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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus
- hello_friendos 8y agoGood, Amazon shouldn't be getting any subsidies just for having their offices in a city.
- iddqd 8y agoThey probably found a better deal somewhere else.
- lovecg 8y agoEven if the city gets back much more in tax revenue?
- Bucephalus355 8y agoLol dude that never happens.
- deelowe 8y agoYes it does. It's extremely common for businesses to be offered incentives like this. They are usually bounded in a way to ensure it's beneficial to the city. The ones I've seen are requiring a certain number of headcount be maintained over a specific duration, a certain amount in salary be paid out over a specific period of time, and certain infrastructure be installed within a certain period. If these obligations aren't met, then the company is required to pay back the incentives plus penalties.
- josefresco 8y agoExcept this: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-wisconsin-foxconn-tax-incentives-20170808-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-wisconsin-foxconn... Maybe an extreme example of a "bad deal" but these aren't always a slam dunk, and some of the math to justify (especially sports stadiums) can be a bit iffy.
- throwaway2048 8y agoeven if that is true (which it isn't) the HQ2 deal had no conditions like that attached.
- Guest42 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve But what about.....just kidding couldn't help it
- CydeWeys 8y agoNo, because then it's a race to the bottom and all other companies start expecting these same deals (or even better), and eventually you do end up with a situation where the city does not get back more in tax revenue. It's simple negotiation; you may lose some money on that one deal, but you'll gain more in the end by not decreasing the value of all subsequent deals.
- natalyarostova 8y agoThe counter-point to race to the bottom, is this is an important aspect of pressure in a democratic capitalism to prevent government as a leviathan. The government has a natural incentive to want to raise more revenue, and increase power. A strong market that can stifle these, at times potentially inefficient taxes, can provide a natural check on this. Obviously the truth is that there are bad aspects of a race to the bottom as well as positive attributes. Finding the balance requires nuance and grace by the leaders who navigate these uncertain waters.
- refurb 8y agoIf a city signs up for a money losing deal, that’s on them. They should have negotiated better.
- SilasX 8y agoOr, you'll lose out on all the businesses that won't start or expand there because the baseline level of taxation is too unfavorable for the economy (in either sense of the word) that the city offers. It's almost like taxing easily-moveable economic activity is a bad idea.
- jdhn 8y agoYou're getting downvoted, but it's true. If I recall, the city/state would've broken even not that far into the future, and then everything after that would've been pure profit for them.
- OldFatCactus 8y agodo you have a link to that data?
- jdhn 8y agoHere you go[0]. Some highlights: 1. $2.988 billion in state/city subsidies (so ~$48,000 per job) 2. The state estimated that Amazon will generate $27.5 billion in state and city revenue over 25 years, a 9:1 ratio of revenue to subsidies. Using the numbers above, we can calculate that the state would break even in roughly 3 years if they're correct. [0]https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098589/amazon-hq2-nyc-queens-long-island-city-explained https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098589/amazon-hq2-nyc-que...
- pzone 8y agoThe subsidies themselves would have been given to Amazon over the course of several years. NY would be in the black after no more than a year.
- dralley 8y agoIt's a matter of principle. NYC (or any municipality) shouldn't be bending over for massive multinationals. It's a form of corruption, one that's depressingly widespread, and it's a race to the bottom that, from a 30,000 foot view, accomplishes nothing but screwing over the taxpayers and smaller competitors lacking the leverage for these antics, and benefiting the corporations that are already enormous and powerful.
- jas_far 8y agoI can’t believe you have to explain to people why corporatism is a bad thing. It underlies the largest problems in this country, and we should actively be protesting it.
- bacondude3 8y agoEven then, no. If a city wants businesses there, they should make it easier for everybody, not just big companies like Amazon.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- melling 8y agoThey're still going to be getting subsidies, just not from NY.
- tomtimtall 8y agoThey’ll still get subsidies, just somewhere. The system being what it is, you can’t fault them for finding the fair market price of setting up their campus at you location. It’s a mutually beneficial deal, but now Mew York gains nothing at all. That said the system could be changed and laws written to prevent subsidies all together. Then competition for large workforces would be based on other factors.
- CPLX 8y agoNew York does gain something, the much more vibrant and robust collection of businesses that will occupy that area instead and pay their fair share of taxes.
- quxbar 8y agoYou really have no idea what LIC is like, do you? They're completely unable to support small businesses except those that cater to the upper-middle class. There is no dollar slice, only $24 gluten-free artisanal pizza. The only business Amazon was going to displace was Citibank.
- CPLX 8y agoI can literally see LIC right now from my window. If you're tired of $24 pizza consider the cabbie serving south asian places along 21st street, they're fantastic, and yes they're still there.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sneak 8y agoTurn it around: these cities had absolutely nothing to do with Amazon’s success. Now they want a cut of the revenues (taxes) simply because they want to hire in a location? If Amazon doesn’t consent to that and no deal is reached: how on earth is that a benefit? If you stop seeing the tax payments as entitlements, it begins to be a lot easier to reason about.
- CydeWeys 8y agoA shame. As an employee of a Big N company in NYC, this would have provided upward pressure on my salary (even if personally I wouldn't want to go work for Amazon). But I didn't like the big tax breaks, and as a taxpayer of the city I'm glad my money won't go towards subsidizing the expansion of one of the world's most valuable companies. It's too bad Amazon wasn't willing to pay their fair share.
- GoodJokes 8y agoUpward pressure on your salary. Ew. Keep that to yourself.
- taude 8y agoAs a counter, I don't have to worry about or co-workers exiting for this fierce competitor with hiring.
- akhilcacharya 8y agoAmazon is already in NYC and Newark though!
- 8y ago
- aaronbrethorst 8y agoGoogle didn't need any dog and pony show or significant forms of corporate welfare (that we know of) to announce a doubling of their presence in New York. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/17/google-announces-billion-expansion-new-york-city/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/17/google-...
- akhilcacharya 8y agoDoubling their office there still pales in comparison to the headcount projected for LIC. 7K max vs. 25k targeted for Amazon. Amazon already has a presence in NYC.
- taude 8y agoWould be interesting to know how many employees Amazon currently has in NY. I wouldn't be surprised to find out it's already in the thousands.
- chimeracoder 8y ago> Would be interesting to know how many employees Amazon currently has in NY. I wouldn't be surprised to find out it's already in the thousands. Amazon already has an office in New York City, as well as a sizeable presence in New Jersey just outside the city limits (within commuting distance), split between two New Jersey offices, last I checked.
- aaronbrethorst 8y ago2,000 salaried and 3,000 warehouse at the end of 2017: https://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2017/09/21/amazon-bringing-2-000-employees-to-new-york-city.html https://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2017/09/21/amazon-b...
- WaltPurvis 8y agoUh, the statement itself says: "There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams."
- berbec 8y agoNot going to miss them. Local governments giving huge tax breaks in exchange for stadiums, businesses relocating never works out.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- emaginniss 8y agoI don't know if you can say "never". The relationship between Dell and Round Rock, TX was based on such a deal and was a significant boon in the growth of a small town into a reasonable size suburb with a good amount of industry. https://www.statesman.com/news/20161125/this-day-in-tech-history-when-dell-almost-kept-its-hq-in-austin-instead-of-round-rock https://www.statesman.com/news/20161125/this-day-in-tech-his...
- GVIrish 8y agoI'm very much not a fan of using public money to build stadiums for billionaires, but the deal with Amazon is a bit different in that it would actually have positive economic impact for the eventual location. With a stadium, you only employ a relatively small number of people during the week and off-season. Staff during games and concerts are not really earning a ton of money that will create new economic activity. With Amazon, tech workers actually increase the tax base and they're spending their money at local businesses. At least with the Virginia deal, the tax breaks don't kick in until they actual create jobs at the promised salary levels. Now I don't really agree with giving a massive private business all of these tax breaks, they can afford to expand without them if it makes business sense. The problem is that each state is competing with each other and FOMO kicks in. Without that powerful motivation companies wouldn't pull these stunts. Although eventually they'd try to pit countries against each other (which they kind of already do).
- kodablah 8y agoI have plenty of examples where it works out. The town I live in gave large tax breaks not too long ago and it's working well. Nearby, sports facilities were financed with balloted measures at the request of the public, sometimes in conjunction with the local ISDs who share the facilities. The vast majority are benefiting from this public/private economic cooperation.
- ihuman 8y agoI wonder if this means they'll expand the plans for the north Virginia hq
- slg 8y agoI wonder how many Amazon employees sold their nice new condos in the last couple weeks. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18503434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18503434
- josefresco 8y agoI wonder how many Queens residents sold their apartments/condos before this news broke? Talk about timing. I know of one person who was drooling at this unexpected windfall and will now be very... sad.
- schnevets 8y agoBetween this and the L train drama impacting Williamsburg, I wonder how much volatility the outer borough housing market can take. Sure there has been a housing bubble there for a decade, and I'm certain there are some real estate insiders benefiting from this arbitrage, but this kind of dysfunction can't be good for the economy.
- dontbenebby 8y agoI think in the long term that condo will have value. Queens is reasonably priced and a decent commute to Manhattan. My suspicion is long term, it will be commute time that dictates housing prices. (Look at cities in Europe, where there's excellent public transit - the "nice" areas are downtown, and the "slums" or "rough" areas are often in the burbs.
- Yabood 8y agoThis could be an interesting development for the DC metro area.
- dacur 8y ago>We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.
- CydeWeys 8y agoIt's not clear to me how this comment is relevant. Northern Virginia is the DC area, and if this cancellation means that all of the jobs that were previously slated to go to NYC will instead go to the DC area office, then that will have huge effects on DC.
- sjroot 8y agoIs there a press release or any statement from Amazon about this? Paywalled here (and would prefer a direct source anyway).
- stephencoyner 8y agoFrom Amazon "After much thought and deliberation, we’ve decided not to move forward with our plans to build a headquarters for Amazon in Long Island City, Queens. For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires positive, collaborative relationships with state and local elected officials who will be supportive over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City. We are disappointed to have reached this conclusion — we love New York, its incomparable dynamism, people, and culture — and particularly the community of Long Island City, where we have gotten to know so many optimistic, forward-leaning community leaders, small business owners, and residents. There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams. We are deeply grateful to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and their staffs, who so enthusiastically and graciously invited us to build in New York City and supported us during the process. Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have worked tirelessly on behalf of New Yorkers to encourage local investment and job creation, and we can’t speak positively enough about all their efforts. The steadfast commitment and dedication that these leaders have demonstrated to the communities they represent inspired us from the very beginning and is one of the big reasons our decision was so difficult. We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada. Thank you again to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and the many other community leaders and residents who welcomed our plans and supported us along the way. We hope to have future chances to collaborate as we continue to build our presence in New York over time."
- nxlouie 8y agoThis particular article is very short and pretty much the headline.
- forkandwait 8y agoOf all the places, why did NYC offer Amazon subsidies? NYC actually has too many good jobs for the amount of space... I am also proud of my cantankerous fellow New Yorkers who fought this.
- melling 8y agoYou won!
- melling 8y agoWas I too snarky? How about a little more? The planet is sad because 25,000 people won't be taking the subway to work.
- kjsbfkjbf 8y agoHopefully the planet understands that 25000 people can find other jobs in NYC and still take the subway to work? Your math is way off.
- chc 8y agoIf you want to support the environment, putting an Amazon campus in New York is about the least impactful way you could possibly go about it.
- barry-cotter 8y agoStupid as the subsidies were your attitude is vile. We have a technology for increasing housing, they’re called apartments. New York does not lack space, it lacks enough housing. If this kind of crap goes on New York will get as bad as California where every municipality wants to build offices and nowhere wants to build housing. This delight in pulling up the ladder after you and making it harder for people to get jobs is odious.
- kerbalspacepro 8y agoNew York becoming like California? Isn't the problem that California is becoming like New York???
- jdhn 8y agoInteresting. I guess they estimated that the battle to retain the tax breaks wasn't worth the fight. I wonder if they'll continue to expand in Seattle, or wait a few years before putting HQ2 elsewhere.
- taude 8y agoWonder how many people started real-estate speculation who might be hurt from this?
- moate 8y agoCounterpoint: wonder how many people sold real estate that greatly benefited from this?
- jliptzin 8y agoWhatever real estate may have been purchased in or around LIC is still going to be valuable even without this deal, but may take a little longer to recover.
- CydeWeys 8y agoWho cares? If you indulge in speculation and then get hurt by it, well then, you knew the risks going in.
- thecybernerd 8y agoSo is this a boon for Northern Virginia or will something similar happen there?
- gk1 8y agoThis is the first time I’m seeing Nashville mentioned, so I wonder if they’ll benefit somehow from this.
- hindsightRegret 8y agoThey'll never get 25k workers to relocate to Nashville.
- Apocryphon 8y agoWhy not? Isn’t it the new Austin?
- empath75 8y agonashville was a logistics hub for them, i think.
- barry-cotter 8y agoThey were already going to get 5,000 jobs for something to do with automation.
- lordleft 8y agoI would have liked to have had Amazon become a bigger presence here in NYC, but I strongly disagreed with their tactics and use of a contest to facilitate a race to the bottom among municipalities.
- whatok 8y agohttps://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-for-new-york-city-headquarters https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-fo...
- tomstockmail 8y ago"We do not intend to reopen the HQ2 search at this time." I wonder if this is to let some of the news cool, work behind the scenes with some of the previous offers, then surprise announcement down the road.
- Cshelton 8y agoIt has already been rumored that Dallas is working with them, still. The head of the initiative, from the start, has stated, "We have never ended talks with Amazon, they are still ongoing". That was as of earlier this week/last week.
- bluedino 8y ago>> We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville Weird.
- the_gastropod 8y agoI'm not sure it is. There was always a suspicion that Amazon knew from day one they wanted to open a HQ in NYC—they just put on this show to get cities into a bidding war to provide the biggest tax break. I don't imagine the publicity around having NYC tax-payers subsidize the world's richest man's business dealings is positive.
- mturmon 8y agoAmazon also got a lot of free, confidential data on growth prospects from midsize to large cities all across the US, which would be useful for planning other facilities like warehouses and retail outlets like Whole Foods.
- cbm-vic-20 8y agoTranslated: "Fuck you, New York."
- Bucephalus355 8y agoTotally anedcotal evidence, but the first 5 top level comments (make that 6 now) are all against Amazon for NYC. Looks like we’ve reached our “Gettysburg” moment against corporate welfare. Terrible years of war still left, but the tide has turned.
- moate 8y agoGod I hope this comment ages well, but my skepticism is very high. We still have cabals of corporate paid lawmakers at every level of government and there's still tons of lobbying money putting a finger on the scale of the fight. But fewer Foxconn style deals and race to the bottom HQ2 publicity stunts would be great for everyone (except the mega-corps).
- kokokokoko 8y agoIt's very different because a large amount of NYC residents rent as opposed to own. To a resident that rents in NYC, Amazon moving in means they will have higher rents and less money on their pocket. It ends up costing many NYC residents actual money in rent to host Amazon, regardless of the subsidy. I think this one is a special case.
- magduf 8y agoI don't see the problem here at all. If you have higher rents, that's because there's more demand for housing, and not enough affordable new housing is being constructed. Who controls that? Your local politicians. Who controls them? The voters who elected them, which is you if you live there. So you have no one to blame but yourself, and no cause to complain. You have the government you deserve.
- elfakyn 8y agoThat is a very shortsighted blame-the-victim mentality. You're conflating the power of the individual voter with that of the entire voting bloc. Besides, even if new affordable housing was constructed (which is getting harder and harder in nyc as people are being pushed further and further out geographically), it's not easy to just up and move, even in nyc.
- nxlouie 8y agoI wonder if the victory for local organizers here will provide a model for anti-tech movements in other urban areas?
- cbdumas 8y agoIf Amazon hadn't turned this whole "HQ2" thing into a national drama they could have built a huge presence there without riling up so much backlash. Hopefully this ridiculous stunt is a lesson to them.
- phaedryx 8y agoUnfortunately, I think they learned that cities will bend over backwards for them and offer up tons of free data and tax incentives.
- tmh79 8y agonot the cities they want to move to though... Pretty widely speculated that they were going to go to NYC and VA regardless of what the other cities did & the HQ2 gambit was just meant to maximize their bargaining position with these governments
- rlanday 8y agoOk, but those people were wrong, since Amazon ended up pulling out of New York. New Yorkers have an extremely inflated sense of self-important and think Amazon just has to be in New York, when that’s clearly not the case.
- cbdumas 8y ago<speculation> Honestly I think they had only a very few locations in mind when starting this "search" anyway, but wanted to frame it as this big, open-ended, national competition in order to wring the highest dollar amount out of their favorite spots. They were never going to take the risk of attracting workers to Tulsa, Detroit, or {insert other city in Middle America} over an existing large pool of talent in an attractive metropolitan area. </speculation>
- PhoenixReborn 8y agoWhile it is conjecture, I think this speculation is accepted relatively widely at this juncture. So given the farcical nature of the HQ2 competition, I think it's all the better that NYC doesn't bend to Amazon and allow them to dictate the terms at which they enter an already competitive labor marketplace.
- endofcapital 8y agoSo massive amounts of corporate welfare and blatant handouts aren't enough? AFTER doing that, we're also supposed to play nice and continue to say good things about the most massive, powerful corporation in the world or else they will just take their ball and go home? This whole thing is beyond stupid, no aspect of this model works for anyone. Just stop.
- tribune 8y ago1. $3B in "incentives" sounds like a lot, but would this have been a good investment? i.e. would the city and State have gotten a reasonable return in the long run? 2. New York already has a lot to offer in terms of labor market, real estate for employees, and access to capital markets. Did Amazon really need incentives to want to be in NYC? 3. No huge loss for either party. NYC doesn't need Amazon, and Amazon can make the little people dance for them somewhere else.
- larrydag 8y agoConcerning 1. I believe that is often overlooked. It would not be hard (I suspect) to figure out the future effective tax revenue a municipality would receive.
- moate 8y agoAlso, being a positive gain doesn't represent a good deal. We don't know what the lowest deal was that Amazon might have accepted (2 Billion? 1 Billion?) so even if NYC winds up in the black, they might have been leaving hundreds of millions of dollars on the negotiating table. It's just like anything, you might benefit from the price you pay but you might have been able to get it cheaper.
- shaki-dora 8y agoIt isn’t about the net loss or win for NY. The problem with subsidies is that they needlessly cost money in a zero-sum competition between cities. It was always clear that Amazon would build somewhere. A race to the bottom competition over the exact location leaves everyone but them worse off than the alternative, which is coordinating to refuse to engage in it, like any sane economy like the EU does.
- jumbopapa 8y agoIt's almost like there is a demand for Amazon to have a presence in the community.
- 8y ago
- sigfubar 8y agoGood riddance! NYC is already overcrowded. Let's build some subways to non-hipster neighborhoods first, then we can talk about adding more office space.
- saosebastiao 8y agoSurprise, backroom sweetheart deals between businesses and politicians are wildly unpopular. And it was dumb for Amazon to seek out subsidies anyway. Amazon only needed one criteria to have a successful HQ2: A willingness to accommodate new housing demand. $3B in subsidies would be dwarfed by the increase in salaries from higher costs of living. If a city can allow housing to be built, and keep up with Amazon's hiring demand to keep housing prices flat, that alone would be worth far more than any city or state could ever hand over to Amazon in subsidies.
- annexrichmond 8y ago> We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada. So this whole HQ2 thing ended up being a grand waste of everybody's time.
- stevietopsiders 8y agoBig slap in the face to the other cities filing bids. They also made attractive offers, but Amazon wasn't interested in them, just in wringing tax breaks out of NYC.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- kevin_b_er 8y agoThe HQ2 search was likely always a facade to try to leverage their real targets. Hopefully all those other cities now realize Amazon was just playing them. Corporations can and will lie for profit. Corporations just don't like it when they get caught.
- SeanLuke 8y agoI think Arlington would disagree with you.
- rexreed 8y agoNot for those of us in the N. Virginia region. I'm celebrating the announcement as a double-down on our region
- rexreed 8y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17503917 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17503917
- endofcapital 8y agoThe big tech giants seem to be A/B testing different ways of opposing and working with the government. Sooner or later these tests are going to start showing they have more power than the government, and they will start ignoring laws because they are irrelevant to increasing whatever metric is important this quarter. This may have already happened, it's really hard to say.
- aaronbrethorst 8y agoit has already happened. it's not hard to say. https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted
- skh 8y agoMy current pet idea is that the Electoral College ought to be replaced with the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies. That way we could do away with the facade that presidential elections currently create.
- occamrazor 8y agoCurious fact: in the City of London, companies vote in the election of the local council, with a number of votes which depends on the number of employees within the City.
- djsumdog 8y agoGCP Grey does a great video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc Jay Foreman does another great video on the very weird situation with the House of Lords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQBTvRj0s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQBTvRj0s8
- nostoc 8y agoObligatory reminder that London != City of London
- djsumdog 8y ago
- zelias 8y agoIf Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision
- weliketocode 8y agoTheir dog and pony show almost netted them $3bn. That type of payday might be worth a bit of scrutiny.
- vonmoltke 8y agoNo it didn't. The vast majority of those incentives were on the table for Amazon, or anyone else, without the theatrics.
- null000 8y agoOh, sorry, it was "only" 1/2 a billion that was specially on the table for Amazon (if up thread comments are to be trusted) That's not peanuts.
- vonmoltke 8y agoI never said it was, or that it in itself wasn't a problem. It's far less than $3B though, so anyone talking about billions specifically for Amazon is wrong. Also, if your problem is large tax breaks for corporations, the focus should be on those programs that make available the other $2.5B available, since any corporation with a similar scale project could get that. Focusing specifically on Amazon distracts from the existence of these programs and whether that existence is a good idea. As an aside, your snarky tone detracts from your comment and hurts the discourse.
- digianarchist 8y ago>Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. Unless it's for a football stadium.
- legitster 8y agoA bit disappointed. The narrative really turned on Amazon during this process. But I feel like every organization shops around for deals - Amazon was the first company to do it transparently and openly tell cities what they have or are missing. There was a real opportunity to bring tech industry to heartland cities. In the end all they proved was this kind of stuff should just stay in the backroom. And good paying tech jobs stay on the coasts.
- jandrese 8y agoI would't feel too bad for Amazon. They are the ones that made it a big spectacle and dragged it out for far longer than necessary or wise.
- legitster 8y agoI don't necessarily feel bad for Amazon - I guess I just hate how disappointing the result was. Transparency lost. They likely could have avoided it if they had just selected one of the dark horses like Indianapolis or Saint Louis.
- untog 8y ago> Transparency lost. The process was anything but transparent. "Cities’ Offers for Amazon Base Are Secrets Even to Many City Leaders": https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-headquarters-hq2.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-headqua...
- kevin_b_er 8y agoAmazon never intended to go with any of those "dark horses". It was just a play for a better deal elsewhere.
- Analemma_ 8y agoYou’re being tremendously naive about this. There was never any chance of Amazon locating to St. Louis or whatever: NYC and DC were always the only options on their radar. The entire “HQ2 search” malarkey was just to extract the maximum possible tax breaks from whichever one they chose.
- 40acres 8y agoI think this is more on the city and state government than Amazon itself. Of course Amazon was going to push for the sweetest deal they could get but Cuomo and DeBlasio bent the rules too far and the massive push back was justified, if I recall correctly the city council was going to use some really iliberal moves to get this tax package through. NYC could've had Amazon, even with decent tax breaks, but the government just went too far without the support of its constituents.
- kickapps 8y agoAmazon announcement: => https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-for-new-york-city-headquarters https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-fo...
- josefresco 8y ago"70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence" Sounds like a negotiating tactic, to encourage residents in support of the campus to put pressure on their representatives in government. The "politicians" are upset, because their constituents are upset. Amazon, attempting to turn the tables is an interesting tactic - sort of a reverse psychology. I wonder if it will work.
- whoisjuan 8y agoWhat negotiation tactic? They already withdrew their plan of building a HQ there. It would be absolutely ridiculous and absurd if they decide to come back, just because the narrative between officials and constituents changed.
- josefresco 8y agoIt certainly looks final, but that line struck me as odd. It's either a "final jab" as they walk out the door, sort of a message or lesson to other cities or regions, OR it's just a very hard-line negotiating tactic. Honestly, them coming back to NYC wouldn't be any less of a shit show then the process of them coming to NYC.
- magduf 8y ago>"70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence" While I'm skeptical about this claim about 70% of NYers supporting this, if it's true, then they should do a better job of voting.
- Simulacra 8y agoWill this foretell how Amazon will punish NYC for its obstinacy?
- raiyu 8y agoAfter being a resident of NYC for 30 years and seeing the city change and become a technology hub and just a financial center I think this is a real loss for NYC. It would also be in Long island City which would provide a huge influx of new workers and move that neighborhood forward in development rapidly. The down side would be that it would push some residents and business owners out but this is simply a fact of life in NYC where on a long enough time line every undesirable neighborhood eventually become desirable simply because of increase in residents and increase in real estate prices. That would also conversely make adjacent neighborhoods more attractive. As for the tax breaks those would eventually be off set and it would still be cheaper than the amount that was spent on a useless Subway line that took a decade and really added no real capacity where it mattered.
- tmh79 8y agothe issue for me is that the main benefit of the tax breaks is capitalized by owners of AMZN stock, mainly Bezos, the wealthiest man in the world. AMZN is going to grow somewhere, they should pay taxes where they grow.
- raiyu 8y agoYeah but they will get that tax break regardless at least this we can continue to make NYC a powerhouse tech center. And it's in Long island City not in Manhattan like Facebook and Google.
- eganist 8y ago> Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless Evidently not. Their tax break in Northern Virginia was not nearly as egregious (northern VA resident here; I'm totally fine with what we're paying for what we're getting). By contrast, what they were getting for LIC was insane. And by not having anyone else lined up and by looking at the backlash over the size of the tax break, I'd be surprised if anyone else approached that amount, so it doesn't look like they'll get that tax break regardless.
- munificent 8y ago
- DigiMortal 8y agoSo what about the 25k jobs? I do notice uptick in hiring, AWS and engineering in the Denver area. But that could just be business as usual
- infocollector 8y agoNYC had brains enough to do the right thing. Why invite a monopoly that should not exist, and give it subsidies? (unless of course the governance is broken - and can not make the right decisions)
- kodablah 8y agoI think this is fantastic for both as they don't deserve each other. Residents don't want a company getting breaks and Amazon wants breaks. Amazon has plenty of other places where the residents value them more and NYC has plenty of other companies to fill the coffers/employment.
- akhilcacharya 8y agoMost polls had residents supportive of the move even with subsidies. https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-amazons-hq2-in-queens-poll/ https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-a...
- onetimemanytime 8y agoLoose, loose: Amazon would have won had they come to NYC without any subsidies but also NYC /NY would have won despite paying some subsidies. But to save face, AMZN now has to pull out of NYC that has a great pool of talent.
- chatterbeak 8y agoI don't think it's loose at all. In fact I think it would be tight if Amazon moved there.
- jotjotzzz 8y agoNYC Subway is already falling apart. Fix that first! Less corruption, and get rid of de Blasio while we're at it.
- CydeWeys 8y agoWhy would that be an either-or thing? I'd rather have Amazon here with no tax subsidies so that total tax revenue increases so that there's more money to fix the subways.
- thex10 8y ago> Why would that be an either-or thing? ask the state government, who's happy to give Amazon the tax break but not nearly so happy to fund the agencies running its largest city's transit.
- jotjotzzz 8y agoThis! They are deferring the inevitable time when the subway is no longer sustainable. Are we waiting for another Sandy?
- pzone 8y agoThe Subway is a mess primarily because of cronyism, corrupt labor unions and mismanagement on a typical, everyday "these people suck at their job" type. Fixing the MTA is important, but its problems are essentially independent of this Amazon deal.
- adjkant 8y agoDo you realize that the NYC Subway is controlled by Cuomo, not de Blasio?
- Justin_K 8y agoIf these states are so flush in cash that they can give tax breaks, they should go to small business... not the richest guy in the world. Why should government intervene in in a free market and give one business a massive advantage over everybody else?
- kevin_thibedeau 8y agoNY has multiple programs to attract small business: https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program
- elicash 8y agoWasn't the NY proposal to take $1.2 billion in Excelsior tax credits and give them to Amazon? And I think Start-Up NY is an Excelsior program? I mean, I think it's great if there's now budget to increase support for small businesses.
- supernova87a 8y agoAs much as the anti-gentrification politicians would claim a small victory, this is a loss for NYC and the future development / resilience of its economic base. Cities will keep on losing this kind of battle until some form of government or policy arises to counter the power of corporations (which are de facto increasingly taking the role of governments). Under our current regulations and incentives, I'm actually glad to see Amazon flex its political capability and teach NYC a lesson in what happens when you let vocal minority dictate public policy. Let examples like this teach us how broken our laws are. Note I am equally glad to see some day that government (federal, state) come up with policies that stop cities and states from undercutting each other to get a temporary revenue / population / popularity boost at the expense of giving away the farm just to get it (until you find out it wasn't worth it, and get to try and remember that at the next election). Or god forbid, actually create policies that in the long-term stimulate as many jobs as a corporation might in a single swoop.
- elicash 8y ago> this is a loss for NYC and the future development / resilience of its economic base. I don't see any reason to prioritize the "economic base" over the people currently living there. Those things do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. They can, but often do not. Those elected officials seem, to me, to be representing the best interests of the people who voted for them. What's best for the tax base of a certain geography is often at odds with the people currently living somewhere.
- JBReefer 8y agoLIC is essentially a neighborhood cut from whole cloth - it used to be all taxi yards and vacant warehouses, bit of high end printing. No one lived there until very recently, and the people that do are rich as fuck - it's basically a discount Midtown East. The poor people who live in the nearby projects came out strongly in _favor_ of Amazon opening up and lobbied the city hard - turns out Amazon also needs janitors, cafes etc.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bluedino 8y agoSo who are the 'State and local politicians who refuse to work with us"? Ocasio-Cortez, Gianaris, van Bramer...?
- m_ke 8y agoI wonder if Cuomo and De Blasio will try to save face by letting other companies bid on the space instead.
- CSMastermind 8y agoThat'd be hilarious
- thisisweirdok 8y agoThis Amazon process has been complete shit for every idiot city who jumped on (my city included). I call the mayor's line here to leave messages about stuff like this every time it happens and say "see, you dummies this was a bad deal" This has happened with Amazon, Casinos, GE, The Olympics, F1 racing... cities need to not be so fucking desperate to sell out their residents to the highest bidder. I'd be more amenable to a property tax increase than any of this garbage.
- throwawaymath 8y agoI wonder how the real investors who purchased Queens apartments are taking this. Those apartments tripled in price.
- Vaslo 8y agoI wonder how many speculators bought property in NY based on this proposed move, and what happens next now that they leave.
- ineedasername 8y agoI can't imagine this was simply due to a vocal minority that opposed the move. Instead, I'm more inclined to think that the powerful NY unions who were dissatisfied with the deal were seen as a long term threat: They represented a likely avenue to unionization of Amazon employees in NY that would, from Amazon's point of view, be a very dangerous precedent.
- duxup 8y agoI don't have a strong opinion one way or another. I did however love the protester's signs: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/02/14/nyregion/14nyamazon/14nyamazon-threeByTwoLargeAt2X-v2.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/02/14/nyregion/14nyamaz...
- jrochkind1 8y ago> We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville Wait, where'd Nashville come from? I thought the choices before were NoVa and NYC?
- arx1422 8y agoAn unfortunate missed chance for NYC to diversify its tax base away from a dangerous reliance on the financial sector.
- johndill 8y agogood riddance. This was a bad deal for NYC. 2-3 billion in corporate welfare to the richest man in the world who heads a company that made 10 billion in profits and paid ZERO federal income tax. Against all odds I suspect NYC will survive. Now that Cuomo has an extra 2 billion or so in his pocket maybe he can fix the transit systems that are the lifeblood of the City.
- magduf 8y ago>Now that Cuomo has an extra 2 billion or so in his pocket maybe he can fix the transit systems that are the lifeblood of the City. You actually think that's going to happen?
- gammateam 8y agoBezos practicing his pullout game sooner than I thought
- jowiar 8y agoIn addition to the pushback against the tax incentives, the cancellation of the L-Pocalypse made a massive expansion in LIC less desireable. LIC was a perfect location to recruit folks whose easy commutes from Brooklyn to Google were going to be complicated.
- hammerbrostime 8y agoThey broke up with us on Valentine's Day. Heartless.
- SCAQTony 8y agoHey, remember those Amazon insiders that bought property on the cheap? "...Amazon employees are apparently eager to get a head start on the New York City real estate game. Condo sales in Long Island City are soaring following the announcement that the Queens, New York, [a] neighborhood will host part of Amazon's HQ2, The Wall Street Journal reports. According to The Journal, one brokerage firm sold 150 units in four days last week — 15 times its usual volume — after Amazon announced plans to open a headquarters in Long Island City...." https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-buy-apartments-in-new-york-city-2018-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-buy-apartme...
- hnarn 8y agoIt rarely happens, but it's always refreshing to see when real estate investment doesn't just equal free money.
- asdff 8y agoLIC realty investment was free money even before amazon's announcements.
- acjohnson55 8y agoIt happens pretty often, actually. It's a myth that real estate is some kind of money printing machine.
- SCAQTony 8y agoAdam Smith is down with that statement too. he said it best in his book "The Wealth of Nations," published coincidentally in 1776 that a home/house/condo is not an investment: “...a dwelling-house, as such, contributes nothing to the revenue of its inhabitant. [...] and though it is, no doubt, extremely useful to him, it is as his clothes and household furniture are useful to him.” [...] If it is to be let to a tenant for rent, as the house itself can produce nothing, the tenant must always pay the rent out of some other revenue which he derives either from labor, or stock, or land. ..." (12th paragraph) https://www.bartleby.com/10/201.html https://www.bartleby.com/10/201.html My advice to my kids is that they should buy a dwelling and not live in it. Let it be an investment, let someone else pay the mortgage and the upkeep as well.
- chiefalchemist 8y agoNot to get off topic, but given all the talk about climate change and rising oceans, the LIC selection always struck me as odd. Why dig in (with a HQ2) that's so likely to be compromised by storms, rising tides, etc. Yeah. It sounds odd, but it's certainly not crazy / wrong.
- dlandis 8y agoAustin here they come. <ducks>
- RPLong 8y agoI guess I didn't realize how many commentators here were New Yorkers. XD Everyone's moving to more comfortable places with lower costs of living. NYC is not an attractive place for job candidates unless those candidates are already in NYC. Even companies with a strong presence in NYC are expanding in places like Nashville, Omaha, Dallas, Denver, etc. rather than in NYC. At some point, New Yorkers ought to ask themselves why everyone wants to move to these nice midwestern cities.
- jayess 8y agoI hope they don't. I'm happy with my low-cost midwestern town.
- ianstallings 8y agoTruth. I took a lower paying job in the midwest, and I can now save a lot more money, while also living a less stressful life. NYC is a really cool city and I enjoyed living there. But I "did my time". I think more and more tech workers are going to wake up to the fact that while mega-city life can be cool, it's not the only way to live.
- asdff 8y agoI mean the only reason why you save a lot more money now is because your current lower paying job had a better negotiated salary. You could have just as easily gotten a job with less take home pay in Omaha than in NY. I think there is something to be said about early career people rushing to NY and not realizing how much 80k really is, though. Schools should really have a class for all majors that just goes over how you calculate and compare cost of living and put a price on benefits, including the intangible benefits like having other employers you could move laterally among without planning to uproot and go 1000 miles away.
- sotojuan 8y agoI’m not sure why tech workers think they’re special. Almost everyone that moves to NYC for a good office job goes through this. Moving to a suburb or another city after age 35 is a stereotype. So is staying here and enjoying a DINK or single life (unless you have a lot of money!). Job-wise, the NYC tech market is as good as ever.
- YeahSureWhyNot 8y agoGreat news! The richest man in the world and his company should have to play by the same rules as the rest of business in New York. Gotta love New Yorkers for their no BS attitude.
- barkingcat 8y agoMy guess is they are using NYC as the hammer to get concessions from their 2nd choice that they've been negotiating with behind the scenes.
- pointillistic 8y agoIn this story I am only sorry for people who bought up all the real estate around the future campus, ouch! Remember all the "insider trading" condo purchases, just before the announcement, that is going to hurt...
- orblivion 8y agoI saw leftie Twitter refer to it as "insider gentrification" which I thought was a hilarious and clever observation.
- ErikAugust 8y agoNo paywalls, or use of JavaScript (for that matter): https://beta.trimread.com/articles/44 https://beta.trimread.com/articles/44
- danschumann 8y agoCome to my town of Oshkosh, WI. We have some of the highest rates of drunk people.. I mean.. uh.. we have lakes!
- fallingfrog 8y agoWhat needs to happen now is that we need to use the Commerce Clause to make it illegal for a company to cut this type of deal with a city or state in the first place. It just creates a race to the bottom where cities have no choice to subsidize corporate bottom lines with taxpayer money or else have businesses leave.
- allengeorge 8y agoIt’s a negotiating tactic.
- raldi 8y agoThis will strengthen Amazon's hand in negotiations with any other region. Politicians in Virginia, Nashville, and elsewhere will say, "We don't want what happened to Long Island City to happen to us; let's capitulate more!"
- wwarner 8y agoThis is really tragic and foolish. The taxes generated will far far outweigh the tax incentives offered. The local city politicians reversed their positions because they didn't get to bring up their pet projects in the negotiation phase. There is absolutely no reason why the city couldn't use new revenue to protect low income residents from dislocation. It's not a corporate scam -- this is real economic progress for a city with a 43% poverty rate.
- jayess 8y agoI find it amusing to watch the political class eat its own on this one.
- imsodrunklol 8y agoDallas is waiting yall.
- rb808 8y agoIts a sad day for NYC I think. The only exception to that is Queens, I agree its not great to put a corporate office there, it should have gone to Manhattan like every other big office building.
- srkmno 8y agoCommies and NIMBY-types just deprived people who actually work for a living the opportunity of a lifetime.
- cletus 8y agoSo this was (IMHO) a shit show from go to whoa. The dog and pony show was a transparent shakedown where Amazon would still probably go where they were always going to go. The whole splitting HQ2 I think showed this. Like it's not even an "HQ" in any sense of the word. It's just an expansion. Also with talk of "25k jobs"... what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers? There's a difference. I don't know the inner workings of this but it seems like Cuomo was the driver here with de Blasio on board. This was a missed opportunity. NYC needs several things from NYS that are politically unpalatable upstate. Top of that list is: - Property tax reform; and - Congestion pricing. NYS grossly favours SFHs for property taxes. For example, a $3m brownstone in Park Slope I saw had ~$700/month in property taxes. A similarly priced apartment would have more like $1500-2000/month taxes. A $100m apartment would be taxed at ~$15k/month. NYC has on several occasions tried to introduce congestion pricing on people driving in or into Manhattan (something I 100% support) but the efforts have failed as this is the jurisdiction of NYS and NYS has no interest in this (so far). Why not frame this issue as NYC supporting these efforts to fix issues with NYC like these? The deal may have gotten much more traction were this the case. So I understand the need for government intervention in large projects, say if Amazon were to build 8m sq ft of office space. Regulatory approval can be nigh on impossible. That much office space is hard to find in NYC. I think Amazon missed the boat with Hudson Yards (probably the last place this would've been possible in Manhattan). I agree with other commenters that the net effect of this is about zero. Amazon is trying to have a PR moment. They'll still expand in NYC as it suits their needs. They'll still get tax breaks like any large corporation in NYS/NYC would. This really is just a corporate tantrum.
- quxbar 8y ago> what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers? Workers with an average salary of $150,000, I think it's disingenuous to act like you don't know that but you're also an expert in property tax reform.
- cletus 8y agoPay one person a salary of $1m and you can pay 9 people $55k to average $150k. The average means nothing. Will there some site lead earning $20m/year bringing up the average?
- rsuelzer 8y agoI don't understand why these tech companies love building headquarters in areas where property prices are unaffordable even for their own high paid workers.
- objektif 8y agoI feel like considering all this is very shortsighted of city people who objected to this.
- FilterSweep 8y ago2018: Billions in tax breaks to amazon will add thousands of jobs 2021: After hitting 2020 growth targets, Amazon quietly lays off 5000 It’s not like we haven’t seen this before.
- ajhurliman 8y agoHave we? It seems like the number of employees has increased every year: https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-...
- sjg007 8y agoCome to the Twin cities, plenty of land, lots of tech already, highly educated work force. Lots of lake houses and downtown is booming. Winter isn't that bad.
- protomyth 8y agoWinter isn't that bad. Have you been there this year? It was -26F without the wind chill a couple of weeks ago. Come for the cold weather and stay for the high taxes and high housing prices on the St. Paul side. Also, traffic is going to be fun on the west side for a couple of years.
- sjg007 8y agoLol.. I live there. Polar vortex and all.. and that vortex impacted most of the country. The flip side is that houses are pretty cheap. You can buy in most brackets in almost any area you want to live in. Taxes aren't that bad. Cost of living is cheap. Summers are great.
- protomyth 8y agoWhich side do you live on, the houses on the east side are up there. Taxes are that bad. I lived there for over a decade, and my family is still there.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jpochtar 8y agoThis move will keep more tech in SF and not in NYC, beyond just Amazon. For every Amazon we lose, we lose 50 startups to the valley. I can't believe NY politicians let this happen.
- itry2develop 8y agoDetroit played the same socialist games with big business and see where that got them....
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jgalt212 8y agoThe Davos crowd hates this news. And for that reason this is great news, and great news in general for clamping down on cronyism.
- throwawaysea 8y agoAmazon is making the right decision to pull out. Given the political opposition, flip-flopping from politicians who previously supported the deal, and activist fervor, there is just too much risk in committing to NY and NYC. The losers will be residents of NY and NYC. This would have been a huge win for them, with massive job creation and tax revenue increases well in excess of what it costs. That revenue could have helped improve services across the city. Note that Amazon did not provide projections on economic impact or tax revenues or other aspects here. The city and state made those promises, based on economic analyses they commissioned (and likely used in their negotiations). It includes things like taxes from the additional jobs and businesses that will be created outside of Amazon. All but $505m of the ~$3b in subsidies here would have come from programs that already existed in NY State and NYC (Excelsior, ICAP, and REAP). Would you give up $3b over 10 years (and just $505m above programs that are broadly available) to attract business that will provide an incremental $28B in new tax revenue and $186B in GSP over 25 years? That is a _tremendous_ ROI, the kind that typically does not exist in the market, and a $505m capital grant (the primary Amazon-specific concession) was a small price to secure it. The 9:1 return they projected on this deal was the best such program NY State and NYC would have ever run, and possibly the best such deal ever across the country. To put it into context, the Film Tax Credit program had a 1.15:1 ROI. We can argue all day about whether the HQ2 search was a bluff or sham or whatever, but there is no reasonable claim to certainty here - and hence negotiation enters the picture to turn something uncertain (Amazon MAY come to NYC) into certain (Amazon WILL come to NYC). Here are the quotes from the original HQ2 press release on the economic benefits: > The construction is expected to create an average of 1300 direct construction jobs annually through 2033. Overall, the project is estimated to create more than 107,000 total direct and indirect jobs, over $14 billion in new tax revenue for the State and a net of $13.5 billion in City tax revenue over the next 25 years. The project provides a 9:1 return on investment. > According to an economic impact study by REMI, Inc., a world leader in dynamic forecasting and policy analysis, the Amazon project will generate over $186 billion in Gross State Product for the New York State economy over the initial 25 years. REMI also projects over $14 billion in total new tax revenue for the State (in 2019 dollars), with annual revenues growing from $10.8 million in 2019 to nearly $1 billion in 2043. The City forecasts $13.5 billion in total new tax revenue. https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de-blasio-announce-amazon-selects-long-island-city-new-corporate https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de... The ROI here is well beyond any other conceivable option. It is so large that even if projections of a 9:1 ROI are way off, it would be a big win. Also, most of the subsidy to Amazon is not an up-front lump sum. Rather, most of it takes the form of credits for prior actions. For example, they would get tax credits for job creation in the prior year incrementally, based on what they actually delivered. Taking all this into account, this would have been a super safe path to greater tax revenues, which would have improved the city/state as a whole. I hope as a next step Amazon considers cities in other parts of the country, away from blue coastal cities. Economic revitalization across a broader slice of the political/ideological/cultural spectrum can only be a good thing.
- AzzieElbab 8y agoVictory!!! Now, wtf did we win?
- dmode 8y agoIn a way this is good as we need to stop this race to bottom with government subsidies. Amazon should be expanding in NYC not because of some handouts, but because of the talent it has to offer. Also, Amazon's statement that they are not doing a HQ2 search really underscores what I always suspected - the dog and pony show is about maximizing handout for a natural increase in satellite office headcount
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoWell, now all those people who bought property ahead of the move will have to try and sell.
- rexreed 8y agoAs someone from the N. Virginia region I think this is a huge win for our region. And I think it will do great things to continue the grow the region's technical strength. I'm glad they can focus on building a single larger HQ and not two equal HQs, which always seemed odd to me anyways. NYC is not too far on the Acela line to DC. And this might spur development of more high speed rail or hyperloops or whatever.
- skiw 8y agoQuestion: What does everybody think this might mean for the Crystal City VA area (i.e. the DMV)? The article said they plan to continue on as planned. Does anybody think that Amazon pulling out of NYC will make their impact on the DMV greater or would it probably be the same as if they had HQ2's both places?
- dandersh 8y agoHopefully seeing someone (even as well off as NYC is) push back against showering taxpayer dollars on a company of Amazon's stature will lead to a reevaluation of taxpayer subsidization for corporate relocation/expansion.
- ashelmire 8y agoI started to get that impression when I, as an east coast dev, started getting hit up by Amazon recently... for jobs in Seattle and SF. But not New York.
- aeriklawson 8y agoAmazon is being a huge diva. They enjoy public support and the deal was guaranteed. I remain unconvinced that they care about local politicians' angry takes on their campus (who they probably expected to hate it in the first place).
- BucketSort 8y agoJust like Bezos pulls out his member for photos.
- Schnitz 8y agoGood riddance
- trumped 8y agoamazon should be pulled from all of of their projects...
- JDiculous 8y agoAs someone who lived in NYC for 5 years, I can't understand how anyone can not consider this a loss to NYC. Don't get me wrong I hate corporate welfare as much as anyone else and I have no desire to work for Amazon because it seems like a corporate sweatshop, but 25k jobs at an average $100k+ salary would've been a boon to the city, even despite the $3 billion in tax subsidies. The additional revenue for workers and taxes would've been a huge boost to the economy and would've more than paid for itself. The jobs would've been in Long-Island City, which is basically a glass tower condo ghost town with practically no office/business presence. The subway for people commuting into LIC for work is probably currently fairly empty, so the subway could accommodate them. (The same cannot be said of the reverse. Commuting from Astoria, Queens or Williamsburg, Brooklyn into Manhattan for work during rush hour is horrible). I agree that politicians need to do a better job of accommodating those who are displaced by gentrification. NYC housing costs are insane (as someone else mentioned we undertax single-family homes and $100m penthouses), the subway is failing, etc. Perhaps the deal would've gone through had politicians better communicated how the $3 billion subsidy package was not just a handout to Amazon but would actually improve the city and the well-being of its residents. But given the city's failure to build affordable housing (not the "affordable housing" buzzword where luxury apartments are subsidized to low income people who enter a lottery, but doesn't actually meaningfully increase affordable housing stock) and fix the subway, maybe the city isn't capable of managing itself and stemming the pitfalls of gentrification, and so the opposition was fired up by this awareness. It seems that so long as fundamental aspects of NYC like its subway system are managed by NY State, we will never see any meaningful change at anything more than a snails-pace. Perhaps NYC should be fighting for independence from NY State to be in full control of its own destiny rather than being at the mercy of politicians in Albany with a poor track record of attending to the city's needs. (sorry I got derailed there a bit, just a stream of thought)
- Voloskaya 8y ago> "maybe the city isn't capable of managing itself and stemming the pitfalls of gentrification" You seem to understand pretty well why some are not seeing this as a loss after all.
- 8y ago
- linkmotif 8y agoIdeology triumphs over reason. Big loser here is New York City. Amazon will get its tax break somewhere else.
- kingkawn 8y agoTry to bulldoze your way through community politics in NYC and get your ass handed back to you, every time. The only person who successfully circumvented NYC politics was Mike Bloomberg, and that was solely a result of his personal charity giving over $600 million in donations to different community orgs and non-profits over the course of his mayoral tenure.
- perseusprime11 8y agoWhere are they going next? Will that decision be a new contest?
- ummonk 8y agoGood. One-off corporate subsidies are basically corruption and create an uneven playing field. Crony capitalism at its worst.
- SethMurphy 8y agoThe Allowance of a helicopter pad shows how tone deaf the proposal was. Never mind the safety issues of a helicopter flying over a heavily populated area, the noise of one was such an issue in Brooklyn that they banned any flights over land as a quality of life issue (other than police or news helicopters I think). They still come close enough to the land that they are a nuisance if you live near or enjoy the new publicly accessible waterfront areas. EDIT: Apparently there were limits placed on 120 landings a year and it was on the waterfront campus mitigating some of the safety concerns. It was still a major concession given though that does nothing I can think of to add to the community.
- zw123456 8y agoThis reminds me of the asshole billionaires who shake down cities to get a free stadium for their stupid football, basketball or whatever team and have a bunch of regular people pay for their toy.
- stevespang 8y agoBezos was really pissed about all the union saber rattling in NY, there was really no doubt it would eventually be unionized at a great loss to his operation, Bezos says "No thanks, chumps"
- tareqak 8y agoUnion leader says Amazon had agreed to a framework of a deal with state and union officials to salvage plans for its NYC HQ a day before its cancellation - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-14/amazon-was-holding-talks-wednesday-to-make-nyc-deal-happen https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-14/amazon-wa...
- Lidador 8y agoWho is John Galt?
- EGreg 8y agoGood. Why do the good people of NYC need to be taxed just so their taxes can be given as corporate welfare to a large corporation that will then come and organize other New Yorkers’ activities in such a way that money is siphoned out of the city? If we want to create jobs, we don’t need a giant corporation using our tax money to help organize this human activity. We can hire each other for our own local purposes. If we want to keep NYC rich then we don’t exploit the labor of the local population to send money out of the city. The biggest US export by far is Dollars, ever since Bretton Woods they are in demand all around the world. We trade them for stuff others make. It has made Americans lazy and fat. Do you really want jobs? Like race-to-the-bottom Amazon warehouse slave jobs? Is that the goal of humans? No. It’s just fed to them. Donald Trump said he’ll keep the jobs in this country. Bernie said he’ll keep the money in this country by preventing corporations and billionaires from offshoring it through loopholes. I know which goal I’d prefer, if I wanted Americans to be the masters and not the slaves. (I happen to believe that money going to poorer areas is good, so I don’t hold that nationalistic position - but if I did, I would want the money to stay, not jobs.)
- zxcvbn4038 8y agoSome practical considerations that nobody talks about are 1) the 7 train that would have served Amazon's HQ2 location would be hard pressed to accommodate 25,000 additional riders. The 7 train is notorious for delays whenever there is in-climate weather - for at least the past twenty years the slightest precipitation knocks out the signal system and the segment connecting to manhattan shuts down every alternate weekend and whenever the weather is in-climate for maintenance. 2) housing in the area if at capacity so not sure where they think 25,000 additional people are going to live 3) schools in the area are over capacity so not sure where they think the kids of the 25,000 extra people were going to go. I've also observed that Amazon employees live in utter terror of being out of contact - I'm under the impression that missing a support call results in immediate termination - and there are numerous dead spots within the city and along commuter corridors where you will be out of contact for prolonged periods of time.
- acjohnson55 8y agoGood for NYC, good for Nashville.
- codyb 8y agoGood riddance. It irks me to no end that our system is set up to reward the largest and the wealthiest. NYC should have prepared a package for Amazon and said "this is what we'll guarantee in breaks to small business owners if you come here". I didn't even think it was a particularly bad deal all things considered, I just hate the idea. Meanwhile, half of NYC and the country is wondering what NYC will do without 25,000 jobs. Or before that, wondering how the housing market could possibly bear it. 25,000 people, a ton of whom were already living in NYC (thats why they wanted to come) was going to be barely a ripple. The whole thing was a sham. People were way overstating the affect it'd have, and NYC needs better subways, not more tech jobs (or both in conjunction).
- samuelyoussif 8y agoIMO, Corporates are not evil per se. How it is run, and by whom is the question. America was built on the progression and opportunity of both economical and social high fluency. Stepping on the breaks of the progress of the largest economy, doesn't only heart the US, it heart all the western economies which have trusted and followed that example. If the problem is that Amazon has made a mistake, punish the act and collect the taxes that should have been collected. Don't step on the neck of the economical progress, please.
- samstave 8y agoThere was a story in the past about AWS employees buying apartments in NYC before NYC was announced... I wonder what happened to those apartments?
- QuantumGood 8y agoThis is the same thing that happened to the Mall of America many years ago. It was extremely welcomed, then opposition, and it got scaled down considerably and lost some benefits the state was offering.
- sharno 8y agoI just don't understand why it's so hard to go build such a huge head quarters in a semi-big city that's close to a big one. They get all the benefits of having talent nearby, they get to use good enough infrastructure. Businesses definitely will flourish around, lots of people and companies would be moving into this city just because of the flourish
- chmaynard 8y agoIn 2016, I relocated from Silicon Valley to southern Rhode Island to build and reside in a new custom home. Over the next two years, I probably injected up to $1M into the local economy. I didn't expect or receive any special treatment from the local government. I didn't go to local officials and threaten to relocate elsewhere unless they gave me incentives, tax breaks, concessions, enticements, zoning variances, etc. In my opinion, the type of special treatment that New York offered Amazon is fundamentally anti-democratic and just plain wrong.