30 ms·

The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

231 points by hhs 4y ago

not_me_ever 4y ago
The truth about my EV? In summer it gets me to work, and back, without me overheating. In winter it gets me to work, and back, without me freezing my ass off. The later is something my Diesel never could manage, taking about 20 miles to get temperatures above the freezing point. While my EV is nice and cozy after about half a mile.
Tostino 4y ago
That is interesting to see the difference the manufacturers bake into their battery designs as far as software control goes. Tesla seems to quite tightly control pack charge and discharge through their bms, and limit things in software rather than hitting chemical limits of the batteries like some other manufacturers seem to be allowing.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  It also matters who has heat pumps and who doesn’t. Keeping the meat bags warm is a lot of energy.
  - jeffrallen 4y ago
    The heat pump is for the batteries. If there's some heating/cooling left over, it's for the meatbags.
    - brianwawok 4y ago
      I don’t think many people are driving around in winter with a 30 degree cabin temp. IME meat bags get priority at all times except while supercharging, when the temp can go pretty wild while it focuses on the battery.
      - jeffrallen 4y ago
        I drive a Renault Zoe which has a heat pump and air-cooled batteries, and I can tell you that the Renault engineers were very protective of the battery. I've never had a problem with the cabin temperature, but it's clear that the HVAC system is sized and optimised for the batteries. For example, when charging cold batteries, the blower revs up much higher than it would ever go for the cabin.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    Looking back into the source article some of the more better performers do actually have heat pumps. It seems one of the mistakes is that some of them do not start heating the batter in advance, while others spendnpower to keep it warm while plugged in.
- ajross 4y ago
  It's not a chemical thing, it's just temperatures. Cold batteries have lower cell voltage, so the current available drops into the non-linear ("off") range at a lower state of discharge than a hot battery. The energy is still there[1], you just can't get it out without warming it up. Teslas[2] (and a handful of other models) have heat pumps to warm the batteries. It's as simple as that. The same system is integrated with navigation too, because even on warm days unused/empty cells will be colder, and you want those to be warm when you reach the supercharger. [1] Which is to say this isn't strictly a change in "range", if you can drive somewhere warm you can keep going to the rated distance. [2] Ones built over the last three years anyway -- older ones didn't have this. I think Y's and all but the oldest 3's have heat pumps, but older S/X models might not. Something to be aware of when buying on the used market.
  - Tostino 4y ago
    You are absolutely correct that temperature has those effects...but that doesn't change the fact that the underlying reaction inside the batteries is a chemical in nature. That chemical reaction inside the batteries is what gets slowed down as the temperature drops.
- aetherspawn 4y ago
  Hitting the chemical limits of the batteries is what causes 1/ rapid aging and 2/ catastrophic cell damage and/or short failure and runaway, so if what you say is true (I don’t think it is) then the other manufacturers have implemented poor state of function control (SOF) and it would be a good idea to avoid. Proper SOF control is loosely required for ECE R100 which most manufacturers would have, but OTOH I am convinced that it’s possible to fudge that certification. Source: battery controls engineer.
guerby 4y ago
Fun test by Out of Spec Reviews on his Tesla Model 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-c8AUeKs5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-c8AUeKs5c I Deep Froze My Tesla And Immediately Plugged It Into A Supercharger To See What Happens. I believe Bjørn Nyland did some similar testing too a while ago.
- judge2020 4y ago
  This is right after some Electrify America co-produced/co-designed stations didn't work in the cold, with his hypothesis being the voltage leak detection system within the charger breaking and thus not allowing current to flow: https://youtu.be/fq0RAjJ1PKQ https://youtu.be/fq0RAjJ1PKQ
- jeffbee 4y ago
  JHC the embodied carbon of just the junk in the driveway behind that guy is more than the lifetime carbon footprint of a typical African.
linsomniac 4y ago
TL;DR: This article is only about vehicle range WRT temp, not all EVs are created equal WRT range impact of cold temps. Tesla seems to be best, and Ford seems to be worst.
Animats 4y ago
Looks more like a brand problem. Especially Chevy. Different battery technology?
- linsomniac 4y ago
  I think it's largely a battery management system problem, may also be pack quality. I've always felt like part of Tesla's lead in EVs has allowed them to develop some "special sauce" in the form of battery management. Other manufacturers that have just started may be playing significant catch-up to Tesla's lead.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  GM (Chevy) actually excellently engineered packs for cold weather. But what you might be seeing here is in fact the result of their attention to battery longevity. The packs in the Volt & Bolt have a lot of systems set up to maintain temperatures optimal for battery lifespan (in both cold and hot weather); one of the things that distinguishes them from the lackadaisical engineering in e.g. a Nissan Leaf. Lessened range may have more to do with the system spending energy to keep the battery at optimal temperature. Contrary to what others are saying here, Tesla had no "head start" or lead. The Volt came out the same year as the Model S (2011/2012) and the battery pack in there (LGChem + GM) is extremely well engineered. (In general GM is far more cautious about many aspects of battery life than others. One of the reasons the Bolt has weaker/slower fast charging. They also have tended to focus on a lower segment of the market than others, too. Comparing a luxury vehicle Tesla against a Chevy Bolt is not exactly apples to apples)
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    And because of this cautious design, shouldn't used car consumers be able to better trust used Volts and Bolt E(U)Vs to have withstood their mileage and calendar years with hopefully less degradation?
- evanelias 4y ago
  If I understand correctly, it's the lack of a heat pump.
linsomniac 4y ago
Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact. Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps. While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely "cold", before the huge cold snap hit us), I drove the car and then parked it to charge for the night. It charged at a rate of 1 mile per hour. Usually it'll hit 30-40. I have it set to start charging at midnight, which meant that the battery cooled down after driving for ~6 hours, before it started charging. I could have started charging as soon as I got home, but then I'm in the 3x higher electricity pricing... I could bump that up to 9 or 10pm to help. This also impacts road trips. If you are traveling in freezing temps, definitely charge before checking into a hotel (unless the hotel has a charger, which is fairly rare), rather than in the morning. Instead of 30m charge time, it can take 60-120 minutes to charge at a Supercharge.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Are you in a garage? As long as you have 30+ amps of 240v, you are fine charging in winter. It will spend 5-15 minutes warning the pack (and show only a little charge rate) and then kick into your full charge rate. The only time you are screwed is in like 15-20 amp 120V, it takes nearly all the power to keep the battery warm so almost nothing left to charge. If it weren’t for winter I likely would have kept only a 120 in my garage as that is plenty for summer charging at home.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    Same was true (symmetrically more it less) at summer temps north of Phoenix: all the power went to cool the battery leaving nearly uselessly slow recharge times.
  - linsomniac 4y ago
    I'm not in a garage, good point.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
JPKab 4y ago
I live just outside of Boulder Colorado. We just had a polar vortex like a huge chunk of the country did intents were 14 below zero fahrenheit. My Tesla model 3 actually does very well although of course there is a range reduction. This is one of the areas where Tesla shines compared to other auto manufacturers because they have always viewed themselves as a battery company first. There's not really much you can do to beat years and years of data on BMS and various battery conditions. Tesla's are collecting and transmitting data on current temperature state of the battery etc all the time. Things like fit and finish of body panels are something that the other manufacturers have decades of experience with in Tesla doesn't. But on batteries we are now talking about 10 years of data Tesla has that they don't. And the culture in the Detroit Auto industry isn't exactly a good one when it comes to promoting competent engineering management.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  The recommendation is to not charge BEVs inside garages due to the fire risk. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-f...
rcarr 4y ago
There's a long distance motorcycle travel series with Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman called "Long Way Up" where they go from the bottom of South America to LA on electric motorcycles. They had a lot issues with both range and charging the motorbikes in the first few episodes when they were dealing with the cold winter climate in Tierra del Fuego. Once they got far enough north into warmer climates the bikes were charging a lot quicker and getting a lot more range. Either someone is going to have to come up with an ingenious solution or electric vehicles are going to be of limited use in cold weather locations where space is not abundant enough for garages (quite a lot of European cities). Infrared heating seems quite efficient, maybe the solution lies there. Based on the article, that Tesla is looking pretty impressive though!
- thrashh 4y ago
  Hopefully we discover a new battery chemistry We seem to stumble on new chemistries that get to production every few decades so cross your fingers
  - api 4y ago
    Or just more range. If you have 350 miles of range and it drops to 300 in the winter that’s not noticeable for 99% of drivers. We have a 220 mile Nissan Leaf that drops to 180-200 in the winter. We also live in Cincinnati which is a metro area about 75 miles in diameter at the widest span. Most drives are 10-30 miles. The range drop doesn’t matter unless you are doing a road trip. Recharge time does matter more but any drop there due to slower chemistry is somewhat offset by less thermal down-ramping since everything is cold. What we need most of all is more fast chargers between cities. There are enough in California and several other coastal states but nowhere near enough between cities in the US interior. For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the city and none between which is the inverse of what you really need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small midwestern towns or did they just get the priority wrong?
    - bsder 4y ago
      > For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the city and none between which is the inverse of what you really need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small midwestern towns or did they just get the priority wrong? Likely ROI--Return on Investment. You can predict quite well the usage of chargers in cities from other charger installations. In between, not so much. On my latest trip between San Diego and Austin, the fast-charging stops were almost completely empty. This is in constrast to the summer, for example, where most of the fast charging was completely full and not a small amount were broken. People have forgotten that gas stations at every convenience store is a relatively new thing in the US (starting about the mid 80s). Prior to that, part of the advantage of the Turnpikes and major interstates were regular gasoline station placements. And that happened because the governments subsidized them. The ironic part is that "gas stations everywhere" has been absolutely terrible for groundwater--contamination is now ubiquitous. Paying gas stations to dig up old tanks and replace them with electric chargers would be a big environmental win.
d_watt 4y ago
Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of travel, it had dropped to 40 miles left. I turned around and drove back, now with ~20 miles left. I parked the car in an unheated garage and plugged it back in, praying that the car would heat the garage to the point it could start charging. Maybe 2-3 hours later it started to take a charge, and 3 days later it was up to 150 miles, and I drove it to a super charger. I realized after that, if I ever moved back to Maine and wanted a tesla I - would need a heated garage - I could never expect to leave my car overnight at a friends / trip during the winter.
- justahuman74 4y ago
  The 115v lines just arent enough, it may have been quite ok using a 240v though (from say a dryer plug)
  - simfree 4y ago
    OP should have gone by percentage of battery left, and just left the car plugged in. Not plugging in when arriving and letting the battery freeze (cold soak) overnight, unplugging after 30 minutes of 1.5kW level 1 charging and basing his entire decisions on what the car's guess-o-meter says for remaining milage is pretty crazy IMO. Seems like OP chose to do the worst thing possible at each juncture to ensure a bad charging experience. It is normal for cars to use 2 or 3 kilowatts (an hour or two of charging) heating the battery up to temperature in freezing conditions, but once the pack is up to temperature it charges close to normal speed.
    - nradov 4y ago
      It's hardly crazy to expect that the car should display an accurate range estimate based on the current temperature.
jackmott 4y ago
My father in laws truck wouldn’t start this winter in texas because the diesel froze. My EV worked great and thanks to the low temps the battery will be degrading a bit slower with age for a few days. But yes I take a 15% range hit
Ken_At_EM 4y ago
Yeah…my Model 3 loses way more than that in the Winter…I’d anecdotally wager a guess at 30%.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Love these charts that go 'clear down to freezing'. Last winter we got up to freezing maybe 5 days.
swayvil 4y ago
Flywheels. What's the state of the tech for that? Surly that's where we should be developing. Last I heard they're very efficient. In theory it has no ceiling, storagewise. And it certainly isn't constrained by a chemical reaction. The only downside is keeping it from blowing up. Right?
- petermcneeley 4y ago
  My friend you have come to the right place. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34079497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34079497
- fuoqi 4y ago
  Are you suggesting to use flywheels as an energy source in EVs??? There is a heap of issues with this idea, the main ones: - They are VERY heavy. Typical energy density for flywheels is 10-40 kJ/kg (if you account for the whole flywheel), while Li-ion batteries and gasoline store 300-1000 kJ/kg and 46700 kJ/kg respectively (the latter does not account for ICE efficiency). - They are relatively big, since you can store more energy with a bigger diameter (limited by material's strength-to-weight ratio). - Flywheel is a big gyroscope. You do not want to rotate it around while it spins.
  - swayvil 4y ago
    Yes, I understand the issues. They've used them in busses. Higher speed means more energy storage and ness necessary weight. Gyroscopic action can be handled with gimbals. Etc. So back to my question.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Hugely inefficient things, maintenance nightmare, no useful capacity, loads of really weird esoteric bits required to make them work at all.
labcomputer 4y ago
It’s interesting that nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the numerous range tests showing that Teslas achieve less than EPA range in many “real world” (warm weather) tests. Part of the EPA methodology is to penalize EV range using either a fixed constant or measurements of performance at reduced temperatures. Because Tesla cars perform better in the cold, they use the measurement method when calculating EPA range. That results in the perceived under-performance of Teslas compared to the competition in the so-called “real world” tests. But when cars are tested at low ambient temperatures, we see the results…
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jmclnx 4y ago
  I saw a similar discussion about Gas Mileage. The point was to allow us to compare the differences between different models under similar conditions, not to get real world results. Maybe EVs need more complex testing ?
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Perhaps, but I think they just need more relevant tests. The EPA tests were meant to be challenging for ICE cars, but happen to be easy for hybrids and EVs. I would like to see a 75 mph constant-speed test at 0F, 50F and 100F
- csours 4y ago
  https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss See the chart here. (source from article)
  - labcomputer 4y ago
    Yup, of the cars with “verified” (as opposed to estimated) winter range loss, Teslas do best. Further reinforces my point.
tonymet 4y ago
There are other winter issues as well. Door handles freeze, LCD screens fail, cameras and headlights are iced up, stability control fails Complex systems are convenient in ideal conditions but they suffer in extreme conditions. Expect more extremes winters in the coming years (as mild winter trends reverse).
hinkley 4y ago
I wonder how much of this can be addressed with active versus passive cooling of the batteries. One of the folk tricks with cold starting regular vehicles is to run the radio for a little bit, in order to warm the battery up just a little to help with cranking the engine. If you conserve the waste heat in the battery banks until the batteries hit 50ºC for instance, then they would spend less time at ambient temperatures once you start moving. Some of that could offset/be offset by the cabin heating system, if you did it right. But I think the math comes down to the question of whether cooling a battery to freezing reduces the potential energy in the battery, or just the recoverable energy. I think it's the latter, and if so then how much recoverable energy can you increase by converting a given amount of that energy into BTUs to warm the battery?
metadat 4y ago
Related discussion from 6 days ago: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038582 (182 points, 317 comments)
mfer 4y ago
Consider a 5 year old EV with reduced battery power due to age in the winter. This is looking at new. Practically speaking, it gets worse
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
Living in a region were you need to warm up car for 5 minutes to stop it being an unwelcoming block of ice, and experiencing frequent failures to get the starter running due to discharged battery due to cold, I always wondered how much cold affects battery performance and his much the heating costs in miles. Tesla's figures look unbelievably good, and I think they don't account for heating. In -20° you'd need at least 1-2 kWt heater to not freeze, so heating alone would take 5-10% of total energy consumption.
- gocartStatue 4y ago
  Luckily the engines still generate plenty of heat and EVs use modern heat pumps.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    Tesla claims to have 90..94% motor efficiency. With model Y using 13kW per hour, even if you count all 6-10% of this as heat, and manage to capture it, it'll still be hardly enough to keep the car at a comfortable temperature without additional heating.
    - gocartStatue 4y ago
      Well, it looks worse than I thought: https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-system-details/amp/ https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-sy... With home air-to-air heat pumps I took COP of 2-3 as a base for heating, it seems that COP=1 is a big deal in a car.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  Norway proves EV are OK in the cold. They overtook ICEs already.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    Norway is a particularly bad example here because, despite its northern location, the climate is very mild, with the average winter temperature of just -6°C, while we here regularly see temperatures below -20°C and up to (or down to?) -35°C.
Deprogrammer9 4y ago
I live in Florida, im good.
partiallypro 4y ago
A bigger problem is that the batteries simply don't charge in the cold and also discharge much faster.
pjkundert 4y ago
We’re just still in the early days of EV maturity. I’ve driven in Canada for 40 years. Until modern low-viscosity oil capable engines — cars were required to be plugged in to block heaters for hours before attempting to start, at -20C and lower. I didn’t expect EVs to perform better than gas vehicles; why would I, at this level of their maturity? Diesel vehicles are even more brittle; oilfield workers simply don’t shut off their diesel trucks for days at a time, at low temperatures.
greenthrow 4y ago
There's two main challenges for EVs in cold weather that cause extra use of energy vs warm weather; warming up the battery pack and warming up the cabin. ICE vehicles also run less efficiently when the engine is cold, so this part is roughly analogous even if there is more extra energy required to heat the battery pack. The main difference is that once the engine is warm, ICE vehicles can then heat the cabin "for free" using waste heat because an ICE is so incredibly inefficient. This waste heat is useless when it is warm but a nice bonus when it is cold. EVs must expressly spend energy to create warmth for the cabin. But this is also why most EV owners know to schedule your vehicle to warm up while it is still plugged in before you depart. One advantage is that you can do this in a closed garage with an EV and not worry about fumes. Cold weather reduces range on all vehicles, it's just more noticeable on EVs due to having less excess range and the aforementioned heating concerns. But I drove a 2014 Leaf for 8 years here in Michigan, without issue. That's a low range vehicle in a very cold climate. It's totally fine.
amelius 4y ago
Is it true that the same model of car always uses the same underlying battery tech?
nimbius 4y ago
speaking as a professional diesel engine mechanic --and in the midst of this midwest snowstorm-- winter is hard on everything. -electrics with proper planning work well, but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. a tesla battery still has easily enough juice to send you to jesus even at -50c. -gas engines need block heaters or its like starting an engine in a tar pit, and the mileage takes a 20-30% haircut. -diesel engines are finnicky beasts in the cold. most of your environmental reclamation stuff has to be heated along with the block, and anti gelling agents are hell on them. mileage and waxy soot particulate from stacks are equally bad. california has special requirements and bans on certain gel agents as well. in colder places like nunavut or the northern territories, heavy truck drivers without reliable electrical power light a small fire under their engine to warm it. not for the faint hearted.
- rcxdude 4y ago
  > but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. oh wow, that is a pretty dangerous bit of misinformation
trog 4y ago
How does Norway deal with their EV population given its cold weather?
- matsemann 4y ago
  For most day-to-day trips it's absolutely not a problem the periods I've rented an electric car. And even the outdoor public/slow chargers at parking spots work fine in even cold weather. A bit annoying for longer trips. Typically "going to the cabin" type trips. Normally I wouldn't need to stop, or perhaps stop once. With a Peugeot e208 I had to stop twice, and the charging was a bit slow. Still, only turned a 4 hour trip to a <5 hour trip, and since it's not exactly something I do every week the consequence is basically zero. When there was fewer chargers it was more of a problem. Had to time it so that from the last charger you could reach the cabin and back. But later years with longer ranges and chargers everywhere I don't really plan anything. Except when going to Sweden... The Kia e-soul I've been using lately feels like it holds it charge much better than the e208, so probably even less of a problem. And never had troubles getting an EV to start during winter. But may be a bit unfair comparison as the ICEs I've had troubles with are all older generations.
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  We've had an EV for almost 5 years now. We first had a BMW i3 94Ah model. It had decent battery thermal management, so it performed fine for us. Yes effective range was down quite a bit, IIRC ~150km in -15C vs ~230km in summer, but it was quite manageable. It got totaled thanks to someone hitting us, and we ended up with a 24kWh Leaf. It doesn't have much in terms of thermal management, so with that we really notice the winter. Like, to and from work is just fine, but any significant trip in sub-zero (Celsius) conditions ain't fun. We knew it wouldn't be great, and we're looking to replace it. I'd say for our kind of weather, which have many days below -5C during winter, and living in a city or suburbs like we do, the Leaf is fine as a second car. The i3 was good enough since we didn't do lots of long trips during winter, just a few to the cabin and such. Both the i3 and the Leaf (and others) have climate timers, so you can get the car nice and warm in preparation for a trip, using power from the grid. This helps a fair bit both in comfort and in range. More modern cars are even better though, obviously more range to start with but also with things like battery preheating which sacrifices some of the battery energy to heat it up in preparation for proper fast charging. I admit I do get a bit of range anxiety during winter from time to time, mostly because the consequences of running out with -10C or so outside isn't fun. If I was living more on the countryside, there's few competitors to Tesla I think just due to the range and thermal management. All in all, we're definitely not gonna get another ICE. There's just too many things we like about the EVs.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Interesting to read some real world reports on how modern EV owners are coping with the extreme cold weather. Judging from various comments here it seems mostly fine albeit with a bit of range reduction. I don't think this is very surprising. This is not the first winter for many EV manufacturers, or owners. And of course EVs are pretty popular far into the arctic circle. E.g. there are super chargers in Northern Norway, people use them throughout the year, and it seems fine there. I think at this point there are very few surprises for manufacturers and they are pretty well aware how their vehicles perform under different conditions. I'd be interested to know in how those shiny new F 150s are holding up providing power to people who are in areas with power outages. It seems that these are exactly the type of conditions that justify owning such a vehicle. Presumably, Ford did a lot of testing in cold conditions to make sure they work fine there.
zainhoda 4y ago
Ohh. This explains why the Chevy Bolt in front of me on I-95 pulled slowed to a crawl and pulled over to the shoulder.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
pard68 4y ago
>More Americans are opting to purchase an electric vehicle Is there a source for this claim? I am suspicious that _most_ Americans are shopping for an EV.
- draw_down 4y ago
  [dead]
- wilg 4y ago
  That's why the quote says "more" and not "most".
  - pard68 4y ago
    Wow, I need glasses. Read that whole article but the first line was bugging me. Went back read it again. Never noticed it said "more". Thanks!
clouddrover 4y ago
> The company analyzed the real-world winter driving range of thousands of electric vehicles and found the Tesla Model Y retained most of its EPA-rated range in winter. This Axios article is from March, 2022 and has incorrect data. In particular it's wrong about the Tesla results. The Axios chart claims the Model Y achieves 97% of its EPA range in 70°F and 98% of its EPA range in 20-30°F. They're claiming the Model Y does better in cold weather. Here is updated data from Recurrent as of December 2022: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss What's new in the updated data is that Recurrent has included verified real world winter range tests. Previously they were relying on dashboard data and Teslas don't give you good information. Recurrent says, "As evidenced below, it appears in the Model 3 dashboard data that there is almost no change in available range in cold or hot conditions." But now, "New to 2022, we have added observed, real-world range fluctuations to our Tesla data. The dotted line below shows the range as observed from on-board devices and energy usage. This shows a more expected decrease in winter range, although Tesla's thermal management is still great at controlling cold weather range loss." What Recurrent now says for the Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD is: > Observed Range at 20-30F: 49% of Original EPA Range > Observed Range at 70F: 64% of Original EPA Range So even at 70°F the Model Y only attains 64% of its rated EPA range in their data. Tesla inflates their EPA numbers. You always need to do real world testing.
xyst 4y ago
Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”. Death to the suburban experiment.
- javajosh 4y ago
  100%. Someone who beats the drum on this regularly and effectively is Brent Toderian, @BrentToderian@mastodon.online. He's a city planner and strong advocate for precisely this position. Another resource is strongtowns.org. But yes, just speaking up, getting involved at the local level, is something that every citizen should get involved with if they can.
- mr_toad 4y ago
  Even if we got rid of all private passenger vehicles we’d still need some small commercial vehicles and they’d have the same technical issues.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Kind of. Any problem is easier with a much smaller number and commercial vehicles are more likely to be stored in places where they have power available.
- danny_codes 4y ago
  Hear hear. I'm traveling in Taiwan right now and it's just night and day. Outside of NY and small areas of Boston/Chicago/Phili/SF proper it's just a disaster in the US.
- yucky 4y ago
  Great plan! Tell us how..
- josephcsible 4y ago
  I like living in suburbs better than cities, so I choose to live in a suburb, but I don't try to keep other people from being able to live in cities. You like cities and not suburbs. Why can't you be content to just live in a city yourself? Why do you need to make it your mission to destroy my neighborhood?
ElfinTrousers 4y ago
So I don't know much about cars, there may be an obvious reason this wouldn't work, but what about a separate engine block heater?
brynjolf 4y ago
MG MQ4 has an option to preheat the battery, so if you know you are going to be charging in the next 30 minutes you can turn it on to be the optimal temperature. It does drain battery faster though so best make your calculations correct.
FatActor 4y ago
Mass-produced consumer EVs are a relatively new tech and they will have problems for another few decades and get better because technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years). And I'm not a fanboy by ANY stretch of the imagination (I utterly loathe the CEO of Tesla.) You can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years the same way you couldn't judge what would happen from the first Model T (1908) to the best selling car of 1958, the VW bug. I mean, safety and mileage weren't even primary concerns in `58. It was still novelty. You have to jump almost 100 years for mileage to finally get significantly better in automobiles! As well as airbags, antilock breaks, shatterproof glass, seatbelts, crumple zones, etc. EVs are nowhere near internalizing all of the issues, let alone solving them. I think this is an opportunity to work on the problems, and not say EVs are dead because they aren't perfect. Maybe they only fill a niche in the future, and don't take over, but that's still a big deal for emissions. Hopefully the issues with lithium mining & recycling, and infrastructure, and chargers, and battery tech improves. It doesn't mean don't try to make it better. I'm glad more companies are exploring the tech. The one area I would think is a justified complaint would be if companies were getting unfair tax-funded subsidies to produce inferior products to make their shareholders rich rather than improving their technology for society.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  If companies and government doesn't want people making judgments based on their experiences then they shouldn't overhype the vehicles and charge such high premiums unless they are going to be realistic that people are essentially spending 40k or more to beta test a city commuter car.
- chii 4y ago
  > technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years) > can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years i can't wait for 50 yrs to have EV be better than ICE cars. If they aren't better _today_, i cannot switch. I would assume the majority of consumers have this attitude. Therefore, in order to transition to EVs for environmental reasons, you either force consumers to have a lesser product by legislation, or improve EVs so that they are the natural choice to purchase. I don't believe consumers would be willing to suck up a legislated rule that forces them to consume an inferior product, and so they would choose not to elect someone that stand for such. Therefore, the only realistic way is to have EVs be _better_ than ICE. I think they are on the cusp today though, and soon will surpass ICE.
fwungy 4y ago
EVs are a wonderful technology for a specific set of use cases, but there are many for which it is not economically or technically efficient. You cannot beat the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. Thermodynamic efficiency of an ICE actually increases in cold weather because you can reuse the engine heat for the passengers. In an EV you have to channel your motive fuel into electric heaters which are far less efficient than the drive motors themselves. The current policy movements towards EV only are suicidal. We are nowhere near ready to support it. It's also discriminatory because EVs cost much more than ICEs and do not have the lifespan of ICEs. Economically disadvantaged peoples of color often depend on older used vehicles.
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pensatoio 4y ago
Yesterday, I drove my M3 from Nashville to Chicago in the sub-zero wind. Yes, range was slightly down, but not nearly enough to frustrate me. I imagine today's battery chemistry won't be viable for mass adoption further North, but other than that, I wouldn't let it stop you. Anecdotally, every other aspect of owning the car is wonderful.
upsidesinclude 4y ago
This is comedy gold: >Start the vehicle while it’s plugged in to allow the battery to warm up. “The key is warming that battery up,"
- davedx 4y ago
  What’s the comedy? I always used to let my petrol car engine run a few mins till it warmed up on very cold mornings too
  - upsidesinclude 4y ago
    Has not been advised to do that since the 90's
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bob1029 4y ago
I'd like to point out that many ICE vehicles actually improve in performance as the air temperature drops. For naturally-aspirated motors with aggressive timing, going from 80F to 32F can feel like someone bolted a small supercharger to the engine.
vlad 4y ago
eGolf looks great with 88-111% on this chart, but it has a small battery. This car's range of 125 or 135 in warm weather is lower than the other cars', which start at 176 in freezing temperatures.
hefferbub 4y ago
I live in a multi-unit residential coop community, and we have managed to install a 240v outlet in each of our 90 carports, and are adding more outlets in open parking areas by mounting them on simple fence-like structures. We use 240v chargers that plug in rather than being hardwired so that we can easily move them around. We have found that a 100 AMP service can effectively serve up to about 20 EVs, so long as the chargers can communicate among themselves to manage peaks. We use all EnelX Juicebox 40A networked chargers and they have that capability. So how can you charge so many cars effectively with a small service? It is based on load factors. The average commute length in the US is around 15 miles one way. So most nights for most cars they only need to replenish 30 miles worth of charge overnight. So there are plenty of hours and plenty of amps to cover that. Of course, some folks come home from a long trip and need a full 300 mile charge, while some didn’t even drive that day and need no charge—basically it all comes out in the wash. There are other considerations, but the takeaway is that you CAN support a lot of EVs charging for modest investments if you do it smart. I wrote a white paper on this in case anyone is hoping to do this where you live: https://localforce.io/misc/Cost_Effective_EV_Charging_for_Multifamily_Residential_Communities.pdf https://localforce.io/misc/Cost_Effective_EV_Charging_for_Mu...
tamaharbor 4y ago
Perhaps they should think this out before they outlaw ICE cars in colder climates.
helloworld11 4y ago
The people posting here about all the aspects of EV car charging that are just so easy and convenient and present in their region, or easily applicable with a bit of effort have clearly not traveled to the other 80% of the planet that isn't the highly developed nations. I know that technology can make surprisingly rapid inroads even into far and poorly developed corners, but this applies most of all to either easily or centrally scalable things. The requirements around EV cars are neither. I can't even imagine how quickly or easily much of this stuff will be in any way practical for hundreds of millions of people living in places where EV charging conveniences and personal garages or etc simply aren't the case at all or possible. These péople won't give a shit about going EV "for the sake of the planet" until they can do it without being screwed in so many ways. Some of you truly do live in pleasant little bubbles that simply don't consider the wider human world.

231 points by hhs 4y ago

The truth about my EV? In summer it gets me to work, and back, without me overheating. In winter it gets me to work, and back, without me freezing my ass off. The later is something my Diesel never could manage, taking about 20 miles to get temperatures above the freezing point. While my EV is nice and cozy after about half a mile.

Tostino 4y ago

That is interesting to see the difference the manufacturers bake into their battery designs as far as software control goes. Tesla seems to quite tightly control pack charge and discharge through their bms, and limit things in software rather than hitting chemical limits of the batteries like some other manufacturers seem to be allowing.

brianwawok 4y ago
It also matters who has heat pumps and who doesn’t. Keeping the meat bags warm is a lot of energy.
- jeffrallen 4y ago
  The heat pump is for the batteries. If there's some heating/cooling left over, it's for the meatbags.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    I don’t think many people are driving around in winter with a 30 degree cabin temp. IME meat bags get priority at all times except while supercharging, when the temp can go pretty wild while it focuses on the battery.
    - jeffrallen 4y ago
      I drive a Renault Zoe which has a heat pump and air-cooled batteries, and I can tell you that the Renault engineers were very protective of the battery. I've never had a problem with the cabin temperature, but it's clear that the HVAC system is sized and optimised for the batteries. For example, when charging cold batteries, the blower revs up much higher than it would ever go for the cabin.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  Looking back into the source article some of the more better performers do actually have heat pumps. It seems one of the mistakes is that some of them do not start heating the batter in advance, while others spendnpower to keep it warm while plugged in.
ajross 4y ago
It's not a chemical thing, it's just temperatures. Cold batteries have lower cell voltage, so the current available drops into the non-linear ("off") range at a lower state of discharge than a hot battery. The energy is still there[1], you just can't get it out without warming it up. Teslas[2] (and a handful of other models) have heat pumps to warm the batteries. It's as simple as that. The same system is integrated with navigation too, because even on warm days unused/empty cells will be colder, and you want those to be warm when you reach the supercharger. [1] Which is to say this isn't strictly a change in "range", if you can drive somewhere warm you can keep going to the rated distance. [2] Ones built over the last three years anyway -- older ones didn't have this. I think Y's and all but the oldest 3's have heat pumps, but older S/X models might not. Something to be aware of when buying on the used market.
- Tostino 4y ago
  You are absolutely correct that temperature has those effects...but that doesn't change the fact that the underlying reaction inside the batteries is a chemical in nature. That chemical reaction inside the batteries is what gets slowed down as the temperature drops.
aetherspawn 4y ago
Hitting the chemical limits of the batteries is what causes 1/ rapid aging and 2/ catastrophic cell damage and/or short failure and runaway, so if what you say is true (I don’t think it is) then the other manufacturers have implemented poor state of function control (SOF) and it would be a good idea to avoid. Proper SOF control is loosely required for ECE R100 which most manufacturers would have, but OTOH I am convinced that it’s possible to fudge that certification. Source: battery controls engineer.

guerby 4y ago

Fun test by Out of Spec Reviews on his Tesla Model 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-c8AUeKs5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-c8AUeKs5c I Deep Froze My Tesla And Immediately Plugged It Into A Supercharger To See What Happens. I believe Bjørn Nyland did some similar testing too a while ago.

judge2020 4y ago
This is right after some Electrify America co-produced/co-designed stations didn't work in the cold, with his hypothesis being the voltage leak detection system within the charger breaking and thus not allowing current to flow: https://youtu.be/fq0RAjJ1PKQ https://youtu.be/fq0RAjJ1PKQ
jeffbee 4y ago
JHC the embodied carbon of just the junk in the driveway behind that guy is more than the lifetime carbon footprint of a typical African.

linsomniac 4y ago

TL;DR: This article is only about vehicle range WRT temp, not all EVs are created equal WRT range impact of cold temps. Tesla seems to be best, and Ford seems to be worst.

Animats 4y ago

Looks more like a brand problem. Especially Chevy. Different battery technology?

linsomniac 4y ago
I think it's largely a battery management system problem, may also be pack quality. I've always felt like part of Tesla's lead in EVs has allowed them to develop some "special sauce" in the form of battery management. Other manufacturers that have just started may be playing significant catch-up to Tesla's lead.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
GM (Chevy) actually excellently engineered packs for cold weather. But what you might be seeing here is in fact the result of their attention to battery longevity. The packs in the Volt & Bolt have a lot of systems set up to maintain temperatures optimal for battery lifespan (in both cold and hot weather); one of the things that distinguishes them from the lackadaisical engineering in e.g. a Nissan Leaf. Lessened range may have more to do with the system spending energy to keep the battery at optimal temperature. Contrary to what others are saying here, Tesla had no "head start" or lead. The Volt came out the same year as the Model S (2011/2012) and the battery pack in there (LGChem + GM) is extremely well engineered. (In general GM is far more cautious about many aspects of battery life than others. One of the reasons the Bolt has weaker/slower fast charging. They also have tended to focus on a lower segment of the market than others, too. Comparing a luxury vehicle Tesla against a Chevy Bolt is not exactly apples to apples)
- neon_electro 4y ago
  And because of this cautious design, shouldn't used car consumers be able to better trust used Volts and Bolt E(U)Vs to have withstood their mileage and calendar years with hopefully less degradation?
evanelias 4y ago
If I understand correctly, it's the lack of a heat pump.

linsomniac 4y ago

Range impact of cold weather does seem to be a real thing, I can't speak personally because I own a Tesla which has some of the lowest impact. Another thing to keep in mind is: Charging speeds of cold temps. While the Tesla seems to do great at range, charging at cold temps is not great. When it's below freezing, home charging can be tough to impossible. A few days ago (when it was merely "cold", before the huge cold snap hit us), I drove the car and then parked it to charge for the night. It charged at a rate of 1 mile per hour. Usually it'll hit 30-40. I have it set to start charging at midnight, which meant that the battery cooled down after driving for ~6 hours, before it started charging. I could have started charging as soon as I got home, but then I'm in the 3x higher electricity pricing... I could bump that up to 9 or 10pm to help. This also impacts road trips. If you are traveling in freezing temps, definitely charge before checking into a hotel (unless the hotel has a charger, which is fairly rare), rather than in the morning. Instead of 30m charge time, it can take 60-120 minutes to charge at a Supercharge.

brianwawok 4y ago
Are you in a garage? As long as you have 30+ amps of 240v, you are fine charging in winter. It will spend 5-15 minutes warning the pack (and show only a little charge rate) and then kick into your full charge rate. The only time you are screwed is in like 15-20 amp 120V, it takes nearly all the power to keep the battery warm so almost nothing left to charge. If it weren’t for winter I likely would have kept only a 120 in my garage as that is plenty for summer charging at home.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  Same was true (symmetrically more it less) at summer temps north of Phoenix: all the power went to cool the battery leaving nearly uselessly slow recharge times.
- linsomniac 4y ago
  I'm not in a garage, good point.
toomuchtodo 4y ago

JPKab 4y ago

I live just outside of Boulder Colorado. We just had a polar vortex like a huge chunk of the country did intents were 14 below zero fahrenheit. My Tesla model 3 actually does very well although of course there is a range reduction. This is one of the areas where Tesla shines compared to other auto manufacturers because they have always viewed themselves as a battery company first. There's not really much you can do to beat years and years of data on BMS and various battery conditions. Tesla's are collecting and transmitting data on current temperature state of the battery etc all the time. Things like fit and finish of body panels are something that the other manufacturers have decades of experience with in Tesla doesn't. But on batteries we are now talking about 10 years of data Tesla has that they don't. And the culture in the Detroit Auto industry isn't exactly a good one when it comes to promoting competent engineering management.

olivermarks 4y ago
The recommendation is to not charge BEVs inside garages due to the fire risk. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-f...

rcarr 4y ago

There's a long distance motorcycle travel series with Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman called "Long Way Up" where they go from the bottom of South America to LA on electric motorcycles. They had a lot issues with both range and charging the motorbikes in the first few episodes when they were dealing with the cold winter climate in Tierra del Fuego. Once they got far enough north into warmer climates the bikes were charging a lot quicker and getting a lot more range. Either someone is going to have to come up with an ingenious solution or electric vehicles are going to be of limited use in cold weather locations where space is not abundant enough for garages (quite a lot of European cities). Infrared heating seems quite efficient, maybe the solution lies there. Based on the article, that Tesla is looking pretty impressive though!

thrashh 4y ago
Hopefully we discover a new battery chemistry We seem to stumble on new chemistries that get to production every few decades so cross your fingers
- api 4y ago
  Or just more range. If you have 350 miles of range and it drops to 300 in the winter that’s not noticeable for 99% of drivers. We have a 220 mile Nissan Leaf that drops to 180-200 in the winter. We also live in Cincinnati which is a metro area about 75 miles in diameter at the widest span. Most drives are 10-30 miles. The range drop doesn’t matter unless you are doing a road trip. Recharge time does matter more but any drop there due to slower chemistry is somewhat offset by less thermal down-ramping since everything is cold. What we need most of all is more fast chargers between cities. There are enough in California and several other coastal states but nowhere near enough between cities in the US interior. For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the city and none between which is the inverse of what you really need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small midwestern towns or did they just get the priority wrong?
  - bsder 4y ago
    > For some reason they put a bunch of DC chargers in the city and none between which is the inverse of what you really need. Is there a grid capacity problem in small midwestern towns or did they just get the priority wrong? Likely ROI--Return on Investment. You can predict quite well the usage of chargers in cities from other charger installations. In between, not so much. On my latest trip between San Diego and Austin, the fast-charging stops were almost completely empty. This is in constrast to the summer, for example, where most of the fast charging was completely full and not a small amount were broken. People have forgotten that gas stations at every convenience store is a relatively new thing in the US (starting about the mid 80s). Prior to that, part of the advantage of the Turnpikes and major interstates were regular gasoline station placements. And that happened because the governments subsidized them. The ironic part is that "gas stations everywhere" has been absolutely terrible for groundwater--contamination is now ubiquitous. Paying gas stations to dig up old tanks and replace them with electric chargers would be a big environmental win.

d_watt 4y ago

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of travel, it had dropped to 40 miles left. I turned around and drove back, now with ~20 miles left. I parked the car in an unheated garage and plugged it back in, praying that the car would heat the garage to the point it could start charging. Maybe 2-3 hours later it started to take a charge, and 3 days later it was up to 150 miles, and I drove it to a super charger. I realized after that, if I ever moved back to Maine and wanted a tesla I - would need a heated garage - I could never expect to leave my car overnight at a friends / trip during the winter.

justahuman74 4y ago
The 115v lines just arent enough, it may have been quite ok using a 240v though (from say a dryer plug)
- simfree 4y ago
  OP should have gone by percentage of battery left, and just left the car plugged in. Not plugging in when arriving and letting the battery freeze (cold soak) overnight, unplugging after 30 minutes of 1.5kW level 1 charging and basing his entire decisions on what the car's guess-o-meter says for remaining milage is pretty crazy IMO. Seems like OP chose to do the worst thing possible at each juncture to ensure a bad charging experience. It is normal for cars to use 2 or 3 kilowatts (an hour or two of charging) heating the battery up to temperature in freezing conditions, but once the pack is up to temperature it charges close to normal speed.
  - nradov 4y ago
    It's hardly crazy to expect that the car should display an accurate range estimate based on the current temperature.

jackmott 4y ago

My father in laws truck wouldn’t start this winter in texas because the diesel froze. My EV worked great and thanks to the low temps the battery will be degrading a bit slower with age for a few days. But yes I take a 15% range hit

Ken_At_EM 4y ago

Yeah…my Model 3 loses way more than that in the Winter…I’d anecdotally wager a guess at 30%.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

Love these charts that go 'clear down to freezing'. Last winter we got up to freezing maybe 5 days.

swayvil 4y ago

Flywheels. What's the state of the tech for that? Surly that's where we should be developing. Last I heard they're very efficient. In theory it has no ceiling, storagewise. And it certainly isn't constrained by a chemical reaction. The only downside is keeping it from blowing up. Right?

petermcneeley 4y ago
My friend you have come to the right place. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34079497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34079497
fuoqi 4y ago
Are you suggesting to use flywheels as an energy source in EVs??? There is a heap of issues with this idea, the main ones: - They are VERY heavy. Typical energy density for flywheels is 10-40 kJ/kg (if you account for the whole flywheel), while Li-ion batteries and gasoline store 300-1000 kJ/kg and 46700 kJ/kg respectively (the latter does not account for ICE efficiency). - They are relatively big, since you can store more energy with a bigger diameter (limited by material's strength-to-weight ratio). - Flywheel is a big gyroscope. You do not want to rotate it around while it spins.
- swayvil 4y ago
  Yes, I understand the issues. They've used them in busses. Higher speed means more energy storage and ness necessary weight. Gyroscopic action can be handled with gimbals. Etc. So back to my question.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
Hugely inefficient things, maintenance nightmare, no useful capacity, loads of really weird esoteric bits required to make them work at all.

labcomputer 4y ago

It’s interesting that nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the numerous range tests showing that Teslas achieve less than EPA range in many “real world” (warm weather) tests. Part of the EPA methodology is to penalize EV range using either a fixed constant or measurements of performance at reduced temperatures. Because Tesla cars perform better in the cold, they use the measurement method when calculating EPA range. That results in the perceived under-performance of Teslas compared to the competition in the so-called “real world” tests. But when cars are tested at low ambient temperatures, we see the results…

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jmclnx 4y ago
I saw a similar discussion about Gas Mileage. The point was to allow us to compare the differences between different models under similar conditions, not to get real world results. Maybe EVs need more complex testing ?
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Perhaps, but I think they just need more relevant tests. The EPA tests were meant to be challenging for ICE cars, but happen to be easy for hybrids and EVs. I would like to see a 75 mph constant-speed test at 0F, 50F and 100F
csours 4y ago
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss See the chart here. (source from article)
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Yup, of the cars with “verified” (as opposed to estimated) winter range loss, Teslas do best. Further reinforces my point.

tonymet 4y ago

There are other winter issues as well. Door handles freeze, LCD screens fail, cameras and headlights are iced up, stability control fails Complex systems are convenient in ideal conditions but they suffer in extreme conditions. Expect more extremes winters in the coming years (as mild winter trends reverse).

hinkley 4y ago

I wonder how much of this can be addressed with active versus passive cooling of the batteries. One of the folk tricks with cold starting regular vehicles is to run the radio for a little bit, in order to warm the battery up just a little to help with cranking the engine. If you conserve the waste heat in the battery banks until the batteries hit 50ºC for instance, then they would spend less time at ambient temperatures once you start moving. Some of that could offset/be offset by the cabin heating system, if you did it right. But I think the math comes down to the question of whether cooling a battery to freezing reduces the potential energy in the battery, or just the recoverable energy. I think it's the latter, and if so then how much recoverable energy can you increase by converting a given amount of that energy into BTUs to warm the battery?

metadat 4y ago

Related discussion from 6 days ago: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34038582 (182 points, 317 comments)

mfer 4y ago

Consider a 5 year old EV with reduced battery power due to age in the winter. This is looking at new. Practically speaking, it gets worse

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

Living in a region were you need to warm up car for 5 minutes to stop it being an unwelcoming block of ice, and experiencing frequent failures to get the starter running due to discharged battery due to cold, I always wondered how much cold affects battery performance and his much the heating costs in miles. Tesla's figures look unbelievably good, and I think they don't account for heating. In -20° you'd need at least 1-2 kWt heater to not freeze, so heating alone would take 5-10% of total energy consumption.

gocartStatue 4y ago
Luckily the engines still generate plenty of heat and EVs use modern heat pumps.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  Tesla claims to have 90..94% motor efficiency. With model Y using 13kW per hour, even if you count all 6-10% of this as heat, and manage to capture it, it'll still be hardly enough to keep the car at a comfortable temperature without additional heating.
  - gocartStatue 4y ago
    Well, it looks worse than I thought: https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-system-details/amp/ https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-sy... With home air-to-air heat pumps I took COP of 2-3 as a base for heating, it seems that COP=1 is a big deal in a car.
throwaway290 4y ago
Norway proves EV are OK in the cold. They overtook ICEs already.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  Norway is a particularly bad example here because, despite its northern location, the climate is very mild, with the average winter temperature of just -6°C, while we here regularly see temperatures below -20°C and up to (or down to?) -35°C.

Deprogrammer9 4y ago

I live in Florida, im good.

partiallypro 4y ago

A bigger problem is that the batteries simply don't charge in the cold and also discharge much faster.

pjkundert 4y ago

We’re just still in the early days of EV maturity. I’ve driven in Canada for 40 years. Until modern low-viscosity oil capable engines — cars were required to be plugged in to block heaters for hours before attempting to start, at -20C and lower. I didn’t expect EVs to perform better than gas vehicles; why would I, at this level of their maturity? Diesel vehicles are even more brittle; oilfield workers simply don’t shut off their diesel trucks for days at a time, at low temperatures.

greenthrow 4y ago

There's two main challenges for EVs in cold weather that cause extra use of energy vs warm weather; warming up the battery pack and warming up the cabin. ICE vehicles also run less efficiently when the engine is cold, so this part is roughly analogous even if there is more extra energy required to heat the battery pack. The main difference is that once the engine is warm, ICE vehicles can then heat the cabin "for free" using waste heat because an ICE is so incredibly inefficient. This waste heat is useless when it is warm but a nice bonus when it is cold. EVs must expressly spend energy to create warmth for the cabin. But this is also why most EV owners know to schedule your vehicle to warm up while it is still plugged in before you depart. One advantage is that you can do this in a closed garage with an EV and not worry about fumes. Cold weather reduces range on all vehicles, it's just more noticeable on EVs due to having less excess range and the aforementioned heating concerns. But I drove a 2014 Leaf for 8 years here in Michigan, without issue. That's a low range vehicle in a very cold climate. It's totally fine.

amelius 4y ago

Is it true that the same model of car always uses the same underlying battery tech?

nimbius 4y ago

speaking as a professional diesel engine mechanic --and in the midst of this midwest snowstorm-- winter is hard on everything. -electrics with proper planning work well, but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. a tesla battery still has easily enough juice to send you to jesus even at -50c. -gas engines need block heaters or its like starting an engine in a tar pit, and the mileage takes a 20-30% haircut. -diesel engines are finnicky beasts in the cold. most of your environmental reclamation stuff has to be heated along with the block, and anti gelling agents are hell on them. mileage and waxy soot particulate from stacks are equally bad. california has special requirements and bans on certain gel agents as well. in colder places like nunavut or the northern territories, heavy truck drivers without reliable electrical power light a small fire under their engine to warm it. not for the faint hearted.

rcxdude 4y ago
> but there is a nasty wives tale in the service industry that batteries are safer to work on in a cold garage and that you can skip the safety gear. oh wow, that is a pretty dangerous bit of misinformation

trog 4y ago

How does Norway deal with their EV population given its cold weather?

matsemann 4y ago
For most day-to-day trips it's absolutely not a problem the periods I've rented an electric car. And even the outdoor public/slow chargers at parking spots work fine in even cold weather. A bit annoying for longer trips. Typically "going to the cabin" type trips. Normally I wouldn't need to stop, or perhaps stop once. With a Peugeot e208 I had to stop twice, and the charging was a bit slow. Still, only turned a 4 hour trip to a <5 hour trip, and since it's not exactly something I do every week the consequence is basically zero. When there was fewer chargers it was more of a problem. Had to time it so that from the last charger you could reach the cabin and back. But later years with longer ranges and chargers everywhere I don't really plan anything. Except when going to Sweden... The Kia e-soul I've been using lately feels like it holds it charge much better than the e208, so probably even less of a problem. And never had troubles getting an EV to start during winter. But may be a bit unfair comparison as the ICEs I've had troubles with are all older generations.
magicalhippo 4y ago
We've had an EV for almost 5 years now. We first had a BMW i3 94Ah model. It had decent battery thermal management, so it performed fine for us. Yes effective range was down quite a bit, IIRC ~150km in -15C vs ~230km in summer, but it was quite manageable. It got totaled thanks to someone hitting us, and we ended up with a 24kWh Leaf. It doesn't have much in terms of thermal management, so with that we really notice the winter. Like, to and from work is just fine, but any significant trip in sub-zero (Celsius) conditions ain't fun. We knew it wouldn't be great, and we're looking to replace it. I'd say for our kind of weather, which have many days below -5C during winter, and living in a city or suburbs like we do, the Leaf is fine as a second car. The i3 was good enough since we didn't do lots of long trips during winter, just a few to the cabin and such. Both the i3 and the Leaf (and others) have climate timers, so you can get the car nice and warm in preparation for a trip, using power from the grid. This helps a fair bit both in comfort and in range. More modern cars are even better though, obviously more range to start with but also with things like battery preheating which sacrifices some of the battery energy to heat it up in preparation for proper fast charging. I admit I do get a bit of range anxiety during winter from time to time, mostly because the consequences of running out with -10C or so outside isn't fun. If I was living more on the countryside, there's few competitors to Tesla I think just due to the range and thermal management. All in all, we're definitely not gonna get another ICE. There's just too many things we like about the EVs.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

Interesting to read some real world reports on how modern EV owners are coping with the extreme cold weather. Judging from various comments here it seems mostly fine albeit with a bit of range reduction. I don't think this is very surprising. This is not the first winter for many EV manufacturers, or owners. And of course EVs are pretty popular far into the arctic circle. E.g. there are super chargers in Northern Norway, people use them throughout the year, and it seems fine there. I think at this point there are very few surprises for manufacturers and they are pretty well aware how their vehicles perform under different conditions. I'd be interested to know in how those shiny new F 150s are holding up providing power to people who are in areas with power outages. It seems that these are exactly the type of conditions that justify owning such a vehicle. Presumably, Ford did a lot of testing in cold conditions to make sure they work fine there.

zainhoda 4y ago

Ohh. This explains why the Chevy Bolt in front of me on I-95 pulled slowed to a crawl and pulled over to the shoulder.

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pard68 4y ago

>More Americans are opting to purchase an electric vehicle Is there a source for this claim? I am suspicious that _most_ Americans are shopping for an EV.

draw_down 4y ago
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wilg 4y ago
That's why the quote says "more" and not "most".
- pard68 4y ago
  Wow, I need glasses. Read that whole article but the first line was bugging me. Went back read it again. Never noticed it said "more". Thanks!

clouddrover 4y ago

> The company analyzed the real-world winter driving range of thousands of electric vehicles and found the Tesla Model Y retained most of its EPA-rated range in winter. This Axios article is from March, 2022 and has incorrect data. In particular it's wrong about the Tesla results. The Axios chart claims the Model Y achieves 97% of its EPA range in 70°F and 98% of its EPA range in 20-30°F. They're claiming the Model Y does better in cold weather. Here is updated data from Recurrent as of December 2022: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss What's new in the updated data is that Recurrent has included verified real world winter range tests. Previously they were relying on dashboard data and Teslas don't give you good information. Recurrent says, "As evidenced below, it appears in the Model 3 dashboard data that there is almost no change in available range in cold or hot conditions." But now, "New to 2022, we have added observed, real-world range fluctuations to our Tesla data. The dotted line below shows the range as observed from on-board devices and energy usage. This shows a more expected decrease in winter range, although Tesla's thermal management is still great at controlling cold weather range loss." What Recurrent now says for the Tesla Model Y Long Range AWD is: > Observed Range at 20-30F: 49% of Original EPA Range > Observed Range at 70F: 64% of Original EPA Range So even at 70°F the Model Y only attains 64% of its rated EPA range in their data. Tesla inflates their EPA numbers. You always need to do real world testing.

xyst 4y ago

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”. Death to the suburban experiment.

javajosh 4y ago
100%. Someone who beats the drum on this regularly and effectively is Brent Toderian, @BrentToderian@mastodon.online. He's a city planner and strong advocate for precisely this position. Another resource is strongtowns.org. But yes, just speaking up, getting involved at the local level, is something that every citizen should get involved with if they can.
mr_toad 4y ago
Even if we got rid of all private passenger vehicles we’d still need some small commercial vehicles and they’d have the same technical issues.
- acdha 4y ago
  Kind of. Any problem is easier with a much smaller number and commercial vehicles are more likely to be stored in places where they have power available.
danny_codes 4y ago
Hear hear. I'm traveling in Taiwan right now and it's just night and day. Outside of NY and small areas of Boston/Chicago/Phili/SF proper it's just a disaster in the US.
yucky 4y ago
Great plan! Tell us how..
josephcsible 4y ago
I like living in suburbs better than cities, so I choose to live in a suburb, but I don't try to keep other people from being able to live in cities. You like cities and not suburbs. Why can't you be content to just live in a city yourself? Why do you need to make it your mission to destroy my neighborhood?

ElfinTrousers 4y ago

So I don't know much about cars, there may be an obvious reason this wouldn't work, but what about a separate engine block heater?

brynjolf 4y ago

MG MQ4 has an option to preheat the battery, so if you know you are going to be charging in the next 30 minutes you can turn it on to be the optimal temperature. It does drain battery faster though so best make your calculations correct.

FatActor 4y ago

Mass-produced consumer EVs are a relatively new tech and they will have problems for another few decades and get better because technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years). And I'm not a fanboy by ANY stretch of the imagination (I utterly loathe the CEO of Tesla.) You can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years the same way you couldn't judge what would happen from the first Model T (1908) to the best selling car of 1958, the VW bug. I mean, safety and mileage weren't even primary concerns in `58. It was still novelty. You have to jump almost 100 years for mileage to finally get significantly better in automobiles! As well as airbags, antilock breaks, shatterproof glass, seatbelts, crumple zones, etc. EVs are nowhere near internalizing all of the issues, let alone solving them. I think this is an opportunity to work on the problems, and not say EVs are dead because they aren't perfect. Maybe they only fill a niche in the future, and don't take over, but that's still a big deal for emissions. Hopefully the issues with lithium mining & recycling, and infrastructure, and chargers, and battery tech improves. It doesn't mean don't try to make it better. I'm glad more companies are exploring the tech. The one area I would think is a justified complaint would be if companies were getting unfair tax-funded subsidies to produce inferior products to make their shareholders rich rather than improving their technology for society.

encryptluks2 4y ago
If companies and government doesn't want people making judgments based on their experiences then they shouldn't overhype the vehicles and charge such high premiums unless they are going to be realistic that people are essentially spending 40k or more to beta test a city commuter car.
chii 4y ago
> technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years) > can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years i can't wait for 50 yrs to have EV be better than ICE cars. If they aren't better _today_, i cannot switch. I would assume the majority of consumers have this attitude. Therefore, in order to transition to EVs for environmental reasons, you either force consumers to have a lesser product by legislation, or improve EVs so that they are the natural choice to purchase. I don't believe consumers would be willing to suck up a legislated rule that forces them to consume an inferior product, and so they would choose not to elect someone that stand for such. Therefore, the only realistic way is to have EVs be _better_ than ICE. I think they are on the cusp today though, and soon will surpass ICE.

fwungy 4y ago

EVs are a wonderful technology for a specific set of use cases, but there are many for which it is not economically or technically efficient. You cannot beat the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. Thermodynamic efficiency of an ICE actually increases in cold weather because you can reuse the engine heat for the passengers. In an EV you have to channel your motive fuel into electric heaters which are far less efficient than the drive motors themselves. The current policy movements towards EV only are suicidal. We are nowhere near ready to support it. It's also discriminatory because EVs cost much more than ICEs and do not have the lifespan of ICEs. Economically disadvantaged peoples of color often depend on older used vehicles.

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pensatoio 4y ago

Yesterday, I drove my M3 from Nashville to Chicago in the sub-zero wind. Yes, range was slightly down, but not nearly enough to frustrate me. I imagine today's battery chemistry won't be viable for mass adoption further North, but other than that, I wouldn't let it stop you. Anecdotally, every other aspect of owning the car is wonderful.

upsidesinclude 4y ago

This is comedy gold: >Start the vehicle while it’s plugged in to allow the battery to warm up. “The key is warming that battery up,"

davedx 4y ago
What’s the comedy? I always used to let my petrol car engine run a few mins till it warmed up on very cold mornings too
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  Has not been advised to do that since the 90's

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bob1029 4y ago

I'd like to point out that many ICE vehicles actually improve in performance as the air temperature drops. For naturally-aspirated motors with aggressive timing, going from 80F to 32F can feel like someone bolted a small supercharger to the engine.

vlad 4y ago

eGolf looks great with 88-111% on this chart, but it has a small battery. This car's range of 125 or 135 in warm weather is lower than the other cars', which start at 176 in freezing temperatures.

hefferbub 4y ago

I live in a multi-unit residential coop community, and we have managed to install a 240v outlet in each of our 90 carports, and are adding more outlets in open parking areas by mounting them on simple fence-like structures. We use 240v chargers that plug in rather than being hardwired so that we can easily move them around. We have found that a 100 AMP service can effectively serve up to about 20 EVs, so long as the chargers can communicate among themselves to manage peaks. We use all EnelX Juicebox 40A networked chargers and they have that capability. So how can you charge so many cars effectively with a small service? It is based on load factors. The average commute length in the US is around 15 miles one way. So most nights for most cars they only need to replenish 30 miles worth of charge overnight. So there are plenty of hours and plenty of amps to cover that. Of course, some folks come home from a long trip and need a full 300 mile charge, while some didn’t even drive that day and need no charge—basically it all comes out in the wash. There are other considerations, but the takeaway is that you CAN support a lot of EVs charging for modest investments if you do it smart. I wrote a white paper on this in case anyone is hoping to do this where you live: https://localforce.io/misc/Cost_Effective_EV_Charging_for_Multifamily_Residential_Communities.pdf https://localforce.io/misc/Cost_Effective_EV_Charging_for_Mu...

tamaharbor 4y ago

Perhaps they should think this out before they outlaw ICE cars in colder climates.

helloworld11 4y ago

The people posting here about all the aspects of EV car charging that are just so easy and convenient and present in their region, or easily applicable with a bit of effort have clearly not traveled to the other 80% of the planet that isn't the highly developed nations. I know that technology can make surprisingly rapid inroads even into far and poorly developed corners, but this applies most of all to either easily or centrally scalable things. The requirements around EV cars are neither. I can't even imagine how quickly or easily much of this stuff will be in any way practical for hundreds of millions of people living in places where EV charging conveniences and personal garages or etc simply aren't the case at all or possible. These péople won't give a shit about going EV "for the sake of the planet" until they can do it without being screwed in so many ways. Some of you truly do live in pleasant little bubbles that simply don't consider the wider human world.