1) battery dying / not lasting enough 2) shattered glasses whose replacement costs 35-40% of the cost of the phone new (for budget/mid-range phones, not everybody has iPhones) distant 3rd) not enough free internal storage
    - yangm97 6mo ago
      Unrelated note but, cheap/midrange phones are a scam, you almost always get better value purchasing a second hand premium one.
      - NoGravitas 6mo ago
        Eh, I don't find my Pixel 8 to be notably better in any way that I notice or care about than the Moto G that it replaced, except for the fact that it runs GrapheneOS.
      - aembleton 6mo ago
        How is buying a midrange phone new a scam? Just because a second hand premium one is better value (assuming you don't place any value on being brand new). You buy it knowing full well that it isn't a premium device but most people don't need a premium device. Are non-premium new cars a scam too?
        garbagewoman 6mo ago
        How is it not a scam?
        aembleton 6mo ago
        It is clear what you are buying
    - infecto 6mo ago
      Batteries are generally a cheap fix from third party stores. If you wanted to keep the phone why not spend the small dollars and just replace the battery?
  - stavros 6mo ago
    This was true back when Moore's law was the driver of obsolescence. You bought a new phone every year simply because next year's phone was twice as fast. Now that this doesn't happen, the driver of obsolescence is the battery, which is much less defensible because you can swap it much more easily than "the whole internals of the phone".
    - ButlerianJihad 6mo ago
      [dead]
  - detourdog 6mo ago
    Batteries on early cell phones needed to be replaced multiple times a day. I remember talk time of like 10 minutes on my motorola StarTec.
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      1996, for anyone else wondering Not sure how comparable that is when considering that the devices are also commonly required as ticket on public transport with no offline fallback (going so far as to include animations on the screen so you can't send a screenshot to a friend or print it out -- no, I have no idea why they think you can't send a video to a friend). Having 10 minutes of use time is simply not on the table, and GP was probably not talking about that class of phones (pre-"smart" phone) in the first place
      - detourdog 6mo ago
        https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-power-reserve-sec90cd29d1f/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-...
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
        Aachen 6mo ago
        ok? If it dies after 10 minutes and then lets you use a select number of compatible smartcards for another 5, that's not quite the level I think people are talking about here
        detourdog 6mo ago
        If running out of power is super critical carrying a power pack is just as simple as replacement battery. It also more generally useful as it can charge lots devices other then phones. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/external-battery-packs/usb-c-portable-chargers-power-banks/pcmcat1706299718467.c?id=pcmcat1706299718467 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/external-battery-packs/usb-c-po...
  - m-schuetz 6mo ago
    Nowadays batteries seem to be doing pretty good, though. I've got a galax s20 fe, and the battery is still fine after 5 years.
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      Nice! As a heads up, don't be tempted to replace the battery via a third party if the Samsung battery ever stops meeting expectations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834810
- wasmitnetzen 6mo ago
  The EU already requires 5 years of patches since last year. Motorola thinks they have found a loophole, so there are still some, ahem, patches needed to the law.
  - Aachen 6mo ago
    Do you have more info about this? I recommended Motorola phones to people based on a combination of price, their needs, and expected longevity (at least 5y now with the new update and replacement part requirements). If that's not the case then I want to update my recommendations
    - oblio 6mo ago
      https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules-durable-energy-efficient-and-repairable-smartphones-and-tablets-start-applying-2025-06-20_en https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules...
      - catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
        motorolanis not mentioned there
        oblio 6mo ago
        No company is mentioned there...
      - Aachen 6mo ago
        I don't see the word loophole on that page. Would there's no way the EU will provide that information so I'm not going to comb through that page looking for, and speculating on, what GP could possibly have meant... Could you be anymore specific about what part of this is the loophole that Motorola allegedly found?
        oblio 6mo ago
- IMTDb 6mo ago
  I have found out that the main phone providers (Apple, Google, Samsung) have extremely long support period. I really don't get the "planned obsolescence" thing. As an example, in Jan 2026, Apple published iOS 12.5.8 which provides updates for iPhone 5s which released in Sept 2013. That's 12.5 years ago. The equivalent would be to connect to the internet using ADSL in Jan 2000 with your IBM PS/2 rocking in intel 8086, 512 kb of RAM and expecting an update for your DOS operating system.
  - gruez 6mo ago
    >As an example, in Jan 2026, Apple published iOS 12.5.8 which provides updates for iPhone 5s which released in Sept 2013. That's 12.5 years ago. The equivalent would be to connect to the internet using ADSL in Jan 2000 with your IBM PS/2 rocking in intel 8086, 512 kb of RAM and expecting an update for your DOS operating system. The updates for ios 12 are all security updates, not feature updates, so your comparison to "connect to the internet using ADSL in Jan 2000 with your IBM PS/2 rocking in intel 8086" doesn't really make sense. The phones stuck on ios 15 are basically unusable because many apps don't support it anymore. At best you can download an older version from a few years ago, but that depends on whether the backend servers were updated. Apps that insist you use the latest version (eg. banking/finance apps) basically unusable.
    - brainwad 6mo ago
      A phone is not unusable because some banking apps don't work on it. It didn't even ship with said apps installed.
      - gruez 6mo ago
        Believe it or not, "apps" are an important "feature" of a smartphone, even if it's not theoretically bundled with it. Moreover it's not just banking apps, those are just the first ones to go, but any that don't keep backend compatibility will eventually break.
        usef- 6mo ago
- wolvoleo 6mo ago
  > Next the EU are going to have to address security patches because its another aspect being used to sell new phones. They already are. 5 years of updates is now the legal minimum in the EU. https://www.osnews.com/story/142500/new-eu-rules-mandate-five-years-of-os-updates-for-smartphones-and-tablets/ https://www.osnews.com/story/142500/new-eu-rules-mandate-fiv...
- tombert 6mo ago
  I dunno, my wife has has the same iPhone 11 Pro Max since 2020. She had to get the battery replaced once at an Apple store, which I believe cost $99, and it took like thirty minutes and it wasn't that hard. I'll admit it's a little annoying that I have to pay a hundred bucks to get the battery replaced, but the phone is otherwise fine and still gets updates, so I don't know that I buy that it's "planned obsolescence".
  - johanyc 6mo ago
    It's planned obsolescence through price. Your wife paid >50% of the phone's value just to replace the battery. Many people won't think that's worth it. It could have been a $30 user replaceable battery.
    - bitmasher9 6mo ago
      Or she spent 7% of the purchase price of a new device to defer requiring to upgrade for another 3 years. $100 is worth it, but you can get a good discount by going to that one mall kiosk instead of the Apple Store.
      - Alpha3031 6mo ago
        > you can get a good discount by going to that one mall kiosk instead of the Apple Store. Apple actively impeded third-party repair shops though. Oregon had to outlaw parts pairing for them to change that practice.
      - johanyc 5mo ago
        > I don't know that I buy that it's "planned obsolescence". I'm responding to this. It might be worth it for your wife. But if for a lot of people, paying $100 to revive a 6 year old phone is a bad deal, then it's planned obsolescence
  - AdrianB1 6mo ago
    Imagine you can order a battery from Apple for $20 and you swap it in 1 minute: less money, less time, user satisfaction++.
twilo 6mo ago
If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt from this, which is exactly what Apple implemented a few years ago. Low cost phones will be most affected.
- oybng 6mo ago
  Is 1000 cycles above 80% even possible without gimping the device like apple does with all its hardware?
- mschuster91 6mo ago
  > Low cost phones will be most affected. Not really. Take a 4000 mAh rated cell, advertise it as "rated for 3500 mAh" and that's it.
  - LeonidasXIV 6mo ago
    Isn't this pretty much what Nothing are doing? At least one of their phones has a different battery rating in India than elsewhere, despite containing the same hardware.
- raverbashing 6mo ago
  Funnily enough I've had a "low cost phone" with replaceable batteries (the "old school way") So it does not seem a big deal
- Hamuko 6mo ago
  Wish they'd have implemented it before the iPhone 14 Pro launched. I'm at 624 cycles right now and my phone's gone below 80% fucking ages ago.
  - frizlab 6mo ago
    > The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools I’m pretty sure that’s more or less already the case, so…
  - jkestner 6mo ago
nslsm 6mo ago
Damn, recently I had a phone with a battery that wasn’t properly glued and it would turn off when shaken. I hope this doesn’t become the norm from now on.
- dragontamer 6mo ago
  Behold: the widget of the future. A spring.
- IsTom 6mo ago
  Never had this issue with several cellphones I had in ye olden times when all cellphones had removable batteries. All it takes is a properly designed connector.
  - Hamuko 6mo ago
    Yeah, none of my Nokias with a removable back cover and battery had that issue. What you realistically might've had was instead that you dropped your phone on the floor and the battery came flying out.
daoboy 6mo ago
I understood that the move to non-replaceable batteries was at least partially driven by water resistance *Edit. Not sure why people are downvoting. I didn't make a positive declaration. HN didn't used to be this way for completely milquetoast comments.
- Aachen 6mo ago
  Galaxy S5 was IP67-rated (1 metre depth, 30 minutes) and had a user-replaceable back cover / battery Also a notification LED, OLED screen, bezels to pick the device up by, headphone jack, unlockable, a continuous light sensor... peak smartphone, save perhaps for the meager 200 Hz accelerometer refresh rate (modern phones have 500 Hz usually, I have no idea what for but I personally love toying with FFT plots)
  - raw_anon_1111 6mo ago
    If the headphone port flap was perfectly sealed….
    - BenjiWiebe 6mo ago
      *charge port flap
      - Aachen 6mo ago
        Waterproof phones all still have charging ports and no flaps. Not sure how but that seems to be solved. Maybe that one part's connectors are encased in glue?
- haritha-j 6mo ago
  It probably makes things easier, but its unlikely that the industry that found a way to make foldables waterproof couldn't figure out a way to put rubber gaskets on battery covers. And in fact, they did, there were several devices introduced in the transition period that had both features.
999900000999 6mo ago
>The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools This is doing a lot of work here. There's enough wiggle room for this to be absolutely meaningless. Anything short of I can slide off the back cover and maybe unscrew two or three screws to replace the battery means that a lot of people are going to end up not being able to replace the batteries.
- napolux 6mo ago
  better than glued.
  - mminer237 6mo ago
    Heat guns and pryers are commercially available. I don't think this will change anything there.
    - napolux 6mo ago
      Also Stanley's Fubar and CAT 797 trucks are commercially available, doesn't mean I will need one of those to change my phone battery :)
    - kotaKat 6mo ago
      And Pentalobe screwdrivers are also commercially available now, so Apple doesn't even have to include one...
    - fainpul 6mo ago
      You're wrong about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530
      - mminer237 6mo ago
        Thanks. I couldn't find the text for the life of me. Glad to be wrong.
- 6mo ago
hparadiz 6mo ago
Now do screens.
- oever 6mo ago
  and software.
concinds 6mo ago
Seems to me like the top goal should be: you can easily replace the most-likely-to-break parts (screen, back, battery, etc) in any local independent repair shop, with genuine parts that have low markups. I'm confused why that still isn't the case today given all the EU headlines we've seen over the years.
- tossaway0 6mo ago
  Low markups wouldn't be the main issue in the EU, though it would help. It's labor cost because it takes skill, specialized tools, and time. If the shop could replace the battery with nothing more niche than a torx bit in 5 minutes we wouldn't be talking about this.
1970-01-01 6mo ago
They (Samsung, Apple, etc.) should never have been allowed to glue it behind the screen. Threaded fasteners and a silicone gasket cover is good enough for 99.999% of the public use-case.
- rimliu 6mo ago
  > is good enough for 99.999% of the public use-case You know this how, exactly?
  - 1970-01-01 6mo ago
    Via firsthand observation of people in the world. Go ahead and check the number of people on the street that need the edge case of using the phone under IEC standard 60529. Now go ahead and check out how many people on the street want to be able to replace their battery.
pnathan 6mo ago
This is good. I recently had to replace a generally working phone because the battery was dying and there was no cost effective & reliable means of replacing. A proper gasket and screws needs to be the standard solution here.
gcanyon 6mo ago
Yikes, I don't live in the EU, but I absolutely don't want this. Maybe I'm mistaken and they could have achieved the same with removable batteries, but my phone is completely waterproof, dustproof, and has survived more than a few hard drops with no case. I would definitely take that over a replaceable battery. Again, I acknowledge they might not be mutually exclusive.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- w4yai 6mo ago
  I don't have the same experience at all. For me, battery life is the #1 reason of obsolescence of my smartphones.
- Someone1234 6mo ago
  With respect, maybe read the article? You're against it, because you didn't read what is being mandated and instead just invented worst-case scenarios instead. You're against your own Strawman. The proposal is: batteries must be removable using commercially available tools, if the manufacturer requires specialist tools then they must provide them for free. Essentially they're banning specialized tools, and mandating that repair shops and consumers must be able to purchase replacement batteries for "at least five years." For context the iPhone was already altered to be compliant with this law and none of the issues you raised were notably worse in the iPhone Air, or 17. This likely will eliminate specialist software to "sync" batteries, and non-standard screws/attachment mechanisms.
  - Noumenon72 6mo ago
    > You're against your own Strawman. > The proposal is: batteries must be removable using commercially available tools That's exactly what he's against, plus the premise "Making batteries removable prevents them from being waterproof, dustproof, and collision resistant". Which may be true or false, but not a straw man.
    - 6mo ago
azalemeth 6mo ago
This is excellent news. Now make them have user-unlockable and user-relockable bootloaders...
- system2 6mo ago
  You wish.
oever 6mo ago
Awesome! And next, hopefully, replaceable software. Which will do much more for phone longevity.
infecto 6mo ago
I am simply not a fan of this type of legislation. It reminds me of CA bullet button. I also don’t quite understand the purpose. Official retail cost from Apple in the US ~$120. Third-party you can usually get it around $60. Sure the battery does not have quick accessibility but I can replace it pretty cheaply.
- tristanj 6mo ago
  Agreed. This rule will likely be irrelevant in 5-10 years when battery technology improves, and it has such a huge carve out (batteries that maintain 80% capacity after 1000 cycles are exempt) every phone manufacture can get around it. Phone makers can meet this regulation by artificially limiting battery capacity through software to protect battery health. Or they could put in a 10,000 mAh battery and only allow the user to use 8,000 of it, and use the rest as buffer. A better example is the EU cookie consent law. The intent was to make websites stop using cookies, but what resulted was websites didn't change anything except put up annoying consent banners, and made the internet experience worse.
  - datadrivenangel 6mo ago
    If the battery lasts 10 years basically then that's fair, but ease of repair is very useful.
- jacekm 6mo ago
  $60 has different value in other parts of the world.
  - infecto 6mo ago
    Sure but how does this legislation help that? Not to mention that would mean labor is going to be a lot cheaper so the largest cost may be the battery itself. That $60 would come down.
gib444 6mo ago
Have they researched durability with replaceable batteries and can promise us phones won't break more often?
- Aachen 6mo ago
  Don't remember that being necessary to taketh away, and now that they're required to giveth it back we don't want it anymore?!
yyy3 6mo ago
Phone manufacturers should be able to seal their phones to prevent unwanted substance egress and to compete on aesthetics. They should also make the seal breachable with consumer-grade hand tools like a hairdryer, suction cup, and plastic wedges. The inside of the phone should use standard screws and securing mechanisms, and batteries should not be glued to the phone. I actually really like what Apple's been doing with its new batteries by sealing them in metal. That way if a user is being careless and accidentally slips a screwdriver under the back of their phone, the risk that they puncture their battery and start a fire is greatly reduced. It secures the most dangerous component of your device in a way that makes it easy for anyone to remove and replace safely. I'm sure Apple has a robot to rip the battery out of its case at its recycling plant, and if the phone gets dropped in a lake or something, if that battery eventually catastrophically fails, at least it's wrapped in a suit of armor.
schubidubiduba 6mo ago
Recently replaced the battery and charging port of my Fairphone. 5 screws, two plucked components, done. Hopefully this means that soon you won't have to buy a specific company's phone for this marvelous experience.
- tristanj 6mo ago
  The Fairphone 5 is only IP55 rated (dust protected, and water droplet resistant). Most flagship phones are IP68 rated (fully dust sealed, and water submersible). IP68 phones are sealed with a single-use adhesive gasket, and replacing battery requires breaking (and replacing) this seal. If the seal is improperly applied, the phone is no longer protected from dust or water.
  - Aachen 6mo ago
    There is also a middle ground of IP67 from the Samsung Galaxy S5. I'm personally fine with the Fairphone level (they clearly prioritise easy and frequent disassembly; that's their entire brand) but for someone who wants to be able to submerge it just below the surface and walk through pouring rain for hours, that would be enough
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
mentalgear 6mo ago
I was looking forward to finally be able to easily switch out (i)Phone batteries again - after 20 years - but turns out the lobbyists managed to get a loophole in the law - exempting Apple & Co from making their phones more repairable / longer live-able. > If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt
- AshamedCaptain 6mo ago
  Yes, this is the most non-story I have ever seen on this topic. I do not know of any manufacturer who does not claim this, verifiable or otherwise; and even if they can't claim it, all they have to do is one minor purely-software capacity adjustment, which they will gladly do before they will even consider offering removable batteries. What a disappointment.
  - close04 6mo ago
    Apple has no chance to claim their batteries can have 80% capacity after 1000 cycles seeing how they never achieved this so far. Lying about it puts them in a world of mass recalls and fraud investigations.
    - less_less 6mo ago
      I'm pretty the spec sheet claimed 1000 cycles when I bought my iPhone 17. They do claim it at least for iPhone 15 "under ideal conditions": https://support.apple.com/en-us/101575 https://support.apple.com/en-us/101575
      - close04 6mo ago
        VW engine specs said some things about emissions. It’s fine to have unrealistic specs if there are no consequences. The f there’s a law about it they’re far more exposed to people catching a lie or at least an unrealistic estimate.
    - bombcar 6mo ago
      Depends on how "cycle" is defined - I'm sure they can finagle it so "any charge added to the battery" counts as a cycle. As a datapoint my iPhone reports 522 cycles and 89% max - from march 2024. I do use the "limit charging to 80%" feature which I suspect may become mandatory before 2027 ...
larusso 6mo ago
So this means no iPhone Air 2 in Europe? I can hardly see Apple wiggle around the special tools requirement when these batteries are glued and sealed shut in the devices. [edit] didn’t see the fine print with the cycles requirement etc. so it seems Apple etc is still safe.
- alternatex 6mo ago
  Was there ever a plan for an iPhone Air 2? They're struggling to sell the stock they have.
bhouston 6mo ago
Will this affect the water-resistance of current iPhones? I thought that was why the batteries are not easily replaceable by users, because of the seals/gaskets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dyL6hMZvWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dyL6hMZvWQ
- kristjank 6mo ago
  Most wristwatches provide much stronger water resistance while still being very user serviceable with a $20 watch tool kit. Whatever the phone makers are peddling are mostly excuses.
  - prism56 6mo ago
    Also the latest pixel watch has a new mechanism without glue that has a rubber gasket and screws.
- tencentshill 6mo ago
  Galaxy S5 worked quite well. IP67 and a removable battery.
  - giobox 6mo ago
    While I'd be perfectly content with an IP67 iPhone with interchangeable battery, the current iPhones are IP68 which is a significant step up in dust/water ingress protection. IP68 devices generally require a sealant, IP67 normally doesn't, making it easier to do a battery hatch etc.
    - cybrox 6mo ago
      IP68 doesn't require a sealant if you just use enough pressure. Phones are just too thin to screw on the back plate and use a proper gasket. Which is stupid in the first place because most people then go and put a bulky cover on them.
      - deleted 6mo ago
ape4 6mo ago
As a non-European I want to say: thanks EU
Bad_CRC 6mo ago
Gigaset makes IP68/MIL-STD-810H smartphones with removable batteries and sold the battery for 30€, don't fall for the "but watterproof".
dkobia 6mo ago
It seems like the whole world could massively benefit from this much like the other great innovation out of the EU -- the Common Charger Directive (aka USB-C).
Fokamul 6mo ago
I hope someday EU will implement requirements for phones -> You must be able to flash any firmware (OS) on your phone, without any restrictions. This is much more important, than batteries.
cgannett 6mo ago
Hopefully the EU can get the battery situation to mirror the charging cable situation. IE force them all to adopt an industry standard.
gbeardish 6mo ago
They should extend the principle to laptops, obviously.
- nomel 6mo ago
  I think most (all?) would already comply. What laptop do you see as not having a user replacable battery? Even MacBook can be swapped out pretty easily [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgTon2jqI-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgTon2jqI-A
  - gbeardish 6mo ago
    I won't name brands, but there are lots of low cost "tablet with keyboard" laptops with glued battery. Just a couple of months ago I had to ditch one. Anyway, if most comply, why not make it mandatory? Or are these kind of directives only aimed at picking fights with manufacturers? Note that I am not suggesting that all laptops should have USB-C chargers, that's a separate directive. I mean user replaceable batteries available for at least 5 years, without requiring major surgery to replace.
  - fainpul 6mo ago
    MacBooks are not easy at all. I did it twice and it's an annoying, dangerous mess (danger of tearing the battery open). Apple won't even bother with it. If you want an "official job", they will just replace the whole top shell including the keyboard, because they can't be bothered to remove the glue. And of course it's expensive because of that.
    - nomel 6mo ago
      8 minutes to complete, using only a screw driver and credit card, once every three or four years, is definitely "annoying". But, I'd still say it's also "pretty easy" (I never said "easy"). My reference frame may be different than yours.
      - fainpul 6mo ago
Havoc 6mo ago
Neat. That may allow repurposing phones as mini home servers too. Lithium batteries in things running 24/7 unsupervised always makes me a bit nervous
binaryturtle 6mo ago
How about computers to have replaceable SSDs? There's no point you can exchange the battery when the hard-soldered SSD dies first. (I had more dead SSDs than batteries)
- krs_ 6mo ago
  And get rid of soldered RAM while we're at it as well.
- cybrox 6mo ago
  At least there's a choice there. I've never bought a computer with a soldered-on SSD.
- surgical_fire 6mo ago
  This should be mandatory, although I never had a computer where the SSD was not replaceable. Some were a bit of a pain in the ass to replace though.
mytailorisrich 6mo ago
Considering that this, and other, regulation is officially aimed at reducing e-waste, the EU should commit to publish independent data on the amount of e-waste and phones replacement rates now and every year afterwards in order to measure the real world impact. Too often, including in HN comments, those regulations are presented as "obviously" good policies. Well, data are better than assumptions.
- Aachen 6mo ago
  I don't know if this is standard, but at least for some previously enacted electronics regulations I know they look into the real-world effects. I think I was looking for information on how they calculate the battery life for the new smartphone energy labels (e.g. is the browsing test over WiFi or the LTE/NR modem) when I found some document about how much energy they're expecting to save with this regulation. It showed a base path of expected energy consumption development, and then how the regulation is expected to modify that Edit: not the one I saw before, but found a similar document via https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu -> policy making -> "EIA reports and related analyses" -> 2025 overview report https://circabc.europa.eu/ui/group/418195ae-4919-45fa-a959-3b695c9aab28/library/c06608a7-9e47-4737-b0d2-da9aec097171/details https://circabc.europa.eu/ui/group/418195ae-4919-45fa-a959-3... -> see e.g. the graphic at the top of page 79 The shaded area is the effect that they think is attributable to regulations, e.g. -2.2TWh electricity per year in the category of phones and tablets when comparing 2010 and 2030 As another example, for "Servers and data storage products" they expect almost no change due to regulation: the consumption is expected to go from 48 to 67 TWh (2010 till 2030) and that it would have been 70 TWh without regulations. If I'm reading it right, this small improvement would be due to the 2019 "information requirement ... including the maximum allowed operating temperature for the equipment ... to stimulate data centres to choose equipment that supports higher operating temperatures, to enable further reduction of the cooling load." Page 42 shows that they also take into account 'additional acquisition costs' (how much more expensive devices are because of this, I think that means?), but that this added expense is well below the energy costs that would have been incurred otherwise. Of course, that's what I'd say too about my regulations :) but I don't know of another information source for this so this is the best info I have atm
int32_64 6mo ago
I still sometimes miss the Samsung Galaxy I had that had a microSD slot, a removable battery, and a headphone jack. Phones have lost so much in a decade.
- precommunicator 6mo ago
  I have a Samsung Galaxy from 2022 that has exactly that and it's still supported by manufacturer. Unfortunately it's a Samsung Galaxy Tab Active4 Pro.
- Aachen 6mo ago
  Same but from the other side. The new phone (without SD, removable battery, or headphone jack) is already acquired and laying in my drawer, but I have yet to bite into the lemon and start making the switch. Too damn convenient compared to the abstract threat of software updates... I'm dreading the new situation so much
noja 6mo ago
Hot swap batteries! Who's going to offer THAT first?
MBCook 6mo ago
I thought USB-C was already required.
nkmnz 6mo ago
Well, 9 more months until I’m going to replace my iPhone 12!
konschubert 6mo ago
Aren't today's phone batteries already replaceable with commercially available tools? I can walk into a non-apple store with my iPhone and walk out with a replaced battery 20 minutes later. This isn't even what drives obsolesce of phones, it's software updates. If you really want to be able to self-swap your own battery, you can just buy an Android that has a replaceable battery. Do we need to regulate something that isn't a problem? All regulation has downsides, is it worth paying this price here?
- OutOfHere 6mo ago
  People shouldn't have to go to a special store or buy special tools requiring special skills to change a battery.
  - throwaway27448 6mo ago
    I'd rather my phone be waterproof than have a battery I can replace myself
    - bombcar 6mo ago
      It's likely impossible to legislate but it would be nice to say "each generation has to have one user-replaceable battery". Everyone who doesn't care (the 99%) can buy the iPhone 19x, and the people who want replaceable batteries can get the iPhone B.
      - konschubert 6mo ago
        Then the 99% have to pay extra to subsidise the compliance phone for the 1%...
    - OutOfHere 6mo ago
      Why do you imply that the phone could no longer be waterproof? Granted, it would take a bit of extra engineering to make it comparably waterproof. There is no reasonable implication that water needs to leak into the internals of the device where it makes contact with the battery.
cmos 6mo ago
What if we regulate batteries even more? i.e. what if, in some magical perfect world, the world get's together and agrees on batteries for phones like how we agree on AA,AAA,D,C batteries? Even more though.. a standard connector, a standard comms bus, a variety of sizes, and they were designed for reuse as efficiently as possible. Now we can scale up volume, swap them out, be free to purchase from a different manufacturer, and have scaled up recycling services.
- PunchyHamster 6mo ago
  Phones would be hard because manufacturers want to fill every square mm of it, but we can start with power tools batteries...
  - rootusrootus 6mo ago
    Power tools have lots of empty space in the battery case already, and most just use 18650s. We could mandate making the cells directly reachable. Phones are definitely a more difficult use case.
  - throwawaymobule 6mo ago
    Some manufacturers in the industry are already standardising on one or two designs since a few years ago.
- MrDrMcCoy 6mo ago
  I'd settle for requiring the battery specs to be fully available, and that they can't be made difficult to manufacture without good reason. Ideally, there should be some set of standard protocols/connectors/voltages/sizes, but the manufacturer should only be held to "downward-compliance" with at least one of them, so they can have flexibility in design but still leave a suboptimal standard option available to users as a fallback.
- Postosuchus 6mo ago
  That's an excellent idea! It will work out absolutely great - much like Communism. Meaning, when you forcefully standardize and regulate how phones are built, you might expect that companies will not compete on making better phones (since they are not very much differentiated) but on who produces the cheapest phone.
tzs 6mo ago
> The move comes amid EU-wide efforts to cut the continent’s carbon footprint and tackle mounting waste [...] ... > [...] if specialised tools are required, they must be provided free of charge when the phone or tablet is purchased. So if a family buys several phones and tablets that all use the same specialized tool to change their batteries they end up with several identical specialized tools? From a reducing waste perspective wouldn't it be better to just require that the tool be available for free for some reasonable amount of time such as however long the manufacturer is required to support the device?
- surgical_fire 6mo ago
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everyone 6mo ago
Awesome! hopefully apple will just stop selling their filth here entirely.
kevin_thibedeau 6mo ago
They need a standardized battery. Something with common terminals and width available in a range of thicknesses and lengths would be ideal.
thangalin 6mo ago
While this is a good step forward, it feels like complaining about the 0.025% of plastic from straws in the ocean while ignoring the 75% of plastic from fishing nets. I own a 2020 Kona EV. The battery cannot be upgraded. Eventually, I'll have to replace the entire car to get a longer range. BEVs should be mandated to have upgradable batteries and modular interfaces so that the shell can continue to be reused, the batteries (and BMS) upgraded, and old batteries easily recycled.
- functionmouse 6mo ago
  it's all virtue signalling. Always has been.
  - ezst 6mo ago
    Disagree. I want a replaceable battery in my phone. They can get to extensible memory next. And it's not because you don't care about something that you should remove this freedom from me. And don't tell me that the market will self regulate in the best interests of the consumer or other nonsense like that.
    - vel0city 6mo ago
      I want replaceable CPU and memory in my phone as well. I demand the government force device manufacturers to use socketed CPUs using standardized sockets and SO-DIMM memory. And it's not because you don't care about something that you should remove this freedom from me.
      - ezst 6mo ago
        I mean, why not? Fairphones showed it can be done, to an extent. At least this should be pursued. One step at a time, though.
        vel0city 6mo ago
        Fairphones absolutely do not have a socketed CPU and user replaceable memory. Each generation has one mainboard with soldered components, which I don't see listed as a part to replace on their site.
tomaspiaggio12 6mo ago
This is idiotic. What's next, disallowing unified memory or SoC with packaged memory? These people think they know better than world experts on these matters.
Aissen 6mo ago
Next: replaceable storage? Since flash-based storage is widely known as a consumable that tends to fail first.
- Aachen 6mo ago
  You mean the kind of "first" that comes right after shattered screens, worn batteries, and loose charging ports? :P I agree in spirit though: storage chips wearing out seems to be common from my limited experience and it would be good if you could solder on, or slide in, a new chip with some standard procedure
  - Aissen 6mo ago
    Screen, battery and charging port replacements are already routine at any repair shop, at least for the devices I buy.
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      Sure, but you said storage chips wearing out is the first thing that fails in a device And battery replacements usually leave devices in a degraded state, not sure about screen or charging port, so it's still good that this becomes more accessible
Night_Thastus 6mo ago
I hate to say it, but the lack of removable batteries serves a purpose. It wasn't done just because 'screw consumers'. It was done because: * It makes phones massively easier to waterproof * It allows for larger batteries * It allows for more compact and lighter phones Consumers, based on what they buy, have shown again and again that they want these features. It also simplifies manufacture and lowers costs, which everyone likes. I like removable batteries. If I had the option, I'd get a phone with that feature. But I know that I am certainly in the minority, as is almost everyone in this thread. It's also worth pointing out that these days, battery and software have advanced to the point where degradation is quite slow in many cases. The phone will often outlive its useful life due to specs rather than battery.
EcommerceFlow 6mo ago
What percent of iphone users would take a sleeker, slimmer phone over a replaceable battery?
- Aachen 6mo ago
  I don't think hackers (in the Hacker News sense of the word) are generally iphone users, considering apple's hostility and condescension towards customers, fighting consumer rights forced by regulators, and device lock-down. People who already compromised on that for a status symbol would probably take the shiny new toy over functionality, sure
seba_dos1 6mo ago
I have never used a phone without easily replaceable battery (where "easily" means no screwdriver necessary, just pop the backcover and pull the battery out). It just happened this way, but I think I'd refuse to buy one anyway, as aside of obvious repairability and maintainability issues having the battery sealed in is also a big factor that makes dropping the phone so dangerous. When I drop my phone, the battery is easily set free to disperse its kinetic energy away from more fragile parts of the device, so it's much harder to break the phone this way. I have made some small dents and scratches from drops over the years, but no serious damage.
- gf000 6mo ago
  This is not what the laws is about, though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 It's replaceable without special tools, heating, solvents. It can easily feature a screw or a million other solutions.
LazyMans 6mo ago
This might be shifting us closer to worse overall design/performance to accommodate swapability. The pouch cells are very fragile, with the phone itself being the physical protection for the cell. If end users begin to handle these, you likely have to add additional packaging to the cell which increases the overall dimensions or reduces total capacity to maintain the same size. Maybe it's for our own good, maybe we have to suck it up and lose a little capacity to meet sustainability goals. Or maybe this won't do much for the environment.
- jszymborski 6mo ago
  I know a common refrain with my friends is "IDGAF about an extra few centimeters, give me an audio jack". I think consumers are down for thicker phones if they get something for it. In this case, a phone that lasts longer
  - Tagbert 6mo ago
    You assume that everyone needs more battery life. That need is highly variable based on different use and access to chargers.
  - konschubert 6mo ago
    People say that but then they don’t buy the phones. There is a difference between revealed and stated preference.
    - jszymborski 6mo ago
      Where in the market can I buy a thicker phone with a 3.5mm jack that has comparable features to those of best sellers? How can I reveal a preference that isn't offered.
  - randomNumber7 6mo ago
    I'm pretty sure most companies optimize for what the consumers actually want.
blinkingled 6mo ago
Now they only need to make sure that a supply chain for replacement batteries exists, there is regulation and competition and options remain available for a reasonable price. There are plenty of old Dell and HP laptops with replaceable batteries which can only be found on eBay or some random seller that does who knows what under the refurbishing process.
- saltcured 6mo ago
  Exactly. I had phones and laptops with replaceable batteries in the past. I liked the idea of it, but in practice there was no OEM-quality replacement available by the time I wanted one. The device would have been usable to me still, but not with a random black market battery that may well be a fire hazard. Having thought about this long term, I think the only solution to this would be mandating standardized battery cells. Rather than every phone model having a bespoke cell that is manufactured once and then obsoleted, they need to have standardized shape and electrical characteristics so that batteries being produced for new phones would also be useful to rehabilitate old phones.
  - lamasery 6mo ago
    I expect we'll see a spike in cell phone battery fires starting about a year after this goes into effect. Same deal as cheap external battery-powered travel power banks, which are already a problem.
- gib444 6mo ago
  > Now they only need to make sure that a supply chain for replacement batteries exists, there is regulation and competition and options remain available for a reasonable price. No, they won't do the hard part. Just the minimum plus a ton of PR and back patting then move on.
pwdisswordfishq 6mo ago
What good are replaceable batteries if the software becomes obsolete and un-upgradeable by the time you need to replace the battery?
- kylehotchkiss 6mo ago
  the secondary market for old phones seems strong?
  - fsflover 6mo ago
    Because people don't understand the security implications of non-updated software?
    - dingaling 6mo ago
      If it's a choice between no phone and an old, software-EOL phone I can't blame them. Frankly so long as my browser, VPN and mail app are updated I'm happy.
    - okanat 6mo ago
      Phones cannot have non-updated software due to another EU Regulation: Cyber Resilience Act. You need to support devices at least for 5 years starting from December 2027.
      - fsflover 6mo ago
        And after 5 years? My phone runs mainline Linux and thus will have lifetime updates, just like my laptop.
        okanat 6mo ago
        How sure are you that the vendor is actually providing device-specific updates? What about firmware updates? Outside of x86 ecosystem the whole-device-family updates in mainline Linux kernel is rare. You're probably deceiving yourself believing that your devices are up-to-date. Most of the time laptops and many "mainline-friendly" phones stop receiving firmware updates in 2 years. By "firmware" I mean the binary blobs for the peripherals. Most of the SoCs have unified memory for the LTE and CPU modules. If a vulnerability found in the firmware of the LTE module, it can be used for data extraction. CRA puts hard requirements on documenting and fixing vulnerabilities in device software in 5 year period. It cannot be infinite amount of years, so a reasonable update period had to be choosen. It covers everything provided by the vendor itself too. So if there are vulnerabilities in FW they have to fix it unlike the current situation.
bethekidyouwant 6mo ago
They’re just going to change the software for thebattery so that it only charges to 80% capacity so that it meets the requirement of 1000 cycles no one is actually getting replaceable batteries. Edit: commercially available tools. All right so you just sell that tool on your shop.
emtel 6mo ago
One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". It's okay to have idiosyncratic preferences (I certainly do), but people should recognize that this law will make phones _worse_ for most people, because this law will force phone manufacturers to compromise the things that most people want in order to provide something that most people don't want. I suppose someone will say that this law is necessary for environmental reasons, regardless of people's preferences. But that's nonsense, because the law doesn't actually require people to replace batteries rather than replacing their phone, and by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone. At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so.
- afavour 6mo ago
  I think that’s the wrong way of framing it. If, before the launch of the iPhone, you asked what people wanted from their phones you’d be there a very long time before anyone described something like an iPhone (no buttons, capacitive touch interface, etc). And yet, once they were offered it, people flocked to it. This regulation is targeted to devices with poor battery lives. Just because it hasn’t occurred to people to ask for the feature doesn’t mean they won’t appreciate it.
  - emtel 6mo ago
    That's an odd reply since by that argument they also flocked to a phone with no replaceable battery, which was pretty standard in the 2000s. But you could be right. I guess this will be an experiment to watch: If EU consumers show a strong preference for replaceable batteries once they become more widely available, we can expect manufacturers to start offering it in other markets as well.
    - afavour 6mo ago
      I think everything is a tradeoff and at that point people took the trade. But the place smartphones take in our lives today compared to 2006 is radically different, I wouldn’t assume much carries over.
romanovcode 6mo ago
This is amazing news. However, doesn't Apple already provides this? You can go to store and switch your battery for like 60 EUR or so.
arjunthazhath 6mo ago
Dude I dream of a day where there will batteryless phones with no requirement to charge. That would be pure bliss.
- orthecreedence 6mo ago
  Like, a landline?
  - 0x1ceb00da 6mo ago
    Nfc tags don't have battery and they draw power from the em waves of the scanner. Maybe in a few centuries we will power our phones using the cell towers.
  - arjunthazhath 6mo ago
    But landline requires wire. A portable mobile phone without battery and no requirement to charge.
htx80nerd 6mo ago
I dont care about replacing the battery but doing a 'battery pull' is very useful sometimes. Esp when Android locks up.
jwr 6mo ago
I recently bought a Supernote Manta. It's an e-ink writing tablet. Guess what: it has a back which can be opened, and its innards are easily accessible. I could pop in an SD card, and the battery can be replaced, too. It's thin and light. We are being gaslighted by Apple. They keep telling us that it's impossible to have a thin and light device with a user-replaceable battery, or even, heaven forbid, an SD card slot. I beg to differ: there are some compromises (it won't be as seamless perhaps and Jony Ive or whoever won't be able to wax poetic about the materials), but it can be done. I would imagine something similar is true for waterproofing. There are certainly ways to have a separate battery and phone, with a waterproofed connector.
miduil 6mo ago
I wonder if this is the reason for Google not majorly renewing their Pixel line since Pixel 9 till 11.
anygivnthursday 6mo ago
And next we could have mandatory security patching for 5 years to make it worth replacing the battery on an old phone. I would say right to repair should apply to the firmware/OS as well.
- jhasse 6mo ago
  Already exists in the EU: https://www.reddit.com/r/Smartphones/comments/1lad1a4/eus_new_5year_update_mandate/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Smartphones/comments/1lad1a4/eus_ne...
  - anygivnthursday 6mo ago
    Ah, I must be living under a rock, thanks :)
bickfordb 6mo ago
Aside from an easily swap-able battery I would love for an iPhone with a double thickness screen that was less susceptible to cracking and built-in rubber bumpers so I wouldn't need a case.
- moffkalast 6mo ago
  I'll take what is a screen protector for 500, Alex.
maerF0x0 6mo ago
I mean, I paid like $100 to have apple do it on my iphone 13 mini. It took a few hours and my phone works approximately like new. If a $800 phone's battery lasts 4 years, it's very much worth $100 to get even a couple more years out of it... Next time I will also by previous generation rather than the newest model.
jurschreuder 6mo ago
Ironically the EU also demands phones are water proof. And they say this will save consumers money, but I will this not also make all new phones way more expensive?
- prism56 6mo ago
  No because phones should be priced as what people pay for them... It's an open market.
ibrahmAly 6mo ago
Well, Nokia phones used to be good phones with replaceable batteries.
fleroviumna 6mo ago
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mancerayder 6mo ago
Every single Pixel upgrade I made - every single one - in the last decade has been because of battery life. This law will be tragic for Google and Apple. What will compel people to upgrade their functional phones?
- prism56 6mo ago
  There was nothing stopping you (and others) getting the battery swapped previously for a fraction of the price of a new device.
  - rootusrootus 6mo ago
    Yeah this is what I don’t get. People are actually blowing hundreds of dollars on new phones rather than having Apple (not the cheapest option certainly) replace the battery for $89
    - prism56 6mo ago
      Yeah and it'll likely cost the same for the majority of people who won't bother replacing them at home.
- thebruce87m 6mo ago
  > Every single Pixel upgrade I made - every single one You make it sound like a large number. I’m keeping iPhones for 4 years now and upgrading because of cameras. Are pixels really that bad?
rcarmo 6mo ago
Now all we need is that they honor the requirement for at least one physical nano-SIM so that we are not beholden to carriers to do something as simple as switching phones when travelling--or in an emergency.
drooopy 6mo ago
In order to have my iPhone 11's battery replaced by my local apple authorised repair shop, inexplicably I have to leave my phone with them for days. Since the phone is old they have to order the battery from Apple and that could take up to a week, according to them. Of course it's impossible to stay without my phone for a week+ so my only option is to buy a new phone if I want to fix my battery capacity issues.
- rootusrootus 6mo ago
  Find a repair shop that will order the battery in advance?
  - drooopy 6mo ago
    There aren’t any 3rd party repair shops close to me that are in Apple’s Independent Repair Provider network, so if I were to choose a random repair shop my only real option with them would be a battery from a 3rd party manufacturer, which I’ve had bad experiences with before. I wouldn’t mind as much if I could easily replace it again myself if it started swelling like last time.
    - rootusrootus 6mo ago
      Yeah it's tough when all you have locally are the aftermarket options. I'm lucky to have two Apple certified shops within a few minutes of my home, and in a pinch two Apple stores within 20-30 minutes. I bought a 12 Mini a couple years ago to be the shared phone the kids would take if they were out somewhere that we wanted to have communications ability, and it came with a third party battery. It hasn't been awful, exactly, but the life on the battery seems very low even for a mini. (every time I pick up the 12 mini, I feel tempted to find the nicest 13 mini I can find and set it up for myself. what a fantastic size, makes my 17 pro seem huge)
rootusrootus 6mo ago
As long as it does not make the phone bigger or compromise the water resistance, I support the requirement. But it is not super high on my list. Every 2 or 3 years I pay less than $100 to have a new OE battery installed, takes about an hour. There are other features I would put a higher priority on - like a good small phone option now and again.
pjmlp 6mo ago
Finally! Great to have them back.
asdefghyk 6mo ago
[offtopic] Ive always wondered why a conversion has not been offered ( by someone ) for apple phones to make, it so the battery can be replaced by end user? It would be a case modification somehow. Some kind of new "back"
loeber 6mo ago
I worry that this ends up, like other EU consumer-protection regulation, as an own goal. - The cheapest phones available in the EU (and purchasable online) all have glued-in batteries, not swappable ones. Forcing consumers to use phones with swappable batteries may just mean that the bottom of the market disappears, and consumers will be left paying more for their phones. And would they rather pay less or have swappable batteries? - This will cause some cascade of engineering changes, which will make phones thicker or less waterproof. Again, it's not clear to me that the tradeoff is being fairly reflected here.
- vincnetas 6mo ago
  ... other EU consumer-protection regulation ... like unified charging cable, free EU roaming or intercountry bank payments that are instant and almost free, air travel protections?
  - juliusceasar 6mo ago
    - efficient vaccuums - efficient bulbs - no roaming costs if somebody leaves a message on your voicemail - insurance companies and banks can't charge you as they see fit - toxic free food - toxic free meat - farming without killing the rest of the living things - Best of all: China and USA can't dictate the rules everytime
  - simplyluke 6mo ago
    Like the experience of opening any website for the last decade and being greeted with a cookie popup is more the direction the parent comment was intending I'm assuming. Some regulations are good, some are bad, all have second and third order effects that need to be weighed against benefits.
    - vincnetas 6mo ago
      and you comfortably ignore all the adds that get in your face when opening any news or commerce site. you would not need these popups with agree and list of third party data aggregators if you were not selling all that visitor information to anyone. alas eu requires you to notify visitors about it. its not like eu says "you must show annoying popups" its page authors choose to do so to be able to sell the data. even knowing that this will annoy the visitors. and then blame EU
tomwheeler 6mo ago
Thank you, EU, for having the courage to pass the pro-consumer regulations that my own government lacks. Often, as happened when the iPhone got rid of the proprietary Lightning connector, the benefits extend well beyond your borders.
- carefree-bob 6mo ago
  The right to repair legislation the EU passed is heartening. Now, let's see if they actually enforce it. There is a shocking amount of apathy on the part of people who think this doesn't affect them because they personally have no desire to use their car out of warranty or to take a car to an independent mechanic. It affects them because it affects resale price, which affects depreciation which hits their pocketbooks directly. Even if they lease the car. There is a reason that EVs are getting hammered and even ICE vehicles are seeing steeper depreciation curves, and that's because they are becoming more disposable and harder to repair. People are talking about "useful life" of a car as if this was a disposable consumer device, and not a durable good that can be repaired and maintained for decades as long as the ability to replace components is out there. Toyota famously said "Our mission is to build cars that last for 30 years in the third world" and what do you know Toyotas don't depreciate nearly as much as other cars and people still pay 5 figures for 20 year old landrovers. We also used to build toasters and refrigerators that easily last 50, 60 years or even 100 years if properly maintained. There is no reason cars can't do the same, and for some cars this is possible, but not for modern cars and certainly not for modern EVs. This can change.
lousken 6mo ago
If only we had batteries that would last for 20 years...
Eskelar 6mo ago
A lot of discussion about 'whether its needed' or 'moving a needle'. Batteries were swappable back in the day, and later on someone figured that making battery suck, can drive you to buy a new phone - because it is harder to degrade the rest of the device faster. Then we accepted that you cannot play around the battery, bcs that's the reality of things. So many people won't even think about it - but it does not mean it is not needed. I would love to make my device much better with swapping battery as many time as needed. But then I think someone will figure out to make these batteries so expensive, that it won't change a thing.
- frm88 6mo ago
  In case of Fairphone, which already has swappable batteries, this did not manifest: the batteries cost, depending on the model, between €39 and €59.
zqna 6mo ago
I wish them same regulation would be enforced on toothbrushes
viktorcode 6mo ago
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2III7 6mo ago
Earlier this year I downgraded my S24 ultra to an iphone 13 mini and then to the first gen iphone SE. I replaced the battery myself on the SE and couldn't be happier. Less screen time and more IRL time. People should just use less of their phones and for battery longevity they should not let their phones go daily below 20%. No one on this planet should use their phone more than 2 hours per day. Period. More is just plain stupid.
lolive 6mo ago
I made my local store to change the battery of my iPhone 6s for 39€. And here we are again, for the next ten years.
pojzon 6mo ago
Seems like I will be buying new iPhone in 2028.
rythie 6mo ago
It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits: I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly. I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because just the battery not the device. This way my expensive device and my data is not at risk. I can use 40+ year old cameras, because I can just put a new battery in. This is not something you can do with newer device, e.g. and iPod and you can’t even find anyone who will fit them for the older models. Battery tech moves on. There are now some batteries with charging ports on them. Other batteries offer more capacity than the original ones. Apple even did this once for me, when MacBook Air batteries were fairly easy to replace, I had mine replaced (it wore out) at the shop and they put a slightly bigger one in, which was the standard on the newer models.
- AdrianB1 6mo ago
  Some action cameras have replaceable batteries, some don't. I had a perfectly good Contour Roam 2 where the battery died and I still have a Contour Roam 3 with some low capacity battery.
  - Forgeties79 6mo ago
    My GoPro hero 4 black still going strong. Probably one of the greatest cameras ever made. They kind of hurt themselves with how good it was lol
  - pandaman 6mo ago
    Action cameras seem to have less than a 2h run-time though. One could argue that a replaceable battery is a desired feature on such a device as many users of these cameras participate in activities lasting much longer. They also tend to have replaceable memory for the same reason. And it all is achieved without EU directives as far as I know, just from the pure market demand. PS. Consumer surveillance cameras, on the other hand, don't have replaceable batteries in general, as they can operate indefinitely off a small solar panel or for months on a charge.
tencentshill 6mo ago
This must be paired with strong lithium battery import regulation. Even the highest quality OEM batteries can fail in dangerous ways (See many models of Samsung, Surface or Macbook). Cheap, dangerous Chinese imports must be eliminated as an option, because the secondhand owners doing this replacement will likely buy the cheapest replacement battery available on the market.
- butvacuum 6mo ago
  the largest danger with pouch cells will always be mishandling followed by bad BMS. it's so routine that they get abused that every llm I asked blamed leaving laptops plugged in for a spicy pillow.
tsoukase 6mo ago
Both options have pros and cons but IMHO the cons for replaceable are more. Since 2020 phone hardware and especially battery has become much better, reliable and long lasting, at least at not dirt cheap ones. It will fail long after the screen brakes or the software updates stop. And a replaceable battery degrades the design. On the other side a new battery makes an old phone like new. But again it only costs 15-20E to change it in a non-repl phone. The only real reason to promote battery repl is to reduce e-waste.
gervwyk 6mo ago
my naive opinion is that this will result in more bulky phones, with worse quality batteries.
codedokode 6mo ago
It's a good move, but that is not enough. My old Chinese phone had a replaceable battery but it lasted so long that after it died, it was not possible to find the replacement. It seems that all phones have batteries with different sizes, and potentially different third pin designation, so even if you find smaller battery, it still can be incompatible because of third pin. So if you want phones to be usable for longer period, you need to standardize batteries.
- lsbehe 6mo ago
  While standardization would be nice, I can still order batteries for the Samsung phones I've used 15 years ago. Availability might not be that much of an issue with larger brands.
  - catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
    As long as those unused batteries you can find are fresh a 15 year old unused battery would be doa
    - jolmg 6mo ago
      There's an aftermarket for phone batteries. They're new batteries produced by what I imagine are unaffiliated manufacturers. As long as the phone is popular enough, there should be enough market for manufacturers to make new batteries.
      - ssl-3 6mo ago
        I'm not sure which I like more: A no-name lithium polymer battery going through its chemical charging process near me every night while I sleep, or a no-name lithium polymer battery doing the same thing somewhere else in the house every night while I sleep. Both seems pretty non-ideal if it decides to go exothermic and start a fire. Neither will be actionable (what, I'm going to sue a nameless company in China?). I am sure of this: Until this battery chemistry is sorted out to be unilaterally safer (which may never actually happen), or we switch to something else that is safer, or third-party manufacturers start bringing their face to the table instead of deliberately hiding in the shadows, I'm sticking to batteries that are sold by the company that made my phone. I don't have room in my life to save a few dollars by buying cheap lipos from unknowable sources. There's too many corners that can be cut to save on process expense and QC, and they far too often are cut. And to that end: A standard, legislated promise of 5 years of availability from sounds a lot better than what we have today.
IvanK_net 6mo ago
They should have standardized 3 to 5 battery sizes (and their connectors, voltages, etc.), so that the same battery could be used across many different devices, which would bring down the cost even more.
dzonga 6mo ago
good idea - but not effective enough. if you gonna go about e-waste then go by repairability and part prices and part supply. then let the market sort itself out. as someone said - either standardize batteries or ensure that device makers can cap the cost of battery replacement from 3rd parties. most phones these days - the screen gets damaged before batteries. what about laptops ? other e-devices ?
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
innagadadavida 6mo ago
Legally can this be satisfied by shipping a MagSafe battery pack or is that considered insufficient?
NalNezumi 6mo ago
For context to HN readers reading all the naysayer comments: Here's old HN post about EU and USB-C regulation "EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31652291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31652291 And 1 year later: "Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33358353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33358353 It's interesting to see almost all the exact sentiment. I think barring some niches, most people are happy with USB-C transition. I understand the scepticism but the expectation of "perfection" from regulators (incremental improvement disliked) while fanfare for incremental startup / tech improvement is a weird, cognitive dissonance of HN
- aucisson_masque 6mo ago
  I still remember the people arguing that lightning is just fine and we don't need usb-c. It's true, they existed. Nowadays, good luck to find someone arguing that lightning iphones are better than usb-c. I guess it would cost them dearly to recognize that they owe that to the eu regulation. In the us they say vote with your wallet, obviously it didn't work..
  - mavelikara 6mo ago
    > I still remember the people arguing that lightning is just fine and we don't need usb-c. It's true, they existed. Before that, many of them argued that powerpcs were better than x86. :)
maxdo 6mo ago
and now these voices from right wing, that EU is a communistic union resonate more and more. Now they tell you what to do and how to do.not by market forces. if anyone can replace the phone, it's much harder to track how it was recycle with phone with battery. same with cars btw. they trying to change the world by just issuing the order. That usually never works fine.
george916a 6mo ago
Finally!
chrisjj 6mo ago
Replacable charge sockets too please.
- pigeons 6mo ago
  that is THE reason i ended up getting a new phone several times.
  - chrisjj 6mo ago
    Your phone manufacturer loves you.
Arete314159 6mo ago
GOOD.
felixding 6mo ago
Please bring back the 3.5mm headphone jack! Removing it is one of the most annoying things ever in a phone. Yes, Bluetooth is getting better, but the jack always works perfectly. Why can't we have both?
- system2 6mo ago
  The IP rating will degrade the moment they bring it back. The jacks will either corrode or let water inside the phone and kill it entirely. Nobody wants to deal with that giant hole.
  - felixding 6mo ago
    Nah, that was solved decades ago. We had water-resistant phones with headphone jacks, even with replaceable batteries.
tmaly 6mo ago
I honestly would not have upgraded my iPhone 13 Pro if I could have just swapped the battery. That phone seemed to get better battery life than current models.
aussieguy1234 6mo ago
If this happens, all phones worldwide will have replaceable batteries. It makes no financial sense to have EU and non EU models of phones with seperate manufacturing lines...
jdboyd 6mo ago
I certainly understand the value of replaceable batteries. OTOH, I'm concerned about what this will mean for how many common upper end phones are IP67 submersion rated. I don't want that to go back to being a feature only of clunky super expensive phones, and I would rather have IP67 over a replaceable battery. Now, if I'm lucky, they will mandate both a replaceable battery and that the phones be ip55 or better, after battery replacement.
- MattDamonSpace 6mo ago
  Yeah great “let’s just pass a law that says ‘no trade offs’, problem solved”
- dev1ycan 6mo ago
  "I would rather have IP67 over a replaceable battery" Not me, and not most people.
  - 0x1ceb00da 6mo ago
    Have you done a survey?
  - gib444 6mo ago
    You read this in some report right? (surely the same report the EU read to justify this law). So got a link for us?
- cyh555 6mo ago
  You will need to have a factory to replace the battery and also run tests to prove that the phone still works with water then
- enaaem 6mo ago
  Just like how it already work with watches. You can replace batteries yourself, but waterproofing is not guaranteed. If you want to be certain that the waterproof rating is maintained, you have to sent it to an authorised service provider.
losvedir 6mo ago
This is about user replaceable batteries, which is subtly different for me. Batteries that can be replaced by a shop, with some specialized tools and knowledge are important to me from a sustainability perspective since that extends the life of the phone. Batteries that can be popped out and replaced by your average consumer are something beyond that, and have certain consumer benefits like being able to bring along a backup or something, but aren't that important to me.
YZF 6mo ago
I just spent a few hours [this past weekend] trying to replace a battery on an old iPod Touch and botching it (I'll blame my crappy soldering iron). Everything about that was a massive pain, prying the case open, dealing with all the glue inside, de-soldering the old battery. I thought I did everything right but then the thing wouldn't turn on. Could be a bad battery (ordered on Amazon so zero guarantees). Then when I tried to de-solder and re-solder my new battery the pads came off it. Very annoying.
dev1ycan 6mo ago
I don't own EVs but I hope this is forced on EVs (cars and bikes)... that's the only reason I don't buy one.
- aziaziazi 6mo ago
  Most modern eBicycle have a swappable battery. For extra convenience aim for big brands like Bosch or Shimano but other brands are not a huge deal to swap as the voltages are mostly the same: 24, 36, 48. You sometimes need to keep the BMS + connectors part but that’s not a big deal either with a few screwdrivers. Don’t buy non-removable batteries bikes without the advice of a mechanist but those bike are not the norm.
digimantis 6mo ago
Europeans are very good at making companies do unnecessary things.
low_tech_punk 6mo ago
I hope this puts more pressure to extend the software life-span.
CarlJW 6mo ago
What good is a replaceable battery if the device becomes obsoleted by changing communication standards first? How long before 4G and 5G are phased out? What if we could have forward compatibility in our mobile network protocols?
- ycombinatrix 6mo ago
  one step at a time
linzhangrun 6mo ago
[flagged]
danilocesar 6mo ago
I look into my perfect workable Samsung Tab S7+ and remember that it has been an year since the last security update. Now I rely on a few random individuals who, for all I know could be state agents or a ransomware organization to provide unofficial versions of Lineage so I can keep using it. Battery isn't the only problem to avoid e-waste, but it's a start.
- 0x1ceb00da 6mo ago
  Aren't security updates the deciding factor for the life of a phone these days? Manufacturers provide updates for 7 years max which is probably less than the battery life.
linkregister 6mo ago
This is a bad development. This is likely the end of waterproof phones in the EU market. Customers preferred phones that had non-removable batteries. Previously all phones had replaceable batteries. This is due to market forces.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
thelastgallon 6mo ago
Next, do user installable OS. Phones are the costliest gadgets with a dizzying range of sensors/capabilities and more than enough RAM. Its a shame we can't use them for a decade+, giving it a second life.
jinushaun 6mo ago
EU is late by 19 years. No one cares anymore about user replaceable batteries.
system2 6mo ago
So Apple will skip the iPhone 18 replaceable battery? I will wait another year to upgrade my 7-year-old phone, but I wouldn't buy 18 if they don't include this.
yu3zhou4 6mo ago
The system like iOS is still closed. Once Apple ends support for a device, being able to swap a battery won’t help much
pigeons 6mo ago
It feels like life got nerfed when I lost the ability to just swap in my extra battery when my phone died.
golemiprague 6mo ago
[dead]
jillesvangurp 6mo ago
I used to work for Nokia back when they still made phones. Replaceable batteries were very normal then. Phones were a bit thicker than today but not massively so. These days phones are actually thinner but much larger. I had a "are you happy to see me or is that a Nokia" type Nokia 9300. That was a brick. But it had a full hw keyboard. and flipped open it wasn't that much bigger than a modern smart phone. You could argue that the trend towards more energy dense batteries and wireless charging could enable new interesting form factors. Recent phones have magnetic connectors for external wireless chargers/batteries that snap to the back. Most of bulk and weight of a phone is for accommodating batteries. You could make an argument that making a phone with replaceable batteries is easier than ever. Many cameras have a bulge for the camera. The negative space of the rest of the phone could easily hold a swappable battery. How critical are those 3mm really?
- aivisol 6mo ago
  I have my 9300 still in a drawer ( checked ) . Interesting if it is possible to find a replacement battery for it and what functionality would still be usable? A physical SIM, 3G still works…
  - theshrike79 6mo ago
    If it's one of the BL/BH/etc batteries you can still get them. They're somewhat of a standard in DIY circles because they're a familiar form and all of the support stuff for them has existed for decades.
- denkmoon 6mo ago
  If they filled that negative space my phone wouldn't rock annoyingly and sit awkwardly on flat surfaces, and that would be a great shame.
  - argsnd 6mo ago
    If you filled the negative space on an iPhone 17 Pro/Max it would be a horrendously unwieldy phone. People who say this stuff seriously underestimate the disastrous effect on ergonomics increasing the whole phone from 8.75mm to 13.2mm would have.
antifarben 6mo ago
I'm an exception for sure but I have not seen much innovation in the phone space that you'd genuinely make me buy a new phone. Yes, cameras are better now. But some phones had good cameras years ago. I bought new phones mainly because of battery decline and/or not getting security updates. If one of these will be solved, that might change my phone buying behaviour. I don't care whether a display is called "retina" , whether the next edition comes in the colour "space banana grey while lion tiger snail". And I don't need to impress someone by proving that I'm able to buy a new phone either. Such behaviour gives me a good hint what to think about them though. A phone that will have the battery situation solved is a killer argument. Then I'd like to have a software distribution on top that it's "mum compatible" and doesn't need nerd knowledge to maintain. Something that allows to use banking apps. Let's see how it goes. Also I hope that there can be third party batteries without DRM-like behaviour.
- cookiengineer 6mo ago
  To me the best "tradeoff" right now is buying used Fairphones from ebay. It is LineageOS HEAD compatible and has replaceable batteries. But it has some quirks. Medium performance if even that, non working fingerprint sensor. Camera quality from 2005. I don't have gapps installed so I'm using my phone without any type of payment/2fa/banking apps. That decision from opsec makes it easily reflashable, so my anti malware strategy is essentially just reflashing the phone every couple weeks :D My battery usually lasts a week because of using only f-droids chat, navigation, and translation apps for the most part, aside from the browser. I use Firefox with uBlock Origin, saves an insane amount of battery lifetime. To me, repairability is the feature I value the most in a phone, so I'm kinda willing to compromise on the other features. Fun fact: Did you know that WhatsApp, Telegram, and Signal all restart themselves when you connect to your headphones? If you froze them before, they'll just drain your battery again when you have any bluetooth changes. You can easily verify that by staying in airplane mode and freezing them, then connecting your headphones in airplane mode.
- SlinkyOnStairs 6mo ago
  > I'm an exception for sure You're not. This is a big reason why "tech" went so all-in on AI. The era of rapid innovation and rapid growth on phones is over. We hit "peak smartphone" in 2019-2020, look at a chart of iphone or Samsung models. Like a lightswitch they locked in on a specific design. Hell, the more curmudgeon-y will complain that phones have degraded since. Gone is the 3.5mm jack, gone is the SD card slot. "Fuck you, buy our expensive bluetooth junk." "Fuck you buy our cloud storage". (The reality is that consumers appear to prefer bluetooth audio and cloud storage, phones that do still retain the 3.5mm/sd card slot aren't gaining ground in the market. Sony is likely to close down their phone division in the upcoming years despite being one of the last holdouts.) Hence all the desire in tech to find "The next iPhone", and the dozens of attempts to make "AI hardware" despite the fact that literally all of it has failed against the simple question of "why can't this be a smartphone/smartwatch app?" This extends to AI in general. It can't just be a tool with some specific applications, it has to "Change The World", "Be the next iPhone".
cheriot 6mo ago
Anyone know how much harder water resistance gets with replaceable batteries?
ahf8Aithaex7Nai 6mo ago
> Why isn't there any significant demand for replaceable batteries? Most consumers are like pigs who simply eat whatever the market throws into their trough, because ultimately they have better things to do than to get deeply involved in every purchasing decision. > If replaceable batteries were better, they would already be available. Developments like those in the smartphone market involve complex path dependencies. That’s why you can’t simply assume that competition will lead to the product offerings converging on the best product. Furthermore, “better” needs to be defined in some way. If we leave that up to the market, it becomes a circular argument: (1) The better product prevails in the market. (2) The product that prevails in the market is the better one. This circular reasoning is the biggest flaw in market ideology. I don't understand why people can't see that. The market moves in a certain direction, and they say, “There it is—progress!” > Regulation hinders progress. Perhaps, at times, the opposite is true. Even if we set aside the fact that “better” is defined in a circular manner here, the path-dependence of market development sometimes causes the market to get stuck in a local optimum. Regulatory interventions in the market can then serve as an effective lever to help the market break free from that situation. > If you want a removable battery, you're simply in the minority as a consumer. That’s another point where I just don’t get market ideologues: why should I reject regulatory intervention on the one hand, but on the other hand, if the market doesn’t give me what I want, I’m supposed to just shut up and accept that there isn’t enough demand for my quirky, special requests? I’ve been missing removable batteries ever since they disappeared from the market. That must have coincided with the rise of smartphones. Come to think of it, maybe Steve Jobs is to blame. With iPods, there was still a public debate about the issue [1]. With the iPhone, it was just the way it was. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTcavAzopg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTcavAzopg
- Ray20 6mo ago
  > That’s why you can’t simply assume that competition will lead to the product offerings converging on the best product. You also can't simply assume that an existing solution on the market is not the best already. I mean, who told us that smartphones with user-replaceable batteries are better than smartphones that are 0.5 mm thinner because their batteries are non-replaceable? The same people who want to ban encryption? > Regulatory interventions in the market can then serve as an effective lever to help the market break free from that situation. No, they can't. Regulatory processes are shaped by the same incentives as market ones. It's just that the tools for achieving goals are different. And because of this, it is always moving in the opposite direction from "help the market". > I’m supposed to just shut up and accept that there isn’t enough demand for my quirky, special requests? Generally speaking, yes, it is a market ideology. But what's not clear about it? People adhere to it not because they like when unqualified masses, with their consumer behavior, encourage all sorts of nasty things in mass-market products. It's simply better than when a regulatory body implements its "quirky, special requests" at the expense of everyone else.
pllbnk 6mo ago
I find it so weird that European regulation targets very specific niches while avoiding generalization. In order to reduce plastic pollution, they forced manufacturers to make attached bottle caps (terrible idea) but go to the supermarket and there are various fruits and vegetables each unit wrapped in plastic separately. Now they are targeting phones but I also want my handheld and robot vacuum cleaners, electric toothbrushes, grass cutters, etc to also have batteries that can be removed and replaced without tearing down entire device and even learning soldering in some cases.
- jurgenburgen 6mo ago
  > In order to reduce plastic pollution, they forced manufacturers to make attached bottle caps (terrible idea) According to research bottle caps are one of the biggest source of beach litter because they float and end up washed up. They are also exceptionally harmful to animals that confuse them for fish and end up consuming them. I don’t think anyone who is against the bottle caps directive is serious about protecting our environment. It’s a minor change with an outsized impact.
  - zeafoamrun 6mo ago
    Every airport in Europe has no water filling stations so you have to buy a plastic bottle with the stupid attached bottle cap. So green!
    - petesergeant 6mo ago
      > has no water filling stations Wouldn't you just fill it up from ... a tap in the washroom?
      - dombiscoff 6mo ago
        Depends on the countries water quality. Some countries don't have water good for drinking, and others have poor taste which many are put off by. That being said, many EU airports do have water refill machines. Germanys airports for example..
mos87 6mo ago
seems reasonable on its own, but knowing the track record of EU regulations... Even this sounds dodgy
louiskhub 6mo ago
https://archive.ph/INeg6 https://archive.ph/INeg6
nick486 6mo ago
good. now do the software enshittification part, which is the real driver of device obsolescence. being able to replace the battery is nice, but if the new battery lasts half as long because the software needs twice as much resources to perform the same tasks - you're not really fixing anything.
merelysounds 6mo ago
Bonus: reasonably accessible replaceable batteries double up as a hardware off switch.
trizoza 6mo ago
What if they also mandate that each phone manufacturer has to bring back iPhone 4 sized phones. Just saying. But would be great.
ymolodtsov 6mo ago
The EU with its mama energy again. I use 15 Pro. I don't like the new aluminium iPhones much. So I just went it to Apple service center and had the battery replaced. It costs just 90 euros and I now have a brand new phone, basically. I very much prefer my phone to be thinner, water resistant, and have a larger battery compared to being able to do it myself.
- gregoriol 6mo ago
  The law is not about you, but about everyone: 1) Apple doesn't have service centers everywhere: some countries/cities/small towns don't have them 2) Apple doesn't provide service for older devices 3) making it easier doesn't mean you'll be able to swap them live as we did in the 90s, but it means you could do it at home with a reasonable set of tools instead of sending the device to some shop that would need to unglue, unsolder, ...
  - throwawaymobule 6mo ago
    Out of the 27 EU countries, there are only apple stores in 8 of them.
- artificialprint 6mo ago
  Why pay 90 when it could be 20
OldTechIsCool1 6mo ago
[dead]
cottsak 6mo ago
The US can't regulate it's own economy so the EU has to do it for them
rldjbpin 6mo ago
phones are indeed becoming more repairable, and the legislation is working upto an extent. on the other hand, mandating easier to repair components is ineffective if the manufacturer does not support the parts sale or use parts otherwise widely available in the market. this goes beyond for other consumer electronics. in the world of laptops, which are generally more repairable, i've had my own experience with a mid-range one from lenovo, the largest vendor worldwide. [1] the laptop was from the covid-era and one of the refresh of their popular lineup which has seen minimal changes under the hood. despite that, when i had to replace its fans and battery, i had to look for third-party sellers for the components. they are quite easy to replace but as a regular consumer it is tricky to find the correct parts and not overspend on them. maybe with the new silicon carbide batteries, we could have a "nokia bl-5c" moment, without the counterfeit explody part. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/267018/global-market-share-held-by-pc-vendors/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/267018/global-market-sha...
waterproof 6mo ago
Great, now do storage! People shouldn't have to pay $$$ for a 128GB upgrade when a 1TB microSDXC card is under $200. It feels like a trick to sell cloud storage and new phones.
hequmania 6mo ago
This is great news. Every once in a while something good comes out of EU. Now of course, our US friends are telling myriads of reasons why this is obviously stupid and unnecessary. But it's not. Letting users actually maintain their devices is only smart.
streetfighter64 6mo ago
Replacing the battery on my iphone takes 30 minutes and the only tools needed are a couple of screwdrivers and a new display adhesive. In exchange, the phone is a lot more waterproof. For me, it's a good tradeoff. What's next? Mandating that the screens be "replaceable" as well? Having used a fairphone before, I can tell from experience that easily replaceable parts are more prone to breaking from dust and moisture etc.
inverno303 6mo ago
[dead]
spacephysics 6mo ago
Bit tinfoil hat, but outside of the phone becoming thinner and other design benefits with integrated batteries, I largely think the intelligence community has an aligned interest to keep phone batteries from being hot-swappable like pre-iphone days. Given the drafts vs final version of the bill/policy, looks like the battery now must be more easily replaced vs true camera-like battery hot swap. Even with an iPhone turned off, NSA can still listen: https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-iphone/ https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-iphone/
ubermonkey 6mo ago
I get the impulse, but I do not think this mandate is a good idea. I didn't think the USB-C mandate was a good idea, either.
raks619 6mo ago
[dead]
ramenat2am 6mo ago
I wish they actually standardised the USB-C with actual data transfer and charging protocols inside, not just the physical shape of the port. It's a total mess these days. Why PD and QC are even different protocols? Why there are USB 2.0, USB 3.0 and then there are 3.2 gen 1 and 3.2 gen 2? And what about Thunderbolt?
- ThrowawayTestr 6mo ago
  >Why there are USB 2.0, USB 3.0 and then there are 3.2 gen 1 and 3.2 gen 2? The first is half a gigabit, the second is 5Gbit, then 10 then 20.
ChoGGi 6mo ago
Hey, my phone has a replaceable battery. It only took me four or so hours to replace it...
treebeard901 6mo ago
Being able to remove your phone battery also stops all tracking and surveillance for that device. If that sort of thing matters to you.
- lxgr 6mo ago
  Which tracking and surveillance stays on on a device shut down but the battery not removed?
  - treebeard901 5mo ago
    Most phones are not really off when shut down with the battery still inside. It is still responding to E911 services and other forms of tracking. I know this will try to be debunked that if the phone is off, there is no power or communication to the various radios and transmitters. But there are different power states depending on your phone and firmware. You're only really "off the grid" when the battery is removed or you have a faraday bag.
fjjfnrnr 6mo ago
Please add laptops to the list. I have never felt the need to replace a smartphone or tablet battery due to terrible software support in the long run But laptops? Most 10 year old laptops would be fine for daily use, if only the battery would not be a hazard
chewz 6mo ago
Not all but few. Read the directive - IP67 or 1000 charges and the model is excluded
motbus3 6mo ago
The batteries are critical but sometimes companies will also package the storage in same chip as CPU and ram which means that you have a dead processor when your storage wears out
nurettin 6mo ago
Why don't they do something useful like "phones will get perpetual software updates" ? Without security updates, slack, bank software etc. will refuse to install and your phone will be a brick with replaceable batteries in 5-10 years. Or a single utility device.

1446 points by ramonga 6mo ago

Batteries have been used as part of planned obsolescence for too long and a whole small business industry of replacing phone batteries has appeared because of it. Next the EU are going to have to address security patches because its another aspect being used to sell new phones.

thaumasiotes 6mo ago
> Batteries have been used as part of planned obsol[esc]ence for too long and a whole small business industry of replacing phone batteries has appeared because of it. Note that early phones had replaceable batteries and it was later phones that dropped that feature. The idea wasn't that making the phone impossible to open would compel people to replace their phone faster; it was that given that people didn't keep their phones long enough to wear out the battery, there was no need to make the battery accessible.
- haritha-j 6mo ago
  This might be partially true, but making them inacessible is still a great way approach to planned obsolescence and there's no way this was not part of the motivation. The fact that an entire industry exists to provide replacement batteries is proof of this, as is the fact that Apple offers a £100 battery replacement. They also replace the batteries of all refurbished models they sell, which again wouldn't be necessary if battery life wasn't a concern over the useful life of a phone. Secondly, what you said may have been true in the past, when smartphones were rapidly evolving and upgrade cycles were short, but people are holding on to their devices for longer now, so its possible its becoming a problem again.
- hgoel 6mo ago
  Upgrade cycles have slowed down in recent years, the improvements are relatively incremental nowadays. Screens, durability, processors, storage sizes, cameras, even battery life are okay-ish and aren't improving quickly enough to justify the same upgrade rate. Foldables are basically the only big innovation in recent years, but are still a little too fragile and expensive. This is also reflected in the increasing support durations from major manufacturers.
- darkwater 6mo ago
  That was true 15-20 years ago. Nowadays changing the phone is basically because: 1) battery dying / not lasting enough 2) shattered glasses whose replacement costs 35-40% of the cost of the phone new (for budget/mid-range phones, not everybody has iPhones) distant 3rd) not enough free internal storage
  - yangm97 6mo ago
    Unrelated note but, cheap/midrange phones are a scam, you almost always get better value purchasing a second hand premium one.
    - NoGravitas 6mo ago
      Eh, I don't find my Pixel 8 to be notably better in any way that I notice or care about than the Moto G that it replaced, except for the fact that it runs GrapheneOS.
    - aembleton 6mo ago
      How is buying a midrange phone new a scam? Just because a second hand premium one is better value (assuming you don't place any value on being brand new). You buy it knowing full well that it isn't a premium device but most people don't need a premium device. Are non-premium new cars a scam too?
      - garbagewoman 6mo ago
        How is it not a scam?
        aembleton 6mo ago
        It is clear what you are buying
  - infecto 6mo ago
    Batteries are generally a cheap fix from third party stores. If you wanted to keep the phone why not spend the small dollars and just replace the battery?
- stavros 6mo ago
  This was true back when Moore's law was the driver of obsolescence. You bought a new phone every year simply because next year's phone was twice as fast. Now that this doesn't happen, the driver of obsolescence is the battery, which is much less defensible because you can swap it much more easily than "the whole internals of the phone".
  - ButlerianJihad 6mo ago
    [dead]
- detourdog 6mo ago
  Batteries on early cell phones needed to be replaced multiple times a day. I remember talk time of like 10 minutes on my motorola StarTec.
  - Aachen 6mo ago
    1996, for anyone else wondering Not sure how comparable that is when considering that the devices are also commonly required as ticket on public transport with no offline fallback (going so far as to include animations on the screen so you can't send a screenshot to a friend or print it out -- no, I have no idea why they think you can't send a video to a friend). Having 10 minutes of use time is simply not on the table, and GP was probably not talking about that class of phones (pre-"smart" phone) in the first place
    - detourdog 6mo ago
      https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-power-reserve-sec90cd29d1f/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-...
      - deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
      - Aachen 6mo ago
        ok? If it dies after 10 minutes and then lets you use a select number of compatible smartcards for another 5, that's not quite the level I think people are talking about here
        detourdog 6mo ago
        If running out of power is super critical carrying a power pack is just as simple as replacement battery. It also more generally useful as it can charge lots devices other then phones. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/external-battery-packs/usb-c-portable-chargers-power-banks/pcmcat1706299718467.c?id=pcmcat1706299718467 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/external-battery-packs/usb-c-po...
- m-schuetz 6mo ago
  Nowadays batteries seem to be doing pretty good, though. I've got a galax s20 fe, and the battery is still fine after 5 years.
  - Aachen 6mo ago
    Nice! As a heads up, don't be tempted to replace the battery via a third party if the Samsung battery ever stops meeting expectations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834810
wasmitnetzen 6mo ago
The EU already requires 5 years of patches since last year. Motorola thinks they have found a loophole, so there are still some, ahem, patches needed to the law.
- Aachen 6mo ago
  Do you have more info about this? I recommended Motorola phones to people based on a combination of price, their needs, and expected longevity (at least 5y now with the new update and replacement part requirements). If that's not the case then I want to update my recommendations
  - oblio 6mo ago
    https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules-durable-energy-efficient-and-repairable-smartphones-and-tablets-start-applying-2025-06-20_en https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/news/new-eu-rules...
    - catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
      motorolanis not mentioned there
      - oblio 6mo ago
        No company is mentioned there...
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      I don't see the word loophole on that page. Would there's no way the EU will provide that information so I'm not going to comb through that page looking for, and speculating on, what GP could possibly have meant... Could you be anymore specific about what part of this is the loophole that Motorola allegedly found?
      - oblio 6mo ago
IMTDb 6mo ago
I have found out that the main phone providers (Apple, Google, Samsung) have extremely long support period. I really don't get the "planned obsolescence" thing. As an example, in Jan 2026, Apple published iOS 12.5.8 which provides updates for iPhone 5s which released in Sept 2013. That's 12.5 years ago. The equivalent would be to connect to the internet using ADSL in Jan 2000 with your IBM PS/2 rocking in intel 8086, 512 kb of RAM and expecting an update for your DOS operating system.
- gruez 6mo ago
  >As an example, in Jan 2026, Apple published iOS 12.5.8 which provides updates for iPhone 5s which released in Sept 2013. That's 12.5 years ago. The equivalent would be to connect to the internet using ADSL in Jan 2000 with your IBM PS/2 rocking in intel 8086, 512 kb of RAM and expecting an update for your DOS operating system. The updates for ios 12 are all security updates, not feature updates, so your comparison to "connect to the internet using ADSL in Jan 2000 with your IBM PS/2 rocking in intel 8086" doesn't really make sense. The phones stuck on ios 15 are basically unusable because many apps don't support it anymore. At best you can download an older version from a few years ago, but that depends on whether the backend servers were updated. Apps that insist you use the latest version (eg. banking/finance apps) basically unusable.
  - brainwad 6mo ago
    A phone is not unusable because some banking apps don't work on it. It didn't even ship with said apps installed.
    - gruez 6mo ago
      Believe it or not, "apps" are an important "feature" of a smartphone, even if it's not theoretically bundled with it. Moreover it's not just banking apps, those are just the first ones to go, but any that don't keep backend compatibility will eventually break.
      - usef- 6mo ago
wolvoleo 6mo ago
> Next the EU are going to have to address security patches because its another aspect being used to sell new phones. They already are. 5 years of updates is now the legal minimum in the EU. https://www.osnews.com/story/142500/new-eu-rules-mandate-five-years-of-os-updates-for-smartphones-and-tablets/ https://www.osnews.com/story/142500/new-eu-rules-mandate-fiv...
tombert 6mo ago
I dunno, my wife has has the same iPhone 11 Pro Max since 2020. She had to get the battery replaced once at an Apple store, which I believe cost $99, and it took like thirty minutes and it wasn't that hard. I'll admit it's a little annoying that I have to pay a hundred bucks to get the battery replaced, but the phone is otherwise fine and still gets updates, so I don't know that I buy that it's "planned obsolescence".
- johanyc 6mo ago
  It's planned obsolescence through price. Your wife paid >50% of the phone's value just to replace the battery. Many people won't think that's worth it. It could have been a $30 user replaceable battery.
  - bitmasher9 6mo ago
    Or she spent 7% of the purchase price of a new device to defer requiring to upgrade for another 3 years. $100 is worth it, but you can get a good discount by going to that one mall kiosk instead of the Apple Store.
    - Alpha3031 6mo ago
      > you can get a good discount by going to that one mall kiosk instead of the Apple Store. Apple actively impeded third-party repair shops though. Oregon had to outlaw parts pairing for them to change that practice.
    - johanyc 5mo ago
      > I don't know that I buy that it's "planned obsolescence". I'm responding to this. It might be worth it for your wife. But if for a lot of people, paying $100 to revive a 6 year old phone is a bad deal, then it's planned obsolescence
- AdrianB1 6mo ago
  Imagine you can order a battery from Apple for $20 and you swap it in 1 minute: less money, less time, user satisfaction++.

twilo 6mo ago

If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt from this, which is exactly what Apple implemented a few years ago. Low cost phones will be most affected.

oybng 6mo ago
Is 1000 cycles above 80% even possible without gimping the device like apple does with all its hardware?
mschuster91 6mo ago
> Low cost phones will be most affected. Not really. Take a 4000 mAh rated cell, advertise it as "rated for 3500 mAh" and that's it.
- LeonidasXIV 6mo ago
  Isn't this pretty much what Nothing are doing? At least one of their phones has a different battery rating in India than elsewhere, despite containing the same hardware.
raverbashing 6mo ago
Funnily enough I've had a "low cost phone" with replaceable batteries (the "old school way") So it does not seem a big deal
Hamuko 6mo ago
Wish they'd have implemented it before the iPhone 14 Pro launched. I'm at 624 cycles right now and my phone's gone below 80% fucking ages ago.
- frizlab 6mo ago
  > The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools I’m pretty sure that’s more or less already the case, so…
- jkestner 6mo ago

nslsm 6mo ago

Damn, recently I had a phone with a battery that wasn’t properly glued and it would turn off when shaken. I hope this doesn’t become the norm from now on.

dragontamer 6mo ago
Behold: the widget of the future. A spring.
IsTom 6mo ago
Never had this issue with several cellphones I had in ye olden times when all cellphones had removable batteries. All it takes is a properly designed connector.
- Hamuko 6mo ago
  Yeah, none of my Nokias with a removable back cover and battery had that issue. What you realistically might've had was instead that you dropped your phone on the floor and the battery came flying out.

daoboy 6mo ago

I understood that the move to non-replaceable batteries was at least partially driven by water resistance *Edit. Not sure why people are downvoting. I didn't make a positive declaration. HN didn't used to be this way for completely milquetoast comments.

Aachen 6mo ago
Galaxy S5 was IP67-rated (1 metre depth, 30 minutes) and had a user-replaceable back cover / battery Also a notification LED, OLED screen, bezels to pick the device up by, headphone jack, unlockable, a continuous light sensor... peak smartphone, save perhaps for the meager 200 Hz accelerometer refresh rate (modern phones have 500 Hz usually, I have no idea what for but I personally love toying with FFT plots)
- raw_anon_1111 6mo ago
  If the headphone port flap was perfectly sealed….
  - BenjiWiebe 6mo ago
    *charge port flap
    - Aachen 6mo ago
      Waterproof phones all still have charging ports and no flaps. Not sure how but that seems to be solved. Maybe that one part's connectors are encased in glue?
haritha-j 6mo ago
It probably makes things easier, but its unlikely that the industry that found a way to make foldables waterproof couldn't figure out a way to put rubber gaskets on battery covers. And in fact, they did, there were several devices introduced in the transition period that had both features.

999900000999 6mo ago

>The regulation states that batteries must be removable using ‘commercially available’ tools This is doing a lot of work here. There's enough wiggle room for this to be absolutely meaningless. Anything short of I can slide off the back cover and maybe unscrew two or three screws to replace the battery means that a lot of people are going to end up not being able to replace the batteries.

napolux 6mo ago
better than glued.
- mminer237 6mo ago
  Heat guns and pryers are commercially available. I don't think this will change anything there.
  - napolux 6mo ago
    Also Stanley's Fubar and CAT 797 trucks are commercially available, doesn't mean I will need one of those to change my phone battery :)
  - kotaKat 6mo ago
    And Pentalobe screwdrivers are also commercially available now, so Apple doesn't even have to include one...
  - fainpul 6mo ago
    You're wrong about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530
    - mminer237 6mo ago
      Thanks. I couldn't find the text for the life of me. Glad to be wrong.
6mo ago

hparadiz 6mo ago

Now do screens.

oever 6mo ago
and software.

concinds 6mo ago

Seems to me like the top goal should be: you can easily replace the most-likely-to-break parts (screen, back, battery, etc) in any local independent repair shop, with genuine parts that have low markups. I'm confused why that still isn't the case today given all the EU headlines we've seen over the years.

tossaway0 6mo ago
Low markups wouldn't be the main issue in the EU, though it would help. It's labor cost because it takes skill, specialized tools, and time. If the shop could replace the battery with nothing more niche than a torx bit in 5 minutes we wouldn't be talking about this.

1970-01-01 6mo ago

They (Samsung, Apple, etc.) should never have been allowed to glue it behind the screen. Threaded fasteners and a silicone gasket cover is good enough for 99.999% of the public use-case.

rimliu 6mo ago
> is good enough for 99.999% of the public use-case You know this how, exactly?
- 1970-01-01 6mo ago
  Via firsthand observation of people in the world. Go ahead and check the number of people on the street that need the edge case of using the phone under IEC standard 60529. Now go ahead and check out how many people on the street want to be able to replace their battery.

pnathan 6mo ago

This is good. I recently had to replace a generally working phone because the battery was dying and there was no cost effective & reliable means of replacing. A proper gasket and screws needs to be the standard solution here.

gcanyon 6mo ago

Yikes, I don't live in the EU, but I absolutely don't want this. Maybe I'm mistaken and they could have achieved the same with removable batteries, but my phone is completely waterproof, dustproof, and has survived more than a few hard drops with no case. I would definitely take that over a replaceable battery. Again, I acknowledge they might not be mutually exclusive.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
w4yai 6mo ago
I don't have the same experience at all. For me, battery life is the #1 reason of obsolescence of my smartphones.
Someone1234 6mo ago
With respect, maybe read the article? You're against it, because you didn't read what is being mandated and instead just invented worst-case scenarios instead. You're against your own Strawman. The proposal is: batteries must be removable using commercially available tools, if the manufacturer requires specialist tools then they must provide them for free. Essentially they're banning specialized tools, and mandating that repair shops and consumers must be able to purchase replacement batteries for "at least five years." For context the iPhone was already altered to be compliant with this law and none of the issues you raised were notably worse in the iPhone Air, or 17. This likely will eliminate specialist software to "sync" batteries, and non-standard screws/attachment mechanisms.
- Noumenon72 6mo ago
  > You're against your own Strawman. > The proposal is: batteries must be removable using commercially available tools That's exactly what he's against, plus the premise "Making batteries removable prevents them from being waterproof, dustproof, and collision resistant". Which may be true or false, but not a straw man.
  - 6mo ago

azalemeth 6mo ago

This is excellent news. Now make them have user-unlockable and user-relockable bootloaders...

system2 6mo ago
You wish.

oever 6mo ago

Awesome! And next, hopefully, replaceable software. Which will do much more for phone longevity.

infecto 6mo ago

I am simply not a fan of this type of legislation. It reminds me of CA bullet button. I also don’t quite understand the purpose. Official retail cost from Apple in the US ~$120. Third-party you can usually get it around $60. Sure the battery does not have quick accessibility but I can replace it pretty cheaply.

tristanj 6mo ago
Agreed. This rule will likely be irrelevant in 5-10 years when battery technology improves, and it has such a huge carve out (batteries that maintain 80% capacity after 1000 cycles are exempt) every phone manufacture can get around it. Phone makers can meet this regulation by artificially limiting battery capacity through software to protect battery health. Or they could put in a 10,000 mAh battery and only allow the user to use 8,000 of it, and use the rest as buffer. A better example is the EU cookie consent law. The intent was to make websites stop using cookies, but what resulted was websites didn't change anything except put up annoying consent banners, and made the internet experience worse.
- datadrivenangel 6mo ago
  If the battery lasts 10 years basically then that's fair, but ease of repair is very useful.
jacekm 6mo ago
$60 has different value in other parts of the world.
- infecto 6mo ago
  Sure but how does this legislation help that? Not to mention that would mean labor is going to be a lot cheaper so the largest cost may be the battery itself. That $60 would come down.

gib444 6mo ago

Have they researched durability with replaceable batteries and can promise us phones won't break more often?

Aachen 6mo ago
Don't remember that being necessary to taketh away, and now that they're required to giveth it back we don't want it anymore?!

yyy3 6mo ago

Phone manufacturers should be able to seal their phones to prevent unwanted substance egress and to compete on aesthetics. They should also make the seal breachable with consumer-grade hand tools like a hairdryer, suction cup, and plastic wedges. The inside of the phone should use standard screws and securing mechanisms, and batteries should not be glued to the phone. I actually really like what Apple's been doing with its new batteries by sealing them in metal. That way if a user is being careless and accidentally slips a screwdriver under the back of their phone, the risk that they puncture their battery and start a fire is greatly reduced. It secures the most dangerous component of your device in a way that makes it easy for anyone to remove and replace safely. I'm sure Apple has a robot to rip the battery out of its case at its recycling plant, and if the phone gets dropped in a lake or something, if that battery eventually catastrophically fails, at least it's wrapped in a suit of armor.

schubidubiduba 6mo ago

Recently replaced the battery and charging port of my Fairphone. 5 screws, two plucked components, done. Hopefully this means that soon you won't have to buy a specific company's phone for this marvelous experience.

tristanj 6mo ago
The Fairphone 5 is only IP55 rated (dust protected, and water droplet resistant). Most flagship phones are IP68 rated (fully dust sealed, and water submersible). IP68 phones are sealed with a single-use adhesive gasket, and replacing battery requires breaking (and replacing) this seal. If the seal is improperly applied, the phone is no longer protected from dust or water.
- Aachen 6mo ago
  There is also a middle ground of IP67 from the Samsung Galaxy S5. I'm personally fine with the Fairphone level (they clearly prioritise easy and frequent disassembly; that's their entire brand) but for someone who wants to be able to submerge it just below the surface and walk through pouring rain for hours, that would be enough
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

mentalgear 6mo ago

I was looking forward to finally be able to easily switch out (i)Phone batteries again - after 20 years - but turns out the lobbyists managed to get a loophole in the law - exempting Apple & Co from making their phones more repairable / longer live-able. > If a battery can do 1000 cycles and remain above 80% capacity it is exempt

AshamedCaptain 6mo ago
Yes, this is the most non-story I have ever seen on this topic. I do not know of any manufacturer who does not claim this, verifiable or otherwise; and even if they can't claim it, all they have to do is one minor purely-software capacity adjustment, which they will gladly do before they will even consider offering removable batteries. What a disappointment.
- close04 6mo ago
  Apple has no chance to claim their batteries can have 80% capacity after 1000 cycles seeing how they never achieved this so far. Lying about it puts them in a world of mass recalls and fraud investigations.
  - less_less 6mo ago
    I'm pretty the spec sheet claimed 1000 cycles when I bought my iPhone 17. They do claim it at least for iPhone 15 "under ideal conditions": https://support.apple.com/en-us/101575 https://support.apple.com/en-us/101575
    - close04 6mo ago
      VW engine specs said some things about emissions. It’s fine to have unrealistic specs if there are no consequences. The f there’s a law about it they’re far more exposed to people catching a lie or at least an unrealistic estimate.
  - bombcar 6mo ago
    Depends on how "cycle" is defined - I'm sure they can finagle it so "any charge added to the battery" counts as a cycle. As a datapoint my iPhone reports 522 cycles and 89% max - from march 2024. I do use the "limit charging to 80%" feature which I suspect may become mandatory before 2027 ...

larusso 6mo ago

So this means no iPhone Air 2 in Europe? I can hardly see Apple wiggle around the special tools requirement when these batteries are glued and sealed shut in the devices. [edit] didn’t see the fine print with the cycles requirement etc. so it seems Apple etc is still safe.

alternatex 6mo ago
Was there ever a plan for an iPhone Air 2? They're struggling to sell the stock they have.

bhouston 6mo ago

Will this affect the water-resistance of current iPhones? I thought that was why the batteries are not easily replaceable by users, because of the seals/gaskets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dyL6hMZvWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dyL6hMZvWQ

kristjank 6mo ago
Most wristwatches provide much stronger water resistance while still being very user serviceable with a $20 watch tool kit. Whatever the phone makers are peddling are mostly excuses.
- prism56 6mo ago
  Also the latest pixel watch has a new mechanism without glue that has a rubber gasket and screws.
tencentshill 6mo ago
Galaxy S5 worked quite well. IP67 and a removable battery.
- giobox 6mo ago
  While I'd be perfectly content with an IP67 iPhone with interchangeable battery, the current iPhones are IP68 which is a significant step up in dust/water ingress protection. IP68 devices generally require a sealant, IP67 normally doesn't, making it easier to do a battery hatch etc.
  - cybrox 6mo ago
    IP68 doesn't require a sealant if you just use enough pressure. Phones are just too thin to screw on the back plate and use a proper gasket. Which is stupid in the first place because most people then go and put a bulky cover on them.
    - deleted 6mo ago

ape4 6mo ago

As a non-European I want to say: thanks EU

Bad_CRC 6mo ago

Gigaset makes IP68/MIL-STD-810H smartphones with removable batteries and sold the battery for 30€, don't fall for the "but watterproof".

dkobia 6mo ago

It seems like the whole world could massively benefit from this much like the other great innovation out of the EU -- the Common Charger Directive (aka USB-C).

Fokamul 6mo ago

I hope someday EU will implement requirements for phones -> You must be able to flash any firmware (OS) on your phone, without any restrictions. This is much more important, than batteries.

cgannett 6mo ago

Hopefully the EU can get the battery situation to mirror the charging cable situation. IE force them all to adopt an industry standard.

gbeardish 6mo ago

They should extend the principle to laptops, obviously.

nomel 6mo ago
I think most (all?) would already comply. What laptop do you see as not having a user replacable battery? Even MacBook can be swapped out pretty easily [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgTon2jqI-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgTon2jqI-A
- gbeardish 6mo ago
  I won't name brands, but there are lots of low cost "tablet with keyboard" laptops with glued battery. Just a couple of months ago I had to ditch one. Anyway, if most comply, why not make it mandatory? Or are these kind of directives only aimed at picking fights with manufacturers? Note that I am not suggesting that all laptops should have USB-C chargers, that's a separate directive. I mean user replaceable batteries available for at least 5 years, without requiring major surgery to replace.
- fainpul 6mo ago
  MacBooks are not easy at all. I did it twice and it's an annoying, dangerous mess (danger of tearing the battery open). Apple won't even bother with it. If you want an "official job", they will just replace the whole top shell including the keyboard, because they can't be bothered to remove the glue. And of course it's expensive because of that.
  - nomel 6mo ago
    8 minutes to complete, using only a screw driver and credit card, once every three or four years, is definitely "annoying". But, I'd still say it's also "pretty easy" (I never said "easy"). My reference frame may be different than yours.
    - fainpul 6mo ago

Havoc 6mo ago

Neat. That may allow repurposing phones as mini home servers too. Lithium batteries in things running 24/7 unsupervised always makes me a bit nervous

binaryturtle 6mo ago

How about computers to have replaceable SSDs? There's no point you can exchange the battery when the hard-soldered SSD dies first. (I had more dead SSDs than batteries)

krs_ 6mo ago
And get rid of soldered RAM while we're at it as well.
cybrox 6mo ago
At least there's a choice there. I've never bought a computer with a soldered-on SSD.
surgical_fire 6mo ago
This should be mandatory, although I never had a computer where the SSD was not replaceable. Some were a bit of a pain in the ass to replace though.

mytailorisrich 6mo ago

Considering that this, and other, regulation is officially aimed at reducing e-waste, the EU should commit to publish independent data on the amount of e-waste and phones replacement rates now and every year afterwards in order to measure the real world impact. Too often, including in HN comments, those regulations are presented as "obviously" good policies. Well, data are better than assumptions.

Aachen 6mo ago
I don't know if this is standard, but at least for some previously enacted electronics regulations I know they look into the real-world effects. I think I was looking for information on how they calculate the battery life for the new smartphone energy labels (e.g. is the browsing test over WiFi or the LTE/NR modem) when I found some document about how much energy they're expecting to save with this regulation. It showed a base path of expected energy consumption development, and then how the regulation is expected to modify that Edit: not the one I saw before, but found a similar document via https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu -> policy making -> "EIA reports and related analyses" -> 2025 overview report https://circabc.europa.eu/ui/group/418195ae-4919-45fa-a959-3b695c9aab28/library/c06608a7-9e47-4737-b0d2-da9aec097171/details https://circabc.europa.eu/ui/group/418195ae-4919-45fa-a959-3... -> see e.g. the graphic at the top of page 79 The shaded area is the effect that they think is attributable to regulations, e.g. -2.2TWh electricity per year in the category of phones and tablets when comparing 2010 and 2030 As another example, for "Servers and data storage products" they expect almost no change due to regulation: the consumption is expected to go from 48 to 67 TWh (2010 till 2030) and that it would have been 70 TWh without regulations. If I'm reading it right, this small improvement would be due to the 2019 "information requirement ... including the maximum allowed operating temperature for the equipment ... to stimulate data centres to choose equipment that supports higher operating temperatures, to enable further reduction of the cooling load." Page 42 shows that they also take into account 'additional acquisition costs' (how much more expensive devices are because of this, I think that means?), but that this added expense is well below the energy costs that would have been incurred otherwise. Of course, that's what I'd say too about my regulations :) but I don't know of another information source for this so this is the best info I have atm

int32_64 6mo ago

I still sometimes miss the Samsung Galaxy I had that had a microSD slot, a removable battery, and a headphone jack. Phones have lost so much in a decade.

precommunicator 6mo ago
I have a Samsung Galaxy from 2022 that has exactly that and it's still supported by manufacturer. Unfortunately it's a Samsung Galaxy Tab Active4 Pro.
Aachen 6mo ago
Same but from the other side. The new phone (without SD, removable battery, or headphone jack) is already acquired and laying in my drawer, but I have yet to bite into the lemon and start making the switch. Too damn convenient compared to the abstract threat of software updates... I'm dreading the new situation so much

noja 6mo ago

Hot swap batteries! Who's going to offer THAT first?

MBCook 6mo ago

I thought USB-C was already required.

nkmnz 6mo ago

Well, 9 more months until I’m going to replace my iPhone 12!

konschubert 6mo ago

Aren't today's phone batteries already replaceable with commercially available tools? I can walk into a non-apple store with my iPhone and walk out with a replaced battery 20 minutes later. This isn't even what drives obsolesce of phones, it's software updates. If you really want to be able to self-swap your own battery, you can just buy an Android that has a replaceable battery. Do we need to regulate something that isn't a problem? All regulation has downsides, is it worth paying this price here?

OutOfHere 6mo ago
People shouldn't have to go to a special store or buy special tools requiring special skills to change a battery.
- throwaway27448 6mo ago
  I'd rather my phone be waterproof than have a battery I can replace myself
  - bombcar 6mo ago
    It's likely impossible to legislate but it would be nice to say "each generation has to have one user-replaceable battery". Everyone who doesn't care (the 99%) can buy the iPhone 19x, and the people who want replaceable batteries can get the iPhone B.
    - konschubert 6mo ago
      Then the 99% have to pay extra to subsidise the compliance phone for the 1%...
  - OutOfHere 6mo ago
    Why do you imply that the phone could no longer be waterproof? Granted, it would take a bit of extra engineering to make it comparably waterproof. There is no reasonable implication that water needs to leak into the internals of the device where it makes contact with the battery.

cmos 6mo ago

What if we regulate batteries even more? i.e. what if, in some magical perfect world, the world get's together and agrees on batteries for phones like how we agree on AA,AAA,D,C batteries? Even more though.. a standard connector, a standard comms bus, a variety of sizes, and they were designed for reuse as efficiently as possible. Now we can scale up volume, swap them out, be free to purchase from a different manufacturer, and have scaled up recycling services.

PunchyHamster 6mo ago
Phones would be hard because manufacturers want to fill every square mm of it, but we can start with power tools batteries...
- rootusrootus 6mo ago
  Power tools have lots of empty space in the battery case already, and most just use 18650s. We could mandate making the cells directly reachable. Phones are definitely a more difficult use case.
- throwawaymobule 6mo ago
  Some manufacturers in the industry are already standardising on one or two designs since a few years ago.
MrDrMcCoy 6mo ago
I'd settle for requiring the battery specs to be fully available, and that they can't be made difficult to manufacture without good reason. Ideally, there should be some set of standard protocols/connectors/voltages/sizes, but the manufacturer should only be held to "downward-compliance" with at least one of them, so they can have flexibility in design but still leave a suboptimal standard option available to users as a fallback.
Postosuchus 6mo ago
That's an excellent idea! It will work out absolutely great - much like Communism. Meaning, when you forcefully standardize and regulate how phones are built, you might expect that companies will not compete on making better phones (since they are not very much differentiated) but on who produces the cheapest phone.

tzs 6mo ago

> The move comes amid EU-wide efforts to cut the continent’s carbon footprint and tackle mounting waste [...] ... > [...] if specialised tools are required, they must be provided free of charge when the phone or tablet is purchased. So if a family buys several phones and tablets that all use the same specialized tool to change their batteries they end up with several identical specialized tools? From a reducing waste perspective wouldn't it be better to just require that the tool be available for free for some reasonable amount of time such as however long the manufacturer is required to support the device?

surgical_fire 6mo ago
[dead]

everyone 6mo ago

Awesome! hopefully apple will just stop selling their filth here entirely.

kevin_thibedeau 6mo ago

They need a standardized battery. Something with common terminals and width available in a range of thicknesses and lengths would be ideal.

thangalin 6mo ago

While this is a good step forward, it feels like complaining about the 0.025% of plastic from straws in the ocean while ignoring the 75% of plastic from fishing nets. I own a 2020 Kona EV. The battery cannot be upgraded. Eventually, I'll have to replace the entire car to get a longer range. BEVs should be mandated to have upgradable batteries and modular interfaces so that the shell can continue to be reused, the batteries (and BMS) upgraded, and old batteries easily recycled.

functionmouse 6mo ago
it's all virtue signalling. Always has been.
- ezst 6mo ago
  Disagree. I want a replaceable battery in my phone. They can get to extensible memory next. And it's not because you don't care about something that you should remove this freedom from me. And don't tell me that the market will self regulate in the best interests of the consumer or other nonsense like that.
  - vel0city 6mo ago
    I want replaceable CPU and memory in my phone as well. I demand the government force device manufacturers to use socketed CPUs using standardized sockets and SO-DIMM memory. And it's not because you don't care about something that you should remove this freedom from me.
    - ezst 6mo ago
      I mean, why not? Fairphones showed it can be done, to an extent. At least this should be pursued. One step at a time, though.
      - vel0city 6mo ago
        Fairphones absolutely do not have a socketed CPU and user replaceable memory. Each generation has one mainboard with soldered components, which I don't see listed as a part to replace on their site.

tomaspiaggio12 6mo ago

This is idiotic. What's next, disallowing unified memory or SoC with packaged memory? These people think they know better than world experts on these matters.

Aissen 6mo ago

Next: replaceable storage? Since flash-based storage is widely known as a consumable that tends to fail first.

Aachen 6mo ago
You mean the kind of "first" that comes right after shattered screens, worn batteries, and loose charging ports? :P I agree in spirit though: storage chips wearing out seems to be common from my limited experience and it would be good if you could solder on, or slide in, a new chip with some standard procedure
- Aissen 6mo ago
  Screen, battery and charging port replacements are already routine at any repair shop, at least for the devices I buy.
  - Aachen 6mo ago
    Sure, but you said storage chips wearing out is the first thing that fails in a device And battery replacements usually leave devices in a degraded state, not sure about screen or charging port, so it's still good that this becomes more accessible

Night_Thastus 6mo ago

I hate to say it, but the lack of removable batteries serves a purpose. It wasn't done just because 'screw consumers'. It was done because: * It makes phones massively easier to waterproof * It allows for larger batteries * It allows for more compact and lighter phones Consumers, based on what they buy, have shown again and again that they want these features. It also simplifies manufacture and lowers costs, which everyone likes. I like removable batteries. If I had the option, I'd get a phone with that feature. But I know that I am certainly in the minority, as is almost everyone in this thread. It's also worth pointing out that these days, battery and software have advanced to the point where degradation is quite slow in many cases. The phone will often outlive its useful life due to specs rather than battery.

EcommerceFlow 6mo ago

What percent of iphone users would take a sleeker, slimmer phone over a replaceable battery?

Aachen 6mo ago
I don't think hackers (in the Hacker News sense of the word) are generally iphone users, considering apple's hostility and condescension towards customers, fighting consumer rights forced by regulators, and device lock-down. People who already compromised on that for a status symbol would probably take the shiny new toy over functionality, sure

seba_dos1 6mo ago

I have never used a phone without easily replaceable battery (where "easily" means no screwdriver necessary, just pop the backcover and pull the battery out). It just happened this way, but I think I'd refuse to buy one anyway, as aside of obvious repairability and maintainability issues having the battery sealed in is also a big factor that makes dropping the phone so dangerous. When I drop my phone, the battery is easily set free to disperse its kinetic energy away from more fragile parts of the device, so it's much harder to break the phone this way. I have made some small dents and scratches from drops over the years, but no serious damage.

gf000 6mo ago
This is not what the laws is about, though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835530 It's replaceable without special tools, heating, solvents. It can easily feature a screw or a million other solutions.

LazyMans 6mo ago

This might be shifting us closer to worse overall design/performance to accommodate swapability. The pouch cells are very fragile, with the phone itself being the physical protection for the cell. If end users begin to handle these, you likely have to add additional packaging to the cell which increases the overall dimensions or reduces total capacity to maintain the same size. Maybe it's for our own good, maybe we have to suck it up and lose a little capacity to meet sustainability goals. Or maybe this won't do much for the environment.

jszymborski 6mo ago
I know a common refrain with my friends is "IDGAF about an extra few centimeters, give me an audio jack". I think consumers are down for thicker phones if they get something for it. In this case, a phone that lasts longer
- Tagbert 6mo ago
  You assume that everyone needs more battery life. That need is highly variable based on different use and access to chargers.
- konschubert 6mo ago
  People say that but then they don’t buy the phones. There is a difference between revealed and stated preference.
  - jszymborski 6mo ago
    Where in the market can I buy a thicker phone with a 3.5mm jack that has comparable features to those of best sellers? How can I reveal a preference that isn't offered.
- randomNumber7 6mo ago
  I'm pretty sure most companies optimize for what the consumers actually want.

blinkingled 6mo ago

Now they only need to make sure that a supply chain for replacement batteries exists, there is regulation and competition and options remain available for a reasonable price. There are plenty of old Dell and HP laptops with replaceable batteries which can only be found on eBay or some random seller that does who knows what under the refurbishing process.

saltcured 6mo ago
Exactly. I had phones and laptops with replaceable batteries in the past. I liked the idea of it, but in practice there was no OEM-quality replacement available by the time I wanted one. The device would have been usable to me still, but not with a random black market battery that may well be a fire hazard. Having thought about this long term, I think the only solution to this would be mandating standardized battery cells. Rather than every phone model having a bespoke cell that is manufactured once and then obsoleted, they need to have standardized shape and electrical characteristics so that batteries being produced for new phones would also be useful to rehabilitate old phones.
- lamasery 6mo ago
  I expect we'll see a spike in cell phone battery fires starting about a year after this goes into effect. Same deal as cheap external battery-powered travel power banks, which are already a problem.
gib444 6mo ago
> Now they only need to make sure that a supply chain for replacement batteries exists, there is regulation and competition and options remain available for a reasonable price. No, they won't do the hard part. Just the minimum plus a ton of PR and back patting then move on.

pwdisswordfishq 6mo ago

What good are replaceable batteries if the software becomes obsolete and un-upgradeable by the time you need to replace the battery?

kylehotchkiss 6mo ago
the secondary market for old phones seems strong?
- fsflover 6mo ago
  Because people don't understand the security implications of non-updated software?
  - dingaling 6mo ago
    If it's a choice between no phone and an old, software-EOL phone I can't blame them. Frankly so long as my browser, VPN and mail app are updated I'm happy.
  - okanat 6mo ago
    Phones cannot have non-updated software due to another EU Regulation: Cyber Resilience Act. You need to support devices at least for 5 years starting from December 2027.
    - fsflover 6mo ago
      And after 5 years? My phone runs mainline Linux and thus will have lifetime updates, just like my laptop.
      - okanat 6mo ago
        How sure are you that the vendor is actually providing device-specific updates? What about firmware updates? Outside of x86 ecosystem the whole-device-family updates in mainline Linux kernel is rare. You're probably deceiving yourself believing that your devices are up-to-date. Most of the time laptops and many "mainline-friendly" phones stop receiving firmware updates in 2 years. By "firmware" I mean the binary blobs for the peripherals. Most of the SoCs have unified memory for the LTE and CPU modules. If a vulnerability found in the firmware of the LTE module, it can be used for data extraction. CRA puts hard requirements on documenting and fixing vulnerabilities in device software in 5 year period. It cannot be infinite amount of years, so a reasonable update period had to be choosen. It covers everything provided by the vendor itself too. So if there are vulnerabilities in FW they have to fix it unlike the current situation.

bethekidyouwant 6mo ago

They’re just going to change the software for thebattery so that it only charges to 80% capacity so that it meets the requirement of 1000 cycles no one is actually getting replaceable batteries. Edit: commercially available tools. All right so you just sell that tool on your shop.

emtel 6mo ago

One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". It's okay to have idiosyncratic preferences (I certainly do), but people should recognize that this law will make phones _worse_ for most people, because this law will force phone manufacturers to compromise the things that most people want in order to provide something that most people don't want. I suppose someone will say that this law is necessary for environmental reasons, regardless of people's preferences. But that's nonsense, because the law doesn't actually require people to replace batteries rather than replacing their phone, and by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone. At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so.

afavour 6mo ago
I think that’s the wrong way of framing it. If, before the launch of the iPhone, you asked what people wanted from their phones you’d be there a very long time before anyone described something like an iPhone (no buttons, capacitive touch interface, etc). And yet, once they were offered it, people flocked to it. This regulation is targeted to devices with poor battery lives. Just because it hasn’t occurred to people to ask for the feature doesn’t mean they won’t appreciate it.
- emtel 6mo ago
  That's an odd reply since by that argument they also flocked to a phone with no replaceable battery, which was pretty standard in the 2000s. But you could be right. I guess this will be an experiment to watch: If EU consumers show a strong preference for replaceable batteries once they become more widely available, we can expect manufacturers to start offering it in other markets as well.
  - afavour 6mo ago
    I think everything is a tradeoff and at that point people took the trade. But the place smartphones take in our lives today compared to 2006 is radically different, I wouldn’t assume much carries over.

romanovcode 6mo ago

This is amazing news. However, doesn't Apple already provides this? You can go to store and switch your battery for like 60 EUR or so.

arjunthazhath 6mo ago

Dude I dream of a day where there will batteryless phones with no requirement to charge. That would be pure bliss.

orthecreedence 6mo ago
Like, a landline?
- 0x1ceb00da 6mo ago
  Nfc tags don't have battery and they draw power from the em waves of the scanner. Maybe in a few centuries we will power our phones using the cell towers.
- arjunthazhath 6mo ago
  But landline requires wire. A portable mobile phone without battery and no requirement to charge.

htx80nerd 6mo ago

I dont care about replacing the battery but doing a 'battery pull' is very useful sometimes. Esp when Android locks up.

jwr 6mo ago

I recently bought a Supernote Manta. It's an e-ink writing tablet. Guess what: it has a back which can be opened, and its innards are easily accessible. I could pop in an SD card, and the battery can be replaced, too. It's thin and light. We are being gaslighted by Apple. They keep telling us that it's impossible to have a thin and light device with a user-replaceable battery, or even, heaven forbid, an SD card slot. I beg to differ: there are some compromises (it won't be as seamless perhaps and Jony Ive or whoever won't be able to wax poetic about the materials), but it can be done. I would imagine something similar is true for waterproofing. There are certainly ways to have a separate battery and phone, with a waterproofed connector.

miduil 6mo ago

I wonder if this is the reason for Google not majorly renewing their Pixel line since Pixel 9 till 11.

anygivnthursday 6mo ago

And next we could have mandatory security patching for 5 years to make it worth replacing the battery on an old phone. I would say right to repair should apply to the firmware/OS as well.

jhasse 6mo ago
Already exists in the EU: https://www.reddit.com/r/Smartphones/comments/1lad1a4/eus_new_5year_update_mandate/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Smartphones/comments/1lad1a4/eus_ne...
- anygivnthursday 6mo ago
  Ah, I must be living under a rock, thanks :)

bickfordb 6mo ago

Aside from an easily swap-able battery I would love for an iPhone with a double thickness screen that was less susceptible to cracking and built-in rubber bumpers so I wouldn't need a case.

moffkalast 6mo ago
I'll take what is a screen protector for 500, Alex.

maerF0x0 6mo ago

I mean, I paid like $100 to have apple do it on my iphone 13 mini. It took a few hours and my phone works approximately like new. If a $800 phone's battery lasts 4 years, it's very much worth $100 to get even a couple more years out of it... Next time I will also by previous generation rather than the newest model.

jurschreuder 6mo ago

Ironically the EU also demands phones are water proof. And they say this will save consumers money, but I will this not also make all new phones way more expensive?

prism56 6mo ago
No because phones should be priced as what people pay for them... It's an open market.

ibrahmAly 6mo ago

Well, Nokia phones used to be good phones with replaceable batteries.

fleroviumna 6mo ago

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mancerayder 6mo ago

Every single Pixel upgrade I made - every single one - in the last decade has been because of battery life. This law will be tragic for Google and Apple. What will compel people to upgrade their functional phones?

prism56 6mo ago
There was nothing stopping you (and others) getting the battery swapped previously for a fraction of the price of a new device.
- rootusrootus 6mo ago
  Yeah this is what I don’t get. People are actually blowing hundreds of dollars on new phones rather than having Apple (not the cheapest option certainly) replace the battery for $89
  - prism56 6mo ago
    Yeah and it'll likely cost the same for the majority of people who won't bother replacing them at home.
thebruce87m 6mo ago
> Every single Pixel upgrade I made - every single one You make it sound like a large number. I’m keeping iPhones for 4 years now and upgrading because of cameras. Are pixels really that bad?

rcarmo 6mo ago

Now all we need is that they honor the requirement for at least one physical nano-SIM so that we are not beholden to carriers to do something as simple as switching phones when travelling--or in an emergency.

drooopy 6mo ago

In order to have my iPhone 11's battery replaced by my local apple authorised repair shop, inexplicably I have to leave my phone with them for days. Since the phone is old they have to order the battery from Apple and that could take up to a week, according to them. Of course it's impossible to stay without my phone for a week+ so my only option is to buy a new phone if I want to fix my battery capacity issues.

rootusrootus 6mo ago
Find a repair shop that will order the battery in advance?
- drooopy 6mo ago
  There aren’t any 3rd party repair shops close to me that are in Apple’s Independent Repair Provider network, so if I were to choose a random repair shop my only real option with them would be a battery from a 3rd party manufacturer, which I’ve had bad experiences with before. I wouldn’t mind as much if I could easily replace it again myself if it started swelling like last time.
  - rootusrootus 6mo ago
    Yeah it's tough when all you have locally are the aftermarket options. I'm lucky to have two Apple certified shops within a few minutes of my home, and in a pinch two Apple stores within 20-30 minutes. I bought a 12 Mini a couple years ago to be the shared phone the kids would take if they were out somewhere that we wanted to have communications ability, and it came with a third party battery. It hasn't been awful, exactly, but the life on the battery seems very low even for a mini. (every time I pick up the 12 mini, I feel tempted to find the nicest 13 mini I can find and set it up for myself. what a fantastic size, makes my 17 pro seem huge)

rootusrootus 6mo ago

As long as it does not make the phone bigger or compromise the water resistance, I support the requirement. But it is not super high on my list. Every 2 or 3 years I pay less than $100 to have a new OE battery installed, takes about an hour. There are other features I would put a higher priority on - like a good small phone option now and again.

pjmlp 6mo ago

Finally! Great to have them back.

asdefghyk 6mo ago

[offtopic] Ive always wondered why a conversion has not been offered ( by someone ) for apple phones to make, it so the battery can be replaced by end user? It would be a case modification somehow. Some kind of new "back"

loeber 6mo ago

I worry that this ends up, like other EU consumer-protection regulation, as an own goal. - The cheapest phones available in the EU (and purchasable online) all have glued-in batteries, not swappable ones. Forcing consumers to use phones with swappable batteries may just mean that the bottom of the market disappears, and consumers will be left paying more for their phones. And would they rather pay less or have swappable batteries? - This will cause some cascade of engineering changes, which will make phones thicker or less waterproof. Again, it's not clear to me that the tradeoff is being fairly reflected here.

vincnetas 6mo ago
... other EU consumer-protection regulation ... like unified charging cable, free EU roaming or intercountry bank payments that are instant and almost free, air travel protections?
- juliusceasar 6mo ago
  - efficient vaccuums - efficient bulbs - no roaming costs if somebody leaves a message on your voicemail - insurance companies and banks can't charge you as they see fit - toxic free food - toxic free meat - farming without killing the rest of the living things - Best of all: China and USA can't dictate the rules everytime
- simplyluke 6mo ago
  Like the experience of opening any website for the last decade and being greeted with a cookie popup is more the direction the parent comment was intending I'm assuming. Some regulations are good, some are bad, all have second and third order effects that need to be weighed against benefits.
  - vincnetas 6mo ago
    and you comfortably ignore all the adds that get in your face when opening any news or commerce site. you would not need these popups with agree and list of third party data aggregators if you were not selling all that visitor information to anyone. alas eu requires you to notify visitors about it. its not like eu says "you must show annoying popups" its page authors choose to do so to be able to sell the data. even knowing that this will annoy the visitors. and then blame EU

tomwheeler 6mo ago

Thank you, EU, for having the courage to pass the pro-consumer regulations that my own government lacks. Often, as happened when the iPhone got rid of the proprietary Lightning connector, the benefits extend well beyond your borders.

carefree-bob 6mo ago
The right to repair legislation the EU passed is heartening. Now, let's see if they actually enforce it. There is a shocking amount of apathy on the part of people who think this doesn't affect them because they personally have no desire to use their car out of warranty or to take a car to an independent mechanic. It affects them because it affects resale price, which affects depreciation which hits their pocketbooks directly. Even if they lease the car. There is a reason that EVs are getting hammered and even ICE vehicles are seeing steeper depreciation curves, and that's because they are becoming more disposable and harder to repair. People are talking about "useful life" of a car as if this was a disposable consumer device, and not a durable good that can be repaired and maintained for decades as long as the ability to replace components is out there. Toyota famously said "Our mission is to build cars that last for 30 years in the third world" and what do you know Toyotas don't depreciate nearly as much as other cars and people still pay 5 figures for 20 year old landrovers. We also used to build toasters and refrigerators that easily last 50, 60 years or even 100 years if properly maintained. There is no reason cars can't do the same, and for some cars this is possible, but not for modern cars and certainly not for modern EVs. This can change.

lousken 6mo ago

If only we had batteries that would last for 20 years...

Eskelar 6mo ago

A lot of discussion about 'whether its needed' or 'moving a needle'. Batteries were swappable back in the day, and later on someone figured that making battery suck, can drive you to buy a new phone - because it is harder to degrade the rest of the device faster. Then we accepted that you cannot play around the battery, bcs that's the reality of things. So many people won't even think about it - but it does not mean it is not needed. I would love to make my device much better with swapping battery as many time as needed. But then I think someone will figure out to make these batteries so expensive, that it won't change a thing.

frm88 6mo ago
In case of Fairphone, which already has swappable batteries, this did not manifest: the batteries cost, depending on the model, between €39 and €59.

zqna 6mo ago

I wish them same regulation would be enforced on toothbrushes

viktorcode 6mo ago

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2III7 6mo ago

Earlier this year I downgraded my S24 ultra to an iphone 13 mini and then to the first gen iphone SE. I replaced the battery myself on the SE and couldn't be happier. Less screen time and more IRL time. People should just use less of their phones and for battery longevity they should not let their phones go daily below 20%. No one on this planet should use their phone more than 2 hours per day. Period. More is just plain stupid.

lolive 6mo ago

I made my local store to change the battery of my iPhone 6s for 39€. And here we are again, for the next ten years.

pojzon 6mo ago

Seems like I will be buying new iPhone in 2028.

rythie 6mo ago

It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits: I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly. I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because just the battery not the device. This way my expensive device and my data is not at risk. I can use 40+ year old cameras, because I can just put a new battery in. This is not something you can do with newer device, e.g. and iPod and you can’t even find anyone who will fit them for the older models. Battery tech moves on. There are now some batteries with charging ports on them. Other batteries offer more capacity than the original ones. Apple even did this once for me, when MacBook Air batteries were fairly easy to replace, I had mine replaced (it wore out) at the shop and they put a slightly bigger one in, which was the standard on the newer models.

AdrianB1 6mo ago
Some action cameras have replaceable batteries, some don't. I had a perfectly good Contour Roam 2 where the battery died and I still have a Contour Roam 3 with some low capacity battery.
- Forgeties79 6mo ago
  My GoPro hero 4 black still going strong. Probably one of the greatest cameras ever made. They kind of hurt themselves with how good it was lol
- pandaman 6mo ago
  Action cameras seem to have less than a 2h run-time though. One could argue that a replaceable battery is a desired feature on such a device as many users of these cameras participate in activities lasting much longer. They also tend to have replaceable memory for the same reason. And it all is achieved without EU directives as far as I know, just from the pure market demand. PS. Consumer surveillance cameras, on the other hand, don't have replaceable batteries in general, as they can operate indefinitely off a small solar panel or for months on a charge.

tencentshill 6mo ago

This must be paired with strong lithium battery import regulation. Even the highest quality OEM batteries can fail in dangerous ways (See many models of Samsung, Surface or Macbook). Cheap, dangerous Chinese imports must be eliminated as an option, because the secondhand owners doing this replacement will likely buy the cheapest replacement battery available on the market.

butvacuum 6mo ago
the largest danger with pouch cells will always be mishandling followed by bad BMS. it's so routine that they get abused that every llm I asked blamed leaving laptops plugged in for a spicy pillow.

tsoukase 6mo ago

Both options have pros and cons but IMHO the cons for replaceable are more. Since 2020 phone hardware and especially battery has become much better, reliable and long lasting, at least at not dirt cheap ones. It will fail long after the screen brakes or the software updates stop. And a replaceable battery degrades the design. On the other side a new battery makes an old phone like new. But again it only costs 15-20E to change it in a non-repl phone. The only real reason to promote battery repl is to reduce e-waste.

gervwyk 6mo ago

my naive opinion is that this will result in more bulky phones, with worse quality batteries.

codedokode 6mo ago

It's a good move, but that is not enough. My old Chinese phone had a replaceable battery but it lasted so long that after it died, it was not possible to find the replacement. It seems that all phones have batteries with different sizes, and potentially different third pin designation, so even if you find smaller battery, it still can be incompatible because of third pin. So if you want phones to be usable for longer period, you need to standardize batteries.

lsbehe 6mo ago
While standardization would be nice, I can still order batteries for the Samsung phones I've used 15 years ago. Availability might not be that much of an issue with larger brands.
- catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
  As long as those unused batteries you can find are fresh a 15 year old unused battery would be doa
  - jolmg 6mo ago
    There's an aftermarket for phone batteries. They're new batteries produced by what I imagine are unaffiliated manufacturers. As long as the phone is popular enough, there should be enough market for manufacturers to make new batteries.
    - ssl-3 6mo ago
      I'm not sure which I like more: A no-name lithium polymer battery going through its chemical charging process near me every night while I sleep, or a no-name lithium polymer battery doing the same thing somewhere else in the house every night while I sleep. Both seems pretty non-ideal if it decides to go exothermic and start a fire. Neither will be actionable (what, I'm going to sue a nameless company in China?). I am sure of this: Until this battery chemistry is sorted out to be unilaterally safer (which may never actually happen), or we switch to something else that is safer, or third-party manufacturers start bringing their face to the table instead of deliberately hiding in the shadows, I'm sticking to batteries that are sold by the company that made my phone. I don't have room in my life to save a few dollars by buying cheap lipos from unknowable sources. There's too many corners that can be cut to save on process expense and QC, and they far too often are cut. And to that end: A standard, legislated promise of 5 years of availability from sounds a lot better than what we have today.

IvanK_net 6mo ago

They should have standardized 3 to 5 battery sizes (and their connectors, voltages, etc.), so that the same battery could be used across many different devices, which would bring down the cost even more.

dzonga 6mo ago

good idea - but not effective enough. if you gonna go about e-waste then go by repairability and part prices and part supply. then let the market sort itself out. as someone said - either standardize batteries or ensure that device makers can cap the cost of battery replacement from 3rd parties. most phones these days - the screen gets damaged before batteries. what about laptops ? other e-devices ?

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

innagadadavida 6mo ago

Legally can this be satisfied by shipping a MagSafe battery pack or is that considered insufficient?

NalNezumi 6mo ago

For context to HN readers reading all the naysayer comments: Here's old HN post about EU and USB-C regulation "EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31652291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31652291 And 1 year later: "Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33358353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33358353 It's interesting to see almost all the exact sentiment. I think barring some niches, most people are happy with USB-C transition. I understand the scepticism but the expectation of "perfection" from regulators (incremental improvement disliked) while fanfare for incremental startup / tech improvement is a weird, cognitive dissonance of HN

aucisson_masque 6mo ago
I still remember the people arguing that lightning is just fine and we don't need usb-c. It's true, they existed. Nowadays, good luck to find someone arguing that lightning iphones are better than usb-c. I guess it would cost them dearly to recognize that they owe that to the eu regulation. In the us they say vote with your wallet, obviously it didn't work..
- mavelikara 6mo ago
  > I still remember the people arguing that lightning is just fine and we don't need usb-c. It's true, they existed. Before that, many of them argued that powerpcs were better than x86. :)

maxdo 6mo ago

and now these voices from right wing, that EU is a communistic union resonate more and more. Now they tell you what to do and how to do.not by market forces. if anyone can replace the phone, it's much harder to track how it was recycle with phone with battery. same with cars btw. they trying to change the world by just issuing the order. That usually never works fine.

george916a 6mo ago

Finally!

chrisjj 6mo ago

Replacable charge sockets too please.

pigeons 6mo ago
that is THE reason i ended up getting a new phone several times.
- chrisjj 6mo ago
  Your phone manufacturer loves you.

Arete314159 6mo ago

GOOD.

felixding 6mo ago

Please bring back the 3.5mm headphone jack! Removing it is one of the most annoying things ever in a phone. Yes, Bluetooth is getting better, but the jack always works perfectly. Why can't we have both?

system2 6mo ago
The IP rating will degrade the moment they bring it back. The jacks will either corrode or let water inside the phone and kill it entirely. Nobody wants to deal with that giant hole.
- felixding 6mo ago
  Nah, that was solved decades ago. We had water-resistant phones with headphone jacks, even with replaceable batteries.

tmaly 6mo ago

I honestly would not have upgraded my iPhone 13 Pro if I could have just swapped the battery. That phone seemed to get better battery life than current models.

aussieguy1234 6mo ago

If this happens, all phones worldwide will have replaceable batteries. It makes no financial sense to have EU and non EU models of phones with seperate manufacturing lines...

jdboyd 6mo ago

I certainly understand the value of replaceable batteries. OTOH, I'm concerned about what this will mean for how many common upper end phones are IP67 submersion rated. I don't want that to go back to being a feature only of clunky super expensive phones, and I would rather have IP67 over a replaceable battery. Now, if I'm lucky, they will mandate both a replaceable battery and that the phones be ip55 or better, after battery replacement.

MattDamonSpace 6mo ago
Yeah great “let’s just pass a law that says ‘no trade offs’, problem solved”
dev1ycan 6mo ago
"I would rather have IP67 over a replaceable battery" Not me, and not most people.
- 0x1ceb00da 6mo ago
  Have you done a survey?
- gib444 6mo ago
  You read this in some report right? (surely the same report the EU read to justify this law). So got a link for us?
cyh555 6mo ago
You will need to have a factory to replace the battery and also run tests to prove that the phone still works with water then
enaaem 6mo ago
Just like how it already work with watches. You can replace batteries yourself, but waterproofing is not guaranteed. If you want to be certain that the waterproof rating is maintained, you have to sent it to an authorised service provider.

losvedir 6mo ago

This is about user replaceable batteries, which is subtly different for me. Batteries that can be replaced by a shop, with some specialized tools and knowledge are important to me from a sustainability perspective since that extends the life of the phone. Batteries that can be popped out and replaced by your average consumer are something beyond that, and have certain consumer benefits like being able to bring along a backup or something, but aren't that important to me.

YZF 6mo ago

I just spent a few hours [this past weekend] trying to replace a battery on an old iPod Touch and botching it (I'll blame my crappy soldering iron). Everything about that was a massive pain, prying the case open, dealing with all the glue inside, de-soldering the old battery. I thought I did everything right but then the thing wouldn't turn on. Could be a bad battery (ordered on Amazon so zero guarantees). Then when I tried to de-solder and re-solder my new battery the pads came off it. Very annoying.

dev1ycan 6mo ago

I don't own EVs but I hope this is forced on EVs (cars and bikes)... that's the only reason I don't buy one.

aziaziazi 6mo ago
Most modern eBicycle have a swappable battery. For extra convenience aim for big brands like Bosch or Shimano but other brands are not a huge deal to swap as the voltages are mostly the same: 24, 36, 48. You sometimes need to keep the BMS + connectors part but that’s not a big deal either with a few screwdrivers. Don’t buy non-removable batteries bikes without the advice of a mechanist but those bike are not the norm.

digimantis 6mo ago

Europeans are very good at making companies do unnecessary things.

low_tech_punk 6mo ago

I hope this puts more pressure to extend the software life-span.

CarlJW 6mo ago

What good is a replaceable battery if the device becomes obsoleted by changing communication standards first? How long before 4G and 5G are phased out? What if we could have forward compatibility in our mobile network protocols?

ycombinatrix 6mo ago
one step at a time

linzhangrun 6mo ago

[flagged]

danilocesar 6mo ago

I look into my perfect workable Samsung Tab S7+ and remember that it has been an year since the last security update. Now I rely on a few random individuals who, for all I know could be state agents or a ransomware organization to provide unofficial versions of Lineage so I can keep using it. Battery isn't the only problem to avoid e-waste, but it's a start.

0x1ceb00da 6mo ago
Aren't security updates the deciding factor for the life of a phone these days? Manufacturers provide updates for 7 years max which is probably less than the battery life.

linkregister 6mo ago

This is a bad development. This is likely the end of waterproof phones in the EU market. Customers preferred phones that had non-removable batteries. Previously all phones had replaceable batteries. This is due to market forces.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

thelastgallon 6mo ago

Next, do user installable OS. Phones are the costliest gadgets with a dizzying range of sensors/capabilities and more than enough RAM. Its a shame we can't use them for a decade+, giving it a second life.

jinushaun 6mo ago

EU is late by 19 years. No one cares anymore about user replaceable batteries.

system2 6mo ago

So Apple will skip the iPhone 18 replaceable battery? I will wait another year to upgrade my 7-year-old phone, but I wouldn't buy 18 if they don't include this.

yu3zhou4 6mo ago

The system like iOS is still closed. Once Apple ends support for a device, being able to swap a battery won’t help much

pigeons 6mo ago

It feels like life got nerfed when I lost the ability to just swap in my extra battery when my phone died.

golemiprague 6mo ago

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jillesvangurp 6mo ago

I used to work for Nokia back when they still made phones. Replaceable batteries were very normal then. Phones were a bit thicker than today but not massively so. These days phones are actually thinner but much larger. I had a "are you happy to see me or is that a Nokia" type Nokia 9300. That was a brick. But it had a full hw keyboard. and flipped open it wasn't that much bigger than a modern smart phone. You could argue that the trend towards more energy dense batteries and wireless charging could enable new interesting form factors. Recent phones have magnetic connectors for external wireless chargers/batteries that snap to the back. Most of bulk and weight of a phone is for accommodating batteries. You could make an argument that making a phone with replaceable batteries is easier than ever. Many cameras have a bulge for the camera. The negative space of the rest of the phone could easily hold a swappable battery. How critical are those 3mm really?

aivisol 6mo ago
I have my 9300 still in a drawer ( checked ) . Interesting if it is possible to find a replacement battery for it and what functionality would still be usable? A physical SIM, 3G still works…
- theshrike79 6mo ago
  If it's one of the BL/BH/etc batteries you can still get them. They're somewhat of a standard in DIY circles because they're a familiar form and all of the support stuff for them has existed for decades.
denkmoon 6mo ago
If they filled that negative space my phone wouldn't rock annoyingly and sit awkwardly on flat surfaces, and that would be a great shame.
- argsnd 6mo ago
  If you filled the negative space on an iPhone 17 Pro/Max it would be a horrendously unwieldy phone. People who say this stuff seriously underestimate the disastrous effect on ergonomics increasing the whole phone from 8.75mm to 13.2mm would have.

antifarben 6mo ago

I'm an exception for sure but I have not seen much innovation in the phone space that you'd genuinely make me buy a new phone. Yes, cameras are better now. But some phones had good cameras years ago. I bought new phones mainly because of battery decline and/or not getting security updates. If one of these will be solved, that might change my phone buying behaviour. I don't care whether a display is called "retina" , whether the next edition comes in the colour "space banana grey while lion tiger snail". And I don't need to impress someone by proving that I'm able to buy a new phone either. Such behaviour gives me a good hint what to think about them though. A phone that will have the battery situation solved is a killer argument. Then I'd like to have a software distribution on top that it's "mum compatible" and doesn't need nerd knowledge to maintain. Something that allows to use banking apps. Let's see how it goes. Also I hope that there can be third party batteries without DRM-like behaviour.

cookiengineer 6mo ago
To me the best "tradeoff" right now is buying used Fairphones from ebay. It is LineageOS HEAD compatible and has replaceable batteries. But it has some quirks. Medium performance if even that, non working fingerprint sensor. Camera quality from 2005. I don't have gapps installed so I'm using my phone without any type of payment/2fa/banking apps. That decision from opsec makes it easily reflashable, so my anti malware strategy is essentially just reflashing the phone every couple weeks :D My battery usually lasts a week because of using only f-droids chat, navigation, and translation apps for the most part, aside from the browser. I use Firefox with uBlock Origin, saves an insane amount of battery lifetime. To me, repairability is the feature I value the most in a phone, so I'm kinda willing to compromise on the other features. Fun fact: Did you know that WhatsApp, Telegram, and Signal all restart themselves when you connect to your headphones? If you froze them before, they'll just drain your battery again when you have any bluetooth changes. You can easily verify that by staying in airplane mode and freezing them, then connecting your headphones in airplane mode.
SlinkyOnStairs 6mo ago
> I'm an exception for sure You're not. This is a big reason why "tech" went so all-in on AI. The era of rapid innovation and rapid growth on phones is over. We hit "peak smartphone" in 2019-2020, look at a chart of iphone or Samsung models. Like a lightswitch they locked in on a specific design. Hell, the more curmudgeon-y will complain that phones have degraded since. Gone is the 3.5mm jack, gone is the SD card slot. "Fuck you, buy our expensive bluetooth junk." "Fuck you buy our cloud storage". (The reality is that consumers appear to prefer bluetooth audio and cloud storage, phones that do still retain the 3.5mm/sd card slot aren't gaining ground in the market. Sony is likely to close down their phone division in the upcoming years despite being one of the last holdouts.) Hence all the desire in tech to find "The next iPhone", and the dozens of attempts to make "AI hardware" despite the fact that literally all of it has failed against the simple question of "why can't this be a smartphone/smartwatch app?" This extends to AI in general. It can't just be a tool with some specific applications, it has to "Change The World", "Be the next iPhone".

cheriot 6mo ago

Anyone know how much harder water resistance gets with replaceable batteries?

ahf8Aithaex7Nai 6mo ago

> Why isn't there any significant demand for replaceable batteries? Most consumers are like pigs who simply eat whatever the market throws into their trough, because ultimately they have better things to do than to get deeply involved in every purchasing decision. > If replaceable batteries were better, they would already be available. Developments like those in the smartphone market involve complex path dependencies. That’s why you can’t simply assume that competition will lead to the product offerings converging on the best product. Furthermore, “better” needs to be defined in some way. If we leave that up to the market, it becomes a circular argument: (1) The better product prevails in the market. (2) The product that prevails in the market is the better one. This circular reasoning is the biggest flaw in market ideology. I don't understand why people can't see that. The market moves in a certain direction, and they say, “There it is—progress!” > Regulation hinders progress. Perhaps, at times, the opposite is true. Even if we set aside the fact that “better” is defined in a circular manner here, the path-dependence of market development sometimes causes the market to get stuck in a local optimum. Regulatory interventions in the market can then serve as an effective lever to help the market break free from that situation. > If you want a removable battery, you're simply in the minority as a consumer. That’s another point where I just don’t get market ideologues: why should I reject regulatory intervention on the one hand, but on the other hand, if the market doesn’t give me what I want, I’m supposed to just shut up and accept that there isn’t enough demand for my quirky, special requests? I’ve been missing removable batteries ever since they disappeared from the market. That must have coincided with the rise of smartphones. Come to think of it, maybe Steve Jobs is to blame. With iPods, there was still a public debate about the issue [1]. With the iPhone, it was just the way it was. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTcavAzopg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTcavAzopg

Ray20 6mo ago
> That’s why you can’t simply assume that competition will lead to the product offerings converging on the best product. You also can't simply assume that an existing solution on the market is not the best already. I mean, who told us that smartphones with user-replaceable batteries are better than smartphones that are 0.5 mm thinner because their batteries are non-replaceable? The same people who want to ban encryption? > Regulatory interventions in the market can then serve as an effective lever to help the market break free from that situation. No, they can't. Regulatory processes are shaped by the same incentives as market ones. It's just that the tools for achieving goals are different. And because of this, it is always moving in the opposite direction from "help the market". > I’m supposed to just shut up and accept that there isn’t enough demand for my quirky, special requests? Generally speaking, yes, it is a market ideology. But what's not clear about it? People adhere to it not because they like when unqualified masses, with their consumer behavior, encourage all sorts of nasty things in mass-market products. It's simply better than when a regulatory body implements its "quirky, special requests" at the expense of everyone else.

pllbnk 6mo ago

I find it so weird that European regulation targets very specific niches while avoiding generalization. In order to reduce plastic pollution, they forced manufacturers to make attached bottle caps (terrible idea) but go to the supermarket and there are various fruits and vegetables each unit wrapped in plastic separately. Now they are targeting phones but I also want my handheld and robot vacuum cleaners, electric toothbrushes, grass cutters, etc to also have batteries that can be removed and replaced without tearing down entire device and even learning soldering in some cases.

jurgenburgen 6mo ago
> In order to reduce plastic pollution, they forced manufacturers to make attached bottle caps (terrible idea) According to research bottle caps are one of the biggest source of beach litter because they float and end up washed up. They are also exceptionally harmful to animals that confuse them for fish and end up consuming them. I don’t think anyone who is against the bottle caps directive is serious about protecting our environment. It’s a minor change with an outsized impact.
- zeafoamrun 6mo ago
  Every airport in Europe has no water filling stations so you have to buy a plastic bottle with the stupid attached bottle cap. So green!
  - petesergeant 6mo ago
    > has no water filling stations Wouldn't you just fill it up from ... a tap in the washroom?
    - dombiscoff 6mo ago
      Depends on the countries water quality. Some countries don't have water good for drinking, and others have poor taste which many are put off by. That being said, many EU airports do have water refill machines. Germanys airports for example..

mos87 6mo ago

seems reasonable on its own, but knowing the track record of EU regulations... Even this sounds dodgy

louiskhub 6mo ago

https://archive.ph/INeg6 https://archive.ph/INeg6

nick486 6mo ago

good. now do the software enshittification part, which is the real driver of device obsolescence. being able to replace the battery is nice, but if the new battery lasts half as long because the software needs twice as much resources to perform the same tasks - you're not really fixing anything.

merelysounds 6mo ago

Bonus: reasonably accessible replaceable batteries double up as a hardware off switch.

trizoza 6mo ago

What if they also mandate that each phone manufacturer has to bring back iPhone 4 sized phones. Just saying. But would be great.

ymolodtsov 6mo ago

The EU with its mama energy again. I use 15 Pro. I don't like the new aluminium iPhones much. So I just went it to Apple service center and had the battery replaced. It costs just 90 euros and I now have a brand new phone, basically. I very much prefer my phone to be thinner, water resistant, and have a larger battery compared to being able to do it myself.

gregoriol 6mo ago
The law is not about you, but about everyone: 1) Apple doesn't have service centers everywhere: some countries/cities/small towns don't have them 2) Apple doesn't provide service for older devices 3) making it easier doesn't mean you'll be able to swap them live as we did in the 90s, but it means you could do it at home with a reasonable set of tools instead of sending the device to some shop that would need to unglue, unsolder, ...
- throwawaymobule 6mo ago
  Out of the 27 EU countries, there are only apple stores in 8 of them.
artificialprint 6mo ago
Why pay 90 when it could be 20

OldTechIsCool1 6mo ago

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cottsak 6mo ago

The US can't regulate it's own economy so the EU has to do it for them

rldjbpin 6mo ago

phones are indeed becoming more repairable, and the legislation is working upto an extent. on the other hand, mandating easier to repair components is ineffective if the manufacturer does not support the parts sale or use parts otherwise widely available in the market. this goes beyond for other consumer electronics. in the world of laptops, which are generally more repairable, i've had my own experience with a mid-range one from lenovo, the largest vendor worldwide. [1] the laptop was from the covid-era and one of the refresh of their popular lineup which has seen minimal changes under the hood. despite that, when i had to replace its fans and battery, i had to look for third-party sellers for the components. they are quite easy to replace but as a regular consumer it is tricky to find the correct parts and not overspend on them. maybe with the new silicon carbide batteries, we could have a "nokia bl-5c" moment, without the counterfeit explody part. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/267018/global-market-share-held-by-pc-vendors/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/267018/global-market-sha...

waterproof 6mo ago

Great, now do storage! People shouldn't have to pay $$$ for a 128GB upgrade when a 1TB microSDXC card is under $200. It feels like a trick to sell cloud storage and new phones.

hequmania 6mo ago

This is great news. Every once in a while something good comes out of EU. Now of course, our US friends are telling myriads of reasons why this is obviously stupid and unnecessary. But it's not. Letting users actually maintain their devices is only smart.

streetfighter64 6mo ago

Replacing the battery on my iphone takes 30 minutes and the only tools needed are a couple of screwdrivers and a new display adhesive. In exchange, the phone is a lot more waterproof. For me, it's a good tradeoff. What's next? Mandating that the screens be "replaceable" as well? Having used a fairphone before, I can tell from experience that easily replaceable parts are more prone to breaking from dust and moisture etc.

inverno303 6mo ago

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spacephysics 6mo ago

Bit tinfoil hat, but outside of the phone becoming thinner and other design benefits with integrated batteries, I largely think the intelligence community has an aligned interest to keep phone batteries from being hot-swappable like pre-iphone days. Given the drafts vs final version of the bill/policy, looks like the battery now must be more easily replaced vs true camera-like battery hot swap. Even with an iPhone turned off, NSA can still listen: https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-iphone/ https://www.wired.com/2014/06/nsa-bug-iphone/

ubermonkey 6mo ago

I get the impulse, but I do not think this mandate is a good idea. I didn't think the USB-C mandate was a good idea, either.

raks619 6mo ago

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ramenat2am 6mo ago

I wish they actually standardised the USB-C with actual data transfer and charging protocols inside, not just the physical shape of the port. It's a total mess these days. Why PD and QC are even different protocols? Why there are USB 2.0, USB 3.0 and then there are 3.2 gen 1 and 3.2 gen 2? And what about Thunderbolt?

ThrowawayTestr 6mo ago
>Why there are USB 2.0, USB 3.0 and then there are 3.2 gen 1 and 3.2 gen 2? The first is half a gigabit, the second is 5Gbit, then 10 then 20.

ChoGGi 6mo ago

Hey, my phone has a replaceable battery. It only took me four or so hours to replace it...

treebeard901 6mo ago

Being able to remove your phone battery also stops all tracking and surveillance for that device. If that sort of thing matters to you.

lxgr 6mo ago
Which tracking and surveillance stays on on a device shut down but the battery not removed?
- treebeard901 5mo ago
  Most phones are not really off when shut down with the battery still inside. It is still responding to E911 services and other forms of tracking. I know this will try to be debunked that if the phone is off, there is no power or communication to the various radios and transmitters. But there are different power states depending on your phone and firmware. You're only really "off the grid" when the battery is removed or you have a faraday bag.

fjjfnrnr 6mo ago

Please add laptops to the list. I have never felt the need to replace a smartphone or tablet battery due to terrible software support in the long run But laptops? Most 10 year old laptops would be fine for daily use, if only the battery would not be a hazard

chewz 6mo ago

Not all but few. Read the directive - IP67 or 1000 charges and the model is excluded

motbus3 6mo ago

The batteries are critical but sometimes companies will also package the storage in same chip as CPU and ram which means that you have a dead processor when your storage wears out

nurettin 6mo ago

Why don't they do something useful like "phones will get perpetual software updates" ? Without security updates, slack, bank software etc. will refuse to install and your phone will be a brick with replaceable batteries in 5-10 years. Or a single utility device.