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Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI
https://littletech.org/ https://littletech.org/
https://static.politico.com/4a/bf/9c4021d8404386b0a311dcccf0e5/lta-open-weight-ai-letter-7-22-26.pdf https://static.politico.com/4a/bf/9c4021d8404386b0a311dcccf0...
- SubiculumCode 3mo agoNot in Trump's power.
- b112 3mo agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. Instead, put asterisks* around it and it will get italicized. More formatting info here.*
- SubiculumCode 3mo agofixed.
- b112 3mo agoI vouched, not sure it will help.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- functionmouse 3mo agohe could order possession of it treason and punishable similarly to other illegal numbers.
- bakies 3mo agono he can't, he doesnt make laws
- tensegrist 3mo agoexecutive orders?
- AnimalMuppet 3mo agoYes, he can do executive orders. The courts still get to judge whether they are legal, though... some months/years later. For the more egregious ones, there are temporary restraining orders... days/weeks/months later. So, yes, he can do that, and yes, he can be overruled on them, and yes, that happens after some damage has already been done.
- bakies 3mo agoThe executive can't enforce laws that don't exist
- thewebguyd 3mo agoA president cannot (legally) use an EO to create new laws that bind private citizens or businesses. EOs can only be issued to federal agencies, and only Federal Agencies & Employees (and federal contractors) are bound by direct compliance of an EO. Now that Chevron is no more, EOs are even weaker than they used to be because the regulatory agencies no longer have teeth. Premature compliance != legally required compliance. Anyone complying early to an EO when they don't have to is an idiot.
- amanaplanacanal 3mo agoLegality doesn't seem to have much effect, in his case.
- logicchains 3mo agoIf he can ban Chinese TikTok for alleged national security reasons, I'm sure he can also similarly ban Chinese AI.
- hnfong 3mo agoThat said, it's harder to ban a terabyte of floating point numbers under a MIT license.
- kennywinker 3mo agoUnder what authority could he block access?
- Catloafdev 3mo agoThe same authority he used to enact tariffs and a war.
- runtime_terror 3mo agoSo, illegally, got it
- gwerbin 3mo agoIt has the tacit consent of Congress, so it's mostly only illegal in the way it's carried out. Congress could make most of it legal right now, but they don't want to put their names on it. Some of it would probably be unconstitutional for Congress to authorize (ironically via the nondelegation clause which is now being repurposed to justify a thoroughly unconstituational unitary executive arrangement), but much of it would not be, so it's de jure illegal but de facto legal.
- watwut 3mo agoYou just described multiple different ways of being "illegal".
- nickthegreek 3mo agoIf you were to keep using a chinese model after said ban, you would need to be charged with a crime and be found guilty in a court of law for this to be true. What it would do is have an instant chilling effect across Corporate America, which is the goal.
- margalabargala 3mo agoAt a certain level legality is enforcement. If the enforcers of the rules decline to enforce them, you're better off acknowledging what is and dealing with it.
- misiti3780 3mo agohe cant shut them off anyways, anyone can just VPN to europe and download them
- andai 3mo agoThe ducks at the park are free, you can just take one home with you.
- minimaltom 3mo agoI luv this sentence but have no idea what it means lol. Do you have many ducks at home?
- therealdrag0 3mo agoI think it means, just because something is accessible doesn’t mean it’s legal, permitted, or okay.
- addandsubtract 3mo agoThe ones at home land on a dinner plate.
- thewebguyd 3mo agoIndividuals can. The US GOV can make it so legally risky for US based corporations to host, download, or integrate with foreign open weight models that they become effectively illegal for commercial use. Any sort of sanctions or ICTS regulations, and you'll see them all rapidly disappear from AWS, Azure, GCP, HuggingFace, GitHub, etc.
- lelanthran 3mo ago> The US GOV can make it so legally risky for US based corporations to host, download, or integrate with foreign open weight models that they become effectively illegal for commercial use. They have to tighten that up so much that it would effectively result in "US Corporations cannot source anything from a foreign state". After all, if you are allowed to outsource (for example) customer-support to EU, the company you are outsourcing it to can effectively use Kimi without disclosure.
- feverzsj 3mo agoThe only thing Trump can do is building the US version of GFW, which he knows better than anyone else.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- tencentshill 3mo agoWe must all hoard all available models before they get taken down. Is anyone archiving huggingface?
- throwa356262 3mo agoPost this to https://old.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder https://old.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder
- gr_norm 3mo agoLogin-walled for me. Is there a Reddit proxy like Nitter?
- pchew 3mo agoYou can just remove the “old.” And view it on the JS invested “New Reddit” without logging in.
- troybetz 3mo agoyes and its faster than new reddit and written in rust too btw https://safereddit.com/r/datahoarder https://safereddit.com/r/datahoarder Instances: https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib-instances/blob/main/instances.md https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib-instances/blob/main/ins...
- culi 3mo agoWanna plug LibRedirect which allows you to easily set up proxies for any site (e.g. invideous for youtube, nitter for twitter, libreddit/redlib/whatever for reddit, breezewiki for fandom, etc) https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/libredirect/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/libredirect/ https://libredirect.manerakai.com/ https://libredirect.manerakai.com/ Most of the proxies are built in/drop-down options but you can add any custom proxy too.
- giancarlostoro 3mo agoI think this would be foolish, a more sound strategy is to focus on critical infrastructure and defense not using models that are "open" but they're really just binary blobs. We have models here in the states like OLMo that could receive more investing to attempt to bring them up to par with some of the frontier open-weight models, removing a lot of these concerns.
- chrisnight 3mo ago> the US can “sanction” companies that engage in intellectual property theft. Peak hypocrisy, US AI companies can train on unlimited intellectual property with 0 rights to it, while Chinese AI companies have to explicitly get the rights to data that isn’t even copyrightable/copyrighted (since AI alone can’t copyright it).
- hnfong 3mo agoIt's not IP theft if US courts say it isn't. And if the accused company is outside of the US, well, US courts have no jurisdiction so apparently the US government can just claim they are guilty and impose the sanctions...
- Frieren 3mo agoThe USA has stolen intellectual property from ALL AROUND THE WORLD. AI is not trained just in copyrighted USA content. Other countries have a say about it.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- dragontamer 3mo agoBecause they used a pirating website to get the material and stored them on their servers for personal use. The AI training part of the court case was deemed fair use.
- throw1234567891 3mo agoAnd it’s not a war if Putin says so. And it’s not a possible future invasion of Taiwan if Xi says so. Who cares what US courts say.
- MangoCoffee 3mo agoUS's court can enforce IPs. Didn't Antrhpic just agree to pay book authors billion for the recent lawsuit settlement?
- snootypoot 3mo ago[dead]
- tancop 3mo ago[flagged]
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- yoyohello13 3mo agoAre we not there yet?
- kbrisso 3mo agoI think we are pulling in the driveway.
- ch4s3 3mo agoUS real median household income has been steadily rising[1] for the last 40+ years. Life expectancy is rising again after dipping and plateauing for a few years. Employment numbers are pretty good given the macro headwinds. The US forms ~5.9 million new businesses per year which vastly out paces the EU. The US isn't without problems, but we're doing OK. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N It's incredible that not a single person replying negatively has included a single piece of data.
- Someone1234 3mo ago> US real median household income has been steadily rising[1] for the last 40+ years. Compare it to the Consumer Price Index: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUUR0000SA0R https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUUR0000SA0R
- ch4s3 3mo agoREAL income is adjusted for inflation. If real median income is increasing then it is outpacing inflation by definition.
- andai 3mo agoDon't model weights fall under free speech?
- thewebguyd 3mo agoYes, in theory, we've been through this rodeo before in the 90s. Bernstein vs. US ruled that source code is expressive speech. It's being challenged though, the court could consider weights as machine data (non-expressive operational artifacts, not human communication). the US could also pull the functional harm argument in the same way the government uses it to regulate some protected speech (like the whole debacle over DeCSS) Even if the free speech argument prevails, the US GOV can still use sanctions to prevent the public clouds from hosting any foreign open weight models, and prohibit US based sites from distributing the weights. It'll remain functionally legal for individuals (or at least, unenforceable) but in practice, you'll need to pirate the weights they won't be available from any US based site or provider and would be illegal for businesses to use, even if its a gray area, the liability will mean businesses won't touch them.
- smalltorch 3mo agoInteresting topic for sure. You could argue encryption is non-expressive operational artifacts too. Any sources on where it's being challenged with this argument? Because with free speech, you can just create entirely new languages, so who's to say my language isn't weight values? Also curious how a business would not have grounds to sue on a sanction like this Businesses (in America) have constitutional protections too.
- thewebguyd 3mo agoNo official court challenge yet, mostly lawyers/academics putting out papers after California's SB 1047. The general argument I've seen is that because weights are generated during training, and not written line by line by humans (like source code), it's non-expressive and no human understands what the raw weights mean, therefore no human reads them as expression. There's also Texas v. Johnson (the flag burning case), the court rules that for something to be protected speech it must contain an intent to convey a specific message, and a great likelihood the message will be understood. The core decision, if ever tested in court, will come down to "Are model weights an expression of human ideas? Or are they purely a mechanical tool?"
- bilbo0s 3mo agoI tell everyone whenever I get a chance, download any open weights models you can as soon as possible. Buy extra hardrives. Borrow them. Do whatever you have to do. But to paraphrase Éomer, don't trust to hope, it has abandoned these lands.
- willmadden 3mo agoOk, but in 24 months that's the equivalent of downloading 100 variations of MSDOS. Torrents and vpn exist. I think this is more of a problem for corporations.
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo agoIf there were ever a sign I need to get mirroring, this is it. What are the best Chinese models on HuggingFace today? Bucket by ideal RAM: <16GB, <32GB, <96, <256, 256+ Text generation, image generation, TTS, etc
- throwa356262 3mo agoIt is a lost opportunity that huggingface (or unsloth) frontpage doesn't have a list like this that updates which each model release.
- abidlabs 3mo agoHugging Face recently added a filter directly on the models page: https://huggingface.co/models https://huggingface.co/models that lets you filter based on hardware.
- walrus01 3mo agoFrom the HF front page if you hit "models" it should auto sort by trending before you change any search parameters, so if anything large, capable and popular has just been released it's almost certainly going to be at the top of the list.
- commoner 3mo agoAlibaba Cloud runs ModelScope, which is like Hugging Face but based in China: - https://modelscope.ai https://modelscope.ai - Source code (ironically on GitHub): https://github.com/modelscope/modelscope https://github.com/modelscope/modelscope It's not limited to Alibaba's Qwen. All of the other major Chinese ones are on there (GLM, DeepSeek, Kimi, etc.) as well as finetunes and quantizations of the non-Chinese ones.
- abidlabs 3mo agoHugging Face recently added a filter directly on the models page: https://huggingface.co/models https://huggingface.co/models that lets you filter based on hardware.
- ninjahawk1 3mo agoThe U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.
- GlickWick 3mo agoI do care. It's an unfortunate truth that we're exiting a global peace era and entering one of (hopefully just...) implied conflict. Our biggest geopolitical rival that's been threatening a hot war also distilling the things we build is not a good thing. Trump is a huge self-own by our electorate sadly, but being concerned about a conflict between China and the US is a very bi-partisan concern for good reason.
- Tostino 3mo agoAsk yourself, who seems to be the destabilizing force if you take a step back and look at the state of things objectively? There is some blame on all sides for sure, not saying it's black and white...but come on.
- GlickWick 3mo agoI think the major destabilizing force is the country that has been building the infrastructure for a hot war over Taiwan for the last decade while simultaneously blatantly funding the conquest of Ukraine. The US stupidly withdrawing from the world stage is definitely making this worse, of course, but it is not the catalyst. It's unfortunately a very likely side effect of a social media campaign by the same actor to make said hot war easier to win.
- henry2023 3mo agoHey, we started another war and are funding the most destabilizing force in the world but look at this theoretical war …
- intheitmines 3mo agoHow do you ban numbers?
- gdiamos 3mo agoHow do you ban melted sand?
- wizzzzzy 3mo agoIn the same way you can for any digital information?
- rkozik1989 3mo agoThe same way you ban pirated media from being downloadable on the Internet: not effectively.
- thewebguyd 3mo agoTrade restrictions, sanctions. You can't effectively ban for individuals, but you can make it so legally risky for US based companies that it becomes effectively illegal as no US company will touch them, nor host them.
- dualvariable 3mo agoI'm old enough to remember "this shirt is a munition" and the DeCSS t-shirt.
- gdiamos 3mo agoI think we should shut it off. It would force US companies to build open models.
- thewebguyd 3mo agoUS labs would have even less incentive to build open if we blocked foreign open weight models, and we'd be engaging in protectionism yet again, also giving them zero incentive to compete.
- preg_match 3mo agoI think it would do the opposite. They would have a monopoly just handed to them, and a large market with no options. They'd have zero incentives to provide open weight models. Right now, I think their incentive is the highest: Chinese AI companies are dropping competitive models left and right, and clearly American companies are feeling the pressure, given they're pulling every legal leg they can to suppress their competition. If we just remove the competition, Anthropic et al win. It's a temporary and short-sighted victory, but this is America. Every company is short-sighted, it's baked into our financial infrastructure.
- formerly_proven 3mo agoIllegal numbers 2: Electric Trumpaloo
- nazgulsenpai 3mo agoNeed to print a tshirt with the weights of Kimi 3
- aslkalska 3mo agoside note : I wish they had an actual link to the companies instead of just their names in https://littletech.org/membership https://littletech.org/membership
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- npodbielski 3mo agoSo Y Combinator signed it too? But this is HN, Y combinator website. I think I am missing something because I never read any opinion like 'we should ban Chinese models'.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- Tenoke 3mo agoY Combinator the company doesnt particularly have to share the opinions of hackernews the public site.
- dang 3mo agoThat's true, and often they diverge. But in this case I think the opinions within YC itself and in the HN community at large are more or less the same - we all want open-weight models.
- drbscl 3mo agoOpenAI's strategy lead made a post on X advocating for the banning of Chinese models in the wake of Kimi K3's release. To be clear, YCombinator et al are advocating for them to remain unbanned.
- npodbielski 3mo agoah that makes sense now! I must be tired...
- addandsubtract 3mo agoThey signed the letter to prevent the banning on open-weight models.
- officialchicken 3mo agoWhy jump to complex technical and policy solutions when an Open Weights AI champion trophy, in solid gold, is being requested by the Commander in Thief?
- jgbuddy 3mo agoThe point of open weight models is that this is not possible, companies will be built by taking 'contraband' chinese open weight models and marketing as something from the US
- intrasight 3mo agoWithout a massive amount of post-training, it will be obvious that they are Chinese models with Chinese political ideology. I doubt that there's any business model that would work there.
- retr0rocket 3mo ago[dead]
- jgbuddy 3mo agoI don't think the post-training would be that difficult. I ran an experiment on kimi k3 just now: User: is taiwan part of china? Kimi: Taiwan's political status is a complex and contested issue. Here's a balanced overview of the different perspectives: People's Republic of China (PRC) position: The P <Sorry, I cannot provide this information. Please feel free to ask another question.> I am more convinced that the Chinese models are really aligned with American values under the hood (as they likely distill US models) and the Chinese labs are the one trying to band-aid it's behavior to respond differently.
- theredleft 3mo agoask grok about the epstein files. ask gemini about the epstein files. ask them about obama's legacy as a war criminal and the reclassification of civilians as combatants to make drone striking weddings more palatable unbelievable chauvinism in here
- verdverm 3mo agoHow are you accessing K3? If it is through Moonshot's API, then there is very likely guardrails, because it seems like it wanted to answer and was then cutoff. We are starting to get access to K3 from US providers now, curious if they exhibit the same response pattern?
- otikik 3mo agoThe turntables do their thing.
- softwaredoug 3mo agoI see we're doing "too big to fail" again...
- jmyeet 3mo agoThe US government exists to protect American capital and the interests of capital owners. I'm not sure why people are still confused by this. This is about OpenAI, Anthropic and SpaceX. OpenAI, in particular, is a bet on there being a moat for AI and OpenAI "winning". Chinese models threaten this moat. The CCP has decided that it is in China's national security interests to not have Western companies "own" or "win" AI. These AI giants are large enough that the US government is going to intervene to try and protect this outcome. This is a losing battle.
- sixdimensional 3mo agoI think that we humans still have a really tough time differentiating and classifying between public and private goods (and everything in between) from an economic sense. Unfortunately, capitalism of today appears to find public goods and strong, public, healthy public goods to be undesirable investments. Yet, it seems inevitable that some things trend that direction. I feel if we could get a better handle on what goods fall into which category, and find ways to make those things sustainable and even grow, the situation could get better. I'm speaking purely from observations here but it also looks like in some ways, the "invisible hand of the economy" (i.e. Adam Smith) might sort these things out by itself, albeit, painfully. We could look at the fact that LLMs were mostly created from the public domain (except when they were not), and the resulting products/services (expensive to create/operate, benefits a huge swath of humanity, has all kinds of externality issues) as something that perhaps should again almost be considered as a public good. If we look at the struggles LLM/AI companies have had with legal structure choices, such as nonprofit, for profit, etc and pricing (e.g. do we make it accessible at a loss? Do we extract huge profits?) as a kind of moral dilemma of classifying this new economic good (LLM-based AI). In the US, the government has been taking investment interests in some tech companies, and recent proposals even include establishing sovereign wealth funds around AI/LLM. I think this is further evidence that the system is trying to figure out how to classify these new economic goods and corporations.
- bethekidyouwant 3mo ago“And they warn that banning Americans from downloading Chinese open-weight models wouldn’t stop their proliferation — but would weaken U.S. startups.” Well this doesn’t even make sense.
- krupan 3mo agoIt does because corporations, especially smaller ones competing with bigger ones, actually do get prosecuted for violating restrictions like this a lot more than individuals do.
- qlte 3mo agoWeaken U.S startups = Can’t legally develop commercial products that use or remix the latest open weights models in novel/creative/cost-reducing/etc ways, while companies from the rest of the world could (including China, who this is ostensibly supposed to be punishing) Wouldn't stop proliferation = Despite that, your non-programmer 14 year old child can still install the latest Qwen model on Day 1 by copying a one liner command they got from a YouTube short that sources from a Gitlab repo outside US jurisdiction
- anonbuddy 3mo agothis would actually be big win for non US founders
- curious_cat_163 3mo agoexactly. a ban or even any restriction that is "fixed" in time is a bad idea. The frontier is evolving so fast: any regulatory regime that started with a map of capabilities that 2025 frontier had is obsolete. Same would be true next year. This just becomes a whackamole and a government which is well-meaning and has good reasons to regulate, will have trouble keeping up. But we know this about regulations. Like there is a century of literature on how to do this for new tech. It always targets harm prevention first. I thought Demis had the right framework for that part. I don't know if I agree fully with a self-regulatory regime because can become problematic if you don't have the right people around the table.
- gaws 3mo ago"Nooooo!!! We already laid off half our workforce and got priced out of models from American companies. We need the cheaper models, even risking giving all our data to a foreign adversary, so our big number goes up long enough for us to get acquired!!!"
- throw1234567891 3mo agoIt will come for you too, fool. You obviously have no fucking clue what’s the deal with open-weight models. Can I run Fable on my computer? No. Can I run Depseek 4 or glm5.2 on my computer? Yes.
- gaws 3mo ago> It will come for you too, fool. Thankfully, I'm not in a position in which any of this will negatively impact me. But, please, keep seething.
- throw1234567891 3mo agoProverbial “you”. You laugh, hopefully your leg doesn’t slip before it truly does not matter anymore.
- jMyles 3mo agoEven more bizarre than debating over whether we can stop the free flow of information across communications surfaces (we can't)... is the notion that this one person - a highly ineffectual occupant of an office whose relevance is rapidly decreasing... is somehow in charge of it.
- FpUser 3mo ago>"banning Americans from downloading Chinese open-weight models" - land of free is being even more so
- MeteorMarc 3mo agoWould it even be possible to ban open weight models, given all the ways they can be used in finetuned models or online services, also in 3rd countries?
- downrightmike 3mo agoOnly from federal contractors
- CurbStomper 3mo ago[dead]
- bix6 3mo ago> Almost 200 Silicon Valley companies, including Proton and Y Combinator…On Wednesday, the newly-formed Little Tech Association YC is little tech? lol wut.
- Aarostotle 3mo agoYC's entire business is finding little tech companies and helping them grow.
- bix6 3mo agoCalling YC little tech is hilarious. Billions under management and many billion+ companies.
- buellerbueller 3mo agoIt worked for the bolsheviks
- robocat 3mo ago> Little Tech Association "Little Tech" in contrast to "Big Tech" monopolies and hyperscalers Awful website: ugly particle systems with text you can't scroll to (on SE): https://littletech.org/mission https://littletech.org/mission
- bix6 3mo agoSorry but isn’t YCs entire goal to turn “little” tech into “big” tech?
- dolebirchwood 3mo agoA little bit of Googling goes a long way...
- bix6 3mo agoA little bit of explaining does to. What’s your point?
- eggy 3mo ago[flagged]
- GodelNumbering 3mo agoProprietary model weights are IP, their outputs are not IP and I can't imagine a court decision that would rule otherwise because that would set an extremely far reaching and dangerous precedent, even for American businesses. I don't think distillation as 'stealing IP' has any legal legs. They can probably claim violation of ToS at best because the terms of use do prohibit use for training rival models.
- EMIRELADERO 3mo ago> Proprietary model weights are IP I don't think they are. Not copyright at least. There may be some "trade secret" stuff for them but they're not copyrightable.
- delecti 3mo agoTrade secrets are a type of IP.
- masfuerte 3mo agoYes, but if a company publishes its trade secrets on the web you are entitled to read them and use them.
- munk-a 3mo agoOnly if you're going to use them to train an LLM! Also, more seriously, there are plenty of pieces of information that are compelled to be published that don't lose their confidentiality. There actually is a general concept that confidentiality can be lost if you are negligent in its protection but it's a very nuanced thing.
- californical 3mo agoSure, just like it’s illegal to steal the formula of Coca Cola from their documents. But you can do an analysis of a bottle of Coke to figure out exactly what’s in it. You can even make your own and sell it, if you call it a different name.
- jmtrevarton 3mo agoDoes this include Deepseek? I don't know if that would crush me, but it would definitely hurt.
- culi 3mo agoIf there's a "ban", it'd only really affect corporations right? It'd be difficult to stop indie devs and pirates from downloading the models
- willmadden 3mo agoThey'll do the "tornado cash under Biden" routine most likely.
- vkaku 3mo agoRead this thread when you get the time: https://x.com/_vkaku/status/2080352797606744209 https://x.com/_vkaku/status/2080352797606744209 Open Data+Open Models gives everyone else an advantage and bringing regulatory capture here should be appealed and brought to the FTC and the courts to challenge such regulations. Startups need better than this whole lock down into four overvalued frontier models in the US sort of thing
- JKCalhoun 3mo agoI'm only counting 3 frontier models in the U.S.… Oh, Claude tells me Llama and Grok might count.
- satvikpendem 3mo agoGrok 4.5 is better and cheaper than any Gemini models.
- sergiotapia 3mo agoGrok is a terrific model and my work horse. I hope Composer 3 reaches at least this level because Grok 4.5 intelligence + composer type speed pfffff, wild times ahead.
- pants2 3mo agoI think Grok is replacing composer now yeah? Fast mode is similar speed to composer.
- sergiotapia 3mo agoCursor has confirmed that Grok will be their flagship model, and Composer 3 their workhorse. The intention being that Grok 5 or whatever is the orchestrator and will summon sub agents using Composer 3 for work.
- dannyw 3mo ago
- WillPostForFood 3mo agoBut the idea of a blanket ban on Chinese open-weight models was not seriously discussed. Article should probably put the above higher in the story.
- iugtmkbdfil834 3mo agoAs if making something impossibly difficult to comply with is not defact ban. Case in point: OFAC sanctions waivers. Show me a bank in US that directly deals with those and you will quickly end up with rather interesting representation that mimics current AI situation.
- tokioyoyo 3mo agoDean W Ball from OpenAI kinda laid down how the “ban” would work. Everyone clowned him over the weekend, but pretty much everything he said had substance. It’ll most likely will go that way - “mention in memos in all gov orgs they’re not supposed to use any AI other than American ones. And let the implications handle everything else, rather than legalese”
- s3p 3mo agoGoing to bet now that it never gets banned. Will come back in a few weeks to see the result :)
- epolanski 3mo agoWhat is this socialism about using non-us open weight ai? Dystopic. What next? Some communist open source Finnish operating system?
- capevace 3mo agoI‘m not even sure what the argument for banning Chinese models/open weights even is supposed to be? 1. if it’s to stop hackers doing hacking things with „uncontrollable models“ then, well… they’re already doing something illegal to begin with, why would they care about breaking another law running these models? 2. if it’s to stop foreign actors, then that ban would not apply to them anyway 3. it’s not stopping distillation either, Chinese labs are already banned from using US frontier models and look at how good that is working I don’t get it. Am I missing something? The only thing a ban would do is protect the American market from further downward price pressure on inference, protecting VC investors in the short term. But thats also an admittance that the American labs can’t compete on merit anymore, and should by itself also limit the viability of the idea that all those VC billions will ever make a return? In any case this would be something benefitting only a very few for a short time (labs + investors). Someone please enlighten me what the actual argument here is, cause I can’t see it.
- Matl 3mo ago> Someone please enlighten me what the actual argument here is, cause I can’t see it. > The only thing a ban would do is protect the American market from further downward price pressure on inference, protecting VC investors in the short term. But thats also an admittance that the American labs can’t compete on merit anymore That's the argument. To be precise the publicly stated argument is that they're attacking American providers by distilling. The real aim is to eliminate competition because otherwise Anthropic and OpenAI are non viable and the US views them as crucial for winning the 'AI race' which they see as putting whoever wins it on top in terms of warfare/economic power etc.
- lizardking 3mo agoThat's the real reason, that's not the actual argument.
- m4rtink 3mo agoWe must prevent a mineshaft gap!
- 3mo ago
- shixinhb 3mo agoYou don't need an archive of huggingface. Instead you can use the Chinese version of huggingface with all Chinese models - https://www.modelscope.ai/models https://www.modelscope.ai/models
- zarzavat 3mo agoSomeone explain to me how the US would stop people from using Chinese models? Anyone in Europe can download and run a Chinese model and serve it up on the open internet to people in the US. What can the US do about that? The only thing the US can maybe do is ban exports of high powered GPUs to the EU. However the EU can retaliate by banning export of ASML machines to the US, so I don't think the US has that card to play.
- ianm218 3mo agoThe government can strong arm enterprises in a million ways. If they just issue a vague executive order large public companies won't want to buy inference from these models without regulatory certainty. Anyone in regulated industries is going to be weary of regulatory retaliation. I.e. for Google to build data centers they need the US gov to play ball, so if they were considering a service of hosting open source models on their TPUs they wouldn't do this. Another example is the merger between Paramount and Skydance where they paid out Trump to get the merger approved [1]. [1]. https://www.yahoo.com/news/paramount-settles-donald-trump-lawsuit-042610094.html?guccounter=1 https://www.yahoo.com/news/paramount-settles-donald-trump-la...
- satvikpendem 3mo agoThe US is trying to stop them for US companies, it doesn't care about non Americans.
- monooso 3mo agoThe parent comment, emphasis mine. > Anyone in Europe can download and run a Chinese model and serve it up on the open internet to people in the US.
- marmarama 3mo agoSure, but if you are a business in the US, you might not be able to use it legally. And, through the US exercising extraterritorial jurisdiction, businesses in Europe doing business with the US might not be able to use it either, for fear of reprisals. Even though the model is Chinese and hosted in Europe. This sort of thing happens all the time, especially in the finance and defence sectors.
- johnnyApplePRNG 3mo ago[flagged]
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- LatencyKills 3mo ago> 54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level [0] Trump has been openly anti-education since the 1990s. My favorite Trump quote: “I love the poorly educated.” [0]: https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/2024-2025-literacy-statistics https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/2024-2025-liter...
- esposm03 3mo ago> Be kind. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lovich 3mo agoThey attacked our premier universities and think climate change isn’t real or worse “woke”. Hell, he put RFK junior in charge of healthcare and he’s just completely anti science in favor of his various lunacies. If you have opinions on these topics and need evidence spoon fed to you after the past year and a half activity then I assume you’re commenting in bad faith and just here to back up your king.
- a_paddy 3mo agoDidn't Hugging Face have to resort to the Chinese open weight GLM model to figure out that an OpenAI was hacking it?
- Liwink 3mo agoopen weight models are not free models. Inference providers should share a meaningful percentage of revenue with the model companies. In fact, open weight model seems a solid business model - they can leverage existing cloud infra for distribution without spending massive CAPEX.
- Towaway69 3mo agoWhat happened to free trade and globalisation? Oooohhh only when it serves the west. What happened to the invisible hand of the market? Oooohhh it only when it serves the west. Well damn that the Chinese are playing the game “capitalism” better than the west. The last time this happen, the west just forced opium on China. Ironically it was the west that forced China to open its markets in the first place. History just keeps repeating like a broken record.
- nathan_compton 3mo agoNot the west, just rich people in the west.
- RazorBucksICO 3mo agoMy pet theory is that none of the Chinese labs are releasing open weight models for humanitarian reasons. I believe the Chinese government has made a cynical policy decision that AI is too valuable to allow anyone in their country capture a significant amount of its value as that might allow a person or company to accumulate wealth and influence so quickly as to challenge their power. Everyone must be kept below the God state.
- mmaunder 3mo agoThe letter really dances around the issue that we don’t want to see a ban on the release and use of open weights foreign or domestic models in the US. If we do it will leave us at a severe competitive disadvantage in a global context. Many of us would consider moving our businesses out of the US to avoid being mired in a stagnant pond that reeks of government capture by a handful of corrupt laggards whose core competency is regulating away competition and killing domestic innovation.
- firefoxd 3mo agoNote that a ban doesn't mean you can't download it anymore. Just that if you do so it will be considered illegal. A competitor can simply accuse you of using a chinese model and throw you completely off rails with an investigation. Or when the government can't get a valid search warrant for a separate crime, they can get you on suspicion if using a chinese model.
- DrBenCarson 3mo agoRemember when OpenAI were wise enough to know OpenAI should be…open? Greed will cost America the entire AI market at this rate
- ReptileMan 3mo agoAnd how are they supposed to ban them? What Chinese companies release is math.
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- andsoitis 3mo agoWhy isn’t there a competitive US or European open weights model?
- frollogaston 3mo agoThe Chinese open weights models are copies of the American closed ones. Nobody in the US is trying to do that, I guess.
- andsoitis 3mo ago> Nobody in the US is trying to do that, I guess. Yes, but WHY, I wonder. Seems like a business opportunity.
- adrian_b 3mo agoThey cannot be copies, because all of them have different structures, which are explained in published research papers, while nobody knows the structure of the American SOTA models. It is also impossible for China to have accessed the hundreds or thousands of terabytes of data that must have been hoarded by OpenAI, Anthropic or Google, so the Chinese must have gathered training data sets by themselves, by crawling the Internet and using pirate libraries, the same like Anthropic and OpenAI. If the American allegations were true, then some Chinese companies might have extracted some blackbox data about the American models, by API querying, in an amount small enough that it could be used only for the post-training of a model created independently. Such an information extraction is a breach of contract, but it cannot be called "copying", because it can be only an infinitesimal fraction of the information stored in a SOTA LLM.
- cookiengineer 3mo agoEurope is actually catching up right now. Not at the frontier like kimi and qwen 3.6 (yet) but it's just a matter of time until the European A3B models catch up, too. Apertus and Soofi, both open source (not only open weight) models: [1] https://apertus.ai/en/apps/apertus-model/ https://apertus.ai/en/apps/apertus-model/ [2] https://www.soofi.info/ https://www.soofi.info/
- rustcleaner 3mo agoCan't stop the bittorrent, won't stop the bittorrent! There's also I2PSnark, Hyphanet, and others!
- leni536 3mo agoEnglish is not my first language, but to me the construct "to urge not to do something" in the title feels off. I think I only saw it without the negative, with some implied urgency... And now that I spelled it out, "urge" and "urgent" are probably related.
- scoofy 3mo ago[flagged]
- iAMkenough 3mo ago[flagged]
- mythrwy 3mo ago[flagged]
- scoofy 3mo ago[flagged]
- mythrwy 3mo agoI didn't say "Both sides are the same". I said both candidates were morons. As far as terms, I don't like really like either side we have on the menu right now.
- nolok 3mo ago[flagged]
- mythrwy 3mo agoThat doesn't describe the candidates on offer though. Look, I just want good rational, wise, humane low touch governance without excessive political ideology nonsense. I'm sick of the wars, sick of the lies, sick of the economic yo yo of boom/bust, sick of progressivism and "woke", sick of religion being injected into the conversation, sick of idiot candidates put there by the wealthy. And no, I'm not going to pretend that Joe Biden administration or Kamala was acceptable. Nor am I going to pretend that socialism is really gonna work this time, it's not and will leave most people worse off over the long term. I realize this might be too much to ask, for but a boy can dream.
- DivingForGold 3mo ago"The Bitterness of Poor Quality Remains Long After the Sweetness of a Low Price is Forgotten" Benjamin Franklin
- nutjob2 3mo agoWhat did he say about overpaying for something only marginally better?
- victor9000 3mo agoBut you don't need an F1 car for a grocery run
- comrade1234 3mo agoWill I get my $1.90 back from deepseek? I put $2.00 on my account a couple of months ago and it's taken me this long to use $0.10 worth of tokens.
- throwatdem12311 3mo agoBlocking Chinese models would just be regulatory capture by another name. If we want OpenAI and Anthropic to improve they need to compete not just with eachother but with foreign labs too. I don’t know why anyone would think giving Mango Mussolini the power to decide what AI models they can use is a good idea.
- clemailacct1 3mo ago[flagged]
- throwatdem12311 3mo agoYou’re ok letting Donald Trump telling you what tech you’re allowed to use? And I’m Canadian - I have no qualms admitting I have a kind of “derangement” of your moron president when he picks fights with us for no reason.
- matwood 3mo ago> good dialogue about a serious issue The problem is that the way the current POTUS operates (paid for favors), means any dialog about a serious issue will include POTUS in the conversation.
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- frollogaston 3mo agoIt's not really a competition with the foreign labs cause they're copying. To illustrate the difference, if there were somehow an impenetrable firewall between the US and China, the US models would continue improving while the Chinese ones don't. The only solution is for US labs to find a way to not get copied, and idk how. Banning Chinese models doesn't help with that.
- IncreasePosts 3mo agoCould foreign labs compete with openAI and anthropic if they weren't literally just copying their outputs? Can the foreign labs actually advance the state of the art if they put openAI/anthropic out of business?
- mark_l_watson 3mo agoWhy? The current administration is doing such a fine job protecting the investments of a few hundred wealthy people, and not caring about the economy of the country. The combination of a wide range of model sizes and capabilities, with good engineering choices as which to use for what applications, that is the way.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- godwinson__4-8 3mo agoAs bad as it will be no one will be surprised when this happens. This administration does not care about the law. The president wants to keep using his position to make a generational bag. This is the same leader of the free world peddling shitcoin. Everyone knows the game someone is going to cut him a check and suddenly the Chinese models are going to be a national security threat. The only saving grace may be that when it comes to China the president has shown himself to be a paper tiger. The way he waddled around Zhongnanhai after embarrassing himself in the trade war and the Iran war was truly something. For whatever reason, Xi (like Putin) has him scared. But if enough sinophobes with deep pockets cut a check, it will not be surprising. It may even benefit China to watch the United States continue to attempt closing itself off instead of competing.
- davesque 3mo agoEverything he does benefits his adversaries because they're all playing him like a fiddle because he's basically the dumbest person alive.
- an0malous 3mo agoI don’t think he’s dumb, I think he’s very cynical and only does things he benefits from. He’s not dumb for selling out the country because he doesn’t care about the country, he’s accomplished his goal of enriching himself. I can’t find it now, but I could have sworn Trump made a comment one time where he said something very roughly like, an earthquake can just happen and a million people in India die. And he was making a point about the senseless chaos of life, and to me it seemed like a glimpse into one of his core beliefs. He doesn’t care if his actions lead to the deaths and suffering of thousands of people, he doesn’t care about democracy or the rule of law, he doesn’t care about productivity or building towards a utopia. I think he’s a deeply cynical man who sees no point to anything besides for enriching himself during the brief time he’s here. To that end, his actions aren’t dumb because he’s been pretty successful.
- godwinson__4-8 3mo agoYou are on the money with this one. My favorite example of this showing through was when Bill O'Reilly interviewed him during the superbowl. He tossed him a softball that most presidents would have whacked at to say the United States as a democracy is more virtuous than countries like Russia[1]. But he didn't. His response was, "do you think our country is so innocent"? The reason he became popular is the country had also grown cynical. The mainstream media wanted to anoint Jeb "Please Clap" Bush and another Clinton. That was the setup he walked into in 2016. A repeat of Bush v Clinton. America was over it. He is not dumb. But he is clearly not that intelligent. It doesn't take much to be a cynic. He's not even a particularly good one. He's what he has always been - a salesman, really a con artist. But he's not dumb. To be a good con artist you have to be able to read the room. That is arguably, what he is (or has been) best at. It's why his debate performances especially in 2016, shallow as they may have been, were still a masterclass in dismantling the Republican field. "You'd be in jail" and bringing Clinton's own victims to the debate were more memorable than anything Hillary said. He knows how to win. There is intelligence in that. Cynic may not even be the right word. I think he's more of a nihilist. And given how his wealth has increased while in office, he's accomplishing his goals at pretty remarkable speed. The rest is just set dressing. He'll do on AI whatever whoever at Mar-a-Lago writes the biggest check tells him to do. [1]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74DAI2hr9Kk&t=159s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74DAI2hr9Kk&t=159s
- SirHackalot 3mo agoNever seen capitalists this afraid of competition. Same story with Chinese cars… We can’t have cheap, and objectively superior EVs because of protectionist policies towards Musk and his ilk.
- analognoise 3mo agoBanning Chinese open source AI is “quick war with Iran” levels of strategic thinking.
- avaer 3mo agoBesides serving no purpose other than an attempt to enforce software by fiat (which would hurt legitimate business, make US AI companies noncompetitive, and do nothing to stop illegitimate use)... it's literally impossible to enforce. There's a million loopholes (secret distillation so it's no longer foreign, serving mystery model from different jurisdiction, putting it in your basement and not telling anyone). And you bet the motivation and money is there to jump through these hoops.
- fbrncci 3mo agoLiving outside of the US (and EU). I’m in the process of launching an agent assisted automated pentesting and authorized offensive security service. I’m using open weights models to execute the entire audit. So lets for a moment entertain the idea that the US somehow locks open weights. How are they going to stop such audits or actual attackers? A competing service in the US simple won’t be able to execute the same level of audits because many of the models refuse following penetration and offensive security testing instructions. An actual attacker is not going to limit itself to those models either. Why would anyone serious about security then limit itself too. In the end, as a non-US entity; how would the US even stop me from providing services to US companies in private? Well I have a US LLC now, but the moment they become serious about this it takes me a few weeks to incorporate in HK or SG.
- anvuong 3mo agoSimple. If they put your company on something like the entity list that Huawei is on, nobody is going to work with you, public or private. The US government can even force non-US banks from other countries to report oversea US citizens' income to the IRS, what makes you think they don't have the power or enforcement method to stop US-based entities from working with you?
- fbrncci 3mo agoI am a small entity, expecting less than $250k in yearly revenue. Somehow I’d be honored to be on that list. I wouldn’t expect to end up there either. And I could just accept crypto to circumvent any actual regulation, of course that would not be the wording or advice on my service, I’d just disable bank and credit card payments for the US and allow Crypto payments only. That’s how a lot of Chinese and Russian services already operate and have so for over a decade. Crypto would be convenient as I can even pay my inference in crypto and exchange it to cash at little to no scrutiny while still allowing it to be taxed.
- jmtulloss 3mo agoIf you're only accepting crypto, you're effectively not serving the US market and the policy would be considered successful.
- asawfofor 3mo agoReminds me of American drug import restrictions so that pharma can get recoup its R&D expenses from Americans who pay higher prescription drug prices
- Upvoter33 3mo ago"US government bans floating point numbers"
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- cmiles74 3mo agoOh man, if you weren't sure if the administration is staffed with people who do not understand the technology they are trying to manage, doubt no more! From the article... Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said Tuesday on Fox Business’ “Mornings with Maria” that the administration would investigate whether Chinese artificial intelligence companies had improperly distilled American models to power their own, saying that the U.S. can “sanction” companies that engage in intellectual property theft.
- HDBaseT 3mo agoThe US should ban Anthropic and OpenAI as they also engaged in intellectual property theft.
- gverrilla 3mo agoComrade Jianguo
- rose-knuckle17 3mo agomost startup founders can't suck trump's dick with enough money to make him give a shit about their needs. Society gets what it allows.
- khriss 3mo agoThis is such a fundamentally misguided policy. The real competition isn't where the models are today. It's where the innovation will be tomorrow and what that should look like. Trying to protect existing incumbents by banning Chinese open weight models is only going to stack the deck further in favour of Open AI and Anthropic. The real edge that the United States had was never excelling in the here and now. It was in being one step ahead in figuring out what the 'next big thing' was going to be. Propping up a duopoly that squeezes out all other competitors is the very opposite of that. Software and technology is probably the last bastion where the United States still has somewhat of an ability to out-compete the Chinese. Our lead in this area came from allowing upstarts and innovators to kill off and replace the fossilized incumbents, not by propping up the big shots. I am genuinely bewildered as to why we would be hell-bent on destroying that advantage.
- mmonaghan 3mo agoI think distillation is inevitable and pretty hard to prevent but I also dunno why anyone would spend billions to train frontier models if there's enough distillation going on to get near it with much lower spend.
- slashdave 3mo agoOh, you mean not commit fraud? Why would any respectable company do that?
- potsandpans 3mo agoExcept this is not fraud. And just because a company _really_ wants to make a trillion dollar valuation doesn't mean they get to invent a new type of fraud.
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- slashdave 3mo agoYes, breaking the terms of use is fraud. And, no, no self-respecting company would do this deliberately.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- potsandpans 3mo agoyou seem to think just saying things makes them true. how's that working out for you?
- chrismarlow9 3mo agoThis seems odd to say about a group of companies that supposedly built this on scraped data.
- dannyw 3mo ago
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- Frannky 3mo agoPeople want to get from A to B. Someone makes a rule to stop them. So they go from A to C to B instead — or settle for something close enough to B. The rule-makers don't stop anyone, and often the end state is worse than before the rule existed. This happens constantly with tech and the laws that try to contain it. Tech is like reality: there are endless routes to roughly the same destination, and rules are slow. The asymmetry is the whole problem — you only need to find one new route; they have to block every possible one.
- aussieguy1234 3mo agoI've heard of Fully Automated Luxury Communism as an alternative economic model. The idea is machines do most work and humans don't work unless they actually want to. Supposedly everyone lives luxury lives of abundance with lots of free time. I'd only accept something like that if the people actually retained control at all levels, not the government.
- blacksoil 3mo agoThey argue that the Chinese models distill US models as one of the basis of the potential ban. I think it's quite ironic considering even the US models themselves are using data out there on the internet without asking for permissions and in many cases even infringing copyrights...
- anon373839 3mo agoThe real threat is the time machine Moonshot built to distill Fable and Sol before those models were even available! And with K3 surpassing Fable by a wide margin in some domains, Moonshot apparently also have distilled models that won't be released for some time into the future.
- mirekrusin 3mo agoThey should codename next open model "flux capacitor". Capability to travel in time is real issue as well as ability of open models to easily attack fable and sol - models which are completely defenseless.
- mnadkvlb 3mo agoThis is such a Patrick Boyle level humor. Thanks for making my day :)
- Madmallard 3mo agoHow exactly would they even shut off Chinese open weight AI?
- nirui 3mo agoOne question here: Why you don't see a lot of good American open weight models on the market? I'm guess it's about money? Could there be ways to lower that cost? Sharing idle GPUs through network (like Folding@home, BOINC), open and fair market for training data, open source training framework, and such? This whole Chinese AI thing makes me giggle at these American AI companies, but the ultimate solution/long-term goal is still to make the technology universal. I don't think China alone can make it happen. Also, if Americans can too offer open weight models, that could change the logic of their laws, making it more open rather than protective.
- calebkaiser 3mo agoMoney is a big part of it. The notable thing about Chinese open models is their size. Most open source models out of US labs have not tried to compete with the enormous flagship models you see from frontier labs now. Cohere, Arcee, Poolside, etc all put out open source models, and of course, Google has their Gemma line, Meta has their open models, OpenAI released an open weight 120b model, etc. The incentives are just tricky for running a massive training run for a fully open model. Monetizing can be hard, as if you want to monetize inference, you'll be competing against platforms like Fireworks etc that will also be serving your model. Thinking Machines just released an enormous open model though, and I'm hopeful to see more of this globally. I believe open models are emphatically a good thing. But I do sympathize with smaller labs trying to figure out the economics.
- siruncledrew 3mo agoI guess the money printing is slowing down, so the most important thing is to keep it printing fast. And of course those in-or-adjacent-to the White House are trying to blatantly grab that printed cash.
- flintapi 3mo ago[flagged]
- luen 3mo agoThe Spear of Closed Source and the Shield of Open Source.
- hn_submit 3mo agoIs Proton U.S. based? I thought they were Swiss.
- nullbio 3mo agoYou guys need to wake up and realize that Anthropic are the enemy. They just increased their political spending as well... Stop giving them your money or this never ends.
- vaaal 3mo agoCan you elaborate on what makes you say this? I'm really struggling to understand the source of all the Anthropic hate on HN recently.
- desterothx 3mo agoWell they were founded by splitting off from OAI because of ethics concerns, portraying themselves as the good guys, and then turned around and did nothing different than OAI. Basically I think people thought the big corporation was on their side, and are now surprised that they are no different than the competition, which can leave a sour taste in your mouth
- regexorcist 3mo agoThey are lobbying hard for a monopoly, or duopoly at best, in AI, based on protectionism rather than merit.
- nullbio 3mo agoThey're the only company that didn't sign https://x.com/beffjezos/status/2080858083472146656 https://x.com/beffjezos/status/2080858083472146656 Put the pieces together. They are the ones lobbying for this. They've been attempting regulatory capture for years. They're also known for ripping customers off.
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- sqemo 3mo agoI'm not sure whether Chinese AI models are being banned because of concerns about corporate data leaks, to slow China's AI development, or to protect the U.S. AI industry. But for startups, I think affordability is probably the most important factor.
- ANarrativeApe 3mo agoSo what is the mechanism that the administratuon would use to block access? I get how China could block access to Chinese LLMs, but any startup that can't or won't bypass a US imposed block on a Chinese offering was going to fail anyway.
- rw2 3mo agoChinese open models are only push Anthropic and Open AI to innovate more, they are a good thing. If they don't want distillation attack they should use KYC.
- shevy-java 3mo agoThey need to get rid of the Trump family dynasty first. That family is like the ultimate Al Capone family. It is perfected corruption on a daily basis. They wage wars even when a large majority of the population (see recent polls too) is against that, despite claiming there will be no more forever wars - we are seeing right now how those network of lies by the orange king are crumbling down.
- przemarzec 3mo ago[dead]
- aucisson_masque 3mo agoSince it's open, everyone can download and run it on their computer, it makes no sense to ban them. Everyone would still keep using them.
- __erik 3mo agoI kind of buy that Chinese models should only be usable via western hosts, but completely shutting them off would be a massive self own.
- jiaosdjf 3mo agoBanning them would hand European startups a gift of low cost inference so I am 100% in support of this. The globalists had no problem selling out our manufacturing to China, now they are crying because China can provide a cheaper service. Anthropic and OpenAI have executed the greatest intellectual property heist in human history and they are angry because China stole from thieves and distillation isn't even technically legally defined yet. As much as I despise the CCP you better believe I'm using the cheapest models.
- cloakandswagger 3mo agoThe globalists had no problem selling out our manufacturing to China, now they are crying because China can provide a cheaper service. The globalists of old would happily hand AI dominance to China in exchange for a decade or two of short-term gains. The fact that protectionist measures are even being considered shows that the globalists who sold out manufacturing to China aren't at the wheel anymore.
- orloffm 3mo agoThey are. Selling out was done with the expectation that "the West" will outsource the basics, but will have hands freed to "reach singularity" and will keep the braids of all the technological chains. Now the "reaching singularity" itself is being lost, so everyone suddenly understands that there is nothing left.
- guess_who_is 3mo agoThe world needs to shut off american social media and digital services.
- hereme888 3mo agoIt baffles me how naive people are about China and their practices despite nonstop evidence, and then justify their arguments one way or another. But many commenters are CCP propagandists, some even trying to convince people the US companies are the enemy! That's straight up propaganda.
- sreekanth850 3mo agoif you can't compete, just ban them. what a clowns.
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- Arshad-Talpur 3mo agoThe whole article is very well summarized in these two lines :American leadership requires two things: world-leading American open-weight models and continued access for U.S. builders to open models already available worldwide, and I beleive Not only US but Europe and all around the Globe we should have same pursuit.
- cregy 3mo agoThey will need to do something new here, somewhere between patents and copyright, to help protect US intellectual property on the AI stage. Otherwise, US r&d will fold on this. Longer term, 2 years plus, it will be a race to the cheapest as almost all models will be better than our current frontier ones.
- impossiblefork 3mo agoHow would that be justified, because as I see it would necessarily treat model outputs as more protected than actual human output? Surely Anthropic/OpenAI ToS isn't something which can have more weight than, let's say, the ToS of a website expressed through robots.txt, considering that for the length, actual human effort has gone into writing the text, at a cost much greater than anything output by an LLM. So so long as the AI firms are allowed to crawl and then train on human-generated websites that don't allow crawling, but are crawled anyway, I think this kind of thing is really hard to justify.
- smarnach 3mo agoAmerican AI companies pirated hundreds of thousands of books, scraped the web against the express wish of site owners, extracted all public GitHub repositories without the explicit consent of code authors and distilled all of that information, basically the entire knowledge humanity built over thousands of years, into large language models. The way these models were built was ethically questionable. The models are out there now, and time can't be rolled back, but I still don't think the companies who built the models by ignoring intellectual property rights deserve any special protection of their own intellectual property.
- regexorcist 3mo ago> the U.S. can “sanction” companies that engage in intellectual property theft The hypocrisy is off the charts.
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- lorreyfum 3mo agoNow you know who is on which side.
- gnarlouse 3mo agoIf the US AI market collapses, the entire US economy collapses.
- gnarlouse 3mo agoWhy are you booing me I'm right
- jingpostmedia 3mo ago[flagged]
- MetroWind 3mo agolmao US needs China's input on how to build the GFW.
- econ 3mo agoAs I was hoarding rss feeds I started wondering what news is and perhaps what it could and should be. The data showed that mainstream news only happens in specific countries. The rest of the world is only newsworthy if many people die or it affects the west. It's not some CONSPIRACY but simple monkey see monkey do. A kind of imitation olympics and echo chamber. For a news website HN has very little coverage of Chinese stuff before LLMs so you end up with everything china in one topic. There is advantage to be had in being the center of attention but to some extend you also have to look around you. In contrast with the Chinese government throwing it's weight around and the US ecosystem Africa lacks large incumbents. There are different challenged but your competitors have to deal with them too. They seem to think crypto is the same thing as fintech which is fascinating on its own. Lots of tech news all over the world and the sub set involving us companies alone should easily be newsworthy here.
- riceball 3mo ago[flagged]