21 ms·

A layoff fundamentally changed how I perceive work

• thomond 2y ago
  The first layoff is always the worst. You'll treat future gigs as transactional and be better for it. The younger you're laid off the sooner you'll learn this.
  • magicstefanos 2y ago
    I'm so grateful I was laid off just 2 years into my first software gig out of school. I graduated, worked my ass off at a startup, and theeeen covid! It hurt but that was a permanent wisdom upgrade.
  • shaftway 2y ago
    You forget over time, and obligations grow. My first layoff was rough. It was in '00 and I was 21, so I didn't have too many obligations. My second layoff was in '23 and I was 44 with kids and a mortgage. It hit me a lot harder. My third was in '24, but I had learned my lessons and had positioned myself better, so I wasn't as badly affected.
• inatreecrown2 2y ago
  You'll never be the same again regardless. Food for thought.
• brailsafe 2y ago
  Amazing job off capturing nearly word for word what I've said to people and thought before, during, and after being laid off. The signs, symptoms, and treatment; perfect. To someone who's never experienced it, it would seem myopic, but it's not, it's just the way it is, do not give more to your company than you can control the outcome of having done so. You don't get to decide that you're not laid off, and the only thing, as sad as it is, that you should be doing, is exactly what you're paid for.
  • szundi 2y ago
    While being true, this do exactly what you're paid for is so dystopian.
    • coldpie 2y ago
      It is? That's a weird position to me. If I go to a store and pay $10 for a sandwich, I don't call it dystopian when I don't get two sandwiches. Similarly, if my working agreement is $X wage for 40 hours of work per week, I don't give them 60 hours, because we agreed on 40. What is dystopian about agreeing to terms and then executing on the agreed terms? That's just how exchanging money for goods & services works.
  • Tainnor 2y ago
    It's not "exactly the way it is" everywhere, though. I've worked at companies that, whenever they laid someone off, they were honest and upfront about it without playing any psychological tricks. Not every company has to be this devoid of soul.
    • brailsafe 2y ago
      That's true, I've been directly laid off and fired without cause without tricks, but the salient point to me is that usually it's a futile and burnout-inducing mission to try and put in extra effort to attempt to avoid the impending outcome. A manager at any company could just be annoyed with how you responded to a question one time and it'll be burned into their brain to get rid of you. In retrospect, although there have been valid moments where my performance has suffered, it's rare for that to be the cause imo, especially if they really don't know what you do anyway. You could think you're a crucial contributor, and all it takes is oversleeping on the wrong day to screw you permanently.
• andrewstuart 2y ago
  After being laid off a few times you start to understand it's all just a show - theater. The young employees believe it entirely because they have never known any different. The more experienced become more realistic about the way the entire system works.
  • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
    Oh, I don't know. In my current and previous job I was, frankly, amazed at the ronin-like attitude openly expressed by those new, young hires. I was nowhere near this radicalized, when I started my first 'real' job. Management is in for a rather rude awakening.
• ForHackernews 2y ago
  I'm sympathetic but this person comes across as young and (previously) naive. I suppose everyone has to learn the company is not their friend someday.
  • oldpersonintx 2y ago
    yeah this is just someone losing their work virginity the real pro-level insight is understanding that the people left behind are often in a worse position - inertia keeps them locked into a dying company
• lm28469 2y ago
  That's what happened during my first job almost 10 years ago. "we're different than other companies, we're family", "business is always personal", yadda yadda Then one day out of nowhere "hey btw we're not going to renew your contract, we're nice so we give you an extra 10 days of vacation don't bother coming back tomorrow, oh and all your accesses have been revoked". At least I got the reality check right away, some people get that way down the line when their whole persona has already been built around their job
  • 0xEF 2y ago
    I think one has some deeper issues to tackle if one is basing their whole persona around their job. This is not a healthy thing to do, regardless of layoffs.
    • pjc50 2y ago
      Difficult to avoid when there's lots of culture encouraging it, and especially once your hours are long enough that the rest of your life gets eroded.
      • lm28469 2y ago
        At some point there is a kind of sunk cost fallacy entering the game ("I can't reinvent my ego/persona now, I'm 40 it's too late"), and maybe some form of addiction ("I love my job and I would be bored without it") I know people who could easily retire or at least get a much chiller job but they stay in their high responsibility positions, complaining about it everyday, stressing them to the point of having physical consequences.
      • FridgeSeal 2y ago
        We also start, or encourage starting work quite early on in our lives, and so it naturally grabs a place in people’s existence in their formative years as “a thing that they do”. Is it any surprise then, that it naturally ends up becoming at least a non-trivial part of people’s sense-of-self?
• ZephyrBlu 2y ago
  Really enjoyed reading this, but I will say that the particular circumstances here are a bit rare. Germany got completely gutted in this layoff. Almost everyone employed in Germany was cut. I know a Senior Staff Engineer from Germany who was laid off then re-hired.
  • pavlov 2y ago
    It’s not rare for entire business units or country offices to get shut down. That’s the easiest way to do a layoff because it’s mostly isolated from the rest of the company. Executives can meet most of their layoff target without having to get into the weeds of evaluating individual performance. Often some functions are moved or merged into another unit, and that’s the escape hatch for the few people someone really wants to save.
    • ZephyrBlu 2y ago
      It wasn't like that in this case. Rumours were it was because people in Germany were thinking of unionizing.
      • Tainnor 2y ago
        If that were true, then I hope the laid-off people kept a paper trail because there's actual laws protecting them in such a case.
      • shafyy 2y ago
        This would not suprise me at all, since Tobi Lütke is vocally against unions.
• asim 2y ago
  I remember the zoom call when a person from HR was there. Instantly you know.
• arnaudsm 2y ago
  Many companies could be so much more efficient if they were actually meritocratic.
  • CharlieDigital 2y ago
    It's very hard to measure this accurately at scale. If you create metrics, they will be gamed. The people that succeed, then, are not necessarily those with the most merit, but those who are best at manipulating their metrics.
    • anilakar 2y ago
      We started measuring progress this month by measuring how many percent of last week's planned tasks were completed, and it's already showing. Everyone is reporting 100 % which means they're probably doing three days worth of work in one work week to keep the number up. One product owner showed 12 tasks out of 57 being completed and still gave out a 100 per cent completion rate because he retroactively rated those 12 as critical and the rest as unimportant.
• shashanoid 2y ago
  Damn I was part of may the 4th lay off from Shopify. They locked me out instantly from my crucial immigration related document on my work laptop, and there was no help whatsoever. Very ugly. Still remember.
  • zelphirkalt 2y ago
    Name and shame, good. Only when we name the perpetrators, we can help others avoid bad employers, of which there are way to many already.
  • 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
    Was it on your work laptop for a reason? Good reminder, never mix work and personal. Or at the very least maybe use a cloud service or a thumb drive.
    • Etheryte 2y ago
      In many countries, a number of visas are employer bound or sponsored, so there's a wide array of reasons why some relevant documents might live in the corporate sphere. Depending on policy, you might not be allowed to transfer it to a personal device. There are often many more documents to a visa than just the visa itself.
      • another-dave 2y ago
        > Depending on policy, you might not be allowed to transfer it to a personal device. That's true, but it makes it all the more reason that you want to get that squared off ASAP while you have infinite access to HR/a manager to help you rather than scrambling to try and do it while the clock is ticking on access to your machine/the building etc.
      • 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
        Even if it was a sponsorship, I find it strange that you can’t have copies of the immigration docs so that you can at least explain to immigration what’s going on. I’d imagine there is case number or something that you could keep? Otherwise what happens? You can’t even explain or prove your current situation? Seems draconian.
• black_13 2y ago
  [dead]
• yumed15 2y ago
  I've been part of layoffs twice (with around 8 years in the workforce by now) and yes, I realised the harsh truth that going above and beyond, putting in the soul and long hours is not worth it. No one cares in the long term, you're just a number in the spreadsheet at the end of the day. But the thing is, I like what I'm working on, I like letting my passion dictate my actions. I want to go home at the end of the day and be proud of what I have accomplished. But it's not worth putting in that effort for a company that treats you like any other resource. So I'm starting to become one of those soulless employees. You can call it quiet quitting or whatever. And it's slowly killing my spark. I started working on my own projects to keep that spark alive. But 2h every day is not enough to build something that's worth it.
  • cyberpunk 2y ago
    Yep I’m in exactly the same boat. I think I’ve largely decided that tech is just a job now; my motivation to code outside of work was tied to also somehow enjoying doing it at work and now I don’t anymore I also stopped doing it for fun. So I’ve replaced advent of code with various other stuff, music, woodworking, books, the great outdoors and while my life is less rich in technology it’s becoming much fuller in other ways. I think I prefer it this way.
    • secondcoming 2y ago
      For me, coding outside of work becomes unsustainable as you age. It's not that you can't, it's because you realise there's more to life than staring at a computer screen. I love coding, but it's also good to go outside sometimes.
      • CharlieDigital 2y ago
        For me, there was a rebound. Recent years (40's) I've been on a building spree of sorts for my own projects[0] I'm my 30's, a lot of energy went into home improvement projects, establishing a garden, and young kids. Now I find a lot of time and energy left for my own passion projects. [0] https://turas.app https://turas.app and https://coderev.app https://coderev.app
• pjc50 2y ago
  It's been 20+ years since I was laid off when the first internet boom collapsed. I got a decent settlement, spent a while experimenting with self employment, and got another interesting full-time job which lasted for years. I'd rate the experience as significantly less traumatic than my first relationship breakup. But yes, the first time you experience redundancies regardless of whether you're made redundant or survive is definitely an eye-opener. It's like those financial disclaimers "the value of your investment may go down as well as up". There may be very little warning. It may even happen at a time that's very bad for you personally. And it does break trust among the company.
• Jean-Papoulos 2y ago
  I was thinking that it seems strange to fire a 10x dev that has regular one-on-one meetings with a VP. OP could have contacted said VP and outlined that he was worth keeping, until I got to this line : >the law enforces a social scoring system to determine who is affected, prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees This is the reason OP got laid off, if all he says about his high performance is true. The good old positive discrimination making unintended victims. Germany just lost a 10x dev's productivity for this. While I agree with the spirit of the law and don't have the details of this case, it is quite the sad situation for everyone involved.
  • Tainnor 2y ago
    At no point does the law force a company to fire a high performer. The company can literally just fire one fewer person - if the employee really is 10x and if the company has its shit together, that's what would happen.
  • inglor_cz 2y ago
    Let us face it, the European welfare model is a blind alley. No one in the world is going to copy this from us again, now that it is clear that it makes us a) uncompetitive - taxes too high, too much protection for people who might not merit it; b) less likely to start new businesses - in theory, you can have a great welfare system and a great atmosphere for enterpreneurship, but in practice, the former will usually stifle the latter, as the "eat the rich" types will dominate the discourse; c) extremely vulnerable to the aging problem. Too many pensioners, not enough kids, not enough highly qualified migrants who have zero reason to subject themselves to lower compensation, higher taxation and, on the top of all, interaction with bureacracy that insists on the local language. OTOH hardly literate people from Afghanistan or Niger don't mind any of that; the German / Dutch / Swedish welfare system will take care of them even if they do nothing and/or immerse themselves in the black market. IDK how to get out of this pickle, the local population is addicted to high welfare spending and other onerous protections like to crack and won't vote against it, even though it is becoming clear that as we fall more and more behind the US, we won't be able to afford a system like that. Robust welfare states can be only carried by robust economies and a lot of young workers. Those conditions existed in the 1960s or 1970s, and our current systems are downstream from that, but the foundation is eroding with every passing year. The final collapse will be pretty ugly, something like Argentina, but full of 70 y.o. paupers. Weaker spots in the EU already have a huge problem providing healthcare to the elderly, or even anyone. On paper, it is an universal right, but in reality, there simply aren't enough doctors to carry this obligation out. The Czech Republic is somewhere in the middle, nowhere near as bad as rural Bulgaria, but try finding a dentist who accepts insurance patients outside the major cities like Brno and Prague. That will be an exercise in the impossible.
• MeruMeru 2y ago
  Strongly agree with the author. I was laid off two years ago, and I am experiencing the same feelings he is describing: I no longer want to give my 100%, I no longer overcommit. I do the minimum required and feel emotionally detached from the company and my colleagues. It's a waste that so many individual contributors who, as the author said, had good performance and were close to the users went through a laid off. Now a new generation of previously high achievers work force will get back in the market and no longer use all their potential for their job. Like it wasn't the fault of the new company that hired me, that now I do the bare minimum, they won't see the full potential I gave before. And I, I cannot prevent it. My work ethics and motivation died after the lay off.
  • secondcoming 2y ago
    It's disappointing that you feel detached from your colleagues. They're in the same boat as you. Also, increasing your network doesn't hurt. There's a risk in being known as the quiet or moody guy who doesn't interact with anyone. It might make you enjoy your work more too.
    • MeruMeru 2y ago
      Partially agree. I still network, and actually found my current job thanks to my network. I still interact with ma colleagues, help them, socialize. But I try to keep some emotional distance. When I got laid off, my colleagues were also my close friends, so on top of the laid off turmoil I was living, I was sad I would no longer work with them.
  • qwe----3 2y ago
    Well, if this generation is all like you then they’ll be replaced by the next generation of hungry graduates
    • n_ary 2y ago
      Hmm… not really, bars are high, no one is hiring fresh graduates anymore, and new generation is more detached with better sense of real world and focus on work-life balance and more personal growth, unlike previous generation who usually tied their identity to their work and gave their 500% for peanuts and glory(always fake and meaningless).
• Tainnor 2y ago
  I was working for a German startup that had been acquired by a big American company. The relationship between my team and the big corp was strained from the start - we felt that they simply didn't understand what we did and didn't give us the liberty to decide how best to do things. They also didn't seem very mindful of time zone differences or understanding of German worker protection laws. When they laid off the other team that was working in our office (on an entirely different product), they of course assured us that we were safe - they believed in our product, yadda yadda. Then at some point, things started getting weird - a job position was cancelled right before we were going to offer the candidate the job. A trip to HQ was cancelled last minute. An external team was getting increasingly involved. About a year after the other team had been fired, the second highest ranking executive was visiting our office, something he would do once in a while. When the visit was announced, we were joking that "if he brings Pattie from HR, they'll lay us off". I got the message from my coworker on my way to work: "Pattie is here." The speech the executive gave us was the stupidest thing I've ever heard somebody say to me. He literally said: "In a couple of years, you will look at this as a big opportunity." We just rolled our eyes at each other. When he left the room, we picked up the remotes and started playing stickman against each other. It was the only thing that seemed appropriate. We had a very nice office and so we were looking forward to be able to spend our notice period together, playing video games, making music and doing the bare minimum in terms of handover duties. Unfortunately, covid happened at right that time and our time together was dramatically cut short, which I still consider a tragedy. One woman in our team was pregnant and fought the settlement they were offering us. As far as I know, they had to keep her on for longer and she eventually negotiated a better deal - pregnant people are especially protected under German labour law. To this day, some in my former team doubt that what they did was really all that legal and think we should have fought back, because it later turned out that they lied to us about a bunch of things. But I doubt it would have been really worth it. They just wanted us out.
• strken 2y ago
  After being laid off more than once, I think I'd adjust the advice a little: - You're only obliged to work your contract hours. If you do more then make sure that you, personally, are getting something out of it, whether that's "I look good to my boss" or "I take job satisfaction from this" or just "I get to play with Kotlin". Consider just not working overtime. - Take initiative, but do so sustainably. Instead of trying to look good for promo, or alternately doing the bare minimum and just scraping by, take on impactful work at a pace that won't burn you out and then leave if it isn't rewarded. - Keep an ear to the ground. Now you've got a job, you don't need another one, but this is a business relationship just like renting a house or paying for utilities. Be aware of the job market, and consider interviewing for roles that seriously interest you. Don't go crazy and waste the time of every company in your city lest it come back to bite you, but do interview for roles you might actually take. The last two points are fine, however.
  • roenxi 2y ago
    Indeed. The real discovery in the article is that the people who manage performance and the people who manage headcount were completely different people. The article writer had (common mistake) assumed that impressing the former would take care of the latter. It doesn't; the techniques to manage the headcount people are different. I wholeheartedly endorse your adjustments - it is fine to go above and beyond but for heavens sake people please think about why beyond some vague competitive urge. Going above and beyond without a plan just means the effort will likely be wasted. Some cynicism should be used. Negotiate explicitly without assuming that the systems at play are fair, reasonable or looking out for you.
    • mcherm 2y ago
      > the techniques to manage the headcount people are different I would like to hear a little bit more about those techniques. The only one I am aware of is to make sure that you have promotions under your belt: The arm's-length people who plan layoffs know very little about the individual's other than their job title and rank. But this advice is hardly useful: it is extremely rare for an individual to have a choice of whether to be promoted or something different. What other techniques are you aware of?
• jwr 2y ago
  My recommendation would be: don't make your work be part of your identity, unless it's your work (e.g. your business). The work you do for others is not who you are. Your employer is not your family, nor even your friend. It's a business relationship, and should be taken as such. This, incidentally is good advice for both sides of an employment relationship: employers sometimes also mistakenly believe that employees are their friends and family and then get a rude awakening when employees suddenly leave with no warning, for a 10% increase in salary.
  • flymaipie 2y ago
    If your business fails you will consider yourself a failure. Thus these life lessons leads us to buddhist concept of self-detachment.
  • layer8 2y ago
    I agree with the “it’s a business relationship and not family” part, but not with the identity part. Something you spend ~40% of your awake time with is certainly part of one’s identity, and for good mental health should be something one enjoys.
• croemer 2y ago
  For those wondering, he was laid off from Shopify (quick search on LinkedIn revealed, not mentioned in article)
  • snozolli 2y ago
    He clearly didn't want to mention it, so why 'out' him?
    • croemer 2y ago
      I'm not sure he clearly didn't want to mention it - he didn't state he didn't mention it on purpose. I'm sure many people wondered, and going on LinkedIn is trivial. Had it not been on LinkedIn I wouldn't have looked further. If he didn't want to be outed, he could take Shopify off of Linkedin. You could also comment the same on the 3 other comments that "out" him: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42839195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42839195, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42843755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42843755, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42842682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42842682
• xdennis 2y ago
  The worst part is finding out how many things depend on your job. I needed to move out when I was laid off, but good luck finding someone to rent to you when you don't have a job.
  • firtoz 2y ago
    Yes... I'm in the UK, in London. For renting, even as a founder who has a profitable business that was active for a year, they're still either asking for upfront payments (12 months...) or a guarantor. This was the case for multiple locations (SE13 + E16). They said if my business was running for 2 years or more then they'd accept that as low enough risk. A bit understandable in this economical situation, but man, it's hard. Even for the guarantor, they need to own a house and have at least 40x the monthly rent as proven (PAYE or business with 2+ years) yearly income. I knew only one person who could be a guarantor that fits the requirements. Alternative was AirBnb or other monthly accommodation which was of course more expensive.
    • BlueTemplar 2y ago
      The worst cases is when they don't even accept the 12 months of upfront payment !
      • firtoz 2y ago
        Wow, I never imagined that to be possible. What was their reasoning?
        • BlueTemplar 2y ago
          It was bullshit. The real reasoning was of course, as usual : lots of 'buyers', few 'sellers'.
• keiferski 2y ago
  The thing that bothers me most about layoffs due to “financial difficulties” is when you observe management wasting absurd amounts of money on something in one year, then announcing the following year that they have to make cuts to baseline, “low level” employees that don’t cost much at all. This kind of managerial behavior seriously kills employee motivation, because it both communicates that 1) no one has job security and 2) that management is apparently incapable of managing money responsibly. “Sorry, we spent $200k on consultants and conferences that accomplished nothing, so now we have to cut an employee making $40k” really erodes morale in ways that merely firing people doesn’t.
  • mclau156 2y ago
    not a single comment about overpopulation?
  • mk89 2y ago
    That's because they have a budget which is planned ahead (e.g., 2024 for 2025) for everything. Typically if the company is really in financial trouble, they will also NOT use the pre-allocated budget which was not yet spent (=200k for company events, although the budget for such things was planned and approved last year). I have seen companies actually taking care of finances (both firing people AND blocking useless events) and I have seen companies doing what you said, which creates pure hatred.
    • keiferski 2y ago
      Right, which is more indicative of how yearly budgets which don’t factor in continual employment of staff lead to the morale decline I mentioned. Perhaps the manager isn’t actually capable of doing much about it, and can only spend or not spend their budget. But that indicates a failure in the company as a whole; at least if keeping employee morale high is a goal (which it definitely isn’t at many companies.) Even then, the mismanagement of funds just communicates a level of incompetence that is more demotivating than cuts from an actual lack of funds, IMO. “Sorry, the market has shifted and we can’t afford this,” is at least somewhat understandable when you have trust in management’s ability. When you don’t, it comes unpredictable and chaotic - never a recipe for getting good work done.
• Arisaka1 2y ago
  I feel like that not only due to my recent layoff due to cuts, but also due to the job market. I'm tired of applying to ghost openings that exist just to signal growth when there's none.
• nickd2001 2y ago
  Q : What's the difference between a permie and a contractor? A: The contractor KNOWS they have no job security. ;). Your only real job security is your skillset. If that's good, lay-offs are often an opportunity rather than something to be feared. I've been laid off twice, 20 yrs apart. 1st company folded soon after. 2nd got taken over by bigger one. Was glad to be out in both cases, not happy place to remain. In both cases quickly got a better job, pay rise, and engineered a nice long break between jobs. 2cnd time I wasn't super happy there, but risk averse about moving due to young family. Lay-off was helpful push to look for something else. Found another job, then hopped on in 18 months to a great job. Got rid of a nasty commute in the process. Many people tell this story. Far too many of us stay places too long, we think "better the devil you know". Layoffs can be a blessing..... Caveat - if you're working a min wage job without a marketable skillset, layoff is indeed to be feared and a totally different experience.
  • netdevphoenix 2y ago
    > if you're working a min wage job without a marketable skillset, layoff is indeed to be feared and a totally different experience. That's the majority of the population to be honest
    • bandrami 2y ago
      About 1% of the US workforce works for minimum wage
      • netdevphoenix 2y ago
        Is that stat accounting for those working in the dark market (ie without proper documentation)
      • coldpie 2y ago
        There's a lot of minimum wages. Are you talking about the federal minimum wage ($7.50/hr), or the minimum wage local to the worker ($15.00/hr where I live)?
    • 2y ago
• otar 2y ago
  Mostly a bad advice.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • firtoz 2y ago
    Why do you think so?
  • mnau 2y ago
    Why? Seems pretty sensible. Employer-employee is a business relationship. Treat it as such.
    • m0llusk 2y ago
      Worked with some of the teams making the first iPhone and bringing the Internet to everyone in a pocket sized slab was way more than a job it was a dream. Didn't turn out quite as expected, but this idea that work is only that is in my opinion dangerous. Millions are made selling sugar water and there is a famous multimillionaire with warehouses full of nickles, but business can be much more than that and it is up to all participants to build, man, and steer the boats.
      • CRConrad 2y ago
        > but business can be much more than that and it is up to all participants to build, man, and steer the boats. If you own the galley you're a "participant"; if your job is rowing it, you're something else entirely.
• bodegajed 2y ago
  Great read OP. My only hope is that somewhere in the future, when these "efficiency-focused" companies close. (Nobody there will build anything special soon and they can easily be disrupted.) Maybe, just maybe, someone would start something that will do things differently, and others will follow.
• ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  > Avoid going above and beyond with initiatives. Many companies encourage impactful work to earn promotions, but instead of chasing internal advancements, focus on switching companies to achieve your next career step. This is probably the most heartbreaking aspect of modern HR policy. It’s not just about layoffs. It’s about the way the company incentivizes (or doesn’t) worker loyalty and enthusiasm. You could have employees that spend their entire career at a company, and refuse to ever “go the extra mile,” because there’s obviously no motivation to do so. Loyalty, engagement, and morale usually comes from things other than paychecks. Often, simple, basic Respect can have huge impact on the motivation and loyalty of employees. It’s actually quite mystifying [to me], how modern HR practice seems to actively discourage things like treating employees with Respect. I worked for a company that was (at the time I joined them) quite well-known for employee retention. I think the average length of stay was about 25 years, when I joined. They didn’t pay especially well, so their corporate work environment was responsible for that retention. As the years went on, I watched the HR Department become much colder, and more impersonal. They became absolutely obsessive about constantly reminding employees, at every possible opportunity, that we were simply replaceable cogs in the machine, and that the company could get rid of us, at a whim. They never really improved their compensation, and gradually removed many incentives, so it became all stick, and no carrot. Performance evaluations became insulting and predictable exercises in humiliation. I was often told to reduce the encouragement in my evaluations (I was a manager, for many years). I used to take pride in specific and eloquent praise in my evaluations. My employees really appreciated that. HR definitely wanted to make sure that employees felt insecure in their employment. It was obviously a deliberate and calculated policy. Our HR was run by the corporate General Counsel, so, lawyers set the tone. By the time I left (as a result of a much-anticipated layoff), the employee morale was completely in the shitter, and the company’s much-vaunted employee retention statistic was no more.
  • netdevphoenix 2y ago
    > the company’s much-vaunted employee retention statistic In a job market with more candidates than jobs, why would you need to an employee retention statistic? The reality is that in the current job market, regardless of your employment status or your work, your value has greatly diminished.
• xyst 2y ago
  > But today, companies are announcing layoffs alongside record-breaking financial results. You work hard, focus on impactful projects, and receive praise from your lead—only to find yourself let go by someone who likely doesn’t even know you exist This what happens when country policy and businesses are driven by awful neoliberal economic theory and neoclassical/orthodox economic policy. For the past 40 years, we have seen: - wage stagnation for labor - decreasing worker protections (in tech, this means forced NDAs, arbitration, non-compete clauses) - significant decreases in social safety nets - increasing wage disparity across the board - decrease in investment of labor and company and emphasis on stock —manipulation— buy back programs and layoffs for short term gains - decreasing participation in labor unions and thus decrease in collective bargaining power for labor - non-transparent pay grades across the industry - rampant wage theft in the form of: “instead of paying overtime, give you a title, a salary, and expect you to push more than 40 hrs a week” (or do a job that usually requires 3-4 people) - decreasing worker loyalty to companies - increasing consolidation of power and money through monopolies and monopsonies
  • netdevphoenix 2y ago
    If workers don't do something about it (other than complain on random websites) and everyone else is happy with their record breaking profits, you can possibly expect any changes to do this aside from going further in the same direction
• code-blooded 2y ago
  I've experienced a company not only treating its employees as numbers in a sheet, but also actively lying to them. I was part of a well performing team in a corporation in the US. Management told us that we've been making a real impact in the company's goals and they are going to increase our capacity to accomplish even more the next year by adding several more engineers in India to help us with tasks. The facade was well maintained - we got expanded goals for the next year, celebratory meeting for exceeding expectations etc. but you could clearly tell something was off in meetings with management. Little did we know that we ended up training our replacements. Majority of my teammates got kicked out of the company by security, getting paperwork on their way out without a chance to even say goodbye. I was offered a role in another team, but the trust by that point was severed so much that I instead decided to take severance and leave as well. The lesson for me has been to always act like an independent contractor or business owner, even when employed by a corporation or "family-like" startup. Based on mine and many of my friends' experiences there's no such thing as loyalty in the business setting anymore. You are on your own and you should only engage as much as it makes sense to you. Extra hours beyond what's required (e.g. beyond 40hrs) should directly and clearly benefit you.
  • belter 2y ago
    I saw IBM uproot an entire support team, persuading them to sell their homes and relocate their children to another U.S. state with more lenient layoff laws. Once the team had moved, the company made everyone redundant. The proportion of psychopaths on the boards of most companies is off the scale: "...Hare reports that about 1 percent of the general population meets the clinical criteria for psychopathy.[11] Hare further claims that the prevalence of psychopaths is higher in the business world than in the general population. Figures of around 3–4 percent have been cited for more senior positions in business.[6] A 2011 study of Australian white-collar managers found that 5.76 percent could be classed as psychopathic and another 10.42 percent dysfunctional with psychopathic characteristics..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace
    • MortyWaves 2y ago
• secretsatan 2y ago
  This hits me 2 ways, I got laid off in my late 30s and had over 4 years unemeployment. TBH, I'd got bored of what I was doing and it was looking like a career dead end. I took a hobby project and worked on that, learned iOS and eventually got a job in that. But one thing got me, I developed an original app for the company I work for, that is now one of the focus products. I wish I never, I feel like it was literally stolen from me, never ever go above and beyond for a company, your managers will get the credit.
  • achempion 2y ago
    Why you think it's stolen when company paid for your time? If the app wasn't successful, would you have considered refunding your salary back to a company?
    • secretsatan 2y ago
      There's paying for someones time, and then there's going above and beyond. I feel like I shouldn't have gone above and beyond
    • secretsatan 2y ago
      And to throw it the other way around, when someone works over hours and contributes significantly, but burns out, does the company throw out the unpaid work?
• netdevphoenix 2y ago
  There is so much to unpack from this post. 1. Post Dot-com bubble dev naivete: most Post Dot-com devs (ie those who joined the work force sometime after the bubble burst) have only known the summer of tech (ML flourishing, everyone can code movements, nonsensical startups raising ridiculous amounts of money, companies hiring devs they don't need to keep competitors from having and BigHead kind of devs able to keep a job). These are the devs that used to go to r/cscareerquestions and tell everyone that they should get everyone to learn to code and program, the kind that believed in chasing aggressive salary growth at any cost. True summertime devs who have known nothing but joy and love in the tech world. These are the devs who OD'ed on the tech corpo koolaid 2. The super-meritocracy fallacy: following from point 1, these devs believed in the increasingly rare concept of promotion-only growth, the idea that if you worked really hard, your salary and your job title willl eventually reflect your hard work. While this is somewhat true, the extent to which your hard work is actually compensated seems to be overrated by most devs. This a rather peculiar thing as you would expect most devs to be data driven and to actually research whether this is true in general for most companies. Any veteran knows that career progression and salary increase by promotion has a very early point of diminished returns hence the job-hopping 3. The existential meaning of a job: this is another peculiar aspect of devs given that they see themselves as rational. An employeement relationship is a business relationship (like a partnership) where continuous work is exchanged for money. Yet these devs seem to have somehow assume some kind of existential meaning to this transactional relationship the terms of which they should have known. Placing the meaning of your life in a transaction is clearly misguided and it shouldn't take a layoff for someone to realise that. Yet here we are 4. The Saviour Dev Hero myth: this also follows from point 1. Devs being marketed as corpo heros is just that marketing. The supply and demand ratio is not a fixed thing. It changes. Devs were never going to be in demand forever. Business needs change. No one is irreplaceable. No matter how good. There is always someone good enough that will work for a similar salary (or less). During the summer of tech, the demand was higher than the supply so layoffs were rare. But summers don't last forever. Ultimately, the lesson that devs, for all their self-described higher intellect and rationality, never seem to learn is that the goal of all companies is to increase their profits, everything else is secondary. Other goals exist only to help that. Layoffs while declaring record breaking profits is not surprising. Given the job market, new hires could be acquired at a lower salary and perhaps not as many are needed. As an employee, you are there to help increase profits and the company owes you a salary. This implied idea that efforts should be rewarded even when it makes no business sense, that the company should provide an existential meaning to your work or that it should always need you even when it makes no business sense is in my opinion delusional and a by-product of Post-Dot bubble conditions that no longer exist. The market has changed (and it will change again) and all agents within must do so as well.
• moomin 2y ago
  I've been laid off a few times. I'd add one more "danger sign": you're not busy. If the firm/department doesn't seem to be achieving very much, it's a good sign that no-one's asking much of them. Which means the entire area is possibly for the chop. But the line in the Excel sheet thing rings _incredibly_ true. It's actually surprisingly rare to be laid off by someone who knows you. Decision is nearly always made by people who've never met you and only have a cursory understanding of what your entire team does.
  • unknownsky 2y ago
    I've been laid off twice, and both times we were very busy. There were deadlines we were told were absolutely crucial to meet and we were burning ourselves out trying to meet them. The product we were making never saw the light of day and to this day we don't even know why.
• nottorp 2y ago
  It's different when you're contracting and expect your contract to end at any minute. But I was doing some work for this startup ages ago and at some point out of the blue one of our full time contacts asked us if we've been paid because they haven't been. Must have been a lot less fun for them (I had other projects besides them) than for me. I only lost the pay for like 1/3 of a full time month.
• acatton 2y ago
  > The Myth of Job Security in Germany > [...] If a company decides to lay off, for instance, 40 employees, German law doesn’t prevent this. Instead, the law enforces a social scoring system to determine who is affected, prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees, such as those with children. In this sense, when it comes to layoffs, the difference between Germany and the US is minimal. This is not true, and an over simplification. Yes, you can always technically layoff in Germany, but it might not hold in court. Most people have legal insurance (mine is ~€300/y) which is tax deductible if it has employment protection. Mine will cover costs for an employment-related lawsuit. If you feel that your layoff is not justified, you can always sue, the judge could decide that your work contract was unlawfully cancelled, leading to the company having to re-hire you and paying your salary for every month it didn't do so. The company posting record profits could weight in your favor in front of a judge. People, especially non-native like me, don't know better, they just move-on and go c'est la vie. If you sue, win and get re-hired, you can always ask to leave for a bigger package. For companies above a certain amount of employee (50? 75?), if a small amount of employees (I think it's 3 or 4) request it, the company must run a works council election. For any layoff (individual or mass layoff), the work council must be consulted, and has co-determination, they can basically block the layoff, this was done by Volkswagen's work council recently. [1] For large mass layoffs, companies might also have to consult with the authorities. Last thing, the social scoring is much more complicated than "those with children." If you have 4 kids and got hired 7 months ago, you might be fired, and I, single person, might keep my job with my 15 years of tenure. Tenure, disabilities, children, ... a lot of things take part into the social scoring. All and all, I agree with a lot of the sentiments and points of the article. But saying that, outside of social scoring, layoffs between the US and Germany are the same is simply not true. There is a reasonable job security in Germany. [1] https://www.volkswagen-group.com/en/press-releases/agreement-reached-volkswagen-ag-positions-itself-competitively-for-the-future-18911 https://www.volkswagen-group.com/en/press-releases/agreement...
  • leomos 2y ago
    this is very interesting, thanks for sharing it! Are you aware of any story involving individuals fighting their case for a job in a tech company? Would love to read about it.
• nonrandomstring 2y ago
  A great heartfelt essay. I got the feeling it was written with magnanimous restraint. It would be good to do a study on how tech workers feel in an era of such commonplace betrayal and dehumanisation. If anyone has stories they want to share please get in touch at UK Cybershow and let's see if there's an episode in it.
• jollyllama 2y ago
  > Layoffs were uncommon when I started working, and being a developer felt like an incredibly safe job. In most professions, the unspoken rule was simple: if you performed well and the company was financially stable, your job was secure. You hear this a lot but it's the result of developers from sectors that did well during this time period whistling past the graveyard as rolling layoffs hit more mature sectors and firms, such as networking (Cisco) and storage. It's surprising to me that people who are paid to try to imagine how systems perform in different scenarios, and are presumably good at what they are paid to do, fail to apply the same thought processes to the systems that provide them their salaries.
• jongjong 2y ago
  First time I was let go, I was fresh out of university. I had only been in the position for around 3 weeks. I came into the company at the worst possible time and they gave me a task which, in retrospect, was very difficult for a recent graduate; the project had around 30K concurrent users at its peak and I had to make it so that their results tables would update in realtime... They gave me only 3 weeks to do that task (which I had to complete along with some other tasks/bug fixing)... Also, I had to learn git which was not mainstream at the time (this was before GitHub). This was also before WebSockets were widely supported and before Socket.io existed. In retrospect, I should have asked to be assigned to an easier task as a starter, or should have negotiated down the scope. Anyway this was my first job and I was deeply passionate about web technologies so it was a painful experience to be rejected for something which was the center of my universe at the time. After that, I held onto, in fact, excelled at every job and was often one of the top software engineers wherever I worked. I also launched some popular open source projects since then. I experienced some success in crypto (after facing a lot of adversity). I led significant improvements in the crypto project I worked on and things were looking up, the blockchain became highly stable and supported some unique features which would allow it to scale and meet its original vision; but after a couple of years, founders decided they wanted to go in a different direction which I did not agree with and so I had to quit. I made such an impact on that project that I managed to earn income from it for about 3 years after quitting the company; the biggest crypto voting cartel in that ecosystem broke up and re-formed just to include me as a member. Then after 3 years of horrible decisions, the founders essentially ran the project into the ground (no surprise to me); they did such a bad job that they then had to migrate their token to a competitor's platform. I lost my passive income... Though I must have earned like 200K EUR from it over the years. Best years of my life; no job, earning passive income while working voluntarily on open source project I cared about. I was not beholden to anyone and had no responsibilities besides just keeping my node running. After that, I had to go back to working 9-to-5 doing the most tedious jobs, for lower pay. I was forced to accept work for a company in the mainstream finance sector which was the antithesis of everything I knew and believed in, literally going to work every day believing 100% that I was making the world a worse place. I struggled to find motivation; I did my best to hide it but I got fired after almost 1 year (coincidentally, just a few months before my shares would vest). Talent cannot make up for lack of enthusiasm it turns out... It was an unsettling experience hearing the CTO tell me how smart I was and that I won't have trouble finding other work... while firing me... Like 2 weeks after giving me access to their Stripe control panel where I could see all company finances! At that point, I had full access to everything, all user data, all services, all infrastructure. They'd literally put me in a position of ultimate trust, before pulling the rug from under me. I left in a very classy manner and on decent terms, as I always did before. In retrospect, the whole experience working there was very strange. Anyway it's been a struggle to find motivation since then. I don't take my career too seriously now; having seen both the lows and the highs and seeing how talent and determination doesn't doesn't actually make a difference in the face of political machinations (which are pervasive in the industry). I don't think I would even care much if I got fired again. I'm now more political myself; I do the bare minimum. In effect, I've become like the people I used to hate, but I don't hate them anymore because I now understand why they might have been that way.
• bowsamic 2y ago
  I just started a new job in Hamburg, Germany, same location as the author, and one nice thing they have here is an extremely negative view on overtime, making it very encouraged to remain within hours
  • n_ary 2y ago
    > one nice thing they have here is an extremely negative view on overtime, making it very encouraged to remain within hours Wait until your probezeit ends and your POs metrics get strained.
    • bowsamic 2y ago
      My coworkers have passed their Probezeit, do you think it's also like them too? Also, what is with the negativity? Are you depressed? I bet you're just going to say "I'm a Marxist" or something
  • Tainnor 2y ago
    It's not just a "negative view on overtime", there are also very strict laws around the amount of overtime, how much rest you need between workdays and compensation.
• bArray 2y ago
  > If a company decides to lay off, for instance, 40 employees, German law doesn’t prevent this. Instead, the law enforces a social scoring system to determine who is affected, prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees, such as those with children. In this sense, when it comes to layoffs, the difference between Germany and the US is minimal. From what I have seen in the past, the set of people with children and a mortgage can be difficult. Some really do not want to be there, but stay for job security. I'm also not entirely sold on prioritising those lay-offs based on social elements, such as children. I can see incentives being good to have more children in a society, but you shouldn't be punished for not having them. Ultimately from the company's perspective, you want to maximise your company's future success. I would amend some points: > Stick to your contract hours. Do additional hours where required and you are able, but make sure they are visible, and compensate yourself them back. It increases your perceived value. > Avoid going above and beyond with initiatives. For your own sake, take pride in your work. Don't become stale. > Always keep interviewing. Many stop doing this because it's a pain and stressful. I think it is enough to keep your toes in, try to figure out what salaries are being offered, what kinds of jobs are available and how desirable you are. Try to learn those things with as minimal effort from yourself as possible.
  • BlueTemplar 2y ago
    > I can see incentives being good to have more children in a society, but you shouldn't be punished for not having them. Isn't this self-contradictory ?
    • bArray 2y ago
      There's a carrot and stick. Losing your job seems like a heavy stick, whereas a small redistribution of tax seems more like a carrot.
• soneca 2y ago
  > ”Always keep interviewing” This seems as exhausting as working more than 40 hours a week routinely. I would rather keep a financial reserve to cover the time to get a new job.
  • ghaff 2y ago
    It's one thing to informally cultivate a network and another to actively interview all the time. I've done the former which has resulted in my three jobs since the late 90s and I've never done the latter.
• pjmlp 2y ago
  Quite on point, for me it made me value the team, and no longer believe in whatever management tells about "we are family", "company values", or whatever else they feel like selling as the vision and company culture.
• KaiserPro 2y ago
  Op writes sage advice. However I would encourage that the "don't give a shit about the company and colleagues" is not quite as simplistic. Yes, fuck the company, they don't care. You should always assume this. But you _should_ care about your colleagues. They are your network, and greatest asset at the next company. If you are shit to them, they will not recommend you. So my conclusions, and or advice to younger people is this: o Learn what the business wants, it'll help you make better decisions/products, and often gives you fair warning about being laid off. o Be suspicious of the company. o if there a clash between business priorities and you, you will always come off worse. o Go over and beyond for your colleagues, not your company. o fight for your colleagues not the company o your colleagues are your CV.
  • wccrawford 2y ago
    While true, they might not recommend you anyhow. I thought I got along well with my co-workers, and I consistently got feedback at year end that they enjoyed working with me, but when I was laid off and asked them for a recommendation on Linked In, only the most junior of them did it. Even after I left all of them great reviews there. I am still surprised by this. They didn't get laid off. Just me. I'm not angry at them, just very confused about their reasons not to leave me a good review to help me get a new job.
    • CRConrad 2y ago
      > confused about their reasons not to leave me a good review to help me get a new job. At a guess: They're afraid your stigma of not currently having a job will "rub off" onto themselves.
• Prunkton 2y ago
  good write up, let me share my experience coming from the other side. "3. Lack of Vision from Leadership" comes in different flavors. One scenario is exactly as described: leadership genuinely lacks vision, which inevitably leads to layoffs. Another, is when management is already aware of impending layoffs but cannot talk about it yet. While this may seem nefarious, it often has legal implications that restrict transparency. I've been in the difficult position to continue to manage teams while the companys closure was already known to management. Not allowed to inform people is one thing but trying to emotionally prepare them for whats coming is a different, so the drop may not be as high. Forcefully reducing server costs by 50% and cutting of contractors is hardly considered a vision. 'A lack of vision' could be the actual message. By the time I knew what is going on and costs got reduced I encouraged the best kind of development within the team: CV-driven-development with vague sprint goals! You want to make use of the new fancy LLM APIs and play around with it? Sure! Introducing a new tech stack? I can not think of a better idea! While its far from an ideal scenario, its often better than wasting energy on dead features. My idea was to giving people the opportunity to work on something they find personally meaningful and is driven by self motivation. I hope it helped, at least after speaking to every one personally after the bomb dropped, no one was really surprised.
• hdjeirhj 2y ago
  For me layoff was great: - 3 month severance, free money - 1 year unemployment support, more free money - fat tax return, since I falled into lower income bracket, even more free money - moving out out expensive city to countryside, less expenses (and yes more money) I took one year off, finished my opensource project and started consulting. Layoff tripled my disposable income and vastly improved quality of my life.
• austin-cheney 2y ago
  It has been 1.5 years since I was laid off for 6 months. Here is what I learned about this in my 19 year career in software (mostly in JavaScript): * If you can do the job but nobody else can and it’s a critical role you are probably immune from layoffs even with a horrible annual evaluation. It’s not you that’s critical, it’s the job you fill that’s critical. * if you take deliberate actions to make yourself critical, such as the only person who knows the code base, it’s only a matter of time before the mega corp dumps you. Self-appointed critical people are too expensive and viewed as toxic by management, but you can probably get away with this at a mom and pops shop. * once incompetence becomes the universally accepted norm it doesn’t matter that you can do what others cannot. Everybody is a replaceable beginner irrespective of their titles and years of experience and treated exactly as such. The survivors are the people that don’t rock the boat. * if you have years of experience operating, managing, and authoring both people and technology in side projects you are probably far further along into your career than you are getting paid for. If your career is stagnant trying doing something wildly different and see what happens. I achieved rapid promotion after changing careers. * don’t ever work more than you have to unless it’s something you want to do knowing you won’t get paid for it. I liked writing personal software outside of work because at work it could do my job for me or it frees me from the restrictions of shitty commercial software. * the best way to impress management is to 1. do less work and 2. solve tough problems and share your solutions. Don’t be special. Demonstrate value.
  • datavirtue 2y ago
    To the last point, there are few ways to lose respect faster than spinning your wheels with all kinds of tasks. Without consciously recognizing it, upper management is looking for people who understand and live the Pareto principle.
  • quietbritishjim 2y ago
    > I liked writing personal software outside of work because at work it could do my job for me or it frees me from the restrictions of shitty commercial software. You have to be careful on this one. Often (it varies by jurisdiction), blanket rules by companies that all software you write in your spare time are their property can be safely ignored as invalid. But if it is heavily related to your current job then (again depends on jurisdiction) then they probably do own the copyright, possibly even if they don't have an explicit contractual provision for it. If you're using your own spare-time software at work and benefiting from it there, it would be hard to argue it's not related.
• Simon_O_Rourke 2y ago
  > Those who made the poor decisions remain, and some are even promoted, while the people carrying out the work are let go. That's usually accompanied by some mealy mouthed communication from the CEO that "the decision rests with me" or some other poor faith mea culpa while you end up scrambling to get health cover for your wife and kids and figure it how far and severance will get you
• DDickson 2y ago
  This article doesn't mention it, but being laid off will change you at a psychological level. It can be a deeply traumatic event. I was laid off over 5 years ago, and, as these things usually go, it was a complete shock to me. The company had been acquired, and my services were no longer needed. It ended up being a very positive change for my career, but to this day, if I ever get a moment of déjà vu, my immediate thought is to check my phone and see if I've been fired.
  • seb1204 2y ago
    Wow, I would not expect this kind of news to come via txt or email. This should be manager/supervisor face to face.
    • DDickson 2y ago
      I was laid off in a face to face meeting with the VP. Checking my phone might be irrational, but irrational thoughts can be a symptom of trauma. Then again, I do work fully remote, so I'm checking for tell tale signs. Mysterious meetings on my calendar, DMs from the CTO, etc.
      • shaftway 2y ago
        I was laid off twice, about a year apart. Both affected me deeply, and clearly in a traumatic way. The last one was about a year ago. My spidey-sense has been tingling for the last couple weeks, and there's a vesting cliff coming up, so I've been looking at my manager's calendar for suspicious upcoming meetings. I figure there are 8 potential firing days left (Mondays, Fridays, and regular 1:1 meetings) until that cliff, and then I can relax. One of the things that has helped me cope is to constantly be interviewing at smaller companies. It's a lot less stressful to be laid off when you already have another offer on the table.
  • Trasmatta 2y ago
    > being laid off will change you at a psychological level. It can be a deeply traumatic event. I didn't get laid off, but I project I put years of my life into was shut down (in a "row on a spreadsheet" type of way), and it effected me surprisingly deeply. I'm still dealing with the after effects, and reading this thread is making me realize it was cognitively really similar to a layoff. I wish it didn't bother me as much as it did, but that doesn't change the impact.
• DonHopkins 2y ago
  Signs of a Layoff 6) Senior management is mysteriously missing and impossible to get ahold of. (They're not allowed to say anything to anyone.)
• akokanka 2y ago
  [dead]
• eadmund 2y ago
  The author complains that after all his leadership and hustle: > to the company, I was just a row in an Excel sheet. But then writes: > [German] law enforces a social scoring system to determine who is affected, prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees, such as those with children. It sounds like under German law he had to be treated as a row in a spreadsheet. Cynically, it might have been wiser to spend time having a child rather than hustling for the company.
• biohcacker84 2y ago
  I feel fortunate it's not layoffs that made me cynical. But working for mid and big companies. I had the incredible luck of starting my career as the first hire and thus lead developer right out of college. The startup which hired me eventually ran out of steam, but the experience I got is priceless. Now big corporations on the other hand are a shit show, and from what I can tell have always been a shit show. Have laid me off 3 times. And none of it has affected me much. Always quickly found another good position, and that's with being absolutely terrible at live coding challenges. I'd say try to find work you're interested in. If you can, also try to keep your commute as short as possible. And live in a place you like. And good luck.
• Havoc 2y ago
  It feels like companies are moving towards annual layoffs akin to stack ranking and removing bottom. ie annual cull rather than oh no financial results are weak. Last round did spook me a bit too. Decided to up the emergency reserves as a result
• dontlaugh 2y ago
  Join a union. If every worker at a company was willing to go on strike when redundancies are announced, they’d be forced to do better by their workers, or even something else entirely.
• physhster 2y ago
  "prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees, such as those with children" This is so discriminatory, I don't even know where to start. Also, employees with children are more likely to need urgent time off, and have more stringent time constraints than the ones who don't.
• scarface_74 2y ago
  I’ve been working for almost 30 years and I’ve had 10 jobs. A layoff for me has not been “traumatic”. It’s a nuisance. “Always keep your running shoes around your neck”. After staying at my second job too long and becoming an “expert beginner” in 2008 and being stuck, I said “never again” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39629190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39629190 1. I keep enough savings in a liquid account to pay my expenses between 9-12 months. 2. I keep my skills up to date. 3. Don’t be a “ticket taker”. This link I posted to HN describes my thoughts perfectly (It isn’t my blog) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42818169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42818169 4. Keep your network strong. My first layoff was in 2011 when the company was sold for scraps and they let everyone go. We all knew it was coming. Management was up front with us about the difficulties the companies was facing and that kept us apprised of the companies that our investors were looking to for acquisitions. Our investors also promised us that we would get paid for every hour we worked. Most of us stuck around to the bitter end, when the time came, they gave us our notice, we all went to lunch together and came back to the office and just joked around for awhile. The CTO had a couple of recruiter friends reach out to us. From looking at LinkedIn, everyone got a better job within a month. Our major customer arranged for me to finish my work as a contractor for them after making an agreement with the acquirer to let me keep the code while working for the customer. The second time was the year before last and it was Amazon. I commented here about four months after it happened. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37963988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37963988 I honestly didn’t think about the layoff three weeks after it happened. It was then my 8th job since 1996, I got my severance and moved on to my ninth job three weeks later. The next job after that one ended up being mote shitty than I could imagine. I got laid off from there last year. I replied to an internal recruiter from my current company and again had a job three weeks later.
• agtech_andy 2y ago
  I was once in a fast-growing startup, where the CEO told us in a company all-hands that we had 18 months of runway and that our future was looking great! Some of us devs booked long-delayed vacations after months of grinding hard on releases. Turned out that this "runway" factored in dumping all the American devs and replacing us with workers overseas who made ~35-40% of what they paid us. My recent experience in the "data" world taught me that many companies in the US actually want contractors, but our employment laws make it make being "full-time" not that different than a contractor. Another thing I learned was to never jump on R&D type projects unless you are in a very close communication loop with the leadership. If they are going to see you as a consultant on retainer, you have to always be delivering and improving on stuff that affects the business. I was put on some sort of "special projects" role in three fast-growing startups and those are always the first on the chopping block when things tighten up (and they almost always do at some point, especially in a startup).
  • Muromec 2y ago
    As an "oversees" developer who was getting those 30% and paid almost no taxes for ten years -- thanks for your sacrifice. It was great money for that time and was wisely spent on enjoying life.
• tbrownaw 2y ago
  > 4. Sudden, Vague Meetings These aren't actually that rare.
• not_the_fda 2y ago
  I was "fortunate" to live through the dot com crash early in my career. When the times were good, the messaging was we were all one big family. When the crash came, there were weekly layoffs. Co-workers that thought they were friends turned on each other to keep their jobs. I learned to keep a fat emergency fund. I learned to work as a mercenary. I get in, I get out, I get paid. Then I live my life, which is not work. I keep no personal effects, and can be out the door in a second. Coworkers are acquaintances, not friends.
• JKCalhoun 2y ago
  I was lucky to dodge the layoff-bullet a few times in my 26 year stint at Apple. (The layoffs were almost exclusively at the start of my career there, mid-90's, as Apple was circling the drain.) I was told by a coworker, when I was over 50 or so, that they could not fire me because I could turn around and make it about age discrimination at that point. I don't know if my coworker was correct — there is, as was mentioned in the blog post, a weaselly way where they lay off whole teams to avoid the blowback. (And then may cherry-pick a few of the laid-off engineers and make them a quick offer on another team.) Earlier though in my career I had a very cool manager (hi, Steve!) that made it clear to me that The Corporation doesn't give a fuck about me. That, to that end, I needed to chart my own career path and not rely on might bright-eyed "beamishness" to get me anywhere. In the end I did stay with Apple for the whole ride but was quicker to switch teams when I thought I was being either overworked or under-compensated. Seeing the company as the cold entity it is was in fact a liberating concept for me. Fortunately I didn't need to be personally impacted by a layoff to find that out.
  • ethbr1 2y ago
    > was quicker to switch teams when I thought I was being either overworked or under-compensated Calling out internal mobility (and normalized support for taking advantage of it!) as a key corporate culture value. I've worked for companies that make this hard/toxic/impossible and companies that make this easier/normal. The latter are always better, healthier companies.
    • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
      This. Without going into specifics, I attempted to internally transfer to another team for higher level/better pay position. My current boss said he doesn't have a problem with it. I pre-cleared everything with the possible new boss, but I got mysteriously blocked. Few months later, team member from the other team indicated that they were told not to let it happen ( and who said no ). Needless to say, I am miffed. The market is what it is right now, but not only am I not 'allowed' to move around, but stuck with the same pay/benefits, because my raise was.. lets say not great. There is not enough .. not hate.. not enough awareness of how corps fuck you over and HN can help with that a little.
• m0llusk 2y ago
  Alternatively the real lesson here is to put less effort into coding and engineering and more into organization. Small groups that handle entire business verticals are the future. Modern tools and machine learning can enable small groups to outperform big organizations without the wretched chaos that leads to ruthless and unfeeling reorgs and pivots. And clients large and small often prefer dealing with small and focused groups more than large and hard to handle giants that currently dominate markets.
• nsxwolf 2y ago
  I’ve been through multiple layoffs in my life and I’m going through them again, but this is the first time I’ve heard the term “impacted” used so often in this context. It’s used 5 times in this article and it’s said constantly in our company town hall meetings when discussing the current rounds of layoffs.
• t43562 2y ago
  Don't burn yourself out for anyone other than you. Companies have no loyalty whatsoever and will not show gratitude. In general I don't think that the style of work that leads to burnout is desirable at any stage unless if it's for your own startup and perhaps not even then. One day I woke up and grey haired and not rich. I felt that my youth had disappeared, I had various minor health problems. Why did I work till 2am for a fortnight to solve problem X? The project was cancelled after I left or never made any money or whatever - it was for no great achievements. I got laid off anyhow. I encountered plenty of people that generated fear in others pushing towards excessive work but I noticed every one of them going home at 5pm. Do you have to take note of these bullies? Maybe not - I didn't notice them being any worse to the people who ignored their pressure. Don't encourage other people to overwork either - be part of the solution. It's the people that you work with who will be grateful sometimes, in small ways and overcoming problems with them creates friendships. So you must obviously try to pull your weight - I'm not advocating cynicism.
• codr7 2y ago
  "It feels as though the trust between companies and employees is now broken." I'm afraid we haven't hit rock bottom yet, they won't change until no one applies anymore. Huge opportunity for companies willing to do the right thing!
• alkonaut 2y ago
  These leave-on-the-day layoffs are really strange to me. Unless there was a bankruptcy or something, I'd most likely be convinced by management to stay my entire period of notice (3 months) because the company would need to PAY me 100% my salary for that period anyway. If they thought I was a risk to keep around, or they had no work for me at all, then they could just give me paid leave for 3 months. But more likely I'd be doing handovers and documentation and whatnot for the 3 months. But like, closing down accounts immediately? Do companies really think any laid off employee is an immediate security risk to the extent they need to lock them out as soon as they lay them off?
  • bluGill 2y ago
    > Do companies really think any laid off employee is an immediate security risk to the extent they need to lock them out as soon as they lay them off? Yes. There are a few case (a handful across the world every decade) where a former employee has done bad things in retaliation. Yes extremely rare, but it happens.
    • alkonaut 2y ago
      If I was hellbent on doing that, I’d likely pull it off anyway. It seems like a massive trouble to avoid something quite rare.
      • bluGill 2y ago
        Not getting in the door or havng access to systems limits the damage you can do. You can still do much but it won't be near as bad.
        • alkonaut 2y ago
          Yeah. But again, it basically means you have no handover of anything, and in many (most?) places around the world you are still required to pay employees for a long period after notice. So you have an opportunity for handover that you are paying for, but that you aren't using. The risk to the business from just dropping things without proper handover shouldn't be ignored in comparison to the risk of an employer going crazy after being notified their last day is 90 days ahead.
• entropyneur 2y ago
  I am honestly confused by how much people are willing to sacrifice for the false sense of security of a big company job. Folks seem to see employment as something akin to marriage, while I'm completely unable to see it as anything other than a transaction.
• frenchwhisker 2y ago
  Though it was about the finance sector in ‘07/‘08 and its obviously different circumstances, I enjoyed the way the movie Margin Call portrayed layoffs as the author here described them—cold and myopic.
• ubermonkey 2y ago
  I mean, the author needed a layoff to understand this? I thought it was a given.
• mooreds 2y ago
  > For those like me who’ve experienced layoffs, work has become just that—work. You do what’s assigned, and if your company squanders your potential or forces you to waste time on unnecessary projects, you simply stop caring. You collect your paycheck at the end of the month, and that’s it. This is the new modern work: no more striving to be 40% better every year. This is why I've always enjoyed working at startups or being a consultant on my own. You have more risk, but you also reap the rewards of getting better.
• seanc 2y ago
  I've been in high tech for 30 years, and I've been laid off many times, most often from failed start ups. I _strongly_ disagree with a fully cynical response of working only to contract, leveraging job offers for raises, etc. There are a few reasons for this, but the most concrete is that your behavior in this job has an impact on getting the next one. The author is correct that exemplary performance will not save you from being laid off, but when layoffs come your next job often comes from contacts that you built up from the current job, or jobs before. If people know you are a standout contributor then you will be hired quickly into desirable roles. If people think you are a hired gun who only does the bare minimum that next role will be harder to find. On top of that, carrying around bitterness and cynicism is just bad for you. Pride in good work and pleasure in having an impact on customers and coworkers is good for you. Sometimes that means making dumb business decisions like sacrificing an evening to a company that doesn't care, but IMO that sort of thing is worth it now and then. To be sure, don't give your heart away to a company (I did that exactly once, never again) because a company will never love you back. But your co-workers will.
  • ericjmorey 2y ago
    > your behavior in this job has an impact on getting the next one Don't over index on this. It's a small factor among many.
    • fatata123 2y ago
      [dead]
    • milkshakes 2y ago
      strong disagree. from extensive experience. it's a huge factor, and good referrals are really the only way to definitely get the job
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      • codr7 2y ago
• pc86 2y ago
  > The Myth of Job Security in Germany > Since I was working for a German entity of a company, I want to address a common myth about job security in Germany. Many people believe that it’s nearly impossible to be fired in Germany. While this is partially true for individuals who have completed their probation period, it doesn’t hold up in the context of layoffs. If a company decides to lay off, for instance, 40 employees, German law doesn’t prevent this. Instead, the law enforces a social scoring system to determine who is affected, prioritizing the protection of the most vulnerable employees, such as those with children. In this sense, when it comes to layoffs, the difference between Germany and the US is minimal. The author decries how he was laid off despite his contribution then - without a hint of irony - says Germany isn't as safe for employees as most people think because layoffs are legally required to take into account information completely disconnected from your contributions at work. Of course if you have legal structures that make it harder to fire people based on what they do outside of work, you will be forced to lay off people you otherwise wouldn't. What are the odds the author got laid off despite his contributions precisely because somebody who earned more than him and did less couldn't be fired because they happened to have children? In the US it would be approximately zero. Even if the person picking names knows you have kids - but they don't because they're usually 3-4 levels above you - they have to justify the names to their boss and "J. Doe just had their second kid so let's keep them around until next year" will absolutely not fly.
  • bluGill 2y ago
    The hard to lay off makes it harder to hire as well. Sure you get the 6 month probation period, but it is risky to hire anyone because they might make it past those 6 months before bad times come. There is no good answer.
    • pc86 2y ago
      You will have a hard time convincing me that at will employment and hire-fast-fire-fast mentality is not objectively better than whatever you might call the German-style system. (Notice I didn't say it's good, just better) The German-style system seems to treat a job as something the employee is guaranteed, that it's their inherent right to have, rather than something the employer chooses to give them. It doesn't seem to line up with reality.
• mooreds 2y ago
  > Always keep interviewing. One of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen is stopping interviews after starting a new job, trusting in the company. Instead, continuously explore opportunities so that if a layoff happens, you already have other options lined up. I personally find interviewing exhausting. I also feel slightly guilty interviewing when I'm happy where I'm at because I have been a hiring manager and know how much goes into a good interview process from the company side. (Not saying don't do that, but it's hard for me to do so.) If interviewing is tiring, another alternative that requires less work is to be active in a larger tech community. Whether that is here, local meetups, or on social media, being active can raise your profile and keep connections warm. This will help if/when you are laid off.
  • dolmen 2y ago
    networking vs interviewing
• temporallobe 2y ago
  I was laid off recently. I poured my heart and soul into that role and went far above and beyond in countless ways - even working on a critical business proposal while on vacation with my family. In the end no one cares about your efforts, what you accomplished, your certifications, what kind of SME you are, or what potential you have. If you fit the criteria for a layoff, you will be gone without a second thought. After I was informed, my company reached out to me with a “mobility program” where they supposedly helped me to find a position internally. I talked with several people including a VP who promised to find me something only to be ghosted after my official end date. It’s a very cutthroat industry and there is no such thing as loyalty any more. I know I sound bitter. That’s just the way it is. Save as much money as you can, live frugally, keep your resume updated, and always be prepared to jump ship. Don’t stay in a role too long and try to move on voluntarily at the first hint of trouble.
• erellsworth 2y ago
  > It was difficult to process what was happening. Just ten months earlier, the company had gone through another round of layoffs. And at the beginning of the year, during the company’s kick-off event, the president assured us there wouldn’t be any more layoffs. In my experience, whenever a company assures you there will be no more layoffs, there will 100% be more layoffs. Never make the mistake of believing your employer has any real loyalty to you.
  • inahga 2y ago
    That matches my experience too. If leadership even uses the word “layoff”, no matter the context, it’s coming.
• duxup 2y ago
  I know some folks that very much take the cynical approach to work. They work very hard to eek out every penny they can from each employer and switch jobs a moments notice for more money. I feel like this has a strange re-enforcing cycle that they find employers who are just like they are (looking to eek out every hour from their employees) and so they get more cynical. >Always keep interviewing Man that sounds like a full time job on its own...
  • CRConrad 2y ago
    > They work very hard to *eek out every penny they can *: Eke.
• magicstefanos 2y ago
  What I've learned is that, for employees, job security is never real. There is only silent risk. You might get lucky and go through an entire career never losing Russian roulette...but you're just lucky. But I've also learned that there is no security of any kind in life. People who've lived nothing but peaceful lives will never understand, and they'll even lecture you about "making your own luck," when they should be thanking God for their good fortune.
• Twizzlewhisker 2y ago
  I was 15 years in at one company and got an out of the blue mass firing notice over zoom one day. A significant number of developers with over 10 years at the company were let go. It was devastating to think back over the times I decided to work late versus spend those hours with my kids and wife, the times I was at home but decided to "check in" on things at work, and the fact that I had fused my work identity into my personal identity. I landed a gig at another well known national newspaper and hated every second of that dysfunctional team. I did fully separate my personal life and my work life. I basically punched the clock and worked my 40. Every six weeks or so I had to pull an on-call shift, but the monitoring setup was almost nonexistent so it was cake. I spent just over three years there before they had a significant round of mass firings. However, I did not keep up with interviews and previous relationships made with recruiters during my last round of looking for a gig. I came pretty close to flat broke in the four months it took to land another job as I had one kid moving to college and another out of school living at home. I'm still at this current gig, and I honestly couldn't care less about it. We are doing so cool stuff, but every Monday I clock in with the expectation of having a mass firing email when I log in. I have kept in contact with all recruiters that were helpful in this last round and I keep applying and interviewing for jobs. I am a terrible interview, but I'm amazed at how well I do when I am interviewing while having a current job. I'm also applying for a wider-range of jobs that I don't quite have the skill sets for and those interviews go well too. If you are just starting out and think you landed the job you will retire from, I wish you well and hope that works out for you, seriously. It would also be a wise move to prepare for the unexpected by making relationships with recruiters and HR employees at other companies. Don't ever think you are not replaceable. After the first mass firing, our positions were posted to be filled only from Mexico. The second mass firing was to be filled by Brazil. You owe no allegiance to the company you work for. Do they randomly gift you with extra weekly paychecks for 10 hours of work you did not do? Why gift them with 10 hours of work they don't pay you for?
• jll29 2y ago
  It's important to take pride in one's work, but don't forget one second that the relationship is asymmetric; if you choose to be loyal, the company employing you won't be loyal back. The worst thing you can do is to feel personally and emotionally vested in the relationship, and then be disappointed that "despite" you going full in and giving everything, going above and beyond the expectations, it still affects you. As the OP correctly states, the decisions are made by others, and they may not know you. But while some people involved may know and value you (e.g. your direct line manager), they will not stand up and fight for you in 99% of cases, because they don't have much power, and they would like to keep their own job.
• that_guy_iain 2y ago
  One warning sign not listed, if your company has lots of offices around the world and leadership visit your office when they never do before. They're talking about changes within that office which is generally the structure of the office.
• the_af 2y ago
  > However, during a layoff, it seems that who you are and what you do doesn’t matter. In most cases, the decision is made by people who don’t even know you. I think this is a key observation. I of course cannot speak for every case, but in the couple of layoff rounds I've been witness to, for unrelated companies, layoffs are done without relation to individual skills or contribution. Or rather: they may start with low performers, but these aren't enough, and then the next people that get axed are good performers (sometimes brilliant in my experience) for areas that the execs deemed not important enough for the company. Key words "not important enough", not unimportant. They are also done by people who don't know the team or its members, resulting in firing people who were later found to be essential, and their manager cannot speak for them because the manager was also laid off. In the end, remember this when judging your "loyalty" to a company.
• joshstrange 2y ago
  In response to the suggestions at the end: >> Stick to your contract hours. If your contract says 40 hours, work 40 hours—no more, no less. Protect your personal time and well-being. 100% agree, a company is (almost) never going to say "that's enough, you shouldn't work so much". They will say they only want you to work XX hours but they aren't going to chide you for going over. >> Avoid going above and beyond with initiatives. Many companies encourage impactful work to earn promotions, but instead of chasing internal advancements, focus on switching companies to achieve your next career step. Ehh, I mean don't kill yourself for a company that doesn't care but the idea of jumping companies every few years is not appealing. You might make more money but I kind of doubt you'll be happier, to each their own. >> Always keep interviewing. One of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen is stopping interviews after starting a new job, trusting in the company. Instead, continuously explore opportunities so that if a layoff happens, you already have other options lined up. Gross. Interviewing sucks and the idea of trying to onboard at a new company while interviewing sounds horrible. >> Leverage external offers for salary growth. Companies often resist giving substantial raises to existing employees but pay top dollar for new hires. Regularly interview elsewhere, and if you get an offer with a 20% or higher salary increase, consider taking it. Many people have seen their compensation triple or quadruple this way in just a few years. You can do this 1, maybe 2 times at a company before you paint a target on your back. This will work in the short term but not in the long term (At a single company) >> Don’t overthink your résumé. Worrying about short experiences on your CV isn’t worth it. You can always tailor your résumé—leave out brief roles, or consolidate short-term jobs as freelance experience. Ultimately, your résumé is just a starting point; your skills will be assessed during the interview process. Completely agree, your resume is not your record, it's not "official", you tailor to the job you want. Leave off technologies you don't want to work with, leave off jobs that aren't the type of thing you want to do, etc.
• RIMR 2y ago
  I am in the middle of being laid off right now, and might as well share some of the details, because my situation is a bit weird. My team of 12 was reduced by half in November. They told us that 6 would stay and 6 would go. I was told I was staying, and that my position was "unaffected", but I was also told that I was going to have an end date in either February or March, which to me sounds like my position is pretty well affected... They have refused to give any of us an official end date, or discuss our severance terms in writing. Right now, I have been assured that my last day will be 2/28 and that I'll get 2 months if severance, but they could change their mind if they wanted to since they won't commit. I have voiced that this keeps me from effectively planning my next career move. What if I'm offered a job starting in March, and my current employer decides to they want to keep me until April? I'd be forced to choose between receiving a severance vs. accepting the new job. All the while, they have us training our replacements in India, as if we have the motivation to do anything that benefits the company right now. Most of us are only cooperating at all because we want out in March and don't want to be dragged along for months while they try to keep the product afloat. And the reason they aren't terminating our entire department and product is because they want to maintain the few million dollars in ARR they get from our customers, even though that ARR is 1/10,000 of the company's total revenue. And they won't keep that ARR because they're getting rid of the entire customer success team and transferring the responsibility to a call center in India that is demanding to only work on India time (ending business hour product support entirely for our predominantly North American customers). They also have zero experience with the kind of product we make, and have no chance of successfully addressing the kind of work they're going to be expected to do for our customers. All because the people who made these decisions have absolutely no clue what anyone in our org does. We really are just lines in an Excel sheet. We were a startup a few years ago that this much larger company purchased because they wanted to use our solution massively at scale inside of the company. Revenue wasn't even how we were supposed to be measured, and they're going to actively destroy the entire product that they spent so much time and energy implementing across the business.
• talkingtab 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • seneca 2y ago
    > You are nothing but slave labor This is an absurd and out of touch thing to say to a crowd mostly made up of highly paid engineers.
    • WrongOnInternet 2y ago
      [dead]
    • pizzafeelsright 2y ago
      This is a very negative to look at employment in general: Whatever the skill - pushing rocks up a hill or pushing code into a repo - someone with power over you is taking half your waking day to generate disproportionate compensation. I personally see the alternative viewpoint which is I am able to provide for my entire family a life of non-work because I sacrifice 50% of what would be idle time without them. Ultimately you need something to do during your waking hours. I give 50% to the company and 50% to my family.
    • hattmall 2y ago
      Historically the slaves of the ultrawealthy often lived much better lives than common free people.
    • dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
      No it is not, just because one slave is paid more than another slave it does not make the former a less of a slave. But it's good that you think that way. Keeps the system going. We need more of you guys.
  • ergocoder 2y ago
    I know what you mean, but a 500K software engineering job doesn't seem to match what you say...
• gchamonlive 2y ago
  I think the article, although well built and clearly criticising crucial points in the modern work structure, fails to see the fundamental issue that is at the core of these layoffs. In fact, the recommendation for those who are still employed is incomplete and therefore doubles down on the issue without realising it. While everything in the article is true, that you shouldn't romanticise your job, focussing on the job description only, only ever working the amount required and making lean résumés will reaffirm the status quo and aggravate the situation long term. It does this because it doubles down on what fractured the working landscape to begin with, which is individuality, competitiveness and alienation. You can't treat an alienating job as if it was already the job you dream of. This is wishful thinking. But going full hostile to your job won't make your situation any better. Here's what I suggest instead. Do everything the article says if you identified your work environment in the descriptions in the article. At the same time do a honest and deep evaluation of your values and what you aim to be in 5, 10 years time. Thinking long term will have first the effect of putting the immediate problems into perspective and will highlight what's missing in your career today in order to get the job you'd want for you. Invest in your portfolio. Keep doing interviews. Don't compromise on deliverable quality, because if you go down the road of actively crippling your performance, you will eventually become the bad developer you are allowing yourself to be just to get back at the current company that doesn't value you. Remember, you don't get a dream job and then you become the great developer you think you should be. It's unfair, but the reality is you first become the great professional you want to be and then you get the dream job you want, if you are lucky. It's never guaranteed. It's always a game of probability. The only constant and the only thing you can control is you and your relationship with your work as an ever flowing, ever changing process.
• snozolli 2y ago
  Avoid going above and beyond with initiatives. It's been my experience that accepting whatever dumb challenge management presents is how you get kept on. The advice that "your job is to make your manager look good to his manager" rings true to me. I would add that boosting your manager's ego goes pretty far, too. I find both activities detestable, but necessary in corporate life. Always keep interviewing. One of the biggest mistakes I’ve seen is stopping interviews after starting a new job, trusting in the company. I've never understood how people can muster the energy for this. I'm sure it's a great idea, but I would burn out immediately.
• sakex 2y ago
  I was laid off from Google in January last year alongside 150 people in my extended team. I managed to find a different team in Gemini, so now I'm part of Deepmind. I have very conflicting feelings because on one hand I really enjoy the work, the team, and the absolute genius of people I get to talk to; but on the other hand, I have some resentment for being so inhumanely laid off, I am sad for the people in my team who were not as lucky as me, and I know it can happen again any time.
• donatj 2y ago
  My company brought on consultants. They were having us do the absolute strangest things. Pointless meetings. Duplicating infrastructure. Documenting processes so deeply entrenched in what we did they'd never be forgotten. Then they hired another small team that did basically the same things we did on a much smaller scale. Then my department got sold to another company, and it all made sense. Looking back it's pretty obvious that they were bifurcating while duplicating important infrastructure. At the time going through it though I just thought the consultants were total morons, not understanding the business and that we'd be doing twice the work by having two of everything. They sold it to us while it was happening that we were the domestic team and they were the "global" team, and we bought it as a concept, but we all thought it was a stupid distraction. We were absolutely certain we'd be merging our departments within a couple years. Finding out that they had been actively lying to us about what was going on for almost a year really... Changed how I thought about companies. They had been lying to my face every single day for a very long time, that really violated my trust.
• 1970-01-01 2y ago
  The biggest indicator of layoff is when sales are consistently bad. You should always get to know your sales teams. They are the canary in your coal mine.
• ideashower 2y ago
  I was laid off from my first engineering role at the age of 22 and it broke me. Poor leadership, and infighting between me and my supervisor who couldn't reasonably manage me and support a new engineer (he monitored my git commit history to see if I was "working," leading me to make smaller and more frequent commits to inflate my work). He clearly was a legacy engineer that didn't code much anymore (I had to teach him how to use Git) and due to his age, was promoted to management. I was mid restructuring the UI on their shitty product and dated codebase when I got the news. Up until that point I had been pretty excited for what was supposed to be my first engineering gig. My whole view changed on work and tech companies in a second.
• libpcap 2y ago
  It's important to note that not all organizations operate in this manner. My own experience with a layoff last year included a two-month notice period and a severance package equivalent to nearly a year's salary. During my notice period, our manager encouraged everyone to prioritize their job search.
• corytheboyd 2y ago
  > Always keep interviewing Isn’t it going to be incredibly obvious after a while, with all the random 1-2 hour OOO blocks during working hours, that something is off? Any seasoned manager will see right through it, but would never call it out directly to you. Then, let’s say you get an offer, do you say you’ll only sign if you’re laid off? It’s expected you sign the offer and join reasonably soon. I’ve seen offers rescinded after ridiculous start date doubling down by candidates. You will be actively shooting yourself in the foot if you get an offer and don’t take it, because you just wasted many hours of their time, and they may remember that if you apply again… Outside of all that… where do you even find the time to ALWAYS be interviewing?! I put (exactly) 100% into my current job, so always interviewing means I have much less free time. It guarantees I am always stressed, and being stressed ruins my life. I like the work I do, but find it incredibly exhausting and dehumanizing after long stretches. Five 8 hour days is enough of a long stretch to make me feel I am wasting my life, I can’t even imagine how always interviewing would ruin me… The better advice in the same light is to always be networking— or at least making sure you HAVE a network. Referrals are your only weapon against the flood of trash applications. So yes, yes, I get that I am a row in a database, came to terms with that a long time ago— this is the silly game we play for money. Until society collapses, and we miraculously reform it to something better, this silly game we will continue to play. I just want to scrape joy out of as much of that time as I can.
  • scarface_74 2y ago
    > Isn’t it going to be incredibly obvious after a while, with all the random 1-2 hour OOO blocks during working hours, that something is off? Working and interviewing remotely, it’s definitely easy to work and interview at the same time. No one thinks twice is occasionally it takes an hour to respond to a message. Heck even when I am not interviewing I close my Slack and email for blocks at a time to do “deep work”
  • notyourwork 2y ago
    If a full time job makes you feel like you’re wasting your life, you may never find happiness or solace in life without a winning lottery ticket.
• froggertoaster 2y ago
  Full disclosure, I've never been laid off. OP sounds very bitter and - frankly - melodramatic. Getting laid off is terrible, but this person makes it sounds like they'll never heal/never be the same/all companies suck/etc. when none of those things are true. There is an implied business relationship with an employer that can end anytime, and that's expected because it's a two-way street. I agree with the top commenter - seanc - when he says: > Carrying around bitterness and cynicism is just bad for you. Pride in good work and pleasure in having an impact on customers and coworkers is good for you. Sometimes that means making dumb business decisions like sacrificing an evening to a company that doesn't care, but IMO that sort of thing is worth it now and then. Finally, income diversification pays huge dividends. I had a startup job where suddenly I found myself with a $65k/year pay cut one week. I had side work from folks who were asking me for more anyways so I quit that same week on Friday. Now I employ 10 people and pull in nearly a million a year. Really makes the emotional part of having lost income that week completely meaningless in the long run.
  • froggertoaster 2y ago
    I appreciate the downvote internet stranger - remember that I'm laughing all the way to the bank. :)
• gwbas1c 2y ago
  > Layoffs were uncommon when I started working, and being a developer felt like an incredibly safe job. I'm in the US. I'm mid career, entered the job market 22 years ago, and have another ~22 years before I retire. Layoffs were very common in the 1990s when I was teenager. In the US, if you think layoffs are a "new thing," you're very naive. (Remember, the author is from Germany.) One thing I did very early in my career was learn enough about business to know that businesses, markets, and products don't last forever. Most don't even last a whole career. Sticking in a job long enough to get laid off with a severance is a good thing: You don't get money when you leave a job voluntarily. (Granted, there are good reasons to leave before the layoff, but keep in mind that if you loose out on a severance, you've left money on the table, especially if you can get a job before the severance runs out.)
• almost_usual 2y ago
  Always prioritize physical and mental health over work. Only go above and beyond for your employer after you’ve done so for yourself.
• herval 2y ago
  The last 2 years fundamentally changed how a lot of people perceive work. I've witnessed layoffs in the past, but they didn't seem to hit as many people as hard as they did this time. That said - having seen how layoffs are organized from the inside (multiple times), I can _guarantee_ that the list of suggestions on this post ("Suggestions for Those Who Haven’t Been Laid Off (Yet)" - particularly the first 2 points) are the best way to get included on the layoff sheet, in almost any organization. They might be good ideas for mental health reasons, but definitely an easy "name on the list" if you're perceived as "just doing the minimum" (I know that doesn't sound fair, but that's how boards think).
• lizknope 2y ago
  > The Broken Trust of Modern Work > Layoffs were uncommon when I started working, and being a developer felt like an incredibly safe job. In most professions, the unspoken rule was simple: if you performed well and the company was financially stable, your job was secure. > But today, companies are announcing layoffs alongside record-breaking financial results. From the author's website: > I've been working as a Software Developer since 2016 I've been in the tech industry almost 30 years. I saw the dot com boom and the collapse. Hiring like crazy in the late 1990's with companies have having signs "WE ARE HIRING!" outside their parking lot where you could just stop on your lunch break and have a new job by the end of the day. I've worked at companies posting big profits but still had layoffs to underperforming groups. When your profit margin is 10% but another group is 40% they will sell off or shut down the lower margin groups. Sometimes there are offers for internal transfers but it depends on the skill set. After the dot com collapse I've never felt any trust or loyalty to my company. I have felt a huge amount of trust and loyalty to my coworkers. I still work hard. It can still be fun. But if someone needs a job it is great to have a wide network of former coworkers. I've worked at 8 companies and only at the first 3 did I just blindly apply. The other 5 were former coworkers who recruited me to join. Then I do the same for them. I've worked with some people for 15 years at 4 different companies sometimes with gaps of 3-4 years in between but we meet for lunch once or twice a month and keep in touch.
• devmor 2y ago
  I've been laid off many times, for many reasons (mostly startup financial issues), but what I've taken away from it a mantra that's a bit different. I need mutual respect. I want to believe in whatever the company is doing and enjoy my work there. At the same time, I want the company to respect my personal time and further my career growth. This enables me to give my best effort. I have no delusions about the workforce - I am a cog in the machine as we all are, but I will at least be a well greased cog. When it's all said and done, I would like to leave a company feeling good about my time spent there, and if I am happy with how I am treated and the work I do from the start to the end, then however it ends, I feel good about it.
• dandare 2y ago
  I keep saying this: A company is a legal person, and you should not try to be loyal to a legal person because legal person can not be loyal to you, You can, however, be loyal to your boss, and your boss can be loyal to you, as long as this does not conflicts with his duties to the company.
• jwmoz 2y ago
  A job is a means to an end.
• kazinator 2y ago
  LinkedIn bellyaching is hitting HackerNews now, good grief.
• terhechte 2y ago
  I used to work together with Mert at the same company but choose to leave on my own 2 years prior to his layoffs because of similar issues as the one pointed out in this post. Most notably, the lack of vision and the excel table. The company had been dragged down by unbelievably incompetent leadership for some time. You could tell by the composition of teams that employees were not considered based on their qualifications but based on a moving-resources-around-in-an-excel-table strategy. There were also no attempts to gain knowledge from engineers or consider their feedback on decisions. This isn't ultimately something every company needs (bottom up is a double edged sword) but mixed with incompetent management it is a fastlane into chaos.
• atmb4u 2y ago
  This article is wrong in so many ways and not generalizable. I can see on bigger companies, you may be an excel sheet row. But, the reason why someone would get laid-off is the exact opposite IMO - not adding value. But in a smaller early stage company, you are responsible for team's success or failure and you are the only reason why someone are getting laid-off.
• dumbledoren 2y ago
  The author seems to have just discovered that capitalism does not have loyalty to anyone other than the shareholders. And those shareholders do not care whether you have contributed to their profits much more than anyone in the recent past - if it looks like they can make more profit that quarter by laying you off, they do it. Maybe we should start calling this the "enshttification" of work? As capitalism is enshttifying everything, it was unimaginable that work would not get affected...
• mobilene 2y ago
  I've been laid off a few times in my 35-year career. Being laid off felt like a betrayal to me for a long time. But I was operating under a false model: that because I worked hard and did good work, that the company would value me and take care of me. I also used to shake my fist at the bad outcomes of stupid decisions made by people above me. It took me this long to realize that this is all a game of chance. Me choosing a company to work for is me playing the odds. The decisions my superiors make are bets, too. And sometimes, even good bets don't work out. It's still worth it to work hard and deliver what your management wants in spades. I've been brought along to any number of new employment opportunities because I'm remembered well for being a person who did those things. I've come to see my career as a series of stops, and my current stop is just what I'm doing right now.
• gmd63 2y ago
  From my stint at a big corporation, the person I knew most closely who "succeeded" the most (for themselves, not for the company) would routinely interview for competitive offers and threaten to leave. I saw on a few occasions this same person lie in meetings to cover their ass to people who were less technical. I know of one person who has somehow managed to do the bare minimum at two full time remote jobs simultaneously. To everyone reading the comments that describe corporations as the ones who treat their employees with contempt, it's sadly a two way street. It comes down to shitty people polluting expectations at all levels of society, and people dialing back their expectations accordingly. With all the Luigi talk in the air, it's important to remember this goes for insurance companies as well. Insurance fraud is a huge drain on the industry and it's folks of all levels of wealth committing it. It's a part of the reason why insurers squeeze harder to keep the profits flowing. That's obviously no excuse for delay/deny/depose tactics--I'm just saying that in an environment of fraudsters who add friction to a company that does business honestly, you will find that the cheaters and bad actors will bubble to the top, more so than usual.
• AutistiCoder 2y ago
  Hell, searching for my first job changed how I perceive work. The job market as it is is tough. Add autism & ADHD to the mix and it gets tougher. I decided to give as much of a shit about the corporate world as it does to me - which is to say, I stopped searching altogether. I decided I'd rather be unemployed.
  • gsck 2y ago
    Thats the go getter attitude companies are looking for! Something to hard? Give up. That's sure to get you hired
    • Muromec 2y ago
      You can still steal the proverbal catalystic convertor even if its not your employer's truck.
    • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      I mean... Strategy not yielding results as expected? Better change it up! Honestly, good for them.
    • AutistiCoder 2y ago
      I didn't give up. I pivoted to content creation.
• silexia 2y ago
  Modern finance is the true villain; it removes businesses from the hands of the real founders who understand it and puts it in the hands of clueless MBAs.
• throw01272025 2y ago
  When I read the title, I suspected it might be about Shopify. Unfortunately, my suspicions were confirmed. The company's handling of layoffs left a sour taste in my mouth. The way Shopify dealt with its staff departures was unacceptable. The lack of transparency and communication during this period not only eroded trust among employees but also created an atmosphere of fear and paranoia. The constant silent firings, combined with the CEO's outbursts during town halls, have severely damaged the company's reputation. I've seen a similar situation play out in my own experience when new management was brought in. My team members were suddenly being threatened with being put on notice, leading to a nasty shift in morale and productivity. It's worth noting that Shopify's actions aren't isolated to large corporations like themselves. Unfortunately, this type of cultural shift has become all too common in many industries and companies. Nonetheless, this specific incident left a lasting impact on me, and I actively discourage any who asks me about working at Shopify - something I haven't done for any other company I've left _or_ been let go from.
• darafsheh 2y ago
  This hit home for me, thank you for sharing. I was a bit surprised that you didn't mention or explore a path outside of employment, rather chose the content path of receiving paychecks and wasting time not being very motivated to push yourself. Don't give up on your potential!
• asoneth 2y ago
  As heartbreaking as they are for those affected, layoffs provide incredibly useful information for prospective employees. For example, was it a small number of people who were laid off with decent severance, or was it a huge mass of people let go unceremoniously with minimum severance? And were the layoffs due to a sustained period of unprofitability or did they occur during periods of profitability? In the former case why wasn't the business doing well and has that fundamentally changed? In the latter case, did they first attempt to reallocate people to more productive areas? > Everything I’ve shared reflects the current state of the tech industry. It might differ at very small companies, but once you work at a company with more than 100 employees, you’ll likely encounter many of the same patterns I’ve described. Many tech companies have never needed to resort to layoffs -- not just small companies but medium-sized and/or privately held companies. Personally I consider layoffs of any sort to be a major red flag. It means company management makes poor business or organizational decisions and is willing to tank morale and lose their best people to please shareholders. It means that you're going to be a line in a spreadsheet that can be spun up and down as necessary. Personally I'd steer clear, but if you choose to enter into a relationship with such a company you should appropriately discount any salary they offer to factor in that risk.
  • CRConrad 2y ago
    > layoffs provide incredibly useful information for prospective employees. > For example, was it a small number of people who were laid off with decent severance, or was it a huge mass of people let go unceremoniously with minimum severance? And were the layoffs due to... Fine idea in principle, but not implementable in practice: Prospective employees don't know who got laid off, and even if they did, they most likely don't personally know any of those people. So they have no way of finding out any of those useful things.
    • asoneth 2y ago
      > Prospective employees don't know who got laid off, and even if they did, they most likely don't personally know any of those people. True, I've never interviewed somewhere where someone I know personally got laid off. But for large companies there are typically news articles about layoffs, their size, and occasionally even their generosity. For publicly-traded companies you can wait for the annual/quarterly reports, but these days there's usually a press release or blog post[1] if it's more than a handful of people. For private companies that are too small to be newsworthy you can still scour Glassdoor and other forums. But regardless, it's definitely something a prospective employee should ask about during the interview e.g. "Tell me about the last time your organization had layoffs...". Obviously you get a positive spin from an HR or hiring manager, but when I'm interviewing I find those answers most informative. [1] e.g. https://blog.google/inside-google/message-ceo/january-update/ https://blog.google/inside-google/message-ceo/january-update...
• pards 2y ago
  > they only do what’s strictly required to avoid a performance improvement plan. No one goes above and beyond anymore; no one takes initiative to improve things. Why? Because it doesn’t matter. I see this at large Canadian financial institutions, too, but for the opposite reasons - employees recognize that it's really difficult to fire people based on performance. It's so hard, in fact, that it's easier to talk them up and get them hired internally by another team and make it someone else's problem.
  • Muromec 2y ago
    You can strike the word Canadian out of it just fine. And anyway, it's not like firing a person is any different -- they just become a problem of somebody else.
• josefrichter 2y ago
  I once contracted for a company that laid off 6 of my bosses in 7 months. The one who hired me was fired 2 days after I started. In the end, they didn't extend my contract, basically because nobody knew anymore where I belonged in the company structure, who do I report to, and who should actually extend my contract :-)
• jstummbillig 2y ago
  As an employer, I remain confused about the common notion that being an employee is somehow safer than owning a business. The opposite is true. First, I don't have need unemployment insurance. You are my unemployment insurance. I am hedging against your mistakes, as well as mine. Second, I assess the situation to the best of my abilities, but also: How I see fit. As an employee, on the other hand, not being able to decide might as well feel like getting struck by lightning. (Here I would only add that as an employer it also feels like that if people fire you — as in: they quit — for any reason. It's just that you get more chances to practice it.) Reconsidering the supposed safety aspect of an employment (since it's such a sticky idea) is certainly one thing I hope we would do. Unfortunately, when trying to discuss the issue with employees (not necessarily those who work for me), they mostly seem to rather not want to think about it. Other thoughts. Why I run a company: It's certainly not money. I would even argue I (and most people I know running SMBs) relatively care a lot less about job money than the average employee does. I do it because would hate to work on something I think is bad and where attention is not spent, where it should be (so exactly what a lot of employees complain about in their company). Best I can tell, a good reason to work for a company is getting to work on stuff that excited you and that you could not do better on your own. But I think more people should consider doing their own things more often! I would welcome more meta-competition in organizing work in a better way. Points of disagreement with the post: - People will miss things and systems fail, but I can't think of any reason why a CEO would not want to be able to spot the people who a) are not assholes and b) gel really well with the company. I don't want anyone to work overtime for me, but the above will still hold true. A company is complicated, and you being a considerate human being makes everything so much better. - Yes, Excel is how you work with numbers, also those pertaining to human beings. That's just the responsible way to organize information about things. But if you think that robs me of my ability to think about or care for human beings, I am mostly confused. Can you not think of humans when you write code, because it's digital characters on a screen? Still, it's of note that even highly analytical people find something dehumanizing in that, when it pertains to themselves.
  • CRConrad 2y ago
    > I can't think of any reason why a CEO would not want to be able to spot the people who a) are not assholes and b) gel really well with the company. The CEO might want to be able to spot that, but in any company of some size they won't be able to spot it. Simply because they're the CEO, and there's far too many people working under them for them to keep that close track of every one. A team lead (of a not-too-big team) may be able to do that, but then they'd have to simultaneously be the CEO. i.e: It only works for companies the size of not-too-big teams.
• sghiassy 2y ago
  Someone once asked Napoleon how he decided where to assign soldiers. Napoleon’s reply was that it’s simple: soldiers are either smart or dumb, lazy or energetic. * The smart and energetic I make field commanders. They know what to do and can rally the troops to do it. * The smart and lazy I make generals. They also know what to do, but they’re not going to waste energy doing what doesn’t need to be done. * The dumb and lazy I make foot soldiers. The takeaway, is that only after you lose your shiny glasses are you ready to take on larger responsibilities. Don’t become jaded. Don’t carry around resentment - just get on with it - and you’ll Very much be on your way to career advancement
  • redlock 2y ago
    What did he do with the dumb and energetic?
    • wsgeorge 2y ago
      My guess, frontlines.
      • CRConrad 2y ago
        That was "foot soldiers".
    • lenocinor 2y ago
      You get rid of them: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/28/clever-lazy/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/28/clever-lazy/
    • incognito124 2y ago
      "I shot them", he said.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • FaceValuable 2y ago
    Did he say anything about the dumb and energetic?
• kbr- 2y ago
  To the author, if you're reading this: If you were on such good terms with VP of Eng and C-levels, why didn't you reach out to them and ask what's going on? They could interfere and prevent your layoff.
• DebtDeflation 2y ago
  There was a time when the word "layoff" referred to a TEMPORARY separation due to a lack of demand with the understanding that when activity picked back up you'd be recalled back to work. This was particularly common in the automotive sector and really across manufacturing. These were cyclical industries and while employers couldn't afford to pay idle workers during periods of low economic demand, they also couldn't afford to lose the skillsets. Oftentimes unions would provide partial compensation to these workers until they were recalled. Somewhere around the mid 1990s, "layoff" became just a euphemism for permanent reductions in force/downsizing.
  • cj 2y ago
    I think the word you’re looking for is furlough.
    • rsanek 2y ago
      i was surprised when I looked it up too but it looks like this was true of layoffs as well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layoff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layoff
    • DebtDeflation 2y ago
      Nope. Layoffs were always understood to be temporary, up through some point in the 1990s. Furloughs were much shorter in duration, typically days or weeks, and in some cases were partial (one or two days a week).
• crhulls 2y ago
  I’m the cofounder of Life360, a company I’ve grown from seed to IPO, now with about 600 employees. This whole issue can be addressed by embracing a straightforward social contract, something I share openly with everyone I hire: No promises of lifetime employment. I’m focused on the long-term health of the company, and our needs will inevitably change. If we continue to grow, it’s almost guaranteed that not everyone will be the right fit at every stage. No expectation of loyalty. The flip side is that we aim to attract ambitious, hungry people, which means we need to provide real opportunities for career advancement. If we can’t, I understand you’ll move on. If we let someone go after a single bad quarter, that’s on us for being shortsighted. We know people have ups and downs, and we don’t want to be overly sentimental, but we also don’t want to act rashly. On the other hand, if someone’s job-hopping every year, that’s usually a sign of short-term thinking. From 2014–2021, job-hopping didn’t matter much. Now, it’s becoming clear that those signals are important again. At the end of the day, it’s not about judgment—no good/bad or right/wrong here (aside from obvious dealbreakers like dishonesty). It’s just adults making tradeoffs. That said, I’ve seen how some companies shy away from being upfront about this, which leads to cynicism. We’ve had moments like that too—at some point, we started calling ourselves “a family.” I shut that down fast. It wasn’t popular, but it helped clarify our stance. You know what you’re signing up for with us.
• siliconc0w 2y ago
  I'm convinced layoffs are a persistent management memetic where we've convinced ourselves these are necessary, good, and magically creates efficiencies. In reality it's a desperate shotgunning your org chart since you've apparently no better way to figure out what you need or don't. It's incredibly destabilizing and demotivating and creates a culture as seen in this post where you no longer have workers that feel aligned with the success of the company (because you're telling them they aren't). It should be reserved for absolutely existential moments in the company, not when you're seeing record profitability.
• meganeko4545 2y ago
  The author was young and learned the hard way. There is no single country on Earth that is integrated in the ultra-financiarized western economic sphere that is not potentially affected. It is the end of stable jobs and pretty much the end of all economy altogether, except for the crony capitalists that leech off the printer. Every company is owned by Blackrock. They take major shortsighted decissions to the tune of the imaginary casinos ("investors", or "the market") or fund scorings. Productive activity no longer matters. Experienced people no longer matter. The game is a different one and you are not even a player.
• matrix87 2y ago
  Layoffs are just a symptom. Overhiring and easy money are the cause. Companies aren't there to "take care of you", they aren't welfare departments They hired a bunch of people who took the money for granted, and at some point that's no longer going to sustain itself
• ForOldHack 2y ago
  "However, during a layoff, it seems that who you are and what you do doesn’t matter. " And that is exactly how corporate America works. Shareholder value before everything. The billionaire keep the stock price up not for the value, but for their simple greed. F** you and your self-worth. RIF. Reduction in force. Spend every end of week, on the clock making three envelopes: your resume, an envelope which says 'blame everything on the previous guy' and the last envelope? 'make three envelopes'
• yborg 2y ago
  At any large commercial organization, you either represent capital or you do not. If you are not part of the ownership class, you are entirely disposable - whether or not you are in actuality critical to the business functioning. There are many situations in which the financial incentives of ownership are directly opposed to those of the hired help. Took me a long time to realize this because most people aren't sociopaths, while corporate management and certainly the super wealthy have a significant proportion.
• spandrew 2y ago
  I have a friend who went into full-on overemployment mode during the pandemic and never stopped once RTO became a thing. Somehow he juggled 2, and sometimes 3, jobs at one time. Of course he was staving off a performance-improvement-plan (pip) at one of his jobs at all times. He didn't care about work. It was all about money. That worked for him short-term, but longer term Jack became a very VERY dull boy.
• indymike 2y ago
  I've never been laid off, but once was part of a company that went bankrupt and was one of the last people to leave the payroll (which is like being laid off, but where your employer is dead so at least you can console yourself with being the guy turning off the lights)... That said I did a lot of laying off for that company. Almost everyone ended up much better off after a few weeks or a month or so of searching. People would rightfully worry about if their actions caused it or why me instead of ___. The truth was that it was really about spreadsheets. For me, I ended up getting a much better job that paid 2x what I made at the bankrupt company. But the feelings of having your livelihood rug-pulled are really difficult.
• inerte 2y ago
  Once I read May 4th and 2 emails, I knew it was Shopify. I was also affected. My view of why it happened is a bit different than the author, but my conclusion is wildly different. I've been on tech for almost 20 years, 11 of them in the US. On average, I do see people that work hard and on important things getting recognized and promoted. I don't have this bleak view that nobody should do anything, it's all random, nothing matters. I do agree at the end of the day we're just numbers on a spreadsheet for large companies. Most of the time it's not personal, and Shopify probably decided having engineers in Germany wasn't worth, no matter how good they were (and I personally knew a handful that were really, really good, live there, and lost their job). Those things aren't contradictory. You can work hard and be promoted and get more recognition, and you still can be cut due to decisions completely out of your control. The opposite is also true. Average people get lucky to be on the right project at the right time, sometimes multiple projects in a row. Peter principle and all. But on average, companies to reward the people that bring value to the company (and its owners)
• softwaredoug 2y ago
  Layoff culture will create companies full of Dyatlovs from Chernobyl, covering their ass, not that brave, not that innovative. Focused on maybe a promotion or surviving the next round of firings. It's sad to see the tech industry self-sabotage this way.
• rmk 2y ago
  It feels like a lot of people who joined the workforce after 2008-2010 are experiencing their first "tough times". It's natural to respond in this manner. But there is an important caveat: one must seek out good work and deliver in order to stay employable, and have access to good opportunities. Or, they must develop a good network and essentially hop from one job to another with the exact same set of people (this is much more common than you'd think). For the former, you still need to show up and go above and beyond every once in a while, so getting excited about work is still a prerequisite.
• dowager_dan99 2y ago
  >> ...to the company, I was just a row in an Excel sheet. TL;DR it won't make you feel better but you're not a row in a spreadsheet; you're a fungible generic resource. <For all but the smallest organizations> At a certain level and/or for specific events, executive leadership is playing checkers not chess. You see this in overall staffing, budgets and lay-offs. Your executive is tasked with very excel-like tasks, such as "cut n people" or "trim your budget xx%". They then get political and attack specific initiatives or teams, or peanut-butter it across everyone. By definition they need to work at a generic level to "scale". When it gets to selecting the actual people, it's either done by the people who DO know individuals but you might not have credibility and a good reputation (or worse, they actively target you), or at an even less related metric, like a calc that provides the perception of "fairness" (true story: I saw HR try and calc how much "experience" we could get for each dollar of salary). IME only if it's a very small layoff (~ < 10-15%) and selected by the front-line manager do you see the high performers saved, and it's still political. Context: I report to the CTO but still have lots of direct interaction with ICs. I struggle to meld these worlds at the intersection almost daily. I've been involved it doing the lay-offs at two companies. Aside: there are TWO failures in doing what is the incredibly unpleasant job of laying people off: 1. Everyone knows you only get one lay-off before it's all over. After the second round nothing gets done. You almost always hear "this is the only round" and I believe leadership actually believes this, there's just know way they can know for sure. 2. Botching the order of operations. You need to get your sh!t in order and not do stuff like send out the laptop return courier before the announcement, or cause extra panic and confusion with timing and poor messaging. Ignorance, Incompetence or Schadenfreude; I have no sympathy for less than perfect behaviour and execution here.
• ivanjermakov 2y ago
  > Stick to your contract hours. If your contract says 40 hours, work 40 hours—no more, no less. Why not work less?
• saos 2y ago
  Op missed a sign..."Sudden C-Suite departure". Just be sure a lay-off is near!
• americasonly 2y ago
  [flagged]
• mattapcba 2y ago
  The guy mentions layoffs between Germany and US are the same. They are not. After probation is harder to lay off people (you have 3 months notice) and usually good severance packages. I have friends who were laid off and actually they made a buck.
• sim30n 2y ago
  > You’re Just a Row in an Excel Table Usually those just above the layoff line will have a fun time inheriting the work of those below the line.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• paulhodge 2y ago
  Agree with the headline but I think the takeaways are a little too cynical. You don't really have to take such a confrontational approach with future employers. IMO the biggest takeaway I had after a layoff: Always try to navigate your career so that you are doing something valuable to the business. You can tell based on a lot of clues whether you're in a position that's valuable or if you're forgettable. Moving "toward the money" not only helps job security but it helps your compensation too. Say for example your team has a stretch of a few months without any new high priority requirements or requests. A young developer might think, "Yay, finally we have enough time to do all that refactoring in the backlog." But in reality, that situation should make you very concerned.
  • CRConrad 2y ago
    > Agree with the headline Which of them -- the original (and still on TFA), "Once You're Laid Off, You'll Never Be the Same Again", or the current one here, "A layoff fundamentally changed how I perceive work"? (And YTH did it change to something else??? Weird.)
• bitbasher 2y ago
  Getting laid off was the best thing to ever happen to me. It woke me up from a dream I was in. I believed if you worked hard and provided great value to a startup you would be valued and have a place. After five years at the company (as employee #1), I was laid off. I realized my mindset was delusional and I swore to never work for anyone ever again. Several years later, the founder that laid me off asked if I wanted to co-found a new company he was creating. I sorta felt vindicated then :) insert godfather meme
  • CRConrad 2y ago
    So, did you join him, or did you mean your vindication was "No way; fuck you, too!" ?
    • bitbasher 2y ago
      I heard him out and considered it. I ultimately decided not to join him.
• kartoolOz 2y ago
  "कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते मा फलेषु कदाचन | मा कर्मफलहेतुर्भूर्मा ते सङ्गोऽस्त्वकर्मणि" - Bhagvad gita, chapter 2, verse 47. You have a right to perform your prescribed duties, but you are not entitled to the fruits of your actions. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, nor be attached to inaction.
• Anamon 2y ago
  > 3. Lack of Vision from Leadership I think layoffs at my employer have been imminent for 5 years...
• joeldg 2y ago
  [dead]
• steeeeeve 2y ago
  This really seems to me like a big warning that says to avoid hiring people that were laid off. Better advice. Be who you are. Work for and with people you like. Do what interests you where you are valued. You will spend a lot of time at work. Try to make sure it feels good.
• isaacremuant 2y ago
  I skimmed this and I'm glad this person learned this. I don't think you need to be laid off to learn this, you can just OBSERVE reality and will find this to be true easily. I did and hopefully don't get to suffer what OP did but I know it's just one random event from happening. I'd add another: don't trust future plans or promises. Get yours now or assume it won't happen because "circumstances changed" is a typical trick that's pulled on people.
• WalterBright 2y ago
  The author's advice to do as little as possible will ensure a self-fulfilling prophecy. In every company I've worked for, everyone knew who the "little as possible" workers were. They were not respected by their coworkers. When people left to do startups, those people were not invited. When layoffs came to town, those people were the first to go. If you're confident in your abilities, use the layoff as the kick in the butt needed to found your own startup. Invite the high performers at the previous workplace. (I've known people who did this, and would relate to me much later how the layoff was the best thing that happened to their career.)
• SaintSeiya 2y ago
  That's why all of the bootlicking wording from employees now makes me puke: "teamwork" "passionate about my work" "making an impact" "standups" "going above and beyond"... all of that is bs. Go to work, collect a paychech and leave as early as possible. Reserve teamwork for your group of friends, passion for your hobbies, raising a family or having fun out of work. And never, ever give them 2 weeks notice. When you find a better job, just walk away and email them when you are at home. Fire the company that will not give you 2 weeks notice for layoffs.
• Tokkemon 2y ago
  I was laid off about a month ago. I worked as a software designer and one of the top experts in the world on the software and its subject matter. Didn't matter, they broomed me anyway. Broken trust, indeed.
• keeptrying 2y ago
  Do NOT work only your contract hours. It might seem like the logical choice but it rarely is because of following reasons : 1. You cannot build strong skills working just contract hours. 2. You cannot market your achievements by working only 40 hours. And in turn this makes you dispensable and more disposable. 3. You can't control your work which is probably the most important element of all this. 4. you can't search for great positions with the new skills you achieved if you only work 40 hours ... Work in such a way that you get recognition for the hours worked. Do important projects, not crappy side projects and MARKET THE HELL out of your work. Everyone should know what you are doing. Every day at a job is a campaign to increase your salary massively - either at the job or somewhere else. (Btw, this is how most people in NYC think thought they may not admit it.) You have to do impressive things and then use 3x your time marketing them to everyone else in the company. Everything else - money and promotions will follow. (Process won't be pretty - but you won't be floundering nearly as much as others who don't take this advice.)
• dangoodmanUT 2y ago
  > Stick to your contract hours. If your contract says 40 hours, work 40 hours—no more, no less. Protect your personal time and well-being If you want to be mediocre and/or don't care to get promoted sure?
• hsuduebc2 2y ago
  Purpose of corporations is to make money. It's a tool. Nothing less and nothing more. Using people work is the way they are doing it. Expecting something different is very naive. I think the only wise way to cope with that is maximize your output and minimize your input. If you are here not for experience or mission itself there is no point in undercutting yourself. You can't expect loyalty from a tool. You can expect common decency from a management but that's different story. Don't become only cynical. It's just how it is. It's an opportunity for you to get more money and experience. From finance perspective it's usually a win. Good luck! :)
• rtyuhytr 2y ago
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• TheCapeGreek 2y ago
  It's hard to read posters in this thread that disagree with the article when citing their 15+ years of experience. Sounds like a mix of time healing all wounds, survivorship bias, and maybe a little Stockholm syndrome. "Just be positive" about wasting almost 1/2 of your waking hours a week once the curtain drops doesn't sound like a very sustainable solution to life to me. Or maybe it just hasn't been long enough since my burnout and layoff ;)
• RamblingCTO 2y ago
  Sorry to hear that. I could imagine that leadership actually didn't know you were being laid off. So the VPs and C-level execs might actually be pissed that someone laid off their go to person. Another perspective I'd like to offer is one of renewal. You can move forward and find something that suits you even more. Something I am quite envious about right now to be honest. Maybe a sabbatical?
• dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
  Without reading the post. Why is the person changing their view of their relationship with their job in the first place? Doesn't he/she know of people who have been laid off before, among their family/friends etc? Even reading anecdotes of layoffs on the internet will reveal that one ought not be too psychologically entrenched in one's job.
• dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
  Click bait. I'm sure that the author who is capable of writing such a post is also capable of reading other post/articles of people who have had layoffs in the past, and hence none of anything that happened should be a surprise for him. So my guess is that he has written it for the clicks.
• jimjag 2y ago
  "You should never worry about betraying your workplace because given the chance, your workplace will definitely betray you. Loyalty to individuals. Relationships. That's what makes the world go round." - Raymond Reddington.
• Chengdavid 2y ago
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• htrp 2y ago
  > Layoffs were uncommon when I started working, and being a developer felt like an incredibly safe job. In most professions, the unspoken rule was simple: if you performed well and the company was financially stable, your job was secure. Seems like the author has only been through an up cycle
• arsi42 2y ago
  good blog!