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Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

970 points by madtrax 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
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WolfCop 3y ago
> Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan.
- andersa 3y ago
  Not a valid reason to terminate it.
  - bunbun69 3y ago
    Are you believing a “trust me bro” comment?
    - archagon 3y ago
      Say what you want about Tim Sweeney, but he has integrity.
      - twoodfin 3y ago
        In what sense did the submarine delivery of functionality clearly in violation of their contract with Apple—the inspiring incident for all this drama—represent integrity?
        archagon 3y ago
        It was very obviously intended as a launch pad for the lawsuit, not a genuine attempt to skirt App Store rules.
        twoodfin 3y ago
        If my contractual partners were to violate agreements I had entered into in good faith in order to gain PR advantage in a pre-planned legal dispute, I wouldn't tend to think of them as displaying integrity.
        archagon 3y ago
        Yes, from the perspective of a corporation being sued for acting unethically, Sweeny lacks integrity. I’m not sure that reflects poorly on Sweeny’s character.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      Apple says they did it for no reason other than that they could, not because Epic violated anything. > “Epic’s egregious breach of its contractual obligations to Apple led courts to determine that Apple has the right to terminate ‘any or all of Epic Games’ wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games’ control at any time and at Apple’s sole discretion.’ In light of Epic’s past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right.” https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/06/apple-terminates-epic-games-developer-account-calling-it-a-threat-to-the-ios-ecosystem/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/06/apple-terminates-epic-game...
      - lsaferite 3y ago
        > no reason other than that they could That's statement is wrong given the quote you posted right after. They clearly state it's due to perceived breaches of contractual obligations. FWIW, I have no horse in the race, just pointing out what I would assuming is a misapprehension in your statement.
        Jensson 3y ago
        That quote didn't show the whole part, I realized it looks a bit strange out of context there. Here I'll break it down with some more: > Schiller suggests that Epic’s “colorful criticism” combined with its past actions “strongly suggests that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules.” So, the main transgression here was "colorful criticism", that is the ongoing behavior by epic, nothing about safety or contractual breeches. If they believed Epic would break contract they would have banned them 5 years ago when that breech happened, not now, nobody can argue that a 5 year old breech of contract on another account actually warrants a random ban of this account today.
sidewndr46 3y ago
This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any reason and not disclose it.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Given the DMA, Apple are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. If they can kick off anyone who decides to do that, then the law is entirely pointless (and the EU commission are likely to be upset).
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    Sure, they are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. They can also add any number of other policies which you probably run afoul of several times a day. Then terminate you for that. You can still develop your app store, you just can't break all the rules to develop your app store.
    - afavour 3y ago
      ...which is exactly the kind of thing the EU Commission will punish them for. If they create a bunch of new rules and only punish those who are developing their own app stores they haven't given themselves a magic get out of jail free card, it'll be very obvious to everyone what is going on.
    - stale2002 3y ago
      > Then terminate you for that And then the EU takes them to court and fines them billions of dollars. The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force.
      - nozzlegear 3y ago
        > The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force. But surely the US would not just stand still either while the rest of the world plunders one of its most successful megacorps/source of American influence.
retskrad 3y ago
Why are investors seemingly blind to the fact that Apple is fighting tooth and nail to protect their App Store revenue (while looking like jackasses in the court of public opinion and pissing off regulators and their relationship with developers) because if the App Store money in their pocket dries up, all hell breaks loose because all of their hardware products are no longer growing. The stock will crash and the executive team will be in trouble.
- NBJack 3y ago
  Pretty sure the savvy investors know this. But why would they kill the golden goose?
  - observationist 3y ago
    A walled garden is difficult and expensive to maintain. In Apple's case, it also requires a constant battle against the public interest, because they've carved out various niches in domains that intrude on interoperability, consumer rights, privacy, censorship, surveillance, tax evasion, child slavery, and so on. If they cede ground, they lose money, so they develop and execute strategies that minimize or mitigate loss in conjunction with maximizing gain. Apple has no principles or ethics or morals to which it is bound; it's governed by an optimization algorithm that pits the profit incentive against the constraints of resources, legislation, and their public image. Apple's only as effective as the humans who execute their assigned roles within the overall algorithm, so the organization is subject to the usual human weaknesses and foibles. Pride. Arrogance. Bullheadedness. Complacency. If these weaknesses infect the culture, spreading across many roles, then many things can degrade and spin out of control. Apple is just as mortal and vulnerable as MySpace, Yahoo, Sears, Blockbuster, or any other big company or institution. Without the advantages afforded by the unsavory, unethical, and unprincipled aspects of their business, Apple might not be able to maintain their walled garden effectively. Apple's particular variety of golden goose may not continue to be compatible with the markets in which it currently dominates, since much of the regulation, litigation, and legislation will focus on Apple's effects on the world. Lots of things could happen outside their control that would kill the golden goose. Lots more things could happen if they fall prey to human failure modes.
flik 3y ago
[flagged]
martinsnow 3y ago
[flagged]
Fin_Code 3y ago
Sounds like they violated a non disparagement clause and signaled they will not adhere to policy. All they had to do is keep quiet and launch to minimize their liability. Guess they will need to fight in the EU to see if they can claw back.
- jefftk 3y ago
  Where are you seeing a non disparagement clause?
- andersa 3y ago
  A non-disparagement clause is not valid under the DMA.
  - r00fus 3y ago
    Perhaps Apple needs to separate geographies in its account setup. Let Epic have the EU account, but disable them everywhere else. Because in the US/Asia, Epic has no DMA protections.
    - andersa 3y ago
      This is indeed about an EU-specific account by Epic Games Sweden.
  - otterley 3y ago
    Do you have a legal citation for this assertion?
- BearOso 3y ago
  There's no chance the DMA includes a non disparagement clause. That's totally against free speech.
  - Kluggy 3y ago
    I don’t understand how free speech relates to the DMA?
rvz 3y ago
Here we go again...
frankjr 3y ago
> (...) the U.S. judgment expressly provides that "Apple has the contractual right to terminate (...) Yeah good luck with that in an EU court.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ajaimk 3y ago
They got kicked out for willingly breaking the rules in the past. Not for criticizing Apple. Actions have consequences.
- NBJack 3y ago
  From the article: > Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan. Apple cited this X post from this thread written by Tim Sweeney. Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- lxgr 3y ago
  The difference is that Apple is now largely no longer in control of the rules, at least in the EU. It seems like they haven't come to terms with that yet.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  so apple gave them green light _after_ breaking the rules and decided to go uno reverse after several weeks to red light the epic, because epic criticized apple, lol)
deleted 3y ago
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hizanberg 3y ago
If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer. It does present an interesting question on whether a Company can be forced to have a bad actor as a Customer, I guess this will be decided in the lawsuits to come.
- archagon 3y ago
  If your company has a market segment captured, you should not have any right to do that, irrespective of your feelings.
- ajross 3y ago
  App vendors aren't customers. They don't pay Apple anything more than the license fees for Xcode. The app's users are the customers, and if you start throwing out the partners you lose customers. Now, sure, the calculus might change depending on your relationship with each partner, but you absolutely cant say that Epic doesn't bring revenue to Apple. They do.
- ginko 3y ago
  Epic isn't apple's customer. They just use their tools.
- andersa 3y ago
  Your company is likely not considered a core platform service, so your analogy is not relevant.
- _fat_santa 3y ago
  The key difference I see in Apple's app store business is that it's a monopolistic marketplace model. If Apple allowed an alternative to the app store then this wouldn't be an issue. Take Microsoft and Windows as an example, they have the Microsoft store which operates as a marketplace with rules but they don't get the same scrutiny because there are alternatives. Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself. With Apple though, the bring it on themselves by having a monopolistic marketplace. Since they are the sole gatekeeper to getting apps on the iDevices, there is no alternative like there is in the MS ecosystem. Apple could end all scrutiny tomorrow if they allowed a way to install apps on iDevices that bypassed the app store and Epic would have no case.
datadeft 3y ago
We need % of revenue based punishment for such acts to see fast this attitude can change.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
andrewmcwatters 3y ago
Whether or not Tim Sweeney has a legal leg to stand on, I'm so happy he keeps fighting this. Likewise with Spotify. I love that the EU is pushing legislation to give at least some people back control of their devices. I'm curious why Tim Cook thinks Apple can continue to treat developers they way they do for years on end and it won't slowly but surely come to bite them hard one day.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  Look, this is confusing. Can I just call them Tim Epic and Tim Apple?
  - coolspot 3y ago
    Yes, mr. President
- zyang 3y ago
  Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll.
  - hu3 3y ago
    > Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll. -zyang Unreal Engine is free up to $1 million revenue and 5% after that. How is that a "greedy troll"?
  - adrr 3y ago
    Why is it bad for people to profit off their work? You can use unreal engine for non-commercial use for free. The source is open.
andersa 3y ago
The fines Apple is going to collect for intentionally failing to comply with the DMA are going to be of Epic proportions, exceeding any profit they could have gotten by continuing to steal 30% from society. Ready your popcorn buckets for the next few months/years. They will likely be making an example out of Apple - after all Apple and Google are the reason for this legislation to exist in the first place. > In the non-compliance decision, the Commission may impose on a gatekeeper fines not exceeding 10 % of its total worldwide turnover in the preceding financial year where it finds that the gatekeeper, intentionally or negligently, fails to comply with [...]
- samatman 3y ago
  Sounds like Apple should exit the European market then. No one is forcing them to do business there, and it only accounts for 10% of their revenue.
  - hu3 3y ago
    Apple bent over pretty hard to stay in China [1] and they'll do the same for EU. Because if they don't, the network effects of an entire important continent without Apple's strong presence would be devastating long-term. [1]: - "Apple tells suppliers to use 'Taiwan, China' or 'Chinese Taipei' to appease Beijing" https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/05/apple_warns_suppliers_in_taiwan/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/05/apple_warns_suppliers... - "The problem with canceling Jon Stewart: Apple bowed to Chinese government censorship" https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/10/26/jon-stewart-apple-tv-show-canceled-china-government-censorship/71298946007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/10/26/jon... - "Apple pulls Taiwanese flag emoji from iPhones in Hong Kong" https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-10-08/apple-taiwan-flag-emoji-iphones-hong-kong https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-10-08/apple-taiw...
    - matwood 3y ago
      Using China as a comparison doesn't work b/c Apple manufacturing is so intertwined with China. There is no Apple without China right now.
mrtksn 3y ago
I wonder why Apple doesn't open up their platforms to have everything best on their devices instead of fighting and agonising developers and governments. Yes yes, the commission is nice but they might be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I mean, Apple is amazingly good in some areas but in some other areas their products are used only because they don't give a choice and they intent to keep it this way. They also want to control everything and provide all the services. A bit short sighted and futile IMHO because the competition is catching up with their user experience but Apple doesn't catch up as quickly with the "smart" bits of the modern tech. I recall a Steve Jobs speech about Apple doing a few things %20 better and other things worse and how he intents to change this by embracing the industry standards because they simply can't do everything by themselves. I feel like Apple is doing the same mistake again where their products are becoming slightly better at few things and worse in others simply because you can't have the better stuff installed on Apple devices.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  Steve hated industry standards. The only time he ever said anything else was when every web site in the world ran on flash and iphone couldn't do flash. Every iphone user was reminded daily about how kneecapped it is when they can't pull up the web site for the restaursnt to check hours or call up for a reservation. That kind of life experience was his entire focus and his showpiece product failed utterly at it. And so he said flash is bad and html5 and pwa is the better way to do what flash does. Since then they only say anything even slightly similar only as a defense against monopoly charges about native apps "what? you can use pwas" but only on Safari and castrated functionality. If Steve could have sold a product that didn't even use the same tcp/ip and html as everyone else, he would have. The only time he allowed the tiniest shred of interoperability is when there is no way to sell the product without it.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Maybe the word he used wasn't "industry standards", I couldn't find the video now. The idea of the speech was that you can't do everything by yourself because you have just this much capacity and if you stretch yourself too much you end up with overall worse experience even if you do some things better. I think he was explaining why he is abandoning some internal Apple projects in favour of the established ones made by others.
k33n 3y ago
Apple should get out of the European market entirely. Their product offering is literally incompatible with the laws that govern EU commerce. There's plenty of money to be made in Asia/Pacific and the Americas. Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market. Apple has literally never cared and should never care what outside bodies (including to a large degree -- their own customers) want their products to be. It's what has made them unique in the past. If Apple backs down on their vision then they are no longer Apple.
- andersa 3y ago
  Apple is making many billions selling hardware and services in the EU - investors would cook them for that move.
- lapcat 3y ago
  Apple's last quarter results: $30 billion in net sales from Europe, their second largest market behind the Americas. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q1/FY24_Q1_Consolidated_Financial_Statements.pdf https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q1/FY24_Q1_Consol...
- lm411 3y ago
  > Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market. This how I feel completely. I use quite few different devices & operating systems on a daily basis (MacOS, iOS, Android, Linux, Windows, FreeBSD) and they all have their place. I use a Mac for my primary workstation and an iPhone for my primary phone specifically because I want security, stability, and usability on those devices. Also, the Apple ecosystem & iCloud, are very convenient for sharing / collaborating with household family members. Don't get me wrong - many Linux distros are very stable and secure. But the "year of the Linux Desktop" is still far out. I actually feel it's further out now than it was 5 years ago. Which is too bad, because I am an avid Linux user and have used it since Slackware 3.0 / kernel 1.2.13. Easily 50% time spent on my Mac is just using a terminal logged into Linux or BSD based servers. If I wanted a single phone, for fun, learning, hacking, etc, it would definitely not be an iPhone. But that's not what I want / need in my phone at this point in my life. It often seems that the people pushing so hard for Apple to change its ways are not the people that actually use Apple Products, but rather individuals projecting their own beliefs and preferences onto others.
hartator 3y ago
Shielding the Epic game store under a different account is not the bravest move from Epic. I would ban other Epic accounts if I was Apple.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  Which Epic Games account would you prefer they use, the American one? If you want to talk about cowardly behavior, we should discuss Apple's anti-steering policy. At the root of this brouhaha is an indefensible double-standard that Apple cannot sustain in a fair market.
charcircuit 3y ago
Apple should avoid destroying developer trust as developers aren't forced to write ios apps. Apple needs developers.
- cheeze 3y ago
  Developers aren't forced to write any apps. They write apps where the revenue makes sense. And the revenue makes the most sense on ios for a large share of developers. 95%+ of developers don't care if Apple doesn't allow Epic on their store. That's just reality. If my boss tells me "we're launching an ios app" I'm not going to tell him about how I disagree with Apples principles and refuse to build it.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    They care about their own accounts being deleted over some disagreement. The risk of having your account banned changes how you invest in the platform.
    - darknavi 3y ago
      > They care about their own accounts being deleted over some disagreement. The risk of having your account banned changes how you invest in the platform. I wish it did but it really doesn't. You can see countless "I lost my google account for a random reason" and yet everyone I know has a google account and probably uses gmail.
  - mdhb 3y ago
    No but a lot will start building PWAs wherever they can instead because they no longer need to write an entire second copy of their app that only runs in one place and can’t share code and they don’t have to just pay 30% of their revenue to someone for no good reason. Trust me, Apple pissing off developers is absolutely going to have serious implications for them.
    - Seanambers 3y ago
      Then they should just code for Android, stay there and leave us in the Apple Ecosystem alone. I have no effin need for a second store, or a third or a fifth.
Despegar 3y ago
Epic perhaps thought Apple might show them grace after the lawsuit in the US. A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude and keeps doing business together while simultaneously suing each other. Apple on the other hand has decided they will show them no quarter. I don't think they're being emotional about it. I think it's to show every other developer that they will actually enforce the DPLA that everyone signs, and they won't turn the other cheek.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Parts of Apple's DPLA are likely unenforceable in the EU going forward.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    Attempting to enforce an "illegal" contract provision seems pretty "emotional" to me. Apple is finally in a position to lose their monopoly grip on a platform software store, and they clearly will stop at nothing to stop the loss of that revenue, this is obviously an existential problem for them.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      It certainly threatens their app store revenue, and by extension market value, so it's rational for them to push back, but by no means is it an "existential problem". Apple is quite a bit more than just the app store. There's probably risks on both sides here, too: Playing hardball with EU regulators and courts could cost them a lot of money.
      - akira2501 3y ago
        > so it's rational for them to push back If your vision for your company only extends to the next quarterly earnings report, sure, it's "rational." If you consider the fact that every other participant in the market dislikes this practice, that this dislike has finally risen to the level of government involvement, and that laws are about to be written taking it away from you, then clutching it to your chest is best understood as an emotional position. It's rooted in a desire to not lose the past while attempting to deny that any other future could possibly exist. It's classic denial, on a trillion dollar corporate level.
dmitrygr 3y ago
Epic is learning the lesson that Nvidia had to learn. Apple holds grudges. Honestly, it was idiotic of them to expect anything else. Maybe they thought that they were more Samsung-like and after being a huge pain to apple, life will resume normalcy. Apple needed Samsung. They do not need Epic.
- paulmd 3y ago
  people really think bumpgate was about some issue that also affected AMD too and not closing the door on NVIDIA building a platform inside Apple's platform and shifting the balance of power? you've been reading way too much semiaccurate lol https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2021/10/13/apple-vs-nvidia-what-happened.html https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2021/10/13/apple-vs-nvidia-w... like, we have the benefit of a decade of retrospect and watched nvidia do exactly the thing that apple refuses to let their partners ever do (namely: wear the pants in the relationship), and you're still taking charlie's takes at face value. Do you really think it's the bumps and not Apple taking action to protect themselves and their future products against the threat of competitive lock-in posed by NVIDIA and CUDA? it is just amazing that people continue to take the guy seriously. How is that "NVIDIA is 4+ years behind AMD in the mid-term, and GV100 and GP100 are bumpgate 2.0" working out for you? Was ~2015-2020 a good period for Radeon Group? https://www.semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/nvidias-volta-gpu-raises-serious-red-flags-for-the-company/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/nvidias-volta-gpu-ra... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2015/05/19/amd-finally-talks-hbm-memory/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2015/05/19/amd-finally-talks-hb... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/05/03/thing-go-bumpgate-in-the-night-for-nvidias-gp100-pascal-gpu/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/05/03/thing-go-bumpgate-in... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/06/08/nvidia-p100-gpu-update-no-bumps-yet/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/06/08/nvidia-p100-gpu-upda... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/08/01/nvidia-finally-shows-off-working-gp100s/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/08/01/nvidia-finally-shows... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2014/09/15/amds-mantle-api-going-outlive-directx-12/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2014/09/15/amds-mantle-api-goin... it's amazing that people will sniff out a MLID quote from a thousand paces and yet still uncritically babble Charlie's nonsense like it's the word of god. Dude is a stopped clock who occasionally happens to be correct in his NVIDIA/Intel hatewagon, and that's given him enough reputability that he's apparently beyond reproach with a significant portion of the Gaming Public (tm) who are just looking for reasons to be upset about NVIDIA/Intel.
benced 3y ago
Even setting aside the dubious morality of Apple's rules on iOS, I feel like I'm going insane watching Apple be maximally aggressive. The EU loves regulating! There's nothing they love more! It seems supremely unwise to give them additional excuses to do something they clearly want to do anyways.
- patrickmcnamara 3y ago
  Regulatory accelerationism. I never thought it would come from Apple.
- mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
  > Apple be maximally aggressive From an observation standpoint seeing how Microsoft behaved in the 90's and onward, they (Apple) are behaving very similarly - almost exactly with what MS did for Windows back then. I have a growing distaste for Apple corporate/mgmt each day even though I am surrounded by their devices.
  - __loam 3y ago
    Apple has been dragged kicking and screaming into more consumer friendly positions since the iPhone was released. It took years for them to simply switch to a more open charging port standard.
    - swores 3y ago
      Not just years, it took a law requiring it to happen.
    - chgs 3y ago
      Before the iPhone and maybe blackberry the majority of phones used random proprietary charger. The iPhone was the first mass market consumer phone to come with a cable that connected to a standard usb charger.
      - jwells89 3y ago
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Feels like a mob boss sending a message. "We own this platform, we make the rules, and we don't care who you are or how big you are, you mess with us we'll terminate your account and revenue stream." C'mon EU, do something. <poking EU with a stick>
- zshrc 3y ago
  We own this platform, (we built this platform), we make the rules I don't see the issue with this... it's not like they're exploiting an inherited platform like Oracle with (everything), IBM with Red Hat or Broadcom with VMware.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Would you also defend Microsoft of the 90's with the same argument for the similar issue? At least Microsoft had no way of stopping you selling apps for Windows but Apple is a next level of nefarious.
    - zshrc 3y ago
      Microsoft didn't have competition in the 90s. Apple has plenty of competition, they've just built up a competitive advantage which is their fully-integrated platform. Googles been trying to build one on the Pixel for years and haven't come close to their success. Apples been doing this "next level of nefarious" since the App Store's introduction in iPhoneOS 3.0, and it's been fine up to this point, otherwise the platform (and consequentially the apps on these platform -- spotify) wouldn't have thrived the way it did.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >Apple has plenty of competition What competition? Apple has a 87% market share amongst US teenage population[1], Epic's core gamer market. It's basically a monopoly amongst their core demographic which will grow up to be adults with jobs and paycheck and guess what they'll buy? More Apple. With <13% market share Android isn't even in the race. [1] https://www.barrons.com/articles/apple-stock-teens-iphone-e5e58147 https://www.barrons.com/articles/apple-stock-teens-iphone-e5...
lapcat 3y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 (1 hour ago, 72 comments)
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  Mysteriously not on the front page.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    That is indeed strange.
    - testfrequency 3y ago
      I was going to start an Ask HN post on this very thing just this morning, so instead I’ll just reply here. The last few weeks, HN seems to be suppressing Apple headlines. They will be on the front page, but then drop off minutes later - despite being fresh, growing in votes and engagement, and being high quality articles. Meanwhile, positive headlines about OpenAI will be up for hours… Also, don’t blame the mod tools. This should be fixed, that’s not normal
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        I didn’t flag this one, but a lot of the debates wind up with pro-Apple/anti-Apple generalities. Which isn’t interesting. Even in this thread, it’s mostly people expressing outrage and disgust or reflexive dismissal; few actual thoughts.
      - dang 3y ago
        Thank you for not posting an off-topic Ask HN. As the site guidelines ask, you should email hn@ycombinator.com if you want to ask or tell us something (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). There's no special treatment of Apple stories or any other $BigCo stories on HN; the dominant variable is simply random fluctuation. If you're seeing otherwise, it's almost certainly because random fluctuation provides a rich set of datapoints to confirm whatever perception you're inclined towards. Mostly we're all primed to notice, and weight more heavily, the things we dislike. (Endless past explanations about this here, for anyone who cares: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). For example, if you dislike $BigCo then it will seem like negative stories about $BigCo are being suppressed. Indeed there are tons of examples of such stories not staying on the frontpage—but there are also tons of examples of exactly the opposite. How one weights these is a function of one's own perception, which is governed by what one likes and dislikes. People who like $BigCo are just as convinced that HN is biased against $BigCo, and find just as many datapoints to support it, and post just as many complaints about it. These dynamics are as old as the hills and impossible to stop. All we can do is answer specific questions when we happen to see them. I only saw this one randomly; in the future, please use the reliable mechanism (hn@ycombinator.com) to get your question answered. It's not as if any of this is secret!
deleted 3y ago
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hellcow 3y ago
Clearly the recent 1.8B Euro fine the EU levied against Apple didn't send a message. Perhaps the EU needs to ratchet it up by an order of magnitude.
- s3r3nity 3y ago
  Quite an authoritarian take.
  - droopyEyelids 3y ago
    Both sides are authoritarian. One is a private company with more money than most countries, one is an economic union nominally representing the people of many countries. I don't know where I fall on this issue personally, but siding with Apple is probably more authoritarian.
    - BudaDude 3y ago
      People defend Apple like its the underdog. Apple has been Goliath for almost a decade. Apple under Tim Cook is more about making money than it is about making the best product.
      - ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
        Yep and i think the market is saturated, but they still need the number to go up for the big shareholders. I mean they have a gross profit of 150 billion, it's not like this is helping the workers making apple's products and services.
      - ben_w 3y ago
        I'm old enough to remember when they were the underdog. I still find it weird that people spent the last 5 years complaining about practices that started when they still were an underdog, and which were applauded at the time, and which don't even fully apply now to all developers anyway. But you're right, they're not underdogs any more.
    - 3y ago
mountainriver 3y ago
I may get rid of my iPhone, this is just horrible continued behavior on Apple’s part. Nothing can be worth the damage this is doing to their reputation
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  At least thanks to Unreal engine and their content in the PC space, Epic is big enough to survive this, but think of poor small indie devs who can have their revenue streams shut down at any time because $REASON and have no way of fighting back. Apple needs to be brought down a peg or two.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  I'd rather people dump Apple products over their anti-repair practices or the whole concept of locked-downd devices tied to monopolistic App Stores, rather than the Apple vs Epic vs EU fight.
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    This is an Apple vs. developers fight. Epic is just the one spending money on it.
- BudaDude 3y ago
  I have been feeling the same way. Apple has been dropping the ball a lot lately. This whole malicious compliance thing they are doing with the EU is childish. Apple 100% should have lost the court case to Epic the same way Google did.
  - usrusr 3y ago
    When your stock is traded like the stock of a company with a stranglehold on a huge market it can press seemingly at will, what can you do other than pressing? Publicly traded companies are mercenaries bound to the highest bidder, nothing they can do about it.
- wigster 3y ago
granzymes 3y ago
>In the past, Epic has denigrated Apple’s developer terms, including the Developer Program License Agreement (DPLA), as a prelude to breaking them. >Given that pattern, Apple recently reached out directly to Mr. Sweeney to give him an opportunity to explain why Apple should trust Epic this time and allow Epic Games Sweden AB to become an active developer. Mr. Sweeney’s response to that request was wholly insufficient and not credible. From Apple’s letter to Epic.
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MR4D 3y ago
Maybe Epic should just come out with their own Android-based phone and ignore Apple. EDIT - I don’t mean this flippantly. I really think a gaming phone made by Epic would be fantastic. They have some great games that I enjoy, including Rocket League and Fortnite. Would love to see what they could do with a phone, especially how well they did on GM’s Hummer ( https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21506572/epic-games-unreal-engine-general-motors-gmc-hummer-ev-human-machine-interface https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21506572/epic-games-unrea... )
- screamingninja 3y ago
  Something like Steam Deck? https://www.steamdeck.com/ https://www.steamdeck.com/
  - MR4D 3y ago
    No. A phone. EDITED to add for context: Here's my deal - we're locked into 2 basic choices. The choices are fine, but it's like a Ford vs Chevy thing - boring. I really want someone else to com into the market and make a phone feel special. Like when Air Jordan's first came out. Nobody thought about a shoe as being special before that. Red had a phone, but didn't execute as well as I would have expected. Image what a phone would be like from Epic - fantastic UI, great feel in your hand. Like Fortnite? cool, they have one that looks like it came right out of the game. Like Rocket League? Cool - they have one for that too.
    - ambichook 3y ago
      remember the razer phone? that actually looked genuinely interesting, but it got killed off by the time i was in a position to actually buy an expensive phone :<
- RandallBrown 3y ago
  If Microsoft would have called their Windows Phone the Xbox Phone and focused it on gaming, I think they would have been way more successful.
ProfessorLayton 3y ago
Really curious what Apple's end game is here, they must know that being this anticompetitive will bite them pretty hard in the long term.
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davidg109 3y ago
Apple makes incredible products, but their teenage angst corporate temper tantrums are vomit inducing. Might be time to vote with my dollar on other tech.
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leecommamichael 3y ago
Didn’t they only terminate the Swedish account?
supermatt 3y ago
So apple are now deciding who can be an App Store. That’s not going to work out well for them.
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vld_chk 3y ago
Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know. Clear stagnation in terms of innovation; no new fundamental interface (no smart glasses, AVP looks too expensive and too narrow); abandon on car project; AI for Apple is nowhere close to others; sales decrease; Apple Watch sales ban; Epic Games court; DMA — after taking a leading position at the market, Apple clearly fails to offer anything new and instead invest too much resources into protecting their market position. Wonder what will replace Apple. Will we see a slow stagnation here or radically new interface for human-to-technology interaction is around the corner?
- codingcodingboy 3y ago
  Maybe they should make cars.
- jesselawson 3y ago
  Apple has consistently made laptops and development environments that creative types enjoy and admire. It’s too mad our economic system is setup to only care about infinite growth and monopolization at Apple’s size. It’s too bad just “being a great maker of great tools for great people” isn’t possible when you’re publicly traded.
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  > AVP looks too expensive and too narrow I bought the first generation and agree with these points, but boy is it really cool tech. I thought it’d be super gimmicky and dumb before I got it, I changed my mind within a couple of hours after using them. I ended up sending mine back, but only because I bought them to develop vOS apps for it and simply don’t have the time after taking on a new client. I really hope they make a second generation and continue improving on it, I already know I’m going to buy it. (I know it’s ironic hoping they’ll make more of their fledgling platform after I just sent mine back and potentially helped kill it, but I really loved it.)
- hnfong 3y ago
  > Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know. You do rationally realize the cognitive dissonance in your subjective feeling, right? A company that is accused of abusing their market position, competitors trying to break into their platform, isn't an indicator that the company is close to an end at all. If it were really the end of Apple, you'd see something like "Epic withdraws legal claims against Apple due to dwindling interest in developing for iOS platforms".
vardump 3y ago
I've spent ~$7000 on Apple products last year. I think it'll be $0 this year and going forward. Tired of this kind of crap. (Not only this, but Apple's behavior with EU, etc.)
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- bjornlouser 3y ago
  Je suis Sweeney! -- sent from my iPhone
- sergiotapia 3y ago
  I ditched iphones for a Google Pixel 6 when it came out. Ditched my macbook for a Windows 10 beast machine running linux mint in VMWare Player. Flawless. I had _zero_ issues ditching apple. Especially since everyone I speak to uses Whatsapp anyways. This "green bubble" thing never affected me.
- EricE 3y ago
  Who you going to replace them with that's better/same level of ecosystem/user experience? Genuinely interested.
  - vardump 3y ago
    Frankly me too.
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  - vlod 3y ago
    I use terminal, vscode and firefox, docker to do development. Linux (specifically popos) works well for that and a lot of other stuff. For that I use a Thinkpad X1 Carbon.
- drooopy 3y ago
  I am an Apple customer because I have loved using a Mac since before Steve Jobs returned to Apple and made it a trendy luxury item. But I can no longer support with my money "90s Microsoft 2.0".
dang 3y ago
Related: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-epic-s-developer-account https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-e... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729, but we merged that thread hither)
AnonC 3y ago
Though I’m in favor of forcing Apple to do certain things (right to repair, sideloading apps, and more), this is one case where I can’t take a side. Epic (and actually Tim Sweeney), for all its bravado and underdog pretense, is a bad actor, a loose cannon and a dishonest player. Epic Games and Tim Sweeney thrive on drama and theatrics, and somehow seem to be driven solely against Apple while not batting an eyelid when it comes to other platforms where it pays 30% (or more?), such as Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo. [1] I have no sympathy for Epic Games as long as Tim Sweeney and his drama goes on. This doesn’t mean that I believe Apple to be innocent. Tim Sweeney has a grudge against Apple. I don’t see anything more in the history of this saga. [1]: https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/sweeney_hand_waving_game_consoles_app_stores https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/sweeney_hand_waving_game_...
- cuban-frisbee 3y ago
  Sweeney is the only one that seems to have the guts, the smarts and is willing to put his money where his mouth is against Apple and other bad actors. Whataboutism about console gaming is frankly laughable as is the notion that they have to fix all problems by the themselves at once or none of them count.
ynniv 3y ago
Isn't Apple providing side loading for customers in Europe now? Sure, Apple is being petty, but I thought this is was what Epic asked for. Can anyone ELI5 this one?
- foggymtndrifter 3y ago
  All side loaded apps still need to go through Apple notarization. It's malicious compliance from Apple.
- pornel 3y ago
  No. There is no sideloading at all. Apple very begrudgingly allowed creation of alternative AppStores (marketplaces) instead, which are still completely under Apple’s technical control, and still go through Apple’s review. Apple requires having a 1 million dollar credit line to allow opening a 3rd party AppStore, so consumers or small devs can’t just bypass Apple’s AppStore.
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- gray_-_wolf 3y ago
  You still need a developer account and application to be signed by apple in order to be able to side load it. Whether that requirement is legal remains to be seen.
- solarkraft 3y ago
  They aren't actually allowing sideloading, but the ability to install "marketplaces", which can only be provided by verified developers under very strict rules regarding government. It's a huge disappointment.
- plussed_reader 3y ago
  I would think this is a money game where it will force Epic to become a European developer/entity instead of just an American developer, to access the DMA market. More hoops and more BS is entirely on brand for Apfel in this exercise.
mirzap 3y ago
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kylerush 3y ago
There seems to be a libertarian slant to a lot of the comments on this. It reads as if most people believe they have an inalienable right to extend Apple’s products. In other words, it doesn’t matter what I do, what I say, or how I treat Apple, I have an inalienable right to extend their platform. A pretty bold take in my opinion.
- xNeil 3y ago
  i mean, sounds fine? if i buy a physical product, i must be able to do whatever i want to do with it, no? who are apple to decide what i do with a device once i own it?
- kllrnohj 3y ago
  It's not Apple's platform. It's mine. My device, my platform. I allow Apple to install software on my device, but it's my device. I own it, full stop. This whole idea that a company can sell you a product but still retain exclusive ownership and decision making over that thing that they sold you needs to die. It's such an abusive relationship and deeply anti-user.
  - geodel 3y ago
    > deeply anti-user. You mean anti-owner, since you really own the device
jmull 3y ago
I wouldn't pick a side in this one... it looks to me like there are two bad guys here, and I hope they both get taken down a peg.
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- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  Dismantling Apple's Appstore monopoly would positively impact the freedom of users and developers.
  - jmull 3y ago
    Agreed. And Epic is an actively deceptive business partner that forms agreements with the intent to break them. Both bad, as I say.
redbell 3y ago
PG said that a previous tweet by Tim Sweeney is one of the reasons.. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1765431238985187525 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1765431238985187525
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sandoze 3y ago
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chatmasta 3y ago
> According to Epic, Apple reportedly told the company that it’s “a threat to their ecosystem.” Note they're not saying Epic is a security threat or has a product that endangers Apple customers. Instead, they're calling Epic, the company itself, a threat to Apple's ecosystem. This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly."
- Findeton 3y ago
  Monopolies are not a bad thing, except when they are enforced with violence=government. Fortunately no one forces you to use Apple's products.
- wolpoli 3y ago
  To be more specific, it's likely that Epic is a threat to Apple's business/technical ability to steer/shape/profit from the iOS ecosystem.
- pmontra 3y ago
  Actually, replace "ecosystem" with "revenues".
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- andsoitis 3y ago
  I think it is <insert-expletive> to make Epic out to be the villain. At the same time: > This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly." In the US, iPhone has a 57.93% market share. As of 2023, Android has a 70.29% global market share.
  - chatmasta 3y ago
    They have a monopoloy on distribution channels of iOS Apps. There is no way, other than through the App Store, for a developer to sell software to the owner of an Apple device such that the owner can execute that software on their own device.
riidom 3y ago
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Zetobal 3y ago
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ckcheng 3y ago
I wonder why Apple doesn't open up. Or else just switch to a Costco model where membership means they get to dictate what’s sold at what margin using which credit card network? Is the end game to force regulation on everyone (Google, etc) and then switch to a Costco model themselves?
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- akmarinov 3y ago
  Money. Why give up 30% of everything on your store?
- labster 3y ago
  In the immortal words of Rod Blagojevich, “I've got this thing and it's fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for fuckin' nothing. I'm not gonna do it.”
moogly 3y ago
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realusername 3y ago
That hot tempered decision will cost them a lot of money. They were already in a bad situation for essentially making the alternative stores worthless but cutting off Epic over a few tweets will further cement the idea that there's a competition problem going on here, this is also directly contradicting the DMA.
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etimberg 3y ago
Sounds like the EU needs to give Apple the Microsoft treatment and threaten to split it apart. Have the App store business be completely separate from everything else
- repelsteeltje 3y ago
  Last I heard, Microsoft is doing great and still in one piece.
  - kyriakos 3y ago
    After changing course cause of legal troubles they caused by believing they are above the law
    - repelsteeltje 3y ago
      M$ received a modest also with a silk glove. It somewhat curbed what Balmer could do, but never changed his intention. That is to say: I'm hoping the regulators will come down way harder on Apple (and Amazon, Google et al) this time. Apple leadership will need serious intervention to understand that the way they currently operate isn't in their own interest long term. In a sense, I believe regulators better understand the significance of developers, customers, publishers, content owners and advertisers in Apples ecosystem than Apple does.
015a 3y ago
This is egregious and deeply disturbing behavior from Apple. At this point it feels wrong to own an iPhone. I'm at a loss for words describing what Tim and their leadership team has done to this company that I used to admire so much.
- api 3y ago
  They're addicted to bad revenue here. Once they started with the App Store revenue and especially taking a cut on all transactions, they were locked in. It's a public company so number must always go up. If number doesn't go up, executives are gone and replaced with people who will make number go up. That means it's impossible for them to back out of the App Store revenue channel. They'll have to be forced out by government action, in which case they can write it off as unavoidable and appease the shareholders and maybe not be replaced. The basic principle here is that when a company takes on a revenue stream, it becomes addicted to it and it's incredibly difficult to give that revenue stream up even if it's destructive to other aspects of the company or brand. This is very closely related to the innovators' dilemma. In fact that might be seen a special case of the same failure mode. If Apple ever goes really into advertising, that'll really be the end of them as a good brand. Advertising revenue destroys everything it touches. It's possible that they could recover from this debacle but a pivot into ads is the end.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    They already have an ads business, fwiw.
    - AJ007 3y ago
      And ads is the one line of business that is growing. All of the privacy and app tracking restrictions conveniently relate to them having all of the tracking data and third parties not having it. Your data is "private", to everyone except Apple. This is the reason Apple is violently opposing any software coming from sources they don't control. The way the DMA was written is a convoluted joke. It could have been a lot simpler: hardware device makers shouldn't be able to block third party software. A more extreme case could prevent companies over a certain size from manufacturing hardware and the operating system.
casperb 3y ago
I just finished the last episode of The Talk Show podcast, where John Gruber says that Apple doesn’t hold a grudge and is only doing things because they make business sense. He said that because Apple approved Epic’s account and that they would be allowed their own App Store. I already that it was a bad take, but this shows it.
- davely 3y ago
  I find that Gruber occasionally has some interesting insight but it’s often hard to take him seriously these days — he’s effectively an unofficial PR outlet for Apple. (Fun fact: he co-created Markdown with Aaron Swartz) Edit: Swartz not Schwartz
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    It's a sad evolution. Gruber's blog is entitled Daring Fireball and in his early blogging days in the '00s he was in fact pretty daring and posted a lot of criticisms of Apple. Over time he had so thoroughly assimilated himself into the Apple way of thinking that he seldom notices whatever Apple is doing wrong.
    - favorited 3y ago
      > posted a lot of criticisms of Apple His criticisms were all about how the NeXT folks were ruining Apple with their mach-o binaries, file paths & extensions, etc. You'd have thought that Avie Tevanian ran over his dog or something.
    - tibbydudeza 3y ago
      He now gets exclusive 1 on 1 interviews with Apple execs and the blog is a full time job. You got to shill to pay the bills.
    - munificent 3y ago
      Really? I've always considered Gruber to be an Apple fanboy. He might write criticisms, but they read to me like a Deadhead penning an essay on why Aoxomoxoa isn't as good as Terrapin Station or something. Ultimately, Gruber knows his audience is Apple enthusiasts and his material comes from being given access by Apple.
Razengan 3y ago
With all the money Epic has spent, and lost, on this, along with the billions they're making from Fortnite and Unreal, they could have made their own phone and platform by now.
- throwaway2990 3y ago
  It would be trash like their EGS. No one would use it.
etchalon 3y ago
Apple is just acting increasingly stupid. There's no word for it.
- LightHugger 3y ago
  I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior. They have not changed one bit. This was always apple, behavior which everyone who purchased their status symbol focused products at insane markups supported.
  - etchalon 3y ago
    Hard disagree on basically everyone you said beyond this move not being too surprising. Apple holds grudges. Always has. But this is just asking for trouble without any real benefit. Maybe they want the fight, I guess. But it's a dumb fight.
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    > I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior. I’m deeply ingrained in the Apple ecosystem and feel thoroughly unabused right now. But I’m in the US and only watching this play out with mild amusement and schadenfreude at Tim Epic continuing to give and get the middle finger from Apple.
- blashyrk 3y ago
  It's only stupid if it results in some kind of consequences. If not, then they are just flexing, and they seem fairly confident that there won't be any significant consequences for this kind of behavior. Whether that's true, or just extreme hubris, remains to be seen.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
Seems like the message is, sure we lost our case against the EU so we have be more open on the platform/store, but we're just going to ban any developers who even try to take advantage of that. I suppose they're leveraging their duopoly/luxury positions to give everyone the finger. And once again I'm glad I have nothing to do with the Apple ecosystem.
- dilap 3y ago
  They really seem to be making a mockery of the EU regs here. Will the EU respond quickly and forcefully, or (essentially) admit that Apple is too big to regulate?
  - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
    IMO, little column A, little column B. EU is good about bringing lawsuits, but because of how law works, judgments are delayed, appealed, reduced, etc. Eye-watering fines are watered down and don't end up meaning much. Viewing the Big Tech names as nation-states by virtue of the sheer power they hold cuts through a lot of BS when people wonder why they do any action that might seem mind-boggling. It's because they think they can get away with doing it, and how often are they proven wrong?
    - dilap 3y ago
      Turns out it was all column A. https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1765793776692326891 https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1765793776692326891 So, good on the EU. And what the heck are Apple thinking?
      - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
        Again, IMO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39645538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39645538 "I never give any Big Tech with nation-state influence the benefit of the doubt. This is a legal/PR stress test. They failed this one, but they won't fail others."
rebolek 3y ago
The only explanation Apple can give is "Money!!!"
getcrunk 3y ago
I wish there was button I could press so the eu/courts would address this immediately. So I don’t have to wait months/years.
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arthurofbabylon 3y ago
At first I was surprised Epic's shareholders tolerate CEO Tim Sweeney – Epic had this all wrapped up, they got a large portion of what they wanted, but Sweeney just couldn't help but keep the drama going, at risk of their business. But then I realized that Tim Sweeney owns more than half of Epic. If he wants to risk his company for a fracas/kerfuffle, then that is between him and his minority shareholder.
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- yokoprime 3y ago
  I don't think he's risking anything other than having to pay his team of lawyers. Apple is not a major platform for Epic, in fact earnings from sales outside of Windows and consoles is probably so tiny they wouldn't notice it if it disappeared.
  - darknavi 3y ago
    > Apple is not a major platform for Epic Well it's not a platform for Fortnite at all for the last few years.
- justin66 3y ago
  Literally all of Epic's biggest shareholders are on board with treating the problems with Apple as more than a "kerfuffle." They've attracted quite a bit of investment in spite of the ongoing lawsuits.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  Actually I'm sure Tencent is really glad Tim Sweeney is doing this as they make a bunch of games already eg. pubg mobile (partial ownership there I think). Having an alternative story as an option is probably a strategic benefit for them
teekert 3y ago
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bsimpson 3y ago
The raw emails are linked at the bottom of the post. Phil Schiller accuses Epic of intentionally violating its agreements and concludes "Please tell us why we should trust Epic this time." Epic founder Tim Sweeney replies that Epic "will comply" and offers to provide "any specific further assurances." Finally, Apple's lawyers tell Epic's lawyers that Apple is terminating the account because a judgement in Epic v Apple says they can, and that Tim did't sufficiently plead his case in his reply to Phil.
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diebeforei485 3y ago
This will not fly in the EU. I am actually very annoyed about their behavior. My next phone will likely not be an iPhone. All the paid apps are subscription based now anyway, it's quite easy to switch.
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- sandoze 3y ago
  Yikes, you might be disappointed: https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/google-asks-judge-overturn-epic-games-antitrust-verdict-2024-02-02/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/google-asks-judg... I hear Huawei makes nice phones.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    android can sideload
  - batrat 3y ago
    You can install any store (ex: fdroid, aurora, etc) on Android already.
    - pelorat 3y ago
      Yes, but no-one does. Those stores only make sense if you have installed a de-googled AOSP, and their offering is maybe half a percent of what's on Google Play. It's an option for hackers, tinkerer and developers. I guess it's nice the option exist, but in practice it make no difference. Most consumers are not even aware that you can sideload apps or that there's alternative app stores.
      - PreachSoup 3y ago
        But the point is always about the capability. I am using Android because ios is lacking the things I want. For example, granular volume control ( even the lowest volume on iphone is still too high for me sometimes), firefox
naet 3y ago
There are a lot of conversations about Apple's "monopoly" on smart phones and I always find it so interesting. I used to use an iPhone, then switched to an android a few years ago, and I felt like there was basically full feature parity between the two of them. I'm not aware of any "killer app" or other use case that elevates one significantly over the other. They both have app stores with all the most popular apps, web browsers, nice cameras, phone calls and messages, etc. So it seems to me like there are plenty of alternatives if you don't want an iPhone that are just as good and often more affordable. Globally Android has a larger market share than iPhone, but iPhones seem to have a "social" factor that pushes them heavily in certain demographics (particularly any intersection of wealthy, young, and US American). Something about this social factor makes it feel to many people like a complete monopoly with no alternative even though there are tons of alternative phone models made by many other companies. For me, of course I think it would be great if iPhones were better compatible with things like RCS chat, open app stores, USB instead of proprietary chargers, etc. But I feel like that can all be worked out long term by the market instead of pushing regulation on one specific company. If any of those things bother you just get a non iOS phone, and if they're truly bad things over time more and more people will gravitate away from the company until they change. If Apple wants to make certain decisions around remaining a walled garden I think they should be able to (and there are arguments that their strategy could make their product better for certain audiences rather than worse, even if we might disagree with the take).
honeybadger1 3y ago
Apple, not unlike a modern-day ecclesiastical authority, excommunicates a heretic who dares to challenge its scripture.
DueDilligence 3y ago
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vlod 3y ago
Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool. (Pirate flags on building etc). Previously MSFT used to be (maybe they've turned that around?) the most hated tech company (becz of their very aggressive attitudes to competitors especially Netscape). One thing they didn't FU and is represented by the infamous sweaty Balmer video [0] of him shouting "Developers, developers, developers", is pissing of people who build on their platform. Well Apple seems to have topped that with this and other malicious compliance shenanigans in the EU. I can't every imagine developing an iOS/native app on that platform going forward. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs
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- dmitrygr 3y ago
  From working at apple, I remember that most engineers just work hard to make good hardware and software. I've heard very few mentions of what anyone outside of apple thinks of it
  - 7moritz7 3y ago
    You'd assume making good hardware and software requires outside feedback. "Thoughts", one might say.
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- xk_id 3y ago
  Apple has been driving developers away for quite some time now https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966135
- mataug 3y ago
  > Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool. Most employees are trying to pay bills and keep ar roof. Especially in today's tech job market, people are trying to avoid getting laid off. Very few people have the luxury of being able to think about apple seeming like a cool place to work or not. So I would say this doesn't affect most apple employees in anyway.
nottorp 3y ago
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Ancalagon 3y ago
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camdenlock 3y ago
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wkat4242 3y ago
Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :') So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading. But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.
- tebbers 3y ago
  There’s no way the EU allows Apple’s interpretation of the DMA after they did this, Apple really made a mistake here. As you say, how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Made a mistake, why? They either comply right away, or just pretend to be deaf with their own interpretation, make Epic sue them again, pull the situation for a few years keep profiting off developers with their 30% rent, maybe at the end of it the EU will fine them some peanut and the rest is just profit, can’t understand what the mistake is here
    - andyferris 3y ago
      The potential fines aren’t peanuts. From memory, they are up to like 12% on global annual revenue (not profit), or something.
      - lnxg33k1 3y ago
        Ah didn’t know it, that would be cool, fingers crossed
  - mike_d 3y ago
    > how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON? The EU law allows for consumers to sideload other app stores on hardware they control. It has no provision that compels Apple to continue doing business with a company in their own app store. Yes, it is a business decision you need to make to offer a sideload app store and opt-out of the Apple app store. Does it suck for Epic? Yes. But this is the path they chose. Edit: If you read the Apple letter Epic cites it refers to App Store Review Guidelines, clearly they are terminating an App Store developer account. Nothing stops Apple from minting a fresh Developer Account with only Marketplace capabilities if they apply for a Marketplace account.
Ancalagon 3y ago
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andsoitis 3y ago
This is going to be an epic battle. Speak truth to power.
jarsin 3y ago
Haven't seen much discussion about Unreal Engine here. Epic stated in court filings that it would consider Unreal a failed business if it lost the ability to maintain unreal for ios. Many 3d enterprise apps need to run on ipads. This is hughe blow to unreal.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  They f'ed around and found out.
zengid 3y ago
This is some spicy shit from Apple: > “In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them,” Schiller reminds the game maker in the letter dated February 23, 2024. “You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple’s rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance as ‘hot garbage,’ a ‘horror show,’ and a ‘devious new instance of Malicious Compliance.’ And you have complained about what you called ‘Junk Fees’ and ‘Apple taxes.”
- pavlov 3y ago
  Somehow I doubt that the EU competition authority will appreciate Apple’s logic that criticizing their implementation of pro-competition regulation is valid grounds for preventing a competitor from accessing said implementation. It’s like if your parents forced you to give a slice of your birthday cake to your little brother, and in spite you intentionally cut him a slice with no frosting. When he complains, you go: “No cake for you then!”
  - ineedaj0b 3y ago
    but epic was spitting on the cake. neither party is holy here
  - plandis 3y ago
    > In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them That sounds like a legitimate reason to not do business with Epic to me?
    - pavlov 3y ago
      Epic’s past behavior didn’t occur in the EU and was aimed at getting Apple to make the kind of concessions that the EU is now forcing upon them. Epic seems to have followed the letter of the DMA by setting up a European subsidiary that deals with Apple’s European subsidiary. My feeling is that the antitrust people at the European Commission won’t be happy with Apple’s refusal to give them access.
- 3y ago
seydor 3y ago
What a monster big tech has become.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  It is probably a good description of what society has become, there are a lot of people who go on repeating that these big tech are just corporations for profit and don’t have to signal any good intention, because it doesn’t make them any profit, and being bad doesn’t make them lose any profit, because we’ve become just a bunch of ignoring consumers going after the next gadget blindly, these companies are shit, because it doesn’t cost them anything anymore What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain, like they’re the ones who are buying these overpriced crap, then being squeezed of 30% every time they get an app, who they think is going to pay for the apple tax at the end of the day
  - idle_zealot 3y ago
    > What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain Because the costs and detriments are obscured, dispersed, and nebulous. The consumers here are largely boiled frogs who don't know what they're missing. If users were used to an open system; an app store that functioned as an intuitive frontend for multiple distribution channels, a messaging app that supported all the protocols their friends and family use and seamlessly joined their conversations, a social media app that aggregated all the content from the people in their lives and creators they follow, and documents/photos/etc that sync across all of their devices. And then Apple et al took that all away; now you can only have apps we approve of, now all of your chats are split between platform apps with UIs that compete for your attention and try to upsell you features, now you have to use the Twitter app to read tweets (and see our ads), Instagram to see your friends' posts their (and our ads), YouTube to see new videos (and our ads), Twitch to watch people live (and our ads), oh, and also now all of your photos only sync to some of your other devices (the ones we sold you). Then you'd see outrage and indignation. iSheep don't know what is being kept from them, don't understand how cohesive and empowering a digital interface to the world should be. They have been trained not to expect a User Agent, but instead an appliance that allows them access to little islands and digital fiefdoms. And it isn't just Apple device users that are subjected to this. Apple is the most rigid in licking down their computers, but all major platforms add friction and roadblocks meant to discourage users from owning and tailoring their systems.
anigbrowl 3y ago
'You get in the car to go to the store. The car drives you to church instead, because the store has mysteriously exploded.' https://avaruusmies.com/jokes/if-operating-systems-ran-your-car.html https://avaruusmies.com/jokes/if-operating-systems-ran-your-...'
dann0 3y ago
First, it’s weird that anyone would take the side of Epic in any argument. Second, it’s obvious that no one had actually read the article. Epic admitted that they have deliberately broken the App Store rules. That’s enough to have anyone sanctioned in any system. Apple are certainly not unimpeachable here, but this blind hatred of Apple is out of control. At least get the facts close to right before spewing your uninformed BS.
- deleted 3y ago
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- kanwisher 3y ago
  Epic broke the rules 3 years ago, they were reinstated recently cause of the european union decision. They haven't done anything to break the rules except write a tweet complaining about apple. I don't see how apple has any footing in this argument
ineedaj0b 3y ago
epic is being a dick. you don't usually be a dick like this and expect zero repercussions. this is akin to apple and samsung making up but one party or both parties running to the media and calling each other a 'ch*nk, slant eyes' or whatever colorful language Samsung would paint the american apple... you can insult in business speak! it's common, but epic decided on normal speak --- is it because sweeney is pulling an Elon? Or is this a sign there are others movements the public is not aware that epic is doing? I would bet on the latter. I don't think this is a big deal. But I do wonder if fortnite is struggling more than expected and maybe there's an options play I should begin looking into
zmmmmm 3y ago
In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin? I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlled ecosystem that I fundamentally disagree with, I can't stomach it. There's something visceral about giving a company that exerts this obnoxious level of control complete control of every photon entering your eyeballs. So Apple, in case you ever care, you are at -1 Vision Pro users.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  But this isn't about quality at all. It's about Apple trying to milk the system for all it's worth. You can absolutely build a great product w/o trying to maximize profits to the extreme. That's just frowned upon in the current business world.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  Quality and openness are not in tension at all. I can buy cheap third party brake pads for a BMW, it doesn't make the OEM any less "obsessive" about quality.
- echelon 3y ago
  Apple views every instruction executing on iPhone as something they own, control, and tax. It'd be cute if iPhone was a toy used by a million people. However, mobile computing has become a cornerstone of modern communications and societal function. You use these devices to book flights, buy goods, order food (at restaurants), date, do banking, send texts, emails, -- literally everything. And Apple controls and taxes all of it. All the innovation. All the connections. Everything. And they control how you write and deploy that software. It's a game of constantly jumping through hoops and stressing out over release trains. With a press of a button, a change in policy, Apple can nuke your product from orbit. And there's not a thing you can do. And Google, even with their "unlocked APK installs", isn't really any different. This is a new kind of monopoly. A solid chunk of the connective tissue of our planet and species is controlled, taxed, and ruled over by two overlord companies. I am so glad the Internet itself isn't like this. Except, these devices practically are the internet for many or most folks. So these to, in a way, do control and tax the internet.
jamiedumont 3y ago
John Gruber's take: https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_account https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...
- dsgnr 3y ago
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popcalc 3y ago
Hypothetically, what if a multinational like Apple just doesn't pay the fines, assuming they have no subsidiary presence? Will they go after their EU-resident payment processors and infra providers? Apple's market cap is important enough to the U.S. economy that I wouldn't be surprised if our intelligence community sabotages the DMA. We've done this for Boeing, why can't we do it here? https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-secret-past https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-...
- SSLy 3y ago
  Apple has enough subsidies in EU, starting with 5G modem developers purchased from Intel.
jasonlfunk 3y ago
https://twitter.com/aarongraves/status/1765441652120834112 https://twitter.com/aarongraves/status/1765441652120834112 Apple’s justification isn’t too unreasonable.
nojvek 3y ago
Meanwhile US FTC is totally asleep at the wheel. What is Lina Khan even doing? Apple is clearly being a bully in daylight.
- brikym 3y ago
  This is why I sold my APPL stock a few weeks back. The experience on iPhone is shit. The web is broken on Safari. They broke PWAs. The vision pro is not a big hit. The notification system on MacOS is a poor experience as it gets in my way all the time. Apple want to extort devs to build apps. The arm macbook chips are amazing but that's old news now. Too much abuse of their customers and not much innovation. It has since slid 10% and I'm not surprised.
  - tatrajim 3y ago
    > The vision pro is not a big hit. You have verified sales statistics? Why are users around the world clamoring for vision pros in their countries? Why are Chinese entrepreneurs renting out vision pros by the hour? My wife and I marvel at the vision pro experience. https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-vision-pro-china-rentals-report-2024-2#:~:text=Chinese%20denizens%20can%20rent%20the,their%20hands%20on%20the%20headset https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-vision-pro-china-renta....
  - ectospheno 3y ago
    I love my iphone more than any other tech device I own. Can you elaborate on "The experience on iPhone is shit"? Seems like hyperbole to me.
    - bogdan 3y ago
      Fish don't know they're in water until they're out of it. See Android.
      - Epskampie 3y ago
        I switched a few years ago. The realistic non-hyperbole take is that iOS and Android are really, really similar. Only real difference is Firefox, is that turns out nicely on iOS I might try the other side again.
textadventure 3y ago
Actual source: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-epic-s-developer-account https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-e...
paulddraper 3y ago
This is the tweet that Apple cited as warranting removal from the App Store: > Apple leadership faces some massive decisions in the coming weeks as the contradictions between their stated principles and the intended and actual consequences of their present policies are reckoned with: the app store monopoly, the digital goods payments monopoly, the tax, the suppression of true information about competing purchasing options, the blocking of competing web browser engines and outright destruction of web apps. > It doesn’t have to be this way. Apple is a few bold and visionary decisions away from being the company they once were and that they still advertise themselves to be: beloved brand to consumers, partner to developers, and overlord to none. [1] Damn, that's probably the least caustic tweet I've ever read on Twitter... Ruthless. [1] https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1762243725533532587 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/176224372553353258...
- jamiedumont 3y ago
  I was expecting a full on rage-tweet too. Must have hit one of Apples sore spots.
DueDilligence 3y ago
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turboturbo 3y ago
Gruber has a good take on this: [1] > That Tim Sweeney tweet cited as an example doesn’t seem out of line to me. [...] Apple ought to stick to Epic’s deliberate breaking of the App Store rules with Fortnite back in 2020. It’s not even in dispute that they flagrantly broke the rules then. If Apple wants to make that a “lifetime” ban, they should just say so. > Citing recent tweets, like Sweeney’s, that are simply critical — even scathingly critical (or to borrow Schiller’s term, “colorful”) — just makes it look like Apple’s policy is that if a developer criticizes the App Store’s rules, Apple will punish them for speaking out. I don’t think that’s Apple’s policy at all, but some people think it is, and this situation with Epic just reinforces that. [1] https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_account https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...
- justin66 3y ago
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- throwaway2990 3y ago
  Na. Not a good take. Apple already said the reason was because they had revoked epics account for breaking rules and did so after being made aware of the account from Timmy boys tweets. Anything else is just Timmy adding fuel to the fire which reinforces apples decision to not allow epic to have an account. Timmy is desperately trying to become steam.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Must be a rough news cycle for you, this morning.
  - shippintoboston 3y ago
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fennecbutt 3y ago
Why is it okay for Apple to ban Epic but allow other devs when it would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers?
- ksec 3y ago
  >would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers? Not entirely sure why that would be illegal? You can argue Apple cant do that because there are only two Smartphone ecosystem. But there are plenty of OLED display supplier out there.
  - fennecbutt 3y ago
    There are, but none are as desirable as Samsung. If Apple wanted it to, it could fall under refusal to deal, Apple are very good at twisting courts to their advantage. Remember when I think it was iPhone 11 or something, they had to use LG and Samsung screens to meet demand, but the consumer reaction was for people desperately trying to hunt down units with a Samsung screen because the quality was noticeably better. Samsung is probably Apple's biggest competitor, you can bet that they would most certainly rather pay LG, or literally anybody other than Samsung if they could, right?
- wtallis 3y ago
  Samsung could probably get away with not selling displays to Apple if they had successfully sued Apple for breach of contract related to selling displays to Apple. But it's a lot more plausible that Samsung would still want to take Apple's money even if their relationship were worse.
scotty79 3y ago
Customer! We won't sell you electricity even if you abide by our stated arbitrary rules because we frankly don't like you and you've said mean things about us.
elephantum 3y ago
Interesting, is there a possibility of something like class-action where iPhone owners sue Apple for restricting access to Fortnite? I bet there should be a plenty of angry gamers.
leptons 3y ago
Apple doing Apple things.
Grimblewald 3y ago
more empty words from the king of the glasscastle
Arnt 3y ago
Apple wanting a cut of everything is… well, it's nothing new anyway. We all have our opinions about that, and this event isn't going to change anyone's mind about that. Apple not trusting Epic is another, and the wording suggests that Apple thinks third parties would agree. What's that about?
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lenkite 3y ago
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TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
Apple seems to be very scared that Epic's App Store might have been working. So much so, that they are going to risk another huge fine from EU.
- chrisjj 3y ago
  Perheps Apple judges the fine less than the likely loss the the Epic store.
DueDilligence 3y ago
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swat535 3y ago
In other news, Apple continues its quest of suicide. I can't decide who do I hate more? Epic, desperately attempting to portray their acts as Holy sacrifices by being martyred in the hands of blood thirsty, evil Apple corporation or perhaps Apple double downing with malicious compliance, scummy tactics and lording their mob-boss like attitude towards EU and its citizens? Meanwhile people here are arguing over which sport team they belong to rather than the actual issue at hand which is the fact that computing ownership is being taken away from normal people by tech companies and frankly all of them are at fault (Amazon, Google, Apple, Epic, Ubisoft,..). You no longer own anything, you have to rent it and smile. You are prohibited from modifying the devices you purchase or even attempt to repair it. Your movies and music libraries can be removed by the whims of the corporation and your books can be deleted should an executive feel like it does not align with the DEI flavor of de jours My point is this, computing is no longer a niece for nerds and people literally have their lives tied to these systems and devices. We are in serious trouble if strong laws and regulations are not implemented (not only within EU but frankly everywhere) to prevent these corporations taking away people's rights, privacy and freedoms. I don't know how this will pan out but the silver lining is that it may start a discussion at the world stage regarding these issues.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  Things will have to get a lot bleaker before they can even stand a chance of getting better.
miga 3y ago
Apple is a monopolist on a service that is public. Termination of developer account in this case merits FTC action.
- Copernicron 3y ago
  Citation needed. Apple is not a monopolist. The judge in the Epic Games suit even said so[0]. It also isn't a public service. It's a private service operated by a private company where you have to pay to play. And part of paying means agreeing to certain terms and conditions before you're allowed access. Violating that agreement is grounds for termination of your access. [0]https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036043886/apple-fortnite-epic-games-ruling-explained https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036043886/apple-fortnite-epi...
  - erichocean 3y ago
    > by a private company Apple is, in fact, a public company. As a US-based company, there are many things that Apple is not able to do——for example, they cannot refuse to sell to Black people, despite violating Apple's freedom to "associate" with whoever they want, for whatever "private" reason they may have. The US government can decide that Apple must provide equal access to all of its citizens, and in fact, the 14th Amendment and the various Civil Rights acts that it enables seems to require that every company that sells "to the public" treat members of the public equally.
croes 3y ago
Pretty bad timing of Apple if they tried to avoid to look like hindering competition.
hipadev23 3y ago
We need some competition in the mobile/tablet space. Apple hardware and performance is incredible. Google is inept at best and getting worse.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  > Google is inept at best and getting worse. Hard disagree. I've used Pixel phones for years and they're generally great phones. Biggest previous complaint was their software upgrade support window was too short, but now they offer 7 years of upgrades.
  - hipadev23 3y ago
    Pixel phones imo are like gaming on linux. Yes it’s passable, yes it’s getting better, but if you’re fooling yourself if you think it’s comparable to gaming on Windows.
    - burnte 3y ago
      Pixels phones are some of the best Android phones on the market. Unlike gaming on Linux, Pixel phones run everything in the Android ecosystem quite well, as they are intended. If you're going to compare it to gaming on linux, then Pixel phones are the Steamdecks of that world;
    - willsmith72 3y ago
      Tbh as someone who's bounced between Nexus, iPhone and Pixel, I really don't think so All ios users say the same as you the first time they use a pixel, but it's the same when an android user tries an iPhone. They're extremely different experiences, far more different than we expect (because on the surface they're both smartphones), and we mistake the differences for general shittiness. Overall I probably prefer ios by a small margin, but people like what they're used to
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Useless analogies are just useless analogies. Care to explain, with specifics, why you feel that way? The Pixel has a fantastic camera (e.g. https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/google-pixel-7-vs-apple-iphone-14-camera-comparison-test/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/google-pixel-7-vs-apple...), and it's "smart calling features" (e.g. better handling of spam calls, transcripts for call menus, "hold for me", etc.) are hugely important features for me.
tailspin2019 3y ago
> But Apple told Ars that Epic Games Sweden's access to a developer account was granted through a "click through" agreement that was not evaluated by Apple management. I’ve never heard this type of argument before. Presumably Apple considered their “click through agreement” suitable for developers to “click through” and agree to.
- concinds 3y ago
  It means Apple would never have approved the Epic Sweden account if management had known, and for the past 3 weeks they were just looking for excuses to backtrack. Which is supported by the fact that they justified the new ban with "they'd just break our terms again!" If you really believed that, Apple, you'd wait, and ban Epic Games Sweden after they broke your terms, which minimizes legal risk. They don't believe their own FUD.
rdtsc 3y ago
> "Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again," Epic said in its statement today. The retaliation is shady, but is the retaliation illegal? Even if a whistleblower would show an Apple internal conversation that looks like "Let's retaliate against Epic", the fine print everyone probably has some "we can terminate the account for any reason" clause, which would include retaliation as well?
- warkdarrior 3y ago
  DMA requires that (stated informally) large enough online marketplaces do not retaliate against developers or users without a good cause.
  - TillE 3y ago
    The DMA requires that companies like Apple provide fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory access for competition. The account is really neither here nor there, it's only an issue because Apple has chosen to make it a requirement to distribute an app marketplace. It's pretty clear that they can't legally freeze out Epic as a competitor, but how they solve that is up to them.
    - threeseed 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        Apple is being unfair and unreasonable, and they literally just walked back this decision within 24 hours of you vehemently defending it. As good a time as any to ask yourself; why do you defend a company you don't understand?
      - awesomeMilou 3y ago
        It remains to be seen if Apple's developer agreement is valid under EU law.
havkom 3y ago
I think Apple holds developers and third parties to “click through” agreements, so I hope Epic does the same towards Apple (it there has been any breach). Feels like it is a weak legal argument (even though some jurisdictions may have special “ticket cases” doctrines). It is not Epics concern if Apple by mistake would enter into a contract with them or not. It is up to Apple to whom they offer such agreements and how.
willsmith72 3y ago
I'm so glad a big player is pushing Apple's buttons, but I do wish they didn't have the Tencent, and thus Chinese government, ownership stake. There's just always going to be a trust issue there
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Bringing up the Chinese government card is weird in this specific fight. Epic could get away with moving their shares from Tencent to somewhere else, Apple can't move their core manufacturing from China to anywhere else.
deleted 3y ago
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stevage 3y ago
It strikes me as very weird that it supposedly took weeks for Apple management to learn that Epic had acquired a developer account.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  Desparate obfuscation in recent PR statements. 24 hours ago, they were more straightforward about ex. getting Epic on a phone call to confirm via voice they'd follow the rules just a few days ago. Back when they were proud of it and thought it'd be smooth sailing.
- deleted 3y ago
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970 points by madtrax 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

> Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan.

andersa 3y ago
Not a valid reason to terminate it.
- bunbun69 3y ago
  Are you believing a “trust me bro” comment?
  - archagon 3y ago
    Say what you want about Tim Sweeney, but he has integrity.
    - twoodfin 3y ago
      In what sense did the submarine delivery of functionality clearly in violation of their contract with Apple—the inspiring incident for all this drama—represent integrity?
      - archagon 3y ago
        It was very obviously intended as a launch pad for the lawsuit, not a genuine attempt to skirt App Store rules.
        twoodfin 3y ago
        If my contractual partners were to violate agreements I had entered into in good faith in order to gain PR advantage in a pre-planned legal dispute, I wouldn't tend to think of them as displaying integrity.
        archagon 3y ago
        Yes, from the perspective of a corporation being sued for acting unethically, Sweeny lacks integrity. I’m not sure that reflects poorly on Sweeny’s character.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Apple says they did it for no reason other than that they could, not because Epic violated anything. > “Epic’s egregious breach of its contractual obligations to Apple led courts to determine that Apple has the right to terminate ‘any or all of Epic Games’ wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games’ control at any time and at Apple’s sole discretion.’ In light of Epic’s past and ongoing behavior, Apple chose to exercise that right.” https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/06/apple-terminates-epic-games-developer-account-calling-it-a-threat-to-the-ios-ecosystem/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/06/apple-terminates-epic-game...
    - lsaferite 3y ago
      > no reason other than that they could That's statement is wrong given the quote you posted right after. They clearly state it's due to perceived breaches of contractual obligations. FWIW, I have no horse in the race, just pointing out what I would assuming is a misapprehension in your statement.
      - Jensson 3y ago
        That quote didn't show the whole part, I realized it looks a bit strange out of context there. Here I'll break it down with some more: > Schiller suggests that Epic’s “colorful criticism” combined with its past actions “strongly suggests that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules.” So, the main transgression here was "colorful criticism", that is the ongoing behavior by epic, nothing about safety or contractual breeches. If they believed Epic would break contract they would have banned them 5 years ago when that breech happened, not now, nobody can argue that a 5 year old breech of contract on another account actually warrants a random ban of this account today.

sidewndr46 3y ago

This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any reason and not disclose it.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
Given the DMA, Apple are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. If they can kick off anyone who decides to do that, then the law is entirely pointless (and the EU commission are likely to be upset).
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  Sure, they are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. They can also add any number of other policies which you probably run afoul of several times a day. Then terminate you for that. You can still develop your app store, you just can't break all the rules to develop your app store.
  - afavour 3y ago
    ...which is exactly the kind of thing the EU Commission will punish them for. If they create a bunch of new rules and only punish those who are developing their own app stores they haven't given themselves a magic get out of jail free card, it'll be very obvious to everyone what is going on.
  - stale2002 3y ago
    > Then terminate you for that And then the EU takes them to court and fines them billions of dollars. The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force.
    - nozzlegear 3y ago
      > The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force. But surely the US would not just stand still either while the rest of the world plunders one of its most successful megacorps/source of American influence.

retskrad 3y ago

Why are investors seemingly blind to the fact that Apple is fighting tooth and nail to protect their App Store revenue (while looking like jackasses in the court of public opinion and pissing off regulators and their relationship with developers) because if the App Store money in their pocket dries up, all hell breaks loose because all of their hardware products are no longer growing. The stock will crash and the executive team will be in trouble.

NBJack 3y ago
Pretty sure the savvy investors know this. But why would they kill the golden goose?
- observationist 3y ago
  A walled garden is difficult and expensive to maintain. In Apple's case, it also requires a constant battle against the public interest, because they've carved out various niches in domains that intrude on interoperability, consumer rights, privacy, censorship, surveillance, tax evasion, child slavery, and so on. If they cede ground, they lose money, so they develop and execute strategies that minimize or mitigate loss in conjunction with maximizing gain. Apple has no principles or ethics or morals to which it is bound; it's governed by an optimization algorithm that pits the profit incentive against the constraints of resources, legislation, and their public image. Apple's only as effective as the humans who execute their assigned roles within the overall algorithm, so the organization is subject to the usual human weaknesses and foibles. Pride. Arrogance. Bullheadedness. Complacency. If these weaknesses infect the culture, spreading across many roles, then many things can degrade and spin out of control. Apple is just as mortal and vulnerable as MySpace, Yahoo, Sears, Blockbuster, or any other big company or institution. Without the advantages afforded by the unsavory, unethical, and unprincipled aspects of their business, Apple might not be able to maintain their walled garden effectively. Apple's particular variety of golden goose may not continue to be compatible with the markets in which it currently dominates, since much of the regulation, litigation, and legislation will focus on Apple's effects on the world. Lots of things could happen outside their control that would kill the golden goose. Lots more things could happen if they fall prey to human failure modes.

flik 3y ago

[flagged]

martinsnow 3y ago

[flagged]

Fin_Code 3y ago

Sounds like they violated a non disparagement clause and signaled they will not adhere to policy. All they had to do is keep quiet and launch to minimize their liability. Guess they will need to fight in the EU to see if they can claw back.

jefftk 3y ago
Where are you seeing a non disparagement clause?
andersa 3y ago
A non-disparagement clause is not valid under the DMA.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Perhaps Apple needs to separate geographies in its account setup. Let Epic have the EU account, but disable them everywhere else. Because in the US/Asia, Epic has no DMA protections.
  - andersa 3y ago
    This is indeed about an EU-specific account by Epic Games Sweden.
- otterley 3y ago
  Do you have a legal citation for this assertion?
BearOso 3y ago
There's no chance the DMA includes a non disparagement clause. That's totally against free speech.
- Kluggy 3y ago
  I don’t understand how free speech relates to the DMA?

rvz 3y ago

Here we go again...

frankjr 3y ago

> (...) the U.S. judgment expressly provides that "Apple has the contractual right to terminate (...) Yeah good luck with that in an EU court.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ajaimk 3y ago

They got kicked out for willingly breaking the rules in the past. Not for criticizing Apple. Actions have consequences.

NBJack 3y ago
From the article: > Apple said one of the reasons they terminated our developer account only a few weeks after approving it was because we publicly criticized their proposed DMA compliance plan. Apple cited this X post from this thread written by Tim Sweeney. Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
lxgr 3y ago
The difference is that Apple is now largely no longer in control of the rules, at least in the EU. It seems like they haven't come to terms with that yet.
Moldoteck 3y ago
so apple gave them green light _after_ breaking the rules and decided to go uno reverse after several weeks to red light the epic, because epic criticized apple, lol)

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hizanberg 3y ago

If I had a Customer that spent years relentlessly complaining about my Company, I know I wouldn't want to have them as a Customer. It does present an interesting question on whether a Company can be forced to have a bad actor as a Customer, I guess this will be decided in the lawsuits to come.

archagon 3y ago
If your company has a market segment captured, you should not have any right to do that, irrespective of your feelings.
ajross 3y ago
App vendors aren't customers. They don't pay Apple anything more than the license fees for Xcode. The app's users are the customers, and if you start throwing out the partners you lose customers. Now, sure, the calculus might change depending on your relationship with each partner, but you absolutely cant say that Epic doesn't bring revenue to Apple. They do.
ginko 3y ago
Epic isn't apple's customer. They just use their tools.
andersa 3y ago
Your company is likely not considered a core platform service, so your analogy is not relevant.
_fat_santa 3y ago
The key difference I see in Apple's app store business is that it's a monopolistic marketplace model. If Apple allowed an alternative to the app store then this wouldn't be an issue. Take Microsoft and Windows as an example, they have the Microsoft store which operates as a marketplace with rules but they don't get the same scrutiny because there are alternatives. Don't like what MS is doing with their app store? Fine just release the binary yourself. With Apple though, the bring it on themselves by having a monopolistic marketplace. Since they are the sole gatekeeper to getting apps on the iDevices, there is no alternative like there is in the MS ecosystem. Apple could end all scrutiny tomorrow if they allowed a way to install apps on iDevices that bypassed the app store and Epic would have no case.

datadeft 3y ago

We need % of revenue based punishment for such acts to see fast this attitude can change.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

andrewmcwatters 3y ago

Whether or not Tim Sweeney has a legal leg to stand on, I'm so happy he keeps fighting this. Likewise with Spotify. I love that the EU is pushing legislation to give at least some people back control of their devices. I'm curious why Tim Cook thinks Apple can continue to treat developers they way they do for years on end and it won't slowly but surely come to bite them hard one day.

zozbot234 3y ago
Look, this is confusing. Can I just call them Tim Epic and Tim Apple?
- coolspot 3y ago
  Yes, mr. President
zyang 3y ago
Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll.
- hu3 3y ago
  > Tim Sweeney could lead by example and remove Unreal royalty fees and make his app store free for all. There's no freedom fighter here. Just another greedy troll. -zyang Unreal Engine is free up to $1 million revenue and 5% after that. How is that a "greedy troll"?
- adrr 3y ago
  Why is it bad for people to profit off their work? You can use unreal engine for non-commercial use for free. The source is open.

andersa 3y ago

The fines Apple is going to collect for intentionally failing to comply with the DMA are going to be of Epic proportions, exceeding any profit they could have gotten by continuing to steal 30% from society. Ready your popcorn buckets for the next few months/years. They will likely be making an example out of Apple - after all Apple and Google are the reason for this legislation to exist in the first place. > In the non-compliance decision, the Commission may impose on a gatekeeper fines not exceeding 10 % of its total worldwide turnover in the preceding financial year where it finds that the gatekeeper, intentionally or negligently, fails to comply with [...]

samatman 3y ago
Sounds like Apple should exit the European market then. No one is forcing them to do business there, and it only accounts for 10% of their revenue.
- hu3 3y ago
  Apple bent over pretty hard to stay in China [1] and they'll do the same for EU. Because if they don't, the network effects of an entire important continent without Apple's strong presence would be devastating long-term. [1]: - "Apple tells suppliers to use 'Taiwan, China' or 'Chinese Taipei' to appease Beijing" https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/05/apple_warns_suppliers_in_taiwan/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/05/apple_warns_suppliers... - "The problem with canceling Jon Stewart: Apple bowed to Chinese government censorship" https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/10/26/jon-stewart-apple-tv-show-canceled-china-government-censorship/71298946007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2023/10/26/jon... - "Apple pulls Taiwanese flag emoji from iPhones in Hong Kong" https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-10-08/apple-taiwan-flag-emoji-iphones-hong-kong https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-10-08/apple-taiw...
  - matwood 3y ago
    Using China as a comparison doesn't work b/c Apple manufacturing is so intertwined with China. There is no Apple without China right now.

mrtksn 3y ago

I wonder why Apple doesn't open up their platforms to have everything best on their devices instead of fighting and agonising developers and governments. Yes yes, the commission is nice but they might be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I mean, Apple is amazingly good in some areas but in some other areas their products are used only because they don't give a choice and they intent to keep it this way. They also want to control everything and provide all the services. A bit short sighted and futile IMHO because the competition is catching up with their user experience but Apple doesn't catch up as quickly with the "smart" bits of the modern tech. I recall a Steve Jobs speech about Apple doing a few things %20 better and other things worse and how he intents to change this by embracing the industry standards because they simply can't do everything by themselves. I feel like Apple is doing the same mistake again where their products are becoming slightly better at few things and worse in others simply because you can't have the better stuff installed on Apple devices.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
Steve hated industry standards. The only time he ever said anything else was when every web site in the world ran on flash and iphone couldn't do flash. Every iphone user was reminded daily about how kneecapped it is when they can't pull up the web site for the restaursnt to check hours or call up for a reservation. That kind of life experience was his entire focus and his showpiece product failed utterly at it. And so he said flash is bad and html5 and pwa is the better way to do what flash does. Since then they only say anything even slightly similar only as a defense against monopoly charges about native apps "what? you can use pwas" but only on Safari and castrated functionality. If Steve could have sold a product that didn't even use the same tcp/ip and html as everyone else, he would have. The only time he allowed the tiniest shred of interoperability is when there is no way to sell the product without it.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Maybe the word he used wasn't "industry standards", I couldn't find the video now. The idea of the speech was that you can't do everything by yourself because you have just this much capacity and if you stretch yourself too much you end up with overall worse experience even if you do some things better. I think he was explaining why he is abandoning some internal Apple projects in favour of the established ones made by others.

k33n 3y ago

Apple should get out of the European market entirely. Their product offering is literally incompatible with the laws that govern EU commerce. There's plenty of money to be made in Asia/Pacific and the Americas. Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market. Apple has literally never cared and should never care what outside bodies (including to a large degree -- their own customers) want their products to be. It's what has made them unique in the past. If Apple backs down on their vision then they are no longer Apple.

andersa 3y ago
Apple is making many billions selling hardware and services in the EU - investors would cook them for that move.
lapcat 3y ago
Apple's last quarter results: $30 billion in net sales from Europe, their second largest market behind the Americas. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q1/FY24_Q1_Consolidated_Financial_Statements.pdf https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy2024-q1/FY24_Q1_Consol...
lm411 3y ago
> Apple's walled-garden approach is innovative especially on the security and stability fronts and anyone who doesn't like that or wants alternative launchers should jailbreak their ios device or just use Android, which does fit better into EU market. This how I feel completely. I use quite few different devices & operating systems on a daily basis (MacOS, iOS, Android, Linux, Windows, FreeBSD) and they all have their place. I use a Mac for my primary workstation and an iPhone for my primary phone specifically because I want security, stability, and usability on those devices. Also, the Apple ecosystem & iCloud, are very convenient for sharing / collaborating with household family members. Don't get me wrong - many Linux distros are very stable and secure. But the "year of the Linux Desktop" is still far out. I actually feel it's further out now than it was 5 years ago. Which is too bad, because I am an avid Linux user and have used it since Slackware 3.0 / kernel 1.2.13. Easily 50% time spent on my Mac is just using a terminal logged into Linux or BSD based servers. If I wanted a single phone, for fun, learning, hacking, etc, it would definitely not be an iPhone. But that's not what I want / need in my phone at this point in my life. It often seems that the people pushing so hard for Apple to change its ways are not the people that actually use Apple Products, but rather individuals projecting their own beliefs and preferences onto others.

hartator 3y ago

Shielding the Epic game store under a different account is not the bravest move from Epic. I would ban other Epic accounts if I was Apple.

smoldesu 3y ago
Which Epic Games account would you prefer they use, the American one? If you want to talk about cowardly behavior, we should discuss Apple's anti-steering policy. At the root of this brouhaha is an indefensible double-standard that Apple cannot sustain in a fair market.

charcircuit 3y ago

Apple should avoid destroying developer trust as developers aren't forced to write ios apps. Apple needs developers.

cheeze 3y ago
Developers aren't forced to write any apps. They write apps where the revenue makes sense. And the revenue makes the most sense on ios for a large share of developers. 95%+ of developers don't care if Apple doesn't allow Epic on their store. That's just reality. If my boss tells me "we're launching an ios app" I'm not going to tell him about how I disagree with Apples principles and refuse to build it.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  They care about their own accounts being deleted over some disagreement. The risk of having your account banned changes how you invest in the platform.
  - darknavi 3y ago
    > They care about their own accounts being deleted over some disagreement. The risk of having your account banned changes how you invest in the platform. I wish it did but it really doesn't. You can see countless "I lost my google account for a random reason" and yet everyone I know has a google account and probably uses gmail.
- mdhb 3y ago
  No but a lot will start building PWAs wherever they can instead because they no longer need to write an entire second copy of their app that only runs in one place and can’t share code and they don’t have to just pay 30% of their revenue to someone for no good reason. Trust me, Apple pissing off developers is absolutely going to have serious implications for them.
  - Seanambers 3y ago
    Then they should just code for Android, stay there and leave us in the Apple Ecosystem alone. I have no effin need for a second store, or a third or a fifth.

Despegar 3y ago

Epic perhaps thought Apple might show them grace after the lawsuit in the US. A kind of repeat of the Apple-Samsung litigation where everyone has a "it's just business" attitude and keeps doing business together while simultaneously suing each other. Apple on the other hand has decided they will show them no quarter. I don't think they're being emotional about it. I think it's to show every other developer that they will actually enforce the DPLA that everyone signs, and they won't turn the other cheek.

lxgr 3y ago
Parts of Apple's DPLA are likely unenforceable in the EU going forward.
- akira2501 3y ago
  Attempting to enforce an "illegal" contract provision seems pretty "emotional" to me. Apple is finally in a position to lose their monopoly grip on a platform software store, and they clearly will stop at nothing to stop the loss of that revenue, this is obviously an existential problem for them.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    It certainly threatens their app store revenue, and by extension market value, so it's rational for them to push back, but by no means is it an "existential problem". Apple is quite a bit more than just the app store. There's probably risks on both sides here, too: Playing hardball with EU regulators and courts could cost them a lot of money.
    - akira2501 3y ago
      > so it's rational for them to push back If your vision for your company only extends to the next quarterly earnings report, sure, it's "rational." If you consider the fact that every other participant in the market dislikes this practice, that this dislike has finally risen to the level of government involvement, and that laws are about to be written taking it away from you, then clutching it to your chest is best understood as an emotional position. It's rooted in a desire to not lose the past while attempting to deny that any other future could possibly exist. It's classic denial, on a trillion dollar corporate level.

dmitrygr 3y ago

Epic is learning the lesson that Nvidia had to learn. Apple holds grudges. Honestly, it was idiotic of them to expect anything else. Maybe they thought that they were more Samsung-like and after being a huge pain to apple, life will resume normalcy. Apple needed Samsung. They do not need Epic.

paulmd 3y ago
people really think bumpgate was about some issue that also affected AMD too and not closing the door on NVIDIA building a platform inside Apple's platform and shifting the balance of power? you've been reading way too much semiaccurate lol https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2021/10/13/apple-vs-nvidia-what-happened.html https://blog.greggant.com/posts/2021/10/13/apple-vs-nvidia-w... like, we have the benefit of a decade of retrospect and watched nvidia do exactly the thing that apple refuses to let their partners ever do (namely: wear the pants in the relationship), and you're still taking charlie's takes at face value. Do you really think it's the bumps and not Apple taking action to protect themselves and their future products against the threat of competitive lock-in posed by NVIDIA and CUDA? it is just amazing that people continue to take the guy seriously. How is that "NVIDIA is 4+ years behind AMD in the mid-term, and GV100 and GP100 are bumpgate 2.0" working out for you? Was ~2015-2020 a good period for Radeon Group? https://www.semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/nvidias-volta-gpu-raises-serious-red-flags-for-the-company/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2013/05/20/nvidias-volta-gpu-ra... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2015/05/19/amd-finally-talks-hbm-memory/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2015/05/19/amd-finally-talks-hb... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/05/03/thing-go-bumpgate-in-the-night-for-nvidias-gp100-pascal-gpu/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/05/03/thing-go-bumpgate-in... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/06/08/nvidia-p100-gpu-update-no-bumps-yet/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/06/08/nvidia-p100-gpu-upda... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/08/01/nvidia-finally-shows-off-working-gp100s/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2016/08/01/nvidia-finally-shows... https://www.semiaccurate.com/2014/09/15/amds-mantle-api-going-outlive-directx-12/ https://www.semiaccurate.com/2014/09/15/amds-mantle-api-goin... it's amazing that people will sniff out a MLID quote from a thousand paces and yet still uncritically babble Charlie's nonsense like it's the word of god. Dude is a stopped clock who occasionally happens to be correct in his NVIDIA/Intel hatewagon, and that's given him enough reputability that he's apparently beyond reproach with a significant portion of the Gaming Public (tm) who are just looking for reasons to be upset about NVIDIA/Intel.

benced 3y ago

Even setting aside the dubious morality of Apple's rules on iOS, I feel like I'm going insane watching Apple be maximally aggressive. The EU loves regulating! There's nothing they love more! It seems supremely unwise to give them additional excuses to do something they clearly want to do anyways.

patrickmcnamara 3y ago
Regulatory accelerationism. I never thought it would come from Apple.
mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
> Apple be maximally aggressive From an observation standpoint seeing how Microsoft behaved in the 90's and onward, they (Apple) are behaving very similarly - almost exactly with what MS did for Windows back then. I have a growing distaste for Apple corporate/mgmt each day even though I am surrounded by their devices.
- __loam 3y ago
  Apple has been dragged kicking and screaming into more consumer friendly positions since the iPhone was released. It took years for them to simply switch to a more open charging port standard.
  - swores 3y ago
    Not just years, it took a law requiring it to happen.
  - chgs 3y ago
    Before the iPhone and maybe blackberry the majority of phones used random proprietary charger. The iPhone was the first mass market consumer phone to come with a cable that connected to a standard usb charger.
    - jwells89 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

Feels like a mob boss sending a message. "We own this platform, we make the rules, and we don't care who you are or how big you are, you mess with us we'll terminate your account and revenue stream." C'mon EU, do something. <poking EU with a stick>

zshrc 3y ago
We own this platform, (we built this platform), we make the rules I don't see the issue with this... it's not like they're exploiting an inherited platform like Oracle with (everything), IBM with Red Hat or Broadcom with VMware.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Would you also defend Microsoft of the 90's with the same argument for the similar issue? At least Microsoft had no way of stopping you selling apps for Windows but Apple is a next level of nefarious.
  - zshrc 3y ago
    Microsoft didn't have competition in the 90s. Apple has plenty of competition, they've just built up a competitive advantage which is their fully-integrated platform. Googles been trying to build one on the Pixel for years and haven't come close to their success. Apples been doing this "next level of nefarious" since the App Store's introduction in iPhoneOS 3.0, and it's been fine up to this point, otherwise the platform (and consequentially the apps on these platform -- spotify) wouldn't have thrived the way it did.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >Apple has plenty of competition What competition? Apple has a 87% market share amongst US teenage population[1], Epic's core gamer market. It's basically a monopoly amongst their core demographic which will grow up to be adults with jobs and paycheck and guess what they'll buy? More Apple. With <13% market share Android isn't even in the race. [1] https://www.barrons.com/articles/apple-stock-teens-iphone-e5e58147 https://www.barrons.com/articles/apple-stock-teens-iphone-e5...

lapcat 3y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 (1 hour ago, 72 comments)

beeboobaa 3y ago
Mysteriously not on the front page.
- lapcat 3y ago
  That is indeed strange.
  - testfrequency 3y ago
    I was going to start an Ask HN post on this very thing just this morning, so instead I’ll just reply here. The last few weeks, HN seems to be suppressing Apple headlines. They will be on the front page, but then drop off minutes later - despite being fresh, growing in votes and engagement, and being high quality articles. Meanwhile, positive headlines about OpenAI will be up for hours… Also, don’t blame the mod tools. This should be fixed, that’s not normal
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      I didn’t flag this one, but a lot of the debates wind up with pro-Apple/anti-Apple generalities. Which isn’t interesting. Even in this thread, it’s mostly people expressing outrage and disgust or reflexive dismissal; few actual thoughts.
    - dang 3y ago
      Thank you for not posting an off-topic Ask HN. As the site guidelines ask, you should email hn@ycombinator.com if you want to ask or tell us something (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). There's no special treatment of Apple stories or any other $BigCo stories on HN; the dominant variable is simply random fluctuation. If you're seeing otherwise, it's almost certainly because random fluctuation provides a rich set of datapoints to confirm whatever perception you're inclined towards. Mostly we're all primed to notice, and weight more heavily, the things we dislike. (Endless past explanations about this here, for anyone who cares: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). For example, if you dislike $BigCo then it will seem like negative stories about $BigCo are being suppressed. Indeed there are tons of examples of such stories not staying on the frontpage—but there are also tons of examples of exactly the opposite. How one weights these is a function of one's own perception, which is governed by what one likes and dislikes. People who like $BigCo are just as convinced that HN is biased against $BigCo, and find just as many datapoints to support it, and post just as many complaints about it. These dynamics are as old as the hills and impossible to stop. All we can do is answer specific questions when we happen to see them. I only saw this one randomly; in the future, please use the reliable mechanism (hn@ycombinator.com) to get your question answered. It's not as if any of this is secret!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hellcow 3y ago

Clearly the recent 1.8B Euro fine the EU levied against Apple didn't send a message. Perhaps the EU needs to ratchet it up by an order of magnitude.

s3r3nity 3y ago
Quite an authoritarian take.
- droopyEyelids 3y ago
  Both sides are authoritarian. One is a private company with more money than most countries, one is an economic union nominally representing the people of many countries. I don't know where I fall on this issue personally, but siding with Apple is probably more authoritarian.
  - BudaDude 3y ago
    People defend Apple like its the underdog. Apple has been Goliath for almost a decade. Apple under Tim Cook is more about making money than it is about making the best product.
    - ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
      Yep and i think the market is saturated, but they still need the number to go up for the big shareholders. I mean they have a gross profit of 150 billion, it's not like this is helping the workers making apple's products and services.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      I'm old enough to remember when they were the underdog. I still find it weird that people spent the last 5 years complaining about practices that started when they still were an underdog, and which were applauded at the time, and which don't even fully apply now to all developers anyway. But you're right, they're not underdogs any more.
  - 3y ago

mountainriver 3y ago

I may get rid of my iPhone, this is just horrible continued behavior on Apple’s part. Nothing can be worth the damage this is doing to their reputation

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
At least thanks to Unreal engine and their content in the PC space, Epic is big enough to survive this, but think of poor small indie devs who can have their revenue streams shut down at any time because $REASON and have no way of fighting back. Apple needs to be brought down a peg or two.
bluescrn 3y ago
I'd rather people dump Apple products over their anti-repair practices or the whole concept of locked-downd devices tied to monopolistic App Stores, rather than the Apple vs Epic vs EU fight.
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  This is an Apple vs. developers fight. Epic is just the one spending money on it.
BudaDude 3y ago
I have been feeling the same way. Apple has been dropping the ball a lot lately. This whole malicious compliance thing they are doing with the EU is childish. Apple 100% should have lost the court case to Epic the same way Google did.
- usrusr 3y ago
  When your stock is traded like the stock of a company with a stranglehold on a huge market it can press seemingly at will, what can you do other than pressing? Publicly traded companies are mercenaries bound to the highest bidder, nothing they can do about it.
wigster 3y ago

granzymes 3y ago

>In the past, Epic has denigrated Apple’s developer terms, including the Developer Program License Agreement (DPLA), as a prelude to breaking them. >Given that pattern, Apple recently reached out directly to Mr. Sweeney to give him an opportunity to explain why Apple should trust Epic this time and allow Epic Games Sweden AB to become an active developer. Mr. Sweeney’s response to that request was wholly insufficient and not credible. From Apple’s letter to Epic.

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MR4D 3y ago

Maybe Epic should just come out with their own Android-based phone and ignore Apple. EDIT - I don’t mean this flippantly. I really think a gaming phone made by Epic would be fantastic. They have some great games that I enjoy, including Rocket League and Fortnite. Would love to see what they could do with a phone, especially how well they did on GM’s Hummer ( https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21506572/epic-games-unreal-engine-general-motors-gmc-hummer-ev-human-machine-interface https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21506572/epic-games-unrea... )

screamingninja 3y ago
Something like Steam Deck? https://www.steamdeck.com/ https://www.steamdeck.com/
- MR4D 3y ago
  No. A phone. EDITED to add for context: Here's my deal - we're locked into 2 basic choices. The choices are fine, but it's like a Ford vs Chevy thing - boring. I really want someone else to com into the market and make a phone feel special. Like when Air Jordan's first came out. Nobody thought about a shoe as being special before that. Red had a phone, but didn't execute as well as I would have expected. Image what a phone would be like from Epic - fantastic UI, great feel in your hand. Like Fortnite? cool, they have one that looks like it came right out of the game. Like Rocket League? Cool - they have one for that too.
  - ambichook 3y ago
    remember the razer phone? that actually looked genuinely interesting, but it got killed off by the time i was in a position to actually buy an expensive phone :<
RandallBrown 3y ago
If Microsoft would have called their Windows Phone the Xbox Phone and focused it on gaming, I think they would have been way more successful.

ProfessorLayton 3y ago

Really curious what Apple's end game is here, they must know that being this anticompetitive will bite them pretty hard in the long term.

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davidg109 3y ago

Apple makes incredible products, but their teenage angst corporate temper tantrums are vomit inducing. Might be time to vote with my dollar on other tech.

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leecommamichael 3y ago

Didn’t they only terminate the Swedish account?

supermatt 3y ago

So apple are now deciding who can be an App Store. That’s not going to work out well for them.

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vld_chk 3y ago

Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know. Clear stagnation in terms of innovation; no new fundamental interface (no smart glasses, AVP looks too expensive and too narrow); abandon on car project; AI for Apple is nowhere close to others; sales decrease; Apple Watch sales ban; Epic Games court; DMA — after taking a leading position at the market, Apple clearly fails to offer anything new and instead invest too much resources into protecting their market position. Wonder what will replace Apple. Will we see a slow stagnation here or radically new interface for human-to-technology interaction is around the corner?

codingcodingboy 3y ago
Maybe they should make cars.
jesselawson 3y ago
Apple has consistently made laptops and development environments that creative types enjoy and admire. It’s too mad our economic system is setup to only care about infinite growth and monopolization at Apple’s size. It’s too bad just “being a great maker of great tools for great people” isn’t possible when you’re publicly traded.
nozzlegear 3y ago
> AVP looks too expensive and too narrow I bought the first generation and agree with these points, but boy is it really cool tech. I thought it’d be super gimmicky and dumb before I got it, I changed my mind within a couple of hours after using them. I ended up sending mine back, but only because I bought them to develop vOS apps for it and simply don’t have the time after taking on a new client. I really hope they make a second generation and continue improving on it, I already know I’m going to buy it. (I know it’s ironic hoping they’ll make more of their fledgling platform after I just sent mine back and potentially helped kill it, but I really loved it.)
hnfong 3y ago
> Idk, subjectively it feels as end of Apple we all know. You do rationally realize the cognitive dissonance in your subjective feeling, right? A company that is accused of abusing their market position, competitors trying to break into their platform, isn't an indicator that the company is close to an end at all. If it were really the end of Apple, you'd see something like "Epic withdraws legal claims against Apple due to dwindling interest in developing for iOS platforms".

vardump 3y ago

I've spent ~$7000 on Apple products last year. I think it'll be $0 this year and going forward. Tired of this kind of crap. (Not only this, but Apple's behavior with EU, etc.)

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bjornlouser 3y ago
Je suis Sweeney! -- sent from my iPhone
sergiotapia 3y ago
I ditched iphones for a Google Pixel 6 when it came out. Ditched my macbook for a Windows 10 beast machine running linux mint in VMWare Player. Flawless. I had _zero_ issues ditching apple. Especially since everyone I speak to uses Whatsapp anyways. This "green bubble" thing never affected me.
EricE 3y ago
Who you going to replace them with that's better/same level of ecosystem/user experience? Genuinely interested.
- vardump 3y ago
  Frankly me too.
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- vlod 3y ago
  I use terminal, vscode and firefox, docker to do development. Linux (specifically popos) works well for that and a lot of other stuff. For that I use a Thinkpad X1 Carbon.
drooopy 3y ago
I am an Apple customer because I have loved using a Mac since before Steve Jobs returned to Apple and made it a trendy luxury item. But I can no longer support with my money "90s Microsoft 2.0".

dang 3y ago

Related: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-epic-s-developer-account https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-e... (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617729, but we merged that thread hither)

AnonC 3y ago

Though I’m in favor of forcing Apple to do certain things (right to repair, sideloading apps, and more), this is one case where I can’t take a side. Epic (and actually Tim Sweeney), for all its bravado and underdog pretense, is a bad actor, a loose cannon and a dishonest player. Epic Games and Tim Sweeney thrive on drama and theatrics, and somehow seem to be driven solely against Apple while not batting an eyelid when it comes to other platforms where it pays 30% (or more?), such as Xbox, PlayStation and Nintendo. [1] I have no sympathy for Epic Games as long as Tim Sweeney and his drama goes on. This doesn’t mean that I believe Apple to be innocent. Tim Sweeney has a grudge against Apple. I don’t see anything more in the history of this saga. [1]: https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/sweeney_hand_waving_game_consoles_app_stores https://daringfireball.net/2020/08/sweeney_hand_waving_game_...

cuban-frisbee 3y ago
Sweeney is the only one that seems to have the guts, the smarts and is willing to put his money where his mouth is against Apple and other bad actors. Whataboutism about console gaming is frankly laughable as is the notion that they have to fix all problems by the themselves at once or none of them count.

ynniv 3y ago

Isn't Apple providing side loading for customers in Europe now? Sure, Apple is being petty, but I thought this is was what Epic asked for. Can anyone ELI5 this one?

foggymtndrifter 3y ago
All side loaded apps still need to go through Apple notarization. It's malicious compliance from Apple.
pornel 3y ago
No. There is no sideloading at all. Apple very begrudgingly allowed creation of alternative AppStores (marketplaces) instead, which are still completely under Apple’s technical control, and still go through Apple’s review. Apple requires having a 1 million dollar credit line to allow opening a 3rd party AppStore, so consumers or small devs can’t just bypass Apple’s AppStore.
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gray_-_wolf 3y ago
You still need a developer account and application to be signed by apple in order to be able to side load it. Whether that requirement is legal remains to be seen.
solarkraft 3y ago
They aren't actually allowing sideloading, but the ability to install "marketplaces", which can only be provided by verified developers under very strict rules regarding government. It's a huge disappointment.
plussed_reader 3y ago
I would think this is a money game where it will force Epic to become a European developer/entity instead of just an American developer, to access the DMA market. More hoops and more BS is entirely on brand for Apfel in this exercise.

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kylerush 3y ago

There seems to be a libertarian slant to a lot of the comments on this. It reads as if most people believe they have an inalienable right to extend Apple’s products. In other words, it doesn’t matter what I do, what I say, or how I treat Apple, I have an inalienable right to extend their platform. A pretty bold take in my opinion.

xNeil 3y ago
i mean, sounds fine? if i buy a physical product, i must be able to do whatever i want to do with it, no? who are apple to decide what i do with a device once i own it?
kllrnohj 3y ago
It's not Apple's platform. It's mine. My device, my platform. I allow Apple to install software on my device, but it's my device. I own it, full stop. This whole idea that a company can sell you a product but still retain exclusive ownership and decision making over that thing that they sold you needs to die. It's such an abusive relationship and deeply anti-user.
- geodel 3y ago
  > deeply anti-user. You mean anti-owner, since you really own the device

jmull 3y ago

I wouldn't pick a side in this one... it looks to me like there are two bad guys here, and I hope they both get taken down a peg.

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Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
Dismantling Apple's Appstore monopoly would positively impact the freedom of users and developers.
- jmull 3y ago
  Agreed. And Epic is an actively deceptive business partner that forms agreements with the intent to break them. Both bad, as I say.

redbell 3y ago

PG said that a previous tweet by Tim Sweeney is one of the reasons.. https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1765431238985187525 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1765431238985187525

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sandoze 3y ago

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chatmasta 3y ago

> According to Epic, Apple reportedly told the company that it’s “a threat to their ecosystem.” Note they're not saying Epic is a security threat or has a product that endangers Apple customers. Instead, they're calling Epic, the company itself, a threat to Apple's ecosystem. This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly."

Findeton 3y ago
Monopolies are not a bad thing, except when they are enforced with violence=government. Fortunately no one forces you to use Apple's products.
wolpoli 3y ago
To be more specific, it's likely that Epic is a threat to Apple's business/technical ability to steer/shape/profit from the iOS ecosystem.
pmontra 3y ago
Actually, replace "ecosystem" with "revenues".
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andsoitis 3y ago
I think it is <insert-expletive> to make Epic out to be the villain. At the same time: > This quote makes sense, if you replace "ecosystem" with "monopoly." In the US, iPhone has a 57.93% market share. As of 2023, Android has a 70.29% global market share.
- chatmasta 3y ago
  They have a monopoloy on distribution channels of iOS Apps. There is no way, other than through the App Store, for a developer to sell software to the owner of an Apple device such that the owner can execute that software on their own device.

riidom 3y ago

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Zetobal 3y ago

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ckcheng 3y ago

I wonder why Apple doesn't open up. Or else just switch to a Costco model where membership means they get to dictate what’s sold at what margin using which credit card network? Is the end game to force regulation on everyone (Google, etc) and then switch to a Costco model themselves?

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akmarinov 3y ago
Money. Why give up 30% of everything on your store?
labster 3y ago
In the immortal words of Rod Blagojevich, “I've got this thing and it's fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for fuckin' nothing. I'm not gonna do it.”

moogly 3y ago

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realusername 3y ago

That hot tempered decision will cost them a lot of money. They were already in a bad situation for essentially making the alternative stores worthless but cutting off Epic over a few tweets will further cement the idea that there's a competition problem going on here, this is also directly contradicting the DMA.

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etimberg 3y ago

Sounds like the EU needs to give Apple the Microsoft treatment and threaten to split it apart. Have the App store business be completely separate from everything else

repelsteeltje 3y ago
Last I heard, Microsoft is doing great and still in one piece.
- kyriakos 3y ago
  After changing course cause of legal troubles they caused by believing they are above the law
  - repelsteeltje 3y ago
    M$ received a modest also with a silk glove. It somewhat curbed what Balmer could do, but never changed his intention. That is to say: I'm hoping the regulators will come down way harder on Apple (and Amazon, Google et al) this time. Apple leadership will need serious intervention to understand that the way they currently operate isn't in their own interest long term. In a sense, I believe regulators better understand the significance of developers, customers, publishers, content owners and advertisers in Apples ecosystem than Apple does.

015a 3y ago

This is egregious and deeply disturbing behavior from Apple. At this point it feels wrong to own an iPhone. I'm at a loss for words describing what Tim and their leadership team has done to this company that I used to admire so much.

api 3y ago
They're addicted to bad revenue here. Once they started with the App Store revenue and especially taking a cut on all transactions, they were locked in. It's a public company so number must always go up. If number doesn't go up, executives are gone and replaced with people who will make number go up. That means it's impossible for them to back out of the App Store revenue channel. They'll have to be forced out by government action, in which case they can write it off as unavoidable and appease the shareholders and maybe not be replaced. The basic principle here is that when a company takes on a revenue stream, it becomes addicted to it and it's incredibly difficult to give that revenue stream up even if it's destructive to other aspects of the company or brand. This is very closely related to the innovators' dilemma. In fact that might be seen a special case of the same failure mode. If Apple ever goes really into advertising, that'll really be the end of them as a good brand. Advertising revenue destroys everything it touches. It's possible that they could recover from this debacle but a pivot into ads is the end.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  They already have an ads business, fwiw.
  - AJ007 3y ago
    And ads is the one line of business that is growing. All of the privacy and app tracking restrictions conveniently relate to them having all of the tracking data and third parties not having it. Your data is "private", to everyone except Apple. This is the reason Apple is violently opposing any software coming from sources they don't control. The way the DMA was written is a convoluted joke. It could have been a lot simpler: hardware device makers shouldn't be able to block third party software. A more extreme case could prevent companies over a certain size from manufacturing hardware and the operating system.

casperb 3y ago

I just finished the last episode of The Talk Show podcast, where John Gruber says that Apple doesn’t hold a grudge and is only doing things because they make business sense. He said that because Apple approved Epic’s account and that they would be allowed their own App Store. I already that it was a bad take, but this shows it.

davely 3y ago
I find that Gruber occasionally has some interesting insight but it’s often hard to take him seriously these days — he’s effectively an unofficial PR outlet for Apple. (Fun fact: he co-created Markdown with Aaron Swartz) Edit: Swartz not Schwartz
- kccqzy 3y ago
  It's a sad evolution. Gruber's blog is entitled Daring Fireball and in his early blogging days in the '00s he was in fact pretty daring and posted a lot of criticisms of Apple. Over time he had so thoroughly assimilated himself into the Apple way of thinking that he seldom notices whatever Apple is doing wrong.
  - favorited 3y ago
    > posted a lot of criticisms of Apple His criticisms were all about how the NeXT folks were ruining Apple with their mach-o binaries, file paths & extensions, etc. You'd have thought that Avie Tevanian ran over his dog or something.
  - tibbydudeza 3y ago
    He now gets exclusive 1 on 1 interviews with Apple execs and the blog is a full time job. You got to shill to pay the bills.
  - munificent 3y ago
    Really? I've always considered Gruber to be an Apple fanboy. He might write criticisms, but they read to me like a Deadhead penning an essay on why Aoxomoxoa isn't as good as Terrapin Station or something. Ultimately, Gruber knows his audience is Apple enthusiasts and his material comes from being given access by Apple.

Razengan 3y ago

With all the money Epic has spent, and lost, on this, along with the billions they're making from Fortnite and Unreal, they could have made their own phone and platform by now.

throwaway2990 3y ago
It would be trash like their EGS. No one would use it.

etchalon 3y ago

Apple is just acting increasingly stupid. There's no word for it.

LightHugger 3y ago
I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior. They have not changed one bit. This was always apple, behavior which everyone who purchased their status symbol focused products at insane markups supported.
- etchalon 3y ago
  Hard disagree on basically everyone you said beyond this move not being too surprising. Apple holds grudges. Always has. But this is just asking for trouble without any real benefit. Maybe they want the fight, I guess. But it's a dumb fight.
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  > I feel strange having watched from afar as apple abused their users over and over, and then see apple users be surprised and horrified at this more recent behavior. I’m deeply ingrained in the Apple ecosystem and feel thoroughly unabused right now. But I’m in the US and only watching this play out with mild amusement and schadenfreude at Tim Epic continuing to give and get the middle finger from Apple.
blashyrk 3y ago
It's only stupid if it results in some kind of consequences. If not, then they are just flexing, and they seem fairly confident that there won't be any significant consequences for this kind of behavior. Whether that's true, or just extreme hubris, remains to be seen.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

Seems like the message is, sure we lost our case against the EU so we have be more open on the platform/store, but we're just going to ban any developers who even try to take advantage of that. I suppose they're leveraging their duopoly/luxury positions to give everyone the finger. And once again I'm glad I have nothing to do with the Apple ecosystem.

dilap 3y ago
They really seem to be making a mockery of the EU regs here. Will the EU respond quickly and forcefully, or (essentially) admit that Apple is too big to regulate?
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  IMO, little column A, little column B. EU is good about bringing lawsuits, but because of how law works, judgments are delayed, appealed, reduced, etc. Eye-watering fines are watered down and don't end up meaning much. Viewing the Big Tech names as nation-states by virtue of the sheer power they hold cuts through a lot of BS when people wonder why they do any action that might seem mind-boggling. It's because they think they can get away with doing it, and how often are they proven wrong?
  - dilap 3y ago
    Turns out it was all column A. https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1765793776692326891 https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1765793776692326891 So, good on the EU. And what the heck are Apple thinking?
    - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
      Again, IMO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39645538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39645538 "I never give any Big Tech with nation-state influence the benefit of the doubt. This is a legal/PR stress test. They failed this one, but they won't fail others."

rebolek 3y ago

The only explanation Apple can give is "Money!!!"

getcrunk 3y ago

I wish there was button I could press so the eu/courts would address this immediately. So I don’t have to wait months/years.

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arthurofbabylon 3y ago

At first I was surprised Epic's shareholders tolerate CEO Tim Sweeney – Epic had this all wrapped up, they got a large portion of what they wanted, but Sweeney just couldn't help but keep the drama going, at risk of their business. But then I realized that Tim Sweeney owns more than half of Epic. If he wants to risk his company for a fracas/kerfuffle, then that is between him and his minority shareholder.

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yokoprime 3y ago
I don't think he's risking anything other than having to pay his team of lawyers. Apple is not a major platform for Epic, in fact earnings from sales outside of Windows and consoles is probably so tiny they wouldn't notice it if it disappeared.
- darknavi 3y ago
  > Apple is not a major platform for Epic Well it's not a platform for Fortnite at all for the last few years.
justin66 3y ago
Literally all of Epic's biggest shareholders are on board with treating the problems with Apple as more than a "kerfuffle." They've attracted quite a bit of investment in spite of the ongoing lawsuits.
fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
Actually I'm sure Tencent is really glad Tim Sweeney is doing this as they make a bunch of games already eg. pubg mobile (partial ownership there I think). Having an alternative story as an option is probably a strategic benefit for them

teekert 3y ago

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bsimpson 3y ago

The raw emails are linked at the bottom of the post. Phil Schiller accuses Epic of intentionally violating its agreements and concludes "Please tell us why we should trust Epic this time." Epic founder Tim Sweeney replies that Epic "will comply" and offers to provide "any specific further assurances." Finally, Apple's lawyers tell Epic's lawyers that Apple is terminating the account because a judgement in Epic v Apple says they can, and that Tim did't sufficiently plead his case in his reply to Phil.

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diebeforei485 3y ago

This will not fly in the EU. I am actually very annoyed about their behavior. My next phone will likely not be an iPhone. All the paid apps are subscription based now anyway, it's quite easy to switch.

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sandoze 3y ago
Yikes, you might be disappointed: https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/google-asks-judge-overturn-epic-games-antitrust-verdict-2024-02-02/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/google-asks-judg... I hear Huawei makes nice phones.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  android can sideload
- batrat 3y ago
  You can install any store (ex: fdroid, aurora, etc) on Android already.
  - pelorat 3y ago
    Yes, but no-one does. Those stores only make sense if you have installed a de-googled AOSP, and their offering is maybe half a percent of what's on Google Play. It's an option for hackers, tinkerer and developers. I guess it's nice the option exist, but in practice it make no difference. Most consumers are not even aware that you can sideload apps or that there's alternative app stores.
    - PreachSoup 3y ago
      But the point is always about the capability. I am using Android because ios is lacking the things I want. For example, granular volume control ( even the lowest volume on iphone is still too high for me sometimes), firefox

naet 3y ago

There are a lot of conversations about Apple's "monopoly" on smart phones and I always find it so interesting. I used to use an iPhone, then switched to an android a few years ago, and I felt like there was basically full feature parity between the two of them. I'm not aware of any "killer app" or other use case that elevates one significantly over the other. They both have app stores with all the most popular apps, web browsers, nice cameras, phone calls and messages, etc. So it seems to me like there are plenty of alternatives if you don't want an iPhone that are just as good and often more affordable. Globally Android has a larger market share than iPhone, but iPhones seem to have a "social" factor that pushes them heavily in certain demographics (particularly any intersection of wealthy, young, and US American). Something about this social factor makes it feel to many people like a complete monopoly with no alternative even though there are tons of alternative phone models made by many other companies. For me, of course I think it would be great if iPhones were better compatible with things like RCS chat, open app stores, USB instead of proprietary chargers, etc. But I feel like that can all be worked out long term by the market instead of pushing regulation on one specific company. If any of those things bother you just get a non iOS phone, and if they're truly bad things over time more and more people will gravitate away from the company until they change. If Apple wants to make certain decisions around remaining a walled garden I think they should be able to (and there are arguments that their strategy could make their product better for certain audiences rather than worse, even if we might disagree with the take).

honeybadger1 3y ago

Apple, not unlike a modern-day ecclesiastical authority, excommunicates a heretic who dares to challenge its scripture.

DueDilligence 3y ago

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vlod 3y ago

Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool. (Pirate flags on building etc). Previously MSFT used to be (maybe they've turned that around?) the most hated tech company (becz of their very aggressive attitudes to competitors especially Netscape). One thing they didn't FU and is represented by the infamous sweaty Balmer video [0] of him shouting "Developers, developers, developers", is pissing of people who build on their platform. Well Apple seems to have topped that with this and other malicious compliance shenanigans in the EU. I can't every imagine developing an iOS/native app on that platform going forward. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs

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dmitrygr 3y ago
From working at apple, I remember that most engineers just work hard to make good hardware and software. I've heard very few mentions of what anyone outside of apple thinks of it
- 7moritz7 3y ago
  You'd assume making good hardware and software requires outside feedback. "Thoughts", one might say.
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xk_id 3y ago
Apple has been driving developers away for quite some time now https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19966135
mataug 3y ago
> Wondering how this affects Apple employees. Back in the day, working for Apple seemed cool. Most employees are trying to pay bills and keep ar roof. Especially in today's tech job market, people are trying to avoid getting laid off. Very few people have the luxury of being able to think about apple seeming like a cool place to work or not. So I would say this doesn't affect most apple employees in anyway.

nottorp 3y ago

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Ancalagon 3y ago

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camdenlock 3y ago

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wkat4242 3y ago

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :') So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading. But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

tebbers 3y ago
There’s no way the EU allows Apple’s interpretation of the DMA after they did this, Apple really made a mistake here. As you say, how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON?
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Made a mistake, why? They either comply right away, or just pretend to be deaf with their own interpretation, make Epic sue them again, pull the situation for a few years keep profiting off developers with their 30% rent, maybe at the end of it the EU will fine them some peanut and the rest is just profit, can’t understand what the mistake is here
  - andyferris 3y ago
    The potential fines aren’t peanuts. From memory, they are up to like 12% on global annual revenue (not profit), or something.
    - lnxg33k1 3y ago
      Ah didn’t know it, that would be cool, fingers crossed
- mike_d 3y ago
  > how can you be sure that alternative app stores won’t just be booted off by Apple for $REASON? The EU law allows for consumers to sideload other app stores on hardware they control. It has no provision that compels Apple to continue doing business with a company in their own app store. Yes, it is a business decision you need to make to offer a sideload app store and opt-out of the Apple app store. Does it suck for Epic? Yes. But this is the path they chose. Edit: If you read the Apple letter Epic cites it refers to App Store Review Guidelines, clearly they are terminating an App Store developer account. Nothing stops Apple from minting a fresh Developer Account with only Marketplace capabilities if they apply for a Marketplace account.

Ancalagon 3y ago

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andsoitis 3y ago

This is going to be an epic battle. Speak truth to power.

jarsin 3y ago

Haven't seen much discussion about Unreal Engine here. Epic stated in court filings that it would consider Unreal a failed business if it lost the ability to maintain unreal for ios. Many 3d enterprise apps need to run on ipads. This is hughe blow to unreal.

aurareturn 3y ago
They f'ed around and found out.

zengid 3y ago

This is some spicy shit from Apple: > “In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them,” Schiller reminds the game maker in the letter dated February 23, 2024. “You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple’s rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance as ‘hot garbage,’ a ‘horror show,’ and a ‘devious new instance of Malicious Compliance.’ And you have complained about what you called ‘Junk Fees’ and ‘Apple taxes.”

pavlov 3y ago
Somehow I doubt that the EU competition authority will appreciate Apple’s logic that criticizing their implementation of pro-competition regulation is valid grounds for preventing a competitor from accessing said implementation. It’s like if your parents forced you to give a slice of your birthday cake to your little brother, and in spite you intentionally cut him a slice with no frosting. When he complains, you go: “No cake for you then!”
- ineedaj0b 3y ago
  but epic was spitting on the cake. neither party is holy here
- plandis 3y ago
  > In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them That sounds like a legitimate reason to not do business with Epic to me?
  - pavlov 3y ago
    Epic’s past behavior didn’t occur in the EU and was aimed at getting Apple to make the kind of concessions that the EU is now forcing upon them. Epic seems to have followed the letter of the DMA by setting up a European subsidiary that deals with Apple’s European subsidiary. My feeling is that the antitrust people at the European Commission won’t be happy with Apple’s refusal to give them access.
3y ago

seydor 3y ago

What a monster big tech has become.

lnxg33k1 3y ago
It is probably a good description of what society has become, there are a lot of people who go on repeating that these big tech are just corporations for profit and don’t have to signal any good intention, because it doesn’t make them any profit, and being bad doesn’t make them lose any profit, because we’ve become just a bunch of ignoring consumers going after the next gadget blindly, these companies are shit, because it doesn’t cost them anything anymore What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain, like they’re the ones who are buying these overpriced crap, then being squeezed of 30% every time they get an app, who they think is going to pay for the apple tax at the end of the day
- idle_zealot 3y ago
  > What I keep wondering is why iSheeps don’t complain Because the costs and detriments are obscured, dispersed, and nebulous. The consumers here are largely boiled frogs who don't know what they're missing. If users were used to an open system; an app store that functioned as an intuitive frontend for multiple distribution channels, a messaging app that supported all the protocols their friends and family use and seamlessly joined their conversations, a social media app that aggregated all the content from the people in their lives and creators they follow, and documents/photos/etc that sync across all of their devices. And then Apple et al took that all away; now you can only have apps we approve of, now all of your chats are split between platform apps with UIs that compete for your attention and try to upsell you features, now you have to use the Twitter app to read tweets (and see our ads), Instagram to see your friends' posts their (and our ads), YouTube to see new videos (and our ads), Twitch to watch people live (and our ads), oh, and also now all of your photos only sync to some of your other devices (the ones we sold you). Then you'd see outrage and indignation. iSheep don't know what is being kept from them, don't understand how cohesive and empowering a digital interface to the world should be. They have been trained not to expect a User Agent, but instead an appliance that allows them access to little islands and digital fiefdoms. And it isn't just Apple device users that are subjected to this. Apple is the most rigid in licking down their computers, but all major platforms add friction and roadblocks meant to discourage users from owning and tailoring their systems.

anigbrowl 3y ago

'You get in the car to go to the store. The car drives you to church instead, because the store has mysteriously exploded.' https://avaruusmies.com/jokes/if-operating-systems-ran-your-car.html https://avaruusmies.com/jokes/if-operating-systems-ran-your-...'

dann0 3y ago

First, it’s weird that anyone would take the side of Epic in any argument. Second, it’s obvious that no one had actually read the article. Epic admitted that they have deliberately broken the App Store rules. That’s enough to have anyone sanctioned in any system. Apple are certainly not unimpeachable here, but this blind hatred of Apple is out of control. At least get the facts close to right before spewing your uninformed BS.

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kanwisher 3y ago
Epic broke the rules 3 years ago, they were reinstated recently cause of the european union decision. They haven't done anything to break the rules except write a tweet complaining about apple. I don't see how apple has any footing in this argument

ineedaj0b 3y ago

epic is being a dick. you don't usually be a dick like this and expect zero repercussions. this is akin to apple and samsung making up but one party or both parties running to the media and calling each other a 'ch*nk, slant eyes' or whatever colorful language Samsung would paint the american apple... you can insult in business speak! it's common, but epic decided on normal speak --- is it because sweeney is pulling an Elon? Or is this a sign there are others movements the public is not aware that epic is doing? I would bet on the latter. I don't think this is a big deal. But I do wonder if fortnite is struggling more than expected and maybe there's an options play I should begin looking into

zmmmmm 3y ago

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin? I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlled ecosystem that I fundamentally disagree with, I can't stomach it. There's something visceral about giving a company that exerts this obnoxious level of control complete control of every photon entering your eyeballs. So Apple, in case you ever care, you are at -1 Vision Pro users.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
But this isn't about quality at all. It's about Apple trying to milk the system for all it's worth. You can absolutely build a great product w/o trying to maximize profits to the extreme. That's just frowned upon in the current business world.
mvdtnz 3y ago
Quality and openness are not in tension at all. I can buy cheap third party brake pads for a BMW, it doesn't make the OEM any less "obsessive" about quality.
echelon 3y ago
Apple views every instruction executing on iPhone as something they own, control, and tax. It'd be cute if iPhone was a toy used by a million people. However, mobile computing has become a cornerstone of modern communications and societal function. You use these devices to book flights, buy goods, order food (at restaurants), date, do banking, send texts, emails, -- literally everything. And Apple controls and taxes all of it. All the innovation. All the connections. Everything. And they control how you write and deploy that software. It's a game of constantly jumping through hoops and stressing out over release trains. With a press of a button, a change in policy, Apple can nuke your product from orbit. And there's not a thing you can do. And Google, even with their "unlocked APK installs", isn't really any different. This is a new kind of monopoly. A solid chunk of the connective tissue of our planet and species is controlled, taxed, and ruled over by two overlord companies. I am so glad the Internet itself isn't like this. Except, these devices practically are the internet for many or most folks. So these to, in a way, do control and tax the internet.

jamiedumont 3y ago

John Gruber's take: https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_account https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...

dsgnr 3y ago
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popcalc 3y ago

Hypothetically, what if a multinational like Apple just doesn't pay the fines, assuming they have no subsidiary presence? Will they go after their EU-resident payment processors and infra providers? Apple's market cap is important enough to the U.S. economy that I wouldn't be surprised if our intelligence community sabotages the DMA. We've done this for Boeing, why can't we do it here? https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-secret-past https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-...

SSLy 3y ago
Apple has enough subsidies in EU, starting with 5G modem developers purchased from Intel.

jasonlfunk 3y ago

https://twitter.com/aarongraves/status/1765441652120834112 https://twitter.com/aarongraves/status/1765441652120834112 Apple’s justification isn’t too unreasonable.

nojvek 3y ago

Meanwhile US FTC is totally asleep at the wheel. What is Lina Khan even doing? Apple is clearly being a bully in daylight.

brikym 3y ago
This is why I sold my APPL stock a few weeks back. The experience on iPhone is shit. The web is broken on Safari. They broke PWAs. The vision pro is not a big hit. The notification system on MacOS is a poor experience as it gets in my way all the time. Apple want to extort devs to build apps. The arm macbook chips are amazing but that's old news now. Too much abuse of their customers and not much innovation. It has since slid 10% and I'm not surprised.
- tatrajim 3y ago
  > The vision pro is not a big hit. You have verified sales statistics? Why are users around the world clamoring for vision pros in their countries? Why are Chinese entrepreneurs renting out vision pros by the hour? My wife and I marvel at the vision pro experience. https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-vision-pro-china-rentals-report-2024-2#:~:text=Chinese%20denizens%20can%20rent%20the,their%20hands%20on%20the%20headset https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-vision-pro-china-renta....
- ectospheno 3y ago
  I love my iphone more than any other tech device I own. Can you elaborate on "The experience on iPhone is shit"? Seems like hyperbole to me.
  - bogdan 3y ago
    Fish don't know they're in water until they're out of it. See Android.
    - Epskampie 3y ago
      I switched a few years ago. The realistic non-hyperbole take is that iOS and Android are really, really similar. Only real difference is Firefox, is that turns out nicely on iOS I might try the other side again.

textadventure 3y ago

Actual source: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-epic-s-developer-account https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/apple-terminated-e...

paulddraper 3y ago

This is the tweet that Apple cited as warranting removal from the App Store: > Apple leadership faces some massive decisions in the coming weeks as the contradictions between their stated principles and the intended and actual consequences of their present policies are reckoned with: the app store monopoly, the digital goods payments monopoly, the tax, the suppression of true information about competing purchasing options, the blocking of competing web browser engines and outright destruction of web apps. > It doesn’t have to be this way. Apple is a few bold and visionary decisions away from being the company they once were and that they still advertise themselves to be: beloved brand to consumers, partner to developers, and overlord to none. [1] Damn, that's probably the least caustic tweet I've ever read on Twitter... Ruthless. [1] https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1762243725533532587 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/176224372553353258...

jamiedumont 3y ago
I was expecting a full on rage-tweet too. Must have hit one of Apples sore spots.

DueDilligence 3y ago

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turboturbo 3y ago

Gruber has a good take on this: [1] > That Tim Sweeney tweet cited as an example doesn’t seem out of line to me. [...] Apple ought to stick to Epic’s deliberate breaking of the App Store rules with Fortnite back in 2020. It’s not even in dispute that they flagrantly broke the rules then. If Apple wants to make that a “lifetime” ban, they should just say so. > Citing recent tweets, like Sweeney’s, that are simply critical — even scathingly critical (or to borrow Schiller’s term, “colorful”) — just makes it look like Apple’s policy is that if a developer criticizes the App Store’s rules, Apple will punish them for speaking out. I don’t think that’s Apple’s policy at all, but some people think it is, and this situation with Epic just reinforces that. [1] https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_account https://daringfireball.net/2024/03/apple_epic_developer_acco...

justin66 3y ago
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throwaway2990 3y ago
Na. Not a good take. Apple already said the reason was because they had revoked epics account for breaking rules and did so after being made aware of the account from Timmy boys tweets. Anything else is just Timmy adding fuel to the fire which reinforces apples decision to not allow epic to have an account. Timmy is desperately trying to become steam.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  Must be a rough news cycle for you, this morning.
- shippintoboston 3y ago
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fennecbutt 3y ago

Why is it okay for Apple to ban Epic but allow other devs when it would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers?

ksec 3y ago
>would likely be illegal for Samsung to refuse to sell displays to Apple but sell them to other manufacturers? Not entirely sure why that would be illegal? You can argue Apple cant do that because there are only two Smartphone ecosystem. But there are plenty of OLED display supplier out there.
- fennecbutt 3y ago
  There are, but none are as desirable as Samsung. If Apple wanted it to, it could fall under refusal to deal, Apple are very good at twisting courts to their advantage. Remember when I think it was iPhone 11 or something, they had to use LG and Samsung screens to meet demand, but the consumer reaction was for people desperately trying to hunt down units with a Samsung screen because the quality was noticeably better. Samsung is probably Apple's biggest competitor, you can bet that they would most certainly rather pay LG, or literally anybody other than Samsung if they could, right?
wtallis 3y ago
Samsung could probably get away with not selling displays to Apple if they had successfully sued Apple for breach of contract related to selling displays to Apple. But it's a lot more plausible that Samsung would still want to take Apple's money even if their relationship were worse.

scotty79 3y ago

Customer! We won't sell you electricity even if you abide by our stated arbitrary rules because we frankly don't like you and you've said mean things about us.

elephantum 3y ago

Interesting, is there a possibility of something like class-action where iPhone owners sue Apple for restricting access to Fortnite? I bet there should be a plenty of angry gamers.

leptons 3y ago

Apple doing Apple things.

Grimblewald 3y ago

more empty words from the king of the glasscastle

Arnt 3y ago

Apple wanting a cut of everything is… well, it's nothing new anyway. We all have our opinions about that, and this event isn't going to change anyone's mind about that. Apple not trusting Epic is another, and the wording suggests that Apple thinks third parties would agree. What's that about?

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lenkite 3y ago

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TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

Apple seems to be very scared that Epic's App Store might have been working. So much so, that they are going to risk another huge fine from EU.

chrisjj 3y ago
Perheps Apple judges the fine less than the likely loss the the Epic store.

DueDilligence 3y ago

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swat535 3y ago

In other news, Apple continues its quest of suicide. I can't decide who do I hate more? Epic, desperately attempting to portray their acts as Holy sacrifices by being martyred in the hands of blood thirsty, evil Apple corporation or perhaps Apple double downing with malicious compliance, scummy tactics and lording their mob-boss like attitude towards EU and its citizens? Meanwhile people here are arguing over which sport team they belong to rather than the actual issue at hand which is the fact that computing ownership is being taken away from normal people by tech companies and frankly all of them are at fault (Amazon, Google, Apple, Epic, Ubisoft,..). You no longer own anything, you have to rent it and smile. You are prohibited from modifying the devices you purchase or even attempt to repair it. Your movies and music libraries can be removed by the whims of the corporation and your books can be deleted should an executive feel like it does not align with the DEI flavor of de jours My point is this, computing is no longer a niece for nerds and people literally have their lives tied to these systems and devices. We are in serious trouble if strong laws and regulations are not implemented (not only within EU but frankly everywhere) to prevent these corporations taking away people's rights, privacy and freedoms. I don't know how this will pan out but the silver lining is that it may start a discussion at the world stage regarding these issues.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago
Things will have to get a lot bleaker before they can even stand a chance of getting better.

miga 3y ago

Apple is a monopolist on a service that is public. Termination of developer account in this case merits FTC action.

Copernicron 3y ago
Citation needed. Apple is not a monopolist. The judge in the Epic Games suit even said so[0]. It also isn't a public service. It's a private service operated by a private company where you have to pay to play. And part of paying means agreeing to certain terms and conditions before you're allowed access. Violating that agreement is grounds for termination of your access. [0]https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036043886/apple-fortnite-epic-games-ruling-explained https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036043886/apple-fortnite-epi...
- erichocean 3y ago
  > by a private company Apple is, in fact, a public company. As a US-based company, there are many things that Apple is not able to do——for example, they cannot refuse to sell to Black people, despite violating Apple's freedom to "associate" with whoever they want, for whatever "private" reason they may have. The US government can decide that Apple must provide equal access to all of its citizens, and in fact, the 14th Amendment and the various Civil Rights acts that it enables seems to require that every company that sells "to the public" treat members of the public equally.

croes 3y ago

Pretty bad timing of Apple if they tried to avoid to look like hindering competition.

hipadev23 3y ago

We need some competition in the mobile/tablet space. Apple hardware and performance is incredible. Google is inept at best and getting worse.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
> Google is inept at best and getting worse. Hard disagree. I've used Pixel phones for years and they're generally great phones. Biggest previous complaint was their software upgrade support window was too short, but now they offer 7 years of upgrades.
- hipadev23 3y ago
  Pixel phones imo are like gaming on linux. Yes it’s passable, yes it’s getting better, but if you’re fooling yourself if you think it’s comparable to gaming on Windows.
  - burnte 3y ago
    Pixels phones are some of the best Android phones on the market. Unlike gaming on Linux, Pixel phones run everything in the Android ecosystem quite well, as they are intended. If you're going to compare it to gaming on linux, then Pixel phones are the Steamdecks of that world;
  - willsmith72 3y ago
    Tbh as someone who's bounced between Nexus, iPhone and Pixel, I really don't think so All ios users say the same as you the first time they use a pixel, but it's the same when an android user tries an iPhone. They're extremely different experiences, far more different than we expect (because on the surface they're both smartphones), and we mistake the differences for general shittiness. Overall I probably prefer ios by a small margin, but people like what they're used to
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    Useless analogies are just useless analogies. Care to explain, with specifics, why you feel that way? The Pixel has a fantastic camera (e.g. https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/google-pixel-7-vs-apple-iphone-14-camera-comparison-test/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/google-pixel-7-vs-apple...), and it's "smart calling features" (e.g. better handling of spam calls, transcripts for call menus, "hold for me", etc.) are hugely important features for me.

tailspin2019 3y ago

> But Apple told Ars that Epic Games Sweden's access to a developer account was granted through a "click through" agreement that was not evaluated by Apple management. I’ve never heard this type of argument before. Presumably Apple considered their “click through agreement” suitable for developers to “click through” and agree to.

concinds 3y ago
It means Apple would never have approved the Epic Sweden account if management had known, and for the past 3 weeks they were just looking for excuses to backtrack. Which is supported by the fact that they justified the new ban with "they'd just break our terms again!" If you really believed that, Apple, you'd wait, and ban Epic Games Sweden after they broke your terms, which minimizes legal risk. They don't believe their own FUD.

rdtsc 3y ago

> "Apple is retaliating against Epic for speaking out against Apple’s unfair and illegal practices, just as they’ve done to other developers time and time again," Epic said in its statement today. The retaliation is shady, but is the retaliation illegal? Even if a whistleblower would show an Apple internal conversation that looks like "Let's retaliate against Epic", the fine print everyone probably has some "we can terminate the account for any reason" clause, which would include retaliation as well?

warkdarrior 3y ago
DMA requires that (stated informally) large enough online marketplaces do not retaliate against developers or users without a good cause.
- TillE 3y ago
  The DMA requires that companies like Apple provide fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory access for competition. The account is really neither here nor there, it's only an issue because Apple has chosen to make it a requirement to distribute an app marketplace. It's pretty clear that they can't legally freeze out Epic as a competitor, but how they solve that is up to them.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Apple is being unfair and unreasonable, and they literally just walked back this decision within 24 hours of you vehemently defending it. As good a time as any to ask yourself; why do you defend a company you don't understand?
    - awesomeMilou 3y ago
      It remains to be seen if Apple's developer agreement is valid under EU law.

havkom 3y ago

I think Apple holds developers and third parties to “click through” agreements, so I hope Epic does the same towards Apple (it there has been any breach). Feels like it is a weak legal argument (even though some jurisdictions may have special “ticket cases” doctrines). It is not Epics concern if Apple by mistake would enter into a contract with them or not. It is up to Apple to whom they offer such agreements and how.

willsmith72 3y ago

I'm so glad a big player is pushing Apple's buttons, but I do wish they didn't have the Tencent, and thus Chinese government, ownership stake. There's just always going to be a trust issue there

makeitdouble 3y ago
Bringing up the Chinese government card is weird in this specific fight. Epic could get away with moving their shares from Tencent to somewhere else, Apple can't move their core manufacturing from China to anywhere else.

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stevage 3y ago

It strikes me as very weird that it supposedly took weeks for Apple management to learn that Epic had acquired a developer account.

refulgentis 3y ago
Desparate obfuscation in recent PR statements. 24 hours ago, they were more straightforward about ex. getting Epic on a phone call to confirm via voice they'd follow the rules just a few days ago. Back when they were proud of it and thought it'd be smooth sailing.
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