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TikTok preparing for U.S. shut-off on Sunday

• throwblack 2y ago
  America deserves more for supporting authoritarian gov
• bentt 2y ago
  This will be such a fascinating moment to track statistically. Like how Covid in 2020 shows up every graph. Tiktok day might too.
• milesward 2y ago
  ...Good?
  • sigmoid10 2y ago
    There are reports that they want to sell the US branch to Musk as a contingency if their appeal to the Supreme Court doesn't work. So this whole thing might wind up making things even worse.
  • andybak 2y ago
    I don't think TikTok shutting down is great for its users (of which I am one). There are genuine areas of concern but I have concerns about US based social platforms as well. It's hard to unpick these thoughts and it's harder to decide what a good outcome would look like.
    • alp1n3_eth 2y ago
      Looking at a lot of user's feeds, its algo doesn't feel as "rage-baity" as the ones from YT or Insta. Even normal platforms, like FB and Twitter push rage bait to the top. TikTok seems to avoid those pitfalls in a lot of cases.
      • thih9 2y ago
        Anecdotally, I can confirm. In general the algorithm seems flexible to me; on TikTok I find it easy to scroll away or flag unwanted content as "do not show again"; and in my experience the algorithm adjusts well to that.
    • kmmlng 2y ago
      I feel like as an individual user, I'd rather have my social media data siphoned off by a foreign government than my own. On a societal level, having everyone's data siphoned off by a foreign government and being subjected to political influence is undesirable.
  • ternnoburn 2y ago
    Nah, bad.
• tempworkac 2y ago
  Meanwhile many are going to another chinese app, RedNote.
  • raverbashing 2y ago
    I think its name is actually Xiaohongshu - "Little Red Book" (you know, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotations_from_Chairman_Mao_Tse-tung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotations_from_Chairman_Mao_T... )
    • jasinjames 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • SiempreViernes 2y ago
        If that is the first thing Americans do that makes you worry.... well, I'm sure you have some interesting takes.
        • BiteCode_dev 2y ago
          Not the first, but the general idea that the usa behave like ignorant entitled kids with too much power is indeed very worrying for the rest of the world.
        • redserk 2y ago
          Yeah… This thread exemplifies the HN trope of the “analytical type” who thinks they’re more social and more intelligent than others while coming across as bizarrely out of touch. It’s basically the r/athiesm equivalent.
      • BiteCode_dev 2y ago
        They don't know. The average american is super uneducated and can barely read a graph. Most of the ones that heard about it probaly did thanks to the netlix adaptation to the 3 body problem, but certainly not school.
• poszlem 2y ago
  I am not saying that it's good or bad, and the geopolitical situation has changed a lot, but I miss the relative innocence, openness, and sense of unity that characterised the 2000-2010s internet. We are slowly going in the direction of European internet, American internet, Chinese internet, Russian internet...
  • thatguy0900 2y ago
    Bound to happen when the internet becomes weaponized, unfortunately. It's kind of crazy to begin with that we put all of our public infrastructure on a network Russia and China have wired access to from their home countries and it's lasted this long when you think about it.
    • poszlem 2y ago
      I understand why they do it, and it makes sense. Still, it's amazing how quickly that open world has closed down.
  • jeffbee 2y ago
    "I miss being 9 years old" It wasn't possible to share videos with the world in 2000 unless you owned a television broadcasting network. In 2000 you could not freely socialize with Chinese people on the Internet.
    • kiba 2y ago
      You still mostly can't freely converse with Chinese people because of the language barrier.
      • johnisgood 2y ago
        That shrinks by the minute, thanks to AI-assisted translators. I had a long-distance relationship with someone when I was in my very early 20s who does not speak English nor my first language. I do not think language barrier is a difficult obstacle to overcome today if it was not much of an issue 10 years ago.
• pjc50 2y ago
  The migration app of choice appears to be .. xiaohongshu, or "little red book". I'm guessing this won't last since it wasn't intended to have lots of Westerners using it and neither government is going to be happy with that scale of unfiltered contact between ordinary Chinese citizens and US citizens. In the meantime, it's the place for Luigi Mangione memes.
  • __m 2y ago
    Even Top 1 in the german app store where TikTok isn't banned. People identify on Red as TikTok refugees
  • science4sail 2y ago
    I think that the law "banning" TikTok applies to any Chinese app with over 1 million US users, so Xiaohongshu/Rednote or anywhere else the TikTok refugees flee will be a target - except YouTube shorts and Facebook/Instagram reels of course.
    • lolinder 2y ago
      No, the law doesn't give a users threshold: it names ByteDance and TikTok specifically, and provides a mechanism for the President to add new companies controlled by a "foreign adversary country" to the list. So anything at all by ByteDance is banned, but RedNote is owned by a different company that would have to be targeted separately under this law. https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr7521/BILLS-118hr7521rfs.xml https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr7521/BILLS-118hr7521rfs...
      • tivert 2y ago
        > No, the law doesn't give a users threshold It does have a threshold: > (ii) has more than 1,000,000 monthly active users with respect to at least 2 of the 3 months preceding the date on which a relevant determination of the President is made pursuant to paragraph (3)(B); So if it stays unpopular, it's protected from this law. > but RedNote is owned by a different company that would have to be targeted separately under this law. I think that's a foregone conclusion if it actually gets popular with Americans.
• madhacker 2y ago
  [flagged]
• drcongo 2y ago
  Can anyone enlighten me as to what this TikTok ban is supposed to be about? It feels a bit satanic panic from a distance.
  • Rhapso 2y ago
    Politicians realized just how powerful the corporate surveillance and propaganda system is, and they don't want to share it with China.
    • ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      This guy gets it. They don't care about anyone's privacy, save their own. This is yet more coddling of American industry, bought and paid for by generous political donations to keep the scaaaary Chinese apps from stealing honest, hard working red-blooded American's data... so that American apps can steal honest, hard working, red-blooded American's data.
      • pjc50 2y ago
        It's not a coincidence that this comes along with similar cybersecurity/anticompetitive pushes against Chinese routers, drones, and EVs.
    • johnisgood 2y ago
      Except people may be migrating to Rednote (which you have heard, is Chinese). Government intervention at its finest.
  • poszlem 2y ago
    It's far more complex than that. TikTok is a Chinese company with immense reach and influence that can shape American public discourse. A global superpower cannot allow another global superpower to influence its population so significantly through social media (which is also why Facebook is banned in China).
  • EncomLab 2y ago
    Perfect analogy. Keep in mind that most US lawmakers still think the internet is a series of tubes - and we don't want OUR tubes dirties by some pinko commie tubes! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!
• glaksmono 2y ago
  Lemon8 is taking over?
  • s1mon 2y ago
    I tried it for about a 1/2 hr and it was nothing like TikTok in terms of content, UX, or the algorithm. More of a fail than Reels or Shorts, or any other wannabe clones.
    • glaksmono 2y ago
      have u tried RedNote and Xiaohongshu? Heard a lot of people flocker over there
  • bpx51 2y ago
    It's currently down (503 Service Temporarily Unavailable), so no, it's not taking over
  • mempko 2y ago
    RedNote is
• donatj 2y ago
  If X ne Twitter knew what they were doing, now would have been the obvious moment to relaunch Vine.
  • GaryNumanVevo 2y ago
    I doubt they have the engineering experience to launch anything at this point. They try to do a weird tiktok like thing where watching a video on mobile will randomly scroll to another video, but I think this probably has more to do with juicing "unregretted user seconds" than anything.
    • 93po 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • jonathantf2 2y ago
        Still can't fix the fact that videos randomly pause every 2 seconds though
        • rvz 2y ago
          But the parent comment is still correct. X have been launching much more features quicker than before. They have the capital and resources to re-launch Vine if they wanted to. In fact this is the perfect time for them to launch it.
        • 93po 2y ago
          ive never seen this, is it because you're scrolling? they stop when you scroll away
          • jonathantf2 2y ago
            Nope, on desktop on multiple computers or mobile iOS videos just seem to pause randomly with no inputs
          • 2y ago
• throwaway287391 2y ago
  Given that (as the article mentions) the ban essentially only directs Google/Apple to remove the app from their US stores, what's the rationale on ByteDance's part to immediately revoke existing US users' access? My naive assumption was they'd want to keep it going and support the current dead version of the app for as long as possible to continue squeezing US revenue for at least a few more months until that becomes untenable. Are they instead hoping to rally the user base into mass protests and pressure lawmakers into reversing the ban?
  • SiempreViernes 2y ago
    As far as I know there's no real calculation, it would just be for revenge. ByteDance is very pissed about how they are being treated and so they would rather burn it all down than hand it over to some American.
    • DoneWithAllThat 2y ago
      It is endlessly fascinating to me that people ascribe emotions that individuals experience to organizations, companies, nation-states, etc. As the article says ByteDance is a massive company with thousands of employees in the US alone. It’s ridiculous to think a corporation of that size operates as if it was a singular (and extremely petty) individual, especially to the detriment of its own self interests. There’s a dozen potential motivations for pursuing this strategy and none of them boil down to being “pissed”.
      • suraci 2y ago
        I'd like to offer an alternative perspective: TikTok's main revenue comes from China. Succumbing to the US gov would challenge the domestic nationalism, thereby causing more losses.
  • RobotToaster 2y ago
    I was surprised by that too. I assumed we would see a sudden interest in android and iphone jailbreaking.
• zzzeek 2y ago
  noahpinion has a great post [1] on this today and he points out the interesting observations we can make: 1. because it's "Beijing" who is tasked with deciding whether or not TikTok can be sold makes it extremely clear Bytedance is not an independent private company the way it would be the case in the US. They are legally required to obey CCP directives [2] 2. Beijing had every opportunity to sell the application off, and in fact they did just that with another app called Grindr some years back [3] without any fanfare. 3. That Beijing would rather close TikTok entirely, rather than sell it, shows how deeply important it is to Beijing that TikTok does not come under the control of another nation, including the US. it's well established that the government censors speech on TikTok including the speech of US citizens [4] noah bangs on the "the government of China is really trying to weaken or destroy the economic capacity of the US" drum pretty hard and it's hard to disagree with the many books and arguments he cites. The current rush to Rednote has a lot of TikTokers making the argument that "See? Chinese people are great!" which is where they are confusing sentiment about the citizens of China with that of the Chinese government itself. It actually is great if there's a big cultural interplay between young US and Chinese citizens (not sure w/ Rednote though), so that we would be able to counteract a key propaganda point from Beijing which is that the TikTok forced sale is some kind of strike against the Chinese people. It's important that the point be made that this is about the hostility of the Chinese government itself, which is pretty clearly a hostile adversary to the US. [1] https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/tiktok-is-just-the-beginning https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/tiktok-is-just-the-beginning [2] https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/experts-agree-byte-dance-is-beholden-to-the-ccp-and-cannot-be-allowed-to-exploit-americans-data https://energycommerce.house.gov/posts/experts-agree-byte-da... [3] https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chinese-owner-us-cfius-security-concerns-kunlun-lgbtq https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chine... [4] https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing...
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • SiempreViernes 2y ago
    Some Japanese tried to buy one the these supposedly perfectly "independent private compan[ies]", and the US president said no, but that's completely different I'm sure.
• ljlolel 2y ago
  [flagged]
• lenerdenator 2y ago
  I say this as someone who was in high school as the first wave of social media sites (early Facebook, MySpace, Xanga, etc.) came up: Just get rid of all of them. They're battery acid poured on the human psyche. Or, at least, get rid of the centralized massive ones. If you have to combine your online interactions with people with the interactions you have with them in real life, you're better off, and that doesn't happen when social networks span the globe.
  • palata 2y ago
    I understand your point, but I don't think it works like that for teenagers. Teenagers need to connect. They will go where the others go, because that's exactly what matters to them. It's not that they deliberately want the addiction. The addiction is a consequence of it, but they go to TikTok because their peers are on TikTok.
    • lenerdenator 2y ago
      They can connect in person. Like they did exclusively up until the mid 00s. I think peers is also a strange word to use. When I joined Facebook in 2007 you were more-or-less sorted by where you went to high school. You connected with people you knew. I'm sure that still exists on some level, but social media is now about driving engagement with people who pay these companies to get eyeballs. An influencer isn't your peer. It's like considering Billy Mays (may he rest in peace) your peer in 2007. No, he's a dude who sold you Oxy-Clean, but he was on TV a lot.
      • palata 2y ago
        > social media is now about driving engagement with people who pay these companies to get eyeballs That's what it is, but that's not how teenagers perceive it, I think. I see it like this: if all your friends watch the news everyday and spend a lot of time talking about it, you will end up watching the news as well. To connect. If all your friends watch a lot of sport and meet for that, you may well end up learning to enjoy sport as well. If all your friends know the trends on TikTok and talk about it...
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• spencerflem 2y ago
  Given how easy it is for China to buy US data legally from data brokers and how similar the functionality of TikTok and YouTube Shorts, I feel like the only explanations are: 1. The govt is mad that a foreign company is outcompeting a domestic one Or more likely, given that there are so many other industries that didn't get a ban: 2. The govt is mad that they have control over the narrative on Facebook but do not on TikTok
  • nextworddev 2y ago
    Wrong - it's practically impossible to buy video and audio data at the PII level like Tiktok is getting.
    • xnx 2y ago
      The video and audio data that users publicly post?
  • palata 2y ago
    Totally. I find it very interesting that we tend to criticize China for their protectionism, but as soon as something out-competes US companies, it gets banned: Huawei, DJI, TikTok. Of course it cannot be said like this, because "free speech" and "democracy", so the official reason is "national security".
    • tonyhart7 2y ago
      well china does it too with google,fb etc back then, and other nation do it too albeit not outright banned it all together but sometimes they prefer homegrown company/technology
      • lenerdenator 2y ago
        I mean, let's be clear: Facebook and Google are very much banned in Mainland China.
      • palata 2y ago
• madhacker 2y ago
  "Chinese leaders simply think that TikTok, unlike other apps, is so important that they would rather destroy it than see it escape their control." -Noah Smith
• palata 2y ago
  Maybe the Chinese people will be able to teach the US people how to side-load APKs (on Android) and use a VPN. That would be ironic.
  • gretch 2y ago
    No it wouldn't be ironic because all of that is allowed. In fact, existing tiktok users are welcome to keep the existing app on their phone. What's being banned is the commerce.
    • qwezxcrty 2y ago
      Side-loading APKs are still needed for new Android users, not too much difference right? Exactly like the workarounds you need to find when you want to install "Risky applications" on a Chinese Xiaomi phone. As a Chinese hated CCP for the internet censorship and decided to be an expat, what's going on these days is changing my world view.
    • palata 2y ago
      > No it wouldn't be ironic because all of that is allowed. The irony is that China is usually the one considered "less free" by the US, and in this case Chinese citizen could help US citizen "regain their freedom". > In fact, existing tiktok users are welcome to keep the existing app on their phone. My understanding from the article is that ByteDance will redirect US users to a website and prevent them from using the app.
    • gschizas 2y ago
      In the article it's stated that TikTok will display a message to US users and the app will not work: > Under TikTok's plan, people attempting to open the app will see a pop-up message directing them to a website with information about the ban
  • infecto 2y ago
    The only real irony is your continued use the word.
• lifeplusplus 2y ago
  This is about censorship
  • morkalork 2y ago
    Which makes all the positive comments about rednote hilarious. It's like two proles in 1984 talking one another about how they're gonna defect from Oceania to Eastasia because citizens are treated just so much better there!
    • pkkkzip 2y ago
      Again I note the distinctive lack of self-awareness from the demographic that is moving away from TikTok to a communist country value harboring app like RedNote The Rednote or "Xiaohongshu" in Chinese is literally referring to the Mao Zedong's propaganda book the modern counterpart being "Xi's Book of Thoughts" It's frightening how much young Americans hate their own country and the values that have allowed them this much freedom.
      • krainboltgreene 2y ago
        "communist country" I didn't realize China had eliminated class and that companies were worker owned.
      • hxegon 2y ago
        Do you think mayyybeeee this hate stems from how young americans are treated and a complete lack of representation? Red note censors stuff about Chinese politics, they are surprisingly accepting of LGBTQ etc, and it's nice to talk with people from other countries you don't normally have interactions with. It's really not that hard to understand.
        • pkkkzip 2y ago
          There are only two gender options when you create an account on RedNotes: male or female
• jdlyga 2y ago
  "I would literally write my social security number on a sticky note and stick it to Xi Jinping's forehead than go back to using Instagram Reels" I saw this yesterday and it's hilarious but this is the feeling right now. TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness and Instagram is so phony and overly perfect (not to mention ads and so many bots and spam). It's like shutting down Reddit and telling everyone to go to LinkedIn.
  • dartos 2y ago
    > TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness Yknow creators get paid _by tiktok_ to do natural ad placement in their videos? It’s just as fake as everything else, if not more so.
  • pjc50 2y ago
    Funnily enough, the lawyer who quit Meta has resorted to doomposting on .. Linkedin. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/meta-lawyer-lemley-quits-ai-case-citing-zuckerberg-descent https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/meta-lawyer-lemley-quit...
  • cvoss 2y ago
    The US gov's intention was not at all to shut down TikTok. It was to force ByteDance to sell it. The fact that ByteDance is opting for a shutdown instead is a huge PR stunt, and their unwillingness to sell under the circumstances kinda proves their whole First Amendment claims are made in bad faith. Something deeper is going on, and it's not about your social security number.
    • whimsicalism 2y ago
      i think there are obvious reasons why bytedance would not want to spawn a US-based competitor and why a US only social media network would be ineffective. this is exactly the same as what China does with their gfw, they allow american apps to divest and be owned by a chinese company.
      • suraci 2y ago
• rvz 2y ago
  Once again, digital drug addicts getting their supply cut off and running to the next hit. Neither this TikTok "ban" or the new app "Rednote" are going to last in the long term. They will run back to TikTok again. Would have been better to fine TikTok in the billions just like we already have done for Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and all the other social networks. But this is all temporary.
• lvl155 2y ago
  Why doesn’t China simply open up for domestic competition? What are they afraid of? It’s a serious question. Are they that much afraid of their consumers switching to Western products? I frankly think it’s overblown. Chinese people will simply stick with homegrown products at this point. It’s way too entrenched for anyone to enter their market and succeed. I think they have made enough progress to open up their markets and they have so much to lose by growing anti-sino sentiments abroad all because they didn’t want US tech monopolies to compete in their home turf. Maybe 10 years ago it made sense but Chinese tech companies can compete on merits at this point. They have the ecosystem to compete without govt protection.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • ajross 2y ago
    > What are they afraid of? Definitely not the consumption of foreign products. The PRC remains a totalitarian government which built itself on an environment where they exert total control over public communication. There are long lists of topics that you simply cannot cover, analyze, talk about or even discuss privately via internet media in China. There's no way to do that if those discussions happen on Snapchat via a data center in Oregon. Does the CCP need to do that? It's a reasonable question with answers more complicated than I'll be able to offer. But for sure they want (desperately) to do it. Thus, no foreign media in China.
  • gmm1990 2y ago
    Pretty sure Google was allowed but decided to pull out (maybe due to censorship demands from China) not sure about facebook.
    • RobotToaster 2y ago
      Facebook was allowed until 2009, it was blocked because it was allegedly used by ETIM to organise the 2009 Urumqi riots, and facebook refused to cooperate with the Chinese police.
  • wavemode 2y ago
• neilv 2y ago
  I have some concerns about TikTok, as well as with a shutdown, but if I can imagine a silver lining of a TikTok shutdown, it would be if huge numbers of teens are inspired to learn the tools and awarenesses to not be total b-words of Big Tech. In this fantasy, initially it would just be to get onto a particular Big Tech (but Chinese) thing that "grownups" don't want them doing. But then they'd start to realize they're also being exploited there, and also by many of the people who are pitching circumventions. And eventually they'd figure out and create genuine empowerment. And rediscover better conventions for society, where everyone isn't either exploiting or being dumb. And it would just be the grownups who are hopelessly b-words of Big Tech, and the teens just have to roll their eyes and be patient with them. Then those teens become grownups and have kids, and raise them to not be airhead b-words. And those kids teach their kids, etc. Of course, within several generations, the lessons would be diluted and then forgotten, and people would get dumb and shitty again. But society would have improved enough that at least there's room for people to backslide, and fritter away what their great-grandparents achieved. :)
  • cruffle_duffle 2y ago
    That would be amazing, honestly. Big Tech needs to get the fuck out of our lives...
• ericyd 2y ago
  > TikTok... estimates one-third of the 170 million Americans using its app would stop accessing the platform if the ban lasts a month. If customers care that little about the product, maybe it's a good sign that it isn't providing significant value to their lives.
  • BrawnyBadger53 2y ago
    You can also read this as despite being banned TikTok expects 2/3 users to find ways to circumvent the ban
• affinepplan 2y ago
  surely this will be the big break for bluesky
  • low_common 2y ago
    Haha there's no shot. Apples and oranges - completely different platforms and features.
    • affinepplan 2y ago
      I know, it was sarcasm
• hermannj314 2y ago
  The "War on Drugs" ensured that when an American dies from a drug overdose it is an American company, like Purdue Pharma, that made money killing them. And when an American is brainwashed into believing a lie, it better damn well be an American company that sold them that lie. That is the dream this country was built on.
• serenadeineb 2y ago
  Congress shall make no law respecting ... or the right of the people peaceably to assemble ... unless they mumble 'national security', and then screw the constitution ...
  • bdcravens 2y ago
    Congress does have the power to regulate foreign commerce however. Not that I disagree with you, but rarely can something be distilled to a single concern.
    • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
      It is a balancing act for sure, but is it 'right' to have all those choices, but only as long as they sufficiently support governing body overall worldview?
  • lm28469 2y ago
    Americans finally discovering their constitution is interpreted all day every day is the funniest thing on the internet. You also don't have free speech, and your rights to bear arm are very restricted.
  • zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    Foreign corporations do not have free speech rights.
    • nness 2y ago
      I actually think that they do — tourists to the US have free speech protections. There are many foreign-owned press outlets operating in the US (Forbes, Al Jazeera, RT, CGTN etc.) that are also protected by the first amendment.
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      • deleted 2y ago
• bbqfog 2y ago
  I downloaded Rednote and was already blown away by just the app quality. So much better than X. I'd never used TikTok but I really hate the idea of our government censoring what I can and cannot see. Rednote has a bunch of great content on it too. Thanks for the Streisand rec US gov!
  • hersko 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • bbqfog 2y ago
      It’s good to get fresh perspectives, especially when the military industrial complex wants to hide them from you.
  • jimbob45 2y ago
    ?? X/Twitter is not the main competitor to TikTok/RedNote. Meta's Instagram/Instagram Reels is.
    • seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      And YouTube Shorts?
    • bbqfog 2y ago
      I was commenting more on the code quality and app performance. It’s very well written. The content is good too though. It’s nice to see so much amazing Chinese cooking.
• gcr 2y ago
  小红书 (pronounced Xiaohongshu) is the Chinese version of TikTok by Bytedance (EDIT: I’m wrong, it’s a different company, see below). It’s currently #1 on the USA App Store. The people on there are super kind and accommodating to all the “American TikTok refugees” today! Lots of little Mandarin 101 classes, UI tutorials, and co-commiserating about government overreach. I have a negative view of all of social media, but I think banning it is extremely politically unwise. Appreciate the hospitality of these users inviting us into their platform for a bit
  • swang 2y ago
    > 小红书 (pronounced Xiaohongshu) is the Chinese version of TikTok by Bytedance. It’s currently #1 on the USA App Store. 抖音 Douyin is the Chinese version of TikTok by Bytedance...
    • gcr 2y ago
      Oops. TIL
  • paxys 2y ago
    No that is a completely different app. The Chinese TikTok (Douyin) isn't on US app stores.
• taylodl 2y ago
  My prediction, based off raising kids and working with teenagers? The teens are going to give a big ol' Yankee Doodle Middle Finger to Uncle Sam. They'll flock to any social media site not hosted by a US megacorp. If you don't understand why that would be then I posit you haven't spent much time around teens.
  • zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    The concern is China specifically. If TikTok were owned by a German company there wouldn’t have been any concerns.
    • taylodl 2y ago
      Sounds to me like the United States just handed South Korea a gift.
• currymj 2y ago
  obviously bad policy for many reasons, but as a geriatric millennial I'm selfishly happy. As long as the ban continues, I will never have to sit on the bus and listen to those horrible robot voices blasting nonsense out of someone's phone speakers.
  • zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    I’m sure they will move to some other platform.
  • SiempreViernes 2y ago
    Are you sure you're actually thinking of people using youtube shorts or facebook?
  • arduinomancer 2y ago
    There’s nothing worse than listening to the audio of someone else scrolling TikTok Hearing the same 10 second clip of a song 20 times
  • darknavi 2y ago
    If Vine dying taught us anything its that the content from Tiktok will outlive the platform by being reposted to others. That voice will never die unfortunately.
  • NoPicklez 2y ago
    You probably might not know whether that's coming from Tiktok, or instagram, facebook, youtube reels and shorts. Tiktoks isn't the only provider of that type of content.
• paxys 2y ago
  Anyone remember when they were in school and adults tried to ban access to a popular website? I imagine this ban will go down exactly the same. Never underestimate a bored teenager's ability to bypass tech restrictions. Heck maybe this is what is needed to finally get a new generation out of the comforts of their tech walled garden and get their hands dirty.
  • rsanek 2y ago
    how would this actually work? iOS is so dominant among US teens it's crazy, and the ability to sideload on that platform is nonexistent even to very technically savvy users.
    • paxys 2y ago
      If the holding power of TikTok is strong enough (which it just might be) then you might actually see teens start to switch to Android.
      • whimsicalism 2y ago
        you won’t
        • sudosysgen 2y ago
          I don't think it would be as unlikely as you'd think. It's not impossible for a significant amount of people to get a cheap Android for these apps, after all iPhones are a result of iMessage.
          • kube-system 2y ago
            I think it's more likely that people would simply use the browser
          • ketzo 2y ago
            “Large portions of US teens will get second phones for one specific social media app” is an absolutely wild thing to predict seriously
• abeppu 2y ago
  > The outcome of the shutdown would be different from that mandated by the law. The law would mandate a ban only on new TikTok downloads on Apple or Google app stores, while existing users could continue using it for some time. Does anyone have thoughts on why TikTok would choose to stop for existing users? I.e. why would they choose to do more than the minimum required by the law? It's nice that they want to point people to a way to download their data, but they could also keep showing videos after notifying people of that option. What's the rationale here?
  • voxic11 2y ago
    The downloading your data thing is actually part of what is required by law.
  • sneak 2y ago
    Drawing attention to the stupidity and agenda-driven approach of the USG by causing pain to millions of users, is my guess.
  • dylan604 2y ago
    The obvious play would be to incite those active users to take action by letting their congress critters know their opinions in an effort to have them reverse their vote
    • whimsicalism 2y ago
      those plays can easily backfire - like when tiktok first did it although there are success cases, like prop 22 in california and uber
      • dylan604 2y ago
        The threat of losing something vs actually losing something is not the same though. If TikTok did something with all of the tracking data they did for each user so they could show the contact information for their Rep and Senators to make it easy for everyone with clickable links directly to phone numbers/emails would increase that engagement. It would also just show how creepy AF their tracking is. So maybe just a screen like PH does that refuses access to their content with a screen that says talk to your reps.
• Funes- 2y ago
  I dream of the day we give ourselves a decentralized protocol that, while providing an opt-in way of following current events, offers us an extreme breadth of content without being a hypercapitalistic, attention-grabbing nightmare that tries to get us to compulsively consume absolute junk constantly, at the cost of everything else. In the meantime, looks like Sunday is gonna be a fun day.
  • smeggysmeg 2y ago
    ActivityPub is exactly that. Mastodon, Pleroma, Pixelfed, etc. What you're asking for exists.
    • Funes- 2y ago
      It doesn't. I'm talking about true decentralization (peer to peer), not federation (the worst of both worlds). It should also be uncensorable and come with some implementation that does away entirely with the idea of "social media" or "microblogging". Just a better version of what the web 1.0 was.
      • pkkkzip 2y ago
        true decentralization means it will be rife with bad actors taking over the network in decentralized methods. it won't work and will be ultimately result for illegal activities. decentralization != morally beneficial for the masses.
        • pishpash 2y ago
          So do the masses have the wisdom to rule themselves or do they need a paternalistic gatekeeper? Pick one.
          • pkkkzip 2y ago
            Was your father a gatekeeper?
      • 2y ago
• captainepoch 2y ago
  Hope they do that worldwide soon too!
• ChrisArchitect 2y ago
  What if any practical effect will this have on American users if 150M of them already have the app downloaded? A pop-up that doesn't block use of the app? Haven't seen anything about an IP ban/block (ahem, great firewall), nothing's going to block anyone from business as usual on Sunday right? There's no 'shut down'. And other than a bunch of misinformed users jumping over to RedNote briefly or whatever, the only difference will be an oddly American-free app for the rest of the world?
  • fckgw 2y ago
    Yes, you can do an IP block and you can also detect VPN clients and block those. If the companies is barred from doing business with US users then they will be required to take reasonable steps to block those users.
    • hiatus 2y ago
      > If the companies is barred from doing business with US users then they will be required to take reasonable steps to block those users. Or what? I don't think a US-brought lawsuit would succeed in China.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • codingdave 2y ago
    According to the article, they are voluntarily shutting down in the USA despite that not being required by the law. So yes, there is a potential shut down. Time will tell is they really do it.
• 34679 2y ago
  I've never felt inclined to use TikTok. I've always kept my online presence psuedo-anonymous, all the way back to AOL days. I don't use Meta products at all. The day TikTok is banned I will create an account and post a video showing my face, in which I will state my name and address.
• ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  I'm not assigning a cause, but US culture, these days, seems to encourage folks to treat others as "NPCs," and that can have rather bad consequences. It's always been an issue (sort of human nature), but it seems (to this battered old warhorse), that it's a lot more prevalent, these days, than it was, just twenty years ago.
  • theaussiestew 2y ago
    Can you elaborate on this phenomena?
    • ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
      Just that we consider "others," (with the exception of a close entourage) to be "non-player characters." Basically, shallow simulacrums, with no feelings, standalone, not connected with others, and that can be "disposed of," or "forgotten," with no personal consequences. We don't have to allow anyone other than ourselves, any agency or consideration. That makes it very easy to reduce everyone else into one-dimensional caricatures, easy to attack, dismiss or neglect. Like I said, this has always been a feature of normal human tribalism, but it seems to have gotten a shot of steroids, sometime recently. I have found, for myself, that closely interacting with as many others as possible; especially ones that challenge me, has helped me to avoid that.
    • jacobgkau 2y ago
      A semi-related term to the "NPC" thing is "main character syndrome." It's usually used derogatorily, but it's the idea that someone thinks they're the "main character" of the world; the people they care about are side characters who matter less, and people they don't care about (or know) don't matter at all. "The self as the center of the universe" is another way to phrase it. Not sure entirely how that's connected to this thread's topic, but it is relevant in social media in general (and maybe TikTok moreso because of its "great" algorithm?)
• vitalurk 2y ago
  This move shouts “you win China, your products are superior than ours”. We hate losing at our own game don’t we?
  • smoovb 2y ago
    As China bans TikTok too, this move shouts “We don’t want this app either.”
    • WesleyJohnson 2y ago
      Because neither government wants a well-educated, knowledgeable population. Carlin was trying to teach us that for decades and it still rings true.
• sschueller 2y ago
  I wonder if this will have an effect on iPhone sales vs Android. On android the app can easily be side loaded while on iPhone (in the US) it's incredibly difficult for the average user.
• no-dr-onboard 2y ago
  It's really rare for me to be pro-intervention when it comes to the government vs free-industry but TikTok has become undeniably, geopolitically hazardous for the US. The dismal bit of it is that nation state backed, habit-forming propaganda apps are only likely to proliferate.
  • abeppu 2y ago
    I continue to be baffled by people who simultaneously believe that TikTok is dangerous because of Chinese propaganda that may happen in the future, but that all the other social media networks are not dangerous despite the mostly Russian misinformation and election interference that has been ongoing since 2016. So far as I can see the important part is not who owns the network, but just how easy it is for misinformation to be published, and basic info like "is this poster a real human?" or "was this person paid to say this?" or "is this a factually incorrect statement?" are not readily visible to users.
    • drawkward 2y ago
      Ban all social media.
    • no-dr-onboard 2y ago
      > but that all the other social media networks are not dangerous despite the mostly Russian misinformation and election interference that has been ongoing since 2016 You can affirm one thing without affirming similar arguments. This is important for me to say because you're consigning me to an argument that I didn't make.
  • ossobuco 2y ago
    Can you provide examples of China controlled propaganda happening on Tiktok? Things that are factually true don't count, obviously.
    • qvrjuec 2y ago
      Surely you can't think propaganda is just spreading lies... Contextual presentation can change how true information is perceived. Seeing a perspective more will align your own with it.
• exabrial 2y ago
  Honestly I'm fine with this. I look forward to a break from the nonsense until whatever comes next to replace it.
• ergonaught 2y ago
  US citizens do not want this. Every news article descending into tangents on any other point than that is part of why we can't have nice things. The whole country has turned into some sort of lower primate improv troupe where whatever stupid thing comes up gets a "Yes and let's" diversion instead of an adult in the room standing up and cutting the crap.
  • doctorpangloss 2y ago
    > US citizens do not want this Ha ha, I guess you are discovering, many many people do want this.
    • tills13 2y ago
      No one who actually uses it or understands it wants this. This is like vegans banning steak.
      • doctorpangloss 2y ago
        You're getting it. It is like vegans banning steak! > "lower primate improv troupe" > "No one who actually uses it or understands it wants this." "Everyone's generalizations are stupid, except mine."
      • loeg 2y ago
        It's like the non-addicts banning heroin. You don't have to be a Tik Tok user to understand that it's bad for it to be PRC-controlled!
        • dvngnt_ 2y ago
          yeah because they wont censor gaza information
        • kjkjadksj 2y ago
          That is a fine take, but the assumption that all other forms of media masses of people are exposed to aren’t also propaganda is a foolish one to make. We have an entire advertising industry in this country. Something like $300 billion in ad spend a year in the US. Ad spend is literally propaganda lest we forget.
• moi2388 2y ago
  One thing that would make social media much better, is forcing providers by law to ensure everybody sees the same content. Example: I can be on Reddit in subreddit A. You can be on Reddit in subreddit B. We would obviously still see different content. But ALL members of subreddit A MUST see the exact same topics in the exact same order with the exact same comments and likes/dislikes. This would help build up a more shared “worldview” like mediums such as radio and TV did; you chose the channel, but everybody on the same channel gets the same information. This would then allow the service provider and potentially government agencies, as well as users themselves, to moderate harmful content or false information more reliably.
  • krainboltgreene 2y ago
    > One thing that would make social media much better, is forcing providers by law to ensure everybody sees the same content. This sounds terrible. I don't want to see the same content as everyone else. A good chunk of Youtube right now is rightwing content that I don't have to see.
    • moi2388 2y ago
      You won’t. You will still see the videos from the channels you subscribed to. It’s just that everybody subscribing to that particular channel most get the same information from it; the same videos, the same comments, the same likes/dislikes
      • krainboltgreene 2y ago
        I'm going to blow your mind, but at one point you weren't subscribed to the channel. You found that channel likely through the algo.
  • zamadatix 2y ago
    Originally (and I don't know if this is still the case) the case for randomizing the content view on Reddit a bit (fuzzy numbering) was as a layer which helped prevent vote manipulation and brigading/bandwagoning. There may be similar reason for other platforms where not being exactly the same is unrelated to tuning the types of information presented to people. I.e. I don't know how much it matters that "all member absolutely must see the same exact order" as much as "the ordering defaults are not gamed for individual engagement" Even then, I'd settle for "must have the option to use chronological/absolute vote based/similar type by default" type option. I'm not as convinced I know what others need to do to save themselves as much as I'm I think it'd be nice if it to be easy for us to be able to choose how we engage with content feeds (regardless what the platform is). And then there is a matter of content groups when it comes to exposure rather than the addictive nature. Does it really make a difference if people end up seeing only /r/MyEchoChamberA and /r/MyEchoChamberB anyways. After all, each is perfectly representing the same echo chamber to all of the users who bother to browse there.
• sobellian 2y ago
  At some point SCOTUS will have to revisit the massive deference they give the other branches on natsec issues. We are days away from a new president applying blanket tariffs to everything on the same grounds. What isn't national security in that light? They might as well start with this case and send an early message. Otherwise they'll be fielding all manner of lawsuits over ridiculous overreach for the foreseeable future.
• psunavy03 2y ago
  And nothing of value was lost.
• ado__dev 2y ago
  I created a quick tutorial on how to backup and download all of your TikToks. https://x.com/adocomplete/status/1879568249261621572 https://x.com/adocomplete/status/1879568249261621572
  • yreg 2y ago
    You are linking the wrong script in the initial tweet. You meant to link to this one: https://gist.github.com/kukicado/e92b31601117060f6895ecefc989bf0f https://gist.github.com/kukicado/e92b31601117060f6895ecefc98...
  • xnx 2y ago
    Doesn't "yt-dlp https://www.tiktok.com/@YOURPROFILE https://www.tiktok.com/@YOURPROFILE" also work?
    • ado__dev 2y ago
      oh wow, didn't think that would work, but it does. even better!
• subarctic 2y ago
  So basically, tiktok will be unavailable in the US for 24 hours until Trump takes office and then he'll probably extend the deadline
  • itomato 2y ago
    When the President literally owns a competitor called "Truth Social" do you think he will not take the America First pledge??
• LeroyRaz 2y ago
  Tiktok is obviously a massive national security risk, and I find it funny people don't see that. It is extremely well established that propaganda has great value, and so allowing a foreign adversary the capacity to potentially control the information your citizens receive in a clandestine way is insanely dangerous.
  • the_sleaze_ 2y ago
    Reddit is the exact same - just a propaganda machine
    • redactd 2y ago
      I disagree. While I think there are definitely biases on Reddit, there is a difference between users, individual moderators, or even established sub policies having a political leaning versus an algorithmically masked propaganda machine like TikTok. Call me old fashion, but I put more faith in a profit seeking US company (recently public) with light government oversight than a foreign owned black box.
      • barbazoo 2y ago
        You might be missing the fact that there is a significant amount of bots on Reddit pushing certain agendas giving the impression they're foreign sponsored.
        • redactd 2y ago
          you may be right that there is a, "significant amount of bots on Reddit pushing certain agendas". However, Reddit is fundamentally designed to incentivize authentic engagement and to punish bots. If it wasn't the case before is certainly is now given the fact that they are now extracting value from the authenticity of data on their platform via AI Training data sales. Reddit is fiduciarily encouraged to tamp down bots and spam because they are financially incentivized to have the most genuine data. All of that aside it is irrelevant because we are talking about third parties (users/bots) pushing propaganda vs the platform owner itself pushing propaganda.
• Rebuff5007 2y ago
  I'm tearing my hair out... how is the solution here not just better data privacy laws? Doesn't that solve all the issues, both domestic and international?
  • dyauspitr 2y ago
    Privacy is irrelevant in this case. It’s a free line of propaganda for almost all our youth at their most vulnerable age.
    • thiagoharry 2y ago
      Yeah, at this age,they need to be fed only with US propaganda, just to be sure. Too bad that another country produced a better product to that demography.
  • syspec 2y ago
    Because it's not necessarily about the / data privacy/, it's about the ability of a foreign adversary to influence the American populous in subtle ways over time. By simply suppressing topics, or elevating trends they might find helpful in swaying the populous. That's what propaganda is and it works.
    • ossobuco 2y ago
      > By simply suppressing topics, or elevating trends they might find helpful in swaying the populous. Isn't that exactly what US media does as well? Every media has an owner with his own interests, the information they'll provide you will be carefully crafted to not harm those interests.
      • havefunbesafe 2y ago
        Best case: I am not propagandized by any state media || Second worst case: I am propagandized by my own country's media || Worst case: I am propagandized by a foreign adversary's media
• zackmorris 2y ago
  TikTok practically saved my life by exposing me to alternate worldviews and the spiritual nature of existence, so the US government singling it out feels like a personal attack to me. To think of all of the people earning independent side incomes on TikTok - one of the few places outside of eBay/Craigslist/Uber/etc where that's even still possible - who will lose that lifeline, well, words like travesty barely convey the loss. I also don't buy the national security argument. Considering how much of our personal data is leaked through all of the other social media apps, as well as international ad markets, that argument is nonsense. This is about the US government and corporations going to any length to control the narrative as the US falls to authoritarian dystopia and fascism. I'm disappointed in the Democratic Party for not standing up for free speech and the rights of its constituency. It's forgotten where it came from, and what its goals are. This move means that there effectively is no Democratic Party - we just have two Republican Parties, both beholden to their corporate overlords (Meta and X/Twitter), as well as the billionaires behind them (Zuckerberg and Musk). It's also tragic beyond words that Donald Trump may be viewed as TikTok's savior if he lifts the ban after he takes office. After he has undermined so many aspects of American tradition and our institutions. It reeks. And most of all, I'm at least as mad at all of you as I am at myself for not organizing to stop this ban. 170 million TikTok users and we can't come together in solidarity to have real leverage on our elected officials? As in, withholding our participation in keeping the web running? Talk about ineffectual. The more time goes by, the more I'm giving up on the tech scene. We've lost our values on such a fundamental level that we are now the clear and present danger threatening the American democratic experiment. Shame on all of us. If we keep losing the way we are, and with the rise of AI and unprecedented wealth inequality, we have maybe 5-10 years left before revolution. We've entered a Cold Civil War, divided along ideological lines. I dearly hope I'm wrong and it doesn't come to violence, but after watching America's decline as a beacon of freedom post-9/11, the safest bet is continued cynicism.
  • tolerance 2y ago
    > TikTok practically saved my life by exposing me to alternate worldviews and the spiritual nature of existence If what you say is true then perhaps the credit is due to something that’s Above being subject to the whims of society & you never needed the clock app & “the beacon of freedom” was acqui-hired sometime around the age you think we’re headed back toward & the cynics are the sages.
• jrflowers 2y ago
  Has anyone written up exactly how TikTok is a distinct national security risk? The best I’ve heard is “they get your data”, which is something they surely can buy from Facebook through an intermediary, “they influence content”, which is a moderation decision that every social media app does, and “there’s a part of the report to congress that’s redacted”, that could be a recipe for tuna casserole for all I know. Edit: I’m assuming the downvotes are a way of saying “no”? I would assume that “national security threat” would involve some sort of concrete standard of harm or risk that could be communicated beyond “just trust us”. I haven’t even seen concrete examples of what content they influence, just people assuring everyone that it happens and it’s Bad.
• 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
  Perhaps other countries will also regulate or ban social media companies.
  • samtheprogram 2y ago
    Countries like China, where TikTok is from, already ban US social media. The other countries you’re presumably thinking of are our allies and typically our propaganda aligns with their (governments’) interests. China’s interests do not.
  • ponty_rick 2y ago
    IMO they should be for children under 15.
  • 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
    https://www.newsweek.com/australia-social-media-ban-teens-which-countries-united-kingdom-elon-musk-1989450 https://www.newsweek.com/australia-social-media-ban-teens-wh...
  • pyrale 2y ago
    I'm rooting for a Twitter ban in Europe. Musk has shown willingness to temper with elections in at least two European countries, and the ban would also leave a message for Zuck.
    • cbeach 2y ago
      You'd rather bad actors like Soros used their $billions to manipulate elections in the shadows? At least Musk is upfront. Like many celebrities he's chosen to endorse a political candidate and make donations. Like many celebrities he has large influence. But the difference with Musk is he's supporting a political side that you don't like.
      • pyrale 2y ago
        Foreign interference is foreign interference. If you don't tolerate it at home, don't promote it abroad.
• seventytwo 2y ago
  Good. And I want this to set a precedent that we CAN reign in the social media companies.
• tdiff 2y ago
  Americans may turn to experience of other countries. E.g. in Russia Istagram has been blocked for years, however it does not really stop everyone from using or running business in it.
• baxtr 2y ago
  > Privately held ByteDance is about 60% owned by institutional investors such as BlackRock and General Atlantic, while its founders and employees own 20% each. It has more than 7,000 employees in the United States That’s probably a very stupid question, but is how this is a Chinese company when 60% are owned by American funds?
  • lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Presumably, the relevant factor here is not ownership on paper, but who has real control via being able to tell Bytedance employees (including the executives) what to do. Which, in this case, is assumed to be China’s government leaders.
    • 0xffff2 2y ago
      Presumably, yes, but is that actually how it works? I think we need a primer on how Chinese companies are structured. What does it mean to own 60% of a company if that doesn't give you any real control over the company?
      • lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Control can be separated from who is owed what share of economic profits. For example, some Alphabet and Meta shares having more voting power than others. On a more pragmatic level, even in the US "own" means what society will defend for you. However, the US (and other western countries) are presumed to have courts that have a higher probability of defending claims of ownership assuming you have the right paperwork. Whereas in places like China, it is presumed that your paperwork is less likely to entitle you to a defense.
  • hedgehog 2y ago
    Same way the Singaporean CEO is part of the CCP: He's not, it's not, but there are a lot of vested interests like Facebook lobbying to treat them as the boogeyman.
    • 2y ago
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• mproud 2y ago
  Won’t the website still work? Or do kids these days only open apps?
• thorum 2y ago
  I don’t understand why, with so much advanced warning that users would need a good replacement for TikTok, YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels are still so bad. Why not invest in matching, at least, every TikTok UX feature? And beyond that, how are these two leading AI companies really unable to make a recommendation algorithm that actually shows people things they like?
  • nonethewiser 2y ago
    We'd be better off without a clone, whether its owned by a Western company or not.
  • xnx 2y ago
    I agree that it is unusual that YouTube and Instagram don't seem to be trying harder to court TikTok users. I assume this is because it would expose how much of an unpopular alternative they are. The user base is probably more important to the quality of the feed than the interface or the algorithm.
  • dqv 2y ago
    No really. The Shorts and Reels algorithms are so one dimensional. They both interpreted me disliking smug milquetoast rants about Republicans and Democrats as not wanting politics in my feed at all. I do want the politics, but I don't need it hammered into my head that Republicans are dumb as bricks. I don't need to see the performative Tom Cotton and Jasmine Crockett clips that have already been shown 100 times. TikTok's algo, OTOH, somehow understands that interests are multi-dimensional and that maybe I just want a different kind of politics or discussions that go deeper than cheap shots. I never in my life thought I'd encounter an anti-Marxist right-libertarian who actually read and is familiar with all three volumes of Capital, but TikTok figured out that I'd find it interesting.
• gaoshan 2y ago
  Banning individual apps in this manner is wrong, IMO. In a country where concepts like freedom of speech and restrictions on government censorship are not insignificant considerations (in theory, at a minimum) a decision like this is unfortunate. China bans apps... tons of apps... in order to maintain strict control over the content and identity of users. This strategy is not something the US should be mimicking. The claim that it's a "national security" risk and the ban is needed to mitigate that is silly. If it is really that then ban it from government facilities and devices. The actual risk from TikTok is no greater than the risk from Facebook, Instagram or any of a myriad of apps. The correct thing to do would be to strengthen laws that address the core concerns so that we are protected from ANY app that represents a threat to privacy or security. Just banning a single app (and then another, and another...) is ridiculous and goes against a number of things this country is supposed to stand for.
  • randomopining 2y ago
    So what if a conflict breaks out and the CCP essentially use TikTok as a pathway directly into the brains of millions of Americans. Let's say they tweak the algorithm with a button press to create confusion and public discord when we should be united to protect taiwan. That's a possible tool of disinformation.
    • ok_dad 2y ago
      WHAT IF aliens invade and take over TikTok and then use it to convince hard-working Americans to dive into the mouths of the aliens? It's a possible tool for aliens to make lunch.
      • kccoder 2y ago
        One of those scenarios is much more likely than the other.
        • herbst 2y ago
          You (the US) should definitely make same laws banning aliens from owning social media before it's to late! Think about the children!!1!
• spyder 2y ago
  So they want to ban only the mobile app, but the Tiktok website would still work from the mobile browsers? Huh... I guess they can get less user data from the website than an app, but the content manipulation and the usage data collection could still happen that way if that's the real fear of the US...
  • warner25 2y ago
    This part is unclear to me. I know the article says "app," but this is general news reporting, and the term "web app" for stuff in the browser is acceptable terminology anyway. It also says that opening the app will redirect people to a page with information about the ban, not to the main page of the website. Prior to this discussion, I thought a ban at the ISP or CDN level was part of the plan, so a VPN would be required to circumvent it. No? [I made the same comment elsewhere, but I'm putting it here too because I'm really puzzled by this.]
    • swatcoder 2y ago
      TikTok is ostensibly a commercial product meant to earn revenue that offset costs, and those costs are tremendous. Meanwhile, the ban will make it impossible for them to (a) enter into trade relationships with the advertisers and other partners that bring in revenu, and (b) share that revenue with monetized users. Continuing to run it at scale as a website without ads or monetization payouts (and without any legal protections) would pretty well blow the cover of it being a legitimate international business.
      • warner25 2y ago
        That makes sense, but means that banning it from making money through (a) and (b) would be sufficient to kill it quickly (if it's a legitimate business, as you said), without directly taking it away from users and causing so much political uproar.
        • swatcoder 2y ago
          That amounts to the same thing and ByteDance would present it as the same thing in their PR effort, so nothing material would be different. Meanwhile, the kind of law that would allow a business to "operate" but disallow it from making money is probably close to unprecedented and would look like even more peculiar targeting. It doesn't really even make sense as operating a business naturally implies participating in commerce.
• tossandthrow 2y ago
  Let's remember this when the discussion again centers around the US' immense commercial success. It is easy when you have been placed at an advantageous place and use all the tricks in the book against competition.
• tnt128 2y ago
  Let’s be clear about one thing: it’s never about protecting the privacy of private citizens—that’s just the justification. Social networking platforms are among the most effective tools for mass influence, second only to religion. The U.S. has held a monopoly on this power, leveraging it to gather data on citizens worldwide and projecting our value systems onto others. Banning TikTok is simply an effort by us to maintain that monopoly, and making sure a foreign adversary do not wield such power.
  • avalys 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • golemiprague 2y ago
    [dead]
  • mullingitover 2y ago
    The US censorship of Chinese social media apps on these grounds sure makes it look like China was completely justified in doing it first.
    • some_random 2y ago
      Could you elaborate on that? I have no clue how the US banning TikTok for granting the CCP the ability to algorithmically influence the views of Americans somehow justifies the decade plus of the GFW, blocking Western social media, rampant censorship, etc.
      • mullingitover 2y ago
        The US government has never provided any direct evidence of their claims of CCP puppet-mastery, the whole thing is generally some combination of "Trust me bro" and "Well obviously China's government is gonna control a Chinese company." Meanwhile China's reasoning for blocking US companies has been eerily similar arguments the entire time. Hard to prove them wrong when we have the major aristocrats of US tech companies completely prostrating themselves at Mar-a-Lago, offering bribes (er, sorry, the going term is "funding inauguration parties") to the incoming administration in broad daylight, staffing themselves with party officials, etc. Arguably both are right, and it's a shame because the general working class people of both nations have more in common with each other than they do with their ruling classes. I think the thing that terrifies those in authority the most is the idea that the citizenry might realize this if there's enough communication.
• bigbacaloa 2y ago
  [dead]
• xnx 2y ago
  Any guesses on how this will actually work? The apps will be definitely be removed from app stores. Will existing apps work? Will the website still work? Will the death of the app come from "creators" not getting paid? What if users continue to use tikok, but there are no longer professional creators or ads? Would a social network like that be the most radical of all?
  • teqsun 2y ago
    Tiktok is popular on a global level. They'll just block access to US users with a link to the details of the ban, and let things stew up the heat until the US budges.
• hnpolicestate 2y ago
  I was surprised most by the general publics ignorance regarding possible work arounds. Nobody I spoke to on large Tik Tok lives believed it was even possible to download and install apps from somewhere other than the Play Store. Apple users believed their ability to install apps was identical to Android users In the future I think the government can force the public to do things simply because the public is unaware of the options they have. The good news is Rednote seems to be a potential replacement, which is also Chinese owned.
• andrewla 2y ago
  Let's just be clear on what this is. Supporting a TikTok ban has several valuable benefits to politicians. 1. You look tough on China 2. You look like you're being tough on "misinformation" 3. You get to look like you are in favor of privacy 4. You get to implicitly support the American competitors of this product 5. You get to look like you're helping kids by getting rid of something that they like but older voters are skeptical about 6. None of this affects the supply chain so won't impose consumer costs None of these things are real (except the competitors and supply chain ones)
• kgeist 2y ago
  Lots of American social media are banned here by the Russian government (all for the same reason of protecting citizens from foreign avdersaries), and we just use VPN. We're used to it, and if a service is popular (like Instagram), it's practically impossible to ban it. Monetization provided by the service is replaced by embedding sponsors' videos directly in the video (and getting money directly from the sponsor without third parties), or by selling merchendize to fans. I wonder how many Americans will just use VPN? Is it common to use VPN in the US? Here, almost everyone uses it now. A few weeks ago they suddenly banned Viber for some reason and I barely noticed it.
  • 4xAM 2y ago
    [dead]
  • NoPicklez 2y ago
    As someone in Australia which I assume is fairly similar, we really don't use VPN's, at the very least the average person doesn't and their use isn't common knowledge. However I have friends in China like you, where VPN's are used by the majority. We are used to having access to pretty much everything we want access to. The most popular apps and services used around the world are largely readily available in the US and do not need VPN's to use. A Tiktok ban is in my memory probably the first time that a major platform used by the masses has been banned for use in the US. Because of the lack of VPN usage by every day people, I'd say everyone will flock to Instagram rather than continuing to try accessing Tiktok. If nobody else you know is using Tiktok, then why use it would be the question.
  • montag 2y ago
    Almost nobody uses a VPN here, just the geeks and people who need it for their corporate job. We're not used to this at all.
• TulliusCicero 2y ago
  I'm fine with this, based on the simple principle of Turnabout Is Fair Play. China already bans practically all the popular US social media apps and similar apps/websites. I'm for free trade, but it ought to be fair trade too, as in, roughly similar/equal policies. If another country bans X imports from your own, it's hardly unfair to respond in kind.
  • 0x5f3759df-i 2y ago
    This is exactly it. If China allowed fully uncensored American social media to operate in China I’d had zero issue letting them do the same in the US. But the CCP wants to have their cake and eat it too. Fully repressive social media lock downs and censorship for their citizens but exploiting the west’s values of free speech and debate.
    • TulliusCicero 2y ago
      To be clear, it's not just that China won't let Western websites operate uncensored as businesses within China targeting the Chinese market. It's also that people within China can't access the foreign websites and apps (without using a VPN), because China's Internet firewall blocks that access! That's what makes it an incontrovertible ban! Even if a company has no interest in operating as a business within China in the first place, China may still block the websites and apps. That's a ban no matter how you slice it.
      • culi 2y ago
        On the other hand, the reason these bans are in place have very specific origins. Facebook for example refused to provide Chinese authorities with information on domestic terrorists in 2009. Facebook has never pulled that off in a western country. Meanwhile TikTok has worked very hard to work with authorities in the US for pretty much any of their demands. I don't support any of these bans but I don't think its fair to equate these.
        • TulliusCicero 2y ago
• thrance 2y ago
  A few months ago I'd have cheered on this news but now that Zuckerberg has made his coming out and basically promised to turn Instagram and Facebook into yet more MAGA echo chambers, I feel... conflicted. I do still think the world would be better with less social media, but the only words in my mind right now are "not like this".
• nojvek 2y ago
  Zuckerberg and Elon got what they wanted. Regulatory capture. Got the govt to ban a superior product. Elon even gets dips on acquiring it and expanding his megaphone. I guess US is becoming more like China. Choosing their horses and warding off competition. So much for free markets.
  • thrance 2y ago
    Welcome to Oligarchy America. From now on billionaires will get their hands on whatever they can, with a shining approval from the government and the FTC. DOGE will privatize what's left of public services so they can have that too. And when that's done they'll consolidate into a few monopolies and we'll basically be back in the Gilded Age.
• xnx 2y ago
  How many users does Genshin Impact need to have before it gets banned?
• unit_circle 2y ago
  This is very welcome as a parent in the USA. It is also sound legally, and was a long time coming. Nothing of great value is being lost and in a year users will have moved on to something else. There are two positive effects here: 1. A company that is meaningfully foreign is losing control of a mass media asset. 2. Children and young adults are losing access to a product that is not good for them. A country should not allow foreign powers to control platforms with so much reach--full stop. We do not allow foreign entities to own radio stations... Imagine how much deeper these platforms penetrate a person's mind, and how much larger their audiences are. We should all be MUCH more concerned about how these apps are stretching the social fabric (throughout the world) and how every society's ability to function is effected. I challenge anyone voicing discontent at this result to question whose interests they are voicing. American manipulation of American minds... Yea! That's the point. I'd rather have someone with interests as aligned as possible with mine working for, owning and ultimately making business decisions at these companies. Regulation as appropriate to further align them. Which leads me into my next point: I think that everyone here would argue that TikTok is in a class of its own with regard to very engaging short form content and rapid feedback feed training. I would argue that these attributes make it necessarily vapid and reactionary, providing little to no net benefit to either the individual or society to begin with. If you disagree, what is the value of this product to the user and to society? Does it make people's lives better? I think that when the harms are considered, the answer to both is ultimately no. There are very well-documented negative effects on focus, happiness, and anxiety in children, which persist into adulthood from social media[1]. I don't think it can be argued that something that makes you feel good and connected in the moment but disconnects you from your immediate neighbors and friends and is highly correlated with mental illness is good. Social platforms (TikTok included) are putting our children at a disadvantage mentally compared to previous generations and need to be more regulated. If these platforms (TikTok and other short-form rapid feedback products most of all) are of dubious value to begin with, what is the harm being done here? Finally, I conjecture that we've only gotten a taste so far of how power can be wielded through these instruments. Even if Elon decides NOT wield his asset overtly during this administration, I believe we'll see more overt demonstrations of the power of social media sites in the next few years if relations with China continue to deteriorate and Russia becomes more desperate, with Meta clearly becoming less scrupulous. ---- 1. https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/research/the-evidence https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/research/the-evidence
• mrkramer 2y ago
  This only shows how incompetent Twitter's management was; they not only ruined Twitter but Vine too and gave the opportunity to TikTok to fill the massive vacuum.
• hxegon 2y ago
  It's honestly wild how many people in these comments are defending some vague, unsubstantiated, paper thin national security scare vs recognizing this as a clear suppression of free speech and active stoking of xenophobia. I would genuinely rather drop ship the CCP my SSN/banking info than trust the US government to do something in favor of it's own people when there's lobbying money involved. Why are so many of you pro-government and anti competition only when it comes to tiktok specifically? It's completely the opposite on nearly every other topic from what I've seen.
  • theultdev 2y ago
    Oh stop, it has nothing to do with xenophobia, the CCP has a terrible spying and human rights track record (organ harvesting, concentration camps, child labor, etc.). Nothing to do with the Chinese people as a whole, and everything to do about their overlords. Before you do some whataboutism, yes the US spies, even on it's own citizens. That is a separate issue we should make sure doesn't happen. Two things can be bad and is not an excuse for more spying or letting foreign adversaries broadcast psyops.
    • hxegon 2y ago
      What psyops are you talking about? Is it a bunch of US citizens talking about how they don't like the US bankrolling a genocide? Why is it more important to protect tiktok users from a threat no one can actually point to versus preserving a place a lot of people feel like is very important to their day to day lives? Why are these lawmakers prioritizing this over actual threats like school shootings? Honestly the general opinion is that this is extremely obviously not about national security for anybody I've talked to about this and I can't possibly disagree.
      • theultdev 2y ago
        Yeah that's a good example. Framing Gaza as the victims in this whole ordeal. That's like the 3rd time you dropped Israel in this China topic. Really trying to shoehorn that in eh?
• bloopernova 2y ago
  Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: "As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
  • GlickWick 2y ago
    There's nothing free-flow about TikTok, though. Like Twitter/X, Instagram, etc it's actually a carefully curated experience that can be tuned opaquely by whoever runs it to control the flow of information. The US took umbrage to this being in the direct hands of a foreign adversary.
  • phatfish 2y ago
    Maybe this soundbite applies in an information vacuum like North Korea or ironically, and to a lesser extent, China. But in an environment where there is too much information for people to process, and truth is drowned out by lies and nonsense on social media feeds, it works against society. It's bad enough that US based social media corporations are allowed to wash their hands of responsibility for the content on their platform and add to the executive bonus pool in the process. But having a hostile government control a platform is just insane. There is a middle ground between being bundled into the back of a police car if someone speaks against their government, and freely allowing enemies to manipulate your population.
    • ok_dad 2y ago
      > hostile government I don't recall us being at war or anything with China. For example, most of our crap is made there and shipped here with barely a look. If China were truly hostile and combative like everyone claims, they could literally import bombs and spies via those means. Is this just the Red Scare 2.0? I've had way more issue with American oligarchs and politicians fucking over America's values and our way of life than China in the past few years/decades, that is for sure.
• AcerbicZero 2y ago
  [flagged]
• pipeline_peak 2y ago
  Considering how many of our sites they ban, this seems pretty reasonable.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• gemerald 2y ago
  Good riddance. Hopefully whatever fills its place is stricter on sexual content, insane what kids have been inspired to do on there.
• gigatexal 2y ago
  Do yourself a favor and delete social media and go outside and touch grass. Life was so much better before social media.
• Zak 2y ago
  I'm surprised they're shutting down rather than trying to push the web version. The law does not require ISPs to block the website or forbid anyone from using it; only US-based mobile app stores are affected.
  • Nemo_bis 2y ago
    The Reuters article says > Users who have downloaded TikTok would theoretically still be able to use the app, except that the law also bars U.S. companies starting Sunday from providing services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of it. Are you sure that the website and the native mobile app use different CDNs, or a CDN which won't be affected by the ban?
    • Zak 2y ago
      I'm sure it's possible to serve the website entirely from outside the US. I suppose there's a chance it wouldn't be cost effective.
      • Nemo_bis 2y ago
        Still they'd need networking in the USA. For example they have 11 peerings (100G or 200G) with Equinix. https://www.peeringdb.com/net/19428 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/19428
• pdx6 2y ago
  Here's the lesson: We need our social media platforms to be distributed and out of the hands of any government to promote sharing knowledge and creating peace. When the mass Tiktok exodus tsent Red Book [1] to the top of the App store, it was the first time in history that American citizens started talking directly to Chinese citizens in mass. I've heard all sorts of stories of both sides learning a lot about each other, including the lies and propaganda each others government places in the media, but mostly more positive things like art, fashion, cooking, food, healthcare and -- probably the most important, each other's different humor. Video, and an AI algorithm to drive the For You page, is probably the most difficult part. We have some good ideas on privacy[2], and I can imagine some sort of crypto ledger system paired with AI learning, but video expensive to store/stream and at such a high volume of streaming, I don't know what kind of end points would really work to keep quality up. Then there's the problem of policing such a system, and who the police would be. There's some dark places on the internet that I think everyone but a handful of people think should never be allowed on such a network, but more generally there's questions on politeness, stalking, harassment, "facts", memes, and other culture differences that would need to be ironed out. Who's building this? We need it by Jan 19th, 2025. [1] Not to be confused with SF's Redbook: https://www.wired.com/2015/02/redbook/ https://www.wired.com/2015/02/redbook/ [2] Tim has been making the rounds about his Solid project: https://www.inrupt.com/ https://www.inrupt.com/
• mrtransient 2y ago
  Why can't the decentralized social media be made? What are the technical obstacles for this? Why cant it run in your browser, users could store their content on their own devices and share it P2P. Noone knows whats being shared, no problems with censorships, regulations, laws...
  • leesalminen 2y ago
    Primal.net and yakihonne.com speak nostr protocol and are both pretty slick implementations. Primal recently launched “build your own algorithm” along with a feed marketplace. P2P doesn’t work for social, see SecureScuttleButt. Rabble has moved pretty firmly into the Nostr camp. He’s one of the top minds thinking about decentralized social media. Study nostr and don’t dismiss the relay model lightly.
  • EthicalSimilar 2y ago
    You can do that, except nobody would use it.
  • witherk 2y ago
    It's just ease of use. I tried to make a mastodon account early into the xitter takeover. I spent probably half an hour trying to make a account before I decided if it was gonna take me this long that there was no way it would ever catch on anyway so I should just give up.
  • Sebguer 2y ago
    What kind of content do you think's going to end up filling a platform like that?
  • Nemo_bis 2y ago
    It can. https://loops.video/ https://loops.video/ If it becomes too popular, though, Congress will probably pass a law to force you to use some oligarch-approved alternative.
  • thrance 2y ago
    Even if it was technically doable and user-friendly, you'd end up with a toxic cesspool filled to the brim with neonazis and CSAM, which only deranged individuals would want to engage with.
• ThinkBeat 2y ago
  The Trump attempt to force TikTok to sell or get out failed. Stopped by the courts in 2020 ¹ Then everyone was fine with TikTok more or less. A few departments, if not all banned it, have given warnings about it. Then when Gaza blew up, TikTok was not quick enough to ban all pro Palestine content and that is when congress again decided that it was time to take on TikTok ² ¹ https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-courts-a526c144fad9f0ebc37bf2d49a97740a https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-courts-a526c144fad9f... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93TikTok_co... ² https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/tiktok-ban-israel-palestine-republicans/ https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/tiktok-ban-israel-palest... https://forward.com/culture/688840/tiktok-ban-gaza-palestine-israel-antisemitism/ https://forward.com/culture/688840/tiktok-ban-gaza-palestine... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/tiktok-faces-renewed-calls-for-a-ban-amid-pro-hamas-anti-israel-claims https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/tiktok-faces-renew... https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/tiktok-ban-israel-gaza-palestine-hamas-account-creator-video-rcna122849 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/tiktok-ban-israel-... https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/lawmakers-tiktok-ban-pro-palestinian-content-1235016101/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/lawmaker...
• sabersei2 2y ago
  Looks like we’re about to witness a digital apocalypse...
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• benced 2y ago
  What a weird Jira ticket it must be to get "implement complete turn-off".
  • Nemo_bis 2y ago
    It might be pretty simple, if it's just a protest banner and an information website as Reuters said. You can't see TikTok's issue tracker but you can read the Wikimedia Foundation's tasks to implement the Wikipedia campaigns about SOPA and the 2019 EU copyright directive. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T203095 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T203095 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/English_Wikipedia_anti-SOPA_blackout/Technical_FAQ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/English_Wikipedia_anti-SOPA_...
• 1970-01-01 2y ago
  I don't believe the super addictive, antidemocratic backdoor into US citizens lives is actually getting TKO'd. Crisis is their (misquoted) word for new opportunities[1], and the value of the spy tool is too damn high for it to simply go dark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_crisis
• spprashant 2y ago
  Someone tell me what data TikTok is collecting, that is making it such a national security threat. I guess it knows what videos you like. Awesome, so does every other social media company out there. Its not like the sign up form is asking for upload of SSN and DL. I guess the US is afraid of manipulation of the video feed by China, that may influence elections. There might be a kernel of truth there, so I d be curious to hear anecdotes of something like that actually happening.
  • killerpopiller 2y ago
    its not about their official data collection. It is a safe assumption that TikTok app is used to spy on targeted users and their surroundings, just google it.
    • spprashant 2y ago
      Ok but both Android and iOS have a good permission system where location and other data access can be highly controlled. Isn't it more prudent that the app be restricted by the OS to not have permissions it does not require? Surely the US can enforce something like that.
      • root-user 2y ago
        You don't need to directly tap that information from the phone if you have enough variety of video and an algorithm that will identify and converge on micro-genres of video based on watch time, likes, and shares. Aside from that, Tik-Tok Shop is also a thing. So elements of the application exist where you volunteer data like location.
• quotz 2y ago
  The two reasons behind the TikTok ban: 1. Domestic big tech lobby 2. Domestic Israeli Lobby [1] The China data is just a scapegoat. The risk is very minor. The US is banning TikTok because is a domestic big tech competition, and because lawmakers cant control it. [1] https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/tiktok-ban-israel-palestine-republicans/ https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/tiktok-ban-israel-palest...
• antigeox 2y ago
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• almaight 2y ago
  Do you know Shang Yang's Shangjunlun?Any superior will divide and disintegrate the lower class groups，This is the same everywhere, so who is the real enemy?
  • almaight 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Lord_Shang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Lord_Shang
• hardbants 2y ago
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• mdavid626 2y ago
  Perfect time to ditch TikTok, Instagram Reels and Youtube Shorts and restore your attention span.
• casenmgreen 2y ago
  The one source of true, lasting happiness in life is the love of others. All of this stuff - TikTok, Instagram, etc - are entertainment, distraction, and that's fine, but taken to excess is unbalanced, and no matter what, cannot bring true, lasting happiness because they are not the love of another person.
• ZiiS 2y ago
  From an engineering point of view it is VPN companies that need to be bracing for 1000x spikes.
  • theferalrobot 2y ago
    This isn't a 'great firewall' solution. It just prevents google/apple from hosting it in their app stores. If tiktok wanted to they could still host it from outside the USA and let people access it via the web (or sideload the apk on android). Having said that tiktok has announced if the ban does occur they will shut down service on Sunday.
    • ZiiS 2y ago
      I strongly expect they will shut down service to USA IPs; why on earth would they block anyone else?
• herbst 2y ago
  I don't care about tiktok. But if this is the reality we are stuck in right now. I really hope the EU is banning all the privacy melting Meta apps soon.
• herbst 2y ago
  People in here literally argue that they should build a great Firewall because China has one too. Do these people listen themself when they write things like this? I think it's absolutely worrisome if this mentality gets an actual thing, if it isn't already.
  • junto 2y ago
    I’m puzzled too. By the rationale I read here, Europe should ban all non-European social networks (which would be great since we don’t really have any). Whilst TikTok based propaganda is clearly being used to wage war on European elections, US propaganda targeting Europeans is equally being peddled by US tech giants as well. Social media is truly the worst widely accepted invention of the internet.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• stouset 2y ago
  I find it pretty telling that the two sides of this argument boil down to: 1. This is a platform owned within China which can easily be used to silently and effectively spread highly targeted propaganda to extremely vulnerable demographics. If it has already been used for this purpose we will never know. 2. They make the most engaging internet junk food and other competitors don’t do nearly as good a job. Does that about cover it?
• neves 2y ago
  Americans have a fixation on freedom of speech. They even defend the right for people to express hate speech that would be prohibited anywhere else in the world. Why aren't people outraged by the censorship of TikTok?