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Visa and Mastercard are getting overwhelmed by gamer fury over censorship

625 points by mrzool 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
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jmclnx 1y ago
This is just a peek into a possible future. With the trend of eliminating cash, the powers that be can prevent people from buying anything deemed harmful. Or a large company can close down a small but innovative competitor with a flick of the wrist. Yes, some may save the bitcoins will save us from this. But seeing all governments are looking closely to regulate the *coins, I believe it will be locked down just like the credit cards. So we need to ensure we keep cash available.
- DJBunnies 1y ago
  Actually with today’s levels of chain analysis, Monero would be a better coin pick from a privacy perspective.
  - efnx 1y ago
    And zcash would be better than Monero for privacy reasons.
    - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
      citation ? (not doubting, just out of the loop)
    - DJBunnies 1y ago
      How’s that? Zcash is opt in privacy, Monero is by default.
      - madars 1y ago
        All modern Zcash wallets are shielded-only.
    - lesuorac 1y ago
      I assume a merchant would want a stablecoin more than Monero/zcash so that there's more assurance that the coins will sell for the same price.
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  > So we need to ensure we keep cash available The problem with that is there are a number of ways to prevent you from holding cash as well. Bank regulations around how much money you can withdraw/access, scrutiny around how much money you can carry to an airport, asset forfeiture without due process etc. all allow governments to coerce you into whatever they want. Cash is not necessarily a solution either.
  - clown_strike 1y ago
    Currently at an airport right now. Nobody will even TAKE cash. I could be holding a million dollars right now but I cant use any of it to buy a coke. Availability is not the bottleneck.
    - catlikesshrimp 1y ago
      Which airport? (My third world country airport stablishments accept cash payments. There are vending machines which do, too)
    - _Algernon_ 1y ago
      Time to admit that this bloke was right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je246B2NKLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je246B2NKLE
  - bell-cot 1y ago
    Sure, cash is far from ideal. But it's something we already have (zero implementation resistance/delay/cost). And it still works fine (at least at small scales) when the power fails, or internet is down, or server gets hacked, or whatever.
    - darth_avocado 1y ago
      Correct. But I’m mostly addressing the GP’s comments around the need for preserving cash as a mechanism against government/private entity overreach, which it isn’t.
- dleslie 1y ago
  Each bill of American paper currency has a unique serial number. In practical terms, this means that paper money is not guaranteed to be untraceable for transactions; particularly when engaging in the sort of transactions where large stacks of cash are moved between banks.
  - wtallis 1y ago
    Traceability of transactions doesn't seem at all related to the issue at hand.
  - blahyawnblah 1y ago
    I don't keep track of my serial numbers. No one does except banks. Banks don't know who gets what serial number when you withdraw cash.
    - ghssds 1y ago
      You can start here: https://www.wheresgeorge.com/ https://www.wheresgeorge.com/ Enjoy! ;)
    - em-bee 1y ago
      according to a german report ATMs can scan the serial numbers when the money is dispensed, logging them to the account from which the money is withdrawn. it's generally not done now, but it is technically possible. in china it apparently is already enforced. elsewhere at a minimum they track which notes are sent to which ATM in order to resolve ATM robberies. likewise when money is deposited, it is being scanned for fakes. counting and sorting machines can track the serial number too: https://netzpolitik.org/2025/bargeld-tracking-du-hast-ueberwachungsinstrumente-im-portemonnaie/ https://netzpolitik.org/2025/bargeld-tracking-du-hast-ueberw... https://www.citechsensors.com/en/technology.html https://www.citechsensors.com/en/technology.html
    - jmb99 1y ago
      > Banks don't know who gets what serial number when you withdraw cash. Do you have evidence to back this up? In Canada, many bank branches don't carry cash except at ATMs, which means 100% of the cash transactions at those branches go through ATMs. Bills are inserted without an envelope, and are counted one by one, which means they're already being optically scanned (read: photographed) to determine the denomination. It's not a stretch that the serial number could be captured at this phase. When bills are withdrawn, they're withdrawn off the top (or bottom) of a stack of bills, so it is known which elements are removed from the stack. Again, it would not be infeasible to track all of the serial numbers in the stack, in order, and associate those numbers with withdrawals. I do not have evidence that this occurs, but I've always assumed it was at least possible. It's technically trivial. But if you're claiming that it's either impossible or it doesn't happen, I'd need some convincing evidence that that's the case.
- BitwiseFool 1y ago
  >"But seeing all governments are looking closely to regulate the coins, I believe it will be locked down just like the credit cards." The Bitcoin crowd is adamant that no government can regulate Bitcoin. They are correct in the sense that Congress is unable to pass a law dictating what the Bitcoin protocol must do, and that as a decentralized network people are free to follow whichever fork of Bitcoin they choose. However, they have not given much consideration to the fact that governments have full authority to regulate those that use Bitcoin. In other words, no government needs to change Bitcoin. All they need to do is dictate what the lawful use of Bitcoin looks like in their jurisdiction. There is nothing stopping a government from declaring that all wallets owned by their citizens must be registered, and that all transactions must be voluntarily reported to the authorities. In the context of this article, I doubt that a government would prohibit the sale of these games, but I agree with your assertion that the government is likely to start locking down cryptocurrencies in some way that impedes privacy.
  - wbnns 1y ago
    > There is nothing stopping a government from declaring that all wallets owned by their citizens must be registered, and that all transactions must be voluntarily reported to the authorities. This would likely drive capital and the fintech companies and financial institutions behind it to friendlier countries and more welcoming markets.
- praptak 1y ago
  We'll all just use Tide: https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/ https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/
- spongebobstoes 1y ago
  In Seattle, many small businesses refuse to accept cash because of repeated break ins. Cash is unfortunately a liability for small businesses.
dmitrygr 1y ago
Good. Payment processors need to either be regulated or voluntarily self-commit themselves to processing all legal payments. Nobody asked them to act as censors. Also: this is why cash should not die
- dleslie 1y ago
  Americans ought to adopt the Canadian Interac system.
  - Eric_WVGG 1y ago
    I hadn't heard of Interac before but it looks perfect. It’s outrageous that private duopolies control > 95% of transactions in the country.
    - throawaywpg 1y ago
      in Canada im pretty sure 95% of the population doesn't know Interac is Canadian only or different from debit in any way.
  - dmitrygr 1y ago
    Perhaps Canada should hang its head in shame and stay humbly quiet on the topic of de-banking https://www.newsweek.com/banks-have-begun-freezing-accounts-linked-trucker-protest-1680649 https://www.newsweek.com/banks-have-begun-freezing-accounts-...
    - dleslie 1y ago
      Nothing shameful about attempting to use temporary, non-violent means to end the occupation of the nations' capital, and the blockage of border crossings, when the occupying group has produced a MOU that calls for the dissolution of Government and voluntary removal of all bureaucrats and Senators who disagree with them, under threat of the Governor General refusing to allow Parliament to sit again.
      - 1y ago
GaggiX 1y ago
Even Mouthwashing got delisted by itch io, it's pretty insane how censorship is escalating in these last few days.
- dewey 1y ago
  I think you are basing this on false information. > This game hasn’t been indexed since October 2024 since it doesn’t meet our indexing criteria: https://itch.io/docs/creators/getting-indexed#why-isnt-my-project-showing-up https://itch.io/docs/creators/getting-indexed#why-isnt-my-pr... > The developers are using a “Download” button as a link to Steam. The developer took down any playable files form this page in 2024.
  - GaggiX 1y ago
    You can literally read the developer response: https://x.com/siarate/status/1949739112182714819 https://x.com/siarate/status/1949739112182714819 "And ofc Mouthwashing got yoinked from itch search results lol"
    - dewey 1y ago
      I kinda trust the admin of itch.io more that posted that reply I quoted above 20 minutes ago: https://itch.io/post/13496611 https://itch.io/post/13496611
      - johnnyanmac 1y ago
        I don't. I'd rather have a proper rep than a potentially powertripping moderator.
        BrawnyBadger53 1y ago
        Read the comments on the itch page linked then. It's pretty clear from archiving that the moderator isn't just making things up ad hoc
dehugger 1y ago
Is there a reason steam hasn't just changed policy so that adult games can only be purchased with store credit? They already have systems in place to load a steam balance, which isnt refundable, and then buy games with it. Just lock these games to only use that payment type...
- qualeed 1y ago
  Visa/Mastercard can, conceivably, just tell Steam "if X content is available on the platform at all, regardless of payment method, we will no longer process your payments."
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    Stablecoins and FedNow instant payments are options. Walmart is about to offer Pay by Bank using FedNow instant payments rails to avoid credit card interchange fees, for example. Does Coinbase offer payment processing yet? Could be the next Superapp competing against PayPal’s global digital wallet.
    - qualeed 1y ago
      Coins, maybe. FedNow is US-specific, though. In any case, as it stands right now, Steam losing Visa/MC processing entirely would be catastrophic to their business.
      - toomuchtodo 1y ago
        Visa and Mastercard are for profit companies. Harder for commercial banks and the Federal Reserve to block payments unless you’re straight up breaking the law or KYC/AML. (payments are adjacent to my day gig, and I have to talk to FiServ and other FIs occasionally on the topic of moving money at a fintech)
        qualeed 1y ago
        >Harder for banks and the Federal Reserve to block payments That will vary by country, and the Federal Reserve is also US-specific. There are gamers in more countries than just the US :). But yes, I certainly agree that the duopoly of Visa/MC needs to go.
ThrowawayR2 1y ago
The leadership at Visa, Mastercard, etc. know damned well that consumers and businesses have no other realistic options than them and that a consumer campaign is unlikely to sustain itself for more than a few weeks. What we need is pressure on politicians, particularly Democratic legislators and candidates who are desperate for an issue that will garner them support and votes.
- eastbound 1y ago
  The question I have about most conspiracies including this one is: Why? What’s the motive? You can do everything with a debit card, it probably already happened that Visa was used to facilitate buying a weapon for a school shooting: Were they annoyed? You can buy a dildo with a Mastercard on Amazon: Are they annoyed? But games? Why?
  - devmor 1y ago
    Ideology. Some religious, some not. Loud, wealthy people with extremist beliefs are behind most of the actions that restrict our ability to exercise our rights. This one in particular is an attack on art. It’s not just games, but traditional types of art as well that are currently affected by this issue. There is a certain ideology that views non-mainstream art - particularly art that tells a story about uncomfortable subjects - as something “degenerate” to be eradicated.
    - flumpcakes 1y ago
      I would strongly argue that a game that's only purpose is to seek enjoyment from the forceable rape of your family members is no 100% squarely in the 'degenerate' camp. Fictional media or not.
      - devmor 1y ago
        I strongly suggest that you spend a couple minutes reading what that word means and where it comes from before you continue to use it. It may say something about you to others that you would really rather not have them believe about your beliefs.
benoau 1y ago
> “We raised our objection to rape and incest games on Steam for months, and they ignored us for months,” reads a blog post from Collective Shout. “We approached payment processors because Steam did not respond to us.” Right about now Visa and Mastercard realizing they should have done the same.
- Forgeties79 1y ago
  The problem is that in the current environment all it takes is one right wing grifter to go “visa protects rapists and pedophiles and their sick twisted games/fantasies” for conservative “boycotts” and negative PR campaigns to go in to full swing. And if they survive that, there’s always a chance the current White House will catch wind and use it themselves as a cudgel.
  - stelonix 1y ago
    It is not specific to right wing grifters. Left wing grifters use the same talking points but with a different reason behind. Yet they want to censor the same products: one group based on puritanism & moralism while the other based on feminism & LGBT rights. Both extremes want the same thing.
    - jennyholzer 1y ago
      I don't think it makes sense to label either group of grifters based on stated political affiliation; These groups are linked because they are both grifters. The politics are just a costume that ingratiates the grifter with their target market.
      - AlexandrB 1y ago
        I don't get why they're being called grifters. These groups - both left and right - probably genuinely believe this stuff is harmful and are following their beliefs to their logical conclusion. I don't think companies should bow to such pressure, but that doesn't make them "grifters". "Grifter" seems like the new shorthand for "person I don't like".
AlienRobot 1y ago
I feel like it should be a law that you can't provide information to someone about what their their customers/employees are doing out of your own accord. Credit card companies have no business in knowing what their customers are buying. They should just process the payment with the minimum amount of information possible. Turning private entities into investigator and judge isn't good for anyone. It ends up in a game of who can annoy them the most, and the entity will be wasting time trying to appease both sides. Leave these things to the government. At least then you need evidence and have due process.
- weard_beard 1y ago
  Everyone is doing their job as private entities with their own standards... except the government who are supposed to break up monopolies. I blame elizabeth warren.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  As far as I know steam doesn't share what you bought on the transaction - it just says you spent it on steam. What's happened here is that someone has complained it's visible on the store at all.
  - AlienRobot 1y ago
    I mean that they told Visa/Mastercard that the client Steam/Steam customers are selling/buying certain types of products. Now that they are aware of it, they can be pressed to do something about it. Conversely, if they weren't made aware about it, they could just go on with their business as usual. Personally I think it's better for private entities to stay neutral and leave political decisions to the government. It's hard to stay neutral about things when you know things are happening, so when you inform a private entity about what people are doing with their services, you are turning that private entity into a political entity.
    - nemomarx 1y ago
      Fair, although it would be better if the banks had some equivalent of section 230 protection from having to do anything about what they're processing, maybe.
deleted 1y ago
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Kapura 1y ago
It's crazy that we live in a world where maybe a few dozen people's weird ideas about what shouldn't be allowed can cause payment processors to pressure the storefronts to delist the titles. It is censorship of something they personally find distasteful. guess what: nobody is forcing you to play weird art games about trauma. obviously we must keep the pressure up on payment processors to reverse course, but we also need to push back against people in society who think they can decide what other adults are allowed to do on their own time. If folks IRL have weird ideas pushed back on IRL we wouldn't get to crisis points like this.
- deleted 1y ago
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- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Freedom of speech goes both ways, even people we disagree with are free to express their opinions. The real problem is how can it be legal for payment provider to forbid stuff that isn't illegal, no matter what it is. Had Steam decided to deplatform some content, it's up to them (although centralization through steam of other platform causes an unwarranted concentration of power) but that third parties can intervene an have a say in what is allowed and what isn't anywhere on the internet is a very serious trouble.
  - arcfour 1y ago
    The payment provider has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, being forced to do business with someone is the same thing as compelling someone to speak (or not speak). Two wrongs don't make a right.
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      There are two parts in this argument I disagree with: - that doing business is akin to speech. - that corporations are entitled human rights (freedom of speech). Also, freedom of speech means nothing for humans if corporations can force their customers not to discuss certain topics in the name of “I don't want to do business with someone who says that”.
motbus3 1y ago
What is happening to the world right now where everyone wants to act like the censor or the ruler? Omg
- CivBase 1y ago
  This isn't new. It's just an increasing problem in a digital, cashless world and people are getting sick of it.
- _Algernon_ 1y ago
  It's a consequence of concentration of power. People and organizations do what they have the power to do. Which is why the democracy is built on splitting power between as many people as possible. Private, consolidated mega-corporations largely sidestep the democratic process, and these kind of things are the consequence of that.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  It's nothing new, just the newest wave of credit card attacks based on ideaology. But what's going on: lots of unrest in the world mixed with a dying generation with the most wealth trying to secure a legacy. Awful combination for freedom and livelihood.
- averageRoyalty 1y ago
  Visa/Mastercard have been doing this for decades, it's certainly not a "right now" thing. You might just be hearing about it.
duxup 1y ago
Payment processors as gatekeepers is absurd, even worse the entire system is completely opaque. A local company who makes swords (very nice ones) ran into an issue where they couldn't take credit cards. No warning, they weren't even told, they were just added to a list and couldn't take payment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIcohyT5Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIcohyT5Dc They still haven't completely resolved the issue / don't know how they ended up on a bad list. The idea that someone somewhere else complains inside an opaque system, and your ability to do business ends without warning is absurd. You can't appeal, you can't talk to anyone, you're just hosed. In some cases you AREN'T EVEN TOLD what is going on.
- calvinmorrison 1y ago
  Paypal blocked our entire account because we sold a product called "La Aroma De Cuba", a cigar manufactured in nicaragua. No discussion would resolve it. We regexed the product name on the payload to replace it with LADC and we were reinstated.
  - devmor 1y ago
    I had a similar experience with a payment processor for a client that sold manufacturing accessories for a completely benign industry - but one morning they were suddenly cut off and forbidden from processing all transactions. The payment gateway would not tell us why, just that the account was permanently suspended for “service violations”. We had to quickly onboard them onto a new gateway, and while testing in their sandbox environment a rep saw the issue. Turned out one of their products ended up with an auto-generated part code that had the four-letter term for sexual assault in it. That was it.
    - viraptor 1y ago
      I wonder how many rapeseed oil sellers ran into this. Scunthorpe problem strikes again.
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      You'd think we'd be passsed basic word filters for major industries like this. I guess all grapevines (and wineries, by extension) are screwed as well. And people wonder why many are anxious about AI. Garbage in, garbage out. Automating the process amplifies that.
CivBase 1y ago
I want to believe the headline, but I've seen too much "gamer fury" to think it will result in meaningful change. Then again, things are looking good for the Stop Killing Games campaign so maybe the "gamer" demographic is big enough now to have real influence.
- qualeed 1y ago
  The "Stop Killing Games" movement is a lot more palatable to the general public. (It can be boiled down to "I should be able to play the thing I bought and paid for") As soon as you mention to someone uninvolved what started this conversation (incest games and such), you're climbing an uphill battle. It's the same reason why "protect the children" arguments often work, no matter how flawed.
- __loam 1y ago
  The video game industry takes in more money than movies. It's absolutely huge.
  - hofrogs 1y ago
    Isn't that mostly from mobile game microtransactions?
    - __loam 1y ago
      Based on my 5 seconds of Googling, games made about $190b in revenue, 55% from mobile. Movies made $32b, so even ignoring mobile, games are about double what movies do. Games also have massive projects like Call of Duty that now cost $700 million to develop.
      - teamonkey 1y ago
        Steam as a platform accounts for about $5bn. A good chunk of it is Roblox, Minecraft and Fortnite. Then a handful of really big hitters like GTA and CoD. Excluding those enormous titles, the games industry is smaller than the numbers suggest. Which is to say, the big fish are the ones with the most influence and least likely to be affected by this.
infecto 1y ago
I have a slightly different opinion. Businesses can decide who they want to do business with unless it’s a protected class. I don’t think Visa is doing anything wrong here. They are in a difficult position as they need to be mindful of the government coming at them as well as chargebacks. Ideally there would be a new entrant here to fill the need.
- blackoil 1y ago
  Works if Businesses don't have monopoly/duopoly. Also, some sectors are utilities, they should have stronger regulations.
- commandlinefan 1y ago
  That's the best-case scenario here - Visa and Mastercard take on a much smaller percentage of the world's commerce and some actual competition comes in and picks up the pieces.
- sdrinf 1y ago
  This absolutely works... until, and when network effects kick in. Payment processors have major network effects in that infra setup is expensive, banks need to be onboarded one-by-one, and whichever network has the most consumers, businesses will gravitate towards it. Iterate this over 20 years, and this always results in natural monopolies / duopolies. This creates a natural chokepoint/linchpin over which millions of people's mutually exclusive needs are getting banged at; including consumers at large, govs at large, and special-interest groups at large. Absent crystal clear legislation -and porn is anything, but- this will always be arbitrary, and leave one side in the dust.
  - infecto 1y ago
    I suspect if there was clear rules for the government this would be cut and dry. The fact of the matter is it’s not and that’s why companies like Visa may restrict certain things. There is chargeback risk, risk from the underwriting bank, risk from a state government and risk from the federal government. This is not some free speech problem but rather an issue where a company is having to balance issues from many different parties and weigh the risk.
myko 1y ago
Good. This is and has always been ridiculous.
renewiltord 1y ago
[flagged]
- hofrogs 1y ago
  Collective Shout is by no means a "progressive" organization. Unless anti-trans, anti-choice fundamentalist christians are now counted as progressives.
numpad0 1y ago
I suspect a lot of people are rather comforted by the fact that it was pornographies that were removed at first. Now the waterline has moved up to horror games[1]. Mouthwashing(2024) is a horror adventure game available on all 3 major game consoles as well as Steam, and now it's hidden on itch.io. Think about that. 1: https://itch.io/search?type=games&q=mouthwashing&classification=game https://itch.io/search?type=games&q=mouthwashing&classificat... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouthwashing_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouthwashing_(video_game)
- colonwqbang 1y ago
  Crazy, that's a very acclaimed game which won multiple awards. The story alludes to past rape but nothing is depicted in the game. Many of the books we read in school would be banned if these people had their way.
  - justsid 1y ago
    No worries, this pearl clutching is getting many books that we read in school banned as well.
    - tofof 1y ago
      Always has been. Julie of the Wolves is a Newbery winner and the sexual assault in the first quarter of the book is central to the entire story. The Giver is another, and deals with euthanasia and infanticide (literally 'abortion after birth'). Number the Stars, again a Newbery winner, dealing with escaping genocide. The Slave Dancer - guess that topic? Summer of the Swans, with a mentally disabled sibling? Shiloh - animal abuse. Maniac Magee - racism. And they've always been being banned for these things. And these are just from the <100 Newbery winners.
      - abustamam 1y ago
        Let's be real. They're probably fine with Maniac Magee not being banned. Thats the only book I've read out of the ones that you shared. Interestingly, that was the book my 3rd grade teacher decided to read aloud during storytime. When I read it again as a teenager I was questioning the choice, but even at age 8 I thought it was well-written. I should read all the other books you listed.
EcommerceFlow 1y ago
I'm disappointed by the GOP for not attacking this point, considering the censorship conservatives faced from the processors.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Shocker, right wing personalities are hypocrites who don't mind when corruption works in their favor. A shocking development in 2025.
nemomarx 1y ago
in case anyone is interested - collective shout claims they made a thousand phone calls to get the Credit card companies attention on this, so the bar is apparently pretty low. (I assume lower when it's something they already want to do, or think looks good optics wise.) so there's various lists of numbers to call going around online with a target of keeping up that volume for a few weeks. I'm sure it'll fall off eventually but it might be possible to at least match collective shout here.
Zealotux 1y ago
I'm always surprised at how "easy" it is to pressure litteral billion-dollars companies like Visa and Mastercard, don't they make "fuck you money"? How are you even going to cancel them? They're hegemonic.
- flumpcakes 1y ago
  People assume it's pressure and not the payment processors looking at what people are complaining about and independently deciding it is too risky. These are the same payment processors that stopped allowing payments to porn sites due to the epidemic of 'revenge porn'. I would argue that was a net benefit to society as now these sites only allow 'verified' uploads.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  When you tell them something they want to do anyway, you only need a few calls to confirm their bias. When it's something they hate, they will throw millions to resist the change. It can't be cancelled, but it can be inconvinienced. Emails can be ignored, but snail mail is overwhelming, and call centers can be gummed up. For some reasons, these businesses respond more to these old medium, so gotta make use of it.
yieldcrv 1y ago
Payment processors should be like power and water companies - completely agnostic - by law If you asked a poll about whether an undesirable person should have their power and water cut off, as if it was actually up for debate, many people would treat power and water as a reward to be removed and say yes Its been determined that is a problem, and financial access should be at the same standard
MangoToupe 1y ago
Why we even have private payment processors is a mystery. This is a great example of something that should have been nationalized 50 years ago. Privatization provides zero value to society; fees are high and accountability is low across all providers. Discover is the best (maybe Amex too) but it barely works anywhere outside america.
- GuB-42 1y ago
  Which nation? Nationalizing means every country will have its own payment processor, how are you going to coordinate all this? Will each platform have to deal with dozens of payment processors that depend on the whims of their respective governments?
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    I'm not saying it's easy. Presumably there must be a way of agreeing on how to coordinate payments across countries and sharing costs between nations. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not worth working toward.
- Gormo 1y ago
  Is this a joke? You're suggesting that to avoid censorship, multiple competing processors should be instead consolidated into a politically-controlled monopoly? Are you serious?
  - MangoToupe 1y ago
    It's already a politically-controlled monopoly (or duopoly). The alleged competition doesn't appear to be benefiting us. Fear of the government is legitimate, but I fear the private payment system we have more in every way.
bsenftner 1y ago
Doubtful. This article is pandering to the game audience, with absolutely no substance. The "overwhelming" is pure lies. Do not believe the hype.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  So what's your counter evidence? Did you call Visa and have empty lines on the phone? did you not receive the email shown in the article?
SilverElfin 1y ago
Some things should be regulated heavily. But payment that is private by default and censorship free should just be a public (government run taxpayer funded) service.
vunderba 1y ago
Relevant online petition: https://www.change.org/p/tell-mastercard-visa-activist-groups-stop-controlling-what-we-can-watch-read-or-play https://www.change.org/p/tell-mastercard-visa-activist-group...
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  I've come to the conclusion that these are worse than useless. Their lack of impact makes them useless. What makes them worse is there may be people who might have done something useful, e.g. call their elected, who now think they've done their bit by "signing" an online petition.
scirob 1y ago
Any call to action to help reduce their power?
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Slightly different framing but https://yellat.money/ https://yellat.money/ has all the contact information for this. I've seen a few different lists but this should cover it. Technically stripe is the intermediary for itch but they're gesturing at Visa and MasterCard, so those two seem like the important ones right now.
Razengan 1y ago
How is it that Apple/Google/Microsoft are bad and abusing their monopoly/xpoly etc. if they disallow certain things on their platform meanwhile Visa & Mastercard can get away with dictating EVERYTHING in EVERY economy and on EVERY store in EVERY country for DECADES???
- amelius 1y ago
  I think it is funny how people were totally okay with Apple nannying and dictating them, even defending the company, and only became rebellious when Visa/Mastercard started doing similar things. Tells you something about principles and how far they go.
  - Razengan 1y ago
    I mean Apple did not censor shit on MULTIPLE stores that they did not even own. If I go to Apple I expect Apple to be Apple. But when I'm browsing Steam etc I don't see them say "Sorry Apple told us to remove this"
    - amelius 1y ago
      > If I go to Apple I expect Apple to be Apple. Does that difference matter if you're locked in the Apple ecosystem?
      - Razengan 1y ago
        You don't get it: My usage of Apple is my choice. If the App Store doesn't have something, I can go somewhere else. Visa/Mastercard fucking shit up on Steam, itch, and everywhere else is NOT my choice. Hell, even if I never use Visa/MC and just use bank → PayPal, or cash → Steam gift cards or whatever for all my purchases, why do I still lose access to products because of Visa/MC's whims?
        amelius 1y ago
        > If the App Store doesn't have something, I can go somewhere else. Only because Apple was legally forced to allow this. This is a recent thing, also.
3acctforcom 1y ago
Hilarious that redditors think calling a call center will do anything, they've clearly never worked at one. Call center employees are nothing to Visa/Mastercard executives. And those same executives are nothing to the billionaire pushing this, he's going straight through the board. People at the bottom really don't know how power works.
- kstrauser 1y ago
  Execs do care when the call center is so swamped with dealing with external BS that more common complaint calls can't get through, costs per customer skyrocket, and customer support satisfaction nosedives. Don't think of it as some complaint calls. Think of it more like a mass protest. Mayors don't care if 5 people jaywalk. They start caring a whole lot when entire streets are blocked and their residents are demanding a response. Except in the call center case, callers are following the exact documented policy of contacting their bank to complain about bad service. What's Visa going to do, crack down on callers? That would be even worse for customer satisfaction and would probably get the board involved. But a reminder: if you call, be unfailingly polite to the support person. Keep them on the phone as long as possible, but be kind to them. They don't set the policy. This isn't their fault. Visa and Mastercard should be dealing with the pain, not the regular employee who gets paid to help customers with their credit card issues.
- DangitBobby 1y ago
  TFA talks about how the goal is to gum up the works so real customers are impacted, causing them to lose money.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  The claim is that 1000 calls caused Visa/Mastercard to react. This works in reverse too. And yeah, the call center isn't the point, the loss of productivity (and thus, money) dealing with this issue will make them react. The call centers don't care, but the people up top will see the impact.
jackmottatx 1y ago
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tflinton 1y ago
Before anyone goes with pitchforks at Mastercard or Visa it's worth remembering that just because something isn't criminal it can still be quite a civil issue. Visa and Mastercard take on quite a bit of risk by allowing payment transactions to companies who wade into murky businesses that while not illegal may have a lot of risk. The amount of lawsuits that these processors get co-named in for providing payment rails is probably enormous and without laws protecting them I don't see how they don't have a choice in actively censoring.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  So we're supposed to capitulate to censors because it's hard to do business? If it's too hard, don't do it. I think Visa/Mastercard get more than enough business to justify the inevitbale costs/abuse of the system. >The amount of lawsuits that these processors get co-named in for providing payment rails is probably enormous yes, that's called being a billion dollar business. Literally any billion dollar business is facing dozens of lawsuits on the daily. They have dedicated lawyers on hand for this ineviability.
  - tflinton 1y ago
    It’s still a very large considerably risk. They don’t have the equivalent of a net neutrality law to shield them. Money transferred on their network is their liability.
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      If so many other cases didn't end the other way in the US, there may have been a point. Websites aren't accountable for user content published on their servers. Gun manufacturers aren't accountable for school shootings, fast food isn't accountable for the obesity crisis. Police aren't accountable for shooting black people. There's a lot that needs to change, but I don't see these businesses bothering. So forgive my lack of sympathy.
      - tflinton 1y ago
zahlman 1y ago
>getting overwhelmed by gamer fury Leave it to Polygon to frame things this way....
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spwa4 1y ago
Overwhelming 2 companies entire customer support departments? I wonder how many people that takes these days ...
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  Not as many as you think. Especially with a medium as slow as telephones. even if every call is 2 minutes, 100 calls within a region can gum up a phone work for multiple hours. and with companies trying to operate on ghost crews, they don't exactly have the throughput for this at the moment either.
fsckboy 1y ago
>the [hanging on the line] tactic is motivated by the knowledge that most customer service systems will put people who opt for call-backs in a lower priority queue Are large brand names that are assuring callers that opting for callback will not push you down in the queue lying? I'm not looking for an outpouring of cynicism, I can provide that myself, I'm curious about people who actually know how call centers operate, are they set up to lie as a general practice?
- Affric 1y ago
  You’d be brave to do it as surely it’s a verbal contract enforceable by law.
darkhorn 1y ago
Which one is more dangerous? Killing people (like in Call of Duty and Age of Empires II) or nudity? Why one is more normalized than the other one?
heelix 1y ago
Honestly, wonder if that might work. There were not that many folks involved in the original push against on steam and others. The game publishers really don't want this. The gamers don't. I don't think visa wants the sort of legislation that will be pushed for next if they play that role. The 'think of the children' play .. not sure that is going to work here. Way to many groups have been on the 'wrong side' of a cultural normal to want visa to be the judge here.
50208 1y ago
Imagine if they put this type of effort towards something that matters.
wting 1y ago
Visa, Mastercard, payment processors, banks, etc act as accountability sinks[0] for governments and political group by design. They are arbiters for moving/blocking money, not taking principled stances; there is no net neutrality equivalent for financial networks. There's a lot of wasted discussion talking about an intentional design decision because they're arguing from consumers' perspectives, ignoring the huge benefit to political organizations (e.g. freezing Russian assets). 0: https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks
ksec 1y ago
There is no better time to push for a third payment processor. One that focuses on privacy ( although may not necessarily be anonymous ), smaller amount, maximum of $800 per transaction. Wanting to buy a few hundred dollar worth of goods in modern day does not need to neg or kowtow to some payment companies. Japan has Suica, Hong Kong has Octopus. But I wonder why a lot of these never made their way to online payment. Something I thought Apple Cash would do. But somewhat never materialise.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  Anything run by a major corporation will lead inexorably into predatory financial trickery and tyranny. US credit unions need to band together to launch a nonprofit, co-op P2P cash, credit card, and debit payment app with: - a Stripe-/Shopify-easy payment processing backend - low-cost, open source NFC terminals that integrate with conventional brick-and-mortar registers
utbabya 1y ago
Interesting, DDoS in real life. Or rather slashdotting, since those are legitimate queries. If I were Visa/Mastercard leadership I think at least part of me would be happy to see this blow up, long term wise. Hey it's not me pushing back now, it's prigs versus the people, with a much higher chance of legislation change come out of it. Which IMO is just in this case, common carrier status as it should have, open to judicial requested blockages based on laws that are draft by folks elected by the population. We've a buncha RFCs specifying the architecture with three branches to deal with these problems in the most agreeable way to most people, as good as we could come up with as a species. Rather than drafting new RFCs without understanding the why those three branches needed to exist, how about patching them. Complete rewrite works too but that should incorporate all the crystalized knowledge in the legacy version, which we all know is hard.
EasyMark 1y ago
The CC companies really need to tell the Debbie Downers and pearl clutchers to go pound sand. The CC companies hold all the power here, but are too cautious to push back, in the meanwhile they're losing out on all the commission money on Legal Sales. I personally find most conventional porn these days kind of sick and demeaning to women, and thoroughly dislike it, but they have a right to exist to as consenting adults. I completely fail to understand why they'd ever ban gaming comissions. No reason that CC companies should have to play arbiter of morals.
mock-possum 1y ago
It drives me up the wall that payment processors are allowed to be the morality police, instead of being legally mandated to neutrally perform their essential function.
AraceliHarker 1y ago
It seems like among them, some won't be satisfied with just email bombing and might even go to Visa, opening fire. Porn game otaku who prioritize cracking down on porn over presidential censorship are truly frightening.
nenxk 1y ago
I wish steam didn’t fold if they were to say no not doing that and payment processors removed their services the outrage from consumers would have been 100x worse and I’m confident visa or Mastercard would have backed down steam could have released a statement just saying they aren’t gonna allow someone else to dictate what they do with their platform and it would have been a massive PR win for them
stubish 1y ago
Have Visa and Mastercard ever not acted in tandem with this sort of block? Is it time for the duopoly to be prosecuted as a cartel?
man4 1y ago
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Friedduck 1y ago
If I recall correctly project 2025 had an item about targeting pornography. I could be wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me if the payment processors wanted to avoid the ire of the current administration and preemptively took action.
charlieyu1 1y ago
The interesting part is that Visa and Mastercard can't just cutoff their CS hotlines
TheeDeKay 1y ago
This is grounds for a lawsuit. last i checked in America this is a violation of the first amendment. just have steam incorporate a location system to block certain content in certain places. simple fix and no risk of a class action lawsuit that's about to hit all of them.

625 points by mrzool 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

This is just a peek into a possible future. With the trend of eliminating cash, the powers that be can prevent people from buying anything deemed harmful. Or a large company can close down a small but innovative competitor with a flick of the wrist. Yes, some may save the bitcoins will save us from this. But seeing all governments are looking closely to regulate the *coins, I believe it will be locked down just like the credit cards. So we need to ensure we keep cash available.

DJBunnies 1y ago
Actually with today’s levels of chain analysis, Monero would be a better coin pick from a privacy perspective.
- efnx 1y ago
  And zcash would be better than Monero for privacy reasons.
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    citation ? (not doubting, just out of the loop)
  - DJBunnies 1y ago
    How’s that? Zcash is opt in privacy, Monero is by default.
    - madars 1y ago
      All modern Zcash wallets are shielded-only.
  - lesuorac 1y ago
    I assume a merchant would want a stablecoin more than Monero/zcash so that there's more assurance that the coins will sell for the same price.
darth_avocado 1y ago
> So we need to ensure we keep cash available The problem with that is there are a number of ways to prevent you from holding cash as well. Bank regulations around how much money you can withdraw/access, scrutiny around how much money you can carry to an airport, asset forfeiture without due process etc. all allow governments to coerce you into whatever they want. Cash is not necessarily a solution either.
- clown_strike 1y ago
  Currently at an airport right now. Nobody will even TAKE cash. I could be holding a million dollars right now but I cant use any of it to buy a coke. Availability is not the bottleneck.
  - catlikesshrimp 1y ago
    Which airport? (My third world country airport stablishments accept cash payments. There are vending machines which do, too)
  - _Algernon_ 1y ago
    Time to admit that this bloke was right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je246B2NKLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je246B2NKLE
- bell-cot 1y ago
  Sure, cash is far from ideal. But it's something we already have (zero implementation resistance/delay/cost). And it still works fine (at least at small scales) when the power fails, or internet is down, or server gets hacked, or whatever.
  - darth_avocado 1y ago
    Correct. But I’m mostly addressing the GP’s comments around the need for preserving cash as a mechanism against government/private entity overreach, which it isn’t.
dleslie 1y ago
Each bill of American paper currency has a unique serial number. In practical terms, this means that paper money is not guaranteed to be untraceable for transactions; particularly when engaging in the sort of transactions where large stacks of cash are moved between banks.
- wtallis 1y ago
  Traceability of transactions doesn't seem at all related to the issue at hand.
- blahyawnblah 1y ago
  I don't keep track of my serial numbers. No one does except banks. Banks don't know who gets what serial number when you withdraw cash.
  - ghssds 1y ago
    You can start here: https://www.wheresgeorge.com/ https://www.wheresgeorge.com/ Enjoy! ;)
  - em-bee 1y ago
    according to a german report ATMs can scan the serial numbers when the money is dispensed, logging them to the account from which the money is withdrawn. it's generally not done now, but it is technically possible. in china it apparently is already enforced. elsewhere at a minimum they track which notes are sent to which ATM in order to resolve ATM robberies. likewise when money is deposited, it is being scanned for fakes. counting and sorting machines can track the serial number too: https://netzpolitik.org/2025/bargeld-tracking-du-hast-ueberwachungsinstrumente-im-portemonnaie/ https://netzpolitik.org/2025/bargeld-tracking-du-hast-ueberw... https://www.citechsensors.com/en/technology.html https://www.citechsensors.com/en/technology.html
  - jmb99 1y ago
    > Banks don't know who gets what serial number when you withdraw cash. Do you have evidence to back this up? In Canada, many bank branches don't carry cash except at ATMs, which means 100% of the cash transactions at those branches go through ATMs. Bills are inserted without an envelope, and are counted one by one, which means they're already being optically scanned (read: photographed) to determine the denomination. It's not a stretch that the serial number could be captured at this phase. When bills are withdrawn, they're withdrawn off the top (or bottom) of a stack of bills, so it is known which elements are removed from the stack. Again, it would not be infeasible to track all of the serial numbers in the stack, in order, and associate those numbers with withdrawals. I do not have evidence that this occurs, but I've always assumed it was at least possible. It's technically trivial. But if you're claiming that it's either impossible or it doesn't happen, I'd need some convincing evidence that that's the case.
BitwiseFool 1y ago
>"But seeing all governments are looking closely to regulate the coins, I believe it will be locked down just like the credit cards." The Bitcoin crowd is adamant that no government can regulate Bitcoin. They are correct in the sense that Congress is unable to pass a law dictating what the Bitcoin protocol must do, and that as a decentralized network people are free to follow whichever fork of Bitcoin they choose. However, they have not given much consideration to the fact that governments have full authority to regulate those that use Bitcoin. In other words, no government needs to change Bitcoin. All they need to do is dictate what the lawful use of Bitcoin looks like in their jurisdiction. There is nothing stopping a government from declaring that all wallets owned by their citizens must be registered, and that all transactions must be voluntarily reported to the authorities. In the context of this article, I doubt that a government would prohibit the sale of these games, but I agree with your assertion that the government is likely to start locking down cryptocurrencies in some way that impedes privacy.
- wbnns 1y ago
  > There is nothing stopping a government from declaring that all wallets owned by their citizens must be registered, and that all transactions must be voluntarily reported to the authorities. This would likely drive capital and the fintech companies and financial institutions behind it to friendlier countries and more welcoming markets.
praptak 1y ago
We'll all just use Tide: https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/ https://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/
spongebobstoes 1y ago
In Seattle, many small businesses refuse to accept cash because of repeated break ins. Cash is unfortunately a liability for small businesses.

dmitrygr 1y ago

Good. Payment processors need to either be regulated or voluntarily self-commit themselves to processing all legal payments. Nobody asked them to act as censors. Also: this is why cash should not die

dleslie 1y ago
Americans ought to adopt the Canadian Interac system.
- Eric_WVGG 1y ago
  I hadn't heard of Interac before but it looks perfect. It’s outrageous that private duopolies control > 95% of transactions in the country.
  - throawaywpg 1y ago
    in Canada im pretty sure 95% of the population doesn't know Interac is Canadian only or different from debit in any way.
- dmitrygr 1y ago
  Perhaps Canada should hang its head in shame and stay humbly quiet on the topic of de-banking https://www.newsweek.com/banks-have-begun-freezing-accounts-linked-trucker-protest-1680649 https://www.newsweek.com/banks-have-begun-freezing-accounts-...
  - dleslie 1y ago
    Nothing shameful about attempting to use temporary, non-violent means to end the occupation of the nations' capital, and the blockage of border crossings, when the occupying group has produced a MOU that calls for the dissolution of Government and voluntary removal of all bureaucrats and Senators who disagree with them, under threat of the Governor General refusing to allow Parliament to sit again.
    - 1y ago

GaggiX 1y ago

Even Mouthwashing got delisted by itch io, it's pretty insane how censorship is escalating in these last few days.

dewey 1y ago
I think you are basing this on false information. > This game hasn’t been indexed since October 2024 since it doesn’t meet our indexing criteria: https://itch.io/docs/creators/getting-indexed#why-isnt-my-project-showing-up https://itch.io/docs/creators/getting-indexed#why-isnt-my-pr... > The developers are using a “Download” button as a link to Steam. The developer took down any playable files form this page in 2024.
- GaggiX 1y ago
  You can literally read the developer response: https://x.com/siarate/status/1949739112182714819 https://x.com/siarate/status/1949739112182714819 "And ofc Mouthwashing got yoinked from itch search results lol"
  - dewey 1y ago
    I kinda trust the admin of itch.io more that posted that reply I quoted above 20 minutes ago: https://itch.io/post/13496611 https://itch.io/post/13496611
    - johnnyanmac 1y ago
      I don't. I'd rather have a proper rep than a potentially powertripping moderator.
      - BrawnyBadger53 1y ago
        Read the comments on the itch page linked then. It's pretty clear from archiving that the moderator isn't just making things up ad hoc

dehugger 1y ago

Is there a reason steam hasn't just changed policy so that adult games can only be purchased with store credit? They already have systems in place to load a steam balance, which isnt refundable, and then buy games with it. Just lock these games to only use that payment type...

qualeed 1y ago
Visa/Mastercard can, conceivably, just tell Steam "if X content is available on the platform at all, regardless of payment method, we will no longer process your payments."
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Stablecoins and FedNow instant payments are options. Walmart is about to offer Pay by Bank using FedNow instant payments rails to avoid credit card interchange fees, for example. Does Coinbase offer payment processing yet? Could be the next Superapp competing against PayPal’s global digital wallet.
  - qualeed 1y ago
    Coins, maybe. FedNow is US-specific, though. In any case, as it stands right now, Steam losing Visa/MC processing entirely would be catastrophic to their business.
    - toomuchtodo 1y ago
      Visa and Mastercard are for profit companies. Harder for commercial banks and the Federal Reserve to block payments unless you’re straight up breaking the law or KYC/AML. (payments are adjacent to my day gig, and I have to talk to FiServ and other FIs occasionally on the topic of moving money at a fintech)
      - qualeed 1y ago
        >Harder for banks and the Federal Reserve to block payments That will vary by country, and the Federal Reserve is also US-specific. There are gamers in more countries than just the US :). But yes, I certainly agree that the duopoly of Visa/MC needs to go.

ThrowawayR2 1y ago

The leadership at Visa, Mastercard, etc. know damned well that consumers and businesses have no other realistic options than them and that a consumer campaign is unlikely to sustain itself for more than a few weeks. What we need is pressure on politicians, particularly Democratic legislators and candidates who are desperate for an issue that will garner them support and votes.

eastbound 1y ago
The question I have about most conspiracies including this one is: Why? What’s the motive? You can do everything with a debit card, it probably already happened that Visa was used to facilitate buying a weapon for a school shooting: Were they annoyed? You can buy a dildo with a Mastercard on Amazon: Are they annoyed? But games? Why?
- devmor 1y ago
  Ideology. Some religious, some not. Loud, wealthy people with extremist beliefs are behind most of the actions that restrict our ability to exercise our rights. This one in particular is an attack on art. It’s not just games, but traditional types of art as well that are currently affected by this issue. There is a certain ideology that views non-mainstream art - particularly art that tells a story about uncomfortable subjects - as something “degenerate” to be eradicated.
  - flumpcakes 1y ago
    I would strongly argue that a game that's only purpose is to seek enjoyment from the forceable rape of your family members is no 100% squarely in the 'degenerate' camp. Fictional media or not.
    - devmor 1y ago
      I strongly suggest that you spend a couple minutes reading what that word means and where it comes from before you continue to use it. It may say something about you to others that you would really rather not have them believe about your beliefs.

benoau 1y ago

> “We raised our objection to rape and incest games on Steam for months, and they ignored us for months,” reads a blog post from Collective Shout. “We approached payment processors because Steam did not respond to us.” Right about now Visa and Mastercard realizing they should have done the same.

Forgeties79 1y ago
The problem is that in the current environment all it takes is one right wing grifter to go “visa protects rapists and pedophiles and their sick twisted games/fantasies” for conservative “boycotts” and negative PR campaigns to go in to full swing. And if they survive that, there’s always a chance the current White House will catch wind and use it themselves as a cudgel.
- stelonix 1y ago
  It is not specific to right wing grifters. Left wing grifters use the same talking points but with a different reason behind. Yet they want to censor the same products: one group based on puritanism & moralism while the other based on feminism & LGBT rights. Both extremes want the same thing.
  - jennyholzer 1y ago
    I don't think it makes sense to label either group of grifters based on stated political affiliation; These groups are linked because they are both grifters. The politics are just a costume that ingratiates the grifter with their target market.
    - AlexandrB 1y ago
      I don't get why they're being called grifters. These groups - both left and right - probably genuinely believe this stuff is harmful and are following their beliefs to their logical conclusion. I don't think companies should bow to such pressure, but that doesn't make them "grifters". "Grifter" seems like the new shorthand for "person I don't like".

AlienRobot 1y ago

I feel like it should be a law that you can't provide information to someone about what their their customers/employees are doing out of your own accord. Credit card companies have no business in knowing what their customers are buying. They should just process the payment with the minimum amount of information possible. Turning private entities into investigator and judge isn't good for anyone. It ends up in a game of who can annoy them the most, and the entity will be wasting time trying to appease both sides. Leave these things to the government. At least then you need evidence and have due process.

weard_beard 1y ago
Everyone is doing their job as private entities with their own standards... except the government who are supposed to break up monopolies. I blame elizabeth warren.
nemomarx 1y ago
As far as I know steam doesn't share what you bought on the transaction - it just says you spent it on steam. What's happened here is that someone has complained it's visible on the store at all.
- AlienRobot 1y ago
  I mean that they told Visa/Mastercard that the client Steam/Steam customers are selling/buying certain types of products. Now that they are aware of it, they can be pressed to do something about it. Conversely, if they weren't made aware about it, they could just go on with their business as usual. Personally I think it's better for private entities to stay neutral and leave political decisions to the government. It's hard to stay neutral about things when you know things are happening, so when you inform a private entity about what people are doing with their services, you are turning that private entity into a political entity.
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    Fair, although it would be better if the banks had some equivalent of section 230 protection from having to do anything about what they're processing, maybe.

deleted 1y ago

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Kapura 1y ago

It's crazy that we live in a world where maybe a few dozen people's weird ideas about what shouldn't be allowed can cause payment processors to pressure the storefronts to delist the titles. It is censorship of something they personally find distasteful. guess what: nobody is forcing you to play weird art games about trauma. obviously we must keep the pressure up on payment processors to reverse course, but we also need to push back against people in society who think they can decide what other adults are allowed to do on their own time. If folks IRL have weird ideas pushed back on IRL we wouldn't get to crisis points like this.

deleted 1y ago
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littlestymaar 1y ago
Freedom of speech goes both ways, even people we disagree with are free to express their opinions. The real problem is how can it be legal for payment provider to forbid stuff that isn't illegal, no matter what it is. Had Steam decided to deplatform some content, it's up to them (although centralization through steam of other platform causes an unwarranted concentration of power) but that third parties can intervene an have a say in what is allowed and what isn't anywhere on the internet is a very serious trouble.
- arcfour 1y ago
  The payment provider has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, being forced to do business with someone is the same thing as compelling someone to speak (or not speak). Two wrongs don't make a right.
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    There are two parts in this argument I disagree with: - that doing business is akin to speech. - that corporations are entitled human rights (freedom of speech). Also, freedom of speech means nothing for humans if corporations can force their customers not to discuss certain topics in the name of “I don't want to do business with someone who says that”.

motbus3 1y ago

What is happening to the world right now where everyone wants to act like the censor or the ruler? Omg

CivBase 1y ago
This isn't new. It's just an increasing problem in a digital, cashless world and people are getting sick of it.
_Algernon_ 1y ago
It's a consequence of concentration of power. People and organizations do what they have the power to do. Which is why the democracy is built on splitting power between as many people as possible. Private, consolidated mega-corporations largely sidestep the democratic process, and these kind of things are the consequence of that.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
It's nothing new, just the newest wave of credit card attacks based on ideaology. But what's going on: lots of unrest in the world mixed with a dying generation with the most wealth trying to secure a legacy. Awful combination for freedom and livelihood.
averageRoyalty 1y ago
Visa/Mastercard have been doing this for decades, it's certainly not a "right now" thing. You might just be hearing about it.

duxup 1y ago

Payment processors as gatekeepers is absurd, even worse the entire system is completely opaque. A local company who makes swords (very nice ones) ran into an issue where they couldn't take credit cards. No warning, they weren't even told, they were just added to a list and couldn't take payment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIcohyT5Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIcohyT5Dc They still haven't completely resolved the issue / don't know how they ended up on a bad list. The idea that someone somewhere else complains inside an opaque system, and your ability to do business ends without warning is absurd. You can't appeal, you can't talk to anyone, you're just hosed. In some cases you AREN'T EVEN TOLD what is going on.

calvinmorrison 1y ago
Paypal blocked our entire account because we sold a product called "La Aroma De Cuba", a cigar manufactured in nicaragua. No discussion would resolve it. We regexed the product name on the payload to replace it with LADC and we were reinstated.
- devmor 1y ago
  I had a similar experience with a payment processor for a client that sold manufacturing accessories for a completely benign industry - but one morning they were suddenly cut off and forbidden from processing all transactions. The payment gateway would not tell us why, just that the account was permanently suspended for “service violations”. We had to quickly onboard them onto a new gateway, and while testing in their sandbox environment a rep saw the issue. Turned out one of their products ended up with an auto-generated part code that had the four-letter term for sexual assault in it. That was it.
  - viraptor 1y ago
    I wonder how many rapeseed oil sellers ran into this. Scunthorpe problem strikes again.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    You'd think we'd be passsed basic word filters for major industries like this. I guess all grapevines (and wineries, by extension) are screwed as well. And people wonder why many are anxious about AI. Garbage in, garbage out. Automating the process amplifies that.

CivBase 1y ago

I want to believe the headline, but I've seen too much "gamer fury" to think it will result in meaningful change. Then again, things are looking good for the Stop Killing Games campaign so maybe the "gamer" demographic is big enough now to have real influence.

qualeed 1y ago
The "Stop Killing Games" movement is a lot more palatable to the general public. (It can be boiled down to "I should be able to play the thing I bought and paid for") As soon as you mention to someone uninvolved what started this conversation (incest games and such), you're climbing an uphill battle. It's the same reason why "protect the children" arguments often work, no matter how flawed.
__loam 1y ago
The video game industry takes in more money than movies. It's absolutely huge.
- hofrogs 1y ago
  Isn't that mostly from mobile game microtransactions?
  - __loam 1y ago
    Based on my 5 seconds of Googling, games made about $190b in revenue, 55% from mobile. Movies made $32b, so even ignoring mobile, games are about double what movies do. Games also have massive projects like Call of Duty that now cost $700 million to develop.
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      Steam as a platform accounts for about $5bn. A good chunk of it is Roblox, Minecraft and Fortnite. Then a handful of really big hitters like GTA and CoD. Excluding those enormous titles, the games industry is smaller than the numbers suggest. Which is to say, the big fish are the ones with the most influence and least likely to be affected by this.

infecto 1y ago

I have a slightly different opinion. Businesses can decide who they want to do business with unless it’s a protected class. I don’t think Visa is doing anything wrong here. They are in a difficult position as they need to be mindful of the government coming at them as well as chargebacks. Ideally there would be a new entrant here to fill the need.

blackoil 1y ago
Works if Businesses don't have monopoly/duopoly. Also, some sectors are utilities, they should have stronger regulations.
commandlinefan 1y ago
That's the best-case scenario here - Visa and Mastercard take on a much smaller percentage of the world's commerce and some actual competition comes in and picks up the pieces.
sdrinf 1y ago
This absolutely works... until, and when network effects kick in. Payment processors have major network effects in that infra setup is expensive, banks need to be onboarded one-by-one, and whichever network has the most consumers, businesses will gravitate towards it. Iterate this over 20 years, and this always results in natural monopolies / duopolies. This creates a natural chokepoint/linchpin over which millions of people's mutually exclusive needs are getting banged at; including consumers at large, govs at large, and special-interest groups at large. Absent crystal clear legislation -and porn is anything, but- this will always be arbitrary, and leave one side in the dust.
- infecto 1y ago
  I suspect if there was clear rules for the government this would be cut and dry. The fact of the matter is it’s not and that’s why companies like Visa may restrict certain things. There is chargeback risk, risk from the underwriting bank, risk from a state government and risk from the federal government. This is not some free speech problem but rather an issue where a company is having to balance issues from many different parties and weigh the risk.

myko 1y ago

Good. This is and has always been ridiculous.

renewiltord 1y ago

[flagged]

hofrogs 1y ago
Collective Shout is by no means a "progressive" organization. Unless anti-trans, anti-choice fundamentalist christians are now counted as progressives.

numpad0 1y ago

I suspect a lot of people are rather comforted by the fact that it was pornographies that were removed at first. Now the waterline has moved up to horror games[1]. Mouthwashing(2024) is a horror adventure game available on all 3 major game consoles as well as Steam, and now it's hidden on itch.io. Think about that. 1: https://itch.io/search?type=games&q=mouthwashing&classification=game https://itch.io/search?type=games&q=mouthwashing&classificat... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouthwashing_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouthwashing_(video_game)

colonwqbang 1y ago
Crazy, that's a very acclaimed game which won multiple awards. The story alludes to past rape but nothing is depicted in the game. Many of the books we read in school would be banned if these people had their way.
- justsid 1y ago
  No worries, this pearl clutching is getting many books that we read in school banned as well.
  - tofof 1y ago
    Always has been. Julie of the Wolves is a Newbery winner and the sexual assault in the first quarter of the book is central to the entire story. The Giver is another, and deals with euthanasia and infanticide (literally 'abortion after birth'). Number the Stars, again a Newbery winner, dealing with escaping genocide. The Slave Dancer - guess that topic? Summer of the Swans, with a mentally disabled sibling? Shiloh - animal abuse. Maniac Magee - racism. And they've always been being banned for these things. And these are just from the <100 Newbery winners.
    - abustamam 1y ago
      Let's be real. They're probably fine with Maniac Magee not being banned. Thats the only book I've read out of the ones that you shared. Interestingly, that was the book my 3rd grade teacher decided to read aloud during storytime. When I read it again as a teenager I was questioning the choice, but even at age 8 I thought it was well-written. I should read all the other books you listed.

EcommerceFlow 1y ago

I'm disappointed by the GOP for not attacking this point, considering the censorship conservatives faced from the processors.

johnnyanmac 1y ago
Shocker, right wing personalities are hypocrites who don't mind when corruption works in their favor. A shocking development in 2025.

nemomarx 1y ago

in case anyone is interested - collective shout claims they made a thousand phone calls to get the Credit card companies attention on this, so the bar is apparently pretty low. (I assume lower when it's something they already want to do, or think looks good optics wise.) so there's various lists of numbers to call going around online with a target of keeping up that volume for a few weeks. I'm sure it'll fall off eventually but it might be possible to at least match collective shout here.

Zealotux 1y ago

I'm always surprised at how "easy" it is to pressure litteral billion-dollars companies like Visa and Mastercard, don't they make "fuck you money"? How are you even going to cancel them? They're hegemonic.

flumpcakes 1y ago
People assume it's pressure and not the payment processors looking at what people are complaining about and independently deciding it is too risky. These are the same payment processors that stopped allowing payments to porn sites due to the epidemic of 'revenge porn'. I would argue that was a net benefit to society as now these sites only allow 'verified' uploads.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
When you tell them something they want to do anyway, you only need a few calls to confirm their bias. When it's something they hate, they will throw millions to resist the change. It can't be cancelled, but it can be inconvinienced. Emails can be ignored, but snail mail is overwhelming, and call centers can be gummed up. For some reasons, these businesses respond more to these old medium, so gotta make use of it.

yieldcrv 1y ago

Payment processors should be like power and water companies - completely agnostic - by law If you asked a poll about whether an undesirable person should have their power and water cut off, as if it was actually up for debate, many people would treat power and water as a reward to be removed and say yes Its been determined that is a problem, and financial access should be at the same standard

MangoToupe 1y ago

Why we even have private payment processors is a mystery. This is a great example of something that should have been nationalized 50 years ago. Privatization provides zero value to society; fees are high and accountability is low across all providers. Discover is the best (maybe Amex too) but it barely works anywhere outside america.

GuB-42 1y ago
Which nation? Nationalizing means every country will have its own payment processor, how are you going to coordinate all this? Will each platform have to deal with dozens of payment processors that depend on the whims of their respective governments?
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  I'm not saying it's easy. Presumably there must be a way of agreeing on how to coordinate payments across countries and sharing costs between nations. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not worth working toward.
Gormo 1y ago
Is this a joke? You're suggesting that to avoid censorship, multiple competing processors should be instead consolidated into a politically-controlled monopoly? Are you serious?
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  It's already a politically-controlled monopoly (or duopoly). The alleged competition doesn't appear to be benefiting us. Fear of the government is legitimate, but I fear the private payment system we have more in every way.

bsenftner 1y ago

Doubtful. This article is pandering to the game audience, with absolutely no substance. The "overwhelming" is pure lies. Do not believe the hype.

johnnyanmac 1y ago
So what's your counter evidence? Did you call Visa and have empty lines on the phone? did you not receive the email shown in the article?

SilverElfin 1y ago

Some things should be regulated heavily. But payment that is private by default and censorship free should just be a public (government run taxpayer funded) service.

vunderba 1y ago

Relevant online petition: https://www.change.org/p/tell-mastercard-visa-activist-groups-stop-controlling-what-we-can-watch-read-or-play https://www.change.org/p/tell-mastercard-visa-activist-group...

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
I've come to the conclusion that these are worse than useless. Their lack of impact makes them useless. What makes them worse is there may be people who might have done something useful, e.g. call their elected, who now think they've done their bit by "signing" an online petition.

scirob 1y ago

Any call to action to help reduce their power?

nemomarx 1y ago
Slightly different framing but https://yellat.money/ https://yellat.money/ has all the contact information for this. I've seen a few different lists but this should cover it. Technically stripe is the intermediary for itch but they're gesturing at Visa and MasterCard, so those two seem like the important ones right now.

Razengan 1y ago

How is it that Apple/Google/Microsoft are bad and abusing their monopoly/xpoly etc. if they disallow certain things on their platform meanwhile Visa & Mastercard can get away with dictating EVERYTHING in EVERY economy and on EVERY store in EVERY country for DECADES???

amelius 1y ago
I think it is funny how people were totally okay with Apple nannying and dictating them, even defending the company, and only became rebellious when Visa/Mastercard started doing similar things. Tells you something about principles and how far they go.
- Razengan 1y ago
  I mean Apple did not censor shit on MULTIPLE stores that they did not even own. If I go to Apple I expect Apple to be Apple. But when I'm browsing Steam etc I don't see them say "Sorry Apple told us to remove this"
  - amelius 1y ago
    > If I go to Apple I expect Apple to be Apple. Does that difference matter if you're locked in the Apple ecosystem?
    - Razengan 1y ago
      You don't get it: My usage of Apple is my choice. If the App Store doesn't have something, I can go somewhere else. Visa/Mastercard fucking shit up on Steam, itch, and everywhere else is NOT my choice. Hell, even if I never use Visa/MC and just use bank → PayPal, or cash → Steam gift cards or whatever for all my purchases, why do I still lose access to products because of Visa/MC's whims?
      - amelius 1y ago
        > If the App Store doesn't have something, I can go somewhere else. Only because Apple was legally forced to allow this. This is a recent thing, also.

3acctforcom 1y ago

Hilarious that redditors think calling a call center will do anything, they've clearly never worked at one. Call center employees are nothing to Visa/Mastercard executives. And those same executives are nothing to the billionaire pushing this, he's going straight through the board. People at the bottom really don't know how power works.

kstrauser 1y ago
Execs do care when the call center is so swamped with dealing with external BS that more common complaint calls can't get through, costs per customer skyrocket, and customer support satisfaction nosedives. Don't think of it as some complaint calls. Think of it more like a mass protest. Mayors don't care if 5 people jaywalk. They start caring a whole lot when entire streets are blocked and their residents are demanding a response. Except in the call center case, callers are following the exact documented policy of contacting their bank to complain about bad service. What's Visa going to do, crack down on callers? That would be even worse for customer satisfaction and would probably get the board involved. But a reminder: if you call, be unfailingly polite to the support person. Keep them on the phone as long as possible, but be kind to them. They don't set the policy. This isn't their fault. Visa and Mastercard should be dealing with the pain, not the regular employee who gets paid to help customers with their credit card issues.
DangitBobby 1y ago
TFA talks about how the goal is to gum up the works so real customers are impacted, causing them to lose money.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
The claim is that 1000 calls caused Visa/Mastercard to react. This works in reverse too. And yeah, the call center isn't the point, the loss of productivity (and thus, money) dealing with this issue will make them react. The call centers don't care, but the people up top will see the impact.

jackmottatx 1y ago

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tflinton 1y ago

Before anyone goes with pitchforks at Mastercard or Visa it's worth remembering that just because something isn't criminal it can still be quite a civil issue. Visa and Mastercard take on quite a bit of risk by allowing payment transactions to companies who wade into murky businesses that while not illegal may have a lot of risk. The amount of lawsuits that these processors get co-named in for providing payment rails is probably enormous and without laws protecting them I don't see how they don't have a choice in actively censoring.

johnnyanmac 1y ago
So we're supposed to capitulate to censors because it's hard to do business? If it's too hard, don't do it. I think Visa/Mastercard get more than enough business to justify the inevitbale costs/abuse of the system. >The amount of lawsuits that these processors get co-named in for providing payment rails is probably enormous yes, that's called being a billion dollar business. Literally any billion dollar business is facing dozens of lawsuits on the daily. They have dedicated lawyers on hand for this ineviability.
- tflinton 1y ago
  It’s still a very large considerably risk. They don’t have the equivalent of a net neutrality law to shield them. Money transferred on their network is their liability.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    If so many other cases didn't end the other way in the US, there may have been a point. Websites aren't accountable for user content published on their servers. Gun manufacturers aren't accountable for school shootings, fast food isn't accountable for the obesity crisis. Police aren't accountable for shooting black people. There's a lot that needs to change, but I don't see these businesses bothering. So forgive my lack of sympathy.
    - tflinton 1y ago

zahlman 1y ago

>getting overwhelmed by gamer fury Leave it to Polygon to frame things this way....

deleted 1y ago

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spwa4 1y ago

Overwhelming 2 companies entire customer support departments? I wonder how many people that takes these days ...

johnnyanmac 1y ago
Not as many as you think. Especially with a medium as slow as telephones. even if every call is 2 minutes, 100 calls within a region can gum up a phone work for multiple hours. and with companies trying to operate on ghost crews, they don't exactly have the throughput for this at the moment either.

fsckboy 1y ago

>the [hanging on the line] tactic is motivated by the knowledge that most customer service systems will put people who opt for call-backs in a lower priority queue Are large brand names that are assuring callers that opting for callback will not push you down in the queue lying? I'm not looking for an outpouring of cynicism, I can provide that myself, I'm curious about people who actually know how call centers operate, are they set up to lie as a general practice?

Affric 1y ago
You’d be brave to do it as surely it’s a verbal contract enforceable by law.

darkhorn 1y ago

Which one is more dangerous? Killing people (like in Call of Duty and Age of Empires II) or nudity? Why one is more normalized than the other one?

heelix 1y ago

Honestly, wonder if that might work. There were not that many folks involved in the original push against on steam and others. The game publishers really don't want this. The gamers don't. I don't think visa wants the sort of legislation that will be pushed for next if they play that role. The 'think of the children' play .. not sure that is going to work here. Way to many groups have been on the 'wrong side' of a cultural normal to want visa to be the judge here.

50208 1y ago

Imagine if they put this type of effort towards something that matters.

wting 1y ago

Visa, Mastercard, payment processors, banks, etc act as accountability sinks[0] for governments and political group by design. They are arbiters for moving/blocking money, not taking principled stances; there is no net neutrality equivalent for financial networks. There's a lot of wasted discussion talking about an intentional design decision because they're arguing from consumers' perspectives, ignoring the huge benefit to political organizations (e.g. freezing Russian assets). 0: https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks

ksec 1y ago

There is no better time to push for a third payment processor. One that focuses on privacy ( although may not necessarily be anonymous ), smaller amount, maximum of $800 per transaction. Wanting to buy a few hundred dollar worth of goods in modern day does not need to neg or kowtow to some payment companies. Japan has Suica, Hong Kong has Octopus. But I wonder why a lot of these never made their way to online payment. Something I thought Apple Cash would do. But somewhat never materialise.

burnt-resistor 1y ago
Anything run by a major corporation will lead inexorably into predatory financial trickery and tyranny. US credit unions need to band together to launch a nonprofit, co-op P2P cash, credit card, and debit payment app with: - a Stripe-/Shopify-easy payment processing backend - low-cost, open source NFC terminals that integrate with conventional brick-and-mortar registers

utbabya 1y ago

Interesting, DDoS in real life. Or rather slashdotting, since those are legitimate queries. If I were Visa/Mastercard leadership I think at least part of me would be happy to see this blow up, long term wise. Hey it's not me pushing back now, it's prigs versus the people, with a much higher chance of legislation change come out of it. Which IMO is just in this case, common carrier status as it should have, open to judicial requested blockages based on laws that are draft by folks elected by the population. We've a buncha RFCs specifying the architecture with three branches to deal with these problems in the most agreeable way to most people, as good as we could come up with as a species. Rather than drafting new RFCs without understanding the why those three branches needed to exist, how about patching them. Complete rewrite works too but that should incorporate all the crystalized knowledge in the legacy version, which we all know is hard.

EasyMark 1y ago

The CC companies really need to tell the Debbie Downers and pearl clutchers to go pound sand. The CC companies hold all the power here, but are too cautious to push back, in the meanwhile they're losing out on all the commission money on Legal Sales. I personally find most conventional porn these days kind of sick and demeaning to women, and thoroughly dislike it, but they have a right to exist to as consenting adults. I completely fail to understand why they'd ever ban gaming comissions. No reason that CC companies should have to play arbiter of morals.

mock-possum 1y ago

It drives me up the wall that payment processors are allowed to be the morality police, instead of being legally mandated to neutrally perform their essential function.

AraceliHarker 1y ago

It seems like among them, some won't be satisfied with just email bombing and might even go to Visa, opening fire. Porn game otaku who prioritize cracking down on porn over presidential censorship are truly frightening.

nenxk 1y ago

I wish steam didn’t fold if they were to say no not doing that and payment processors removed their services the outrage from consumers would have been 100x worse and I’m confident visa or Mastercard would have backed down steam could have released a statement just saying they aren’t gonna allow someone else to dictate what they do with their platform and it would have been a massive PR win for them

stubish 1y ago

Have Visa and Mastercard ever not acted in tandem with this sort of block? Is it time for the duopoly to be prosecuted as a cartel?

man4 1y ago

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Friedduck 1y ago

If I recall correctly project 2025 had an item about targeting pornography. I could be wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me if the payment processors wanted to avoid the ire of the current administration and preemptively took action.

charlieyu1 1y ago

The interesting part is that Visa and Mastercard can't just cutoff their CS hotlines

TheeDeKay 1y ago

This is grounds for a lawsuit. last i checked in America this is a violation of the first amendment. just have steam incorporate a location system to block certain content in certain places. simple fix and no risk of a class action lawsuit that's about to hit all of them.