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Apple mobile processors are now made in America by TSMC
- benoau 2y agoSome of the processors used in the iPhone 14 Pro, 14 Pro Max, 15 and 15 Plus are being made in America by TSMC.
- bydo 2y agoNot even. The only device still in production using the A16 is the iPhone 15 (and plus if you consider that a different model).
- runjake 2y agoIt seems likely the new iPhone SE will be released in the next 12 months, and if so, and it follows past patterns, it'll roughly use the iPhone 14 hardware and thus, the A16.
- dgacmu 2y agoAnd the next base model ipad may use it (or the older a15). iPad is currently using a14.
- whynotminot 2y agoThe SE has always used the latest chip. No chance in hell Apple releases any new phones — even SEs — that can’t do Apple Intelligence.
- ravetcofx 2y agoThe A16 could certainly run the AI with enough RAM
- whynotminot 2y agoMaybe, perhaps. Idk I don’t work at Apple. I’m just telling you that if it follows past SE pattern it’ll be an A18. And they won’t skimp on the RAM because Apple Intelligence is clearly going to be rolled out across their entire product line. 2 + 2 = A18 with 8GB of RAM
- londons_explore 2y ago[flagged]
- whynotminot 2y ago[flagged]
- overstay8930 2y ago[flagged]
- Reason077 2y agoAccording to Apple, the upcoming “Apple Intelligence” features are exclusive to devices with A17 Pro, A18, or M-series chips.
- newaccount74 2y agoApple Intelligence is a bunch of new tech they haven't really released yet. In typical Apple fashion, they start slow, and will improve it year over year. Apple rarely backports new tech to older devices. It probably could run on the older chips, but it doesn't look like Apple isn't going for the widest possible rollout. They are launching it for the newest chips only, and are not wasting time porting it to old chips, when they don't even know yet how it's going to scale. So right now they are focussing on English speaking markets and newest devices only. They are skating to where the puck is going to be, and in a few years no-one will care if their tech runs on the A16 or not. Right now they are focussing on getting this thing launched, and backward compatibility would only slow them down. And its a selling point to get people to buy new iPhones, so it's win/win for Apple.
- papichulo2023 2y agoMaybe for the EU market?
- duckmysick 2y agoIsn't the bulk of Apple Intelligence processing on-device? You want to have powerful chipsets for local, more privacy-friendly processing.
- Lio 2y agoIn most industries regulation is an opportunity for incumbents like Apple. If Apple can profitably provide AI services without breaking privacy laws but their competitors can't Apple wins.
- dannyw 2y agoIt's unlikely to be able privacy laws, but rather DMA / competition laws. Apple Intelligence requires deep access to user data, systems apps, etc to make it useful. Under the DMA, Apple would be required to also offer similar functionality to competitors (e.g. Google).
- overstay8930 2y agoIronically the DMA is telling Apple to reduce privacy to make Apple Intelligence work in the EU, it’s just a populist political attempt at regulating a market. No sane person actually thinks Apple isn’t private enough for EU standards, they’re just not being allowed to compete because they aren’t allowing anyone else access to local user context, which would be a privacy nightmare if done incorrectly.
- guappa 2y agoI think you don't really understand what you're talking about.
- jacooper 2y agoNone of the EU ai rules prohibit apple from enabling apple intelligence in the EU, they just don't want to. Gemini, Claude, chatgpt all already exist.
- ErigmolCt 2y agoNow that I'm thinking about buying a new phone, maybe it's worth waiting for the SE to come out
- nfriedly 2y agoYeah, MacRumors thinks a new iPhone SE is due sometime soon, based mostly on how long it's been since the last model released: https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPhone_SE https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPhone_SE
- GeekyBear 2y agoGoing by past practices and current rumors, I would expect an iPhone 14 body and display (FaceID, OLED, and no large bezels) with the current flagship model SOC and a single recent gen camera module. It will be interesting to see how much they bump up the RAM for Apple Intelligence. New SE models tend to launch in March or April.
- runjake 2y agoYou are correct. I am wrong. And good point about Apple Intelligence. I'm disappointed in myself for not seeing that.
- loeg 2y agoYou think they'll make another SE? I thought that product line was being abandoned.
- meling 2y agoRumors say an update is in the works; my guess is a release early next year. https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/iphone-se/ https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/iphone-se/
- Reason077 2y agoReportedly, the 2025 iPhone SE will use an A18-family SoC (same as this year’s iPhone 16 models).
- aalimov_ 2y agoCould be used in an Apple TV as well?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- janandonly 2y agoYeah why are these chips still produced at all? The iPhone 16 just came out and the 14/15 stockpiles will be sold off for cheaper just to get rid of them. What am I missing?
- BirAdam 2y agoAppleTV, HomePod, a new display. Could be anything. There could also be government or corporate contracts requiring the mass production of a slightly older chip for something.
- windowsrookie 2y agoThe iPhone is not the only product Apple makes. The Apple Watch, TV, iPad, Studio Display, etc. all use variants of older A series SOCs.
- janandonly 2y agoI totally forgot about the Apple TV devices and the screens. Yeah they also need SOCs .
- epistasis 2y agoAfter all the wailing and rending of clothes, the industrial policy worked out great and we have top tier production here in the US, transferring knowledge from TSMC to a US workforce. This is a significant win for the US, and just the beginning of the amazing industrial policy passed over the past few years. US manufacturing is about to be reinvigorated, and we in the US are going to be building our own future both for chips and for energy security. This is great news, and we should celebrate.
- pbhjpbhj 2y agoSo the free market was the enemy all along, what we needed was state planning?
- louwrentius 2y ago[flagged]
- sgu999 2y agoWhat are you doing with these 70TB of storage? I was meant to ask the other day when you reached the front page, but someone asked me a question during the meeting I was in. (Your comment made me giggle so I went looking for more banter on a potential blog, sorry for creeping up)
- louwrentius 2y agoI've answered that question here below the picture: https://louwrentius.com/71-tib-diy-nas-based-on-zfs-on-linux.html https://louwrentius.com/71-tib-diy-nas-based-on-zfs-on-linux...
- anon291 2y agoThe free market actually works great under the assumption of governments not acting irrationally. However, since China has expressed interest in war with Taiwan (not a thing advised by the free market), someone needs to address that. In terms of economics, this is a net loss, but then again, the effects of war in Taiwan would be worse.
- jojobas 2y agoPerhaps a stupid question - what exactly is TSMC contribution to producing Apple designs on ASML equipment?
- hindsightbias 2y agoA couple trillion dollar valuation? You can start here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=asianometry+tsmc https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=asianometry+tsm...
- bydo 2y agoThat ASML is not undercutting TSMC and running off on their own should be telling? There's more to a running a fab than lithography.
- KK7NIL 2y agoApple doesn't design on ASML equipment. Apple (and other fabless companies) designs to a PDK (process design kit, basically rules about how to layout transistors and passives on the die), which is given to them by their foundry (TSMC in this case). There's a lot of steps between circuit design on the PDK to a working high volume process; and ASML machines are only part of that.
- sakras 2y agoThere are a lot of steps involved in making the chips - lithography is only one of them. You have to have the supply chains set up for massive amounts of silicon, you have to have a process for doping the silicon properly, you need quality control, you need to actually build a fab to house the lithography machines, I could go on.
- bri3d 2y agoASML make fancy printers. TSMC and other ASML customers build the designs that let those fancy printers create transistors and then logic gates, as well as a basic library of arrangements for those logic gates (PDK). They also provide all of the raw materials and processes and physics that go into said printers. Apple and other design customers then compile RTL using that PDK to produce a design that can be manufactured using the fab’s process steps. The printers are A hard part but far from The hard part. If you have an ASML machine it is useless to you unless you have also figured out how to build a 3D transistor in layers. Good luck!
- andy_xor_andrew 2y agoto be honest, this is far better news than I was expected, and sooner, too. is anyone else besides Intel making ~4nm* node wafers on US soil? *yes I know I know I know about the misnomer with using nm measurements nowadays
- vitus 2y agoI mean, there are really only three bleeding-edge foundries: TSMC, Samsung, and maybe Intel if they've gotten their yields back on track. Samsung has a fab near Austin, TX that was slated to make 4nm but it's been postponed to 2026 along with a shift to 2nm: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/samsungs-yield-issues-reportedly-delays-taylor-fab-launch-to-2026 https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/samsungs-yield-is... But their yields on 2nm are apparently... not great, so even that's in question. https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=225024 https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=... SMIC is apparently making low-yield 7nm and is supposedly working on even lower-yield 5nm, but absolutely not in the US.
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoYeah I was surprised to hear this is already at a point where they can produce chips. From what I've heard it takes a really serious amount of effort and expertise to calibrate the machines, and get the water filtration and other chemistry working in a new location.
- phkahler 2y agoI thought Intel 4nm was outsourced to TSMC. Or it's a rebranding of an earlier node. Am I mistaken? Do they actually produce that? Here we are: https://www.guru3d.com/story/intel-to-strategically-use-tsmc-4-nm-process-for-arc-xe2-battlemage-gpus/#:~:text=The%20transition%20to%20the%204,the%20largest%20%22Battlemage%22%20variant https://www.guru3d.com/story/intel-to-strategically-use-tsmc....
- brcmthrowaway 2y agoWhy can't America build a TSMC from scratch?
- shiroiushi 2y agoThey did! It's called "Intel".
- arcticbull 2y agoAnd GlobalFoundries (ex-AMD, ex-IBM). There's also less cutting edge process stuff at ONSemi, TI, Micron, Analog Devices, Diodes Inc and I'm sure I'm missing a few. Even Apple has their own fab.
- electronbeam 2y agoI hadn’t heard about Apple, is the node size public?
- arcticbull 2y agoThey picked up the old Maxim fab in San Jose almost 10 years ago. Not sure what's happening in there now and I assume the people who do aren't likely to spill the beans :) unless its as shuttered I guess. [1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/14/apple-buys-former-maxim-chip-fab-in-north-san-jose-neighboring-samsung-semiconductor- https://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/14/apple-buys-former...
- Reason077 2y agoThe San Jose facility is active. There was some controversy surrounding it recently as some members of the public have been complaining that they’ve been illegally releasing solvents into the environment, which resulted in some EPA investigation/enforcement action [1]. According to some reports they may be developing micro-LED display tech there, not necessarily chips. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40772224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40772224
- hindsightbias 2y ago[flagged]
- sedatk 2y agoAbout time. It's easier to secure supply chains domestically.
- trollian 2y agoI wonder how bad the yields are and how long it'll take to get them up to being commercially viable.
- breerbgoat 2y agoThe yields are pretty good - TSMC’s Arizona Trials Put Plant Productivity on Par with Taiwan https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tsmc-arizona-trials-put-plant-125235880.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tsmc-arizona-trials-put-plant...
- wilted-iris 2y agoHas either company verified this?
- 7e 2y agoHow much of this fab's supply chain still comes from Taiwan and/or China? Most especially, where does the fab process equipment itself come from?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- abhinavk 2y ago> the fab process equipment itself come from? Isn't there only one for this kind of scale: ASML?
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoASML for those who don't know is a Dutch company, and supplies the EUV machines for both TSMC and Intel (It is not clear to me if Samsung uses EUV in its current process nodes). I believe they are the only EUV supplier in the world. There are certainly other suppliers other that ASML, since there is a lot of other equipment other than lithography, but that's a critical one for modern process nodes.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoASML has important ops in US offices fwiw https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations/san-diego https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations/san-die...
- kcb 2y agoBesides lithography there are also several US suppliers for semiconductor manufacturing, Applied Materials, Lam Research, KLA.
- tomcam 2y agoA strategic triumph for both the current and previous administrations. Both Trump and Biden handled the situation adroitly. These may not be the absolute bleeding edge tech but it’s a proof of concept that we can wean ourselves from Chinese tech if it becomes necessary. It comes at the cost of many, many Chinese jobs in the midst of a devastating economic downturn there. They are victims of repeated local and geopolitical malpractice by the current emperor. EDIT: User lotsofpulp pointed out that we don’t make any strategic chips in China. That is of course true. I meant that the game of economic chess played by the current and previous administrations has been highly effective in reducing China’s options.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago>It comes at the cost of many, many Chinese jobs in the midst of a devastating economic downturn there As far as I know, TSMC does not make chips in China.
- tomcam 2y agoThey don’t. I was unclear. What I meant to say was that our tightening of sanctions against China has harmed their economy greatly. It is an act of economic war against their acts of economic war.
- chuckadams 2y agoTSMC Fab 10 is in Shanghai. Probably not cutting-edge stuff coming out of there though.
- lamontcg 2y ago> Both Trump and Biden handled the situation adroitly. Trump started trade wars by raising tariffs. Biden passed the CHIPS act, the infrastructure bill, and the build back better act.
- tomcam 2y agoBiden continued Trump tariffs and raised many of them, appropriately. https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/federal/trump-tariffs-biden-tariffs/ https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/federal/trump-tariffs...
- itkovian_ 2y agoTsmc will never allow the Arizona plant to be a viable replacement. They are extremely incentived to prevent this happening.
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoThat's OK. It's on US soil with US employees and can be nationalized if and when need be. I'm sure ASML will be happy to comply or else risk their US operations being nationalized too. Like their DUV/EUV light sources office https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations/san-diego https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations/san-die...
- mindwok 2y agoHow so? They also are extremely incentivised to make this happen. A war on your front door is not good for business.
- bastard_op 2y ago[flagged]
- KSS42 2y agoThe question is where are these chips packaged? Potentially the wafers are shipped to the east for packaging, assembly and test.
- wmf 2y agoPeople will be happy as long as it's not Taiwan (e.g. Singapore or Malaysia).
- trueismywork 2y agoPackaging is much simpler
- BenFranklin100 2y agoEveryone seems to be celebrating this as a victory for the US, but I can’t help but think of David Ricardo’s Law of Comparative advantage. National security concerns aside for a second, what high tech sectors will the US necessarily be investing in less now that we are putting those valuable resources into chip-making? Are these sectors more or less valuable/profitable than chip-making? I don’t have an answer, but this is the framework that needs to be used to address the question. The US can’t do everything, especially with current immigration restrictions on high tech workers.
- kurthr 2y agoLess adtech and crypto? Fewer gamified dating apps? I can think of a lot of negative/zero sum things that have next to no return or longer term advantage than monopoly seeking or greater foolism. They already got plenty of investment when interest rates were near zero. If there hadn't already been a significant semiconductor industry, or if there was some similar employment for those employees/grads to go maybe it would be different. If there wasn't large local demand for the product (and I'm including the packaging which is another issue) it would be different. Given what the US has it makes long term sense to put some 4nm and even 2nm Fabs in the US. Creating geopolitical risk by outsourcing ALL supply is sort of silly, quarterly profits be damned. (even $50B is <0.2% of annual GDP).
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoWe could probably find some ways to encourage the Wall Street types to go get real jobs also.
- littlestymaar 2y ago> Everyone seems to be celebrating this as a victory for the US, but I can’t help but think of David Ricardo’s Law of Comparative advantage This theory has always been an overly simplistic model designed to promote the ideology of free trade. The most obvious problem with it is that it only works in a static world where everything stays the same and as such specializing makes sense. But the world isn't like that, and if everybody invests only in the places where they have a comparative advantage, then you have set up a trade network that is very vulnerable to asymmetric shock: if one good becomes irrelevant or too desired, then the system starts failing. Germans are learning it the hard way now that ICE cars are getting out of fashion. As always, there's a yield/resilience trade off, and at nation scale, favoring yield is a recipe for disaster.
- Animats 2y ago(Some) "in small, but significant, numbers".
- desireco42 2y agoUnless this is election propaganda, which very well it might be, this is huge news. I know there were a lot of problems for this facility and wasn't aware they were this far advanced in production.
- transpute 2y agohttps://www.ft.com/content/3fa44901-33e4-4ab4-9f7b-efe1575a6553 https://www.ft.com/content/3fa44901-33e4-4ab4-9f7b-efe1575a6... & https://archive.ph/FDmwq https://archive.ph/FDmwq > US and Japan are close to a deal to curb tech exports to China’s chip industry.. export controls are designed to close loopholes in existing rules.. make it harder for China to obtain critical chipmaking tools — restrictions that would have the biggest impact on ASML in the Netherlands and Tokyo Electron in Japan.. to restrict servicing, including software updates, and maintenance of the tools..
- nektro 2y agothis is wonderful news. at the same time i hope this doesn't weaken the security posture of Taiwan
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoThe dependency on Taiwan isn't going to go away any time soon, nor is the Taiwan Relations Act (which replaced the Mutual Defense Treaty between the United States and the Republic of China in the late 70s).
- scarface_74 2y agoExactly what does “manufacturing in America” mean? It could be as little as final assembly with most of the work still being done in Taiwan. Like Cook said Mac Pros were “being made in America”.
- wtallis 2y agoThere's not actually that much uncertainty about what a TSMC chip fab does.
- hollerith 2y agoMaybe TSMC is sneaking finished wafers into the Phoenix fab at night and taking away blank wafers :)
- wmf 2y agoIt takes blank wafers in and produces finished wafers just like all other fabs. I would expect test and packaging are performed elsewhere.
- btbuilder 2y agoDo the chips get shipped to China for assembly?
- VWWHFSfQ 2y ago[flagged]
- btbuilder 2y agoAssembly of the phone or device using the processor.
- VWWHFSfQ 2y agowe're talking about the chip itself. Not the phone
- branko_d 2y agoThe dies themselves are "assembled" - cut from the wafer, bonded to the wires (or solder bumps) that carry signals to the rest of the system, and packaged for physical protection and thermal management. In recent times, multi-chiplet architecture has added its own layer of complexity to that process. See also: OSAT.
- chipdude1973 2y agoTwo points to counter the snark: 1. The output of a "chip manufacturing" process is a wafer. There is absolutely further assembly (bonding, packaging) done on this output. 2. The chips themselves are not for the end user's consumption. They are assembled into a product, a "consumer electronic".
- dang 2y agoPlease follow the site guidelines when commenting here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We've had to ask you this before (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35998957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35998957), so if you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- aaronbrethorst 2y agoThat the term "electoral college" does not appear once in this entire thread is telling.
- MeetingsBrowser 2y agoNow it does as a result of this comment. Is that also telling?
- lobochrome 2y agoAnd then sent for packaging to Taiwan and assembly in China?!
- rgreekguy 2y agoThat's horrible news, as I was considering grabbing an iPhone... I guess only refurbished, but still, you can trust an American factory even less.
- al_borland 2y agoApple seems to have pretty tight quality control. Thought it is true, they are likely starting with lower scale production of an older chip to work the bugs out of the system.
- TigerofTao 2y agoThis is troubling news, as we could soon be paying $2,500 for an iPhone within the next three years. The original reason for outsourcing was to keep costs down, and now, with this trade war, it's clear consumers will bear the burden. While some may see the return of manufacturing to the U.S. as a win for national pride, the reality is more complex. The high cost of U.S. labor, combined with excessive bureaucracy, leads to higher production costs, which ultimately get passed on to consumers. There's nothing inherently beneficial about manufacturing in the U.S. other than symbolic gestures tied to identity politics. Most consumers want affordable, high-quality products, not overpriced goods that may be touted as "Made in America" but offer no real value beyond that label. Instead of focusing on where products are made, the priority should be on ensuring that they are durable and not part of a system of planned obsolescence. We want iPhones that last longer, not cost more, yet U.S. manufacturing may drive up prices without offering real improvements in quality or longevity. Unfortunately, the consumer is losing in this scenario—stuck paying for rising costs while receiving little in return. We need to reassess the real benefits of domestic manufacturing and whether they justify the inevitable price hikes. It’s clear that without a shift in strategy, we're moving toward a future where innovation is stifled by political posturing and unnecessary cost inflation.
- negativeonehalf 2y agoChip manufacturing is critical for national security, which is to say world security, if you like the Pax Americana (and you should). This is not some trade war thing. My only actual concern about this is that it may make the US less willing to intervene if the CCP invades Taiwan, and we absolutely should intervene if that happens.
- can16358p 2y agoI get the national security part, but not sure about world security part. Why should I, as an example, who is neither a US citizen nor Taiwanese nor Chinese, should trust a chip being manufactured in the US vs. somewhere else? I'd say it is neutral in regards to world security, not better.
- can16358p 2y agoGenuine question: what upside does it have against supply chain attacks? Is it possible that an adversary to implement a backdoor into a chip design, without Apple noticing it? I'm not a chip designer so perhaps the answer is obvious to some of you guys, but I'd expect some verification mechanism at Apple's side of the manufactured chips to match their original design to verify that they aren't tampered with?
- TOMDM 2y agoI think the vector people talk about most in this context is denial. If an adversary wants to deny access to a fab on American soil they'll need to deny access to dependencies or attack the fab itself.
- knallfrosch 2y agoThe article doesn't mention supply chain attacks. What context are you referring to? I'll take a guess and agree with TOMDM. It's about China invading or blockading Taiwan (remember the US attack/blockade against Cuba? Exactly that.) and thus denying America physical chip shipments.
- can16358p 2y agoNot a specific context in the article. Just wanted to see what (if) aspects it might have as I've seen some other comments around that.
- clippyplz 2y agoVery much possible. Talking more generally about microelectronics - You can imagine the DoD is very interested in making sure they're not putting 'bad' chips in their military hardware, whether 'bad' means backdoored or merely counterfeit. Manufacturing chips in the US means the DoD can investigate the acutal fabs and put cleared personnel on the manufacturing line to make sure nothing untoward is going on. Another strategy is to investigate the chip after it's been manufactured somewhere else and prove that it's the same chip you designed, but that's quite difficult. If you're interested you can read up on the Trusted & Assured Microelectronics (T&AM) program.
- daft_pink 2y agoThe obvious question is when are they going to build 3nm chips here?
- prmoustache 2y agoSince US manufactured products are traditionally reputed to be low quality, should we expect to have to look for serial numbers to get iphones with non buggy A16 chips?
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago"Traditionally reputed" is a vague allusion containing multiple logical fallacies; can you cite some actual sources? Because it's nonsense. Quality is a factor of cost (and cost reduction), not the country of origin.
- FL33TW00D 2y agoThis happened significantly faster than I anticipated.
- hbarka 2y agoIsn’t Taiwan’s success in creating a TSMC correlated to the pyramid of their workforce which supplied skill at every level commensurate for high tech manufacturing’s demands? They have a high number of post-grads in their population AND also a large number of what we in the US call vocational/technical-educated working class. How are we doing as a country over time by the same measure?
- maxglute 2y agoAt what cost meme, but literally, what's the cost of a chip made in TSMC US vs TSMC TW.
- lm28469 2y agoIt's ok their profit margin will go from 50% to 47%, they already have so much money that they don't even know what to do with it anymore
- maxglute 2y agoI'm mainly curious if TSMC estimates that US fabs would cost 50% more is confirmed or not.
- mrguyorama 2y agoIt's hard to not cost more than employees who think it's literally a patriotic duty to sacrifice yourself for a profitable company. American execs Dream of this kind of non-monetary influence on the work force
- anentropic 2y agoPresumably competitive otherwise Apple wouldn't be buying them?
- maxglute 2y agoIIRC morris chang indicated US operated fabs would cost ~50% higher, which is not cost competitive, well not something buyers would sign for without something happening behind the scenes (i.e. US gov pushes Nvidia and Apple to use Intel foundries). If A16 is $100 from TSMC TW, it's $150 from TMSC US, presumably $50 to BOM is something Apple can afford, but most others might not. List of companies who are willing to source at 50% limited (unless incentives).
- gtirloni 2y ago
- gadders 2y agoThis is good news for the US and bad news for Taiwan, geopolitically.
- spiderfarmer 2y agoYou're overestimating the importance of that specific chip.
- gadders 2y agoMy assumption is if they can do that chip, they can do others and there is less need to defend Taiwan and the massive TSMC fab there.
- drexlspivey 2y agoNo, TSMC said that the cutting edge fabs will always be in Taiwan
- jmmcd 2y agoGood news doesn't have to mean overwhelming good news. Directionally, it is clearly good, not bad, and not nothing.
- bux93 2y agoDepends. China's obsession with Taiwan is a mix of domestic signaling and posturing internationally and the latter is mostly aimed at the US. China could choose to be more aggressive over Taiwan, as the US should care less. But, since the US care less about Taiwan, perhaps China will turn its saber rattling to other strategic interests of the US, giving the Taiwanese some reprieve.
- resource_waste 2y agoThis isnt Nvidia and this isnt some high end CPU. This is a mobile phone CPU, and its Apple. You are getting insignificant technology.
- 2y ago
- danbruc 2y agoShould other countries put tariffs on devices made with chips that profited from the CHIPS for America Fund?
- running101 2y agoThis news could be bad for Taiwan
- resource_waste 2y agoIts a mobile CPU chip, and its Apple. This isn't going to move any markets, its insignificant. Maybe its politically useful for Apple and the US government for PR purposes, but there is no rush for CPU chips, or Apple hardware.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- amelius 2y agoTaiwan is still in charge of the fab.
- mtrovo 2y agoWow that was fast, is this a regular timeframe to get a new fab working? From the conversations about China catching up on smaller chips I got the impression that it takes loads of iterations around how to calibrate the machines but it seems TSMC nailed it not only on Taiwan but also overseas very fast.
- ErigmolCt 2y agoI think it's a significant milestone for the U.S. semiconductor industry.
- janandonly 2y agoThe new Apple chips are second generation 3nm. This 5nm stuff is old tech. Why are people celebrating?
- talldayo 2y agoBecause all of these commentators are ecstatic to use their Made In America M4 processor in 2026! ...wait, M4 will be 3 generations old by then? W-well, a little reliance on Taiwan never hurt anyone...
- 9cb14c1ec0 2y agoHats off to TSMC. Spinning up a new factory with processes this complex is very difficult, as anyone with manufacturing experience can confirm.
- londons_explore 2y agoMy understanding is it isn't a new factory. Wasn't the equipment moved from another operational factory so they could get up and running quicker?
- TheRealWatson 2y agoAlso, doesn't chip manufacturing require a lot of water? Water is not the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Arizona. I think I'm about to learn a lot with this.
- caseyohara 2y agoYes, ~10 million gallons per day (equivalent to 33,000 households). But the plant's water recycling and re-use is very efficient, so it's mostly a one-time hit up front.
- BurningFrog 2y agoFrom what I read the overriding factor was geological stability. Apparently these factories are very sensitive to vibrations. I guess when you do precision work at nanometer scale these things matter. Arizona isn't water rich, but it manages to keep the 4 million people around Phoenix hydrated, so there is water.
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- londons_explore 2y agoSo this is the N4P node... From way back in 2021. And these are 2 year old chips for a phone that is about to stop being sold... Seems this news might be more political than strategic... The US still relies on Taiwan for every modern chip.
- turnsout 2y agoThis may be a very expensive proof of concept… but it's definitely a concrete step toward their goal
- bogwog 2y agoApple isn't the only company in the world that needs CPUs
- talldayo 2y agoAmerica isn't the only country with a roadmap to manufacture 3nm silicon by 2026. If history has anything to say in the matter, it's likely that Samsung will have the US fabs beat on yield and price for a long time.
- jFriedensreich 2y agoThis happening at the same time as germanys intel project freezes makes the fall seem even harder
- jadayesnaamsi 2y agoKnowing all the efforts that the US government has had to devote in order to push Apple to bring those jobs home, for other countries that do not have as much muscle as in financial and industrial leverage, their industrial future must look quite bleak.
- habitue 2y agoIt's really not about the jobs, it's about national security. The US needs the ability to fabricate chips on its own soil where the threat of China invading Taiwan isnt a concern.
- resters 2y agoAll this because Donald Trump claims (contrary to nearly all economists) that forcing companies to manufacture products on US soil is beneficial in some way that he (Trump) feels confident will make America great again. It is so embarrassing that these outdated ideas are entertained for even a second by HN readers.
- stetrain 2y agoReturning manufacturing to the US is a policy of both major parties right now.
- resters 2y agoonly because of the outsized political importance of a few states that happen to specialize in outdated manufacturing technologies and happen to have enough electoral votes that politicians have an incentive to subsidize them. It's a massive tax on the economy all to provide a tiny bit of welfare to a small number of workers. Better to just pay them a welfare check!
- hajile 2y agoThe world is the most unstable it has been in decades. If/when a war kicks off, you have to have your supply chain local because the oceans will be instantly impassable until we can work out how to counter submarines. This has little to do with welfare and everything to do with national security.
- resters 2y agoUh, having entrenched trade relationships across oceans dramatically reduces the chance of war. Trump launched the tariffs to reduce "dependency" on China because it was the "dependency" that held back the typical rhetoric that leads to war.
- stetrain 2y agoA lot of the new manufacturing isn't going to the states that specialized in manufacturing previously. A lot of the boom in EV and battery production is happening in the US southeast (Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina). The TSMC factory is in Arizona.
- gyoridavid 2y agoCurious to see when the US will force the TSMC to sell because it presents a national security threat.
- pie420 2y agoTaiwan and TSMC are already USGov assets... why would they need to sell...
- nojvek 2y agoHats off to TSMC. They had big culture clash and US has a lot of red tape and high labor costs. They did it! Also kudos to CHIPS act. I'd rather have Boeing and Intel wither off, for them to be replaced by new players who bring highly efficient manufacturing to the table.
- fkilaiwi 2y agogood news like this is so rare. this makes me happy
- reuben_scratton 2y agoI can't believe iPhone chips, almost the supreme luxury good, are considered worthy of Federal subsidies. Surely a better path would have been to slap imported silicon with tarriffs at least equal to their gov't subsidies? (Unpopular opinion: The people that spent the last 30 years giving away US & EU manufacturing to the Far East - no doubt with plenty of "10% for the big guy" type deals behind the scenes - should all be shot.)
- skizm 2y agoI feel like I've read a few articles on Bloomberg and/or NYT (drawing a blank on the exact source) that a very large portion of the workforce was taken directly from Taiwan and the American workers were having a hard time adopting to the Taiwanese way of doing things (long hours, on call all the time, constantly stepping outside your predefined roll, etc.). Is this currently now, or will it in the future, affect the overall success of the factory? (It also might simply be untrue for all I know.)
- yuters 2y agoIf you believe there has been a decline in American work ethics, this actually seems like a good thing. Optimistically they could reach a good middle ground here.
- skizm 2y agoI am not sure framing it as work ethic is right. It is simply the cost of labor. Some people might argue American's are more or less productive the hours they are working, which means just because someone from Taiwan is willing to be oncall 24/7, doesn't mean you'll have to hire exactly 3 American workers at 8 hours each to match productivity. You might need 5 because Americans truly are that lazy, or you might only need 2 because the on-call isn't that demanding since Americans are more productive. Not saying any of these specifics are true, but framing it as work-ethic is not accurately capturing why it is more expensive to run factories in one country vs another.
- nonethewiser 2y agoTo be clear, you are saying work ethic does exist and it is a factor but it's not the only factor, with productivity being another one?
- skizm 2y agoYea agree that it exists, but work ethic is one variable in the cost of labor equation.
- stonethrowaway 2y agoAre they hiring?
- hajile 2y agoTSMC started sampling N5 in 2019 and full production in 2020. This means the US finally has a 5-6 year old TSMC node in the US. Hardly a big win.
- simonsarris 2y agoAny de novo chip plant operation in the US seems like a big win. Machinery can change any day. Operational workforce is significant.
- LetsGetTechnicl 2y agoThe article says that the A16 processors being produced here are using the N4P process, and are referred to as both 5nm and 4nm, confusingly. But they are used in the iPhone 15 and 15 Plus which are still available.
- lo_fye 2y agoSOME of them are. A tiny fraction. At 4-5nm. But Taiwan is already making 3nm chips for Apple. Still better than nothing, I guess.
- seatac76 2y agoThis should go a long way to ensuring our national security does not suffer. We don’t need TSMC level volume production, plenty of non Taiwan entities exist to balance the risk. We do need latest edge tech to be within our borders and TSMC and Samsung will deliver that in 2-3 years.
- logotype 2y agovery happy to see this!
- imwillofficial 2y agoThis is title seems to be quite the overstatement of the facts.
- KETpXDDzR 2y agoOnce the US doesn't depend on Taiwan anymore, will they give up protecting and China will conquer it?
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- tensor 2y agoThat's great to hear. I hope other countries, like Canada and the EU, also do this. I think it's important for all major nations to have this sort of critical capability in house. Covid showed this well, despite being allies, countries tended to get vaccines to their own people first, even breaking agreements with allies. That's likely normal, and a bit of mutual distrust is healthy.
- tibbydudeza 2y agoI wonder if the US plant ASML equipment also have a destruct mechanism like the Taiwanese plants have.
- zwijnsberg 2y agoWonder how apple was able to curb the (assumable) higher cogs of producing this domestically.
- wdb 2y agoI don't see this a positive thing as European. Why not produce the mobile processors in Europe?
- asadm 2y agoIsn't EU basically abusing every tech company for money every month? Why would Apple be inclined in investing anything in EU. Plus, if US has skill shortage, can't imagine how bad it would be in EU.
- topherPedersen 2y agoUSA
- AlbertCory 2y agoA little-known fact is that Donna Dubinsky, the CEO of Palm/Handspring in its glory days, is on the staff of the Dept. of Commerce specifically to help with the CHIPS Act. Or at least was: https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2022/09/biden-harris-administration-announces-chips-america-leadership https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2022/09/biden-h... I don't know what role, if any, she had with TSMC.
- checkyoursudo 2y agoLooking back on some of the comments from this thread^, especially those claiming that TSMC building a factory in the US was infeasible/impossible, was entertaining in light of the current thread. ^https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39273830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39273830
- talldayo 2y agoWith fairness to those commentators, Taiwan will still have a process lead on US fabs until 2030 at least. It's entirely feasible that an American TSMC fab will get beaten on both density and price by Intel and Samsung in the immediate future - these fabs won't be manufacturing flagship nodes.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- webninja 2y agoExcellent to see more manufacturers come to the land of the free and home of the brave.