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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus
- PureParadigm 6y agoThis is a complete double-standard. Telegram messages are user-generated content. Is Apple going to start blocking websites in the Safari app? I'm sure one could find a lot worse things than doxxing by using Safari.
- vbezhenar 6y agoIf China would threaten to ban iPhones, surely Apple will block websites. The difference is that governments can block websites without Apple approval. But governments can't block app content without blocking the entire AppStore, so they have to reach Apple.
- marketingPro 6y agoThis isn't how technology works. I feel weird saying something so obvious to me but- Servers/databases have IP addresses that can be blocked just as easy to stop and App.
- jimam 6y agoWell, in the case of Telegram they've already tried pretty hard with the servers and databases route (hasn't worked).
- m-p-3 6y agoAnd most servers nowadays are behind CDNs, so blocking an IP might block more than you actually wanted. And with eSNI being pushed, that might become even more difficult to effectively filter a specific service.
- vbezhenar 6y agoTelegram uses advanced techniques to avoid blocking. You can't just block few IP addresses and call it a day. AFAIK Telegram servers deliver IP addresses of proxy servers via silent Apple Push Notification. Censors have no way of blocking or intercepting those messages. They can only block Apple servers thus disrupting the entire Apple ecosystem from work.
- angry_octet 6y agoThat really isn't an advanced technique, that's just hiding behind Apple's skirts. The govt is no doubt quite willing to block Apple notifications, and Apple is obviously willing and able to kick apps from its notifications platform. Russia for example is blocking all ESNI traffic... You either downgrade or get blocked. Which makes the big services shutdown of domain fronting so inexcusable, just kowtowing to China and every other regime.
- simonh 6y agoWe browsers are specifically excepted from the App Store rules on content. That’s basically because browser vendors don’t have a direct relationship with web site publishers, the way that a service provider like Facebook or Telegram has a relationship with their users that post content. That relationship creates a chain of responsibility.
- snoshy 6y agoThat may be, but it does not refute the accusation that this is a double standard.
- simonh 6y agoWell, yes it does. If you have signed up users with accounts, and you own the infrastructure for disseminating the content they produce, youre responsible for their posts and presence on your platform, and the content you are disseminating. None of that applies to web browsers, or IRC clients, or RSS feed clients, or podcast apps, or plenty of other client apps on the App Store.
- PureParadigm 6y agoIt's a double standard in that web browsers are not considered responsible for the content they display while chat apps are considered responsible. These are two different standards being applied just because of a technicality about whose servers the data is hosted on (whether app owner = server owner). Would Apple be okay with allowing a third-party front-end to the Telegram servers? Safari can be that if you use the web app version of Telegram.
- simonh 6y agoMessaging and content apps that are decoupled from distributed back end infrastructure are ok - IRC, Mastodon, email and there are many others. It’s a clear and consistent principle.
- robertlagrant 6y ago
- greenyoda 6y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24722130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24722130
- tomekw 6y agoOh. I missed that. Thanks!
- ffpip 6y agohttps://t.me/durov/135 https://t.me/durov/135 https://t.me/durov/136 https://t.me/durov/136 I made a post about this. Looks like some filter is taking down all t.me links.
- WA 6y agoThanks. It’s just crazy that Apple doesn’t want Telegram to spell out Apple’s own rules.
- ffpip 6y agoWhat next? Taking down Netflix shows that show apple in a bad manner?
- threeseed 6y agoAre those shows likely to incite violence which may result in people being killed ? Because in Hong Kong similar channels were used to kill police. This isn't a simple question of censorship.
- john_minsk 6y agoWhat about people who ARE killed as a result of police thinking they are anonymous and they won't be prosecuted no matter what?
- M4v3R 6y agoI guess it's a double-edged sword. On one hand it's horrible that people are being killed by the police in Belarus. On the other hand giving platform to anyone to put someone's name and address out there possibly leading to innocent people being lynched or killed by the mob because almost no one will verify whether that someone was really to blame is also terrible. In my view it's one of those situations when Apple is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
- loceng 6y agoIndeed there's the nuance that it's a war of the people against an oppressive regime - and Apple is ignoring this nuance and taking sides.
- robertlagrant 6y agoI don't think this is accurate if Apple are purely objecting to posts that try and identify individuals, opening them up to violence. I don't know if that is the case, but if it is then they aren't taking sides.
- DaiPlusPlus 6y agoThrough what right or means can Apple demand this, though? Telegram is a platform for user-generated content and it seems odd for Apple to single-out those 3 channels/groups specifically - what about the hundreds of thousands of other objectionable groups on Telegram? And why Telegram in particular? Why doesn't Apple give the same ultimatum to Facebook to pressure them to block access to militant ethnonationalist groups - or for a more-fair comparison: Awful groups on WhatsApp. If there's one thing worse than burdensome walled-garden rules, it's inconsistent enforcement of them.
- threeseed 6y agoCan you point me to similar Facebook/Whatsapp groups ? Because they are usually pretty aggressive about acting on inciteful content.
- PureParadigm 6y agoHow about we consider any website accessible through Safari? Is Apple going to start blocking users from viewing those?
- paulcarroty 6y agoI'll not be surprised. Apple always wants total control on their platforms. Obviously sometimes its plays against them.
- barumi 6y ago> Obviously sometimes its plays against them. Also known as accountability for their own actions.
- oarsinsync 6y agoThe opening steps of that are already in place. Apple is already blocking content in safari by default. It’s currently doing so in the name of privacy, and chances are that what it’s currently doing is ultimately user positive. The mechanism is already in place and ready to be expanded to include anything more as necessary.
- lightgreen 6y agoThat’s misleading title: channels doxxed corrupt law enforcers. I’m not saying it is good or bad (I don’t know, what do you think?), just pointing to significantly incomplete title. And another very interesting question is: who complained to Apple? Obviously it is not Apple itself monitored these channels.
- john_minsk 6y agoI'm from Belarus. Honestly, I'm surprised Apple gives a shit. Now I'm worried that Apple can cooperate with local police in case they make inquiry. Am I safe? Here is the link to one group that uses ML to de-anonymize people: https://youtu.be/FAJIrnphTFg https://youtu.be/FAJIrnphTFg
- ghostcluster 6y agoYou've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.
- ceilingcorner 6y agoUnfortunately, I doubt anyone would care for longer than a week. The privacy angle is irrelevant to most of their customers.
- whimsicalism 6y agoIs privacy not the main way Apple is trying to market themselves against Google?
- cheph 6y agoI doubt Apple fanboys even know about Belarus, after all the media is pointing them everywhere but where actual tyranny, injustice and oppression occurs.
- whimsicalism 6y agoWeird usage of what’s happening in Belarus to seemingly try to minimize some domestic issue you don’t like?
- cheph 6y agoPray tell, what domestic issue that I don't like am I trying to minimize? And in answering that, try to not assume the only two places in the world that exists is Belarus and USA.
- ngcc_hk 6y agoA problem hk faced as well. But to threat to shut down telegram is not the right move. You do not kill a platform.
- usr1106 6y agoDon't be so optimistic. Apple and Google are a duopoly to control mobile messaging (outside of China). Not for me, I use a Linux phone (Sailfish OS) with no Google. Not for real activists (criminals in the eyes es of oppressive governments like Chaina, Belarus, Russia, Iran, Turkey, ...) who will always find their way. But for 98% of any population.
- xiphias2 6y agoAllowing sideloading for Android makes Google much harder to control the platform. I’d not be surprised though if sideloading would be not allowed in the future.
- f1refly 6y agoNot really. Normal people don't sideload. The people who do know how to sideload aren't in danger of getting forced by the monopolies anyways because they're tech-savyy enough.
- Yetanfou 6y agoI don't see them disallowing side-loading soon but what I do expect is an expansion of the SafetyNet [1] test which will flag devices with any side-loaded software as 'suspicious', upon which banking and electronic ID apps will refuse to run. Since this will render the device all but useless for many people it will either force them to carry two devices - one for such 'official' stuff, the other for the rest - or to try to find a way around SafetyNet. This is a cat-and-mouse game which has been going on for a number of years and will continue to do so until either Google goes full Apple by locking down the platform or some sort of 'safe enclave' is created which can run on any device no matter its status. Google clamping down too hard will give extra impetus to the further development of alternative mobile operating systems, the viability of which increases with the rise of web-based alternatives for native apps. [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/safetynet-hardware-attestation-hide-root-magisk/ https://www.xda-developers.com/safetynet-hardware-attestatio...
- dwardu 6y agoIt started with Alex Jones
- notRobot 6y agohttps://t.me/durov/136 https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Fucking hell, Apple. ---- cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_of_Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_...
- barumi 6y agoIt´s like Apple wants to enforce censorship on behalf of oppressing dictatorships, but doesn´t want to deal with the consequences of enforcing censorship on behalf of oppressing dictatorships.
- ignoramous 6y agoIt hurts their PR. They can't be out there doing ad campaigns taking a dig at the Facebooks and the Googles of the world whilst overtly abiding to the whims of totalitarian regimes.
- luckylion 6y agoBut it's Belarus, the government is highly unpopular in the West and not really popular anywhere else. And it's not like China where they'd lose a giant market if they decided to stand up to the government, Belarus has a population of under 10m with an average income of under $6k a year. It might just be about doxxing, but the PR problem remains, of course.
- baybal2 6y agoI would be very surprised this being just it, the chance of them finding out about obscure chat channels in a country across the ocean without somebody from Apple having a job monitoring them full time is infinitesimal. This very much reminds me how Google disappeared websites of Russian opposition (weeks after signing some memorandum with kremlin,) and then told "maybe they need to improve their search engine friendliness?"
- spacemanmatt 6y agoApple licks the boot every day.
- luckylion 6y agoIn that line of thinking, isn't Apple the boot? Or even the person wearing the boot?
- pleasebegood 6y agoApple is a US company. If Belarus people want those channels, they should build their own device or get an android. I fully support apple taking action on violence and doxing rather than bending down to other country's people or apps like telegram. If tiktok refused to take down doxing of officials in US, it would get banned.
- john_minsk 6y agoWhen looking at Apple's ads and knowing that it is a US company, I kind of expect that in my oppressive post-soviet country I can get a glimpse of power of US constitution and that they won't bend under demands of third world dictators...
- defkev 6y agoFollowing that "logic" Twitter, a US company, should've been banned a long time ago.
- tmp20201010 6y agoThe relevant piece is this: "Apple is requesting that Telegram shut down three channels used in Belarus to expose the identities of individuals belonging to the Belarusian authoritarian regime that may be oppressing civilians" Exposing identities of individuals is problematic. There are examples of bad things happening when these kind of messages spread through messaging apps.
- Fnoord 6y agoApple is no relevant party in this conflict. This should be a case between the people who are allegedly being doxxed (who go to the police) and the alleged doxxers. This stuff Apple does is what happens when someone gets on a power trip. What they gonna do next, attemp to censor forums available in Safari?
- usrusr 6y agoExposing identities is indeed a very wide spectrum, ranging from identities of sentenced terrorists (nobody'd question that, usually the legalities revolve around the concept of "public figure" which greenlights a lot of publication that would not be allowed about just any random person) on one extreme to identities of people who were found voting for X in an illegal interception of mail ballots on the other extreme. It doesn't really matter where exactly Apple would draw a line, from absurd extremes like "you are free to talk about Roman officials infamous for sentencing innocents to the cross, but please do so without mentioning PII" when someone types in Pontius Pilate, to pragmatic, maybe even lazy "don't use the channel for illegal communications (but we can't really police them)". But they should at least try to be somewhat consistent about it and, even more importantly (but much easier!), by no means require secrecy. A secrecy requirement is just lame and reeks of foul play, horribly.
- intricatedetail 6y agoApple gets high on their power. Toxic ecosystem and one to avoid.
- askvictor 6y agoThis surely isn't going to play well in the upcoming court case v Epic.
- robert_foss 6y agoSo the solution would be to block that channel on Apple devices? And maybe noting that Apple made them block it.
- Un1corn 6y agoApple prohibit them from saying that Apple made them block it because it's "irrelevant". So they must censor those message without any info to the user so the user won't know Apple is oppressing them.
- est 6y agos/Belarus/Hongkong/ and get 1,000 points.
- abc-xyz 6y agos/Belarus/Hongkong/ and get flagged off the frontpage.
- Renaud 6y agoBy allowing itself to overreach into user-content, Apple is setting enough precedents that it will not be able to refuse blocking more and become a moderator for all apps, threatening any with removal if they don't comply. That's a very dangerous path Apple is taking, caving to the demands of dictatorial and corrupt governments. I'm hoping that this move will put Apple in hot waters, at least it should come under scrutiny. But I'm not naive enough to believe that this sort of action will not become more prevalent.
- z3t4 6y agoThe problem is not that a private company can prevent democracy, the problem is that said company is also the only choice when it comes to free speech and communication.
- zucker42 6y agoIt's pretty unfortunate that Apple is willing to support an authoritarian regime to the point of requiring an app to censor its users. I wonder how this came to Apple's attention; was it requested by Belarus's government? And I wonder what the consequences of Telegram not complying would be. It's unclear why they would demand this, given that Google seems to not need to make similar demands. This also seems like it encourages repressive governments to cajole Apple to pressure apps to remove user content in the future.
- dannyw 6y agoIt’s likely requested by the Russian government. Telegram not complying means it gets banned from the App Store.
- duncan_bayne 6y agoIt's almost like it's a bad idea to run hardware and software that prevents you from running software they don't approve. As we keep on seeing time, and time, and time again.
- LockAndLol 6y agoPeople will never learn: don't buy Apple products. You're locking yourself in. It's your own damn fault you bought their device. It's their device and their OS. They can and will dictate whatever they like. If you're doing something that hurts their bottom line, don't be surprised when they take measures to curtail those actions. They're a company. If you don't want to support their actions, don't buy their products. It's that simple. Maybe the Belarussians concerned by this can now actually get rid of their Apple products and buy something else. Does the desktop app support groups? If it does, then get the desktop app.
- throwbackThurs 6y agoWe are fucked either way. Google isn't any better.
- tgv 6y agoThese issues are unrelated, or: it's not a choice between Apple and freedom. First, yes, buying iOS is a partial lock-in. But so is almost every other consumer choice: only if you stick to FOSS and open document formats, and are technical enough to convert your own documents once your apps are no longer supported, you may consider yourself free. Otherwise, lock-in is a given. The lock-in isn't full, either: pictures, email, videos, bookmarks, etc. can be exported to other devices. Second: if you buy Apple, you don't give up the right to protest them. Since the company depends on its customers, pressure can be effective. This is in contrast with free products, where customer pressure can turn counter-productive.
- wruza 6y agoOr you just buy something else for that exact period, in addition to apple. If you go to a war, do you get yourself a gun or just walk there in your kitchen gloves? If you want to make a tasty omelet, do you put your bulletproof vest on? Why should one product be the answer to all situations? You know that apple is a walled garden. You know that walled gardens have their limits of usage. How does that mean that walls must be destroyed? It is non-sequitur. Saying that apple interferes with your freedom is like saying a kitchen glove interferes with your right to defend against a knife. It is just an instrument with a narrow usage area, which may or may not fit your current needs. Let's suppose that I don't support apple's political stances on many things for various reasons, but I will buy new iphone once it is out, because I see value in it. Not surprised if it fails at uprisings, not a problem, that simple. Where the flaw is?
- _zamorano_ 6y agoDoes Apple have a strong user base in Belarus? I don't think many protestors can afford their devices.
- varjag 6y agoBelarus is a developed (if not particularly rich) country, it's a dangerous fallacy to think only third world can have dictatorships.
- aero-glide 6y agohttps://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/belarus https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/belaru... 15%, which is a pretty big number.
- abvdasker 6y agoThis is obscene overreach by Apple. I know I shouldn't be surprised at this point, but Apple using their power as the distributor of Telegram's app to censor legal user-generated content on the platform is just outrageous. Add this incident to the rapidly growing body of evidence proving every privacy advocate's arguments against centralized systems. Some time soon I hope the tech community finds its way back to federated/p2p modes of distribution and communication so we can make this kind of censorship -- and the companies which enforce it -- a thing of the past.
- choeger 6y agoApple really wants to fight a battle over their storey don't they? It looks like the actively make a case for a lex Apple.
- haroldegibbons 6y agoI don't see much difference between big tech and dictatorships. They rule and govern people, they extract their wealth, and they crush or buy off all opposition. It can't last and I'm genuinely concerned for bigwigs and common people alike. It's easy to become disconnected from reality when you're that rich, and I don't think the masses are going to buy the "we're just a tech company" thing much longer.
- K0balt 6y agoWould Signal be a good replacement in this case?
- slezyr 6y agoHow that would be any different?
- jdu9 6y agoAccording to Signal's help page: >The size limit is 150 members. The affected channels on Telegram have tens of thousands of members and it's not possible to directly post to the timeline.
- upofadown 6y agoSignal would be the same sort of thing. Perhaps you meant something with no central contral like a XMPP MUC. That way Apple would have no entity to threaten. Of course then Apple would just nerf all the XMPP clients in the app store and/or the government would block access to all the XMPP servers in use. Dunno how well XMPP over Tor would work here...
- samat 6y agoApple reps told Russian media outlet TJournal that they did not demand channel takedown, they requested to take down only specific posts containing personal information of police officers. https://tjournal.ru/tech/221326-apple-zayavila-chto-ne-trebovala-udalit-telegram-kanaly-i-rasskazala-o-sodeystvii-so-storony-durova https://tjournal.ru/tech/221326-apple-zayavila-chto-ne-trebo...
- saagarjha 6y agoThat’s not much better.
- Retr0 6y agohttps://t.me/durov/136 https://t.me/durov/136 >Apple released a statement saying they didn't want us to take down the 3 channels run by the Belarusian protestors, but just specific posts "disclosing personal information." >This sly wording ignores the fact that channels like @karatelibelarusi and @belarusassholes consist entirely of personal information of violent oppressors and those who helped rig the elections – because that is why those channels exist.
- dagaci 6y agoIn a situation like this, the only option is to block the channels because a single user post (even if it is taken down quickly) could result the app's removal and being blocked.
- jb1991 6y agoThe 1984 metaphor is frequently cited as a great irony here. It’s a well-known theme however, consider Game of Thrones: a dragon queen frees the oppressed of the world with a movement to make all the societies a better place, until it is revealed that she’s actually just power-hungry and wants to control it all, even if it means destroying it all. Sometimes you have to wait to the end to put the beginning motivations in context. I would argue that the famous 1984 commercial was motivated more by jealousy, that another company was ruling the industry, and not them.
- 082349872349872 6y agoConsider also that we get only two points of view on Oceania: Goldstein and Smith. Goldstein's analytic exposition seems to indicate a sound head on his shoulders, and to double check his claims[1], we may verify that nearly everything he writes is, with minor adjustments, applicable to our world as well as to his. Smith[2], on the other hand, shows signs of paranoid delusions[3] and narcissism[4] up through chapter 9 of the fast-forward. Is he an entirely reliable narrator from chapter 10 onward? Is he even awake[5]? Part IV, Chapter 1: Winston could hear the birds through the open window. Julia already had the kettle on, bubbling quietly, and she spoke as she rummaged for the tea tin. "Sleepyhead, you shouldn't fall asleep while reading. Not only did I have to replace your book in the bookshelf this morning, but you woke me up twice, whimpering during the night. Did you have a bad dream, darling?" ... [1] Compare ancient Theban warnings about regurgitating a media line without double checking its claims: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737221 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737221 [2] One of the drones from Sector 7G of MiniTru. They all went to Nottingham, York, etc., so they're certainly not given any important tasks which could be screwed up, but since they do have degrees they still must be given some kind of make work, and (as someone in the work assignment ministry had only skimmed Smith's dossier, putting it down immediately the tea lady came by, and so hadn't realised the effect the nature of this position might have on his innate shaky grip on reality) they are charged with correcting errors in automatically generated transcripts (given the awful state of their cigarette machines is it any wonder the translation machine is so off base so frequently?), which somehow Smith has managed to Mitty up into a fantasy of rewriting, in the grand manner, truth. [3] Of course Syme isn't listed in the rota on the office bulletin board any longer. He hasn't been disappeared. He's been promoted and now works at MiniPlen, so his name now appears on their office rotas. [4] What kind of adult male would run to a woman to whom he hasn't been introduced, whose notion of flirting and courtship reduces entirely to exploiting an (alleged) injury in making a drop, as if she were not a lover but a dealer? One would have to be both immature and pretty full of oneself to not run away from that one, double time. [5] Goldstein does leave us with the question of "why should human equality be averted?" and so Freud might say that Smith's dreams correspond to his subconscious attempting to answer that question. In this case, Smith's id dreams up an insidious totalitarian grand conspiracy theory (paralleling Smith's waking fantasies about his job) in which the Inner Party (which he failed to join entirely due to his poor A-level marks) is motivated exactly like the bullying teenage (they are from the cream of society: both rich and thick) schoolboys of his author's own experience, as a swotter on scholarship at a second-rate boarding school. This motive really consists...
- hyko 6y agoApple’s defence is IANAG (I am not a government). That’s fine, but it works both ways: we must remember when observing their marketing campaigns that buying nice things will not and cannot create a democratic and liberal world order.
- deathgrips 6y agoApple is not a government? That's fine. Let the government regulate them and break them up.
- throw443243 6y agoAs long as it’s legal.
- Sargos 6y agoSlavery was legal. Everything Belarus is doing is also legal.
- amelius 6y agoThey regulate their walled garden like a government though.
- cryptica 6y agoIf Apple starts messing with politics, then politics has to start messing with Apple. Break up Apple. Seize their assets.
- jarym 6y ago> Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Shame on Apple really. Shame on them for creating a walled garden that has become a liability for multiple parties even those unconnected to the iOS ecosystem. “Irrelevant” could turn into the mother of all class action lawsuits.
- dannyw 6y agoClass action lawsuits are dead since binding arbitration agreements.
- unnouinceput 6y agoApple is irrelevant in former communist countries, Android is king here. So yeah, Telegram can shut down those channels for iOS, leave them be for Android. It will change nothing.
- _RPL5_ 6y agoHere is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data on the Internet without the consent of these persons, as well as content aimed at specific people in accordance with the rules of the App Store. This refers to the efforts of the Belorussian opposition to 'unmask' members of the riot police by posting their personal details online. Without going into the moral weeds, from the terms-of-service point of view that's basically griefing, no? So this is a very curious quandary Apple finds itself in. Let's assume that griefing Belorussian law enforcement is a good thing. But at the same time griefing people (regardless of whether they are bad/good/chaotic neutral) is against the TOS. So what do you do if you are Apple? [0] https://tjournal.ru/tech/221326-apple-zayavila-chto-ne-trebovala-udalit-telegram-kanaly-i-rasskazala-o-sodeystvii-so-storony-durova https://tjournal.ru/tech/221326-apple-zayavila-chto-ne-trebo...
- boudin 6y agoThis seems to match this post, where apple is asking to remove telegram groups used to de-anonymize law enforcement members. Apple could do something really simple if they wanted to not interfeer with how people organize their fight: allow to install apps outside of the app store. This would force law enforcement to deal with Telegram directly rather than being able to take advantage of apple's own authoritarian way to run its platform. Now it's a question of what's apple highest priority, people freedom or profit.
- shoulderfake 6y agoWe all know the answer to that
- antris 6y agoIt doesn't change the legal threats of the Belarus government, though. It can still compel Apple to ban self-installs.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Ceezy 6y agoSeems like Apple only asks to delete specific messages and not the channel itself. Mind you RT is obviously not 100 credible. But this story lack sources anyway. https://www.rt.com/russia/503030-apple-telegram-delete-channels-belarus/ https://www.rt.com/russia/503030-apple-telegram-delete-chann...
- tw04 6y agoImagine Apple demanding telegram remove data providing personal information about the nazi officers running Auschwitz... these are government employees caught Assaulting citizens while masked and refusing to identify themselves. They lost all right to privacy when they decided to support the current attempted dictatorial takeover.
- Kelamir 6y agoThere's the petition "Asking Apple to not block Telegram channels of Belarusian peaceful protest" https://www.change.org/p/apple-asking-apple-to-not-block-telegram-channels-of-belarusian-peaceful-protest https://www.change.org/p/apple-asking-apple-to-not-block-tel... Yesterday's discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24722130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24722130
- newscracker 6y agoTangentially, I’ve always wondered if the change.org petitions work and if they even reach the people who they’re addressed to in a way that the petition is seen.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y agoWhenever I was in a discussion on HN with Apple fanboys, who were saying how happy they are with no sideloading of apps on iOS, I was telling them to imagine if Apple will remove the app they need for some reason, like request from an authoritarian regime. In the future I'll be pointing not only to unavailability of chat apps in China, but also to this. Apple monopoly on iOS platform must be broken, and Apple should be forced to allow third party appstores and third party push notifications.
- pbasista 6y ago> Apple should be forced to I think that the authorities cannot be expected to solve every problem in society there is. A better approach may be to educate people about the alternatives. What Apple primarily wants, in my opinion, is to keep their users and their profits. Currently, it seems like they can take down apps for almost any reason, restrict independent repair of their devices by making the replacement parts and chips unavailable, force many simple-to-repair devices to be recycled instead of repaired, take huge cuts from the in-app purchase prices and more, with little to no impact on their sales or number of users. I am wondering why is that the case. But apparently, most people do not care.
- tzs 6y agoThat won't work, because governments that want to restrict what apps their citizens use will make a law that phones in that country must not allow sideloading. The phone makers will either have to comply or leave that country. Either way, the people in that country do not get the app.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y agoFalse, that currently works with Android. Even in China you can still sideload any banned app and use it with VPN.
- nmstoker 6y agoIt seems a surprise Apple and Telegram can't find a better compromise from a global perspective. Bear in mind they're being pushed around by a country of just 9.5m people.
- cageface 6y agoThis feels like a step beyond the control Apple has exercised over apps previously. Threatening your access to the app store because they don't like the way you're censoring user generated content is beyond the pale and should finally bring regulators down like a ten ton hammer on them. Once again we are reminded that power inevitably corrupts and must have limits. What a sad state to find Steve's scrappy underdog company in.
- brainless 6y ago"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" Make no mistake, Apple is a very powerful company. I have admired this company as an aspiring kid growing up in a city in India. It had stories, dreamy stories, things I believed in. Now it's all money and absolute control. The very things I consider harmful to society. This is no longer that Apple. And, yes 1984.
- redwood 6y agoThis makes me sick to my stomach. My wife just got her third Apple product. We've been happy customers. I've been following the news out of Belarus even if there isn't much hope at least the world has been witnessing. How dare they. This is just appalling.
- marketingPro 6y agoI've been following Apple's outward policy and none of this is remotely surprising. They have used proprietary devices, banned apps, and worked with governments against their customers. I can only suggest that either you or your wife takes a marketing class to defend yourself from Apple and other companies.
- drummer 6y agoApple has lost its way. The Apple of today is far from what it originally was, pro freedom and anti authoritarianism. They turned into the monsters they set out to fight.
- noisem4ker 6y agoWhen were they actually "pro freedom and anti authoritarianism", outside of their marketing pitch?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- newscracker 6y agoThe App Store is unraveling! What has Apple done on Facebook or Twitter? Is the matter that those platforms have some kind of content moderation that answers to governments and Telegram does not (so Apple becomes an intermediary)? With all the talk about how Apple cares about human rights, the CEO and senior management seem to be there as bystanders.
- aero-glide 6y agoWe need diversity in App stores. I installed F-droid for android, has almost all the apps I need. Provide the users with choices! You own the hardware, not the company!
- dannyw 6y agoDiversity in app stores are good, but keep in mind F-droid chose to censor Gab.
- aero-glide 6y agoF droid has an easy way to add custom repos though
- dannyw 6y agoFacebook gets special treatment because if iPhones don’t have Fb, Instagram and WhatsApp, people stop buying iPhones. Case in point: digital fundraisers on Facebook are not subject to Apple’s 30% tax, via a special COVID exemption until the end of the year.
- sradman 6y agoThe source of the information is Telegram founder Pavel Durov [1] who posted on the Telegram platform [2] [3] (links via ffpip). This is part of the 2020 Belarusian Protests [4]. Three Telegram accounts, dedicated to doxing police officers associated with the authoritarian regime of Alexander Lukashenko, have been requested to be taken down by Apple. Durov is politically libertarian and is in self-imposed exile after his own struggle with the regime in his Russian homeland. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov [2] https://t.me/durov/135 https://t.me/durov/135 [3] https://t.me/durov/136 https://t.me/durov/136 [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Belarusian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Belarusian_protests
- jyriand 6y agoNever thought a news site can manage to place so many ads on my small iPhone screen. It's unreadable. Do you know what is the original source for this?
- nickpp 6y agoSo it was fine when Apple banned Infowars but now it’s different? This is exactly what those free speech advocates meant when talking about slippery slopes: you either support free speech or censure. There is no middle ground. Disclaimer: I think Infowars is pure, evil sh*t.
- dannyw 6y agoExactly. I don’t care if it’s Infowars, if it’s Gab, or if it’s HK protests, or if it’s Belarus protests. App stores must not be political, even if the politics agree with you.
- yipbub 6y agoOne difference is that that was an app they banned, while I think that was still bad, it's still an order or two of magnitude better. In this case, they're policing user generated content on a platform. The equivalent would be if they asked telegram to block infowars channels, or asked VPN providers to block the infowars website. I had literally just started to defend/advocate-for apple after trash talking it for a while, but clearly I was extremely wrong.
- batrat 6y agoI want what this guy is smoking because I want to believe the government is using chemicals to turn people and frogs gay.
- gonational 6y ago“A 2002 study by Tyrone Hayes, of the University of California, Berkeley, found that exposure caused male tadpoles to turn into hermaphrodites” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrazine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrazine A later study, funded by Syngenta itself, essentially said “nothing to see here, move along”.
- partyboat1586 6y agoEndocrine disruptors are a real thing[0]. They come from many kinds of pollution. Probably not intentional but they are there. Endocrine disruptors can cause changes in sexual behaviours and expression of primary and secondary sexual characteristics in animals (including humans). Not exactly the same thing but this is the grain of truth in what seems like an entirely absurd idea. [0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10680769/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10680769/
- jayp1418 6y agoSeriously use librem 5 or pinephones
- jacquesm 6y agoAnd this is why walled gardens are structurally wrong. As soon as you have one you take implicit responsibility for what goes on in there and you will be forced to take sides in large scale disputes. What serves the people of Belarus at the moment (and I know some people on the ground there that have had terrible things done to them at the hands of the governments goons) does not serve Apple because their terms of service did not in any way foresee the kind of situation that Belarus finds itself in. As soon as you step in to an argument like that you may find that your precious principles are going to be tested like they have never been tested before. And Apple just came up wanting, the Belarus authorities are a criminal bunch and do not deserve the protections normally afforded to individuals acting on behalf of the state. They are facing off with the population from the comfort of anonymity, beat them, rape them and sometimes even kill them. Having them identified makes them at least moderately responsible for their actions, and Apple has absolutely no business interfering in this.
- rzwitserloot 6y agoThis keeps being posted and keeps disappearing, so I'm going to not link to it, but when you search around, a post on telegram by Pavel Durov explains that apple has in fact made 2 demands: Take down the private information __and__ in addition to that, do so silently: Do not replace it with a notice explaining which part of apple's guidelines were breached, because that would be 'irrelevant' info. Apparently, whilst the quandary is real, apple is either living on a different planet than I am, or doesn't care, and decided to pepper in something that the vast majority (I would assume) find distasteful 1984 stuff.
- class4behavior 6y agoHere's Durov's response: ``` Apple released a statement saying they didn't want us to take down the 3 channels run by the Belarusian protestors, but just specific posts "disclosing personal information." This sly wording ignores the fact that channels like @karatelibelarusi and @belarusassholes consist entirely of personal information of violent oppressors and those who helped rig the elections – because that is why those channels exist. By hiding their demands with vague language, Apple is trying to avoid the responsibility of enforcing their own rules. It is understandable: according to this poll, over 94% of Belarusian users think the channels that made Apple worry should be left alone. Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Similarly, when Facebook wanted to inform its users that 30% of the fees users were paying for online events went to Apple, Apple didn’t let Facebook do it saying this information was (once more) “irrelevant”. I strongly disagree with Apple’s definition of “irrelevant”. I think the reason certain content was censored or why the price is 30% higher is the opposite of irrelevant. Apple has the right to be greedy and formalistic (or maybe not – that’s something for the courts and regulators to decide). But it’s time Apple learned to assume responsibility for their policy instead of trying to hide it from users – they deserve to know. ``` https://t.me/s/durov/136 https://t.me/s/durov/136
- WilTimSon 6y ago
- yyyk 6y agoThe amazing thing, if I'm reading this right, is that this is global censorship. That is, no iOS user in the world will be able to read these channels. Using the App Store, Apple is making the Belarus' dictatorship's censorship apply even in democracies.
- ericmay 6y agoThere sure do seem to be a lot of attacks on “centralized app stores” these days. Wonder who is standing to gain from this. Interesting how it only came about so heavily after the US targeted Huawei... But what do I know
- DoingIsLearning 6y agoIf protestors were to prove that the loss of access to the information from these channels lead to their imprisonment and subsequent torture, could they take Apple to the ICC in the Hague, for crimes against Humanity?
- y04nn 6y agoThere is something terribly wrong here. Imagine Microsoft asking Facebook to block access to some Facebook groups for Windows/IE users. Yes Telegram is on the AppStore distributed by Apple, but it's a free app, just a enhanced web app. Apple wants to have control on what you know, what you see, what you think. I'm not going to buy an Apple product any time soon, despite the hardware and software being the best you can get.
- eecc 6y agoNo. Imagine a pro-Trump alt-right group identifying participants to BLM marches and sharing their names and addresses with their gun-toting mouth-frothing associated. Would you be surprised if it devolved into threats, intimidations and people getting shot?
- hyperdimension 6y ago> gun-toting mouth-frothing associated I'd like to plea, not specifically to you but more in general: if each of us can tone down the rhetoric, even a tiny bit, we might become able to relate to each other just slightly more and not to add more weight to the huge wedge of partisonship that divides everyone from their neighbor.
- eecc 6y agoHold on... it’s not quite as clear-cut as the Apple-haters that joyously jumped in put it. These channels are not about a platform for freedom of speech and rallying for peaceful demonstrations. Nope. It’s about exposing PII of public officials; names and home addresses? Take pause to appreciate the possible consequences of this. What could possibly go wrong? Now I agree that Belarus officials are complicit or actively engaging in violations of personal freedom, violence and persecution. But calling out individuals with the not-so-subtle encouragement for personal confrontation and violent retribution is illegal and frowned upon in all democratic societies.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- throwaway4715 6y ago"But it isn't nice to doxx the killers" is not the argument I was expecting.
- Kelamir 6y agoQuoting https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/17/the-only-way-to-stop-violence-why-protesters-are-unmasking-belarus-police https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/17/the-only-way-t... : “The only way to stop violence is to pull off the masks, in both the literal and metaphorical sense. An officer who is no longer anonymous will think twice before he grabs, beats or kidnaps someone,"
- eecc 6y agoThat’s true, and I’m all for mandatory identification badges when doing crowd control, but you have to realize the context in which the identity is revealed: in a democratic country it’s meant as a mechanism to correct violent (hopefully) outliers. But unmasking violent agents of a violent state won’t do anything except provide the excuse to repress even harder... you’ll just end up with riot police firing live ammo (a bit like in the US, where police will always claim the victim appeared to reach for a weapon before they start hailing bullets.) It’s simple power game: if you challenge a bully that is much stronger than you, you will be crushed. If you really want to make a dent, you collect the evidence and plea for help from a stronger one. (EU, UN, ICJ...) Unless the objective is to provoke a violent reaction and use the bruises to mobilize help in sympathy (problem is who “gets to suffer the bruise”... you, or a random protestor caught in a retaliatory strike)
- malaya_zemlya 6y agofwiw Apple also bans any 18+ channels on iOS and MacOS, so Apple's censorship of Telegram is not a new development.
- mensetmanusman 6y agoWhat drives decision makers to want an extra million dollars at the expense of the already-poor? You would think Apple would be content with its billions and could care less whether authoritarians are mad it them because protesters are evading abuse in prisons.
- latexr 6y agoTim Cook’s twitter bio[1] has the following: > “Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'” - MLK Considering this and the HKmap.live[2] situations, I’d say that in his case the answer to that question is “not much”. [1]: https://twitter.com/tim_cook https://twitter.com/tim_cook [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKmap.live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKmap.live
- eplanit 6y agoMaybe Tim Cook uses that quote to signal virtue and gain popularity for his own and the company brand. Haven't Apple ads used MLK before?
- makeworld 6y agoI think that's exactly what latexr is pointing out.
- chiphack 6y ago... and he's not the only one! Luckily he makes his deception so painfully obvious.
- tolbish 6y agoUsing MLK is particularly Machiavellian since it gives the impression that the leader of one of the largest corporations in the world primarily selling luxury goods, is meekly fighting for the little guy and the underserved.
- m3kw9 6y agoSure that country can force Apple to comply with local laws. That’s how it works now.
- kodablah 6y agoApple can also choose to challenge it, if not legally there then at least in the court of public opinion as they have done for US government requests. The reason they haven't is either fear of speaking out or that they don't disagree much with the requests. Either way, their silence is a deafening description of their principles.
- temptemptemp111 6y agoRight, so the globalists who run Apple are promoting anonymous police forces in Belarus. Amazing how the sheeple still can't see it...
- stevespang 6y agoDoes Apple even have a presence in Belorussia ? If so, it's apparent Apple choose the side of a tyrant/dictator/censorship over free speech . . . Tim Cook should be shamed and humiliated on all social media.
- MrXOR 6y agoApple bans RSS in China https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/30/apple-removes-two-rss-feed-readers-from-china-app-store/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/30/apple-removes-two-rss-feed...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mheiler 6y agoApple is taking sides with the oppressors. Shameful but predictable: "When it comes to hanging the capitalists they will sell us the rope." (supposedly Lenin)
- seebetter 6y agoI just want to point out that we don’t have to put up with this endless creepy corporate invasion of our lives. Eventually Apple, Google and these other behemoths will be disrupted and displaced by technology. The curve favors the individual not the corporation or the state.
- docPangloss 6y agoApple is more like a cult with totalitarian rule. Google is not too far behind. Both track your every move/conversation and share ALL your data with government agencies via the PRISM surveillance program led by the NSA (Google joined PRISM in 2009; Apple in 2012).[1] These BigTech companies/PRISM members are beyond the law because they are defacto extensions of Big Brother Surveillance. If Apple were to make a PRISM break from membership, then it would likely receive lawsuits for tax evasion and monopoly behavior (antitrust). Understand the game? Consider This About Apple: • Apple uses offshore quasi-indentured-servant labor to bypass labor- and wage-laws; • The rotten fruit evades the spirit of taxation by setting up shell companies in Ireland, tiny islands, Nevada, etc. to hoard billions of un-taxed dollars in these vehicles; • The BigTech Global Company uses monopoly-like power to control its users behavior and even inserts forms of malware to make the OS perform slower and/or drain the battery to encourage users to upgrade their phone! . . . >> Remember, freedom (Liberty) requires continual effort lest one becomes enslaved. Google, to its credit, still provides open source software of the Android OS for anyone to port and modify. It’s called Android Open Source Project (AOSP). Anyone who makes a modest effort can install AOSP on a non-apple device – even many older phones. There are a myriad of open-source and partial open-source custom ROMs that are often built using AOSP, but not exclusively – Ubuntu Touch, Replicant, Resurrection Remix, PureOS, LineageOS, TizenOS, ParanoidAndroid, KaiOS, PostmarketOS, etc.[2] One may simply flash a custom ROM on their used or new non-Apple device. Take 30 minutes to read instructions on any number of tech forums such as xda-developers.com, for one example. What you will realize is stable custom ROMS are more secure than native stock OS by Apple and Google. And, one may modify the custom ROMS as any lover of freedom chooses. There are also devices coming to market that have kill switches that disable cellular tracking by PRISM, etc.: Purism’s Librem 5, Pine64's PinePhone, OpenPandora’s DragonBox, etc. And, these organizations are honorable and community-driven, either partly or entirely. So, just because a lot of people won’t make the tiny effort to liberate themselves from evil (and continue to justify a “walled garden” implemented by said evil rotten fruit), doesn’t mean the small number of people who choose liberty over security should be sacrificed at the alter of evil. No laws or regulations are necessary. Vote with your dollars and actions. Wake the Flock Up, People! [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_custom_Android_distributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_custom_Android_distrib...
- tripzilch 6y agoWho the f--- Apple thinks they are to decide this for the people in Belarus??
- polote 6y agoWhat's interesting here, early today the most upvoted comments where very negative towards Apple, and now that the US people have woken up, the most upvoted comments are closer to have a neutral tone. Actually I was surprised this morning to see Apple criticized on HN (40% of HN visitors use Apple devices, Windows 21 %, Linux 8% and Android 15% ) as it is rarely the case, the explanation is simple, Apple fanboys were sleeping
- rudewater 6y agoApple fanboys or bots/troll farms? I'm genuinely concerned about how many of these comments are not made by real people.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- projectileboy 6y agoEmployees, how do you feel about this? This isn’t “iTunes is still hard to use”, this is helping to shut down people who are fighting against fascism.
- zepto 6y agoWhy doesn’t telegram just ignore the request? Saying “we don’t feel like we have much choice” is a cop out. For those that say Apple is morally compromised for collaborating with the oppressors, why is the same not true for Telegram complying with Apple (the oppressor in this case)? Yes, Apple could remove Telegram from the store in Belarus, but that would definitely be a disproportionate response, and would have much more of an impact on Apple.
- lern_too_spel 6y agoExactly. I doubt Apple would go so far as removing Telegram from the phones of people who already have it, and people who want it after Telegram has been blocked can just get an Android phone.
- SubiculumCode 6y agoTwo stories here, and one is definitely about modern monopolies.
- zelon88 6y agoI don't get why American companies seem to regularly align themselves with authority like this. Apple has more yearly profits than the GDP of Belarus. Why does Apple play by the rules of Belarus. Honestly, if I had the power and influence of Apple I'd run my business in these third world sections of the world just like I run them in America. Arguably Apple has more weight on people in these regions than local governments do. Stand up and do what's right. You're an American company doing the bidding of a corrupt organization that's not even as big as you are. Grow a pair.
- hu3 6y agoThis specific censorship probably has the weight if Russia behind it. Not just Belarus.
- zelon88 6y agoStill play hard ball. Apple built the largest corporate entity on Earth guided by capitalism and the rule and spirit of American law. In the absence of local rule of law, or local laws which are incompatible with the American moral outlook on human rights and civil liberties I would instruct my company to observe American laws. If Iran doesn't like that let Iran figure out a way to stop me locally. I am under no pressure to implement immoral company policies to support something which ultimately goes against the system which enabled my business to thrive. Apple is big enough to completely disregard an authoritarian regimes wishes and get away with it. Imagine a world where the big tech companies actually has morals that they upheld. The cost of doing business in China is they're going to steal your proprietary tech. Everyone accepts that cost and still does business with China. Imagine if American companies enforced human rights with the same viritol. The world would be positively incentivized to adopt legitimate democracy or fall by the technological wayside.
- hexbinencoded 6y agoDon't use corporate apps and platforms for popular movements. They make the rules and they continue their inverted totalitarian takeover of public commons when more people depend on them for civic activities. Furthermore, they cooperate with intelligence services. It's too big of a risk to depend on them. And, they used craptacular Telegram instead of Signal. Dumb.
- arielm 6y agoInteresting to note - downloads from the App Store are much lower than from Google Play. In belarus it’s about 3 to 1. Globally it’s about 10 to 1. This isn’t to say any of this is good, but I wonder if Telegram can behave differently by platform (ex. A blacklist of channels on iOS).
- salimmadjd 6y agoOT - Apple should have removed Telegram months ago. Telegram has been used to share some very bad COVID disinformation. My father who is older and lives in Iran shared with me this video about how to treat COVID. It was produced really nicely in the Farsi (Persian) language. Anyone who has ever read the book "Made to Stick" (highly recommended) would immediately that this video was designed to be a viral disinformation campaign. The video started so credibility talking about the virus, the family of virus it belongs to, it talked about genetics similarities, etc. All seem very credible. Then it comes the disinformation gotcha: To defeat COVID (with some beautiful inside the lungs animation ) talking about alveoli and how they function, when you are indoor you need to laugh deeply and very hard. This laughing hard gets rid of the virus, etc. etc. Great idea, right? Seems like a way to exacerbate the spread of a deadly virus. To me the quality of video made me think it was probably produce by a state or entity working for a state with budget. If that is so I considered this incident as one of the first examples of using disinformation to commit genocide. The problem with Telegram team working from the United Arab Emirates, it's unclear to me if it's being used to weaponize disinformation for evil means or not. From what I have seen, I believe, Telegram is being misused and it needs to be removed from the App Store.
- aero-glide 6y agoYou can access disinformation through Safari. Should Safari be removed?
- salimmadjd 6y agoComparing Safari with Telegram makes no sense. As they are so different in so many ways.
- hu3 6y agoYou can access disinformation through any group chat app. Should all be removed?
- salimmadjd 6y ago
- neiman 6y agoWhile I'm against doxing, what right does Apple have to tell Telegram what to do?
- Ihfhcub 6y agoIt's not doxing if they are state sponsored criminals. That is a horrible misuse of the term. You do not remove evidence of criminals indentity. That's a crime in itself. You are complicit in the crime by coving it up
- angry_octet 6y agoAstounded that Apple is choosing to flush their privacy / human rights cred globally down the shitter over the slight possibility of losing market share in the tiny economy of Belarus...
- aembleton 6y agoMaybe they risk losing access to the Russian Market too
- angry_octet 6y agoThe Russian market is still small. And the Russians would be unlikely to cut themselves off from the best tech when people can just use it on Android anyway. It's an extremely hollow threat. As Russians might say "назло бабушке отморожу уши" -- spiting my grandmother by getting frostbitten ears (from not wearing your hat).
- lukejduncan 6y agoWhy does an App Store have any say in the content of an online community? I’m sure there is plenty of content on Reddit that Cupertino censors may not like. Can / do they apply similar pressures to other social media companies with iOS apps?
- tus88 6y agoWTF this is bad.
- dikaio 6y agoWe need a better OS, similar to Ubuntu and Firefox models... an OS developed and maintained by the community that won’t do what every the government asks them to do because it’s in the governments or corporations best interest and not the people’s. I often hear the phrase “we are many” but many means nothing if you use tools that the people in control, control.
- rubyist5eva 6y agoI wonder what side of the American Revolution or even the American Civil War that Apple would be on if it were taking place today..
- esolyt 6y agoYou won't see this article on "tech journalism" websites. They will instead talk about how the upcoming iPhone 12 will be the best iPhone yet.
- golemiprague 6y agoI think the solution should be to make a web interface to the app and let apple users use it instead of the app itself, something similiar to discord. This way what apple are going to do? ban Safari?
- swiley 6y agoIt is not possible to communicate on iOS without risk of being censored or attacked. Using these platforms is responsible, if it doesn't affect you it will affect vulnerable people.
- fimdomeio 6y agoThe question is who is responsible for inciting violence? The people that post the messages, telegram for allowing people using their platform to post some messages, or apple for allowing an app to allow it's users to post a message. Why does apple have anything to say in this matter. It sounds crazy to me. Or maybe, who knows, the violence is being caused by an opressive regime. Since Apple feels it as the right to interveen is it also taking actions agains the Belarus government? Apple please let me know to which mail should I start sending the mail messages I send from my macbook, so I can get your approval.
- hamiltont 6y agoRegardless of your opinion on whether it's acceptable, given what is happening in Belarus, that the protestors are working to identify riot police as a way to "fight back"....it's quite interesting (to me at least) that Apple is trying to direct the actions of an app developer after users have already installed that application. Is Apple now the arbitrator of "what computations are allowable on the device you purchased"?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- 5dr6xurxrxrx 6y agoUggifig8g8t
- dc1rjj 6y agoWell, don't buy Apple...
- Nginx487 6y agoExposing personal data surely may violate Apple's TOS. However, obeying the law make sense only in the system, playing by fair rules. If the system is unfair, being honest, if the system is a crazy totalitarian regime, disobeying the law is one of ways to contain it. To understand the situation in Belarus by example, imagine former Nazi concentration camp guards, protesting against exposing their identities, because Israeli security forces may come after them. Crazy analogy you would say, but Belarusian people call their police and KGB Nazis.
- urza 6y agoI know I am two days late but anyway, if anyone is not familiar with what is going on in Belarus, this reporter is doing superb job on twitter: https://twitter.com/franakviacorka https://twitter.com/franakviacorka