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Apple introduces M4 chip
- rvalue 2y agoNo mention of battery life. They keep making stuff thin, and unupgradeable. What's the point of buying an apple device that is going to wear out in 5 years?
- namdnay 2y agoTo be fair every MacBook I’ve had has lasted 10 years minimum
- seec 2y agoThat will also be true for any laptop that is not bottom of the barrel and got taken care of correctly by its owner. I have non techies' friends using Windows laptops who greatly outlived any Mac laptop because of software support anyway, and as long as they are content with the performance they still work just fine. The MacBook's lasting longer is just a meme at this point, any laptop of comparable price/performance will last just as long if you don't trash for some reason.
- TillE 2y agoBattery replacement costs $200. It's not like you just have to throw it in the trash if the battery dies.
- stjo 2y agoOnly in the new iPads though, no word when it'll be available in Macs.
- speg 2y agoIn the video event, Tim mentions more updates at WWDC next month - I suspect we will see a M4 MacBook Pro then.
- atonse 2y agoHaven't they been announcing Pros and Max's around December? I don't remember. If they're debuting them at WWDC I'll definitely upgrade my M1. I don't even feel the need to, but it's been 2.5 years.
- Foobar8568 2y agoNovember 2023 for the M3 refresh, M2 was January 2023 if I remember well.
- hmottestad 2y agoMac Studio with M4 Ultra. Then M4 Pro and Max later in the year.
- throwaway5959 2y agoHopefully in the Mac Mini at WWDC.
- ramboldio 2y agoif only macOS would run on iPad..
- user90131313 2y agoAll that power so ipad stays limited like a toy.
- Eun 2y agothen a lot of people would buy it, including me :-)
- vbezhenar 2y agoPlease no. I don't want no touch support in macOS.
- jwells89 2y agoIt might work if running in Mac mode required a reboot (no on the fly switching between iOS and macOS) and a connected KB+mouse, with the touch part of the screen (aside from Pencil usage) turning inert in Mac mode. Otherwise yes, desktop operating systems are a terrible experience on touch devices.
- vbezhenar 2y ago> It might work if running in Mac mode required a reboot (no on the fly switching between iOS and macOS) and a connected KB+mouse, with the touch part of the screen (aside from Pencil usage) turning inert in Mac mode. Sounds like strictly worse version of Macbook. Might be useful for occasional work, but I expect people who would use this mode continuously just to switch to Macbook.
- jwells89 2y agoThe biggest market would be for travelers who essentially want a work/leisure toggle. It’s not too uncommon for people to carry both an iPad and MacBook for example, but a 12.9” iPad that could reboot into macOS to get some work done and then drop back to iPadOS for watching movies or sketching could replace both without too much sacrifice. There’s tradeoffs, but nothing worse than what you see on PC 2-in-1’s, plus no questionable hinges to fail.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tosh 2y agoDid they mention anything about RAM?
- tosh 2y ago> faster memory bandwidth
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- zamadatix 2y agoThe announcement video also highlighted "120 GB/s unified memory bandwidth". 8 GB/16 GB depending on model.
- dmitshur 2y agoI don't think they included it in the video, but https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/ https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/ says it's 8 GB of RAM in 256/512 GB models, 16 GB RAM in 1/2 TB ones.
- Takennickname 2y agoWhy even have an event at this point? There's literally nothing interesting.
- antipaul 2y agoVideo showing Apple Pencil Pro features was pretty sick, and I ain't even an artist
- Takennickname 2y agoThe highlight of the event was a stylus?
- gardaani 2y agoI think they are over-engineering it. I have never liked gestures because it's difficult to discover something you can't see. A button would have been better than an invisible squeeze gesture.
- swozey 2y agoI used Android phones forever until the iphone 13 came out and I switched to IOS because I had to de-Google my life completely after they (for no reason at all, "fraud" that I did not commit) blocked my Google Play account. The amount of things I have to google to use the phone how I normally used Android is crazy. So many gestures required with NOTHING telling you how to use them. I recently sat around a table with 5 of my friends trying to figure out how to do that "Tap to share contact info" thing. Nobody at the table, all long term IOS users, knew how to do it. I thought that if we tapped the phones together it would give me some popup on how to finish the process. We tried all sorts of tapping/phone versions until we realized we had to unlock both phones. And one of the people there with the same phone as me (13 pro) couldn't get it to work at all. It just did nothing. And the keyboard. My god is the keyboard awful. I have never typoed so much, and I have no idea how to copy a URL out of Safari to send to someone without using the annoying Share button which doesn't even have the app I share to the most without clicking the More.. button to show all my apps. Holding my finger over the URL doesn't give me a copy option or anything, and changing the URL with their highlight/delete system is terrible. I get so frustrated with it and mostly just give up. The cursor NEVER lands where I want it to land and almost always highlights an entire word when I want to make a one letter typo fix. I don't have big fingers at all. Changing a long URL that goes past the length of the Safari address bar is a nightmare. I'm sure (maybe?) that's some option I need to change but I don't even feel like looking into it anymore. I've given up on learning about the phones hidden gestures and just use it probably 1/10th of how I could. Carplay, Messages and the easy-to-connect-devices ecosystem is the only thing keeping me on it.
- praseodym 2y ago"With these improvements to the CPU and GPU, M4 maintains Apple silicon’s industry-leading performance per watt. M4 can deliver the same performance as M2 using just half the power. And compared with the latest PC chip in a thin and light laptop, M4 can deliver the same performance using just a fourth of the power." That's an incredible improvement in just a few years. I wonder how much of that is Apple engineering and how much is TSMC improving their 3nm process.
- cs702 2y agoPotentially > 2x greater battery life for the same amount of compute! That is pretty crazy. Or am I missing something?
- krzyk 2y agoWait a bit. M2 wasn't as good as the hype was.
- fallat 2y ago[flagged]
- modeless 2y agoThat's because M2 was on the same TSMC process generation as M1. TSMC is the real hero here. M4 is the same generation as M3, which is why Apple's marketing here is comparing M4 vs M2 instead of M3.
- sys_64738 2y agoI thought M3 and M4 were different processes though. Higher yield for the latter or such.
- jonathannorris 2y agoActually, M4 is reportedly on a more cost-efficient TSMC N3E node, where Apple was apparently the only customer on the more expensive TSMC N3B node; I'd expect Apple to move away from M3 to M4 very quickly for all their products. https://www.trendforce.com/news/2024/05/06/news-apple-m4-incoming-boosting-tsmcs-3nm-production/#:~:text=Additionally%2C%20industry%20sources%20cited%20by,advanced%20process%20node%20optimization%20versions https://www.trendforce.com/news/2024/05/06/news-apple-m4-inc....
- mlhpdx 2y agoI’m far from an expert in Apple silicon, but this strikes me as having some conservative improvements. And in-depth info out there yet?
- Lalabadie 2y ago2x the performance per watt is a great improvement, though.
- refulgentis 2y agoClever wording on their part: 2x performance per watt over M2. Took me a minute, had to reason through this is their 2nd generation 3nm chip, so it wasn't from a die shrink, then go spelunking.
- jeffbee 2y agoThis claim can only be evaluated in the context of a specific operating point. I can 6x the performance per watt of the CPU in this machine I am using by running everything on the efficiency cores and clocking them down to 1100MHz. But performance per watt is not the only metric of interest.
- gmm1990 2y agoIt surprised me they called it an M4 vs an M3 something. The display engine seems to be the largest change I don't know what that looked like on previous processors. Completely hypothesizing but could be a significant efficiency improvement if its offloading display stuff.
- aeonik 2y ago3 isn't a power of two, maybe the M8 is next.
- duxup 2y agoI'd rather they just keep counting up than some companies where they get into wonky product line naming convention hell. It's ok if 3 to 4 is or isn't a big jump, it's the next one is really all I want to know. If I need to peek at the specs, the name really won't tell me anything anyhow and I'll be on a webpage.
- EduardoBautista 2y agoThe 256gb and 512gb models have 8gb of ram. The 1tb and 2tb models have 16gb. Not a fan of tying ram to storage. https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/ https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/
- praseodym 2y agoAnd also one less CPU performance core for the lower storage models.
- 05 2y agoWell, they have to sell the dies with failed cores somehow..
- Laaas 2y agoThe economic reasoning behind this doesn't make sense to me. What do they lose by allowing slightly more freedom in configurations?
- fallat 2y agoThe reasoning is money. Come on.
- blegr 2y agoIt forces you to buy multiple upgrades instead of just the one you need.
- jessriedel 2y agoBut why does this make them more money than offering separate upgrades at higher prices? I do think there is a price discrimination story here, but there are some details to be filled in.
- foldr 2y agoIt's not obvious to me that Apple does make a significant amount of money by selling upgrades. Almost everyone buys the base model. The other models are probably little more than a logistical pain in the butt from Apple's perspective. Apple has to offer more powerful systems to be credible as a platform, but I wouldn't be surprised if the apparently exorbitant price of the upgrades reflects the overall costs associated with complicating the production and distribution lines.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- sroussey 2y ago“The next-generation cores feature improved branch prediction, with wider decode and execution engines for the performance cores, and a deeper execution engine for the efficiency cores. And both types of cores also feature enhanced, next-generation ML accelerators.”
- gwd 2y agoI wonder to what degree this also implies, "More opportunities for speculative execution attacks".
- sroussey 2y agoI thought the same thing when I read it, but considering the attacks were known when doing this improvement, I hope that it was under consideration during the design.
- anentropic 2y agoI wish there was more detail about the Neural Engine updates
- sroussey 2y agoAgreed. I think they just doubled the number of cores and called it a day, but who knows.
- a_vanderbilt 2y agoFat decode pipelines have historically been a major reason for their performance lead. I'm all for improvements in that area.
- snapcaster 2y agoApple was really losing me with the last generation of intel macbooks but these m class processors are so good they've got me locked in all over again
- atonse 2y agoThe M1 Max that I have is easily the greatest laptop I've ever owned. It is fast and handles everything I've ever thrown at it (I got 32 GB RAM), it never, ever gets hot, I've never heard a fan in 2+ years (maybe a very soft fan if you put your ear next to it). And the battery life is so incredible that I often use it unplugged. It's just been a no-compromise machine. And I was thinking of upgrading to an M3 but will probably upgrade to an M4 instead at the end of this year when the M4 maxes come out.
- grumpyprole 2y agoUnlike the PC industry, Apple is/was able to move their entire ecosystem to a completely different architecture, essentially one developed exactly for low power use. Windows on ARM efforts will for the foreseeable future be plagued by application support and driver support. It's a great shame, as Intel hardware is no longer competitive for mobile devices.
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoNow that there's the 13 inch iPad I am praying they remove the display notch on the Macbooks. It's a little wacky when you've intentionally cut a hole out of your laptop screen just to make it look like your phones did 2 generations ago and now you sell a tablet with the same screen size without that hole.
- tiltowait 2y agoI really hate the notch[0], but I do like that the screen stretches into the top that would otherwise be entry. It's unsightly, but we did gain from it. [0] Many people report that they stop noticing the notch pretty quickly, but that's never been the case for me. It's a constant eyesore.
- paxys 2y agoThey keep making iPads more powerful while keeping them on the Fisher-Price OS and then wonder why no one is buying them for real work. Who in their right mind will spend $1300-$1600 on this rather than a MacBook Pro?
- throwaway2562 2y agoThis.
- wizzwizz4 2y agoEveryone knows the Fisher-Price OS is Windows XP (aka Teletubbies OS, on account of Bliss). iPads run Countertop OS (on account of their flat design).
- hedora 2y agoYou can install linux on the one with a fixed hinge and keyboard, but without a touchscreen. It’s the “book” line instead of the “pad” line. I’m also annoyed that the iPad is locked down, even though it could clearly support everything the macbook does. Why can’t we have a keyboard shortcut to switch between the iPad and Mac desktops or something?
- PreInternet01 2y ago> M4 makes the new iPad Pro an outrageously powerful device for artificial intelligence Yeah, well, I'm an enthusiastic M3 user, and I'm sure the new AI capabilities are nice, but hyperbole like this is just asking for snark like "my RTX4090 would like a word". Other than that: looking forward to when/how this chipset will be available in Macbooks!
- mewpmewp2 2y agoAlthough as I undserstand m3 chips with more VRAM handle larger LLMs better because they can load more into VRAM compared to 4090.
- freedomben 2y agoThis is true, but that is only an advantage when running a model larger than the VRAM. If your models are smaller, you'll get substantially better performance in a 4090. So it all comes down to which models you want to run.
- mewpmewp2 2y agoIt seems like 13b was running fine on 4090, but when I tried all the more fun or intelligent ones became very slow and would have peformed better on m3.
- PreInternet01 2y agoYes, M3 chips are available with 36GB unified RAM when embedded in a MacBook, although 18GB and below are the norm for most models. And even though the Apple press release does not even mention memory capacity, I can guarantee you that it will be even less than that on an iPad (simply because RAM is very battery-hungry and most consumers won't care). So, therefore my remark: it will be interesting to see how this chipset lands in MacBooks.
- mewpmewp2 2y agoBut M3 Max should able to support up to 128gb.
- simonbarker87 2y agoSeeing an M series chip launch first in an iPad must be result of some mad supply chain and manufacturing related hangovers from COVID. If the iPad had better software and could be considered a first class productivity machine then it would be less surprising but the one thing no one says about the iPads is “I wish this chip were faster”
- asddubs 2y agoWell, it also affects the battery life, so it's not entirely wasted on the ipad
- margalabargala 2y agoMaybe they're clocking it way down. Same performance, double the battery life.
- cjauvin 2y agoI very rarely wish the battery of my iPad Pro 2018 would last longer, as it's already so good, even considering the age factor.
- 0x457 2y agoYeah, I don't think about charging my iPad throughout the day, and I constantly use it. Maybe it's in the low 20s late at night, but it never bothered me.
- Zigurd 2y agoMy guess is that the market size fit current yields.
- a_vanderbilt 2y agoI think this is the most likely explanation. Lower volume for the given product matches supply better, and since it's clocked down and has a lower target for GPU cores it has better yields.
- Lalabadie 2y agoKey values in the press release: - Up to 1.5x the CPU speed of iPad Pro's previous M2 chip - Octane gets up to 4x the speed compared to M2 - At comparable performance, M4 consumes half the power of M2 - High-performance AI engine, that claims 60x the speed of Apple's first engine (A11 Bionic)
- mrtesthah 2y ago>- Up to 1.5x the CPU speed of iPad Pro's previous M2 chip What I want to know is whether that ratio holds for single-core performance measurements.
- mrtesthah 2y agoHere’s the benchmark: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/apple-m4-scores-suggest-it-is-the-new-single-core-performance-champ-beating-intels-core-i9-14900ks-incredible-results-of-3800-posted https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/apple-m4-sco...
- codedokode 2y ago> Up to 1.5x the CPU speed Doesn't it mean "1.5x speed in rare specific tasks which were hardware optimized, and 1x ewerywhere else"?
- rsynnott 2y agoI mean, we'll have to wait for proper benchmarks, but that would make it a regression vs the M3, so, er, unlikely.
- BurningFrog 2y agoAt this point I read "up to" as "not"...
- stonemetal12 2y agoApple claimed M3 was 1.35 the speed of the M2. So the M3 vs M4 comparison isn't that impressive. Certainly not bad by any means, just pointing out why it is compared to the M2 here.
- dsign 2y ago> M4 makes the new iPad Pro an outrageously powerful device for artificial intelligence. Isn’t there a ToS prohibition about “custom coding” in iOS? Like, the only way you can ever use that hardware directly is for developers who go through Apple Developer Program, which last time I heard was bitter lemon? Tell me if I’m wrong.
- freedomben 2y agoWell, this is the heart of the "appliance" model. iPads are appliances. You wouldn't ask about running custom code on your toaster or your blender, so you shouldn't ask about that for your iPad. Also all the common reasons apply: Security and Privacy, Quality Control, Platform Stability and Compatibility, and Integrated User Experience. All of these things are harmed when you are allowed to run custom coding. (disclaimer: My personal opinion is that the "appliance" model is absurd, but I've tried to steel-man the case for it)
- jebarker 2y agoLots of people ask about running custom code on other appliances. I think they call them hackers.
- freedomben 2y agoI think you're reinforcing Apple's point about how security is harmed by allowing custom code.
- kibwen 2y ago> You wouldn't ask about running custom code on your toaster or your blender, so you shouldn't ask about that for your iPad. Of course I would, and the only reason other people wouldn't is because they're conditioned to believe in their own innate powerlessness. If you sell me a CPU, I want the power to program it, period.
- freedomben 2y ago
- fallingsquirrel 2y agoIs it just me or is there not a single performance chart here? Their previous CPU announcements have all had perf-per-watt charts, and that's conspicuously missing here. If this is an improvement over previous gens, wouldn't they want to show that off?
- a_vanderbilt 2y agoSince Intel->M1 the performance gains haven't been the headliners they once were, although the uplifts haven't been terrible. It also lets them hide behind the more impressive sounding multiplier which can reference something more specific but not necessarily applicable to broader tasks.
- pier25 2y agoThis is great but why even bother with the M3? The M3 Macs were released only 7 months ago.
- ls612 2y agoProbably they had some contractual commitments with TSMC and had to use up their N3B capacity somehow. But as soon as N3E became available it’s a much better process overall.
- a_vanderbilt 2y agoRamping up production on a new die also takes time. The lower volume and requirements of the M4 as used in the iPad can give them time to mature the line for the Macs.
- SkyPuncher 2y agoSo far, I haven’t seen any comparison between the iPad M4 and the computer M3. Everything was essentially compared to the last iPad chip, the M2. Your laptop M3 chip is still probably more powerful than this. The laptop M4 will be faster, but not groundbreaking faster.
- giancarlostoro 2y agoCall me crazy, but I want all that power in a 7" tablet. I like 7" tablets most because they feel less clunky to carry around and take with you. Same with 13" laptops, I'm willing to sacrifice on screen real estate for saving myself from the back pain of carrying a 15" or larger laptop. Some of this is insanely impressive. I wonder how big the OS ROM (or whatever) is with all these models. For context, even if the entire OS is about 15GB, in order to get some of these features locally just for an LLM on its own, its about 60GB or more, for something ChatGPT esque. Which requires me to spend thousands on a GPU. Apologies for the many thoughts, I'm quite excited by all these advancements. I always say I want AI to work offline and people tell me I'm moving the goalpost, but it is truly the only way it will become mainstream.
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago> Call me crazy, but I want all that power in a 7" tablet Aren't phones getting close to 7" now? The iPhone pro is 6.2", right?
- jsheard 2y agoYeah, big phones have become the new small tablet. https://phonesized.com/compare/#2299,156 https://phonesized.com/compare/#2299,156 Take away the bezels on the tablet and there's not a lot of difference.
- giancarlostoro 2y agoI'm not a huge fan of it, but yeah they are. I actually prefer my phones to be somewhat smaller.
- jwells89 2y agoBiggest difference is aspect ratio. Phones are taller and less pleasant to use in landscape, tablets are more square and better to use in landscape. You could technically make a more square phone but it wouldn’t be fun to hold in common positions, like up to your ear for a call.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
- daniel31x13 2y agoWell at the end of the day the processors are bottlenecked by its OS. What real value does an iPad bring that a typical iPhone + Mac combo misses? (Other than being a digital notebook…)
- cooper_ganglia 2y agoDigital artist's can get a lot of use out of it, I'd assume. The Apple Pencil seems pretty nice with the iPad.
- daniel31x13 2y agoThis. If you’re anything other than a digital artist/someone who genuinely prefers writing over typing, an iPad is just an extra tool for you to waste your money on. I had one of the earlier versions and this was pretty much its only use case…
- JohnBooty 2y agoI wound up getting a 2019 iPad Pro for 50% off, so $500 or so. Thought I would use it as a work/play hybrid. Surprisingly (at least to me) I feel that I've more than gotten my money's worth out of it despite it being almost entirely strictly a consumption device. I tote it around the house so I can watch or listen to things while I'm doing other things. It's also nice to keep on the dining room table so I can read the news or watch something while we're eating. I could do every single one of these things with my laptop, but... that laptop is my primary work tool. I don't like to carry it all over the place, exposing it to spills and dust, etc. The only real work-related task is serving as a secondary monitor (via AirPlay) for my laptop when I travel. $500 isn't pocket change, but I've gotten 48 months of enjoyment and would expect at least another 24 to 36 months. That's about $6 a month, or possibly more like $3-4 per month if I resell it eventually. Worth it for me.
- beacon294 2y agoI loved my 2017 ipad pro but I retired it because I noticed my productivity went way down and my consumption went way up.
- lopkeny12ko 2y agoI always wonder how constraining it is to design these chips subject to thermal and energy limitations. I paid a lot of money for my hardware and I want it to go as fast as possible. I don't want my fans to be quiet, and I don't want my battery life to be 30 minutes longer, if it means I get more raw performance in return. But instead, Apple's engineers have unilaterally decided to handicap their own processors for no real good reason.
- Workaccount2 2y agoThe overwhelming majority of people who buy these devices will just use them to watch netflix and tiktok. Apple is well aware of this.
- boplicity 2y agoWhy not go with a Windows based device? There are many loud and low-battery life options that are very fast.
- jwells89 2y agoYeah, one of my biggest frustrations as a person who likes keeping around both recent-ish Mac and Windows/Linux laptops is that x86 laptop manufacturers seem to have a severe allergy to building laptops that are good all-rounders… they always have one or multiple specs that are terrible, usually heat, fan noise, and battery life. Paradoxically this effect is the worst in ultraportables, where the norm is to cram in CPUs that run too hot for the chassis with tiny batteries, making them weirdly bad at the one thing they’re supposed to be good at. Portability isn’t just physical size and weight, but also runtime and if one needs to bring cables and chargers. On that note, Apple really needs to resurrect the 12” MacBook with an M-series or even A-series SoC. There’d be absolutely nothing remotely comparable in the x86 ultraportable market.
- etchalon 2y agoThe reason is because battery life is more important to the vast majority of consumers.
- 2y ago
- pxc 2y agoGiven that recent Apple laptops already have solid all-day battery life, with such a big performance per watt improvement, I wonder if they'll end up reducing how much battery any laptops ship with to make them lighter.
- asadotzler 2y agoNo, because battery life isn't just about the CPU. The CPU sits idle most of the time and when it's not idle, it's at workloads like 20% or whatever. It's the screens that eat batteries because they're on most or all of the time and sucking juice. Look at Apple's docs and you'll see the battery life is the exact same as the previous model. They have a battery budget and if they save 10% on CPU, they give that 10% to a better screen or something. They can't shrink the battery by half until they make screens twice as efficient, not CPUs which account for only a small fraction of power draw.
- zenethian 2y agoThis is pretty awesome. I wonder if it has a fix for the the GoFetch security flaw?
- ionwake 2y agoSorry to be a noob, but does anyone have a rough estimate of when this m4 chip will be in a macbook air or macbook pro?
- a_vanderbilt 2y agoIf I had to venture a guess, maybe WWDC '24 that's coming up.
- ionwake 2y agoThanks bro
- slashdev 2y agoI've got a Mac Pro paperweight because the motherboard went. It's going to the landfill. I can't even sell it for parts because I can't erase the SSD. If they didn't solder everything to the board you could actually repair it. When I replace my current Dell laptop, it will be with a repairable framework laptop.
- stuff4ben 2y agoJust because you lack the skills to fix it, doesn't mean it's not repairable. People desolder components all the time to fix phones and ipads and laptops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNKNjy3CoZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNKNjy3CoZ4
- nicce 2y agoIn this case, you need to find working motherboard without soldered parts to be able to fix it cost efficiently. Otherwise you need to buy factory component (for extra price, with soldered components...)
- slashdev 2y agoYeah, it’s not worth it
- AzzyHN 2y agoAny other computer I could simply replace the motherboard with several other compatible motherboards, no soldering or donor board needed.
- kaba0 2y agoIt’s almost like “any other computer” is not thin as a finger, packed to the brim with features that require miniaturization. Can you just fix an F1 engine with a wrench?
- Rebelgecko 2y ago
- bigdict 2y ago38 TOPS in the Neural Engine comes dangerously close to the Microsoft requirement of 40 TOPS for "AI PCs".
- ycsux 2y agoThat's a good reason why they didn't release it as Mac Book M4
- onetimeuse92304 2y agoAs an amateur EE it is so annoying that they reuse names of already existing ARM chips. ARM Cortex-M4 or simply M4 is quite popular ARM architecture. I am using M0, M3 and M4 chips from ST on a daily basis.
- jupp0r 2y agoIt's not like the practice of giving marketing names to chips is generally a world of logical sanity if you look at Intel i5/i7/i9 etc.
- zerohp 2y agoAs a professional EE, I know that ARM Cortex-M4 is not a chip. It's an embedded processor that is put into an SOC (which is a chip), such as the STM32-family from ST.
- diogenescynic 2y agoSo is the iPad mini abandoned due to the profit margins being too small or what? I wish they'd just make it clear so I could upgrade without worrying a mini replacement will come out right after I buy something. And I don't really understand why there are so many different iPads now (Air/Pro/Standard). It just feels like Apple is slowly becoming like Dell... offer a bunch of SKUs and barely differentiated products. I liked when Apple had fewer products but they actually had a more distinct purpose.
- downrightmike 2y agoThey refresh it like every 3 years
- kalleboo 2y agoPretty much, yeah https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPad_Mini https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPad_Mini
- 999900000999 2y agoI'm extremely happy with my M1 iPad. The only real issue is aside from the screen eventually wearing out ( it already has a bit of flex), I can't imagine a reason to upgrade. It's powerful enough to do anything you'd use an iPad for. I primarily make music on mine, I've made full songs with vocals and everything ( although without any mastering - I think this is possible in Logic on iPad). It's really fun for quick jam sessions, but I can't imagine what else I'd do with it. IO is really bad for media creation, you have a single USB C port( this bothers me the most, the moment that port dies it becomes E Waste), no headphone jack...
- MuffinFlavored 2y agoAny apps that work with MIDI controller on iPad? Also, can't you just use a USB-C hub for like $10 from Amazon?
- 999900000999 2y agoI have more USB hubs than I can count. You still only have one point of failure for the entire device that can't be easily fixed. And most midi controllers work fine via USB or Bluetooth
- bombcar 2y agoI wish it had two USB C ports, one on the bottom and one on the side. Even if they only really were one internally at least you’d have more mounting options.
- tootie 2y agoI have an iPad that predates M1 and it's also fine. It's a media consumption device and that's about it.
- kalleboo 2y agoThe USB-C port is on it's own separate board, so it's repairable with minimal waste https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPad+Pro+12.9-Inch+5th+Gen+USB-C+Charging+Port+Replacement/156329#s327204 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPad+Pro+12.9-Inch+5th+Gen+USB-...
- grzeshru 2y agoAre these M-class chips available to be purchased on Digi-Key and Mouser? Do they have data sheets and recommended circuitry? I’d love to play with one just to see how difficult it is to integrate compared to, say, an stm8/32 or something.
- exabrial 2y agoabsolutely not, and even if they were, they are not documented in the least bit and require extraordinary custom OS and other BLOBs to run
- grzeshru 2y agoDarn it. Oh well.
- downrightmike 2y agolol
- metaltyphoon 2y agoLegit made me chuckle
- culopatin 2y agoDid you really expect a yes?
- grzeshru 2y agoI didn’t know what to expect. I thought they may license it to other companies under particular clauses or some such.
- tibbydudeza 2y ago4P cores only ???.
- a_vanderbilt 2y agoI'm hoping the higher efficiency gains and improved thermals offset that. The efficiency cores tend to have more impact on the Macs where multitasking is heavier.
- antonkochubey 2y agoIt's a tablet/ultrabook chip, are you expecting an Threadripper in them?
- ulfw 2y agoIt's the non-Pro, non-Max chip. How many performance cores do you expect? Bigger shocker is only three cores alive in the 256GB and 512GB models paired with 8GB
- treesciencebot 2y ago~38 TOPS at fp16 is amazing, if the quoted number if fp16 (ANE is fp16 according to this [1] but that honestly seems like a bad choice when people are going smaller and smaller even at the higher level datacenter cards so not sure why apple would use it instead of fp8 natively) [1]: https://github.com/hollance/neural-engine/blob/master/docs/16-bit.md https://github.com/hollance/neural-engine/blob/master/docs/1...
- imtringued 2y agoFor reference. The llama.cpp people are not going smaller. Most of those models run on 32 bit floats with the dequantization happening on the fly.
- haunter 2y agoI love when Gruber is confidently wrong https://daringfireball.net/linked/2024/04/28/m4-ipad-pros-gurman https://daringfireball.net/linked/2024/04/28/m4-ipad-pros-gu...
- alberth 2y agoEspecially about Gurman, who he loves to hate on.
- atommclain 2y agoNever understood the animosity, especially because it seems to only go one direction.
- tambourine_man 2y agoHe spills Apple's secrets. Gruber had him on his podcast once and called him a super villain in the Apple's universe, or something like this. It was cringeworthy
- MBCook 2y agoAs a longtime reader/listener I don’t see him as hating Gurman at all.
- bombcar 2y agoWasn't it relatively well known that the M3 is on an expensive process and quickly getting to an M4 on a cheaper/higher yield process would be worth it?
- MBCook 2y agoYes but Apple has never gone iPad first on a new chip either, so I was with him in that I assumed it wouldn’t be what they would do. “Let’s make all our Macs look slower for a while!” So I was surprised as well.
- 2y ago
- qwertyuiop_ 2y agoDoes anyone know how much of this giant leap performance as Apple puts it is really useful and perceived by end users of iPad. I am thinking gaming, art applications on iPad. What other major ipad use cases are out there that need this kind of performance boost.
- musictubes 2y agoMaking music. The iPad is much better for performing than a computer. There is a huge range of instruments, effects, sequencers, etc. available on the iPad. Things like physical modeling and chained reverb can eat up processor cycles so more performance is always welcomed. Both Final Cut Pro and Davinci resolve can also use as much power as you can give them though it isn’t clear to me why you’d use an iPad instead of a Mac. They also announced a crazy multicam app for iPads and iPhones that allows remote control of a bunch of iPhones at the same time.
- _akhe 2y agoI imagine running LLMs and other AI models to produce a variety of art, music, video, etc.
- pquki4 2y agoI have a 3rd gen iPad Pro 12.9 for reading and other light activity. I haven't found any reason to upgrade for the past few years. I don't see myself getting another iPad unless this one dies or if Apple actually unlocks the potential of the hardware.
- troupo 2y ago"The M4 is so fast, it'll probably finish your Final Cut export before you accidentally switch apps and remember that that cancels the export entirely. That's the amazing power performance lead that Apple Silicon provides." #AppleEvent https://mastodon.social/@tolmasky/112400245162436195 https://mastodon.social/@tolmasky/112400245162436195
- dlivingston 2y agoHa. That really highlights how absurd the toy of iPadOS is compared to the beasts that are the M-series chips. It's like putting a Ferrari engine inside of a Little Tikes toy car. I really have no idea who the target market for this device is.
- LeoPanthera 2y agoThis is a straight-up lie, yes? Switching apps doesn't cancel the export.
- troupo 2y agoCan neither confirm nor deny :) I've seen people complain about this on Twitter and Mastodon though. It's possible people are running into iOS limitations: it will kill apps when it thinks there's not enough memory.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- kalleboo 2y agoThe export progress dialog says "Keep Final Cut Pro open until the export is complete", and the standard iPadOS limitations are that background tasks are killed after either 10 minutes or when some foreground app wants more RAM. So it it's not instantly cancelled but it's a precarious workflow compared to on a Mac.
- satertek 2y agoAre there enough cores to allow user switching?
- daft_pink 2y agoWho would buy a MacBook Air or mini or studio today with its older chips?
- rc_mob 2y agopeople on a budget
- alexpc201 2y agoPeople with a Macbook. You use the Macbook to work and the iPad to play, read, movies, draw, etc. plus you can use it as a second monitor for the Macbook.
- antonkochubey 2y agoSomeone who needs a MacBook Air or mini or studio, not an iPad
- daft_pink 2y agoI'm just venting that their processor strategy doesn't make much sense. The iPad gets the M4, but the Mini and Studio and Mac Pro are still on M2 and the MacBooks are on M3. They've essentially undercut every Mac they currently sell by putting the M4 in the iPad and most people will never use that kind of power in an iPad. If you are going to spend $4k on a Mac don't you expect it to have the latest processor?
- victorbjorklund 2y agoPeople who care about having the latest probably are waiting already anyway.
- lotsofpulp 2y agoProbably 80%+ of the population can do everything they need or want to do for the next 5 (maybe even 8) years on an M2 Air available for less than $1,500. I write this on a $1,000 late 2015 Intel MacBook Air.
- shepherdjerred 2y agoAm I wrong, or is raytracing on an iPad an _insane_ thing to announce? As far as I know, raytracing is the holy grail of computer graphics. It's something that became viable on consumer gaming desktops just a few years ago, and now we have real-time ray tracing on a tablet.
- vvvvvvvvvvvvv 2y agoiPhones with A17 already have hardware ray tracing. Few applications/games support it at present.
- bluescrn 2y agoGotta make the loot boxes look even shinier, keep the gamblers swiping those cards.
- luyu_wu 2y agoWhy would it be? They announced the same for the A17 in the iPhone. Turns out it was a gimmick that caused over 11W of power draw. Raytracing is a brute force approach that cannot be optimized to the same level as rasterization. For now at least, it is unsuitable for mobile devices. Now if we could use the RT units for Blender that'd be great, but it's iPad OS...
- pshc 2y agoIt is kind of crazy to look back on. In the future we might look forward to path tracing and more physically accurate renderers. (Or perhaps all the lighting will be hallucinated by AI...?)
- alexpc201 2y agoI understand that they have delayed the announcement of these iPads until the M4 is ready, otherwise there is nothing interesting to offer to those who have an iPad Pro M2. I don't see the convenience of having a MacBook M3 and an iPad M4. If I can't run Xcode on an iPad M4, the MacBook is the smartest option; it has a bigger screen, more memory, and if you complement it with an iPad Air, you don't miss out on anything.
- dhx 2y agoM2's Neural Engine had 15TOPS, M3's 18TOPS (+20%) vs. M4's 38TOPS (+111%). In transistor counts, M2 had 20BTr, M3 25BTr (+25%) and M4 has 28BTr (+12%). M2 used TSMC N5P (138MTr/mm2), M3 used TSMC N3 (197MTr/mm2, +43%) and M4 uses TSMC N3E (215MTr/mm2, +9%).[1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_nm_process#%225_nm%22_process_nodes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_nm_process#%225_nm%22_proces... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_nm_process#%223_nm%22_process_nodes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_nm_process#%223_nm%22_proces...
- ttul 2y agoAn NVIDIA RTX 4090 generates 73 TFLOPS. This iPad gives you nearly half that. The memory bandwidth of 120 GBps is roughly 1/10th of the NVIDIA hardware, but who’s counting!
- kkielhofner 2y agoTOPS != TFLOPS RTX 4090 Tensor 1,321 TOPS according to spec sheet so roughly 35x. RTX 4090 is 191 Tensor TFLOPS vs M2 5.6 TFLOPS (M3 is tough to find spec). RTX 4090 is also 1.5 years old.
- imtringued 2y agoYeah where are the bfloat16 numbers for the neural engine? For AMD you can at least divide by four to get the real number. 16 TOPS -> 4 tflops within a mobile power envelope is pretty good for assisting CPU only inference on device. Not so good if you want to run an inference server but that wasn't the goal in the first place. What irritates me the most though is people comparing a mobile accelerator with an extreme high end desktop GPU. Some models only run on a dual GPU stack of those. Smaller GPUs are not worth the money. NPUs are primarily eating the lunch of low end GPUs.
- lemcoe9 2y agoThe 4090 costs ~$1800 and doesn't have dual OLED screens, doesn't have a battery, doesn't weigh less than a pound, and doesn't actually do anything unless it is plugged into a larger motherboard, either.
- exabrial 2y agoAll I want is more memory bandwidth at lower latency. I've learnt that's the vast majority of felt responsiveness today. I could care less about AI and Neural Engine party tricks, stuff I might use once a day or week.
- _akhe 2y agoBring on AI art, music, & games!
- oxqbldpxo 2y agoAll this powerful hardware on a laptop computer is like driving a Ferrari at 40 mph. It is begging for better use. If apple ever releases an ai robot that's going to change everything. Long ways to go, but when it arrives, it will be chatgptx100.
- adonese 2y agoimaging a device so powerful as this new ipad, yet so useless. it baffles me that we have this great hardware only the software bit is lacking
- tiffanyh 2y agoNano-Texture I really hope this comes to all Apple products soon (iPhones, all iPads, etc). It's some of the best anti-reflective tech I've seen that keeps color and brightness deep & bright.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoWill be interesting to see how it holds up on devices that get fingerprints and could be scratched though. Sort of wish Apple would offer it as a replaceable screen film.
- adultSwim 2y agoWhen they stopped offering matte displays I switched to Thinkpads. I'd really like an Air but can't imagine looking at myself all day.
- rnikander 2y agoAny hope for a new iPhone SE? My 1st gen's battery is near dead.
- api 2y agoLooks great. Now put it in a real computer. Such a waste to be in a jailed device that can’t run anything.
- obnauticus 2y agoLooks like their NPU (aka ANE) takes up about 1/3 of the die area of the GPU. Would be interesting to see how much they’re _actually_ utilizing the NPU versus their GPU for AI workloads.
- noiv 2y agoI got somewhat accustomed to new outrageous specs every year, but reading near the end that by 2030 Apple plans to be 'carbon neutral across the entire manufacturing supply chain and life cycle of every product' makes me hope one day my devices are not just a SUV on the data highway.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- gavin_gee 2y agoI'm still rocking an iPad 6th generation. It's a video consumption device only. A faster CPU doesn't enable any new use cases. The only reason is the consumer's desire to buy more.
- cyberpunk 2y agoNew oled does look like quite a nice display though...
- doctor_eval 2y agoYep I have an OLED TV but was watching a movie on my (M1) iPad Pro last night, and realised how grey the blacks were. Once you see it, etc.
- nortonham 2y agoand I still have a an original iPad Air first gen.....still works for basic things. Unsupported by apple now, but still usable.
- EugeneOZ 2y ago1Tb model = €2750. For iPad, not an MBP laptop.
- JodieBenitez 2y agoAnd here I am with my MB Air M1 with no plan to upgrade whatsoever because I don't need to... (yes, I understand this is about iPad, but I guess we'll see these M4 on the MB Air as well ?)
- _akhe 2y agoYou'll want to upgrade to produce generative content - you just don't know it yet.
- JodieBenitez 2y agoI don't do such things, not on my laptop anyways. I'll upgrade when the battery capacity is worn out, that's the only reason I can foresee.
- NorwegianDude 2y ago> M4 has Apple’s fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38 trillion operations per second, which is faster than the neural processing unit of any AI PC today. I always wonder what crazy meds Apple employees are on. Two RTX 4090s is quite common for hobbyist use, and that is 1321 TOPS each, making two over 69 times more than what Apple claims to be the fastest in the world. That performance is literally less than 1 % of a single H200. Talk about misleading marketing...
- syntaxing 2y agoDefinitely misleading but they’re talking about “AI CPU” rather than GPUs. They’re pretty much taking a jab at Intel.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- akshayt 2y agoThey are referring to integrated npus in current cpus like in the intel cote ultra. They explicitly mentioned in the event that the industry refers to the neural engine as a NPU
- mort96 2y agoBut the word they used isn't "NPU" or "neural engine" but "AI PC"??? If I build a PC with a ton of GPU power with the intention of using that compute for machine learning then that's an "AI PC"
- ProfessorZoom 2y agoApple Pencil Pro... Apple Pencil Ultra next? Apple Pencil Ultra+ Apple Pencil Pro Ultra XDR+
- tsunamifury 2y agoIts really saying something about how the tech sector has shifted due to the recent AI wave that Apple is announcing a chipset entirely apart from a product. This has never happened to my knowledge in this companies history? I could be wrong though, even the G3/G4s were launched as PowerMacs.
- marinhero 2y agoI get frustrated seeing this go into the iPad and knowing that we can't get a shell, and run our own binaries there. Not even as a VM like [UserLAnd](https://userland.tech https://userland.tech). I could effectively travel with one device less in my backpack but instead I have to carry two M chips, two displays, batteries, and so on... It's great to see this tech moving forward but it's frustrating to not see it translate into a more significant impact in the ways we work, travel and develop software.
- huhuhu111 2y ago[dead]
- _akhe 2y agoThink the play is "consumer AI". Would you really write code on an iPad? And if you do, do you use an external keyboard?
- e44858 2y agoTablets are the perfect form factor for coding because you can easily mount them in an ergonomic position like this: https://mgsloan.com/posts/comfortable-airplane-computing/ https://mgsloan.com/posts/comfortable-airplane-computing/ Most laptops have terrible keyboards so I'd be using an external one either way.
- _akhe 2y agoThose keyboards are absolutely ridiculous, sorry.
- marinhero 2y agoYes. If I’m plugging it to a thunderbolt dock I’d expect it to work like a MacBook Air
- LeoPanthera 2y agoUTM can be built for iOS.
- therealmarv 2y agoSo why should I buy any Apple Laptop with M3 chip now (if I'm not in hurry)? lol
- MBCook 2y agoThat’s why a lot of people weren’t expecting this an even questioned Mark Gurman’s article saying it would happen.
- _ph_ 2y agoIf you are not in a hurry, you almost never should buy new hardware as the next generation will be around the corner. On the other side, it could be up to 12 months, until the M4 is available across the line. And for most tasks, a M3 is a great value too. One might watch how many AI features that would benefit from a M4 are presented at WWDC. But then, the next Mac OS release won't be out before October.
- therealmarv 2y agoThe Macbook Airs with M3 have been launched 2 months ago. 2 months is really not that long ago, even in the Apple universe. For sure I'm waiting on what happens on WWDC!
- wiseowise 2y agoThey’ve just released MacBook Air 15 inch, new one is at least a year away.
- czbond 2y agoAny idea when M4 will be in a mac pro?
- asow92 2y agoWhy are we running these high end CPUs on tablets without the ability to run pro apps like Xcode? Until I can run Xcode on an iPad (not Swift Playgrounds), it's a pass for me. Hear me out: I don't want to bring both an iPad and Macbook on trips, but I need Xcode. Because of this, I have to pick the Macbook every time. I want an iPad, but the iPad doesn't want me.
- elpakal 2y ago"It's not you, it's me" - Xcode to the iPad
- asow92 2y agoIn all seriousness, you're right. Sandboxing Xcode but making it fully featured is surely a nightmare engineering problem for Apple. However, I feel like some kind of containerized macOS running in the app sandbox could be possible.
- al_borland 2y agoWWDC is a month away. I’m hoping for some iPadOS updates to let people actually take advantage of the power they put in these tablets. Apple has often released new hardware before showing off new OS features to take advantage of it. I know people have been hoping for that for a long time, so I’m not holding my breath.
- asow92 2y agoMy guess is that WWDC will be more focused on AI this year, but I will remain hopeful.
- data-ottawa 2y agoI’ve been hoping for the same thing since I bought my M1 iPad just before WWDC. As much as I’d like the OLED screen and lighter weight, I don’t have any compelling argument to buy a new one.
- smrtinsert 2y ago
- FredPret 2y agoWhy does a tablet have a camera bump!? Just take out the camera. And let me run VSCode and a terminal.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoThe new document scanning functionality the camera bump helps enable is really nice. That previously required third party apps, which started out great (Swiftscan) then got greedy and turned into monthly subscriptions. I will happily enjoy Apple erasing entire categories of simple apps that turned one time purchases into monthly subscriptions.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y agoInstall RustDesk app and get a BT keyboard and mouse. Problem solved! ;D
- eterevsky 2y agoThey are talking about iPad Pro as the primary example of M4 devices. But iPads don't really seem to be limited by performance. Nobody I know compiles Chrome or does 3D renders on an iPad.
- SkyPuncher 2y agoIt’s all marketing toward people who aspire to be these creative types. Very, few people actually need it but it feels good when the iPad Air is missing a few key features that push you to the Pro. More practically, it should help with battery life. My understanding is energy usage scales non-linearly with demand. A more powerful chip running at 10% may be more battery efficient than a less powerful chip running at 20%
- visarga 2y agoLLaMA 3 tokens/second please, that's what we care about.
- amai 2y ago16GB RAM ought to be enough for anybody! (Tim Cook)
- bmurphy1976 2y agoI love these advances and I really want a new iPad but I can't stand the 10"+ form factor. When will the iPad Mini get a substantial update?
- radicaldreamer 2y agoUnfortunate that they got rid of the SIM card slot, Google Fi only supports physical sims for their "data only" sim feature.
- Dowwie 2y agoCan anyone explain where the media engine resides and runs?
- wmf 2y agoThe whole iPad is basically one chip so... the media engine is in the M4. AFAIK it's a top-level core not part of the GPU but Marcan could correct me.
- nojvek 2y agoI am awaiting the day when a trillion transistors will be put on a mobile device chewing 5W of peak power. It's going to be a radical future.
- vivzkestrel 2y agoany benchmarks of how it stacks up to m1, m2 and m3?
- TheRealGL 2y agoWho wrote this? "A fourth of the power", what happened to a quarter of the power?
- lenerdenator 2y agoSo long as it lets me play some of the less-intense 00's-10's era PC games in some sort of virtualization framework at decent framerates one day, and delivers great battery life as a backend web dev workstation-on-the-go the next, it's a good chip. The M2 Pro does.
- rsp1984 2y agoTogether with next-generation ML accelerators in the CPU, the high-performance GPU, and higher-bandwidth unified memory, the Neural Engine makes M4 an outrageously powerful chip for AI. In case it is not abundantly clear by now: Apple's AI strategy is to put inference (and longer term even learning) on edge devices. This is completely coherent with their privacy-first strategy (which would be at odds with sending data up to the cloud for processing). Processing data at the edge also makes for the best possible user experience because of the complete independence of network connectivity and hence minimal latency. If (and that's a big if) they keep their APIs open to run any kind of AI workload on their chips it's a strategy that I personally really really welcome as I don't want the AI future to be centralised in the hands of a few powerful cloud providers.
- krunck 2y agoYes, that would be great. But without the ability for us to verify this who's to say they won't use the edge resources(your computer and electricity) to process data(your data) and then send the results to their data center? It would certainly save them a lot of money.
- astrange 2y agoYou seem to be describing face recognition in Photos like it's a conspiracy against you. You'd prefer the data center servers looking at your data?
- IggleSniggle 2y agoWhen you can do all inference at the edge, you can keep it disconnected from the network if you don't trust the data handling. I happen to think they wouldn't, simply because sending this data back to Apple in any form that they could digest it is not aligned with their current privacy-first strategies. But if they make a device that still works if it stays disconnected, the neat thing is that you can just...keep it disconnected. You don't have to trust them.
- chem83 2y ago
- zincmaster 2y agoI own M1, A10X and A12X iPad Pros. I have yet to see any of them ever max out their processor or get slow. I have no idea why anyone would need an M4 one. Sure, it's because Apple no longer has M1s being fabbed at TSMC. But seriously, who would upgrade. Put MacOS on iPad Pro, then it gets interesting. The most interesting thing my ipad pros do are look at security cameras or read ODB-II settings on my vehicle. Hell, they can't even maintain an SSH connection correctly. Ridiculous. I see Apple always show videos of people editing video on their iPad Pro. Who does that??? We use them for watching videos (kids). One is in a car as a mapping system - that's a solid use case. One I gave my Dad and he did know what to do with it - so its collecting dust. And one lives in the kitchen doing recipes. Functionally, a 4 year old Chromebook is 3x as useful as a new iPad Pro.
- jsaltzman20 2y ago[dead]
- jsaltzman20 2y ago[dead]
- doctor_eval 2y agoGreat People Units. OK. Nice recruitment pitch.
- phkahler 2y ago>> And with AI features in iPadOS like Live Captions for real-time audio captions, and Visual Look Up, which identifies objects in video and photos, the new iPad Pro allows users to accomplish amazing AI tasks quickly and on device. iPad Pro with M4 can easily isolate a subject from its background throughout a 4K video in Final Cut Pro with just a tap, and can automatically create musical notation in real time in StaffPad by simply listening to someone play the piano. And inference workloads can be done efficiently and privately... These are really great uses of AI hardware. All of them benefit the user, where many of the other companies doing AI are somehow trying to benefit themselves. AI as a feature vs AI as a service or hook.
- leesec 2y agoWhy are all the comparisons with the M2? Apple did this with the M3 -> M1 as well right?
- spxneo 2y agoalmost went for M2 128gb to run some local llamas glad I held out. M4 is going to put downward pressure across all previous gen. edit: nvm, AMD is coming out with twice the performance of M4 in two months or less. If the M2s become super cheap I will consider it but M4 came far too late. There's just way better alternatives now and very soon.
- kalleboo 2y ago> AMD is coming out with twice the performance of M4 in two months or less M4 Pro/Max/Ultra with variants double+ the performance by just scaling cores are probably also going to be announced at WWDC in a month when they also announce their AI roadmap
- winwang 2y agoI would want to know if the LPDDR6 rumors are substantiated, i.e. memory bus details. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/lpddr6-new-beginning-of-as-12gb-standard.2424340/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/lpddr6-new-beginning-of... If M4 Max could finally break the 400GBps limit of the past few years and hit 600 GBps, it would be huge for local AI since it could directly translate into inference speedups.
- hmottestad 2y agoThe M4 has increased the bandwidth from 100 to 120 GB/s. The M4 Max would probably be 4x that at 480 GB/s, but the M4 Ultra would be 960 GB/s compared to M2 Ultra at 800 GB/s.
- winwang 2y agoDang. +20% is still a nice difference, but not sure how they did that. Here's hoping M4 Max can include more tech, but that's copium. 960 GB/s is 3090 level so that's pretty good. I'm curious if the Macbooks right now are actually more so compute limited due to tensor throughput being relatively weak, not sure about real-world perf.
- wmf 2y agoLPDDR5-6400 + 20% ~= LPDDR5-7500 (same speed used in Intel/AMD laptops)
- animatethrow 2y agoOnly iPad Pro has M4? Once upon a time during the personal computer revolution in the 1980s, little more than a decade after man walked the moon, humans had sufficiently technologically developed that it was possible to compile and run programs on the computers we bought, whether the computer was Apple (I,II,III, Mac), PC, Commodore, Amiga, or whatever. But these old ways were lost to the mists of time. Is there any hope this ancient technology will be redeveloped for iPad Pro within the next 100 years? Specifically within Q4 of 2124, when Prime will finally offer deliveries to polar Mars colonies? I want to buy an iPad Pro M117 for my great-great-great-great-granddaughter but only if she can install a C++ 212X compiler on it.
- GalaxyNova 2y agoI hate how apple tends to make statements about their products without clear benchmarks.
- _akhe 2y agoIt's a 10-core CPU + 10-core GPU + 16-core "NPU" (neural processing unit) for AI all on a consumer handheld. It's like a Ferrari engine in a Honda Civic - all we know is it's going to be fast and hopefully it doesn't catch on fire.
- spintin 2y ago[dead]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- abhayhegde 2y agoWhat's the endgame with iPads though? I mainly use it for consumption, taking notes and jotting annotations on PDFs. Well, it's a significant companion for my work, but I cannot see if I've any reason to upgrade from iPad Air 5, especially given the incompatibility of the Pencil 2nd gen.
- biscuit1v9 2y ago> the latest chip delivering phenomenal performance to the all-new iPad Pro What a joke. They have M4 and they still run iOS? Why can't they run MacOS instead? If you take it a bit deeper: if an iPad would have keyboard, mouse and MacOS → it would basically be a 10/12 inch macbook.
- jshaqaw 2y agoThe heck do I do with an M4 in an iPad? Scroll hacker news really really fast? Apple needs to reinvest in software innovation on the iPad. I don't think my use case for it has evolved in 5 years.
- hmottestad 2y agoI was hoping they would come out and say "and now developers can develop apps directly on their iPads with our new release of Xcode" but yeah, no. Don't know if the M4 with just 16GB of memory would be very comfortable for any pro workload.
- doctor_eval 2y agoThere’s no way Apple would announce major new OS features outside of WWDC. So, perhaps it’s no coincidence that a new iPadOS will be announced in exactly one month. Here’s hoping anyway!
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- hmottestad 2y ago120 GB/s memory bandwidth. The M4 Max will probably top out at 4x that and the M4 Ultra at 2x that again. The M4 Ultra will be very close to 1TB/s of bandwidth. That would put the M4 Ultra in line with the 4090. Rumours are that the Mac Studio and Mac Pro will skip M3 and go straight to M4 at WWDC this summer, which would be very interesting. There has also been some talk about an M4 Extreme, but we've heard rumours about the M1 Extreme and M2 Extreme without any of those showing up.
- jgiacjin 2y agoIs there an sdk to work on gaming with unity with ipad Pro m4?
- gigatexal 2y agolol I just got a m3 max and this chip does more than 2x tops than my NPU does
- gigatexal 2y agoAnyone know if the ram multiples of the M4 are better than the M3? Example: could a base model M4 sport more than 24GB of ram?
- LtdJorge 2y agoNot for the iPad (8/16 GB)
- gigatexal 2y agoRight I was thinking more laptops and desktops but yeah 8/16 makes a ton more sense for the ipad only.
- wmf 2y agoThe M3 can support 64 GB but Apple artificially limits it to 24 GB. There's no telling when they will decide to uncripple it.
- gigatexal 2y agoHow did you come up with that? Based on the core layouts or something? Regarding crippling I only went with a max because I wanted more ram. I would have loved to have gone with an M3 pro but 36GB wasn’t enough.
- wmf 2y ago128-bit LPDDR5 supports 64 GB. You can see this in a few laptops.
- thih9 2y agoWhen this arrives in MacBooks, what would that mean in practice? Assuming base M4 config (not max, not ultra - those were already powerful in earlier iterations), what kind of LLM could I run on it locally?
- talldayo 2y ago> what kind of LLM could I run on it locally? Anything up to the memory configuration it is limited to. So for base model M4, that likely means you have 8gb of memory with 4-5 of it realistically usable.
- thih9 2y ago> while Apple touts the performance jump of the 10-core CPU found inside the new M4 chip, that chip variant is exclusive to the 1 TB and 2 TB iPad Pro models. Lower storage iPads get a 9-core CPU. They also have half the RAM https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/07/new-ipad-pro-missing-specs-camera/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/07/new-ipad-pro-missing-specs-ca...
- ycsux 2y agoEveryone seems as confused as I am about Apple's strategy here. I wasn't sure the M4 existed, now it can be bought in a format noone wants. How will this bring in a lot of revenue?
- TheMagicHorsey 2y agoThe only reason I'm buying a new iPad Pro is the screen and because the battery on my 2021 iPad Pro is slowly dying. I could care less that the M4 chip is in the iPad Pro ... all I use it for is browsing the web, watching movies, playing chess, and posting on Hacker News (and some other social media as well).
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- Topfi 2y agoGenerally, I feel that telling a company how to handle a product line as successful as the iPads doesn't make much sense (what does my opinion matter vs their success), but I beg you, please make Xcode available on iPad OS or provide an optional and separate MacOS mode similar to Dex on Samsung tablets. Being totally honest, I don't like MacOS that much in comparison to other options, but we have to face the fact that even with the M1, the iPads raw performance was far beyond the vast majority of laptops and tablets in a wide range of use cases, yet the restrictive software made that all for naught. Consider that the "average" customer is equally happy with and, due to pricing, generally steered towards the iPad Air, which are great devices that cover the vast majority of use cases essentially identical to the Pro. Please find a way beyond local transformer models to offer a true use case that differentiates the Pro from the Air (ideally development). The second that gets announced, I'd order the 13-inch model straight away. As it stands, Apple's stance is at least saving me from spending 3,5k as I've resigned myself to accept that the best hardware in tablets simply cannot be used in any meaningful way. Xcode would be a start, MacOS a bearable compromise (unless they start to address the instability and bugs I deal with on my MBP, which would make MacOS more than just a compromise), Asahi a ridiculous, yet beautiful pipedream. Fedora on an iPad, the best of hardware and software, at least in my personal opinion.
- ragazzina 2y ago>a product line as successful as the iPads Ipad revenue has been declining for 9 out of the last 10 quarters.
- probably_jesus 2y ago[dead]
- 1024core 2y ago> capable of up to 38 trillion operations per second Assuming these are BF16 ops, by comparison, an H100 from NVIDIA will do 1979 teraFLOPS BF16. So this "Neural Engine" from Apple is 50x slower than an H100 PCIe version.
- foobiekr 2y agoThe h100 is $80k.
- aetherspawn 2y agoNo numbers on battery life improvements?
- _akhe 2y agoAnyone know more about the "NPU" (neural processing unit)? Basically a GPU specialized for AI?
- dev1ycan 2y agoIt's hilarious how they still push the "better for the Environment" garbage when they industrially destroy old iphones.
- Havoc 2y agoThey have been working on tech to pull them apart via robots to isolate component parts. Unsure if it’s in use at scale though
- 0xWTF 2y agoDear Apple, please stop focusing on thinner. At this point you're selling high-end breakables. To quote Katherine the Great, Huzzah!
- tzury 2y ago“M4 has Apple’s fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38 trillion operations per second” Let that sink in.
- zamadatix 2y agoBuilt in to a SoC* e.g. a 2060 from 5 years ago had double that in tensor cores it just wasn't part of the SoC. Great improvement for its type/application, dubious marketing claim with the wording. And it's really not that great even though it's a welcomed improvement - Microsoft is pushing 45 TOPs as the baseline, you just can't get that in an APU yet (well, at least for the next couple months).
- zmmmmm 2y agoI'm most interested in what this means for the next Vision device. Half the power budget could well translate to a very significant improvement in heat on the device, battery size and other benefits. Could they even dispense with the puck and get the battery back onto the headset for a consumer version that runs at slightly lower resolution and doesn't have the EyeSight feature? If they could do that for $2000 I think we'd have a totally different ball game for that device.
- xyst 2y agoCool. Too bad it’s Apple and it’s locked down to Apple products. If Apple ever decides to pivot business to chip manufacturing that allows open access and sale. Then I would revisit. Always need competition in this space. Especially for low power cpu/gpus.
- rustcleaner 2y agoI really really hope [but doubt] Qubes OS runs on something like this with these caveats: -using an add-in video card for dom0 gpu -apple's on-die gpu can be passed through to a qube -apple's unified memory does not need OS X to adjust the RAM/VRAM wall Since I doubt these caveats are in play, I think I may be stuck with enterprise hand-me-downs that I can pass through.
- pmayrgundter 2y agoAm I missing it? 3x faster than an Xbox 10 from 2020 sounds "just" like Moore's law growth Cool! Thanks Apple! I guess this is to be expected given your market position and billions in the bank? Thanks so much for doing it. We'll definitely buy all your
- mrpippy 2y agoToday’s Xcode 15.4 RC suggests that “Donan” is the M4 core codename, and that it may support ARM’s SME instructions. https://mastodon.social/@bshanks/112401605018159567 https://mastodon.social/@bshanks/112401605018159567
- SkyMarshal 2y ago> M4 has Apple’s fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38 trillion operations per second, which is faster than the neural processing unit of any AI PC today. I didn't even realize there is other PC-level hardware with AI-specific compute. What's the AMD and Intel equivalent of Neural Engine? (not that it matters since it seems the GPU where most of the AI workload is handled anyway)
- zamadatix 2y agoAMD/Intel just call it an NPU.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> not that it matters since it seems the GPU where most of the AI workload is handled anyway GPUs can also have AI-specific compute (e.g., Nvidia’s tensor cores.)
- SkyMarshal 2y agoI wonder if they've implemented any fixes or mitigations for GoFetch (https://gofetch.fail/ https://gofetch.fail/).
- smallstepforman 2y agoAs an engineer, I find it extremelly frustrating to read Apple’s marketing speak. It almost sounds like ChatGPT and StarTrek techno-babble. Engineers cannot stomach reading the text, and non engineers wont bother reading it anyway. Whats wrong with plain old bullet-points and sticking to the technical data?
- dimask 2y agoThe target audience is neither engineers nor general public; these announcements are meant for tech journalists/youtubers etc to refer to when writing or talking about it.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y agoApple is no longer run by SJ. That train has sailed. Marketing and design wank wall-to-wall.
- koksik202 2y agoGive me Mac OS bootup on iPad and I am in Don’t get the hype of the performance and being locked to iPad ecosystem
- zer0zzz 2y agoLooking forward when these new 10 core M4s end up in cheap mac desktops. I hope theres a max ram boost from the existing 24GB.
- JSDevOps 2y agoWhy does this feel like it was hastily added at the last minute? Developing a chip like the M4 presumably takes years, so hastily incorporating 'AI' to meet the hype and demand could inevitably lead to problems.
- mlyle 2y agoApple has had "Neural Engine" hardware in their SOCs since 2017, and have been building its capabilities every generation.
- helsinkiandrew 2y agoMaybe I'm getting blasé about the ever improving technical capabilities, but I find the most astounding thing is that the M4 chip, an OLED screen on one side, and aluminium case on the other can fit in 5.1mm!
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y agoPretty much. We've reached peak technical capabilities and hype. Perhaps new sensors, make it sprout propellers and turn into a UAV that follows you around the room and can never be dropped, or at least make it waterproof to 4m.
- fakelonmusk 2y agoWhy does Apple hurry to push M4 before A18 Pro? Who can support the hypotheses below? 1) M3 follows M2 and A16 Pro in part, and 2) M4 follows M2 and A17 Pro.
- drstrangevibes 2y agoyes but will it blend?
- sean_the_geek 2y agoSeems like we are clearly in the _“post peak Apple”_ era now. This update is just for the sake of update; iPad lineup is (even more) confusing; iPhone cash-cow continues but at slower growth rate; new product launches - ahem! Vision Pro - have seen low to negligible adoption; marginal improvements to products so consumers are holding out longer on to their devices.
- garydgregory 2y agoPosts like these directly to the Apple PR dept is just an ad IMO.
- qwerty456127 2y ago> M4 has Apple’s fastest Neural Engine ever, capable of up to 38 trillion operations per second, which is faster than the neural processing unit of any AI PC today. How useful this is for free libraries? Can you invoke it from your Python or C++ code in a straightforward manner? Does it not rely on proprietary drivers only available for their own OS?
- zamadatix 2y agoIt's a piece of hardware so it'll have their own driver but you can access it through the OS APIs just like any other piece of hardware. What's new is the improvement in speed, Apple has exposed their NPUs for years. You can e.g. run Stable Diffusion on them.
- throwaway1194 2y agoI dread using a Mac for any serious work, you lose a lot of the advantages of Linux (proper package and window management, native containers, built-in drivers for every hardware out there, excellent filesystems support, etc). And you get what exactly?
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- _zoltan_ 2y agoBest hardware on the world best desktop OS. I wouldn't trade my MBP .
- throwaway1194 2y agoBest according to whom and for what reason? Give me some real reasons for why it is "best". That's what Apple's marketing department would say.
- _zoltan_ 2y agoI don't need to fiddle with settings and as a developer all my tools are there (git, clang, ...). I don't need to care about the version of my kernel and can be worry free to click update. Plus it's beautiful, great to touch hardware.
- seec 2y agoWorry free update has not been a thing with macOS in ages. I dread any OS update, since it will take ages at the very least and very likely to bring more bugs than the one, they were supposed to fix. And sometimes they outright remove support for useful stuff (subpixel rendering, hello) or obsolete still useful software just because they decided to (32bits apps hello). I don't know how people can still things like that about the Mac, even Windows is better these days.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago8GB RAM?? what is this, 2005? Seriously, how much would it cost Apple to start its base M4 model with 16GB RAM.
- achandlerwhite 2y agoit's an ipad...
- ponorin 2y agopart of me wonders if the reason apple went with an unusual double jump in processor generation is that they are fearing or at least trying to delay comparison with other desktop class arm processors. wonder if mac lineup will get m4 at all or start with m4 pro or something. we'll see.
- zamadatix 2y agoDoesn't add up, if you fear something about to launch will outdo your product in a given segment then you push that launch earlier, not later so your competitor is also first to market.
- ethagknight 2y agoInteresting, it seems Apple knows they are up against the wall where there isn't really much more their devices NEED to do. The cases that Apple gives for using these devices incredible compute is very marginal. Their phones computers and iPads are fantastic and mainly limited by physics. I have basically one of everything, love it all, and do not feel constrained by the devices of the last 3-4 years. Vision and Watch still leave room for improvement, but those are small lines. Limited opportunity to innovate, hence the Vision being pushed to market without a real path forward for customer need/use. Very few people read about the latest iPad m4 and think "oh wow my current iPad cant do that..." Curious what steps they will take, or if they shouldn't just continue returning large amounts of cash to shareholders.
- stackedinserter 2y agoAll this power and I still can't play decent games on my macbook.
- seec 2y agoThey don't care because they can't make money off it. They know very well that Steam would outsell their App Store offering so greatly (with good reasons) if they supported Vulkan that they don't see the point. They push their Metal API not just for the hardware matchup but because it allows them to trap developers into optimizing for their technology only and getting them to sell their games in the App Store. Because the minute devs start looking into options for cross-platform dev/deploy their Metal/App Store combo is just not very enticing compared to the alternative. But they would rather lie about caring for this use case and they would need to have better GPUs in the first place, but at least it looks like this should be improved with M4. For all the big talk they give, their GPU in the entry level Apple Silicon chip doesn't even match the power of a current gen console (either PS5 or Xbox series X have better GFLOPS). The Max versions are better but they only come in devices starting at over 2.5k€ starting price (still with lots of compromises most likely) and those get absolutely trounced by hardware at this price point that features dedicated GPUs, obviously. But they will very much remind you about how great battery life is, because it is all that matters, right? right? (Desktops, hello?) Unless you can justify one of the Max variants for other things, there is not much point bothering with it. If you really want a Mac, it will still be better, faster and cheaper to just buy the most basic Mac you can get away with and get a console or a custom PC with the rest of the money. It is very sad, but this is the state of things. Gaming on Apple was never very good, but at least before Apple Silicon there were some variants of iMacs/MBPs that were decent enough and not breaking the bank too much (with Windows support for even better performance).
- alanh 2y ago> 3-nanometer technology Wow. I remember being assured that we would never reach even low double-digit nanometer processes.