41 ms·

Introducing the next generation of Mac

• AnonHP 6y ago
  Apple mentioned in the event that these Macs will have hardware verified secure boot. Since I’m not very knowledgeable in this area, can someone explain (or even try to guess) what this would/could mean for running Linux on these? I use Macs way beyond Apple’s support timeframe with OS X/macOS, and Linux is the one that runs on some of the older Macs and provides adequate security and security related software updates.
  • OJFord 6y ago
    I don't know the answer^, but how old is your current old Mac hardware? I don't know about the desktops, but Macbooks from 2016 are not well supported hardware-wise in Linux - things like no WiFi even. There was a good GitHub repo tracking it for up to I think the first touchbar Pro, and basically it was dismal then and only got worse (according to repo owner who consequently stopped bothering iirc). So.. depending what you want to do on these older machines, my point is that this may be the least of your worries. ^(though I think it's fine, because it's the reverse that would be a problem? Bad news for 'hackintosh' if all supported versions of macOS can expect secure boot hardware, I think)
    • spear 6y ago
      Yeah, I think you mean this repo: https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux I bought a 2017 MBP hoping the situation would eventually improve but it never did, so I never got around to installing Linux. I'm expecting it'll be even worse for these M1 systems.
      • OJFord 6y ago
        That's the one, thanks. It is a shame, it's not something I ever really did (or not for long, for a period I do recall having Arch on my 2013 Air) but I like the idea - I like Apple's hardware, just not the software.
    • heavyset_go 6y ago
      > I don't know about the desktops, but Macbooks from 2016 are not well supported hardware-wise in Linux Which is unfortunate, because the 2015 models make great Linux machines. The introduction of the T2 chip made proper Linux support much harder to achieve.
      • spijdar 6y ago
        Until 2019 Apple sold 13 inch MBPs without the touchbar, and these models did not have a T2 chip. They are still miserable computers to run Linux on, although I think the original 2016 touchbar-less MBP performs better than all the rest, albeit (IIRC) no working audio, very poor suspend/resume functionality, and until pretty recently no keyboard/trackpad functionality. Oh, and Apple's NVMe interface is non-compliant. This is widely reported as Apple locking Linux out with the T2 chip, but that's not really true. The T2 chip will by default prevent unsigned kernels from reading/writing to the SSD, but this can be disabled. Even if it's disabled, the controller is not standards compliant, and Linux won't see the underlying block device. I saw some diffs floating around on github a few years ago that fixed it, but I don't think it was ever mainlined. Basically, post-2016, Apple seems to have incorporated even more custom (and undocumented) hardware that running alternative OSes on them is basically impossible. Windows works because of the Apple-provided HAL + drivers for WinNT.
        • fpoling 6y ago
          Even in Bootcamp Apple did not bother to expose all hardware to Windows . The touchpad is reported as a mouse with a scroll wheel, no option to enable hardware encryption or to use Touch ID to unlock.
          • wil421 6y ago
            Why would you expect Touch ID to work on a windows machine? As far as I know it’s only available on Apple OSes.
            • fpoling 6y ago
    • Matthias1 6y ago
      I have a MacBookPro15,2 (2019, with T2), on which I duel boot Arch Linux. It is perfectly usable. The hardware support is not great. In particular, resuming from suspend is very slow, and I haven't gotten the built-in mic to work. And getting the system to work did require using a patched Linux kernel installed from Github. So not easy, but possible. Your claims about "dismal then and only got worse" are unfounded. The repository you refer to is still active. https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux If anything, activity has slowed down in these threads because it was figured out how to make it work. Even among people who run Linux on these MacBooks, the general recommendation is to keep a macOS partition around for stability. Some of the value you get from any Apple computer is in the software. If you intend on instantly installing Linux or Windows as your only OS, this probably isn't the computer for you. But if you want to or have to use Linux sometimes, these T2-chip Macs can do it.
      • OJFord 6y ago
        I was referring to the hardware support, not the (stellar) efforts of Dunedan and contributors!
      • michaelmrose 6y ago
        Am I wrong to think the T2 means Linux can't access the built in hard drive and you are dual booting from an external drive?
        • Matthias1 6y ago
          Yes. There’s nothing preventing me from accessing the internal SSD.
    • Dunedan 6y ago
      > There was a good GitHub repo tracking it for up to I think the first touchbar Pro, and basically it was dismal then and only got worse (according to repo owner who consequently stopped bothering iirc). As I'm said repo owner, let me chime in here quickly to shed some light on that. I used a 13" MacBook Pro 2016 for 3 years with Debian as my sole machine for work. When ordering it back in 2016 I wasn't sure how difficult it'd be to get Linux properly working on it, as at that point it was only known that it's possible to boot Linux, but nobody had figured out even such basics like support for the integrated input devices or the NVMe SSD yet. However as I was using Linux on Macs since 2006 I figured it'd be somehow possible to get it to work for me. Fortunately I wasn't the only one serious about running Linux these 2016+ MacBooks, as I have very limited knowledge of the required lowlevel programming skills. What I did was to provide and moderate a Github repository (https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux) as a central place to document and discuss of the status of hardware support for these MacBook Pros, some little patches and lots of feedback and bug reports. A big shoutout to all contributors who did an incredible job at reverse engineering, implementing and upstreaming drivers for various components! That's quite an achievement for such a complex device with no public hardware documentation at all! After a while it turned out that support for certain components would be rather difficult to get working flawlessly. As an example, even at the end of the 3 years I used the MacBook Pro, I had to use an external adapter to be able to use WiFi. With that in mind I started to reconsider why I bought Apple products: I bought them because of their superior hardware quality. But if I'm not able to use the hardware as intended, what's the point of paying a premium for Apple products? And let's just not talk about the butterfly keyboard or the horrible thermal management. So when it came to replacing my MacBook Pro, I decided to go with a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon instead. It's not perfect, but I'm way happier now than I ever was with the MacBook Pro 2016, as the hardware just works. As I don't own any 2016+ Apple device anymore, the help for further Linux support I can provide is limited, but I didn't stop bothering at all! I'm still actively managing said Github repository, but activity in general has significantly dropped there over time. Either the devices work well enough for other people now or they also replaced them with non-Apple hardware.
  • stjo 6y ago
    IIRC at WWC Apple said it would still be possible to boot unsigned OS, but it would show some kind of warning.
    • sneak 6y ago
      This is the best news I’ve heard all day, thank you! I’m totally fine with a chromebook-style unsigned boot warning.
      • Asmod4n 6y ago
        During WWDC they said you can't use any other operating System at boot time, only through virtual Machines. Update: here a podcast with Craig Federighi on that matter https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU
        • shaicoleman 6y ago
          Link with timestamp: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3772 https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3772 "we're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's purely virtualization"
        • saagarjha 6y ago
          You can, they are just saying Bootcamp isn’t a thing.
      • pkulak 6y ago
        Why not just support a company that doesn't do this crap?
        • katbyte 6y ago
          Because most people don’t care?
        • sneak 6y ago
          I would happily. Who else is making 8 core, 18 hour battery life laptops that have >200ppi displays and weigh <=1290g? The choice is now performance xor privacy.
  • wmf 6y ago
    Even if you could turn off secure boot, Linux doesn't have drivers for Apple Silicon. Maybe in 2030 someone will port Linux to a jailbroken M1 Mac.
    • jkaplowitz 6y ago
      Linux does support many ARM architectures already, and even supports the x86/x64 version of Secure Boot in some configurations. If Apple wants to either allow their Secure Boot to be disabled or to allow end users or Linux distros to somehow get their own keys trusted, I'm sure the port can happen in the coming $smallnum years with enough interest + resources + time. (But not $smallnum months, sadly.) None of this, of course, is to pretend it's easy.
  • Asmod4n 6y ago
    No Bootcamp for Apple Silicon Macs, you can't install any other Operating System on it. But you can run arm linux in a virtual machine.
    • grishka 6y ago
      So, a locked bootloader with someone else's public key as the only one trusted? Can you even call that a computer?
      • heavyset_go 6y ago
        This exact issue is something Stallman[1] and others have talked about for a while now[2]. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html [2] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
        • stjohnswarts 6y ago
          I use a mac for work (and paid for by work) but refuse to spend my money on something I can't use the way I would like to use it. I think that these companies shouldn't be able to lock you out of you using your tractor/car/computer like everyone seems to be moving towards. It's a real shame. I understand if they want to void the warranty because a user blew away some critical firmware, but that's another ball of wax and it's on the user to suffer the consequences.
          • kjsthree 6y ago
            Agree wholeheartedly! Void my warranty, boot with a scary splash screen, whatever, but don’t lock me out of the thing I ostensibly own. Or, maybe change the “buy” button to a “license to use” button in your store.
      • rconti 6y ago
        Betteridge's Law of Comments
  • brian_herman__ 6y ago
    Probably something similar to their secure boot with their phone iBoot. https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/IBoot_(Bootloader) https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/IBoot_(Bootloader)
  • amelius 6y ago
    Take action: buy a Mac, and return it. If they want to know why, tell them¹. Repeat for every new model. ¹ They will have to give you a full refund: it's your right as a consumer. Note that this may not work for companies.
    • lovelyviking 6y ago
      Who downvoted your comment and why ? This is a good comment and good strategy to teach them a lesson. Without some efforts those companies would not recall moral values. Richard Stallman was warning us about this development long ago and he was right. Cripled hardware is useless for hacking mind.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        Because it’s just creating e-waste, and if you do it enough they’ll stop selling you things.
        • qiqitori 6y ago
          Hey, wait a second. You seem to be implying that they'll just (irresponsibly) throw out machines returned for "other" reasons, but is that true?
          • saagarjha 6y ago
            I think the best case is they become refurbished, which means the motherboard is kept and the outside gets scrapped?
        • RonanTheGrey 6y ago
          "How do we get these companies to stop behaving like this?" "Vote with your wallet!" <votes with wallet by doing as OP suggests above. Mind you, NOT buying is noise - buying and returning is signal> "Not like that!!"
  • vbezhenar 6y ago
    It means that you need to find a vulnerability in bootloader and exploit it to break free from Apple secure garden. Linux works on ARM for years, so I'm sure that it won't be impossible to port it over, but whether enthusiasts will do it or not is another question, as you would need to write drivers for proprietary GPU and storage to make it useful.
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      You can turn off secure boot.
      • vbezhenar 6y ago
        I don't think so.
        • saagarjha 6y ago
          You can, there’s a bputil command for it I believe.
          • vbezhenar 6y ago
            Here's WWDC talk claiming that you can't: https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3772 https://youtu.be/Hg9F1Qjv3iU?t=3772 I'm talking about ARM macs, not Intel ones.
            • saagarjha 6y ago
              That’s not really what I’d call a “WWDC talk”, but sure, it mentions that Apple won’t provide Boot Camp, and that they are running their OS demos using virtualization. I didn’t see a claim that they won’t let you reduce the boot security.
              • vbezhenar 6y ago
                "We're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's purely virtualization. Hypervisors can be very efficient, so the need to direct boot shouldn't really be a concern." For me that quote means that they're not allowing booting any alternate operating system and they expect developers to use virtualization if other operating system is needed. I would be happy to be wrong about that.
  • submeta 6y ago
    Oh Apple, why are you doing this, taking freedom from your customers. I don‘t want to use Windows, neither do I want to tinker with Ubuntu. But if you keep going that path, you are forcing your power users to think about migrating to platforms that respect users freedom to do whatever they want to do with their machines. After two years of using an otherwise beautiful iPad Pro (along with my MBP) I came to realize that a crippled machine that is very limited in how I use a computer is not the future of computing I like. The device collects dust for quite some time as I prefer a computing environment where I use the terminal a lot, where I use my bash and Python scripts a lot to automate, where I use Emacs a lot to write tech docs, do my project planning, writing, automating workflows, and many more things that are not doable on a crippled (iPad)OS. You keep going toward your vision of a computing platform where your customers are just consumers, not hackers and doers, and us hackers need to look for alternative platforms, most propably Linux.
    • boogies 6y ago
      > neither do I want to tinker with Ubuntu You can get XPS Developer Edition, System76, Purism, or many other laptop brands (eg. any of these https://elementary.io/store/ https://elementary.io/store/ with elementaryOS, whose DE should feel fairly familiar to a macOS user) with GNU preinstalled these days.
      • WhyNotHugo 6y ago
        Although very slowly, this list of companies providing good Linux-ready laptops is growing. I do wish someone would dare ship something high-end non-amd64 (e.g.: ARM). Kinda like what we're seeing from Apple.
        • wmf 6y ago
          First a high-end ARM chip would have to exist. The 8cx is pretty meh compared to the M1.
          • sudosysgen 6y ago
  • hankchinaski 6y ago
    i personally prefer secure hardware at the expense of not being able to play around with other OSes - i am sure i am not alone
    • bosswipe 6y ago
      What advantage do you see to "secure hardware", I'm unaware of any recent Mac security issue that would have been prevented by it. It gives Apple a lot more control over the device but I don't see any advantage to the user.
      • crummy 6y ago
        One advantage I could see would be lowering value for thieves, if it worked out like locked phones that cannot just be wiped and resold.
    • WhyNotHugo 6y ago
      I also prefer secure hardware, but I find macOS completely useless for work. While I can appreciate that some see other-OSs as something of a curiosity, for many of us it's a big deal-breaker, and it's a shame Apple is not willing to provide their hardware to so many potential clients who simply don't want their software.
    • derbOac 6y ago
      You can have both. Users should control the keys. Not an insurmountable problem.
  • WhyNotHugo 6y ago
    The reality is that we can't answer this until we have some hands on. It really depends on whether their secure boot architecture can be disabled (unlikely knowing apple), or allow adding ones own keys (unlikely). Bootcamp probably won't happen since windows does not support the architecture: they'll be pushing people to use VMs. They might also provide some untrusted path to boot without it being able to access certain secure features. I wish they did this, but also won't keep my breath! That said, the kernel itself needs to have support for the hardware architecture, and then drivers for all the new hardware they're pushing out. I don't expect this to be soon, though I'd definitely be willing to sponsor anyone willing to work on this.
    • kllrnohj 6y ago
      > Bootcamp probably won't happen since windows does not support the architecture Windows supports ARM and has for a while. But still probably Bootcamp's days are over, yeah.
  • fomine3 6y ago
    It seems that Mac has now iPhone-based boot system. https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOSBeta/comments/jn7wbf/heres_the_apple_silicon_mac_startup_process_based/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOSBeta/comments/jn7wbf/heres_the...
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      The difference is that you can turn off checks on the Mac.
• midrus 6y ago
  I'm already ordering a Thinkpad.
• jonplackett 6y ago
  Mac Mini? sigh edit: No wait... here comes the pro!
• sccxy 6y ago
  That PC ending was cringe. Silly Apple.
• tosh 6y ago
  I was hoping for a re-introduction of the 12" Macbook, I guess we'll have to wait a little bit longer
• SamuelAdams 6y ago
  Super interesting how they kept the touchbar on the Macbook Pro keyboard but not on the Air. As a software developer, I'm going to be more likely to buy an Air just due to the keyboard.
  • api 6y ago
    Has anyone ever seen anyone use the Touch Bar? Like really use it?
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • dotancohen 6y ago
      I think that the Photoshop crowd likes it.
      • egypturnash 6y ago
        Depends on how you use it, if you use a lot of actions (basically macros) via keyboard shortcuts then you probably hate the touchbar, because they can only be bound to f-keys.
    • stblack 6y ago
      My fondest wish is a high-end MBP 16" with no touch bar. The touch bar's sole role is to generate errors and missteps resulting from merely grazing over it. Even setting the touch bar to vanilla F-keys, grazing triggers F-key actions which is so frustrating.
      • andy_ppp 6y ago
        Yes - I always assumed the eventual goal was a touch bar with the same haptic feedback as the trackpad (and no the trackpad doesn't move).
        • hackstack 6y ago
• JKCalhoun 6y ago
  I missed something — will older apps still work or must all your apps be new versions, recompiled for M1?
  • PopePompus 6y ago
    Older apps will run via Rosetta 2
  • htk 6y ago
    Rosetta 2 is the translation layer to keep older versions running on the new chip.
  • mynegation 6y ago
    They mentioned Rosetta 2 - emulation layer for Intel-only apps.
    • cromka 6y ago
      It's a translation, to be precise, not emulation.
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        It's both.
        • cromka 6y ago
          No, no it's not. Rosetta Stone 2 does not virtualize and virtualization from x86 to Silicon (arm) will not be supported by Apple themselves.
          • saagarjha 6y ago
            It's called "Rosetta 2", and I have no idea why you're bringing up virtualization when I was talking about translation and emulation.
  • 6y ago
• struct 6y ago
  It's interesting that all the chips are branded as the M1 - I wonder if there are any clock, memory or cache differences between the devices?
  • ryanferg 6y ago
    I'd imagine thermal throttling will be responsible for actual performance differences across devices (but this is just a guess)
  • andy_ppp 6y ago
    Yes I'm waiting for the shop to open to find out if they can be configured - I bet not. EDIT: the store does not let you configure anything but the RAM which is absurdly expensive.
  • nicoburns 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure they're all identical chips. No doubt there are clocking differences. But that may be automatic based on thermals and not actually represent a difference in the actual chip.
    • rehangs_plot 6y ago
      The base model m1 air has a 7 core gpu compared with 8 core in the others.
      • aaomidi 6y ago
        It probably has 8 cores, just that one failed and they disabled it. Making CPUs is expensive and a faulty process. A lot of CPU given any release is the same high end CPU with faulty cores disabled.
  • mensetmanusman 6y ago
    For the Apple TV, they can overclock since it’s plugged into the wall. They may do something similar here.
• wirthjason 6y ago
  Only up to 16gb of memory on the M1 MacBook Pro?!?! The intel one is configurable to 32gb. Choosing between memory and CPU. So torn, so disappointed. P.S. I’m a developer, like many here. (Edit: specify the M1, not the existing Intel.)
  • cromka 6y ago
    The Intel one takes up to 64 GB – at least that's how much mine has.
    • wirthjason 6y ago
      16 inch? I believe the 13” Intel is limited to 32gb max.
  • ibraheemdev 6y ago
    And it's no longer user accessible. No more saving money by buying 8gb and upgrading manually, even on the Mac Mini
    • Xylakant 6y ago
      RAM on MacBooks hasn’t been upgradable for quite some time. I’d say at least 2 or 3 generations.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  • CharlesW 6y ago
    > Only up to 16gb of memory on the MacBook Pro?!?! It supports up to 64GB of 2666MHz DDR4 memory. (Source: Went through the "Buy" process to see the options.)
    • klelatti 6y ago
      That's an Intel not an M1 powered version.
• kzrdude 6y ago
  Is this the first time they call their laptops "notebooks"?
  • Austin_Conlon 6y ago
    The term was used frequently in the Jobs keynotes.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Apple has called them notebooks for many years, I believe this is how they referred to them on the box too.
  • andybak 6y ago
    This is a bugbear of mine. I've never met a real human being who uses that term. I don't even know if people would understand me if I started using it in normal conversation. They are laptops outside of industry marketing material. Why can't they just admit they lost this rebranding battle?
  • frank2 6y ago
    I read somewhere about 15 years ago that the term was introduced when laptops would get so hot that the legal departments at laptop vendors started to worry about their liability if they kept calling them laptops and they got sued by someone whose lap got burned. Now that Apple's laptops run much cooler, my guess is that they continue to say "notebook" because Apple owns an important trademark that ends in "Book".
  • flomo 6y ago
    In addition, the original brandname was PowerBook.
• EduardoBautista 6y ago
  Up to 20 hours of battery life on the MacBook Pro. If anything, I believe the increased battery life will be what most people will notice.
  • miohtama 6y ago
    They also say "compiles 4x code" on the video.
    • xattt 6y ago
      It is interesting to abstract battery life as a limit of how many values can be calculated.
      • mensetmanusman 6y ago
        total flops before failure assuming you lose half your battery life from display regardless.
  • kkylin 6y ago
    For me, battery life has been the biggest disappointment with the 2018 MBP. It used to be that if one paid more for a MBP, one got more of everything. With the last couple gens of Intel MacBooks, one had to choose: speed? battery life? Now their lineup (and pricing) makes sense again.
• lprd 6y ago
  Very interested to see some actual benchmarks...
• skohan 6y ago
  I'm interested to see the benchmarks vs. comparable AMD systems. Some of the claims, like 2x performance increase on the MBP are impressive, but intel laptops have been absolutely trounced by AMD 4000-series laptops of late. Also will be interested to see the benchmarks of the integrated GPU vs. discreet GPU performance.
  • kllrnohj 6y ago
    > Also will be interested to see the benchmarks of the integrated GPU vs. discreet GPU performance. If they're "only" claiming 2x over anyone else' integrated, then it's not going to be all that interesting to compare integrated vs. discreet. By comparison here the 2060 Max Q is around 4x faster than the Vega 8 in the 4800U. Although that 2x faster than anyone else's integrated also has some really big question marks on the claim. The fine-print on that claim includes: "Integrated GPU is defined as a GPU located on a monolithic silicon die along with a CPU and memory controller, behind a unified memory subsystem" Which sounds a bit weasel-y like it's trying to specifically exclude what's commonly thought of as integrated graphics like the two-die approach in Tigerlake. Which how the product is packaged shouldn't really matter?
    • skohan 6y ago
      The claim was 2x CPU performance over the previous 13" MBP, and 5-6x GPU performance over the previous integrated graphics.
      • kllrnohj 6y ago
        https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/ https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/ There's no claim of any 5-6x faster than previous there. It says "fastest integrated" (and in the fine print that integrated is specifically unified monolithic die, eliminating chiplet-style products), and then also "M1 delivers significantly higher graphics performance than the very latest PC laptop chip — for up to 2x the graphics speed." So take the 4800U, which has among the fastest commercially available integrated graphics in a monolithic die, and double the GPU performance. If you needed a discreet GPU in your laptop previously this probably won't change that.
• DCKing 6y ago
  This M1 chip is really interesting, but they seem to be hard limited in RAM to 16GB. That will surely limit the interest there is in the initial batch amongst the HN crowd. It makes sense maybe for the MacBook Air, but not that much for the Mac Mini or MacBook Pro 13".
• redm 6y ago
  What I can't find is how many external monitors can be supported on the M1 chip? I don't see any detailed specs. Al they say about the M1 specs are: "The Apple M1 chip is the first system on a chip (SoC) for Mac. Packed with an astonishing 16 billion transistors, it integrates the CPU, GPU, I/O, and every other significant component and controller onto a single tiny chip. Designed by Apple, M1 brings incredible performance, custom technologies, and unparalleled power efficiency to the Mac. With an 8‑core CPU and 8‑core GPU, M1 on MacBook Pro delivers up to 2.8x faster CPU performance¹ and up to 5x faster graphics² than the previous generation."
  • davio 6y ago
    From MacBook Pro tech specs: Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors and: One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz Thunderbolt 3 digital video output Native DisplayPort output over USB-C VGA, HDMI, DVI, and Thunderbolt 2 output supported using adapters (sold separately)
    • capableweb 6y ago
      Strange, they list the resolution you can use if you use one external display. What about two monitors? I don't believe you could only have one display connected, that would be ridiculous, but I also don't understand why they only write about one display and not about many?
      • amiga-workbench 6y ago
        Possibly because OSX still doesn't support DisplayPort multi-stream and you can't plug multiple monitors into one USB-C port.
        • capableweb 6y ago
          Thanks, didn't realize the laptop only had one port on it.
        • 6y ago
• davio 6y ago
  It's so weird that the cheaper Air is down a single GPU core - 7 instead of 8
  • flyinglizard 6y ago
    Maybe that's a fab yields play (binning, disabling cores with issues and sending them down to Air)
  • kbar13 6y ago
    binning i guess?
  • coolspot 6y ago
    Maybe binning. Good chips go into Pro, chips with defects in one of the GPU cores go to Air.
    • davio 6y ago
      Sure, but it's kind of a cheap limitation. 6/6 CPU/GPU would make more sense in terms of positioning the different models. Up to .14x faster graphics performance for $250
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        Apple doesn't typically expose this kind of thing as an option during sale.
      • foldr 6y ago
        The Air is fanless so may not have the thermal head room to make good use of 8 GPU cores anyway.
• tobr 6y ago
  Surprised that they didn’t take the opportunity to update the industrial design, especially of the MacBook Air which retains its wedge-shaped heft.
  • interestica 6y ago
    They returned to the design elements introduced for the iPhone 4 in the iPhone 12. That general form would be pretty interesting for an ultra portable laptop.
  • egypturnash 6y ago
    How would you improve on the Air? It's such a beautiful, sleek little thing. I've currently got a 13" Pro and it just feels so damn clunky next to the succession of Airs it replaced.
    • WillPostForFood 6y ago
      Weight? It is almost a pound heavier than the discontinued Macbook 12".
  • steffan 6y ago
    From a marketing standpoint it doesn't make sense to update the design (this is typical Apple from what I've observed) - People will buy into the novelty of the new CPUs. For the refresh, you will probably see some design changes.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• dcchambers 6y ago
  The 16GB RAM limit is unfortunate. Five years later and I still can't buy a new 13" laptop from Apple with more RAM than my 2015 MBP. Edit: Apparently you can configure a (Early 2020) Intel-based 13" MBP with 32GB of RAM - I was not aware of that. Hope they bring that option to the ARM versions ASAP, especially if the performance gains are as good as Apple claims.
  • viscanti 6y ago
    Do most people with MacBook Airs have workloads that require more than 16GB or ram or do they generally value a lower price point? Cost, performance, light weight - pick two right? Apple seems to have picked a combination of lower cost and light weight. Customers who need more ram probably move up to a MBP.
    • wtetzner 6y ago
      The 13" MBP has the same limitation.
      • viscanti 6y ago
        For the lowest end models right? It's the same tradeoff to bring down prices for people buying the lowest end machines. Presumably they understand that people who need the higher end spec'd machines will wait to buy a new laptop until more software has been migrated to run natively. If you need a 13" MBP that supports more than 16gb of ram, they sell it. It seems unlikely they'll stick with a 16gb limit once they start replacing the higher end devices.
        • wtetzner 6y ago
          > For the lowest end models right? For the current M1 models. You can still get 32GB of RAM on the Intel models. So they're "low end" only in the sense that you can't get more than 16GB of RAM on them.
    • dbbk 6y ago
      The MacBook Pro is also limited to 16GB.
• ibraheemdev 6y ago
  Apple has been getting trashed lately by developers for how hot and loud their macbooks get. You can tell how much focus they put on cooling in this presentation. The macbook air literally doesn't even have a fan!
  • Ayesh 6y ago
    It's not clear if they use the exact same M1 chip in Airs, but I'm pretty sure they run under a very low TDP. iPad A14 runs on 6W TDP.
    • nicoburns 6y ago
      In the chip part of the presentation they mentioned the Air TDP as being 10W.
  • dasKrokodil 6y ago
    Wasn't the latest Intel-based MacBook Air fanless as well?
    • waterhouse 6y ago
      No; I have one. (Perhaps you're thinking of the 12-inch Macbook, which was fanless, and which they stopped manufacturing a year ago.) And I go to extremes to keep the fan from spinning up: using Turbo Boost Switcher, and/or running a program that repeatedly does the equivalent of "kill -STOP" and "kill -CONT" to a process, hundreds of times per second, to force it to use less CPU.
      • dasKrokodil 6y ago
        Ah OK, thanks for the clarification. Yes, the MacBook was the fanless one. I wonder why they stopped making it?
        • waterhouse 6y ago
          Perhaps because they knew they were going to release a fanless 13-inch Macbook Air.
• regulation_d 6y ago
  Did I miss something, or are they, once again, not upgrading the camera? The low light performance of the current version is real bad. Since we're all using these cameras way more, I really thought there would a hardware bump. You can only squeeze so much detail out of an under-exposed, noisy image with software.
  • crazygringo 6y ago
    I'm curious, are higher-quality cameras even available that fit into the thin lid? (At a reasonable price?) I was always under the impression that the built-in camera is so much worse than your phone's front-facing camera simply because the phone is thick and has room, while the MacBook lid is much thinner.
    • afandian 6y ago
      That's a kind-of-backwards argument though isn't it? The lid needs to be thick enough to contain the necessary components, not the other way round.
      • dijit 6y ago
        But if the entire lid was as thick as a phone because of a camera then it would be enormous for no realistic reason. The rest of the screen display is thinner than the camera module already.
      • crazygringo 6y ago
        Obviously Apple sees thinness as a major feature. The reality is, for most people 720p is more than enough, since most videoconferencing is at a heavily compressed 480p anyways, and it's not like most people really want it super obvious that they missed a spot shaving or have a small zit anyways. And sure the quality arguably falls to below 480p in very low light conditions, but that's not an issue in any normal well-lit office, coffee shop, or kitchen or living room. I would assume Apple is making the right call here that a higher-resolution camera isn't worth additional thickness.
• KMnO4 6y ago
  Surprisingly, the dealbreaker for me on this current generation is 2x TB3 ports on one side. I really like being able to charge from either side.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    (This isn't a new design, FWIW.)
  • AnonHP 6y ago
    On a tangential note, there were reports about the Intel based MacBook Pro from earlier this year having CPU usage spikes and heating issues when charging from the left side port. For users with this problem, it was effectively “charge using the right side port”.
    • threeseed 6y ago
      As a MacBook Pro owner this is nonsense. It throttles badly and overheats no matter which side you charge on. Actually surprised it didn't get more attention. If you're downloading and charging at the same time then your computer is unusable.
      • brailsafe 6y ago
        Hmm, I'll check this out today. Ironically I was downloading XCode last night and the fans sped up for an hour.
      • eyelidlessness 6y ago
        I definitely get more heat and throttling powering on the left side than the right, on my 2019 16”. There are quite a lot of people who have reported the same, for all models which have USB-c ports on both sides. If you’re not seeing a difference, it’s pretty likely your workload or some background process is still pushing the thermal limits of your machine.
      • tgarv 6y ago
        Hmm, I wouldn't say this is nonsense. I can consistently reproduce the issue by charging on the left side (making the computer completely unusable), and then switching to the right side and having it run perfectly fine. Since I started charging on the right side I've had zero issues with it.
• interestica 6y ago
  How was this not called AppleCore™
• tobr 6y ago
  Two fewer Thunderbolt ports on the MacBook Pro. That’s not an upgrade...?
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    You're comparing it with the wrong computer.
    • stevewodil 6y ago
      What do you mean by this? The commenter is stating how the 2016-2019 MBP 13" had 4 thunderbolt ports, and this new one only has 2
      • saagarjha 6y ago
        Not every 13" MacBook Pro has had four Thunderbolt ports; the base model always had just two. This computer clearly replaces that one, and Apple will launch another MacBook Pro in the future to replace the rest.
        • stevewodil 6y ago
          Oh that's right there was the model without the touchbar that had two ports and was a carryover from 2017, thanks for clarifying
          • asdff 6y ago
            There was a model even with the touchbar that only had two ports and one fan. the four port model got you more cores and two fans, quite a different computer internally despite sharing the same shape and 13" macbook pro label. very confusing for consumers.
            • stevewodil 6y ago
              Apparently confusing for me as well, because I'd never known of that device and I'm reasonably familiar with Apple's lineup. Sure enough, it does exist: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP799 https://support.apple.com/kb/SP799
• Darmody 6y ago
  I backed a game a while ago on Kickstarter with native support for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Several weeks ago they sent us a message saying they were ditching the MacOS version due the architecture change. I wonder how it'll affect the whole ecosystem. I think it'll end being like an iOS on steroids.
  • mattgreenrocks 6y ago
    I think their hope is that the Mac's anemic game ecosystem will be filled in by iOS games which run natively. I hope they're right, and I say that as someone who has a gaming PC and still hasn't found many quality core games on iOS.
    • acomjean 6y ago
      The fact that they say it will run the iOS version of "among us" and HBO max, means I think your right.
  • aaomidi 6y ago
    How hard would it be to release an ARM version? Also out of curiosity, what game was it?
    • Macha 6y ago
      For a traditional PC/console game, it's likely porting to Metal is the bigger issue.
    • Darmody 6y ago
      Last Epoch. It's made by an indie studio which doesn't have the resources to port a game like this to a ARM. They also use a lot of third party software so it's not even up to them.
    • qayxc 6y ago
      > How hard would it be to release an ARM version? Depends on the engine the game uses. Games built on top of frameworks like Unity, Unreal Engine and the like get platform support basically "for free" as long as the framework in question supports the target platform. Any in-house developed engine might either depend on 3rd party support (e.g. libraries like SFML[1]) or need to be recompiled for the new platform. Depending on architectural differences, optimisation and asset loading (in case endianness[2] differs) needs to be altered accordingly. The main reason for a decision to cancel a release would be time and effort vs expected sales. The Mac market will be fragmented into Intel and Apple Silicon from now on and every "Mac version" would really be two separate ports (complete with separate QA and optimisation). An independent studio might just not have the resources and experience to tackle this and a port that doesn't sell can effectively be worse than not releasing on a platform. edit: [1] https://www.sfml-dev.org https://www.sfml-dev.org [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
• cgufus 6y ago
  Eehm. What is the actual difference between the MBA M1 and the MBP 13 M1? (except the latter is thicker?) Checked the compareison and didn‘t find anything substantial...
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Fan, likely clock speed. And a different design.
  • pgib 6y ago
    Yeah, that's what I was just looking at. Up to 2 more hours of battery life, TouchBar, and a [slightly?] better microphone is the only difference I can see. Not much price difference either.
  • aaronjl 6y ago
    The MBP gets all 8 GPU cores, the MBA gets 7 (but you can upgrade the MBA to get all 8 for effectively $50 with a $200 upgrade to the storage as well). Touchbar and bigger battery. I think those are the only differences
    • aaomidi 6y ago
      I think also "Studio Microphone Quality" - whatever that means.
      • hyperdimension 6y ago
        That would seem to imply whatever quality it has resembles a studio microphone. It doesn't say 'Quality Studio Microphone' after all. It reminds me of my recent purchase of an electric shaver. The front of the box proudly proclaimed 'WAHL: The Brand Professionals Use.' It wasn't until I got home and started opening it that I saw a little bit of fine print on the side of the box: "not to be used in a professional capacity."
  • bartq 6y ago
    13 inch Pro has brighter screen I think, and that is noticable.
• andy_ppp 6y ago
  Anyone else wonder if these new apps will allow installing software from outside the App store - I was worried when they were talking about Secure Enclave.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Yes.
• akmarinov 6y ago
  No 32GB RAM on the 13”
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• dang 6y ago
  Url changed from https://www.apple.com/mac/ https://www.apple.com/mac/ to the press release with more info. If there's a more accurate and neutral third-party article, let me know and we can change it again.
• jiofih 6y ago
  The performance improvements here are astounding. I can’t even remember when we last saw a 2x improvement in CPU perf, much less 3-5x and with better battery life to boot!
• mLuby 6y ago
  - 16GB RAM - 1TB SSD - 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 - 2 Thunderbolt - 2 USB B - Headphone jack - MagSafe power - HDMI - SD Card Reader - Physical function keys row MacBook design peaked in 2015.
  • tgv 6y ago
    One word: keyboard.
  • nicoburns 6y ago
    I have the 2015 model, and I completely agree. It's a real shame though, because I would absolutely love a faster processor.
  • twalla 6y ago
    you forgot: - retina display - actually good keyboard - the ability to upgrade storage
• jbverschoor 6y ago
  Still only 720p FaceTime cam. Too bad it's only TB on one side, and too bad it's not a 14" design. Apart form that - excellent!
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  The macmini can be a superior ‘apple tv’ replacement for a TV. It fits nicely, can support USB controllers for emulating SNES/MAME/etc. supports airdrop etc.
• scep12 6y ago
  Optimistically: I suspect the reason they didn't upgrade the 16" pro is because of the RAM story. In other words: no 16" w/ the M1 is an acknowledgment that configurations with 32gb (and hopefully 64gb) of RAM are not ready, and it would be unreasonable to release the highest end MBP without those options available. Hopefully we'll see the 13" and 16" MBPs with M1+ and more RAM next Spring.
• tiffanyh 6y ago
  No FaceID, interesting. I've said this in another thread and thought they might use FaceID as a "Pro" only feature like they do on the iPads but nope, they also released an updated 13" MacBook Pro without FaceID.
  • KMnO4 6y ago
    As much as Apple touts features as "incredible innovations", I think a lot of them are just engineering solutions. I see FaceID as the compromise of increasing screen size to fill all the real estate on the iPhone. The Macbooks have tons of room for extra sensors on the keyboard part but not a lot can be put on the screen.
• callamdelaney 6y ago
  I'll be sticking with my 2015 Macbook Pro Retina 13". Great machine, not too thin, heavy enough, no stupid touch screen, usb ports, great keyboard. Everything apple has done since hasn't compared.
  • sebmellen 6y ago
    Same here, I love this machine. Everything after 2015 went downhill in my view.
    • acomjean 6y ago
      Same. This is the best machine I've owned. I heard yesterday that Apple does not offer a battery replacement for 2014s and you have to go third party. This is an unfortunate development and I'm wondering if I should inquire about getting mine replaced.
      • mikeklaas 6y ago
        I replaced the battery in my 2013 about 11 months ago, FWIW.
  • cyrialize 6y ago
    Used Apple products maintain their value very well. The 2015 MBP Retina can be found on Ebay between $700-$1000. I've thought about getting one myself.
  • pgrote 6y ago
    >2015 Macbook Pro Retina 13" How long will OS updates be distributed for it?
    • bromuro 6y ago
      Luckly Big Sur is supported! I just bought a second hand 2015 ... better than the 16” of the last year!
    • kccqzy 6y ago
• jonplackett 6y ago
  Lots I'm impressed with but... it's a shame to see they've cut the storage capacity in half! Finally with the last update of Macbook Pro they ditched the ridiculous 256gb SSD and went 512/1tb in the 2 pre-built models. Now we're back to 256/512. The impressively low starting price is hiding behind this and the halving of default RAM too.
  • wilsonnb3 6y ago
    I believe that was only for the higher end 4 port MacBook Pro 13, not the lower end 2 port version that the new ARM version is replacing.
• ZeroSync 6y ago
  Arm based Chromebook with a worse kernel, lack of 32gb is a no go. Trying to squeeze some sales right into the end of the year seems like.
• poulsbohemian 6y ago
  When I was an active software developer, I always had the biggest and beefiest machine possible, plus a MBP for when I was on the move. Now, off in another career field, I'm really wondering why I would choose a MPB over an iPad Air or Pro. By the time you add a keyboard to the iPad, it kinda feels like the only real difference is whether you want to run Xcode. Other than that, is there really anything you can do on a MBP that you can't do on an iPad?
  • samjmck 6y ago
    The UX for multitasking is, in my opinion, still much better on a laptop that it is on the iPad.
  • andybak 6y ago
    > is there really anything you can do on a MBP that you can't do on an iPad? If the App Store gatekeepers get their way then "run a shell". (I've recently got my first iPad - my first iOS device in a very long time - and it's actually less locked down than I was expecting. I had no idea they had relaxed the rules on scripting on the device. But it's still way, way more locked down than a real computer)
• nerfhammer 6y ago
  One random thing: one of the photos in the announcement has a Chinese (I think) keyboard layout https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/Apple_new-macbookair-wallpaper-screen_11102020_big.jpg.large_2x.jpg https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/A... matches https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LC/A/magic-keyboard-chinese-pinyin https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LC/A/magic-keyboard-...
• blux 6y ago
  Lots of comments from people complaining about the lack of 32GB of RAM. Can someone explain to me the need for 32GB of RAM as a developer? Is it the IDE or your particular application area? As for me, I do all my professional development (C++17/Linux, Vim, EDA industry) on a five year old T450s with 12GB of RAM. For me the limiting factor is CPU power for sure. I only run out of RAM running some of the larger customer tests for which I have to go to a beefy machine in our network, but that happens rarely.
  • allwein 6y ago
    I imagine that it's someone that runs either either a lot of virtual machines or a lot of Docker Containers.
  • dtech 6y ago
    docker, JVM VMs, IDEs that take a couple gigs. You can always use it.
  • twalla 6y ago
    I know Android Studio will basically eat up however much RAM is on your system. Also, with containers becoming more common, lots of people use something like Docker Compose locally to mock multiple services or parts of a system, which, depending on how well optimized those containers are, can add up quickly.
  • seanalexander 6y ago
    As a developer, I routinely need over 128GB. 32GB is cutting is short.
    • asdff 6y ago
      why aren't you using a server?
  • Jtsummers 6y ago
    I asked the same question. I get why people need more than 16GB of RAM, but honestly a lot of the answers seem to neglect that RAM (in most laptops) is not going to be your limiter, the CPU and/or GPU will be the limiter first for many of the cases people list. At that point, no amount of RAM will save you (though it may help).
• paulpauper 6y ago
  Is the macpro worth the cost? I want to keep 300+ browser tabs opens, 6+ chrome user sessions, and many other programs running. My PC usually gets sluggish after a day of this. I don't do graphics design or gaming, but rather need to keep a lot of tabs and sessions open on chrome and to a lesser extent on Firefox.
  • ako 6y ago
    What do you do with 300+ browser tabs?
    • paulpauper 6y ago
      i like having everything accessible when I need it.
  • iulian_r 6y ago
    I think you have to upgrade your laptop often or you won't keep up with the increasing requirements of software. I have a similar flow as you do (tons of apps, tabs, Linux workspaces, code compiling, video running etc). I also get easily annoyed when I do some basic stuff and all of a sudden the computer lags behind, is stuck etc. in the end I went with a desktop computer (if you have the space and you don't mind losing portability - I also have a Dell XPS in a pretty good shape for when I need it). It does waaay better when it comes to multitasking, never gets sluggish, much easier to upgrade, no throttiling/overheating problems, cheaper.
  • kccqzy 6y ago
    There's no new Mac Pro announced today.
• jzymbaluk 6y ago
  iOS and MacOS are clearly starting to converge here, this current gen of Macs are even able to run iOS apps. I wonder if we'll ever see macs with touchscreens, or if iPads will become macs before macs become iPads
• cactus2093 6y ago
  Have they said anything about hyperkit on the new platform? And being able to run stuff like Docker for Mac? I've seen lots said about the lack of Bootcamp support but I've actually never even used Bootcamp, Linux VMS are much more relevant for me and I imagine many other developers.
  • ariporad 6y ago
    During WWDC, they explicitly said that Apple Silicon will support virtualization and Docker. Rosetta doesn't work for virtualization though, so you have to run an ARM version of Linux. They don't support booting directly to a non-Mac OS, AFAIK. Rumor has it that they'll eventually support virtualized Windows, but it's currently impossible for an end-user to buy a copy of ARM Windows.
    • lisnake 6y ago
      Windows 10 version for raspberry pi used to be freely available
  • dwaite 6y ago
    From their roadmap, it does not appear they have really investigated this yet. [1] Rosetta 2 translates Mac apps and can deal with JIT, but I do not believe it will work through virtualization. It should be relatively light lifting to make Docker for Mac run an ARM linux installation and ARM-built containers. From there, you likely would want to strategically add multi-arch container support to the docker runtime. This might be implemented based on existing qemu containers [2] 1: https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/142 https://github.com/docker/roadmap/issues/142 2: https://github.com/multiarch/qemu-user-static https://github.com/multiarch/qemu-user-static
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      Rosetta is all emulation, there’s no virtualization involved.
  • rjsw 6y ago
    Do you want to run a Linux/x86_64 VM or a Linux/aarch64 one ?
• Shivetya 6y ago
  What also stood out for me is how few big names they had for companies moving to Apple Silicon. I really did not recognize most of the companies they did highlight. I had been hoping for a web page dedicated to showing all companies on board with products coming or expected in the next year
• devxpy 6y ago
  Excuse me, but why does the pro version even exist? It feels like paying 300$ for the novelty of a ... fan?
  • samename 6y ago
    There’s probably some limits they’ve placed on the Air since it doesn’t have a fan.
  • vbezhenar 6y ago
    Fan allows for better performance. Also Pro features Touch bar.
• notahaterbut 6y ago
  The peak of the mac mini was the 2012 Mac Mini Server where you could add an extra HDD and had easy access to the memory. That was the Apple I respected. I'm not sure I understand why the current Mac Mini's needed to be a unibody design, since it just sits on your desk. While I am excited for the M1 chip and the future of ARM, I'm absolutely disgusted by the price gouging in the name of memory and HDD space.
• protomyth 6y ago
  Looks like the Mac mini no longer has the ability to have a 10GBe Ethernet port. So, we could get 64GB of RAM and 10GBe in the last generation, and now this.
  • vbezhenar 6y ago
    They still sell Intel version, it's not gone. Also I think that there will be USB dongles for 10GBe Ethernet which is not as convenient, for sure, but bearable. And RAM limit is unfortunate indeed. I wouldn't buy 8GB RAM in 2020 at all and 16GB is barely enough, so this device won't last long given the lack of upgradability. Probably better RAM options will come next year.
    • protomyth 6y ago
      Well, the current USB-C to 10GBe is a big box (about two decks of playing cards) and costs about $150. I'm a bit unhappy about it. When a community college is starting to buy all 10GBe interfaces, its about time for Apple to move on. I'm going to get two Mac minis to look at, and then wait to replace my current machine when 32 or 64 GB ARM machines are available.
• tiffanyh 6y ago
  I'm surprised the dropped Intel so fast. I would have thought they would have allowed people to buy both ARM and Intel models for a period of time. I guess not.
  • yoz-y 6y ago
    They still sell a lot of other intel Macs, including a 13" MBP and a Mac mini.
• rafaelturk 6y ago
  My expectation for the #AppleEvent was actually a MacBook Pro without the Touch Bar.
• shilgapira 6y ago
  No multiple displays. Less RAM than an Intel. Lame.
• cute_boi 6y ago
  I bought macbook pro 13 inch 2017 edition but I regret it forever due to its screen issue. Apple asks like 800$ repair for around 1100$ laptop atm. They placed tcon board near heatsink and congratulation if ur cpu gets heated your screen will suddenly stop working. So please buy after checking how much it can be repaired :/
• speedgoose 6y ago
  No touchscreen?
  • mrweasel 6y ago
    No, because that would make it an iPad. While I don’t see the need for a touchscreen on a laptop, I think Apple fear that it would hurt iPad sales.
    • speedgoose 6y ago
      An iPad with a good keyboard and an operating system that allows the user to do more things would be nice. Like running Linux for development, having a web browser that is not Safari inside, having to visual studio code...
      • mrweasel 6y ago
        Sure, but that’s not what the iPad is for in Apple mind.
• shrimpx 6y ago
  The new Air looks good. The new mbp 13” not so much. If they’re going to lower the max ram they should at least provide an explanation why 16g in the new architecture is comparable to 32 in the previous, if that’s indeed the case.
  • lostgame 6y ago
    16GB RAM max prevented me from an immediate purchase. Next year, when I can at least have 32GB and be somewhat future-proofed. That they are still selling new computers for $1000+ in 2020 with 8GB RAM as the default and 16GB of RAM max is a bad joke.
    • bfrog 6y ago
      My T460 has had 32GB in it for years now... can't even imagine going back to 16GB with all this electron bullcrap
      • Baeocystin 6y ago
        I finally switched to 32GiB this year, and man, what a difference. I hadn't thought I was all that constrained by 16, but now that I'm not, all the edge cases where that was the pain point are thrown in to relief.
        • bfrog 6y ago
          Yeah like running 2 electron apps and chrome
    • geodel 6y ago
      Dell XPS 1000+ 8GB, Lenovo X1: 1000+ 8GB, Thinkpad T14s 1000+ 8GB, this list could be long. Even System76 linux computers are 1000+ for 8GB config. I do not know where you got this idea that 1000+ laptop have 16GB default. I am sure there will be consumer (crap) computers like HP pavilion, Dell inspiron etc where one can get 1000+ computer with 16GB or so RAM.
• brailsafe 6y ago
  Performance gains are probably welcome aside from the ram limitation, though I was at 16gb anyway. For those mentioning USB ports on the pro, it seems like 4 are available on the highest spec version. I'm also excited for Big Sur, let's hope it isn't a catastrophe like Catalina was. Otherwise I'm disappointed that there wasn't a physical design iteration. I was really hoping for something. MicroLED screen, faster refresh rate, different colours of unibody, smaller bezels, more durable anti-reflective coating, more dent resistance, but nothing AFAICT.
• jason0597 6y ago
  I hope these new Macs will respect the openness we've had on the PC platform for the past 30 years and allow you to run any operating system you like without being beholden to the manufacturer (like they do on the iPhone). I'm really worried that Apple is gaining too much power over the platform and they are going to make it difficult (or near impossible) to boot other operating systems (e.g. Linux)
• theorg 6y ago
  Watching this event was definitely an interesting look at the top rungs of Apple. Their own corporate self-perception has certainly evolved in the last few years. I think many commentators have noted the way that Apple has tried to take its "decisive-break-with-the-past" marketing of prior years and prior hardware generations and make it something that can keep selling into the long term. Making their own chips seems like yet another salvo in that effort. For anyone interested in questions about the corporate structure of Apple behind-the-scenes, you might like this article: https://theorg.com/insights/the-minds-behind-apples-revolutionary-new-generation-of-macs https://theorg.com/insights/the-minds-behind-apples-revoluti...
• TechBro8615 6y ago
  Straw poll: I need a new development machine, price is not an object but it has to be a Mac. Should I buy this new M1 or go with the Intel 16 inch MBP? My gut says there’s going to be a year or two of cross-compilation nightmares. I do a lot of Docker-based development. Wondering what everyone else thinks?
  • ericmay 6y ago
    If you need something new yea I'd go with the Intel MBP right now.
  • seunosewa 6y ago
    For development, definitely the Intel. Most Macs in use would be Intel Macs for a while.
  • dstick 6y ago
    Go for the 16 inch. I’ve upgraded from my 2015 model (couldn’t stand the butterfly keys) and the wait was worth it! Great keyboard, physical escape key, 16 threads, large screen - great machine. It took them 5 years to get there so don’t get your hopes up for this new one ;-)
    • TechBro8615 6y ago
      Yeah, I think that’s what I’ll do. Although the 16” is bigger than I need; I wish they kept the 13” Intel lineup available.
      • berkut 6y ago
        There are still some MBP-13 Intels (i5) with 4 Thunderbolt ports + more RAM still available I think?
        • TechBro8615 6y ago
          Hm... not that I can find on their online store.
• supernova87a 6y ago
  I wonder, is the 8GB vs. 16GB "unified memory" the kind of thing where all of the hardware actually has 16GB, but they disable half of it to sell the lower price version? Like Tesla's Model S 40 kwh?
  • jjcm 6y ago
    Very excited for the tear downs of these to understand that as well. Could just be a binning thing as well if there’s faults in the memory.
  • pavlov 6y ago
    Probably binning where faulty memory gets disabled and flagged as a 8GB chip? Intel did that for the 486SX processor 30 years ago. The 486 was the first x86 CPU with an integrated FPU. Chips that failed the FPU test were sold as cheaper 486SX with the FPU disabled.
    • nl 6y ago
      I've never heard that the 486SX was a binned 486 - my impression was that it was a deliberate choice done during manufacture. Wikipedia backs up my recollection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX
      • pavlov 6y ago
        Yeah, seems like “SX is a binned faulty DX” was a popular but unconfirmed rumor that has stuck with me for 30 years. The die is the same, but there’s no evidence Intel rebranded rejected DX chips. Here’s an extremely pedantic discussion (when it comes to obsolete hardware, the best kind of discussion) on the topic: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/lies-damn-lies-and-wikipedia/ http://www.os2museum.com/wp/lies-damn-lies-and-wikipedia/
    • stjohnswarts 6y ago
      That's not the only way they "bin" things. some have one time blow fuses and they will disable parts of the chip if they are being "lean" and just manufacture towards the number they expect to sell of each version. . It costs about as much to make one with an FPU or without it from a chip manufacturing point of view.
• tiffanyh 6y ago
  Apple officially has dropped mentioning the CPU frequency for these new Macs (just like they don't mentioned it with iOS devices)
  • djhaskin987 6y ago
    Indeed. The CPU is 3.5x faster "than before". What is this before? December 2020 or the last time they made their own chip?
    • FireBeyond 6y ago
      And "faster than the latest Intel mobile CPU". Note they say "latest", not "best". That means that a Celeron 5205U, dual core processor with 1.9GHz, no turbo, no hyper threading, 2MB L1, would be a valid baseline.
  • keyle 6y ago
    Yep we're 4X this and 3X that and here is a graph with a 2 curves and no scale, but it's a glowing line! Then the top model still ships with a Radeon mobile chip. So... your super duper M1 graphics, not so super duper.
    • Semiapies 6y ago
      And if you look at the tiny, tiny, dark-gray-on-black footnotes, they're making these comparisons with things like...the i3 Mac Minis. Not impressive.
  • _alex_ 6y ago
    I think it's actually a good move for the first gen. If they put out the CPU frequency, people would be comparing it to the intel parts. ARM and x86 being different architectures, a 2GHz M1 is going to perform differently than a 2GHz Core i5
    • asdff 6y ago
      There's been dozens of macs that have come out with a lower baseline frequency than the last gen. My ancient 2004 ibook G4 has a higher frequency than a 2020 macbook air, doesn't mean customers conflate it to be faster nor should they if your marketing was worth a damn.
• jere 6y ago
  Any new security implications to having memory shared by everything on the chip?
  • pram 6y ago
    Perhaps the opposite, arm64e has pointer authentication: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/preparing_your_app_to_work_with_pointer_authentication https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/preparing...
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Memory protection is still a thing ;)
    • jere 6y ago
      Side channels are still a thing too?
• deleted 6y ago
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• iamben 6y ago
  This is galling. I bought a new top spec Air earlier in the year to replace the one I'd owned since 2013. I hate it. The fan comes on about every 30 seconds (doing things on the new machine that were fine on the 2013 one). Literally no at Apple seems to care and I'm not the only one complaining. It's taken then less than 6 months to refresh the entire line? What an absolute kick in the teeth - especially on the back of a machine I really dislike. Super shitty move from Apple.
  • a_c_s 6y ago
    I'm sorry you got a lemon but what does that have to do with how often Apple releases new machines? How often is Apple allowed to refresh their laptop lines for it not to be 'galling'?
• deleted 6y ago
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• keyle 6y ago
  Quick question - if it's so super duper gfx 4X speed .... why still ship the new macbook pro with a radeon mobile chip? It basically means your M1 won't get close to a radeon mobile chip...
  • CraftThatBlock 6y ago
    You are likely looking at the Intel models
• tiffanyh 6y ago
  I don't understand the pricing of the MacBook Air vs the 13" Pro. The Air ($1249) vs 13" Pro ($1299), you get: - same CPU - same GPU - same Neural chip - same RAM (8gb) - More storage for the Air (512gb vs 256gb with 13" Pro) - You get Touch Bar with 13" Pro So if you don't care about the Touch Bar, you actually get with the Air: - better specs - smaller device footprint - and $50 cheaper. Am I missing something?
  • keyle 6y ago
    As a previous macbook pro top model owner, with the huge amount of dysfunctional features it had, I'd be totally in for a mac book air.
  • css 6y ago
    Air only has passive cooling; Pro has a fan.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • adwi 6y ago
      Depending on benchmarks sounds like another win for the MBA...
    • Osiris 6y ago
      So the Pro should be able to maintain higher clock speeds for longer, is the assumption?
      • kjsthree 6y ago
        Yes, that is almost certainly the case. They didn’t mention clock speed at all though so we’ll have to wait for real-world tests.
      • ralph87 6y ago
        The emphasis here being on the word "should". I wouldn't buy just yet until some third party has published a sustained load/heat test. Apple have sucked at this for quite some years now, it's folly to touch a MacBook for anything remotely compute-intensive
• rsp1984 6y ago
  Interestingly, the Air and the Pro now are almost identical in specs: same SoC, same display, same connectors, same RAM, same SSDs. On the plus side I only see the larger battery for the Pro. On the minus side it's more heavy and a bit more bulky. And it's got the TouchBar (I'd count that as a negative...). Honestly, why spend the $300 extra? I'd take the Air any day.
  • 3adawi 6y ago
    thing it does have a better mic and better cooling so you get better performance from your CPUs
  • _alex_ 6y ago
    I think it's going to come down to battery and the fan, which will let them run the chip hotter (faster) for longer
• howmayiannoyyou 6y ago
  Just ordered a Mac Mini. It finally has the performance config I can justify. Can't wait to take this thing for spin.
• hankchinaski 6y ago
  disappointed with the design refresh or lack thereof. also disappointed with the subpar camera, 8gb ram as base spec. so thanks but i will pass
• WhyNotHugo 6y ago
  The new Mac Mini is €50 cheaper than what the previous one was 2 days ago. I'm positively impressed here.
• dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Touchscreen, right?
• diffrinse 6y ago
  If the heat/cooling story is here for the Mini, that thing is exactly what I need
• dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Apple would love to kill laptops because consumers expect them to be general purpose computers. That's not really apple's business model, though.
• deleted 6y ago
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• jrochkind1 6y ago
  Huh, the Macbook Pro only has the same two thunderbolt/USB ports as the Air? (One of which will be in use by a power adapter if you are plugged in, so you really only have one port). I was imagining upgrading to the Pro to get more USB ports, but if that's not an option... I can't see why I'd ever pay for a Pro. I like having more than one USB port so I can copy things from one external HD to another. I guess I'd need a dock for that.
  • brailsafe 6y ago
    I thought so too, but it seems like the highest end 13" does have 4
    • jrochkind1 6y ago
      oh yeah? do you mean the 16"? Oh yeah looks like it. That's too big for me. Odd, 13" with two ports or 16" with 4.
      • brailsafe 6y ago
        You know what, my mistake actually, but the tone seems unnecessarily derisive. I was looking at the 13" and scrolled all the way down to see 4 thunderbolt ports, but that's on the "2.0GHz Intel Core i5 Quad-Core Processor with Intel Iris Plus Graphics", so not the M1 processor. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising that they're still selling it, but I'll return to being peeved about the regression to 2 ports.
        • jrochkind1 6y ago
          My tone seemed derisive? Sorry, it was not intended! It is a bit confusing to me (apparently not just me!), just trying to figure out what's going on!
• nbzso 6y ago
  I know that this transition will benefit the real apple users, managers, influencers and cool kids. Obviously I will keep and refurbish my 2013 macbook pro for Linux, will run offline Windows for design (thanks to Affinity) and have fun with Logic on some apple device/computer. Future computing will be fragmented..
• ryukafalz 6y ago
  I'll be honest, I was really hoping they'd pull a DeX-like thing out of their pocket at the end of that presentation. "Oh, those iPhones you all have? Especially the new ones with MagSafe chargers? Yeah, plug it into/set it on this lapdock/stationary dock and it's running macOS." Yeah, I know they'd never do it. It's not their style. But they're in the best position to do that well out of any of the major phone manufacturers. In the meantime I'll be waiting for some of these Linux phones to mature a little...
• Shorel 6y ago
  It seems that I will love that hardware and I want to put Linux in it. Is this even possible? Will they have a locked loader?
• inspector-g 6y ago
  Something I haven’t seen commented on (it could certainly be here, just buried): all these models, in their previous Intel incarnation, only had integrated GPUs. It seems to me that at least one reason for why these particular models were released today is that Apple isn’t quite ready to release models with a discrete GPU (on ARM).
  • achairapart 6y ago
    Many things are unclear. There's so much confusion right now. - Will they ship a more advanced spec for the upper line? Something like a M1x, thus replacing the need for a third-party discrete GPU? - Will they market these devices like they do with the iPhone: same Soc for every generation but with different sizes/extras (Macbook Air, Pro, Mac Mini just like you choose between an iPhone Mini, Pro, Max)? - How long Intel-based machines will still be around? What they will do with the Mac Pro? - How smooth will be the transition with OS/software (I expect it will take more than the two year planned) and how much it will change with this new ARM ecosystem? As with any new first generation device from Apple, plus this vast, unknown land, I'd stay away from these machines and wait for at the least the next iteration (maybe two).
• oblib 6y ago
  When I was a kid I worked with my father building custom cars. We customized a car for the guy who owned a famous brand of liquor. He had a vanity license plate on one of his cars that said something like "3 Stars" on it and I asked him what that stood for. He said it was less expensive brand of the liquor he sold and then he went on to say "it's the same as the expensive stuff and if you tell anyone that they'll call you a liar, but take it from me, it's the same stuff". And he was right. I did tell people and those who purchased his expensive brand flat out insisted I was wrong. Apple can charge more because they always have and people will buy it because they believe it's better.
  • hazz99 6y ago
    From my experience, the touchpad and OS experience is decidedly better. This is a subjective judgement, but anecdotally I've heard it from many people.
    • oblib 6y ago
      Well, we're talking about hardware here, or at least I was. I love my late `09 Mac Mini. Best Mac I've owned yet, but for the same amount we'll pay for a new one we could probably build our own Linux box with much better specs.
  • sircastor 6y ago
    Yes, people believe it’s better. The liquor the man in your story sold (unless I’ve read this wrong) was literally the same as the expensive stuff. Apple’s always been in the experience game. And they’ve charged a premium for the experience, even though underneath the pieces were the same. Some people hate it and some people love it. This is another change to the experience. I think though that we’re finally beyond (excuse the expression) “Apples to Apples” comparison though. This hardware is literally not the same stuff - unless you’re down to you talking about NAND gates.
  • jjtheblunt 6y ago
    Maybe some people buy more expensive Apple products after dependability problems with competitor products. (Happened to me with a brand new Sony Vaio and a Dell, for example.)
• supernova87a 6y ago
  By the way, does anyone have info / advice on whether to stay away from the very first release of brand new hardware from a buggy point of view? Or manufacturing kinks still being worked out?
  • eugeniub 6y ago
    Maybe I'll have to eat my words in a few weeks but I can't say I'm super concerned. M1 seems a lot like the A14, which is a lot like the A13, which is a lot like the A12, etc... I'm more concerned about how long it will take for most apps to have full support for both macOS Catalina and Apple Silicon. When the 2012 retina MacBooks came out, quite a few apps were awkwardly pixelated for a long, long time.
• bane 6y ago
  This is going to be awkward and then it'll eventually become pretty good. From Apple's perspective, they're making the right move to their own CPU design. Apple has always been about controlling the user experience and by bringing it all in-house it takes things that were out of their control (Intel) and allows them to increase their vertical integration, unifying their product lines, and increasing market differentiation. It's been clear for a while that ARM processors have hit near desktop performance and it took the megacompany of Apple to push it over the edge. I'm a dedicated non-Mac user at home, but at work I always chose the MBP option over the craptastic Dell PoS that'll start turning into broken plastic pieces within a year or the latest Microsoft offering which seems to suffer from endless software and driver struggles. The software story will take a while to work out, but Apple has made this transition TWO times before, which is astonishing. Nobody else has done this successfully. Part of the reason is there is simply less of a need among Mac users to maintain backwards compatibility and simply far less software to carry forward. Even then, it appears that Apple has done some kind of magic to allow older software to work on the new architecture without too much fuss -- I'm awaiting some benchmarks! (This will hopefully push more of the industry to look at desktop ARM systems)
• mark_l_watson 6y ago
  Am I the only person here disappointed that they did not announce a new MacBook? MacBook is my favorite form factor: OK for a slow typist like me, big enough screen when I have a large USB-C monitor on my desk, and I especially like the light weight and small size.
• BatteryMountain 6y ago
  How are companies still releasing hardware with 8GB RAM? My MacBook Air from ~2016 has 8GB of RAM. My first PC which had 8GB of RAM was built in ~2010 if I remember correctly. My current machine has 32GB. In all honesty, 32GB is not even much, considering my motherboard can take 128GB (in the old days, if your motherboard could take max 8GB RAM, people would fill all the slots to capacity). Also, I have a Lenovo machine that I paid $200 for that has 8GB RAM. WHY any power user would buy a MacBook is beyond me. They've become devices that only my mother would use, not to get work done. Apple should've made the baseline 32GB with 128GB as max spec. It would've forced the whole industry to give us more RAM. So for the next two years RAM will still be stagnant, all other manufacturers that copies Apple will indeed keep shipping 8GB without blinking.
  • robertlagrant 6y ago
    This is a confusing comment. If your mother doesn't need more than 8GB RAM, why should she have to pay for more? It's not as though you can't order more if you want it. It wouldn't force the industry to offer more. It would just mean purchasers such as your mother wouldn't buy a Mac.
    • hoseja 6y ago
      Let's not pretend decent amount of RAM is prohibitively expensive.
    • viraptor 6y ago
      > It's not as though you can't order more if you want it. You can't upgrade it on new Mac laptops. The ram is basically fully integrated in the system now. You can do 16gb for silly high price, but that's also not massive these days.
      • robertlagrant 6y ago
        Agreed, but I'm talking about ordering more initially. As in it's not a bad idea to have 2 options instead of one.
  • 6y ago
• BatteryMountain 6y ago
  I guess they will also never bring back normal USB-3.1 ports. Guess I will have to keep my $5000 camera plugged into my Ryzen-based PC, it has 6x USB-3.1 ports. Oh and my studio microphone is also "old" usb. And my keyboard/mouse. And my phone cable. And my expensive Corsair flashdrive. And my Seagate external hdd. And my memory card reader (I have 7 memory cards for different cameras). I can go on. I'm not going to daisy-chain stuff. I'm not going to buy a dock (just another thing on my desk and take up another power socket, and more LED's burning nonstop). I'm not going to buy dongles to convert from one spec to another. And no, I'm not going to convert everything to wireless. I have 1gbps fibre where I live, with a Asus router/modem sitting ontop of my PC, hooked up with 1gbps Ethernet cable. The 5GHz wifi is unstable if you don't sit in clear line of sight. I have a USB-3 to Ethernet dongle for my laptops but the fastest one achieves 800mbps and chows about 10% cpu when downloading something. ~2016 MacBook air gets 600mpbs with the same dongle. Apple could've fix their port/dongle/dock mess this time around but chose not to.
  • aiaf 6y ago
    Adding USB-3.1 back now will only serve to confuse customers and 3rd party device/accessory manufacturers.
• treve 6y ago
  > M1 delivers up to 3.5x faster CPU, up to 6x faster GPU, up to 15x faster machine learning (ML) capabilities, and battery life up to 2x longer than before If they can release ARM machines that are such degree better, how terrible is Apple software on Intel? Is this due to Apple software engineers? Is there any reason to use Intel for anything? These are serious questions. I find the multipliers very surprising.
• hoseja 6y ago
  Can't wait for the Rossmann rants about them.
• weystrom 6y ago
  I don't see people mentioning it here, but the Pro machine only supports one external display. People have called the sales rep to confirm and this is indeed the case. This is kind of bad news for the Pro machine.
  • Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    Entry-level pro? Devaluing the "pro" moniker? The latter isn't new though, they've had to spend years in R&D to try and reinvent the Mac Pro for example.
    • weystrom 6y ago
      Yeah, I guess. I just don't understand how my 2015 retina mbp can support up to 4 displays (including the internal one), but this state-of-the-art-3x-gpu-performance chip can't do more than one. This might be tied to some I/O limitation.
• jacknews 6y ago
  How easy is it to replace the keyboard and fans - ie the moving parts that are most likely to break?
• GrinningFool 6y ago
  s
• xmly 6y ago
  Will Python, NodeJS, Java support new mbp on Day 1?