56 ms·

Secret gyms and the economics of prohibition

• ehnto 6y ago
  That's fascinating, and I had wondered if it were happening. I guess I was right. Due to the timing of the last 6 months or so, I haven't been making it to the gym as much. I started focussing more on mountain biking, I broke my hand, then my clavicle, traveled to Japan, and then the pandemic showed up. With all this more focused time during lockdown, I was tempted to buy my own equipment and toyed with the idea of letting some friends come use it, it got me thinking about the legalities and liabilities of that kind of thing. If we go back into lockdown, I'll definitely be buying my own equipment. I do powerlifting, so bodyweight and a few dumbells don't really cut it.
  • asdff 6y ago
    There is a suprising amount of work you can do with resistance bands. That used to be the powerlifting equipment of choice before dumbbells and barbells became fashionable in the bodybuilding community a century ago. You can hit everything olympic lifting hits. Great reading here, along with tons of examples of workouts and movements: https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-Training-2.pdf https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-Traini...
• ww520 6y ago
  I can certainly understand people’s need to continue their exercise routine. This is for their physical and mental health. As long as they keep the precaution in place, whip down and clean up and social distancing. For me I’ve canceled the gym membership and taking up biking. It has been working out great. Discovered a lot more biking trials around the area. Got plenty of sua shine and vitamin D along the way.
• reaperducer 6y ago
  It's not just gyms. It's underground bars, hair salons, hot stone yoga joints, and all kinds of things. While the hair salons were closed, my wife's hairdresser was texting her every three days to get her into her underground makeshift totally illegal hair place. And slightly realated, quarantines don't work when people aren't actually quarantined. There was an article in the newspaper last week or the week before about all the people from California driving into Nevada to get their hair done. Just what the world needs: People who make poor health decision driving around the country.
  • sushshshsh 6y ago
    "Totally illegal underground makeshift hair place" I'm confused, if the participants wear a mask, will the virus be transmitted or not?
    • moftz 6y ago
      Masks aren't 100% effective so being in close contact with someone for such a long time (a haircut for women can take much longer than a typical trim for men) carries a high risk of transmission from an asymptomatic carrier.
      • muffinman26 6y ago
        I find this to be one of the funniest supposed differences between genders. I'm trans male, so I've gotten both female and male haircuts. Female haircuts generally took much less time. Put the hair in a ponytail, one snip, tidy up a little. Even a buzz cut takes a little bit longer. It's also much easier to cut long hair yourself than short hair, and people with long hair can go much longer between hair cuts. It took me a while to realize that men's haircut needs to be cut every 2-3 months instead of the once or maybe twice a year I was used to. Hair dying definitely takes longer, but it seems that can be done at home easily as well.
        • Karrot_Kream 6y ago
          Thanks for voicing this! I've been cutting hair as a hobby for years (it's funny, I got questioned a lot why I felt it was worth cutting my own hair and suddenly with the onset of the pandemic a lot of friends of mine are much more interested in the hobby), and the number of folks that think female haircuts are more involved/difficult is astounding. Unless long hair is very overgrown and needs to be relayered, it's generally really simple to trim it. Men's haircuts are short enough that small mistakes are glaringly obvious, and the haircuts need regular maintenance. My partner had some trepidation when I first cut her hair, but since then she's recommended me to her friends (well, pre-pandemic at least). She did short hair for a while and found the constant maintenance to be a huge pain.
• A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  I can't help but chuckle. Soon mob will be running speak-easy gym you will need password to get in. Feds will start running sting operations. Fat Americans will become heroes of the pandemic.
  • ta17711771 6y ago
    70%+ of population is a hero!
• jcomis 6y ago
  While trying to buy workout equipment off craig's list I was solicited twice to join "speakeasy" gyms. They had ads for a bunch of gear and when I inquired they sent me a detailed response on working out in their private gym. One was a large neighborhood garage that offered solo time by the hour, one was a shutdown normal gym. Pretty expensive too!
  • three_seagrass 6y ago
    >Pretty expensive too! Dumbbells are going for > $2-3/lb on various websites right now, which is insane. Adjustable dumbbells are going for > $10/lb, which is over twice their usual sticker price. Gyms could lease out their equipment right now and make a killing.
    • 52-6F-62 6y ago
      > Gyms could lease out their equipment right now and make a killing. Many have done just that here in Toronto. The equipment went very fast, though.
      • perardi 6y ago
        I sought out adjustable dumbbells for a month. Ridiculous prices on Kijiji, and full of scams. Thankfully I eventually found a place out in Brampton that was welding their own, for relatively reasonable prices. (And thankfully my gym is now open. Until we get a second wave and it shuts down again.)
        • 52-6F-62 6y ago
          Damn. Making weights would have been good business! I have some resistance bands and used to use my buildings gym but they made the process very convoluted since reopening. And with max time limits of 30 minutes each and only 10 visits a month. That said I was very sick recently and lost a lot of muscle mass and weight so I’m barely getting back to exercising now anyway.
  • sharadov 6y ago
• have_faith 6y ago
  > Her work makes it hard for her to talk to reporters, so we're not using her last name Surely if you feel it necessary to omit someones last name you should err on the side of caution and omit their first name too? A fist name narrows a search down significantly.
  • dfxm12 6y ago
    How do you know they gave her real first name?
    • slg 6y ago
      I didn't attend J-school, but that sounds like a questionable practice ethically. A person has a right to be anonymous, but it should be noted they are anonymous. Making up a name for someone without disclosing that fact is questionable.
      • gowld 6y ago
        Using their first name to pretend they are both anonymous and non-anonymous is worse than both endpoints of spectrum.
        • slg 6y ago
          It is ethical and expected for a journalist to obscure facts to protect their sources. It is unethical for a journalist to fabricate facts to protect their sources. Also as someone with experience being anonymously quoted by journalist before, it seems to be standard practice for the journalist to defer any decisions on how they would like to be referred to the source. Odds are Evelyn is the one who decided to just go by Evelyn. She probably doesn't care too much about absolute anonymity, but she also wants plausible deniability.
    • Ansil849 6y ago
      Owing to the fact that they said they are omitting her surname but said nothing about changing her first name.
• mbosch 6y ago
  I started toying around with the idea of building something out for a gym sharing idea. https://gymlender.com https://gymlender.com
  • abeppu 6y ago
    Related, I really don't understand why gyms in my city haven't turned to renting out their equipment. I know people that bought dumbbells, over paid, and picked from really limited inventory. Meanwhile, the gym a block away has a giant pile of weights not being used, and has basically no revenue right now.
    • zelly 6y ago
      They won't make enough on rentals to break even on the amount that people steal and never return. A single 45 lb plate costs $60-$100 with covid pricing.
    • asdff 6y ago
      just what we need, one guy hogging the 30lb dumbbells all pandemic
• dfxm12 6y ago
  I don't get it. Unless you're training for a very specific purpose (like an MMA fight or football season), why do you need specific indoor gym equipment? Shelter in place orders are largely lifted, so you can workout outside: run, do pull ups on a tree branch, ride a bike, lift a heavy stone, do an outdoor yoga class, etc. Hell, you only need maybe a 6' x 6' area for a perfectly effective body weight routine, even inside. I get that some of this can be related to body dysmorphia, but that's probably a tiny corner case. Is it the thrill of doing something "illegal"/dangerous? Is it more denial about the impact of COVID? Hustlers trying to capitalize on a crisis? Edit: based on some of the replies, it looks like it boils down to a sense of entitlement: people wanting to stick to their routines without a care of putting others at risk.
  • jdminhbg 6y ago
    > Edit: based on some of the replies, it looks like it boils down to a sense of entitlement: people wanting to stick to their routines without a care of putting others at risk. You asked why people would want specific equipment. You didn't ask whether the tradeoffs involved are worth it. The replies here mostly answer the question you asked, not the one you're pivoting to.
  • waihtis 6y ago
    I remember reading a twitter quote about someone who felt their workouts "didn't matter" if they didn't have their GPS tracker with them on the workout. Gym, as in the physical location, is also very much part of the "fitness habit". It doesn't feel the same doing it outside by yourself.
  • matz1 6y ago
    Some sports can only be done indoor. Nothing to do with body dysmorphia or doing something "illegal" but based on the fact that covid is not as severe that warrant stopping recreational activity. Is simply risk vs benefit.
  • showdeadtest 6y ago
    Some people enjoy lifting weights to get stronger. It is a hobby.
• adolph 6y ago
  Unlike actual prohibition, the social agreement behind "lockdowns" is subject to time contingencies. The activities considered "essential" grow as time passes. While there are nominal categories of "essential" defined by community/political leaders, that contract depends on agreement. Since each person's conception of "essential" is different, as time passes "essential" grows exponentially instead of linearly.
  • dimitrios1 6y ago
    > the social agreement behind "lockdowns" is subject to time contingencies. like "15 days to slow the spread"?
    • adolph 6y ago
      Yes, say for example few people have 2 weeks of food in their house. That makes the grocery store "essential" during a 15 day period. If the grocery store is essential for the 15 day period then all the activity that goes behind a working grocery store within a 15 day period is essential.
  • reaperducer 6y ago
    Since each person's conception of "essential" is different There was someone on WGN-TV a few weeks ago lamenting that it was insulting for all of the hairdressers and manicurists and yoga instructors to be called "non-essential." I thought it was more insulting for that person to value the work of hairdressers and manicurists and yoga instructors on an equal basis with firefighters, doctors, paramedics, and actual real "essential" workers. Nobody calls a holistic lifestyle consultant to run into a burning building to save a baby.
    • stagger87 6y ago
      Why do essential workers all have to be valued on an equal basis as firefighters, doctors, etc? How are you measuring value?
      • 6y ago
• Ansil849 6y ago
  This seems incredibly dangerous. Are the speakeasy gyms requiring negative COVID tests? Are they doing temperature screenings upon entry? How diligently are they sanitizing equipment? How well ventilated are these various areas? Why are people ignoring all of these risks, what kind of threat model do they have?
  • AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    It is very easy for people to casually ignore risk when mitigating it is inconvenient if they have no direct experience with the negative results.
  • gambiting 6y ago
    >> what kind of threat model do they have? The exact same one - "it won't happen to me". I mean, is it really that surprising? I see this all the time everywhere.
  • hammock 6y ago
    You don't have to go if you don't want to. Surely your indignation would be better directed at employers, schools and others who are requiring in-person attendance.
    • Ansil849 6y ago
      > You don't have to go if you don't want to. Are you implying that the people going to these speakeasy gyms are then self-quarantining and not interacting with people who did not go to the gym? Because if not, then this is a non sequitur of a response. > Surely your indignation would be better directed at employers, schools and others who are requiring in-person attendance. Except OP is not about employers, schools and others.
      • hammock 6y ago
        Interacting with other people is a two-way street. If you are afraid someone across from you might have been to one of these gyms, then walk away from them.
• DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Did the "shutdown normal gym" mean that patrons would be violating whatever policies forced the gym to shutdown in the first place? If so, that really bothers me. Any excess contagion would endanger everyone, not just the gym users. Please consider reporting the details to the appropriate authorities. EDIT: If someone is inclined to downvote this comment, I'd be very grateful for a clarification why (comment or DM). I'm trying to address some problems in my communication style, and I can't always infer how I could have done better.
  • dublin 6y ago
    You are making the fallacious assumption that the Wuhan virus actually endangers everyone. It doesn't - we know that many groups are only minimally affected. The way to get back to normal is to get back to normal. "Fifteen days to flatten the curve" has morphed into "as long as it takes to crush the economy". We are now at the point of no return for most small businesses, without which the economy of the modern world cannot exist - so it's either open up now, or welcome the fall of civilization.
    • mauflows 6y ago
      Or you know Congress could spend some money as the fed chairman has called for
      • dublin 6y ago
        Where is that money going to come from, if we've destroyed the engine of the economy? Small business is the engine of the economy, and since they can't afford FAANG's Irish Double Dutch sandwich tax dodges, they actually pay most of the taxes. With small businesses and their employees gone and not paying taxes, there is quite simply no money to spend. History shows that you can only print your way out of such a situation for a very short time...
        • mindslight 6y ago
          Yet the printing press has had no problem running to keep interest rates low and the wall street casino bubblin'. We're getting the worst of both worlds. Many small businesses wouldn't be going bankrupt if there weren't a debt black hole expecting to consume much of their surplus via rent.
• matz1 6y ago
  Bad policies deserve to be violated. > Please consider reporting the details to the appropriate authorities No, on the contrary I'm encouraging people to go out and resume their normal activities.
  • dragosmocrii 6y ago
    This. The last couple months has done more damage than good to me. I'm that type of person who'll lose muscle quickly if stops working out for mote than 2 weeks. I also played a couple games of volleyball and tennis, and I'm so clumsy I'm embarrassed I lost control of my body. Meanwhile, thr local gyms havr silly rules to restrict people's access...
    • NullPrefix 6y ago
      You should start drinking heavy. It's more legal and essential.
      • dragosmocrii 6y ago
        Amusing how liquor stores were deemed essential service, at least here in Canada
        • ceejayoz 6y ago
          It's not amusing; it's reflective of the fact that severe alcohol withdrawal can kill, or easily put you in the ICU, which isn't great when we need ICU capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_withdrawal_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_withdrawal_syndrome > In the Western world about 15% of people have problems with alcoholism at some point in time. About half of people with alcoholism will develop withdrawal symptoms upon reducing their use, with four percent developing severe symptoms. Among those with severe symptoms up to 15% die.
          • NullPrefix 6y ago
            Reinforces my point. Heavy drinking is essential.
• dirtyid 6y ago
  Ironically, months of lockdown away from gym and weight gain has increased my risk for lethal covid outcomes. Though looking forward to cheap surplus sales.
• dqpb 6y ago
  While they’re at it, they should setup some speakeasy urgent care clinics for when they give themselves covid.
• iancmceachern 6y ago
  I saw an engineering services company I know of post a new job position for a "care coordinator" to babysit their employees kids, at work, while the employees work. My first thought was, isn't that a daycare? How is it different in the eyes of the law? Edited- spelling
  • qppo 6y ago
    Since about April I've seen a daycare go on a daily walk with the kids every morning and 3-4 adults supervising them.
    • iancmceachern 6y ago
      Here (SF), my understanding is that day care is only able to be open of they are serving essential workers.
    • kyuudou 6y ago
      Sunshine and fresh air worked with the Spanish Flu also.
  • emiliobumachar 6y ago
    I don't know about law, but it's less infectious than the normal situation in which kid's peers are from different families than parent's peers. Of course, it's much more infectious than actual isolation.
  • vharuck 6y ago
    >My first thought was, isn't that a daycare? How is it different in the eyes of the law? Childcare is one of those basic and ancient jobs that's accrued a lot of compex laws over the years. In PA, anyone caring for four or more children not related to them is required to get some sort of certification, even if they're doing it out of their house for friends for free. Home daycares aren't uncommon here. I'm not sure about the laws in your area, but my money's on that business having to apply for certification and pass inspections. They'll probably hire a certified childcare worker.
  • jpindar 6y ago
• grugagag 6y ago
  I see a lot of outdoor gyms in parks and what not. Outdoors is not only safer but also more pleasant. And if it rains a bit running through the rain will give an extra feat you don’t find in regular gyms. Ok, kidding about the rain but I prefer doing my workouts outside the gym when the weather permits. Calistenics aka exercises with the weight of your body are quite efficient and don’t make one look like an ogre
  • cowboysauce 6y ago
    >Outdoors is not only safer but also more pleasant. Speak for yourself. I live in a hot and humid place and exercising outside is incredibly unpleasant. It's 10 times worse if you're standing in direct sunlight. >Calistenics aka exercises with the weight of your body are quite efficient and don’t make one look like an ogre What if I want to look like an ogre?
    • grugagag 6y ago
      You’re an exception and you are more than welcome to join a secret gym. I was just pointing out to others that outdoors is a good option for exercising, at least during the summer. If you want to look like an ogre you probably don’t want to be seen outdoors anyways.
      • mitjak 6y ago
        i find ogres attractive, maybe don't shame people for having different preferences from you?
        • grugagag 6y ago
          People are free to do whatever they want and look however they want, I agree with that. I am not shaming anyone for striving to look like an ogre, it's their preference but I still think it is an unhealthy thing to do to your body and a fad. I have 2 friends who bulk up and are actually in a very bad shape mobility wise, their arms are so big that they can't reach arms behind their backs and stuff like that. Plus that they can lift big weights but don't have much endurance and tire easily. Sure, adding a bit of shape to your body is not a bad thing but exaggerating it doesn't lead to good outcomes
• fortran77 6y ago
  I know of one "secret gym" that's extremely well ventilated, everyone wears masks, and everyone is socially distanced. They don't do things that require spots, etc. I think it's pretty safe. Only 6 people are allowed in at one time.
• adolph 6y ago
  Once one gets past the sexist language like "swole, maskless bros," there is an interesting idea in the article that a societal risk of long duration prohibitions is the development of shadow economies and contract enforcement mechanisms. I'm surprised to see such a libertarian POV from NPR.
  • GloriousKoji 6y ago
    But it's not a an opinion or view, it's an behavioral economic fact. The same thing happened in the 1920's with prohibition, and the same thing is happening with the illegal drug trade.
  • biztos 6y ago
    Really, is every man who works out considered a "bro" now in America? That word is used six times in the article. I go to a gym with a lot of bodybuilders, and I often forget how much of the world sees them as mindless thugs. And yet among us are at least two real-estate executives, a famous death-metal singer, a handful of computer nerds, a very famous (regionally) pop singer, a former Ambassador, at least one former Olympian, and a bunch of Hollywood stars when they happened to be in town. Plus, you know, ordinary men, women, boys, and girls who like to be fit, or are trying to get fit. Some are large, some are not. The oldest is 75. Evelyn should swing by the Bay Club and do a bro count, see how that goes. Might offend a judge or two, especially if they're swole.
• f38zf5vdt 6y ago
  As a non-American in a more or less socially unified country, I am really enjoying all the responses from Americans in this thread.
• nyxtom 6y ago
  This timeline sucks
• skapadia 6y ago
  We haven't evolved to constantly evaluate our actions against things we cannot see right in front of us (in this case a virus). Nothing actually happening during this pandemic is surprising in the least.
  • pyronik19 6y ago
    You think a disease with a case fatality rate of like 0.05 (probably like 0.01 for 20-30 somethings) would actually going put evolutionary pressure on anything? These people are looking at the risks and making rational decisions that its not worth shutting down your life.
  • dredmorbius 6y ago
    "Manifestation" or "tangibility" are generally really big problems in terms of getting people to understand what they cannot immediately see, hear, touch, or smell. Or what their worldviews have not prepared rhem to see, or worse, trained them the specifically not see. This turns up in many places in technology --- bugs, design flaws, architectural errors, implicit assumptions, security issues, unintended consequences, UI affordances, algorithmic biases, data corruption, ... A typoogy of various forms of such cognitive biases would be interesting. Too small, far, distant in time, transparent, big, diffuse, etc., etc. See also Robert K. Merton's Manifest and Latent Functions.
• readingnews 6y ago
  There is a crossfit gym that I pass by every morning on the way to work. It is full, and never stopped during this pandemic. Even at 7AM, it is full of patrons. I would call the "proper authorities", but since there is a State Police car parked outside every morning, and he is in there working out, just like before the pandemic, I doubt calling anyone would do anything. Adding to the post, I read it earlier... it is really strange that people feel they have to go work out in groups. Or get together, or go to bars. I find it amazing we can not see short term sacrifice for long term gain.
  • lolbrels 6y ago
    If they are taking required precautions what is the problem? They've done this at my gym and I have continued to go throughout the "pandemic". Easy to sit on your high horse here and state your disbelief and amazement that people want to continue living their lives, why not just leave them alone? You choose how to live your life and we will choose ours. Thanks.
  • sushshshsh 6y ago
    That's because the landlord still expects rent to be due.
    • bityard 6y ago
      That's because the bank still expects the mortgage to be paid.
      • tom_ 6y ago
        Strikes me the gym and the bank could probably come to some kind of arrangement?
        • taxidump 6y ago
          I think the Landlord would feel left out if so.
• eursin 6y ago
  People are really unbelievable. Global pandemic, here we go.
• sergefaguet 6y ago
  yep, i've been going to a gym + sauna of a friend of mine the whole lockdown. this is a thing :)
• fragmede 6y ago
  Personally, I'm less concerned about gyms. People in gyms are adults and can theoretically stay 6-ft away from each other and wear a mask. I've seen high-impact classes like kick-boxing being held outside in parks for better airflow. Driving activities underground however, has well understood unintended consequences of causing violence and disregard of health rules, as we know from prohibition in the 20's and the drug war since the 70's. The uniquely American issue, is with bars and clubs being closed. In the land of big houses, everyone knows someone with a bar in their backyard or basement. Keeping bars closed now, when everyone is fed up with the social isolation (sorry, Zoom doesn't cut it) just means actual underground speakeasies serving alcohol aka house parties. Where dedicated gym rats aren't drinking alcohol at the same time they're at the gym (it hurts gainz), and are can be more responsible for their actions, people on alcohol can't. I'm not saying that to excuse drunk people's behaviors, what I'm saying is that trying to get drunk people to stay 6-ft apart and wear a mask is an exercise in futility. Since people are gonna be drinking anyway, especially during a pandemic, and a recession, and in the face of great uncertainty, and on the cusp of a presidential election, what's needed is to open the bars, but require patrons scan-in via phone app using the bluetooth-based contact tracing (PEPP-PT), or else face suspension of liquor license. By making it required at bars, you get around some of the privacy issues since those that don't want to, can just not go to bars. Using bluetooth-based tracing gets around issues of using GPS-based tracking, and also helps amplify the effectiveness of an under-funded contact tracing corps by providing a technology based solution. This is imperfect, but perfect is the enemy of the good, and even done imperfectly, contact tracing can very successfully drive Re (the local effective value calculated from a diseases' R0) down below 1, at which point the disease doesn't continue to spread and the pandemic can be controlled. For a disease like COVID-19 with an R0 of 2.5, it doesn't take too much to drive it down.
• wiseleo 6y ago
  Working out in a mask is very tough. It is a difficulty enhancement. I dance in a mask at a pace similar to jogging and that is hard enough. I wouldn't want to try to do a full workout that way. That would be the first order to get ignored. Is there a way to work out safely? Complete air replacement and surface disinfection. That can realistically only be done outdoors. As a club kid who refuses to grow up, I bring my professional club lights and a mobile DJ speaker to the park to dance with a friend. She has a much harder time coping with isolation and it helps her. It is a system for events of 50-100 people, so it is loud enough to mimic the experience. I would actually be OK with us both wearing Bluetooth headphones like my JBL BT Reflect Mini, which are robust enough to wear while dancing and doing crazy head moves, but a club speaker sounds different because of the reverb from the surrounding environment. We still wear masks despite not touching and being completely outdoors. We do not need to according to laws of physics, but not doing so would contribute to the attitude that masks are optional. They are not optional. As much as I trust my friend and she trusts me, there is no way to know with certainty we can not infect each other after a day of interaction with other people. One way to setup a safe workout would be to use the gym's parking lot and set it up with gym flooring and 10x10' canopies. Portable patio heaters would keep the person warm when warm weather ends. They are expensive, but one way to solve that would be to setup a solar array and use electric heaters. Another friend who is a Zumba instructor is hosting classes in a park's parking lot. That works for her and her students and it is safe.
  • sneak 6y ago
    > Working out in a mask is very tough. It is a difficulty enhancement. I bike 25km every day wearing a full P100 respirator, the kind with replaceable cartridges that catch organic vapors, like for spraying paint. It’s fine, and not a significant burden. People complaining about masks are just that: complaining. Respirators are built for doing hard, strenuous labor in hazardous conditions. If demo crews can manage it, so can anyone else.
    • renewiltord 6y ago
      Haha, okay, you're very fit, clearly. People whose objectives don't prioritize hitting your cardiovascular fitness won't want to do that.
• odnorazovyj 6y ago
  Anyone dedicated enough to be still going to the gym is going to be healthy enough that they will have no problem with the coronavirus. The obese, diabetic etc will take any excuse to skip gym.
  • guerrilla 6y ago
    You must have forgotten that they're spreading it to everyone and thus indirectly killing people.
  • alistairSH 6y ago
    FFS, healthy people can catch COVID and have serious, life-impacting or deadly complications. Yes, it's more likely to kill older people. That doesn't mean it isn't still dangerous for younger and healthier people.
    • squidlogic 6y ago
      This response misses the point. Yes, it is possible for young healthy people to have complications from COVID. The thinking must go one step further: what is the likelihood of a deleterious outcome? Is it more than the likelihood than them getting in a crash while on the way to the gym (which we do not prohibit)? A further question: is the mitigating response impacting other outcomes that are important? In multi-objective analysis you must consider more than just one factor to arrive at an optimal state. I fear the analysis done by many laymen in this area only considers one factor (COVID infection), and even then, considers it without nuance.
  • amiga_500 6y ago
    Went to the gym 3 times a week, cycled 25k every weekday, ran on the weekends. Now I can only walk, after covid, which I got in early March. I'm hoping to try jogging again at some stage, after CT scans on my lungs, but I think it's a bit of a pipe dream. After 5 months the daily nausea has stopped. No prior conditions. Early 40s. edit: can't think of another site on the internet you'd get downvoted for the above, HN is really something
• andrelayer 6y ago
  I think a lot of people in this discussion are pitting the argument at people prioritizing their individual choices over the collective health of the community. I think that is a very singular framing from one side. A lot of people I know just believe that the virus itself is not as deadly as the reaction warrants. The infectious mortality rate of Covid is at best twice that of the normal flu, which isn't nothing and warrants action but probably not 40M people unemployed and possible national depression. The fact is if your under 30 you have a better chance of being hit by lightning then dying of Covid. It's pretty rational for someone to understand that and make personal choices without feeling like they're causing real danger to the community.
  • jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
    Not "possible depression". Depression. The economy crashed. It's over. The government's been buying the stock market to prop everything up. All the numbers you see are fabricated. The market never recovered from the initial crash. Last I checked a 3rd of Americans aren't paying rent now? It's going to explode dude.
    • dredmorbius 6y ago
      Much of the fall in activity is independent of announced quarantine measures. People simply stopped engaging in commercial activity. This appears across multiple states in the US and in multiple countries. Restaurant, cinema, theatre, and travel bookings most especially.
    • e12e 6y ago
      AFAIK global capitalism has been in an over production crisis since at least 2008. So it's not a depression due to covid-19, but a worsening of the existing depression due to covid-19. Still, those on top are still raking in profit - arguably the crisis isn't that we suddenly are running out of energy, food or housing - just that we're distributing it so badly that we've created poor living conditions for a lot of people.
    • nightski 6y ago
      The stock market recovery is not due to the government "buying the stock market" because they never did that. If you look at winners and losers in the stock market, followed the Q2 earnings season and saw what companies were facing, it seems clear to me that our economy faced a transition rather than a crash. There are huge winners in this market. Home Depot, Target, and other major retailers all announced record breaking income this past quarter. People are still shopping. Tech has lead the charge due to WFH and the shift to online. There are many more factors in this economic shift than could be explained by the Fed's money printing.
• eanzenberg 6y ago
  It’s not even a secret. Outside, in Lake Merritt are roughly 50 people daily working out with weights in the grass. No distancing. No masks. No fuss. No china flu. No china cold.
  • dang 6y ago
    I get that your comments are advocating for a contrarian opinion, and that's a frustrating position to be in, but would you please stop doing it with snark, flamebait, and gratuitous provocation? It isn't just that it breaks the site guidelines. The problem is also that it discredits whatever truth there is in your minority view, because posts like this give people an extraneous reason to reject it: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=truth%20discredit%20responsibility%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... This comment would be fine without the provocations at the end.
• diebir 6y ago
  I could never understand the point of a gym. Just a pair of running shoes. Some dumbbells. I picked up slacklining and bosu ball training during the lockdown. Why does one need a "gym" ??
  • zelly 6y ago
    Because a barbell, olympic weight set, squat rack takes up half a room and costs $10k vs. a <$30 monthly gym membership.
    • asdff 6y ago
      You don't need all that equipment to work the same muscle groups. Honestly, a $45 set of resistance bands is a great buy and these haven't experienced the same supply runs that heavy, more obvious equipment has experienced. Some great reading: https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-Training-2.pdf https://yoga-horizons.com/pdfs/Fatmans-Guide-to-Cable-Traini...
      • frickenhamster 6y ago
        Resistance bands are not even close to real weights. The feel is completely different and the resistance scales in a way that is counter productive for a lot of exercises. You don't have a constant measure of strength and progressive overload is impossible. Resistance bands are already as a supplement to free weight training but you can't get the same experience.
  • krapp 6y ago
    What's the point of restaurants when people have stoves and microwaves in their homes? It's a service, it provides convenience. Sure, I could buy several hundred thousand dollars' worth of free weights, machines and kettle bells, and a treadmill, and install a big tv over it and get satellite cable, and somehow fit all of that and a sauna and a swimming pool into my tiny apartment, and have to worry about moving it all every time I move, and about maintenance and everything else, or I could just walk into any Gold's Gym on the planet and have nothing but the workout be my problem.
• buttholesurfer 6y ago
  Lol the shutdowns will fuck us up for a decade.
• jacksonpollock 6y ago
  63% of gym memberships go completely unused (Statistic Brain survey of 5,313 American gym members). I don't see this as a big thing.
• zelly 6y ago
  Virtually all the people who died of covid were fat[1]. If the military forced everyone to exercise (and diet, but that's harder to mandate than exercising) it would have been much more effective than forcing everyone to wear masks. (Masks are still good though.) Most of us are going to get covid even if we stay inside all day (I got it twice) so this should be a wake-up call to be prepared to survive it. Or don't, stay overweight and choke on your own blood if you want--that's "freedom". [1] https://www.worldobesity.org/news/obesity-and-covid-19-policy-statement https://www.worldobesity.org/news/obesity-and-covid-19-polic...
  • dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Virtually all the people who died of covid were fat[1]. Your source doesn't support that. Viewing each of the separate country-specific statistics as being generally applicable you could conclude: * A majority were obese, but a significant minority were not. * Virtually all had some preexisting condition that COVID aggravated, and some (but not all) of those were preexisting conditions for which obesity is a risk factor. > If the military forced everyone to exercise (and diet, but that's harder to mandate than exercising) it would have been much more effective than forcing everyone to wear masks. That's not at all supported by any evidence which you've presented. For one thing you seem to have not considered in dreaming this up, people (especially, but not exclusively, of advanced age) with the kind of preexisting conditions involved often can't just pick up an exercise routine even if doing so before developing the conditions could have prevented them. > Most of us are going to get covid even if we stay inside all day (I got it twice) While there is some concern about whether getting it gives you long-term immunity, AFAICT there is no confirmed reinfection and most indicated potential reinfections are more likely to involve at least one testing error rather than an actual reinfection.
  • alexrson 6y ago
    In the cited article, the only statistic I see on weight specifically is that 74% of critically ill UK patients were overweight or obese, which makes it a risk factor but not the be all and end all, given what fraction of the whole pop fits that category (~65%). It also says that 99% of deaths in Italy were from patients with pre-existing conditions, which would included weight related and non-weight related ones. Regardless of COVID, maintaining a healthy weight is probably one of more important lifestyle changes one can make to reduce risk of overall mortality.
• eric_b 6y ago
  Where I live gyms have been open for some time. There's been no outbreaks at fitness facilities thus far in my state. I have friends in various countries in Europe who also lift regularly and their fitness facilities have been open for months with no issues. As always, a dose of perspective is necessary.
  • teachrdan 6y ago
    Did you read the article? It stated that the "underground" gyms had people close together without wearing masks. (This can be understood to be due to prohibition, of course.) Is that the case with the fitness centers in your state?
    • read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      It's definitely the case in my gym, which has been open for 3 months now. It's unavoidable that people get close to each other without a mask in a gym. No one is going to give a shit because the equipment is shared anyway.
• scottlocklin 6y ago
  The responses here are precious. Gym dudes: "leave me alone." Non gym dudes: "you're going to kill us all by doing deadlifts." FWIIW in the interests of full disclosure, I am thoroughly a gym dude, but have my own equipment and a terrible case of misanthropy, so I've been working out at home for years. I wonder how the paranoiacs who think deadlifters are going to cause mass death mentally deal with the facts on the ground in Sweden. They seem to be doing fine; all they did was prevent large gatherings; no masks, no shut down, yet 4x better covid death rate than, say, Massachusetts, which is still locked down as if we're in the black death. Nobody ever talks about Sweden, I guess because they appear to have gotten it right, making fools of most of the rest of the West.
  • wiseleo 6y ago
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown-policy-didnt-achieve-herd-immunity https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown... This from last week, cites studies. Short version: Sweden was wrong.
    • scottlocklin 6y ago
      Your source (by some dimwit reporter) still says 4x as many Massholes as Swedes died per capita; thank you, drive through. It is otherwise a non-sequitur.
• ben7799 6y ago
  A lot of this fretting seems to come down to people who are bodybuilder types. You don't need to be in a commercial gym to maintain solid functional fitness. You might need to be in a commercial gym to maintain unnatural levels of muscle mass and body weight for bodybuilding & powerlifting. Even that stuff can still be done in a home gym setting though given an equipment budget. This is not a health argument, it's not even proven bodybuilding is healthy.. excess mass from body building & powerlifting tends to have negative effects later in life due to the metabolic strain of the extra weight. Just deal with the idea you can stay super fit but you might not weigh as much. Gymnasts, rock climbers, etc.. are all ultra elite strength athletes that get by largely with bodyweight exercise & minimal equipment. They just don't have abnormally high body mass. Outside of these arguments of "I'm too big and strong to get enough home equipment to keep my gains Bro!" it mostly seems to come down to narcissism.. desire to be seen in the gym and to socialize in the gym. If that's such an important part of being in the gym it's no different than not being able to handle avoiding bars. You can still have a training partner for spotting... just make sure it's the same training partner and you both keep good behavior outside of workouts and it'll be pretty safe.
• lc9er 6y ago
  The number of sociopaths in this thread, more concerned about their 'optimal' means of fitness expression, versus the health and safety of their community is astounding. I'm a fitness enthusiast, but I've managed to adapt in less than ideal circumstances, even though it meant temporarily giving up a group sport. This is a small sacrifice for the overall benefit of the community, whether or not there is much risk to my personal well being.
• johnwalkr 6y ago
  Wow with these comments. You going to the gym is not saving the economy. Yes, we can't shut everything down but you'd think the article was about shutting down grocery stores or the stock market. And by not doing your part, your whole community could be stunted for 2 years. Also congratulations for not caring about a 1 in 200 chance of death (pretty high by the way) because you're healthy and passing on the risk to some vulnerable person (probably your parents or a school teacher) with a 1 in 10 chance of death. You might be helping your personal economy, but you're not helping "the economy". - give up a few luxuries especially if they involve heavy breathing or eating in close quarters. - Work from home if you can - Socially distance - Wear a mask when you can't socially distance - Go to work if you need to. Don't go to other people's work if you don't need to - Support temporary benefits to your fellow citizens as you helpfully avoid going to their place of work.
  • Y-Bopinator 6y ago
    Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong.
  • thewarrior 6y ago
    A German study found that even asymptomatic COVID patients have inflammation and damage to heart tissue that’s more than what you’d expect to see. We don’t know whether this will heal or affect the heart long term. People only looking at fatality rates and so on are taking unknown risks. Many people who have healed from COVID including younger people cannot even climb a flight of stairs. People suffer from fatigue and brain fog months later. Many need lung and kidney transplants. This is not a flu. It causes heavy clotting of the blood and organ damage all over the body which the flu doesn’t. I urge people to do more research before taking such risks.
    • seebetter 6y ago
      We really need to define "many people". I try to avoid comments and papers like you referenced. They essentially represent the worst case scenario -- it's in the air, unkillable, easy to catch, victims never recover, you may have no symptoms but permanent damage, it makes sane people go crazy etc etc. How about -- what's the max viral load one can sustain for it not to pass the 1st layer immune system? Is there really a 1st and 2nd layer? Can I resist it without getting antibodies? How much more effective is a KN95 / N95 mask in terms of viral load vs the others? And why don't we have more high powered venting fans and permanent outside events and require building to open their windows or remove their walls in climates where that'd work?
• auganov 6y ago
  I'm no fan of lockdowns, but comparisons to the prohibition of alcohol in America are appeals to political mythology. You may argue it didn't work to the extent some have wanted it to, but it did produce "positive" results on almost every notable metric other than political satisfaction. By some measures alcohol consumption only recovered to pre-prohibition levels in the 1960s. In the big scheme of things it's just not a good example of anything relating to effectiveness of government imposed restrictions.
• Thorondor 6y ago
  Most commenters here seem to implicitly accept the framing of the discussion around stay-at-home orders as some sort of tradeoff between different values – for example, saving lives versus protecting the economy, or freedom versus safety. But has anyone considered whether stay-at-home orders have actually saved lives overall? The UN estimated [0][1] that between 83 million and 132 million people will go hungry around the world because of anti-COVID measures. Some of these people will die from starvation or malnutrition. Some of them will die from other preventable health problems later in life. According to the Stop TB Partnership, a three-month lockdown followed by a gradual return to normal over 10 months could result in an additional 6.3 million cases of tuberculosis and 1.4 million deaths between 2020 and 2025. [2][3] It's also plausible that lockdowns could lead to hundreds of thousands of additional deaths from each of HIV/AIDS [4], malaria [5], and several other diseases, though I'm not as confident about these numbers. I am sure someone will be tempted to respond with some variant on "we could have avoided these deaths by tuning the stay-at-home restrictions more competently." Of course, that's true; but the point is that we didn't. We never do. Historically, every society that has tried to eliminate "non-essential" jobs through central planning has eventually found that even when the planners operate with the very best of intentions, they still make mistakes. Dealing with one problem causes a cascade of other subtle changes with real, harmful consequences, which are harder to mitigate when people aren't allowed to freely choose how to spend their own resources. Meanwhile, problems that are judged to be less important are forgotten, because planners can only focus on a limited number of tasks at one time. Human societies are incredibly complex. Trying to manage them from the top is like developing software using the waterfall model: it would work perfectly with perfect planning, but we all know how that works out in real life. On a personal level: a relative passed away from cancer recently. Cancer isn't a good way to die at the best of times; and I'll be honest, she almost certainly would not have survived even with better medical treatment. But if hospitals hadn't shut down "elective" and "non-essential" care, she could have gone through a lot less pain and suffering. I am not trying to use this as a bludgeon – I understand there are also a lot of people who have suffered greatly from COVID, and of course, we should make policy based on what's best for everyone rather than a small number of anecdotes. But when I read comments saying things like "I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people"... let's just say that I don't know how to respond to that without severely violating HN guidelines. [0]: https://data.unicef.org/resources/sofi-2020/ https://data.unicef.org/resources/sofi-2020/ [1]: https://africa.cgtn.com/2020/07/17/who-urges-world-not-to-focus-entirely-on-covid-19-at-the-expense-of-other-crises/ https://africa.cgtn.com/2020/07/17/who-urges-world-not-to-fo... [2]: http://www.stoptb.org/assets/documents/news/Modeling%20Report_1%20May%202020_FINAL.pdf http://www.stoptb.org/assets/documents/news/Modeling%20Repor... [3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/health/coronavirus-tuberculosis-aids-malaria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/health/coronavirus-tuberc... [4]: https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/11-05-2020-the-cost-of-inaction-covid-19-related-service-disruptions-could-cause-hundreds-of-thousands-of-extra-deaths-from-hiv https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/11-05-2020-the-cost-of-... [5]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1025-y https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1025-y
• jason0597 6y ago
  I think it is a bit unfortunate that the conversation has completely derailed. The article wanted to talk about prohibition and how it doesn't work (it just makes the product unregulated and sometimes dangerous, either it be a gym or drugs), and the discussion here seems to go on and on about mask wearing and social distancing. I'm sure we've all seen this discussion before.
  • esthete_et_mat 6y ago
    It works for 95% of the population. Good enouth
• alicemaz 6y ago
  so many comments arguing about what everyone in aggregate is morally obligated to abstain from or morally permitted to partake in. meanwhile the article itself is just about what people end up doing. "the government closed the gyms. lots of people want to exercise together and/or with expensive bulky equipment so they make illegal gyms." no amount of ethics lawyering is going to change this honestly I think the phased reopenings are partly to blame, once you say "this is important enough, that isn't" everyone wants to do their things and disparage other people's things. if they closed the gyms here again, I'd find an illegal one. if they closed the restaurants, or the churches, or the schools, I wouldn't care. but for the people who derive existential fulfillment from their religion, or can't tolerate taking care of their children 24/7, or [insert reason why people care about restaurants, I honestly don't understand the upside anymore], my desire to go to my gym is selfish and wrong but their need for their thing is inherently good and right not to mention the fact that most of the country isn't locked down, and there's no internal borders, and most people didn't take lockdowns seriously after the first month or two of kumbaya we're all in this together stuff anyway. so your individual actions wouldn't even move the needle. there's a continuum between the hypervigilent closed societies where one person gets it and they shut down the city, and the endemic countries where it's already everywhere anyway so the best you can do is mitigate risk to a tolerable level and go on with your life. new zealand, south korea, taiwan vs. mexico, india, brazil. we're with india and brazil and I don't think it could have gone any other way. americans are suspicious and callous toward their countrymen and deathly allergic to being told what to do. for better or worse, it's just in our blood. gotta make the best of it
  • heckled 6y ago
    > it's just in our blood. How figurative is the blood you're referring to here? I'm a naturalized US citizen from a country that dealt well with the pandemic. I wasn't born in my heritage country, and so have always identified first as an American. But, recent events demonstrating the "uglier" side of America's sociocultural norms has left me wondering if >~40% of the country I recognize as home don't consider me a worthwhile part of it.
• p1necone 6y ago
  The people denying the pandemic (or calling it a "plandemic"), or refusing to wear masks because muh freedoms, or protesting lockdowns are going to be laughed at in history classes for decades. You are unbelievably ignorant, selfish and arrogant. You are the reason this stuff needs to be enforced in the first place, because too many people completely lack empathy and critical thinking ability.
  • notassigned 6y ago
    What do you think about Sweden, then? They seem to be done with this with no lockdown and a small amount of death (accounting for old people who would have died this year anyway, statistically)
    • p1necone 6y ago
      They've done significantly worse than other countries in the same region of the world that did have lockdowns. What do you think you're accomplishing by posting easily debunked misinformation?
      • notassigned 6y ago
        >What do you think you're accomplishing by posting easily debunked misinformation? The data on Sweden is clear, they are down to near zero covid deaths per day in a country of over 10 million people. Can't see how that can be debunked. And how are they significantly worse? They are living normal lives. Also, if something is 'easily debunked' then just do it.
        • p1necone 6y ago
          Sweden has had many more deaths than neighboring countries. The death rate slowing now is not going to bring those people back to life. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries Sort by deaths/million - Sweden is even higher than the USA. I'm not going to reply to you any more, don't think you've won just because you gish gallop on to another falsehood in your reply.
• dillondoyle 6y ago
  I'm curious to check my ethics. I'm in Colorado. Currently climbing gyms are open, limited capacity, with masks. I'm currently planning for winter. My gut says in 6-8 weeks with schools + flu season starting there's good chance of either shut down of gyms again or just too much risk for me. So I've been looking for private commercial space. I already have a personal wall need to move it indoors. My question is what others think of the ethics of expanding from just myself to trying to get 5-10 people onboard with a 501c7 social group to lower costs and build more walls in a private space. Only allow one person in at a time - mask-less (or closed loop groups for instance me and my climbing partner are in a 2 person closed loop). I'm currently trying to look at the last order to see if that's legal. but now with this thread I'm questioning the ethics and curious what others think. Besides the obvious unequal privilege that I can afford this luxury.
• porknubbins 6y ago
  “Fancy fit”, that is brutal haha. Some guy probably spent hours every week painfully doing the right mix of weightlifting, HIT and yoga to achieve that lean but muscular look popular with a certain class of women, probably thinks he looks tough and gets called “fancy”. At some point I’d just embrace being fat.
• peter303 6y ago
  I had been going to legal gyms for two months. The intense focus on hygiene seems to be working since none of the 600 outbreaks inmy state has been traced to a gym.
• leptoniscool 6y ago
  So this is the cause of community spread in the US..
• frickenhamster 6y ago
  You want to massively decrease the deathrate of COVID? (and death rates in general) Deal with the 40% obesity rate in the US. Death rates are extremely low if you're not geriatric or not fat. All the top killers are attributable to being fat and living unhealthy lifestyles. COVID is the scapegoat here.
  • divbzero 6y ago
    Old age isn’t attributable to living unhealthy lifestyles, so I consider COVID a threat in its own right and not just a scapegoat. But I agree with your broader point that fighting obesity, smoking, and other health risks should also be priorities even though COVID has greater mindshare at the moment.
    • frickenhamster 6y ago
      Its true that old people have a higher deathrate, but we'll see deathrates in general drop in the years following 2020. Most of the people that are dying right now already have a foot in the grave. We won't know the impact of COVID specifically until many years after and a lot of data engineering. At that time, people won't care and the sensationalist numbers will win out.
• daguava 6y ago
  Anyone supporting Gyms or high-traffic transmission areas right now are clearly narcissistic. If this getting called out is an affront to you, you may need to visit your physician to get diagnosed.
• dmead 6y ago
  there is an amazing amount of garbage being said here. wear a mask please.
• 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Choose your own adventure 1. Go to the gym during a pandemic 2.a. Your lungs are permanently damaged, with lower lung capacity for life. Your life expectancy is shortened. 2.b. You are dead. 2.c. You did not develop symptoms. 3. You passed on the disease to many people, including your friends and family. 4. Everything you wanted to achieve by going to the gym turned out wrong and everyone now thinks you are/were a selfish jerk.
• quattrofan 6y ago
  Prohibition=war on drugs. Funny how few are willing to admit it.
• b0rsuk 6y ago
  In ancient Greek army, they had a death penalty for losing your shield, the same as desertion. There was no such penalty for losing your helmet or armor. Why ? Because they fought in a phalanx, and a soldier losing his shield endangered not only himself, but also his companion on the left. Fun fact: all Greek troops were named after the type of shield they used. Source: https://acoup.blog/2020/03/17/new-acquisitions-hoplite-style-disease-control-march-17-2020/ https://acoup.blog/2020/03/17/new-acquisitions-hoplite-style...
• xkbarkar 6y ago
  Jesus. All HN covid threads read like teenage internet trolls have taken over. No sources for claims and full of outrageus anecdotes. In my country its usually people living off the state that comment like this.
• frankzen 6y ago
  Under conditions like these, a thriving black market is inevitable.
• sngz 6y ago
  this thread is a perfect example of why we are so fucked
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Daily reminder that we have the technology to get society back to normal with cheap 15 minute ‘good-enough’ covid tests that can be manufactured now (millions per day). All we need is competent leadership in government to say ‘go’
• rsanek 6y ago
  >Christina learned that these swole, maskless bros were refugees from big chain gyms like the YMCA and Planet Fitness Seriously doubt anybody described as a 'swole bro' is coming from Planet Fitness. They're pretty heavy on the anti-bro advertising [0] and their business model is more about finding tons of people sign up that rarely actually work out in their gym. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Y4XY8Pl6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Y4XY8Pl6U