22 ms·

Do not download the app, use the website

• bitwize 1y ago
  But the experience is better on the app! [ DOWNLOAD APP NOW ] [continue with chrome like a scrub]
  • Xunjin 1y ago
    Continue with firefox like an old (wise) person.
• tonyhart7 1y ago
  I prefer to use web in dekstop but prefer to use app in mobile I think its just nature of ecosystem
• almosthere 1y ago
  App stores put a lot more crap in to make sure apps are not just pulling contacts anymore.
• PaulHoule 1y ago
  I don't even get "The Unseen Cost of Convenience" as frequently the app is not "convenient", it's just worse -- especially on tablet platforms where a desktop site is just fine, and a desktop site at AAA accessibility is perfect.
• moron4hire 1y ago
  > Some apps can even record audio I have started to think this is the real reason why so many apps have a messaging and voice chat features, not so they can orifice this services to you, but so you'll grant the access so they can spy on you and sell it to advertisers. I randomly decided to try my hand at pottery using clay I've dug up from my yard. Talked about this in person with a few people, but hadn't posted anywhere online about it. Suddenly, Amazon is suggesting pottery equipment and supplies to me.
  • simondotau 1y ago
    One of those people might have googled about pottery, or did a casual Amazon search for indicative pricing, on their phone while on your Wi-Fi connection.
    • dsr_ 1y ago
      Sure, that's possible. But nobody in that ecosystem deserves the benefit of the doubt.
      • wizzwizz4 1y ago
        But knowing the truth gives you power.
  • chrisweekly 1y ago
    "so they can orifice this services" haha, that was a funny autocorrect (or diction) error, or maybe an even funnier Freudian slip!
  • simondotau 1y ago
    For what it’s worth, iPhone shows a visible notification whenever the microphone is actively used. While you’re within an app, this will show as a small orange dot. If an app attempts to use the microphone in the background, it’ll appear similarly to a phone call, but orange or red in colour.
    • velocity3230 1y ago
      The same is true for Android.
• i80and 1y ago
  I 100% agree with this, but a significant way that mobile websites often decay the experience compared to the app is with very short-lived login sessions. Even when the experience is otherwise basically identical, I've found that login sessions in a browser are sometimes measured in days, where in the app sessions never expire. Which feels like app install metric juicing to me.
  • phillipseamore 1y ago
    Note that Safari will remove storage for a site if it hasn't been accessed in 7 days.
    • retropragma 1y ago
      That doesn't sound right. Have you seen documentation on this?
  • hackingonempty 1y ago
    Do you have an iPhone? Safari for iOS deletes all cookies older than a week unless you add the site to your home screen.
    • radicality 1y ago
      Whoa, is that right, I somehow never knew this. Why does it do that, does it still make sense if 3rd party cookies are disabled? And is there a way to disable it apart from the add to home screen?
      • hackingonempty 1y ago
        > Why does it do that To make web app experience poor so devs will sign up for paid dev accounts, give Apple editorial control, give Apple 30% of gross, use Apple payment system, use Apple advertising, etc...
• Aachen 1y ago
  Dutch: https://appdwang.nl https://appdwang.nl German: https://appzwang.de https://appzwang.de I don't know if they're affiliated but I recently came across one after already knowing of the other. The name means something like "app compulsion" in both languages, as in being forced to use apps. Very much in line with the submitted article above Is there such a resource for English already? A place or movement we can link to
  • rambambram 1y ago
    Appdwang seems to be inspired by the German initiative, I found after clicking around there. It's a good initiative, and I hope (non-tech) people realize more about this.
• markbao 1y ago
  Don’t agree, but to each their own. The native app experience for every app noted in the article is better and smoother than the mobile web version, in my opinion. Lots of people hate Electron apps, which suggests to me that my preference for native apps isn’t unique. Web apps can ask for your location or microphone the same way native apps can. Just reject it, there’s nothing that says you have to accept on either platform, so to say that’s a negative for native apps is odd. The biggest downside of native apps is you can’t customize them with extensions or user styles like you can with websites.
  • thwarted 1y ago
    Mobile apps are so limited compared to an actual web browser's interface. The reddit mobile app only lets you view one topic/conversation at a time. Same with the IMDB app; it's impossible to do any research, like comparing actors or movies, using the IMDB mobile app because the flows are all captive and there's very limited ways to navigate between the resources. With a browser, I can open up multiple sets of content at once. So many mobile apps are just fixed views and offer no compelling interface for anything but the extremely limited way they want (force) you to use their app. The fact that a browser allows multiple tabs and can do bookmarking makes up for (works around) the relatively lack luster interfaces both website and mobile apps have.
    • dpkirchner 1y ago
      Mobile IMDB is not the best example -- simply navigating backwards causes a page reload, or at least a long stall and jitter as the page scrolls you around. I'd prefer an app experience (however I just use the Letterboxd app instead.) Tabs are a big win for mobile web, I agree. I just don't think it outweighs the annoyance of navigating the app in more traditional ways.
  • VoidWarranty 1y ago
    The reason I believe the web experience is inferior is because companies put more resources into apps at the expense of the web. Apps break often. They need a lot of support. Everything must be constantly updated. You never know when Samsung or Apple will push an update that breaks things because of some esoteric policy shift or setting change. But the web? If you do it right, maintenence is much easier. If things do break: users can try different browsers or devices to get around instead of being bricked. I can't be the only one who _never _ updates software on my phone until I absolutely have to. Everything is so brittle. I'm sick of being gaslit that apps make that better. Despite it's own horrible implementations, the web is far more stable.
• urbandw311er 1y ago
  Don’t forget the ability to send push notifications. I think that’s one of the main reasons — it turns your whole relationship with a product on its head: you lose control over when you’re engaging, instead they can literally push their services and ads on you.
  • baby_souffle 1y ago
    I have never liked notifications on iOS so I can't say for sure but I do know that on Android it's been possible to disable certain types of notifications or demote the urgency for at least 5 years now. Whether or not most people are aware of this ability is another question, I guess.
    • loloquwowndueo 1y ago
      Can do same on iOS. I get very few notifications - lots of apps want me to authorize them but I only do so for the ones that actually need to do it (PagerDuty, instant messaging, pushover). Also if any app abuses the privilege it loses it immediately (looking at you Twitter, eBay and Amazon).
    • AaronAPU 1y ago
      I get almost zero notifications on iOS, you can just disable them. There are a couple exceptions but they are high-signal and business purpose.
      • addaon 1y ago
        > I get almost zero notifications on iOS, you can just disable them. There are a couple exceptions but they are high-signal and business purpose. The one that gets me is Uber. For several minutes a month while traveling, I really want their notifications. But once a day when I don't, they use it to send advertisements for services I can't even use (no Uber or Uber Eats service where I live). I used to turn off notifications the first ad I got after getting home (usually within a day), but then realized it's easier just to delete the app each time. And if Lyft hasn't advertised at me by the next time I'm traveling, and they're still installed, well, they're the ones getting my dollars, since who has time to download an app each use?
• huqedato 1y ago
  Well good advice... in theory. Most of websites I use regularly are simply not "optimized" for mobile: broken features, display errors, inadequate UI, just unusable on the phone. And it's intentional: they're sabotaging the mobile experience just to push you into downloading their app. I have no option than using their f..g app.
  • frakt0x90 1y ago
    Yelp is one of the worst. So much so that I will do everything in my power to never download their app out of spite.
    • jeffbee 1y ago
      Why would you even use Yelp the website?
      • djoldman 1y ago
        I use yelp exclusively for photos of the menu, food, and display cases (with prices).
      • frakt0x90 1y ago
        What's the alternative? I don't use Google products and Apple maps shows Yelp reviews.
    • thaumasiotes 1y ago
      Apple Jacks used to run a series of commercials that had no message other than "Apple Jacks doesn't taste like apples." I thought this was so stupid that I determined never to try the cereal.
  • prmoustache 1y ago
    Why would you use their app if they are bostile towards you. That doesn't make any sense.
    • 1y ago
• deepsun 1y ago
  > If you've ever opened Reddit, LinkedIn, Pinterest And Facebook. I swear they intentionally make the website as bad as possible for mobile browsers. Explicitly disabled sending messages a few years ago. Do they really think someone who resisted their push to apps for 10+ years would submit one day?
  • djoldman 1y ago
    just for those who don't know: https://old.reddit.com/ https://old.reddit.com/
    • Tmpod 1y ago
      Unfortunately, i.reddit.com is no longer available :( Fortunately, Redlib exists: https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib https://github.com/redlib-org/redlib
• fsflover 1y ago
  Another argument is apps force you to use the Apple/Google duopoly on mobile, whereas websites can be opened on desktop and on GNU/Linux phones.
• creatonez 1y ago
  The Discord web app is nearly identical to the desktop app. The main things you are missing are global push-to-talk and rich presence (i.e. dicord spies on your process list and tells other people what games you are playing). I'm always surprised more people don't use it.
  • jayd16 1y ago
    Is that how it works? Don't you need to call into it with the Social SDK?
    • Tmpod 1y ago
      Nope. Games can do that to provide richer information, but Discord Desktop does scan your process list and even let's you chose which software to show or add a custom new one from the process list.
    • creatonez 1y ago
      It uses both methods, so that not every game needs integration to show up. If I recall correctly, you can just add arbitrary executables to the list. Set it to some system daemon like ntpd and it might say "has been playing ntpd for 49 hours" on your status.
  • Uvix 1y ago
    I also lose the ability to keep my place in my browser when I switch to it. (Yes, in theory, I could open another browser window for it instead of another tab. In practice, Chromium will pick the wrong window to remember the tabs from when it’s restarted, so I try to stick to one window.)
    • wizzwizz4 1y ago
      It remembers all the tabs: it just doesn't open them all. Ctrl+Shift+T should bring the rest back.
      • aspenmayer 1y ago
• rickcarlino 1y ago
  I dream of developing mobile sites that can play audio with the screen off and use the same media controls as apps (think: music player apps while driving). A lot of the things that make mobile sites second class is the lack of screen-off functionality.
  • garciansmith 1y ago
    The Video Background Play Fix extension for Firefox on Android comes close.
  • ryao 1y ago
    I have done this to videos on my iPhone using extensions called baking soda and vinegar. I then put the video into Picture in Picture mode, turn off the phone, turn it on, press the play button and turn it off again, with the audio still playing. It is not as convenient as the YouTube application, but I cannot copy and paste text from paused videos in the YouTube application or in YouTube comments either.
    • owebmaster 1y ago
      It works without extensions in Firefox + Android doing exactly the same thing (besides the picture in picture mode).
  • foxfired 1y ago
    You sure can: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/MediaSession https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/MediaSessio...
  • add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
    Ironfox/Firefox keeps playing audio when the screen is off and can pause/play from the lock screen and notification pulldown screen. I wrote a simple music player around the html audio tag.
  • quickthrowman 1y ago
    iOS Safari does this, at least on bandcamp and SoundCloud.
• koolala 1y ago
  I hate how Android ALWAYS asks to use the App. There is no "I prefer websites" button.
  • Aachen 1y ago
    That's not Android, that's whatever software you're using. I think I've noticed this in previous versions of Firefox mobile before, but not as much recently. And essentially never in Lightning browser. Where are you seeing this?
  • jauntywundrkind 1y ago
    I installed the GitHub app and immediately all the links on Google search to GitHub projects turned to "open in app". Absolutely toxic degradation of experience, taking meaningful data about where I was going to navigate and turning into useless dumb ignorant OS level garbage. I uninstalled the app, almost immediately. Because it poisoned my web experience, destroyed my ability to see where I was navigating on the web. But still Chrome shows GitHub links as "open I'm app". Even though the app is uninstalled, even though Chrome will open them, even though all I want and all that would be meaningful would be to show me a URL. It's beyond my imagining how toxically bad apps are. How the OS would prefer to poison us with a zero dimensional facimile of useful information, to shunt us away from useful experiences to route us into the awful bad no good low information indistinct app world. Apps suck so bad. The OS does nothing to make apps any good. There's no principles, no backbone, no nothing outside the web: just co-opting and exploiting users, offering low power low information experiences to people who know no power, have no agency, on and on.
• wordofx 1y ago
  Unless your FB/Google etc. no this isn’t why companies want a mobile app. They want the infinitely better experience and functionality it brings to their users to keep them as customers. lol downvoted but undisputed.
• shermantanktop 1y ago
  What are good examples of apps that have managed to monetize the precise location of millions of users in a way that isn't obvious (e.g. location-based advertising, or location-based filtering of social media content)? Collecting that data sounds creepy and nefarious, but if i think about what Experian and everyone else already knows about me, I don't know what information my phone's location would actually add that has enough value to build a massive telemetry engine. But perhaps I am insufficiently paranoid.
  • hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
    ‘Value’ and ‘how much and who would pay for the information’ are two different questions. It’s clear the answer to the latter is ‘alot’.
  • transcriptase 1y ago
    When “location” includes Bluetooth and wifi info, companies with a reason to invest can track your movement around a store to ~1m accuracy with BLE beacons etc. They know what you looked at in an aisle, for how long, and unless you paid in cash what you ended up buying via loyalty programs or credit card info. They also know, for each product you looked at and bought, or looked at and didn’t buy, what advertisements you were exposed to. On an individual level who gives a shit, but with large enough datasets you can essentially A/B test your way to psychologically manipulating people into more sales.
    • shermantanktop 1y ago
      Right, that’s how I view it. Access my data = high creepiness, low value Aggregate all the data = lower creepiness, high commercial value The big fat caveat to the first is if I’m a target of a nation state, or the police attempt to use circumstantial location data to pin something on me. Which is very real, and more so now than ever.
• lionelholt 1y ago
  I thought the main reason is because it's a lot more difficult blocking advertisements in an app.
  • velocity3230 1y ago
    I VPN home where I run Piholes and block all outbound DNS, DoT and port 443 to known DoH hosts. Works like a charm.
• josephcsible 1y ago
  I wish Apple and Google would make rules to the effect of "if your app's entire functionality could be done in a regular website or PWA, then you can't put a native app on our stores".
  • throwawaymaths 1y ago
    then they can't charge their app tax!
  • nomel 1y ago
    > if your app's entire functionality could be done in a regular website or PWA, then you can't put a native app on our stores A very silly threshold, since this would knock out probably 95% of the app store, including games, since "websites" are extremely capable these days, with full 3d graphics, etc. Then, each time safari added a new modern browser feature, more would get knocked out.
    • josephcsible 1y ago
      Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn't we be better off with all of them being PWA's?
      • Zak 1y ago
        It's not a bad thing for users. It would reduce the ability of Apple and Google to extract revenue from their stores though, so they're motivated to do the opposite.
        • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
          For more complex apps, efficiency could be a considerable issue. As capable as the web has become, it’s not very battery friendly for more advanced use cases.
          • Zak 1y ago
            Sure, native apps can be good for users in some cases, but this post isn't about those.
• crazygringo 1y ago
  I just despise the constant popups "The experience is better on the app, click here to download!" I read news sites I pay for by scrolling through the home page and opening stories I want to read in new tabs, and then slowly reading and closing them throughout the day. Your app can't do that. Your app doesn't support tabs. It also doesn't support basic things like letting me zoom in on an image. And sometimes it crashes when I try to load comments. I'm a paid subscriber, and I still get constant nagging every single day to use the app instead that is worse in every way. And I don't even know why. They're just news sites. They don't ask for any permissions to slurp up my data. I honestly don't have the slightest idea why they keep pushing the app.
• hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
  I’ve added pages to my ios home screen which almost appears as a native app with some success. The thing is when the app doesn’t implicitly show a back button either via bread crumbs, a ‘cancel’ button or similar, navigation becomes more tricky. It beats installing random things on my phone though.
• wouldbecouldbe 1y ago
  I understand but it’s not always with bad intentions. In the Netherlands we have a system called DigiD to login into to most government websites like your taxes and city, etc. When I contracted for the city of Amsterdam I learned they’ve been pushing hard for the DigiD app to two factor authenticate instead of text message, because of contracts Digid charges a lot per text message validation and none for app.
  • bramhaag 1y ago
    In this case there is also a perceivable benefit for the user. SMS 2FA is vulnerable to sim swapping, this is not possible when TOTPs are delivered in-app. The app is also FOSS [1], so even if you're paranoid you can still inspect what data is sent. There are also just some things you cannot realistically do in the browser (or over SMS) without having to ship specialised hardware to 18 million people, like reading the NFC chip of your passport. This is needed for DigiD Substantieel and Hoog, which are mandated by the eIDAS regulations. [1] https://github.com/MinBZK/woo-besluit-broncode-digid-app/ https://github.com/MinBZK/woo-besluit-broncode-digid-app/
    • esseph 1y ago
      TOTP is able to be intercepted on the device.
      • bramhaag 1y ago
        Yes, and that's also true for SMS messages and your passwords. That is why having MFA is important.
        • esseph 1y ago
          You can't intercept a passkey in the same way. It is also far less likely to be phished, and there is nothing transmitted. TOTP is the modern WPA2 of security - it's just not good enough when better alternatives exist.
• reflexe 1y ago
  I think that while data is a major point here, in my opinion, these are the reasons apps are preferred by developers: 1. Persistence: while websites are very easy to close, deleting an app is much more difficult and usually requires pressing on some “red buttons” and scary dialogs. It also makes sure the user now has a button for your app on their Home Screen which makes it a lot more accessible. 2. Notifications: while they exist for websites too, they are much less popular and turned off by default. Notifications are maybe the best way to get the user to use your app. And while I hate the dark patterns some companies use (Meta, AliExpress, etc), I do understand why installing the app worth so much to them.
  • msgodel 1y ago
    I actually do not want your garbage persisting on my machine and if you want to notify me you can ask for my email and maintain the required infrastructure to send me notification emails.
  • transcriptase 1y ago
    And why does a developer care about those things if not for the fact it means they can collect data even when the user isn’t actively using the service?
    • cheema33 1y ago
      > And why does a developer care about those things... I have several apps on my phone where I am interested in receiving notifications. 1. Airline app. While traveling I need to know about gate changes, flight time changes, etc. etc. 2. Credit card app. I have turned on notifications for all changes above $10. 3. Bank app. I have turned on notifications for all transfers. 4. Moen water meter app. If there is a water leak at my house, I need to know. 5. Server monitor app. If my website goes down, I need to know right away. 6. Google smoke detector. If there is smoke in my house, I need to know right away. 7. Tesla app. If I didn't close the door properly and walked away, the app lets me know. 8. Security camera app. If there is unexpected movement at my home or office, I get an alert. 9. WhatsApp and other messaging apps. When someone sends me a message, I get an alert. And those are only the things that immediately come to mind. If you were a developer of some of these apps, would you be able to provide these same functions in a user friendly way with a web app? Genuinely curious.
• kocial 1y ago
  There is only 1 reason for encouraging customers or users to use the app, and that is RRR (Retention, Retargeting & Re-engagement), which is very high in mobile.
  • gxs 1y ago
    You forgot data collection I think if people realized how much data they can get from your iPhone with simple permissions like WiFi they’d think twice about giving so many apps access
    • frizlab 1y ago
      This is getting less and less true though. Also WiFi permission is not a thing on iOS.
      • crimsontech 1y ago
        These apps were recently found to be collectind a huge amount of personal browsing data from the device, regardless of whether private browser mode was used or permission settings. https://localmess.github.io/ https://localmess.github.io/ This technique was discovered, makes me wonder how many undiscovered techniques are still in use.
        • frizlab 1y ago
          This is on android. iOS has usually less privacy issues.
      • gxs 1y ago
        I understand but less true doesn’t mean not true Also my bad, been a while since I installed an app believe it or not - also possible I saw this in android, but the general point stands
        • frizlab 1y ago
          Yeah permissions are relatively straightforward on iOS, and tracking w/o user consent is very much involved nowadays, whether in an app or on the web, and probably more difficult in an app.
• WorldPeas 1y ago
  as an individual more on the unconventional side I've gotten so dissatisfied with this that I have a donki nanote next just for viewing websites on-the-go. I really wish that people made a mobile device that could do the job of a phone and laptop. We have the technology.
  • rambambram 1y ago
    How is the Nanote Next? I've been eyeing these kind of small laptops for years, but never got to buying one. Is it only available in Japan?
    • WorldPeas 1y ago
      nope, it can be had via ebay for around 200 dollars, for which you get a metal chassis, 360 hinge, nice enough keyboard and track-nib, 8gb ddr4 and 64gb all to say that it's the basic system requirements to be a proper video-terminal into a mac desktop. The nanote itself has had some driver issues with its touchscreen (that I do not use, so didn't care to install) and screen rotation. I would say it's a shame we don't just have clamp on keyboards for our phones that are good enough to type on/tracknib and fit in our pockets, but that's perhaps for someone else to fix
      • WorldPeas 1y ago
        https://darekasan-net.hatenablog.com/entry/2021/04/23/145516 https://darekasan-net.hatenablog.com/entry/2021/04/23/145516
• inopinatus 1y ago
  Not mentioned in this article, but an installed app also makes it much easier for the vendor to maintain shadow profiles to identify unique users with multiple logins.
• frizlab 1y ago
  I do the exact opposite. I’ll use the app even if accessing the website is more convenient. Usually the app experience is more polished, and denying any permission is trivial. Also, I have a system-wide app/tracking blocker.
  • johnnyanmac 1y ago
    I tried to order McDonalds for pickup today. I got tired of twiddling with the website. I tried the app, disabled all the permissions. Instead, McDonalds kept trying to pop up and demand my location, even after I put a zipcode and started my order. This repeats 3 times throughout my small order. Then I get to checkout and somehow I pop right back up to the map screen, where I am once again asked for location permissions. this was some 2 minutes into choosing a restaurant and picking my order. I just uninstalled at that point and chose another eatery. Apps can get every bit as aggressive with permissions as they can with ads if their incentives really align with gaining them. That was a bizarre experience, but not the only one where I was badgered for permissions that the app really didn't need.
    • frizlab 1y ago
      I think McDonalds is the worst app there is. Most app works relatively okay-ish, often better than the website (trend is reversing a bit, but not there yet).
• hamstergene 1y ago
  The other side of the coin is that website forces you to trust your data to the website and almost always locks you in with them (the regulation to provide "export" of data worth nothing if competitors are not required to be able to auto-import it). It is not as one-sided as this articles presents it.
  • habibur 1y ago
    > website forces you to trust your data to the website Applies to apps too. The point was, you trust you whole disk to apps, in addition to this.
    • hamstergene 1y ago
      Apps are sandboxed and don’t have full disk access unless you want them to. Article’s claim that websites have same capabilities largely defeats its own argument that websites have less capacity to collect tracking data. Either can be used nefariously if isolation is leaky, and both can be secure if done properly. But sometimes apps are a better default: I would rather not have notes, audio/video recordings, and chats to automatically go to out of device unless I consciously opt in. Even when privacy is not a concern, there are still plenty of cases when I don’t want the website over the app. I don’t want ebooks reader, music app, bodyweight scale reader, vacuum robot and smart home controls, games to be on the web. Sure there are plenty of apps that shouldn’t exist, but just as annoying is relentless push for web/cloud tech everywhere just so they can lock you in on a subscription, mine your data behind the scenes, and risk mass leaking all to hackers. Always use website is a shortsighted advice that doesn’t consider the full picture.
• nmstoker 1y ago
  I wonder what people do in that one area they are so often reticent to discuss: porn. The (non-scientific) impression I have is that people don't tend to use porn apps, they stick with porn websites. Therefore, do people basically know apps aren't well behaved with their data and yet in other scenarios they turn a blind eye?
  • sedatk 1y ago
    Are there porn apps? I believe App Store restrictions wouldn't allow that.
  • barbazoo 1y ago
    An app can’t be hidden easily, in a browser you just go incognito. Some people just don’t want others to know.
  • SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    I think people want to hide porn until they don't want to hide the porn, and they don't want visible reminders on their phone.
  • aflag 1y ago
    I think it's more that people don't want others to see a pornhub icon when they are slowing holiday photos to friends and family. But they don't mind showing a Domino's app
• Beijinger 1y ago
  Reddit tries very hard to make you move to their app.
  • RajT88 1y ago
    Facebook as well. They responded to the criticism of people leaving their platform because the feed was all garbage and no friend updates by making a friends only feed feature you could only enable in the app.
    • Beijinger 1y ago
      If you use Facebook in a browser, install the social fixer plug in and put this into the hide options: follow Reels People you may know join
      • alex1138 1y ago
        Reels are ridiculously ham-fisted and there's no granularity Facebook has "content preferences" as an option, but you can't put "don't show Reels" in it Reels are listed 3 at a time so what is "hide this" even doing? It's kind of the same with Youtube Shorts. Show less of? Okay, very good, we'll just ignore that setting next time These companies need some serious goddamn competition, there should be real consequences for just ignoring your userbase
• frollogaston 1y ago
  Idc about privacy, apps are just annoying cause even downloading free ones requires auth for some reason (on iPhone), then they always want to update, then your OS gets too out of date and they stop working.
  • worik 1y ago
    > Idc about privacy Until you do. Then it is too late
    • frollogaston 1y ago
      Yes, except I won't care even when it's too late.
  • sadeshmukh 1y ago
    Default is to require auth for all installations - you can turn it off. For me, I keep apps to a minimum and haven't really run into too many app deprecations.
• notnmeyer 1y ago
  i use spotlight to switch apps. having everything in a browser messes with that.
  • paulirish 1y ago
    You can install webapps "as an app" which solves that problem... its own icon in the dock, cmd-tabable, etc. In Chrome this is under the "Cast, save, share" menu.
• ErrorNoBrain 1y ago
  I prefer having as few apps as possible so using the web is my go-to i dont have reddit, on my phone for example. Also, all those app icons are just "advertisement" every time you look at your phone screen... i dont need that. if you REQUIRE me to use an app, then i'm only using it if i absolutely have to. (there's almost always an alternative)
  • xxr 1y ago
    >app icons are just "advertisement" You wouldn't believe the volume of actual advertisements that show up as push notifications on my wife's phone
    • Mengkudulangsat 1y ago
      These are so infuriating they should be illegal. Especially when they come from apps you can't delete like your bannking app.
      • frollogaston 1y ago
        At least Apple has a rule against push spam, which they toe the line on but it's still a lot less bad than it could be.
        • paulddraper 1y ago
          Hasn’t seemed to work…
        • xxr 1y ago
          Does it work the way CAN-SPAM is supposed to work (marketing can be unsubscribed from with rules about what constitutes "transactional" messages)?
          • frollogaston 1y ago
            Kinda """Push Notifications must not be required for the app to function, and should not be used to send sensitive personal or confidential information. Push Notifications should not be used for promotions or direct marketing purposes unless customers have explicitly opted in to receive them via consent language displayed in your app’s UI, and you provide a method in your app for a user to opt out from receiving such messages. Abuse of these services may result in revocation of your privileges."""
• guzik 1y ago
  just 1hr ago (1 AM local time) I saw 'your app is live on app store' notification on my phone and eagerly launched it... only to have it crash instantly. After a debug session I discovered an obscure bug in tflite library that only shows up in release builds. 20 minutes ago I pushed a hotfix with an expedited App Review request, hoping to spare as many users as possible from that crash. I can't wrap my head around how the appstore review missed it, especially after rejecting our last build 4 times over a barely legible location-permission alert description. That said, I built my first mobile app 15 years ago, and to this day, building for mobile remains the most frustrating part of my programming life.
• redbell 1y ago
  > If you've ever opened Reddit, LinkedIn, Pinterest, or practically any popular service on your phone's web browser, you've likely encountered it. Another website that asks to Get The App is https://imgur.com/ https://imgur.com/ , every time you open a link to just view that image you instantly got asked to Get The App. It's really annoying!
  • frollogaston 1y ago
    Also uhh the default search engine in mobile Safari. Just Google searching gives you a half-page notice to install the app. If you have the app, it's a half-page notice to use the app. And guess what's inside the app, a website.
  • userbinator 1y ago
    I believe that's done based on user-agent header; but it shouldn't be surprising that the UA on a mobile browser is the hardest to change, showing once again that users' control of their computing devices is extremely important. With the appropriate UA, imgur will just give you the raw image data directly.
  • kristopolous 1y ago
    The "download app" notifications on reddit are like some kind of art project to maximimally annoy you. Probably the worst offender is facebook where they have what can only be called an intentionally broken mobile website - the idea of losing the person's name if you edit a comment, the page deciding to reload you back to the main page if you switch tabs to research something or the post box clearing out if you switch focus, the comment box being nearly impossible to navigate through with the cursor, these are all profoundly egregious bugs that have been there for years. Basically if you intend it to do something more substantive than comment a series of emojis, they have a bunch of bugs that block you. I'm guessing someone has made the calculation that being terrible in these ways are more profitable. Maybe people doom scroll more if the content is vapid? I'd love to see the user stories. "Brenda is a 52 year old professional who likes commenting "Happy Birthday" to AI generated images of people with cakes. She loves multilevel marketing and buying stuff on Temu. Her husband Greg, reposts memes programmatically generated by content farms using LLMs and topic trackers"
• rustystump 1y ago
  I cannot agree more and this has always been a pet peeve of mine. Most native apps are some half gig large where even the heaviest website is a few mb. They dont let you highlight text and have other bizarre design choices. Even worse, they request importing contacts list which isnt even an option on the web. Native apps could be butter but more often than not they are like margarine. Smooth, oily, and not good for you.
  • andrewstuart2 1y ago
    500MB average seems like a gross exaggeration. I agree apps are oversize but I have maybe 2 native apps on mobile that are so large.
    • dbtc 1y ago
      Chase Mobile for iOS is 350MB; far from 500, but still baffling why an app would need to be that large just to show me some numbers. Capital One is 435MB... Garmin Connect is 518MB for some stupid reason, while Strava is half that and Gaia GPS (great app), is under 100.
      • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
        Almost certainly has to do with how the app is built. Most thoughtfully built native SDK (UIKit, etc) apps clock in well under the 100MB mark, often under half or a quarter that. Bloat like that is usually due to unnecessarily convoluted tech stacks pulling in a list of dependencies that goes out to Mars and back, or for globally targeted apps sometimes it’s translations for everything in the app for hundreds of different languages.
        • frollogaston 1y ago
          Yeah but the native SDK sucks and isn't cross-platform, I don't blame anyone for not using it
          • 1y ago
• hnpolicestate 1y ago
  I agree. The intended audience agrees. The general population could care less and will continue to use spyware. I think the real question should be how do we go about making the public care?
  • johnnyanmac 1y ago
    I don't think we need to. You appeal to regulators and they can manage it in lieu of the public. That's what the DMA is doing in the EU. Most initiatives happen from action of a relative minority interest.
    • hnpolicestate 1y ago
      True. Responsible and ethical regulators who look out for an uninterested public is probably as good as it would get.
• smcleod 1y ago
  I'd much rather run a (native) app than have yet another browser tab. What I don't want is bloated Electron apps.
• HumblyTossed 1y ago
  Most apps today are just wrappers around the web site anyway.
• rtaylorgarlock 1y ago
  I want to love Tapatalk and forums so badly, but i will never forgive them for the years of spammy begs to download or 'open in browser.'
• paranoidrobot 1y ago
  The government where I live has a no-interest loan scheme for installing energy efficient appliances. Handy, so I used it to fund heat pumps and insulation. The scheme is administered by Brighte. I signed up on their website. Everything going well for 6 months or so. Then out of the blue, an email from them: "We just launched our app". Yeah, no, not interested. A few weeks later, another "You should use our app, it's so convenient!". No, the website works fine. Can I unsubscribe from these notices? Customer service says no. A few weeks after that: "Switch to our app. We are removing the website". I email them to complain: I don't want or need their app, just let me use the website. No,they say, it's definitely being removed. I ask how people who don't want to or can't use their app are supposed to interact with them now? "you can always call us instead". The idea of removing a perfectly functional website just to force everyone onto an app is insane.
  • dbetteridge 1y ago
    Victoria? But agreed the push to apps sucks, I just assume in these cases it's so they can spam you with notifications about "new products" they're offering, like my bank likes to regularly offer me loans at terrible interest rates
    • paranoidrobot 1y ago
      Tasmania. Yeah I'm assuming it's because they want to sell me more. I'm probably not earning them much with the no-interest scheme. But their approach has guaranteed I won't use them for anything else - I was looking at financing the solar and battery system but this just put me off.
• ElectroSlayer 1y ago
  PWA stores: https://progressivewebapp.store/ https://progressivewebapp.store/ https://store.app/ https://store.app/ https://www.pwa.com/ https://www.pwa.com/
• scarface_74 1y ago
  Websites can also access your GPS location and all of the other permissions the article named you have to give the app specific permissions for it. A website can track you across websites much easier than apps can
• sans_souse 1y ago
  I like the post. But I feel like I am reading a slightly edited Gemini AI response. Just me?
• poemxo 1y ago
  Depends on the app for me. I'd never install Facebook or Instagram just because of how aggressive they want your data. Reddit seems sus recently too. I install Discord though.
• xivzgrev 1y ago
  If the website even lets you access. I use empower personal capital to track finances and on mobile they only support their app. And if it's broken (like it has been for the past month), tough noogies!
• zholer 1y ago
  The primary challenge here is that companies are hamstrung by browser-level API's by companies like Google and Apple where they provide them only if you build an app. This forces developers to keep maintaining and providing apps, even though every developer knows that their headaches would be less than halved if they could just support the same capabilities via browser-level apis.
  • zholer 1y ago
    Google is a lot better in this regard though, but supporting most things on Safari are an absolute PITA
  • chpatrick 1y ago
    99% of apps don't need any native feature.
    • zholer 1y ago
      true, but 99% of the apps don't generate any traffic at all :) If you look at the top 1% of apps, all of them could have been PWA's but can't. Here is a case study from aliexpress who achieved a 104% increase across all users for conversions when they deployed as a PWA: https://web.dev/case-studies/aliexpress https://web.dev/case-studies/aliexpress
      • beached_whale 1y ago
        And Aliexpress is annoying as heck because they keep trying to redirect to app owned URI's for things like tracking. I'm already there to buy. The privacy of apps is just not as good as web with no benefit to me.
        • dontlaugh 1y ago
          I think that's more cultural. Mobile apps are very much the default in China and websites are rarely used through a browser, but rather as mini-apps inside other apps.
• bugsMarathon88 1y ago
  Remove the ability for your phone to get "apps" from an "app store" - the same ability allows a remote party full and unilateral access to your device without your consent nor knowledge. GrapheneOS is a great start if this reality bothers you.
• throwaway13337 1y ago
  The web gives us control over the way we interact with governments and companies. Because it allows modification, it can be used flexibly in ways that the organization did not think about or intend. This is always beneficial to the user. With the web, we have: - Translation - Read outloud - Plugins for dark mode - Ad blocking With apps, we have only what they give us. Apps are enshitification.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• pabs3 1y ago
  Use the open source alternative app instead, companies apps and websites are usually both proprietary.
• delfugal 1y ago
  100%
• kstonekuan 1y ago
  It’s unfortunate that progressive web apps didn’t really take off, I hate downloading so many new apps especially for mobile
  • jauntywundrkind 1y ago
    Yes and no. As an alternative to apps, it's a far better far more distributed system. But man. PWAs copy app behavior. And app behavior is garbage! The web has my back: I have forward/back buttons, urls, history, tabs, extensions, and so many other excellent amazing web things. The PWA is a vast improvement over apps, but it still misses 75% of what is so so good about the web, is still a place where you have only what the app developer grants you. The web is quite clearly better, is such a fairer shake, and it's so sad to lower oneself to an app experience, even if it is a "progressive web" app. It's a regressively sadly native apps, an RSNA. Boo that; give me the capable can do web instead please. I do think there's a lot of successes for PWA. It's on offer in a lot of places and a far better far safer option than native. But it's so curious to me that PWA was a thing, given that it has always felt like such a remarkable downgrade going from web to app, always. Appealing only to Stockholm Syndrome sufferers. Why? Why do worse?
  • fsflover 1y ago
    You can thank Apple for this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14864131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14864131
• chr15m 1y ago
  This website needs an "upvote harder" button.
• dumbfounder 1y ago
  Let’s look at a few use cases: Bank app: they use apps for increased security. Map apps: of course they need your location. And wow it works way better than web based. TikTok: in yeah they need access to audio to record audio. And wow the UI is smoother. Games: don’t ask for anything. Except more money through in app payments. Weather, uber, Lyft, DoorDash, Instacart: needs location. Streaming apps: actually sometimes need location to prevent you from streaming outside the jurisdiction. And it’s a better experience. Lots of other apps: don’t ask for anything. Does anyone let an app have access to their contacts? (Ok maybe just us nerds don’t) So, no. It’s not usually about data. Sure, some of it is. But this is the wrong thread to pull on. It isn’t why they all force us to use apps. The reason is that Apple has hampered the web experience to push everyone to apps. All of these problems are solvable with a web browsers, if it worked better. We have the technology. But Apple does not have an incentive to make the web work as well as apps. It destroys their revenue streams. They lose control. The problem is Apple, not all these apps that are trying to find their way in the walled Apple garden. Of course this isn’t true for everything. But it is true enough. Why would they kill the golden goose?
  • sergiotapia 1y ago
    All of those shortcomings were deliberately orchestrated by Google and Apple to keep taxing developers.
    • dumbfounder 1y ago
      Wrong, it was orchestrated by them to tax everyone. That was my whole point.
  • benlivengood 1y ago
    Even Signal asks for Contacts. Whatsapp asks every other time you open the app. I can't use Zelle on my bank's web page any more, they just redirect to their app which is literally just their website in an app.
  • efskap 1y ago
    >needs location https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Geolocation_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Geolocation...
• nightsd01 1y ago
  Thanks to the EU for ruining the web by forcing everyone to show the ridiculous "Accept Cookies!" agreement. No wonder people prefer native apps. They’re better - for a lot of reasons, both because they can interface more cleanly with OS specific features and also for performance. And 'privacy' is a horrible argument to prefer websites over apps. For the average person (not a privacy obsessed techie) - the web is just as bad if not worse from a privacy perspective than native apps. I do agree that not everything needs an app - websites have their place. But when I go to browse HN on my phone, I don't do it through the web, I do it through Octal (which is open source). Frankly I am tired of privacy-obsessed techies ruining tech for everyone else. Let's face it - 99% of the things you're worried about are simply going to let companies....show you ads that are more relevant to your life. The horror!
• ac1spkrbox 1y ago
  The website is often user-hostile, in hopes of pushing you to the app.
• kelvinjps10 1y ago
  For me it's ads when using the website with Firefox and unlock I know I won't get ads
• Mehuleo 1y ago
  I think for companies, the main advantage of an app is the opportunity for uncontrolled data ab/use. Let me explain. Say you order food online — you’d want a notification to update you, instead of having to manually refresh a webpage. So you prefer using the app. But what’s the guarantee the company won’t also send you marketing notifications? You give contact permission to access just one contact, but what’s stopping the app from uploading your whole contact list to their servers? You allow location for one check-in, but they start logging your GPS every minute? Every permission asked & given for right purpose end up as consent-full data siphons. And honestly, if the app world hadn’t taken off, the web would have invented its own version of permission systems. So yeah, I dis/agree with the article’s title — web can do everything apps can; including the shady data siphoning. Some people might argue that they need excessive data to serve right ads, make money and keep the app free — the only way. But I don't think so, even if you pay for the app, they will need excessive data to ensure you keep renewing.
  • roncesvalles 1y ago
    It's free advertising. Almost every time you use your phone, you see their logo. That's dozens of free impressions per day per person.
  • WWLink 1y ago
    > Say you order food online — you’d want a notification to update you, instead of having to manually refresh a webpage Browsers have a notification feature where websites can send you notifications, and it's usually enabled by default.
    • frollogaston 1y ago
      It has to ask for permission for that
  • frollogaston 1y ago
    It's more the other way around. If the app is on iPhone app store or maybe Google Play, they have rules to follow. Either way you have to accept push notifications, so if you do, nothing stops the website from spamming with those. Most users also won't automatically know how to disable push for a particular website, unlike an app where they just delete it worst case.
• kelvinjps10 1y ago
  I recommend to put the filter list adguard mobile popups, you can install it in unlock
• jay-barronville 1y ago
  > And let's be honest, how many of us meticulously read through every single permission pop-up? Most of the time, we just tap "Allow" to get to what we want to do. I do. I also, without exception, read and make sure that I understand every single word of every piece of legalese that I’m presented with to agree to and/or sign. My wife sometimes jokes that she married me so that I could become her in-house attorney. I digress… You should regularly review and reevaluate all of your devices’ configurations/settings from a privacy and security perspective (I do so at least once every two weeks).
• windex 1y ago
  Even on the web, you have to explicitly request the desktop site using options. Else you get served dark patterns.
• themingus 1y ago
  I've found it somewhat kludgy to use most apps in their mobile web version, which was for me a benefit more than a curse. The friction in using Instagram on the web was just enough to stop me from doomscrolling, without obstructing all access to seeing what is happening with the people I care about.
• 8n4vidtmkvmk 1y ago
  I don't offer a native app for my business. We have a PWA. It works great on mobile. Yet users keep asking for an app. They're so conditioned to look in the app store now. I keep having to tell them to just pin the website to their desktop. Just a couple taps. All good. I don't need or want their data. It's a liability. They pay a monthly subscription. I want their money. Not their data.
  • apigalore 1y ago
    Just don't collect any data. Having an app doesn't mean you need to collect any data.
    • DocTomoe 1y ago
      Sometimes it is not whether or not you do, but if you send the signal that you could. By refusing to provide a (superfluous) app, not only do you spare yourself the dev (and continued maintenance) costs, you also are not even as exposed to the data protection argument.
    • usr1106 1y ago
      But you need to develop and maintain 2 apps. And to deal with 2 ugly companies. And even F-Droid if you were an ethically responsible business. So the GP's approach makes sense if you want to run your business in a lightway fashion.
      • devjab 1y ago
        I know it's not exactly the same because these tools are for internal use and never see the public, but react native works well while keeping the maintainence at a minimum. I'm not in on the ops site of device control, but our IT installs the APK packages directly through the enterprise control they have, so we don't have to deal with Apple or Google. So I agree with you completely on that part, but cross platform maintainence isn't as hard as it used to be if your toolsets support it. I did maintain the Apple account for a previous place where I worked though, and holy hell that sucks. Not so much the day to day work, but being from the Scotish part of Denmark, it hurt my soul to pay them money (it wasn't even mine) to use their platform. Not sure if Google is as shit, never tried their store from the developer side.
• EasyMark 1y ago
  I use a mix. I only download apps that I use a lot. Everything else I use on the website.
• Animats 1y ago
  I want a web site for Waymo. I don't have Play Store installed, nor do I have a Google account. Even Uber has a web site from which you can get a car.
• yieldcrv 1y ago
  Basically if you arent the major app listed in the article, stop trying
• vismit2000 1y ago
  Everyone knows all the apps on your phone (1195 points, 3 months ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43518866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43518866
• sylens 1y ago
  The reason most people use apps instead of websites is that the devices they are using do not have a desktop class browser in them. iOS and iPadOS devices specifically run the mobile version of Safari which makes using modern web apps a painful experience. The one actual selling point a Microsoft Surface has over an iPad at this point is that you get to use real web browsers on it.
  • omeid2 1y ago
    What does "desktop class browser" means in practical terms? What is it in the mobile version of Safari that holds you back?
  • neilalexander 1y ago
    Your information is out-of-date. Safari on iPad has served up desktop versions of web pages by default for years now.
• mproud 1y ago
  This is why, when I need to use it, I only access Facebook from a web browser.
  • iammrpayments 1y ago
    While facebook is still usable, I use instagram on the browser and the experience is much worse, here are a few examples: - videos load much slower - you can’t reply to stories questions - if you click to see the comments on a video and go back, it will scroll to the top of your feed and rewind the video to the start. - you can’t go back and forward in a video - the icons such as like are tiny and take around 4 seconds plus to update without feedback while loading.
• mastermage 1y ago
  Depends on what kinda app i am using. I dictionary no thanks i want that as an app downloaded. Something that only works online anyways sure.
• bokkies 1y ago
  Needed a new SIM in the UK recently so ordered a pay as you go one from Vodafone. Discovered to my horror that the new payg 'plus' can only be used with an app (that's locked to UK Google play Store) and a credit card for monthly recurring payments. No possibility of buying credit on a website or In store. Presumably so Vodafone can slurp up credit card details and all the juicy data mentioned in this article. Tossed in the bin and found a regular old school payg sim that I can top up with cash from a corner shop, but presumably this won't be possible for much longer.
• viccis 1y ago
  >The answer, in short, is data. A lot of it. And access. A whole lot more of that too. This is it for reddit. They changed the Best sort to use general engagement metrics rather than upvotes (which are just one metric) back in 2021 [1], and this means that a lot of their metrics (time spent in comments, number of comments up/down voted, number of comments left on a post, etc.) benefit greatly from their app, which can track that with precision. This is (IMO) responsible for reddit's degenerated current form, as it prioritizes gossip subs, AITA type Jerry Springer subs, etc., but that's a whole different conversation. 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/o5tjcn/evolving_the_best_sort_for_reddits_home_feed/ https://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/o5tjcn/evolving_the_b...
• mikefreeman 1y ago
  [dead]
• Follow_Cloud 1y ago
  I totally agree with this point of view. Apps take up too much memory on mobile phones. I hope that browsing websites on mobile phones can be more convenient.
• 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
  "Websites can try to estimate your location, but it's far less precise and requires explicit permission each time." The better solution is do not use a phone. Using a phone requires using a mobile browser. One of the worst "apps" of them all. If it is Firefox, then one needs to block a ton of telemetry. It is constantly trying to determine if it can reach the internet and then trying to access "location.services.mozilla.org" amongst numerous other domains. Mozilla partners with Google. They share data.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    > Using a phone requires using a mobile browser. Not true. Sent from desktop Firefox on my GNU/Linux phone.
    • owebmaster 1y ago
      Which one? I've been looking for one without much success.
      • fsflover 1y ago
        Librem 5.
  • 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
    It is possible to avoid using a browser app when accessimg websites on a phone. For example, via the Termux app or "HTTP Shortcuts" app from F-Droid or Github. Sometimes corporate apps use resources from their public websites, not a dedicated "endpoint" set up for the app. For example, a weather app that uses pages under a folder called "widgets" from its website, or a grocery app that sources product images from an images folder its website's www subdomain. In testing I have accessed such resources outside the app, outside the mobile OS, from another computer, using any software. But Termux and HTTP shortcuts are apps, and subject to all the corporate mobile OS restrictions. There is no sysctl, nftables, iptables, tcpdump, etc. on the "phone". The kernel is generally not under the control of the phone's owner. As such, _for me_ the corporate mobile OS even coupled with impressive phone hardware, is inferior to a computer that it's owner, who is not working for a so-called "tech" company selling ad services, can control, by compiling and installing their OS of choice. That includes the kernel. Using Termux, I could submit this reply to HN from a phone using the 59-line shell script I normally use on a computer. It's possible. But I prefer the computer with the kernel I compiled myself. If I'm going to use a website instead of an app, I would prefer to do it on that computer, not a "phone".
• melchebo 1y ago
  Browser versions tend to burn more power.
• theanonymousone 1y ago
  I was a heavy Quora user from 2014 to 2019 with fairly many answers and questions. In 2019 they essentially blocked website for mobile users and urged them to download the app. That's when I decided to respect my dignity and deleted my account. If you have a website, everyone with a browser should be able to use it.
  • can16358p 1y ago
    Quora has been known for its dark patterns. At one point they didnt't show you a page if you clicked a link to it within their site and prompted to login, though if you copy paste the page link to a new tab it opened. They've never had my trust, and never will.
• BrtByte 1y ago
  Companies aren't just chasing engagement; they want persistent surveillance endpoints in your pocket
• iforgotpassword 1y ago
  Most annoying to me is Google maps. On web it is wasting so much more screen real-estate when showing a route, I can barely see the map itself. The app has much smaller ui components. (android)
  • BrtByte 1y ago
    Feels like it's actively trying to punish you for not using the app
• madduci 1y ago
  One big drawback is represented by banking apps, that force the usage of their apps to act as a 2 Factor Authentication mechanism, sending a request for logging in. I would like to use only the browser, but unfortunately for some use cases it isn't really possible.
  • pastage 1y ago
    If you use a third party for identification that works out better.
    • madduci 1y ago
      Unfortunately my bank requires the usage of their own app, since they send an.authentication request similar to the Google "confirmation"
  • xyse53 1y ago
    I don't install apps for simple websites, ever. Banking happens to be the one where I do keep the app for each bank/brokerage that I have an account with. Some of the features like mobile deposit work better. And the biometric login on Android is convenient when I'm looking up things quickly. (I use the banking websites too, and for those prefer hardware passkey where supported, and if not everything else is in bitwarden).
• zkmon 1y ago
  The problem is, this article assumes that you have an option to choose between the app and web page. This is not true in most important cases. The web site is gone or made a useless page which only tells you to download the app. Banks won't allow you to do much on their website. Infact, you can't login to their website if you don't have the app. I can't login into my work PC or laptop, if I don't use my company apps. Same goes for every serious app which need to ID you. The app-based 2FA/MFA is becoming the standard for the web access. This is a need or pattern created by availability of a bad solution. Similar to how the cars created sprawling cities in the USA which prohibits you using your legs. So, telling people to use website instead of app, is the same as telling them to walk to the corner shop instead of using a car. You can't walk to the many other essential places anymore, though. You can escape from the car if you live a small village that has everything you need. But you can't escape from apps and internet if you need to feel that you exist in this world.
  • scarface_74 1y ago
    Which bank is that where you can’t log into their website from PC or mobile?
    • msephton 1y ago
      My bank Monzo only has a minimal website. The app is everything.
      • scarface_74 1y ago
        This must be a thing outside the US as far as not being able to do everything on the banking website even on mobile. The exception is depositing a check.
        • wqaatwt 1y ago
          Monzo et al. aren’t “real” (i.e. traditional banks) they are purely online and entirely built around mobile apps. So there was probably no real demand for actual websites since all the banks clients signed up through the app to begin with.
• dartharva 1y ago
  I periodically delete my browser history and data for privacy (and many OEM Androids have a "cleaner" function that does the same). Having to log in every time is a hassle that's avoided by having dedicated apps.
• tempestn 1y ago
  At AutoTempest we resisted making an app for years, because anything that a hypothetical app could do, we could do with the website. And in my opinion, when searching for cars, it's more convenient to be in your browser where you can easily open new tabs, bookmark results, etc. And for years, it was our most requested feature, by far. We had instructions for how to pin the site to your home screen, and would explain to users how the website does everything an app can do. Still, constant requests for an app. Finally we relented and released one, and very quickly around half our mobile traffic moved to the app without us really trying to nudge people at all. People just really like apps! I think it suits our mental model of different tools for different uses. We've also found that app users are much more engaged than website users, but of course much of that will be selection bias. Still, I can see how having your app on someone's home screen could provide a significant boost to retention, compared to a website they're liable to forget. For us now, that's the main benefit we see. Certainly don't use any additional data, though I won't argue that other companies don't.
  • rplnt 1y ago
    > People just really like apps! I would say people really hate websites on mobile. The browsers are horrible, the pages are slow and oftentimes broken in some way. You get all these popups everywhere, ads are much more intrusive. It's just bad experience, so of course people would prefer app for something they use. I avoid the browser on mobile as much as possible and I don't remember ever having a good time using it.
    • PhasmaFelis 1y ago
      Mostly that's because devs want to drive people to the app, where they can track you a lot better, so they make their mobile sites shitty on purpose. Plenty of mobile apps are just webapps anyway under the hood. There's absolutely no reason for a mobile site to be massively worse than the app unless the devs want it that way.
    • crinkly 1y ago
      I hate everything on mobile. The apps are badly put together. The web sites are crap. I think Apple's core apps that ship with iOS are about the only things that don't annoy me. They work offline and disconnected for days at a time quite happily and generally work as intended. No one else seems to bother with that and rather ships some fat web turd instead that works occasionally and forces you to sign in all the time.
• Glyptodon 1y ago
  God I hate apps, but holy hell do a bunch of users prefer them. I don't get it at all, to me apps are sort of borderline comparable to having a stranger sleep in your closet, but it is what it is. And companies love it.
• hhhhhhhhhn 1y ago
  The control aspect is another downside to (proprietary) native apps. It is much easier to modify a website's behaviour with extensions and userscripts than it is to create a mod for a native application to do the same thing.
• d13z 1y ago
  I think we are missing the biggest elephant in the room: advertisement. An ad show on a native mobile app pays between 5x to 10x more than the same ad in a webpage. Advertiser's also get way more data from the mobile app than the data they can get from a webpage. The company I work for makes 75% of their revenue from showing ads and they pushed very aggressively to install their app.
• penguin_booze 1y ago
  On Android, I use the Hermit app. It containerizes webpages to give it an app-like look, feel, and some behaviours. It saves me from installing a lot of apps whose services offer website. I'd argue that a this task can be taken up by the mobile browser itself: i.e., to offer to install a shortcut icon that'll launch the page within an app container/sandbox. The common resistance to using website directly--and thus the preference to use the app, other than for performance reasons--stems from the inconvenience of typing and navigating on a small screen. If the browser helpfully offers to bypass that step (you've to do that at most once), a large number of apps would suddenly lose their pull.
• msephton 1y ago
  I advise non-technical and elderly friends to use the app simply because it's so much more secure than browsing the open web.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    Secure against which threats?
    • msephton 1y ago
      Website injections, Google search to find the website address and ending up on a fake site rather than simply typing it into the address bar, etc. So many. Apps don't sidestep all of them but enough to be an easy recommendation.
      • fsflover 1y ago
        PWA would work here as well.
        • msephton 1y ago
          I disagree, ads and web injection would be a worry.
• pflenker 1y ago
  Besides collecting data, there are more obvious and less sinister reasons for asking people to use an app: Engagement and real estate. Keeping the users up to date is way easier with push notifications, especially with younger audiences who are less likely to read email. And the app sits there on the Home Screen and advertises itself without having to do anything, while a web page relies on the user remembering its name and go there.
• echo42null 1y ago
  Honestly, this isn’t new at all. Most apps are pretty frustrating to use compared to just visiting the website. Even basic stuff like checking train or bus schedules or planning a route on Google Maps. It’s often worse in the app. With a browser, you can just open multiple tabs, switch between them freely, compare things side-by-side. Most apps don’t support this kind of multitasking at all. What’s even more annoying lately is the whole “scan this QR code” or “click this button to open in-app browser” flow. You try to log in, get sent an email, and when you click the link, the session’s already gone in the in-app browser. It’s a mess. So yeah… just use the web version. It’s simpler, more flexible, and honestly more reliable in most cases.
• PeterStuer 1y ago
  For a lot of non technical people, if the "website" was in the app store and installing just resulted in an icon for the site on the home screen they would never clamor for a "real" app. They wouldn't know or care about the difference.
• jonathanlydall 1y ago
  But it’s better in the app! (not for users, but for the website entity)
• bob1029 1y ago
  Lightweight SSR web apps running on modern server stacks can run circles around the overall experience of most mobile apps, which are oftentimes also just (much worse) web apps under the cover. HN is a good example of an SSR web experience done right. How often do you hear members complaining about lack of official hacker news apps? I think the biggest reason is because the site is so simple and fast. There is zero jank to run away from. I can participate on the site just fine even if I'm on the edge of no signal in the desert. I don't need a fancy offline client side model. I need it to be tight enough to fit across a shitty pipe before it disappears. UI/UX is one of the hardest things you can do, but when done well you can make it work in any medium. Native "feel" is not an excuse in my book. Safari feels pretty damn native to me right now.
• atroxone 1y ago
  The article is a reminder that the “mobile‑first” hype never really went away – most services still use dark patterns to get us to install their native app even when their mobile site works fine. Web apps are sandboxed; apart from cookies and basic fingerprinting, a site can’t do much unless you explicitly upload data. Native apps, by design, integrate deeply with the OS. They ask to read your contacts, track your precise location and movement, access your microphone and see what other apps are installed. Once granted, that permission often provides a “treasure trove of information and control” – and there’s no easy way to claw that data back. However, it isn’t just greed. Native apps still have advantages the article glosses over: offline support, richer push‑notification APIs and OS‑level integration all contribute to better retention and engagement – the first HN commenter notes that their mobile traffic shifted to the app almost immediately after they released one, despite offering the same functionality on the web. Users also perceive mobile browsers as slow and bloated, which is partly because platform gatekeepers have dragged their feet on enabling powerful web features (service workers, better APIs) and have financial incentives to collect their 30% cut via app stores. Regulation like the EU’s Digital Markets Act may help level the playing field, but today the trade‑off is real: if you want privacy and control, stick with the website – just remember that websites can track you too.
• RajBhai 1y ago
  I'm thinking of closing my ICICI bank account because the app requires granting SMS permissions.
  • mixermachine 1y ago
    Yer that is likely a bad implementation of the automatic confirmation feature. iOS and Android both make it possible to register a receiver for very specific SMS messages with additional permissions. ...or it is just a dump data grab
• bmacho 1y ago
  What about: - make your website not suck - provide an app too, for offline usage or when your website has become unavailable
• cornfieldlabs 1y ago
  We are building a social network with chronological feed and we are building a mobile-friendly site instead of an app. If the site takes off, I think we will have to build a mobile app even though we don't want to. Non-tech users don't care about web. As someone who pushed everyone I know to use Firefox with uBlock on Android, I am disappointed But as someone who uses old.reddit.com on mobile, I am not surprised
• jokoon 1y ago
  Apps are just faster than websites I don't see anybody in the comments mentioning it.
  • fsflover 1y ago
    They don't have to be with the power of modern phones. It's probably a deliberate trick to push you to use apps.
  • owebmaster 1y ago
    lol which one? The apps I have to use in my phone are all bloated and slow.
• cadamsdotcom 1y ago
  This is about hijacking your plans. Having the app installed makes the initial load instant - big dopamine rush! Seeing their logo on the home screen, before you even open your browser, means you might forget your big plan to search for alternatives. “Oh! Airbnb! I’ll just look there!”
• defraudbah 1y ago
  I like mobile apps when I need quick access to a feature on the go. All my bank operations are done from the mobile app, I rarely use the website, and for best banks - never. Mobile apps are great, but it does not mean you need one
• leontrolski 1y ago
  A reminder of all the features available right now with PWAs - https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today
• 44za12 1y ago
  You know what’s wild? We’ve reached a point where the “download our app!” pop-up is basically the digital equivalent of a mall kiosk worker chasing you down with a lotion sample. I just want to read the article, not sign up for a recurring relationship. The web is supposed to be open, frictionless, and—dare I say—fun. Instead, it’s become a minefield of dark patterns, nag screens, and “please enable notifications!” popups. I love that this post is pushing back on the norm. Maybe, just maybe, we can start a movement to make the web usable again. Or at least make “No, thanks” actually mean “No, thanks.”
• amibm 1y ago
  Totally agree. It's even difficult to accommodate too many apps in the mobile. I myself have been very cautious about the permissions, but it's a planned collaborative design of the smart phone ecosystem and so it's nearly impossible to protect personal data completely. Also the entire tech industry is almost surviving on the promise of surveillance state and economy as if looked carefully there aren't that many success stories of the tech outside of the very obvious financial and automation industries. And that can serve only upto a certain level, but the hype of tech is way beyond that. To match that, they are desperate to break any law and all morals. Also a glance at our own investment portfolio will tell us that it's our collective quest for wealth growth is the actual driving force of this 'everything financial' tech industry.
• zabil 1y ago
  I’ve noticed that every time I open a browser to use the web version of an app, I get distracted and end up browsing unrelated stuff. Switching to a standalone app helps me avoid that — fewer distractions, less wasted time. I’ve tried breaking the habit, but this is one reason I still prefer desktop version of the website.
  • greenchair 1y ago
    do you have the same problem at the grocery store?
    • zabil 1y ago
      Surprisingly, no. I make a list know the aisles, pick stuff. But it’s not the same case on the web.
• theshackleford 1y ago
  > If you've ever opened Reddit, LinkedIn, Pinterest, or practically any popular service on your phone's web browser, you've likely encountered it. Why leave out an incredibly egregious offender here in good old google? I'd been relatively on the fence google wise until they started consistently and repeatedly asking me to install their bullshit app. Why on earth would I ever want to install your app when all I want to do is run a fucking search query and leave you again?
• notarobot123 1y ago
  Who do you trust more with your data: an advertising funded platform or a data hungry app? The whole ecosystem is compromised. We need new protocols.
• yallneedtoget 1y ago
  [dead]
• yallneedtoget 1y ago
  [dead]
• ahoog42 1y ago
  regarding data collection, both android and ios provide multiple ways to review, approve/deny, and manage access to data. it's certainly not perfect but is being constantly improved. And for the HN crowd, you can always run mobile security/privacy tools like mobSF to inspect the app. I'm not suggesting we should have to do this but we can and frankly browser fingerprinting is opaque, also constantly evolving and quite good at tracking and data collection. i'm not sure avoid the better ux of a native app is much worse and given the privacy tools and data available, I generally prefer the native app
• dwedge 1y ago
  I agree with the article but it's not like there are zero benefits to the app. When I have low or intermittent data, a local cache plus minimal data sent to an API is usually much more responsive
• evrennetwork 1y ago
  [flagged]
• shahzaibmushtaq 1y ago
  In third world countries where literacy rates are below 50%, the population only uses smartphones for apps and don't know what websites are. Until the early 2010s this wasn't the case and people were educating themselves on how to use websites properly. If traffic laws can exist, then there must also be international app laws to educate people.
• zkmon 1y ago
  Today's world requires people to be ID checked everywhere. That requires the humans to be connected to internet. But humans are a biological things. How can they connect to internet? Well they can have chips embedded in them. A simpler approach is ... have a mobile phone and an app. Your mobile phone + app is similar to the network card that desktop used to have. Network card provided identity for the desktop and connected it to internet. Phone+app connects humans to internet with ID check. A browser can't do that, because browser is not considered 1-to-1 with humans or part of the humans, as much as phone is. Phone+app is your virtual clone. Browser is not.
• wg0 1y ago
  Unfortunately - its easier said then done. Specifically with offline first scenarios, you'll end up with lots of JS and client side shapes that need local persistence and sent back to server. So while view transitions should be first consideration for always online apps such as ticketng system, price comparison, classified portals etc but they aren't probably that suitable for offline first scenarios that keep operating even in face of few days of Internet outage.
• notsydonia 1y ago
  Great piece. There was a point last decade where literally every person I encountered, upon hearing about my site, would start badgering me to "get an app." If asked what this hypothetical app could do that the site didn't, the answer was that it would just be good to have an app. Now in 2025 my biggest app-pain is being in the already useless live support chat for a phone co or utility company and they keep insisting that I'll get actual support if I download their stupid app. Again, they can't cite a reason - it's just "better." For data-brokering, sure - for the user, barely ever.
• prepend 1y ago
  The main benefit I liked with apps was at least I only logged in once and then stayed logged in forever. I liked this with apps whose security I didn’t care about- lamp bulbs, Alexa, insurance benefits, etc. But now I get prompted to log in again and so I’d rather not take up the space for the app on my phone. Uber Eats is 500MB and should be a web site only app. Etc etc
• everyone 1y ago
  Asking as a software dev, is is better to have a website or an app? I would just assume that a website is better for getting new users cus of the lower bar to entry, theres no install, a lot of peoples phones are full. Also you can go from QRcode or clicking 1 link directly to the app. Whereas with an app, you have a link or QRcode that goes to the correct store, then install on the store, and then open. I get that an app would be better for retention, as they could put the icon on their desktop (or whatever it's called) But I assume a site would be better for getting initial visitors cus of much lower barrier to entry.
  • SJC_Hacker 1y ago
    You can write your app in Flutter and target both at the same time. Even a desktop-native version if you want :-)
    • owebmaster 1y ago
      Flutter is on its way to Google Graveyard tho
• yreg 1y ago
  The article talks about user data, but for small developers it's also about monetization in general. I have an iOS app that could easily be a PWA. I don't collect any data. My advertising budget is $0. I would never be able to get anywhere near the amount of paid customers I have if I have offered the same service through a website instead.
• mrbombastic 1y ago
  I don’t really think the desire for more data holds up as the primary motivation for companies wanting apps. To be clear I also hate being forced to use apps, but every metric I have seen shows app users are more engaged, make more purchases and have better retention then website users, I don’t remember specifically but it was always significant like 3x, and yes they want push notifications and those direct channels to customer on their devices. Apps are sandboxed and generally pretty privacy focused if you just tap no when they ask you for your first born. Contacts? You need explicit permission. Photos on device? You need explicit permission. Local networking? Explicit permission. Push notifications? Explicit permission. Cross site tracking? Explicit permission (although that is more recent and i am sure bad actors find ways around it).
• BobbyTables2 1y ago
  I especially detest companies whose website detects mobile device and absolutely forces use of the app when the website is perfectly usable from a desktop.
• sprinkly-dust 1y ago
  My biggest peeve with the forced push towards apps is that you're often forced to fork over permissions to access valuable data that they couldn't otherwise gleam glean from a browser. Chief amongst this is the Contacts permission. If you are one to carefully curate your contacts book to contain addresses, emails, birthdays for your own convenience and productivity, you have now provided a veritable goldmine of information for these companies to plunder, and betray the confidence of your acquaintances. I really despise this, and I've been looking for a solution but none thus far have seemed satisfactory. I know of apps (at least on Android) like Bouncer and alternatives from F-Droid that can temporarily grant access to certain permissions like Location for a few minutes at a time, while giving the apps the illusion of full access. However, save for using a Private Space or different user profile (both similarly require provisioning basically an extra instance of Google Play and everything) I haven't yet found a way to feed some sort of dummy contacts book to these greedy apps. If anyone knows of such a solution that is more convenient than setting up a new profile then please enlighten us.
• rishikeshs 1y ago
  This is exactly the philosophy of what I’m building at TrackMonk! It’s a chat-first health tracker. Goal is to reduce as much friction as possible when it comes to health tracking! Link: https://trackmonk.app https://trackmonk.app
• javader 1y ago
  The only way to make website usage more prominent is to do the Windows Phone approach: make every browser tab the same as an app tab. If you treat a website the same as an app, there is less need for the app. Although what sucks with websites is to always see the address bar and often having little to no settings nor notification support.
• msukkarieh 1y ago
  One interesting side effect of this for instagram is that the website is much worse than the app, which makes it much harder to doom scroll. I have the app deleted on my phone and occasionally visit the website to check for messages and updates from friends
• slipperybeluga 1y ago
  [dead]
• jraby3 1y ago
  I feel like this didn't touch on the second most important reason not to download the app. Most of us over use (or are addicted to) our phones and especially to social media. Every barrier you can put in you way to prevent opening it is an improvement. Opening safari and then having to type in the site name is a better barrier than just opening an app. Logging out every time is a barrier. Putting timers on websites through screen time is a barrier. All these tools help us fight against tech controlling us instead of us controlling the tech.
• rock_artist 1y ago
  I’m also (old enough? to) avoid apps when I can. Sadly the history made it a thing. And while it’s not only Apple. As the early incarnation of mobile web. Apple has a lot of it on its name. 1. Original iPhone aimed for that. No AppStore. But developers especially when web stack was poor, wanted native access. It did make sense back then to ideas like WhatsApp or some audio and video apps. 2. Then Apple understood they can get a cut if they operate the AppStore. 3. Then companies understood they can benefit from more data…. I’ve recently moved country and that’s real lame. Almost any supermarket or restaurant here wants me to become a “member” and enforce me to download their app (no web!). I’ve ended up creating another Apple account since those apps weren’t available in my origin country AppStore. Most of those apps can pretty much be web apps (they actually are :) ) but insist of me downloading something with more data.
• hdb385 1y ago
  [flagged]
• ergocoder 1y ago
  Native app UX is much more superior unfortunately. For almost everything like Zillow, Booking.com, Reddit, Gmail, Map, and etc.
• jstummbillig 1y ago
  Make the website good. The amount of effort that goes into good apps exceeds and detracts from the care that goes into the mobile web experience.
• replyifuagree 1y ago
  I'd love to. First you need to get Tim Cook to stop sabotaging mobile web.
• cjk 1y ago
  The author makes some good points, but native apps can absolutely provide a better experience than web apps in certain scenarios. Bloated web apps with megabytes worth of JavaScript and CSS, crappy rendering performance, etc. are all too common. Far too many web apps are unusable or broken if you have any content/ad blockers enabled, which are almost a necessity in order to use the modern web. Conversely, you download a native app once, and update it infrequently. Load times can be instantaneous. Offline support is far more robust. To completely write off native apps just because some of those apps abuse the trust of users seems silly. Plenty of web apps have piles and piles of invasive ads and trackers as well.
• tonymet 1y ago
  I try to encourage better app quality by giving 1 star reviews ... - when an app abuses data it doesn't need - when it's slow or the app download size is too big - when it has hostile user interface patterns: like forced upsells, forced ad interstitials - poor security practices
• kenny239 1y ago
  > Think about it this way. What can a website on your browser really get from you? > Apps, on the other hand, are a different beast entirely. Then the article mentions how it can collect user's location, contacts, etc. But some of those information can be tracked by linking the google tracker (and various other trackers) to the website visitor's identity. It's harder but it can still be done (privacy badger and other methods can help i think).
• sdotdev 1y ago
  Having a website and then a PWA for the people that REALLY want that is what I think the best arrangement is. Especially with the control that the stores (specifically app store) can have on you, the freedom of a website is much better than an app.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• mynameisjoseph 1y ago
  This is a bit off topic, but mobile first has caused some websites to not support the desktop version at all. They say there are not many users access them from PCs. I'm very shocked that they just have decided to end the desktop version support because of current # of visitors, even though they have given superior experience through the desktop version. These days I feel like our window to look around the world getting smaller. I have a 32 inch monitor but to shop something, I have to use my 6.8 inch phone.
• skratix 1y ago
  The article overlooked another important reason for companies to push their apps: Notifications. Notifications are the spam of 2020s. Just like with other permissions, people mindlessly accept permissions for the app to send notifications, opening a huge marketing opportunity for the app vendor. People even keep those notifications popping up on their smart watches! Ads directly on your wrist - it's a marketers wet dream come true.