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Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years in prison
- bowsamic 3y agoI can't believe how many people here are defending him to be honest
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoAm i dreaming, Americans clarify is there like a catch that he’ll be out in 2.
- tithe 3y agoSeems low for what prosecutors consider "one of the biggest financial frauds in U.S. history." https://www.reuters.com/technology/sam-bankman-fried-be-sentenced-multi-billion-dollar-ftx-fraud-2024-03-28/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/sam-bankman-fried-be-sent...
- hluska 3y agoIt puts him in between Madoff and Holmes.
- misiti3780 3y ago25 years is a long time. Not saying he doesn't deserve more but his parents will probably be dead by the time he gets out, and he wont have a family. Also, he was addicted to the internet (supposedly), he wont have access to that either.
- gizajob 3y agoHis parents who are professors of legal ethics? His mother is getting a long-term lesson in the theories of consequentialism that she is a supporter of.
- yellow_postit 3y agoIt seems unlikely he will serve that full time though I don’t know the specific parole eligibility constraints for these charges.
- nemo44x 3y agoYou need to serve 85% of your sentence in federal prison. He will likely appeal for a reduction.
- werewrsdf 3y agoThere is no parole for federal crimes. https://www.justice.gov/doj/organization-mission-and-functions-manual-united-states-parole-commission https://www.justice.gov/doj/organization-mission-and-functio...
- yellow_postit 3y agoDidn’t realize that — thanks!
- SoftTalker 3y agoPossible that some future President would commute his sentence or grant a pardon. But unlikely.
- PokedBear 3y agoIf someone isn't a violent threat to society, there isn't much social benefit to keeping folks locked up longer then 20-ish years. 20-25 (assuming he gets the 15% off for good behavior the feds allow) is plenty.
- shiftpgdn 3y agoI think ruining thousands of lives through fraud without remorse constitutes a threat to society. He should never see the light of day again.
- esotericimpl 3y ago[dead]
- swyx 3y agonot to be too unsympathetic but if those people he defrauded (which yes is a very bad thing) were all crypto degens gambling on things they knew they shouldnt be gambling on, does that change the calculus at all
- COGlory 3y agoNo
- floor2 3y agoWhat lives did he ruin? The USA has an incredibly robust, tightly monitored and regulated financial market. The SEC, FDIC and associated regulators and auditors carefully control bank reserves, prosecute insider trading, prevent and insure against fraud. Some people decided to opt-out of that system and send their money to an unregulated entity in the Bahamas to buy imaginary money without government oversight. Honestly the government shouldn't have intervened here at all. The people who lost money should have been laughed at and told that's why you put your money in the regulated market. If you intentionally try to avoid taxes, anti-money laundering regulations, audits and securities law by buying crypto overseas, then taxpayer resources don't go bail you out.
- chongli 3y agoLow? That's high! He didn't kill anyone. A sentence of 25 years completely destroys his life. He's been made an example of.
- malermeister 3y agoHe's completely destroyed thousands of lives through his actions.
- esotericimpl 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- n2d4 3y agoMaybe he didn't kill anyone directly, but I can assure you that plenty of people committed suicide solely as a consequence of his actions
- kosievdmerwe 3y agoOne of the victims at the sentencing mentioned that there were at least 3 suicides.
- floor2 3y agoMaybe don't send your money to an unregulated startup in the Bahamas to gamble on cryptocurrencies if losing that money is going to cause you to commit suicide? The "victims" knew they were intentionally avoiding government oversight of securities law, banking regulators, etc. When they lost money we should have collectively shrugged our shoulders and said that's the risk they chose to take.
- infamouscow 3y agoIs there any limiting principle to your remarkably stupid* rationale where everyone assumes all risk of their decisions implicitly and explicitly? *: yes stupid, not an ad hominem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc
- klodolph 3y ago25 years is a damn long time. I don’t know how that can “seem low”.
- objektif 3y agoHow much Bernie madoff got?
- aeyes 3y ago150 years
- wut42 3y ago150 years.
- arrowsmith 3y ago150 years - of which he served 12 years before dying in prison.
- zarzavat 3y agoHe was already old so he was going to die in prison whatever happened.
- kosievdmerwe 3y agoMadoff spent ~12 years in prison before he died at 82. They gave him a 150 year sentence for a crime on par-ish with SBF's crimes, because at 70 there is little difference between 20 years and 100 years, so you may as well go for the shock value.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- SoftTalker 3y agoPart of it is that he took it to trial. He likely could have negotiated a deal for single-digit years if he had admitted guilt and cooperated.
- coldpie 3y agoI don't know. The appropriateness of the sentence is not something I feel super strongly about one way or the other, but 25 years is objectively a very long time. Think about what a typical person does in their first 25 years. That's long enough for a person to be born, go through early childhood, go through all of their basic schooling, attend college, get a job and work for 5 years, and have a kid of their own. Or, think about a 25 year old person, and put them next to a 50 year old person. Or a 50 year old person next to a 75 year old person. It's just a very long amount of time, no matter how you slice it.
- hammock 3y agoShall I pull up some comps? It’s not going to be pretty
- whywhywhywhy 3y agoShocked he’s going at all, was starting to feel like he’d get away with a slap on the wrist considering his contacts.
- mikeryan 3y agoBest teacher I had in high school taught economics. First day of class his lesson was "If you're going to become a criminal follow these 10 rules". I can't remember all the rules but the two I do: 1. Don't do anything for less than $1M. Risk isn't worth the reward. 2. Don't use a weapon. It adds years to your sentence. It was mostly about how white-collar crime has a much safer risk/reward ratio.
- colechristensen 3y agoHow you commit crime is make it complicated enough that a prosecutor will think twice about their ability to teach a jury about how what you did worked and that any of the steps were even wrong in the first place. This is why so much financial crime goes unpunished.
- AlchemistCamp 3y agoHe was playing fast and loose with clients' money (and ultimately made profitable investments). Elizabeth Holmes played fast and loose with medical testing and people's very lives. She got less than half this sentence.
- gosub100 3y agoI think intent matters. I don't like what he did but I am convinced he didn't think he was doing something deceitful. Whereas Madoff had a guilty conscience and precisely crafted something intended to deceive.
- santoshalper 3y agoSBF is 32 years old. If (and it's a big if) he serves the entire 25 years, he will be 57 when he is free again. They are taking the best years of his life, and one day when he dies, having been imprisoned will be the defining event of his life - not being rich or being a CEO. He may never marry, never have children, and will experience a very different (and far worse) life than most of the population. I have very little sympathy for the man, and I know draconian punishment is fashionable and cathartic, but I personally think this is a very suitable punishment for the very severe crime he committed.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dandanua 3y agoIt seems "the victimless crime" [1] became a normal line of defense when billionaires commit financial fraud. Insanity. [1] https://youtu.be/EDMinX6t1Zk?t=420 https://youtu.be/EDMinX6t1Zk?t=420
- misiti3780 3y agoA year ago, HN didnt think he was going to jail: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33908850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33908850
- swader999 3y agoYes, I was one of those doubters.
- arrowsmith 3y agoI had my doubts, but I'm glad to see they were unfounded. He's getting what he deserves.
- rsynnott 3y agoWhy, as a matter of interest? These _really_ big, blatant frauds usually do; see Madoff, Holmes, et al. Like, it's hard to see how he'd avoid prison, certainly in the US. Other noted fraud-y bitcoin exchange guy Mark Karpelès avoided prison after conviction, but the evidence was much weaker there and they only found him guilty on fraudulently inflating MtGox's holdings (a la Donald Trump); also, that was Japan. (Fun fact; after the collapse of MtGox, Karpelès went into business with Andrew Lee, the guy who broke freenode and claims to be the Crown Prince of Korea. The world of weird internet grifters is small and incestuous.)
- swader999 3y agoHe was well connected, especially his parents. Huge political donor. He likely would have recieved a small sentence and somewhat validated my doubt had he not purgured and witness tampered during the trial.
- rsynnott 3y agoSure, but, like, so were Madoff and Holmes. Henry Kissinger, _Henry Kissinger_, was on Theranos's board. Rupert Murdoch invested. I don't think SBF really had anyone on that level? There is a certain point where it no longer matters; such connections would only really matter if they could get the investigation stopped. Once it goes to court, assuming it's a proper court, those sort of connections kind of cease to matter.
- zippothrowaway 3y ago[flagged]
- misiti3780 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33908850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33908850
- hluska 3y agoWhat’s with the sudden turn to “haha everyone was wrong in the past” on here? There’s nothing wrong with being wrong. What’s the point?
- segasaturn 3y agoThere's nothing wrong with being wrong, but its important to remember the times that we were and remind ourselves that we are not infallible :)
- winwang 3y agoI'd say it depends on how confident/aggressive someone was. Perhaps OP didn't word it the best way, but it's also good to pause and reflect?
- jeffbee 3y agoIt is absolutely worth remembering that much of the commentary on this site is written by some of the most gullible people on the planet. Aside from SBF-Biden conspiracy fans you also have your anti-vax guys, your climate denial guys, suckers for the latest superconductor scam, people who are still falling for a giant astroturf campaign by the fission industry, blockchain believers, and much much more.
- spencerflem 3y agothe point is that the older comments were confidently accusing the democrats of being corrupt, in a way that they weren't. its political
- zippothrowaway 3y ago
- w0z_ 3y agoThe US prison sentence lengths are insane.
- swader999 3y agoThree suicides related to the theft.
- zarzavat 3y agoPeople also commit suicide if the bank repossesses their home, their spouse has an affair, their surgeon makes an error, etc. I’m not saying that SBF has no culpability, but I don’t think you should get prison time for causing someone’s suicide, or at least society doesn’t act as if it’s in any way equivalent to murder.
- baobabKoodaa 3y agoThe scale of SBF's fraud was so enormous that the money could have been used to save hundreds of lives that have now perished. So if we use a little bit of EA napkin math, we can conclude SBF's crimes were on par to hundreds of murders.
- deeviant 3y agoHow so. Do you think it's too long, too short, too ...?
- arrowsmith 3y agoYou think so? 25 years seems quite reasonable to me. He stole billions of dollars.
- w0z_ 3y agoNot to undermine what he did. The US prison system just seems very unproductive, put him in a factory for 20 of those years.
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- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- desireco42 3y ago[flagged]
- sabana 3y agoQuite a short sentence for the magnitude of the crime. Financial crimes like these do kill people and destroy countless lives. They deserve maximum pentalties.
- ak_111 3y agoIt is long enough to destroy his life. What matters if he gets out at 70 or 80 if he gets out at 60?
- objektif 3y agoThat is a big difference. You can live a pretty good 15 or so years if you get out at 60. Considering that his parents are well off he will inherit some.
- AustinDev 3y agoHe gets out at 51. Somewhere around there with 25 year sentence at 31 with credit for time served.
- ak_111 3y agohow, he is 32?
- dragonwriter 3y agoI think its probably taking the approximately 21 years you get with the sentence with maximum good conduct time reduction, and also assuming credit for time served after his bail was revoked.
- nemo44x 3y agoHe will have to serve 21 years before early release. There is no parole in federal prison. I heard 5 years are concurrent making it 20 actual years. If that’s the case he can get out in 17 years. He wasted a good part of his life.
- arrowsmith 3y agoI don't get it, what's the difference between parole and early release? Also how do you get to 21 and 17 from 25 and 20?
- kosievdmerwe 3y agoParole means you're still serving your time and have a bunch of restrictions on movement and other things. Early release means your sentence is concluded and the only lasting impacts on your life is that of having been convicted of a felony.
- sgt101 3y agoIs this fedral? I thought it was Manhattan DA?
- nemo44x 3y agoNope, it's Federal. He has appeals coming up though. I have no idea what the outcome could be but there's an opportunity for the sentence to be reduced on appeal. Honestly, this sentence doesn't appear egregious or "being made an example of" so IMO he doesn't get a reduction. But, sometimes you get a sympathetic judge?
- nightowl_games 3y agoHonestly 25 years seems like way too long to me.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jimberlage 3y agoIf he’s eligible for parole at 1/3 of a 25 year sentence, he will spend anywhere from between 8 years, 4 months in prison or 25 years. That would make him somewhere between 40 and 57 when he gets out.
- jherskovic 3y agoNo parole in the Federal system. There's (some) time off for good behavior.
- jimberlage 3y agoSourced from https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/united-states-parole-commisssion-rules-and-procedures-manual#:~:text=A%20Federal%20prisoner%20serving%20a,sentence%20of%20over%2030%20years https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/united-s....
- dragonwriter 3y agoThat's from 1984, federal parole was abolished in 1987 (though people sentenced before 1987, IIRC, remain eligible according to the rules in place at the time.) SBF was sentenced somewhat after 1987, so those rules don't apply to him.
- jihadjihad 3y agoThis is a federal sentence, so there is no parole. The most time off you can get in the federal system for good behavior is 54 days per year of sentence, so less than 4 years off for SBF's 25-year sentence.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 3y ago> If he’s eligible for parole at 1/3 of a 25 year sentence He is not; there is no federal parole (for people sentenced ib the last ~37 years.) There is “good conduct time” that can reduce time served to not less than ~85% of the time sentenced, so around 21 years minimum.
- Minor49er 3y agoWhy does the title on Hacker News have "SBF" while the article title has his full name?
- misiti3780 3y agoIf I could edit it, I would fix it.
- vitiral 3y agoBecause we all know who SBF is by now
- gizajob 3y agoHacker handles for hacker fraudsters.
- dang 3y agoMaybe the submitter was typing it out? We've fixed it now.
- zozbot234 3y agoScam. Bankrupt. Fraud.
- gjvc 3y ago[flagged]
- redleggedfrog 3y ago[flagged]
- segasaturn 3y agoFor those wondering, prosecutors asked for 50 years in prison, defense asked for 5 years. So this sentence is right down the middle. 50 years in prison would have been way too long IMO.
- JKCalhoun 3y agoWell, 27.5 would be right down the middle. As others have suggested, likely he won't even serve the 25 though.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- winwang 3y agoIf you use the made up averaging scheme of ((5^p+50^p)/2^p)^(1/p), 25 is the limit as p -> inf (i think). ...Because it just simplifies to 50/2 lol.
- loeg 3y ago> As others have suggested, likely he won't even serve the 25 though. Because instead he'll serve 21.25?
- sgt 3y agoMaybe serve 15 then the rest with a foot tracker thingie at home?
- mikeyouse 3y agoNot with a Federal sentence.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoNo, he can be released after 12.5 years due to time credits for good behavior. Time credits used to be capped at 15% of the sentence, but due to the relatively recent "First Step" Act it's now 50%.
- gamblor956 3y agoConsidering the multitude of charges, this is actually pretty low. It appears he was sentenced to a less-than-full term for each of the charges, to be served sequentially (since if the sentences were served simultaneously, the total actual term would be much less than 25 years). We'll know more in about an hour. EDIT: Actually, the Verge has already reported:"The judge applied a 240-month sentence and a 60-month sentence to be served consecutively."
- vkou 3y agoGiven that all the crimes originated from pretty much the same offense, it would be highly surprising if the sentences weren't served simultaneously.
- chihuahua 3y agoI am puzzled by the concept of simultaneous sentences. Is "simultaneous" just a complicated way of saying "you get the max of the two numbers"? Because it's not like you're in a prison cell inside another prison cell. If I'm carrying 2 suitcases simultaneously, that's harder than carrying one at a time. But 2 prison sentences simultaneously is not harder than one sentence.
- ak_111 3y agoIs it possible he gets a pardon from Biden? Apparently Ross Ulbrecht who is arguably much more serious crime, was close to getting a pardon from Trump (he seriously discusses it with his advisors at least and expressed sympathy)
- jakeinspace 3y agoNo chance, it would be a very politically expensive pardon for no real benefit
- dralley 3y agoNo.
- thr0waway001 3y agoHe shoulda watched the end of the Boiler Room.
- bambax 3y agoI think that's about fair and reasonable. It's been said in Europe he would not have gotten more than years and it's probably true. 25 years is a really long time and even if he does only 20, still super long. Here's a live tweeting of the sentencing hearing; some of Judge Kaplan's remarks are really interesting. https://twitter.com/innercitypress/status/1773340043744010640 https://twitter.com/innercitypress/status/177334004374401064...
- TrackerFF 3y agoTbh, a bunch of American (high profile) lawyers had estimated that he'd only get a couple of years, max, as he had no prior convictions - and the nature of the case.
- EasyMark 3y agoI think they must be unfamiliar with the federal judicial system which is almost always on the conservative side of sentencing unless there were some extremely extenuating circumstances. There were none here, this was straight up greed and grift on Sam's part.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y agoThose slap-on-the-wrist punishments are reserved for members of the already-wealthy elite. SBF was an outsider who stole from these people.
- tombert 3y agoIf I broke into a person's house and stole $1000, even if I didn't directly hurt that person, I could expect to get several years in prison, basically regardless of the state. Lets say three years to be conservative on this? Sam Bankman Fried stole billions of dollars [1], probably often around $1000 at a time from tens of thousands of people. If going with my logic, he should be getting a lot longer than 25 years, upwards of hundreds or thousands of years. Obviously, it's not a linear relationship, the crime was non-violent, first-time-offender, etc. I'm just saying that 25 years seems pretty fair to me considering the magnitude of the crime. I am one of the victims (well, of Gemini Earn anyway), and I think if I were given the choice, I'd probably sentence him to 20-25 years. [1] Or at least so grossly mismanaged that there's no real purpose in drawing a distinction.
- objektif 3y ago[flagged]
- misiti3780 3y agoCan you provide some examples to back this up?
- foldr 3y agoI guess we can anticipate a huge spike in donations to the Democrats as people realize that they can get 25 years of prison time for the bargain price of a few million dollars.
- birracerveza 3y agoI wonder how many of those will actually be served... one way or the other.
- ceejayoz 3y agoFederal prisoners serve an average of 85% of their sentence. One year gets you 54 days "good conduct time" and that's about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_conduct_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_conduct_time
- arrowsmith 3y agoWouldn't that make 85% the minimum, not the average?
- ceejayoz 3y agohttps://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-briefs/2015/11/prison-time-surges-for-federal-inmates https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri... says 2012's average was 88%, so the two are quite close. I don't know how much it varies from year to year, but it would seem most are earning their good behavior time.
- laidoffamazon 3y agoI recall people very confidently saying he would never be prosecuted for his political ties.
- Analemma_ 3y agoThose same people have effortlessly pivoted to saying that 25 years is a slap on the wrist (I'd like to see them stay locked in a prison for 25 years to demonstrate they actually believe this).
- MattGaiser 3y agoThose people have pivoted to claiming either that a pardon is imminent or that 25 years is a weak penalty.
- stronglikedan 3y agoPeople say things all the time. That's not relevant to this story, and is kind of flamebaity.
- laidoffamazon 3y agoIndeed they do, including on this very website https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33717992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33717992
- petertodd 3y ago...and enough people pointing that out, and making it clear that they are outraged by the possibility of that happening, makes it harder to get away with him avoiding prosecution because of his political ties. This is likely an example of free speech and free press working to overcome corruption to achieve justice.
- ceejayoz 3y agoSo, any result would've been evidence of corruption? ("This is good news for Bitcoin.")
- hnthrow9009 3y ago[flagged]
- acdha 3y agoHow much do you think an extra 5 years would add in terms of deterrence? It seems downright dishonest to characterize a third of his life as a joke. Where I would put my energy into is making the risk of being prosecuted higher. If getting prosecuted is rare, the kind of people who are into cryptocurrency are going to figure that they’re likely to get away with it as long as they aren’t so blatant. White collar crime prevention needs to focus on changing that assumption.
- taytus 3y ago50 years. What the prosecutor asked.
- hnthrow9009 3y agoThe smaller players already avoid America like the plague and their avoidance is only increasing due to a zealous SEC decreasing the likelihood of successful prosecutions. Big cases make the biggest difference because diplomatic pressure can be applied, which is why it's a shame that the US flexed on the Bahamas like they did for a case that only gets 25 years.
- latexr 3y ago> How much do you think an extra 5 years would add in terms of deterrence? Your parent post isn’t arguing for SBF to get 30 years, but pointing out how a large crime which affected at least hundreds of thousands and drove people to suicide gets a lower sentence than a violent crime which affects one person. I have no idea if that’s true in the US, just trying to clarify the point.
- charonn0 3y agoThe biggest Ponzi scheme in US history was Bernie Madoff's.
- itslennysfault 3y ago
- walr000s 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- carabiner 3y agoMartin Shkreli predicted 20-25 years: https://x.com/wagieeacc/status/1768798879959400776?s=46&t=N5oP9SrFuyxd0pRLixzkBQ https://x.com/wagieeacc/status/1768798879959400776?s=46&t=N5...
- Gerlo 3y agoDang. He certainly called it.
- JumpinJack_Cash 3y agoHow much did Jordan Belfort get? Elizabeth Holmes? Mt.Gox guy? 25 years is an exageration to be honest, there was never criminal intent, if anything there was too much belief in their creature, less like Madoff and more like the Long Term Capital Management guys. I don't remember them serving a single day in jail. It goes to show that judges and prosecutors are just trophy hunters for media attention these days, as proven by the 1000s of proceedings against Donald Trump which costed millions of dollars and recovered exactly 0 dollars. In any event this goes to show that if you are on the spectrum and can't empathize you should RUN at the first sign of things going south. This guy was in the Bahamas too, from there you can reach Cuba with an Inflatable Rib with a 40hp motor, South America too, St. Kitts and Nevis too which doesn't have an extradition treaty and is the place that many real criminals call home.
- stephenitis 3y ago"Never any criminal intent" Sounds like someone didn't follow this case closely enough
- TrackerFF 3y agoHopefully it will scare / prevent others. The crypto space is rife with scams, so it's good to finally see some real sentencing.
- charonn0 3y agoBelfort cooperated with the FBI and got 4 years. Holmes got 11 years. The Mt. Gox guy was prosecuted in Japan.
- unregistereddev 3y agoI don't know if your questions are rhetorical, but they are easy to answer so I looked them up for you. These are only the prison sentences and do not include court-mandated restitution. Jordan Belfort: 4 years (served 22 months) Elizabeth Holmes: 11 years Mt. Gox guy: I do not know which guy you refer to. Two Russian men were indicted for the actual Mt Gox hack. Separately Mark Karpeles was sentenced to 2 1/2 years, suspended sentence, in Japan - but only for record tampering. He was found not guilty of embezzlement. This entire saga seems very very far removed from what SBF did. Bernie Madoff: 150 years
- adamtaylor_13 3y agoIt blows my mind that we let sex offenders off for less. Is it just me or does that seem backwards? Brian Peck got 16 months of prison and it seems to be that he caused a lot more harm to society than ol SBF here.
- sneak 3y agoYes, it is extremely backwards. The prison system in the US (like vehicle and environmental regulations in the US) exemplifies how little the culture there values human lives and lifespan.
- rootusrootus 3y agoA plausible alternative is that the culture in the US puts considerably more value on the lives of the victims and assigns nearly zero value to the life of the criminal. Arguing that people should "please think of the criminals" is a non-starter.
- adamtaylor_13 3y agoI agree. I hope that’s not what my original comment was implying.
- themaninthedark 3y agoBrian Peck was unfortunately allowed to plead "No Contest" rather then being brought to trial or pleading guilty. I can't find the case but he was also probably charged by the state rather than the Feds.
- rootusrootus 3y agoLegally, Brian Peck injured two victims. SBF arguably injured far more than that (especially if you assign even partial responsibility for the suicides of people he victimized).
- adamtaylor_13 3y ago
- A_D_E_P_T 3y agoTo put this into its proper perspective, see table 7 here: https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/federal-sentencing-statistics/state-district-circuit/2022/nys22.pdf https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu... In 2022, the average murderer in the Federal Southern District of New York (N = 58) was sentenced to a median of 231 months, which comes out to 19 years and change. No crime of any type had an mean or median sentence higher than 25 years; most were far less than half. So it should be really hard to argue that this is a "light" sentence. If anything, it's excessive if you consider the nature of the crime relative to the nature of murder or kidnapping.
- ellis0n 3y agoIt is bad to steal from lawyers, economists and judges at the same time. This has a negative impact on the court, in addition to the financial harm caused.
- stronglikedan 3y agoThat's only one count of murder. One life destroyed. SBF destroyed numerous lives, so it is a relatively light sentence by that data.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoI'm not convinced by that; I think theft in many ways deserves a greater penalty. Imagine if I rob 10,000 people of $2,000. Some people won't feel it. Others will be suicidal and may even commit suicide partially from hopelessness. There also could have ramifications that last years into the future, and cascade. (Can't buy new car to replace old car, don't have enough money now. Old car broke, missed work, got fired, found new job elsewhere that pays less...)
- marcinzm 3y ago> If anything, it's excessive if you consider the nature of the crime relative to the nature of murder or kidnapping. I suspect the resulting number of shortened lives amongst all the people who lost $8 billion worth of their money due to the fraud is more than the number caused by a single murder.
- wnevets 3y agoNever steal money from the rich.
- zemariagp 3y agoGood time to reflect on Ross Ulbright’s 2xLife sentence
- mzs 3y agoOne life sentence and that was based largely on him paying to have five people murdered.
- vuln 3y ago[flagged]
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoNot sure you should get a lighter sentence because you tried to murder someone and failed.
- rootusrootus 3y agoIn most jurisdictions, though, you do. Attempted murder does not get the same punishment that murder does. Though I agree with the premise that it should get substantially similar punishment. Successful murder should get a bit more due to the consequences.
- boomboomsubban 3y agoTwo life sentences for charges that had nothing to do with the alleged murder-for-hire. Those charges were dropped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Trial
- krisoft 3y agoThe judge can take into consideration during sentencing conduct not explicitly charged. Heck they can take into consideration things you have been acquitted over by a jury too. That is right (I'm telling you how the law is, not how it should be) A jury can decide that it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you did something and yet you can still receiver a heavier sentence for it. (as long as they don't acquit you over all charges.)
- setgree 3y agoAn uncle once commented about a cousin of ours that he demonstrated how it's possible to screw things up so badly that you can't possibly recover. I think that's true for Sam. I hope it's not true for the people in his orbit; I hope they can get out from under this and try to find meaning, ideally from repairing the harm they've done. As Rick Heicklen writes, "We are not ever going to be Sam. But we could be Caroline, or Nishad, or Natalie. Or even Michael Lewis. We could easily make the same mistakes they do." [0] [0] https://asteriskmag.com/issues/05/michael-lewis-s-blind-side https://asteriskmag.com/issues/05/michael-lewis-s-blind-side, posted previously here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39118124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39118124
- WhatIsDukkha 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- FabHK 3y agoFWIW, I didn't find Lewis's book as bad (or amoral) as it's often made out to be. Yes, he didn't put his judgement in every paragraph, but his description of SBF was: a) absolutely damning! SBF's lack of empathy, his notion that (given that everyone else is stupid) he knew best and should basically ignore the advice of everyone else (particularly his elders), his naive utilitarianism without any deontological/virtue temperance, his reckless "many-worlds" risk-neutrality in gambling - that was all described in detail in the book, even if it was not explicitly condemned. Lewis didn't bother to show why these traits are bad. (I don't know what Lewis himself thought about them, but who cares? Show, don't tell.) b) empathetic, eliciting compassion. Sure, the kid was screwed up, but here's why. And, btw, you might well have turned out the same way under similar circumstances, but for the grace of god. My conclusion: 1) Lewis's book was good and insightful, and it's unfair to describe it as an apologia. 2) SBF has severe moral deficiencies and belongs in prison for a long time, but not because he is "evil". 3) Let's have some damn humility.
- bodiekane 3y agoIt's wild that 99% of the "point" of crypto and a Bahamas-based exchange was to avoid all the laws around securities trading, banking, money transferring (anti-money laundering, taxes, etc), etc and yet when things go south, people still expect the government to come in and enforce a tiny subset of the financial laws they've otherwise been operating outside of. This is a weird form of "privatize the profits, socialize the losses" but with the benefactors being the people intentionally avoiding all the financial laws.
- sneak 3y agoYeah, I agree. This should fall under “caveat emptor”. Everyone using unregulated exchanges (which IMO should be an option for everyone) should recognize that they are subject to additional risks (and benefits). The government shouldn’t outlaw free climbing either. It’s your own fault if you treat a bunch of foolish kids with millions of dollars the same way you would an onshore FDIC-insured regulated bank. Canada Bill Jones would like a word.
- i1856511 3y agoI agree with you as well, but this is a major example of how, despite this ideal, something like this can sweep up so many people that would otherwise never interact with a system like this. People who don't know who SBF is, never heard of Hacker News, who don't understand crypto, getting convinced to put money into this by, say, a younger relative. It is a real side-effect of this thing existing on this scale on a planet populated by humans. People don't go mass free-climbing because it isn't something you do by accident. The danger is obvious. But this danger is abstract, and the ease of entering this type of system can happen with just a few clicks from the comfort of your home. And getting dollar signs in your eyes is a very psychologically influential pull.
- bronson 3y agoFree climbing in populated areas is outlawed (and should be). Try climbing your nearest skyscraper and see how it goes. Similarly, torching your money on some random shitcoin isn't outlawed. But when they enter populated areas, renaming stadiums and hiring celebrities to try to trick the masses, the rules change.
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- easyThrowaway 3y agoAm I the only one who feels like they basically got a patsy and whoever was actually running the con while he was playing LoL during meetings got away scot-free?
- sneak 3y agoI don’t think there is any crime whatsoever that imprisoning someone for more than ten years would be reasonable or productive. If jailing someone for a decade doesn’t do it, nothing will. It seems purely vindictive at some point. The justice system should not be vindictive.
- FredPret 3y agoEither the justice system is at least a little vindictive, or the survivors of the crime will become so much more vindictive
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- 11101010001100 3y agoNow we all get to play judge! 25 going once twice sold.
- maxclark 3y agoSBF is 32 years old - 25 years isn't a death sentence for him Parole is available after 1/3 of term, realistically he won't serve 100% There's still a chance for him to get something out of his life post jail
- rootusrootus 3y ago> Parole is available after 1/3 of term IIRC it's 85%. Federal prison does not have parole, but they do give some credit for good behavior, up to 15%.
- tired_star_nrg 3y agoI thought that was only in Louisiana if they pass one of their new “tough on crime” laws
- setgree 3y agoI do not expect SBF to express remorse, be a model prisoner, etc. I expect him to royally misunderstand the rules of the game, which he routinely does in formal settings. This is the same man who leaked his ex's diaries while she was testifying against him, which led to his bail being revoked https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/technology/sam-bankman-fried-jail.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/technology/sam-bankman-fr...
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago> I expect him to royally misunderstand the rules of the game What a weird take on his behavior. His parents are law professors, he had an army of lawyers working for him at the time, yet he just didn't care and did what he felt like, knowing full well the damage it would do, because that was the whole point. There is no misunderstanding, it was just indifference.
- setgree 3y agoSBF was not indifferent to going to jail... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/05/technology/sam-bankman-fried-jail-peanut-butter-vegan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/05/technology/sam-bankman-fr... https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/why-sam-bankman-fried-likely-wont-get-adderall-while-locked-up-in-brooklyn-jail/ https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/why-sam-bankman-fried-likely-w...
- gafferongames 3y ago[flagged]
- marcus_holmes 3y agoI love HN, it's one of the few places you can get reasoned conversation online. But this is one of those subjects where it gets weird. SBF was directly responsible for millions, if not billions, of direct monetary loss to identified individuals. Yet the top comments on HN are all discussing whether incarceration is retribution, spite, deterrence, or rehabilition. The USA incarcerates people for tiny financial damages at a higher rate than anywhere else in the world. $20 of theft? 5 years away, no problem. $1 billion: well we should consider what we're trying to achieve here... If the USA is going to be consistent in sentencing then just fucking kill him. Or reconsider and free the thousands of black dudes serving ridiculous sentences for minor crimes.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- brandonmenc 3y ago> $20 of theft? 5 years away Who in this day and age is going to jail for half a decade because they snuck a 20 dollar bill out of the cash register when no one was looking? There are almost always violent actions involved that are conveniently glossed over whenever someone bemoans “life in prison for stealing a loaf of bread!”
- tredre3 3y agoI've noticed the same trend. HN (as a collective) doesn't believe in punishing white-collar crimes with incarceration. I guess it hits too close to home.
- 9front 3y agoSBF was a top political donor in Washington. I expect a pardon by the end of this year.
- danpalmer 3y agoI think that would be a hugely unpopular move, for essentially no benefit (he doesn't have any more money to donate), and would be one hell of an unforced error on the part of the democratic campaign.
- politician 3y agoIt's an election year for a first term incumbent, there is no chance of a pardon.
- jes5199 3y agohe _was_ a donor. he's not likely to be a donor in the future. so why bother?
- rootusrootus 3y agoWell, he gave just as much to the other side, why would the sitting president be inclined to pardon him as some kind of favor? Especially in an election year. That would be political suicide. Won't happen. He has a much better shot if there is a new guy in the hot seat in 2025. But even then I'd say it's pretty remote.
- k8svet 3y agoI met a nice Israeli filmography couple (somewhat known in Israel, I think) in Tulum last summer. After conducting important business, they were telling me about how they were vacating on the back of a nice windfall -- they got paid upfront for an editting/production job which was unprecedented and generous. Implications of lots of money and some "image rehabilitation". They're acting a bit coy about it, and I'm feeling perfectly fine to be nosy. So they ask if I've ever heard of "S.B.F.". After my mouth fell open and I gasped for air a few times, and demanded some proof, I got to see a not-public interview of SBF. Nothing particularly juicy, but still. I'm a nerd and I love gossip. Apropos of nothing, other than the world is small, and weird; I guess.
- ipnon 3y agoI propose the Bankman-Fried number: how many people you personally know who got rekt in the crypto crash of November 2022.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y agoI had somewhere between $10k and $20k in FTX. Took it all out when CZ started tweeting
- NotYourLawyer 3y agoAre they gonna claw it back in bankruptcy?
- tim333 3y agoNah - doesn't work like that. I had about $20k deposited as USDT and will probably get it back from the receivers. It's rough on people who had bitcoin with FTX though who will only get what it was worth back then ~17k, rather than what it goes for now.
- KenArrari 3y agoWas it nas-daily? I remember even before he got arrested it seemed bizarre how much PR there was about him. Allegedly it was organic but I'm sure he was paying for a lot of it in anticipation of when he got caught. Lots of puff pieces came out after his arrest as well which also seemed bizarrely forced.
- layer8 3y agoFrom the article, SBF will likely be out in 2036, at the age of 45. There’s a good chance he’ll get himself into shenanigans again, if not already from inside prison.
- hodgesrm 3y agoOr he could end up like Michael Milken, who went to jail for securities fraud but became known as a philanthropist. As Gandalf once said to Frodo, Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. [0] [0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7374580-frodo-it-s-a-pity-bilbo-didn-t-kill-gollum-when-he https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7374580-frodo-it-s-a-pity-b...
- jonathankoren 3y agoA philanthropist with the money he stole? His entire fortune is fruit of the poisoned tree. Milken is trash. He was in the 80s, and he is trash in the 20s. No amount of philanthropy washing can erase the damage his done. Fuck that guy.
- digging 3y agoI mean, the damage is done. Let's not condemn him for at least doing good now. Would you rather he did nothing at all?
- jonathankoren 3y agoIt's whitewash.
- jerlam 3y agoMilken spent less than two years in prison, and was fined $600 million. SBF has been sentenced for 25 years, and fined $11 billion. Pretty big difference - how much money does he have left?
- neilv 3y agoThere's still a lot more 'crypto' scammers to go.
- m3kw9 3y agoCrypto doesn’t need quotes
- segasaturn 3y agoI've seen people in the cryptography space use airquotes when referring to cryptocurrency to show their contempt for what they see as a scammy riff on their very serious and important work.
- neilv 3y agoBefore the Bitcoin et al. scamming, some people said "crypto" to abbreviate terms like cryptography and cryptographic protocol. Scammer bros appropriated "crypto", and made it dirty.
- FabHK 3y agoTrue; unfortunately, that battle is lost.
- ecommerceguy 3y agoTether.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pierat 3y agoThis type of punishment is actually pretty terrible for all parties. I could easily see a different, harsher, but more fair punishment... 1. All assets are sold off to pay victims 2. Prison for a few years. 5? 3. can only work jobs where nobody reports to them (no management, C levels, etc). Also cannot make companies. 4. Cannot own more than 2 properties, one of which is his place of residence. 5. Cannot rent out any property. 6. 25% of what he makes goes into restitution for the rest of his life. 7. Investments into any wealth instrument is to be confiscated, with exception to a 401k. Basically, this person cannot be trusted with making money other than by working for someone else. This still allows him to make a life, but severely limits the similar path he used to defraud people. Sending this guy to prison for 25 years is a waste for everyone involved.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> still allows him to make a life, but severely limits the similar path he used to defraud people Do you remember the trial? The man can’t follow rules. You would be wasting the court every microsecond because Sam decides he doesn’t understand what two properties or renting technically means.
- lfkdev 3y agoTrue. But americans love to waste their tax money and put harmless (in a physical violence sense) people like him behind bars instead of doing something useful for society. In 10 years he'll be free and start the next scam with the couple of millions he's probably hiding somewhere.
- rustcleaner 3y ago10 years is a life sentence, anything more is satisfying bloodlust in voters to keep the magick trick of civilization afloat. This human impulse is why aliens don't visit. We're too barbaric to ourselves! xD
- s3r3nity 3y agoActions have consequences. Billions of dollars of fraud that took years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to prove should have a sentence that is a strong deterrent to future crime probabilities.
- rustcleaner 3y agoThe next SBF will not think about SBF even if he knows about SBF. Deterrence Theory is back-justification to make yourself feel good about the crime that is going to happen to SBF for a quarter century just like millions of others today. This isn't living in a Motel 6 like apartment working at an Amazon warehouse for 25 years never making enough to save a dime despite putting in 50+ hours on average, with no economic hope of escape (a hell by most people's standards here); this is locking him up like an animal in abysmal conditions that would never pass public scrutiny if we designed zoo enclosures as such! If we continue to run prisons the way we do in America, all sentencing needs to go through a strong base log function, and be strictly concurrent.
- s3r3nity 3y ago> Deterrence Theory is back-justification to make yourself feel good Retribution is a valid component of justice.[1] [1] Stolen from another commenter above
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> 10 years is a life sentence, anything more is satisfying bloodlust Retribution is a valid component of justice. But I’d argue, in the case of a fraudster, incapacitation is of equal concern.
- uejfiweun 3y agoLol. "My useful life is over," he says. As if there was anything useful about setting up a fraudulent exchange to steal billions of dollars so he could go play animal house with Caroline in his penthouse.
- shombaboor 3y agothis is like a lot of tech "philanthropists" they're always ABOUT to do something nice. There's nothing ever stopping them from doing some volunteer work. But first the millions must be made. It's like borrowing good will on credit that's never paid back.
- theragra 3y agoRegardless of fraud, he donated a lot of money, some to noble causes. This is useful, even of it was not his money.
- daxaxelrod 3y agoI'd be upset if my bank used my checking account to fund Alzheimer's research.
- theragra 3y agoGovernment does it all the time ;)
- brettermeier 3y agoAnd that's a good thing.
- imacomputer 3y agoSure, tell that to all the people who were bankrupted because of him.
- headsupernova 3y agoOnly to be clawed back in bankruptcy court. The donations did more harm than good because of that
- m3kw9 3y agoSBFs dream scenario: With the emergence of ASI which causes an era of super abundance and without a need for economics, everyone forgives the financial crime and SBF goes free.
- chihuahua 3y agoThen he immediately starts an even bigger scheme to destroy that super abundance, based on some crazy "effective altruism" idea that it's somehow even better for 100 billion people who may exist in the future.
- reubenspencer 3y ago[dead]
- dvektor 3y ago"Wow jeez! 'Only' ten years! That's not so bad, I think I could live with that, now I think I'm gonna go pull a huge scam! But damn, if he would have got 20 or 25 years, then I'd have to reconsider my carefully thought out decision to commit fraud" -- Nobody, Ever. To most people, just the act of losing everything you have, losing your ability to provide for your family or yourself. Losing your reputation, your career and future career opportunities, is enough to deter them. Whether a crime will give you 10 years or 20 years, most people consider that to be so long, that it's more or less all the same. It feels like an eternity, and it feels like your life is over. So if they are going to take a risk, or make a stupid decision, then they are going to do it regardless. Not because they accept the risk, but because nobody ever believes they are ever going to get caught. They consider that as "my life is over anyway". And usually, it is. That's not the point of prison. If you are ever going to let people out, why not focus on making sure they don't come back. Punishing people by throwing them in cages with worse people, absolutely does not work. (note: I am speaking mostly about non-violent crimes, which make up 72% of the federal system)
- sp332 3y agoThis was directly addressed by the judge during the sentencing, so you might be interested in finding a recording or transcript.
- haliskerbas 3y agoPrison is a way to get cheap labor, and some prisons are run by publicly traded companies. Not the best sources but you get the point. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... 2. https://www.dailyo.in/wallet/heard-of-prison-stocks-here-are-3-that-exist-on-the-us-stock-market-37108 https://www.dailyo.in/wallet/heard-of-prison-stocks-here-are...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- codedokode 3y agoTo be honest, isn't 25 years too much? He didn't beat or kill anyone, he simply found dumb people and took little of their money. It is not like he was robbing poor people by increasing their utilities bill every year or raising rent. Why is such a small, non-violent crime so severely punished? Of course he deserves a punishment but maybe not that much?
- notatoad 3y ago> small in what world is stealing ~$8bn a "small" crime?
- kstrauser 3y ago"Stole" is the word you're looking for. He stole their money. Lots of it.
- judah 3y ago> It is not like he was robbing poor people A crime is not less of a crime based on the economic status of the victims. And raising rent or utilities is not a crime.
- codedokode 3y agoBut poor people suffer much more from raised rent than rich people from losing little money on dubious cryptocurrency investments. If the punishment was based not on absolute dollar amount but on damage relative to person's total amount of money then it would be more fair.
- usefulcat 3y agoIf steal $1000 from you, how much time should I serve? A year? If I steal $1000 each from thousands of people, how much time should I serve then?
- codedokode 3y agoIf you make a scammy-looking cryptoexchange and promise I will get rich if I invest, you won't be able to steal a single cent. Only dumb people can believe that you can buy cryptocurrency and get rich without doing nothing.
- devbit 3y ago[flagged]
- mrbonner 3y agoI really don't understand the severity of criminal justice system punishment. SBF got sentenced to 25 years for a white collar financial crime while a guy in my hometown hit and killed 2 people, while DUI and ran over 100mph on a local street with 35mph limit got 26 months sentence forb2 vehicular homicide.
- survirtual 3y agoThe money he stole and defrauded is lifetimes worth. Lifetimes of economics stolen from people. Lifetimes of stresses caused on people because of what he stole. How many people may have ended their lives because they lost everything? How many silenced voices are there in pain because of his fraud? White collar criminals can and should be likened to serial killers in the severity of their crimes. They spread invisible miseries indiscriminately, near entirely without justice or recognition. I am glad one of them is finally being properly punished.
- bena 3y agoIntent has a lot to do with it. SBF operated with forethought and malice. He intended to deceive people. He was trying to commit fraud. Hometown guy did not intend to crash or kill anybody. Now the results of hometown guy's actions were more direct and severe, but had he had the choice, he would not have crashed and killed anybody. He's not a criminal, just a fucking idiot.
- Aaargh20318 3y ago> SBF operated with forethought and malice. And hometown guy accidentally got behind the wheel of a car while drunk?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y agoA well-known effect of alcohol intoxication is cognitive impairment.
- Aaargh20318 3y ago
- btbuildem 3y agoNow do all the other ponzi scheme bros, including 80% of the insider traders in Congress
- kyleblarson 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Zambyte 3y agoSeems kind of unlikely that he has much dirt on anyone with power...?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- frank_bb 3y ago[dead]
- xrd 3y agoAs other people have pointed out here, he has the possibility of getting out in 12.5 years. That means he might miss his chance to have kids. Having your first kid at 38 is old, I should know. That means, ironically, he will be prevented from self imposed financial ruin, which is to say, trying to raise children in the US, especially as someone who came from the opulence of the bay area. Can you imagine the cost of trying to keep up with the Joneses when those are your peers. It seems like a fair punishment for him would actually be to force him to have kids and have to work as a janitor in silicon valley until they graduate from community college. That would really be teaching him to experience the financial ruin he imposed on others. </sarcasm>
- duderific 3y ago> Having your first kid at 38 is old, I should know. Had my first kid at 45 and second at 49. Guess that makes me ... ancient?
- Crosseye_Jack 3y agoLess than he should have gotten, but more than I thought he would get!
- publius_0xf3 3y agoIt's funny. I lost tens of thousands of dollars thanks to this individual, yet his sentence brings me no joy or arouses any emotion at all. I'm utterly indifferent to his fate for some reason and I don't know why. Yet if he had been a mugger who stole a much smaller amount of money from me on the street, I think I would've been far more vengeful. Should I feel vindictive? Or is it healthy to forget about it and move on? I'm not sure.
- paulpauper 3y agomaybe tens of thousands of dollars was not that much relative to your net worth. some people lost it all
- ShamelessC 3y agoIt is _obviously_ healthy to forget about it and move on. Having said that, any anger at the guy is going to be not because he effected any one person, but because he effected so many - and because he embodied a particular attitude in the cryptocurrency world that lives on in so many others who haven't yet had their luck run out.
- bdcravens 3y agoPerhaps previous exit scams in the crypto space dulled your senses? If anything, I feel like you should share your story to protect others, especially during times when crypto is peaking (like now) and others are tempted to jump in: use exchanges to buy/sell and get out, store your keys on a cold storage device, and transfer out fiat ASAP.
- CivBase 3y agoSurely the better takeaway is to just not bet on crypto in general? It's supposed to act like a currency, not a stock. So long as people keep feeding into these pump-and-dump schemes they'll keep happening. Money doesn't come from nowhere. For every dollar you make on crypto, somone loses a dollar. All these BS coins do is shuffle wealth from the unlucky gamblers to the lucky ones. Go spend your money at a casino instead.
- bdcravens 3y agoI can't help but think it's ironic that he was sentenced while BTC is near its ATH.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- KingLancelot 3y ago[dead]
- MichaelRo 3y ago25 years seems excessive. Funk, for murder they get 10 years in Sweden. Yes, fraud is bad but he didn't kill nobody. I think 5 years would have had been enough.
- s_dev 3y agoThree suicides make this crime a bit more violent than you give it credit for. Not to mention absolute destruction of 00s if not 000s of lives.
- gjvc 3y agoabsolutely agree
- caturopath 3y agoYou could also think of it as 11 minutes each for defrauding each of 1.2MM people. I don't know whether either of those sentences are good ones, but there does come a point at which a narrow violent crime should be punished less than a huge non-violent one. FEMA uses about 7.5MM for a human life for certain cost-benefit analyses (much lower values are used in many of the countries where most FTX customers lived): is there a sense in which doing a billion dollars of damage is in certain ways comparable to 130 killings? Surely some people who lost money would have used that money in part to save someone's life.
- tsimionescu 3y agoFraud affects huge amounts of people, and is always premeditated. Murdering one person is much more excusable than defrauding hundreds of thousands.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sidcool 3y agoHarsh sentence. What could possibly have helped reduce it?
- sanjit 3y agoMaybe if he had taken some responsibility and demonstrated remorse? He may have felt he was too smart for this situation and could continue fooling people?
- gscott 3y agoThe moral of the story is to always accept a plea deal if there is some chance of your being seen as guilty.
- Zambyte 3y agoI think the moral of the story is to keep your fraud below the billions
- user_7832 3y agoDoes anyone know/have an idea what a plea might have netted him?
- medler 3y agoHe wasn’t offered a plea deal: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/03/sam-bankman-fried-trial-ftx-crypto https://www.axios.com/2023/10/03/sam-bankman-fried-trial-ftx...
- tdudhhu 3y agoThe difference between opinions in this thread is interesting. I think it's mainly because some see a punishment as revenge and others as correction. But, as user publius_0xf3 is showing, revenge does not work. The victims don't get their money back. If this sentence is used as correction I also think it does not work. Would such a correction really take 25 years? His life is over. I don't see how such a long time is helpful to him, to his victims and to society.
- edgyquant 3y agoIf you think it’s “revenge” then yeah, you can say it doesn’t work. In reality it is a punishment and deterrent to future victimizers.
- tracedddd 3y agoWhat do you think about it being a preventative measure against future SBFs?
- quasarj 3y agoIsn't there tons of evidence that this simply doesn't work? I mean, I don't know this SBF guy, but do you think he thought there would be no punishment if he got caught stealing 8 billion dollars? I think his plan was not to get caught.
- __loam 3y agoHe was judged before a jury of his peers and found wanting. It's not revenge, it's being held accountable for his actions. Some crimes, like murder, can't just be "corrected". The solution we've landed on as a society is for there to be a punitive cost to be paid by the responsible individual. In this case, it's jail time. SBF caused an incredible amount of irreparable harm with his actions, which almost certainly has resulted in suicides. He deserves this punishment.
- YellowZeeZee 3y agoThe sentence is neither revenge nor correction. It's simply punishment for having broken the rules. Society is not necessary interested in helping him. Ultimately he's not that important. What is important is maintaining the rule of law and preserving faith in the justice system.
- user3939382 3y agoWhen money and politics is involved at this scale I believe nothing I read and half of what I see.
- Dig1t 3y agohttps://archive.is/jwrbE https://archive.is/jwrbE
- PhilipRoman 3y agoI sincerely wish every centralized exchange had their own SBF to burn them down. The negative impact of "investors" has been terrible for crypto. They've turned what should have been a trustless medium into a caricature of traditional banking with all of its downsides and none of the benefits. Whats the point of computing all the hashes if you end up handing your coins to some guy who pinky promises to pay them back at some point in the future with interest?
- freedomben 3y agoWithout centralized exchanges, do you think crypto would ever really have become a thing? I like to think it would, and that we don't need exchanges, because I too have a strong dislike for exchanges (if not a hatred), but I'm a fairly technical user and even for me it's not exactly easy to be deep into crypto without exchanges. Particularly when it comes to exchanging dollars for coins.
- ragebol 3y agoExchanges or centralized exchanges?
- freedomben 3y agoGood point, although can an exchange really exist that is decentralized? What would that look like? Basically just a neutral broker between two individuals? That is a very interesting idea
- svachalek 3y agoA decentralized exchange is called a DEX and there are a lot of them. The biggest one is UniSwap as far as I know. They operate via the blockchain's smart contract system. Unfortunately there's no way for them to handle exchanges with offline assets and currencies so I don't think they can exist in a world without CEX.
- ragebol 3y ago
- spxneo 3y agoBeen following SBF for a long time and this quote my local rabbi told me once comes to mind: "spxneo, if you deceive people that demands to be deceived, you will be rich. if you are truthful with those people that demands to be deceived, you will become enemies. if you are truthful with people that demands truth, you will be neither friends nor enemies and poor."
- wolpoli 3y agoIf you deceive people that that demands truth, do you become rich and become enemies?
- spxneo 3y agomaybe but you wont get to keep it because the people you fooled will try their best to not let you have it which is what happened to SBF. I'm trying to point at the analogy to crypto here. everybody believed in something that wasn't but badly wanted it to be true. somebody sold them that false reality and the capital moved from people who were living in a false fictional reality to people who never left this reality.
- riversflow 3y agoThere is a huge difference between demanding something and badly wanting it.
- spxneo 3y agoyes the spelling is different.
- silent_cal 3y agoAm I misinterpreting this, or was your rabbi recommending that you deceive people?
- dj_mc_merlin 3y ago
- gigatexal 3y agoShould have got 50+ years
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- coldtea 3y ago>Judge Lewis Kaplan, just before announcing Bankman-Fried's 25-year sentence, said there was a risk "that this man will be in a position to do something very bad in the future, and it's not a trivial risk." I call bullshit. Typical punitive justice reasoning. He might had done fraud, but it's hardly a risk that he "will be in a position to do something very bad in the future".
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwawayyyyy10 3y agoMany of the comments here about the utility of punishment is very utilitarian, which is ironically fitting since we're talking of SBF. What I never see acknowledged (or believed) by more lenient people is the fact that adequate punishment (sometimes harsh is adequate) serves to send a message not only to other offenders, but maybe most importantly to non-offenders, that the justice system is worth something. "Crime doesn't pay" is to me a greater message to people who are not willing to commit crimes in the first place.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ct0 3y agoGreat opportunity to remind everyone to think of Ross today. https://freeross.org/ https://freeross.org/ He just tuned 40 yesterday.
- damontal 3y agoDidn’t he try to order hits?
- selfmodruntime 3y agoYes. Ulbrecht deserves his sentence.
- vwkd 3y agoSource? It seems there's a counter claim that he didn't. > Ross was smeared with unprosecuted, false allegations of planning murder-for-hire that never occurred, were never proven, never ruled on by a jury, and were ultimately dismissed with prejudice. https://freeross.org/case-overview/ https://freeross.org/case-overview/
- tim333 3y ago>The district court found by a preponderance of the evidence that Ulbricht did commission the murders. The evidence that Ulbricht had commissioned murders was considered by the judge in sentencing Ulbricht to life and was a factor in the Second Circuit's decision to uphold the sentence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht
- willy_k 3y agoOne Sam down, one to go
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- elephantum 3y ago[flagged]
- shagie 3y agoThat's a "who to investigate list". From a year ago - Patrick Boyle : Forbes Has a Fraud Problem! https://youtu.be/V36kSqwjaaw https://youtu.be/V36kSqwjaaw > Disgraced Frank founder Charlie Javice has joined the likes of Elizabeth Holmes and Sam Bankman-Fried on a growing list of founders to be lavished with honors by the financial news outlet Forbes – only to later face criminal fraud charges. > “The Forbes 30 Under 30 have collectively raised $5.3B in funding,” tech investor Chris Bakke tweeted on Tuesday. “The Forbes 30 Under 30 have also been arrested for frauds and scams worth over $18.5B. Incredible track record.”
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jMyles 3y agoEven when (maybe especially when) people greviously harm others for profit, prison still doesn't make sense. How is putting this person in a cage (and filling the coffers of prison profiteers) supposed to restore his victims?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rrdharan 3y agoDeterrence
- nvr219 3y agoRIP to a real one
- underlogic 3y agoWhat happened to Caroline Ellison? Did she really escape charges of billions of dollars of fraud by rolling over on SBF?
- wmf 3y agoShe pled guilty and will be sentenced at some point.
- underlogic 3y agoWe'll see how blind lady justice is then.
- fennecbutt 3y agoI expect it'll go how it always goes for "partners" in crime. No prison time.
- ironcurtain 3y ago[dead]
- meindnoch 3y agoThis is peak effective altruism!
- AlexanderTheGr8 3y agoReposting one of my comments that wasn't particularly liked when i originally submitted it but i think becomes more relevant now. ``` I find such white-collar crimes very interesting because of the math between crime and punishment. For the crime that SBF is alleged to have committed, we can reasonably expect 20 yrs (he will be out in 10-12). But if he had committed a murder, he would be in prison for life (no parole). Mathematically speaking, this implies that a life is worth more than fraud worth 8 billion dollars. We can make a very reasonable assumption that the govt can save 1 additional life using a million dollars (giving necessary treatment to drug addicts / suicidal people / etc). Out of the 8 billion dollars from SBF, government would have got at least 50 million dollars from taxes (this is a lower bound). Out of that 50 million, maybe the govt puts 10-20 million back for public good. So the govt could have saved at least 10-20 people from the money that SBF is alleged to have defrauded. Based on the above, can we say that SBF indirectly killed 10-20 people? What would be the punishment for someone who kills 10-20 people? Surely more than 20 years. This balance between the scale of crime and the severity of punishment can be very interesting. Should someone defrauding 2 billion dollars suffer twice the punishment of someone defrauding 1 billion dollars? What about 2 murders to 1 murder? What about numbers on scale that can change an economy (what SBF did)? More fundamentally, is our legal system scalable? ```
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- legendofbrando 3y agoThe point of the punishment is to tell you how much we don’t want you to do it. You get life for murder because we really don’t want people killing people. Fleecing them out of money is bad, but we can (literally) print more of it. Once someone is dead we can’t bring them back. Your analysis is flawed because you’re looking at the problem from the vantage of collective outcomes. A murderer is one person who is making a decision to take an action that can end one or many lives. You want them to weigh that heavily as an absolute cost (I will go to prison forever if caught) not some relative cost (well if I just murder a little then I’ll only get a little punishment).
- 3y ago
- BoogieWoogie123 3y ago[dead]
- BoogieWoogie123 3y ago[dead]
- slibhb 3y agoI don't understand why we need to put this guy in jail for 25 years. Similarly, Bernie Madoff, whose crimes were far worse, was sentenced to 150 years. For stealing money! Given that the risk of repeat offense is low, I just don't see the point of these sentences. I think they're mostly about notoriety. Meanwhile murderers and rapists get less time, and they're at high risk for re-offending.
- alanbernstein 3y agoI think scammers are frequently repeat offenders too.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago> Given that the risk of repeat offense is low, I just don't see the point of these sentences. Is it? Did he even admit to criminal wrong doing? The article thinks otherwise: > Judge Lewis Kaplan, just before announcing Bankman-Fried's 25-year sentence, said there was a risk "that this man will be in a position to do something very bad in the future, and it's not a trivial risk." > Bankman-Fried acknowledged his mistakes and said he was sorry for what happened to customers but "never a word of remorse for the commission of terrible crimes," Judge Kaplan said. > "He knew it was wrong," he added.
- virissimo 3y agoHis likelihood of re-offending is low because he now has a near universally bad reputation and so is much less likely to be trusted with other people's money in the first place. Whether that means he should have a shorter sentence depends on the purpose of criminal sentences. If the purpose is punishment or deterrence, re-offense probability isn't as relevant, but if it is merely to protect others while he is put away, it is the most relevant consideration.
- BWStearns 3y agoAdam Neumann _should_ have an atrocious reputation given how he treats other people's money but VCs seem happy to fund his new adventures (presumably assuming they can still make money on the way up before the bust). There would no doubt be people happy to give SBF the funds to go fleece a whole new herd of victims on the off chance he got away with it enough to make the number go up.
- datavirtue 3y agoI love harsh American justice. In some countries you can stalk, kidnap, rape, kill, and then dismember a child and get less of a sentence than SBF. I have seen terrorists conduct attacks where mass casualties and death occur, they get sentenced to five years, get "rehabilitated" and then go free and do it all again. I have heard people drone on about American prison sentences being overboard but after seeing hundreds of murder/torture/terrorist cases prosecuted all over the world, the US is the only country that gets it right. If you are a danger to society you should be removed from society according to the risk you present. There is no excuse for reoffense.
- xeornet 3y agoSorry but you’re suggesting that the USA is the only country that gets punitive justice right? Works pretty well out here in Australia, or much of Eastern Europe.
- tim333 3y agoYeah they may have got it right on SBF but they get in wrong in plenty of others. See groups of shoplifters clearing out stores in SF in full view because no one will prosecute for example. https://youtu.be/Uo-LIGTHZc8?t=36 https://youtu.be/Uo-LIGTHZc8?t=36
- sdo72 3y agoEveryone has only 1 life, imprisonment of a life is one of the ultimate forms of torturing. This basically is killing his most meaningful years away. I can only agree this form of imprisonment for murderers, rapists, ones who physically and mentally hurt people with permanent losses. Ones can argue that he mentally & physically hurt others, but we need evidence. We should have a better system to force these individuals to pay back or make up the losses. Of course, he will never be able to pay back all the losses, but at least that's a better punishment and I'm almost certain every prisoner will agree to do. They will absolutely trade all of their finances for x years in exchange for freedom.
- ezfe 3y agoThis type of imprisonment is just as much to scare other people as it is to punish him. Repaying the people he stole from is also required here, but that has no meaning as a deterrent.
- ALittleLight 3y agoPersonally, I think we should offer prisoners corporal punishment alternatives. Flogging every six months for ten years, plus fines, plus community service, plus you can't handle investors money or be in the c-suite or start a company, and you pay double taxes seems fair to me.
- mpalmer 3y agoWithout the swift promise of decades in prison, what prevents the "next SBF" from committing similar crimes and causing similar damage? > Everyone has only 1 life Doesn't that make imprisonment (the ultimate time penalty) one of the fairest, most equitable punishments there is? > We should have a better system to force these individuals to pay back or make up the losses. As you say, he'll never be able to pay it back. The state can't force him to pursue high-paying work, and he goes unpunished in the meantime?
- efitz 3y agoThe article is followed at this moment with an article titled “SBF’s Parents are Heartbroken” with a picture of his parents where both are unhappy, outside in the rain under umbrellas. I wonder if they considered their role? I haven’t seen anyone accuse SBF of being a psychopath; given that, how does a person become so ethically bankrupt? A: His parents failed to do their job of ensuring that he developed a conscience. SBF’s actions are his own; but he would never have gotten to where he ended up if they had done their job.
- olalonde 3y agoNot only that but his parents were actively involved in FTX and profited greatly from it[0]. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/digital-assets/2023/09/24/sam-bankman-frieds-parents-seem-much-more-involved-in-the-ftx-collapse-than-previously-known/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/digital-assets/2023/09/24/sam-b...
- tim333 3y agoYeah: >The suit says that SBF’s father directed where company payments would go, picked out charities to benefit from his son’s largesse, entered into and terminated contracts, hand-picked the company’s outside counsel, made hiring recommendations, and authorized expenses. >SBF’s mother, used ill-gotten funds from her son’s businesses as a piggy bank for her political action committee. >The suit says that Bankman, SBF’s father, was at one point drawing a $200,000 annual salary from FTX but that he thought he was “supposed to” be getting a nice, round $1 million. He emailed his son, according to the suit, “Gee, Sam I don’t know what to say here. This is the first [I] have heard of the 200K a year salary! Putting Barbara on this,” he added, calling in the boss’s mother. The suit says that shortly thereafter, Bankman-Fried made a $10 million gift to his parents out of funds from Alameda Research (FTX’s sister hedge fund), then had the couple put on the deed to a $16.4 million Bahamas property with funds “ultimately provided” by FTX.
- Intralexical 3y agoSam Bankman-Fried is not a child. https://www.citationneeded.news/sam-bankman-fried-is-not-a-child/ https://www.citationneeded.news/sam-bankman-fried-is-not-a-c...
- AI_beffr 3y agoprison is such an interesting concept. violent people need to be physically separated for the safety of the population. but for a crime like this maybe it would be better to just give him 5-10 years in prison but never let him deal in finance again. i would rather have him on a road crew tying re-bar than using up tax payer money in prison...
- cush 3y agoOr turn him white-hat and have SBF work for the SEC, using his skills to find other fraudsters
- henry2023 3y agoYou’re assuming he has skills. He had connections that’s all. You can tell by every single action he took during his trial
- manquer 3y agoPrison is also a deterrent for future offenders, if everyone is knows/feels all they will loose is their license to practice finance then you will have lot more financial crime than there is.
- nathansherburn 3y agoIs there any evidence this actually works? My understanding was that "prison as a deterrence" was largely ineffective.
- latentcall 3y agoMurder will land you in prison and people are still out murdering all the time so I think not.
- asjfkdlf 3y agoTo be a deterrent, it just needs to curb some percentage of behavior. Not stop it completely. Do you think people are murdering at the same rate as if there was no punishment? It could be, but I would bet the numbers would go up significantly.
- smoovb 3y agoExcessive. It's not hard to take away his ability to do harm again, he is not a threat to society. In fact, put him to work righting all his wrongs. This judge and sentence a waste of taxpayer money.
- donohoe 3y agoHere is a quote from Dept. of Justice "Four major goals are usually attributed to the sentencing process: retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence, and incapacitation. Retribution refers to just deserts: people who break the law deserve to be punished. The other three goals are utilitarian, emphasizing methods to protect the public." Given the scale of fraud, the money involved, and the nature of SBF at trail, I would disagree. https://www.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh241/files/archives/ncjrs/189106-2.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh241/files/archives/n...
- switch007 3y agoIs the US similar to the UK where he will very unlikely serve anything like 25 years in prison?
- pavon 3y agoIt's hard to say. Historically federal convictions were very strict, requiring you to serve at least 85% of your sentence. The First Step Act passed in 2018 significantly relaxed that down to 50% for non-violent crimes[1]. I don't know if there is enough data yet to determine how common or easy it will be for convicts get their sentenced reduced by that much. [1]Specifically for crimes not included in this long list: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3632#d_4_D https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3632#d_4_D
- freejazz 3y agoGood, put his parents in jail next.
- nukeyoular 3y ago[dead]
- EvaAntonio 3y ago[dead]
- reso 3y agoSam is a crook, no doubt, but even now I find him a funny figure. His trial defence was awful. He sincerely believes he was trying to do the right thing, so spent his time on the stand defending his actions at length, instead of keeping his mouth shut except to express contrition. This probably cost him years of freedom. It's strange to say but there's an... authenticity to this that I find endearing.
- RayVR 3y agoThere are the stories he tells about himself, his intentions, and his beliefs. Then, there are the cold hard facts. Even if you wanted to believe his statements, they do not align at all with his actions.
- ur-whale 3y ago> that I find endearing. SBF is an archetypical pathological liar combined with an ego the size of the empire state building. He's gotten away his entire life lying for a living all the while looking down on people around him for being his supposed intellectual inferiors. He's gotten so used to operating in that regime that he couldn't stop doing it even when in court, not realizing he was fighting for his life. The only thing that's "endearing" about a person like this is that he probably belongs in some sort of psychological re-education program.
- reso 3y agoSilicon Valley culture encourages lying and some of its leaders are the biggest liars. I am more willing to believe that SBF is an earnest product of this culture who got in over his head and caused damage, than that he is some kind of medical outlier.
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y agoIf you think there's an authenticity to him, you're the kind of person he would successfully scam.
- la64710 3y agoBitcoin is and will be a scam
- henry2023 3y agoNow available as an ETF in your favorite brokerage account
- la64710 3y agoSo are ETFs for the casino industry. Doesn’t mean slot machines are ATMs.
- Zuiii 3y agoBitcoin is and will always be real currency as long as enough people believe it is valuable (i.e. can be used to transfer value), regardless of how much it upsets hn user la64710. Bitcoin is here to stay.
- DuskHorizon 3y ago[dead]
- la64710 3y agoBitcoin is and will be a digital scam
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y agoVictim Impact Statements: https://ia801508.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.590940/gov.uscourts.nysd.590940.421.1.pdf https://ia801508.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5...
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y agohttps://ia801508.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.590940/gov.uscourts.nysd.590940.419.1.pdf https://ia801508.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... https://ia801508.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.590940/gov.uscourts.nysd.590940.419.2.pdf https://ia801508.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5...
- arctac 3y agoWill be out in 12
- cosmin800 3y agoHe is going to be suicided in prison.
- rldjbpin 3y agothe prosecuters might find this a win but from the comments it seems that there is next to no permutations where the general public would've been content. meanwhile we are seeing "institutionalization" of crypto-related securities to displace the disrupters from the tech space.
- openmindapp 3y agonice
- ttymck 3y agohttps://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780195396607/obo-9780195396607-0291.xml https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-97... > "No senior Wall Street executives were imprisoned for actions that contributed to the global financial crisis."
- nuancebydefault 3y agoI haven't lost any money because of this guy's doing but I feel it is the right thing that this person is punished severely. You can say maybe, the people investing in crypto have been 'playing' with money and knew there was risk involved, but stealing is still stealing and governments/juridical systems indeed need to prove that this cannot be tolerated.
- nikolay 3y agoI sincerely hope more crypto crooks end up in prison as well! I can't stand the noise around crypto. It's a Rube Goldberg machine presented as the next big thing when it's nothing but a magnet for greedy speculators and nothing more.
- figassis 3y ago> US Attorney Williams: SBF's sentence is a warning to others Why do they alway say that enforcing the law is a warning? Why isn't it a known fact that if you break these rules you go to prison. Is it that sometimes they let you off the hook and now they're taking the law more seriously?
- hackburg 3y ago[dead]
- 1290cc 3y agoSBF was a bright kid that was further enabled by his parents and the environment he grew up in. Imagine taking peoples life savings and being on speed while arbitraging exchanges? Thats some real hubris to not reflect that you might make a mistake at some point. The intellectual arrogance further indicts his parents who likely cheered him on.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago[dead]
- melisssa08 3y ago[dead]