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It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. That's not how these things work. This is like the first stone
by jacquesm 10mo ago
It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. That's not how these things work. This is like the first stone of an avalanche. It could stop here, or it could roll on for quite a while. It will take months or even years to know whether or not the outcome here was desirable or not and what the final tally is.
Remember the 'Arab spring' and what came after.
- paulcole 10mo agoWho is already seeing this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day?
- markus_zhang 10mo agoI think it has been like this forever, since the beginning of human civilization.
- lvspiff 10mo agoYep - That group of people have something we want (gold, spices, women, revenge or the ever classic we want to replace their religion with ours) and for the last 30 years especially now oil and minerals appear to be on the menu
- random9749832 10mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent
- oefrha 10mo agoExcept they didn’t even bother to manufacture consent this time? Or did a very lousy job of it.
- tyre 10mo agoYeah it’s surprising how little justification there’s been for this. As a well-read US citizen, I don’t actually know why we did this. Was it for oil? Socialism bad? To stop drugs? I think you latter is the narrative I’m most familiar with. Immigration would be the most logical, since this administration and political base care a lot about that, but I don’t think they’ve drawn a clear line between economic success and emigration. Logic isn’t exactly a cornerstone for these idiots. I’m guessing we did it to flex and distract from our own economy, but usually there is at least some pushed narrative for why America did the thing?
- christophilus 10mo agoIt’s always oil. And trying to cripple anyone who was making deals with Venezuela.
- plorg 10mo agoGiven Rubio's role, "communism bad" seems the most coherent explanation. He's been on this beat for a long time.
- danenania 10mo agoI think it’s just realpolitik grand chessboard strategy. Knocking out an unfriendly/uncooperative leader of a strategically important country. That’s always been the real justification for US foreign policy. It’s a game of risk, without moral considerations beyond optics. There isn’t much more to it than that. You can be socialist if you cooperate. You can be a dictator if you cooperate. It’s not about political philosophy or forms of government, just playing ball with the hegemon.
- intalentive 10mo agoGeopolitically the US has abandoned world hegemony and is consolidating in the western hemisphere. Venezuela has massive oil reserves and its leadership has been anti-Zionist since Chavez. It’s a juicy target close to home, been a thorn for decades, and not as prickly as Iran or Yemen. But you’re right, it’s noteworthy they are not attempting to sell interventionism to the public anymore. 15 years ago they’d have staged a color revolution and gone with the populist uprising narrative. They seem to have dropped the narcoterrorist narrative already. The use of raw force without moral justification is a sign of decline. The Twitter right is trying to sell this as an imperial / Nietzschean triumph but few are going to buy it.
- random9749832 10mo agoVenezuela has been linked to the fentanyl crisis. "The Trump administration has described strikes on vessels in the Caribbean and eastern Pacific as attacks against terrorists attempting to bring fentanyl and cocaine to the US. However, fentanyl is produced mainly in Mexico and reaches the US almost exclusively via land through its southern border."
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- jacquesm 10mo agoThe 'wars on drugs' and the 'war on terror' have been abused many times in the past to just do whatever person 'x' wanted to do anyway. See also: National security.
- ModernMech 10mo agoYou have to remember Trump is an adjudicated rapist. It makes sense he wouldn't consider consent important.
- sigwinch 10mo agoI think Trump got the news a bit late.
- finghin 10mo agoWatching BBC news earlier, two interviewees were acolytes of Venuzuelan politician and exile Maria Corina Machado, who recently received the Nobel Peace Prize, and Juan Guaidó, the former American-backed coup (or whatever you want to call it) leader. They were adamantly pro-Maduro getting helicoptered away, but somewhat neutral on bombings on their own capital city. I think the consent factory is still making porkie pies.
- jacquesm 10mo agoThey'll have it sorted by prime time.
- adolph 10mo ago> exile Maria Corina Machado Machado seems to be the opposite of an exile until she escaped to accept the Nobel Peace Prize last month. Machado was prohibited from leaving Venezuela by a decade-old government-imposed travel ban and, by late 2025, had spent months in hiding amid the risk of arrest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Corina_Machado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Corina_Machado
- hearsathought 10mo agoThe media has been branding maduro a narco-terrorist for a while now. And trump has declared fentanyl a weapon of mass destruction and exclusively blamed venezuela for it. The establishment has a playbook and they stick to it. Let's not forget the nobel committee gave a "peace prize" to a woman advocating for war against venezuela. > Or did a very lousy job of it. It's more obvious than lousy.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- embedding-shape 10mo ago> It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. What gives you that impression? I haven't seen a single comment that is surprised or wasn't aware of the existing history between the two nations, nor a single comment saying that "Ok, I'm glad/sad that that's over now". What comments specifically are you talking about?
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- mikkupikku 10mo agoThere is plenty of talk in MIGA/MAGA circles that say, in effect, that Venezuelans have now been liberated, there will be no occupation, and other related assumptions / coping mechanisms which they are using to preserve the facade of Trump being anti-war.
- zppln 10mo agoMIGA?
- mikkupikku 10mo ago[flagged]
- metadope 10mo agoMy favorite computer was a MIGA
- febusravenga 10mo agoMake India Great Again, something coined early 2025 around Modi's visit in US. According to brief we search.
- archy_ 10mo agoI've also seen it stand for Make Israel Great Again, given the unwavering support for Netanyahu and his agenda from the administration
- master_crab 10mo agoWhat?!? Not end in one day? Nonsense! Soon you will be telling me the Taliban still run Kabul.
- agumonkey 10mo agoNot to disagree but venezuela's context is different from the middle east, and this was made so quickly it might cause a stable swap. Now that's just my bedroom geostrategist wannabee opinion and yeah it might create a long mess, especially knowing trump emotional profile, if things don't benefit him quick, he might add oil to the fire thinking he's the smartest.
- jacquesm 10mo agoThe guy that partially demolished the universal symbol of the United States abroad (the White House, in case that wasn't clear) and tends to not have a plan beyond the next meal would really surprise me if he had contingency plans in place for if this backfires somehow. Right now it is a toss up, it could go any way from here. The one thing that is a given is that kidnapping foreign heads of state - no matter how despicable - is now on the menu. I'm pretty sure that this isn't the last time we see this. And the pretexts are unconvincing given how Trump dealt with that other drug dealer. I'm guessing Maduro didn't want to play ball more than anything, this feels very personal.
- agumonkey 10mo agoyeah, it seems there's a race for autocrats to establish dominance, they're all somehow power hungry and rules/gloves are off.
- ergocoder 10mo ago> It could stop here, or it could roll on for quite a while. It will take months or even years to know whether or not the outcome here was desirable or not and what the final tally is. So, your prediction is "anything is possible". I gotta say nobody can disagree with that.
- mikkupikku 10mo agoAdmitting that you don't know is often the most intellectual mature position to take. The world is in a chaotic circumstance right now, there's a sense of this being just the start of something far more horrifying, but anybody telling you they have a crystal ball is lying.
- ergocoder 10mo ago> Admitting that you don't know is often the most intellectual mature position to take. It's actually more like grandstanding to satify oneself emotionally. It's "I am right" esque type of answer because "anything can happen" is always true. The statement can be omitted because it literally adds nothing to any discussion. > but anybody telling you they have a crystal ball is lying. Then, we can add to a discussion saying which part might not be true, which assumption is incorrect, and etc. Nobody would predict anything with 100% confidence. You make that up and state "anything can happen"-type of statement to satisfy yourself emotionally. If those people were that sure about their predictions, they would bet on polymarket and become a billionaire already.
- pqtyw 10mo agoConsidering the extreme amount of crime and violence that currently exists in Venesuela removing it's government without being able to put anything in its place will not be pretty at all... Without a full military occupation it might just turn into another Haiti just on a much bigger scale. Of course US will probably have to intervene to "secure" the oil industry...
- drtgh 10mo agoVenezuelan Vice President Delcy Rodriguez is in charge, so nothing is gonna change for Venezuelan citizens. Oil industry in Venezuela is Chinese, or for China, this is not gonna change either. What we are seeing here is a show, or may be also more related to Venezuela being a narco-state.
- pqtyw 10mo ago> Vice President Delcy Rodriguez is in charge Today. She's still part of the same regime and party. It's not obvious Trump will let her stay in charge. Also the control the government had over the criminal gangs/syndicates/cartels was seemingly very weak anyway. Even if the current decapitated regime is allowed to stay it won't be very strong.
- jacquesm 10mo ago> It's not obvious Trump will let her stay in charge. What's he going to do, kidnap her? Oh, wait.
- ExoticPearTree 10mo agoLow level officials can be eliminated through missile strikes. If if had to guess, Maduro could have been take out with a GBU or two, but the US holds a grudge against him so they took him out to humiliate him, and send a message to others.
- ethbr1 10mo ago
- notahacker 10mo agoAnd apart from the usual destabilisation possibilities, with the current US leadership there's no guarantee the outcome isn't Maduro agreeing to pay some oil revenues into Trump's personal bank account, makes some vague symbolic promise to stop drugs and emigrants and gets released to carry on as he was, but maybe with a few more internal scores to settle
- jacquesm 10mo agoI definitely would not rule that out. This is very specific. I wonder how well Mark Carney sleeps tonight.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- foogazi 10mo ago> there's no guarantee the outcome isn't Maduro agreeing to pay some oil revenues into Trump's personal bank account Too late, Maduro is in custody - that bargain is for the next Venezuelan president to make
- jacquesm 10mo agoStranger things have happened. After a chat with the capo di tutti capi he may come to new insights.
- rayiner 10mo agoYup. Bangladesh’s government was toppled last year. With at least the tacit support of the Biden administration. Now the formerly banned Islamist is running #2 in the polls and looks like they will be part of a coalition government.
- sigwinch 10mo agoI’m not sure we can compare US involvement between Venezuela and Bangladesh. It is interesting that Nobel prizes are involved in both.
- rayiner 10mo agoI’m not saying the U.S. overtly toppled Bangladesh’s government. I’m agreeing with the part about “be careful what you wish for.” What follows a revolution is usually worse.
- sigwinch 10mo agoAh, this we agree on. I see revolutions as a net negative and it’s often an early propaganda point to frame it otherwise.
- softwaredoug 10mo agoWell it’s even simpler than that on paper. The government has a succession plan. Most likely outcome: Maduros party stays in power It may actually mean next to nothing geopolitically other than to outrage the rest of the world and make Trump look tough.
- johannes1234321 10mo ago> make Trump look tough. But only to his loyalists.
- Spooky23 10mo agoExactly. Delivering freedom to Venezuela will get the splintering aspects of his tribe focused on the message and away from Epstein. The people he needs at home are pretty simple. This type of thing makes it easier for his loyal propagandists to do their thing.
- rfrey 10mo agoI thought his loyalists were expressly against protecting foreigners from oppression, e.g. Ukraine? America first etc.
- sigwinch 10mo agoThis will be a real challenge, then. Who is performatively nimble enough to say “we’ve always been at war with Venezuela!”
- mindslight 10mo agoRemember in his first term how he had his loyalists, many of who were expressly in "support" of the 2nd amendment, cheering on the government jackboots who came in the middle of the night to make "cold dead hands" ? The cultists will believe anything. That's the fundamental problem with cults.
- Spooky23 10mo ago
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- dstroot 10mo agoOr Afghanistan
- moralestapia 10mo ago"Events in the present determine events in the future". Very deep observation. Maduro had to be removed, this is a win for Venezuela. On one side he's a criminal, on the other side people at the country are cheering for this [1]. He didn't even win the most recent election. I'll write that again, he was not elected. I haven't seen a convincing argument about why it would have been better if he remained in power. 1: https://x.com/SofyCasas_/status/2007455810884886992 https://x.com/SofyCasas_/status/2007455810884886992
- jacquesm 10mo agoPeople were asking for an example of such attitudes on HN, thank you for providing one. All of the reasons you list apply to many world leaders, legitimately elected or not. You must be ecstatic about the pardon of Hernández then.
- moralestapia 10mo ago>All of the reasons you list apply to many world leaders, legitimately elected or not. That's correct. One at a time, I'd say. :)
- stickfigure 10mo ago> legitimately elected or not Let's just focus on the not-legitimately-elected ones. Venezuela was a functioning democracy until Maduro took control through force and fraud. Shed not one tear for him.
- jacquesm 10mo agoI won't. That still doesn't mean this is over by a long shot. My bet is on the oil with a side dish of Epstein distraction. At least the latter seems to have worked. Wouldn't it be too bad if Venezuela actually gets to decide who they want to deal with regarding their oil and they pick France, the UK or China...
- wsatb 10mo ago> I haven't seen a convincing argument about why it would have been better if he remained in power. You're way off base here. No one is arguing that he should be in power. It's the way it was done. You're also ignoring a very important question: now what? Sorry, but the last year has not inspired confidence that this administration knows what it's doing.
- orbital-decay 10mo agoOr... nothing will change at all. See the Fordow strike: attack another country, pull out unexpectedly, and pretend nothing ever happened.
- jacquesm 10mo agoOh, something changed there. Iran's attitude towards nuclear weapons has changed considerably, and none for the better. They're a deal with Pakistan or Russia away from achieving that.
- int0x2e 10mo agoIran was well on that path anyway. The US strike absolutely did turn Iran from a peaceful actor with no interest in nuclear weapons into a regime bent on acquiring nuclear weapons.
- lukan 10mo agoThey did not capture the Iranian leadership, though.
- roughly 10mo agoAmericans have remarkably short attention spans. In 5 years when Iran is widely acknowledged to have nuclear weapons, you’ll know what changed after Fordrow.
- mihaaly 10mo agoConsidering all the recent meddling of the USA around the world their track record is pretty bad. Higher chance it will end worse than they began with. Worse on an unpredictable way.
- IG_Semmelweiss 10mo agoThis is the Ron Paul position and its a solid one. The non-intervention principle applies if you are not actively suffering intervention. The flaw however, is that applying non-intervention in this instance, is choosing to ignore the real, direct hurt currently endured by non-actors (LATAM + US citizens) from the policies of Maduro. I do concede that whatever follows Maduro, may be worse. If I'm getting poked by a neighbor for years and i finally punch back, punching is a valid response. If the neighbor then comes back later and shoots me with a gun, it doesn't mean that my self-defense act was invalid.
- jacquesm 10mo agoThat way lies madness.
- lostlogin 10mo agoIf anyone else is like me and unfamiliar with Ron Paul’s views, they are listed in his wiki. He sounds insufferable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul
- Teever 10mo agoIt isn't necessarily just a non-interventionist stance. Someone could be taking this position in this situation because they're highly skeptical that the Americans involved in this have the ability or desire to proceed in a way that will result in a minimum of casualities or in a way that will bring about real democractic change to the region. People want an Eisenhower doing these kinds of things, not whoever is doing currently doing it.
- CamperBob2 10mo agoAnd look what happened when Eisenhower did it in Iran.
- throwaway0123_5 10mo ago> Someone could be taking this position in this situation because they're highly skeptical that the Americans involved in this have the ability or desire to proceed in a way that will result in a minimum of casualities or in a way that will bring about real democractic change to the region. > People want an Eisenhower doing these kinds of things Why would people who don't want Trump doing it want an Eisenhower doing it? He helped overthrow democratically elected Árbenz in Guatemala with even weaker justifications than Trump overthrowing Maduro (Maduro at least seems to lack popular support and probably cheated in elections). Eisenhower: Overthrow of Árbenz to protect fruit company profits > series of military dictators > 30+ years of civil war where the US-backed government committed a genocide against Maya people
- dismalaf 10mo agoThe Arab world is different because the people are largely fundamentalist and there's many extremists while the governments are relatively moderate. So get rid of the government and all the extremists take over. Venezuela is Catholic and while it definitely has crime issues, there's no religious/fundamentalist element to the violence so the odds of anyone fighting to the death to support their failed dictator and his ideology is slim to none.
- varjag 10mo agoWhich government was relatively moderate? Gaddhafi who threatened to slaughter the rebellious cities block to block on TV? Assad who did just that and gassed his own people for a good measure? The indecision of the international community to act is what caused the suffering lasting a decade, led to the rise of ISIS and refugee crisis of enormous proportions.
- dismalaf 10mo ago> Which government was relatively moderate? Gaddhafi who threatened to slaughter the rebellious cities block to block on TV? Assad who did just that and gassed his own people for a good measure? Both of them were more moderate than ISIS lol. But yeah, Egypt is more moderate than the Muslim brotherhood. Jordan is moderate. The non-Hezbollah part of Lebanon. UAE, Qatar, Oman all quite moderate. The Saudis are even secularizing a tad to try calming down fundamentalist sentiment. All these states actively suppress Islamism and generally are pro-west.
- varjag 10mo agoNone of them where Arab Spring had struggled were "moderate", this is ridiculous. Assad has caused death of over 600k people (by the time they stopped counting in 2019). And ISIS is a natural consequence of these secular (if you can call personality cults even that) dictatorships lasting decades.
- dismalaf 10mo ago
- Zenst 10mo agoReports that Maria Corina Machado (peace prize winner) will be the next leader - so that is a good sign. I've also seen many reports and videos of locals celebrating.
- impossiblefork 10mo agoI don't think that's likely. The current president is Maduro's VP.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- pelorat 10mo agoNot a chance in hell. The regime is 100% intact. Maria Corina Machado would be executed the moment she lands. A complete military takeover will follow the ousting of Maduro.
- basisword 10mo agoI know nothing about her but worth pointing out that 'peace prize winner' is irrelevant. Aung San Suu Kyi won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1991. She has since presided over ethnic cleansing.
- lvspiff 10mo agoWe essentially took out the Venezuelan version of Trump. There are still the cabinet, remaining military leaders, courts, representatives, even down to governors and mayors who all profited from the current setup who are not going to be willing to just roll over cause the US supports someone
- elktown 10mo agoThese threads makes it depressingly obvious how "might makes right" is the main underlying principle in the end - albeit periodically latent. Suddenly proportionality disappears and it's one of the worst regimes out there, a narco-state. Obviously unlawful actions is reported as "legally questionable" etc. It doesn't even matter that the current US administration is an unusually vulgar example of erratic, dishonest, and self-serving leadership.
- codingbot3000 10mo agoMaduro making himself dictator was also a "might makes right" move tbh.
- inglor_cz 10mo agohow "might makes right" is the main underlying principle in the end This is not surprising, this is how society ultimately works, even internally, not just on international scale. I live in a democracy. I could still name several laws of the land that I consider fundamentally unjust, but the might of the majority translated into political and physical power means that I have to obey them, right or wrong. It is better that this power is controlled democratically and not by a single autocrat or a single ruling party, but it is still fundamentally coercion. Are there even any alternatives? Ultimately we cannot all agree on what is right for everyone.
- elktown 10mo agoMy point was to highlight the double standards of this kind of after-the-fact reporting and discussions. I'm cynical enough to know that "might makes right" is a part of life to various degrees.
- SilverElfin 10mo agoNeither Trump nor the GOP cares about the stability of the country or the health of its citizens. They care about distracting from problems (Epstein, affordability, etc) and about how they can extract Venezuela’s oil and minerals so they can make billions off this theft https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-22/oil-gold-and-rare-earth-elements-the-backdrop-to-us-political-tension-with-venezuela.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-22/oil-gold... As long as they can protect the mining and refining operations the rest doesn’t matter. And I fully expect the America First, America Only group that claims to be the next thing after MAGA, to find ways to justify this regime change and corruption.
- croes 10mo agoRemember the end of Saddam and what came after that.
- tirant 10mo agoVery different interventions and very different countries. Venezuela was a prosperous, serious and fully democratic country before Maduro and their predecessors took over.
- basisword 10mo ago>> Trump also said he believes that American companies will be “heavily involved” in rebuilding Venezuela’s oil infrastructure.[1] There we have it. The real reason for the invasion. Looks like the start of yet another avalanche as you say. Jan 6th, extrajudicial killings, ICE deportations, threatening to takeover Greenland, and now the kidnap of a foreign country's leader. The world needs to wake up and realise the USA is just China/Russia with better PR. Edit: And now he's confirmed the US will run the country until they decide otherwise. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c5yqygxe41pt https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c5yqygxe41pt
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- empirebuilder 10mo agoPanama was an opened and closed book in practically less than a week.
- jacquesm 10mo agoI was there and no it wasn't.
- steve-atx-7600 10mo agoOpen and closed in the collective US attention span
- DyslexicAtheist 10mo ago> or it could roll on for quite a while I hope to be wrong, but think it certainly will. all the money everyone is spending on arms it seems soon the only game left in town in the military industrial complex. the other career options are to become a doctor, or nurse. the US in its current form is heading towards long drawn out collapse like the Roman empire, and they're dragging all their former allies down with them. there seem to be no peaceful options to prevent that collapse. E.g.: - I do not see any way they can modernize their messed up political system. - their population is divided more than any country on the planet - thanks to heavily propagandized citizens they don't have the critical mass to bring in change (not in a country where the companies have so much power)
- integralid 10mo ago>the US in its current form is heading towards long drawn out collapse like the Roman empire, The Roman empire collapsed for more than 250 years. Longer than US exists. I think it's too early to compare those two.
- cyanydeez 10mo agoUnfortunately, the action is perpetrated by the least capable amaerican government so theres slim chance ultimate good comes out.
- anovikov 10mo agoBut in the end of the day, Arab spring worked just fine everywhere? In every single country where pro-Russian dictators were in power, they fell (Iran is not pro-Russian, just a potent enemy by itself, and is not Arab for that matter). Except Libya where they fell partially, with country being effectively split in halves. But this is already a big deal - there isn't a single pro-Russian regime now in the entire Arab world. Why do you think it won't work like that with Venezuela? PS: I realised that i made a mistake, so-called Palestine is absolutely pro-Russian, the entire ethnic group is created by Russians out of thin air in 1967, but it's a separate case and they did not participate in Arab Spring anyway.
- YY347632876 10mo agoSo what if they're pro-Russian? America just showed to the world that they're a terrorist state just like the big scary Russians. Now you can expect Putin to make a BIG play in Ukraine and Europe very soon; the gloves are off.
- SmirkingRevenge 10mo agoIncreased nuclear proliferation is a one of those possible paths. Trump has done a great deal already to incentivize nuclear proliferation by destroying confidence that the US will be a reliable defensive ally.
- woodpanel 10mo agoOf course assuming that this is a book that was opened today and not many years ago, is the tell tale sign where this argument comes from.
- belter 10mo ago>> It's funny how many people already see this as a book that is opened and closed on the same day. Trump just said in the press conference that from now on the US will run Venezuela...The US is "designating" the people that will run the country. They mentioned the president of Colombia has to "watch his ass" and that Cuba is a mess. And said that the US will be selling the oil to other countries, and the US will take "our oil". Insanity does not even starts to describe it...
- godelski 10mo ago> This is like the first stone of an avalanche. I wouldn't even say it's the first. And things have already happened. Close allies have stopped sharing intelligence information with the US. Even if the US doesn't need the info the deterioration of those partnerships is concerning. Or maybe good from the perspective of weakening the global surveillance machine but that's a whole other issue. Not to mention all the other things that happen that when you put together are more concerning. People forget, there are no real "big things". Instead there's just a bunch of little things that come together to look big. As programmers we should be intimately familiar with this. Though normally we're using it in the other direction: taking a big problem and determining all the little problems that come together to create the big one. Working in the assembly direction is much harder than the disassembly direction (far larger solution space) but the concept is still the same. But I agree with you, this isn't the end. This is definitely a concerning inflection point.
- calvinmorrison 10mo ago> Close allies "Allies" like "The West" who take our money, don't have the same beliefs or core values, no shared religion or culture? those "Allies"? good riddance. I am sick of us propping up failed European states
- NeutralCrane 10mo agoIf you don’t think Europe shares our values, I’m curious who you think does?
- BrenBarn 10mo agoWell, these days someone who just looked at the current situation and wasn't familiar with history might guess Russia, Hungary, Turkmenistan or even Venezuela.
- godelski 10mo agoWell if you exclude the politicians then most people share values. I mean we got a bunch of Chinese people living in America and a bunch of Americans living in China. Same is true for a lot of countries and ones where the countries politically are at odds. Yet the people... not so much.
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- wseqyrku 10mo ago> It will take months or even years to know whether or not the outcome here was desirable or not and what the final tally is. So you'd prefer.. inaction? So we know for a fact we will going to reach world peace ten years from now having done absolutely nothing?
- lvspiff 10mo agoIts worked for north korea going on over 70 years now
- ok123456 10mo ago"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"
- lvspiff 10mo ago“MI$$ION ACCOMPLISHED”
- varjag 10mo ago6 years ago to the day many people were hysterical when Trump offed Soleimani on his Baghdad field trip. Turned out it brought substantial positive change to the Middle East. It may not work out this time but when you start from a terrible rock bottom status quo the chances are already biased.
- woooooo 10mo agoCan you point out the substantial positive change?
- varjag 10mo agoIt impeded the Iranian colonial project considerably. Influence of Iran sponsored militias in Iraq have declined. It limped in Syria as well, which allowed for the fall of Assad regime a year ago.
- woooooo 10mo agoYou realize he was there at Iraq's invitation? The only impact of killing him is that both the Iraqis and whomever took his place is guaranteed to never forget why the job was open. Looking at the middle east right now compared to 2020 I see a much bigger shitshow, including Syria. Having a bunch of people die chaotically doesn't serve anyone's interest, it just creates the next generation of radicals.
- varjag 10mo agoHe was there to coordinate his militias during the ongoing attack on the U.S. embassy. And countless lives have been saved in Syria now that Assad is out.
- woooooo 10mo agoI'd love to see a source that he was there to coordinate an attack on the US embassy. Did the Iraqis invite him for that purpose?
- derbOac 10mo agoTo me this is one of those situations where regardless of what happens in Venezuela, there were better, more morally and legally justifiable, ways of achieving the same end.
- pyuser583 10mo agoYeah I remember Occupy protesters. I got trapped in a gaggle of them shouting “Tahir Square!” again and again. I literally lost hearing in one of my ears. It never really recovered. Probably need a hearing aid, but I can just use the other one.
- nashashmi 10mo agoNo matter the outcome, we are not here giving judgement on the action. We are here questioning how is any of this legitimate? How did we elect a person who promised to keep america out of foreign affairs but is now doing the same thing his predecessors did.
- _alaya 10mo ago> How did we elect a person who promised to keep america out of foreign affairs but is now doing the same thing his predecessors did. Anybody who voted for current POTUS who is actually surprised at this turn of events...words fail me. Whether you like the man or not, DT and his team have been more than forthcoming on what their plans were and they have more or less delivered to a T.
- steve-atx-7600 10mo agoGroups of people over time are a complex system. What more of us educated types can do is try to help more people get educated and have good jobs. The more vulnerable, ignorant folks we have in the population, the easier it is to end up with extreme crony types.
- SilverElfin 10mo agoAlso, based on threats Trump has made and that recent national security proposal or whatever, it seems the administration is intent on regime change in Colombia, Cuba, and Mexico. I bet Brazil is watching its back too. So it’s really going to be many avalanches as America revives colonialism. All to the cheer of half the country. I doubt any of our allies like Canada or European countries can trust us again.
- microtonal 10mo agoDon't forget Greenland.
- tekknik 10mo agoI think no americans are afraid of venezuela, so what could possibly come that we don’t want? you think venezuela can stand toe-to-toe in a full scale military engagement? you see how we just walked into their country, took the president, and his wife, and walked out without issue? have you seen how many venezuelans are celebrating?
- baristaGeek 10mo agoIt obviously doesn’t end today but it should be fast. When Noriega was arrested by the US, the legitimate president started operating normally a few days after.
- ncr100 10mo agoTrump is threatening, today, the new Next In Line leader of Venezuela. I'm skeptical it will be over soon. We in the USA now own Venezuela. It's all our fault going forward.
- timeon 10mo agoAs we saw in Iraq, Americans do not care. It creates opportunities for them anyway while someone else is going to bear consequences.
- indubioprorubik 10mo ago? The arab spring came from the islamic world regularly building population powder kegs, without having a modern industrial society to keep these populations educated, fed and with a perspective beyond fanatic death-cultist movements. The arab spring exploded, because obama rerouted us-surplus food from subsidizing allied regimes (egypt) into bio-fuels, causing wild price spikes to the bread prices in egypt and the arab world. These situations are not really comparable - like at all. Not even on the surface level.
- steve-atx-7600 10mo agoRight on. We haven’t even tried to win the hearts and minds yet. Not to mention a surge or two.
- DrScientist 10mo agoThe Arab spring was a mass uprising, this was the removal of one person - it's really not the same. Think of it this way - Maduro could had died from choking on a turkey bone over Christmas - would there inevitability be a civil war? What matters is whether there is a fight for political power as a result - and particularly what the generals think. ie any fight is much more likely to start from the top rather than the bottom. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the smoothness of the extraction mission strongly suggests serious inside info/cooperation. ie somebody did a deal with the US - involving giving up Maduro in exchange for removal of the sanctions ( particularly oil which the US has escalated with tanker seizures ) which was crippling the country. So my prediction is an internal smooth transition of power, cooperation around oil, with neither the US nor the new leader being keen on quick elections as that will interfere with the execution of the deal. All the Trump cares about is the public 'win' and the oil and minerals flowing. The Venezuelan leadership will want to end the US sanctions and get the countries economy working again - if this happens they will think election prospects will improve - can't see Trump caring that much about Venezuelan internal politics as long as he get's the win and a positive flow of oil revenue and strategic access to minerals.
- DrScientist 10mo agoRemember that historically oil was 90% of export revenues and 25% of GDP. The real knee-on-the-neck was the US blockade/piracy of oil tankers and associated sanctions.