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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

• rmason 5y ago
  Leaders in the former Soviet Union learned the easiest way to erase an historical event was to remove all public record of it. For those who do not remember they would arrest a member of say the Politburo and then all pictures of him with other leaders would be airbrushed out, sometimes even in library books. It was as if he was no longer ever born.
  • mushbino 5y ago
    I work with a lot of Chinese nationals and they know far more about tiananmen than westerners. Look up operation yellowbird.
    • space_fountain 5y ago
      Not to argue about this directly, but there is a stark difference in that we can argue about this. Is it not true that China will censor discussions about Tiananmen square especially if it disagrees with their narrative? Yes I'm sure Chinese citizens know some information about Tiananmen square that westerns don't. AKA the info and only the info that paints it as a western overreaction, but that has little meaning when it's literally the only narrative that's allowed. Also for the record. While interesting Operation Yellowbird seems entirely innocuous
  • snek_case 5y ago
    Soon with machine learning erasing people out of pictures and videos will be easier than ever.
• formerly_proven 5y ago
  Frankly I'm amazed that this was a thing in HK to begin with.
• AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
  Completely understandable. Why have a museum for an event that never happened? /s
  • 88840-8855 5y ago
    I know it is a joke, but they do not deny the event. They just put it into a different context. It goes something like: 2000 lives for 20 years of stability. Well, actually 30 years now.
    • imglorp 5y ago
      That would be an interesting tradeoff conversation if true. But they basically do deny the event by claiming only 300 dead and then villainizing the victims of an atrocity.
      • cabalamat 5y ago
        > That would be an interesting tradeoff conversation if true. While no-one can predict the future, we can have a good guess what a democratic China would be like, because one exists. It's called Taiwan. Which is richer per capita and arguably more stable than the PRC.
      • baby 5y ago
        They are saying no death, where did you read 300?
        • imglorp 5y ago
          Wikipedia claims: the official PRC position at the time was 300; many other estimates are in the thousands ranging up to 10,000. Of course now they are trying to erase it altogether. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests#Official_figures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...
    • kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
      Interesting. Never heard this before. Can you provide sources to back this up?
• pphysch 5y ago
  Interesting to see the parallel crackdowns on the glorification of separatism in both USA and PRC this week, with the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue in the former Confederate capital, and now this.
  • jmclnx 5y ago
    One was a traitor trying to keep his slaves, the other was fighting for Rights in China.
    • pphysch 5y ago
      I wasn't aware Robert E Lee ever traveled to China.
    • X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
      While that is true that fails to mention IMO a key difference. The civil war is not censored in the US, Tienanmen square is. Removing a statue is very different than shutting down all discussion around an event and locking up those that want to talk about it.
      • pphysch 5y ago
        Expressions of white supremacism (N word, etc) & separatism (Jan 6, etc) are heavily suppressed in USA.
        • sneak 5y ago
          Not the same kind of suppression, not by a long stretch. You're still legally entitled to stand on a street corner in the US and shout racial slurs, if that's your thing. You're also legally entitled to assemble and protest there. None of the undertakings that are equivalent to those actions are permitted in China, and will immediately subject you to violence.
          • pphysch 5y ago
• jmclnx 5y ago
  I really wish the US and Europe would get *lls and punish China for breaking the treaty with Hong Kong and the UK
  • masterof0 5y ago
    How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.
    • errantmind 5y ago
      Economic sanctions. Tariffs and the like. War with a nuclear power is not a viable option
      • swayvil 5y ago
        We could always conduct war with trollfarms, propaganda etc. China's unfree speech would actually be a strong asset in such a conflict. Makes you think
    • president 5y ago
      It's a good question. Assuming war is the only option on the table: 1. Would Americans be in favor of (relatively) short term destruction in favor of long term prosperity for their children and future generations? 2. Would the US be able to win a conventional war against China? I believe the answer to #1 is no. I don't think anybody knows the answer to #2.
      • boomboomsubban 5y ago
        On 1, let's not pretend that short term destruction necessarily leads to long term prosperity. We've "won" most of our recent wars, long term prosperity was not the result. On 2, there is no conventional war with a nuclear power.
        • CRConrad 5y ago
• kunagi7 5y ago
  The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.
  • president 5y ago
    Very sad and parallels what seems to be happening in the US and other western democracies as well. There is a trend of certain dominant power in all of these countries that is quashing all opposing voices. I predict that some major global events are going to happen within the next few years. EDIT: Case in point - the quashing of opposing voices occurs on this board on this very comment. You cannot even bring up this fact. Thank you for proving me right fellow HNer.
    • 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
      You're welcome.
    • throwawaylolx 5y ago
      >Thank you for proving me right fellow HNer. Well, who do you think does the censoring in the West? Companies that employ people browsing this very forum.
    • warning26 5y ago
      Or, consider this alternative hypothesis -- people are downvoting you for whining about being downvoted.
      • president 5y ago
        Happened well before my edit. People associate narratives with tribal politics and vote accordingly. For those like me who think and speak independently, it is a massive disappointment to get caught in the crossfire.
• psim1 5y ago
  I visited this museum in 2016. It was incredible to see this on Chinese soil. Hong Kong had a mere 20 years of being truly Hong Kong, free of the UK and generally free of China. Now it is just more China.
  • hunterb123 5y ago
    Communist China has only had a mere 100 years compared to it's 5000 year history.
    • sneak 5y ago
      This is a pretty interesting perspective to consider, too.
    • gibolt 5y ago
      Not sure why you are being downvoted. During the communist revolution (in the 40s), the previous government was overthrown and escaped to Taiwan. That was when Mao and Communism took over. It is an interesting perspective Edited for accuracy, 'cultural' -> 'communist'
      • skissane 5y ago
        > During the cultural revolution, the previous government was overthrown and escaped to Taiwan Not the Cultural Revolution. Cultural Revolution was in the 1960s, the Communist victory over the Nationalists and the Nationalists' flight to Taiwan was late 1940s. The "Cultural Revolution" was not a "revolution" in the classic sense. It was not an attempt to install a new government. It was a totalitarian exercise in which the Communist Party – led by Mao – attempted to eliminate every aspect of Chinese culture and society that wasn't enthusiastically communist
      • patch_cable 5y ago
        That’s not what the cultural revolution was. The cultural revolution took place well after the CCP took over.
      • vkou 5y ago
• SimeVidas 5y ago
  How much longer does China plan to keep this event taboo?
  • sneak 5y ago
    My guess would be until everyone who cares about it dies. He who controls the present, controls the past.
    • howaboutnope 5y ago
      > Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it. The assertion that the Moscow subway is the only one in the world is a lie only so long as the Bolsheviks have not the power to destroy all the others. In other words, the method of infallible prediction, more than any other totalitarian propaganda device, betrays its ultimate goal of world conquest, since only in a world completely under his control could the totalitarian ruler possibly realize all his lies and make true all his prophecies. -- Hannah Arendt, "Origins of Totalitarianism"
  • pcurve 5y ago
    probably until the current communist party loses its grip. Currently, it's sort of a federated dictatorship. They see what S.Korea has gone through in being a full democracy, taking lessons from it to ensure it doesn't happen there. S.Korea is a free society now, but even as a 40 something guy, I remember days of militaristic regime holdovers from quasi dictatorship of the past. You couldn't criticize the president, the press was closely monitored, no one dare expose rampant corruption and collusion of big business and prosecution office. I remember my neighbor skipping classes to demonstrate against the government, throwing Molotov cocktails. Some people got whisked away and put into labor camp, not to be seen again for months or not make it out alive. Where is China on the timeline? They're probably currently at where Korea was in early 1970s. But they also know that the timeline now is far more compressed in modern society and change could happen much quicker. All the the actions you're seeing from China, is done out of fear of losing grip.
  • 5y ago
• smoyer 5y ago
  If China is claiming that Hong Kong citizens are foreign agents, aren't they implicitly admitting that Hong Kong isn't part of China?
  • johnzim 5y ago
    Doublethink is a skill that takes some time to learn. While you're still waiting to get up to speed, just understand and accept that all Chinese people are the property of the Emperor. It's much easier to make sense of things.
  • mhh__ 5y ago
    Maybe they are, but they can say whatever they please if the mainlanders don't see it
  • azinman2 5y ago
    No, they’re saying they’re working for foreign governments (aka the US)
• RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  The power balance between the US, UK, and China in 1984 was far more in favor of the US and the UK than it is now and they still caved to Chinese demands vis a vis Hong Kong. Given the state of global power balance now, there is not a chance in hell that any of the West will do anything (except maybe words) to support the Hong Kong.
  • johnzim 5y ago
    The U.S. did nothing in the arrangement because their position wrt the CCP was one of engagement to balance against the USSR. It was the UK, which caved because, as revealed in now-declassified democratic cables from 1958, Zhou Enlai flatly stated that the PLA would invade if HK was given independence. The UK quite simply could not defend HK. It had failed to defend it in WWII against Japan (it couldn't even defend Singapore) and would have no hope against the CCP, even without the Harbour Tunnel to the Kowloon Peninsula, which had already been operating for some time. Instead it opted for an agreement in the joint declaration and a hope that the CCP would lean more towards international norms as the Shanghai cadre assumed more control. Objectively a poor solution but, I have to say, probably the most rational. Of course, we all know what happened. Deng's best laid plans came to naught and another 'great leader' emerged.
  • asdff 5y ago
    In 1984 China was part of the warsaw pact and well allied. Who will stand up to chinas defence in the face of an american coalition today? Russia would honestly probably join the american coaliton.
    • hihihihi1234 5y ago
      China was never a member of the Warsaw Pact.
• TacticalCoder 5y ago
  I can't wait for the marxist comrades to explain us, using some no true scotman fallacy, how this is not communism, how communism is about freedom of speech, freedom of thoughts, freedom altogether and how communism is the utopia we should strive for... I can't wait to be living in wonderland with all these komrades for it looks like an amazing place. /s
  • bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Reading this, I find it funny how so many people have an image of their "enemies" in their minds and laugh at the idiocy they've mentally constructed for these enemies.
    • VRay 5y ago
      Every time Communism comes up on Reddit I see a thread like OP's satirizing I don't know if I've ever seen anyone spouting that philosophy on HackerNews though..
      • deleted 5y ago
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    • ctdonath 5y ago
      Reading this, I find it funny how way back in the heyday of Usenet it dawned on me "people really believe this stuff!", for a wide array of stuff. Yes, many people do construct a mental strawman and take great pleasure in assigning & attacking it. It's also interesting how many actually do believe such strawman-like absurdities in earnest. Yes, there are people who construct an image of "but real communism has never been tried!" types and impute the term so they can attack; there are also people who truly believe "but real communism has never been tried!".
    • swayvil 5y ago
      I wouldn't know. The post was "flagged". Which is apparently newspeak for "censored". This 1984 shit is getting so casual.
• icelandicmoss 5y ago
  > The national security unit had earlier requested that the Hong Kong Alliance hand over information, reportedly including personal details of all members since the group's founding and financial records. > On Tuesday, the deadline for the request, the alliance members handed over a letter explaining their refusal to co-operate. That takes a magnificent and heartbreaking degree of courage.
• swayvil 5y ago
  According to the authorities the museum was spreading "misinformation". There's that word again. What do you do when all the authorities, and all the news-sources, and everybody you know calls it "misinformation"? Who's the bad guy here? It's enough to make you crazy. I mean have you met the average person? He believes whatever he's told. And with great enthusiasm. And he hates whoever he's told to hate. Crazy.
• deleted 5y ago
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• azalemeth 5y ago
  Genuine, non-inflammatory question: Who's behind this, in China? I know that "Winnie the Pooh" gets the public blame, but this seems to be a very... public, provocative thing to do. Is the person ordering it aware of that, and how provocative it is? Is it Carrie Lam? Their chief of police? Orders from someone higher up in the party, maybe at the ministerial level? Or does the order really from the top? Frankly, I would think that Mr Xiping would have better things to do running a country of a billion people than decide to provoke the HK populace on a random day in September. Edit: very rudely, please tell me why you're down-voting me if you are?
  • nness 5y ago
    I'm the furthest thing from an expert, but if you think about it from a PR/publicity sense, its the best time to do it; 1. No one is paying attention due to the pandemic, 2. By 2047, there'll be no dissodence left and the transition will seem smooth, instead of a fight. The press will say the transition happened with minimal incidence, and it allows China to de-value any protests/outcry from other countries.
  • sudosysgen 5y ago
    No one in particular. Many people agreed about a plan years ago, with various factors they set out to trigger various steps, and those determined that today was a suitable day and no one objected specifically, so it went ahead. That's the most likely scenario. Xi himself probably spent very little time on this in the recent past.
  • germainelol 5y ago
    You assume that they care if the public are provoked.
  • phantomathkg 5y ago
    > Who's behind this, in China? Xi and his ally within the CCP. Even within CCP there are power split and Xi needs to create a scene to concentrate the power to himself. > Is the person ordering it aware of that Surely they do, but to CCP, this is the only way to make them feel confident enough, by squashing all dissidents. > Is it Carrie Lam? Their chief of police?... Personally, I guess the order from CCP to HK govt is, "get rid of all dissident, use any means that you think that will work." > I would think that Mr Xiping would have better things to do running a country of a billion people than decide to provoke the HK populace on a random day in September. CCP have crack down so many things these day, no? Things happen in parallel.[1][2][3][4] 1: https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/the-real-cause-of-chinas-alibaba-crackdown/ https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/the-real-cause-of-chinas-ali... 2: https://www.straitstimes.com/business/companies-markets/tencent-leads-806-billion-loss-as-chinas-gaming-crackdown-expands https://www.straitstimes.com/business/companies-markets/tenc... 3: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/china-xi-jinping-cpc-socialist-reform-deng-mao-2166641 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/china-xi-jinping-... 4: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58459318 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58459318
• Aeolun 5y ago
  > Critics say it is aimed at crushing dissent but China says it is meant to maintain stability. I feel like people agree on the goal of the security law?
• billiam 5y ago
  Heartbreaking. I can't even talk about Tiananmen with Chinese -born friends under 40 in the US or Europe. TikTok and WeChat has achieved their goals of driving historical memory from their brains. And if I even mention Taiwan within seconds I am hearing the term "renegade province." It seems for now possible to create a true virtual totalitarian state in the 21st century. It's chains are forged out of "Xi thought" apps and distracting two minute videos.
  • vimy 5y ago
    I have a Chinese friend and she gets very emotional, hateful, when Taiwan is mentioned. She told me I can’t talk to her about “that island”.
  • analyst74 5y ago
    It's partly due Chinese brainwashing, and partly due to American brainwashing. Imagine whenever an American expat talks to a foreigner, which happens daily, someone mentions racism in US. Very soon people will get really sick and tired of hearing about it, and will emotionally deny/downplay its existence.
    • seibelj 5y ago
      What’s funny is the most racist interactions I have had in professional situations were with Chinese businessmen. China is exceptionally racist. But they do try to cudgel America with it repeatedly.
      • divbzero 5y ago
        I think this is true for many places around the world: where racism is just as serious or more so than in the US, but racism appears more prominent in the US because the issue has been dealt with more head on.
        • deleted 5y ago
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      • 5y ago
• justinzollars 5y ago
  If our goal is to democratize Russia and China, that is, change their political systems to conform more closely with our democratic one, is that not tantamount to a declaration of ideological war by us?
• deleted 5y ago
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• toss1 5y ago
  >>Critics say it is aimed at crushing dissent but China says it is meant to maintain stability. Of course both are right. This is a blatant crushing of dissent, wherein merely attempting to curate a few facts is now cast as a crime deserving a life sentence. OTOH, the CCP requires stability to maintain its illegitimate[1], brutally dishonest, murderous, expansionist authoritarian 'govt'. This "stability" and requires that the population remain ignorant of the CCP's corruption, history, and current practices. Western democracies were massively foolish to ever engage with CCP and treat it as if it were legitimate. While we thought we were exploiting cheap Chinese labor, the CCP strategically exploited our myopic focus on quarterly profits. They now have won a massive transfer of strategic commercial & military intellectual property, strategic manufacturing know-how, and massive amounts of capital to strategically deploy to buy more global influence. This will go down as a blunder of historic proportions. We see the signs every week, as here, yet nothing is done about it. [1] While this govt may be recognized, it came to power over it's people at the point of a gun, and can only maintain that power without the free consent of it's people. Being a de-facto ruler does not make a ruler legitimate. By that reasoning, the Taliban should immediately be recognized as a legitimate govt.
• Causality1 5y ago
  Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students some time. They're fully aware of what the CCP does, and they agree with it. To them, national unity and tranquility really is worth throwing dissidents and activists into prison or just disappearing them.
  • Waterluvian 5y ago
    Indeed. Look at how much China has evolved since WWII and you can see how many could believe that the ends justify the means.
    • SilverRed 5y ago
      The last few years of the US would certainly validate and solidify those beliefs.
  • benrbray 5y ago
    Indeed. I have an otherwise quite reasonable friend whose stance on Xinjiang province is: "The camps aren't real, it's just an exaggeration. And if they're real, it's because the Xinjiang people are there voluntarily. And if they're not there voluntarily, it's probably better anyway, since it would be a really bad thing long-term to have a large minority of people that is not culturally united with the rest of China. It's not pretty but it's for the common good."
    • winrid 5y ago
      How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? I can say that at least, it's hard not to be surprised by such opinions. I've been to Xinjiang and know people that live there. Pretty sure you could live your whole life without seeing said camps. I also know people that have had family members die from attacks from the Uighurs. If real, I suspect the CCP started the camps after the terrorist attacks - if you look up cities like Korla you'll know what I mean - the security there is insane, complete with officers with submachine guns escorting school children. I didn't have the balls to take a picture...
• swiley 5y ago
  Today has not been a good day for freedom.
• SCAQTony 5y ago
  History is illegal in China. “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. History has stopped...." Orwell's '1984'
• 8eye 5y ago
  i wouldn’t call those police. i would call them enemies of the hk people, if your government oppresses you, they are not YOUR government. a true government works with the people, anything outside of that really shouldn’t exist. it’s sad that with all that we know in 2021, we still have barbaric systems that are designed to oppress. all people, rich and poor are made of the same material, anyone who says otherwise or acts otherwise is delusional. sorry, not sorry. i am really just tired of hearing/reading oppression to this degree. to accept this as the way things are is fine until it’s banging on your door at 3am to pull your family members out because they don’t fit an unrealistic/inhumane “standard” that a random other person made without thinking or not caring a about the suffering it will cause. all i keep thinking of when, not if there will be a breaking point. history tends to repeat itself, hopefully some of the good people finally stand up and demand to be treated fairly. but we’ll see, maybe it will just get better, a change of heart or something. who knows
• wesleywt 5y ago
  The Chinese Communist Party does not understand the Streisand Effect.
  • scbrg 5y ago
    I'm sure they do. I'm also sure they know it's fleeting. They're operating on time schedules of decades, if not centuries. The Sterisand effect is effective for weeks or possibly months, unfortunately.
• Asooka 5y ago
  I would like to remind everyone in this thread that to call China and Taiwan separate is wrong. There is only one Taiwan, whose mainland western territory is currently occupied by an illegitimate revolutionary government.
• anothernewdude 5y ago
  What a bunch of fragile spirits, that they are threatened by a museum.
• malwarebytess 5y ago
  If only the people of Hong Kong had guns.
• amai 5y ago
  China is asshole: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwgVUfW_O4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwgVUfW_O4