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Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers
- ironcurtain 3y agoA billionaire with surveillance tech manufacturing, French ex-military spook, and a wealthy Pakistani with British government connections. Possible foul play? Nope, not a chance. Everyone’s taking about a joystick.
- crossroadsguy 3y agoWell, I would have believed in even a speck of conspiracy here (I love them unconditionally) but you know all of them entered that tiny thing on their own just like that. So unless they had nowhere to run and they rather decided to go and hide in the depths of ocean - there is nothing else. It's sad but there is no conspiracy here. Nope.
- murrayn 3y ago[flagged]
- ajross 3y ago"Only woke hulls implode" is quite a take to find at the very top of the HN page on the news event. Can we please not? Please?
- xwdv 3y agoNobody said anything about woke. This is about the dangers of hiring cheap, freshly graduated attractive looking engineers because you don’t want to hire the ugly looking and expensive professionals.
- Jibbedeyeah 3y agoIf it’s hiring whites that you’re fightin—you should sleep with King Triton.
- throwaway202351 3y agoYou're blaming this on the CEO ... hiring women?
- gcgfromhell 3y agohow so? Nope, never intended to do such a thing. Can I ask what gave you that idea? Asking unironically
- stef25 3y agoAnyone know what happens to the body when suddenly exposed to a biblical amount of pressure? I'm morbidly curious about what state the bodies would be in.
- FartyMcFarter 3y agoWith the pressures involved, nothing that remains could be identified as a human body. Everything within the ship got rapidly squished and disintegrated.
- shagie 3y agoInsanely high pressures resulting in insanely high temperatures, instant incineration, followed by a supersonic wall of water smashing everything happening in a small number of milliseconds - faster than anything the mind could perceive.
- enachtry 3y agoI'm not a mechanical engineer but I imagine there's not much recognizable left out of their bodies. The carbon fiber hull is said to have failed catastrophically in an instant shattering to pieces. Water hammered in from all sides with ~400 kg of force applied on every square cm of their bodies + extreme shearing effects. This means they were turned into organic goo in an instant as if passed through a blender. I don't think there's much left of them except for small pieces of bones with a little organic tissue barely hanging on.
- an-allen 3y agoMythbusters Pig Diving Suit pretty much explains what happens. Its gross.
- activiation 3y agoI'm surprised millionaires/billionaires didn't do better research on that company before going on the trip
- MichaelMoser123 3y agoLife is unpredictable. One day you are a billionaire who is eating lobsters, the other day the lobsters are eating you...
- snek_case 3y agoI'm looking at this and wondering why anyone would risk their life for an extremely dangerous trip in a cramped underwater vessel with no toilet when you could just... send a drone.
- somedangedname 3y agoA former US Navy submariner recently released a video about the Titan and the issues he could see with its design: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4dka29FSZac https://youtube.com/watch?v=4dka29FSZac
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cma 3y agoHe seems unaware that they made several trips to the Titanic in the sub already.
- az226 3y agoCarbon fiber would get worn down very rapidly compared to steel.
- cma 3y agoI'm not saying that to say the sub was good. I think the guy's conclusions are probably right but he seems to just be roughly catching up on things at the last minute and missing lots of important info, so not a good source on it.
- gcgfromhell 3y ago[dead]
- sillyinseattle 3y agoWSJ.com is now reporting that a top secret US navy system did detect the implosion - on site commander was informed.
- carbine 3y agoLots of talk about carbon fiber, ofc. But also seems relevant that that this seems to be one of the only (or truly the only?) deep sea submersibles with a non-spherical personnel chamber.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jameslk 3y agoTragic result, just as it were for the Titanic. The parallels between the hubris of what was said about each craft's capabilities, to the outcomes of blindly believing in it, down to even the irony in the names "Titanic" and "Titan" seems sadly poetic. Rest in peace.
- MichaelMoser123 3y agoThe sinking of the Titanic and World War 1 are often mentioned in context, as marking the end of the long peace in Europe. I hope the sinking of the Titan won't mark something like World War 3 ...
- JennaDawn20 3y agoDoes anyone know if they had any “deep-sea” or “submersible” cameras recording the expedition and can recover those cameras/footage to help in knowing what happened?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- MuffinFlavored 3y agoWill the company be sued or did the riders (customers) sign a waiver? what will the insurance payout look like? will there be one to the victims?
- TheBigSalad 3y agoThey were all wealthy anyway.
- shawabawa3 3y agoThey all signed waivers that said it was a dangerous experimental craft and death was possible
- lgats 3y agoIn the realm of the sea where no light dares to tread, An iron giant named Titan its journey had led, Built to traverse the blue deep, a mission clear, To explore the Titanic's ghost, obscured by fear. Titan, oh Titan, the sea's most stalwart knight, Bathed in cold silence, yearning for daylight, A sub of sturdy steel and human determination, Set forth to reveal the past's doomed creation. A journey steeped in echoes, through waters unknown, Into the abyss, where sun's grace is never shown. Titan searched for the Titanic, a ghost in the haze, Through the endless night, in a chilling ballet's craze. Beneath the waves, where pressure sways like the titan's fist, Where the sea's lament whispers a chilling tryst, The skeletal Titanic sleeps, in a shroud of mystery, A timeless tale of man's hubris and history. Titan neared its quest's end, the Titanic in sight, A monolith of memory, veiled in the eternal night. But the sea's cruel clasp tightened, a relentless grip, As the ghost ship waited in stoic fellowship. A sound then shattered the silence, a mournful sigh, Titan under the pressure, its limits defy. Its hull creaked, it shivered, it began to groan, And in the darkness, Titan was suddenly alone. In its quest for discovery, to the abyss, it fell, Imploded in silence, no one to bid farewell. Titan and Titanic, now silent together, A testament to humanity's reach and tether. Two steel giants resting deep below the foam, Far from the surface light, far from home. The Titan's tale echoes through the seafarer's lore, A lesson from the deep, from the ocean floor. A tale of two Titans, of steel and cold precision, Both met their end in a haunting collision. Under the crushing sea, they found their tomb, In the silent world, where no roses bloom. Their names will echo, in the salt-tinged spray, Titan and Titanic, forever bound in a tragic ballet. A dance in the deep, where light has no reign, In the realm of the sea, where triumph and tragedy reign.
- afavour 3y ago> But the sea's cruel clasp tightened I appreciate the imagery but you’re in danger of over romanticising the reality: the sea wasn’t cruel. It is nature. The reason this happened, much like with the Titanic, was human hubris.
- artdigital 3y agoThis is incredibly sad to hear. I’ve been following this closely and had my hopes up after noises were detected in 30 min intervals, which matches emergency procedure to alert rescue teams. Even got me to watch the documentary on BBC about it, and now I’m even more sad. But also confused why we learn only now that the US Navy already detected an anomaly that’s matching an implosion
- mulmen 3y agoThe most troubling thing about this to me is Stockton Rush’s cavalier attitude toward ageism [1]. In considering young college graduates as uniquely “inspirational” he set them up for a lifetime of guilt. I don’t think age or race has any place in inspirational calculus. I’m uncomfortable with how comfortably he dismisses submariner veterans as “old white guys”. Engineering is a discipline that requires experience and guidance. The young learn from the old. In this case accomplished engineers missed a chance to do rewarding work with young engineers and young engineers have to live with the guilt of killing their crew. This is a lesson the entire tech industry would do well to meditate on. Especially when we call ourselves engineers. [1]: https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac&t=5m2s https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac&t=5m2s
- whatscooking 3y agoMost old engineers I’ve worked with are terrible and many younger ones are way more talented.
- Swinx43 3y agoYour troll craft is somewhat lacking
- housemusicfan 3y agoThis is the attitude you need to give birth to truly innovative ideas like a Bluetooth controller attached to the desktop PC that controlled his hunk of shit submarine that killed everyone on board. He proudly describes it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc
- mulmen 3y agoDoes he ever explain why carbon fiber and bluetooth were improvements over working technology?
- Hamuko 3y agoI remember seeing a claim that the Bluetooth part was a feature since you could just "pass the controller" inside the cabin but I haven't been able to find a source for it. As for the carbon fibre: >OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush says the company had been evaluating the potential of using a carbon fiber composite hull since 2010, primarily because it permits creation of a pressure vessel that is naturally buoyant and, therefore, would enable OceanGate to forgo the use — and the significant expense — of syntactic foam on its exterior. So, for Cyclops 2 OceanGate decided to avoid the metallic hull altogether and began a search for a manufacturer that could help it develop a composite hull. https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersibles-under-pressure-in-deep-deep-waters https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersib...
- foreverobama 3y ago[dead]
- firecall 3y agoI was reading the article, and it talked about if the bodies could be located and recovered. Which made me wonder: What actually happens in an implosion like this? Does the whole sub squash down, like stomping on a tin can? (Apologies for the graphic metaphor) Does buckle in the middle, tear open and flood? I heard it would be instant, which is a mercy for them.
- providenteco 3y ago[dead]
- nakedneuron 3y agoI can't help but thinking about how tempting it must be for a person who is willing to end their life to perish in an blink of an eye (Germanwings Flight 9525 comes to mind). I also wonder if it was the ideal place for Mr.Titanic to rest his bones. He surely was used to having a small gun on his numerous subsea expeditions in order to avoid a miserable end in case of being trapped. Maybe that was indeed the perfect plan after an adventurous life like his certainly was. Not wanting to come off as impious. However, I know I am.. Also some inspirational title... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wreck_of_the_Titan:_Or,_Futility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wreck_of_the_Titan:_Or,_Fu... His wife died some years ago.
- gcgfromhell 3y agoScott Manley had some things to say on this matter that were not revolting, trite or giving nauseating tech-bro vibes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz9vcSFBqw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz9vcSFBqw
- ClassicOrgin 3y agoBased on this it seems pretty likely that it immediately imploded and the ‘banging’ was from the Titanic debris itself.
- quasse 3y agoThe banging was likely the sound of hundreds of news organizations flogging this story to get more clicks.
- dehrmann 3y agoAt least the story is more compelling than the Chinese spy balloon.
- can16358p 3y agoNope; banging was officially announced in the press conference of the search and rescue team. Though they could not confirm that it was really the sub (they probably thought that it was, but they can't officially say it).
- 50 3y agocompared to the little coverage of the vessel carrying hundreds of migrants which capsized and sank in the mediterranean, and, by factor of sitting, watching, and waiting without intervening, were killed by the eu and greek coast guard
- ak_111 3y ago
- danso 3y agoI wonder if U.S. agencies (e.g. the Navy) had picked up the sound of the implosion days ago, back when the Titan was said to have lost communication, and knew all this time that the Titan had likely already been destroyed. But there's no incentive for them to publicly say anything, as it would hint to their underwater surveillance capabilities. And the "rescue effort" is good practice for their crews. I watched most of the press conferences and don't think I heard anyone ask about it. But hearing loud noises across thousands of miles is certainly within the U.S. military's capability.
- danso 3y agoFrom the WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12?mod=e2tw https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-imp... https://archive.is/pSpem https://archive.is/pSpem U.S. Navy Detected Titan Sub Implosion Days Ago Underwater microphones designed to detect enemy submarines first detected Titan tragedy WASHINGTON—A top secret U.S. Navy acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines first heard the Titan sub implosion hours after the submersible began its mission, officials involved in the search said. The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after its disappearance, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the commander on site, U.S. defense officials said. “The U.S. Navy conducted an analysis of acoustic data and detected an anomaly consistent with an implosion or explosion in the general vicinity of where the Titan submersible was operating when communications were lost,” a senior U.S. Navy official told The Wall Street Journal in a statement. “While not definitive, this information was immediately shared with the Incident Commander to assist with the ongoing search and rescue mission.”
- treyfitty 3y agoThis was quite prescient of you. At first (hours before they confirmed the debris was from the sub), I thought your comment was a stretch, but still plausible- yet impossible to prove. All too often, we dismiss these conspiratorial hypotheses, but now that the WSJ all but confirms your suspicions, I’m scared to find out what other inconvenient truths there are to life
- mrabcx 3y agoProbably better to go away in an instant rather than sitting and waiting for the inevitable to happen.
- xvector 3y agoIn an interview with James Cameron, he mentions[1] that he and other submersible industry experts believe that they did in fact have warning, as they had dropped the weights (which were found far away from the debris field) and were attempting to resurface before the implosion: [1]: "This Oceangate sub had sensors on the inside of the hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack [...] they probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate. [...] It's our belief - as we understand from inside the community - that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up trying to manage an emergency." https://youtu.be/rThZLhNF_xg?t=472 https://youtu.be/rThZLhNF_xg?t=472
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoOr succumbing to paranoia that others might murder you to survive themselves.
- buggythebug 3y agoya but if they murder someone, the victim will decompose - prob not good to breathe that stuff in.
- sho_hn 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_risks_from_dead_bodies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_risks_from_dead_bodies
- Hamuko 3y agoIn an instant unless OceanGate's patented monitoring system actually worked. If it did work, they would've had at least a couple of seconds to panic. >Rush planned to pilot the sub himself, which critics said was an unnecessary risk: Under pressure, the experimental carbon fiber hull might, in the jargon of the sub world, “collapse catastrophically.” So OceanGate developed a new acoustic monitoring system, which can detect “crackling,” or, as Rush puts it, “the sound of micro-buckling way before it fails.” https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/077665859/publication/US11119071B1?q=pn%3DUS11119071B1 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0776658... I don't suppose there is a huge line to license this technology.
- psychphysic 3y agoRIP to these guys, yes it was a risky trip. But it was into international waters and they were AFAIC explorers. Stuff like this can not be done without risk. Hopefully future subs will have more safety features.
- bandrami 3y agoThis wasn't boldly going where nobody has gone before. Getting that deep safely has been a solved problem for decades.
- psychphysic 3y agoI agree but not at 250k a head. It should be safer, but everything is done to a price point and I'm sure those on board recognised the risk of such an expedition.
- danso 3y agoI seriously doubt the victims knew how risky this trip was, even though they signed the waivers. Why would you bring along your 19-year-old son if you thought the chance of death was 1/100 or even 1/1000. The CEO, who obviously overestimated the safety of his cost-cutting design, had raised $20M in venture capital, it's not as if he had a death wish either.
- jacquesm 3y ago> Why would you bring along your 19-year-old son if you thought the chance of death was 1/100 or even 1/1000. Optimist.
- danso 3y agoMike Reiss took the sub trip to the Titanic in the summer of 2022, and in his podcast he says his wife didn't go with him because she failed a Covid test right before. It's unclear whether it was her decision or OceanGate's decision to play it safe. Reiss notes that during Covid, his wife had traveled to every continent without catching it until now, so she wasn't extremely paranoid. If OceanGate denied her, then it means they were worried more about the health risk of Covid in late 2022 than having to (partially) refund her $250k ticket. I don't think Covid is by any means "just the flu", but I definitely think the risk of dying from it is significantly less than a visit to the Titanic. https://twitter.com/MikeReissWriter/status/1545092529971818498 https://twitter.com/MikeReissWriter/status/15450925299718184... https://bleav.com/shows/what-am-i-doing-here-with-mike-reiss/episodes/episode-40-the-titanic/ https://bleav.com/shows/what-am-i-doing-here-with-mike-reiss...
- mikeyouse 3y agoIt's not clear from the headline - but the debris field is on the ocean floor and was found via the USGC's remote operated submersible vehicle.
- ewoodrich 3y agoYes on the sea floor but according to BBC: > Debris patch was found by an ROV from the Horizon Arctic, a Canadian commercial vessel which arrived last night near the Titanic wreckage site. > It was loaded with support equipment and was also carrying an Odysseus 6k ROV that can reach depths of 6,000m. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link&at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_id=80D57CB4-1122-11EE-BEE3-D26CAD7C7D13&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_origin=BBCBreaking&at_ptr_name=twitter https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?at_bb...
- mikeyouse 3y agoYep, fair point - found not by not the USCG itself but by the Canadian merchant vessel assisting in the search.
- dang 3y agoThanks - maybe we'll switch to that URL since it has more up-to-date information. (Submitted URL was https://twitter.com/USCGNortheast/status/1671907901542211584 https://twitter.com/USCGNortheast/status/1671907901542211584)
- venusenvy47 3y agoFrom the article it seems like this ROV doesn't have sonar, and can only search visually at a short distance. They claim a distance of around 20 feet. I'm surprised they could find a debris field so fast with such a small range of observation.
- mikeyouse 3y agoTurns out that the debris field was only a few hundred meters from the bow of the Titanic which is approximately where they lost contact in the water column, so I suspect their search consisted of diving to the last known location of the Titan and then just going to the sea floor from there.
- bambax 3y agoIf it did implode in multiple pieces it means the experts were right; many said that carbon fiber was a poor choice because while it's light, it breaks like glass, contrary to steel which tends to "open" slowly.
- typeofhuman 3y agoIt's a shame they openly did not hire SMEs.
- kyleblarson 3y agoThis quote shines light on his hiring philosophy: “When I started the business, one of the things you’ll find, there are other sub-operators out there, but they typically have, uh, gentlemen who are ex-military submariners, and they — you’ll see a whole bunch of 50-year-old white guys,” Rush told Teledyne Marine in a resurfaced interview. “I wanted our team to be younger, to be inspirational and I’m not going to inspire a 16-year-old to go pursue marine technology, but a 25-year-old, uh, you know, who’s a sub pilot or a platform operator or one of our techs can be inspirational,” said Rush.
- kyleblarson 3y agoUpon rereading the quote I noticed the use of "in a resurfaced interview". I wonder if that was an intentional jab.
- bambax 3y agoIt's doubtful he'll still inspire anyone where he's now.
- PUSH_AX 3y agoWhat on Earth did I just read? It sounds like startup nonsense applied to a super high stakes domain. Foolishness.
- ChuckNorris89 3y agoAh, I see he's got the 'Elon Musk school of thought' in regards to cutting corners in vehicles carrying people's lives and seeing safety regulations as a nuisance hindering his "visionary progress" that these pesky gray-beard engineers just can't grasp. Fucking idiot CEO, took 4 innocent people with him. Aero, naval, automotive, all have a a history written in blood, and all those rules and regulations aren't to hinder innovation but to save lives based on what we've learned from all the people who lost their lives in the past.
- lamontcg 3y agoWell that's better than slowly asphyxiating or dying of hypothermia, probably didn't even know what hit them.
- m3kw9 3y agoI’d they surfaced they cook under the sun
- xwdv 3y agoIt’s definitely better for them, but its infuriating that this CEO died thinking he was a genius for building this shitty sub with very few safety precautions.
- soperj 3y agoAt least he died doing it and not someone he employed.
- arthurcolle 3y agoWell his actions lead to several other people dying too. Maybe the ticket they bought has a contract that exempts OceanGate (tragic name for a company going through their own #OceanGate a la Watergate) from any liability, but I hope this company gets annihilated in court with criminal and civil penalties. Slacking this hard on safety for a submarine engineering company should not be tolerated in our rapidly advancing industrial society.
- jprd 3y agoThe other day, the Hellenic Coast Guard idled nearby while hundreds of people suffered and then drowned. I hope at least these souls died instantaneously from an implosion when Comms first dropped.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoThis story is weird to me Considering the current geopolitical weather and the presence of Russian submarines, you'd think the US army would be able to locate the missing object in no time, even with a triangulated location, they failed Worrying times
- MallocVoidstar 3y agoMilitary submarines don't go this deep.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoAre you sure about that? https://www.livescience.com/chinese-submarine-record-dive.html https://www.livescience.com/chinese-submarine-record-dive.ht...
- MallocVoidstar 3y agoThat is a submersible. Military submarines (things that can travel thousands of miles, support themselves, have weapons, etc) appear to bottom out at ~2000m. At least one US military sub imploded well above 2000m.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoLet's live blind then!
- Wojtkie 3y ago[dead]
- bhouston 3y agoSubs I believe do not operate at those depths or anywhere close.
- xoxxala 3y agoI doubt the US Army has many options for locating DSVs.
- tivert 3y agoWhy has this sub been so hard to find? I keep seeing reports that they've search an area "the size of" Massachusetts or Connecticut. Shouldn't OceanGate have recorded the exact coordinates where it was released and then been able to localize its possible location to a small area around that by modeling ocean currents or something? My understanding the Titan was designed to sink to the bottom and could only move very slowly under its own power. I know OceanGate was cocky and cut a lot of corners, but I just can't believe they wouldn't have the exact release location recorded somewhere, even if it was just an automatic track log on their ship's GPS navigation system.
- eigenspace 3y ago> Shouldn't OceanGate have recorded the exact coordinates where it was released and then been able to localize its possible location to a small area around that by modeling ocean currents or something? Modelling and knowing surface currents is one thing, but this submersible was thousands of meters deep. Deep ocean currents can be very fast, change often, and we have way less data on them.
- anigbrowl 3y ago'Telemetry? who needs it' - Oceangate, probably
- BurningFrog 3y agoThere is no way to transmit telemetry to the surface anyway.
- tivert 3y agohttps://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6494841bf2e5745fd8a78300%26%27Landing%20frame%20and%20a%20rear%20cover%20from%20the%20submersible%27%20among%20the%20debris%262023-06-22T17%3A25%3A47.784Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:bdcc76ef-88b0-4781-ac13-4a44dec7419b&pinned_post_asset_id=6494841bf2e5745fd8a78300&pinned_post_type=share https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mc...: > We have just had an update from dive expert David Mearns, who says the debris includes "a landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible". > Mearns is a friend of passengers aboard the Titan. > Mearns has told the BBC that the president of the Explorers Club (which is connected to the diving and rescue community), provided this new information.
- uejfiweun 3y agoOof. Well, that's the end of this. At least this means they had a quick death. I read that a submarine implosion would actually happen faster than your brain would be able to register that anything is even happening.
- dang 3y agoThanks - maybe we'll switch to that URL since it has more up-to-date information. (Submitted URL was https://twitter.com/USCGNortheast/status/1671907901542211584 https://twitter.com/USCGNortheast/status/1671907901542211584)
- aurizon 3y agoThe most likely first failure is the window. At that instant a rapid turbulent fill event would occur. The outside pressure and the hole diameter will provide a calculable interval for the internal volume to fill. At 12,000 feet = 800 atmospheres, this would be on the order of 1/20th of a second, with intense crush/shear forces = instant death as perceived. That interval can be related to the speed of sound and wavelength to make a variable frequency 'chirp' that would be of low to higher frequency. The low frequency would be in the low hertz as an estimate. At the same time inner pressure and temperature would rise to 800 atmospheres and a temperature a little above ambient. The density of water is around 800 times that of air = 800 times the weight of water would enter compared to the weight of the air within. Local temperature would prevail, increased a little by the work of compression of that air to higher pressure(quite high in concept, but quenched by 800 x mass of water. Thus the sound will not be very loud or high in frequency. A sphere of C4 will make a compression wave at somewhere over 500,000 atmosphere propagating at about 4000 meters/second = fourier square wave containing all the odd order harmonics all the way down = heard round the world. Any transient inrush plasma would be swamped and mixed with cold water = transient and of little consequence. Banging? One would hope nobody would dare bang the window, but it is conceivable they might have banged the hull in desperation if the window did not crack to attract attention? Did the noise cease at some point? or is the noise still hearable = not them?
- kubectl_h 3y agoThis is a very interesting comment. You seem to have a firm grasp on the physics of this situation. Out of curiosity, beyond common sense, does adding pressure internally on something with a significant load of external pressure create a compounding/exponential amount of force/pressure on the material overall?
- aurizon 3y agoYou may have heard 'nature abhors a vacuum' stated. Most solid materials are almost incompressible, either in solid or liquid form. solid steel, liquid oil, etc only gets smaller when subjected to enormous pressure. To make it smaller you need to reduce the interatomic distances that are dominated by the electromagnetic force. Gasses on the other hand are compressible and a gas volume will steadily get smaller as you squeeze it. At a high enough pressure you can create a liquid or solid that is then not compressible. All gasses can be charted in a 'phase diagram' that shows the pressure/density relationship. Some gasses do not solidify or liquify - a whole complex area here. This submersible was a vacuum into which air was added to ~~15 pounds per square inch. It was then surrounded by a wall to keep that gas in. In a normal room - all you need is a balloon, blow up with your lungs. Down at 12,000 feet underwater = 400 Atmospheres of pressure or ~~6,000 psi. One can think of this as a wall, with you on one side holding it from falling over with your hands at 15 pounds per square inch(psi) and on the other side is this gorilla at 6000 psi = gorilla wins. Now a thick walled sphere with you inside at 15 psi and the gorilla outside at 6000 psi is the new balloon. A sphere good at beating gorillas, and most deep sea spheres(called bathyspheres) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathysphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathysphere William Beebe went down a few thousand feet in the 1930's - limited by steel cable weight/depth limits as steel cable are only good for about 6000 feet as free hanging cables. Now they use incompressible buoyant solids or liquids to make them neutrally buoyant. His globe in the Wiki has some windows for vision and lights made with thick gasketed quartz - all 100% tested - still risky. They sent it down empty first. some images https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA924CA924&sxsrf=APwXEdcAXaTp18GoaEnKxMpDG0egVKdn9Q:1687483317217&q=bathysphere&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsnL-dndj_AhVWlIkEHTB7DeoQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=735&bih=390&dpr=2.29 https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA924CA924&sxsrf... Getting to your question via this preamble. The bathyscaphe could be pressurised with a helium/oxygen/other gas. The US navy has done many experiments with various gas mixtures - none are good to 6000 psi due to physiological limits. Dissolved oxygen and nitrogen are toxic above certain pressures - look at the Navy stuff for more on that via google. They are between 1000 to 2000 feet more or less - far below 6000 feet and it can take weeks to get the excess gas out of your system via gradual decompression chambers. There have been experiments with inert freon liquids with dissolved oxygen, tested on mice = lived and some Navy experiments with people who breathed the fluid under close medical control - I doubt this has progressed far, as this wiki shows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing. So yes, you can make the sphere thinner if you add pressure to the inside. Fish do it, with nothing, but often die unless they are sirfaced under controlled conditions as chemistry varies slightly as they come up, dissolved gasses fizz etc. This probably failed via the inadequate window = broke = near instant death for all. However, it may have a carbon shell failure?? if they recover the parts more will be known how the failure occurred.
- jrs235 3y agoComplete speculation: They wanted to see something very very upclose through the glass. While getting in close they managed to scrap some wreckage compromising the carbon fiber body leading it to break and implode. The banging noises are some of the equipment dangling on the Titanic wreckage and blowing in underwater currents occassionally.
- kzrdude 3y agoThey lost contact about 1¾ hours into the voyage, while it's expected to take 3 hours to get down to the Titanic wreck. From that, it sounds like they would be somewhere midway down.
- danpalmer 3y agoI believe I read that they lost "communication" 1hr 45 in, but continued to receive data of some kind or something for a little while longer. However, it sounds like they've had comms issues on most of their previous dives, so perhaps the 1hr 45 is just a red herring here.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago>continued to receive data of some kind or something for a little while longer The wireless Logitech controller was still in pairing mode.
- accrual 3y agoThe Titan wreck was found 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic, it was found on a smooth bottom of the sea floor, per the ongoing Coast Guard press release.
- INTPenis 3y agoSounds more like it imploded on the way down and the debris just kept going in about the same arch, landing 1600 feet from the titanic.
- broAhmed 3y ago
- accrual 3y agoHere are a couple of quotes I pulled from the USCG press release: > "debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel" > "1600 feet (487 meters) from the wreck of the Titanic" > "it is a smooth bottom", "there is no wreckage of the Titanic in the area" > "size of the debris field is consistent with an implosion in the water column" > "there doesn't seem to be any connection between the noises and the location of the debris on the seafloor"
- bilekas 3y agoI'm really curious about the carbon fibre design, I'm not a material expert but I do dive and for tanks they work because of the internal pressure of tank. The 'weaving' is supposed to be link connecting your two hands together interlocking fingers, in one direction you will meet a full resistance, but in the opposite direction your fingers will unlock. I have no idea but seems to me if there is external pressure the weaving would have 'imploded' depending on the design I guess. Really want to know more about this.
- az226 3y agoThe looking glass was only rated for 4,000 feet. Implosion happened around 9,000 feet, which would suggest the glass handled over twice its rated depth.
- stjohnswarts 3y agoand survived several dives before that to 13000ft, no?
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y agoFlip a coin enough times, it's bound to be tails
- bilekas 3y agoI'm wondering this myself, they don't have any history logged of a trip before. I think this might have been the first one. In minimal fairness, at least the owner put his money where is mouth was. Sidebar : The owner/ceo did a 10 hour overall at max ~3kMeteres A lot of measure of units thrown around in this thread too.
- pengaru 3y agoI hope we get some photos of the debris field including intact titanium rings and end caps. Would make a great long-overdue post for bustedcarbon.com
- seattle_anon 3y agoStockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0] My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan. He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment. Please remember that, for some members of the HN community, this one hits close to home. [0] Talk at last year's GeekWire Summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PGpjEDc96I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PGpjEDc96I
- king_magic 3y agoHe killed 4 people with his negligence. Not someone to remember as a hero.
- bambax 3y agoGood video. Some excerpts: "If you're not breaking things, you're not innovating. If you're operating in a known environment as most submersible manufacturers do, they don't break things." (8:49) "Our rule is we risk capital, we don't risk people." (9:56) "We used the same prepreg that's used on the 787." (11:15) And my favorite: "When you're outside the box, it's really hard to tell how far outside the box you really are." (8:30) He does seem to be far outside the box now. But the most significant quote IMHO is the one about "the same prepreg that's used on the 787". Like they often tell you that phone holders for bikes are made of "aircraft-grade aluminium" (which usually means it's 6061, the most common alloy). It's a strong indication of bullshit -- name dropping that doesn't have anything to do with the subject matter. In the rest of the presentation he seems nice enough, and truly passionate about deep sea exploration. So maybe he was a cool guy, I don't know. But in the end it's his hubris that killed him and his clients.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- oasisbob 3y ago> name dropping that doesn't have anything to do with the subject matter This is a good point. However, it's probably worth pointing out that in the past few decades -- at least here in the PNW -- carbon fiber availability to the hobbiest and small producer has been spotty. I'd refer to Boeing and being the same 787 carbon fiber for my personal projects, but that's just because they're made from Boeing offcuts donated to a local University. At the time (ca 2006), even bare weave was hard to obtain from private suppliers. Its feasible that Rush may have had help from Boeing sourcing his material, which puts comments like that in a different light.
- SirMaster 3y agoWhat I don't understand is, if it imploded, why didn't the boat hear the implosion? Surely that would be really loud. Louder than the 15 min audio ping that the boat is normally listening for.
- j-a-a-p 3y agoI would be surprised if the supporting vessel would have heard (were they listening?) or recognised that. Probably from the data from other hydrophones somebody will write an article on this sooner or later. I can't imagine it was loud: vessel was tiny, and the energy will reduce at the order of 3 quite a bit at 4 km distance. I can imagine it would be detectable with the right equipment and that this equipment is installed in the Atlantic.
- whytai 3y agoThe boat may not have heard it, but the navy certainly did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36439661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36439661
- Arn_Thor 3y agoTurns out the Navy heard it, based on a WSJ article. They started actively listening when notified that contact was lost, and shortly after they picked up what sounded like an implosion or explosion.
- archagon 3y agoWeren’t they notified 8+ hours after contact was lost?
- Arn_Thor 3y ago"The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after the submersible’s disappearance Sunday, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the Coast Guard commander on site, U.S. defense officials said. [...] The Navy said it shared its findings Sunday with the Coast Guard, which led the search, U.S. defense officials said. " https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-imp...
- Certhas 3y agoIt is notable how much news-coverage this received (for understandable reasons [1]) relative to the almost simultaneous disaster in the Mediterranean [2], where a shipwreck killed hundreds of people. [1] What springs to mind: Dramatic search action well suited for live blog coverage; psychological impact of the idea of people stranded in a submarine for days; And of course the average person here is probably a lot closer to taking a holiday trip in a submersible than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Messenia_migrant_boat_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Messenia_migrant_boat_dis...
- tacker2000 3y agoThis is unrelated to the article and can also be seen as political flamebait.
- Philip-J-Fry 3y agoI think the migrant boat disaster is horrible. But I was more interested in this missing sub because it was a bit mysterious what happened to it initially. Then it all comes out how badly built it is, how it's a death trap, etc. It's just more interesting personally. It doesn't mean it's worse than the migrant boat, it's just more interesting and I'd rather read about it. Mysterious cases always get more traction on social media too. There was an instance in the UK where a woman went missing near a river. People were speculating for weeks about what had happened. They would travel to the location and try and be detectives. It's was insane. People said it was because she was a white woman, but I don't think it's that. It's just the mystery of not knowing what happened and a body not being found straight away after divers searched the area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Nicola_Bulley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Nicola_Bulley Same goes for the sub. It's not because it was full of billionaires. It was because it was from a company infamous for cutting corners and people wanting confirmation that it did in fact implode. It also just boggles the mind why people who are so wealthy would get in something so shoddily put together. They have the money to fund a whole expedition like James Cameron did, but they'd rather increase the risk of death by an order of magnitude.
- 3y ago
- renewiltord 3y agoWell, that's a conclusion that I suppose many expected. It's rather tragic, yeah. What I can't say I expected is the gleeful tone from: - class warfare enthusiasts because the passengers were rich - regulation enthusiasts because the pilot espoused weakening them You'll see this online when a pedestrian or cyclist gets hit by a driver (along with "right of way doesn't mean anything when you're dead!" and "was he wearing a helmet?") At some point, the personal tragedy for me is realizing that a lot of people in this world really take great pleasure in others' suffering even if those people have done them no harm. Makes me want to use the Internet less, if I'm being honest, since I don't want to encounter this kind of glee at others's suffering.
- _Algernon_ 3y agoThis occurred only a couple of days after a migrant boat sank in the Mediterranean, with probably 500 people dead. The people on the Titan signed a waiver that mentioned the risk of death three times on the first page. They knew the risk and chose to take it with informed consent. The fact of the matter is that this entire story is way overblown by the news, and many people die of much more tragic (and not self-inflicted) causes every day. Give these people their Darwin awards, and let's move on.
- paganel 3y agoWe're not allowed to "eat the rich" anymore because of the repressive nature of the neo-liberal system, so incidents like this one where not one, but two billionaires find their gruesome death is the closest to a Middle Ages egalitarian-imposing peasant revolt that we could ever get. Sucks for the 19-year old kid involved in all this, that I agree with.
- cycrutchfield 3y agoWhat a ghoulish take
- paganel 3y agoThe ghoulish take are the 110,000 deaths of despair recorded in the US between February 2021 and February of 2022. The ghoulish take is this 19-year old kid from Chicago [2], definitely not a billionaire's son, saying how most of his friends and male acquaintances are usually gone by the age of 21. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rising-physical-pain-is-linked-to-more-deaths-of-despair1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rising-physical-p... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycOUwMJmTVM&t=134s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycOUwMJmTVM&t=134s
- hawk_ 3y agoI am curious how we (the society) justify the shared costs incurred in searching for people involved in such a reckless mission.
- krisoft 3y ago> how we (the society) justify the shared costs incurred in searching for people involved in such a reckless mission Nobody asked me if I want to pay for it or not. So i don’t feel that the “we” is justified. But if they would have asked me i would have voted to not move a finger unless some private entity (the company or the families, or literally anyone who wants to) pays for it. They went out of their way to do something knowingly recklesly dangerous, and the cost of any rescue attempt is enermous.
- hawk_ 3y agoYes well you're paying through your taxes at least (assuming you are a tax resident in the jurisdictions involved)
- krisoft 3y agoI understand. I’m not doubting that. What I’m saying is that I don’t need to justify anything. The people who have control over spending the money or not need to justify it. And since that is a very small set of people I don’t feel it is fair to ask how “we “ justify it. But even in a hypothetical where the government sent out a snap poll saying “Sup citizen. 5 fellas lost in a sub. Need $140m for rescue attempt. Send yay or nay.” I would have responded with “nay”. So even in that hypothetical I wouldn’t feel I need to justify why we should spend money to rescue these people. (By the by, this hypothetical sounds crazy, but we could totally have this kind of direct say in matters. We have the tech for it.)
- ghaff 3y agoSo who gets to arbitrate whether some activity is "unnecessarily" dangerous? I'm sure I do things that some people who mostly stick to good weather urban activities would consider unreasonably dangerous.
- fnord77 3y agoso let's say you're in an implosion event at 5000 ft. Do you feel it? The brain stays alive for 20 seconds after your heart stops. I would imagine your skull doesn't get crushed because fluids are only a tiny bit compressible with that much pressure I imagine your ribcage would collapse, stopping your heart immediately
- klysm 3y agoNah you cease to be biology very rapidly (order of few tens of ms).
- noAnswer 3y ago[flagged]
- kadomony 3y agoDon't be a dick.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- methodical 3y agoBesides the "what about this other accident with 500 victims!!!", "these people are dumb", and the "look how they ignored safety!" comments, I can't help but be amazed at how events like this make people crawl out of the woodworks spouting complete falsities as if they're facts. I've seen so many boneheaded comments over the last few days that I don't even know how to list all of them out, from people saying that Titanic is "relatively shallow" in the ocean, to people speculating that the passengers may have drowned as opposed to being /literally/ instantly vaporized. I think, per usual, this whole event has gone to show just how quickly (some) people assume an authoritative position in areas they have absolutely no expertise or knowledge about. Rant over.
- hombre_fatal 3y agoIt's amazing how fast everyone goes from being covid/vaccine experts to {flavor of the week} experts to submersible experts.
- mandmandam 3y ago[flagged]
- mulmen 3y agoThere are experts on every topic, you shouldn't be surprised to hear from them when that is the topic of discussion.
- sokoloff 3y agoConveniently, my fairly average high school graduating class of around 350 has dozens of experts on nearly any popular topic.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- krisoft 3y ago> to people speculating that the passengers may have drowned In layman terms “drowned” simply means that you died under water. It is not a sophisticated statement about the manner of anyone’s passing. People in the know understand that on a submarine you can die of hypoxia (if they mismanage the oxygen), or die of hypothermia (if they get stuck on the bottom with an intact pressure vessel, but no electricity) or die in an implosion, or burn to death in a conventional fire. In an everday conversation these all would be described as “drowned” by virtue of dying underwater even though none of them are what a coroner would report as drowning.
- bunga-bunga 3y agoThe conversation around this event is incredible. Why can’t I do something risky and deal with the consequences myself (i.e. death)? I want to climb K2 alone in shorts, don’t cry my loss. I’ll die doing what I love.
- LikeAnElephant 3y agoYou absolutely can - so long as you don't get other people killed in the process. The CEO of this company convinced customers to join him on his death march, which IMO is a worth crying about.
- bunga-bunga 3y agoWe don’t know the details, they could have been well aware. I’d buy a ticket in this death trap if I could afford it.
- LikeAnElephant 3y agoTrue - but I’ll choose to err on the side of being sad about the loss of life even if I don’t know all the details.
- fsloth 3y agoThe problem was they sold tourist trips in this deathtrap. Sure, do whatever you want by yourself, if it hurts only you. Selling this as a product, by tapping into the existing market for adventure tourism was borderline evil. The difference with this and generic adventure tourism is that this was about as survivable (I guess) as a round of Russian roulette.
- js2 3y ago> OceanGate’s submersibles are the only known vessels to use real-time (RTM) hull health monitoring. With this RTM system, we can determine if the hull is compromised well before situations become life-threatening, and safely return to the surface. This innovative safety system is not currently covered by any classing agency. Given that Stockton Rush risked and lost his own life, he must have believed these words. He ignored pleas from others in the industry that what he was doing was unsafe. What was he thinking? https://archive.ph/yBrpk https://archive.ph/yBrpk
- jacquesm 3y agoIt's an interesting question. (One of very few on this subject that are really interesting.) Those who cause progress to happen to some extent have to have something in them that causes them to ignore conventional wisdom. Because they're swimming against the current. And if they succeed it may well pay off, both in credits and financially. Montgolfier brothers, Lilienthal, the Wright brothers and so on, and that's just a small slice of aviation. Every one of them went against conventional wisdom and the laws of physics as they were known or suspected to be at the time. But there is a final arbiter, and those are the real laws of nature, and it's first order derivative: materials science. And this is where it gets much more complex. To design something that can work is an accomplishment in itself, even if it works only once. That one mr. Rush can chalk up as a victory. Where he fails is to take into account the fact that safety knowledge is written in blood and that the difference between 'device safe enough to take passengers on' and 'device safe enough that I, the builder/designer will travel on it' is very, very large. And if all of the industry, including some of your own employees say that you are doing it wrong and you still persist, and risk the lives of others then you are crossing over into irresponsibility, rather than being a pioneer. Whether or not he realized this himself seems a foregone conclusion: he likely thought this was all perfectly safe and those others were needlessly concerned but they were simply more aware of the real risks involved than he was. Fine line between 'god complex' and 'innovator'.
- grog454 3y agoThis makes me wonder how we went from Wright brothers to commercial flight. Despite being the longest Wikipedia article I've ever seen the Wright Brother's wiki doesn't seem to cover it. Maybe it's a poorly defined question.
- bilekas 3y agoWhat really bothers me about the coverage of this, and I'm not totally anti media etc, was that nobody mentioned on the fact that the tracking system lost contact also. It was only mentioned that the communications was lost, if there had of been media mentioning that the tracking device also lost contact, I think a lot of people would have recognised straight await that it was a critical collapse. No deep gauge device loses contact from distances <4000M unless it was exploded. I feel bad for the families given some false hope, I didn't personally think they would be found, but did believe they were suffering a far worse way to go.
- bradstewart 3y agoPower loss?
- bilekas 3y agoPower loss is a real stretch to happen at the same time of communications, I understand that the coms to fail is a non-zero chance of failing, it happens. A transponder is super rare on it's own, but when they both go at the same time, protocol dictates you declare an emergency straight await (the top-side cnc). Not that it would have made a difference, but they certainly would have told the coast guard all of this. Even after waiting FAR too long IMO.
- activiation 3y agoComms need power...
- bilekas 3y agoYes indeed, but the transponder itself is a self-powered device, they are battery powered when needed and those batteries are usually no joke from the ones I've encountered, as it should be. Specific times I'm not sure. I'll link one I have worked extensively with. They are designed to be extremely fault tolerant with a lot of redundancy and fail safes. It's genuinely extremely hard to not notice it losing power. V5 https://www.sonardyne.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Sonardyne_compatt_5-_-mini.pdf https://www.sonardyne.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Sonardy... Edit: Battery Life (Listening, Disabled) 417 days (Lithium) 417 days (Lithium) It's actually longer than I even imagined. And this is an old version I believe.