20 ms·

Dumb TVs deserve a comeback

382 points by znpy 2y ago

pabs3 2y ago
Alternatively, we could repurpose smart TVs to run open source software. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
account42 2y ago
> Streaming Devices Are the Real Smart Choice Physical media you own is the only smart choice. No apps, just a BluRay player. Or better yet, .mkv files on a PC. > Connectivity options also need an upgrade. HDMI ports, ARC (Audio Return Channel) support for soundbars, and USB inputs should be standard. DisplayPort should be standard, at least until the HDMI consortium pulls its head out of its arse and allows open source implementations. Of course the TV manufacturers are all part of the HDMI Consortium. Might need antitrust enforcement. This article is pointless though since smart TVs are also dumb TVs. There is no incentive for display TV manufacturers to make a separate SKU without the "smarts" but on most models you don't have to use them.
Gollapalli 2y ago
Aren’t the things all running Android anyway? How hard would it be to flash a ROM? I don’t have a TV to tinker with, but I saw some mentions of ADB on this thread. Seems like the folks on XDA are doing something with this. Might be time for someone suitably inclined to do an FOSS TV distro
ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
I WISH they would make a comeback. Smart TVs are the single worse piece of (shit) consumer electronics on the market. Any time you take anything electronic and connect it to the internet you're asking for trouble. Throw an operating system in it controlled by parasitic advertisers and that's where we are today.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  Thinking about it too much makes me furious. We have supercomputers in our pockets and TVs but it all spies on us and nobody gives a shit because everything is cheap. It's a Faustian deal that sucks! Nobody would actually choose this yet here we are.
  - g-b-r 2y ago
    It's not that nobody gives a shit, it's that the alternatives have been taken away
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      I have the alternative of just plugging in an Apple TV, Nvidia Shield, whatever Google or Amazon makes, any computer with a digital video out port, tons of IPTV boxes that stream tons of pirated channels. All I have to do is not put my wifi password into the TV.
      - freedomben 2y ago
        For now. We are probably going to start seeing manufacturers, shipping, TVs and other devices with LTE chips built into them, so they can go around our Wi-Fi to get the sweet sweet data. At that point, my biggest fear is that all the people (myself included) who thought we were being clever by depriving the TV of the Wi-Fi password are going to be sad that we didn't instead throw our money behind a manufacturer building ethical products.
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        If that isn’t the reality today, how could an alternative “ethical” manufacturer even compete?
        freedomben 2y ago
        There are existing brands that sell dumb TVs. Sceptre is one that I'm fond of. They compete on they aren't the cheapest usually but quite reasonable. Most people want to buy cheaper "smart" TVs though and deprive them off the Wi-Fi password, which makes it harder for dumb TV manufacturers to stay in business and get cheaper through economies of scale, which further compound the problem.
laidoffamazon 2y ago
Let me defend smart TVs for a second I own a smart TV that was at least partially subsidized by the mess of ads I see on the home page. But when manufacturers make a high quality panel, I’m not really convinced there’s a market for dumb TVs - people just use their own box if they want, and the marginal cost of the electronics required may even be negative now that Android/Google TV can also handle TV settings while providing a new revenue source.
- blueflow 2y ago
  Ads come with the spyware to target them.
- ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
  This sounds like Stockholm syndrome. I've an old dumb 1080p Samsung TV. Apart from the panel not being up to date everything about it is better than the smart version that I bought 8 years later.
- nemomarx 2y ago
  the smart TV is probably cheaper, but let me buy some pro grade version of the panel without it and vote with my wallet right?
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    I think I could probably sell you a 55” with no smart features for $4999. Let me know if interested and I can follow up.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      I looked into this briefly. Many TVs run Linux under the hood, and can be flashed, as the firmware is available because of the GPL. (Sometimes. Vizio had to be sued into doing so iirc.) so "all" that has to be done is to repackage and rewrite some firmware, reflash the TV to only ever use HDMI1, and Bob's your uncle. The problem (aside from the fact that redoing the firmware isn't trivial - but that's the fun part) is that TVs are big and bulky, and come in multiple sizes and resolutions. And then shipping them around the country gets expensive, limiting reach, and then that means that taking returns also becomes difficult too. Especially because you'd be reboxing existing televisions to begin with. But maybe you could open up a storefront to sell these from and serve a local area first. Anyway, this is more a comment on the issues with this as bother me, and not an indightment of the whole idea. Someone else with a lot more capital to bootstrap could pull it off - assuming there really is enough of a market for such a product. It might be like the support for a small phone contingent or light truck. There's a vocal crowd that does exist, but they don't exist in great enough quantity relative to the rest of the market, leading to not enough sales to support a business built on that singular premise. The other issue is HDCP. If the Apple/Google TV won't play high res content to your modified firmware, the idea's dead in the water without an additional device like from hdfury, but at that point, how many customers are just going to put up with a "smart" tv?
Terr_ 2y ago
I would love to see this happen. In some ways, it's a story of the wrong system boundaries and modules. A mismatch between component age, manufacturer expertise, and how long software needs to keep being updated or patched. You can see a similar phenomenon in car media systems, where the solution is an interface (e.g. Android Auto or Apple CarPlay) allowing the vehicle to be "dumber" but more reliable and robust over time. [0] Televisions can be rescued even more easily, since we already have standards and conventions from the past to use. [0] For folks unfamiliar with those systems, basically the car's touch-screen becomes an extension of your phone.
baxtr 2y ago
Please anyone in hardware: come up with a TV brand that features no built-in internet connectivity whatsoever. We’d all buy it in a blink. It’s also kinda urgent. I’m clinging onto my 2007 TV because I don’t want a smart TV. Not sure how long it will last.
- teh_infallible 2y ago
  Get a short throw projector. You can plug anything into it. It’s the perfect “dumb” screen.
- OrvalWintermute 2y ago
  I would totally buy it.
- CharlesW 2y ago
  There are always many hundreds of options for "dumb TVs", the secret being that they're called "commercial [TVs|monitors|displays]". For example, B&H lists 2,105 so-called commercial displays as I type this (which you can easily filter to your specifications). https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?q=commercial%20display https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?q=commercial%20display
  - crtasm 2y ago
    I thought their size filter was missing the . but you really can get a 589" display there. Good to see these have added multiple HDMI ports since I last looked.
- Animats 2y ago
  Here's a dumb 43 inch screen. It's sold as a gamer monitor. It's a UHD TV display with HDMI in and no onboard smarts.[1] Here's another Samsung dumb screen, at 55 inches.[2] This is supposed to be for digital signage, but it's really a UHD monitor with HDMI in. But the next size up has "Alexa built in". Sceptre, which mostly supplies Walmart, has a whole line of dumb TVs, including some big ones.[3] They're a little company in City of Industry, CA, which seems to have found their niche in dumb TVs. There are lots of "digital signage" displays available. They're usually very bright, reasonably rugged, OK for 24/7 operation, immune to burn-in (they may spend their whole working life displaying mostly the same fast food menu), but not that good [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-m70d-43-led-4k-uhd-60hz-4ms-smart-monitor-with-hdr-10-hdmi-usb-black/6581675.p?skuId=6581675 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-m70d-43-led-4k-uhd-60hz... [2] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08651PB1J https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08651PB1J [3] https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U750CV-UMRD-75-4K-UHD-TV-product1131category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U750CV-UMRD-75-4K-UHD-T...
seydor 2y ago
Tv content is actually dumb nowadays it makes you dumb, not the tv. My cheap smart tv has a youtube app and it's all i need
linker3000 2y ago
Well, if you are in the UK or some EU countries, Cello has a range; https://celloelectronics.com/shop-televisions/?filter_product-type=televisions&filter_feature=non-smart-tvs https://celloelectronics.com/shop-televisions/?filter_produc...
- mhandley 2y ago
  Unfortunately the best of them is 1080p.
- adrr 2y ago
  Viewsonice, Benq, and even Samsung make dumb monitors for conference rooms and digital signage. They just are more expensive and people don’t want the added cost. Its like consumer grade laptops are loaded with adware that supplements the price paid, compared to enterprise line of laptops which are more expensive.
eximius 2y ago
Who is this article for? I don't disagree with it, but manufacturers aren't somehow unaware of any of it. They don't want to manufacture dumb TVs. They're the ones _currently_ manufacturing smart TVs. Plus, there is the problem that the vast majority of consumers want smart TVs due to a combination of subsidized lower price and "simplicity" (e.g., they may be worse but they are simpler)
coin 2y ago
Just don’t use any of the smart TV’s “smart” functionality. Don’t even connect it to the Internet or give it your Wi-Fi password.
- lucasoshiro 2y ago
  This won't make the "smart" disappear, nor its problems (buggy software, bloatware slowing down everything), and you'll still need to pay more for it.
- ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
  Until they come with their own connection embedded, which you know is what's going to happen. Just like cars.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  Just do your homework before purchasing to make sure this is possible. In this vein, I just bought a Hisense QD6 series TV from Costco. I run it in "store" mode connected to a PC and it serves well as just a big, dumb 4K display.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  It is still creepy to have tech in my home that is trying to betray me, even if it isn’t successful. Also you never know if some well-intentioned person might connect it to wifi.
  - wpm 2y ago
    That’s why you connect it to an IoT network that has no internet access.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      I don’t think that would obviously solve the problem; depending on the UI it might still show up as not having an internet connection after all.
jqpabc123 2y ago
Why dumb TV's won't make a comeback --- price. Manufacturers make recurring revenue by invading the privacy of "dumb" users with their "smart" TVs. It's probably only a matter of time before TV manufacturers establish their own ad networks. Why? Because they can. They have the ability to fully control *their* "smart TV" (that you paid for) and show you ads that they control --- independent of any programming. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/12/tcl-tvs-will-use-films-made-with-generative-ai-to-push-targeted-ads/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/12/tcl-tvs-will-use-fil...
- jszymborski 2y ago
  Regulation could always fix this.
  - jqpabc123 2y ago
    Like regulation has fixed privacy invasion on the internet?
    - eddd-ddde 2y ago
      It could. It has all the power.
    - permo-w 2y ago
      in Europe it's gone a long way towards that
      - raron 2y ago
        The EU couldn't fix the EU-US privacy framework even for the third try, and when the previous one have been invalidated by the CJEU, nobody bat an eye and continued to do the same thing. GDPR is simply ignored by any bigger US company, it took 5 years for NOYB to facebook get fined which was less than 0.3% of their income, basically a small tax, not a huge fine. Also GDPR is full of inconsistency (face biometric data is special data, but a photo of your face from what anybody can get the biometric data is not) and loopholes (required by law, legitimate interest). They did something, but I wouldn't call that "a long way".
linsomniac 2y ago
Reminder: They make them, they tend to be "monitors", "digital signage" or "commercial". You do have to pay a premium for them, for a variety of reasons. There may be other options, I have a friend that 6-10 years ago got a TV, then opened it up and removed a USB stick that implemented all the smart features.
- toast0 2y ago
  Digital signage have embedded computers now too. It's only a matter of time before they have mandatory analytics and advertising.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    TVs intended for digital signage usually contain modular computers meant to be controlled by the user.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    Wouldn't that be pretty good value add? A mic feeding data to some AI model and then camera to track how many people use it or stop and watch.
    - _carbyau_ 2y ago
      You seem to be downvoted by ad haters - ads being a sensitive topic - but in the context of a device made specifically for delivering ads, I agree it seems like a good idea. In the context of being a reasonable human going about my business - I wouldn't want one anywhere near me.
      - Gormo 2y ago
        Why would a business purchase a digital signage display that forced them to show someone else's ads?
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        I think they got downvoted because they misunderstood the idea. "mandatory" analytics and advertising would be working for the manufacturer, not the owner. To be an (antisocial) value-add it would have to work for the owner.
linsomniac 2y ago
I've been fairly happy with the Google/Android TV versions, but the primary feature I bought them for was the ability to pair bluetooth headphones with them. Bluetooth seems to be hard to get, but all Google TVs support them. The lower end TVs can barely do the Google TV features, often being flaky. The higher end ones tend to implement the features much better, though not perfectly. My TLC 6xxx series is much less flaky than the 5xxx series, but I do sometimes have to reboot it at the beginning of every watching session, depending on the app.
- Tagbert 2y ago
  Can’t you just pair your Bluetooth headphones to the device that is providing the video stream? That is the source, the TV should just be the output device.
thom 2y ago
What’s my best bet if I just want a normal computer monitor hooked up to some sort of sound bar, and I’m happy using something like a Chromecast for all TV needs? Or are there monitors with good enough speakers now?
- bluGill 2y ago
  get a seperate usb to audio adaptor and speakers. you can do better than a soundbar.
- teh_infallible 2y ago
  I use a short throw projector with an Apple TV. There’s also a little device called Micca which you can use to play video files you’ve downloaded.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  If you're shoveling your data over to Google anyway then why not just get a smart TV and never use its apps?
  - thom 2y ago
    I’m not paranoid about Google, but smart TVs inevitably come with dreadfully slow boot times, clunky animated menus, and just generally lots of crap to work around, even if you primarily interact with them via HDMI. I miss TVs that respond before you take your finger off the button.
- magnetowasright 2y ago
  Soundbars are bad and there's better alternatives at soundbar price ranges imo. Spend the soundbar money on even a relatively humble set of logitech speakers for a really bare bones simple set up.
  - thom 2y ago
    I’m not really married to that form factor. I guess I’m more curious about HDMI splitters or pass through and what people do there.
lucasoshiro 2y ago
When TVs started to be computers, they started to have computer problems: bugs, outdated software, freezing, and so on. Recently I needed to buy a smart TV to replace a 2015 one that was OK as a TV, but its operating system (...) was so outdated that it couldn't open the apps anymore. This is easy: when we buy a smart TV we buy a TV plus a computer. I really would like pay less only for the TV, using the "smartness" of other "computer" (Chromecast, Apple TV, Fire Stick, videogame console, an old computer, etc). If the TV or the computer stopped working, it's just a matter of buying _only_ it.
- 1over137 2y ago
  Hell, I'd be willing to pay more for a dumb TV!
  - jsheard 2y ago
    If you don't mind paying more, they do exist in the form of digital signage / commercial displays. They're usually either completely dumb or support "smart" features via standardized pluggable modules, which can host a normal x86 computer, amongst other options.
    - MostlyStable 2y ago
      They probably meant "a reasonable amount more". My understanding is that the digital signage/commercial displays are substantially more while often being lacking in features that are important to most consumers. I'd probably also be willing to pay a little bit more, but not very much since, at the moment, unless you are really paranoid about your privacy/spying to the point that you don't want the TV to even have the connectivity hardware at all, most of these issues can be solved by just never connecting it to the internet, having it default to immediately selecting on of your inputs (I don't know how common this feature is by my TCL can do it), and using whatever device you choose on that input.
  - jqpabc123 2y ago
    Yes, I used to feel the same. Until I did some research and found out there is no need to go to this extreme --- at least not yet. It is possible to buy a "smart" TV at a price subsidized by the privacy of "dumb" users and still run it in a "dumb" display mode. With the TV I just bought, this is called "store" mode. I use it as a big, dumb 4K display connected to "smarts" that I can control.
timClicks 2y ago
My workaround is to use a computer monitor connected to a Linux box that I actually control.
causality0 2y ago
So what's the best solution? Suppose you have a dumb TV, or a smart TV locked to a single input. It seems like there are big downsides to most approaches. Rokus and Fire sticks have the same downsides as smart tvs, with ads and laggy interfaces. I currently have one output from my desktop hooked to my TV, but the UI leaves a lot to be desired and of course now I have two input devices to deal with, one for the TV and one for the PC. What's the best way to do it?
- tomwheeler 2y ago
  I use an HDMI switch and it works fine for me.
- maxglute 2y ago
  Find a decent media remote you can single hand with built in keyboard, i.e. lenovo n5902 (discontinued) - a bunch of cheap airmouse works pretty well. Setup macro for browser, boomarkts , microphone use etc. Adjust desktop UI scaling.
mikenew 2y ago
I bought my 65" TV for $299 recently, including shipping to my doorstep. Clearly all the bullshit that's baked into it is subsidizing the price by a lot. I just never gave it network access and I use it like a dumb TV with a streaming box, so I get to benefit from a price subsidized by the the other 98% of the population who are getting exploited. The whole thing is kinda gross. It's like there's this enshittification tipping point that you can't come back from. Realistically, who is going to buy a dumb TV at a much higher cost? People who are already savvy enough to get around a smart TV? People who aren't? I don't see it working.
- ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
  I worry about how long it'll be before the manufacturers either make the TV demand an internet connection, or simply build one right into it.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >Realistically, who is going to buy a dumb TV at a much higher cost? People who are already savvy enough to get around a smart TV? Exactly, that's why all this "I want a dumb TV!" stuff is, well, dumb. It doesn't cost any less for a mfgr to make a dumb TV, in fact it would cost more. Modern TVs need a lot of computing power to make them work properly, so making the thing connect to the internet and show you ads really costs them nothing for hardware. Then they get to subsidize the TV with all the ad revenue, the kickbacks from the various streaming apps pre-installed, etc. A dumb TV would end up having the exact same hardware and a higher price tag. What kind of idiot would buy that? Not enough to make it worthwhile for the mfgr. If you don't want ads, just don't connect the TV to the internet. It's a lot like modern Windows laptops that are cheaper than the same laptop with Linux pre-installed. MS and/or the laptop mfgr get a bunch of kickbacks from the crapware vendors to pre-install their crapware, so you end up paying less than you would for having the mfgr pre-install Linux (a free OS).
robg 2y ago
Just turn off the privacy invading features. LG’s options are pretty great, I’ve seen little bloat, and get the native apps for streaming services just fine.
scosman 2y ago
Just don’t connect it to wifi, connect an Apple TV or similar to hdmi 1, and move on. I’d love a dumb TV, but if you don’t let them online and don’t use built in software it is close enough.
verisimi 2y ago
It's almost like there an agenda to allow for corporate and government control of all technology.
RevertBusload 2y ago
I run airbnbs and would love a low cost dumb TV since I just equip each one with a apple TV box anyways
maltalex 2y ago
Some dumb TVs still exist, only they’re called computer monitors now. And they’re a lot more expensive than TVs because TV-sized monitors are a niche product, and because manufacturers don’t subsidize them in exchange for your data.
mandmandam 2y ago
There used to always be some smug commenter in these threads pointing out that life's better without any TV at all... Guess it's my turn. Really - why bother? Can't you feel how it dominates the room? Don't you resent being constantly programmed by a handful of giant companies hiding behind different brands? Not to mention the ads shouting muck into your brain. The main benefit of a giant HD TV - and please correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that the bigger and brighter the TV, the heavier the mental domination. After a long day/week working, you get to subside into the minima of mental and physical effort. Relaxation and escapism are valid human pastimes, and we have 'choice' over what to watch to a higher degree than ever before... And it's a golden age for TV in many ways. But I can't help but feel that TV's hooks into people's minds are also more cunning than ever. There isn't a nice way to say this, but... I can't help but notice that people who watch cable news, for example, become quite predictably wrong on important topics, and get very worked up over whatever the weekly outrage bait is. It's a toxic brew.. And the same goes for all kinds of other 'programming', from reality shows to celeb gossip to sportsball. Doesn't it ever feel like you're being... Subdued? Or even herded? /smug
- mikestew 2y ago
  Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television https://theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-he-doesnt-own-a-televisi-1819565469/ https://theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-he-doesn...
- nemomarx 2y ago
  Okay but who uses a tv for cable news or any of that? I want to put youtube channels on it while cooking in the kitchen, or play video games on it. Does anyone actually watch "TV" tv anymore? Isn't it mostly streaming services?
  - _carbyau_ 2y ago
    Yeah, for me it is about intentionality. I turn on the TV because I have something in mind I need that TV to display. Often a computer game or a TV show. But I have in mind what I want first, THEN turn it on and do the thing. I have visited people who like to "have the TV on in the background" for whatever reason and it irks me, I can't stand it.
AndrewDucker 2y ago
I have a Samsung smart TV. I removed all of the broadcast channels and it's now an excellent TV. The apps just work, it doesn't show me ads for anything, and I'm perfectly happy with it. Am I just lucky to have found a good manufacturer?
- init2null 2y ago
  My Hisense with Google TV has proven to be decent. I never connected the TV to the internet and went with an external Apple TV instead. It always starts on the last video input. I was able to refuse all the EULAs and was still left with all the visual niceties that I don't use like upscaling and motion smoothing.
- danielscrubs 2y ago
  Samsung and Sony has been the absolute worst in my case. So slow, so much bs. LG works much better, but Im sure it is having a field day with my data.
- magnetowasright 2y ago
  Temporarily using a samsung smart TV is the reason I will sooner have no TV than a smart TV. Worst piece of tech I've ever used. I didn't have any of the smart stuff enabled; I was using it almost exclusively to display HDMI (I watched terrestrial TV for Eurovision once a year) and it was a kafkaesque nightmare. It took 15 minutes (when it worked) to go from standby to displaying HDMI. I had to reflash the damned firmware half the time I went to turn it on (from standby). I could go on for hours about it but I won't lol
Brian_K_White 2y ago
cars too
poisonborz 2y ago
However important, this is a niche problem. Most users will not be able use a dumb TV. Everything becomes more clunky for them. Instead of fighting the uphill battle of making legislation, more people should be made aware of the issue and the - not that complicated - ways to counter this. Pihole, not giving internet (only local network) / and/or only use a trusted device via HDMI to display content.
- xg15 2y ago
  Really? No legislation needed because people (that is, techies with network skills) can just set up piehole? (Until of course that stops working as well because the smart TVs use DoH, eSNI, certificate pinning, etc)
  - Gormo 2y ago
    No legislation is desired because legislation implemented for this kind of purpose inevitably ends up co-opted by the very interests it's targeted against, who rely on it to create barriers to entry for competitors and roadblocks for DIYers, while entrenching their business model indefinitely. Regulatory intervention will ultimately make things like PiHole difficult or impossible, while legitimizing "responsible" viewer tracking and mandatory internet connections for TVs.
YaBa 2y ago
LG owner here. I won't connect it to wifi, lan or BT. Once in a while nags me to do it, I might do it eventually, in it's own VLAN and without Internet access. Here in Portugal all ISP provide a smart box, most of them also have common services like Netflix and so on, no need to any "smart" feature from the TV itself. Completly useless.
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago
  > Completly useless. Not enterely useless, since you payed a lower retail price on it based on manufacturers projected revenue from ads. The best way to kill the business model is to buy them for the high end display tech but then keep them offline.
sitkack 2y ago
PSA, HDMI carries ethernet, so you depending on the device you connect your TV to, it might get internet access without your knowledge.
- mikestew 2y ago
  This come up every time, and yet I have never seen an actual demonstration or example of this. HDMI can carry Ethernet, sure, but you honestly think an (for example) Apple TV is going to let arbitrary devices use its network connection? You gotta show that it even implements the spec first.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    I don't have to do any of those things. I am not going to address all the fallacies in your comment. Whether you have seen an example of it is immaterial to what the HDMI spec says.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ortusdux 2y ago
I just want a somewhat trustworthy group to develop a DUMB certification. I would absolutely pay more for a certified DUMB TV. https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-advertising-inscape-data-privacy-q3-2021 https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-adver...
- pessimizer 2y ago
  I love this idea. I'd even do the "buy a smart tv and refuse the agreement so it acts as a dumb tv" if it were certified to be dumb. Otherwise I have absolutely no reason to trust a goddamn television. They're not even promising me anything; the agreement is a bunch of commitments that I'm making, and they're refusing to provide me their "smart" features because I won't agree to those commitments. That tv can still do whatever it wants to as long as it doesn't break the law in a provable way.
medhir 2y ago
“Smart TVs are, unfortunately, more like smartphones: designed for frequent replacement.” Except unlike smartphones, these TVs are not built with high-end components due to the razor-thin margins that have to be optimized for. So you end up with underpowered hardware and janky software that benefits only these companies through ad revenue.
pfych 2y ago
I bought a 4K 240Hz OLED gaming monitor a week ago and it connects to the internet & has streaming services on it. By default, it has annoying popups on startup that can't be turned off in the default menus[^1]. It's extremely frustrating, but it is on me for not doing my research and just getting the highest-rated monitor across review sites... [^1]: https://pfy.ch/programming/disable-samsung-game-bar.html https://pfy.ch/programming/disable-samsung-game-bar.html
- ycombinatrix 2y ago
  Why did you connect it to the internet?
- mulmen 2y ago
  Return it and buy something else. Don’t put up with the abuse.
- UberFly 2y ago
  Yea return it 100%. No way in hell should a computer monitor be connecting to the internet or have streaming apps. In fact this is the first I've heard of this. "Gaming monitor" in name only.
- 71bw 2y ago
  I don't see the issue if it only pops up when the screen is turned on. In my case that's only when the PC is starting. How often do you turn your screen off...?
hingusdingus 2y ago
If you want the closest thing to a dumb tv search for the hospitality version of a specific television brand.
smitty1e 2y ago
Can we generalize this point to the idea that the user might want to manage the complexity level of products? It's great to have the fully-integrated television that can be controlled by a phone app. This may seem great, until the spyware implications come to mind. In a similar vein, I like all of the gadgetry on the recent car purchase. The sensors are nice; we can all back in an "park tactically" like a pro with these rear cameras. But part of me longs for a purely analog chariot with 1960s-level tech that, sure, requires more skill on my part to operate, but I'm OK with that. This invites the question: if there were a market for a brand new, but de-gunked car, could it even be legally built? Would there be a market? Why not?
furyofantares 2y ago
So did I buy a smart TV at some blink of time when the software had gotten pretty good but not yet infested with ads? I have an LG with WebOS. I guess it might have ads for apps or content if I ever opened the app store thing or whatever it's called. But I never have any reason to do that beyond the initial setup when I installed youtube/netflix/some other apps or when they (very rarely) want an update. So I'm perfectly happy with having apps for various services and a pretty decent UI with pointer remote, and easy casting and screen mirroring from my phone or laptop. These homogenous threads make me wonder if I'm alone or got super lucky on the timing of my purchase. But since the OS does update sometimes I don't think that's it?
- nopcode 2y ago
  Might also be dependent on your location. I have a EU model (LG) and I was able to decline some privacy popups which gives me a functional but dumbed-down version of the OS.
sivers 2y ago
Sorry for my dumb question, but the timing of this topic is perfect because I'm just now considering getting my first TV. Can't I just get a nice OLED smart TV and NEVER connect it to the internet? Put MP4/MKV movies onto a USB stick and watch them in "AUX/USB" mode? Or use HDMI from my computer, and just treat it as a big monitor? It might ask me to connect, but I can just decline and keep watching the USB/HDMI inputs, right?
- the_snooze 2y ago
  You absolutely can. But you'll want to pay attention to how insistent the TV is when it comes to being disconnected from the internet. I have an offline Samsung that will occasionally prompt me to accept the terms of service, which obviously fails because it's offline. I can imagine there are some brands/models that are more pushy.
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    I’ve been very happy with my Sony in this regard. Its OS is extremely basic Android TV and it doesn’t bug you at all if you don’t connect it to the internet. Newer models than the one I have also come with a “basic TV” mode that disables most of the Android TV bells and whistles. Yeah Sony means a higher price, so it’s not going to be as cheap as some other options, but peace is worth a lot of money in my opinion…
    - PenguinCoder 2y ago
      Which Sony models? I have a Bravia and it's android TV all the way, no basic / dumb mode.
      - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
        XBR75X900F, which is a 2018 model and made before they added basic TV mode in 2021.
  - saint_yossarian 2y ago
imgabe 2y ago
Get a projector. I have a Phillips short-throw projector. It has no OS beyond settings. It can have up to a 10' screen. Works great with Apple TV.
- Spivak 2y ago
  I think this is going to be the "hacker" answer for a long time to come. Hardware that by most metrics is technically better, it's a little more expensive (but not commercial signage expensive) and a lot more inconvenient to set up which puts most people off. Functionally immune to ads being a serviceable business because selling cheap and making it up with ad revenue requires volume they'll never have.
  - danpalmer 2y ago
    > Hardware that by most metrics is technically better I think that's a hard one to sell with projectors. Picture quality is substantially worse, and images are substantially less bright, than with TVs. People buy TVs on 3 axes: price, image, and smart features. Here we explicitly don't want the smart features, but TVs are much cheaper and much better image quality (even at that much cheaper price) than with projectors. Brightness matters a lot for where/when you can use them.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      Projector image quality is great, what kinds of projectors are you referencing? Image quality per dollar is a win for TVs but it's not that bad. $3k for a nice movie projector isn't crazy especially given the screen size. https://www.benq.com/en-us/projector/cinema/ht4550i.html https://www.benq.com/en-us/projector/cinema/ht4550i.html And I agree that brightness is an issue but if you "only" want a 65-80" screen then even modest ceiling mount projectors can pump out enough light to compete with daylight.
      - danpalmer 2y ago
        Projector image quality depends on the surface you're projecting onto, the angle you're projecting at, and the light in the room. Maybe the difference is less around $3k, but that's not most people's budget for a TV. Personally I have disposable income and care about image, and spent A$1k on a TV that I'm very happy with. I don't believe there's any comparable projector for less than twice that price.
simonjgreen 2y ago
The cookie pop up is on this site claimed 1,596 partners. Tremendously ironic.
- blitzar 2y ago
  Dumb websites deserve a comeback
lnauta 2y ago
I bought a dumb tv some 2 years ago. 4k, 50ish inch and it has a chromecast v2 attached. Works great. The funny part is when younger family members come over, they get frustrated there's no netflix button on the remote! Last time that lead to a drawing sessions instead of some paw patrol nonsense.
DidYaWipe 2y ago
I bought a projector. "Dumb" as can be. Now... when I decide to blow the money, it's going to be replaced with a 100" TV. For now I'm assuming that I won't have too big a battle to use it as a plain monitor. But I bought a Harmony remote a while ago and returned it after finding out that, to maintain it, I had to set up a BS account with Logitech. A bunch of apologists on Reddit mocked those of us who called out this despicable nonsense. Just a couple months later, we had the last laugh when Logitech pulled the plug on the whole thing.
- MBCook 2y ago
  I was just looking at some earlier because a friend was asking. A lot of them seem to be integrating smart TV features for streaming and such. So your privacy is going away there too.
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    Yep. I think their days are numbered anyway. Unless you're going to project beyond 100", the worst LCD TV is going to blow away the best projector. Once a 98-100" TV is $1000-1500, forget it.
jmyeet 2y ago
Every smart TV you don’t connect to the internet is a dumb TV.
silverlake 2y ago
My new HiSense TV with Google allows to run it as a basic TV. I think this was added to Google TV in 2021. Problem solved.
phantomathkg 2y ago
> Streaming Devices Are the Real Smart Choice This is not true. There are tons of set top boxes out there are underpower piece of garbage. Unless you are getting your hands on Google Streamer/Apple TV.
- montroser 2y ago
  Why wouldn't streaming devices do all the same surveillance? Don't they have as much financial incentive and broad access as tv manufacturers?
  - phantomathkg 2y ago
    Yep. As someone working in the media app industry. I would say it is in device manufacturers and entertainment apps interest to know what the user are interested, to allow them to keep the user using the app/device.
- sneak 2y ago
  The Apple TV also has giant ads on the home screen, too.
  - phantomathkg 2y ago
    Yes, and I only see a marginal point of people choosing Apple TV over "Smart" TV. It tracks, but at least give you the performance.
vlunkr 2y ago
Can we just get some physical buttons back! My tv came with a single multi-purpose button. It’s literally the premise of a dilbert comic. Then the button broke from over use. Just volume, power, change inputs. Not that complicated!
drillsteps5 2y ago
While I agree that smart TVs are a marketing ploy by the manufacturers to increase the revenue by shortening the lifecycle, I'm not buying the premise that I can protect my data by using dumb TVs. Everybody's using AppleTV, Amazon, Google, or Roku devices, which are perfectly capable of collecting that information and using it themselves or feeding it to various vendors (for a reasonable price). Not to mention that all content providers (ie Netflix) are doing exactly the same.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  I have a raspberry pi for "smart" TV use.
  - drillsteps5 2y ago
    ...to stream from which content providers? They still have your viewing history, and that history eventually will end up at the data brokers to be perused by the interested parties. Which is really not that different from if you were using smart TV, except maybe a little bit more revenue for TV manufacturers.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      > ...to stream from which content providers? For me, Netflix, Paramount Plus, and Disney+, along with Youtube. > They still have your viewing history So? That goes without saying. But the TV vendor doesn't get to spy on my date, I get a consistent and fast UI across all video sources and all TVs, and I can watch local, non-streaming video without any third parties being involved. And I have no issue using YouTube without signing in.
    - nemomarx 2y ago
      If you're using only a pi, I think you might be playing local video files acquired in a certain way, tbh. That's the most performance thing for a pi.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Jellyfin
prng2021 2y ago
The author already mentions the benefits of streaming devices. What difference does it make whether you have a dumb or smart tv if the only functionality you use is from a streaming device?
Havoc 2y ago
Yeah that’s never going to happen. The vast majority of the buyer pool consider the smart stuff a feature. So the only way the remaining fraction of a percent of buyer make economic sense is with insane markups. And when people hear about the additional +100% markup or whatever for their artisanal dumb tv the interested pool gets even smaller
GuB-42 2y ago
Dumb TVs are called monitors, you can buy them. For large sizes, I guess you can look at the kind of displays they have in shops and meeting rooms. Today, TVs are by nature not dumb, what make them a TV and not a monitor would be the presence of a tuner, and modern tuners are built-in computers that can at least decode compressed video, which is not a trivial task, especially at 4K. The reason people don't like smart TVs is not because they have a computer inside of them with internet connectivity. It is because of ads and partnership deals. And of course people don't like it, because as much as manufacturers advertise them as features, they are not made to add value for the customer, they actually lower the value. But here is the thing: they lower the price even more. Let's say a manufacturer makes a TV intended to be sold for $300, they reach for their sponsors and can get $50 of deals. Now they can chose to sell a "sponsored" TV for $250 or one without the annoyances for $300, and as it turns out, the majority of customers will go for the $250 option. So much that there is no good economic reason to even sell that $300 ad-free TV, the niche is too small. Competitors without sponsorship deals and $300 TVs will be out-competed by that $250 TV and will have to adjust. As a result, we all have the "smart TVs" we hate (but with a price tag we love). Pros are ready to pay to avoid all that bullshit, but they don't need TVs either, they need monitors, that's why you can find monitors without that bullshit, for a price.
- mgkimsal 2y ago
  > So much that there is no good economic reason to even sell that $300 ad-free TV, the niche is too small. Is it? This is one of those things where I don't feel I've ever had a choice. So... we get the cheapest TV and just hook a laptop up to it, and just watch stuff from a computer via HDMI.
  - yowayb 2y ago
    Agree. I nomad, and about 6 years ago I saw my last TV without an HDMI input. And only once in that time, I came across a DP monitor. I now carry a USB-C to HDMI cable that lets me use my phone as a desktop whenever it's plugged into a TV.
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    > So... we get the cheapest TV and just hook a laptop up to it Exactly, and that's another reason why "ad-free" TVs won't sell. Those who just want to connect their laptop via HDMI will buy the cheapest TV with that feature. They won't pay more to avoid seeing ads in the menu screens they don't use anyways. Now, it may change if they force ads in the HDMI stream or something equally annoying, but they didn't go that far (yet?).
joeyagreco 2y ago
1. If you want the functionality of a smart TV without all of the bloat, I've found Apple TV to be fast and functional. Little to no ads. 2. Running a PiHole (or something similar at a DNS level), you can prevent a lot of the "phoning home" these TVs do. That still does not solve the bloatware/speed issue, but point 1 addresses that.
denkmoon 2y ago
This is so weird. You just don't connect it to the internet. It's that simple. No need for "dumb TVs" to return. Smart TVs are just dumb TVs with extra stuff. I'll care about this when they start embedding 5G SIMs so I can't prevent it connecting.
- hooverd 2y ago
  Hah, if only...
  - dicknuckle 2y ago
    The TV I bought 2 years ago and never connected it to the Internet. Not even for setup. Zero issues.
  - denkmoon 2y ago
    Elaborate?
    - hooverd 2y ago
      Smart TVs using their own DNS, connecting to things like Amazon Sidewalk or any open WiFi point, hell maybe even their own eSIM.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bhaney 2y ago
As long as I can still open them up to remove/destroy all the wireless radios and networking chips and they keep working as a basic display device afterwards, subsidize them with as much crap as you want.
exabrial 2y ago
Dumb cars, dumb blenders as well
protocolture 2y ago
My Kogan is a dumb panel, but I think it was the last year model where they sold both a smart and a dumb version. I imagine if I went looking theres only smart available.
agrippanux 2y ago
A little over a year ago I was checking my home network logs and realized my smart TVs were sending gigs of data to Roku servers - when the TVs were off. I killed all internet access for my TVs, bought Apple TVs to attach to them and never looked back.
johnny_canuck 2y ago
I happened to notice this article in my HN feed a few minutes after cursing at my Samsung TV about how poor it's internal software is. It's shocking how slow and clunky it is. I have a shield connected to it to skirt it for the most part but it's impossible to avoid it entirely. Not to mention how confusing it is for the less technical persons in my family.
sholladay 2y ago
I predict that Apple will do this. Supposedly, they are considering making a TV, after years of not wanting to. And it makes sense with the landscape of today, where TVs have become a privacy nightmare and their interfaces are arguably worse than ever. It seems like ripe picking for Apple, playing to their strengths. If they do end up making a TV, I think it would make sense for it to be a dumb TV. Like how the Pro Display XDR is a dumb monitor, not having speakers or a webcam. Apple already makes a good TV remote, which could probably be repurposed easily. And thanks to CEC, I never use my actual TV remote anymore except to navigate its settings menu on rare occasions. To me, the question is would it have an actual TV tuner in it? Would Apple bother with making a whole interface around scanning for channels and such when it’s not a common use case anymore, adds complexity, and isn’t necessarily in their interest financially? Maybe it will end up being a very large monitor, but sold like a TV. Perhaps alongside the existing Apple TV box, which would hopefully get a rebranding.
- rsyring 2y ago
  IMO, if apple were to make a TV, it wouldn't be dumb. It would probably have similar software as their current Apple TV hardware.
  - Gigachad 2y ago
    The problem was never smart TVs. All the people looking to buy dumb TVs just want to plug a chromecast or raspberry pi in to it to make it a smart TV anyway. The problem is that the built in OS sucks and is full of OEM malware. Apple could fix this by providing an actually good experience.
- dagmx 2y ago
  Why would Apple make a dumb TV though? The Pro Display XDR exists because there’s nothing really comparable in the space with those specs and there’s a market to be had for it. The Studio display similarly exists because the only competitor for specs at the time was its own predecessor. Both exist at a price point where the specs (specifically resolution at those specific screen sizes and HDR for the XDR) trump the higher cost of entry, and they get paired with an Apple device to take advantage of those capabilities. TVs are highly competitive on cost because they’re effectively subsidized. Apple might have better processing but they’d get the same panels as everyone else. Unlike the Mac displays, they’d have to deal with the same content that every other TV has so that’s not a differentiator. There’s no money there for a dumb tv and there’s no differentiator for the average customer. Instead the expectation is that Apple would lplay to its strengths of vertical integration. Build in their Apple TV hardware with Homekit etc on board. If they did anything less it would be panned. The Apple TV experience would be the differentiator. It’s already miles ahead of the competition in the ways an average customer would care about, and brings apples privacy+ad stance to bear.
guidedlight 2y ago
All Sony Bravia TV’s ask you if you want to configure as a dumb TV during initial setup.
- hedora 2y ago
  I was looking at those. Note that they don’t support volume control on their analog line out ports. This is a deal breaker for me. Hisense seems to be the luddite’s best choice in 2024.
  - abenga 2y ago
    What are you using to play the audio from the line-out ports?
    - hedora 2y ago
      An amplifier from the 1970’s.
  - Uvix 2y ago
    "Line out" is supposed to be just that, line level. Not supporting volume control is correct; that should only be used for headphone jacks. (Yes, they're generally compatible, but they are not the same thing.)
    - hedora 2y ago
      This is why good tv’s differentiate between the two. (Max volume on the line out is still safe for the receiver and not headphone level.) It’s just a software feature in the TV’s DAC. Not including it is lazy.
  - aidenn0 2y ago
    That seems like something that could be fixed with a preamp? I run things into my receiver and then to the TV, so I haven't needed a line-out port before.
jamespitts 2y ago
A better way to look at this kind of product would be: TV with an API. Now apply this orientation to any device which you would connect to the TV with an API. Speakers with an API. DVD player with an API. Device to interact with my Apple TV... with an API. Imagine what wonderful things would be made possible by such a class of products. I would pay a lot more for this, and I know that many others would too.
seventytwo 2y ago
“Smart” things are basically just bullshit.
anonymousiam 2y ago
I've got an LG OLED TV that I'm really happy with, because I rooted it before the exploit was patched, so now it's ad-free, and is more capable than any model presently available. https://rootmy.tv https://rootmy.tv
roberttod 2y ago
As much as I agree with the sentiment, I can buy a firestick, Apple TV or Roku for a very small cost. Sure, a dumb TV would be lovely, but only because of a quicker boot time. Given a dumb TV is going to be more expensive, I can't see a market for it based on a small marginal gain for the consumer. And 90% of people don't even care enough about the poor user experience vs the marketing that hypes up features no one uses or needs.
- dagmx 2y ago
  Boot time rarely matters since most TVs just sleep, and not shut down. Cold boots are reserved for failure situations or updates. I agree with the point that most people deal with terrible user experience. A lot of my friends ask me why I went with an Apple TV when my TVs have built in functionality or I could use Roku / whatever Google call their dongles now for cheaper. The answer is experience. I’ve tried to deal without an Apple TV and my god, the number of ads, the slow UI response, color handling etc.. all have me going back to the Apple TV. But none of the stuff I mentioned is worth the price difference to the majority of people.
  - ptmcc 2y ago
    Yeah the Apple TV interface is so much faster, more responsive, and ad-free than virtually every built-in smart TV function. I don't understand how anyone, especially anyone remotely savvy, can stand to use them. Even the "good" ones like the Android TV in my Sony is sluggish clunky garbage in comparison. I gave it a shot when I bought it, but couldn't stand it. Disconnected the TV from the network and just use the Apple TV and it's nearly perfect.
jonnycomputer 2y ago
Still using my 2007 television. It's pretty ass dumb. I have new computer displays of course.
Horffupolde 2y ago
Don’t have a TV to begin with.
AvAn12 2y ago
+1 for Sceptre
xeckr 2y ago
I agree. Hacking a smart TV to bypass/replace its OS would make for an interesting project, though.
enahs-sf 2y ago
Depending on your home setup, projector seems like a decent option as well.
hsuduebc2 2y ago
Oh I would love to have just dumb oled panel with only input cable without that bloatware installed.
jimt1234 2y ago
It's not just TVs. I upgraded the appliances in my kitchen last year. Every "high-end" refrigerator required internet connectivity just to use the product. Most of the dishwashers and ovens had this same requirement.
- ptmcc 2y ago
  I've replaced several appliances recently and while, like TVs, all have wifi garbage built in, I've never once connected any of them and they all function perfectly fine. And on the topic of TVs, my Sony TV also works happily while disconnected and never nags about it.
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
I'm awaiting the LineageOS equivalent for Android TV. Is anyone on that? Custom ROM to drive the TV, no ads, no commercial partnerships. Root your TV.
- sfRattan 2y ago
  I am days late to this thread, but there's at least one person out there putting out builds of LineageOS-based AndroidTV for Raspberry Pis. https://konstakang.com/devices/rpi5/ https://konstakang.com/devices/rpi5/ If you go to the devices menu there's stuff for older models as well. I haven't tried out the builds yet, but have seen reports around the Internet of other people using them with success. Currently playing around with Android TV on a $20 disposable Walmart Onn-branded streaming box to see what apps and customizations are possible before taking the plunge and fiddling with on of my RPi 4Bs. Though you might want a Pi 5 for a 4K TV. Long term goal would be to combine Raspberry Pi, reliable builds of AndroidTV which are downstream of either LineageOS, CalyxOS, or GrapheneOS, and then some kind of IR Receiver like the FLIRC and a remote control.
Hard_Space 2y ago
That was a really keyphrase-saturated article - they're really going for SEO capture!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pipeline_peak 2y ago
I’d like to see a relatable ad campaign. One that’s very “hey, we hear ya, no one actually wants this” type speech. It would certainly catch an eye because what else is there to say? I don’t remember the last tv ad, it was so forgettable. Now to the problem, much of the points the author makes are environmental concerns about “consumer” electronics. This is just so far off base to the older consumer audience and possibly entirely. You have to focus on…the ads and the bloat. Explain why your tv costs slightly more, because you made sure the experience was seamless. I’d really love if this took off, but unfortunately without a titan like Samsung it won’t. Otherwise it’ll just be an outrageously expensive tv with average performance, and we al know that’s not the right formula.
patrakov 2y ago
Big monitors (e.g., Gigabyte AORUS FV43U) are today's best dumb TVs.
- losthalo 2y ago
  Will a Roku stick work with one?
  - patrakov 2y ago
    I have no Roku stick, but reviews mention that BluRay players and Apple TV work fine.
faust201 2y ago
The point is tech savvy users can do all sorts of things like ublock origin, DNS, dumb TV etc The majority of users in this world don't. So there will some people left out to suffer ads/tracking etc.
NemoNobody 2y ago
You can still buy "dumb tvs" tho - well a 2-3 years ago you could I guess. I've never once considered buying a smart TV - nor would I ever.
olalonde 2y ago
HN is so disconnected from reality... No one in the real world actually wants a dumb TV.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Or if they would accept one they would not pay more for one. Minority who would actually do it is so small it is not worth it.
nox101 2y ago
I like dumb articles - articles with still text and pictures - I tried to visit the site and it was covered in "smart ads" - ads using JavaScript to try in every way possible to shove ads in front of me Funny the person complaining about ads is working for a site that is part of the problem
wbharding 2y ago
I think they’re called “commercial displays” now (no malware subsidy like smart TVs tho)
cwales95 2y ago
Whenever I obtain a 'smart' TV, I never connect it to the internet. I don't want a TV that can phone home.
aabiji 2y ago
This is tangential, but I think TV in general, smart or dumb, is slowly becoming obsolete, especially with genZ.
Loranubi 2y ago
Smart TVs are the reason I haven’t bought a new tv in almost 15 years. I would like to upgrade to a fancy 4K one instead of my old 1080p one. Dumb TVs back then weren’t more expensive than smart TVs today so I don’t believe price is the reason for smart TVs. Margins maybe…
- rob 2y ago
  I'm actually using a 47 inch LG 3D TV that I purchased in 2012 that's 1080p. I keep looking for an excuse to upgrade but it's been working fine. It's been almost 15 years as well and I thought they weren't going to last this long for some reason. I don't even use any of the 3D stuff!
someonehere 2y ago
Because of a similar post a few years back I learned you can buy kiosk TVs from commercial vendors. They strip the garbage apps and leave you with a dumb TV. It wasn’t really that much more either. Used them for new conference room TVs for an office build out. They work and last flawlessly.
Aissen 2y ago
Because of mass-market economics, it makes (almost) no difference to the vendor whether the TV is smart or not. So just buy a smart-TV and don't connect it to the internet. It's that simple. Oh, and also, don't forget to live in the EU so you can refuse those contracts that add mandatory data collection. I have documented how you can use an LG TV and disable its obnoxious "Hi LG" feature without giving it internet access: https://social.treehouse.systems/@Aissen/111267905868798609 https://social.treehouse.systems/@Aissen/111267905868798609
_chu1 2y ago
I only purchase Sony TVs, and I simply just connect an HTPC to them. If there are any smart features, I just choose not to accept the EULA and not to connect it to the Internet.
Night_Thastus 2y ago
They will not. Users only care about 2 things: Price and functionality. It doesn't cost manufacturers anything extra at this point to include all the 'smart' features. It would cost more to make a 'dumb' TV. No sane manufacturer is going to make a TV with less features that costs more for the sake of not even a percentage of the consumer base looking for TVs. If you don't like it, buy a TV that's less egregious and get a PiHole. Then don't use the features you don't want. There. Done.

382 points by znpy 2y ago

Alternatively, we could repurpose smart TVs to run open source software. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html

account42 2y ago

> Streaming Devices Are the Real Smart Choice Physical media you own is the only smart choice. No apps, just a BluRay player. Or better yet, .mkv files on a PC. > Connectivity options also need an upgrade. HDMI ports, ARC (Audio Return Channel) support for soundbars, and USB inputs should be standard. DisplayPort should be standard, at least until the HDMI consortium pulls its head out of its arse and allows open source implementations. Of course the TV manufacturers are all part of the HDMI Consortium. Might need antitrust enforcement. This article is pointless though since smart TVs are also dumb TVs. There is no incentive for display TV manufacturers to make a separate SKU without the "smarts" but on most models you don't have to use them.

Gollapalli 2y ago

Aren’t the things all running Android anyway? How hard would it be to flash a ROM? I don’t have a TV to tinker with, but I saw some mentions of ADB on this thread. Seems like the folks on XDA are doing something with this. Might be time for someone suitably inclined to do an FOSS TV distro

ghjfrdghibt 2y ago

I WISH they would make a comeback. Smart TVs are the single worse piece of (shit) consumer electronics on the market. Any time you take anything electronic and connect it to the internet you're asking for trouble. Throw an operating system in it controlled by parasitic advertisers and that's where we are today.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
Thinking about it too much makes me furious. We have supercomputers in our pockets and TVs but it all spies on us and nobody gives a shit because everything is cheap. It's a Faustian deal that sucks! Nobody would actually choose this yet here we are.
- g-b-r 2y ago
  It's not that nobody gives a shit, it's that the alternatives have been taken away
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I have the alternative of just plugging in an Apple TV, Nvidia Shield, whatever Google or Amazon makes, any computer with a digital video out port, tons of IPTV boxes that stream tons of pirated channels. All I have to do is not put my wifi password into the TV.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      For now. We are probably going to start seeing manufacturers, shipping, TVs and other devices with LTE chips built into them, so they can go around our Wi-Fi to get the sweet sweet data. At that point, my biggest fear is that all the people (myself included) who thought we were being clever by depriving the TV of the Wi-Fi password are going to be sad that we didn't instead throw our money behind a manufacturer building ethical products.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        If that isn’t the reality today, how could an alternative “ethical” manufacturer even compete?
        freedomben 2y ago
        There are existing brands that sell dumb TVs. Sceptre is one that I'm fond of. They compete on they aren't the cheapest usually but quite reasonable. Most people want to buy cheaper "smart" TVs though and deprive them off the Wi-Fi password, which makes it harder for dumb TV manufacturers to stay in business and get cheaper through economies of scale, which further compound the problem.

laidoffamazon 2y ago

Let me defend smart TVs for a second I own a smart TV that was at least partially subsidized by the mess of ads I see on the home page. But when manufacturers make a high quality panel, I’m not really convinced there’s a market for dumb TVs - people just use their own box if they want, and the marginal cost of the electronics required may even be negative now that Android/Google TV can also handle TV settings while providing a new revenue source.

blueflow 2y ago
Ads come with the spyware to target them.
ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
This sounds like Stockholm syndrome. I've an old dumb 1080p Samsung TV. Apart from the panel not being up to date everything about it is better than the smart version that I bought 8 years later.
nemomarx 2y ago
the smart TV is probably cheaper, but let me buy some pro grade version of the panel without it and vote with my wallet right?
- renewiltord 2y ago
  I think I could probably sell you a 55” with no smart features for $4999. Let me know if interested and I can follow up.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I looked into this briefly. Many TVs run Linux under the hood, and can be flashed, as the firmware is available because of the GPL. (Sometimes. Vizio had to be sued into doing so iirc.) so "all" that has to be done is to repackage and rewrite some firmware, reflash the TV to only ever use HDMI1, and Bob's your uncle. The problem (aside from the fact that redoing the firmware isn't trivial - but that's the fun part) is that TVs are big and bulky, and come in multiple sizes and resolutions. And then shipping them around the country gets expensive, limiting reach, and then that means that taking returns also becomes difficult too. Especially because you'd be reboxing existing televisions to begin with. But maybe you could open up a storefront to sell these from and serve a local area first. Anyway, this is more a comment on the issues with this as bother me, and not an indightment of the whole idea. Someone else with a lot more capital to bootstrap could pull it off - assuming there really is enough of a market for such a product. It might be like the support for a small phone contingent or light truck. There's a vocal crowd that does exist, but they don't exist in great enough quantity relative to the rest of the market, leading to not enough sales to support a business built on that singular premise. The other issue is HDCP. If the Apple/Google TV won't play high res content to your modified firmware, the idea's dead in the water without an additional device like from hdfury, but at that point, how many customers are just going to put up with a "smart" tv?

Terr_ 2y ago

I would love to see this happen. In some ways, it's a story of the wrong system boundaries and modules. A mismatch between component age, manufacturer expertise, and how long software needs to keep being updated or patched. You can see a similar phenomenon in car media systems, where the solution is an interface (e.g. Android Auto or Apple CarPlay) allowing the vehicle to be "dumber" but more reliable and robust over time. [0] Televisions can be rescued even more easily, since we already have standards and conventions from the past to use. [0] For folks unfamiliar with those systems, basically the car's touch-screen becomes an extension of your phone.

baxtr 2y ago

Please anyone in hardware: come up with a TV brand that features no built-in internet connectivity whatsoever. We’d all buy it in a blink. It’s also kinda urgent. I’m clinging onto my 2007 TV because I don’t want a smart TV. Not sure how long it will last.

teh_infallible 2y ago
Get a short throw projector. You can plug anything into it. It’s the perfect “dumb” screen.
OrvalWintermute 2y ago
I would totally buy it.
CharlesW 2y ago
There are always many hundreds of options for "dumb TVs", the secret being that they're called "commercial [TVs|monitors|displays]". For example, B&H lists 2,105 so-called commercial displays as I type this (which you can easily filter to your specifications). https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?q=commercial%20display https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?q=commercial%20display
- crtasm 2y ago
  I thought their size filter was missing the . but you really can get a 589" display there. Good to see these have added multiple HDMI ports since I last looked.
Animats 2y ago
Here's a dumb 43 inch screen. It's sold as a gamer monitor. It's a UHD TV display with HDMI in and no onboard smarts.[1] Here's another Samsung dumb screen, at 55 inches.[2] This is supposed to be for digital signage, but it's really a UHD monitor with HDMI in. But the next size up has "Alexa built in". Sceptre, which mostly supplies Walmart, has a whole line of dumb TVs, including some big ones.[3] They're a little company in City of Industry, CA, which seems to have found their niche in dumb TVs. There are lots of "digital signage" displays available. They're usually very bright, reasonably rugged, OK for 24/7 operation, immune to burn-in (they may spend their whole working life displaying mostly the same fast food menu), but not that good [1] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-m70d-43-led-4k-uhd-60hz-4ms-smart-monitor-with-hdr-10-hdmi-usb-black/6581675.p?skuId=6581675 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-m70d-43-led-4k-uhd-60hz... [2] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08651PB1J https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08651PB1J [3] https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U750CV-UMRD-75-4K-UHD-TV-product1131category1category73.html https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV/U750CV-UMRD-75-4K-UHD-T...

seydor 2y ago

Tv content is actually dumb nowadays it makes you dumb, not the tv. My cheap smart tv has a youtube app and it's all i need

linker3000 2y ago

Well, if you are in the UK or some EU countries, Cello has a range; https://celloelectronics.com/shop-televisions/?filter_product-type=televisions&filter_feature=non-smart-tvs https://celloelectronics.com/shop-televisions/?filter_produc...

mhandley 2y ago
Unfortunately the best of them is 1080p.
adrr 2y ago
Viewsonice, Benq, and even Samsung make dumb monitors for conference rooms and digital signage. They just are more expensive and people don’t want the added cost. Its like consumer grade laptops are loaded with adware that supplements the price paid, compared to enterprise line of laptops which are more expensive.

eximius 2y ago

Who is this article for? I don't disagree with it, but manufacturers aren't somehow unaware of any of it. They don't want to manufacture dumb TVs. They're the ones _currently_ manufacturing smart TVs. Plus, there is the problem that the vast majority of consumers want smart TVs due to a combination of subsidized lower price and "simplicity" (e.g., they may be worse but they are simpler)

coin 2y ago

Just don’t use any of the smart TV’s “smart” functionality. Don’t even connect it to the Internet or give it your Wi-Fi password.

lucasoshiro 2y ago
This won't make the "smart" disappear, nor its problems (buggy software, bloatware slowing down everything), and you'll still need to pay more for it.
ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
Until they come with their own connection embedded, which you know is what's going to happen. Just like cars.
jqpabc123 2y ago
Just do your homework before purchasing to make sure this is possible. In this vein, I just bought a Hisense QD6 series TV from Costco. I run it in "store" mode connected to a PC and it serves well as just a big, dumb 4K display.
bee_rider 2y ago
It is still creepy to have tech in my home that is trying to betray me, even if it isn’t successful. Also you never know if some well-intentioned person might connect it to wifi.
- wpm 2y ago
  That’s why you connect it to an IoT network that has no internet access.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I don’t think that would obviously solve the problem; depending on the UI it might still show up as not having an internet connection after all.

jqpabc123 2y ago

Why dumb TV's won't make a comeback --- price. Manufacturers make recurring revenue by invading the privacy of "dumb" users with their "smart" TVs. It's probably only a matter of time before TV manufacturers establish their own ad networks. Why? Because they can. They have the ability to fully control *their* "smart TV" (that you paid for) and show you ads that they control --- independent of any programming. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/12/tcl-tvs-will-use-films-made-with-generative-ai-to-push-targeted-ads/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/12/tcl-tvs-will-use-fil...

jszymborski 2y ago
Regulation could always fix this.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  Like regulation has fixed privacy invasion on the internet?
  - eddd-ddde 2y ago
    It could. It has all the power.
  - permo-w 2y ago
    in Europe it's gone a long way towards that
    - raron 2y ago
      The EU couldn't fix the EU-US privacy framework even for the third try, and when the previous one have been invalidated by the CJEU, nobody bat an eye and continued to do the same thing. GDPR is simply ignored by any bigger US company, it took 5 years for NOYB to facebook get fined which was less than 0.3% of their income, basically a small tax, not a huge fine. Also GDPR is full of inconsistency (face biometric data is special data, but a photo of your face from what anybody can get the biometric data is not) and loopholes (required by law, legitimate interest). They did something, but I wouldn't call that "a long way".

linsomniac 2y ago

Reminder: They make them, they tend to be "monitors", "digital signage" or "commercial". You do have to pay a premium for them, for a variety of reasons. There may be other options, I have a friend that 6-10 years ago got a TV, then opened it up and removed a USB stick that implemented all the smart features.

toast0 2y ago
Digital signage have embedded computers now too. It's only a matter of time before they have mandatory analytics and advertising.
- Gormo 2y ago
  TVs intended for digital signage usually contain modular computers meant to be controlled by the user.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Wouldn't that be pretty good value add? A mic feeding data to some AI model and then camera to track how many people use it or stop and watch.
  - _carbyau_ 2y ago
    You seem to be downvoted by ad haters - ads being a sensitive topic - but in the context of a device made specifically for delivering ads, I agree it seems like a good idea. In the context of being a reasonable human going about my business - I wouldn't want one anywhere near me.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      Why would a business purchase a digital signage display that forced them to show someone else's ads?
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      I think they got downvoted because they misunderstood the idea. "mandatory" analytics and advertising would be working for the manufacturer, not the owner. To be an (antisocial) value-add it would have to work for the owner.

linsomniac 2y ago

I've been fairly happy with the Google/Android TV versions, but the primary feature I bought them for was the ability to pair bluetooth headphones with them. Bluetooth seems to be hard to get, but all Google TVs support them. The lower end TVs can barely do the Google TV features, often being flaky. The higher end ones tend to implement the features much better, though not perfectly. My TLC 6xxx series is much less flaky than the 5xxx series, but I do sometimes have to reboot it at the beginning of every watching session, depending on the app.

Tagbert 2y ago
Can’t you just pair your Bluetooth headphones to the device that is providing the video stream? That is the source, the TV should just be the output device.

thom 2y ago

What’s my best bet if I just want a normal computer monitor hooked up to some sort of sound bar, and I’m happy using something like a Chromecast for all TV needs? Or are there monitors with good enough speakers now?

bluGill 2y ago
get a seperate usb to audio adaptor and speakers. you can do better than a soundbar.
teh_infallible 2y ago
I use a short throw projector with an Apple TV. There’s also a little device called Micca which you can use to play video files you’ve downloaded.
add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
If you're shoveling your data over to Google anyway then why not just get a smart TV and never use its apps?
- thom 2y ago
  I’m not paranoid about Google, but smart TVs inevitably come with dreadfully slow boot times, clunky animated menus, and just generally lots of crap to work around, even if you primarily interact with them via HDMI. I miss TVs that respond before you take your finger off the button.
magnetowasright 2y ago
Soundbars are bad and there's better alternatives at soundbar price ranges imo. Spend the soundbar money on even a relatively humble set of logitech speakers for a really bare bones simple set up.
- thom 2y ago
  I’m not really married to that form factor. I guess I’m more curious about HDMI splitters or pass through and what people do there.

lucasoshiro 2y ago

When TVs started to be computers, they started to have computer problems: bugs, outdated software, freezing, and so on. Recently I needed to buy a smart TV to replace a 2015 one that was OK as a TV, but its operating system (...) was so outdated that it couldn't open the apps anymore. This is easy: when we buy a smart TV we buy a TV plus a computer. I really would like pay less only for the TV, using the "smartness" of other "computer" (Chromecast, Apple TV, Fire Stick, videogame console, an old computer, etc). If the TV or the computer stopped working, it's just a matter of buying _only_ it.

1over137 2y ago
Hell, I'd be willing to pay more for a dumb TV!
- jsheard 2y ago
  If you don't mind paying more, they do exist in the form of digital signage / commercial displays. They're usually either completely dumb or support "smart" features via standardized pluggable modules, which can host a normal x86 computer, amongst other options.
  - MostlyStable 2y ago
    They probably meant "a reasonable amount more". My understanding is that the digital signage/commercial displays are substantially more while often being lacking in features that are important to most consumers. I'd probably also be willing to pay a little bit more, but not very much since, at the moment, unless you are really paranoid about your privacy/spying to the point that you don't want the TV to even have the connectivity hardware at all, most of these issues can be solved by just never connecting it to the internet, having it default to immediately selecting on of your inputs (I don't know how common this feature is by my TCL can do it), and using whatever device you choose on that input.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  Yes, I used to feel the same. Until I did some research and found out there is no need to go to this extreme --- at least not yet. It is possible to buy a "smart" TV at a price subsidized by the privacy of "dumb" users and still run it in a "dumb" display mode. With the TV I just bought, this is called "store" mode. I use it as a big, dumb 4K display connected to "smarts" that I can control.

timClicks 2y ago

My workaround is to use a computer monitor connected to a Linux box that I actually control.

causality0 2y ago

So what's the best solution? Suppose you have a dumb TV, or a smart TV locked to a single input. It seems like there are big downsides to most approaches. Rokus and Fire sticks have the same downsides as smart tvs, with ads and laggy interfaces. I currently have one output from my desktop hooked to my TV, but the UI leaves a lot to be desired and of course now I have two input devices to deal with, one for the TV and one for the PC. What's the best way to do it?

tomwheeler 2y ago
I use an HDMI switch and it works fine for me.
maxglute 2y ago
Find a decent media remote you can single hand with built in keyboard, i.e. lenovo n5902 (discontinued) - a bunch of cheap airmouse works pretty well. Setup macro for browser, boomarkts , microphone use etc. Adjust desktop UI scaling.

mikenew 2y ago

I bought my 65" TV for $299 recently, including shipping to my doorstep. Clearly all the bullshit that's baked into it is subsidizing the price by a lot. I just never gave it network access and I use it like a dumb TV with a streaming box, so I get to benefit from a price subsidized by the the other 98% of the population who are getting exploited. The whole thing is kinda gross. It's like there's this enshittification tipping point that you can't come back from. Realistically, who is going to buy a dumb TV at a much higher cost? People who are already savvy enough to get around a smart TV? People who aren't? I don't see it working.

ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
I worry about how long it'll be before the manufacturers either make the TV demand an internet connection, or simply build one right into it.
shiroiushi 2y ago
>Realistically, who is going to buy a dumb TV at a much higher cost? People who are already savvy enough to get around a smart TV? Exactly, that's why all this "I want a dumb TV!" stuff is, well, dumb. It doesn't cost any less for a mfgr to make a dumb TV, in fact it would cost more. Modern TVs need a lot of computing power to make them work properly, so making the thing connect to the internet and show you ads really costs them nothing for hardware. Then they get to subsidize the TV with all the ad revenue, the kickbacks from the various streaming apps pre-installed, etc. A dumb TV would end up having the exact same hardware and a higher price tag. What kind of idiot would buy that? Not enough to make it worthwhile for the mfgr. If you don't want ads, just don't connect the TV to the internet. It's a lot like modern Windows laptops that are cheaper than the same laptop with Linux pre-installed. MS and/or the laptop mfgr get a bunch of kickbacks from the crapware vendors to pre-install their crapware, so you end up paying less than you would for having the mfgr pre-install Linux (a free OS).

robg 2y ago

Just turn off the privacy invading features. LG’s options are pretty great, I’ve seen little bloat, and get the native apps for streaming services just fine.

scosman 2y ago

Just don’t connect it to wifi, connect an Apple TV or similar to hdmi 1, and move on. I’d love a dumb TV, but if you don’t let them online and don’t use built in software it is close enough.

verisimi 2y ago

It's almost like there an agenda to allow for corporate and government control of all technology.

RevertBusload 2y ago

I run airbnbs and would love a low cost dumb TV since I just equip each one with a apple TV box anyways

maltalex 2y ago

Some dumb TVs still exist, only they’re called computer monitors now. And they’re a lot more expensive than TVs because TV-sized monitors are a niche product, and because manufacturers don’t subsidize them in exchange for your data.

mandmandam 2y ago

There used to always be some smug commenter in these threads pointing out that life's better without any TV at all... Guess it's my turn. Really - why bother? Can't you feel how it dominates the room? Don't you resent being constantly programmed by a handful of giant companies hiding behind different brands? Not to mention the ads shouting muck into your brain. The main benefit of a giant HD TV - and please correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that the bigger and brighter the TV, the heavier the mental domination. After a long day/week working, you get to subside into the minima of mental and physical effort. Relaxation and escapism are valid human pastimes, and we have 'choice' over what to watch to a higher degree than ever before... And it's a golden age for TV in many ways. But I can't help but feel that TV's hooks into people's minds are also more cunning than ever. There isn't a nice way to say this, but... I can't help but notice that people who watch cable news, for example, become quite predictably wrong on important topics, and get very worked up over whatever the weekly outrage bait is. It's a toxic brew.. And the same goes for all kinds of other 'programming', from reality shows to celeb gossip to sportsball. Doesn't it ever feel like you're being... Subdued? Or even herded? /smug

mikestew 2y ago
Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television https://theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-he-doesnt-own-a-televisi-1819565469/ https://theonion.com/area-man-constantly-mentioning-he-doesn...
nemomarx 2y ago
Okay but who uses a tv for cable news or any of that? I want to put youtube channels on it while cooking in the kitchen, or play video games on it. Does anyone actually watch "TV" tv anymore? Isn't it mostly streaming services?
- _carbyau_ 2y ago
  Yeah, for me it is about intentionality. I turn on the TV because I have something in mind I need that TV to display. Often a computer game or a TV show. But I have in mind what I want first, THEN turn it on and do the thing. I have visited people who like to "have the TV on in the background" for whatever reason and it irks me, I can't stand it.

AndrewDucker 2y ago

I have a Samsung smart TV. I removed all of the broadcast channels and it's now an excellent TV. The apps just work, it doesn't show me ads for anything, and I'm perfectly happy with it. Am I just lucky to have found a good manufacturer?

init2null 2y ago
My Hisense with Google TV has proven to be decent. I never connected the TV to the internet and went with an external Apple TV instead. It always starts on the last video input. I was able to refuse all the EULAs and was still left with all the visual niceties that I don't use like upscaling and motion smoothing.
danielscrubs 2y ago
Samsung and Sony has been the absolute worst in my case. So slow, so much bs. LG works much better, but Im sure it is having a field day with my data.
magnetowasright 2y ago
Temporarily using a samsung smart TV is the reason I will sooner have no TV than a smart TV. Worst piece of tech I've ever used. I didn't have any of the smart stuff enabled; I was using it almost exclusively to display HDMI (I watched terrestrial TV for Eurovision once a year) and it was a kafkaesque nightmare. It took 15 minutes (when it worked) to go from standby to displaying HDMI. I had to reflash the damned firmware half the time I went to turn it on (from standby). I could go on for hours about it but I won't lol

Brian_K_White 2y ago

cars too

poisonborz 2y ago

However important, this is a niche problem. Most users will not be able use a dumb TV. Everything becomes more clunky for them. Instead of fighting the uphill battle of making legislation, more people should be made aware of the issue and the - not that complicated - ways to counter this. Pihole, not giving internet (only local network) / and/or only use a trusted device via HDMI to display content.

xg15 2y ago
Really? No legislation needed because people (that is, techies with network skills) can just set up piehole? (Until of course that stops working as well because the smart TVs use DoH, eSNI, certificate pinning, etc)
- Gormo 2y ago
  No legislation is desired because legislation implemented for this kind of purpose inevitably ends up co-opted by the very interests it's targeted against, who rely on it to create barriers to entry for competitors and roadblocks for DIYers, while entrenching their business model indefinitely. Regulatory intervention will ultimately make things like PiHole difficult or impossible, while legitimizing "responsible" viewer tracking and mandatory internet connections for TVs.

YaBa 2y ago

LG owner here. I won't connect it to wifi, lan or BT. Once in a while nags me to do it, I might do it eventually, in it's own VLAN and without Internet access. Here in Portugal all ISP provide a smart box, most of them also have common services like Netflix and so on, no need to any "smart" feature from the TV itself. Completly useless.

DoingIsLearning 2y ago
> Completly useless. Not enterely useless, since you payed a lower retail price on it based on manufacturers projected revenue from ads. The best way to kill the business model is to buy them for the high end display tech but then keep them offline.

sitkack 2y ago

PSA, HDMI carries ethernet, so you depending on the device you connect your TV to, it might get internet access without your knowledge.

mikestew 2y ago
This come up every time, and yet I have never seen an actual demonstration or example of this. HDMI can carry Ethernet, sure, but you honestly think an (for example) Apple TV is going to let arbitrary devices use its network connection? You gotta show that it even implements the spec first.
- sitkack 2y ago
  I don't have to do any of those things. I am not going to address all the fallacies in your comment. Whether you have seen an example of it is immaterial to what the HDMI spec says.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ortusdux 2y ago

I just want a somewhat trustworthy group to develop a DUMB certification. I would absolutely pay more for a certified DUMB TV. https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-advertising-inscape-data-privacy-q3-2021 https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/10/22773073/vizio-acr-adver...

pessimizer 2y ago
I love this idea. I'd even do the "buy a smart tv and refuse the agreement so it acts as a dumb tv" if it were certified to be dumb. Otherwise I have absolutely no reason to trust a goddamn television. They're not even promising me anything; the agreement is a bunch of commitments that I'm making, and they're refusing to provide me their "smart" features because I won't agree to those commitments. That tv can still do whatever it wants to as long as it doesn't break the law in a provable way.

medhir 2y ago

“Smart TVs are, unfortunately, more like smartphones: designed for frequent replacement.” Except unlike smartphones, these TVs are not built with high-end components due to the razor-thin margins that have to be optimized for. So you end up with underpowered hardware and janky software that benefits only these companies through ad revenue.

pfych 2y ago

I bought a 4K 240Hz OLED gaming monitor a week ago and it connects to the internet & has streaming services on it. By default, it has annoying popups on startup that can't be turned off in the default menus[^1]. It's extremely frustrating, but it is on me for not doing my research and just getting the highest-rated monitor across review sites... [^1]: https://pfy.ch/programming/disable-samsung-game-bar.html https://pfy.ch/programming/disable-samsung-game-bar.html

ycombinatrix 2y ago
Why did you connect it to the internet?
mulmen 2y ago
Return it and buy something else. Don’t put up with the abuse.
UberFly 2y ago
Yea return it 100%. No way in hell should a computer monitor be connecting to the internet or have streaming apps. In fact this is the first I've heard of this. "Gaming monitor" in name only.
71bw 2y ago
I don't see the issue if it only pops up when the screen is turned on. In my case that's only when the PC is starting. How often do you turn your screen off...?

hingusdingus 2y ago

If you want the closest thing to a dumb tv search for the hospitality version of a specific television brand.

smitty1e 2y ago

Can we generalize this point to the idea that the user might want to manage the complexity level of products? It's great to have the fully-integrated television that can be controlled by a phone app. This may seem great, until the spyware implications come to mind. In a similar vein, I like all of the gadgetry on the recent car purchase. The sensors are nice; we can all back in an "park tactically" like a pro with these rear cameras. But part of me longs for a purely analog chariot with 1960s-level tech that, sure, requires more skill on my part to operate, but I'm OK with that. This invites the question: if there were a market for a brand new, but de-gunked car, could it even be legally built? Would there be a market? Why not?

furyofantares 2y ago

So did I buy a smart TV at some blink of time when the software had gotten pretty good but not yet infested with ads? I have an LG with WebOS. I guess it might have ads for apps or content if I ever opened the app store thing or whatever it's called. But I never have any reason to do that beyond the initial setup when I installed youtube/netflix/some other apps or when they (very rarely) want an update. So I'm perfectly happy with having apps for various services and a pretty decent UI with pointer remote, and easy casting and screen mirroring from my phone or laptop. These homogenous threads make me wonder if I'm alone or got super lucky on the timing of my purchase. But since the OS does update sometimes I don't think that's it?

nopcode 2y ago
Might also be dependent on your location. I have a EU model (LG) and I was able to decline some privacy popups which gives me a functional but dumbed-down version of the OS.

sivers 2y ago

Sorry for my dumb question, but the timing of this topic is perfect because I'm just now considering getting my first TV. Can't I just get a nice OLED smart TV and NEVER connect it to the internet? Put MP4/MKV movies onto a USB stick and watch them in "AUX/USB" mode? Or use HDMI from my computer, and just treat it as a big monitor? It might ask me to connect, but I can just decline and keep watching the USB/HDMI inputs, right?

the_snooze 2y ago
You absolutely can. But you'll want to pay attention to how insistent the TV is when it comes to being disconnected from the internet. I have an offline Samsung that will occasionally prompt me to accept the terms of service, which obviously fails because it's offline. I can imagine there are some brands/models that are more pushy.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  I’ve been very happy with my Sony in this regard. Its OS is extremely basic Android TV and it doesn’t bug you at all if you don’t connect it to the internet. Newer models than the one I have also come with a “basic TV” mode that disables most of the Android TV bells and whistles. Yeah Sony means a higher price, so it’s not going to be as cheap as some other options, but peace is worth a lot of money in my opinion…
  - PenguinCoder 2y ago
    Which Sony models? I have a Bravia and it's android TV all the way, no basic / dumb mode.
    - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
      XBR75X900F, which is a 2018 model and made before they added basic TV mode in 2021.
- saint_yossarian 2y ago

imgabe 2y ago

Get a projector. I have a Phillips short-throw projector. It has no OS beyond settings. It can have up to a 10' screen. Works great with Apple TV.

Spivak 2y ago
I think this is going to be the "hacker" answer for a long time to come. Hardware that by most metrics is technically better, it's a little more expensive (but not commercial signage expensive) and a lot more inconvenient to set up which puts most people off. Functionally immune to ads being a serviceable business because selling cheap and making it up with ad revenue requires volume they'll never have.
- danpalmer 2y ago
  > Hardware that by most metrics is technically better I think that's a hard one to sell with projectors. Picture quality is substantially worse, and images are substantially less bright, than with TVs. People buy TVs on 3 axes: price, image, and smart features. Here we explicitly don't want the smart features, but TVs are much cheaper and much better image quality (even at that much cheaper price) than with projectors. Brightness matters a lot for where/when you can use them.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Projector image quality is great, what kinds of projectors are you referencing? Image quality per dollar is a win for TVs but it's not that bad. $3k for a nice movie projector isn't crazy especially given the screen size. https://www.benq.com/en-us/projector/cinema/ht4550i.html https://www.benq.com/en-us/projector/cinema/ht4550i.html And I agree that brightness is an issue but if you "only" want a 65-80" screen then even modest ceiling mount projectors can pump out enough light to compete with daylight.
    - danpalmer 2y ago
      Projector image quality depends on the surface you're projecting onto, the angle you're projecting at, and the light in the room. Maybe the difference is less around $3k, but that's not most people's budget for a TV. Personally I have disposable income and care about image, and spent A$1k on a TV that I'm very happy with. I don't believe there's any comparable projector for less than twice that price.

simonjgreen 2y ago

The cookie pop up is on this site claimed 1,596 partners. Tremendously ironic.

blitzar 2y ago
Dumb websites deserve a comeback

lnauta 2y ago

I bought a dumb tv some 2 years ago. 4k, 50ish inch and it has a chromecast v2 attached. Works great. The funny part is when younger family members come over, they get frustrated there's no netflix button on the remote! Last time that lead to a drawing sessions instead of some paw patrol nonsense.

DidYaWipe 2y ago

I bought a projector. "Dumb" as can be. Now... when I decide to blow the money, it's going to be replaced with a 100" TV. For now I'm assuming that I won't have too big a battle to use it as a plain monitor. But I bought a Harmony remote a while ago and returned it after finding out that, to maintain it, I had to set up a BS account with Logitech. A bunch of apologists on Reddit mocked those of us who called out this despicable nonsense. Just a couple months later, we had the last laugh when Logitech pulled the plug on the whole thing.

MBCook 2y ago
I was just looking at some earlier because a friend was asking. A lot of them seem to be integrating smart TV features for streaming and such. So your privacy is going away there too.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  Yep. I think their days are numbered anyway. Unless you're going to project beyond 100", the worst LCD TV is going to blow away the best projector. Once a 98-100" TV is $1000-1500, forget it.

jmyeet 2y ago

Every smart TV you don’t connect to the internet is a dumb TV.

silverlake 2y ago

My new HiSense TV with Google allows to run it as a basic TV. I think this was added to Google TV in 2021. Problem solved.

phantomathkg 2y ago

> Streaming Devices Are the Real Smart Choice This is not true. There are tons of set top boxes out there are underpower piece of garbage. Unless you are getting your hands on Google Streamer/Apple TV.

montroser 2y ago
Why wouldn't streaming devices do all the same surveillance? Don't they have as much financial incentive and broad access as tv manufacturers?
- phantomathkg 2y ago
  Yep. As someone working in the media app industry. I would say it is in device manufacturers and entertainment apps interest to know what the user are interested, to allow them to keep the user using the app/device.
sneak 2y ago
The Apple TV also has giant ads on the home screen, too.
- phantomathkg 2y ago
  Yes, and I only see a marginal point of people choosing Apple TV over "Smart" TV. It tracks, but at least give you the performance.

vlunkr 2y ago

Can we just get some physical buttons back! My tv came with a single multi-purpose button. It’s literally the premise of a dilbert comic. Then the button broke from over use. Just volume, power, change inputs. Not that complicated!

drillsteps5 2y ago

While I agree that smart TVs are a marketing ploy by the manufacturers to increase the revenue by shortening the lifecycle, I'm not buying the premise that I can protect my data by using dumb TVs. Everybody's using AppleTV, Amazon, Google, or Roku devices, which are perfectly capable of collecting that information and using it themselves or feeding it to various vendors (for a reasonable price). Not to mention that all content providers (ie Netflix) are doing exactly the same.

throwaway48476 2y ago
I have a raspberry pi for "smart" TV use.
- drillsteps5 2y ago
  ...to stream from which content providers? They still have your viewing history, and that history eventually will end up at the data brokers to be perused by the interested parties. Which is really not that different from if you were using smart TV, except maybe a little bit more revenue for TV manufacturers.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    > ...to stream from which content providers? For me, Netflix, Paramount Plus, and Disney+, along with Youtube. > They still have your viewing history So? That goes without saying. But the TV vendor doesn't get to spy on my date, I get a consistent and fast UI across all video sources and all TVs, and I can watch local, non-streaming video without any third parties being involved. And I have no issue using YouTube without signing in.
  - nemomarx 2y ago
    If you're using only a pi, I think you might be playing local video files acquired in a certain way, tbh. That's the most performance thing for a pi.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Jellyfin

prng2021 2y ago

The author already mentions the benefits of streaming devices. What difference does it make whether you have a dumb or smart tv if the only functionality you use is from a streaming device?

Havoc 2y ago

Yeah that’s never going to happen. The vast majority of the buyer pool consider the smart stuff a feature. So the only way the remaining fraction of a percent of buyer make economic sense is with insane markups. And when people hear about the additional +100% markup or whatever for their artisanal dumb tv the interested pool gets even smaller

GuB-42 2y ago

Dumb TVs are called monitors, you can buy them. For large sizes, I guess you can look at the kind of displays they have in shops and meeting rooms. Today, TVs are by nature not dumb, what make them a TV and not a monitor would be the presence of a tuner, and modern tuners are built-in computers that can at least decode compressed video, which is not a trivial task, especially at 4K. The reason people don't like smart TVs is not because they have a computer inside of them with internet connectivity. It is because of ads and partnership deals. And of course people don't like it, because as much as manufacturers advertise them as features, they are not made to add value for the customer, they actually lower the value. But here is the thing: they lower the price even more. Let's say a manufacturer makes a TV intended to be sold for $300, they reach for their sponsors and can get $50 of deals. Now they can chose to sell a "sponsored" TV for $250 or one without the annoyances for $300, and as it turns out, the majority of customers will go for the $250 option. So much that there is no good economic reason to even sell that $300 ad-free TV, the niche is too small. Competitors without sponsorship deals and $300 TVs will be out-competed by that $250 TV and will have to adjust. As a result, we all have the "smart TVs" we hate (but with a price tag we love). Pros are ready to pay to avoid all that bullshit, but they don't need TVs either, they need monitors, that's why you can find monitors without that bullshit, for a price.

mgkimsal 2y ago
> So much that there is no good economic reason to even sell that $300 ad-free TV, the niche is too small. Is it? This is one of those things where I don't feel I've ever had a choice. So... we get the cheapest TV and just hook a laptop up to it, and just watch stuff from a computer via HDMI.
- yowayb 2y ago
  Agree. I nomad, and about 6 years ago I saw my last TV without an HDMI input. And only once in that time, I came across a DP monitor. I now carry a USB-C to HDMI cable that lets me use my phone as a desktop whenever it's plugged into a TV.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  > So... we get the cheapest TV and just hook a laptop up to it Exactly, and that's another reason why "ad-free" TVs won't sell. Those who just want to connect their laptop via HDMI will buy the cheapest TV with that feature. They won't pay more to avoid seeing ads in the menu screens they don't use anyways. Now, it may change if they force ads in the HDMI stream or something equally annoying, but they didn't go that far (yet?).

joeyagreco 2y ago

1. If you want the functionality of a smart TV without all of the bloat, I've found Apple TV to be fast and functional. Little to no ads. 2. Running a PiHole (or something similar at a DNS level), you can prevent a lot of the "phoning home" these TVs do. That still does not solve the bloatware/speed issue, but point 1 addresses that.

denkmoon 2y ago

This is so weird. You just don't connect it to the internet. It's that simple. No need for "dumb TVs" to return. Smart TVs are just dumb TVs with extra stuff. I'll care about this when they start embedding 5G SIMs so I can't prevent it connecting.

hooverd 2y ago
Hah, if only...
- dicknuckle 2y ago
  The TV I bought 2 years ago and never connected it to the Internet. Not even for setup. Zero issues.
- denkmoon 2y ago
  Elaborate?
  - hooverd 2y ago
    Smart TVs using their own DNS, connecting to things like Amazon Sidewalk or any open WiFi point, hell maybe even their own eSIM.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

bhaney 2y ago

As long as I can still open them up to remove/destroy all the wireless radios and networking chips and they keep working as a basic display device afterwards, subsidize them with as much crap as you want.

exabrial 2y ago

Dumb cars, dumb blenders as well

protocolture 2y ago

My Kogan is a dumb panel, but I think it was the last year model where they sold both a smart and a dumb version. I imagine if I went looking theres only smart available.

agrippanux 2y ago

A little over a year ago I was checking my home network logs and realized my smart TVs were sending gigs of data to Roku servers - when the TVs were off. I killed all internet access for my TVs, bought Apple TVs to attach to them and never looked back.

johnny_canuck 2y ago

I happened to notice this article in my HN feed a few minutes after cursing at my Samsung TV about how poor it's internal software is. It's shocking how slow and clunky it is. I have a shield connected to it to skirt it for the most part but it's impossible to avoid it entirely. Not to mention how confusing it is for the less technical persons in my family.

sholladay 2y ago

I predict that Apple will do this. Supposedly, they are considering making a TV, after years of not wanting to. And it makes sense with the landscape of today, where TVs have become a privacy nightmare and their interfaces are arguably worse than ever. It seems like ripe picking for Apple, playing to their strengths. If they do end up making a TV, I think it would make sense for it to be a dumb TV. Like how the Pro Display XDR is a dumb monitor, not having speakers or a webcam. Apple already makes a good TV remote, which could probably be repurposed easily. And thanks to CEC, I never use my actual TV remote anymore except to navigate its settings menu on rare occasions. To me, the question is would it have an actual TV tuner in it? Would Apple bother with making a whole interface around scanning for channels and such when it’s not a common use case anymore, adds complexity, and isn’t necessarily in their interest financially? Maybe it will end up being a very large monitor, but sold like a TV. Perhaps alongside the existing Apple TV box, which would hopefully get a rebranding.

rsyring 2y ago
IMO, if apple were to make a TV, it wouldn't be dumb. It would probably have similar software as their current Apple TV hardware.
- Gigachad 2y ago
  The problem was never smart TVs. All the people looking to buy dumb TVs just want to plug a chromecast or raspberry pi in to it to make it a smart TV anyway. The problem is that the built in OS sucks and is full of OEM malware. Apple could fix this by providing an actually good experience.
dagmx 2y ago
Why would Apple make a dumb TV though? The Pro Display XDR exists because there’s nothing really comparable in the space with those specs and there’s a market to be had for it. The Studio display similarly exists because the only competitor for specs at the time was its own predecessor. Both exist at a price point where the specs (specifically resolution at those specific screen sizes and HDR for the XDR) trump the higher cost of entry, and they get paired with an Apple device to take advantage of those capabilities. TVs are highly competitive on cost because they’re effectively subsidized. Apple might have better processing but they’d get the same panels as everyone else. Unlike the Mac displays, they’d have to deal with the same content that every other TV has so that’s not a differentiator. There’s no money there for a dumb tv and there’s no differentiator for the average customer. Instead the expectation is that Apple would lplay to its strengths of vertical integration. Build in their Apple TV hardware with Homekit etc on board. If they did anything less it would be panned. The Apple TV experience would be the differentiator. It’s already miles ahead of the competition in the ways an average customer would care about, and brings apples privacy+ad stance to bear.

guidedlight 2y ago

All Sony Bravia TV’s ask you if you want to configure as a dumb TV during initial setup.

hedora 2y ago
I was looking at those. Note that they don’t support volume control on their analog line out ports. This is a deal breaker for me. Hisense seems to be the luddite’s best choice in 2024.
- abenga 2y ago
  What are you using to play the audio from the line-out ports?
  - hedora 2y ago
    An amplifier from the 1970’s.
- Uvix 2y ago
  "Line out" is supposed to be just that, line level. Not supporting volume control is correct; that should only be used for headphone jacks. (Yes, they're generally compatible, but they are not the same thing.)
  - hedora 2y ago
    This is why good tv’s differentiate between the two. (Max volume on the line out is still safe for the receiver and not headphone level.) It’s just a software feature in the TV’s DAC. Not including it is lazy.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  That seems like something that could be fixed with a preamp? I run things into my receiver and then to the TV, so I haven't needed a line-out port before.

jamespitts 2y ago

A better way to look at this kind of product would be: TV with an API. Now apply this orientation to any device which you would connect to the TV with an API. Speakers with an API. DVD player with an API. Device to interact with my Apple TV... with an API. Imagine what wonderful things would be made possible by such a class of products. I would pay a lot more for this, and I know that many others would too.

seventytwo 2y ago

“Smart” things are basically just bullshit.

anonymousiam 2y ago

I've got an LG OLED TV that I'm really happy with, because I rooted it before the exploit was patched, so now it's ad-free, and is more capable than any model presently available. https://rootmy.tv https://rootmy.tv

roberttod 2y ago

As much as I agree with the sentiment, I can buy a firestick, Apple TV or Roku for a very small cost. Sure, a dumb TV would be lovely, but only because of a quicker boot time. Given a dumb TV is going to be more expensive, I can't see a market for it based on a small marginal gain for the consumer. And 90% of people don't even care enough about the poor user experience vs the marketing that hypes up features no one uses or needs.

dagmx 2y ago
Boot time rarely matters since most TVs just sleep, and not shut down. Cold boots are reserved for failure situations or updates. I agree with the point that most people deal with terrible user experience. A lot of my friends ask me why I went with an Apple TV when my TVs have built in functionality or I could use Roku / whatever Google call their dongles now for cheaper. The answer is experience. I’ve tried to deal without an Apple TV and my god, the number of ads, the slow UI response, color handling etc.. all have me going back to the Apple TV. But none of the stuff I mentioned is worth the price difference to the majority of people.
- ptmcc 2y ago
  Yeah the Apple TV interface is so much faster, more responsive, and ad-free than virtually every built-in smart TV function. I don't understand how anyone, especially anyone remotely savvy, can stand to use them. Even the "good" ones like the Android TV in my Sony is sluggish clunky garbage in comparison. I gave it a shot when I bought it, but couldn't stand it. Disconnected the TV from the network and just use the Apple TV and it's nearly perfect.

jonnycomputer 2y ago

Still using my 2007 television. It's pretty ass dumb. I have new computer displays of course.

Horffupolde 2y ago

Don’t have a TV to begin with.

AvAn12 2y ago

+1 for Sceptre

xeckr 2y ago

I agree. Hacking a smart TV to bypass/replace its OS would make for an interesting project, though.

enahs-sf 2y ago

Depending on your home setup, projector seems like a decent option as well.

hsuduebc2 2y ago

Oh I would love to have just dumb oled panel with only input cable without that bloatware installed.

jimt1234 2y ago

It's not just TVs. I upgraded the appliances in my kitchen last year. Every "high-end" refrigerator required internet connectivity just to use the product. Most of the dishwashers and ovens had this same requirement.

ptmcc 2y ago
I've replaced several appliances recently and while, like TVs, all have wifi garbage built in, I've never once connected any of them and they all function perfectly fine. And on the topic of TVs, my Sony TV also works happily while disconnected and never nags about it.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago

I'm awaiting the LineageOS equivalent for Android TV. Is anyone on that? Custom ROM to drive the TV, no ads, no commercial partnerships. Root your TV.

sfRattan 2y ago
I am days late to this thread, but there's at least one person out there putting out builds of LineageOS-based AndroidTV for Raspberry Pis. https://konstakang.com/devices/rpi5/ https://konstakang.com/devices/rpi5/ If you go to the devices menu there's stuff for older models as well. I haven't tried out the builds yet, but have seen reports around the Internet of other people using them with success. Currently playing around with Android TV on a $20 disposable Walmart Onn-branded streaming box to see what apps and customizations are possible before taking the plunge and fiddling with on of my RPi 4Bs. Though you might want a Pi 5 for a 4K TV. Long term goal would be to combine Raspberry Pi, reliable builds of AndroidTV which are downstream of either LineageOS, CalyxOS, or GrapheneOS, and then some kind of IR Receiver like the FLIRC and a remote control.

Hard_Space 2y ago

That was a really keyphrase-saturated article - they're really going for SEO capture!

deleted 2y ago

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pipeline_peak 2y ago

I’d like to see a relatable ad campaign. One that’s very “hey, we hear ya, no one actually wants this” type speech. It would certainly catch an eye because what else is there to say? I don’t remember the last tv ad, it was so forgettable. Now to the problem, much of the points the author makes are environmental concerns about “consumer” electronics. This is just so far off base to the older consumer audience and possibly entirely. You have to focus on…the ads and the bloat. Explain why your tv costs slightly more, because you made sure the experience was seamless. I’d really love if this took off, but unfortunately without a titan like Samsung it won’t. Otherwise it’ll just be an outrageously expensive tv with average performance, and we al know that’s not the right formula.

patrakov 2y ago

Big monitors (e.g., Gigabyte AORUS FV43U) are today's best dumb TVs.

losthalo 2y ago
Will a Roku stick work with one?
- patrakov 2y ago
  I have no Roku stick, but reviews mention that BluRay players and Apple TV work fine.

faust201 2y ago

The point is tech savvy users can do all sorts of things like ublock origin, DNS, dumb TV etc The majority of users in this world don't. So there will some people left out to suffer ads/tracking etc.

NemoNobody 2y ago

You can still buy "dumb tvs" tho - well a 2-3 years ago you could I guess. I've never once considered buying a smart TV - nor would I ever.

olalonde 2y ago

HN is so disconnected from reality... No one in the real world actually wants a dumb TV.

Ekaros 2y ago
Or if they would accept one they would not pay more for one. Minority who would actually do it is so small it is not worth it.

nox101 2y ago

I like dumb articles - articles with still text and pictures - I tried to visit the site and it was covered in "smart ads" - ads using JavaScript to try in every way possible to shove ads in front of me Funny the person complaining about ads is working for a site that is part of the problem

wbharding 2y ago

I think they’re called “commercial displays” now (no malware subsidy like smart TVs tho)

cwales95 2y ago

Whenever I obtain a 'smart' TV, I never connect it to the internet. I don't want a TV that can phone home.

aabiji 2y ago

This is tangential, but I think TV in general, smart or dumb, is slowly becoming obsolete, especially with genZ.

Loranubi 2y ago

Smart TVs are the reason I haven’t bought a new tv in almost 15 years. I would like to upgrade to a fancy 4K one instead of my old 1080p one. Dumb TVs back then weren’t more expensive than smart TVs today so I don’t believe price is the reason for smart TVs. Margins maybe…

rob 2y ago
I'm actually using a 47 inch LG 3D TV that I purchased in 2012 that's 1080p. I keep looking for an excuse to upgrade but it's been working fine. It's been almost 15 years as well and I thought they weren't going to last this long for some reason. I don't even use any of the 3D stuff!

someonehere 2y ago

Because of a similar post a few years back I learned you can buy kiosk TVs from commercial vendors. They strip the garbage apps and leave you with a dumb TV. It wasn’t really that much more either. Used them for new conference room TVs for an office build out. They work and last flawlessly.

Aissen 2y ago

Because of mass-market economics, it makes (almost) no difference to the vendor whether the TV is smart or not. So just buy a smart-TV and don't connect it to the internet. It's that simple. Oh, and also, don't forget to live in the EU so you can refuse those contracts that add mandatory data collection. I have documented how you can use an LG TV and disable its obnoxious "Hi LG" feature without giving it internet access: https://social.treehouse.systems/@Aissen/111267905868798609 https://social.treehouse.systems/@Aissen/111267905868798609

_chu1 2y ago

I only purchase Sony TVs, and I simply just connect an HTPC to them. If there are any smart features, I just choose not to accept the EULA and not to connect it to the Internet.

Night_Thastus 2y ago

They will not. Users only care about 2 things: Price and functionality. It doesn't cost manufacturers anything extra at this point to include all the 'smart' features. It would cost more to make a 'dumb' TV. No sane manufacturer is going to make a TV with less features that costs more for the sake of not even a percentage of the consumer base looking for TVs. If you don't like it, buy a TV that's less egregious and get a PiHole. Then don't use the features you don't want. There. Done.