30 ms·

Your phone is about to stop being yours

• deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
• smalltorch 6mo ago
  The opt out is graphene os yeah?
  • jnovek 6mo ago
    Yes, but there are issues. You can’t use stuff like banking apps on a modified device and losing access to normal android devices would be a big blow to the momentum of the F-Droid community. GrapheneOS might not be a big enough community to sustain work on the projects delivered by F-Droid.
    • zb3 6mo ago
      > losing access to normal android devices would be a big blow to the momentum of the F-Droid community. For me it seems the opposite - if these "normal" (GMS spyware) Android devices lose the access to F-Droid and it will only be possible to install malware/adware from Google Play, then maybe that will push more people to value unlocking the bootloader..
    • gruez 6mo ago
      >You can’t use stuff like banking apps on a modified device IME such apps are few and far between. The most trouble I ran into is play store refusing to show apps because they claim the app isn't compatible with the device, but that can be worked around with aurora store.
      • deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
      • Sayrus 6mo ago
        I think parent is talking about Play Integrity being integrated into banking apps. It's a hit or miss depending on the bank, some will be fine without, some with integrate it but not rely on it to directly refuse login, some will require a lower integrity level, and some will actually require the highest integrity level leading to issues on custom ROMs.
      • bakugo 6mo ago
        They really aren't. The number of apps requiring Play Integrity grows every day, my own bank's app hasn't worked in years and I've long given up on it, I just use it on a second stock device now. And Google has an answer to the "just install the APK from somewhere else" workaround, too. Many apps now integrate a check that prevents them from running if they're not properly linked to the Play Store.
        • akramachamarei 6mo ago
          Are banking apps much more useful than banking websites, anyway?
          • kube-system 6mo ago
            Depends highly on the bank and what part of the world you're in. Some banks have only a website and no app. Some banks have only an app and no website. Some require an app to access the website. The landscape is widely varied.
          • bakugo 6mo ago
            Don't know what the landscape is like in the US, but here in Europe, many banks require the app for any sort of online payment. There is no alternative. If your phone isn't stock, you're screwed.
      • l72 6mo ago
        My Android is running Lineage without Google Play Services (no microg either). I had an app that I needed to use, and the only available log-in method was via firebase's SMS. Firebase flat out refused to allow me to login because of Google Play Integrity, and there was no web only option. I ended up having to use my spouse's iPhone...
        • gruez 6mo ago
          >My Android is running Lineage without Google Play Services (no microg either). >Firebase flat out refused to allow me to login because of Google Play Integrity Sounds like the issue is that you don't have play services installed, rather than play integrity specifically.
    • skybrian 6mo ago
      [dead]
    • ncr100 6mo ago
      I wonder then if the workaround for THAT (losing access to Banking / "Google trust-deriving apps") is to get a second device, wifi-only no-SIM G-Android. Cumbersome, but any other deterring reasons why "not a good workaround"?
    • handedness 6mo ago
      I know this isn't the case with all banks, but for whatever my anecdata is worth I've been using a number of banking apps on mine for years, so it's incorrect to say that banking apps can't be used.
  • phreack 6mo ago
    Not much, as it only works on very few high end phones not sold in most countries. Hopefully their Motorola partnership will expand its availability but I'm not confident that'll happen anytime soon.
    • zb3 6mo ago
      Sadly forget about it - GrapheneOS will only work on Motorola __flagship__ devices, and most of their budget phones are not even made by Motorola, but rather by the odm such as Tinno, where it's not even possible to unlock the bootloader without exploits. GrapheneOS will sadly stay unaffordable for many.
  • morserer 6mo ago
    Ideally yes, otherwise any other AOSP-based ROM. There are many, and they support far more devices than Graphene, though implementations of e.g. Google Play services is more hacky. The most well-known: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/
• bitpush 6mo ago
  Isnt the title a bit dramatic? I remember reading you can still install apps but you just need to click a few buttons.
  • benoau 6mo ago
    This isn't referring to the efforts Google has gone to try to thwart sideloading. It is another requirement of Google's, where all developers must be registered to them and apps must be signed by them and anything that isn't will be blocked.
  • jjgreen 6mo ago
    From TFA: Delve into System Settings, find Developer Options Tap the build number seven times to enable Developer Mode Dismiss scare screens about coercion Enter your PIN Restart the device Wait 24 hours Come back, dismiss more scare screens Pick "allow temporarily" (7 days) or "allow indefinitely" Confirm, again, that you understand "the risks" Nine steps. A mandatory 24-hour cooling-off period. For installing software on a device you own.
    • 0x3f 6mo ago
      Sounds a bit like trying to transfer my own money to myself at the bank. I.e. it seems designed to prevent old people getting scammed.
      • hungryhobbit 6mo ago
        That's exactly what this is: Google is trying to prevent tech illiterate users from installing malware. (Or at least, that's their take on this. You can choose to read between the lines, or not, as to whether they have other motivations also.)
        • raverbashing 6mo ago
          Of course they have other motivations But for 1 person wanting to run their own software there are hundreds of people with the potential to install malware/crapware/etc
• zb3 6mo ago
  Yes, but not because of those changes in the GMS stock OS, but because the ability to unlock the bootloader (and install the OS you can actually control) is being increasingly limited. Stock GMS Android was never yours, you only had access to basic permissions, privileged/signature permissions were only accessible to Google/vendors anyway.
• drnick1 6mo ago
  I don't care, I run Graphene, and my phone is definitely mine. Most Android apps just work, and the ones that don't are the kind of malware I am happy to do without.
  • chneu 6mo ago
    I have a pixel 10 pro and have tried no less than 5 times to get my apps to work on graphene, no luck. I'm no slouch either, I've developed for android for almost a decade. I'm not disagreeing with ya, just adding a comment so folks are aware that the "Graphene just works" crowd is sometimes a bit hyperbolic.
    • akho 6mo ago
      What apps? (idle interest; I use Graphene, but few apps, and everything worked so far)
    • Sayrus 6mo ago
      I've been using it for a bit over a year. Installed in a few minutes thanks to WebUSB. A bit of research needed to set the right permissions on Google Play Services. After that? I only had one application fail due to Graphene's memory allocator. No weird bugs, no need to restart like some siblings are commenting. As close to the "Graphene just works" as it could be. However, I'm not heavy into Google's ecosystem. Google Pay will not work but I'm not a user, some Google features won't tell you why they don't work but I'm not using them either (Quick Share for instance), none of my apps require the highest Play Integrity level. Maybe the person who say this are a specific type of person where use-cases don't overlap with what breaks on Graphene.
      • estebank 6mo ago
        The interaction of secondary users with RCS is borked to all hell. It just plain doesn't work. Firefox + stock keyboard stopped properly working three days ago, it's back to normal now. No idea what that was about. Restarting was the only way I found to get things working again during that period. While on the stock Android keyboard, it is clear that the Google one is much better at correcting my taps than the stock one. My typo count has gone up significantly. Every several weeks the mobile connectivity stops working and nothing short of a restart will get it working again. This might be a bad interaction of the very weird way Google Fi works with a secondary user account. I've encountered one case of the phone shutting itself off to install an update overnight and not turning on, making me miss my morning alarm. In the US, there's no way to side step the lack of tap to pay. Getting apps to work with Android Auto requires some finessing. These are the things I've encountered in the last 2 months of using Graphene. Aside from all of that, I really like everything else about the OS. As it stands, it does lacks polish when straying outside of the common path. Not using a secondary account, nor Google Fi on an eSIM, and using the stock browser would likely improve my experience significantly. I haven't encountered an app that wouldn't work yet (but have installed play services as I do want to use Android Auto). I would still recommend Grapheme for normal-ish users, as long as you don't go "paranoid mode" with secondary accounts and skipping play services or don't want to use the phone for tons of things beyond phone calls and web browsing. The base experience is that much calmer than stock Android on Pixel.
• OgsyedIE 6mo ago
  [flagged]
• Xunjin 6mo ago
  Let me play out a scenario, imagine to use a Desktop Hardware like a complete built rig, you would need a specific OS like Windows 11 and you could not run Linux on it, just because it's a vendor lock-in. Why is this acceptable for phones but would not for the case above? I know a lot of people don't care, and that's ok, but we should root for an open choice for the users.
  • Kenji 6mo ago
    [dead]
  • 59percentmore 6mo ago
    From the state's perspective, probably along the same lines as why long guns are allowed with permit in many countries where handguns are banned.
    • fainpul 6mo ago
      Because you can conceiled carry a smartphone? Please explain.
      • 59percentmore 6mo ago
        Yes? Modern portable computing enables counter-surveillance of police, better communication and knowledge access for dissidents, and interface with institutional computer systems for any number of ends. The George Floyd protests don't happen if the bystanders didn't have smartphones, or if protestors had to carry around an Alienware tower; the Snowden leaks don't happen at the magnitude they did without memory miniaturization. There are international examples, too, and commensurate crackdowns on computing freedom (particularly in Hong Kong). You've got a supercomputer and a library and a set of video production equipment in your pocket, among other things. The capabilities of such a device are fundamentally different from something that's tethered to a desk or that's conspicuous when out-and-about. The idea of it being open and untrackable is exciting for some and terrifying for others.
  • hightrix 6mo ago
• devinprater 6mo ago
  Ugh such overreaction. ADB is still a thing. Apple doesn't even have an official command like tool where you can just push an IPA to your phone. Goodness.
  • whatsakandr 6mo ago
    I could still push an app to my phone via adb after this nonsense gets implemented?
    • catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
      Google is altering the deal. Pray Google does not alter it any further.
  • notrealyme123 6mo ago
    For how long will ADB work? Obviously Google doesn't want user to install apps outside of their control
    • selectively 6mo ago
      Google doesn't want millions of people to have every cent of their money stolen. This measure is about making it harder to pull off a specific type of scam that is plaguing South East Asia. No conspiracy. For actual information on the purpose of this change rather than conspiracies, I refer you to https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-developer-verification.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-de... Since the victims of these scams do not typically own a traditional computer/cannot be pressured to get to one quickly, ADB will remain a thing.
      • johntash 6mo ago
        I sorta get that reasoning, but is a 24 hour cooldown really going to stop scammers? They're already used to multi-day scams, so wouldn't they just say they'll call back in a day to finish the process?
• NDlurker 6mo ago
  >Android's openness was never just a feature. It was the promise that distinguished it from iPhone. Millions chose Android for exactly that reason. Google is now revoking that promise unilaterally, on devices already in people's pockets, because they've decided they have enough market dominance and regulatory capture to get away with it. This is why I've stuck with Android for the past 15 years.
  • tjpnz 6mo ago
    There's no point anymore.
    • gdulli 6mo ago
      There is still a point to making a choice. Inconvenient sideloading is still better than no sideloading. In principle I could never reward Apple with my business for having originated and normalized this. And pragmatically, I'd like to hold on for as long as I can to the next set of rights that Apple will take away five years before Google does.
      • tombert 6mo ago
        You have been able to sideload on iOS for years; I first did it in 2021 but I think it was earlier than that. You just needed to create a server on a Mac and you could easily load apps on, all without any kind of special jailbreak. When Delta got released on the App Store, that was cool and all, but I wasn't as impressed as others because I had already been playing emulators on my iPhone for years. Was it convenient? No, of course not, but it's been an option for quite awhile; to me the biggest advantage for Android was the fact that it was relatively easy to sideload apps. To be clear, I don't like that Google is doing this, and I think arguing that it's for security is a half-truth at best. I could make my phone 100% "secure" by pounding a nail through the NAND chip; no one is getting into my phone after that. With the advent of vibe coding, a part of me wonders how hard it would be to hack together my own phone OS with a Raspberry Pi or something and a USB SIM card reader. Realistically probably too much work for me, but a man can dream.
      • 6mo ago
• ChrisArchitect 6mo ago
  Some more discussions: 2 weeks ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47778274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47778274 February https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47139765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47139765 October https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45742488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45742488
• xnx 6mo ago
  Better to share how to install apps and alternative app stores instead of fearmongering around very reasonable security measures.
• vrganj 6mo ago
  This feels like something where the EU Commission should step in. This is directly counter to the Digital Markets Act, it's Google abusing its gatekeeper position.
  • sunaookami 6mo ago
    It's not because you can still install apps outside the Play Store. The EU commission buys these "safety" arguments (also worked for Apple, they don't care that you still can't install IPAs) and the DMA is made for businesses, not for end-users. I once wrote them about the Chrome Web Store monopoly but they insist that everything is fine because businesses aren't impacted. They are of course also interested in centralized censorship because they can order Google to block apps they don't like.
    • vrganj 6mo ago
      It feels like you can draw a pretty clear comparison to the Google Shopping case: https://www.stibbe.com/publications-and-insights/google-shopping-self-preferencing-can-be-abusive https://www.stibbe.com/publications-and-insights/google-shop... It's not enough to provide some crappier way for competition. Just using your dominance to influence the market at all is already monopoly abuse. And of course, businesses are affected. App developers are frequently businesses.
      • lucb1e 6mo ago
        Wouldn't they have fined Apple long ago, if what Google is doing here (a small step less bad than what Apple does) were illegal?
  • zoobab 6mo ago
    They replied to me they did not see any legal problem with notarization. We need a DMA 2.0 which address the oligopoly of dominant Operating Systems, including the freedom to install alternative OSes (no more signed bootloaders, proper hardware documentation, etc...).
• mmooss 6mo ago
  There is a negative network effect: The opt-out is so complex and time-consuming that it will deter almost all users (even if some on HN say they will do it). With so few users, many fewer developers will release apps that don't comply with Google's requirements. Then the value of opting out will decline significantly, which will reduce the number of people doing it, which will reduce the number of apps released ... How do corporate users distribute custom apps on iPhones? Must they distribute them via Apple's store or is there some corporate mode, maybe involving X.509 certs and device management, that enables large-scale professional users to sideload?
  • kahrl 6mo ago
    ZERO. ZERO developers who don’t comply will make a living selling applications and services to the general public.
    • selectively 6mo ago
      This is correct. The people who will refuse to pay $25 and sign their stuff are people with a political objective, not businesses.
      • lucb1e 6mo ago
        It's not about paying Google. People can buy gift cards with cash and do that; that's not the problem, especially not for commercial use. It's everything else that they're imposing or could impose on a whim and whose device it is they're putting restrictions on.
        • selectively 6mo ago
          Google will not accept prepaid cards for verification. Google's identity requirements serve basic security needs and are fine.
          • lucb1e 6mo ago
• TGower 6mo ago
  This is a wild misrepresentation of the situation. Saying there is no opt-out is just false, they even provide the information on how users can opt-out. The "mandatory 24 hour cooling-off period" is also misleading, it's easy to bypass the cooling-off period with ADB.
  • striking 6mo ago
    And I kind of buy the intent behind the cooling-off period anyway. IIRC it's to prevent people from being pressured into installing apps by scammers that could then take their phones hostage
    • selectively 6mo ago
      Yes. That attack is a very real attack. The attacker gets access to the victim's phone and sideloads additional apps that appear to be the victim's legitimate banking application. The victim logs into it and sees a fake balance (as the app is fake). Pressure and other social engineering tactics are invoked and the scammer walks away with all of the victim's money.
    • xigoi 6mo ago
      As if there are no scam apps on Google Play.
  • kodablah 6mo ago
    > Saying there is no opt-out is just false I can't see where one can opt-out of this new behavior and into the existing behavior, only a description of the new behavior's bypass (which is not the same thing at all) > easy to bypass the cooling-off period with ADB I don't think this is a reasonable use of the term "easy". I should be able to give my non-technical friend an apk and they can use it right then, with the one "are you very sure" screen.
    • selectively 6mo ago
      The way you give your non-technical friends an APK and they just install it is by you signing it.
• buzzwords 6mo ago
  I imagine most of us here will look elsewhere when we next upgrade. But are those numbers large enough to form a viable alternative?
  • ge96 6mo ago
    I'm doubtful, I for a bit bought a lot of the Pine64 devices thinking about this eg. not just Android/iOS... but the lack of feature parity eg. missing drivers, lack of apps, old hardware. Unless people are paid to do it vs. volunteer
    • cogman10 6mo ago
      That's the depressing part. I keep looking for something I could potential run the likes of kde mobile and maybe waydroid on, but there's really just nobody doing this. You are basically locked into a vendor kernel if it's even available.
      • kuhsaft 6mo ago
        People forget how much the mobile hardware industry relies on non-free infrastructure. Infrastructure developed by companies that make the standards. You really can't make a good open-source phone because you, pretty much, have to play by the rules of the companies in these consortiums.
        • fsflover 6mo ago
          Except Librem 5 has been created and is usable by the HN people.
          • handedness 6mo ago
            Does the Librem 5 not rely on any non-free code or infrastructure?
            • 6mo ago
• add-sub-mul-div 6mo ago
  Algorithmically removing words from a headline with confidence that what comes out will be better is the precise intersection of stupid and arrogant that defines the modern tech industry.
• pngwen 6mo ago
  This change has served me well! I have been a Mac OS X users for years who used an android phone. As soon as google announced their impending walled garden status, I went out and bought into the ios eco system. I have really been enjoying my iphone, ipad, and apple watch. You see, the only value that Android really offered me was the ability to run my own code on my own device. Since they are taking that away that just makes it a crappier shadow of the vastly superior apple experience. And, as it turns out, ios is less restrictive than it was 18 years ago when I left them for Android!
  • tossit444 6mo ago
    So you moved into a walled garden in an attempt to escape what's essentially a 3 foot picket fenced garden.
    • randyrand 6mo ago
      If you cant beat them join them
      • rootusrootus 6mo ago
        If you are stuck in a walled garden either way, might at least try to get the benefits of it.
        • catlikesshrimp 6mo ago
          Includes status symbol and ecosystem lock!
          • pocksuppet 6mo ago
            So does Android, but without the status symbol, the high res screen, or the integration with your laptop.
            • estebank 6mo ago
• dethos 6mo ago
  To be sincere, they were never truly ours. A proof of that is they were able to come up with this, and you don't have a way to reject it. What we actually need are (open) alternatives, not to double down on Google's ecosystem and Google-controlled OS. We need to control the device we bought and be able to run whatever we wish on it. Just like we do on PCs.
  • at-fates-hands 6mo ago
    Is it time to bring back the Windows phone? I keed I keed! But unfortunately there really isn't a great alternative. I painfully attempted to use Ubuntu Touch and its always the same thing. The lack of available apps, the lack of app development in general for the platform was pretty eye opening. Add in having it only run on really old devices isn't much help either. Its promising, but a long ways off even from some of the non-standard roms I've used like Evolution X which is a Lineage fork. If this really does cripple a lot of the known custom roms out there without any solid alternatives other than Graphene? It could really be a huge turning point.
    • cestith 6mo ago
      I wouldn’t mind a 64-bit build of Symbian or WebOS on my phone, actually. Or, hell, Plan 9.
    • a_victorp 6mo ago
      We need a Wine-like compatibility layer for android alternatives
      • kzhe 6mo ago
        doesn't waydroid already do this? is that how sailfish does it?
        • seba_dos1 6mo ago
          Yes, I have been able to run Android applications within Waydroid on my phone for years now (as long as they don't require attestation). But that's not how Sailfish does it, they have their own proprietary implementation.
• WesolyKubeczek 6mo ago
  On one hand, having a free for all is very good, especially for developers, and for programmability of our devices as such. Screw iPads. On the other hand, malware which coaxes normies into installing unverified apks, is an undeniable fact of life. It's nice to be pontificating as a power user who has never been phished or whose devices never became botnet zombies in their life. On yet another hand, higher-end malware (made by those who can afford the store fees) is there on the freaking play store and app store, so, I guess, shrug
• larodi 6mo ago
  Phone is yours. Software it runs not.
  • debazel 6mo ago
    A phone is worthless without software.
  • lucb1e 6mo ago
    I realize this is a different discussion, but shouldn't it be? The way that it has been since home computers were a thing, as far as I know at least? I don't think we'd stand where we stand today if Commodore and other hardware vendors had required a license on every piece of software from the get-go (if we pretend that there was a known, exportable, and safe signature scheme back then)
    • warkdarrior 6mo ago
      Should the GPL3 software you download and run also be yours?
      • lucb1e 6mo ago
        Pardon?
• Jackevansevo 6mo ago
  I don't understand, there was all this regulation for force apple to allow alternative app stores, and now google are pulling this move? How is this not the same walled garden approach apple was forced to change?
  • selectively 6mo ago
    [flagged]
  • bakugo 6mo ago
    The regulation has blatant loopholes, as usual. While it did force Apple to allow third party app stores, all apps still have to go through a review process by Apple themselves before they can be installed from any source, and they retain the ability to block any apps they don't approve of. Google is just following in their footsteps. https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110#notarization https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110#notarization
  • spogbiper 6mo ago
    this change makes Android more restricted than it was but still not as restricted as Apple. If anything I'd guess the EU vs Apple situation made Google more confident that they could get away with this change.
  • jech 6mo ago
    Alternate app stores are still allowed. It's just that they are restricted to applications signed by developers who have paid a tithe to Google. Google are obeying the letter of the law, while openly violating its spirit. Perhaps it'll be possible to attack them in court, but it will take years, and by that time they'll have found another trick.
• josefritzishere 6mo ago
  So what you're saying is that I have about 3 months to switch to Graphene? Really though, is this not the very definition of monopolistic behavior? Did they not just lose a lawsuit over this?
  • lucb1e 6mo ago
    How could they, when Apple has been doing this for years? Same anti-anticompetition rules would have to be applied to them and then the indoctrinated fans (like up to ~30% of the population depending on where you live) will overthrow law and order
• randyrand 6mo ago
  Okay, so buy a new phone I guess that is yours?
  • lucb1e 6mo ago
    Sure, and don't get to go on public transport (or pay surcharges for paper tickets, depending on if your country still has that option), don't get to participate when everyone else can add music from their phone at a party, don't get to buy leftover food because the proprietary app doesn't run on there (it kicks me out for fraud detection half the time already), don't get to visit various websites that fingerprint your device and find that it might be a 'bot' (hello Cloudflare proxying about half of high-income countries' Internet), you pay extra for groceries compared to people that get discounts in some app, cannot login to government services, cannot do most things that requires being 13 years or older once this EU age verification app is implemented (no more HN for you!), etc etc. Very great option, welcome back to the soviet computing era It's not optional anymore to own a Google/Apple smartphone in a lot of places. You can play this "just vote with your wallet" game but it's not a winning move
    • fsflover 6mo ago
      It is challenging, but fighting for your freedoms is the only way not to loose them. Sent from my daily driver Librem 5.
• GeoAtreides 6mo ago
  So wait, does this mean that Google will forcefully uninstall the apps I currently have installed?! or disable? will the apps work again once I went through the 24h process?
  • tinaclaussen 6mo ago
    auto uninstall.
    • mattstir 6mo ago
      Is that actually confirmed anywhere? It certainly sounds possible given some of the wording ("At this point, any app installed on a certified device in these regions must be registered by a verified developer.") but it would be nice to get official confirmation.
  • flycatcha 6mo ago
    Their FAQ states that previously installed unverified apps won't be able to install updates which suggests to me that they won't disable or uninstall them. Hopefully someone can confirm. https://developer.android.com/developer-verification/guides/faq https://developer.android.com/developer-verification/guides/...
• eaf7e281 6mo ago
  I think it's time to visit an Apple Store and try out the Apple ecosystem. I haven't used an Apple device in a long time.
  • ncr100 6mo ago
    They are shiny. Many aspects feel more 'human', IMO. If you use ad-blockers, I recommend exploring that use-case with Apple / Safari. It's doable though for me is a bit frustrating. In fact, I urge creating a list of use-cases before heading out to the store, and cranking through those while at the store. Computers/phones are such a deeply entwined component of modern life it could be a long list. Passwords, backups, bluetooth compatibility, connecting mass-storage devices to iPad / iPhone, etc.
• deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
• imoverclocked 6mo ago
  "Tap the build number 7 times" ... "wait 24 hours" Throw a pinch of salt over your left (wait, no ... right) shoulder. Spin around clockwise 3 times. Read the Rosary twice. AHA! So, they are allowing users to keep doing what they want.
  • jagged-chisel 6mo ago
    Start again. But this time, align your left top molar with the lower right canine.
  • YcYc10 6mo ago
    This flow will be managed by google play services, not locally.
• Anonyneko 6mo ago
  I've resigned to the fact that I'll need to use two phones, one with locked down Android/iOS for banking applications and government services (those require strong bank ID around these parts), another with some kind of a Linux or unlocked Android for literally everything else. Oh well, such is life, most people don't care enough about this to pressure Google/Apple/banks/governments into yielding. A big reason why a non-locked-down OS is absolutely vital to me is that sometimes I (reluctantly) have to travel to places where I need to install obscure VPN/proxy services to be able to access international internet. Most services present in app stores have been banned for years now, and the government sometimes even succeeds in making Apple/Google remove the more effective ones from the stores.
  • anonymousiam 6mo ago
    In my informed opinion, anybody who does banking on their phone is taking a big and unnecessary risk. I wish I could say more.
    • Anonyneko 6mo ago
      See, the thing is, here you can't use banking on your computer without having a bespoke authentication app on your phone. There used to be a system of one-time codes sent via paper mail, but even that has been scrapped by now, so using bank ID apps is literally the only option across all of the local banks. In my bank the ID app and the bank app are even different apps, and it's the ID app that's the truly important one to have (and that, of course, hates rooted/modified phones with a passion). The government services also go through these ID apps, although there is a poorly supported alternative that uses USB smart card readers. I have not seen a single person actually use it, probably for a reason, though I'm planning to get one just to have a backup...
      • nikonyrh 6mo ago
        At least in Finland's Nordea bank you can order a physical code calculator, they used to be small enough to keep on your wallet but the new one is the size of an old small phone. It even has a QR scanner. So I just keep it at home.
• jhanschoo 6mo ago
  My position regarding devices is that only 2 out of 3 should be satisfied: 1. Used as a proof of identity (for banks, govt services, etc.) 2. Is distributed to laypeople who have more pressing concerns in their lives than security. 3. Is an open platform where you can download apps arbitrarily from the Internet that can read your data and exfiltrate them to a malicious actor. The mainstream today chooses 1&2. Novelty, underpowered devices choose 2&3. Hobbyists have option 3 (and those who like to live dangerously 1&3) with some inconvenience. You can still run GrapheneOS... and the mainstream apps that expect your device to be a proof of your identity won't work... and I find that quite reasonable.
  • jonathanstrange 6mo ago
    It's a number of false choices. Google has complete control over Android and they could easily implement 1, 2, and 3 if they wanted. It's not as if they couldn't provide the means for certified secure enclave apps in addition to normal ones.
  • unethical_ban 6mo ago
    I take issue with the idea that openness and freedom to install arbitrary software cannot occur without strong safety mechanisms. Android/GrapheneOS/iOS have sandboxing and permissions systems that put most desktop OSes to shame. The base platform can control apps' access to every resource, and an app store can put its own caveats and reminders to users for what kind of access is needed for the functions of a given app.
    • kuhsaft 6mo ago
      Sandboxing and permissions provide a different type of security than application signatures. Sandboxing can limit app capabilities, but it doesn't change the fact that you can accidentally grant a malicious application permissions. Application signatures and developer identification bring a different kind of application security. It provides the security of societal legal systems and legal ramifications for malicious actors. In the end, you still have the choice to trust the "system" or your own judgment.
• dvh 6mo ago
  On my Android phone's home screen I have 23 apps, 11 of them are my own. If Android prevents me from installing my own apps I will switch to something else.
  • 627467 6mo ago
    Unless you move to a linux phone (good luck finding one or daily driving it) your phone options are iPhone. iOS restricts you to install only up to 3 personally signed apps which need to be resigned every 7 days only if you're in the same network of the computer that signs them. Or you live in europe and you can jump through much worse hoops to install AltStores which also break as soon as you travel outside of europe.
    • fsflover 6mo ago
      I daily drive Librem 5, and it's been fine.
  • gib444 6mo ago
    Tell us more about your 11 apps!
    • dvh 6mo ago
      - calendar - spending tracking app - notepad - RSS reader just for my YouTube subscriptions - dumbed down browser that can only show YouTube video and nothing else (no suggestions, no comments) - space sim game - RC boat remote control - micro photo led ring Bluetooth control app - magnetometer control app - RSS reader for news - browser
      • gib444 6mo ago
        That's cool. What made you develop a custom browser, notepad, calendar etc?
        • dvh 6mo ago
• anoncow 6mo ago
  Our phones stopped being ours ever since we accepted phones with locked bootloaders. I hope Android and iOS both disappear. Trading freedom for security has resulted in what we knew would happen.
  • jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
    It is absolutely maddening that I cannot see files on my own phone. And very very very few devices still allow getting around this. Often at a cost of significantly degraded experience, as Magisk plays the cat and mouse game of trying to hide your illegal access privileges to your own devices from your bank or some random app that decide to throw a Play Integrity check in. Tip of the anti-personal computing spear, a complete denial of the user agency. Absolutely wretchedly forsaken.
  • kube-system 6mo ago
    Lockable bootloaders are the best of both worlds.
• ck2 6mo ago
  vaguely curious how this is going to affect Amazon's FireOS which is basically android with their own app store layer FireToolBox has gotten really powerful with workarounds especially with the new Shizuku pseudo-root via adb
• HomeDeLaPot 6mo ago
  I don't see why megacorporations and governments are allowed to control the computer I carry around in my pocket, while I'm not.
  • akomtu 6mo ago
    Because it's their creation.
    • shafoshaf 6mo ago
      I don't know if that is sarcasm, but a chair I buy is mine to do whatever I want with it. Same goes for clothes, a mattress, paint, or any other non-software enabled physical item. Why does having software/hardware make a difference?
      • tkel 6mo ago
        Because capitalists extend control wherever they can to maximize profitability. If you want decisions that corporations make to be aligned with the desires of their users, you should be advocating for software/hardware built by consumer cooperatives.
      • something765478 6mo ago
        Because your clothes and paint do not need security updates, since they do not talk to the internet. Your mattress cannot be made part of a botnet.
        • SauntSolaire 6mo ago
          Tell that to my eightSleep mattress
        • xigoi 6mo ago
          Somehow my computer has not become part of a botnet despite having a free OS.
        • 63stack 6mo ago
• apt-apt-apt-apt 6mo ago
  Does this make Android the same as iOS now, in terms of how locked down it is?
  • 627467 6mo ago
    Can you install different firmware/OS (tweaked and developed by others not sanctioned by apple) on your iPhone? Can you install unlimited unsigned apps on iPhone? If answer is "No", than No, android is still very far from as locked down as iOS
    • wasting_time 6mo ago
      First they came for root privileges, but I didn't say anything because I hardly used it. Then they came for F-Droid, and I didn't say anything because I don't know how to contact them. Then ...
• kube-system 6mo ago
  > Starting September 2026, a silent update, nonconsensually pushed by Google, will block every Android app whose developer hasn't registered with Google, signed their contract, paid up, and handed over government ID. This is false. Google will provide two other flows for app distribution that are different than this. > Every app and every device, worldwide, with no opt-out. Again, false. There is an opt-out called the "advanced flow". https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-developer-verification.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-de...
  • luke-stanley 6mo ago
    But the "opt-out" will not prevent ecosystem effects caused by the default shutdown of convenient app installs due to the policy. Not even for GrapheneOS users. It's a global policy by a body we never voted for. You can't opt-out of that different world by waiting 24-hours, the ecosystem could have permanent effects. This is coming from a company that doesn't even bother to expose a permission to disable Internet access per app. It's there underneath, but they just ... don't expose the choice.
    • kube-system 6mo ago
      Is it really going to have ecosystem effects? Surely the small portion of power-users who are bothering to intentionally sideload apps can click a couple of buttons. Or just load via ADB and avoid the entire thing. The entire point here is to prevent scam actors from using a false sense of urgency to defraud people. That is a serious vulnerability that needs to be addressed somehow, and I think this is a good compromise that doesn't impact people's ability to sideload. I say this as someone who sideloads apps literally every day.
      • Zak 6mo ago
        > The entire point here is to prevent scam actors from using a false sense of urgency to defraud people. That is a serious vulnerability that needs to be addressed somehow Does it, and if it does, does it need to be addressed by an OS vendor creating a mechanism to ban developers for most users? I'm not convinced of the former, and I'm certain the latter is bad. I predict within ten years, we will see this used against something that is not malware.
• 1970-01-01 6mo ago
  The fact that many Android bootloaders are not allowed to be unlocked by users means, by definition, these devices were never yours to begin with. It is not Google taking away your ability to use your sideloaded apps on your device because true, unlimited device freedom was never yours to begin with.
  • lucb1e 6mo ago
    Hence my phone selection spreadsheet having a column for unlockability, making sure I don't forget to check it. I'm so used to root, I'd full-on buy the phone just assuming it's a thing when some vendors indeed block you That this is now rolled out ecosystem-wide by the central controlling party is a significant change from some vendors being assholes
• cosmojg 6mo ago
  This is certainly bad news, but at least an escape hatch exists (the "advanced flow") and it appears to be a one-time pain in the ass. If that changes, I hope GrapheneOS and friends[1] can get Google Pay or some alternative working so I can comfortably jump ship, as I rely pretty heavily on the ability to pay with my phone. [1] https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
• palmotea 6mo ago
  You know, I'm fine with this (just as long as the opt-in is one-time, not for every install). A device maker needs to balance the interests of many different groups, including nontechnical users subject to scams, and it's pretty self-centered to get self-righteously outraged when things get a little harder for power users, when those changes may save the butt of a lot of other people. The only thing that gives me pause is this: > Worse: this flow runs entirely through Google Play Services, not the Android OS. Google can change it, tighten it, or kill it at any time, with no OS update required and no consent needed. And as of today, it hasn't shipped in any beta, preview, or canary build. It exists only as a blog post and some mockups.
  • tsylba 6mo ago
    I find it quite interesting that peoples talking on a website called "hacker news" find it fine that a company selling you an OS make it harder for you to install app not approved by them, notably so when there is enough scare screens as of now to discourage any too gullible peoples to do so. What would we think if Microsoft decided all of a sudden to do something similar with Windows? How there is no outrage about this in that community? Like the boiled crab in the chef's cuisine, we slowly accept the rising temperature around us as totally fine and normal. Somewhat relevant article about the demise of a culture: https://aeon.co/essays/how-yuppies-hacked-the-original-hacker-ethos https://aeon.co/essays/how-yuppies-hacked-the-original-hacke...
    • palmotea 6mo ago
      > I find it quite interesting that peoples talking on a website called "hacker news" find it fine that a company selling you an OS make it harder for you to install app not approved by them I'm trying to get outside the myopic software engineer/geek mindset. > notably so when there is enough scare screens as of now to discourage any too gullible peoples to do so. Apparently the existing screens are not sufficient, and I buy that. I think the cooling down period is a good idea, because otherwise many people will just do as they're told because they don't understand what they're doing and are too trusting. > What would we think if Microsoft decided all of a sudden to do something similar with Windows? How there is no outrage about this in that community? Where is the outrage about nontechnical people getting misled and scammed?
• pjmlp 6mo ago
  Since forever. The fixed phones belonged to the phone company and were only rented under contract. Most prepaid and contract mobile phones were locked to the operator and we even had to pay extra to unblock them. App stores were gated through operators, and required devkits for some of them. Ah, and none of them got updates, if they did, usually required additional software to install them.
• 1vuio0pswjnm7 6mo ago
  The author as well as commenters in this thread are claiming that people choose Android over iOS or vice versa One could argue this is false dichotomy These people are actually choosing a particular form factor with particular specifications that, more or less, only runs corporate mobile OS^1 instead of form factors that run non-corporate OS 1. Or some derivative of one that relies on the corporate distributor and replicates the tethering to a third party, e.g., "phoning home" to the OS distributor, "automatic updates" (remote code execution), etc. There are other form factors of computers that can run non-corporate OS, where "phone home" and RCE code does not exist or, if necessary, any undesired code can be easily removed by concerned users In sum, one could argue that with respect to control, privacy, etc. (a) choosing to use one corporate mobile OS over another is not a meaningful "choice" when compared with (b) choosing to use a non-corporate, open source, "compilable by the user" OS instead of a "locked down" corporate mobile OS This choice can be made on a case-by-case basis depending on what computing problem the user is trying solve. With respect to anyone who seeks to use their "phone" as a general purpose computer to solve every computing problem, one could argue the "choice" of one corporate mobile OS over another is not meaningful with respect to user control, privacy, etc. Instead "tech journalists", "tech blogs" and online commenters prefer to argue over which is the "better" corporate mobile OS. The truth is, with respect to control, privacy, etc., they all suck
  • Ethee 6mo ago
    Right on the nose. And to make that problem worse we've integrated a fair share of our lives into these devices, for which there is only 2 terrible choices. I can't tell you how many friends have expressed to me that they'd love to try GrapheneOS or get out of the mobile ecosystem entirely, but all of them use mobile apps for banking which effectively locks them in. It's basically the devil's bargain because we've added so much ease of use functionality to our day to day lives through these devices. In exchange Google is now showing us it was never ours to begin with.
    • _carbyau_ 6mo ago
      I agree with your post however further info on one point: > but all of them use mobile apps for banking which effectively locks them in Many banking apps work fine with GOS. But given banking and money is such an important part of our lives it is easy to see why people might be hesitant. It doesn't guarantee future compatibility.... but linked below is a GOS [banking app] status list, crowdsourced info by country. https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
• 627467 6mo ago
  The level of panic here feels totally out of proportion. While these restrictions are a sad reminder of where personal computing is headed, the shift toward appliances over computers isn’t a new trend at all. What’s more frustrating is the "your android phone will stop being yours" narrative. Where is that supposed to lead the reader? Moving to iOS to escape restrictions is a total contradiction, as the situation there isn't even comparable. The people who actually care - the F-Droid users and independent developers - are already used to jumping through hurdles and bypassing "install anyway" warnings. They won't be deterred, and new users will learn. Honestly, you have to wonder if the goal of these dramatic campaigns is just to scare ignorant users into the Apple ecosystem or maybe to prop up emerging Linux phones. But has anyone actually tried a mainstream Linux phone that isn't a nightmare to use? Compare that experience to the dozens of Android models that work perfectly with LineageOS or other variants. Those are 100% daily drivers with the power, cameras, and battery life fully working. Instead of helpful criticism, these headlines feel like they’re just herding people away from the only practical "open" hardware we actually have.
• karlzt 6mo ago
  This is the most important part: >> Developers Do not sign up. Don't join the program by signing up for the Android Developer Console and agreeing to their irrevocable Terms and Conditions. Don't verify your identity. Don't play ball. Google's plan only works if developers comply. Don't. Talk other developers and organizations out of signing up. Add the FreeDroidWarn library to your apps to warn users. Run a website? Add the countdown banner.
  • jdthedisciple 6mo ago
    Unfortunately not gonna work. Developers either want to make money or work for someone who wants to make money. In either case they will be forced to.
  • rubymamis 6mo ago
    That's not the solution - developers or businesses are squeezed into signing up anyway to survive/make a profit. The only viable alternative is to create an alternative - Linux phones.
    • palata 6mo ago
      I agree. There isn't even a need to create alternative OSes: they exist. Be it Linux phones or (more realistically for the vast majority of users) AOSP-based OSes like GrapheneOS and LineageOS. The real problem is that: 1. Most manufacturers prevent us from unlocking the bootloader, adding custom signing keys and relocking it. Interestingly the Google Pixels allow that. This should be mandatory. 2. Many apps choose to ban alternative OSes by use of Play Integrity, i.e. checking that the OS is signed by Google. This should be illegal. 3. Bonus: it should be mandatory for manufacturers to make it reasonably easy to support from an alternative OS. That means publishing device trees, for instance. This should be mandatory. I really believe we should fight for that. Then we wouldn't have to care about what Google does on their side.
  • simpaticoder 6mo ago
    This is the part that makes the least sense. It shows a profound lack of empathy. For many devs this is equivalent to saying "Give up your livelihood to show you support this principle, that will likely have little to no effect". This is advice aimed at wealthy hobbyists. What's worse is that it's not even a principled view. If you really don't trust Google, then you shouldn't rely on Google's software no matter what policies they change or promises they make. The problem is actually far more profound, that citizens are now expected to have a closed smartphone from one of the duopolies which government and corporate entities need to trust, which means they cannot allow it to be entirely your device. This is a tacit policy that must be defeated as a policy matter.
• WarcrimeActual 6mo ago
  I love that it's so easy to tell that this was built with Claude.
• lrvick 6mo ago
  If someone can push nonconsensual updates to your device then you never owned it in the first place.
• grigio 6mo ago
  GrapheneOS and PostmarketOS deserve more visibility
  • fsflover 6mo ago
    Also Mobian, PureOS, and many more: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php?title=PinePhone_Software_Releases https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php?title=PinePhone_Software_R...
• johnea 6mo ago
  This is goggle's version of windoze 11 There's never been a better time to switch to a linux phone...
• msarrel 6mo ago
  Thank you for sharing this. It is sad that Google has by now destroyed every reason I wanted to run Android. Bye-bye.
• OtomotO 6mo ago
  Buying a jolla phone now!
• NoImmatureAdHom 6mo ago
  WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY? This is the question this website should be answering. Signing petitions is all well and good, but I want to vote with my wallet. WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY??? One thing I will do in the future is buy a nifty Motorola / GrapheneOS collab phone, but I can't do that yet. So for now: WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY? It is literally amazing to me that people aren't giving this as an option on such social coordination sites. Who is willing and able to sue Google over this? Who is actually doing it? *WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY*
  • bigyabai 6mo ago
    Money won't fix anything here: https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/governments-spying-apple-google-users-through-push-notifications-us-senator-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/governments... The central control is the point.
    • NoImmatureAdHom 6mo ago
      I think this is a failure of imagination :-)
    • fsflover 6mo ago
      How does it affect GNU/Linux phones?
  • fsflover 6mo ago
    > WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY? Good question. Here you go: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
    • Andromxda 6mo ago
      If you want an outdated, insecure, and extremely overpriced phone, sure, go ahead. It's literally 2018 hardware being sold for 800 bucks. 3 GB of RAM? Seriously? The iPhone XS, also from 2018, has 4 GB of RAM, just saying. And regarding the security: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html
• maxrev17 6mo ago
  Mobile ecosystem is crap as a dev, crap as a user.
  • code_biologist 6mo ago
    People don't like the phrase enshittification, but the process Doctrow describes is so accurate (serve the users, then serve business customers at the expense of users, then serve the platform at the expense of users and business customers) it's hard not to see it everywhere. Phone platforms fit the template exactly, sadly.
• tamimio 6mo ago
  Another downside of this, besides what’s mentioned, is people becoming insensitive about security, when they get to blindly do that process to install legitimate apps multiple times, it will be easier to trick them to install malicious ones, so you are not improving security at all.
• pizzly 6mo ago
  If an update could silently block any app from working then your phone was never yours to begin with. Even if they never implement the update, the potential power means they own your phone. We lost control of our hardware a long long time ago.
• ccamrobertson 6mo ago
  I've found that releasing and maintaining production Android apps has become more difficult in the last decade as compared to iOS which (surprisingly) has improved slightly. Google Play removed a perfectly functional NFC utility app we released after a year of no updates (despite the fact that it didn't require any to work on the latest Android version at the time). By contrast, the App Store doesn't care as long as we continue to pay the annual developer fee. We opted to open source the app and let users sideload the app as an alternative; now that will be far more difficult as we are no longer "verified" Google Play developers. Really unfortunate, glad I'm not an Android user myself.
• derelicta 6mo ago
  I predict this same restriction for Windows 12.
• bad_username 6mo ago
  I have tons of apps I installed (mostly from Play Store) since like 2012, and that were grandfathered in through Samsung Switch from phone to phone as I replaced them with one another. A lot of data in them, too. Will they, and the data, just ... disappear?! When exactly do I have to do the 24 hour song and dance to prevent that? All of this sounds too bad to be true, honestly.
• tsoukase 6mo ago
  Vote with everything you have/can. Money, attitude, consumption, political connections. Make these greedy (beep) regret it. Users and developers stop using Play store.
• helterskelter 6mo ago
  I've been planning my move from Google for a while but this is getting me to pull the trigger. GrapheneOS, Kagi and Fastmail it is. I'll keep the gmail account open for mail forwarding but that's about it.
• heisig 6mo ago
  Really good timing for Jolla to produce a new phone :) I still have fond memories of my 2013 Jolla, and I'm hoping that the 2026 Jolla will be just as lovingly crafted. Most importantly, Jolla is a company that seems to care about me, the user, whereas Apple and Google constantly treat me like a peasant that needs to be governed.
• AussieWog93 6mo ago
  My phone has not been "mine" for a decade and a half now, and the ability to install a self signed.apk has very little to do with this.
• Animats 6mo ago
  Can't even run F-Droid any more? That's the only source of apps I use.
  • mattstir 6mo ago
    You can if you jump through Google's dubious hoops to enable "advanced mode" as described here: https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-developer-verification.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/03/android-de... The steps are rather insulting and arbitrary, but at least there's some way out.
• pdonis 6mo ago
  Is anyone considering a fork of Android that would not have this, um, "feature"?
  • blueg3 6mo ago
    This feature only exists for phones with Google Play Services, so yes.
    • pdonis 6mo ago
      Which is pretty much every Android phone. Again, is there any version of Android that doesn't have that service automatically installed and running?
• WarmWash 6mo ago
  This keeps coming up and I just want to point out that it's the result of one judge using the book rather than their brain to make a ruling. Google asked (the appeals judge) why Apple was not a monopoly with the App store. The judge told Google it was because they cannot be anti-competitive if they have no competitors. Well, here we are.
• hammock 6mo ago
  My Starlink receiver already isn’t mine. It’s locked to one account. I can’t give it to someone else to use without contacting the company and registering it. I can’t donate it to goodwill and have someone else use it.
• EGreg 6mo ago
  So... just like the App Store on iOS?
• hemc4 6mo ago
  This is reason I don't use ios. I will be happy to use a new OS forked from android at this point of time. Any suggestions? I don't care where it originates from.
  • benjaminoakes 6mo ago
    GrapheneOS, /e/OS, LineageOS Ideally buy a phone with it pre-installed
  • hellcow 6mo ago
    https://furilabs.com/ https://furilabs.com/ It runs a modified Debian and can run Android apps in containers. To my knowledge this is the closest we come to "open-source phone that actually works as a phone" today.
• classified 6mo ago
  I have to admit, in ancient times when the googleists could point schadenfreude at the appleists and brag about how open Android was compared to iOS, I was a bit envious. Now that terminal enshittification has infected Android too, I'm not feeling schadenfreude in turn. It's a sad day all around.
• franczesko 6mo ago
  It will end up badly for them in EU
• AkiraHsieh 6mo ago
  Android's original openness did attract users, but the flood of poorly-made apps also created real fraud and crime risks. Those of us on HN have high security standards, but for older users, that old policy created genuine security vulnerabilities. Just observing my own family members.
  • willi59549879 6mo ago
    But how does this help? I guess most of the apps used for fraud were installed through the play store anyway
    • AkiraHsieh 6mo ago
      That's not accurate. Most fraud apps targeting elderly users are distributed via APK links in phishing messages, not through Play Store. They impersonate banks, government apps, etc. The ability to sideload APKs is exactly what makes these attacks possible on Android but not on iOS.
• danpalmer 6mo ago
  > "dismiss more scare screens" This whole website is a scare screen. There's a lot that is not being said on this page, such as the advantages of the new system, and the motivations of the authors of this site. There's a reasonable discussion to be had about trade-offs here, but this is entirely one sided, in somewhat bad faith in my personal opinion.
  • realusername 6mo ago
    Sometimes reality is one sided, I personally see zero advantage to the new system. And I don't see how this change adresses the number one source of scams, the Play Store.
    • danpalmer 6mo ago
      Is the Play Store the number one source of scams though? It might be in absolute terms, but Google has said malware off Play is 50x higher, and clearly Google does a huge amount of work to keep scams off Play. It seems logical to have a multi-faceted approach and try to reduce malware distribution elsewhere.
      • realusername 6mo ago
        When I search for ChatGPT right now on the Play Store, the first result on my phone is a counterfeit app with a fake logo, I don't think even basic diligence has been done on the play store, it's the far west. As for the apk, of course not many people distribute legitimately this way ... because it's already too complicated! Even Fortnite couldn't make it work, so if they cannot, how can your average developer do it? If you want more legitimate apks, the solution is to remove friction and make them easier to install. Google has been acting in two steps here: - first make apks too complicated for legitimate developers - then claim that no legitimate developer use them...
      • 63stack 6mo ago
        It's fair to question whether the play store is the number one source of scams, but you should also question whether google actually does enough to keep scams off of Play, or is that just a pretense. If I search for "DeepL" the first hit on the play store is "Preply" whatever that is, only the second one is actually DeepL.
• ulrikrasmussen 6mo ago
  Someone here on HN used the term "cloud terminal" for modern electronic devices, and I think that is a very fitting name for phones and tablets. They are definitely not computers because they do not actually give the user access to general purpose computing in the sense that the users can control exactly what computations the device is going to execute. They are just terminals whose production costs we cover but which are actually owned by the cloud providers. Also: The internet is slowly turning into a handful of clouds, and it is only a matter of time before you cannot meaningfully host anything by yourself outside of these clouds because your cloud terminal will refuse to talk to it.
  • janalsncm 6mo ago
    Speaking as someone who has built local-only apps (partially because I don’t want the hassle of maintaining a server): There are plenty of useful apps that run locally on a phone. You can even run a whole LLM on your phone. The shiniest and most popular apps are cloud terminals but the iPhone is actually a pretty darn powerful device.
    • ulrikrasmussen 6mo ago
      Plenty of useful apps != general purpose computing capabilities. You are not allowed to run computations that have not been approved by Apple if you are using an iPhone. Yes, the hardware is powerful, but it is cryptographically locked down. It is physically local, but the control of the hardware is entirely non-local and 100% owned by Apple.
      • milkshakes 6mo ago
        unless you're using an API that requires an entitlement, you can still get an apple developer account and sign whatever code you want and run it on your devices.
        • BiteCode_dev 6mo ago
          So if they don't give you an apple dev account, or close yours, you can't. Case in point.
• MrDisposable 6mo ago
  Russian here, a former Android and iPhone user. I had to switch to Graphene OS in full paranoid more due to our worsening situation regarding VPNs and phone searches. After about a month of using Graphene OS, I'm not looking back – it's great. I'm not recommending it as a 100% solution for everyone, but it's definitely a very solid practical step towards keeping the phone yours: 1. Your phone will be able to operate as a basic phone (calls, SMS, web, photos / videos, location, Bluetooth, eSIM) without a Google account. 2. You will always be able to install an APK. This helps you install apps that are banned from Google Play Store in your country. 3. There's a duress PIN that lets you wipe the phone completely from any 'Enter PIN' screen. (I tried it, it's a bit messy, but it does wipe the phone and in the end you return to a blank Graphene OS installation – no need to reinstall.) 4. There's a setting that lets you disable any USB port functionality other than charging. 5. The permission system is amazing. If you are forced to install a state-mandated spy app (like the Max messenger in Russia), you can put it into a "permission jail" where the app assumes that it has access to the requested data but actually receives what you explicitly give it. For example, you can select individual photos and contacts to make available to the app – while the app will think that it has access to all contacts and photos. Bonus: the new Internet permission, which lets apps think that they are connected to the Internet while they are actually blocked from it. 6. You can have a separate profile for data and apps you don't want to expose. (There's also a Private Space for that, it's very convenient but it exposes installed apps via app search from the main space.) 7. There's an End Session function for a logged-in profile that stops it from running, wipes it from memory, and puts the data at rest. 8. You can have a separate VPN in each profile. This should help against situations where your local equivalent of Roskomnadzor sniffs out your VPN connection settings via state-mandated changes in apps operating in your jurisdiction, and bans that particular VPN later. Just make sure you install all spy apps under a profile with a disposable VPN that you aren't afraid to lose. 9. Each profile (and the Private Space too, because technically it is a special kind of Profile) can have a separate Google account. For example, one profile can have a Russian Google account (for banking and state apps), while another profile can have an Armeninan Google account (for things that are banned in Russia, like Spotify and Kindle.) However, to arrange this, you have to physically be in the desired country – Google doesn't let you change the account country without being there. To sum up – if you are concerned about this situation, buy Pixel 10 (excellent hardware btw.), install Graphene OS (very easy, their web installer is great), and try using it for a while.
• janalsncm 6mo ago
  Well, that would be a very polite way for a mugger to describe his plan. In all seriousness, Apple doesn’t even make you submit an ID to publish on the App Store.
• iugtmkbdfil834 6mo ago
  It is going to sound odd, but.. why do we need a phone number at all ( I know why it is so entrenched -- I am asking about need )? Because, if phone number is not needed, we can move to bypass the annoying effective duopoly.
  • duskdozer 6mo ago
    Phone numbers so far have been one of the most effective unique identifiers that companies can convince people to give them
• red_admiral 6mo ago
  > People chose Android because it was different. Source? The android/iOS market shares vary a lot by country, with android dominating worldwide. North America is an exception with iOS in front (I think even more so in Canada). Maybe people _in the US_ choose android because it's different? In Germany for example the android market share vs iOS is something like 60:40. India, something like 90:10. Reasonable explanation: there's many more different price and feature ranges with android. I doubt the average Indian or German would say they bought an android "because it's more open", especially if they're in the great majority of people who don't work in tech.
• nairboon 6mo ago
  Sounds like 2027 will be the year of the Linux phone. Thanks for the support Google.
• DuncanCoffee 6mo ago
  Cannot wait for linux phones to be ready... When I switch my current phone I'll check out how the Jolla status is
• clutter55561 6mo ago
  I think of my iPhone as a phone plus a mobile browser plus a biometric device. It has a lot of memory and a lot of compute power but that is just because all the crap sites and apps out there, unnecessary animations, etc. One could also claim that a phone is a mobile gaming device, although that is not my thing. Biometrics is the feature that confers all the power to Apple and Google. All sorts of shady things can be done in the name of security and privacy. The internet would be a much better place if browsing and biometrics were done in different devices.
• romuloalves 6mo ago
  This should be #1 in HN
• ianberdin 6mo ago
  Well, what about PlayStation, etc? Yes it has a PC inside. But, you own it with exceptions. A terminal for games. Similar to phones now. Some advantages and disadvantages here. Anyway, they Own it, they Built it and they have Their rules.
• G_o_D 6mo ago
  Will someone clarify my doubt ? The lineancy of allowing sideloading by means of developer options in settings that requires one time wait of 48hr. Will that be available to all android os or only newer. I was using android 10 on samsung model that already hit end of support by brand years ago. So it update is in developer options and its os level would'nt that require ota update but with end of support for system updates from samsung itself how it will be pushed
• rubymamis 6mo ago
  We'd have to make Linux on mobile a viable option.
• lordfrito 6mo ago
  From my point of view I don't see anything wrong with knowing a little bit more about the person behind the app I'm trusting to do my personal compute on my personal device. Personally I always think twice when I download apps from company's whose names I don't recognize. Same with PCs... do you really want to run that *.exe you downloaded from that cool site you found? Changes like this will help keep developers honest and accountable. Yeah yeah bad apples will still find ways to screw us. If you want to publish an app to a global scale ecosystem, is it really too much to ask to give some ID?
  • Kelteseth 6mo ago
    It's the no way to op out from this that is bad.
  • yosamino 6mo ago
    This isn't the issue that's at stake here though: The question is: > Who is making the decision which code is allowed to run on my device? The status quo is already that can make this decision yourself. There are other people who make different decisions from you. The proposed change is trying to take this decision away from you and making google the arbiter of which code is allowed to run. The core of this issue is the opposite of "publishing an app to a global scale ecosystem" - I want to publish an app that is useful for me and a very small circle of people, that is what's being taken away.
  • 4ndrewl 6mo ago
    Sounds like a classic astroturfer. Did you read tfa? Perhaps engage with some of those arguments already made on that page eg wrt ID.
  • StrLght 6mo ago
    > Same with PCs... do you really want to run that *.exe you downloaded from that cool site you found? Yes, I am fully capable of making decisions about what software to run on my personal hardware on my own, thanks. I don't need Apple or Google or Microsoft to make this decision for me. They're trying to fix social engineering. It's simply not possible.
• eleveriven 6mo ago
  [dead]
• wlindley 6mo ago
  The real mystery is why anyone remotely aware of the Free Software movement would have ever been duped into advocating for handheld computers so hostile to their own goals.
• Humorist2290 6mo ago
  It's incredible that on the same device we can write pithy little comments, we can also play games, listen to music, read countless books, basically access the whole of the internet, and also empty out bank accounts. I'd wager most of those can be done on many people's devices in under a minute, with little more safeguard than a fingerprint. To me this isn't some security flaw in android that allows users to do something. It's a fundamental flaw in having most of the world's population forced into using a device whose software, firmware, and hardware are gate kept by a handful of monopolistic companies. They want all your eggs in one basket, and they'll hold the basket for you. For many people these things mediate a person's interaction with the world. That's not some super fantastic responsibility on Google's shoulders, but a humanist catastrophe caused in part by (and of course handsomely profitable for) Google.
• wao0uuno 6mo ago
  Jokes on them, I have an iPhone. My phone was never truly mine.
• palata 6mo ago
  Respectfully, I think this is the wrong fight. And I fear it may be counter-productive, because all the effort put into asking Google to make it a little less painful to install an unverified app is not put into the real fight. IMHO, it should be fine for Google or Apple to do whatever they want with their OS. What should be forbidden is to prevent people from installing an alternative OS on their hardware. But this is not all Google's doing there: all the Android manufacturers are actively preventing users from doing it. When I buy an Android phone, I should be able to unlock the bootloader, add custom signing keys, install whatever OS I choose, and relock the bootloader. Interestingly, currently this is possible on Google Pixels, but not on most other Android devices. When I use an Android phone, a company building an app should not be allowed to ban my OS "because it is not the Google OS". That is, using Play Integrity or whatever they do to ban alternative OSes should be forbidden. But again, this is not entirely Google's fault: the companies choose to add those checks in their ** app. And it is a bigger problem there, because while I can install an alternative OS on my Android device (e.g. GrapheneOS or LineageOS), I can NOT install an alternative client for e.g. my bank. Back to side-loading: really it's mostly a problem for F-Droid on Stock Android, as far as I can see. And really, people who care about using F-Droid would probably be happy to use an alternative OS, if it was reasonably possible. We should fight for that.
  • storus 6mo ago
    ARM doesn't have any initialization/boot standard enforced on phone manufacturers so everyone is doing their own and never upstreams anything. It's a general ARM problem. PC with some lucky coincidence avoided that fate and we got used to it. RISC-V is in even worse shape than ARM as the fragmentation is even at the CPU instruction level. Both ARM and RISC-V have some discussions/proposed standards but nothing enforced anywhere.
    • palata 6mo ago
      Interesting insights, thanks! If I may ask: is that a reason to prevent me from unlocking, adding custom keys and relocking the bootloader? It feels like you are talking about the implementation details below that. I don't really mind if it is different, I just want a common API, and it seems like whatever is done on the Pixel phones is totally fine. Why not make that mandatory for all manufacturers?
• trashb 6mo ago
  > this flow runs entirely through Google Play Services, not the Android OS. Google can change it, tighten it, or kill it at any time, with no OS update required and no consent needed. I am curious: Can you opt-out with the device not connected to the network? From the statement in the article it seems that may not be possible?
• toss1 6mo ago
  So much for vibe-coding apps for personal or niche use (e.g., club/sport/charity, etc.). Or will Google carve out an exception for Gemini/Antigravity/CoLab/AI Studio/Whatever? At least a usable exception, but smells a lot like antitrust lock-in if you prefer Claude/ChatGPT/DeepSeek/Whatever.
  • palata 6mo ago
    > So much for vibe-coding apps for personal or niche use You will still be able to do that...
    • toss1 6mo ago
      The article has a whole page about how, while it is still technically possible, it is a massively messy, deliberately intimidating, 9-step process that takes 24 hours. That looks to me like an entirely unusable and unacceptable situation if you want to just vibe-code up a little app to track your bike club rides or something. The 15 minute cycle of: Looks good -» save-» install -» start debugging, oops, I've got to fix that -» repeat Becomes a 25-hour cycle involving: Looks good -» save-» do five steps -» reboot -» wait 24 hours -» 3 more confirmation steps -» install -» start debugging, oops, I've got to fix that -» repeat And then, now that you're determined and spend all week working through a few refinement cycles and have the app you want, you can just give it to everyone at the meetup, THEY all need to get it, do the nonsense, wait 24 hours, do more nonsense, and then finally your bike group can track their rides. You seriously think that is acceptable? Being able to technically do something is a very different thing than being able to practically do something.
      • palata 6mo ago
        > Becomes a 25-hour cycle involving It's not a cycle. You do it once. One time you wait 24h, and that's it.
        • toss1 6mo ago
          Yup, for your first version. Now, you run it for a while, realize you need to make changes, make those changes and now have a v1.01 to use. Do you know it doesn't require a new install? It likely does, since you are not using the Google Play update mechanism. And even if they do "allow" automatic updates of the same app without the delay, you really find this delay acceptable? I'd be ok with a free self-certification of your own app, but forcing a 24hr delay, nope This is way worse than "you're holding it wrong" — this is bad functionality by intentional design
• NoSalt 6mo ago
  > "Google is now rewriting that deal, retroactively" Similar to how they dropped their "Don't be evil." motto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil
• alexious-sh 6mo ago
  Well, it's never been yours, unfortunately. Every Android device with Google services is just a terminal with remotely controlled set of features, Google has lend to your phone manufacturer (not even to you!), and could shut down any time.
• alok-g 6mo ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47937256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47937256 <-- This mean that apps that have already been installed prior to Sept 2026 may continue to work for a while but will stop getting updates. Does the new 24-hour process mean the apps will need to be uninstalled and reinstalled? That would mean the user's existing data in the could be lost in the process.
• alok-g 6mo ago
  Since Google is planning to apply this retroactively, people should be allowed to return their phones for a refund. Also, could someone use a warranty claim to ask them to replace with a device that does not have this issue?
• SandeepJawahar 6mo ago
  [dead]
• getpokedagain 6mo ago
  I don't get it. Just ten to twelve years ago we did just fine without mobile banking apps. Just go to the bank. I've been using graphene with no g shite for a year and have zero issue paying bills on my laptop. If my bank starts requiring two factor from an app to pay in a browser I'll switch banks or just cost them money by paying in person.
• mohamedabdallah 6mo ago
  [flagged]
• GeorgeOldfield 6mo ago
  so we are losing the only point of Android -- sideloading apps -- now it will be literally worse at everything compared to iOS :(