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Toyota is quietly pushing Congress to slow the shift to electric vehicles
- thehappypm 5y agoLuddites gonna Luddite. Too bad, really, since Toyota kicked off the hybrid revolution, now they're hitched to the wrong horse and being babies.
- ocdtrekkie 5y agoYeah, this is an unfortunate transition considering Toyota has generally been the most technologically sophisticated mainstream car manufacturer. When I recently did some test driving, Toyotas were by far the most advanced vehicles I test drove, I'd expect them to have no difficulty competing in a post-combustion environment. I didn't end up purchasing a Toyota this time around, but only because the primary criteria to meet wasn't technological superiority.
- browningstreet 5y agoHuh? They’re very much not advanced. They’re simpler cars than their rivals, which allows for higher dependability. That’s the whole crux of their offering. (on my second Toyota, after years of driving Audi’s)
- ocdtrekkie 5y agoFor your base model Camry, sure. But on the higher trim levels, you'll see a lot of features and options other manufacturers don't even have. And a lot of companies have "a hybrid model" or "an electric model", but that's it. Bear in mind, the most common class of car today is the crossover or SUV. Toyota can sell you any model of its cars as a hybrid. Meanwhile, when I shop around other SUVs, and then ask if they sell it as a hybrid, they give me a dumbfounded look, like the idea of selling a car with a third row seat that has a hybrid engine is absolutely ludicrous.
- t0mbstone 5y agoOohh I see what you mean. I thought you were talking about their technology like automatic cruise control (with full stop-and-go) and lane keep assist. Subaru and Hyundai, for example, have both had those technologies in their cars since around 2013 or so, while Toyota literally only just recently released those features a year or so ago. And Toyota's lane keep assist is TERRIBLE.
- ocdtrekkie 5y agoI ended up buying a Kia (which shares it's DNA with a similar Hyundai model), and I can confirm that their automatic cruise control is stellar, FWIW.
- browningstreet 5y ago...instead of working on EVs, so now they find themselves behind in the changing market, so they lobby for higher emission standards. They may offer more hybrids across their product line-up, but their in-car/dash tech is far behind, and Lexus has been a laggard for many years.
- jrsj 5y agoIn a way being able to engineer and produce something simpler at a large scale very consistently with few defects is more advanced than having more advanced but unreliable technology you sell at a lower volume
- vsskanth 5y agoToyota aren't technologically sophisticated by design. They only use tried and tested technology which have been out for years. This is how they have stellar reliability. However I think they really innovated on hybrids. German OEMs have the most new mechanical tech followed by the Americans.
- delfinom 5y agoNo, the problem is domestically, the Japanese government wants Toyota to do fuel cells, not batteries. It's causing no doubt development problems for them to work on both.
- jazzyjackson 5y agoDoes Japan have some advantage with hydrogen I don’t know about? EDIT: thanks, the possibility that they could create a local industry of manufacturing fuel cells instead of relying on foreign-manufactured batteries makes a lot of sense to me.
- paulmd 5y agoJapan generally has the population density to roll out new infrastructure very quickly, so while I have no idea if they have any existing infrastructure in that area, the feeling may be that hydrogen is a "better" solution and they would rather just roll that out instead of the "easier, worse" solution (which also requires an infrastructure roll out to a large degree - just not as much as hydrogen). I'm not saying hydrogen actually is better here, mind you, but if they think so, they may want to just go ahead and do it.
- thehappypm 5y agoIt’s funny because the infrastructure for electric cars is just a supplement to existing grids, vs hydrogen which needs new pipelines/trucks/filling stations.
- paulmd 5y agothat's what I'm saying, Japan is a small enough and dense enough country that rolling out a more complicated set of infrastructure is easier than it would be to do it in a place like the US. So maybe their thought is that electric is a half-measure and the "right" way is hydrogen, and they'll just roll it out and be done with it, because that's what Japan does. The kink in the plan being that the rest of the world is going the other way.
- rglover 5y ago> Toyota’s top executives, including billionaire CEO Akio Toyoda, have been on the record calling the trend toward electric vehicles “overhyped” in part because of emissions associated with power plants — which is a favorite talking point used by the oil and gas industry. How is this just brushed off as NBD? Where do people think the energy is going to come from for these electric vehicles (especially if everyone drives one/fossil fueled vehicles are restricted)?
- jmoss20 5y agoIt's easier to build solar farms than solar cars. (wind farms than wind powered cars, nuclear plants than nuclear powered cars...)
- ryeights 5y agoSwitching to electric vehicles is a necessary but not sufficient condition to eliminate fossil fuel emissions.
- exhilaration 5y agoBut Toyota is pushing hydrogen as a superior alternative, which isn't any cleaner. Most hydrogen is made from steam-methane reforming using equally vast amounts of natural gas. Source: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-na...
- kalleboo 5y agoIsn't this the same argument Toyota is making? With electricity depending on where you live you could say "Most electricity is made from coal! So an electric car is way worse for the environment!"
- dubcanada 5y agoWho says it's a "NBD"? Do you think we should stop selling electric cars because electricity is dirty? Someone has to start, and it's not exactly easy to convert every power grid, it's a lot easier to start using it more and more and new power sources are green and older dirty is phased out slowly.
- joghues 5y agoI can't see why Toyota, one of the auto giants, is struggling with electric vehicles. I hope that they will allocate funds sufficient for EV research and development to become competent enough to stay in the space. They should avoid what Nokia did as it falls to its demise in the rise of touchscreens and the smartphone revolution.
- chrisseaton 5y agoThey’re a huge dinosaur. Obviously they cannot turn around quickly.
- browningstreet 5y agoThey’re struggling with EVs because, in the past, they came out against them. So, because they didn’t want to not-struggle with them.
- colinmhayes 5y agoI read that Toyota went all in on hydrogen fuel cells instead of the battery tech everyone else uses. Apparently it didn't work so they had to redesign the car which caused the delay.
- thinkling 5y agoI believe access to battery supply is one of the bottlenecks in changing course. Globally, batteries are in high demand and forecast supply is spoken for. Others like VW have been investing to ensure sufficient supply for their EV production. So my guess is that Toyota is unable to change direction quickly enough to meet proposed deadlines for full electrification. It seems to me that there's a medium-term role for (plug-in) hybrids and that Toyota could serve that niche well if the legal structure allowed them to get "partial EV" credit for those cars.
- danhor 5y agoThe issue with hybrids is that they're often used as a regular non-EV car, resulting in very little reduction of emissions. Combined with more energy-intensive production, this makes them pretty useless when looking at their environmental impact (especially when considering long ranges, people aren't going to charge every ~40km).
- hacknat 5y agoToyota might be smart enough to realize that Tesla has a supply chain that will be difficult to beat. It's going to be a shit-show among the remaining contenders once all of their hands are forced.
- mullen 5y agoBut Toyota has build quality that Tesla can't touch. Toyota won't be starting from scratch, they will starting from the point of making great high quality ICE vehicles and converting those to EV. Tesla build quality is not that great but they have better tech and understanding of their EV customers than Toyota does.
- karmicthreat 5y agoToyota isn't the shining star it once was. Cost cutting has pulled Toyota vehicles much closer to the industry average. As well as the general quality level of American and korean automakers improving over the last 10 years. Notable exceptions being the Prius and some of the Lexus lineup.
- nixass 5y agoWell if Toyota is "bad" then Tesla is at best on par with some eastern European manufacturers.
- slaw 5y agoAre there any Eastern European manufactures left?
- Peanuts99 5y agoSkoda (although owned by VW) are eastern European and they make extremely reliable cars owing to using all the VW technology a few years after its deployed and fixed. About everywhere I go Skoda seems to be the brand of choice for taxi drivers - usually a good sign.
- reaperducer 5y agoHere's the original journalism, instead of The Verge's rewrite of someone else's work. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h...
- JKCalhoun 5y agoChrist, what assholes. Really nothing good about Toyota in this article.
- slg 5y agoIt is moves like this which show the tremendous impact of Tesla. The old automakers were never going to be the ones to push the switch to greener tech themselves. Even the companies that we may have thought were forward looking a decade ago like Toyota are now showing that they had no plans to embrace cleaner vehicles as an overall company strategy. The industry needed an outsider to threaten the incumbents into actually changing.
- bin_bash 5y agoI wonder if Ford manages to get their sales numbers up if they may become a force like Tesla
- vel0city 5y agoAs someone who was recently on the hunt for a Mach E, they need to get production numbers up. Mach E Premiums are 24 weeks backordered, dealerships often only have a mannequin to look at. I called around to several dealerships in my area to even find one to test drive, and I'm in a pretty massive metro area. Its still pretty early numbers-wise, but to me it seems they can't build them fast enough to satiate the already existing demand.
- fossuser 5y agoToyota was still going on about how EVs were not viable and hydrogen fuel cells were the future while anyone who looked outside their window would see EVs all over the place. Elon's early responses to this remain true (grid already exists, people can charge at home, easier to build EV infrastructure, etc.) - there's been nearly zero progress in hydrogen fuel cells. Hybrids were a mediocre half-measure and hydrogen was a worse solution to the problem. Tesla proved this model despite constant criticism even after wild success. It's not a huge surprise Toyota is throwing their weight around to try to cheat out some legislative relevance rather than compete on product. Many companies being disrupted do that (see recent viasat story, US car dealerships, etc.) I hope they lose, imo they deserve it.
- weaksauce 5y ago
- RubberShoes 5y agoWhat's this? A company that's blinded by its current profit margins to see the shifting tide in its industry? Haven't seen this before: https://techcrunch.com/2016/05/17/how-intel-missed-the-iphone-revolution/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/05/17/how-intel-missed-the-iphon...
- partiallypro 5y agoHow is Toyota saying something is impractical different than Tesla lobbying congress to push for something that benefits themselves and is actually impractical? There are two sides to this. Toyota vehicles still outlast every vehicle on the planet. Tesla has no proven track record for longevity. If I have to buy 2 Teslas for the lifetime of one Toyota that manufacturing footprint is going to cancel out a large part of the benefits of going electric to begin with.
- CountDrewku 5y agoWhat shift? Electric isn't viable for most people still. If it was you wouldn't need to do anything to get Toyota to switch. The fact they have to put all these regulations in place and force people to accept electric is telling enough. The top selling vehicle in the US in the F-150. There is no replacement EV that can come close to offering what the ICE F-150 can.
- speedgoose 5y ago> Toyota is lagging behind the rest of industry It's a very polite way of saying that Toyota is selling electric shit boxes. The brand new Lexus UX 300e is so bad and overpriced that it will not surprise me if Toyota's plan is to make a bad selling car on purpose to say that customers don't want EVs.
- bluedino 5y agoAt one time, the Prius was the top-rated vehicle.
- jeffbee 5y agoToyota killed the Prius in the USA with the RAV4 hybrid, which kinda sucks because being heavy and brick-shaped and equipped with a larger engine, the latter burns much more fuel. The Highlander is even worse: with its huge V6, it is a hybrid that gets only 25 MPG. Ridiculous. Toyota owns about half the US hybrid vehicle market but the Prius is now a small part of that.
- mcast 5y agoThe Highlander Hybrid gets 36/35 mpg, but that’s not much better than the all-gas model at 21/29 mpg. But if you drive in constant traffic the regenerative braking gives you better mileage than coasting at a constant speed (sometimes better than MPG stats which Toyota underreports), which also means less pollution on traffic congested roads. For many families, a Prius quickly becomes impractical if you need to fit in more than one car seat for kids and carry around bulky items. Toyota’s hybrid offering is a good middle ground between full-gas and EV cars and very reliable considering how many old Prius’s are still on the road at 200k+ miles.
- jeffbee 5y agoWas just going from Fuelly. I think sticker MPG is almost useless. Fuelly says the 3.5L is the most common hybrid and the mode is 26 MPG[1], while the same-displacement without the hybrid reports 21 MPG[2]. 1: https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/highlander?engineconfig_id=364&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/highlander?engineconfig_id... 2: https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/highlander?engineconfig_id=102&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/highlander?engineconfig_id...
- kreetx 5y agoDidn't Toyota own a substantial amount of Tesla stock? Edit: Come to think of it, they should be in a huge profit at the moment.
- xedeon 5y agoBoth Toyota and Daimler did and collaborated on tech actually. The Tesla stock they once owned would have been worth more than their current respective market caps. Tesla, Mercedes pair up to create a mainstream EV with 115-mile range (B-Class) https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/153888-tesla-mercedes-pair-up-to-create-a-mainstream-ev-with-115-mile-range https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/153888-tesla-mercedes-pa... https://www.tesla.com/blog/strategic-partnership-daimler-acquires-stake-tesla https://www.tesla.com/blog/strategic-partnership-daimler-acq... Toyota Unveils 'RAV4 EV' Jointly Developed with Tesla https://global.toyota/en/detail/152289 https://global.toyota/en/detail/152289
- djanogo 5y agoInstead of everybody jumping on bandwagon and siding with every legislature to be PC, individuals and companies have right to challenge those laws or on how practical they are. These challenges will naturally yield better laws considering the huge wave already behind the electric vehicles. "Toyota’s Indian subsidiary publicly criticized India’s target for 100 percent electric vehicle sales by 2030, saying it was not practical.", the keyword being not practical, country which struggles with electricity during summer and rations farmers electricity is legislating 100% electric?
- Zigurd 5y agoThose laws won't be better if all this amounts to is special pleading to not obsolete Toyota's R&D and capex in gas engines. India also "struggles" with petroleum infrastructure, safe handling, pollution, etc.
- btgeekboy 5y agoSounds like they’ll be able to leverage that legislation to encourage grid improvements.
- Causality1 5y agoJust like Google Stadia made ISPs stop having data caps?
- dylan604 5y agoMyabe they can hire Enron to build them more gas power plants to not use.
- WillDaSilva 5y agoYou're right that challenging legislature can improve it, but it would be naive to assume that Toyota has the goal of improving it for anyone/anything other than their bottom line. They are solely driven by their profit motive, and so it is safe to assume they are never participating in the legislative process in good faith, i.e. for the betterment of the public and the world. Instead they are only participating in the legislative process with the expectation that they can gain additional power and profit. Once we take that into consideration, it's hard to see their pushback against electric vehicles in a good light.
- asplake 5y agoHistorically a fan of Toyota and I loved the RAV4 hybrid I had until a couple of years ago. Saw the writing on the wall though when they started their “self-charging hybrid” nonsense, like we don’t all know a euphemism when we hear one
- jeffbee 5y agoSeriously how hard is it to make an electric car? These guys are acting like they never heard of the sunk cost fallacy. It should be a piece of cake to retool Toyota for electrics, they are already a huge consumer of batteries and make plug-in hybrids.
- gibolt 5y agoHard. Batteries are unavailable in required quantities, and extremely expensive to spool up. Doing so would make most of their existing factories and tooling worthless assets. (They will be anyway, just unwilling to make the transition proactively, and likely be a tiny shadow of their former selves)
- xedeon 5y agoMost people don't realize this. Even Panasonic, which is the most experienced and produce most of the Li-ion batteries today is still struggling to expand their GWh capacity.
- jeffbee 5y agoThe global lithium-ion battery market is expanding at a CAGR > 25%. Hardly a struggle.
- xedeon 5y agoNot all li-ion batteries are the same. They have to be a certain chemistry and form factor. With cylindrical (18650) being the most common that Panasonic manufactures. Because they can be produced quickly, hence the lower cost per kWh. They are also a Tier 1 lithium-ion battery producer. Meaning they produce the highest-quality lithium-ion batteries, for automotive use. Samsung and LG Chem are also Tier 1. But Panasonic is certainly more mature and have more experience (but more conservative like Toyota). Which I already mentioned earlier.
- gibolt 5y agoThat is the fastest they can go, while EV vehicle demand growth exceeds that CAGR. When the 3 industry titans can only together drive ~15-20% annual growth, it is most definitely a struggle.
- Zigurd 5y agoIf you look at how amazingly reliable car engines and transmissions are now, you can see why stranding that investment is going to be hard for car makers to swallow. Nevertheless, it should be done. A gas car is like a perfected minimally harmful cigarette. Still something that should go away.
- space_rock 5y ago30% efficiency is where combustion engines maxed out. No doubt the legacy manufacturers got every inch out of them but it's still not the best technology
- nostromo 5y ago> [Toyota] has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix. This is totally fair; I'm glad Toyota is making this case. Hybrids like the Prius should be part of our solution to curb co2. Unlike Teslas, Priuses are actually affordable to a large number of Americans.
- CarVac 5y agoIf Toyota were serious about this, then every vehicle they make should be a hybrid, instead of a mere 20-something percent.
- dartdartdart 5y agoAren't they one of the most hybridized car companized out there, offering hybrids from compact car to minivan. Even Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid technology
- CarVac 5y agoThey do offer them, but not on every vehicle (particularly the pickups and more trucklike SUVs), and only 23% of NA Toyotas and Lexuses were hybrids in Q1 2021. If they believe that fuel cell vehicles are the future, they ought to hybridize every gasoline vehicle they sell right now, because fuel cell vehicles will only require more batteries and more electric motor capacity than hybrids. If they hypothetically believed that electric cars were the future but still want to wait to release full-electrics, they ought to hybridize every individual vehicle sold while they build up production capacity for batteries and motors. For reference, normal hybrids have only about 2 kWh of battery, about 1/30 the capacity and anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 the motor power compared to a pure EV. 23% isn't that bad, but that's 23% hybrid: it's still only baby steps towards either pure electric or fuel cell. This leads me to only one conclusion: they're not serious about pushing production of either fuel cells or electric vehicles.
- dartdartdart 5y ago
- 908B64B197 5y agoImagine DEC and IBM going to congress to try to pass laws against these "Micro-Computers" that are popping up on desks. Or BlackBerry back when it was still relevant trying to legislate that touch screen can't be bigger than X on phones...
- freedomben 5y agoYes, if the federal government were subsidizing "micro-computers" and DEC/IBM were asking the gov to prop them up a little bit less.
- dalbasal 5y agoIt's hard to overstate how influential Toyota has been, historically, on legislatures and legislation. Trade agreements, for the past 40-ish years, have been the keystone piece of both trade and industrial policy. These agreements are designed around the auto industry, and its JIT, and global supply chain it necessitates. Auto manufacturing is basically the model industry. The auto industry of 90s onward, was basically modeled on Toyota and The Toyota Way. The classification of subindustries, the structure of tariffs... Most of it is directly or indirectly a product of decisions made at Toyota. For better or worse, they invented modern global manufacturing. It's sad to see them where they seem to be today.
- okareaman 5y agoFirst they were continuing to donate money to congress members who wouldn't certify the presidential election until The Lincoln Project called them out and now this. I'm actually looking at purchasing a car. I'll keep Toyota off the my list.
- CommieBobDole 5y agoThe two are probably connected - these members of Congress were the ones they needed to target for for whatever reason, and somebody made a decision that this effort was worth the potential PR hit.
- abeppu 5y agoThe article doesn't really touch on it but someone here will know: do we have any kind of projections on how long it would take us to shift to EVs (e.g. proportion of vehicles on the road which are electric over time) and how that compares to the rates at which charging and electrical infra can be improved/expanded? Does that second point hinge on the current infrastructure bill?
- acomjean 5y agoI live in a city and don't have a dedicated space. I'm not sure how they're going to put in EV charging infrastructure for us. I'm not alone in this problem, so I"m not sure how an EV would work for me or a lot of us City dwellers.. I guess they could make us go to a charging station for 30 minutes every week, or put in charging stations along each street. Maybe battery swapping? The cities seem to have the most to gain from having cleaner air.
- abeppu 5y agoI live in a city, and though I have a dedicated space, I cannot independently choose to put in EV charging infrastructure, so I also don't know how this will work out in my current place. But I'm more thinking like ... Texas had its giant power outage. California sometimes has rolling blackouts. If a large proportion of vehicles were electric, the current system couldn't handle it, right? And if a large power outage in turn has follow-on effects on transportation where it's suddenly harder for goods or people to leave, that seems even worse. So I hope _someone_ has a plan for how the power grid and energy storage and charging infrastructure all need to grow and become more robust at the right pace, in parallel with EV adoption. And that plan, I hope, includes projections on both EV adoption and charging infra availability and power grid capacity and resilience?
- totalZero 5y agoCharging infrastructure buildout will no doubt influence new EV sales, but the timeline of a transition to EVs on the road (as opposed to the dealer's lot) is largely a function of the secondary (used) market. The secondary market, I think, will transition slowly because as EV take-up increases, the price of gasoline is likely to fall. Several manufacturers have already announced waypoints for their transition to EV. Audi is targeting 2026 for a full phase-out of ICE [0]. Among its light-duty products, GM aims to sell only ZEVs by 2035 [1]. Ford passenger vehicles sold in Europe will all be electric by 2030 [2]. I could list more, but the message is clear; it is an impending transition and automakers will likely use certain marques as a beachhead for going fully EV while keeping the ICE vehicles compartmentalized in other marques. A headline of "Jaguar plans to be all electric by 2025" is more compelling than "Tata Group plans to sell more electric cars by 2025," even though both headlines describe the same story. Similarly, automakers that have struggled for the past decade or two (eg, the American ones) seem to be taking this opportunity to redefine their role in the market as first-movers. Price and perceived cost of ownership (net maintenance and repairs) are a major part of consumer choices, too. As an extreme example, look at places like Ecuador where new vehicles are so heavily taxed that it's common to see forty-year-old cars on the road. The old cars hold value because few can afford the new ones. If EVs are not price competitive, perhaps there won't be so many customers willing to pay a premium for them. As far as I am aware [3], the current version of the infrastructure bill as negotiated does indeed include a hefty sum for EV charging stations. I for one believe this is an impactful decision given the long-known chicken and egg problem that EVs face. Ultimately, I think we are slowly reaching the point where the incentive for private businesses to install chargers is becoming clear. Tesla for one is opening its charging infrastructure to other brands [4]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/audi-sets-2026-end-date-combustion-engine-cars-sueddeutsche-zeitung-2021-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/audi-s... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/business/gm-zero-emission-vehicles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/28/business/gm-zero-emission... [2] http://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2021/02/17/ford-europe-goes-all-in-on-evs-on-road-to-sustainable-profitabil.html http://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2021/02/... [3] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-infrastructure-deal-would-fund-electric-buses-charging-stations-2021-06-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-inf... [4] https://www.barrons.com/articles/elon-musk-tesla-charging-network-51627090559 https://www.barrons.com/articles/elon-musk-tesla-charging-ne...
- freedomben 5y agoI'm really optimistic and hopeful for the future of electric vehicles, but that article was incredibly slanted. It seems to start with the premise that electric is better in every way and anyone arguing otherwise is only doing so to protect their profits. What TFA fails to articulate is that Toyota is NOT pushing congress to slow the shift to electric by interfering in the market to prevent a natural disruption. They're asking them to interfere LESS so that there's more time for the market to adjust naturally rather than respond to artificial pressure that makes electric more competitive than it is without special favors. It's presented as lobbying, but it more like lobbying against lobbying. Presentational digs like this don't inspire me to think the author is politically neutral: > Toyota, which sided with the Trump administration in its battle with California I am glad that they at least mentioned that there is some merit to hydrogen cells too. There are people who live in very remote places where electric is not possible, and in some cases extremely dangerous. If the people who live in the big city make it economically infeasible to have anything that's not electric, it's going to devastate some people's way of life.
- xoa 5y ago>What TFA fails to articulate is that Toyota is NOT pushing congress to slow the shift to electric by interfering in the market to prevent a natural disruption. They're asking them to interfere LESS so that there's more time for the market to adjust naturally rather than respond to artificial pressure that makes electric more competitive than it is without special favors. It's presented as lobbying, but it more like lobbying against lobbying. Complete, utter bullshit from you. The ICE market is horribly, fantastically warped and subsidized by lack of carbon cost internalization. Actually there are lots of flat out fossil fuel subsidies/tax breaks on top of that too, but massive externalities trump even that. Your "interference" is just the barest most minimal effort to start to right that. If all fossil fuels were made by law carbon neutral (by pricing in the cost of emitting a ton of CO2 at a competitive bid on the price of rapid industrial removal of a ton of CO2), along with any other externalities, then we could talk about stopping other interference to let the Free Market properly work. Toyota is absolutely seeking to slow the shift here and preserve their existing subsidized profits. And they are wrong to do so.
- ffggvv 5y ago> The executive, Chris Reynolds, has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix. I don't see whats wrong with this. The media always just twists things. It sounds like they are advocating that the government shouldn't just choose the winner as EV's already when maybe the future could be hydrogen. Whats the problem with subsidizing both EV and hydrogen, not just choosing EV as the winner?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoBecause hydrogen for cars makes no sense. It's all made from natural gas (and if we produce it from water, it would take at least thrice more energy than what's needed to charge the same energy in a battery... at best), it's more expensive, it's far more dangerous, the infrastructure is not there (and never will, you can't put a hydrogen station in every garage), etc. It only makes sense for chemicals, stell production, fertilizers, seasonal energy storage, and long distance transportation (search images for "hydrogen ladder"). But the O&G industry bet big on hydrogen a long time ago, and got a few auto giants like Toyota to jump in. It was a bad choice (but who could oppose the energy leaders back then?) and it's too late now.
- ffggvv 5y agothat’s not really for you to decide by fiat. toyota clearly believes in it and they have billions at stake. it wouldn’t be that hard for them to pivot to fully electric. only time will bear it out, not just arbitrarily saying stuff like that and locking us into one approach >> you can't put a hydrogen station in every garage i assume we’d just have gas stations which already exist? i’ve heard equally compelling arguments against electric
- post_break 5y agoToyota is always the slowest to adopt. I believe they were the last hold out for carplay android auto next to subaru. They would put the same 5.7 V8 in the Tundra for the next 20 years if they had their way.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago> Toyota is always the slowest to adopt. Toyota had the first widely popular electric hybrid in the US.
- softfalcon 5y agoAnd this is a feature for many folks. When you're buying for reliability, it's nice to hear "this engine design has been the same for 10 years and is bullet-proof" rather than "this new engine tech is an unknown" in the reviews. I do feel Toyota has the resources and skill to make EV mainstream, but I understand their reluctance moving away from a solid tried and true manufacturing + business plan.
- tonyarkles 5y agoNo clue if they've got CarPlay or Android Auto in the current generation of Tacomas, but I just recently bought a 2016 Taco and I am absolutely loving how smooth the stereo works with my phone. Sure, there's no screen mirroring or whatever those things do, but it just does the right thing all the time with respect to music, texts/iMessage, and phone calls. When I've taken calls on the road, people have been surprised that I was talking on speaker in the truck because they couldn't tell the difference.
- hateful 5y agoI've heard in the past that auto makers have EPA quotas to make that are based on the average of all of their vehicles, so they would create an electric or hybrid car just to bring down the averages to acceptable levels. Not sure if that applies now-a-days, or is even true.
- mikestew 5y agoI believe you're thinking of CAFE standards: https://www.transportation.gov/mission/sustainability/corporate-average-fuel-economy-cafe-standards https://www.transportation.gov/mission/sustainability/corpor...
- yawaworht1978 5y agoI do not understand why people think either electro or fuel cars will cause a good shift. Ok maybe exhaust emissions will be less, but the real issues about city traffic are rush hour and peak traffic times, vehicle for 4 transports 1 or 2 people at a time mostly, no parking available in big cities, except at extortion level prices. I do not know any solution other than an extremely well connected and efficient public transport system, or levitation capsules. But this friction between ev and fuel hybrid etc vendors , it's the modern equivalent of when people argued whether a donkey or a horse is more practical. All the save the air arguments are hypocritical at best, the marketing teams are targeting the lazy who should simply walk more to feel better about themselves and the environment. The mass adaption that would save something, including many peoples health would be not driving a car, or better, walking, bycicle when possible.
- Invictus0 5y agoIt's obvious that you don't live in the United States. The nearest grocery store from my suburban house is 2.3 miles away. It's a 1hr walk or a 30 minute bike ride, and to get there, I would need to scale a 400 ft elevation gain each way. The gym is 3 miles from my house in the opposite direction. I would bike there but the only road is extremely narrow and quite frankly dangerous to ride on. There is simply no way I can conduct my life without a car, and I say that as someone that loves to ride a bike and frequently rides 50mi and over.
- yawaworht1978 5y agoSure, i know, the US has crowded, big cities and many remote suburban areas. I am not against the use of any car, electro or not, I am a realist. However, the US is not the whole world, albeit a big market. But to get all manufacturers to do the same, there has to be a market that's as big as possible. There are many countries stricken by poverty (no purchasing power), inadequate roads and no electro infrastructure for cars in sight.
- sorokod 5y agoIs this sustainable? Is this not a problem that requires a solution? Was watching the Simpsons with my eight year old. He remarked that they must be rich to own two cars.
- kumarski 5y agoMeanwhile, China went from 6000 Compressed Natural Gas vehicles in 2000 to 6M compressed natural gas vehicles 2017. 1000x increase. Egypt is pushing for 10% to 20% of all vehicles in the country to be CNG within 24 months or less. What do they know that we don't? Electric vehicles are a platform for tax dollar absorption.
- danans 5y ago> China went from 6000 Compressed Natural Gas vehicles in 2000 to 6M compressed natural gas vehicles 2017. > 1000x increase. China went from close to 0 EVs in 2000 to 4.5 million EVs 2020 [1]. 4.5Mx increase. Europe has the highest EV market share of new car sales, at 10% (China is at 5.7%). > What do they know that we don't? When it comes to EV adoption, developed countries like China and those of Western Europe are way ahead, so that question is still apt, just pointing in the opposite direction. Countries are looking for any cost-effective way to get off gasoline for vehicles to reduce local particulate emissions and petroleum dependency. Some are also want to reduce global CO2 emissions. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/07/todays-electric-vehicle-market-slow-growth-in-u-s-faster-in-china-europe/#:~:text=China%20has%2044%25%20of%20all,and%2017%25%20in%20the%20U.S https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/07/todays-elec....
- CyanLite2 5y agoCNG is good for very dense urban environments. But that's not quite the use case for most of America. Also China/Egypt can easily sign an edict requiring CNG infrastructure build-out. Meanwhile in America, we can't even agree if Coronavirus is a hoax or not, let alone pass a decent infrastructure bill.
- shmerl 5y agoToo bad for Toyota.
- timidiceball 5y agoIn Norway, sales of new gasoline and diesel cars ends in 2025. No exceptions for hybrids, plug-in or otherwise. Norway is a microscopic market but it still is astounding to me that Toyota will likely be shut out of the country in four years as they have almost nothing in the pipeline except an as-yet nameless crossover using some GM EV platform. Must be weird to be a dealer in Oslo now, considering the RAV-4 and Yaris hybrids still sell in ok numbers.
- aseerdbnarng 5y agoBad company who scared of the future and cant innovate, partners with bad people to halt the march of the progressive and virtuous. I believe this to be lazy clickbaity reporting Remove the pearl-clutching and all Toyota is doing is trying to get the government to extend government subsidies beyond BEVs using the very same system of lobbying major companies use. Their methods are the same as every other company and their aim seems perfectly sensible
- dartdartdart 5y agoToyota is greener than Tesla because it focuses on the impact a world society can make rather than on the individual level. Luxury EVs like Tesla are consuming too many limited battery resources. There were 300k EVs sold in North America, if these batteries went into hybrids, you could make 14 million hybrids, which would save 7900% more gasoline than the EVs [1]. Not to mention that Toyota is bringing to market 4 types of electrification: Hybrid, Plug in Hybrid, Battery Electric, and Hydrogen Full Cell. Don't get me wrong, Tesla has pushed consumers and automakers in the right direction, similar to what happened in the advent of the Prius. Also remember that the average car sits idle for 90%+ of the time, and when they are being used, they aren't being used for the full range of the vehicle, which is why a Plug in Hybrid is a great option for those whose commute is less than say 50 miles. It's slowly shifting to electric vehicles not because it's anti-EV, but because the world's battery supply can be used much more efficiently in reducing the amount of gasoline consumed (79 times at that). [1]: https://youtu.be/8Fub8AdysmI?t=264 https://youtu.be/8Fub8AdysmI?t=264
- gibolt 5y agoA Prius will not last as long as an EV. Their lifecycle emissions are worse than an EV, even on a coal powered grid (which can only improve and isn't even that prevalent). Batteries can go on to have second lives replacing peaker plants. Scaling batteries for EVs means improving production efficiencies, lowering costs, and reducing the most contentious metals. Moving to hybrids does not improve things as much as a direct jump to electric. Toyota specifically is not helping by fighting for reduced emissions regulations, lies about 'self-charging' hybrids, and producing large quantities of non-hybrid cars, trucks, SUVs, and crossovers.
- dartdartdart 5y agoI wish everyone can buy a Tesla model 3, but that's not the case right now, maybe with the 25k model coming, but certainly not right now. Toyota offers more hybrids than any other car manufacturer right now, and EV sales only account for 1.8% of the market in the US [1], so environmentally Toyota is right in their effort to reduce carbon emissions through hybridization in addition to their efforts in PHEV, EV, and Hydrogen vehicles. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/489525/us-electric-car-market-share-record-2020/#:~:text=According%20to%20data%20provided%20by,record%20market%20share%20of%201.8%25 https://insideevs.com/news/489525/us-electric-car-market-sha...!
- abakker 5y agoThe reality is that Toyota has an antique model of amortizing an engine design over too long. the CAFE regulations put them in a tough spot because the overall fleet has to reach a certain MPG. For a long time they made it work with the prius bring the average high so the 5.7L v8 in the Tundra, Land Cruiser, and sequoia, and the 4.6L in the 4Runner, Tacoma, and FJ Cruiser could continue to get very low specific power output / liter and very poor mileage. They reacted to the regulations by creating 1 very effective vehicle, and letting all the others suck.
- nvahalik 5y agoYou say "suck" but Toyota vehicles are some of the best and longest-lasting vehicles out there. The resale value stays high for new models and old models just keep running. I've only had one non-Toyota So, "suck" in terms of MPG, but in terms of long term value, they are great cars and trucks.
- abakker 5y agoyes - they are well engineered, and part of this is large engines with low specific output. If you design an engine that can easily make 500hp with a tune, but instead configure it to make 300, it will last a long time. Net of the emissions to manufacture a truck, I wonder if longer lasting drive train is actually better for the environment than marginally lower emissions? I suspect not, because I suspect that peers in the industry achieve lower emissions and similar lifespans with just a few more repairs. Source: I have owned many Toyotas: LX470, Tundra, camry, Rx440h. All of them were reliable. All of them were unimpressive from an engine POV. the 13mpg on my tundra makes me sad.
- nvahalik 5y ago> the 13mpg on my tundra makes me sad. Yeah. Me too. I can get to 17/18 on the highway if I drive it right, but it almost seems like I can literally watch the gauge go down as I travel a longer distance.
- jrsj 5y ago
- dqpb 5y agoHow embarrassing to work for a company that is trying to undermine progress because they are too incompetent to be part of the progress.
- mbgerring 5y agoThe good news here is that the auto industry is ripe for disruption. Lots of opportunity here as some incumbents dig in and refuse to change, and the market, infrastructure and consumer preferences move on without them.
- nickik 5y agoQuietly? They have been pushing hard and publically for years and years all over the world. Toyota has been the most anti-EV car company. They call their hybrids 'self-charging electric' vehicles.
- chuckSu 5y agoI’m hoping the one advantage I have living in a third world country is that I get to drive petrol and diesel cars for a good few more years then the rest of the world.
- cableshaft 5y agoI'm in the Midwest, and I went to Toyota and Honda and a few others looking for a PHEV SUV (Plug-in Hybrid) recently. At Toyota I mentioned being interested in the Rav4 Prime and got laughed at by the dealer. He proceeded to tell me that they're only likely to receive a grand total of 2 Rav4 Primes all year and that all of them are pretty much going exclusively to the coasts. He actually said he's known of a few people that have taken flights to California to buy a PHEV and drive it back to the Midwest. I actually couldn't find any PHEV SUVs at any dealerships we went to and I'm probably going to end up leasing just a Hybrid (not from Toyota though) for a few years and hoping EVs are more prevalent when the lease is up. I was really wanting to not put out any emissions while around town, too. Granted there's a Tesla dealership in the area and we could probably get one of those, but we do like to make long road trips sometimes that would be enough out of its range. I'd also be fine with a Sedan, but my wife is dead set on getting an SUV, so the PHEV SUV was supposed to be the compromise.
- jrsj 5y agoIf you only provide incentives as tax credits for buying new EVs, you’re really only getting a small % of a wealthier segment of the population to buy them. And in many cases there are problems; look at GMs current predicament with the Bolt. They have to advise people not to charge overnight and to park outside because their batteries might catch on fire. The EV market sub $40k is still very weak. They’re also impractical for anyone who doesn’t park somewhere they can charge. Now look at hybrids and PHEVs. They can be as much as $15k cheaper out the door, but they still cost a bit more than a traditional ICE vehicle. If your goal is to reduce the emissions of new vehicles as quickly as possible, you should use a more “all of the above” strategy. Incentivize small hybrid vehicles & make them cheaper than similar non-hybrid vehicles, and suddenly the majority of cars priced under $30k being sold would be hybrids and you would cut emissions significantly. Ultimately if you want the market to solve this problem, you need to get the financial incentives aligned. Right now they just aren’t, it’s just pumping up EVs that are still niche & ignoring other more effective short term solutions. FWIW I’d love to see some kind of subsidy for used hybrids & EVs too, many people can’t afford to buy new cars at all but they might consider at least switching to a hybrid if it’s economical.
- elihu 5y agoA subsidy on used sales is tricky, since then you'd just be subsidizing changes of ownership. Unless the seller pays back the subsidy when they sell, you'd have a situation where the optimal strategy is just to trade a car back and forth between two owners a hundred times. I suppose you could make the subsidy only be claimable once per tax-payer, but still the incentive would be to buy an EV and then sell it right away just to get the credit. There are probably workarounds to that too, but it's hard to craft the rules in a way that doesn't create perverse incentives. I think one good way to increase the number of EVs on the road would be to subsidize EV conversions. Converting a gas car to electric is generally expensive, labor intensive, and requires a lot of custom fabrication. If we had an EV conversion subsidy, it might encourage companies to start making low-cost well-engineered kits that are relatively straightforward for a mechanic to install.
- jhallenworld 5y agoI don't think Toyota cares about Tesla so much, but they have to care about VW- the largest car manufacturer. VW's push into EVs must have them terrified.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoThat's weird because Herbert Diess (CEO of VW) already said that they won't be able to overtake Tesla in EV but will fight for #2.
- jhallenworld 5y agoWell he's probably said a lot of things, I found this: “No, we haven’t considered (that), we are going our own way,” he replied. “We want to get close and then overtake.” “We think that we can – we need our own software stack, our own technology,” he added. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/16/volkswagen-ceo-says-he-wants-to-get-close-and-then-overtake-tesla.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/16/volkswagen-ceo-says-he-wants...
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y agoHere he admits they won't overtake Tesla in the US https://twitter.com/Herbert_Diess/status/1416303359078936576 https://twitter.com/Herbert_Diess/status/1416303359078936576 Let's see how it goes in Europe (Berlin gigafactory is coming online soo...) and in China (not looking good https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/reality-check-vw-china-after-sluggish-start-electric-car-series-2021-06-22/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/realit...)
- detaro 5y agoNr 2 long-term. Not Nr 2 behind Tesla necessarily.
- detaro 5y ago> “We think that we can – we need our own software stack, our own technology,” he added. They've slept on that for a bit too long IMHO, and now are claiming they are going to scale their software org by thousands of employees in a few years, while already having issues with software in their younger releases. I'll be positively surprised if they pull that off well.
- rangoon626 5y agoI hope Toyota succeeds with fuel cell technology. Everyone on this board seems to think that the next auto fuel source has to be one-size fits all, like with gas. It also seems that carbon activists can't talk enough about how tortuously slow it is moving away from gas cars, but won't embrace anything other than batteries to actually make that happen. You're just shooting yourself in the foot, which is why no one takes all of the whining seriously.
- webwielder2 5y agoSociety 5.0.
- slownews45 5y agoWhat's crazy is I absolutly thought Toyota would be the leaders here. The prius HAD a full electric drivetrain ALREADY. Regen etc etc. Neat dash display. They could have dropped the gas engine out and simplified things, increase battery size and they'd have been well on the way. Instead we have this hydrogen craziness. Billions here in CA have been spent on a "hydrogen superhighway". Meanwhile, for some reason the EV / Tesla charging network is getting built out naturally - I just did an EV plug at home for my relatives with electric cars -> no govt subsidy needed. If we get an EV (we want to) I will leave the house every day with a "full" tank. The conversion losses are a lot less with electric -> Hydrogen you start with electricity, make hydrogen, compress it, transport it, pump it, use to to make electricity again, run engine. Electricity you can also make locally (solar etc) and hopefully one day use as a battery backup to your house (100kW house battery would be great).
- blinkingled 5y agoI get what Toyota is doing here. Going full EV isn't a fully thought out or well planned approach. The lack of charging infrastructure for one. Most of the world and as Texas has shown even the US sometimes lacks reliable and clean electricity supply. With warming related increase in demand things will get even worse. Then there's the question of how world's electricity is generated and how that contributes to pollution. Besides, Toyota is doing the right thing with their suppliers in not saying screw you no more ICE - they're taking a more humane approach by doing a longer transition from ICE to hybrid to EV or hydrogen. There is a reason they can still find enough chips when almost all of their competitors are struggling - good supplier relations and investment. This also gives them time to work with say Panasonic to improve battery tech to their standards. In the meanwhile if their hybrids offer great mileage and prime offers 40 mile full EV range that's much greener already.
- jrsj 5y agoSubsidizing hybrids and PHEVs in addition to EVs absolutely makes sense and would make a bigger impact in short term emission reductions. Other companies aren’t lobbying for this because they sell very few hybrids (and often don’t even have a decent viable hybrid platform) & are betting big on EVs and want to recoup some of that investment as quickly as possible. And without a big tax credit attached to it, nobody wants to buy their EVs at the prices they can sell them at. A lot of manufacturers chose to improve their fleet fuel efficiency ratings by just making engines smaller and adding GDI, turbocharging, and more complex transmissions instead of investing more seriously in hybrid technology. So they don’t even make vehicles at an affordable price point that can get anywhere near the efficiency of what a hybrid can get. Toyota isn’t really the bad guy here and in terms of improving the fuel economy of their entire lineup they’ve done quite well.
- aejnsn 5y agoI see a lot of people shooting comments back and forth over which tech is better. Why does an argument before Congress need to justify the tech’s existence in a free market? If it works, it will sell.
- tim333 5y agoFor better or worse the government it trying to make people dive less polluting vehicles. Personally I'd rather we had CO2 pricing and then leave it to the market but it is what it is.
- TomMckenny 5y agoThey may lobby and campaign finance their way to some very inconvenient legislation but to consistently hurt EV they would need to turn it into a political shibboleth in the way the oil industry did with climate change. Naturally I hope this does not happen but it may not be much harder than gaining the sympathies of a few pundits with strong Nielsen ratings.
- PinguTS 5y agoWhen will we realize that electric vehicles and hydrogen-powered fuel cells are the same? We differentiate between ICE and EV. An EV then can have different types of energy storage like supercaps, batteries, and hydrogen-powered fuel cells. All of which can be charged from electrical energy and all of them can be discharged. Supercaps can be charged and discharged very fast, so that they are used for very shortterm storage. I know railway application who use them to charge while braking and then discharge for acceleration. It is the most efficient way. The modern batteries can also be charged and discharged fast. They are more suited for a longer term of storage. Then there fuel cells. That can also be charged and discharged. While charging is a very slow process, it is easier not to do it in the car itself, but outside. It is still a process of charging. That way, we in Germany do not distinguish between the kind of storage when we say we want to support EV, at least from the legislative view. I know, there are lots of people who does not understand this.
- jillesvangurp 5y agoWell, green hydrogen costs about 3-4x the kwh it takes to charge an EV battery for the same distance. At 3-4x the cost, it's just not worth doing it. Besides, the infrastructure is simply not there. If you run out of battery, there are gazillions of options for getting a charge. If you run out of hydrogen, you can probably count the number of fueling points within the maximum range of the vehicle on one hand. At that cost, hydrogen may never be worth the trouble. At least not for anything where battery is an option, which appears to be just about anything with wheels lately. The Tesla semi is about to hit production. 500 miles on a single battery for a heavy truck. Hard to argue spending 4x the energy on hydrogen for that. They are not the only truck manufacturer trying to target that market. At 4x the operational cost, the longer charging times are inconvenient but acceptable. And even those are coming down. Green hydrogen (as opposed to converting coal/methane into hydrogen) is a very small market as of yet. Long term it might prosper. But short term, the best applications are probably those where batteries are just not feasible. By short term, I mean the next 30 years or so. Heavy transport, shipping, aviation, industry, etc. Plenty of growth opportunities there before even trying to compete with normal EV road traffic; which is becoming routine and very cost effective right now.
- N1H1L 5y ago
- tim333 5y ago>Toyota was the largest corporate donor by far this year to Republicans in Congress who disputed the 2020 presidential election result. I'm saddened as a long time fan of Toyota that part of the company seems to be moving to the dark side as it were.
- solarkraft 5y agoAn interesting opposite is happening as well. Presumably due to their confidence regarding their electric vehicle palette the Volkswagen CEO appears to be shifting towards lobbying against ICE vehicles in Germany: https://twitter.com/herbert_diess/status/1418174370850222087 https://twitter.com/herbert_diess/status/1418174370850222087
- drewda 5y agoSide note: This Verge piece looks like a rewrite/gloss of recent New York Times reporting: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h...
- lsllc 5y agoI'm not really a fan of big government or over-arching government regulation -- in fact I consider myself a (little-l) libertarian of sorts. However: This is EXACTLY the role (and responsibility) of government. Capitalism cannot be left to drive this, the externalities here are far to great and critical to the future of this planet -- if we leave it to the car companies we'll still be driving cars with I/C engine in 100 years (assuming we haven't choked to death on the CO2). We need BIG incentives for ordinary people to be able to buy and use EVs, and for companies to develop EVs and produce them. As much as Tesla has pushed the curve, the 30% tax credit we had for a $120K car isn't going to help anyone but the wealthy. Although the Model 3 is much more affordable it's still out of reach for most median income families (esp. after paying $3-5K for a charger to be installed). Companies like Toyota are doing this because they dropped the ball on their own EV development and should be called out and admonished for hindering this.
- irrational 5y agoI remember being in the market for a minivan years ago and thinking that maybe I should wait a year or so until Toyota comes out with an electric Sienna. Ha ha ha ha!
- gunapologist99 5y agoMany people here seem to believe govts should ban non-EV's immediately, if not yesterday. Those people must clearly all be able to afford a vehicle that costs, at minimum, $30,000. Most people, in most countries, will struggle to afford to buy any vehicle, let alone electric vehicles that will: + literally cost several years worth of salary + have a limited lifespan (probably around 10 years) + short and decreasing range (usually 200 miles when new) + take an hour or hours to recharge + whose battery packs alone can cost half of the purchase price (that is, another year or two of salary) to replace. Meanwhile, a well-cared for ICE car from the 50's will continue to run for many decades (just ask Cuba.)
- beders 5y agoI just shopped around for an EV and Toyota had no compelling offer at all. Nothing, zilch, nada. And for the first time - after having a 1984 Ford Escort as my first ride - I decided to go with a Ford. They have the first real competitor to Tesla with the Mach-E. With the Lightning coming out soon, the next generation of EVs with high speed charging arriving in Fall, there's a clear signal that EVs are the future. And if you've ever done a test drive in a Tesla or Mach-E, you will hopefully disagree. These cars are not only practical, but plain fun!
- garyrichardson 5y agoI had a conspiracy theory level explanation for why Toyota is dragging their feet on EVs -- they need to have the inherit unreliability of ICE cars in order to make selling highly reliable Toyotas viable. Stay with me on this one. Toyota vehicles are already highly reliable. If you take Toyota level quality and apply it to already simplified EV cars the average lifespan of their cars would go from 15 years to 30 years (guestimates) since there's 1/100th of the moving parts (or less?) in an EV. You'd sell fewer cars and your parts division would sell fewer replacement parts. You can't be profitable on wiper fluid and tires. Toyota execs saw the end of their business if they ever adopted EVs so they need to ensure future vehicles were powered by explosions -- you still gotta have an entire ICE powertrain in a hybrid. They knew hydrogen was a dead end, but by the time everyone else figured it out it would be 30 years later.
- r00fus 5y agoThis is the real game. Toyota see EVs as the demise of their business model. It may well come to pass since they're so late to the game and too big to shift.
- lastyearman 5y agoI have the same theory. Only competive advantage Toyota has right now is thin margins through massive scale (and thus relatively cheap prices) and reliability. First point is not yet possible with EVs and reliability may not be as big of an issue anymore with EVs. More complicated the drivetrain the better for Toyota since not many can make it reliably at scale. EVs seem to be fairly easy to make given how many startups are popping up.
- user3939382 5y agoMy unqualified opinion is you’re trading one set of problems for another. With combustion you have a lot of parts under stress for a long time. With EV you’re dealing with battery science and seemingly intractable supply chain problems.
- krosaen 5y agoIf you want to steel-man Toyota's perspective, TRI's CEO Gill Pratt: https://gillpratt.medium.com/?p=b38bfbc1f16 https://gillpratt.medium.com/?p=b38bfbc1f16 > Maximizing the benefit of every battery cell produced requires that we distribute them smartly. > This means putting them into a greater number of “right sized” electrified vehicles, including HEVs and PHEVs, instead of placing them all into a fewer number of long-range BEVs, like my model X. This is particularly important because presently it is difficult to recycle the kinds of batteries used in BEVs. If we are to achieve carbon neutrality, we must pay attention to all parts of the “3R” process — Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle. > For example, we hardly ever put gas into our RAV4 Prime PHEV, which has a battery ⅙ as large as our Model X BEV. For the same investment in batteries as our single Model X, five other RAV4 Prime customers could reduce their carbon footprint too.
- etempleton 5y agoThe Japanese automakers in particular seem to have been caught flat footed by the shift to EVs. Strange considering they were/are the leaders in hybrid technology. Honda is partnering with GM to build their cars on their EV platform until they can come up with something on their own, and I am not sure what Toyota’s long-term plans are. And this makes me think they are not sure or are so woefully behind that they have to try and delay change as much has possible.
- yalogin 5y agoMakes even more sense why they are funding insurrectionist politicians.
- r00fus 5y agoSeems part and parcel of the deal - Toyota supports GOP, and GOP lobbies to remove EVs. Sounds like a win/win for both of them.
- robertwt7 5y agoExactly a week ago I asked my friend, "Why is toyota not pushing the production of electric cars? Hyundai, Mercedes and Audi have launched theirs and they have been trying to catch up with Tesla". Then this happened
- surfingdino 5y agoI sold my car this year and decided to use public transport until the car industry sorts itself out. The EVs may be zero emission vehicles, but the environmental cost of making them does not entice me to buy one. Also, it is currently an option for a homeowner who has a driveway/garage as the EU and the UK networks aren't developed well enough to make long-distance travel as easy petrol/diesel cars. Europe is building a lot of high-rise apartment blocks with little or not parking spaces which makes car ownership either very expensive or impossible. If you want an example of it, visit new estates near the London City Airport or its vicinity. They are built for the future without privately-owned cars. If the car industry wants to survive, maybe they should be investing in premium car parks with EV charging facilities or houses/apartment blocks with similar facilities. Porsche did something like this in the Miami Porsche Design Tower. Like it or not, car ownership will dwindle and resemble airline industry with cheap options for the masses (Uber) and luxury options for the wealthy who can afford not only the vehicles but also the more expensive residences and charging facilities.
- oort-cloud9 5y agoGood. Nobody I know plans to buy EV any time in the foreseeable future. Waste of money.
- supermatt 5y ago> The executive, Chris Reynolds, has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix. Why aren't fuel cell vehicles already in the mix? Are EVs only classed as such if they use a lithium battery?
- nazrulmum10 5y agoI think they have a point about hybrids, but only to a point. I think you could make a solid argument for possibly allowing plug-in hybrids with a solid battery-only range (I would say at least 60 miles, a range which almost no current plug-in hybrids reach) for a few years before you get to the point of only allowing electric cars to be sold new to consumers. so maybe from 2035 to 2042 (something like that), only EV’s and 60+ miles plugin hybrids can be sold new to consumers (the requirement for commercial customers would start at around 2042 or thereabouts). After that, only new cars sold would be EV’s. That would be my preferred timeframe.
- stolsvik 5y agoToyota ruined the whole idea of "hybrid" with their early parallel hybrid (Prius) that could not charge the batteries using wall power, only charge by the ICE. In the beginning I thought it was just a first step, but they never went further, even when Tesla came along. I find this waste of early success extremely disappointing and sad.
- celerrimus 5y agoI would agree with Toyota. Excluding hybrids from the mix is simply wrong, as global electric mix (64% fossil fuels, mostly coal) poor performance in harsh conditions, charging time and infrastructure, are still so unmature. Hybrids with smaller batteries are great middle step and solution for now, as you can have best of the two worlds. And in the most countries, they could be better in terms of environment compared to pure EVs.