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Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

• anderspitman 3y ago
  Touchscreens are great for developers, but generally terrible for users.
  • seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    They are cheap, let’s face it. Knobs and switches with wiring cost money, space, and weight. A flat screen plus voice input is simply an economy to save money, space, and weight.
• mydriasis 3y ago
  I can blindly feel may way around the dash of my 1999 and get some stuff done without taking my eyes off the road at all. I'll be glad if a 2028 shares that feature when the time comes.
• sakex 3y ago
  A touch screen with driver buttons and voice command would be ideal. The passenger should still be able to man the touch screen and the driver should be able to control the interface without having to look at it.
• throw7 3y ago
  Anyone with two brain cells could tell you touchscreens suck in cars. They physically demand visually attention to do anything.
• amiga1200 3y ago
  Automakers admit? It's not theirs to admit to. Touchscreens are the only way to go. Buttons on phones went out years ago. I still have to look for buttons on my ICE car, and worse yet the buttons are hidden under the steering, have different tactile feel. And that's just this one manufacturer!
• friend_and_foe 3y ago
  I just don't understand the need for "infotainment" in cars. I carry a screen in my pocket that I mount to my dashboard. It does a much better job of navigating me around and enabling me to talk to people than any goofy head unit with UX designed at a car manufacturer ever could. All I need in a car is a knob for the air conditioning and a knob for the volume. I still just use a single din aftermarket stereo that plays music from an SD card. I will never have anything more. I will drive cars as old as myself if I have to for the rest of my life before I allow some car manufacturer to push me around.
• Friedduck 3y ago
  My takeaway is how tone-deaf automakers are. Do they actually need clients with fire and pitchforks to listen? Touchscreens are the wrong UI choice for cars. Full stop.
• ejz 3y ago
  “Automakers think the problem is touch screens and not their software” There, I fixed that headline for you
• anon3242 3y ago
  I just want to emphasize two words: trust and freedom. TRUST: The primary reason why some solutions proposed by other comments around how we can use smart knobs, touchscreens with protrusions don't work is that we TRUST the physical buttons most. If you feel it registers, you know it surely registers. You can reach your finger towards the panel without thinking beforehand whether to increase or decrease the volume without fearing accidentally triggering other functions. In words of the WWDC 2018 presentation "Designing fluid interfaces", the thought happens WITH the motion. Why do people still use physical camera blockers when there are already plenty of software solutions available? Trust. Smart knob-like implementations would not solve the problem. For really important stuff like the volume controls/mute button, we really need something that we users can always trust. The ideal implementation is probably only using them to control variables currently showing on the screen(like the touchbar!) I read an article before about choosing keyboard to maximize typing speed. It mentioned that the more confidence you have with the keys the better. The experience of typing with unreliable and low-feedback butterfly keys on a VPS over the globe with 300ms roundtrip latency is beyond hell. I have always hated automatic forced updates, even when they do not cause any performance or stability issues. With physical buttons, you know it is here to stay and can never change. However even we manage to make users able to navigate the touchscreen without looking or just with peripheral vision, who knows when it would change drastically tomorrow when it updates itself in the night? The crux is that with touchscreens, car makers would treat them, and the car, as a massive mobile device, but we users actually expect them to be like computers, or single-purpose servers. FREEDOM: The actual implementation is much much more important than the idea itself. The problem is simply too much freedom for the developer. JS and CSS animations/transitions, when used properly, can make the experience smooth while not being dizzy and annoying. But observe the current fiasco of "BEAUTIFUL" and "MODERN" web "DESIGN"s. The thing is, the limit of how bad incorrect executions can be, is probably more important the limit of how good it can be when correctly executed. We can have the fastest processors, screen with the fastest response time, and still some UI "designer" can make it feel slower than the Windows 95 on Intel Pentium, remotely controlled over the continent. (Please excuse my poor english and bad writing skills.)
• 1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
  "Although they look fancy, Farah said that carmakers can purchase screens for less than $50, making them significantly less expensive than tactile controls."
  • stevage 3y ago
    That surprises me. I seem to recall having read something about the difficulty Tesla had in getting their fancy screens and how much they cost. $50 for a tiny one maybe.
    • asdfman123 3y ago
      Maybe that was just due to the supply shortage?
    • ummonk 3y ago
      That was because there weren't any automotive grade screens of the size they wanted already being supplied to OEMs.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    • zamnos 3y ago
      Teslas have 17" screens, and no one made an automotive-grade one at that size, so it's no wonder they had problems sourcing it. But at scale, I could see the 7" properly automotive-grade screens being available for $50 when there are some availabile for less than that on Amazon.
      • sroussey 3y ago
        They have double OLED (dual-layer it’s called sometimes) which is required for brightness? They are so expensive, they aren’t used anywhere else but automotive (rumors swirl about iPads using this some day). The LCDs with high nits are cheaper but only rectangular. One of the big issues is it working in 120 heat in the desert while sitting in the sun (particularly for convertibles).
• linkjuice4all 3y ago
  There was a company (Tactus Technology - now defunct) that had a "morphing" touch screen wherein the surface of the screen could be raised up to provide tactile feedback about "where" your fingers are on the screen (e.g. 'raised' keys for a keyboard [0]). I recall this being "the next big thing" in touch screens about 10 years ago but the tech didn't seem to go anywhere. For small screens such as your phone it was probably overkill but cars seemed like the perfect use case if they could have gotten the technology right. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JelhR2iPuw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JelhR2iPuw0
  • ntkachov 3y ago
    Knowning little about the specs required for automotive grade it could be that the tech couldn't handle the vibration, temp extremes/changes and other hardships that car parts encounter. Just a theory.
  • zamnos 3y ago
    Why is it overkill for phones? I spend way more time looking at my phone than I ever look at my car's AC controls. Ofc, my car's AC controls are physical buttons and I've had the car a while, so I don't need to look at them, but I think my point remains.
    • alanbernstein 3y ago
      Wouldn't it be more sensible to use on the device that you look at less, as a percentage of usage time?
  • hinkley 3y ago
    There were other groups that were looking at how piezoelectrics in a surface could create vibrational patterns that the finger interprets as texture. Apple even through some money at this avenue at one point but I haven't heard anything in ages. Part of the problem of textured screens is that you have to be able to touch the interface without activating anything. That's newer enough tech that the prices are probably just now coming down.
• fnordpiglet 3y ago
  I’m apparently unique in this, but I prefer touch screens. Not because I fail to realize the value of buttons, but I don’t find sitting in an airplane cockpit with a few hundred buttons that much better than a screen that is contextual. I like having a few buttons for common tasks like audio controls, and voice control for most else. The rest of the stuff can be on a touch screen for all I care. I get others prefer buttons - but it’s not monolithically preferred.
  • TrainedMonkey 3y ago
    Concur, I am a minimalist and I for one love clean interfaces. If the argument is ergonomics, majority of stuff should be controllable with voice. I often set temperature / enable seat heaters using voice.
    • potatofrenzy 3y ago
      Great if you don't have a thick accent, no kids screaming in the back, etc.
    • nluken 3y ago
      Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I can’t imagine using a voice command to do something as simple as turn on a seat heater. That feels like way more effort (and honestly more distracting) than one or two button presses that I don’t have to look away from the road for. Don’t you have to hit a button to start the voice command anyway?
      • fnordpiglet 3y ago
        Usually the voice command is a button on the steering wheel.
        • crooked-v 3y ago
          Sure, but you have to already know what the voice command is to turn on the seat heater and reproduce that every time, versus being able to look around and just... see an appropriate button. And that's before getting into the mess of misheard commands that even Google and Apple still can't get right despite having gigantic teams working on it 24/7.
• CamperBob2 3y ago
  Nothing wrong with touchscreens, just don't rely exclusively on them for basic vehicle operations! Thoughtless trend-following caused all these UX complaints in the first place, and it sounds like the automakers are hoping it will fix them as well. It won't.
  • water-your-self 3y ago
    Going against a trend and being wrong hurts more than following the trend and being wrong.
    • culi 3y ago
      Yeah but being the only one to not follow a trend when the trend goes wrong also has a huge advantage. I feel like it balances out. Ultimately, designers just need to be more thoughtful and purposeful about the choices they make I also find it really difficult to wrap my head around how Tesla's turn signal buttons on their "yoke" could possibly have made it through any testing. Did none of the people they tested it on use turn signals?? Did they just not test at all? It seems like the smallest effort of UX testing would've immediately pointed out how terrible this is Tbh it feels like ultimately it's just companies deciding to skimp out on design. Tight deadlines and lazy cost-cutting measures probably contribute
• exabrial 3y ago
  Pro Tip: So do ER Doctors and Insurance Companies. What would be best is something along the lines of a hybrid aircraft controls. See F/A-18 Hornet cockpit. Basically tactile buttons around the perimeter (maybe just side or bottom for consumer), but the options can change. Also for consumers, touchscreen should be a value-add to tactile controls, with hardware buttons as primary. So you could touch-scroll with a finger, but you could also just hit pagedwn tactile button.
  • cameldrv 3y ago
    A lot of small aircraft controls have moved to touchscreens, and they're terrible, especially in turbulence.
    • roeles 3y ago
      On gliders it's common to have buttons on top of the stick. There are <enter> and <escape> like buttons and a 4-way button emulating the arrow keys. Using these to navigate menus still demands a whole lot attention. It just isn't very predictable.
      • Arrath 3y ago
        I drove a friend's Audi and it had the best input method possible, down on the center console next to the gear shift there was a little nub joystick that allowed 8 way movement on the map, the collar of the nub rotated to cycle around the menus, and you pushed it down to click. There was a back button next to it on the console. This actually made me consider an Audi, except for the fact that by the time I drove it this was an older model, and that input had long been superseded by a pure touchscreen.
    • omoikane 3y ago
      Airbus A380 has a keyboard, I am not sure if that's common on other planes: https://www.google.com/search?q=airbus+a380+keyboard&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=airbus+a380+keyboard&tbm=isc... Maybe that's the endgame -- dedicated buttons for commonly used functions, keyboards for everything else.
• v0idzer0 3y ago
  I love my touchscreen. It’s so much better than the knobs in my old car.
  • lolinder 3y ago
    How so? You're the first person I've heard express this view, so I'm genuinely curious.
    • 6th 3y ago
      I used to go cruising with a bunch of knobs.
    • xwdv 3y ago
      He uses Apple CarPlay.
    • lvturner 3y ago
      I'm not sure if it's the touch screen in my car that I love or the rest of the control system. But for me the whole thing is set and forget, if I need to adjust volume it's a scroll wheel on my steering wheel -- air conditioning I never really need to adjust. Sat nav -- yes I need to adjust this occasionally, but it's either voice command or park and change the destination with a keyboard -- but I don't see this being different in any other car? (Maybe a scroll wheel with recent destinations?) I actually don't understand what it is that drivers are changing so regularly that they need to take their eyes off the road and look at a screen or twiddle a knob? My signular gripe is that there is no physical button to open the glove-box, which is an annoying but very infrequent occurance.
      • lolinder 3y ago
        > My signular gripe is that there is no physical button to open the glove-box, which is an annoying but very infrequent occurance. That's really weird. Button nothing, why is there not just a handle on the glove box? Who thought it was a good idea to hook that up to the computer? Does that mean you can't open the glove box unless the car is turned on?
• ptelomere 3y ago
  IMHO, don't blame touch screens, blame bad UI design. My touch screen annoyance: "oops, it detected a swipe instead of a press, because the car just went through a bump!". Or, "Oops! I accidentally pressed cancel instead of back button, now my map navigation is gone!!!". Design the UI well, so that drivers can't screw things up easily.
  • bloodyplonker22 3y ago
    It's not about the UI. It's about the tactile feel and being able to reach and touch a knob while keeping your eyes on the road.
    • webprofusion 3y ago
      I agree some drivers prefer real buttons, I disagree that "Drivers hate touchscreens" as it implies 100%. I manage fine with just a touch screen and a few basic controls on the steering wheel. If you're driving you shouldn't be fiddling with anything extraneous. Lights/windshield wipers should be automatic in 99% of circumstances and if they're not then that's what needs to be improved. You shouldn't need to reach for anything because if you do that's already either a design fail or operator error.
• wlesieutre 3y ago
  Saw the Impreza’s 2024 redesign, apparently Subaru missed the memo. https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2024-Subaru-Impreza-RS-32.jpg https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/2024-Su... I recently test drove a Mazda, and while I’ve seen people online complain about their “commander knob” and lack of touch screen, I liked it pretty well. Screen up further on the dashboard is nice for glancing at maps.
  • moron4hire 3y ago
    It's why I left Subaru and skipped on Toyota to get my CX-5. It does take a little too much attention sometimes, but it's definitely better than the touchscreen systems overall
  • post_break 3y ago
    I have a new miata, the touch screen is disabled above a certain speed. It's the worse of both worlds. Touch screen sometimes, jog wheel other times. The cursor on the screen lags so you're looking at the screen trying to figure out what is highlighted vs taking 1 second to touch the button you want. It's so bad I ripped out the screen and installed a 3rd party wireless carplay screen before the first car payment. It's 1000% better now.
    • iakov 3y ago
      A have a 2016 Mazda3. The infotainment is useless, so I just leave it on the home page usually. I've ordered a CarPlay retrofit that uses the stock screen, wondering if the enabling/disabling behaviour will be the same it CarPlay.
    • wlesieutre 3y ago
      Their new models allow you to enable it all the time (CX-50, I assume CX-90 and the upcoming CX-70), which I do think is a good idea. Not even just for the driver to be touching it, but if you have a passenger you can let them deal with putting in directions or managing your audio and the wheel is a lot less obvious than a touchscreen to someone who isn't familiar with it. And as a driver, it felt like there were some things where it'd be easier to just touch the screen too. Like for the buttons scattered around the corner of Maps, scrolling through a list or a grid is easy to navigate, random stuff all over the screen you'll have to learn the order.
• flyinghamster 3y ago
  I think one of the most frustrating aspects of this whole kerfluffle is the automakers' longstanding willingness to ignore customers and double down at any pushback. It's downright stupid that it has taken this level of screaming from customers to roll back a design choice that should never have been made.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • zeedude 3y ago
    It’s all about the bottom line. Touch screens consolidate a ton of otherwise expensive switch gear. Going back to physical knobs and buttons means going back to paying for engineering, assembling, testing, etc.
    • civilized 3y ago
      Profiting off of a less safe product that kills people could be seen as an egregious moral deficiency.
      • xpe 3y ago
        Indeed. Not uncommon but still unacceptable.
      • yellowapple 3y ago
        Corporations, being paperclip-maximizing automata, don't have morals in the first place, so no deficiency is possible.
        • branko_d 3y ago
          But... but... corporation are people! Aren’t they? Mitt Romney, have you lied to me??
    • rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
      From a product and even financial standpoint, the trade-off doesn’t make sense. All the litigation that could occur due to accidents caused by a less safe design plus the reputational damage that an inexcellent product could cause to the brand sounds so expensive to me.
• toss1 3y ago
  This is really fundamental The job of the cockpit designer is to 1) minimize the workload on the pilot/driver while providing 2) maximum practical ability to control the vehicle. Period. Ergonomic design to control the vehicle. Period. End of story. Style shouldn't even be in the top 10 considerations. ALL of this touchscreen, flattening and making the buttons the same, making unique configurations may be wonderful for the mental masturbation of the designers, but it is not even in the same profession as vehicle design. The pilot/driver should be able to make maximal use of prior knowledge (i.e., ways of doing things that are standard, either by law or by previous consensus), and make maximal use tactile and auditory feedback (e.g., buttons and dials with a familiar and distinct feeling and positive feedback) to minimize the need to direct vision anywhere other than out the windshield and mirrors. Well-designed display controls can be fantastic - - - - IF AND ONLY IF - the work is put into the design to minimize pilot/driver workload. Anything requiring a menu structure as we use on desktop machines is potentially deadly. Just because we are familiar with menu structures does not mean that they can be operated while negotiating traffic in the rain hurtling down the road at 30 meters per second. Any designer or manager who thinks that is reasonable or acceptable is incompetent. (obvious exception here is extensive setup operations to be done whilst parked) And, if you are going to put in a touchscreen that does have these characteristics, then at least allow the passenger to use it whilst in motion - you have the damn seat sensor data on the CAN bus for the airbag, so use it for the UI. I understand not wanting to be liable for crashing someone with your incompetent UI, but impairing use of the car & navigation just makes it worse Which brings us back to: just do the hard and expensive work of properly designing the cockpit UI. And spend the extra few bucks for good knobs and buttons. I'll happily pay $1000 more for something that works, is a pleasure to use, and isn't trying to make me fight it and risk my life every time I use it for the designer's ego and/or the manager's budget.
• aikinai 3y ago
  Someone should do something like this smart knob[0]. It looks incredible. [0] https://youtu.be/ip641WmY4pA?t=58 https://youtu.be/ip641WmY4pA?t=58
  • diziet 3y ago
    The BMW X-Drive controller is somewhat similar with additional up/down/left/right buttons
    • bdavbdav 3y ago
      Yep - very similar. You can navigate huge lists by spinning it fast and it freewheels. Its a pretty nicely designed interface.
  • hinkley 3y ago
    There's an older 'smart' knob out there that was meant I think for CAD interfaces. I don't recall if it's made anymore, but I do know that it's shown up on the bridge of a number of scifi aircraft/spaceships over the last decade. But for the purposes of this discussion, having a couple three of those on the dashboard and using them a bit like radial menus would probably split the difference pretty well.
    • speedbird 3y ago
      https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/spacemouse-compact/ https://3dconnexion.com/us/product/spacemouse-compact/
      • hinkley 3y ago
        That's the one! Looks like they still make it. Not sure why I thought they stopped. I thought I saw it most recently on The Expanse, but it does not appear to be part of the MCRN Frigate pilot's seat. So either I'm thinking of some other ship, or a different bridge.
  • robocat 3y ago
• AlbertCory 3y ago
  For some reason that I take no credit for, my voice works perfectly with most voice recognition systems I've tried. I still hate encountering it on an 800 number. My favorite story, though, was when someone left a voice message for me in Vietnamese, and Google's VR system tried to interpret it as English. "How about goddamn lunch?" is the thing I remember.
  • hinkley 3y ago
    How about goddamned lunch?
  • zouhair 3y ago
    With my accent, on my phone I end up having to use the keyboard 80% of the time when I try to use Google assistant.
• hinkley 3y ago
  <picture of Leo Dicaprio pointing energetically> The ridiculous thing is we should just be about at the point of programmable buttons and instead we have an embedded webapp running our car.
• pfannkuchen 3y ago
  I think this mostly applies to bad or cheap touch screens, which most cars today have. I used to be strongly in the anti touch screen camp, but after getting a car where the touch screen is basically an iPad in terms of display quality and touch input quality and size, I surprisingly don’t really mind it. Good voice control also helps a ton.
  • zouhair 3y ago
    When I'm driving I don't like look away from the road to push a "button".
  • lolinder 3y ago
    The question isn't whether you mind it, the question is whether you're more likely to get in an accident because of it. Without the tactile feedback of a physical button or dial, and especially in cases where button position varies based on which mode you're in, it's hard to imagine even a high-quality touchscreen being safe.
• stephc_int13 3y ago
  Screens or touchscreens are useless without full visual focus. Physical buttons can still be used without constantly looking at them, this is a huge difference. Touchscreens should be considered as a low-cost fallback when better solutions are unpractical or too costly. They rarely provide a better experience.
• zouhair 3y ago
  Besides phones and tablets, seldom touchscreens bring anything positive.
• logicalmonster 3y ago
  For the life of me I can't find the link, but there was an awesome HN or Reddit post a few years back where a designer tried to design a touchscreen experience that might work for cars that takes into account that drivers can't focus on the screen. It's been years since I've seen it so I probably don't remember the exact details, but I think it worked by the system working based on gestures wherever the drivers' hand touched the screen so you didn't need to touch a specific tiny target in a moving car.
  • nonethewiser 3y ago
    That solves one problem but now I have to memorize a bunch of arbitrary gestures. Still seems like a terrible experience overall.
    • logicalmonster 3y ago
      I'm not remembering it fully because I can't find the link, but I recall it was a very smart design that seemed well thought out and logical. That said, the general point of the article seems very correct, physical buttons have always felt radically superior to touch screens.
  • thirdhaf 3y ago
    Was it this one perhaps? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7261003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7261003
    • logicalmonster 3y ago
      Thank you. That seems to be it. I don't think it's perfect, but it seems like a hell of a good improvement on the touch interfaces car companies try and come up with today that takes into account that a driver wants to use muscle memory and not stare at the screen.
      • thirdhaf 3y ago
        Funny story, that demo only exists because the designer was mis-categorized as a software engineer after an acquisition by Apple. After nearly getting the person in question fired it ultimately resulted in a successful job category change for them.
• emptybits 3y ago
  The Ineos Grenadier (available now in Australia and Europe and apparently within the year in North America) has a buttonful dash and also cockpit-style switches above. With additional knockouts above to add your own. Fully gloved operation of anything critical. Great trend for getting into a truck with cold, wet, gloved hands and wanting to do anything. Like adjust heat and seat heat and defrosters.
  • leemailll 3y ago
    Interesting, I watch pro-cycling for years, and this is the first time I know Ineos Grenadier is a car not some fancy chemicals Ratcliffe madeup
• rektide 3y ago
  We are just going to be ping-ponging back & forth between three idiotic subideal situations, buttons versus touchscreens versus phone control. It's going to be a decade of no synergy, of no programmability, of no softness. Ideally there are semi flexible reconfigurable systems, with a couple physical buttons & knobs, and some touchscreen displays, and the phones can also via local area APIs be given permission to control & manipulate the car too. But we just don't have a mature software ecosystem in general to support the complex assortment of peripherals (av, hvac, lighting, windows, seats, etc) that cars present. This is a crisis because it's one of the softest most configurable most attuneable things mankind has made, and we have only crude ability to carve in stone some choices that then will broadly apply. These systems are firmer than soft, and that's a broad problem the CS world in general has helped little with in the last decade (after extremely involved & interested work in uniquotous & pervasive computing simmered away).
• boringg 3y ago
  You know what I love about touchscreens? Filling out forms - its the greatest experience known to human kind.
• jmyeet 3y ago
  Using a touchscreen while driving has the obvious problem that you have to look at the screen vs physical buttons where tactile feedback and muscle memory can be sufficient. But the problem is way beyond that and goes way beyond cars. Touch UIs are inherently lazy and they encourage you to create bad UI/UX. Why? Because your UI becomes software and you can always update it later. The net result is you don't. Having tactile buttons forces you to do upront UI/UX work to make sure you have sufficient buttons, they make sense, etc. It's a cost-saving issue to just not do this kind of work. In any touchscreen on a car you'll find abasic options buried menus deep to the point where you have to Google where to find it. That's a big reason why touchscreens suck.
• nashashmi 3y ago
  remember the time when GM said it’s not going to include CarPlay in its vehicles? And how most of hn was in revolt? here comes News that says we should get rid of touchscreens, why is hn supporting this? (For the record, I hated touch screens in cars before that was a thing and I am OK with gm removing carplay.)
  • NotAFood 3y ago
    CarPlay replaces functionality built into the car that runs the navigation, dialer, podcasts, and music player. HN likely support CarPlay because the built-in functionality that does this is usually outdated, intuitive, or nonexistent. Most of the frustration around touchscreens involves them replacing AC controls, headlight stock, seat heaters, etc...
  • CamperBob2 3y ago
    They aren't removing touchscreens. They're trying to say they can do a better job at UX than Apple. Who knows, maybe they can. But there is no reason on earth to think so.
  • tmh88j 3y ago
    These are 2 separate issues you're discussing. > remember the time when GM said it’s not going to include CarPlay in its vehicles? And how most of hn was in revolt? Most OEM's made terrible infotainment software that is outdated, lacking features and often extremely sluggish and clunky to use. CarPlay and Android Auto are able to bring modern features OEM's can't seem to figure out, like Google Maps integration instead of some terrible maps implementation that is outdated, as in not having addresses added in the last few years, not just "old" and cumbersome to use. I can just open up google maps on my phone, type an address and directions appear on my screen. Same with music streaming apps like Spotify. > here comes News that says we should get rid of touchscreens, why is hn supporting this? Not eliminate touchscreens entirely, but rather stop putting every single control they possibly can into them making vehicles dangerous to operate. Putting climate, radio, lighting, etc... into a touch screen, especially when buried in sub-menus, is just lazy cost cutting. The other big complaint are touch capacitive "buttons" and sliders. They're distracting and difficult to use, especially on anything but perfectly smooth roads. For example, the Cayenne's interior is basically just a wall of touch capacitive "buttons"[1] that you can't easily reach down to press with your eyes on the road, you have to look down at it. The other issue is feedback from it. Constant beeping from input on menus, like Toyota, just becomes obnoxious. Buttons provide instant mechanical feedback that does't lave you guessing if you pressed on the right spot. Here's a clip discussing some complaints about VW doing all of this to the Golf [2] and how frustrating it is to use. [1] https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/2022-porsche-cayenne-coupe-steering-wheel-carbuzz-737879-1600.jpg https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/2022-porsche-cayenne-... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU92h1hez_8&t=159s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU92h1hez_8&t=159s
• bedobi 3y ago
  Audi have some very recent cars that are completely screen free - they have a screen which completely retracts into the dashboard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_F2dpj5Kas&t=42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_F2dpj5Kas&t=42s and if you have analog gauges too, there are no screens. (except the tiny one between the gauges which doesn't count imo) They're also completely piano black free. Best car interior maybe ever. Thread here https://old.reddit.com/r/Audi/comments/w9dkcm/what_models_had_the_retractable_screen https://old.reddit.com/r/Audi/comments/w9dkcm/what_models_ha...
  • TacticalCoder 3y ago
    Also the VW group, but on the high-end luxury side, the rotating display (three positions) of the Bentley Continental GT (that car shares its platform with the Porsche Panamera, also from the VW group, but the Panamera doesn't have that rotating display): https://youtu.be/JZNGniDpJ-s https://youtu.be/JZNGniDpJ-s
    • bedobi 3y ago
      the side with the analog dials looks amazing shame they made the dash shiny black though :P I hate it as much as I hate touchscreens haha shakes walking stick
      • LeftHandPath 3y ago
        They have many options for the veneer - carbon fiber, aluminum, and a number of gorgeous wood options. If I find the dough I really hope to buy one before they're forced to go all EV.
  • jimmySixDOF 3y ago
    They have also just been promoting the Activesphere Concept Car in the last few months that uses Mixed Reality / AR glasses developed in collaboration with Magic Leap. https://youtu.be/f0MC1D3c0m8 https://youtu.be/f0MC1D3c0m8
  • tom9729 3y ago
• colordrops 3y ago
  This keeps coming up on Hacker News. It's not that drivers hate touch screens. It's that most of them are terribly implemented. People hated smartphones until Apple released the iPhone. Just think about smartphones before that. The UX was horrid. I suspect most people in this thread piling onto the hate don't own a recent model Tesla. I know that some owners aren't fans, but most are. There are three things that make the touch screen on Teslas work unlike other cars: 1. The UX - big responsive displays with fast processors and properly designed UIs. They aren't an afterthought like most other vehicles. Every time I drive a car other than my Tesla I too hate the half-ass touch screens. 2. There are indeed still physical controls still on the Tesla for important functions, e.g. drive control, wipers, and audio selection and volume. It's not 100% touch screen. 3. Automation and voice controls handle most of the cases where you'd normally need a knob or button, e.g. wipers and lights are automatic. And voice control seems to be using a state of the art API (Google?) so it works pretty well.
  • wildrhythms 3y ago
    Taking your eyes off the road to adjust the AC is a terrible UX. And as for 'voice commands' bless your heart to imagine every car doesn't have screaming kids in the back seat or a driver with a heavy accent. I want a knob.
    • natch 3y ago
      Fortunately AC starts out on auto which works great even while your kids are screaming.
      • speedgoose 3y ago
        Yes I don’t think many people actually often need to fiddle the AC settings while driving. And that would be a very seldomly used knob when you have a good automatic AC.
    • shushpanchik 3y ago
      Last software update allows to map many functions to long-press of steering wheel button. So you can assign AC temperature to it, then you don't need to take your eyes of the road - just long-press left button and scroll up/down.
• codegeek 3y ago
  ADT the security company started doing touchscreens for their panels and I hate it so much even though I am a tech guy etc. Give me the old school physical keypad any day. I will never buy a Tesla because I sat in one with a friend and I was like no way I am relying on an entire computer/touch screen to run a car.
  • natch 3y ago
    It doesn’t run the car at all. In fact you can reboot it while driving.
    • ghostpepper 3y ago
      Are there any controls you can't access while it's rebooting? Hypothetically if it didn't come back up, what features would be inaccessible?
      • natch 3y ago
        A long list of non essential features. But pedals and steering and doors and windows still work fine in your scenario (which btw I’ve never heard of happening but of course it’s maybe possible). Not sure about wipers, haven’t tried the wiper button while rebooting, hmm now I’m really curious…
        • piperswe 3y ago
          Back when I owned a Tesla, I had the infotainment system crash at least once. Luckily I was on a neighborhood road, so I could just go slow in lieu of the speedometer.
          • natch 3y ago
            Wow, you really were lucky, whew.
  • justrealist 3y ago
    Other autos all route physical buttons through the car's OS now. Nothing is actually directly wired to the corresponding actuators anymore. The buttons are mechanical but are basically equivalent to a touchscreen in terms of control.
• brenns10 3y ago
  I fully agree with ditching distracting screens for safety reasons, but this article focuses more on customers disliking the screens. Maybe my 2017 Civic is not new enough to experience that frustration? It has a touchscreen with Android Auto. All of my environment controls are on buttons and knobs beneath the screen. I'm comfortable adjusting with the smallest of glances. The only downside here is that the knob is just hooked up to the display, so it has no minimum or maximum: you see the level that is currently set on the screen. A reasonable compromise. Music controls and cruise control on the wheel. Easily skip, pause, play, and adjust volume or radio stations with the left hand, and also voice control or hang up the phone. Right hand has cruise control. And of course blinkers, wipers, headlights on the sticks at either side of the wheel. Hazard lights are a physical button over the screen. Automatic gear shifter is at the center console. The only things I can't do with physical button/knob and maybe a brief glance, are select playlists in Spotify, and make changes to Google maps. But for the most part, I don't need to do that while in motion, and I think they should disable those inputs at speed unless a passenger is in the car doing it. Voice control is a decent option for some of it, but it's honestly a bit distracting too, since voice control sometimes messes up and you need to focus on the screen/response too much. So I guess all of that to say, please do get rid of some of the touchscreen controls for safety. (Also add speed limiters in cities and neighborhoods, for safety). But I guess I'm surprised that customers are the ones revolting here.
  • sakras 3y ago
    > All of my environment controls are on buttons and knobs beneath the screen. Indeed people aren’t complaining about stuff like this. My friend just bought a new Subaru that has 0 buttons. It now takes two presses on the not-very-responsive touch screen to change the power of the seat warmer. Same with all of the other environmental controls. It’s not just less tactile, it’s much slower. Personally I appreciate having a screen of some sort for music and navigation, but for things that I’ll be changing often while driving such as environmental controls buttons are the way to go.
• civilized 3y ago
  What a gruesome period for cars. It's like if Apple held onto the terrible butterfly keyboard for 15 years instead of 5.
• jordanpg 3y ago
  I wouldn't hate them so much if they didn't suck: slow, laggy, buggy, overcomplicated, bloated. Why is this? My few datapoints are 2016, 2017, and 2021 Subarus. Are there any cars out there with sharp, snappy UIs that actually work well?
• sheepscreek 3y ago
  Thank you automakers. I can’t imagine using the touchscreen to change the wiper speed while my kid is yelling in the backseat and I’m driving on the highway. And some irresponsible driver cutting in my lane while I’m doing this. I also feel for the poor astronauts in a touchscreen only SpaceX Dragon cockpit (unless the design changed). The feeling of being helpless, even if it’s perceived helplessness.
  • natch 3y ago
    Fortunately the wiper speed changes itself automatically, and contrary to what you may have been told by the internet, there is a hardware button that with one click brings the controls to where they can be operated without looking once you get the muscle memory. Before you get the muscle memory? Just leave them on auto. I mean, your kid is yelling. Also, auto emergency braking is fantastic.
• grensley 3y ago
  I drive a 2008 Hyundai Elantra, and with the addition of a bluetooth adaptor, I really have everything I want in a car. It's got no idea what's going on, and I like it that way.
  • WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    I wish for intermittent wipers and cruise control in my 96 Toyota. Heck, I wish for electric wipers in my 61 Sunliner.
• snow_mac 3y ago
  I like a big display with buttons on the side. I like getting to see the song name, the station and some of that digital info, I like Apple Maps on Apple car play. Those are nice features. I love the back up camera display. But I have to have a button or knob to adjust temp, audio, next track, etc... because while those things are helpful, when I'm going down the highway and I need to adjust while paying attention jumping between screens and the road sucksssssss
  • rdiddly 3y ago
    Yeah seems like physical controls for input, screen for output is the sweet spot.
    • hunter2_ 3y ago
      It'll be interesting to see how Android Auto / Apple Car Play adopt physical controls, if at all. I guess at a basic level a rotary encoder could emulate a "tab" key when rotated and an "enter" key when pushed (keyboard support already exists in the mobile OS, of course). Until then, at least they have great voice input.
      • nkrisc 3y ago
        Car Play in my Mazda3 works just great with the knob control. I much prefer it than the touch-only controls in my Forester. In fact I’d go so far as to say it’s the best physical option. For example, when I’m listening to a podcast I can turn the knob to highlight the skip forward button, and leave it there. Then when adds come on I can just feel for and press the knob without looking at the screen. In the Forester I have to awkwardly hold my arm out, breaking my hand with my thumb while I try to hit the right button. Usually I don’t bother because it feels too unsafe. You can change what the forward/back buttons on the steering wheel do, such as changing them to skip, but then I’m In the same situation when I want to go to the next podcast or skip a few.
      • kyralis 3y ago
        Apple's Car Play has supported that from the beginning, since many of the first adopter cars didn't actually have touch screens, just screens.
• piuantiderp 3y ago
  Bigger pet peeve, cars today are made for hunched over people. The headrest just a ridiculous amount out from the back
• StillBored 3y ago
  Its just bad UI, companies in the past tested their products and solicited feedback before casting it in stone. Be that OS vendors, or car manufactures. I'm not sure where to lay the blame, but maybe a lot of it has to do with modern CAD, etc which allows most of the design to be done virtually before anyone actually tries it out. So its not just an argument of touchscreens vs buttons, its how you interact with those buttons too. My pet peve as a driver of a car that still has a _key_ is that pretty much all the automakers have standardized on a single start button to reflect a state machine with 4+ distinct states and the process for transitioning between the states varies slightly from vehicle to vehicle. And now you might have to differentiate between short pushes and long pushes, and spend a moment considering what state its in before performing it. A tactile knob with off-acc-on would probably be just fine but wouldn't have been as "cool" and costs $.10 more a car.
  • aardvarkr 3y ago
    Lay the blame on the buyer. These things get focus group tested out the wazoo. They don’t care as much about the actual user experience but they sure do care about what the buyer thinks about it at the time of purchase. Unfortunately these touchscreens look incredibly slick and hyper modern in the show room, even if their usability sucks. I can’t deny that the first time that I saw the Tesla touchscreen I was super impressed and thought it looked sexy.
    • StillBored 3y ago
      maybe they need a couple curmudgeons in their focus groups then.
  • kshacker 3y ago
    > Its just bad UI, companies in the past tested their products and solicited feedback before casting it in stone. I think touch screen has changed the landscape. The rapid development of touch user interfaces has put a tremendous pressure on car companies with time to market needs and they somehow got misled into thinking that they can do the same with "we can fix it in the software" mentality. Wish it was that easy.
• every 3y ago
  Driving itself is an analog activity. Turn a wheel. Press a pedal. Check a mirror. Glance at a gauge. Judge a distance. No place amongst all that for fiddling with a touch screen. Voice commands may be another matter, however...
• BulgarianIdiot 3y ago
  Sanity at last
• tricksforfree 3y ago
  Question for car owners with massive screens in the console who live in rural areas: Does the ambient interior light from the screen + dashboard overpower your ability to see the road at night?
  • inconceivable 3y ago
    i live in a city but drive through rural areas all the time. if the lowest dimmer setting on your screen and dash are still too bright compared to your headlights, there's something wrong with your headlights. incandescent bulbs fade after some time and need to be replaced before they actually burn out.
  • zamnos 3y ago
    Depends on exactly which model from which manufacturer. Cadillac has night vision on some of their vehicles, far superior to straining to see in the dark.
• klyrs 3y ago
  Please recall my car, the touchscreen is a hazard to me and everybody else.
• DecoPerson 3y ago
  Spinny-dial-based input, with the dial located just behind the shifter (just in front of where the cupholders usually are), is the best input method developed for cars so far. The forces the UI to be a flat list in terms of navigation (rather than a 2d-space-filling UX mess). And being a flat 1d list, it encourages the list be short, which means more submenus, which is good! If menus are consistent, you can mostly control without taking your eyes off the road. Apple CarPlay already works with this input method.
  • uzername 3y ago
    This is how Mazda handles the screen. The knob has a satisfying tick on rotation and rebound when pressed. The car's a little older now and the screen os is a bit slow, but usually keeps up with input. Radio and navigation have hard button shortcuts. It's just a good system.
  • stronglikedan 3y ago
    Acura's trackpad is nice, too. My previous one had a dial that also moved directionally, as well as pushed in, and that worked well.
  • wand3r 3y ago
    i think this is subjective, i drove my moms car with this setup (mazda suv) to NY last weekend. I would NEVER buy a car like this. Touch screen for apple carplay is in my opinion the obvious best setup and the most intuitive interface. You can use your phone or the touch screen on the dashboard. Using a dial to navigate on the screen felt like 2003 UX on some hybrid palm pilot/blackberry. Extremely dangerous for me and even if I got used to it, I couldnt imagibe how poking the Map icon would be more dangerouss/slower than using a literal dial while staring at the screen for highlighting as I round robin search through 2-3 inputs...
    • bullfightonmars 3y ago
      I think this is mostly a design problem for Carplay to solve support for dial and button controls could be much better.
• tapvt 3y ago
  I replaced the stereo in my ‘05 Tacoma with a new, touchscreen-with-CarPlay head unit. I hate not having a physical volume knob. I do love the modern features. But hunting for that volume up/down button for a maddening while driving and unsafe.
  • bottlepalm 3y ago
    All new cars have a volume button on the steering wheel, even Tesla.
• stronglikedan 3y ago
  I love my trackpad in my Acura. I was hesitant at first, but after getting used to it, I think it's a great compromise.
• danielvaughn 3y ago
  It will always amuse me that anyone thought this was a good idea. Like everyone looked at the iPhone and thought "hey yeah let's put that _everywhere_". Put it on thermostats, put it in cars, heck let's put it on a friggin space shuttle. Absolute insanity.
• NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  The cab company I use has a touchscreen and POS for use by passengers, as is customary. Cab drivers often try to reach around back and manipulate the POS for me, which I detest. They are not supposed to be touching that, especially when I am deciding their tip for them. Anyway, the touchscreen, upon flag drop, immediately invites you to tap it thrice if you are vision-impaired, to activate an accessible voice interface. I did this once, and it apparently disabled the POS and we could't figure out how to pay my fare. Never again!
• andrewmcwatters 3y ago
  I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally regulated to not fail response time tests, and if they do, they should be deemed unlawful to be equipped by either the manufacturer or the owner. It's absolutely ridiculous that this still happens today, and it doesn't have to. So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. You've just removed one problem.
  • gumballindie 3y ago
    > these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms Oh my sweet summer child. If only it was the developer's fault and not their managers pushing ridiculous deadlines.
  • husamia 3y ago
    it's going to require a completely new type of hardware and software system from scratch. I don't think Tesla did that but they could have.
  • sizzle 3y ago
    Developers or cost optimizing MBAs? What developer would advocate for slower touchscreen response time at the expense of having a good UX if money was of no issue?
    • tekla 3y ago
      Developers. Engineers seemed to have no issue with making interfaces and systems that work in cars before the touchscreen fad.
      • rdez6173 3y ago
        Nope. Greed. It costs way more to build out physical ergonomic interior controls when they are permanent fixtures for several model years and any changes require new physical elements to be created and fit (and designed for mass production). Software can be updated over the air, so there's less pressure on engineers to get it perfect. The solution is not to point fingers and guess, but instead measure and revise. Study the amount of time drivers' eyes are off the road for routine tasks, develop acceptable limits and enforce them. Software engineers of any ilk are just as capable of following sensible guidelines if everyone else in the company is obliged to as well.
• IAmPym 3y ago
  I don't think automakers ever thought drivers LIKED touch screens, it was just so much cheaper that someone saw the margins and decided to go for it. When we design synthesizers, the MAJORITY of the cost is in the UI. People need the UI because our industry is all about gestures and mastery. You cannot master when you have a large screen that is not consistent and requires too much interaction. Musicians would call this a feeling of 'menu-diving' which is almost the worst thing you can say to describe a synth. There are actually some technological advances here where you can create buttons in a touch screen (convex or concave) which does help with some of the issues here, but it isn't cheap enough to be an alternative yet. I need to find the links for those
• ChancyChance 3y ago
  I've always been baffled how the standards for what is INSIDE and ECU is far more strict than outside. Functional Safety ASIL MISRA ASPICE ISO 21434 ISO 26262 Yet ... touchscreens.
• thathndude 3y ago
  Getting really tired of this conclusion. I love my touch screens. Please don’t take them away!
• deostroll 3y ago
  Is no one irked by some capitalistic policies/monopoly by giant corporations? For e.g. you ask the voice assistant to play a song, it will deny that request saying that you need to buy their "premium" offering first. Another fact is that voice integration to other apps which are not of the same vendor as that of the phone is virtually non-existent.
• sircastor 3y ago
  I’m a former infotainment engineer. Touchscreens made it possible to make modern technologies available, and make them accessible in the car to people. If this results in car makers ditching touchscreens, people will get mad that they can’t use CarPlay like they used to. In my experience, most people who have driven their car for ages can’t use the buttons on their center console without looking at them. Maybe the volume control… As an experiment, I challenge you to draw a picture of your car’s center console from memory. See how much of it you get right. This isn’t to say that physical buttons aren’t any better than touchscreens, but I think people romanticize how effective they are with their cars interface.
  • wlesieutre 3y ago
    I can do all of mine: three knobs are vent selection, fan speed, and temperature, three buttons below those are AC, defrost, and recirculate. Don’t know every vent knob position, but the first (upper vents), second (adds floor vents), and last (defrost) are the important ones. I couldn’t do the aftermarket Bluetooth radio, but the only buttons I use there are prev/next, plus the volume knob.
  • stainforth 3y ago
    Was response time of the screen analyzed at all? Just the screen itself, not what any of the functions a press would trigger.
• munificent 3y ago
  I'm surprised the article didn't mention one of the key regulations that led to this as an unintended consequence: By law, cars in the US must now have a back-up camera. That means every car must have a screen. Given that, automakers figured they may as well use the damn thing for everything else too and cut costs. It wasn't just that they wanted to take away tactile controls to save money. It was that they had to make room in there for the screen anyway, so they figured they'd make the most of it.
  • overgard 3y ago
    Eh, those backup cameras are super useful though, and the screen can be small. My 2013 Kia has mostly physical buttons and like an 8 inch or so touchscreen (that I never touch). I would hate losing that camera. Plus those screens can be useful for safety. I much prefer the screen on my dashboard for maps compared to having it on my phone (even with a mount it's bouncy and small)
    • bushbaba 3y ago
      But a small screen feels 'cheap' and for many ruins that car's experience.
      • thebiss 3y ago
        Automotive screens sizes are small because they must exceed vibration and temperature tolerances of other devices, which drives up cost. Unlike an iPad, in-car screens need to work from ~0F to ~130F every day, because the back-up camera MUST work. When Tesla introduced giant screens, then ran into problems with panels not being "automotive grade." See: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19905299
      • anon3242 3y ago
        A large screen with bad UI design would feel cheaper. With physical buttons and knobs, you can have finishes and smooth tactile feedbacks that make them feel luxurious. However with touchscreen UIs it is extremely hard to make it feel polished and high-quality, almost perfectly balancing efficiency and aesthetics, like apple used to do.
• chrisbrandow 3y ago
  I can’t be more hopeful that this is true.
• 1letterunixname 3y ago
  When (not if) the touchscreen goes out, large swaths of functionality become useless. Physical controls are simpler UX.
• brandonagr2 3y ago
  Is the entire premise of this article based on an intentional misunderstanding of JD Power saying "J.D. Power sees an average of 49.9 PP100 for infotainment-related items, including issues with voice-recognition systems, smartphone connectivity, and Bluetooth connection difficulties" Which might argue that drivers hate bad interfaces that most automakers are notorious for, but doesn't talk about touchscreens as an interface specifically.
• hkatx 3y ago
  I like mazda approach to their infotainment. The initial boot is slow(2019 model new one may have faster boots), but once it loads, i am very happy with the way it works. Once the car is running or over a certain speed, the touch functionality of the touch screen is disabled. The rotary dial that is easy to reach can be used to do all the functions I need on my infotainment. HVAC are physical buttons as well as volume is a physical knob. Once I got used to the rotary dial, I never needed to touch the screen again.
• crazymoka 3y ago
  They should have a nice balance of both. You can run an entire touch screen UI with the dial nob like the Genesis use in the centre console. I can do everything from the "spinning button" without really having to take my eyes off the road.
• throwfaraway9 3y ago
  Now just wait until they realize how most people feel about electric cars.
  • rc_kas 3y ago
    I would buy one if the controls were simple enough. I do not want an android with wheels though.
• cflynnus 3y ago
  I have no problem with the Tesla touchscreen. I don't want a car with physical buttons.
• ggm 3y ago
  I live with somebody who glitches many touch screens. I don't know if its fingernails, softness of touch, tremor, press time, strength, hesitency, its just not a good experience for them. Ever. They are the best driver. By far. Distance separation, 3-cars ahead aware, road wise, maintains situational awareness. They got driving. I do the touch screen shit. Its voice activated, let my fingers do the walkin' Seriously if they could get a car with only mecha buttons and knobs they'd be significantly better off. Otherwise, it's down to the co-pilot for that stuff, Driver's got drivin eyes for the road, no time to waste on touch screen.
  • WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > They are the best driver. By far. Distance separation, 3-cars ahead aware, road wise, maintains situational awareness. They got driving. Do they avoid participating in rolling roadblocks? When at a traffic light and at the front of the right-lane - do they pull to the left to allow folks behind to make their right on red? This is how a True Master drives. The rest of us schlubs can only realize our lesser skills.
• yotamoron 3y ago
  Finally, some sense. Personally, I want a car with as little interaction as possible. Sometimes I feel like a machine operator and not just a driver, especially when it's raining or when I need to defrost the windshield - constant hassling with whatever just to make things work. How the hell is this progress? I want a car that does all the simple things for me - turn on the wipers at the right speed when its raining, defrost the windshield, knows when to heat/cool the car etc etc. You know - just learn me and do it. This recent (10+ years) idea of adding more and more levers and buttons and cool screens to a car, to a point where it looks like an F-15 cockpit, might appeal to under-developed young males, but I really had enough. When I was younger, when you got into a new car, it took 2 minutes before you understood everything that needs to be understood and could safely driver with it. Now days you have to spend 10-15 minutes just to understand how to release the parking brake.
• bigmattystyles 3y ago
  I feel vindicated in a high school argument I had 25 years ago that the controls on the Star Trek Next Generation shuttlecrafts (and I guess the helm of the enterprise itself) would have been awful, especially in combat situations. In defense of the show, it must have felt like such a valid reason to make set design cheaper.
• 1-6 3y ago
  I like tactile buttons when I'm focusing on the road. Looking away from the road to see if I have my finger in the correct place on a screen is much more costly from an attention standpoint. I thought this was obvious. Why are we stating it? Here's where things can get interesting. If you've ever used a fancy audio mixer before, they pack a lot of features into a board with a few buttons and sliders. Cars can do similarly with controls for rolling, sliding, and pressing but dynamically adjust based on what's on the display.
• teo_zero 3y ago
  Let's be clear: the Porsche Cayenne 2024 is still the deathly oversized SUV it used to be, just a tiny bit less so because they put buttons back in one specific spot!
• irrational 3y ago
  I recently drove a 2020 rental with a touchscreen 3,500 miles. The touchscreen was okay because the car had physical controls for all the things you might want to fiddle with while driving, like A/C. I had the touchscreen set to navigation the whole time, so I didn’t really fiddle with it.
• ssalka 3y ago
  I feel compelled to share a video, now 9 years old, that shows how touch screens could be accommodated with sensible design in cars. The UIs we are used to on our phones are not suitable for driving, but we could make something that is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbuk3jizGM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbuk3jizGM
  • strix_varius 3y ago
    This looks horrible to use to me.
• mrfumier 3y ago
  I think the vision of many car makers (Tesla at least) is self-driving and voice commands. In that context, the question touch screen vs physical buttons doesn't matter.
  • nixass 3y ago
    > (Tesla at least) is self-driving Oh yeah.. how's that going?
    • mrfumier 3y ago
      Quite good https://insideevs.com/news/623469/tesla-fsd-beta-no-safety-score-required/ https://insideevs.com/news/623469/tesla-fsd-beta-no-safety-s...
• awill88 3y ago
  Does anyone else feel the timing is somewhat suspicious? I don’t know a single conversation I’ve had with anyone literally bitchin about how much they despise not having a button. PITA sure, but feels oddly close to all this supply chain stuff.. I’m probably nuts here..
• jillesvangurp 3y ago
  I think there are maybe also a fair bit of car manufacturers that are simply rushing old converted ICE models with a battery to market that also really suck at doing anything with software (like VW). It's easier for them to do what they have been doing for decades than do something new. It's not so much that they don't like touch screens but that they lack the ability to develop good software for them. Particularly most manufacturers mentioned in the article. As for dangerous trends and Tesla, they do have excellent safety related metrics. There's very little evidence of their cars being more dangerous. The opposite actually.
  • bombolo 3y ago
    No amount of UX genius can make a touchscreen visible when the sun is glaring on it. For the Teslas records, it might be because they're exclusively used for short urban trips.
    • bottlepalm 3y ago
      The roof, back and back side windows on a Tesla are tinted, how are you getting screen glare? I've never had that issue.
      • concordDance 3y ago
        I expect the person you're replying to is speculating rather than speaking from experience. People tend to opine a lot more on Teslas than other cars when they haven't driven them.
      • bombolo 3y ago
        The first part of your comment didn't mention tesla. It was just about the records of accidents that you mentioned tesla. I can only know what you write, not what you had intended to write.
• josefrichter 3y ago
  Every designer knows this. It’s fascinating that automakers’ designers seemingly don’t.
• jimnotgym 3y ago
  Well the market is failing again... Manufacturers continue to push unsafe changes on us, as well as infuriating changes, to save money. The comments here are full of people complaining about it... Time for more regulation. Tactile buttons, reasonable response time. How about some actual qualifications for people working in this field? We have Chartered Engineers, Accountants etc. Why not software engineers?
• egberts1 3y ago
  Always hated touchscreen. As a deaf driver, I hate taking my eyes off of the road to access the dashboard panel, ESPECIALLY if the panel has no definitive ridge, bumps, switch nor knobs.
• szundi 3y ago
  Not me though. Model X is awesome. The index stick is missing though, lol.
• rkagerer 3y ago
  Good. Give me a space shuttle dashboard worth of buttons, knobs, levers and switches. I'd love a Play/Pause button that's always in the same spot, a clock that never disappears, temperature and volume dials I can turn without looking, etc.
• egberts1 3y ago
  Even US Navy prohibits touchscreens on weapon systems and radars. Slapping your ship bow from the crest might likely press the wrong coordinate or fire button instead.
  • klabb3 3y ago
    Someone should do a skit where military UIs are all replaced by current consumer-tech UIs, along with its dark patterns. That’d actually be hilarious.
    • egberts1 3y ago
      https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49319450.amp
      • egberts1 3y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/6kic0j/til_that_in_1998_a_us_navy_warship_became_dead_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/6kic0j/til_t...
    • elcritch 3y ago
      This scene close enough? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDLvUqhwHZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDLvUqhwHZc
• robomartin 3y ago
  Anyone who thinks touchscreens are a good idea for cars should somehow be given the task of driving an operating a car at 200 mph (320 kph) while messing with it. Maybe in a full aircraft-style motion simulator. Or, better yet, on the Nurburgring. I can't think of a single racecar with a touchscreen for any control the driver must interact with while driving. And these are trained, experienced professional drivers. Auto makers want Grandma to keep the car on the road while messing with a touchscreen!? Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes F1 cars would be a pile of smoldering carbon fiber almost instantly if the drivers had to use touchscreens. They would be impossible to drive.
• checkyoursudo 3y ago
  With. A. Passion. Other touch screens (or similar things) I dislike: - the controls on my stove top - the controls on my monitor - the controls on my tv - the controls on my thermostat - probably more All of these should have physical buttons for the limited number of functions required. Or, at a minimum, for navigation and confirmation. Touch screens there suck. My wife's car has a touch screen on the control/infotainment center whatever it's called (where the radio is), and a few physical buttons on the steering wheel. There are two clocks: one on the control center, and one in the main dashboard display. The dashboard clock is controlled by the buttons (just one for menu nav and one for confirm selection) is super simple and frustration-free to change. The touch-screen controlled one is a shitty pain the ass. By far the worst though is my touch-controlled stove top. Just give me some damned knobs.
  • Poppys 3y ago
    How often are you changing the clock?
    • dmonitor 3y ago
      at least twice a year. more often if traveling across time zones.
  • bjarneh 3y ago
    > - the controls on my stove top How were these stove-top touch-buttons ever considered an upgrade to their predecessor? They always have no feedback, or that annoyingly high "beep" feedback. They are always slow to respond. They typically use only two or three buttons to control the actual temperature, forcing you to select location first, which is typically slow and terrible as well. Nobody in their right mind can prefer these to the good old separate knobs which we used to have; which my relatively new stove still has (they still exist luckily). I'll add a link to the one I have, for others looking for stove's without the annoying touch controls. https://www.bosch-home.no/produktliste/komfyr-ovn-platetopp-og-ventilator/frittstaaende-komfyrer/komfyrer-med-keramisk-platetopp/HKA010020U#/Tabs=section-technical-overview/Togglebox=manuals/Togglebox=accessories/ https://www.bosch-home.no/produktliste/komfyr-ovn-platetopp-...
• martindbp 3y ago
  Yes, tactile buttons are better for the user. But that won't matter in the long run as cars become more and more autonomous. Tesla's FSD for instance is far from perfect (and MobilEye will bring this to other brands), but when not actively controlling the vehicle 99% of the time, tactile buttons vs touchscreens becomes much less of an issue.
  • oblio 3y ago
    1. You do know that other car manufacturers have more advanced and more reliable driver's assistance than Tesla's fake FSD, right? MobilEye or not. 2. We could be 50 years away from universal real FSD.
    • martindbp 3y ago
      Define "more advanced"? Besides perhaps MobilEye's SuperVision there is no ADAS as advanced in terms of what it can do, if you believe otherwise you need a reality check. Reliability? Sure, Mercedes has their famed L3 in stop and go traffic, in good weather, if the road doesn't curve too much. FSD, if you use it, takes over your driving 99% of the time, which is why I'm saying tactile buttons or not is just not that important at that point. It might not make sense to switch back to buttons if cars of all brands will have their own version of FSD in a few years. 2. I very much doubt that, but even if there is no "true" L4 FSD in a consumer vehicle anytime soon, this thread is about tactile buttons and my points still stands.
      • oblio 3y ago
        There are at least a few reviews that put Tesla's stuff behind GM's SuperCruise and a few other driver assist systems.
        • martindbp 3y ago
          Here's the thing about reviews and the media: anything negative about Tesla gets clicks, that's why every single accident involving a Tesla makes headlines. Another factor is that most auto companies pay for advertising in the media while Tesla so far has not, biasing reviews and coverage in favor of the companies that are paying the bills. But that may sound too conspiratorial for you, but how about just observing the current state of FSD, here's the first video of you search YouTube: https://youtu.be/JhmlKKVOWfI https://youtu.be/JhmlKKVOWfI Many times when I've had these discussions with people it boils down to misunderstandings of what Autopilot is vs FSD, or just impressions based on the tech 3 years ago. FSD is far from L4 but it's in a very advanced state compared to other ADAS systems.
• bloak 3y ago
  Another thing I hate: user interfaces in which the visual/audible feedback is independent of whether the input has taken effect. This is distressingly common. Even self-checkout tills in supermarkets do this. For example, you touch a button on the screen, and it changes colour briefly, seemingly to indicate that the button press has been registered, but then nothing happens and you have to press the button again to get your receipt printed or whatever. This is the more common case, but sometimes with the same device you also have the button press taking effect without the visual feedback. I think I observed full independence of feedback and effect with a physical button on a microwave oven: when you attempted to press the button you sometimes got a beep, and the time sometimes got incremented by 10 s, or perhaps 20 s, and sometimes you'd get both those things, and sometimes you'd get just one of them. It must take real skill to design an appliance with a physical button that "works" like that, but some genius engineer managed to do it. I hope that person never gets a job in the car industry.
• known 3y ago
  [dead]
• vinay_ys 3y ago
  Any controls that's not on the steering wheel is a distraction. If there are very few buttons or dials for very simple/standard/common functions on the centre dash, that's okay. Anything more is definitely not safe to operate in a busy and fast moving traffic situations. All the touch-screen stuff is only safe to operate in very slow-moving traffic jam situations.
  • bdavbdav 3y ago
    I'd disagree in the case of well engineered iDrive / MMI style controllers. I can operate a lot of the iDrive without looking, and certain controls (radio presets etc) show on the high mounted screen which button you're hovering over so you dont need to look at the button itself.
• emrah 3y ago
  When I had mentioned these issues to friends years ago when touchscreens were just starting to come out, I was criticized as being stuck in my old ways. I'm glad people are finally catching on. :)))
• docorc 3y ago
  Cars can use a single button to activate most of the controls by using Android Auto/Apple/Tesla style voice commands so they do not have to visually do it on touchscreen.
• fergie 3y ago
  "Pedestrian and cyclist fatalities recently hit their highest levels in 40 years" I wonder if the various self driving technologies have anything to do with this?
• DonHopkins 3y ago
  >“These screens are presented as this avant garde, minimalist design,” The idiotic trend of applying Jony Ive's minimalist iPad user interface designs to automotive touchscreen kills people. It pointlessly distracts from the primary purpose of designing user-friendly, intuitive, safe automotive touchscreens. Jony Ive Spearheads Minimalist Design Overhaul For iOS: https://bitrebels.com/technology/jony-ive-minimalist-design-ios/ https://bitrebels.com/technology/jony-ive-minimalist-design-... Guide: The Art of Minimalism in UI Design: https://sympli.io/blog/the-art-of-minimalism-in-ui-design https://sympli.io/blog/the-art-of-minimalism-in-ui-design Jony Ive's minimalist designs could reshape the future of iOS, OS X: https://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/30/jony-ives-minimalist-designs-could-reshape-the-future-of-ios-os-x https://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/30/jony-ives-minimal... The Art of Minimalism in Mobile App UI Design: https://uxplanet.org/the-art-of-minimalism-in-mobile-app-ui-design-b21aa671dd7f https://uxplanet.org/the-art-of-minimalism-in-mobile-app-ui-... More practical less vain interface designers are finally calling for an end to this terrible trend in minimalist interface design on mobile devices, but it never should have been applied to automotive interfaces in the first place, and there is already lots of blood on the hands of cocaine-addled cargo-cult iPad interface designers mindlessly aping John Ive while working on automotive interfaces. The designer behind one of the iPad’s biggest apps is calling for an end to minimalism: https://www.fastcompany.com/90604970/the-designer-behind-one-of-the-ipads-biggest-apps-is-calling-for-an-end-to-minimalism https://www.fastcompany.com/90604970/the-designer-behind-one... The point of designing automotive touchscreen user interfaces is not to show off to the world what a brilliant sensitive snowflake of a minimalist avant garde artistic designer you are. It's not about designing beautiful enigmatic minimal screens uncluttered by pesky visual clues, signifiers, and affordances, more suited to be hung on the walls of art museums for patrons to stare at and interpret and argue over their ambiguous meaning in their leisure time. The art-first, safety-last trend of prioritizing aesthetics over usability in automotive interfaces should be outlawed, because it has a fatal impact in driver safety, that kills people.
• riverdweller 3y ago
  Tesla unilaterally decided to push out a refactored UI to my old Model S a few months ago, changing the location of numerous functions to new sub-menu paths, and rendering years of muscle memory useless. Not only do I have to re-learn where everything is, but older memories interfere and confuse every time I try to access an infrequently used function. This experience has been irritating at best. It has felt extremely unsafe on more than one occasion.
  • dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    The phone and desktop OS user experience has now infected cars. "We must change things otherwise our work is not visible."
    • CatWChainsaw 3y ago
      IMO, if their work is visible, they did it wrong.
  • 93po 3y ago
    I'd recommend focusing on driving instead of messing with settings if it feels extremely unsafe.
• dustymcp 3y ago
  Why cant it turn off, mine blinds me during nighttime drive, its so bad i took out a jumper so it doesnt work anymore..
• neom 3y ago
  Relevant from last month: Hyundai promises to keep buttons in cars -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253753
• nologic01 3y ago
  There is plenty of room on a car's dashboard to separate the vital, tactile, muscle memory UI from the informative, visual, reconfigurable, and essentially optional UI. Touchscreen craze is a suboptimal choice not out of some serious constraint. What the article points at is just another manifestation of market arrangements (the relative power of manufacturers versus the information and power of consumers) that are slow to generate the counterwailing forces needed to correct course. A decade of excess accidents here, a decade of screen addiction there and pretty soon you talk about serious negative impact.
• gambiting 3y ago
  And yet VW is going balls to the wall and just announced that the ID.7 will feature even more touchscreen integration, with removal of all physical shortcut buttons. They are literally insane. I know someone who is getting rid of their brand new MK8 golf over this, the controls are downright unusable. Every review of id3/4/5 mentions this as a major negative, yet VW just sticks their fingers in their ears and goes "lalalalalalalala can't hear you".
• kmarc 3y ago
  A bit off topic but I enjoyed reading the conversation here from people with different perception / opinion about touch vs button. I'm more on the button side of the argument, but that's not the point. I rather wonder how many years from now would I think back of these arguments as some "could have happened in the past but now it's absolutely irrelevant", as autonomous cars* would take over, and human-driven ones would be lawfully banned on 99% of the roads*, as horse carriages are banned today compared to 100 years ago. * or their future equivalents
  • DeathArrow 3y ago
    > I rather wonder how many years from now would I think back of these arguments as some "could have happened in the past but now it's absolutely irrelevant", as autonomous cars* would take over, and human-driven ones would be lawfully banned on 99% of the roads, as horse carriages are banned today compared to 100 years ago. I wonder if software will first check the subscription and social credit before starting the car. If you are in a remote area without mobile network coverage, then tough luck.
    • kmarc 3y ago
      Oh, good one! When I say autonomous, I truly mean autonomous, in the sense that for the basic functionality (go around, authenticate, communicate with the rest of the cars) the system would not need to be centralized at all. No Internet connection needed.
• vrglvrglvrgl 3y ago
  [dead]
• fuzzy2 3y ago
  I like touchscreens. They’re great for some types of operation, like selecting a destination from the map (not by entering an address). Or for entering text using an on-screen keyboard (when a physical keyboard is not available). So yes, cars should have touchscreens! However, this is all stuff you wouldn’t do while driving. So while driving, you need something else: physical controls. I believe BMW’s iDrive knob is the best solution. It’s so good, other manufacturers copied it. So yes, cars should also have physical buttons! Also, physical buttons must not be touch surfaces. They must be actual mechanical physical buttons. My EV has capacitive buttons on the steering wheel. They’re horrible.
• KingOfCoders 3y ago
  Driving a BMW X3 recently and a Tesla Model Y, I want a compromise. The Tesla had to few buttons (but I'd keep the display, though HUD is nicer) and the BMW had to many buttons and the display felt 1990. (Also it was so much easier to find settings in the Tesla)
• spullara 3y ago
  OMG the world is full of whiners these days. Glancing at a touch screen doesn't kill you. It is people looking at their phones in their hands for minutes at a time.
• toby3d 3y ago
  The main advantage of physical buttons compared to touch screens: you can't put ads in them. I immediately imagine a situation in a new car where the steering wheel has been replaced with a screen[1] and right as you drive, "you can regain control after watching this short five-second commercial". [1]: https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1646181161037713414 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1646181161037713414
• feintruled 3y ago
  I wonder if we will go back to the Star Trek paradigm, where everything is big chunky buttons and anything complex is initiated by voice control to a computer that understands you perfectly. (TOS of course, TNG went all in on touch screens).
• kwhitefoot 3y ago
  I don't. My Model S has a good combination of physical and virtual controls, all the things I need to control the car are on the steering column, the less frequently used things are on the touch screen and voice recognition. The latency is also good. But from what I have heard about many other vehicles with touch interfaces not all cars are so well designed
• atoav 3y ago
  As an hardware guy with a love for good interfaces I can only say: told ya so (ca. 5 years ago). Touch screens can be nice for a lot of things, but sometimes actual haptic feedback and positional consistency is worth more than the flexibility gained. Especially in devices or machines we interact with multiple hours a day, where flexibility isn't the point. E.g. a tablet using a touch screen makes a lot of sense, as that flexibility makes sense here. But it makes less sense in a car, except maybe for the entertainment system and even there actual physical switches, dials and levers can be superiour in terms of usability. What I love are really nice things like motor faders on upper class mixing desks. You have a physical interface that can follow whatever digital state you have stored, it is just perfect. There is a future in devices that combine screens, physical dials, levers and latches with haptic feedback, e.g. like this amazing project: https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob (A dial with a motor and a screen, which allows for virtual "limits" and dedents)
• liendolucas 3y ago
  Screens in cars are completely unnecessary, we have been driving without them for 80 or 90 years. You don't really want to get distracted when driving. Car makers are putting entertainment systems in front of drivers. I'm shocked that no government hasn't stepped in and regulated its push. People are already looking at mobile phones while driving despite being told that is extremely dangerous to do so and on top of that we also now have theaters on 4 wheels.
• bearmode 3y ago
  Touchscreens are great for controlling my maps, and my music. For the love of fuck, don't control anything else with them.
• DeathArrow 3y ago
  What are some car makers who offer now buttons over touch screen interfaces? I plan to change my car in one year and I would like one with buttons on the dashboard.
  • Hendrikto 3y ago
    The article mentions Nissan, Hyundai, VW, and Porsche.
• arethuza 3y ago
  One thing I find weird is that on my Skoda the "infotainment" screen is fairly laggy - particularly when starting up. However, the "virtual cockpit" screen responds instantly - even though what it displays looks more complex than the infotainment screen. Mind you the "virtual cockpit" isn't a touchscreen and button only (mostly on steering wheel).
• 0xbadc0de5 3y ago
  Or if you're going to insist on a touchscreen, perhaps add some tactile feedback mechanism. Smartphones figured this out years ago.
• VBprogrammer 3y ago
  Our car has a decent sized touch screen and I think it's great. I can browse Spotify rather whatever CD I left in the car 3 years ago, I can use Google maps rather than the rubbish build in navigation, I can set the clock to BST without getting the manual out etc. However, none of the cars primary controls are on the touch screen. Air-conditioned, volume, gear selector, menus for range and fuel consumption all have physical buttons.
  • perlgeek 3y ago
    That's the optimal solution, IMHO. You don't want to enter an address in the navigation system with buttons or a scroll wheel, that's just horrible. So you still need that touchscreen, but hopefully not while driving, or only very rarely so. All the functions that you often need while driving should be accessible with buttons or other forms of UI that give you tactile feedback, and which you don't have to see to engage.
• omgomgomgomg 3y ago
  Drove a bmw 2 series last week, you have to move forward ypur whole upper body to touch the screen, theres no way to reach the screen without getting into a very unsafe position. Am 6ft. Bmw used to do ergonomics and ui very well, what a disappointment.
• jeisc 3y ago
  the real question to ask here is did they ever put touchscreens in F1 race cars?
• zx10rse 3y ago
  Controls from touch screens should be banned. There is a reason why your cognitive memory performs far superior with physical buttons and knobs. There is a reason why formula 1 car steering wheel is full with buttons, not a touch screen. There are plenty of well established UX laws, and principles form 60's like Hick's law Fitt's law and so on. Plenty of studies of failures, because of bad UX. Every time I see tesla model 3 with that big screen, and not only model 3, I cringe so hard. Screens should be integrated in cockpits. Software should enhance the experience not add more cognitive load. I sometimes wonder do they even hire UX specialists or UI designers in those companies.
• popey 3y ago
  I've had an EV for a year now (a Mini). It has a touch screen, but also has a bunch of buttons. I almost never use the touchscreen as a result, and when I do, it'a annoying. Typing addresses into the navigation system is painful, even for the passenger, while driving. The various buttons and wheels which augment the touchscreen are way more usable.
• uf00lme 3y ago
  Blackberry. If you know, you know.
• trollied 3y ago
  I can move my left hand down to leg height, and feel 4 buttons and a jog dial (and that's for things that aren't on the steering wheel). I know what all of them do. I don't need to look. The menus are at eye level so I don't need to look away from the road. This sort of thing should not be changed to touchscreens.
• elif 3y ago
  Hard disagree here. I went from touchscreen only (model Y) to 1960's switchboard operator (audi Q6) for a trip helping my family and it drove me insane. The number of button presses, light illumination meanings, automatic modes I had to learn to simply turn off the air conditioning was infuriating. To change the music or interact with navigation I had to click a spinny wheel and turn it like I was tabbing thru options with a keyboard. When I picked up my father and got to swap back cars, it was like a Steve Jobs moment when I voice command "open glovebox" and "i'm cold" or simply rearrange the destinations with a finger drag. I'm pretty sure they are buying a Tesla next.
  • eptcyka 3y ago
    Bad UX without touchscreens doesn't warrant viability of touchscreens in cars.
    • elif 3y ago
      The examples I gave, music and navigation, would need a full qwerty to emulate the capability of a touchscreen. But please, continue to shit on any opinion positive about Tesla.
• big_paps 3y ago
  A good mechanical UI is somewhat timeless. Touchscreens just look supercheap and tasteless in cars.
• BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  I do not think drivers hate touchscreens. I think drivers hate idiot developers and their idiot management. First the touchscreens' esthetics are in the 90's. Then the touchscreens' performance are in the 90's Third the management strategy is to piss off the drivers by shoving down their throats the two above. I dream of a car where I (that is me personally) can set up what I want to see. I do not give a fuck about the temperature of the engine or my EV efficiency. I want a huge digital speed meter and a smaller distance I can drive with my current fioul. And that's all. Is it that difficult to provide a default setup and then let the user choose what they want to see on their reactive touchscreen? Toyota managed in my RAV4 to create the dashboard I hate most, with passion.
  • Hendrikto 3y ago
    > I do not think drivers hate touchscreens. I do, and have spoken to many who agree.
    • berkes 3y ago
      ... and going by this thread, many, many others hate them as well. Regardless of their appearance.
    • BrandoElFollito 3y ago
      Did you ask them what they hate, exactly? The fact that there is no physical button (because they like the feeling of a physical button), or that the touchscreen buttons are not reactive enough and never show what you would like them to?
  • neogodless 3y ago
    I'm a driver and I hate touchscreens. I don't care about the aesthetics or performance, because I don't want to look at it to control it. Touchscreen control is for something you look directly at, focus on, and use as an input. That's incompatible with driving.
• blackhaz 3y ago
  I wonder what F-22/F-35 pilots think of this. I can't imagine messing with touchscreen while pulling 8-9 Gs.
• winstonprivacy 3y ago
  We were in the market last year for a new car. After test driving a few with touch screens, we decided to instead go for a barely driven 10 year old model. No touch screens and far fewer digital parts and connections which well eventually break. That cost Mercedes $150k.
• code_runner 3y ago
  I thought I would hate it but I really don’t mind mine. I like a few important buttons on the steering wheel but I always to look to remember which is which anyways. Maybe I don’t drive far enough often enough. I honestly expected to hate it but it’s made almost no difference to me.
• erfgh 3y ago
  The problem is that people love touch screens. I could never figure that out. I have always hated touch screens. They are imprecise, dirty, they inevitably hide information when you have to place your hand over them and they make packing information tightly really hard. But, people love them because they have what appears to be zero learning curve and people hate to learn even the simplest of tasks.
• azubinski 3y ago
  Has this really happened? But any BMW or Mazda driver who has both a touchscreen and a normal control field with physical buttons and knobs under his right hand knows perfectly well that a touchscreen is completely perfectly useless.
• aunterste 3y ago
  When airplane cockpits have touchscreens, they are ready for use in cars, until then...
  • berkes 3y ago
    Going by the whole Boeing (software) failure recently[1], "what airplane builders decide" isn't a perfect guideline either. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX_groundings
• ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  In case it wasn't referenced before, there was this great article, last year, about this very thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30140984 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30140984 Scott Jenson is probably one of the top UX people in the world. I hope Tesla listened to his valuable free advice. It's just as likely that Musk declared him a "pedo guy," and ignored his advice.
• meling 3y ago
  I try to not use the touchscreen while driving, but if I need to I will ensure to enable adaptive cruise control or FSD. Not perfect but helps. But we should have buttons for the most important functions at least. In terms of removing the screen, which some vendors seem to pride themselves with doesn’t seem like a good option. The larger screen is quite helpful when parking.
• steveBK123 3y ago
  It's not just the touch screens, it's the contextual menus & moving buttons from version to version (ahem, Tesla). It completely breaks your muscle memory. I had to take my car to the dealer for service and they gave me a loaner. Both my car & the loaner had physical buttons, knobs and dials in addition to touch screen (BMW iDrive). However they were different model years / models / iDrive versions so all the buttons/dials were in slightly different places. It felt like driving my Tesla again where the muscle memory is lost for adjusting HVAC/wipers/radio since suddenly moved on me. It is noticeably more distracting and less safe since you need to take eyes off the road more often, for longer. The ultimate for me is the on-wheel controls & HUD for some basic radio, nav, ADAS, speed, etc so you barely even need to look at your dashboard, let alone center touch screen.
  • davidthewatson 3y ago
    Great point, along with the top 3 comments making the case that latency and design are huge issues in a moving vehicle, because without good will, it's a weapon. Why do we cover the brake lever with the index and middle finger of the right hand on a motorcycle hurtling at barely legal speeds? Because the coming impact is the space between your fingers and the brake lever, plus reaction time. Reaction time is a function of focus, but the fact that you'll hit the stationary object in about a second at 60 MPH depending on its distance, governs everything else, save for traction. https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/fitts-s-law-the-importance-of-size-and-distance-in-ui-design#:~:text=Put%20simply%2C%20Fitts%27%20Law%20states%3A%20%22...the%20time%20to,as%20the%20size%20decreases%20selection%20again%20takes%20longer https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/fitts-.... Sadly, in UI/UX design this is well understood. For whatever reason, in the last several decades of the ascendance of design, we've not seemed to apply Fitts' Law to car driving design, presumably because cup holders. I had hope when Peter Schreyer left Audi and became one of the presidents at Kia years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schreyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schreyer However, given the current state of affairs, it's clear that cars have won the battle for our hearts and minds. The kids had a point when they stopped getting driver's licenses. Much like autonomy as a general design idea in the culture. I can only hope that we have an inflection point where the realization is that, as cars get smarter, the resultant behavior of the car is a collaboration between car and driver. That may not have been true when a car was just a mechanical object governed by physics, but it clearly is true now. We could quote any one of McLuhan, Postman, or one of their contemporaries, but while their insights portended the dark future we occupy, none of their contemporaries intended that future.
• tellitlikeitis2 3y ago
  [flagged]
• Technotroll 3y ago
  Is this possibly due to chip shortages? I supposed it's easier to produce a "legacy" switch than a touch screen? Or what am I missing here?
• phkahler 3y ago
  Another overlooked "feature" I see on GM cars. The "reverse" lights are turned on when the car is in park. Not sure why, but it's training me to partially ignore backup lights in parking lots, because they no longer mean a vehicle is going to back up.
• maxdo 3y ago
  to all antiquarian fans. Car didn't stuck in time when you got your first car. Look at the latest modern cars, it knows when the rain starts, it has climate control so you don't need to rotate hit/cooling controls. To drive to front or back car knows itself, and you don't have to switch gears every minute or two. There is no parking break, it is automatic. Modern car is much, much SIMPLER, it will be more simpler, so it's a natural direction to boost multimedia, not been a soviet era airplane.
  • oblio 3y ago
    Well, you're both right and wrong. You're right in that your main point is right. You're wrong in that modern cars are much more complex than old cars for 2 reasons: reducing pollution (besides the point for this conversation) and safety. Safety makes a car much more complex. And touch screens are apparent simplicity which reduces safety. So they're a dumb idea for cars except for multimedia, as you put it.
• HeavyStorm 3y ago
  Let me just say it: at some point I felt the industry was flooded by "UX professionals" coming from other backgrounds that knew a lot about making software look good and zero about making it usable.
  • pnt12 3y ago
    UX and usability tests are dead. It's all shiny UIs and A/B testing now (and the metric is always profit, never ease of use or safety).
• mwexler 3y ago
  Not all drivers.
• DrBazza 3y ago
  Anything that I have to look at it in a car, other than the road is a danger. I'm actually shocked that the various safety bodies in the US and Europe haven't already tried to limit the touch screen nonsense in modern cars.
• JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > NHTSA published voluntary guidance in 2013 recommending that a driver be able to complete any infotainment task with glances of under two seconds, totaling a maximum of 12 seconds. But NHTSA’s guidance had no enforcement mechanism, and carmakers have violated it with impunity. In the last two years further evidence has suggested that touchscreens represent a step backward for auto design. Drexel researchers found that infotainment systems posed a statistically significant crash risk even in the early 2010s, before carmakers added many of today’s bells and whistles. Has anyone attempted certifying a class?
• analog31 3y ago
  My family's 2020 Subaru has a touch screen. It is only for noncritical stuff -- the climate control has conventional buttons and knobs. With that said, the placement of the screen makes the rest of the controls sit much lower, so I have to look for them. I've found a "look twice" method minimizes the time that my eyes are off the road. I take one quick glance, to find the button that I want to push. Then a second quick look to actually push it. Based on complaints I've read about Subaru controls, they must have fixed a lot of problems in the latest version. It really does work nicely, though it does scold me once in a while. I love the adaptive cruise control, and I don't mind something that keeps me from falling asleep while driving.
• n_eutrino 3y ago
  Thats why i love mazda
• Unklejoe 3y ago
  Can we talk about capacitive buttons while we’re at it? Worse in every way from a usability perspective. Supposedly more reliable, yet I’ve had plenty of failures. My damn dishwasher has capacitive buttons…a dishwasher - something you use while your hands are wet like 90% of the time. Infuriating.
• eschneider 3y ago
  If I can’t operate it by feel with gloves on, I don’t want it. I usually turn off the dash lights at night to improve night vision so big displays are no good anyways. CarPlay is ok as it’ll do most of what I need by voice and if it doesn’t, it’s not critical.
• hahamrfunnyguy 3y ago
  Bought a 2023 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. The software UX is so bad and the car's systems are so buggy. One example is that if you don't shut the door all the way and shift into drive you get a beeping sound and a big red message that says SHIFT [p] into range I don't understand what that means. Is it telling me to put the car back into park? Why not just say the door is open? My '05 Subaru had lights on the dashboard that showed each door that was open - a really sensible way of indicating what to do without having to read anything.
  • salamander014 3y ago
    My wife has a 2022 VW. If the door is not closed and you shift into drive, you also get a very loud annoying beep and visuals. Not only that, the brakes engage and the car LOCKS ITSELF IN PARK AND DOES NOT LET YOU DRIVE EVEN THOUGH THE SHIFTER IS IN ‘D’!!! I pray the door sensor doesnt fail while driving on the highway, or theres never a situation that arises where the car needs to be driven regardless of the door being open. On top of that, the door locks /trunk locks act very strange while the engine is running /driver door is open. Still dont have that figured out. I’ve suggested that we don’t purchase another VW.
• notorandit 3y ago
  > The 2024 Porsche Cayenne. The 2023 model had touchscreens on the steering wheel. It depends on where you out them. Touchscreens on steering wheel seems a big thinko to me.
• martyvis 3y ago
  Such a great article. My current car, a 2018 Subaru Outback, has an infotainment touch screen, that I use, but it really isn't that much better than the older button controls on my 2007 Toyota Landcruiser. I'm glad in both cars control of cabin air is reasonably manual - the Subaru made really strange choices though with button positions for fan speed. (I do love the big MAX AC button that in an Aussie summer has the satisfaction of I guess blamming the "Easy" button. I do like having a responsive smart phone for navigation, calls while driving. While I have used Android Auto at times to display on Subaru console screen, it just seems a bit laggy and takes your eyes off the road. I like my phone on a windscreen hard in corner where I finger it while keep my hands on the wheel if I need to. I really am not looking forward to what the offerings might be available when I likely will change out the current Landcruiser for something to help me tow a caravan for some retirement adventures.
• whynotkeithberg 3y ago
  I have a 2015 VW GTI with a touch screen in front... My Border Collie rides shotgun 99% of the time and the touch screen malfunctions like crazy because he constantly sends bits of slobber running down it. I have to hold the button down for 10 seconds to reset it quite often because it will randomly just keep triggering a button press skipping songs, or going into a random menu. I should have just replaced it with a different deck, but the area it fills with that screen is rather large and it will be hard to find something that looks good in the gap that doesn't also have a screen.
• mitchdoogle 3y ago
  I always thought phones and other devices benefitted from keeping a few physical buttons for repetitive or key tasks. With phones, three buttons across the bottom are great - for going back or to the home screen for example. For a car, I can imagine that volume, climate control, defrost, things like that - should be kept as physical buttons
• MangezBien 3y ago
  I know car software is an afterthought for companies because most consumers don't make their car buying decisions based on how good the software is, but if any company made truly intuitive car software, I would be won as a customer.
  • notoverthere 3y ago
    Isn't that what Tesla tried to do? I've heard their software was good. Or maybe I'm imagining that.
• matty22 3y ago
  Ideal world: The only thing the screen does is backup camera and provide bluetooth connection to CarPlay and AA and _maybe_ some tucked away very rarely used settings for things I definitely don't need while driving. No car company is going to write software that is better than CarPlay because a: they aren't Apple and b: my phone is also where all of my music, podcasts, contacts, map history, etc. is located. Everything else has a physical button.
• gkanai 3y ago
  The US Navy is also replacing touch panels for Navy vessels with physical controls when they found that touch panels were part of the reason of some accidents with Navy vessels. https://news.usni.org/2019/08/09/navy-reverting-ddgs-back-to-physical-throttles-after-fleet-rejects-touchscreen-controls https://news.usni.org/2019/08/09/navy-reverting-ddgs-back-to... As someone who has both a car with only a touch panel and a car with only physical controls, I prefer the physical controls every time, all the time.
• sar009 3y ago
  there are only 2 use case for digital screen in a car 1. help driver see while reversing 2. navigation and only one use case for touch-screen 1. navigation Other than that every use cases can be fulfilled by physical buttons. There is certainly no use case for a 16 inch screen.
• Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
• bumby 3y ago
  The amount and strength of the responses on this thread simultaneously underscores how utterly reliant we are on software and also how bad the state of general software quality has become
• trollerator23 3y ago
  Well no shit. I could have told them that.
• kk6mrp 3y ago
  Why is nobody putting E-Ink displays in cars? I don't particularly mind the touchscreen aspect, but the screens are way too bright for driving.
• m3kw9 3y ago
  Touch screen suck because is hard to remember vs same spot and single function. You get 3-4 layers or pressing before getting the it. But if you need more features, you also cannot make your dash like a 747. So touch screen it is.
• m3kw9 3y ago
  It’s either space shuttle controls vs touch screen. There are just too many features to fit it in all hardware buttons
  • WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > There are just too many features to fit it in all hardware buttons Operation critical controls are best delivered with buttons. The remainder can go on a screen that discourages use while driving - where most folks can safely ignore them forever (the same way they do for over-featured smart appliances).
• josefresco 3y ago
  Related: Drones (aka flying bladed copters) should have a hardware "land" button. To land my DJI I have to tap and hold a touchscreen button on my phone which is sometimes obscured by the apps notifications, or notifications from my phone.
• electrondood 3y ago
  Drivers hate touchscreens when siloed legacy automakers try to slap together what they think is a good dashboard. Sometimes you drive a car and you can just feel that every component was designed in isolation and then tossed over the fence.
• wackycat 3y ago
  You especially hate touchscreens if you have a Mazda with the "ghost touch" issue where the touchscreen will be randomly activated. Fun examples of things ghost touch has done for me - call a random spam number back, turn navigation guidance volume to full blast, adjust the music settings such that it is all bass or all treble. Only certain years, not mine, are covered by the recall even though it affects more years. Fix is 1200 to replace the whole nav set up. Or taking off the dash and disconnecting the touchscreen.
• d_runs_far 3y ago
  While we're ranting about the 'infotainment' systems on cars, how about the apps? The Kia Connect enrages me every time I have to use it for my wife's car. It makes the in-car system seem snappy and awesome. The fact that they want to start charging for it after the 'trial' period is un-believable.