38 ms·

Pixel prevented me from calling 911

• lvs 5y ago
  There's no reason why a 911 call should not become the top priority of the operating system when triggered by user interaction. Failover through all available radios. The OS should not take no for an answer when trying to get out a 911 call.
• codetiger 5y ago
  How is this issue only related to Pixel phones? If the issue is in the platform level and Teams app (or other apps that act as catalyst to this issue), how are other manufacturer phones safer? I couldn't understand this point on why only Pixel users are affected?
  • oneepic 5y ago
    Because it was only reported for a Pixel phone so far.
    • codetiger 5y ago
      Probably, yes. And the same applies to MS Teams app.
• yftsui 5y ago
  Wow... that is why Seattle Police Department just used the "Public Safety Alert" to send everybody their local phone numbers.
• _c8s0 5y ago
  Practical Linux phones cannot come soon enough. I am done with this nonsense. It is abundantly clear that organically developed open source software for critical tasks such as this will always be superior and likely safer due to the informed user/developer-base's ability to deal with problems as they arise.
• khalid1234 5y ago
  Hhhhffhkktfkkg.xxtt
• LurkersWillLurk 5y ago
  This is astonishing. > We determined that the issue was being caused by unintended interaction between the Microsoft Teams app and the underlying Android operating system. As someone whose organizational policy signs my Teams client out after a couple hours of inactivity, I would love to know how on earth this is possible. I truly am at a loss, and I am furious at the thought that I have been unable to dial 911 for who knows how long. At least I know the ten digit number for my local emergency services, but the average person probably doesn't. This is unacceptable.
  • INTPenis 5y ago
    I can't answer that but I run Teams on Android and it's just a terrible app. Its problems have affected my entire phone before. Like for example when it wouldn't stop blinking and each blink reset whatever I was doing so I had to quickly switch out of it between blinks and then force kill it from Settings.
    • badthingfactory 5y ago
      Teams is the absolute worst piece of software I have ever used. Simply logging in only works about 50% of the time. This wouldn't be a big deal if I wasn't randomly forced to the login screen every few days. I experience a different bug every other day. I can't be signed into multiple orgs at once (on desktop) meaning I have to fully sign out/sign in when I want to switch and it takes forever. Notifications are unreliable. I miss Slack so much.
  • georgemcbay 5y ago
    Agreed. As a Pixel/Android user who has never used Microsoft Teams this is still incredibly concerning. A third-party app causing this issue on accident means a third-party app could cause this issue maliciously and any app not part of the base operating system should not be capable of causing an issue interfering with emergency calling. I assume/hope their January 4th fix addresses whatever the issue is at a more fundamental level, but this seems like the sort of thing that should be addressed a lot sooner than a month out.
• niyazpk 5y ago
  IMO while Microsoft and Google should work together to solve this as soon as possible, the longer term solution should not involve Microsoft. This sounds like something Google should fix at their end. No customization done by the user, including installation of apps should prevent a user from being able to call 911, period.
  • agilob 5y ago
    It would also be quite cool is 3rd party apps didn't need and use permissions like "listen to who am I calling". Why a chat/online calling application even need that? Only to collect metadata about their users?
  • derekp7 5y ago
    The post said that it is also being addressed in a platform update on Jan 4th..
    • millzlane 5y ago
      The workaround is to uninstall teams. I'm not having the issue though.
    • ok_dad 5y ago
      Awesome for people who have pixels that no longer get updates... Like me and my family. Now I have to buy new phones?!
      • bb88 5y ago
        That's actually a real issue that needs addressing. Any phone that makes 911 calls should still get security updates. All phones that can reach the cell network can still make 911 calls per FCC requirement. Imagine the worse case scenario where malware infects the phone but requires a credit card to call 911. Maybe congress will get around to this to make Google and everyone else do the right thing, but from my perspective Google should have done the right thing here.
• ChrisArchitect 5y ago
  full link: https://reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_prevented_me_from_calling_911/ https://reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_preve...
  • notwhereyouare 5y ago
    full link, that on mobile will only show some comments if you aren't using their app, if you try to view them all, will force you to sign in or use their app. For me, when telling it to use the app, takes me to the home screen instead of the thread I was trying to see. old.reddit.com works so much better than the new reddit when linking out
    • derekp7 5y ago
      For mobile use, nothing really beats i.reddit.com. Clean simple interface, only a couple minor annoyances such as search not supporting all the options.
    • ChrisArchitect 5y ago
      That's the link. It works for users of the site mobile or not, app or browser is a choice. If you want to use old you can change the url or actually sign in and set it as preferences instead of being a lurking non-participant. People can choose what way they view it but that's the real link. If you're really concerned about comments or mobile interface or whatever maybe you should sign in and be a user of the site otherwise you're opinion doesn't really matter now does it. Point is don't force ppl to the old.reddit link.
      • Dylan16807 5y ago
        > That's the link. It's not "the" link. They are both valid links to the same thing. > It works for users of the site mobile or not, app or browser is a choice. No, it doesn't work properly. > you can change the url It's nice, when linking people to an article, to not give them extra work to see it. > or actually sign in Shouldn't have to, obviously! > instead of being a lurking non-participant Nothing is wrong with lurking. > otherwise you're opinion doesn't really matter now does it 1. That's dumb, yes it does. 2. This is a different site from reddit. Even if we accept your participation premise, the link is on HN, so it's HN opinions that matter. Reddit accounts are totally irrelevant; only HN accounts matter here. > don't force ppl to the old.reddit link. What happened to "you can change the url"? (Not that I agree with that idea in general, but I think it's much more valid for a dislike of aesthetics and much less valid for making a site function properly.)
• cesarb 5y ago
  Direct link to the comment from an "Official Google Account" on what they found: https://old.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_prevented_me_from_calling_911/hnrvsr1/ https://old.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_p... "Based on our investigation [...] We determined that the issue was being caused by unintended interaction between the Microsoft Teams app and the underlying Android operating system. [...] If you have the Microsoft Teams app downloaded, but are not signed in, uninstall and reinstall the app. While this will address the problem in the interim, a Microsoft Teams app update is still required to fully resolve the issue. [...]" Now I'm really curious as to what that "unintended interaction" was.
  • TheDudeMan 5y ago
    > "a Microsoft Teams app update is still required to fully resolve the issue" Lol, Google claims no responsibility?
  • bombcar 5y ago
    My guess is two programs were trying to register themselves as the phone call app, Teams won, and didn’t know how to 911.
    • GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Especially because it was not signed in. Teams doesn't make any phone calls without being signed in, even 911. It shouldn't really register itself as a phone app IMO. And on my oneplus it doesn't appear to have even tried.
    • minaguib 5y ago
      Damn, your guess sounds quite plausible. Also, everything is awful.
      • reaperducer 5y ago
        Also, everything is awful. Not so much awful as "Star Trek." Star Trek was always upheld as a model of the future. But instead of transporters and replicators and space travel, we got all the bad stuff from Star Trek. Everything breaks all the time. Technology doesn't do what we expect it to do. The latest, greatest inventions are held together with gum and bailing wire. Computers let us down when we need them the most. We are living Star Trek.
• jacquesm 5y ago
  One more reason to give to people when they ask me why I don't want to use Microsoft Teams. What shitshow that product is. Besides being so unreliable that it is unusable for its intended purpose it is invasive to a degree that insults me as a person that tries to have a reasonable degree of control over the software executing on my machines.
  • rozap 5y ago
    This is entirely the fault of the OS.
    • jacquesm 5y ago
      Absolutely, Google has the end responsibility here, their handsets are simply not compliant. But MS has f*ckd up their testing, they should have definitely caught this before it was shipped and they should have been the ones to alert Google, not some random end user.
      • Eelongate 5y ago
        How does an app developer test 911 functionality without actually placing a 911 call? I'm sure 911 operators would not be amused by such test calls; do companies have special testing cell networks that don't connect 911 calls through?
        • leephillips 5y ago
          Companies have (and I don’t know the right terminology here, but you’ll get the idea) local test microcells that they use to test phones without actually connecting to the real network.
        • sp332 5y ago
          You can do a 911 test call. Make sure to tell them it's not an emergency instead of just hanging up. To play it safe, you can call your local non-emergency number and ask them how to do a test call. Sometimes they will schedule a test, sometimes they will just ask you to call outside of peak hours.
• mrblampo 5y ago
  Every phone should be required to make some sort of dry-run 911 call on a regular basis to make sure it works.
  • reaperducer 5y ago
    Every phone should be required to make some sort of dry-run 911 call on a regular basis to make sure it works. Have you tried to call 911 recently? I have. Both times, I had to wait on hold over five minutes for someone to answer. "Press 1 if you need police. Press 2 for fire. Press 3 for a medical emergency. Press 4 if this is a non-emergency and you will be transferred to 311." After that there's not even hold music to let you know you haven't been disconnected. There are almost 300 million cell phones in America. Who's going to answer those test calls? The operators who are already too busy to answer emergency calls?
    • mrblampo 5y ago
      I was more thinking that there should be a system for making dry run calls, such that no human actually has to be involved, and that phones should be required to exercise that system on a regular basis, so that edge cases that weren't caught in automated testing will eventually be caught.
    • sterlind 5y ago
      I assume GP envisioned some magic where it doesn't actually go to a human operator, it just somehow does a handshake with the 911 department's equipment instead. Still not a good idea, since you don't want a bunch of phones DDoSing 911.
      • mlyle 5y ago
        > it just somehow does a handshake with the 911 department's equipment instead. > Still not a good idea, since you don't want a bunch of phones DDoSing 911. Eh, it doesn't sound too bad as something to roll out eventually. About 240 million 911 calls per year vs. 280 million cellphones in the US, and a dry run test would be expected to use a fraction of the resources (short call, etc). So, to test once per year I'd think you'd need to make the call handling infrastructure a small percent wider, and that extra capacity is something you could even benefit from (because phones could avoid testing at peak times). The big problem is that this tests the actual call handling (and perhaps address reporting, etc)-- but doesn't do much to test the actual UI, audio path, etc, under the circumstance of an emergency call.
• phendrenad2 5y ago
  I'm not at all surprised by this. For a 5 year span I used probably 4-5 different Android phones, from HTC & Samsung. All of them had this kind of glitch, where some kind of race condition gets the system stuck in an unanticipated state. UI elements that were supposed to scroll smoothly off the screen would get stuck halfway. Some system app would lock out touch events temporarily while loading something, and it would stay locked until a hard reboot. I think it's a symptom of a system that's designed as a stack of abstraction layers, with developers who don't communicate. The developers of project A think a bug is a minor issue, not knowing that project B relies on it for something critical. It's hard to write an app for a platform like this, too. Instead of one cohesive target, you have discontinuous abstraction layers. Looks like Microsoft Teams was part of the problem here. I assume they had to hook into some semi-documented functionality that Google wasn't aware of or thought no one would use. On iOS, where Apple keeps tight control over their API surface, this is less likely to happen.
  • macromagnon 5y ago
    Android has the concept of an Intent[0] which are basically a category of apps that can fulfill a functionality like sending an email, browsing the internet, or dialing a number, etc. So a developper can create contacts/caller app so that for example, when you click on a call button from say a google search, the OS asks the user to pick one app that was declared to be able to ACTION_CALL. If I had to guess, I'd say it's something having to do with Teams being given priority on calls followed by failure to having priority for emergency calls and no way to gracefully recover. Quickly browsing the documentation I see comments like Note: there will be restrictions on which applications can initiate a call; most applications should use the ACTION_DIAL. Note: this Intent cannot be used to call emergency numbers. Applications can dial emergency numbers using ACTION_DIAL, however.[1] [0] https://developer.android.com/guide/components/intents-common https://developer.android.com/guide/components/intents-commo... [1] https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Intent#ACTION_CALL https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Inte...
  • fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
    > On iOS, where Apple keeps tight control over their API surface, this is less likely to happen. I snorted when I read this. Trust me, iOS has plenty of broken and poorly-documented APIs.
• RedShift1 5y ago
  Does this also apply to 112, the EU emergency number?
  • hazza_n_dazza 5y ago
    112 is the international mobile emergency number.
  • sgent 5y ago
    Maybe? Check the android release notes on the Jan 4th update.
• sebow 5y ago
  Good. Pro tip: don't have anything google/MS/Apple near you,both SW and HW, especially 24/7. Don't care about what's inside the product you buy?Why should other people care about what happens to you in the aftermath?Especially when repeatedly these companies have been abusive? This is first about self-respect more than anything, even though it may not sound like it at first glance. You don't need their product as much as those companies need you, contrary to the popular "they're billionaires, they don't care" belief.People who think in these terms don't realize every purchase is a vote, and the more aware you are with your wallet, the more power you have, even if you are less wealthy than these corporations.This is why ignorance about subjects like privacy, security, usability, censorship matter more than not.Because inaction will eventually turn into action against you.
• dqpb 5y ago
  People are jumping all over Microsoft Teams, but the problem is really that any arbitrary app can interfere with emergency calls. That’s fundamentally an OS problem.
  • runevault 5y ago
    It is both. If it is VOIP it should always allow emergency calls period. But Google ALSO screwed up by not ensuring emergency numbers go through even if the configured dialer is trying to eat it.
    • dqpb 5y ago
      Obviously each one had a problem, but they are categorically different. The problem that <no emergency call could be made> was an OS problem. The problem that <Microsoft Teams could not make an emergency call> was an application problem.
• uyt 5y ago
  Since I don't use Find My Phone often enough, my Pixel 3 helpfully decided to remove location permissions from it. Would've been in for a surprise the next time I lose my phone had I not caught the notification.
  • sumitgt 5y ago
    I believe that permission is only needed for the Find My App itself (so that it can display the map correctly centered w.r.t where you are). I don't think it affects finding that device from other devices.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  • Farbklex 5y ago
    Oh wow, this is true for me as well. Need to check if the app permission is required or if the location tracking works separately through some system service.
  • kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    I've lost a phone with location tracking turned off. You can still disable the phone remotely and assign a lock screen message for the findee to contact you.
  • cett 5y ago
    If you mean the Find My Device app it only asks for foreground location permission so I would assume the actual device "beacon" is part of the system not that app.
• ikiris 5y ago
  I don't understand why everyone is blaming pixel here. If it hijacked 911 and refused to let your app that provides your actual phone service dial it or similar, people would be up in similar arms. Especially from an antitrust / competitive angle. This is what I expect to happen honestly when apps (teams in this case) register as phone services and then refuse to call some numbers. Sure there should be a way for the call handler to reject some dials and have it go to the next in chain, but honestly this seems like a mess to me overall.
  • zenexer 5y ago
    It's the platform's responsibility to properly sandbox apps. It should not allow apps to intercept emergency calls under any circumstances. Alternatively, you could have a completely open platform, and then the onus is on Microsoft Teams and the user--but neither Android nor iPhone are like that; both choose to sandbox apps by default. When I install an app on a Pixel that isn't rooted, I expect that Android will keep it from intercepting 911.
  • shakna 5y ago
    Emergency numbers are for emergencies. Your phone can be locked, your SIM can be invalid, but you will still be able to place an emergency call because an emergency is a crisis, by definition. I believe that there is actual regulation governing this - a phone must be able to try and place an emergency call. The expectation is that the phone will absolutely "hijack" an emergency number to ensure that it takes place. It's a critical path that _should_ ignore everything else going on with the device. If, instead, you allow any call-handler to take control of whether or not an emergency phone call takes place, you open the door for malware to prevent emergency calls. You open the door for subversive apps, like those used by abusive spouses, to fake emergency calls, and report the victim to their abuser. You allow a malfunctioning app to prevent someone from getting help before going through a debugging process, which isn't reasonable if you've fallen and broken a leg. You insert the platform, in this case Google, into situations where they may become liable for allowing someone to be in danger. Possibly even actively assisting. That's a legal bombshell that should terrify the platform.
    • 5y ago
• pcmoney 5y ago
  I don’t know how people could continue to trust Android when it can’t handle the basics. And yes calling 911 is “the basics”
  • miriam_catira 5y ago
    This is Microsoft at fault for building a terrible app (and why are we surprised about this), not Android. I have used my Android phone to call 911 and it worked correctly (though I don't remember if it was the year I had a Pixel or after I went back to Samsung).
    • nunez 5y ago
      It is not Microsoft’s fault. No app should be able to intercept 911 calls. Teams should not have received an actionable event at all here. Microsoft should not have to test the 911 call path.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      • miriam_catira 5y ago
        That the thing though - and I should have been more clear in my original comment. What if a user installs a third party phone app, with the intention of never using the standard one? That app would have to be able to send 911 calls. A bug in how the hand off works - yes that's a serious issue. But certainly that's something that we should still hold Teams accountable for testing before they released their app, too. edit: typing too fast on a phone...
      • kaba0 5y ago
        https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Intent#ACTION_CALL https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Inte... It should not happen as per the documentation, so it may be a bug on an OS implementation level, but not on an architectural one.
    • avalys 5y ago
• ppg677 5y ago
  I worked at Motorola's cellular division 20 years ago. I recall a "stop ship" incident when a 911 bug was discovered. That is, we halted the factory and shipments until the bug was fixed and a new software image was available. The phone's callstack takes a lot of special actions when calling 911, including locking onto any tower even if it is not in the preferred roaming list. As with many exceptional conditions, these code paths are often not as well tested.
  • blep-arsh 5y ago
    I wonder if there should be a 911-like test number that would cause the phone and the network to go through the emergency call procedure, just not connect to the actual call center.
    • phh 5y ago
      Yes please. I develop Android custom ROMs and I have no idea whether I'm putting people's lives in danger. And it's not just whether calling works, but also E911. Even when I used to work at a smartphone maker we didn't have any process for that.
      • londons_explore 5y ago
        Just call 911, and when connected state that it's a test call and hang up. 911 calls have plenty of capacity for occasional test calls, and the need to test them clearly is important to reduce the risk of them not working when needed. If you need to do automated tests, there is a test flag in the android dialer API which will make the call but mark it with some test flag so you get a recorded message not a human answering.
        • Scramblejams 5y ago
          911 calls have plenty of capacity for occasional test calls That is not an assumption I would want to make. There are plenty of accounts out there of sporadic staffing problems at emergency call centers. It appears the right way to do this is to get an appointment. More details here: https://www.911.gov/frequently_asked_questions.html https://www.911.gov/frequently_asked_questions.html
• nunez 5y ago
  now imagine a game that intercepts phone calls (because everyone totally reads the permissions sheet) and is actually able to handle 911 calls. congrats, now OP just gave an attacker their physical address, and their grandma is dead because, well, i doubt the attacker will relay the call for them. this is a huge, huge problem and has nothing to do with Teams.
  • stjohnswarts 5y ago
    You would have thought app sandboxing on android would simply not allow this at all. 911 is just too critical to allow any app to interfere with it. The code path should be simple and uninterruptible.
    • 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
      Someone in another thread here said Teams itself is required by the FCC to be able to make 911 calls and that is the root of the issue. MS teams implementation clashed with the OS dialer (iiuc). Completely unacceptable on Google's part.
      • nunez 5y ago
        I think Teams is required to take 911 calls because it incorporates Skype for Business/Lync's PBX capabilities, which makes Teams basically an office phone like Cisco Jabber. That makes me wonder if Teams on iOS can make 911 calls...
• vinni2 5y ago
  How do I know my phone has this problem? Is there a way to test this without triggering or bothering the emergency response?
  • progman32 5y ago
    This is allowed. Read the FAQs: https://www.911.gov/frequently_asked_questions.html https://www.911.gov/frequently_asked_questions.html
    • gtsop 5y ago
      Apparently this page is bugged as well, the full reply to the testing question is not fully visible on my mobile phone, rotating the phone to landscape revealed the full reply.
• WoodenChair 5y ago
  This reminds of the time my iPhone wouldn't let me STOP calling 911: https://twitter.com/davekopec/status/1364144313639317505 https://twitter.com/davekopec/status/1364144313639317505
  • codetiger 5y ago
    I would say, accidentally dialing 911 is somewhat more acceptable than the current issue in discussion. One thing that sounds unacceptable is, Google expecting this issue to be fixed by MS Teams. At least their response should be accepting the situation and providing a security fix asap.
  • blep-arsh 5y ago
    I've seen dodgy chargers knock out capacitive touchscreens, albeit temporarily and until disconnected.
  • Dylan16807 5y ago
    I think it's fine to go ahead and be upset with the police for coming, for what it's worth.
  • liveoneggs 5y ago
    I've had a similar issue where no interaction worked and then physical buttons have a long-press to dial emergency. I just stayed quiet and 911 recognized it as a pocket dial and hung up.
• dmitrygr 5y ago
  Guess: e911 requires location to be sent. There is probably a special provide_e911_location intent that teams handles (makes sense. In an office environment it could add cubicle number, floor, etc). When not logged in, teams likely crashes (probably nobody tested this case), OS doesn’t handle that crash well. No call.
• as300 5y ago
  Is there a way to tell if my phone is affected? Some sort of "test dial 911"?
  • oehpr 5y ago
    If anyone has any knowledge about this, I would love to know as well. edit: so apparently some people can schedule test calls: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29494197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29494197 I'm in BC, Canada. The people handling 911 in my province is E-Comm, and they don't seem to have a policy on this. I've sent them an e-mail asking if they accept test calls.
• clavicat 5y ago
  Can you imagine a more cancerous, dysfunctional software stack than a Microsoft app on a Google platform? I cannot stress how insane it is that these megacorps suck up some the best talent on earth and then saddles them with a corporate culture that throttles their abilities to the point that they might as well be actual retards.
• Seattle3503 5y ago
  Great, I can't even uninstall Teams on my Galaxy S9.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• dpifke 5y ago
  Only slightly related: SF now texts you instead of calling back for a 911 hangup. I called 911 at the Montgomery BART station when visiting SF last week, because someone was having a medical emergency. I got dead air (despite strong signal) for about 2 minutes before I spotted an elevator call box. That helped me get the station attendant; once she was on her way, I hung up on 911 so I could attend to the person in distress. 10 minutes later, I got a text: we received a 911 hangup from your phone. if you need help, call back, tell us where you are and what happened. if that was a misdial, have a good night (capitalization from original, so probably not automated?) I think this is a good thing, for example in a situation where someone needs help but is uncomfortable voicing their emergency aloud. But it was weird to get dead air and no immediate call back. In any case, I found it an interesting experience.
  • jmiserez 5y ago
    To be honest that doesn't sound good at all. No response while you're in an actual emergency and then just "closing the ticket" unless you call again.
• mwattsun 5y ago
  As a retired computer programmer whose seen a lot of bad software the phrase "software is eating the world" scares the heck out of me.
• runnerup 5y ago
  PDX_Web said: > u/KitchenPicture5849 should be awarded a sum in line with what a bug bounty hunter would be awarded for discovering a bug of comparable severity.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• birdman3131 5y ago
  I see a lot of bashing of teams for touching the dialer. Please take a look at https://www.fcc.gov/mlts-911-requirements https://www.fcc.gov/mlts-911-requirements before you say that they should not touch the dialer. Yes they royally f'd up. However Teams is a voip carrier among other things. As of Jan. 6, 2022 they are not allowed to ignore 911 anymore. They HAVE to allow 911 calls. Even being a non fixed device. And on android this does mean interacting with the dialer. (I have no affiliation with google or microsoft. I however did switch our small company to voip earlier this year and had to take a deep dive into the legalities.)
  • nieve 5y ago
    Supporting 911 calls with the bare 911 number is not the same as overriding the phone's default 911 handling and I doubt the FCC has any regulation that says a provider functioning as a third party on a phone is required to _replace_ & disable a working built in emergency dialing function with a broken app function.
• donatj 5y ago
  My Pixel 3aXL called 911 on me last week out of nowhere while I was browsing the web. I have no explanation, it just started doing weird, random, frustrating p things after I upgraded to Android 12. I hung up immediately, but they called back. I apologized profusely and explained my phone had done it, the guy sounded skeptical but let me go. Sigh.
• wly_cdgr 5y ago
  WOW. Catastrophically bad. The details really don't matter; when it comes to something like this - literally the single most important function of the device - Google as the platform owner has sole, final, non-negotiable responsibility. SVP+ level heads should roll for a fuck-up of this magnitude
• nullify88 5y ago
  I've used Island to put all work applications on to a work profile to keep it seperate from the main / personal profile. I wonder if Teams still could interfere with the dialer then or when the work profile is inactive.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• dusted 5y ago
  This makes a lot of sense from a swdev perspective (sadly). The 911 feature is probably the least used on any android phone, so real-world testing and reporting are limited for multitude of reasons. Developing and testing this feature is probably less convenient than normal calls, since it requires you to either have a fake 911 setup (meaning operating the phone in an rf shielded environment and with a fake tower) or actually disturbing real 911 services. So, while super sad, not surprised at all.
• noja 5y ago
  I hate these phrases: "We believe the issue is only present on a small number of devices" -> Reads like damage limitation. Don't believe it, say why! "we are currently only aware of one user report" -> Irrelevant. Damage limitation. Don't ever write this. Most users will never be able to recognise it as an Android problem, even fewer will have the ability to bug report it. -- https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_prevented_me_from_calling_911/hnrvsr1/?utm%25255C_source=share&utm%25255C_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_p...
  • dt3ft 5y ago
    The resolution is to wait for the teams app to update. How many people will even get the update? Many have disabled automated updates. Don't call it a phone if it can not dial 911!
• hopfog 5y ago
  A similar thing happened to me a few years ago when calling the Swedish equivalent (112). As soon as the operator picked up the dialer just crashed and there was no trace of the call in the log. I did this three times before switching to a friend's phone. I don't remember what apps I had or even what phone it was (except being Android) but it was a pretty bizarre and scary experience.
  • mongol 5y ago
    What phone was it?
• rvba 5y ago
  After last updates my phone gets constantly activated while in my poclet and it tries to dial random numbers like 8373636369565556. Then it can somehow jump and start apps too, especially the music app. Is there some way to disable this?
• steele 5y ago
  Ugh, my toddler regularly dials 911 trying to brute force thru lock screen and here this person intended it. This FAANG grindset rotating door of talent has been producing some of the most shallow shovelware releases since the dotcom boom. Product Owners are shotgunning minimally viable everything inside of aggressive release dates atop a complex house of cards to hide the advertisement business.
• bergwerf 5y ago
  My feeling is that Google is not capable of fixing fundamental problems of Android. Every year they change some colors and rounded edges (it's starting to get hilarious seeing the design of their apps being revamped over and over again), and add features invented by their designers nobody asked for. But the keyboard lag, the storage footprint (why must an ever so slightly older phone with 16GiB internal memory be discarded because His Majesty Android demands almost all of its space for itself?), those will only get worse every release. I think they simply don't care. It's all about futuristic colorful stuff that sells. Android will never be a humble, efficient, reliable platform. As for this issue. All I can think of is the tragedies it may cause. It's a cliché: software developers are not responsible, except when their PR forces them to take action.
  • dougmwne 5y ago
    Every Android device I’ve ever had since the early days lagged like crazy. I got my first iPhone recently and it’s smooth as butter. I was a fool for sticking with Android for so long.
    • koheripbal 5y ago
      The latest Android OS is such a disappointment. Basic aspects of the display, like the clock, cannot be customized at all. I don't use Apple products because they feel locked-in, but Android is almost worse sometimes.
    • SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago
      For Android most of the lag (IME) is artificial. To disable it, enable the Developer Options panel, and set "Window animation scale", "Transition animation scale", and "Animator duration scale" to off (or minimum value if you still want some animation). Suddenly it's much more responsive! Totally shit design. And could still have lower input lag. But instead of reducing it they added slow animations to try to hide it, which makes it take even longer!
  • pverghese 5y ago
    .
• prennert 5y ago
  Not being able to call emergency services with a phone is completely unacceptable. I am only posting to add that with my pixel 3 I am having issues with incoming calls being dropped or the interface not allowing me to accept an incoming call. Especially since the new re-design of the caller app a few months ago. Even an old phone should always be able to call and accept calls. Due to the emergency use-cases, I really think call functions should be the highest priority of smart phones and I cannot understand why there is so much sloppiness in QA with this. There is going to be kids out there that try to call their parents and their calls get dropped, same with elderly or otherwise vulnerable. You don't always want then to call 911 as first resort. But hopefully they remember to do it if cannot get through to their carer.. Before people suggest it, getting a second phone that guarantees handling incoming calls in not practical, as they would have to dial a different number than usual in an emergency.
• Animats 5y ago
  You can raise hell about this. The FCC regulates 911 service. Here's the form for filing a complaint about 911 service: https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=35840 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic... States also regulate 911 service. Try your state's office of emergency services. There's something called "Kari's Law" that may apply here. This was passed in 2018 after someone was being attacked in a hotel room and their 9 year old daughter tried to call 911. She couldn't get through because the phone system required dialing 9 for an outside line. So, now, all business phone systems are required to recognize and pass through 911 to the main phone network. There are criminal penalties. (Microsoft might argue that "Teams" is not a "multi-line telephone system". That probably wouldn't go far with a jury. The clear intent of the law is that if you interpose something between a phone handset and the 911 network, it has to pass through 911 calls.) The whole 911 area is heavily regulated, since it requires that so many things interoperate reliably.
  • strenholme 5y ago
    For more on Kari’s law: https://www.fcc.gov/news-events/podcast/personal-story-behind-karis-law https://www.fcc.gov/news-events/podcast/personal-story-behin...
  • protomyth 5y ago
    Microsoft might argue that "Teams" is not a "multi-line telephone system". That probably wouldn't go far with a jury. The clear intent of the law is that if you interpose something between a phone handset and the 911 network, it has to pass through 911 calls. Google may blame Microsoft but there is no way an app should be able to disable 911 calling on a phone. This means that other apps could disable 911 intentionally. This is Google's problem to fix. A phone OS needs to guarantee certain things and 911 is one of them.
    • Forgeties79 5y ago
      The problem is Google already does virtually nothing to manage/vet the apps on their store. It’s basically a free-for-all.
    • 5y ago
• _Nat_ 5y ago
  Maybe phones should have a "Test" feature for emergency-services? Smoke-alarms and GFCI-devices do, enabling folks to ensure that the device'll behave properly. Presumably there'd need to be some sort of systemic support for a test-feature, where emergency-services would have recognition of the concept such that they'd filter out test-calls, but only at the very last stages. This way the entire system performs the test, but operators wouldn't be tied up. Alternatively, route test-calls to a test-operator, that'd presumably be an automated system, as to not burden actual emergency-services.
  • aembleton 5y ago
    Just have another number that gets treated by systems as an emergency number. Something like 822. Then it should work without a sim, and whilst the phone is locked. 822 can then give an automated response.
    • madars 5y ago
      I like the idea. I wonder what requirements should placed on its use: 911 has features that could lead to denial-of-service https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29495078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29495078 (e.g. if a flashmob decided to 822 at the same time).
• kasabali 5y ago
  What is more worrisome than Google's response in that thread is fanboys defending it's a completely normal and expected for a 3rd party regular app to be able to take over emergency calls
• bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  I wonder if this affects emergency services in countries other than the U.S, for example in Denmark it is 112 in case of fire, accident, you need an ambulance.
• dncornholio 5y ago
  This is bad, this is very bad. That Google needs a random reddit user to debug an issue that's this severe, how many issues are there that random reddit users haven't figured out yet? I don't think Microsoft Teams is clear of blame as well. Apps trying to do more then what they are made for is a huge problem.
• thinkski 5y ago
  Software updates have also been longer and more frequent. Wonder how many people have died because their phone was updating when they needed to call 911.
• IceWreck 5y ago
  Google's Response: https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_prevented_me_from_calling_911/hnrvsr1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/comments/r4xz1f/pixel_p... Apparently this was an Android bug triggered by installing Microsoft Teams.
• habosa 5y ago
  Problems I had on Android phones at various times in the 10 years I owned them (mostly Nexus / Pixel): * Can't make calls * Can't receive calls * Can't send text messages * Can't receive text messages * Receiving text messages out of order or days late * Can't take pictures * Can take pictures, but they don't save * Phone randomly shuts down when cold * Phone randomly shuts down when hot As much as I liked Android when it worked well, in the end I realized the bugs in the OS were putting me at risk of physical harm or, at the very least, incredibly damaging data loss or missed communication. I bought myself a $400 iPhone SE. It may not have every feature I loved from Android but it's 100x smoother and more reliable. I don't regret the move.
  • abyssin 5y ago
    The only thing I regret after switching to an iPhone SE this year is the ability to use Firefox with uBlock. I regret not buying an iPhone sooner. It just works.
    • danlugo92 5y ago
      Yep.
  • igornadj 5y ago
    When Apple argues why a phone is not a general purpose computer (and therefore should not allow sideloading), this is an example of why. A phone is a general purpose computer until you need it in an emergency, in which case it _must not be_ a general purpose computer.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• causi 5y ago
  We determined that the issue was being caused by unintended interaction between the Microsoft Teams app and the underlying Android operating system. Why in the blue blazes of fuck is any app without root access capable of interfering with emergency phone calls or interacting with them in any way?
• InsomniacL 5y ago
  "and we expect a Microsoft Teams app update to be rolled out soon" Surly this should be resolved by the operating system by not allowing apps to prevent an emergency services call!?
• dangerface 5y ago
  From googles response: > Out of an abundance of caution I hate that phrase Google will release a patch for their bug out of an abundance of caution? Thats not an abundance of caution thats just standard practice.
• smallerfish 5y ago
  Lot of emotion in this thread. a) The dialer is software. Your calls are not analog. b) As a user, I _should_ have the freedom to choose a different dialer if I want. (E.g. I am on a data-only plan, and I want to use VOIP.) c) Say I'm on wifi with no tower reception (as used to be the case when I lived in Virginia, within 50 miles of DC). 911 calling over wifi works on some carriers but (I believe) not others. It's therefore fine for third party dialers to be able to handle 911 - VOIP might be by far the more reliable alternative for a particular user's circumstances. d) MS Teams registered itself to handle calls, regardless of whether or not the user was logged in, and some bug in that area caused it to lock up after the call was made. They're likely fixing this specific aspect - if you're not logged in, it will pass-through calls to the next app that's registered as a dialer. Straight up bug. e) There should be (and likely is?) a certification process for apps that want to act as the dialer. Is Google liable for distributing an app that registers as a dialer that has a bug when it comes to 911 handling? Maybe. It's a slippery slope to make the distributor liable for third party developers' bugs. f) The user stated that the emergency call was going on in the background while the UI was locked up. To the Android OS, the app was handling the call. It's pretty obvious that it'd be hard to detect. Should Android have detected the high CPU, terminated the Teams app's process, and then fallen back to the native phone dialer? Clearly not, because the call might actually have been in progress, and the operator might have been taking information from the user. Seems to me that the best Android could do is to add more functionality to the special 911 dialing UI. Specifically, it should probably prompt the user to choose which dialer to use, and within N seconds of no response automatically choose the native dialer (IF there is a tower signal, or it can route the call over wifi). If an alternate dialer is used, it should maintain an overlay on the screen allowing the user to switch to native dialer with one click, terminating the alternate app. That all said, longer term 911 itself probably needs to enter the 21st century. While it will take some time, voice calls probably won't be around with the same infrastructure in 50 or 100 years. Why shouldn't there be 911 over whatsapp, SMS, hangouts, meet, whatever else? Why shouldn't there be a 911 app that comes preloaded? Imagine being able to send video or photos to the 911 operator. Clearly there's a high bar for reliability, but bear in mind that cellular providers themselves are not offering consistent coverage across the US / world, and that land lines are going the way of the dinosaur.
  • 5y ago
• bartread 5y ago
  Lot of people making comments about Google and Android here, and I can understand why, but they aren't the only company who make an operating system where Teams interacts unfavourably with the core OS. No matter how many Windows updates I install, or how many times I update drivers and firmware, Teams on Windows 10 on my Dell laptop is a very unstable combination. When on video calls it causes problem conditions in the graphics drivers that destabilise Teams, sometimes other applications such as Firefox, and will fairly regularly bluescreen the OS. Again on video calls it also interacts poorly with Killer WiFi drivers leading to: - intermittent drop-outs in network connectivity affecting all applications, including Teams (but not other devices on my network), - total loss of WiFi connection, requiring disable/reenable of my wireless network adapter, and occasionally a machine reboot to resolve - again, OS bluescreens These problems only happen during Teams video calls, and most regularly (though not always) after the system has slept and woken at least once since its last reboot. I'm not even going to dive in to the multitude of application level problems (failing to load calendar, failing to join meetings, breaking copy & paste, and on, and on). My point is that, as much as Google is at fault here, so is Microsoft: Teams is not good software. It is not built with safe interaction with the OS in mind, and it is not well tested. Feature-wise Teams is far and away ahead of alternatives such as Zoom, and call quality is generally better than some alternatives, such as Google Hangouts, but it's let down by poor engineering and, as I've already said, inadequate testing. In the case of OP, with very serious results.
  • taspeotis 5y ago
    It sounds more like your GPU is dying, Microsoft have gone so far as to engineer user-mode display drivers that isolate the kernel from instability. The Teams UI probably stresses your graphics card in some unique way. Enable memory dumps and then get one after a bluescreen and run it through windbg.
    • bartread 5y ago
      Thanks for the tip. Weird thing is I'm not the only one experiencing these issues with the same model of laptop. Possibly a bad batch, but worthy of further investigation, for sure.
• henvic 5y ago
  One of the reasons why I bought an Amazon Ring + its monitoring subscription is to have a redundancy if something goes wrong at home. It's just easier to sleep feeling safer knowing I can reach to its panic button in the control pad and get in touch with someone, in case of an emergency (the alarm system has internal battery and has redundancy using cellular data).
• xondono 5y ago
  I don’t know which is more surprising, that this happened or that Google Support answered!
• dhanna 5y ago
  This is a serious issue but the low brow takes here all ignore the fact that computers are extremely complex and buggy as hell.
• ryanmercer 5y ago
  Peripherally related and also on a made for Google phone (Nexus 6p IIRC)... several years ago I called 911 and found that I couldn't use my phone for a short period after https://www.ryanmercer.com/ryansthoughts/2016/7/25/how-the-government-shut-down-my-phone-calling-911 https://www.ryanmercer.com/ryansthoughts/2016/7/25/how-the-g... They claim it is so 911 can call you back in the event of a dropped call but oof, just not cool.
• BurnGpuBurn 5y ago
  I can imagine all the hate, but I think it's only natural for Microsoft Teams to hijack your calling functionality and make it work only when logged in with your Microsoft account. How else can they snoop on all your phone calls? Teams is free, they have to make money somehow, you know. You pay with your data. I can imagine they will record all your calls too, because let's face it, how much is a call log without a recording worth anyway?
• Cort3z 5y ago
  (In advance, I apologize if this seems unnecessarily harsh, but it is description of a real event and the thought process of younger me) Unrelated, but in 2012 or something like that, I was out walking, on my way to a meeting. I literally stopped mid walk, and turned another direction, went to a store and bought an iPhone. My, at the time, state of the art Samsung galaxy S3 had just prevented me from answer an incoming call due to a software bug. As the S3 froze and then crashed, a crushing realization hit me; what I was holding wasn't a phone, but something else. I was even a poor student at the time, but due to engagements, I was completely dependent on my phone working, or as I then realized: "Having a phone".
• swiley 5y ago
  >We are currently only aware of one user report related to the occurrence of this bug. Sounds about par for the Android team's awareness of what a steaming pile of cow dung their OS is. I gave up on Android long ago and I'm aware of many reports like this.
• AstralStorm 5y ago
  Normally these things are tested on a GSM network emulator as emergency calls are specified separately in the standards. Someone really messed up the compliance testing - probably because it was never tested with fake location enabled.
• ineedasername 5y ago
  They need to get that phone to the FCC so the FCC can get take a look and put Google's feet over the fire to get them to figure out what the heck happened. Edit: I just read through some of the Reddit comments and see that Teams was the culprit, which is an insane bug: There is no way that a user space app should be able to do this. I also still think the FCC should do their own work on it too. They need to make sure Google isn't downplaying this, and is actually taking steps at the highest priority to make sure an app can't do this.
• giantg2 5y ago
  Someone died in Philly years ago due to a 911 system error that sent emergency responders to the wrong location. The father was a local COBOL developer and was somehow able to fix the bug (no idea if source was available or if he rewrote the system). The city didn't want to implement his fix, so he had to sue them to have them use the fix. I wish I could find the article to provide more details.
  • aaronharnly 5y ago
    This doesn't match your description exactly, but I wonder if this is the case you're thinking of: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/12/13/disturbing-questions-haunt-philadelphia-after-teens-violent-death/6f6b22b7-7098-47cc-ae70-3db85a03b66c/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1994/12/13/d...
    • giantg2 5y ago
      I'm not sure. I thought it was a different, but maybe.
• mensetmanusman 5y ago
  With built-in GPS, there should be an even better option to call directly the most relevant emergency office instead of being passed around.
• Lamad123 5y ago
  I see a black squirrel, which is kinda rare .. I pull the phone to take a picture and somehow it gets stuck and asks me to enter my pin.. Suddenly it doesn't recognize ,y fingerprint.. I finally get the camera app to open... It takes another second to be able to take the picture.. By the time the phone is ready, the squirrel is gone!!
  • josefresco 5y ago
    I'm from the Northeast but have only seen grey, red and flying squirrels. Visited family in NYC and one day I see a black squirrel. Blew my mind!
• albertopv 5y ago
  I wonder if this issue apply in Europe also, where we have (well, we are in the middle of the transition) to a single 112 common emergency number...
• rPlayer6554 5y ago
  I see people disagreeing if this is Microsoft or Google's fault. I think if there is a use case for using a 3rd party app for the 911 call, either A. Google should have some way of detecting if the 911 call went through and/or B. Have a popup when you call 911 through a 3rd party app that says "that didn't work, force my 911 call through" which uses the system phone app.
• iandanforth 5y ago
  Based on the post timestamps it took up to 9 days for Google to respond publicly. In some ways this is impressively fast (but only for Google.) In others it's incredibly slow because revenue impacting production issues get addressed in hours. Question for HN: Is there any formal critical contact network between Google, MS, Apple or other large companies? In incident responses like this are people relying on personal contacts?
• johnchristopher 5y ago
  I wish 911 and European emergency phone calls were handled by a totally different piece of hardware, mostly separated from the rest of the phone and with maybe a certification process that guarantees it "just works". Smartphones are now super cool mini computers but not phones first anymore :/.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• madars 5y ago
  It is worth pointing out that while Google will not push an emergency hotfix for this for a whole month (promised time: January 4 update), they did push a contract tracing malware for everyone in Massachusetts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27558500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27558500 no problem. The latter even overrode all "please don't auto-update apps" settings.
• marcus_cemes 5y ago
  From Google's response: > If you are unsure what Android version you are on, confirm you are running Android 10 or above My Xperia X is still on 8.0.0, it only got a few months of updates before they just silently stopped sending them, displaying that my "device is up to date!". This is a widespread problem in the Android market, in comparison, my iPad Air 2 is still getting updates 8 years after release. Google keep saying that they want to work on this, but realistically, is it ever going to happen?
  • im3w1l 5y ago
    > If you are not running Android 10 or above, you are not impacted by this issue. 9 and below not affected. It's not the clearest phrasing, I had to do a double-take while reading it.
• mig39 5y ago
  A lot of people are hesitant to call 911 to test things out. Thinking it's illegal or whatever. My experience (Canada) has been that they don't like it when you call and hang up. But I would sometimes call and say "Hi, I'm mig39 from my organization, and I'm just testing that I've programmed the phone system here to dial 911 properly." They had no problem with that at all.
• exabrial 5y ago
  There should be a multi-million dollar fine for even a single failure. This is atrocious.
• dreamcompiler 5y ago
  This is one reason I advise people in our emergency service area to use a landline for dialing 911 if they can. Landlines are more reliable and they tend to provide better location information than cell phones because they are fixed to a service address. Also, as many of the Reddit comments state it's perfectly okay to call 911 and immediately tell the dispatcher you're testing and ask them to read you the address that appears on their console. I do it all the time in various places around our service area for QC purposes.
• DJPocari 5y ago
  Wow. I'm surprised this is still an issue. My friend was suicidal a few years ago and I couldn't call 911 on the original Google Pixel. Made a scary situation that much worse. Made sure the next phone I bought was an iPhone. You'd think it would be fixed by now.
• Symmetry 5y ago
  Android is traditionally an open system that allows you to mess with the system in all sorts of ways. I've previously replaced the default launcher and I know that you can replace the default lock screen if you want to. But that means that you can install a lock screen that prevents people without your password from making emergency calls, here's the first set of instructions I found Googling it. https://www.thecustomdroid.com/remove-emergency-call-button-android/ https://www.thecustomdroid.com/remove-emergency-call-button-... Normally I feel like it's a strength of the Android operating system that users are allowed to make whatever changes they want, including handing off all responsibility for phone calls to Microsoft or whatever. But in cases like this where users might not understand what that means I wonder how we can put in better guardrails while still maintaining the systems flexibility.
• testfrequency 5y ago
  Remember when the Facebook API went down and it caused iOS to brick? I do, and Facebook no longer has native iOS support
• jokoon 5y ago
  Not surprising. The more complex a project is, the more difficult it becomes to make sure it's reliable. I have way more trust towards an old nokia phone for that kind of thing than any smartphone. It's odd how security and reliability are better retained for more minimal softwares. I guess this will always be true. That's why it's always better to do one simple thing and do it well. The more feature you add, the more you need to increase constraints and add new rules, at an exponential rate.
• mikotodomo 5y ago
  This is just an anecdote. Smart tech is a net positive for your safety in general. There have probably been millions of times where auto location transmission has saved lives or prevented harm. Companies don't have to invest more resources in testing. They already have metrics to prove their product is as functional as it needs to be. > I'm supposed to trust that a phone will do the main thing is built for, and place the call, and let me speak to the human on the other end. We are not in 1990. Smart phones are only similar to phones in that they have "phone" in the name.
  • crvdgc 5y ago
    Am I missing the joke or something? You quoted a sentence from just above the updated statement that Google has confirmed the issue and working on solving it.
    • mikotodomo 5y ago
      What do you mean? My quote is not something Google said.
• CosmicCarl 5y ago
  It's almost unbelievable.. If not even Google can make their own software work on their own hardware, can you trust Android phones at all? Not that I'm particularly impressed by Apple's phones or computers for that matter, it seems they refuse to work without a connection to phone back home to Apple.
• olliej 5y ago
  I don’t know the Android UI for it, but on iOS there’s a very fast path to emergency call even when the phone is locked, and when done manually it identifies the call as being an emergency. My opinion is that given that the phone knows you’re making an emergency call it should immediately kill all non system apps (including Builtin apps like the browser, messaging, etc being killed) to minimize chance of something like this happening, and to maximize battery life
• KingOfCoders 5y ago
  Same people who want Android for more freedom now complain about Teams taking over the phone.
• s1r3x 5y ago
  I'm from Australia and it currently looks like this prevented my mother calling an ambulance for her neighbour with a suspected heart attack about a month ago. I saw this article, told her to test dialing 000 (Australias 911 equivalent), it failed, then she uninstalled teams and the call went through. This was on a Galaxy Note 9.