37 ms·

PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub

873 points by protomyth 7y ago

temptemptemp111 7y ago
Talmudic reasoning: You're having sex for money? Illegal, you can go to jail! Oh there was a camera in the room and you're gonna show it to the world? Porn! You're doing a service to mankind!
nafizh 7y ago
Thank you Paypal. Porn is a disease on the society exploiting on vulnerable people. Any company concerned with mental health of the society shouldn't let these porn streaming companies use their infrastructure. Also, a private company is not compelled to let anyone use their infrastructure, if anything, it violates that company's first amendment rights.
- tamaharbor 7y ago
  Have you ever been with a girl?
- rationalfaith 7y ago
  As much a yc attracts "smart" people, they are usually plagued with a lack of wisdom. You only need to venture to yourbrainonporn.com to meet your rationalization's end. At least if you can read english.
denkmoon 7y ago
With any luck this will compel Pornhub to make a more free financial platform. They certainly have the technical capability.
thephyber 7y ago
Decent pun.
xvx 7y ago
‘Pulls Out’ Classy
kiterunner2346 7y ago
"...Pulls Out..."?! An improper metaphor since it was the performers who got screwed, not Pornhub. But, in the end, Pornhub _will_ be screwed (no pun intended).
magashna 7y ago
Would be interesting to see if this pushes PH to build their own infra top to bottom
- Justsignedup 7y ago
  necessity breeds innovation
  - OatMilkLatte 7y ago
    Porn breeds innovation. See also: Flash video.
- on_and_off 7y ago
  It would be awesome ! There is a long history of people getting screwed to the point of having their company go out of business because paypal decides that they will freeze their funds for 6 months or that they no longer want to be their payment platform. It would not be a big issue if there were 3 or 4 competitors .. but as things are, paypal is what people use to buy things online or to send money to a friend.
- thrower123 7y ago
  I'm not sure how they would avoid getting frozen out by Visa/Mastercard/Amex in turn
jhallenworld 7y ago
Good time to buy bitcoin..
mjevans 7y ago
A chilling effect on free speech. Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. It sadly looks like my favorite hope is still not ready, but I am hopeful that this is due to slow and careful development that will lead to a stable long term outcome. https://taler.net/en/faq.html https://taler.net/en/faq.html
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Stripe won't touch adult content, I've tried (chargeback ratio is very high, I don't blame them). Very hard to find processors who will work with adult content of any sort. The real problem is that person to person money transfers shouldn't be prohibited unless by law. Perhaps Pornhub, in the US at least, could use something like Zelle to mediate transfers between patrons and performers (using their bank account to make Zelle requests, and then distributing that out to performers with Zelle). At least until the Fed gets their ACH modernization act together and we get near real time payments.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    I think this is a US thing. I've tried to do chargebacks before in Europe because a website wouldn't stop billing me, and was told the only thing I could do is cut up the card and get issued a new one.
    - redblacktree 7y ago
      Chargebacks happen after the fact; they won't prevent the same merchant from charging you again in the future. (You can, of course, issue a chargeback on those payments as well)
      - robinson-wall 7y ago
        Your card issuer (at least in the UK) is obligated to block recurring payments from a particular merchant if you request it https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-...
jimnotgym 7y ago
A contributor once wrote on hn about the huge market for a porn friendly payment system. Key feature, must not look suspicious on credit card bill...
- emidln 7y ago
  These have existed for quite awhile. CCBill was the big player around 10 years ago. They take a slightly larger cut for the service relative to something like a Braintree or a Paypal.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  The issue here is that it needs to be easy for a person viewing their credit card bill to know that they paid for something... and not be super weird. I had a buddy who nearly did a chargeback against a club that put "E 11 EVN" on his bill... name is Eleven Club.
  - Disruptive_Dave 7y ago
    Most strip clubs do something like "Sully's Steakhouse" . edit....or so I'm told :)
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      Have they set the MCC to Restaurant too? I have to imagine that triggers bonus categories for dining on credit cards, like the 4X on the Amex Gold and 3X on Sapphire Reserve. That's a heck of a bonus category haha.
      - jaywalk 7y ago
        It's always Restaurant from my experience, but it's not like you can pay for dances with your credit card. Just food and drinks.
        ta999999171 7y ago
mrandish 7y ago
Perhaps an opportunity for Pornhub themselves to get into the payments business? I assume they have enough transactional volume and vendors to make it happen.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  My hunch is that would incur unwanted liability from FOSTA-SESTA [1]. Producing content and paying talent out directly is fairly straightforward for adult entertainment. There be dragons if you're attempting to build a marketplace to do something similar. "The Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act (SESTA) and Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA) are the U.S. Senate and House bills that as the FOSTA-SESTA package became law on April 11, 2018. They clarify the country's sex trafficking law to make it illegal to knowingly assist, facilitate, or support sex trafficking, and amend the Section 230 safe harbors of the Communications Decency Act (which make online services immune from civil liability for the actions of their users) to exclude enforcement of federal or state sex trafficking laws from its immunity. Senate sponsor Rob Portman had previously led an investigation into the online classifieds service Backpage (which had been accused of facilitating child sex trafficking), and argued that Section 230 was protecting its "unscrupulous business practices" and was not designed to provide immunity to websites that facilitate sex trafficking." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Enabling_Sex_Traffickers_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Enabling_Sex_Traffickers_...
  - normalnorm 7y ago
    "The land of the free"
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - ur-whale 7y ago
      > "The land of the free" To be filed in the same drawer as "don't be evil". As in: who still believes in stuff likes this in 2019?
    - 7y ago
ur-whale 7y ago
One more - in what is now a very long list - argument for bitcoin.
scarface74 7y ago
I’m the last person to jump on the bitcoin bandwagon, but this is one case where I think it’s warranted.
- egdod 7y ago
  Nothing better than receiving your salary in a token with huge minute-to-minute volatility.
  - greenhatman 7y ago
    Great for those of us who don't already have enough stress in our lives yet.
  - lawn 7y ago
    Sure beats not receiving a salary at all.
  - a13n 7y ago
    Crypto replaces a major painpoint (chargeback, getting 0% of your money) with a minor painpoint (volatility, losing or gaining <10% of your money). There are other cryptocurrencies (eg Tether) that follow USD (eg 1 Tether is almost always equal to $1.00 USD), to avoid issues with volatility. I guess another issue is that you'd have to pay taxes on any gains/losses between receiving your crypto and cashing it in for USD, and that would be pretty annoying to calculate manually. I'm not the biggest fan of crypto but I think it actually solves this problem pretty well. There are probably other solutions too though (like only accept debit cards / payment methods that can't be charged back).
    - Qwertystop 7y ago
      > There are other cryptocurrencies (eg Tether) that follow USD (eg 1 Tether is almost always equal to $1.00 USD), to avoid issues with volatility. One of us is behind the times on Tether; last I heard they were in pretty significant legal/financial trouble re: money laundering, not actually having most of the backing dollars they claimed to, and possibly market manipulation.
justinzollars 7y ago
Bitcoin will solve this problem.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Not until it's near as stable as the dollar it won't.
  - mirekrusin 7y ago
    It's easy to avoid this kind of problems: - convert to fiat - open sell order against fiat - convert to stable coin ...or just for PH to support stable coins internally. As weird as it sounds I honestly think they should pair with one/more exchanges to support low friction onboarding/exchange - who knows, maybe some of them will convert to traders! :)
  - justinzollars 7y ago
    There is pretty high liquidity, no need to save it. You could instantaneously buy/receive through coinbase. And have your dollars.
  - microtherion 7y ago
    And not until average confirmation times of a transaction drop significantly below the average duration of an erection.
  - a13n 7y ago
    Tether follows the dollar (1 Tether === $1.00 USD).
    - Qwertystop 7y ago
      Not anymore, is it? Last I heard they were in pretty significant legal trouble due to not actually having the 1:1 real-doller backing they claimed to, or other assets of equivalent value, among other issues.
      - 7y ago
craze3 7y ago
I'm working on a decentralized app to remedy these type of moves by big payment processors. The new flow I suggest is: BTC -> Coinbase -> PayPal. Withdrawals are instant & only subject to standard fees. The can funds can also be instantly converted to cash, via the PayPal Business Debit Card. References: [1] https://blog.coinbase.com/instant-paypal-withdrawals-now-available-for-all-u-s-customers-58b2958a13aa https://blog.coinbase.com/instant-paypal-withdrawals-now-ava... [2] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2959952-paypal-faq https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/295995... [3] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2109597-coinbase-pricing-fees-disclosures https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/210... [4] https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/business-debit-card https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/business-debit-card
- ur-whale 7y ago
  > The new flow I suggest is: BTC -> Coinbase -> PayPal The flow still can be censored. As a matter of fact, you now have two opportunities for your payment to get nixed.
  - waymore84 7y ago
    The point is to spend out of btc via means of PayPal though. The shift card died because Switzer land couldn't hold it up.
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      The issue is and always will be the fiat gateways. If you do sufficient volume, someone's going to snoop around and ask questions like, oh, I don't know "where did you get this money and what did you say your business does again?" BTC is not a solution to this problem either. Maybe for the buyer since they're low volume enough not to raise eyebrows one way or the other, but as the vendor it just won't help.
- makomk 7y ago
  If I remember rightly. Coinbase bans porn-related payments just like PayPal.
notacoward 7y ago
Ironic that the story is on a website called Vice.
kennickv 7y ago
This is the best title.
selimthegrim 7y ago
Sounds like Vice Ventures ought to fund a payment startup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21538235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21538235
fooxbar 7y ago
Bitcoin Cash to the rescue!
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Remind me again how you plan to pay your employees when all the fiat gateways also preclude this kind of transaction?
  - glenvdb 7y ago
    I think the lofty and idealistic "end goal" for cryptocurrencies is to be fiat independent, so you don't need any fiat on/off ramps and you will be able to use it for everyday purchases. Whether that will realistically happen or not I have no idea, but that's the promised land held onto for true believers.
gorgoiler 7y ago
What are the biggest cost centers for a new payment provider? Software engineers? Rack space? Dispute (fraud) resolution? Marketing?
- arcticbull 7y ago
  Risk and compliance, honestly. Margins are razor thin, for instance Square's most recent quarterly filings where they indicated transaction margins had them at ~1%. You mess up, you've gotta process $99 more for every $1 you lost. Compliance paperwork is expensive enough but you make a mistake and prepare to have some uncomfortable chats with the government.
- spookthesunset 7y ago
  Fraud. One of the factors in determining your interchange fees as a merchant is your risk profile. It is why a grocery store has a different fee structure than a gas station or a restaurant. Almost the entire industry is driven by risk profiles.
  - gorgoiler 7y ago
    It feels like there’s two kinds of fraud, and I think you mean both? (1) I buy a camera online, but the store mails me a brick. The payment provider steps in (at their own cost) to investigate and resolve the fraud, which is costly. (2) The technology of the payment provider itself is subverted. For example, someone clones the mag stripe on my 1980s credit card and goes on a spending spree. Again, the payment provider picks up the cost of hunting down the malefactors, and they also compensate me. Cost cost cost. When the payment system is cash, fraud is avoided by using vendors with good reputations, or at least with verifiable business names and addresses to allow legal action if they sell me a 24 megapixel brick. Protecting against subversion of the payment mechanism itself is up to me (keep my wallet safe) and the treasury (fancy holograms on bank notes.) With modern online payment systems, are they legally obliged to always be on the hook for the first type of fraud? Is the obligation because they are providing a credit line? (I think this is the case in UK law at least, with the Consumer Credit Act.) If the payment provider didn’t want to have to deal with that sort of fraud, do they just have to avoid looking like they are offering credit? I hope that we can assume that in any modern online system, the only occurrence of the second type of fraud is from insiders, as at launch (or at least, over time) the crypto is unlikely to be breakable on the wire / with card cloning / etc.
faissaloo 7y ago
Damaging the porn industry AND promoting crypto? Christmas came early.
mbdesign 7y ago
I know of Spankchain[1] who are working on solving this on the Ethereum network. Otherwise, I see DAI token being ideal for this coupled with locking your DAI in MakerDAO [2] to earn interest. [1] https://spankchain.com/ https://spankchain.com/ [2] https://cdp.makerdao.com/ https://cdp.makerdao.com/
- pentae 7y ago
  It's a shame nobody cares
cabaalis 7y ago
IANAL, why isn't a payment processor refusing to service a payment a form of tortious interference?
- mrosett 7y ago
  Refusing to facilitate isn’t interference.
linuxhansl 7y ago
Whatever you might think of the various professions... As long as it is legal, it seems the major payment service providers should not pass on their moral code onto everybody else. What's next? You get no water/power/whatever if you run a business that the service providers simply do not agree with?
- zamadatix 7y ago
  Water/power are utilities and are regulated differently than other industries. But your general question is an open debate. If you run a hosting company do you have to host things you disagree with? If you run a transaction company doy you have to exchange with parties you disagree with? What if a certain type of transaction is too high risk, do they have to do it anyways? Personally I'd like to see things lean more towards being agnostic to avoid amplification of the popular opinion but it isn't a cut and dry topic without corner cases or hard to define regulations.
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    If you run a shop, you can't decline service to democrats, even if disagree with them. You can't discriminate, that's the law. I don't see how is it radically different from running a hosting company.
    - HaloZero 7y ago
      In the United States I think you can actually. Nothing stops you. You can't discriminate based on a few criteria like race, age, gender (and depending on the state) sexual orientation.
      - paxswill 7y ago
        Even this depends. In DC political affiliation is a protected class. https://ohr.dc.gov/protectedtraits https://ohr.dc.gov/protectedtraits
        7y ago
hychoi99 7y ago
Good. Porn is poison to society
- simonswords82 7y ago
  Why?
  - rationalfaith 7y ago
    yourbrainonporn.com has not only research but a vast population of ex-porn users. If you claim any counter argument on its effect after that, then I question one's honesty to seek the truth.
    - jascii 7y ago
      Sure, I bite: The site you refer to is an book advert and most of its premises have been disproven in peer reviewed research.
      - rationalfaith 7y ago
        I see pro-porn lobby is strong here. For other readers, website is backed up by reddit.com/r/nofap which has 500k+ users who are quitting or quit porn. Countless testimonies. Same website has 75+ peer reviewed research papers: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/porn-use-sex-addiction-studies/studies-linking-porn-use-or-porn-sex-addiction-to-sexual-dysfunctions-lower-arousal-and-lower-sexual-relationship-satisfaction/#less https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articl... You may be paid to lobby for porn, but it only takes truth to undo your lies.
        jascii 7y ago
        Ah, the first thing that comes to mind when someone disagrees with you is accusing them of being a paid shill..
ashelmire 7y ago
Sounds like a great opportunity to start another payment service. PornHub already has a strong dev team, from what I understand, and it would probably be relatively easy for them.
aazaa 7y ago
Financial deplatforming is a monster, long-term trend to watch over the next decades. Deplatforming happens with sex workers. It also happens in the US marijuana industry. It happens with perfectly legal political content. The number of ways in which someone, somewhere will be offended by products or services for sale is growing, driven by a rapidly improving worldwide communication network and delivery system, and by people terrified of the change that brings. The response by PayPal and many others has been to cut service. With each case, the circle of people finding themselves cut off from the traditional economy grows. Bitcoin is often criticized for its lack of use cases. I find a very high correlation between the strength of this belief and lack of awareness of financial deplatforming in its many guises.
- bcheung 7y ago
  I've had several friends in the adult industry have their checking accounts closed at a several major banks as well. Traditional banking should definitely not be discriminating against fully legal activities.
  - geomark 7y ago
    This is the thing I find very disturbing. That an industry as highly regulated and essential to every day life as banking can pick and choose based on management's moral choices.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - short_sells_poo 7y ago
      It's not a moral choice. It's a case of the business is not worth the hassle. KYC rules mean the bank is on the hook if they are found to harbor ill gotten gains and the sex industry had a some troubles in the past, while not producing enough volume on an individual level to make it worthwhile for a bank to overlook things.
      - 7y ago
solarkraft 7y ago
There are so many stories of small time vendors just thousands of $ of funds frozen out of nowhere, with no way of contacting PayPal about it. What is their incentive to do this? Is PayPal in the business of randomly hassling people? Is it for the entertainment of some executive?
justboxing 7y ago
Calling Sex Workers 'Models' is kinda rich.
- rationalfaith 7y ago
  One need only look at the STDs impacting each profession to clearly see models != sex slaves (uh I mean "workers" uh i mean human trafficking)
- lonelappde 7y ago
  They so stuff for people to look at at sometimes copy. That's modelling.
fowl2 7y ago
Presumably there's a reason that payment processors have straight up ban customers instead of increasing fees to cover costs? I mean different industries already have different risk profiles and fees. I can think of an analogy to interest rates, which vary tremendously depending on risk.
pkaye 7y ago
How much is it a issue of chargebacks?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rationalfaith 7y ago
Porn is ripe with human trafficking and its consumption is violently destructive to individuals and relationships. Source: http://yourbrainonporn.com/ http://yourbrainonporn.com/ In the future, when people stop acting so ignorant, it'll be categorized as a threat to society in corrupting objective, rational and clear thinking. Everything in extremes is bad, even freedom.
- Jamwinner 7y ago
  Are you here just to troll?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    No, GP is surprisingly correct, and I’m actually kinda surprised that HN just jumped right to downvotes. But I guess I shouldn’t be. When you attack someone’s heart they writhe in pain. Calling cigarettes “adult pacifiers” for example will really offend someone who is enslaved by cigarettes, even though it’s true. Pointing out the danger and seriousness of today’s horrible porn epidemic will do nothing in a crowd of people enslaved to unchastity in any of its forms except incite their futile wrath. Which is sad, because it’s supposed to help them realize they’re enslaved. Maybe for some it will, and they’ll ask Jesus to ransom them. I applaud you GP, God bless you.
    - therealx 7y ago
      I don't smoke (never have, tried it, not for me), but I still think calling them “adult pacifiers” is an over the top, intentionally inflammatory statement that's not true. If anything, it makes your very real point that people should stop smoking seem ridiculous.
      - sdegutis 7y ago
        You're right, it's not true. Babies use pacifiers because they haven't had time to learn how to sooth themselves yet, or how to deal with stress properly. Adults use smoking for the same reason, but they have had time to develop self-control and discipline so that they can respond properly to stress. So it's unfair to babies to call cigarettes adult pacifiers. But I mentioned it in this thread because it's very related to "adult content" which shouldn't rightly be called "adult" since it's based on impulsivity and lack of self-control or discipline, and based on a desire to pacify themselves. The word pacify comes from the Latin word for peace, and "adult content" enslaves people by making them feel reliant on it for their internal peace, just like they would a cigarette or pacifier. Pornography is a curse and a scourge to souls. It enslaves them. If only they knew about Jesus Christ and his mercy and grace! I know at least a few men who are real men, who are able to withstand the physical and emotional forces that press upon their hearts, and are able to withstand the storm of lust that comes upon them like a thief in the night. This world needs more real men, men of courage, men of valor. Men who can lead others, because they themselves are not led by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, or the pride of life.
blfr 7y ago
Didn't Pornhub "verify" an account of a 15 year "model"? https://twitter.com/PornhubHelp/status/1189445175929647104 https://twitter.com/PornhubHelp/status/1189445175929647104 That will probably give a pause to any payment provider.
wufufufu 7y ago
Square and Cash App now is your time. You talk about economic empowerment but are you really bout that life?
- nickstinemates 7y ago
  Doubt. Porn is one thing, but, to take a moral public stand in the same year of the Chef/Github/ICE controversy seems risky.
arrty88 7y ago
They should use Spankcoin
t-h-e-chief 7y ago
One of the many reasons why I hate PayPal, Visa and MasterCard
jascii 7y ago
I wonder how much money PayPal will make off of the interest on these frozen funds..
goblin89 7y ago
How thorough is Pornhub’s KYC? In a business like that it may be quite difficult to detect exploitation. If they don’t strive do a good job at it (which doesn’t especially align with maximizing revenue), PayPal’s decision may be hard to criticize.
kreck 7y ago
Reminds me of this: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... Private companies have no incentive to take a stand for individual freedom and will always bow before the demands of a (loud) minority
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
levismaina 7y ago
An alternative would be a system like M-Pesa. It's based on your personal phone line using the SIM toolkit, though there's also an app. Transactions can only be carried out on the phone with the SIM installed though. It's great for personal transfers, and many in Kenya already use it to pay sex workers (usually cam girls selling nudes). Corporates can have numbers (called paybill) where payments are made, though they are vulnerable to government interference. Safaricom (the network carrier running the M-Pesa platform) has already been ordered to shut down accounts belonging to betting firms. But for personal transactions, regulation is hard since nobody can tell why you sent a certain person money. M-Pesa has never quite gained traction outside Kenya though.
asmithmd1 7y ago
Altered name of story, actually:”Paypall pulls out of Pornhub”
rhizome 7y ago
See, if you have zillions of dollars there all kinds of financial instruments that harm society (say, by reducing taxes paid), but any vice the little people can partake in, either as producers or consumers, well, we have to keep that on a short leash. Or kill it. The financial industry's policies around sex and pot need a reboot. It's ridiculous what they're restricting. "I Hope PayPal's Dick Falls Off" https://gizmodo.com/i-hope-paypals-dick-falls-off-1839870796 https://gizmodo.com/i-hope-paypals-dick-falls-off-1839870796
cryptozeus 7y ago
I wonder how these kinds of trends will impact bitcoin and crypto. May be this is good for crypto currencies.
dextralt 7y ago
>"... is a private company and it is their right to refuse service to anyone" >"Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences" >"en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_fallacy" Nothing is out of the order.
- gnulinux 7y ago
  Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily neutral. We can still argue this development being negative, for reasons unrelated to "freedom of speech".
  - apta 7y ago
    We can also argue how it's a positive development.
jccalhoun 7y ago
I'm surprised paypal ever worked with pornhub because they have always been skitish about pornography. More than a decade ago I was given a Girls Gone Wild dvd and sold it on ebay only to find out that paypal didn't allow my buyer to pay for pornography. (The seller just used paypal to directly send me money that wasn't tied to ebay so it worked out in the end)
adam791 7y ago
Banks and other financial institutions are all about minimizing risk. If there is a risk that an account enables sex trafficking or money laundering there may be an internal policy to close the account as well as an obligation under anti money laundering laws to report it to the government. It comes down to the risk appetite of the bank. The bank stands to be fined if it is found not to have reported on suspicious activity and there is reputational risk as well. This is the reason a lot of banks would choose to de-risk and close the accounts.
nintendo1889 7y ago
I am vehemently against the illiterate rubbish posted on vice but this article is an exception.
habosa 7y ago
I hate that any online company can set arbitrary Terms of Service which they know for a FACT I have not read (I didn't click) and then decide to pull the rug out from me at any time because of that. These companies are seriously important in our lives. If you take away my payment source or my email or whatever you are potentially setting me on a path to ruin. I don't know what the answer is but I do think these companies should be required to have an appeal process of some kind that's regulated. They have so much power.
- gorgoiler 7y ago
  Even if you did click to accept the terms of service, their server knows you probably didn’t read it. They know exactly how long it was between you being served the contract, and you accepting it. Clearly if that time is anything under a number of minutes or hours you can’t possibly be agreeing to the contract and so they should be duty bound to refuse service. I look forward to a test case where a judge rules a terms-of-service contract unenforceable because the vendor logged that I read it in 3.2 seconds and accepted that as me having read it. Or maybe it’s time to start being that person again, who reads contracts slowly and in full before signing.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Actually I’d suggest we all take some time to learn the law. Actual legal practices and whatever. I’m increasingly of the impression that lawyers are the real first class citizens of a constitutional government.
ganitarashid 7y ago
There’s always bitcoin
throwaway122378 7y ago
Where’s the MeToo movement????? Disgrace that corporate America can get away with making their own laws when they want
yunesj 7y ago
I'm surprised that people suddenly think that banks aren't greedy enough to profit from the porn industry! Maybe the reason PayPal and so many other companies won't service adult industries is that there are laws that put them within arms reach of criminal liability? On a related note, this reminds me of Operation Choke Point (2013-2017), where the DOJ harassed banks that did business with customers in legal, but "undesirable", industries [1]. [1] https://cei.org/blog/operation-choke-point-targets-porn-and-firearms-potentially-violating-constitution https://cei.org/blog/operation-choke-point-targets-porn-and-... [2] https://reason.com/2014/04/28/doj-operation-chokepoint-and-porn-stars/ https://reason.com/2014/04/28/doj-operation-chokepoint-and-p...
- rpmisms 7y ago
  What a legendary name for an operation.
unreal37 7y ago
17 years ago, my business partners and I were approached by a porn website looking to get their website redone. (We didn't take the job, but it was an interesting meeting.) He said that his biggest problem was "refunds". It seems it was a common thing for people to buy his service (access to porn), and then a few days later claim to the credit card company that it was an unauthorized charge. He told a story of an irate wife calling him on the phone one day and demanding the charge be taken off her husband's credit card bill. She was insistent that there was "no way" her husband would sign up for a porn website. Well of course he did (or was it their son?). But he couldn't admit it to his wife. And so she called the office of the porn website to complain. I'm sure that hasn't changed 17 years later. Credit card chargebacks must still be a huge problem. Chargebacks make it a customer service nightmare. One of the highest refund rates that credit cards get, the highest incidence of actual fraud (charges that really weren't authorized), undisclosed recurring charges, etc. Still, cutting off service to the models seems unfair. But refusing to deal with the websites themselves actually has underlying business reasons other than morality.
- johnpowell 7y ago
  I have signed up for trials just because I wanted to grab a certain clip. And while I was in there I would download as much as I can and then cancel. And there is also that once you are done watching the last thing you want to do is watch more. And did I just pay for that? Wasn't worth it. Family Guy sums it up nicely. https://youtu.be/IzhIiJJdD9g https://youtu.be/IzhIiJJdD9g
ryanmarsh 7y ago
“models”
cetico 7y ago
SpankChain.com may be a alternative?
tibbydudeza 7y ago
I stopped using Paypal a while back ... don't won't any bizarre US cultural norms and govt politics affecting my choices.
will_crusher 7y ago
The Adult industry has always been pretty hot on emerging tech, whilst a shitty move from Paypal, Im sure that they might move to something a little less standard.
_pmf_ 7y ago
If Brave/BAT plays its cards right ... look at the top 2 entry at https://batgrowth.com/publishers/website https://batgrowth.com/publishers/website
mola 7y ago
Talk about one sided agenda driven reporting... Vice is such a sad excuse of journalism. Too bad it is so representative of the entire media world. Most of us forget something different can exist.
- mola 7y ago
  To be clear, there are many issues with this industry, most players are very sketchy especially how they treat the performers. Thats part of the reason why mainstream businesses don't want anything to do with it. Maybe if they'll clean up their act and get rid of the criminal elements, an article with this tone would be warranted.
commandersaki 7y ago
Sounds like an opportunity for Mindgeek / Manwin to build their own payment system.
roddux 7y ago
Good, hopefully it hurts the porn industry as a whole.
tiku 7y ago
It really sucks if your money is being seized. I'm now in a situation at MisterTango where they froze my assets because i need do show where my bitcoin money came from. The power they have over you is so great, it really makes you sick.
billpg 7y ago
"Models"? They're modelling?
classified 7y ago
If you give the philistines the power to terrorize their fellow beings, they will.
ghego1 7y ago
Having a legal background, I would really like to evaluate the grounds for a class action for discrimination. Legal tech companies are increasingly taking moral stands, poorly motivated on dubious reasons, on legitimate and lawful activities, while at the same time the industry has a tremendous responsibility in enabling hate speech and gals information.
Mate2Mate 7y ago
Does nobody know about Nano yet? Instantly-confirmed, immutable, secure feeless payments. All the model needs to do is display the Nano address or QR code in their backdrop, or on their web page. That's it - then receive, and possibly instantly react to, their instant notifications of payment receipt in their https://natrium.io https://natrium.io wallet. Simples. Sod VISA and PayPal and their charges and censorship. Those are obsolete now that the Nano Peer-to-Peer digital currency exists. (This was, after all, Satoshi Nakamoto's original vision - that Bitcoin, sadly, can't fulfil).
octosphere 7y ago
There is an alternative called Liberapay[0] but I haven't tried it, so I can't vouch for it. There is also Flattr[1], but Flattr is more for small micropayments to show your appreciation for a project or piece of software (not to mention you need a Paypal account to cash out your earnings). There's also things like Buy Me A Coffee[2], but again, centered around small micropayments (I imagine these performers need more than a coffee, although when you have several fans buying you a coffee it's a good gig). Also: I'm surprised nobody is talking about Patreon[3] (Prolly against their terms of service too though) [0] https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ [1] https://flattr.com/ https://flattr.com/ [2] https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ [3] https://www.patreon.com/ https://www.patreon.com/
frankzen 7y ago
Yet people still refuse to acknowledge permissionless crypto as an alternate form of exchange. Instead of sticking it to the Man, they want to stick to the Man until the bitter end!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
sk84life 7y ago
It's really disturbing how your "cash register" can dictate what you can sell ? I hope blockchain payments will come soon as possible to destroy these slow, old school, opinionated payment gateways. We are not free, we cannot have opinions or say publicly anything against the system.. We are living like any other communist country. Sad sad situation !
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
michannne 7y ago
And this is where Square & Patreon's toe-dipping shows it's effects. You can NEVER. N-E-V-E-R allow an organization to have that much power and then not say anything just because they are targeting groups that you happen to also be against, because in the end, they will get a taste of the power they wield, the control they have, and they will abuse it.
Israhell 7y ago
A side note, pornography is a weapon and sexual liberation is a form of political control. See It's usage against Palestinians by the Jewish ethno-state and in Venezuela. The left essentially did a deal with the state, if we get to engage in sexual degeneracy and we won't criticize your political policy. Read Libido Dominandi - Sexual "Liberation" & Political Control.
hackbinary 7y ago
This just lends more evidence to the view that the system is rigged.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dingo_bat 7y ago
It's all fine guys it's a private company. Just like how all SV companies deplatform political voices that don't match theirs. All in a days work!
Jnr 7y ago
Since I tend to read ToS and other agreements prior to signing, I was quite surprised to see a similar restriction for Revolut. In their case it is actually phrased in a way that makes it seem like you are not even allowed to pay for pornographic content with Revolut, not just receive money for it. Not a problem for me personally but why would payment card providers make such restrictions? It had some other weird restrictions as well.

873 points by protomyth 7y ago

Talmudic reasoning: You're having sex for money? Illegal, you can go to jail! Oh there was a camera in the room and you're gonna show it to the world? Porn! You're doing a service to mankind!

nafizh 7y ago

Thank you Paypal. Porn is a disease on the society exploiting on vulnerable people. Any company concerned with mental health of the society shouldn't let these porn streaming companies use their infrastructure. Also, a private company is not compelled to let anyone use their infrastructure, if anything, it violates that company's first amendment rights.

tamaharbor 7y ago
Have you ever been with a girl?
rationalfaith 7y ago
As much a yc attracts "smart" people, they are usually plagued with a lack of wisdom. You only need to venture to yourbrainonporn.com to meet your rationalization's end. At least if you can read english.

denkmoon 7y ago

With any luck this will compel Pornhub to make a more free financial platform. They certainly have the technical capability.

thephyber 7y ago

Decent pun.

xvx 7y ago

‘Pulls Out’ Classy

kiterunner2346 7y ago

"...Pulls Out..."?! An improper metaphor since it was the performers who got screwed, not Pornhub. But, in the end, Pornhub _will_ be screwed (no pun intended).

magashna 7y ago

Would be interesting to see if this pushes PH to build their own infra top to bottom

Justsignedup 7y ago
necessity breeds innovation
- OatMilkLatte 7y ago
  Porn breeds innovation. See also: Flash video.
on_and_off 7y ago
It would be awesome ! There is a long history of people getting screwed to the point of having their company go out of business because paypal decides that they will freeze their funds for 6 months or that they no longer want to be their payment platform. It would not be a big issue if there were 3 or 4 competitors .. but as things are, paypal is what people use to buy things online or to send money to a friend.
thrower123 7y ago
I'm not sure how they would avoid getting frozen out by Visa/Mastercard/Amex in turn

jhallenworld 7y ago

Good time to buy bitcoin..

mjevans 7y ago

A chilling effect on free speech. Real alternatives to paypal and credit cards need to enter the market. It sadly looks like my favorite hope is still not ready, but I am hopeful that this is due to slow and careful development that will lead to a stable long term outcome. https://taler.net/en/faq.html https://taler.net/en/faq.html

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Stripe won't touch adult content, I've tried (chargeback ratio is very high, I don't blame them). Very hard to find processors who will work with adult content of any sort. The real problem is that person to person money transfers shouldn't be prohibited unless by law. Perhaps Pornhub, in the US at least, could use something like Zelle to mediate transfers between patrons and performers (using their bank account to make Zelle requests, and then distributing that out to performers with Zelle). At least until the Fed gets their ACH modernization act together and we get near real time payments.
- thu2111 7y ago
  I think this is a US thing. I've tried to do chargebacks before in Europe because a website wouldn't stop billing me, and was told the only thing I could do is cut up the card and get issued a new one.
  - redblacktree 7y ago
    Chargebacks happen after the fact; they won't prevent the same merchant from charging you again in the future. (You can, of course, issue a chargeback on those payments as well)
    - robinson-wall 7y ago
      Your card issuer (at least in the UK) is obligated to block recurring payments from a particular merchant if you request it https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-...

jimnotgym 7y ago

A contributor once wrote on hn about the huge market for a porn friendly payment system. Key feature, must not look suspicious on credit card bill...

emidln 7y ago
These have existed for quite awhile. CCBill was the big player around 10 years ago. They take a slightly larger cut for the service relative to something like a Braintree or a Paypal.
WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
The issue here is that it needs to be easy for a person viewing their credit card bill to know that they paid for something... and not be super weird. I had a buddy who nearly did a chargeback against a club that put "E 11 EVN" on his bill... name is Eleven Club.
- Disruptive_Dave 7y ago
  Most strip clubs do something like "Sully's Steakhouse" . edit....or so I'm told :)
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    Have they set the MCC to Restaurant too? I have to imagine that triggers bonus categories for dining on credit cards, like the 4X on the Amex Gold and 3X on Sapphire Reserve. That's a heck of a bonus category haha.
    - jaywalk 7y ago
      It's always Restaurant from my experience, but it's not like you can pay for dances with your credit card. Just food and drinks.
      - ta999999171 7y ago

mrandish 7y ago

Perhaps an opportunity for Pornhub themselves to get into the payments business? I assume they have enough transactional volume and vendors to make it happen.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
My hunch is that would incur unwanted liability from FOSTA-SESTA [1]. Producing content and paying talent out directly is fairly straightforward for adult entertainment. There be dragons if you're attempting to build a marketplace to do something similar. "The Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act (SESTA) and Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA) are the U.S. Senate and House bills that as the FOSTA-SESTA package became law on April 11, 2018. They clarify the country's sex trafficking law to make it illegal to knowingly assist, facilitate, or support sex trafficking, and amend the Section 230 safe harbors of the Communications Decency Act (which make online services immune from civil liability for the actions of their users) to exclude enforcement of federal or state sex trafficking laws from its immunity. Senate sponsor Rob Portman had previously led an investigation into the online classifieds service Backpage (which had been accused of facilitating child sex trafficking), and argued that Section 230 was protecting its "unscrupulous business practices" and was not designed to provide immunity to websites that facilitate sex trafficking." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Enabling_Sex_Traffickers_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Enabling_Sex_Traffickers_...
- normalnorm 7y ago
  "The land of the free"
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ur-whale 7y ago
    > "The land of the free" To be filed in the same drawer as "don't be evil". As in: who still believes in stuff likes this in 2019?
  - 7y ago

ur-whale 7y ago

One more - in what is now a very long list - argument for bitcoin.

scarface74 7y ago

I’m the last person to jump on the bitcoin bandwagon, but this is one case where I think it’s warranted.

egdod 7y ago
Nothing better than receiving your salary in a token with huge minute-to-minute volatility.
- greenhatman 7y ago
  Great for those of us who don't already have enough stress in our lives yet.
- lawn 7y ago
  Sure beats not receiving a salary at all.
- a13n 7y ago
  Crypto replaces a major painpoint (chargeback, getting 0% of your money) with a minor painpoint (volatility, losing or gaining <10% of your money). There are other cryptocurrencies (eg Tether) that follow USD (eg 1 Tether is almost always equal to $1.00 USD), to avoid issues with volatility. I guess another issue is that you'd have to pay taxes on any gains/losses between receiving your crypto and cashing it in for USD, and that would be pretty annoying to calculate manually. I'm not the biggest fan of crypto but I think it actually solves this problem pretty well. There are probably other solutions too though (like only accept debit cards / payment methods that can't be charged back).
  - Qwertystop 7y ago
    > There are other cryptocurrencies (eg Tether) that follow USD (eg 1 Tether is almost always equal to $1.00 USD), to avoid issues with volatility. One of us is behind the times on Tether; last I heard they were in pretty significant legal/financial trouble re: money laundering, not actually having most of the backing dollars they claimed to, and possibly market manipulation.

justinzollars 7y ago

Bitcoin will solve this problem.

EpicEng 7y ago
Not until it's near as stable as the dollar it won't.
- mirekrusin 7y ago
  It's easy to avoid this kind of problems: - convert to fiat - open sell order against fiat - convert to stable coin ...or just for PH to support stable coins internally. As weird as it sounds I honestly think they should pair with one/more exchanges to support low friction onboarding/exchange - who knows, maybe some of them will convert to traders! :)
- justinzollars 7y ago
  There is pretty high liquidity, no need to save it. You could instantaneously buy/receive through coinbase. And have your dollars.
- microtherion 7y ago
  And not until average confirmation times of a transaction drop significantly below the average duration of an erection.
- a13n 7y ago
  Tether follows the dollar (1 Tether === $1.00 USD).
  - Qwertystop 7y ago
    Not anymore, is it? Last I heard they were in pretty significant legal trouble due to not actually having the 1:1 real-doller backing they claimed to, or other assets of equivalent value, among other issues.
    - 7y ago

craze3 7y ago

I'm working on a decentralized app to remedy these type of moves by big payment processors. The new flow I suggest is: BTC -> Coinbase -> PayPal. Withdrawals are instant & only subject to standard fees. The can funds can also be instantly converted to cash, via the PayPal Business Debit Card. References: [1] https://blog.coinbase.com/instant-paypal-withdrawals-now-available-for-all-u-s-customers-58b2958a13aa https://blog.coinbase.com/instant-paypal-withdrawals-now-ava... [2] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2959952-paypal-faq https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/295995... [3] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2109597-coinbase-pricing-fees-disclosures https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/210... [4] https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/business-debit-card https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/business-debit-card

ur-whale 7y ago
> The new flow I suggest is: BTC -> Coinbase -> PayPal The flow still can be censored. As a matter of fact, you now have two opportunities for your payment to get nixed.
- waymore84 7y ago
  The point is to spend out of btc via means of PayPal though. The shift card died because Switzer land couldn't hold it up.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    The issue is and always will be the fiat gateways. If you do sufficient volume, someone's going to snoop around and ask questions like, oh, I don't know "where did you get this money and what did you say your business does again?" BTC is not a solution to this problem either. Maybe for the buyer since they're low volume enough not to raise eyebrows one way or the other, but as the vendor it just won't help.
makomk 7y ago
If I remember rightly. Coinbase bans porn-related payments just like PayPal.

notacoward 7y ago

Ironic that the story is on a website called Vice.

kennickv 7y ago

This is the best title.

selimthegrim 7y ago

Sounds like Vice Ventures ought to fund a payment startup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21538235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21538235

fooxbar 7y ago

Bitcoin Cash to the rescue!

arcticbull 7y ago
Remind me again how you plan to pay your employees when all the fiat gateways also preclude this kind of transaction?
- glenvdb 7y ago
  I think the lofty and idealistic "end goal" for cryptocurrencies is to be fiat independent, so you don't need any fiat on/off ramps and you will be able to use it for everyday purchases. Whether that will realistically happen or not I have no idea, but that's the promised land held onto for true believers.

gorgoiler 7y ago

What are the biggest cost centers for a new payment provider? Software engineers? Rack space? Dispute (fraud) resolution? Marketing?

arcticbull 7y ago
Risk and compliance, honestly. Margins are razor thin, for instance Square's most recent quarterly filings where they indicated transaction margins had them at ~1%. You mess up, you've gotta process $99 more for every $1 you lost. Compliance paperwork is expensive enough but you make a mistake and prepare to have some uncomfortable chats with the government.
spookthesunset 7y ago
Fraud. One of the factors in determining your interchange fees as a merchant is your risk profile. It is why a grocery store has a different fee structure than a gas station or a restaurant. Almost the entire industry is driven by risk profiles.
- gorgoiler 7y ago
  It feels like there’s two kinds of fraud, and I think you mean both? (1) I buy a camera online, but the store mails me a brick. The payment provider steps in (at their own cost) to investigate and resolve the fraud, which is costly. (2) The technology of the payment provider itself is subverted. For example, someone clones the mag stripe on my 1980s credit card and goes on a spending spree. Again, the payment provider picks up the cost of hunting down the malefactors, and they also compensate me. Cost cost cost. When the payment system is cash, fraud is avoided by using vendors with good reputations, or at least with verifiable business names and addresses to allow legal action if they sell me a 24 megapixel brick. Protecting against subversion of the payment mechanism itself is up to me (keep my wallet safe) and the treasury (fancy holograms on bank notes.) With modern online payment systems, are they legally obliged to always be on the hook for the first type of fraud? Is the obligation because they are providing a credit line? (I think this is the case in UK law at least, with the Consumer Credit Act.) If the payment provider didn’t want to have to deal with that sort of fraud, do they just have to avoid looking like they are offering credit? I hope that we can assume that in any modern online system, the only occurrence of the second type of fraud is from insiders, as at launch (or at least, over time) the crypto is unlikely to be breakable on the wire / with card cloning / etc.

faissaloo 7y ago

Damaging the porn industry AND promoting crypto? Christmas came early.

mbdesign 7y ago

I know of Spankchain[1] who are working on solving this on the Ethereum network. Otherwise, I see DAI token being ideal for this coupled with locking your DAI in MakerDAO [2] to earn interest. [1] https://spankchain.com/ https://spankchain.com/ [2] https://cdp.makerdao.com/ https://cdp.makerdao.com/

pentae 7y ago
It's a shame nobody cares

cabaalis 7y ago

IANAL, why isn't a payment processor refusing to service a payment a form of tortious interference?

mrosett 7y ago
Refusing to facilitate isn’t interference.

linuxhansl 7y ago

Whatever you might think of the various professions... As long as it is legal, it seems the major payment service providers should not pass on their moral code onto everybody else. What's next? You get no water/power/whatever if you run a business that the service providers simply do not agree with?

zamadatix 7y ago
Water/power are utilities and are regulated differently than other industries. But your general question is an open debate. If you run a hosting company do you have to host things you disagree with? If you run a transaction company doy you have to exchange with parties you disagree with? What if a certain type of transaction is too high risk, do they have to do it anyways? Personally I'd like to see things lean more towards being agnostic to avoid amplification of the popular opinion but it isn't a cut and dry topic without corner cases or hard to define regulations.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  If you run a shop, you can't decline service to democrats, even if disagree with them. You can't discriminate, that's the law. I don't see how is it radically different from running a hosting company.
  - HaloZero 7y ago
    In the United States I think you can actually. Nothing stops you. You can't discriminate based on a few criteria like race, age, gender (and depending on the state) sexual orientation.
    - paxswill 7y ago
      Even this depends. In DC political affiliation is a protected class. https://ohr.dc.gov/protectedtraits https://ohr.dc.gov/protectedtraits
      - 7y ago

hychoi99 7y ago

Good. Porn is poison to society

simonswords82 7y ago
Why?
- rationalfaith 7y ago
  yourbrainonporn.com has not only research but a vast population of ex-porn users. If you claim any counter argument on its effect after that, then I question one's honesty to seek the truth.
  - jascii 7y ago
    Sure, I bite: The site you refer to is an book advert and most of its premises have been disproven in peer reviewed research.
    - rationalfaith 7y ago
      I see pro-porn lobby is strong here. For other readers, website is backed up by reddit.com/r/nofap which has 500k+ users who are quitting or quit porn. Countless testimonies. Same website has 75+ peer reviewed research papers: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/porn-use-sex-addiction-studies/studies-linking-porn-use-or-porn-sex-addiction-to-sexual-dysfunctions-lower-arousal-and-lower-sexual-relationship-satisfaction/#less https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articl... You may be paid to lobby for porn, but it only takes truth to undo your lies.
      - jascii 7y ago
        Ah, the first thing that comes to mind when someone disagrees with you is accusing them of being a paid shill..

ashelmire 7y ago

Sounds like a great opportunity to start another payment service. PornHub already has a strong dev team, from what I understand, and it would probably be relatively easy for them.

aazaa 7y ago

Financial deplatforming is a monster, long-term trend to watch over the next decades. Deplatforming happens with sex workers. It also happens in the US marijuana industry. It happens with perfectly legal political content. The number of ways in which someone, somewhere will be offended by products or services for sale is growing, driven by a rapidly improving worldwide communication network and delivery system, and by people terrified of the change that brings. The response by PayPal and many others has been to cut service. With each case, the circle of people finding themselves cut off from the traditional economy grows. Bitcoin is often criticized for its lack of use cases. I find a very high correlation between the strength of this belief and lack of awareness of financial deplatforming in its many guises.

bcheung 7y ago
I've had several friends in the adult industry have their checking accounts closed at a several major banks as well. Traditional banking should definitely not be discriminating against fully legal activities.
- geomark 7y ago
  This is the thing I find very disturbing. That an industry as highly regulated and essential to every day life as banking can pick and choose based on management's moral choices.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - short_sells_poo 7y ago
    It's not a moral choice. It's a case of the business is not worth the hassle. KYC rules mean the bank is on the hook if they are found to harbor ill gotten gains and the sex industry had a some troubles in the past, while not producing enough volume on an individual level to make it worthwhile for a bank to overlook things.
    - 7y ago

solarkraft 7y ago

There are so many stories of small time vendors just thousands of $ of funds frozen out of nowhere, with no way of contacting PayPal about it. What is their incentive to do this? Is PayPal in the business of randomly hassling people? Is it for the entertainment of some executive?

justboxing 7y ago

Calling Sex Workers 'Models' is kinda rich.

rationalfaith 7y ago
One need only look at the STDs impacting each profession to clearly see models != sex slaves (uh I mean "workers" uh i mean human trafficking)
lonelappde 7y ago
They so stuff for people to look at at sometimes copy. That's modelling.

fowl2 7y ago

Presumably there's a reason that payment processors have straight up ban customers instead of increasing fees to cover costs? I mean different industries already have different risk profiles and fees. I can think of an analogy to interest rates, which vary tremendously depending on risk.

pkaye 7y ago

How much is it a issue of chargebacks?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rationalfaith 7y ago

Porn is ripe with human trafficking and its consumption is violently destructive to individuals and relationships. Source: http://yourbrainonporn.com/ http://yourbrainonporn.com/ In the future, when people stop acting so ignorant, it'll be categorized as a threat to society in corrupting objective, rational and clear thinking. Everything in extremes is bad, even freedom.

Jamwinner 7y ago
Are you here just to troll?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sdegutis 7y ago
  No, GP is surprisingly correct, and I’m actually kinda surprised that HN just jumped right to downvotes. But I guess I shouldn’t be. When you attack someone’s heart they writhe in pain. Calling cigarettes “adult pacifiers” for example will really offend someone who is enslaved by cigarettes, even though it’s true. Pointing out the danger and seriousness of today’s horrible porn epidemic will do nothing in a crowd of people enslaved to unchastity in any of its forms except incite their futile wrath. Which is sad, because it’s supposed to help them realize they’re enslaved. Maybe for some it will, and they’ll ask Jesus to ransom them. I applaud you GP, God bless you.
  - therealx 7y ago
    I don't smoke (never have, tried it, not for me), but I still think calling them “adult pacifiers” is an over the top, intentionally inflammatory statement that's not true. If anything, it makes your very real point that people should stop smoking seem ridiculous.
    - sdegutis 7y ago
      You're right, it's not true. Babies use pacifiers because they haven't had time to learn how to sooth themselves yet, or how to deal with stress properly. Adults use smoking for the same reason, but they have had time to develop self-control and discipline so that they can respond properly to stress. So it's unfair to babies to call cigarettes adult pacifiers. But I mentioned it in this thread because it's very related to "adult content" which shouldn't rightly be called "adult" since it's based on impulsivity and lack of self-control or discipline, and based on a desire to pacify themselves. The word pacify comes from the Latin word for peace, and "adult content" enslaves people by making them feel reliant on it for their internal peace, just like they would a cigarette or pacifier. Pornography is a curse and a scourge to souls. It enslaves them. If only they knew about Jesus Christ and his mercy and grace! I know at least a few men who are real men, who are able to withstand the physical and emotional forces that press upon their hearts, and are able to withstand the storm of lust that comes upon them like a thief in the night. This world needs more real men, men of courage, men of valor. Men who can lead others, because they themselves are not led by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, or the pride of life.

blfr 7y ago

Didn't Pornhub "verify" an account of a 15 year "model"? https://twitter.com/PornhubHelp/status/1189445175929647104 https://twitter.com/PornhubHelp/status/1189445175929647104 That will probably give a pause to any payment provider.

wufufufu 7y ago

Square and Cash App now is your time. You talk about economic empowerment but are you really bout that life?

nickstinemates 7y ago
Doubt. Porn is one thing, but, to take a moral public stand in the same year of the Chef/Github/ICE controversy seems risky.

arrty88 7y ago

They should use Spankcoin

t-h-e-chief 7y ago

One of the many reasons why I hate PayPal, Visa and MasterCard

jascii 7y ago

I wonder how much money PayPal will make off of the interest on these frozen funds..

goblin89 7y ago

How thorough is Pornhub’s KYC? In a business like that it may be quite difficult to detect exploitation. If they don’t strive do a good job at it (which doesn’t especially align with maximizing revenue), PayPal’s decision may be hard to criticize.

kreck 7y ago

Reminds me of this: https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... Private companies have no incentive to take a stand for individual freedom and will always bow before the demands of a (loud) minority

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levismaina 7y ago

An alternative would be a system like M-Pesa. It's based on your personal phone line using the SIM toolkit, though there's also an app. Transactions can only be carried out on the phone with the SIM installed though. It's great for personal transfers, and many in Kenya already use it to pay sex workers (usually cam girls selling nudes). Corporates can have numbers (called paybill) where payments are made, though they are vulnerable to government interference. Safaricom (the network carrier running the M-Pesa platform) has already been ordered to shut down accounts belonging to betting firms. But for personal transactions, regulation is hard since nobody can tell why you sent a certain person money. M-Pesa has never quite gained traction outside Kenya though.

asmithmd1 7y ago

Altered name of story, actually:”Paypall pulls out of Pornhub”

rhizome 7y ago

See, if you have zillions of dollars there all kinds of financial instruments that harm society (say, by reducing taxes paid), but any vice the little people can partake in, either as producers or consumers, well, we have to keep that on a short leash. Or kill it. The financial industry's policies around sex and pot need a reboot. It's ridiculous what they're restricting. "I Hope PayPal's Dick Falls Off" https://gizmodo.com/i-hope-paypals-dick-falls-off-1839870796 https://gizmodo.com/i-hope-paypals-dick-falls-off-1839870796

cryptozeus 7y ago

I wonder how these kinds of trends will impact bitcoin and crypto. May be this is good for crypto currencies.

dextralt 7y ago

>"... is a private company and it is their right to refuse service to anyone" >"Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences" >"en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_fallacy" Nothing is out of the order.

gnulinux 7y ago
Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's necessarily neutral. We can still argue this development being negative, for reasons unrelated to "freedom of speech".
- apta 7y ago
  We can also argue how it's a positive development.

jccalhoun 7y ago

I'm surprised paypal ever worked with pornhub because they have always been skitish about pornography. More than a decade ago I was given a Girls Gone Wild dvd and sold it on ebay only to find out that paypal didn't allow my buyer to pay for pornography. (The seller just used paypal to directly send me money that wasn't tied to ebay so it worked out in the end)

adam791 7y ago

Banks and other financial institutions are all about minimizing risk. If there is a risk that an account enables sex trafficking or money laundering there may be an internal policy to close the account as well as an obligation under anti money laundering laws to report it to the government. It comes down to the risk appetite of the bank. The bank stands to be fined if it is found not to have reported on suspicious activity and there is reputational risk as well. This is the reason a lot of banks would choose to de-risk and close the accounts.

nintendo1889 7y ago

I am vehemently against the illiterate rubbish posted on vice but this article is an exception.

habosa 7y ago

I hate that any online company can set arbitrary Terms of Service which they know for a FACT I have not read (I didn't click) and then decide to pull the rug out from me at any time because of that. These companies are seriously important in our lives. If you take away my payment source or my email or whatever you are potentially setting me on a path to ruin. I don't know what the answer is but I do think these companies should be required to have an appeal process of some kind that's regulated. They have so much power.

gorgoiler 7y ago
Even if you did click to accept the terms of service, their server knows you probably didn’t read it. They know exactly how long it was between you being served the contract, and you accepting it. Clearly if that time is anything under a number of minutes or hours you can’t possibly be agreeing to the contract and so they should be duty bound to refuse service. I look forward to a test case where a judge rules a terms-of-service contract unenforceable because the vendor logged that I read it in 3.2 seconds and accepted that as me having read it. Or maybe it’s time to start being that person again, who reads contracts slowly and in full before signing.
- ianai 7y ago
  Actually I’d suggest we all take some time to learn the law. Actual legal practices and whatever. I’m increasingly of the impression that lawyers are the real first class citizens of a constitutional government.

ganitarashid 7y ago

There’s always bitcoin

throwaway122378 7y ago

Where’s the MeToo movement????? Disgrace that corporate America can get away with making their own laws when they want

yunesj 7y ago

I'm surprised that people suddenly think that banks aren't greedy enough to profit from the porn industry! Maybe the reason PayPal and so many other companies won't service adult industries is that there are laws that put them within arms reach of criminal liability? On a related note, this reminds me of Operation Choke Point (2013-2017), where the DOJ harassed banks that did business with customers in legal, but "undesirable", industries [1]. [1] https://cei.org/blog/operation-choke-point-targets-porn-and-firearms-potentially-violating-constitution https://cei.org/blog/operation-choke-point-targets-porn-and-... [2] https://reason.com/2014/04/28/doj-operation-chokepoint-and-porn-stars/ https://reason.com/2014/04/28/doj-operation-chokepoint-and-p...

rpmisms 7y ago
What a legendary name for an operation.

unreal37 7y ago

17 years ago, my business partners and I were approached by a porn website looking to get their website redone. (We didn't take the job, but it was an interesting meeting.) He said that his biggest problem was "refunds". It seems it was a common thing for people to buy his service (access to porn), and then a few days later claim to the credit card company that it was an unauthorized charge. He told a story of an irate wife calling him on the phone one day and demanding the charge be taken off her husband's credit card bill. She was insistent that there was "no way" her husband would sign up for a porn website. Well of course he did (or was it their son?). But he couldn't admit it to his wife. And so she called the office of the porn website to complain. I'm sure that hasn't changed 17 years later. Credit card chargebacks must still be a huge problem. Chargebacks make it a customer service nightmare. One of the highest refund rates that credit cards get, the highest incidence of actual fraud (charges that really weren't authorized), undisclosed recurring charges, etc. Still, cutting off service to the models seems unfair. But refusing to deal with the websites themselves actually has underlying business reasons other than morality.

johnpowell 7y ago
I have signed up for trials just because I wanted to grab a certain clip. And while I was in there I would download as much as I can and then cancel. And there is also that once you are done watching the last thing you want to do is watch more. And did I just pay for that? Wasn't worth it. Family Guy sums it up nicely. https://youtu.be/IzhIiJJdD9g https://youtu.be/IzhIiJJdD9g

ryanmarsh 7y ago

“models”

cetico 7y ago

SpankChain.com may be a alternative?

tibbydudeza 7y ago

I stopped using Paypal a while back ... don't won't any bizarre US cultural norms and govt politics affecting my choices.

will_crusher 7y ago

The Adult industry has always been pretty hot on emerging tech, whilst a shitty move from Paypal, Im sure that they might move to something a little less standard.

_pmf_ 7y ago

If Brave/BAT plays its cards right ... look at the top 2 entry at https://batgrowth.com/publishers/website https://batgrowth.com/publishers/website

mola 7y ago

Talk about one sided agenda driven reporting... Vice is such a sad excuse of journalism. Too bad it is so representative of the entire media world. Most of us forget something different can exist.

mola 7y ago
To be clear, there are many issues with this industry, most players are very sketchy especially how they treat the performers. Thats part of the reason why mainstream businesses don't want anything to do with it. Maybe if they'll clean up their act and get rid of the criminal elements, an article with this tone would be warranted.

commandersaki 7y ago

Sounds like an opportunity for Mindgeek / Manwin to build their own payment system.

roddux 7y ago

Good, hopefully it hurts the porn industry as a whole.

tiku 7y ago

It really sucks if your money is being seized. I'm now in a situation at MisterTango where they froze my assets because i need do show where my bitcoin money came from. The power they have over you is so great, it really makes you sick.

billpg 7y ago

"Models"? They're modelling?

classified 7y ago

If you give the philistines the power to terrorize their fellow beings, they will.

ghego1 7y ago

Having a legal background, I would really like to evaluate the grounds for a class action for discrimination. Legal tech companies are increasingly taking moral stands, poorly motivated on dubious reasons, on legitimate and lawful activities, while at the same time the industry has a tremendous responsibility in enabling hate speech and gals information.

Mate2Mate 7y ago

Does nobody know about Nano yet? Instantly-confirmed, immutable, secure feeless payments. All the model needs to do is display the Nano address or QR code in their backdrop, or on their web page. That's it - then receive, and possibly instantly react to, their instant notifications of payment receipt in their https://natrium.io https://natrium.io wallet. Simples. Sod VISA and PayPal and their charges and censorship. Those are obsolete now that the Nano Peer-to-Peer digital currency exists. (This was, after all, Satoshi Nakamoto's original vision - that Bitcoin, sadly, can't fulfil).

octosphere 7y ago

There is an alternative called Liberapay[0] but I haven't tried it, so I can't vouch for it. There is also Flattr[1], but Flattr is more for small micropayments to show your appreciation for a project or piece of software (not to mention you need a Paypal account to cash out your earnings). There's also things like Buy Me A Coffee[2], but again, centered around small micropayments (I imagine these performers need more than a coffee, although when you have several fans buying you a coffee it's a good gig). Also: I'm surprised nobody is talking about Patreon[3] (Prolly against their terms of service too though) [0] https://liberapay.com/ https://liberapay.com/ [1] https://flattr.com/ https://flattr.com/ [2] https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ [3] https://www.patreon.com/ https://www.patreon.com/

frankzen 7y ago

Yet people still refuse to acknowledge permissionless crypto as an alternate form of exchange. Instead of sticking it to the Man, they want to stick to the Man until the bitter end!

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sk84life 7y ago

It's really disturbing how your "cash register" can dictate what you can sell ? I hope blockchain payments will come soon as possible to destroy these slow, old school, opinionated payment gateways. We are not free, we cannot have opinions or say publicly anything against the system.. We are living like any other communist country. Sad sad situation !

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michannne 7y ago

And this is where Square & Patreon's toe-dipping shows it's effects. You can NEVER. N-E-V-E-R allow an organization to have that much power and then not say anything just because they are targeting groups that you happen to also be against, because in the end, they will get a taste of the power they wield, the control they have, and they will abuse it.

Israhell 7y ago

A side note, pornography is a weapon and sexual liberation is a form of political control. See It's usage against Palestinians by the Jewish ethno-state and in Venezuela. The left essentially did a deal with the state, if we get to engage in sexual degeneracy and we won't criticize your political policy. Read Libido Dominandi - Sexual "Liberation" & Political Control.

hackbinary 7y ago

This just lends more evidence to the view that the system is rigged.

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dingo_bat 7y ago

It's all fine guys it's a private company. Just like how all SV companies deplatform political voices that don't match theirs. All in a days work!

Jnr 7y ago

Since I tend to read ToS and other agreements prior to signing, I was quite surprised to see a similar restriction for Revolut. In their case it is actually phrased in a way that makes it seem like you are not even allowed to pay for pornographic content with Revolut, not just receive money for it. Not a problem for me personally but why would payment card providers make such restrictions? It had some other weird restrictions as well.