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BYD Sells 4.6M Vehicles in 2025, Meets Revised Sales Goal

361 points by toomuchtodo 11mo ago

toomuchtodo 11mo ago
https://archive.today/pFuU6 https://archive.today/pFuU6
alecco 11mo ago
> Source: company statements Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots: https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-of-stockpiling-cars-illegally https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-... And BYD sits on a pile of debt they use to pay suppliers expecting ever-increasing sales (Evergrande business model). https://medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/a-deep-dive-into-byds-suspicious-financial-engineering-b47381f476e8 https://medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/a-deep-dive-into-byds-s...
- AnotherGoodName 11mo ago
  It seems that BYD are storing cars improperly but there’s nothing in the first link about financial engineering.
- bryanlarsen 11mo ago
  A car transport holds thousands of ships. Therefore requiring temporary storage for thousands of cars is normal. Even if you count the massive "hidden debt", BYD's debt load is still a small fraction of the big car makers, many of whom hold over $200 billion in debt.
  - honeycrispy 11mo ago
    Which car makers? Ford, GMC, Chevrolet are all closer to $100 billion. Tesla holds $13b.
    - chollida1 11mo ago
      https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th...
      - thelastgallon 11mo ago
        Wow! Toyota $269B debt vs BYD $5.6B debt
        woodpanel 11mo ago
        > its Net Debt/EBITDA was around 3.7x, indicating strong earnings cover for its debt TLDR: Toyota can afford it
        bryanlarsen 11mo ago
        Both figures need to be qualified. 1. The BYD debt is alleged to be undercounted due to treating suppliers as lenders. 2. The Toyota debt includes a large chunk of lease financing. Which sort of doesn't count. But even if you adjust Toyota's down and BYD's up, Toyota's is still significantly larger.
- baxtr 11mo ago
  A friend of mine works in the chemical industry in Europe. One reason European producers are currently facing challenges is that Chinese producers are dumping chemicals into the global market at heavy discounts. The underlying cause of this is that the Chinese housing market, which previously absorbed almost all chemicals, has effectively stalled (Evergrande, et al.). I wonder whether we're observing a similar effect in the automobile industry as well.
  - smallmancontrov 11mo ago
    Yes, but causality is backwards: the Chinese housing market stalled because China took the debt punch-bowl away from housing and gave it to the industrial sector. It's also worth mentioning that loan subsidies play a bigger role in Chinese capital markets: Chinese industry is largely capitalized with state debt rather than private debt/equity or public markets. Zooming out, as a response to Trump's 1st term tariffs China went on a big autarky push by redirecting its citizens' and companies' deposits into a loan bazooka for the industrial sector. We are now seeing the fruits of that. The big questions have to do with (true) profitability and (true) balance sheets: can the new industries service their debts well enough for the government to hold face?
  - tokioyoyo 11mo ago
    Are they actually dumping, or extraction/refinement of materials is actually much cheaper in China, so it feels like dumping? Frankly, I don’t mind it, because western companies should also engage in this behaviour, if they can. Sell physical items for cheaper than it takes to produce them! They’re doing it with services and etc. anyways, might as well do it with physical products too.
    - themaninthedark 11mo ago
      How is extraction/refinement of materials much cheaper in China? I have been told they are reaching wage parity with the west, so not labor cost. Reuters agrees with op: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-started-before-tariffs-ecb-study-finds-2025-11-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-st...
- toomuchtodo 11mo ago
  BYD owns their own fleet of car carriers for export, with the capacity to have ~30k vehicles shipping to other markets at any one time on their vessels. From this piece: > BYD Deliveries outside of China hit 1.05 million in 2025. The company has set a goal to expand overseas sales to between 1.5 million to 1.6 million units in 2026, according to a Citigroup Inc. report in November that cited a meeting with BYD management. Edit: The debt is irrelevant, China isn’t America. They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out, but still have a third of the world’s manufacturing capacity. Tesla exists on vibes, Chinese EV makers build, for example. jmyeet’s comment mostly nails this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 (citations) (global light vehicle TAM is ~90M units/year, and Chinese EV automakers are going to soak the market with their production capacity)
  - faitswulff 11mo ago
    > They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out This is just the reverse, actually, China isn’t afraid to go so far as to jail CEOs. There is no such thing as too big to fail in China, and all the Chinese domestic companies know it. The bailout playbook is a western thing.
    - toomuchtodo 11mo ago
      China has been performing debt swaps with local governments to clean up their balance sheets [1], so used as an example. Agree with all of your comment. People make the mistake that China plays by artificial US capital market rules around profit and debt; they do not. They optimize for physical world success, not line go up. [1] Why China Is Hoping $1.6 Trillion Can Fix Its Hidden Debt Problem - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-economy-can-1-6-trillion-help-solve-xi-s-hidden-debt-problem https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-eco... | https://archive.today/HsaHV https://archive.today/HsaHV - April 16th, 2025
      - faitswulff 11mo ago
- SapporoChris 11mo ago
  regarding: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots" Sure you can post a speculative article, but this link is far more informative. https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-solved-99900 https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-s... It doesn't really appear to be anything of grand significance.
- thesmtsolver2 11mo ago
  Also their abysmal human rights record https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-ranking-electric-vehicle-industry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...
- bigfatkitten 11mo ago
  Dumping notwithstanding, they're still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...
- bigfatkitten 11mo ago
  Dumping notwithstanding, BYD is still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. If you account for the fact that Australian market Teslas are built in China, then China is producing 8 of the top 10 EVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...
  - dalyons 11mo ago
    Which is direct evidence for what would happen if they were allowed to sell fairly into the US and Europe. The future of cars is Chinese, the US automakers can’t survive on protectionism forever
    - ehnto 11mo ago
      Not that I am for it, but why not? If no other cars enter the market, or they're forced to be uncompetitive, then what choice would consumers have?
- nl 11mo ago
  They have $5.6B in debt, around the same as Mazda and Polestar and roughly half Tesla's $13B. https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th... And vast parking lots full of cars isn't dumping, it where they put them before sending them to dealers: > its parking areas are still brimming with new BYDs fresh from arriving at nearby Port Kembla ahead of their delivery to BYD dealers.
- ulfw 11mo ago
  You write and I quote: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars" Your own link to proof your quote says: "Hundreds of cars alleged to be illegally stored at a NSW fun park"
ZeroGravitas 11mo ago
Selling that many cars despite intense competition at home and trade barriers abroad seems the more natural way to express that story. They instead focused on how in evil communist China you need to continue to make better cars than rivals in order for your business to succeed and grow. What a strange system they have over there. If only they were capitalist like the US and being an incumbent connected to the regime was all you needed to keep extracting money from the population despite product stagnation.
- djohnston 11mo ago
  Two things can be true at once: 1. BYD has rapidly surpassed many western companies in terms of product quality / desirability 2. Chinese automotive industry is a strategic threat to Western military capabilities. If they are successful in usurping European / American auto manufacturers, it will be a death blow to an already hollowed-out industrial base that is critical to any sustained military engagement. So, yes, western companies have stagnated, and yes, the West needs to keep these dinosaurs around through subsidies (which Chinese manufacturers also receieve from their regime).
  - blackjack_ 11mo ago
    If the US had a competent government they would react by pulling the same playbook as China to compete. Heavily subsidize and incentivize production of EVs by new companies to replace the rotten core of existing US automakers to produce price competitive and quality competitive vehicles, then let the old guard burn down. Subsidizing the rotten core of corrupt US automakers will not produce a new or functional industrial base. It will simply maintain the illusion of an industrial base until anything of importance needs done. But that’s basically the MO of any “mature” industry in the US.
    - rangestransform 11mo ago
      What you’re proposing is basically the EV subsidy, which got gutted because Americans got pissy about lifting a single finger to benefit anyone slightly more fortunate than themselves
padjo 11mo ago
I’ve been hearing about the rise of the Chinese car industry for 20 years, judging by the number of BYDs I’m now seeing it has finally happened.
- melling 11mo ago
  China is the largest car market in the world. Almost twice as large as the United States.
  - culi 11mo ago
    China is also over 70% of the world's EV production
- the_arun 11mo ago
  Xiaomi is another maker. I saw a good review on Xiaomi SU7 - https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI by Marques Brownlee
- justinhj 11mo ago
  They also migrated 100s of millions of mopeds to electric bikes and shipped new ebikes over the last 10 years. That enormous scale no doubt fed directly to battery technology and assembly techniques that help with cars. Many Chinese don't own cars. (That's changing fast).
- renewiltord 11mo ago
  If you only travel to North America and Europe you’d never know but I went to South America and India and the former mostly had Chinese cars and the latter had big ads for a BYD MPV everywhere in Bangalore. So the Chinese car makers are popular outside the West. I drove a couple of Changan cars and they weren’t even as nice as my Subaru in terms of handling but they functioned well as cars.
  - phatfish 11mo ago
    BYD is very much present in the UK (Telsa still seem the most common, but BYD are getting close), it must be the same in mainland Europe unless the EU is blocking them more aggressively. The Ford dealer down the road from me turned into a BYD service centre in the last couple of months.
AnotherGoodName 11mo ago
I think EU/NA residents are a little naive on how much Chinese cars are dominating the market. Chinese cars don't sell just in China. They utterly dominate globally outside of EU/NA where they face extreme tariffs. To the point where certain cars that you'd say were American (eg. Tesla) actually make most of their cars in China. Right now around the world in non EU/NA countries Tesla's a bit on the nose. All Tesla's in Australia are Chinese made regardless but it's then a choice of Chinese made Tesla vs Chinese made BYD and the BYDs are by all reports excellent cars. PS to Canadians: You could be paying ~50% less for the same car, even same model to same model by allowing Chinese made cars in and it'd help you screw over a country that threatened you.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  > They utterly dominate globally outside of EU/NA where they face extreme tariffs. Even inside of EU, seemingly BYD have reasonable prices, especially compared to their EU competitors. I'm an current Audi owner in Spain, who is currently very close of getting a BYD DM-i Touring, and compared to what I would get from Audi for the same price, BYD still offers a lot more in everything except "nice steering feeling", at least from what I've gathered from my test drives.
  - eisa01 11mo ago
    That's because the car lobby only cared about electric vehicle tariffs, the petrol cars from China are tax free (There's also anti-dumping tariffs on electric bikes from China, I wonder if it's the same lobby...)
  - t0mas88 11mo ago
    As a long term BMW driver instead of Audi I have the same. I'm swapping one of my two BMWs for a Model Y Premium. Also tried the BYD 7 but the Model Y felt nicer to drive and with more space. The BMW iX1 is disappointing in range, interior luxury and power. It's below an older 6 series (that I'm switching from), and much less powerful than a Model Y AWD. No idea why BMW thinks they can price it like they do. The other option was the BMW i5 Touring but it's more expensive and feels "old" already.
dhx 11mo ago
Compare at the same scale: Vantor Legion-2 image of the BYD plant in Zhengzhou as captured on 18 January 2025: https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=113.9361%2C34.3946%2C16 https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=113.9361%2... Vantor WorldView-3 image of the Tesla plant in Austin as captured on 31 January 2024: https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=-97.6189%2C30.2212%2C16 https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=-97.6189%2...
- toomuchtodo 11mo ago
  The size of BYD's factory - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42228138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42228138 - November 2024 (615 comments)
  - aeonfox 11mo ago
    No two ways to look at it. Electrification is the inevitable next step for mobility, and BYD are going to be top dog. It's pretty obvious why Tesla is 'diversifying'/divesting into robotics, but Asia has plenty of movers in that space too, not least BYD. SpaceX is the only moat Elon has left.
    - toomuchtodo 11mo ago
      China is currently performing test flights of reusable launch vehicles, so SpaceX moat is temporary. China just carried out its second reusable launch attempt in three weeks - https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/12/china-just-carried-out-its-second-reusable-launch-attempt-in-three-weeks/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/12/china-just-carried-out... - December 23rd, 2025 (Long March 12A)
      - tw1984 11mo ago
        > China is currently performing test flights of reusable launch vehicles, so SpaceX moat is temporary. extra fun - China is also spending lots of $$$ on electromagnetic rocket launch. China does bet on any particular technical path, it invests on all possible paths.
object-a 11mo ago
For anyone who has tried cars from both automakers, how does BYD compare to Tesla on similar trim vehicles?
- AnotherGoodName 11mo ago
  If you had to pay US/EU prices for a Tesla vs BYD you'd go with BYD no question. But the majority of Teslas are made in China and when put a Chinese made Tesla alongside a Chinese made BYD it's a coin flip. So as an Australian I'd roughly rate them the same with BYD high end matching Tesla's high end and BYD having a low end that Tesla doesn't compete with (the Atto which is ~USD $15000 for a small electric hatchback has no Tesla equivalent).
  - mvdtnz 11mo ago
    BYD doesn't sell in USA.
    - SapporoChris 11mo ago
      Byd Auto Motor, Inc. 1800 S Figueroa St, Los Angeles, CA 90015 https://www.byd.international/city/los-angeles https://www.byd.international/city/los-angeles
      - linsomniac 11mo ago
        Ok, but "where the rubber meets the road", I've seen 0 BYDs in the wild in the US, including a recent 1,800 mile trip half way across the country. Earlier in 2025 I took a trip to Scotland and they had 2 dealerships I saw and I saw a couple of them on the roads.
      - jlarocco 11mo ago
        Leasing a building and having an english section on the website doesn't mean they're available here yet. The pricing page shows none available in the USA: https://www.byd.international/pricing https://www.byd.international/pricing
jmyeet 11mo ago
We are seeing the culmination of the 50+ China industrialization project at the samme time as the West's 50+ year financialization and deindustrialization project, all to concentrate even more wealth in the hands of the 0.01%. China is really the only country capable and willing to build infrastructure. The ban on selling lithography AND chips to China is massively backfiring. The chip ban in particular has created a captive market for Chinese chips. In 1945, American exceptionalists believed the USSR would take 20+ yars to copy the atomic bomb, if they could do it at all. It took 4 years. China will do the same thing with EUV in the coming years. Tesla is a trillion dollar company that was created entirely by government subsidies that only continues to exist because of the tariffs and import bans on BYD in the US and much of Europe. Additionally, Tesla is completely dependent on Chinese rare earth exports for its products. As an example of how China uses state power, a famine in the 20th century caused China to decide that food security was a national security interest. The availability of cheap, quality food is viewed as essential and the state intervenes to ensure that continues. Likewise for housing. Western companies seem increasingly focused on the top 10% because the bottom 90% have nothing left to eextract.
- modeless 11mo ago
  I've never seen a comment simultaneously be so right on some things and so wrong on others. > The ban on selling lithography AND chips to China is massively backfiring Agreed. We will be screwed once China surpasses us in chip fabs, and they will. The idea that we can get a "durable advantage" by reaching AGI a few years before China is ridiculous. Using that to justify bans that only slow them down a few years at the cost of creating a chip fab juggernaut later is folly. > Tesla is a trillion dollar company that was created entirely by government subsidies that only continues to exist because of the tariffs Tesla is not supported by subsidies significantly more than any other car company and less than many including BYD obviously. They also compete directly with BYD without tariff protection worldwide and in China and do well. They are worth a trillion dollars because of the potential of their self-driving software which is far ahead of any other car company's including those in China. > Tesla is completely dependent on Chinese rare earth exports for its products. Tesla has rare earth free alternatives. There is no urgent need for them right now but they can switch if necessary.
asa400 11mo ago
It's like the 1970s all over again with how the US Big 3 makers are facing an existential threat held at bay only by protectionism. They're going to have to learn to compete yet again.
- pm90 11mo ago
  Did they ever learn to compete then? The only thing that protected them then was that Japan was a US “ally” and could be “persuaded” to go along with protectionism. China has no such need. I would argue that the 70s were a trial run for whats happening today but instead of becoming more competitive the automakers focused on lobbying for Government help; a playbook that won’t help them today. And even more stupidly, traditional American carmarkers are discontinuing EV models and shutting down factories JUST when they finally had an edge over their japanese competitors.
  - Recurecur 11mo ago
    Outside the purely electric vehicles (where I believe Tesla competes very well, where is BYD at with FSD?), is there a Chinese equivalent to: - The upcoming EREV (mostly electric extended range hybrid) F-150 truck? This is expected to have ~700 mile range, and of course no charging hassles. It’s main advantage over the now defunct Lightning will be towing range. - The Chevy Corvette Stingray? Say what you want, but the high end ICE sports cars have an appeal of their own… I believe the USA still has an edge in some areas of the market.
    - dzonga 11mo ago
      American car manufacturers don't play to their strengths e.g affordable sports cars - Chevy Corvette Stingray | Mustang GT how many are sold in foreign markets the Bronco could make a killing in Africa but is it sold there NO. I understand here in the states the 4runner has no competition - yet ford wants to kill it using the Bronco. Why not use the Bronco to kill the land cruiser in markets where people default to a Land Cruiser / Fortuner and force Toyota to play defense. E.g in Africa certain markets Ford started selling the Ford Ranger Raptor and they're making a killing - and actually starting to cause Toyota to compete and not bring their usual stale cars. However Chinese have brought their A-game too - Tank 300, BYD Shark etc
gtirloni 11mo ago
I see electric/hybrid BYD cars more and more every day. Meanwhile, US/EU automakers are still struggling to offer anything barely competitive.
- TulliusCicero 11mo ago
  I know that "laziness" is kind of a generic/useless criticism to throw at a company or sector, but there really is that vibe for EVs in the West.
  - raverbashing 11mo ago
    I really wonder what are the parts where BYD gets its competitiveness from vs where it might be behind Software explains a lot, dumping explains some of it but it might not be all of it
    - timbit42 11mo ago
      Japanese engineers disassembled a BYD vehicle said BYD's E-Axle drive system was so advanced it would take them 10 years to replicate it. BYD's blade batteries are also a major competitive advantage.
    - tonfa 11mo ago
      Isn't China at the forefront of battery technology (and BYD was initially a battery company).
  - ZeroGravitas 11mo ago
    Not angering the oligarchs who profit from oil appears to be the root cause. This then flows downstream to inconsistent and patchwork government support for the transition to EVs. The short term incentives aren't all properly aligned for car makers to fully commit to build EVs and support the supply chain to do that.
    - Tiktaalik 11mo ago
      Decades from now we're going to look at the oil patch lobbyists as the villains that killed countless jobs in NA and enabled China to take over whole industries. You had some politicians like Justin Trudeau that tried to create a frame work that would guide and advantage capital toward investing in innovative green technology and future jobs, but then politicians saw the advantage in politicizing and opposing everything and they tore this all down. Now China has continued to move ahead meanwhile NA remains at square one with increasingly backward technology, with no incentive to change. It's going to get really bad!
malshe 11mo ago
I bought BYD stock in 2025 before split in the hope that their market dominance will translate to great returns. The stock has pretty consistently traded down since then. Meanwhile Tesla stock soared purely on the air coming out of Elon’s mouth.
- hn_throwaway_99 11mo ago
  "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." But as another comment pointed out, they have tons of debt, and TFA states that their "revised" target was revised downward, meaning earlier stock valuations were priced for higher sales.
- omarforgotpwd 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  - lawlessone 11mo ago
    Do you own stock in them? it's the only thing you ever comment about.
    - sebmellen 11mo ago
      Perhaps it’s Elon’s HN account!
      - lawlessone 11mo ago
        haha, i wondered, but it's too friendly to be him
- dzhiurgis 11mo ago
  Chinese stocks don’t seem to follow any reality either. BYD is basically flat over 5 years.
  - Tiktaalik 11mo ago
thesmtsolver2 11mo ago
BYD ranks at the bottom for human rights. But interestingly, BYD’s proponents seem to brush it away. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-ranking-electric-vehicle-industry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...
- eunos 11mo ago
  Never ever I saw people in real life making purchasing decision based on "human rights"
  - why-o-why 11mo ago
    Hello. I'm one. AMA.
    - Novosell 11mo ago
      What phone do you use? If not a Fairphone, why not?
      - why-o-why 11mo ago
        Excellent! This discussion will proceed as follows: you will present a laundry list of examples, and if I answer NO to any of them, you win. It will play out as the illustration of the fallacy of all or nothing: if I am not 100% pure, then I am 100% wrong. What you will fail to understand, is that in the real world "doing the best one can" still has an impact. So I might not answer 100% all of your questions, but it doesn't mean my decisions don't have any impact. The absurdity can be illustrated by rewording: "if we can't prevent all crime, we should stop enforcing it", or "if you can't feed all the hungry children, we shouldn't bother feeding any". Unfortunately for you, I will not play your purity test game so that you can feel smug, but I will say that I do my best and I pay attention, and whenever feasible I vote with my wallet to buy from or invest in companies with stated goals that align with human rights, and I will feel disappointment over not making the "best possible choice" at every opportunity, but that will position me to do better next time. Because perfection is the enemy of progress.
whatever1 11mo ago
China has all this manufacturing capacity, and no market to sell. Really the only option they have is to swap the products to military ones so that they can create the global markets they need. It’s gonna be a bumpy decade.
- dalyons 11mo ago
  Hrm? They can and are selling to the rest of the world (except NA and Europe)
  - stavros 11mo ago
    They're selling in Europe, plenty of BYD cars in Greece.
    - dalyons 11mo ago
      Gas or ev? I thought the EVs were tariffed high
      - bryanlarsen 11mo ago
        Is 17% high?
        dalyons 11mo ago
        I was under the impression that it was %30+, guess I’m wrong
        bryanlarsen 11mo ago
        It varies by company. The companies that participated in the audit generally got hit with a 17% tariff, the ones that didn't, 34%. (oversimplified). Either way I phrased my original comment as a question as I'm not sure whether to consider 17% or 34% as "high". It depends on perspective. Both are painful, but neither are high enough to completely kill trade, like 100%+ tariffs do.
haxtormoogle 11mo ago
The number of BYD on fire videos, and examples where the tires simply fall off because they don't use enough metal in the suspension. Makes me scared to be anywhere near one of their vehicles. please keep them out of the USA for safety sake. That's 4.6M state sponsored vehicles that should not be on the road. Don't forget the chinese gov'ts ability to lock you out from driving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzbq-Q_oTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzbq-Q_oTc
- SkyeCA 11mo ago
  > and examples where the tires simply fall off because they don't use enough metal in the suspension As opposed to using too much metal in the airbags of our cars ;) > Don't forget the chinese gov'ts ability to lock you out from driving. I remain less scared of a foreign government than I do of my government that has effectively total control over my life.
- deleted 11mo ago
  [deleted]
- martinpw 11mo ago
  > please keep them out of the USA for safety sake. That's 4.6M state sponsored vehicles that should not be on the road. BYD vehicles are sold in Europe where they have to meet safety requirements that are arguably more stringent than in the US.
amelius 11mo ago
I'm not choosing sides here but if telecom equipment from e.g. HuaWei is not allowed on US/EU markets because of national security concerns, then should we allow cars?
- syntaxing 11mo ago
  We allow everything else from iPhone to your microwave. National security seems awfully like a veil for regulatory capture
- sleepyguy 11mo ago
  This is a national security concern but in a different way. It's about the de-industrialization of America. Palmer Lucky talks about this and how China's goal is to make sure America can't build anything. Once that happens we can never win a war against them.
  - energy123 11mo ago
    The combination of minimum wage and immigration restrictions is the main driver of that. If you could have Chinese workers on Chinese wages in American factories none of this would have happened. But that's not allowed.
    - SXX 11mo ago
      To build things you also need a lot of people with education, know how and experience. You cant just bring low-wage workforce and expect to compete with China. Let alone that to provide same quality of living to average chinese worker as they have in China their salary in US will have to grow 5-6 times.
      - energy123 11mo ago
        > Let alone that to provide same quality of living to average chinese worker as they have in China their salary in US will have to grow 5-6 times. That's Baumol's Cost Disease, a symptom of not allowing massive amounts of workers in. The solution is to let them in, something like how UAE or Hong Kong does it but even more. Most people don't want to do that. That's a choice they made, but they must live with the consequences and stop complaining. > To build things you also need a lot of people with education, know how and experience. Let those people in too as guest workers. There's millions of people that know how to build housing, do surgery, and so on, but they're not allowed to do it.
ttul 11mo ago
We don’t see BYD cars in the US or Canada very much yet because of tariffs. But head down to Mexico and they’re everywhere. The Chinese EV automakers are crushing it.
- petesergeant 11mo ago
  Here in Dubai too. Always rather the Careem driver turns up in a BYD than a Tesla.
- eru 11mo ago
  BYD is also very popular in Singapore. Single most bought car brand at the moment, I think. Their flagship show room has great beer and good food, too.
  - embedding-shape 11mo ago
    When I first moved to Spain, I was surprised beer was available in McDonalds, and that people commonly had beer with lunch. But not even here do we have beer available in car show rooms, that seems like the slightly wrong place for that, especially considering how strict Singapore seems from the outside.
    - rswail 11mo ago
      25 years ago I was on a project that was based out of offices next to a BMW factory, so we got canteen privileges, and the food was awesome, and beer was available as one of the beverages. This was at a car plant for people working in manufacturing.
      - davidw 11mo ago
        At the university canteens/cafeterias in Italy they had wine and beer on tap next to the soda. It wasn't very good, but I was amazed the first time I just saw the tap there in the middle of the cafeteria where anyone could just go refill when they wanted.
    - 11mo ago
srameshc 11mo ago
This is certainly alarming for US auto manufacturers. Tesla is the only successful EV car company which is able to somewhat compete with BYD, but for many it is hardly an option because of it's leadership.
- ethagnawl 11mo ago
  That's to say nothing of the cost. Assuming there were no extraordinary tarrifs on China/BYD, the entry-level offering would be in the $10K range which is about 1/4 the cost of a base Tesla Model 3.
yanhangyhy 11mo ago
meanwhile my BYD stock didn't go up... Hope 2026 this will change. For China, this is ultimately a good thing. BYD employs a large number of workers and has factories in many developing countries such as Brazil and Central Asia..., creating numerous job opportunities. Many of BYD's factories in China are located around non-first-tier cities, where workers may earn only around 5,000 to 6,000 yuan. However, considering China's extremely low cost of living and deflation, this salary is sufficient to support a family and drive more consumption in the market. The factory in zhengzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyCTwhdqOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyCTwhdqOhs zhengzhou is also famous for produce iphone before..
- meindnoch 11mo ago
  Implessive!
- maximus-decimus 11mo ago
  The stock market is forward looking. If people already expected that BYD would sell 4.6M vehicles in 2025, it was already accounted for in the stock valuation. For the stock to go up in price, they need to do even better than people expect.
deleted 11mo ago
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MrVitaliy 11mo ago
What's facinating to me is the lack of software comparison in comments. Lots of comments where people compare driving noise, material quality, price to Tesla and other brands. Sure it's important to some, but its like comparing apple vs android watch by how the leather strap feels on each device. Anyone has experience with BYD over-the-air-updates? Do they release updates often? Are there any serious bugs like with Lucid air? How does the software compare to Tesla?
- timeon 11mo ago
  It is hard to compare since I've never been in Tesla vehicle - because they are not making buses.
- ehnto 11mo ago
  Although I agree that software is an important aspect, a car mostly exists in the real and physical experience of the vehicle to me. The software situation is going to be the least of your average persons concerns I would have thought. Interesting point of view to consider however, I hadn't really thought of there being people who look at their car as mostly the software.
- Thlom 11mo ago
  They are behind on software. At least my Tang EV isn't at the level of Tesla. Among the Chinese EV makers that sells significantly outside of China I think NIO and XPENG are the more software oriented ones.
  - pzmarzly 11mo ago
    Xiaomi is preparing to enter global EV market, and their software looks absolutely amazing. You can see it in MKBHD's video around 5 minutes mark https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI
    - rswail 11mo ago
      That was impressive. I liked the integration of add-on equipment with standardized integration with the software and car telemetry. Physical buttons for needed "eyes-free" use, the HUD looked great. Going to be an interesting decade, also interesting that its logical competitor is Apple as a hardware manufacturer.
technick 11mo ago
I would buy a BYD if the communist US government didn't ban them for being overly competitive. I rented one of these in Mexico last year and it was nice and affordable at 35k with the performance of a model S. https://www.byd.com/eu/electric-cars/seal https://www.byd.com/eu/electric-cars/seal
epolanski 11mo ago
I don't think many here realize how many Chinese EVs are sold globally. In Europe Volkswagen group dominates EV sales by far, but Chinese competitors are taking lots of the other spots. Jaecoo is one that recently has been spreading everywhere. It should worry plenty that Europeans are gonna buy Chinese cars with their huge amount of tariffs even when they end up priced similar to European or US offerings. I was recently surprised by an Italian YouTuber doing the "stans" tour of Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and these countries were ultra filled with Chinese EVs. There's no chance anything sells in any similar way. Not gonna lie, I was very jealous at the fact they could get such great cars in the $ 10/20 k range. I hate these nationalistic socialist tariffs. They only make local producers less competitive (as they are protected from competition) and at the same time erode your own exports.
unit149 11mo ago
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ErneX 11mo ago
I visited China recently for 3 weeks. They have really nice EVs, got to ride on a bunch of different brands/models just by using DiDi (equivalent to Uber there). They also have them on display on shopping malls, for example on Huawei and Xiaomi stores.
- adrr 11mo ago
  Why could Chinese consumer electronics companies successfully launch cars and Apple which spent billions on R&D on a car couldn’t?
  - seanmcdirmid 11mo ago
    Xiaomi makes HVACs and washing machines as well, so we aren't really comparing apples to apples here. I think chinese companies trend toward the conglomerate model of South Korea and Japan (e.g. Samsung used to make cars), which isn't really a thing in the US.
  - ErneX 11mo ago
    Honestly no idea but it’s impressive.
mugivarra69 11mo ago
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guid4 11mo ago
This will likely be downvoted, but my opinion is that the "success" of BYD (and other chinese EVs) in the West is a massive failure of policy. We don't allow Huwawei (etc), so why are we permitting Chinese cars? Money spent on BYD is money flowing out, eventually, to china, and not flowing into the local or near-local economy. Local garages are shutting due to lack of demand, forecourts are closing, sales jobs are closing, far less money is spent on maintenance (which supports local jobs and local supply chains), less consumables are replaced, factories are shutting, and the entire supply chain for these cars is outside the west. And all of this is being celebrated as "green" or low carbon - it is not, whatsoever, anything of the sort. And yet people seem to be buying these things in their droves, and then also complaining that economic times are tough. The painful truth is the west has the ability to replace these cars, but has looked on by as China came in and cleaned up, and didn't do anything about it. These cars should be subject to 1000% import tax, and eventually banned outright.
- corwinxpro 11mo ago
  > Local garages are shutting due to lack of demand I cannot book an MOT or regular appointment in "local garages" because all are booked for weeks ahead. I don't think your statemenet is anywhere near being true.
  - guid4 11mo ago
    Uh, why do you think that is? there's less garages, and they tend to employ MOT testers part-time nowadays.
- h1fra 11mo ago
  Might be right; however, why stop at cars? Almost everything you buy and consume is produced in China or elsewhere
elzbardico 11mo ago
The average believer in orthodox economics tends to forget that for all practical purposes customers and workers are the same entity. China understands that and they prioritize employment over consumption (of course, not having the printing press for the world’s reserve currency kinds of force their hands into it). America’s deindustrialization and financialization went too far. Consumption levels and waste are well out of any sustainable level. An adjustment would have to happen and Trump’s tariffs are just a desperate attempt to restore American Industry (with scarce chances of success). It is not like China is an enthusiastic adopter of free trade. They notoriously never played by the same rules in terms of market access, exchange rates, subsidies and trade barriers. It is utterly stupid to open your market to china without reciprocity, and this is what the west has been doing for decades making baking and investors richer while completely decimating what was once a thriving middle class. Even the racial issues in the current times are heavily linked to this. The fall of Detroit was felt disproportionately heavier by the blacks, Wall Street basically took the ladder from the feet of a rising blue collar middle class of blacks. I sincerely don’t give a fuck if we can’t buy cheap BYD cars.
drnick1 11mo ago
What do we know about onboard telematics for these cars? It's safe to assume that like all modern cars, extensive telemetry is stored and sent to the mothership (in China) and third parties. There is probably a way to mod the car to take it off the grid but I wouldn't even consider buying one before knowing it can be done reasonably painlessly.
- epolanski 11mo ago
  I don't think you can completely turn off telemetry, same for a Tesla or any other car with advanced features.
  - m01 11mo ago
    Tesla's privacy policy [1] suggests you can (by disabling connectivity all together), although it does break some features: > Opting out of vehicle data: Connectivity and performance is a core part of all Tesla vehicles and why some customers choose Tesla, allowing for advanced features and an enhanced driving experience. By default, Tesla provides this seamless experience while protecting your privacy. However, if you no longer wish for us to collect vehicle data or any other data from your Tesla vehicle, please contact us to deactivate connectivity. Please note, certain advanced features such as over-the-air updates, remote services, and interactivity with mobile applications and in-car features such as location search, Internet radio, voice commands, and web browser functionality rely on such connectivity. If you choose to opt out of vehicle data collection (with the exception of in-car Data Sharing preferences), we will not be able to know or notify you of issues applicable to your vehicle in real time. This may result in your vehicle suffering from reduced functionality, serious damage, or inoperability. I don't know if anyone has tried this. There are other EVs where it's easier, but it's not something typically featured in the main marketing material. Regarding eCall (emergency) functionality, "Under EU rules you have the right to use a third party service (TPS) eCall system in addition to the standard 112-based one" and "Any TPS eCall system must: [...] allow the owner of the vehicle to choose between the 112-based eCall and the TPS service" - which also means manufacturers can't force you to use "their" TPS that probably has different privacy trade-offs. [1] https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/legal/privacy https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/legal/privacy [2] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-emergencies/emergency-assistance-vehicles-ecall/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...
axus 11mo ago
Does this number include gasoline vehicles, too? To me the real story would be if carbon input/output goes down in the countries buying these cars.
i_love_retros 11mo ago
Great news. Hopefully more people will come to their senses and stop buying teslas.
innagadadavida 11mo ago
Do these Chinese cars last over 5 years? I remember that it was a long hard path for Kia and other Korean car companies to catch up to the Japanese car quality.

361 points by toomuchtodo 11mo ago

https://archive.today/pFuU6 https://archive.today/pFuU6

alecco 11mo ago

> Source: company statements Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots: https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-of-stockpiling-cars-illegally https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-australia-accused-... And BYD sits on a pile of debt they use to pay suppliers expecting ever-increasing sales (Evergrande business model). https://medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/a-deep-dive-into-byds-suspicious-financial-engineering-b47381f476e8 https://medium.com/@davidsehyeonbaek/a-deep-dive-into-byds-s...

AnotherGoodName 11mo ago
It seems that BYD are storing cars improperly but there’s nothing in the first link about financial engineering.
bryanlarsen 11mo ago
A car transport holds thousands of ships. Therefore requiring temporary storage for thousands of cars is normal. Even if you count the massive "hidden debt", BYD's debt load is still a small fraction of the big car makers, many of whom hold over $200 billion in debt.
- honeycrispy 11mo ago
  Which car makers? Ford, GMC, Chevrolet are all closer to $100 billion. Tesla holds $13b.
  - chollida1 11mo ago
    https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th...
    - thelastgallon 11mo ago
      Wow! Toyota $269B debt vs BYD $5.6B debt
      - woodpanel 11mo ago
        > its Net Debt/EBITDA was around 3.7x, indicating strong earnings cover for its debt TLDR: Toyota can afford it
      - bryanlarsen 11mo ago
        Both figures need to be qualified. 1. The BYD debt is alleged to be undercounted due to treating suppliers as lenders. 2. The Toyota debt includes a large chunk of lease financing. Which sort of doesn't count. But even if you adjust Toyota's down and BYD's up, Toyota's is still significantly larger.
baxtr 11mo ago
A friend of mine works in the chemical industry in Europe. One reason European producers are currently facing challenges is that Chinese producers are dumping chemicals into the global market at heavy discounts. The underlying cause of this is that the Chinese housing market, which previously absorbed almost all chemicals, has effectively stalled (Evergrande, et al.). I wonder whether we're observing a similar effect in the automobile industry as well.
- smallmancontrov 11mo ago
  Yes, but causality is backwards: the Chinese housing market stalled because China took the debt punch-bowl away from housing and gave it to the industrial sector. It's also worth mentioning that loan subsidies play a bigger role in Chinese capital markets: Chinese industry is largely capitalized with state debt rather than private debt/equity or public markets. Zooming out, as a response to Trump's 1st term tariffs China went on a big autarky push by redirecting its citizens' and companies' deposits into a loan bazooka for the industrial sector. We are now seeing the fruits of that. The big questions have to do with (true) profitability and (true) balance sheets: can the new industries service their debts well enough for the government to hold face?
- tokioyoyo 11mo ago
  Are they actually dumping, or extraction/refinement of materials is actually much cheaper in China, so it feels like dumping? Frankly, I don’t mind it, because western companies should also engage in this behaviour, if they can. Sell physical items for cheaper than it takes to produce them! They’re doing it with services and etc. anyways, might as well do it with physical products too.
  - themaninthedark 11mo ago
    How is extraction/refinement of materials much cheaper in China? I have been told they are reaching wage parity with the west, so not labor cost. Reuters agrees with op: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-started-before-tariffs-ecb-study-finds-2025-11-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-goods-dumping-st...
toomuchtodo 11mo ago
BYD owns their own fleet of car carriers for export, with the capacity to have ~30k vehicles shipping to other markets at any one time on their vessels. From this piece: > BYD Deliveries outside of China hit 1.05 million in 2025. The company has set a goal to expand overseas sales to between 1.5 million to 1.6 million units in 2026, according to a Citigroup Inc. report in November that cited a meeting with BYD management. Edit: The debt is irrelevant, China isn’t America. They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out, but still have a third of the world’s manufacturing capacity. Tesla exists on vibes, Chinese EV makers build, for example. jmyeet’s comment mostly nails this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46456020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424124 (citations) (global light vehicle TAM is ~90M units/year, and Chinese EV automakers are going to soak the market with their production capacity)
- faitswulff 11mo ago
  > They’ll nationalize and inflate away any institutional debt or wipe it out This is just the reverse, actually, China isn’t afraid to go so far as to jail CEOs. There is no such thing as too big to fail in China, and all the Chinese domestic companies know it. The bailout playbook is a western thing.
  - toomuchtodo 11mo ago
    China has been performing debt swaps with local governments to clean up their balance sheets [1], so used as an example. Agree with all of your comment. People make the mistake that China plays by artificial US capital market rules around profit and debt; they do not. They optimize for physical world success, not line go up. [1] Why China Is Hoping $1.6 Trillion Can Fix Its Hidden Debt Problem - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-economy-can-1-6-trillion-help-solve-xi-s-hidden-debt-problem https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-16/china-eco... | https://archive.today/HsaHV https://archive.today/HsaHV - April 16th, 2025
    - faitswulff 11mo ago
SapporoChris 11mo ago
regarding: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars in public parking lots" Sure you can post a speculative article, but this link is far more informative. https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-solved-99900 https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-car-park-mystery-s... It doesn't really appear to be anything of grand significance.
thesmtsolver2 11mo ago
Also their abysmal human rights record https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-ranking-electric-vehicle-industry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...
bigfatkitten 11mo ago
Dumping notwithstanding, they're still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...
bigfatkitten 11mo ago
Dumping notwithstanding, BYD is still selling cars into the Australian market in enormous numbers. Four of the top ten EVs sold this year are BYD, as are the top two PHEVs. If you account for the fact that Australian market Teslas are built in China, then China is producing 8 of the top 10 EVs. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-by-powertrain-so-far-this-year/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/australias-best-selling-cars-b...
- dalyons 11mo ago
  Which is direct evidence for what would happen if they were allowed to sell fairly into the US and Europe. The future of cars is Chinese, the US automakers can’t survive on protectionism forever
  - ehnto 11mo ago
    Not that I am for it, but why not? If no other cars enter the market, or they're forced to be uncompetitive, then what choice would consumers have?
nl 11mo ago
They have $5.6B in debt, around the same as Mazda and Polestar and roughly half Tesla's $13B. https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-the-highest-debt/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/automakers-with-th... And vast parking lots full of cars isn't dumping, it where they put them before sending them to dealers: > its parking areas are still brimming with new BYDs fresh from arriving at nearby Port Kembla ahead of their delivery to BYD dealers.
ulfw 11mo ago
You write and I quote: "Meanwhile they are dumping thousands of cars" Your own link to proof your quote says: "Hundreds of cars alleged to be illegally stored at a NSW fun park"

ZeroGravitas 11mo ago

Selling that many cars despite intense competition at home and trade barriers abroad seems the more natural way to express that story. They instead focused on how in evil communist China you need to continue to make better cars than rivals in order for your business to succeed and grow. What a strange system they have over there. If only they were capitalist like the US and being an incumbent connected to the regime was all you needed to keep extracting money from the population despite product stagnation.

djohnston 11mo ago
Two things can be true at once: 1. BYD has rapidly surpassed many western companies in terms of product quality / desirability 2. Chinese automotive industry is a strategic threat to Western military capabilities. If they are successful in usurping European / American auto manufacturers, it will be a death blow to an already hollowed-out industrial base that is critical to any sustained military engagement. So, yes, western companies have stagnated, and yes, the West needs to keep these dinosaurs around through subsidies (which Chinese manufacturers also receieve from their regime).
- blackjack_ 11mo ago
  If the US had a competent government they would react by pulling the same playbook as China to compete. Heavily subsidize and incentivize production of EVs by new companies to replace the rotten core of existing US automakers to produce price competitive and quality competitive vehicles, then let the old guard burn down. Subsidizing the rotten core of corrupt US automakers will not produce a new or functional industrial base. It will simply maintain the illusion of an industrial base until anything of importance needs done. But that’s basically the MO of any “mature” industry in the US.
  - rangestransform 11mo ago
    What you’re proposing is basically the EV subsidy, which got gutted because Americans got pissy about lifting a single finger to benefit anyone slightly more fortunate than themselves

padjo 11mo ago

I’ve been hearing about the rise of the Chinese car industry for 20 years, judging by the number of BYDs I’m now seeing it has finally happened.

melling 11mo ago
China is the largest car market in the world. Almost twice as large as the United States.
- culi 11mo ago
  China is also over 70% of the world's EV production
the_arun 11mo ago
Xiaomi is another maker. I saw a good review on Xiaomi SU7 - https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI by Marques Brownlee
justinhj 11mo ago
They also migrated 100s of millions of mopeds to electric bikes and shipped new ebikes over the last 10 years. That enormous scale no doubt fed directly to battery technology and assembly techniques that help with cars. Many Chinese don't own cars. (That's changing fast).
renewiltord 11mo ago
If you only travel to North America and Europe you’d never know but I went to South America and India and the former mostly had Chinese cars and the latter had big ads for a BYD MPV everywhere in Bangalore. So the Chinese car makers are popular outside the West. I drove a couple of Changan cars and they weren’t even as nice as my Subaru in terms of handling but they functioned well as cars.
- phatfish 11mo ago
  BYD is very much present in the UK (Telsa still seem the most common, but BYD are getting close), it must be the same in mainland Europe unless the EU is blocking them more aggressively. The Ford dealer down the road from me turned into a BYD service centre in the last couple of months.

AnotherGoodName 11mo ago

I think EU/NA residents are a little naive on how much Chinese cars are dominating the market. Chinese cars don't sell just in China. They utterly dominate globally outside of EU/NA where they face extreme tariffs. To the point where certain cars that you'd say were American (eg. Tesla) actually make most of their cars in China. Right now around the world in non EU/NA countries Tesla's a bit on the nose. All Tesla's in Australia are Chinese made regardless but it's then a choice of Chinese made Tesla vs Chinese made BYD and the BYDs are by all reports excellent cars. PS to Canadians: You could be paying ~50% less for the same car, even same model to same model by allowing Chinese made cars in and it'd help you screw over a country that threatened you.

embedding-shape 11mo ago
> They utterly dominate globally outside of EU/NA where they face extreme tariffs. Even inside of EU, seemingly BYD have reasonable prices, especially compared to their EU competitors. I'm an current Audi owner in Spain, who is currently very close of getting a BYD DM-i Touring, and compared to what I would get from Audi for the same price, BYD still offers a lot more in everything except "nice steering feeling", at least from what I've gathered from my test drives.
- eisa01 11mo ago
  That's because the car lobby only cared about electric vehicle tariffs, the petrol cars from China are tax free (There's also anti-dumping tariffs on electric bikes from China, I wonder if it's the same lobby...)
- t0mas88 11mo ago
  As a long term BMW driver instead of Audi I have the same. I'm swapping one of my two BMWs for a Model Y Premium. Also tried the BYD 7 but the Model Y felt nicer to drive and with more space. The BMW iX1 is disappointing in range, interior luxury and power. It's below an older 6 series (that I'm switching from), and much less powerful than a Model Y AWD. No idea why BMW thinks they can price it like they do. The other option was the BMW i5 Touring but it's more expensive and feels "old" already.

dhx 11mo ago

Compare at the same scale: Vantor Legion-2 image of the BYD plant in Zhengzhou as captured on 18 January 2025: https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=113.9361%2C34.3946%2C16 https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=113.9361%2... Vantor WorldView-3 image of the Tesla plant in Austin as captured on 31 January 2024: https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=-97.6189%2C30.2212%2C16 https://livingatlas.arcgis.com/wayback/#mapCenter=-97.6189%2...

toomuchtodo 11mo ago
The size of BYD's factory - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42228138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42228138 - November 2024 (615 comments)
- aeonfox 11mo ago
  No two ways to look at it. Electrification is the inevitable next step for mobility, and BYD are going to be top dog. It's pretty obvious why Tesla is 'diversifying'/divesting into robotics, but Asia has plenty of movers in that space too, not least BYD. SpaceX is the only moat Elon has left.
  - toomuchtodo 11mo ago
    China is currently performing test flights of reusable launch vehicles, so SpaceX moat is temporary. China just carried out its second reusable launch attempt in three weeks - https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/12/china-just-carried-out-its-second-reusable-launch-attempt-in-three-weeks/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/12/china-just-carried-out... - December 23rd, 2025 (Long March 12A)
    - tw1984 11mo ago
      > China is currently performing test flights of reusable launch vehicles, so SpaceX moat is temporary. extra fun - China is also spending lots of $$$ on electromagnetic rocket launch. China does bet on any particular technical path, it invests on all possible paths.

object-a 11mo ago

For anyone who has tried cars from both automakers, how does BYD compare to Tesla on similar trim vehicles?

AnotherGoodName 11mo ago
If you had to pay US/EU prices for a Tesla vs BYD you'd go with BYD no question. But the majority of Teslas are made in China and when put a Chinese made Tesla alongside a Chinese made BYD it's a coin flip. So as an Australian I'd roughly rate them the same with BYD high end matching Tesla's high end and BYD having a low end that Tesla doesn't compete with (the Atto which is ~USD $15000 for a small electric hatchback has no Tesla equivalent).
- mvdtnz 11mo ago
  BYD doesn't sell in USA.
  - SapporoChris 11mo ago
    Byd Auto Motor, Inc. 1800 S Figueroa St, Los Angeles, CA 90015 https://www.byd.international/city/los-angeles https://www.byd.international/city/los-angeles
    - linsomniac 11mo ago
      Ok, but "where the rubber meets the road", I've seen 0 BYDs in the wild in the US, including a recent 1,800 mile trip half way across the country. Earlier in 2025 I took a trip to Scotland and they had 2 dealerships I saw and I saw a couple of them on the roads.
    - jlarocco 11mo ago
      Leasing a building and having an english section on the website doesn't mean they're available here yet. The pricing page shows none available in the USA: https://www.byd.international/pricing https://www.byd.international/pricing

jmyeet 11mo ago

We are seeing the culmination of the 50+ China industrialization project at the samme time as the West's 50+ year financialization and deindustrialization project, all to concentrate even more wealth in the hands of the 0.01%. China is really the only country capable and willing to build infrastructure. The ban on selling lithography AND chips to China is massively backfiring. The chip ban in particular has created a captive market for Chinese chips. In 1945, American exceptionalists believed the USSR would take 20+ yars to copy the atomic bomb, if they could do it at all. It took 4 years. China will do the same thing with EUV in the coming years. Tesla is a trillion dollar company that was created entirely by government subsidies that only continues to exist because of the tariffs and import bans on BYD in the US and much of Europe. Additionally, Tesla is completely dependent on Chinese rare earth exports for its products. As an example of how China uses state power, a famine in the 20th century caused China to decide that food security was a national security interest. The availability of cheap, quality food is viewed as essential and the state intervenes to ensure that continues. Likewise for housing. Western companies seem increasingly focused on the top 10% because the bottom 90% have nothing left to eextract.

modeless 11mo ago
I've never seen a comment simultaneously be so right on some things and so wrong on others. > The ban on selling lithography AND chips to China is massively backfiring Agreed. We will be screwed once China surpasses us in chip fabs, and they will. The idea that we can get a "durable advantage" by reaching AGI a few years before China is ridiculous. Using that to justify bans that only slow them down a few years at the cost of creating a chip fab juggernaut later is folly. > Tesla is a trillion dollar company that was created entirely by government subsidies that only continues to exist because of the tariffs Tesla is not supported by subsidies significantly more than any other car company and less than many including BYD obviously. They also compete directly with BYD without tariff protection worldwide and in China and do well. They are worth a trillion dollars because of the potential of their self-driving software which is far ahead of any other car company's including those in China. > Tesla is completely dependent on Chinese rare earth exports for its products. Tesla has rare earth free alternatives. There is no urgent need for them right now but they can switch if necessary.

asa400 11mo ago

It's like the 1970s all over again with how the US Big 3 makers are facing an existential threat held at bay only by protectionism. They're going to have to learn to compete yet again.

pm90 11mo ago
Did they ever learn to compete then? The only thing that protected them then was that Japan was a US “ally” and could be “persuaded” to go along with protectionism. China has no such need. I would argue that the 70s were a trial run for whats happening today but instead of becoming more competitive the automakers focused on lobbying for Government help; a playbook that won’t help them today. And even more stupidly, traditional American carmarkers are discontinuing EV models and shutting down factories JUST when they finally had an edge over their japanese competitors.
- Recurecur 11mo ago
  Outside the purely electric vehicles (where I believe Tesla competes very well, where is BYD at with FSD?), is there a Chinese equivalent to: - The upcoming EREV (mostly electric extended range hybrid) F-150 truck? This is expected to have ~700 mile range, and of course no charging hassles. It’s main advantage over the now defunct Lightning will be towing range. - The Chevy Corvette Stingray? Say what you want, but the high end ICE sports cars have an appeal of their own… I believe the USA still has an edge in some areas of the market.
  - dzonga 11mo ago
    American car manufacturers don't play to their strengths e.g affordable sports cars - Chevy Corvette Stingray | Mustang GT how many are sold in foreign markets the Bronco could make a killing in Africa but is it sold there NO. I understand here in the states the 4runner has no competition - yet ford wants to kill it using the Bronco. Why not use the Bronco to kill the land cruiser in markets where people default to a Land Cruiser / Fortuner and force Toyota to play defense. E.g in Africa certain markets Ford started selling the Ford Ranger Raptor and they're making a killing - and actually starting to cause Toyota to compete and not bring their usual stale cars. However Chinese have brought their A-game too - Tank 300, BYD Shark etc

gtirloni 11mo ago

I see electric/hybrid BYD cars more and more every day. Meanwhile, US/EU automakers are still struggling to offer anything barely competitive.

TulliusCicero 11mo ago
I know that "laziness" is kind of a generic/useless criticism to throw at a company or sector, but there really is that vibe for EVs in the West.
- raverbashing 11mo ago
  I really wonder what are the parts where BYD gets its competitiveness from vs where it might be behind Software explains a lot, dumping explains some of it but it might not be all of it
  - timbit42 11mo ago
    Japanese engineers disassembled a BYD vehicle said BYD's E-Axle drive system was so advanced it would take them 10 years to replicate it. BYD's blade batteries are also a major competitive advantage.
  - tonfa 11mo ago
    Isn't China at the forefront of battery technology (and BYD was initially a battery company).
- ZeroGravitas 11mo ago
  Not angering the oligarchs who profit from oil appears to be the root cause. This then flows downstream to inconsistent and patchwork government support for the transition to EVs. The short term incentives aren't all properly aligned for car makers to fully commit to build EVs and support the supply chain to do that.
  - Tiktaalik 11mo ago
    Decades from now we're going to look at the oil patch lobbyists as the villains that killed countless jobs in NA and enabled China to take over whole industries. You had some politicians like Justin Trudeau that tried to create a frame work that would guide and advantage capital toward investing in innovative green technology and future jobs, but then politicians saw the advantage in politicizing and opposing everything and they tore this all down. Now China has continued to move ahead meanwhile NA remains at square one with increasingly backward technology, with no incentive to change. It's going to get really bad!

malshe 11mo ago

I bought BYD stock in 2025 before split in the hope that their market dominance will translate to great returns. The stock has pretty consistently traded down since then. Meanwhile Tesla stock soared purely on the air coming out of Elon’s mouth.

hn_throwaway_99 11mo ago
"The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent." But as another comment pointed out, they have tons of debt, and TFA states that their "revised" target was revised downward, meaning earlier stock valuations were priced for higher sales.
omarforgotpwd 11mo ago
[flagged]
- lawlessone 11mo ago
  Do you own stock in them? it's the only thing you ever comment about.
  - sebmellen 11mo ago
    Perhaps it’s Elon’s HN account!
    - lawlessone 11mo ago
      haha, i wondered, but it's too friendly to be him
dzhiurgis 11mo ago
Chinese stocks don’t seem to follow any reality either. BYD is basically flat over 5 years.
- Tiktaalik 11mo ago

thesmtsolver2 11mo ago

BYD ranks at the bottom for human rights. But interestingly, BYD’s proponents seem to brush it away. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-ranking-electric-vehicle-industry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...

eunos 11mo ago
Never ever I saw people in real life making purchasing decision based on "human rights"
- why-o-why 11mo ago
  Hello. I'm one. AMA.
  - Novosell 11mo ago
    What phone do you use? If not a Fairphone, why not?
    - why-o-why 11mo ago
      Excellent! This discussion will proceed as follows: you will present a laundry list of examples, and if I answer NO to any of them, you win. It will play out as the illustration of the fallacy of all or nothing: if I am not 100% pure, then I am 100% wrong. What you will fail to understand, is that in the real world "doing the best one can" still has an impact. So I might not answer 100% all of your questions, but it doesn't mean my decisions don't have any impact. The absurdity can be illustrated by rewording: "if we can't prevent all crime, we should stop enforcing it", or "if you can't feed all the hungry children, we shouldn't bother feeding any". Unfortunately for you, I will not play your purity test game so that you can feel smug, but I will say that I do my best and I pay attention, and whenever feasible I vote with my wallet to buy from or invest in companies with stated goals that align with human rights, and I will feel disappointment over not making the "best possible choice" at every opportunity, but that will position me to do better next time. Because perfection is the enemy of progress.

whatever1 11mo ago

China has all this manufacturing capacity, and no market to sell. Really the only option they have is to swap the products to military ones so that they can create the global markets they need. It’s gonna be a bumpy decade.

dalyons 11mo ago
Hrm? They can and are selling to the rest of the world (except NA and Europe)
- stavros 11mo ago
  They're selling in Europe, plenty of BYD cars in Greece.
  - dalyons 11mo ago
    Gas or ev? I thought the EVs were tariffed high
    - bryanlarsen 11mo ago
      Is 17% high?
      - dalyons 11mo ago
        I was under the impression that it was %30+, guess I’m wrong
        bryanlarsen 11mo ago
        It varies by company. The companies that participated in the audit generally got hit with a 17% tariff, the ones that didn't, 34%. (oversimplified). Either way I phrased my original comment as a question as I'm not sure whether to consider 17% or 34% as "high". It depends on perspective. Both are painful, but neither are high enough to completely kill trade, like 100%+ tariffs do.

haxtormoogle 11mo ago

The number of BYD on fire videos, and examples where the tires simply fall off because they don't use enough metal in the suspension. Makes me scared to be anywhere near one of their vehicles. please keep them out of the USA for safety sake. That's 4.6M state sponsored vehicles that should not be on the road. Don't forget the chinese gov'ts ability to lock you out from driving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzbq-Q_oTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzbq-Q_oTc

SkyeCA 11mo ago
> and examples where the tires simply fall off because they don't use enough metal in the suspension As opposed to using too much metal in the airbags of our cars ;) > Don't forget the chinese gov'ts ability to lock you out from driving. I remain less scared of a foreign government than I do of my government that has effectively total control over my life.
deleted 11mo ago
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martinpw 11mo ago
> please keep them out of the USA for safety sake. That's 4.6M state sponsored vehicles that should not be on the road. BYD vehicles are sold in Europe where they have to meet safety requirements that are arguably more stringent than in the US.

amelius 11mo ago

I'm not choosing sides here but if telecom equipment from e.g. HuaWei is not allowed on US/EU markets because of national security concerns, then should we allow cars?

syntaxing 11mo ago
We allow everything else from iPhone to your microwave. National security seems awfully like a veil for regulatory capture
sleepyguy 11mo ago
This is a national security concern but in a different way. It's about the de-industrialization of America. Palmer Lucky talks about this and how China's goal is to make sure America can't build anything. Once that happens we can never win a war against them.
- energy123 11mo ago
  The combination of minimum wage and immigration restrictions is the main driver of that. If you could have Chinese workers on Chinese wages in American factories none of this would have happened. But that's not allowed.
  - SXX 11mo ago
    To build things you also need a lot of people with education, know how and experience. You cant just bring low-wage workforce and expect to compete with China. Let alone that to provide same quality of living to average chinese worker as they have in China their salary in US will have to grow 5-6 times.
    - energy123 11mo ago
      > Let alone that to provide same quality of living to average chinese worker as they have in China their salary in US will have to grow 5-6 times. That's Baumol's Cost Disease, a symptom of not allowing massive amounts of workers in. The solution is to let them in, something like how UAE or Hong Kong does it but even more. Most people don't want to do that. That's a choice they made, but they must live with the consequences and stop complaining. > To build things you also need a lot of people with education, know how and experience. Let those people in too as guest workers. There's millions of people that know how to build housing, do surgery, and so on, but they're not allowed to do it.

ttul 11mo ago

We don’t see BYD cars in the US or Canada very much yet because of tariffs. But head down to Mexico and they’re everywhere. The Chinese EV automakers are crushing it.

petesergeant 11mo ago
Here in Dubai too. Always rather the Careem driver turns up in a BYD than a Tesla.
eru 11mo ago
BYD is also very popular in Singapore. Single most bought car brand at the moment, I think. Their flagship show room has great beer and good food, too.
- embedding-shape 11mo ago
  When I first moved to Spain, I was surprised beer was available in McDonalds, and that people commonly had beer with lunch. But not even here do we have beer available in car show rooms, that seems like the slightly wrong place for that, especially considering how strict Singapore seems from the outside.
  - rswail 11mo ago
    25 years ago I was on a project that was based out of offices next to a BMW factory, so we got canteen privileges, and the food was awesome, and beer was available as one of the beverages. This was at a car plant for people working in manufacturing.
    - davidw 11mo ago
      At the university canteens/cafeterias in Italy they had wine and beer on tap next to the soda. It wasn't very good, but I was amazed the first time I just saw the tap there in the middle of the cafeteria where anyone could just go refill when they wanted.
  - 11mo ago

srameshc 11mo ago

This is certainly alarming for US auto manufacturers. Tesla is the only successful EV car company which is able to somewhat compete with BYD, but for many it is hardly an option because of it's leadership.

ethagnawl 11mo ago
That's to say nothing of the cost. Assuming there were no extraordinary tarrifs on China/BYD, the entry-level offering would be in the $10K range which is about 1/4 the cost of a base Tesla Model 3.

yanhangyhy 11mo ago

meanwhile my BYD stock didn't go up... Hope 2026 this will change. For China, this is ultimately a good thing. BYD employs a large number of workers and has factories in many developing countries such as Brazil and Central Asia..., creating numerous job opportunities. Many of BYD's factories in China are located around non-first-tier cities, where workers may earn only around 5,000 to 6,000 yuan. However, considering China's extremely low cost of living and deflation, this salary is sufficient to support a family and drive more consumption in the market. The factory in zhengzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyCTwhdqOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyCTwhdqOhs zhengzhou is also famous for produce iphone before..

meindnoch 11mo ago
Implessive!
maximus-decimus 11mo ago
The stock market is forward looking. If people already expected that BYD would sell 4.6M vehicles in 2025, it was already accounted for in the stock valuation. For the stock to go up in price, they need to do even better than people expect.

deleted 11mo ago

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MrVitaliy 11mo ago

What's facinating to me is the lack of software comparison in comments. Lots of comments where people compare driving noise, material quality, price to Tesla and other brands. Sure it's important to some, but its like comparing apple vs android watch by how the leather strap feels on each device. Anyone has experience with BYD over-the-air-updates? Do they release updates often? Are there any serious bugs like with Lucid air? How does the software compare to Tesla?

timeon 11mo ago
It is hard to compare since I've never been in Tesla vehicle - because they are not making buses.
ehnto 11mo ago
Although I agree that software is an important aspect, a car mostly exists in the real and physical experience of the vehicle to me. The software situation is going to be the least of your average persons concerns I would have thought. Interesting point of view to consider however, I hadn't really thought of there being people who look at their car as mostly the software.
Thlom 11mo ago
They are behind on software. At least my Tang EV isn't at the level of Tesla. Among the Chinese EV makers that sells significantly outside of China I think NIO and XPENG are the more software oriented ones.
- pzmarzly 11mo ago
  Xiaomi is preparing to enter global EV market, and their software looks absolutely amazing. You can see it in MKBHD's video around 5 minutes mark https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI
  - rswail 11mo ago
    That was impressive. I liked the integration of add-on equipment with standardized integration with the software and car telemetry. Physical buttons for needed "eyes-free" use, the HUD looked great. Going to be an interesting decade, also interesting that its logical competitor is Apple as a hardware manufacturer.

technick 11mo ago

I would buy a BYD if the communist US government didn't ban them for being overly competitive. I rented one of these in Mexico last year and it was nice and affordable at 35k with the performance of a model S. https://www.byd.com/eu/electric-cars/seal https://www.byd.com/eu/electric-cars/seal

epolanski 11mo ago

I don't think many here realize how many Chinese EVs are sold globally. In Europe Volkswagen group dominates EV sales by far, but Chinese competitors are taking lots of the other spots. Jaecoo is one that recently has been spreading everywhere. It should worry plenty that Europeans are gonna buy Chinese cars with their huge amount of tariffs even when they end up priced similar to European or US offerings. I was recently surprised by an Italian YouTuber doing the "stans" tour of Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and these countries were ultra filled with Chinese EVs. There's no chance anything sells in any similar way. Not gonna lie, I was very jealous at the fact they could get such great cars in the $ 10/20 k range. I hate these nationalistic socialist tariffs. They only make local producers less competitive (as they are protected from competition) and at the same time erode your own exports.

unit149 11mo ago

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ErneX 11mo ago

I visited China recently for 3 weeks. They have really nice EVs, got to ride on a bunch of different brands/models just by using DiDi (equivalent to Uber there). They also have them on display on shopping malls, for example on Huawei and Xiaomi stores.

adrr 11mo ago
Why could Chinese consumer electronics companies successfully launch cars and Apple which spent billions on R&D on a car couldn’t?
- seanmcdirmid 11mo ago
  Xiaomi makes HVACs and washing machines as well, so we aren't really comparing apples to apples here. I think chinese companies trend toward the conglomerate model of South Korea and Japan (e.g. Samsung used to make cars), which isn't really a thing in the US.
- ErneX 11mo ago
  Honestly no idea but it’s impressive.

mugivarra69 11mo ago

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guid4 11mo ago

This will likely be downvoted, but my opinion is that the "success" of BYD (and other chinese EVs) in the West is a massive failure of policy. We don't allow Huwawei (etc), so why are we permitting Chinese cars? Money spent on BYD is money flowing out, eventually, to china, and not flowing into the local or near-local economy. Local garages are shutting due to lack of demand, forecourts are closing, sales jobs are closing, far less money is spent on maintenance (which supports local jobs and local supply chains), less consumables are replaced, factories are shutting, and the entire supply chain for these cars is outside the west. And all of this is being celebrated as "green" or low carbon - it is not, whatsoever, anything of the sort. And yet people seem to be buying these things in their droves, and then also complaining that economic times are tough. The painful truth is the west has the ability to replace these cars, but has looked on by as China came in and cleaned up, and didn't do anything about it. These cars should be subject to 1000% import tax, and eventually banned outright.

corwinxpro 11mo ago
> Local garages are shutting due to lack of demand I cannot book an MOT or regular appointment in "local garages" because all are booked for weeks ahead. I don't think your statemenet is anywhere near being true.
- guid4 11mo ago
  Uh, why do you think that is? there's less garages, and they tend to employ MOT testers part-time nowadays.
h1fra 11mo ago
Might be right; however, why stop at cars? Almost everything you buy and consume is produced in China or elsewhere

elzbardico 11mo ago

The average believer in orthodox economics tends to forget that for all practical purposes customers and workers are the same entity. China understands that and they prioritize employment over consumption (of course, not having the printing press for the world’s reserve currency kinds of force their hands into it). America’s deindustrialization and financialization went too far. Consumption levels and waste are well out of any sustainable level. An adjustment would have to happen and Trump’s tariffs are just a desperate attempt to restore American Industry (with scarce chances of success). It is not like China is an enthusiastic adopter of free trade. They notoriously never played by the same rules in terms of market access, exchange rates, subsidies and trade barriers. It is utterly stupid to open your market to china without reciprocity, and this is what the west has been doing for decades making baking and investors richer while completely decimating what was once a thriving middle class. Even the racial issues in the current times are heavily linked to this. The fall of Detroit was felt disproportionately heavier by the blacks, Wall Street basically took the ladder from the feet of a rising blue collar middle class of blacks. I sincerely don’t give a fuck if we can’t buy cheap BYD cars.

drnick1 11mo ago

What do we know about onboard telematics for these cars? It's safe to assume that like all modern cars, extensive telemetry is stored and sent to the mothership (in China) and third parties. There is probably a way to mod the car to take it off the grid but I wouldn't even consider buying one before knowing it can be done reasonably painlessly.

epolanski 11mo ago
I don't think you can completely turn off telemetry, same for a Tesla or any other car with advanced features.
- m01 11mo ago
  Tesla's privacy policy [1] suggests you can (by disabling connectivity all together), although it does break some features: > Opting out of vehicle data: Connectivity and performance is a core part of all Tesla vehicles and why some customers choose Tesla, allowing for advanced features and an enhanced driving experience. By default, Tesla provides this seamless experience while protecting your privacy. However, if you no longer wish for us to collect vehicle data or any other data from your Tesla vehicle, please contact us to deactivate connectivity. Please note, certain advanced features such as over-the-air updates, remote services, and interactivity with mobile applications and in-car features such as location search, Internet radio, voice commands, and web browser functionality rely on such connectivity. If you choose to opt out of vehicle data collection (with the exception of in-car Data Sharing preferences), we will not be able to know or notify you of issues applicable to your vehicle in real time. This may result in your vehicle suffering from reduced functionality, serious damage, or inoperability. I don't know if anyone has tried this. There are other EVs where it's easier, but it's not something typically featured in the main marketing material. Regarding eCall (emergency) functionality, "Under EU rules you have the right to use a third party service (TPS) eCall system in addition to the standard 112-based one" and "Any TPS eCall system must: [...] allow the owner of the vehicle to choose between the 112-based eCall and the TPS service" - which also means manufacturers can't force you to use "their" TPS that probably has different privacy trade-offs. [1] https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/legal/privacy https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/legal/privacy [2] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-emergencies/emergency-assistance-vehicles-ecall/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...

axus 11mo ago

Does this number include gasoline vehicles, too? To me the real story would be if carbon input/output goes down in the countries buying these cars.

i_love_retros 11mo ago

Great news. Hopefully more people will come to their senses and stop buying teslas.

innagadadavida 11mo ago

Do these Chinese cars last over 5 years? I remember that it was a long hard path for Kia and other Korean car companies to catch up to the Japanese car quality.