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Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work
- ryanSrich 4y agoGood. There needs to be more of this. Forced commute is a horrendous work-lifestyle to maintain.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bluepoint 4y agomaybe he did figure out how to fully automate his job.
- funstuff007 4y agoYep, it would be amazing if he were simultaneously working 3 other ML jobs at 7 figures a year and living like a pasha in suburban Atlanta.
- skunkworker 4y agoQuite a big loss for Apple. Ian was the primary author of the 2014 GAN paper. https://arxiv.org/abs/1406.2661 https://arxiv.org/abs/1406.2661
- machinekob 4y agoGood researcher != good director/team leader.
- supernova87a 4y agoI can tell you from direct experience that he is no big loss for Apple. And he wasn't "Apple's Director of ML" as in the headline makes it sound like the top company lead for this topic. He was a director, among many. A reasonably sized group leader, not say, a JG.
- daniel-thompson 4y agoCan you elaborate on this.
- cardy31 4y agoI assume he just thinks Siri sucks?
- jackblemming 4y agoGANs were just low hanging fruit that Schmidhuber already found. By most accounts Ian Goodfellow is kind of an asshole, and there was some drama about him a few times over the years. I don’t know the man, that’s just what I’ve heard.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gwern 4y agoIf Schmidhuber had really found everything he says he found, the Singularity would've happened decades ago.
- carapace 4y agoYou know, if it were anyone else I would probably ignore this comment, but you seem to do your homework, to put it mildly. Are you saying he's, uh, misrepresenting himself? (I like Schmidhuber but I'm not knowledgeable enough to really evaluate his work or claims.)
- 4y ago
- mellosouls 4y agoThe first publication of the GAN idea appears to have been by a non-academic in his blog. https://stats.stackexchange.com/a/301280 https://stats.stackexchange.com/a/301280 https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/bnqm0p/d_gans_were_invented_in_2010/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/bnqm0p/d_g...
- slowbdotro 4y agoDuplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31297680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31297680
- dijit 4y agoNothing really substantial in the comment section there it seems.
- mkr-hn 4y agoIt's normal for multiple threads to occur until one takes over or a mod intervenes to merge or elevate one.
- minimaxir 4y agoTechnically the HN rule is "original source" which the tweet in the linked submission is. However HN's rules about tweet submissions are inconsistent and outdated.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mupuff1234 4y agoYou might agree or disagree with RTO but at least they aren't bending the rules for execs.
- qbasic_forever 4y agoUnlike Google where Urs demanded his org back in person while he moved to New Zealand to safely work remote: https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-reportedly-working-remote-after-opposing-it-for-staff-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-reportedly-worki...
- tpmx 4y agoUgh, that is pretty damning.
- nostromo 4y agoAnd it's not just Google. A recent report showed that corporate execs are twice as likely to still be working remotely compared to the rank-and-file, even as their companies mandate returning to the office.. https://finance.yahoo.com/m/6017a433-bf69-48cc-9aa0-70034b2e958f/workers-return-to-the-office%2C.html https://finance.yahoo.com/m/6017a433-bf69-48cc-9aa0-70034b2e...
- jeffbee 4y agoJust before he endorsed slavery on Twitter. "A bad look" doesn't even begin to describe Urs these days. https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-urs-holzle-buying-and-selling-people-tweet-2022-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-urs-holzle-buyin...
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
- renewiltord 4y agoOh, he said the most profitable business would be to buy people for what they're worth and sell them for what they think they're worth. The joke being people think they're worth a lot more than what they actually are. Honestly, I think it's a bit much to call that "endorsing slavery" since the intention isn't to say that buying and selling people is good.
- fortran77 4y agoWe wish him well. People leave jobs all the time.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y agoDo they leave them all the time because of a return-to-office policy?
- BigBubbleButt 4y agoIt seems to be pretty common today, yeah. I'd say it's probably the most important thing for everyone I know, even moreso than compensation lately.
- readthenotes1 4y agoProbably not. I really doubt that most people would give up a job in a satisfying office environment with people they truly enjoy working with on a product/project they are excited to work on everyday simply because of they are told they have to go in and meet those people they really groove with three times a week.
- db48x 4y agoI’d be willing to commute about a mile to gain all of those things.
- baq 4y agosome people have a life outside of the office and found that the commute takes a very large toll on that. they didn't know previously, but now have two years of experience that they'll never forget.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y agoPrior to the pandemic, people I worked with in NYC wore their commute times as badges of honor. “You commute 90 minutes each way? That’s nothing. I commute 2 1/4 hours each way” Think of that. Some people were spending 4.5 hours commuting every day. And it was ok with them.
- mmmmkay 4y agoI recently left Amazon for a fully remote position and that was my sole decision making factor.
- bonestamp2 4y agoAmazon recently recruited me for a job, a job that I already do remotely for a different company, and I turned it down for the same reason. The job at amazon paid way more, but I'm far more productive and happier at home. I see other jobs at amazon that are remote, but this particular department worked with hardware that they weren't interested in leaving the office. Again, I've worked remotely with similar hardware from the company that pioneered this type of hardware and have done so since 2008. We figured out security, remote testing, local development, software simulations, etc. and haven't had a single leak, hack, etc.
- worik 4y agoIt is difficult for some people to understand "The job at XYZ paid way more, but..." IMO Enough is best.
- dimtion 4y agoAmazon WFH policy is still flexible though. For example, in my team the current policy is to work wherever we feel the most productive and happiest. You could have potentially moved within the company if that was only decision factor.
- alistairSH 4y agoMaybe? I recently interviewed and nobody could tell me what the policy would be in a few months. “It’s WFH today, but that’ll probably change. And you can always take our bus from your local AWS office to the office where the rest of the team may or may not be because we don’t know what our policy will be.” I’d expect a company of Amazon’s size and stature to have a better plan than “whatever your VP wants this week.”
- 4y ago
- awinter-py 4y agoeven pre-pan, johny srouji wouldn't let the silicon team move into the open plan UFO and built them a trailer or something in the parking lot (per this https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/09/apple-park-employees-open-office/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/08/09/apple-park-employees-op...) guessing goodfellow has specific reasons for this move (like everyone), but feels increasingly like wfh has exposed gaps in our ability to manage or even measure the productivity of knowledge workers
- wtallis 4y agoHow do you get from: > And they built his team their own building, off to the side on the campus … in the article to: > and built them a trailer or something in the parking lot in your comment?
- lajamerr 4y agoI assume Ian wants to get back into research/publishing papers as well, he hasn't published any good papers in a while. He probably wanted the industry experience/research of machine learning in commercial applications with the scale and support of Apple behind it. When Apple designs things they design it with a fixed narrow purpose. Where as with Google you build general solutions. I think he wanted the experience of both. This return to office probably just gives him a good out after he accomplished what he wanted to do at Apple.
- laichzeit0 4y agoLet’s say he wants to get back into research. I assume you mean academia? Do you think academics should be forced back to office, I.e. campus? Should universities just be fully remote? Researchers don’t need in-person interaction with each other and neither do students?
- paul7986 4y agoI'm so happy to work for a company who tried to do hybrid and when no one showed up (no way i was going back its a 50 mile one way drive) beginning of April they just said we are now a remote company. Apple, Google, etc are going to learn quickly and change to all remote soon too I bet. Weighing their prestige vs. the improved quality of life remote brings to most workers can not compete. Especially with company's like Air BnB which pays same very high salaries who says work anywhere in the world. Overall a raise of 50 to 100k in salary would not get me back into any office and I live alone in a small town in south central PA. The pandemic forced me to find a new social life with new friends that Im equally enjoying as I did with friends I had at work (they are still around some socially but the connection isnt as strong).
- thr0wawayf00 4y agoGood for him. These companies touting their solutions for creating a more connected world can't have it both ways. Apple was able to ship the M1 and roll out new iterations of many other offerings since the pandemic hit. They're just fine. Apple didn't collapse since the pandemic hit, and the flexibility offered by remote work is far more valuable to lots of people than the loss of in-person collaboration opportunities. We deserve to have input into how we work best and if that means walking away from companies run by egomaniacs that need to see butts in seats, then so be it.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago> We deserve to have input into how we work best and if that means walking away from companies run by egomaniacs that need to see butts in seats, then so be it. The logical conclusion of this line of thinking is to organize your coworkers. You have much more bargaining power about your work conditions as an organized union. The history of unionization stems primarily from workers demanding safe working environments.
- closeparen 4y agoI would love a union to protect me from nasty working conditions, like remote meetings.
- hiptobecubic 4y agoThey are much better than in person meetings. I can make lunch and fold laundry.
- GoodJokes 4y agoUnions are for poor people. This person can be much more self righteous by quitting for another 6 figure paycheck. Very little risk.
- qbasic_forever 4y agoNonsense, the screen actors and writers guilds are formal unions and their members include all of the top Hollywood stars that pull down 7 figure+ paychecks from films.
- trhway 4y ago>a little over four years Full vest. Time to go. I've had WFH people around for more than 20 years at all the places I worked over that time. Mostly they were doing their job, yet there were always limits felt to what they can do and how much they can do.
- ghaff 4y agoPretty much everyone who has them is at least considering--even relatively modest--vesting schedules when they make moves.
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- trhway 4y agoThat is exactly my point. The RTO is just accidentally here and just makes for better sounding reason.
- astrange 4y agoA director shouldn't be worrying about his hiring grant vesting. I get the impression they're well-paid at that level until they're suddenly out the door.
- changoplatanero 4y agoAs far as I know, apple hasn't ever announced what he was working on
- AviationAtom 4y agoI'm not sure remote work is for me, but if justice can be done to a position with little, or no, in-office time... then why force employees into the office? Money can be saved on all the accomodations necessary for office workers, so it would seem like a win-win if remote work arrangements are viable for a position.
- hiptobecubic 4y agoManagement is often not convinced that justice can be done.
- thr0wawayf00 4y agoHere’s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes… the ones who see things differently — they’re not fond of rules… You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can’t do is ignore them because they change things… they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do... ...as long as it's done from the office.
- jjtheblunt 4y agoThe office is where the very expensive labs are. For at least parts of Apple engineering, very expensive equipment and prototypes are under lockdown and too expensive to duplicate for WFH. (at least that's how it was during my several years there.)
- earth2mars 4y agoPeople are smart enough ( I'm sure there is a hiding bar at these companies) to go to the office if they require access to certain equipment which they cannot take home. Why impose a rule that doesn't make sense.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y agoI don't think anyone (or, at least not many people) is arguing against working in the office if you have a specific need to be there. What people have an issue with is requiring a return to the office for no other reason than "group synergy".
- subpixel 4y agoI told Apple I wasn’t interested in interviewing for a non-remote role based on their NYC office. I’m not an engineer who can work anywhere I want. And I’m confident that working at Apple would have an incredible positive effect on my career. Still not worth it. I’d rather find a local job outside of tech than get back on the office space hamster wheel.
- xvector 4y agoApple Park is the only hamster wheel I'd remotely consider returning to
- dymk 4y agoIt’ll get boring after a year
- xvector 4y agoI was there for longer and still enjoyed it every day
- SixDouble5321 4y agoIt's even the right shape.
- humanistbot 4y agoIs there anything HNers feel more passionately about than remote work?
- paulcole 4y agoA couple contenders off the top of my head: 1. Defending pseudoscience (as long as it’s related to nutrition and exercise) 2. Disgust with “marketing people” and anyone with an MBA 3. Hating “woke” culture 4. Justifying piracy
- mattkevan 4y ago5. Decrying any attempt at not just stuffing every feature on the screen as dumbing down and wasting space. 6. The general decline of macOS with every new release. It’ll be locked down and turned into iOS any day now, just you wait.
- Johanx64 4y agoI can't think of the last time I've seen an app even remotely cluttered where calls for simplification/decluttering were called for (and the changes made sense) While the opposite, dumbing down and minimalism for it's own sake is a way more common occurrence (think: not showing MB/s when copying/downloading files, etc)
- prepend 4y agoThese all seem like high priority virtues so it’s nice that you think HN feels similarly about them.
- paulcole 4y ago5. Smugly thinking they’re very clever
- dotopotoro 4y agoSurprisingly, a lot of HN visitors come from Somali.
- briandear 4y agoI left Apple for the same reason. Director level folks get the headlines, but there are a lot of lower level folks doing the same thing.
- passivate 4y agoHow many is a lot?
- NKosmatos 4y agoGood for him and good for all the others that are able to do this (resign and find a new full remote job). For the rest of us it’s going to be a struggle to persuade our companies that WFH is well suited for a percentage of the workforce and they should offer it if they want to keep good/skilled workers. WFH is not for everybody and there are many people that want to return to offices, but the companies that realize that can offer both will come out of this better staffed ;-)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- saddist0 4y agoI don't get the fuss about such posts. At the end of the day, it boils down to your personal choices. You love to remote work, find a job with a flexible work policy. You don't, well, here are another companies you would love to work for. Ultimately, markets (including job market) is all about equilibrium. Either companies are going to increase the salary to come back [or reduce if you are staying back at home]. The thing which matters the most is picking up the best option for yourself. [and don't _always_ wait for your company to catch up]
- sys_64738 4y agoIt's because he is so high profile and a visionary in his field at Apple. Or was. He is merely an early big fish swimming away so expect more as draconian old-school companies try to drag employees back to their cubes.
- ripper1138 4y agoHe’s absolutely not a visionary.
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- bricemo 4y agoI think inventing Generative Adversarial Networks, which enable everything from Alexa to GPT-3 to DALL-E to thousands of other models we use today, is pretty visionary to the field of ML. I’m sure you have some nitpick but I don’t think it matters
- maleldil 4y agoWhat do GANs have to do with GPT-3? Isn't GPT a Transformer-based autoregressive model?
- ineedasername 4y agoI'm trying to hire for a position right now and it has dragged on for months for two reasons: 1) WFH is now limited to 1 day per week, and a 3 month probationary period where new hires don't even get that. 2) Salary. It's still a job seeker's market and my workplace is not keeping pace. It's spec'ed for 3 years of experience but salary is about the median for a new graduate w/o professional experience. I'm happy to train someone but if I rework the job class to allow for new grads then HR will lower the starting salary. So, I'm hoping to find someone who's a new grad but had a part time job or internship or any other non-coursework experience the could be even the least bit argued as adding up to the required experience. (the position is basically a data wrangler / sql jockey / light analysis position, but it directly supports the main revenue-generating operations of the organization so there is real $$$ lost by having this position empty. ::Grrrrr:: end rant.)
- wanderingmind 4y agoWhat you need is a new job where they don't treat your skill as a cost center
- ianai 4y ago“directly supports the main revenue-generating operations of the organization so there is real $$$ lost by having this position empty” How companies consider that a cost center is beyond me. But I’ve seen them do it.
- worik 4y agoOh golly, how right you are. > How companies consider that a cost center is beyond me. But I’ve seen them do it. I may have an answer: Because of our fetish with metrics. It is possible to measure the cost of an engineer or computer programmer. This can be assigned a cost which is arbitrarily precise. Calculating teh benefit is usually not so easy. So the decision makers (rational beings, just mislead by an intellectually bankrupt management philosophy) concentrate on what they can count. This is McNamara's fallacy
- visarga 4y agoToday he is https://twitter.com/badfellow_ian https://twitter.com/badfellow_ian
- idonotknowwhy 4y agoGood. This is a great way to tackle climate change.
- beefman 4y agoTwo years ago, articles and comments here were flagged and downvoted for suggesting that WFH might become permanent.
- brewdad 4y agoWell it clearly isn't permanent for everyone. That's why we are discussing this article.
- alexnewman 4y agoSeems win/win
- rrggrr 4y agoWFH is screwing young workers by eliminating the mentorship, learning by osmosis and relationship-building that has propelled many knowledge-based careers. If Goodfellow were truly a good fellow, he would recognize the higher purpose.
- sitkack 4y agoNone of those things have to suffer! They just can't be done by accident any more.
- alar44 4y ago
- wintermutestwin 4y agoI could provide much better mentoring at a local coffee shop or in my home office...
- mikece 4y agoHow is screen-sharing not adequate for pair programming and mentorship?
- dymk 4y agoThis is sarcasm, right? I honestly can’t tell
- mbrodersen 4y agoHahahaha that’s funny
- gravypod 4y agoI have personally never met someone, who was under the age of 20, who didn't have a solid grasp of working with other programmers remotely. With open source being the power house that it is most promising programmers growing up now are already way ahead of the curve.
- solenoidalslide 4y agoAllow me to introduce you to Digital Osmosis.
- buzzert 4y agoI can’t help but notice the timing of this. ML is starting to fizzle out as a “savior” of the industry after lofty promises were never fulfilled. Goodfellow was hired right at the peak of ML hype, so I have to assume his salary/total compensation was extraordinarily high, so he was very expensive to keep around. Apple would’ve made an exemption for exceptional talent. They didn’t make the exception for him.
- yeahwhatever10 4y agoDon't know about your first point on ML, but I think the second point is the more salient one. If Goodfellow was that productive and that much of a value add they would have found a way to keep him.
- buzzert 4y agoI don’t mean to disparage ML generally. I think it has a lot of promise in academia, but its utility in the consumer electronics industry (especially one that’s pivoting towards entertainment services) seems pretty limited.
- blululu 4y agoML has reached a level of maturity and ubiquity that it is having an effect on almost every area of computing. I have personally seen applications for ML that have moved the needle of consumer electronics applications. A lot of this is old hat stuff at this point but there is also a ton of value. Things like finding the white balance in photos, the next letter on a keyboard or how quickly to charge a phone are all areas that benefit from simple ml. I would for one would really appreciate it if Apple photos had a decent search function. Maybe these don’t move the needle as much as Wall Street analysts hope but these marginal improvements add up in a highly competitive space and I can’t see a world where mobile manufacturers turn their backs on ML.
- alar44 4y agoML isn't fizzling out. What planet do you live on?
- bradhe 4y agoThis actually seems a bit crazy to me. You're one of the most important figures leading the charge on cutting edge technology at _the_ industry leader...and you resign because they ask you to come to the office.
- wintermutestwin 4y ago>the most important figures leading the charge on cutting edge technology If he is indeed that important, just think how much his wasted time commuting to the office is worth and what it costs the field.
- nso95 4y agoIt's crazy that Apple would so easily throw away someone "leading the charge on cutting edge technology" just because they want him to show up at the same place every day.
- lesgobrandon 4y ago
- jasoneckert 4y agoIrony is not dead: https://youtu.be/GC5Gmkn92Bg https://youtu.be/GC5Gmkn92Bg
- _ph_ 4y agoThere are both good arguments for in-office work as for work from home. The first might give you better access to interaction with colleagues, the second more flexibility, less communte and often better productivity due to less interaction with colleagues :). No doubt there is a huge challenge for companies how to organize their work as they are reopening their offices. In general, I think they should allow for more time. No one likes to be forced back to the offices, but as more and more people return to the office, they might gain more attraction as a place to meet people again. The 3 day in-office work week might happen on its own quickly enough, forcing people might be quite counter-productive. The big elephant in the room in the case of Apple surely is their shiny new headquarter. They spent like 5 billion on it, and from what I read it wasn't even popular before the pandemic. Because it was designed by upper management, but somehow the people who should work there were not asked. With that amount of budget, it should be possible to design offices that people desparately want to work in. Hint: open offices aren't this :p
- atty 4y agoI get people who want to work from home. I get people who want to work from the office. I get people who want to do hybrid. The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves. (Obviously it depends on the role - if you’re doing hardware design you need to go in sometimes, of course.) I see some people in the macrumors comments saying “good riddance” like he’s being ungrateful or something. He’s a manager who’s standing up for what he believes is best for his team, and when he was overruled he did the only thing he could do to protest - quit. Good for him, and hopefully others follow suite. And as someone who works in the same field, he is absolutely right. ML teams right now are absolutely starved for good talent. Apple should be doing everything it can to hire and retain these people, including letting them live where they want.
- paulcole 4y ago>The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves 1. Is anyone suggesting this? Or do you mean “ones” as in companies mandating a return-to-office? 2. I mean isn’t that what work is? Being told what to do by somebody else in exchange for money and deciding if you’re going to do it or not? 3. Personally, I don’t get the people on here who pop off with “remote work is just a no-brained for everyone.”
- atty 4y ago1) Unfortunately yes, I have seen some of that. I mean both the companies and the sideline quarterbacks. 2) Of course, but I’d hope most companies would be smart enough to be paying for productive output, not for bodily location. 3) Agreed. I personally prefer remote work, but I know many people who prefer going in - either to better structure their day, or to see others, and they should be able to do that. And I believe a competent company structure can support both of those work patterns. (At companies large enough for that sort of complexity)
- paulcole 4y ago> 2) Of course, but I’d hope most companies would be smart enough to be paying for productive output, not for bodily location I think on this point, you’re seeing companies who value control, consistency, and predictability over maximum productivity. They just think that they’d rather get less done overall and have more control over the people they hire because they know not everyone will be more productive in a remote environment. There’s nothing wrong w/ that. It’s not a decision everyone will agree w/ but that’s why resignation letters exist.
- dmitrygr 4y agoNot terribly surprising. While other companies realized that they will lose this fight, Apple dug in their heels. While some provided flexibility and retained talent, Apple decided that the last two years never happened and that the talent that will walk as a result of this idiocy is expendable. The results will speak for themselves in the coming months.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoThat's unfortunate but there's thousands of equally qualified people who will gladly will their spot, and come into the office.
- Supermancho 4y agoThe chances that people in a given area have a specific skillset or are of the commensurate skill level for a position, pushes the compensation necessary to entice those "equally qualified people" upwards. The issues is the tradeoff of compensation for office time. If individuals want less office time than the company consensus on policy (which implies attempted negotiation), all they can do is quit. If the company wants to spend more, they can choose to do that and will likely have to. It's not uncommon that a position sits empty, for some time, after a high level exit. It's equally possible this person was already in a position of weak confidence. It's unlikely that the public will be made aware of that level of detail. It's not as simple as swapping in cheaper, available labor, in the interest of corporate profit.
- Der_Einzige 4y agoThere is literally NO ONE on EARTH qualified to fit Ian Goodfellows shoes. Hahahahaha you cracked me up with this one!
- ensan 4y agoWow, reading a few pages of mostly spiteful & angry (at Mr. Goodfellow) replies on macrumors.com was really eye-opening. Ordinary people seem to have no idea at all how much in-demand someone at the level of Ian Goodfellow is.
- steve_adams_86 4y agoReally. If someone like me who has a fraction of the ability and a much more common skill set is in high demand, I can’t imagine how easily he could find work. He’s going to find remote work no problem.
- hintymad 4y agoA theory is that VP+s love their teams to be in office. Their values are in talking to people all day long, and in-person meetings amplify the perceived values. Therefore, they do mandate returning-to-office policy. This also explains why companies argue how important in-person meetings are for productivity yet engineers are saying the opposite.
- munchler 4y agoIt’s simpler than that. Insecure managers feel anxious when their employees have the freedom to set their own work conditions and hours. It’s about controlling how and when work is done.
- mikece 4y agoI wonder if the flatter an organization is the more working from wherever works for them. The flatter the organization the less need there is for "management by walking around" by middle and upper managers.
- bonestamp2 4y agoI think it's ego. If there's no one around to make them feel important when they enter a room, then it doesn't stroke their ego the way it used to when everyone was in the office.
- hitovst 4y agoIt's amazing how bigoted some of the employees are. Having never witnessed the type of racism until recently when it has become en vogue, it's disgusting, and incredible how people admit their bigotry, and how others tolerate it. It is interesting that the employees seem to realize that before technology allowed for people to work remotely, it was more an issue of individual merit that determined who had which jobs. They'd probably not admit it, but that is consistent with their claims given the circumstances.
- softwaredoug 4y agoWhether you favor in office or remote, you have to admit our cost structures have fundamentally reoriented the last 2 years. Think of the commuting costs, living near/far from the office, the different types of day care options, etc etc that have shifted in the last two years. Imagine being told you’re going to get a 10% cut in pay due to the need to go in the office? That’s what RTO probably feels like to peoples pocket books.
- bsimpson 4y agoOr you can work at a place that will give you a pay cut if you move out of the immediate Bay Area counties. Then you get the pay cut either way.
- hiptobecubic 4y agoMy company will pay me more if I work from home in a different city that also doesn't have a local office or any of my team nearby. It's pretty frustrating.
- cyberlurker 4y agoThis is exactly right and it can be much more than 10%. And at the same time, many professionals can go out and land a new, remote job with a pay bump. I’ve seen it nonstop the last year. People are speaking with their feet and I love it.
- sanguy 4y agoGood point and 10% is low. Let’s say you are in Bay Area and 1 hour commute each way - so 2 hours a day. Even if you put in 10 hours at the office it’s still 20% lost time in the commute. 20% is a lot of your “working time” to be non-productive. And that is not quality time - that is stressful time that leads to burn out over time. A RTO concept should factor this in. RTO for many people means working more and the employer getting less of your brains best output. It is a loss/loss. Why would either side of the equation wants this? My team is fully WFH - 700 people globally - and the only time anyone is required to come into the office is when a job task can not be done remotely. We’ve also reduced our office footprint 70% in the process; with the savings going to a WFH monthly stipend. We also arrange two social events a month to keep the in person connections alive; with numerous smaller groups having TGIF’s or other sorts of activity clubs. Regus membership has given all the WFH folks a place to grab an office if they need to get out of the house for whatever reason. To get over the “are my employees slacking off?” We’ve put in a simple peer review system that is working well: 1) If you are assembling a team for a very challenging and demanding project who are your top 5 choices? 2) If you could give out a spot bonus who would you give it to and why? 3) Is there anyone you feel should be reduced from your team and why (optional)? This was bumpy as hell to get rolling but now working well. And yes, Q2 does drive quarterly spot bonuses based on responses.
- ThrowITout4321 4y agoI doubt that he quit just because he was forced to go back to the office. He was probably unhappy there for multiple reasons. Keep in mind that he can get a job anywhere and probably will get better pay if he even needs to work ever again. So quitting is not a big deal for him. So keep that in mind to anyone thinking they can do the same. It also speaks to the fact that no one is irreplaceable.
- egl2021 4y agoIf companies can figure out how to use a mostly remote workforce effectively, they can hire anywhere in the world with good Internet. They would no longer need to put an office where there are plenty of qualified workers; they could hire one-at-a-time without regard to geography. And if time zones are a problem, hire north-south rather than east-west. Rio de Janeiro, for example, is only one hour later than New York City. Over the short term there are arbitrage opportunities for tech workers moving out of high-cost and high-pay regions, but the equilibrium could be quite different.
- paulcole 4y ago> If companies can figure out how to use a mostly remote workforce effectively, they can hire anywhere in the world with good Internet. While technically true, you’re overlooking the tax, legal, and other issues this causes. A non-hurdle for Google, but a huge one for smaller businesses.
- jbverschoor 4y agoWell they just got robbed of >500GB of chips designs..
- jefftk 4y agoEvery time there's a news story about someone at a big company with the title "Director", headlines phrase it as if it's a much higher title than it actually is. Apple surely has many Director-level people working in ML.
- nikhizzle 4y agoI think the confusion for people outside of industry is between a director of the company (eg. board member) and a director-level employee. When I was there, Apple had 1 director for about 50 engineers (though certain people like Jordan Hubbard were director just because). 12,000 engineers gives us 240 directors of engineering. I'd say given the breadth of the software and hardware needed at Apple, maybe five of these are in ML.
- KKKKkkkk1 4y agoThere are many reasons why someone might resign four years after joining. [Hint: RSU grants vest over 4 years.]
- chrissnell 4y agoFor any decent employee, those are refreshed annually with a new grant that has a new four-year runway. If you're a good employee, the grants grow in size.
- dymk 4y agoThe director of machine learning at Apple doesn’t make decisions off of a four year vesting schedule. He’s not an L6.
- shadowgovt 4y agoOoh, free pickup for some enterprising company...
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y agoSome people are extremely sensitive to the issue of the remote work, like it is some kind of inalienable right, and any (perceived) threat to it makes them want to grab a pitchfork and proteat. I don't get it. Things are simple. The employer sets the terms, where you work and how the work is paid. The employee either accepts the terms or walks away. Sometimes the sides engage in negotiations, where the side with more leverage receives an advantage (like a valuable hire can get a pay raise our rights to work remote in an office-first company, for example). Why make so much drama out of it? If you don't like to work in office, find a remote job, end of story.
- judge2020 4y agoEspecially for someone in a director/lead position at Apple, it’s quite common for a change like this to be accompanied with an explanation to their team. MacRumors and The Verge are the ones who turned it into a story.
- andrewia 4y agoI think there's a few obvious responses to your comment. First of which is that switching jobs is not as easy as you make it sound, even in the tech industry. There's still a lot of effort that must be put into interviewing and it takes quite a few weeks unless you get lucky. It becomes even more difficult when you need arrangements due to a disability, visa sponsorship, future maternity/paternity leave, etc. Second, it's an expression of frustration. A company can have an excellent outlook, competent leadership, good technical innovation, and great financial health. But a deal-breaking change in arrangements (such as having to return to the office when that's difficult/uncomfortable for the employee) is saddening. It's natural to be intellectually/emotionally invested in your employer after putting effort into them and closely following their growth. Frustration is natural after seeing someone make a shortsighted decision, and most people will want to try and talk that person out of it.
- me_me_mu_mu 4y agoI totally get that but come on.. if you can get into FANG you literally don’t have any job security fears. Don’t mention edge cases that may affect a few people but for the vast majority? Please.. the most pampered group of workers in tech. I would understand if this was non tech, and I’m not familiar with outside of US, but this is a non issue. Btw speaking as a full time remote employee.
- gcheong 4y agoAll I know is that the reasons people give that they are leaving and the actual reasons can vary. This might be just as much about the state of Apple’s ML division as anything wfh related.
- JackFr 4y agoIt’s really hard to believe that Apple management is willing to act against their own interest. Is it worth considering that the self-reported productivity gains which dominate these comments are not objective and are colored by employees acting in their own interest? That maybe Apple managers know what they’re doing?
- da39a3ee 4y agoI understand that some managers and PMs whose jobs meeting people the whole time might think that office work is superior. But I've honestly been surprised that they lack the intelligence to see that many good software engineers work better alone in quiet environments.
- mensetmanusman 4y agoDoes Siri use machine learning? It is so far behind Alexa…
- nso95 4y agoWell...all modern speech recog uses ML
- ranjitcool1 4y ago
- civilized 4y agoDoesn't he know that serendipitous water cooler encounters and impromptu lunchroom brainstorming sessions are the only way to innovate? We should pretty much just replace the workplace with a water cooler called Serendipity and a lunchroom called Impromptu.
- ngc248 4y agohahaha ... havent laughed this much in a long while ... That would be the next evolution of workspaces after open plan. One giant cesspool err .. watercooler where everyone can sysnergize and regurgitate err... ideate.
- mbrodersen 4y agoCompanies that are not WFH flexible will be less competitive in the jobs market. It’s that simple.
- jksmith 4y agoI don't know about Apple, but I do have a ton of experience consulting for multiple F500's. Many at these companies who want people to come back to work are just middle managers who find it harder to justify their jobs since remote work has become so prevalent. They simply can't grasp how work can get done without them telling people what to do. And of course the easiest way to do that without requiring much thought is to see their underlings in person.
- code_runner 4y agoI do think this mirrors my office’s original logic for returning but they almost immediately became more flexible. At one point, returning to the office wasn’t mandatory but “good for our promotions etc”. When I’m in office few if any people actually give me marching orders… and when they do, I push back, correct them, and continue what I was doing. (We aren’t great at project management and my position luckily allows for this)
- shmerl 4y agoGood for him. Apple's push for "return to office" is stupid.
- th0ma5 4y agoVentilation ?
- Simon_O_Rourke 4y agoThe whole reckoning behind this is not organizational but aesthetic. How does it look if Apple spend a billion bucks on an office, and it's half empty because Bob from Oakland prefers spending his working day at home in a bathrobe and slippers. The work, more than likely, gets done just the same, but it's all about appearances.
- mslate 4y agoI have a great deal of empathy for Bob from Oakland.
- casefields 4y agoApple has plenty of bland nondescript office buildings they can close in the area and move those employees there.
- emptyparadise 4y agoWouldn't want to let the t*mporary contr*ctors into our beautiful head office.
- gorgoiler 4y agoIf you are part of a team that can be productive, remotely, then you are very lucky. I am not. We are in trouble as a tech business and have a very large piece of tech debt that we need to get over, this year. (We also have an amazing product and smart people invested in our growth. It’s one of those good problems to have, but it’s still a problem.) We experimented (a long time ago, before I joined) with an “open source model” of siloed teams who made internal releases to each other. This had the unfortunate side effect of hampering our release process and also, far worse, embedding a really unproductive them-vs-us culture that holds back our ability to ship on time. On a technical level, it’s kind of like the bad old days of when people all had their own branches, and all tried to merge at once in the week of the release. If you’re familiar with this anti-pattern then we are in a similar situation but with individual repositories instead of branches. Our team has a lot of veterans, many with the title architect, and all of whom are emotionally invested in the status quo being the right approach. There’s a lot of friction between us. Frankly this might not be the right team for me in the long run, but there are so many awesome people here as well that I want to make it work. We objectively have a problem shipping our product, and because most of the old guard work remotely it is nigh on impossible to effectively build consensus around making any kind of big change. It is very a hard ship sail. The saving grace? My manager and I go in three days a week. So does our VP Eng and the manager and tech lead of a couple of other important teams. We have whiteboard diagrams, 1:1 walks in the park, and chats in the kitchen. When we meet with the old guard, we sit together in a meeting room while they are on individual calls. I feel like we are getting somewhere, slowly, but an unsettling amount of time has been spent on how to effectively do staff-level persuasive tech-leadership, in the face of a highly talented but highly conservative cadre of senior engineers who keep themselves at arm’s length over Zoom.
- hobofromabroad 4y agoIt sounds more like the team is rather inexperienced for that kind of work environment. Communication, the overarching priorities and alignment are super important. I work for a German insurance company and we rolled out crazy amounts of stuff over the last two years and started a re-org that is actually going well. Also, emotional investment can be quite problematic. All the teams need to work on the overall goal. Having people fixated on their golden toy is a good way to crash into a hard wall.
- tayistay 4y agoWhen the pandemic started and everyone was on lockdown, there were very few cars on the roads around SF. I remember being able to see into the distance so clearly, it was surprising. I read that 2/3 of the SF Bay Area could work remotely. In the age of climate change (not to mention air pollution) we probably should insist on, or even mandate, remote work whenever possible. Supposed productivity benefits from in person work are not as important.
- dougmwne 4y agoYes, when you zoom out, this debate become quite ridiculous. WFH has already been proven to not destroy the company and many roles beyond dev can be done remotely. The amount of road building, carbon emissions, fossil fuel, and traffic congestion generated for this questionable value of gathering every day is pretty staggering. It's the kind of thing we will look back at in future years in disbelief that we could be so wantonly wasteful with the limited resources of our fragile biosphere.
- antirez 4y agoWorked remote 80% of my career. I understand the advantages, but here there is, I fear, an undervaluation of the advantages that seeing other coworkers at least a few days every week brings on the table. Especially if you are doing innovative, design work, to be on the same table from time to time, take the coffee break together, allows to "multiply" the ideas.
- IshKebab 4y agoI definitely agree. The WFH zealots risk a backlash because they seem incapable of acknowledging that there are benefits of working in an office. I still think if the commute wasn't a factor then working from home wouldn't remotely be a thing. Eliminating the commute is a pretty huge benefit though (unless you happen to live really close to work, which some people do).
- malwarebytess 4y agoWarning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for most of a software engineer's day to day there really is no unquestionable upside. I'll quit before I go back full time. I've never been happier or more fulfilled with my work/life balance, and I've never been more productive with my time. I'll even take a different remote position at a 20% pay cut and a reduction in equity, at least, to retain WFH. Most I'm willing to give is a day a week in office, and maybe temporarily longer in rare circumstances where the benefit in performance is clear.
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- mjan22640 4y agoIn my experience, young man at the start of their carrier are willing to go to great lengths to work from home. After they marry and get kids, they become willing to go great lengths to work from the office.
- cteiosanu 4y agoExactly the opposite from my experience.
- jstx1 4y agoThis sounds entirely backwards based on talking to many different people about it in the past couple of years.
- alex_suzuki 4y agoOther way round for me. Having more time for family/kids because I don’t have to commute is great. Also, starting out in a completely remote setting sounds a bit daunting to me.
- 4y ago
- greggman3 4y agorandom though. was walking around union square in SF today. It dead. Sooo many stores gone. Than walked down to the FiDi and it's dead too. With no one going to work the business that relied on the workers for business had to close up. It made me curious how to redistrict things. If those buildings turned into apartments the business would have a much better time and that area could be even more walkable
- seydor 4y agoRight now people are living a honeymoon moment for remote work , because it's not just remote, it's asyncrhonous. But as management is coming to terms with the reality of permanent remote, they will start using virtual tools that allow them to have a synchronous overview of what is happening. Something like working in second life or whatever zuck's Sims will look like. That shift to synchronous is going to make remote slighty more unpleasant (but still preferable)
- kkfx 4y agoThere are few points I do not see much discussed so far: - remote work, for jobs eligible to such model, does need a paradigm shift, it's not sustainable trying mimicking the in-office model in a "virtual" world. I see almost no discussion about that, especially in work division, outcome measuring, hw&sw vs hosted platforms etc terms. IMVHO that's a hyper central point to mainstream WFH for all eligible jobs; - remote work administrative aspects from beyond-borders (different tax systems, rules, TZs, ...) and "global wages" vs "local wages". Again that's HYPER important because before arriving to something established and well-run on scale enough to stabilize a new model we must expect tremendous backfires in revenues terms; - hybrid mess handling where companies have offices, with gears etc and have to move stuff back&forth AS WORKERS to handle less people, but still some, in the office and some from remote; - where to live, considering local services since we do not eat from remote do not have "virtual remote connections" etc, and how such areas can evolve in a reasonably short and mean timeframe because if we choose to relocate we choose typically with a certain care. Personally I choose few years before covid to leave a big city for a mountain area, served enough, near enough to the "civility" etc, I'm VERY happy of the choice even if I miss a significant slice of local in-person acculturated environment for discussions, interactions, surely social life is better here, but at a low cultural level, just parties, not much real technical, political, philosophical discussions aside are possible since simply there aren't enough mass of acculturated people nearby to do them. That's another central aspect: how can our demography can evolve if we are not all together at scale like before? - how a remote-first society can be organized, at least a general idea. Just see sabre rattling and crushing between two party, one for one against, is spectacle, but of no help.
- ilaksh 4y ago> real technical, political, philosophical discussions Do you know of another good place for that aside from HN?
- kkfx 4y agoIn a big city there are enough people to form a kind of apt circle of friends, perhaps around the uni. At least that happen for me, I still talk with some after 5 years but it's not the same as before... Talking in person with tea or coffee, decide to go out for a common dinner it's a thing, having a call just for acculturate discussion is another... Let's say I feel a bit of lack of "groups stimulus", while I have more time to think myself, draw new ideas, potential projects etc, it's not a net loss but still a certain loss, well compensated by other aspects of the sparse life in the nature. A thing still to be considered depending of age, career, family etc at personal level and another thing to be considered in general social terms to draw a new distributed society, we still need aggregation points, only perhaps not big nor generic as cities, like small poles who will be abandoned/redone from scratch at a certain point in time, but small enough and centered enough to been able to redo and abandon them at sustainable time and costs. So far I here exactly ZERO serious talks about a future society where WFH became mainstream for eligible jobs even on HN, just to say.
- LightG 4y agoGood for him. The more that stand up for this, the more businesses will consider its importance.
- mickotron 4y agoThis is the way. Go somewhere that allows you the flexibility you need.
- Gatsky 4y agoLooking at how the economy is going, leaner times can be expected. Unrelated to the article, but are there any data points on whether remote workers are more likely to get cut in a restructuring when a company needs to reduce costs?
- uwuemu 4y agoI don't really get the debate. Surely people recognize that Apple is one of the most left-wing friendly (worker rights etc., you know the deal) and accomodating places to work at, if you care about such things. Surely people recognize that Apple was generous with the whole work from home thing. So now some people don't want to go back to the office, which is understandable, but there's one little problem from Apple's point of view, well actually one massive problem if you're upper management at Apple: for all the talk about the positives of working of home, there is a bottom line and that is the fact that productivity is down. You can argument all day and night about how great WFH is, but if the management is seeing a drop in productivity, they will want you back at the office. THAT is why Apple (and others) is doing that. If you have a measurable productivity levels in your company (i.e. you're not Twitter), you should expect to be returning back to the office sooner or later because even if YOU are more productive, on average the productivity suffers with entire teams working from home. And it just makes sense. It really does. Even if you don't want it to. You can try to work hard and be focused, but not everyone can do that. I don't see people here talking about this often, but office isn't just a place for the employer to take advantage of you... it's a place where you're away from HOME on PURPOSE. You're supposed to get into a different head space, temporarily forget about your home life and issues and focus on work. How can you do that at home unless you have anything but a completely 100% supportive partner, no kids, no pets, no obligations or chores and an iron will? Most people don't have that... and for these people, working at the office will be more productive.
- phantomathkg 4y agoAre you an insider in Apple that have any proof to tell the productivity has gone down?
- seanjacobs1981 4y agoSorry but human beings aren't meant to live or work in isolation and no, Zoom does not cut it. Someone resigning would not change my mind, I'd say "don't let the door hit you on the way out becauase we have about 10,000 other people in line for your job who would happily work at Apple Park." Furthermore, it is NOT healhty to sit at home. It causes "cabin fever" and that's a well known and documented fact. It causes unhealthy habits. It IS healthy, however, to leave your home and get out into the world. This whole issue tells me how incredibly ridiculous people have become not to realize the small businesses they are literally killing off with their "i've got to stay home" attidude. How selfish of people to not realize that businesses around workplaces depend on the commerce. So basically it's just OK to say, "hey who cares about you small business owner, I am too lazy to commute and I've made a millione excuses to need to stay home and supposedly work." I can go into an office and get 50 times more productive things done interacting with real humans and working together. It's also fulfilling to socialize and if you are an introvert then it helps you that much more. It's just plain sad to see so many people whining on and on when they are literally damaging themselves from isolation....and video is NOT a replacement and never will be. Note also that the United States' productivity is going down....wonder why.
- tikiman163 4y agoI want to be clear I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm a software engineering team lead who likes both in person and remote work. I'm comfortable with having fully remote team members, I've successfully been a team lead for groups where some members were Europe, other I the US and still other in India all at the same time. Overall things worked so long as I focused on being a team lead and not on being the most productive senior/principal engineer. We actually had this going on both during and before the pandemic even started. I don't generally seeing an overwhelmingly compelling reason not to allow that. However, I still see problems that are difficult or even impossible to resolve. Even though I was able to maintain team velocity comparable to a fully in-person team there are significant downsides. First off, I have always overworked myself, but I don't think it's healthy and I discourage others from doing so. Leading a fully remote team required me to work more hours even when we were in the same time zone. Yes, you get back time from not having to commute, but on average my hours increased by more than my commute time when my teams were fully remote. I will summarize the root causes of this problem as I have been able to identify them. First, remote meetings are dramatically less productive regardless of their length the second there are more than 3 people involved. Someone will attempt to multi-task if any topic they are not heavily involved in gets brought up. In short, getting organized and ensuring everyone involved has received and retained important information becomes far more difficult and time concuming. Anything I tell a group larger than 3 will ultimately result in my having to repeat that information for at least 1 person, and the larger the group the more times I end up repeating that information. This increases the time I spend organizing my team to keep them productive from maybe 1/6th of my time to easily half. Given that I also need to train lower level developers to become higher level developers, this tends to reduce the time I have to develop by 1/2 to 2/3rds. Second, not having clear start and stop times makes it far more difficult for developers to manage their time effectively. I've seen senior devs that would normally have developed for 5 hours (plus meetings) and been done for the day jumpt to 10 hours and burn out. I've also seen a lot more junior devs try to work on a problem for 2-3 hours, feeling they can't interrupt seniors or mid level devs because of our online status, and then give up for the day. In either case, the odds that they quit and look for a different job shoots through the roof. This means developers that would otherwise have productive enjoyable careers are more frequently leaving the industry because they aren't in the upper 10% of people when it comes to self-management. I'm not saying remote work is a bad thing, but it's really important we understand their are trade offs, and that these trade offs either reduce the number of people we can work with, or may require us to work more hours than are healthy. To be completely clear, I don't advocate requiring people to come in, but when choosing an employer if everything else is equal I'm more likely to pick the company where everyone lives in the same city and we have the option to come into the office or not. I will especially choose them if I'm able to require that some people come in on certain days if I've identified them as someone that doesn't pay attention during meetings or has time management issues like overworking or giving up because they can't figure it out on their own.
- tech-sucker 4y agoI would say it is really a good decision, keeping in mind how Amazon and other big techs are almost 100% remote