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Tesla to recall vehicles that may disobey stop signs

• willmadden 5y ago
  This is a feature not a bug. Tesla should offer an autopilot setting called "outlaw mode".
• PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  It’s surprising that Tesla shipped the “rolling stop” behavior as the default despite it being illegal in most places. This one seems so obviously avoidable that I’m baffled as to why they let it happen.
  • kemitche 5y ago
    Illegal isn't binary - just look at speed limits. Everyone speeds at least a little, and FSD/AP had to be allowed to speed to be safe
    • gjsman-1000 5y ago
      Except that actually is legal. Speeding to pass someone is legal in most states, as is speeding in certain situations. Whereas, a rolling stop, that's not legal (as far as I know) anywhere. EDIT: I am incorrect with the above statement. I apparently live in one of 4 states where you can exceed the speed limit by up to 10mph while passing.
      • cmurf 5y ago
        It is not legal to speed to pass in most states. I've only found Wyoming, Idaho, Minnesota and Washington have such a law on the books, up to 10mph over the posted speed limit. For sure in Colorado it's not legal to exceed the speed limit to pass. But it is illegal to drive below the speed limit while in the passing lane on a highway with a speed limit 65 mph or higher. There's exceptions for safety and congestion, but otherwise the left lane is considered a passing lane. If you're not passing, you're not supposed to be in that lane.
      • hutzlibu 5y ago
        It is? That is a surprise. In germany and most countries I drove, it was definitely illegal. Of course, it is common and it makes sense, but the law is that the speed limit is absolute.
      • zamadatix 5y ago
        Only a couple of states have laws allow speeding to pass and the vast majority of states have an absolute speed limit rule disallowing speeding in any situation. A handful of states won't give you points due to a speeding ticket <6 mph though. Of course these are the laws, not the practice, which is what I think GP was trying to say. http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html
        • mrtranscendence 5y ago
          For what it's worth, in Ohio I've never been stopped by a cop for going 5 miles above the speed limit on or off the interstate, despite doing so in the presence of cops many times. I got my only ticket for going 15 miles over, though.
          • zamadatix 5y ago
            I've gotten a ticket on US 24 (going Fort Wayne to Toledo) for doing 69 in a 65. I've went through there probably nearing a hundred times by then (both family and work out that way) but only been pulled over for it that once. Ever since One of two tickets I've ever gotten, the other was also in Ohio but that one was much more obvious - I missed the speed change on a normal road when I was younger and was doing 45 in a 35. Cop knocked that one down quite a bit though, can't remember what actually got put on the ticket. Of all of the places I've been Chicago was probably the worst at speeding, especially in the dead of night when the roads are "too" open. Recently they got a bit stricter with the speed cameras though https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicagos-speed-cameras-ticket-8x-faster-after-limit-drops-to-6-mph/ https://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicagos-speed-cameras-ticket...
      • seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        I could have sworn rolling stops were legal in Arizona...maybe that was a couple of decades ago?
    • ctdonath 5y ago
      Illegal is binary. Enforcement is what's squishy, because liability normally doesn't address deep pockets.
      • nomel 5y ago
        I think one could claim that illegal and enforcement or so closely tied together that they can't be separated in a meaningful way.
        • ctdonath 5y ago
          That's...preposterous. There are a great many illegal acts that are so rarely enforced that the act is normalized, with enforcement surprising the culprits - speeding and rolling stops being the primary examples. Such are normalized because individual enforcement is practically impossible; it's when the behavior gets codified by a business as/in a product that gov't has a chance to crack down on it.
    • eldaisfish 5y ago
      >Illegal isn't binary I would strongly discourage you from trying that line of argument with the cops when you're pulled over for speeding. I'm certain that a court of law with decent standards does not interpret speeding "at least a little" as anything except a binary.
      • caconym_ 5y ago
        The "argument" is tried against cops when you pass them while driving faster than the speed limit. In the vast majority of cases, if you're going less than 10 over, they will ignore you. A thing is not legal just because law enforcement lets you get away with it, but I don't think this is a good example. It's silly to have this conversation without at least acknowledging the way driver behavior expands into "grey areas" and gaps in enforcement, and I don't think it's trivially obvious that "self driving" cars should rigidly follow the letter of the law even if that means they'll be the only cars on the road doing so.
    • Xylakant 5y ago
      Why does the autopilot need to speed to be safe? When does “speeding to be safe” become “unsafe speeding”? 10 miles faster than the the one that you’re trying to overtake? What if they’re speeding by 10 already? Why is the speed limit not 10 higher than it is, if that’s the actual safe speed? How can Tesla unilaterally decide that exceeding the speed is perfectly good and safe?
      • adoxyz 5y ago
        Nobody is saying autopilot "needs" to speed to be safe at all times. But it needs the ability to be able to go faster than the posted speed limit. I.e if the speed limit is 45mph, going 47mph shouldn't be a problem that the car freaks out over. For a while, on city streets if you were using Autopilot you'd be able to go up to 5mph over the posted limit without issue. I think in the FSD Beta, you can go more.
        • Xylakant 5y ago
          Can you describe the ruleset that would apply when it’s ok to speed? So that’s applicable to the software of thousands of cars?
          • deleted 5y ago
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          • adoxyz 5y ago
            The car already has a ruleset for when to not obey speed limits. If you're on the highway and your lane is going 65mph but the other lanes are moving very slowly, the car will slow down accordingly. Similarly, this could be implemented for the inverse to an extent. And again, I don't think the car should speed by default, but a car going 2-3mph over the posted limit should be acceptable rather than an error state because the world is not black and white.
      • Retric 5y ago
        Because people passing you is very slightly more dangerous than people following you. It’s not a big deal most of the time, but when everyone passes you across thousands of hours it adds up to a significant risk.
    • throwaway894345 5y ago
      With respect to speed limits (and not stop signs, so this is explicitly a bit of a digression), it's also worth noting that sometimes you have to choose between "safe" and "legal" since most municipalities set speed limits which are not safe (the safest speed being the speed at which traffic naturally flows). So should a self-driving car (or human, for that matter) drive safely or legally?
    • onion2k 5y ago
      Illegal isn't binary - just look at speed limits. Everyone speeds at least a little, and FSD/AP had to be allowed to speed to be safe. Illegal is binary for most driving laws (especially 'do what this sign says' rules), but some things fall into an ambiguous category of illegal-but-rarely-enforced. The problem is that computers don't do well with ambiguous rules. I strongly suspect that when most cars are using FSD the rule of being allow to drive a little over the speed limit will be removed, and cars will have to stick to the limits. Hopefully the limits will be raised.
  • fnord77 5y ago
    I've heard this called the "california roll" because it is so pervasive here. I guess someone at Tesla confused "done by everyone" with "legal"
  • ajross 5y ago
    It's not the default, you have to turn it on in a menu. It's arguably not even "shipped", as it's part of the must-qualify-in FSD beta program. And most beta users probably didn't know it existed. It also engages only when approaching an empty intersection. Any obstacles/pedestrians or moving vehicles cause a full stop. To be perfectly honest: I turned it on when I saw it, but haven't seen it actually do it yet. And at this point I guess I never will. I mean, speeding is equally illegal and inarguably more dangerous. Yet no one is upset that the car lets you speed.
    • alistairSH 5y ago
      Isn't FSD just a $10k option today? IE, it might be "beta" quality, but it's available to anybody with deep enough pockets.
      • ajross 5y ago
        "FSD beta" refers to the specific autonomy-in-all-circumstances product in testing. You have to request it, then prove you can win a game vs. the car's Safety Score feature for a few weeks or months, then wait to be upgraded. It's available to the public, but only in limited release. "Full Self Driving" is the name of the vehicle option that you can purchase or license, which includes a bunch of different features (light/sign recognition, autonomous navigation on highways, lane changes, stuff like that).
        • FireBeyond 5y ago
          > You have to request it, then prove you can win a game vs. the car's Safety Score feature for a few weeks or months, then wait to be upgraded. It's available to the public, but only in limited release. Or have enough social media clout (in the appropriately Tesla-positive direction).
          • ajross 5y ago
            Are you referencing anything in particular? It's true that the first few hundred non-Tesla-employee installs were to a bunch of known fans and inflencer types. But since September it's been a completely public thing with objective rules. They have 60k of these cars on the roads now per the linked article, it's absolutely not just a marketing thing.
  • caconym_ 5y ago
    > The feature, which appeared to violate state laws that require vehicles to come to a complete stop and required drivers to opt-in for what it dubbed "Assertive" mode, drew attention on social media and prompted NHTSA to raise questions with Tesla. Emphasis mine; this apparently wasn't the default behavior. Though, it may not have been clear to users opting-in exactly what "assertive mode" changes about the system's behavior.
    • kgwgk 5y ago
      It seems that it's also part of the default behaviour: https://twitter.com/digitalhen/status/1480230704520773632 https://twitter.com/digitalhen/status/1480230704520773632 It happens in all three modes Chill, Average and Assertive to different degree.
  • soheil 5y ago
    You make it sound like as of something just by being legal adheres to the platonic form of truth. There are so many dumb laws. For example in a certain state I can't remember it's illegal to have an ice cream in your back pocket on Sundays. There are many, many idiotic laws that one would do well to at least question, instead of shaming others or being "baffled" why others don't put up with them.
  • mannykannot 5y ago
    Tesla would vastly prefer a situation where the NHTSA allows it to do anything it wants, so it does just that, hoping to normalize this deviance from how the law intends highway safety to be regulated. By this action, NHTSA is trying out a more assertive mode itself.
  • mrtranscendence 5y ago
    I agree with you, for what it's worth. I'm not sure why this is at all controversial. Even if you argue that it's sometimes morally permissible to do a rolling stop, it's still baffling that Tesla would explicitly program its AI to perform illegal acts. Why open themselves up to criticism and scrutiny? Should they run red lights at empty intersections, too? Ignore speed limits in quiet residential areas? Maybe tailgate other drivers going under the speed limit?
• kemitche 5y ago
  Not quite a "recall" in the normal sense. They're disabling the "rolling stop at stop sign" feature of FSD for those in the beta.
  • dr-detroit 5y ago
  • javert 5y ago
    It isn't a "recall" in common English. So, the title and story are wrong. Very disappointing on the part of Reuters. This is not quality journalism. Since they wrote it the way they did, I would guess there is some regulatory document that causes this to be classified a a "recall" for legal purposes. But it's incorrect to substitute legal language for common English language when there is a conflict between the two, except in legal contexts. That rule goes for technical language in general. Is this practice more common in British English? I feel that it seems to appear more often in writing by British people, but that's anecdotal and could be incorrect.
    • arichard123 5y ago
      As a brit, I would say no. But for your last line your thoughts matched mine.
      • javert 5y ago
        Sorry to hear that. This practice degrades the signal to noise ratio of the language and in my view is absolutely indefensible. It's possible for languages to evolve in ways that make them objectively better or worse; we should strongly resist the latter. If we are sloppy and lazy, we make the language sloppy.
    • thomaszander 5y ago
      Reuters has been biased in their news telling for some time now. Not entirely unlike the rest of the mainstream media, I would suppose.
    • 5y ago
• PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  For some context: California allows “rolling stops” in which the driver is not required to come completely to 0mph (fully stopped) at a stop sign. Most US states require a complete stop at stop signs. Strangely, Tesla exported this rolling stop behavior everywhere, despite it being illegal in many (maybe most) states. It’s strange that this was allowed to get so far. This violation should have been obvious.
  • mig39 5y ago
    California stops are weird. If you're ok with a car just slowing down and yielding to traffic if necessary, why not use a "Yield" sign instead of a "Stop" sign? We have "yield" signs for entry onto highways and roundabouts, for example, where the goal is to keep traffic moving.
    • kjkjadksj 5y ago
      Because based on my experience most people don’t yield at yield signs in ca, and prefer to try and outgun whoever is not letting them in than back off. Sounds like a good way to me to increase the number of accidents at 4 way stops.
      • mig39 5y ago
        Yeah, 4-way stops definitely need a stop sign. Or better yet, turn 4-way stops into roundabouts.
    • metabagel 5y ago
      California isn’t OK with it. Police routinely ticket vehicles which perform a rolling stop. The police aren’t everywhere, so you could get away with it for a while, but eventually you’ll probably do it in front of a police car and be cited.
  • lakis 5y ago
    California rolling stops are illegal.
  • 5y ago
• gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Did anyone in Tesla's Legal Department review the rolling stop feature? This should have screamed illegal. Heck, I'm no legal expert but it screams illegal to me.
  • duxup 5y ago
    I gotta think there are some emails with some engineer "guies wut?" out there. I always wonder how this plays out on a granular level. Some folks have to be thinking / asking if this is a good idea or not.
  • loceng 5y ago
    This should initiate a conversation into following the spirit of laws vs. authoritarian rigidity of law without nuance. In high school there was only a handful of things I learned that were actually useful, outside of social experiences. One of them was a teacher who taught business and law classes. In a business class he shared with us, first saying he could probably get fired for telling us this, but that if we had good ideas, new we had a good idea for a business, then instead of going to university and getting $40,000+ into debt over 4 years - get a job and/or apprenticeship and work on your idea. At the end of that 4 years he suggested you'd be in a much better position than those who went into higher education; of course it depends on what someone's goals are. In law class he gave an example: in some states in the US there are very long stretches of road where you won't see anyone for awhile, and sometimes there are traffic lights on a straight road - with no intersection. He put forward to the question of what do you do if that traffic light is red when you come up to it? There's zero vehicles near you in either direction, there's no intersection to worry about cross-traffic, and so do you stop and wait for the light to go green, or do you go again even though it's red? I think every reasonable person would answer that they would go. E.g. A rolling stop in some circumstances isn't dangerous for anyone; and I also see police doing it all the time. Of course AI deciding when to do it when it may not yet be accounting for the whole or an adequate enough of environment does add questions, and because it's not critical to self-driving, I believe it's a good idea to not allow it until that conversation can be thoroughly hashed out, as well as the technology much more thoroughly tested and evolved. Edit: Lazy people downvote - find something better to do with your time, or some other form of entertainment.
• rsync 5y ago
  Cars neither obey nor disobey stop signs if they have an human operator. Please drive your car. You owe this to everyone else on the road.
  • cmusfan 5y ago
    If the company accepts the liability, I can't be charged for a driving crime while the car is out of my control, and it is statistical safer to let the car drive itself I am on board, but the courts haven't cleared the liability problem, and there are safety concerns with large white trucks being detected, so driving your own car seems like the right choice for 2022.
    • deegles 5y ago
      At the moment, Tesla's liability position is "heads I win, tails you lose," since you're supposed to be hands-on-wheel and alert at all times while using FSD. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    • rsync 5y ago
      " ... so driving your own car seems like the right choice for 2022 ..." It is my belief that this will always be true. From yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs "... as we look at this accident history what we find is that in 68% of these accidents, automation dependency plays a significant part ..." "... automation dependent pilots allowed their airplanes to get much closer to the edge of the envelope than they should have ..."
• ctdonath 5y ago
  This is one of the really hard issues of automation: humans normalize disobedience to the point that strict obedience ranges from irritating to dangerous; the gap is not an engineering problem.
  • togs 5y ago
    This seems one major downside of cars: lots of decision makers vs mass transportation with significantly less.
• tonyhb 5y ago
  I wish all stop signs would be replaced with roundabouts, or mini roundabouts like those in the UK. Stop signs are wildly time inefficient, less gas efficient, and more dangerous. Not necessarily best practice, but I'm all for rolling stops in the meantime.
  • gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Then ask our legislatures to change the law. Don't let private companies make cars that disobey the laws developed by elected officials and those they appoint.
  • DavidPeiffer 5y ago
    In Iceland they have many roundabouts all over, and at most low residential intersections there's simply a yield for one of the intersecting roads. Having a yield instead of having to come to a stop is so refreshing. You are also required to have your lights on when you are driving. It notably increases visibility even during the day. I came back to the US really wishing those policies would go into effect nationwide.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • throwawayboise 5y ago
      Yes I would love to see the elimination of the four-way stop intersection. One road should be designated as the "arterial" road and should not stop. The crossing road should yield. There are very few cases where a four-way stop is justified.
  • duxup 5y ago
    They're almost the default now in my area of the US if at all plausible. Having said that a lot of roads in my area are already built around 4 way stops and it's not easy to undo that, but new construction in my area of suburbia US has adopted the roundabout.
  • ngngngng 5y ago
• tohnjitor 5y ago
  become ungovernable
• krajzeg 5y ago
  In a few months: Tesla baffled as regulators crack down on their "I'm in a rush" feature, which makes Tesla cars with FSD ignore any and all speed limits as long as the car deems that's safe to do and won't bother anybody.
  • gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Nah, they wouldn't call it "I'm in a rush." They'd call it "Cannonball Run Challenge Mode." ;)
    • LastMuel 5y ago
      Apparently, it's "Assertive Mode"
  • duxup 5y ago
    I look forward to: <button>DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?</button> Personally I'd like a Foghat option: <button>Slow ride, take it easy.</button>
    • natch 5y ago
      Chill mode…
    • tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      I hope robotaxis will have a setting for this. It can be a real pleasure to enjoy a buttery-smooth ride, and robots will excel at it. And of course manufacturers will optimize for it since it demonstrates confidence and safety. OTOH, you know what can also be fun? Having a Tesla kick your butt with almost 1 G. There should be a reasonably-smooth default setting, a "show me your skills" super-smooth setting, a "sporty" setting, and "madman". The latter would probably cost extra due to the extra wear and tear, and I'm sure I'd pay for it, at least once, for the experience.
  • ajross 5y ago
    I'm not sure I understand the joke here. That's the way it works. The cars already allow you to speed (up to a limit, obviously). Just roll the right scroll wheel. And you can control its default choices via a menu (e.g. "limit + 5mph", etc...). Being able to match traffic speeds is a good and useful feature. But yes, it's technically "illegal", just like a rolling stop. Which prods the question of why one is subject to regulatory oversight and the other is not.
• mrfusion 5y ago
  Why is it a recall instead of a software update?
  • gcanyon 5y ago
    It is a software update.
  • jaywalk 5y ago
    It is a software update.
  • ajross 5y ago
    "Recall" is the only term available to express a software update via the NHTSA's public notification process. It's just the word we have. And yes, it implies things that are salaciously untrue, which is one of the reason it finds its way into headlines like this.
    • colonelxc 5y ago
      Most recalls are just to fix things. It might be replacing brake pads, or a bumper, or in this case some software.
  • jjulius 5y ago
    According to the NHTSA[1]: >A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle. So basically, regardless of whether the fix is a software or hardware update, any issue a car has that "creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards" falls underneath the "recall" banner. I can see the benefit here; a recall generally gets a certain level of publicity that a "software update" might otherwise not. It might not be a bad idea for people crossing at stop signs to think, "Hmm, Tesla approaching, let's exercise just a bit more caution", until this is resolved. [1]https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/Recalls-FAQ.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/Recalls-FAQ...
• gcanyon 5y ago
  "recall" is a funny word to use for "software update"
  • LightG 5y ago
    Sure, it's misleading - but it is technically the same thing. The car still needed to be fixed. The car was faulty.
• deleted 5y ago
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• kirillzubovsky 5y ago
  Personally I am curious how this is done in the AI. Do they simply flip a switch that says “if you see stop sign make a full stop,” or do they now have to update and retrain the neural net to acquire this behavior. Does anyone know?
  • brianwawok 5y ago
    It was a toggle so one assume the code has a branch in it. If flag flipped and no people and no cars, min speed is 5, else 0. I liked this feature, damnit.
  • czr 5y ago
    they flipped a switch (this one, under "clear to go" subheading https://youtu.be/ToDMceo0aDs?t=20 https://youtu.be/ToDMceo0aDs?t=20). tesla planning still mostly is done by C/C++ code.
  • wcoenen 5y ago
    There is a mix of a "neural net planner" and a "explicit planning and control" in traditional code[1]. The explicit planner has the last word, and uses input from both the "vector space" and the neural net planner. Karpathy has commented about the neural nets gradually replacing the traditional code. See his presentation[2] around 18:45. [1] https://saneryee-studio.medium.com/deep-understanding-tesla-fsd-part-3-planning-control-9a25cc6d04f0 https://saneryee-studio.medium.com/deep-understanding-tesla-... [2] https://youtu.be/hx7BXih7zx8 https://youtu.be/hx7BXih7zx8
    • kirillzubovsky 5y ago
      #1 is a very good set of articles. thanks you!
• drewg123 5y ago
  The feature, which appeared to violate state laws that require vehicles to come to a complete stop and required drivers to opt-in for what it dubbed "Assertive" I have the FSD beta on my Model X, and opted in to assertive not knowing that it enabled rolling stops. I enabled "assertive" in hopes of making the car less timid about unprotected turns.
  • drewg123 5y ago
    BTW, the FSD beta is terrible. Its what I imagine a senior citizen taking their first drive after getting a learners permit would be like. The worst part is horribly timid behavior pulling into traffic or making unprotected left turns. It also is quite annoying on rural 2 lane roads, with frequent enough phantom braking to make passengers queasy and hence make me turn off FSD. It has no knowledge of potholes, so I frequently have to take over before it costs me a wheel and a tire by hitting a monster pothole. Its frustrating that I paid $3000 for this 4+ years ago, and waited 4 years for the feature, and was made to drive overly gently (no hard cornering or braking) in order to get a good "safety score" for quite a while before I could even try it. The $3000 would have been much better off had I invested it in Tesla stock. If this is where they are after 4 years, I don't hold out much hope.
    • reasonabl_human 5y ago
      What version of FSD beta are you on? After 10.6 most of my complaints were addressed and I am very happy using it to get to work every day, although I live in a suburban / semi-urban area and have never used it on rural roads. I have an original model 3. Pretty much any left-handed turn is protected with a stoplight around me, although it negotiates unprotected ones well for the ones I’ve faced under 35mph We have solid infrastructure so can’t speak to the potholes complaint. A few months back FSD beta started acknowledging speed bumps and taking them slowly so I’d imagine potholes are in the works.
      • drewg123 5y ago
        V10.9 I tweeted at Elon about the potholes.. let's hope something improves.
• echopurity 5y ago
• mortehu 5y ago
  When I moved to San Francisco from Europe I had to take a drive test to get a US license. In every single intersection I did a rolling stop, and got like 15 minor "errors" on my score sheet. However, since I had no other errors I got the license. Perhaps the FSD beta would also pass this test.
• dawnerd 5y ago
  The problem with the assertive setting is it didn't really work. The car would still do a rolling stop even in chill. I think in those cases it might have been creeping for visibility but often the creep is a full blown drive into the intersection. They really need to add some explicit controls over this like navigate on autopilot has. I've had to disengage so many times due to it making really dumb moves that could be fixed with just asking me first. I know thats against their end goal but their models just are not there yet.
• rvz 5y ago
  So it was software feature in FSD that when encountering a stop sign, it did not stop as it was unable to read those signs? That's much worse than the time the FSD system was confusing the moon with a traffic light and was slowing down in the highway. No wonder it is eligible for the nickname of 'Fools Self Driving'.
• soheil 5y ago
  Laws can be dumb, if there are no other cars and you roll through a stop sign why is that unsafe? This is also called California stop. People in California have places to be and it's a big place so the effects compound.
  • jeremyjh 5y ago
    I don't think there are any federal laws about traffic signs. California's laws require you to come to a complete stop at stop signs. Programming a computer to intentionally break the law "because I have places to go" seems like poor judgement to me.
  • VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
    is this a federal law
  • midnightclubbed 5y ago
    As soon as you make the rolling stop legal people will push the limits of that law and drive straight through if they think the way is clear. The numbers of drivers driving through reds (at least here in coastal San Diego) has noticeably increased over the past two years, previously people would hit the gas if the lights turned yellow, now they are hitting the gas if they see yellow (and crossing through the intersection on red). Accident statistics seem to back that up https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/red-light-deaths-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/red-light-deaths-trnd/inde... Making traffic rules less strict seems like a recipe for more accidents and deaths.
    • soheil 5y ago
      Traffic lights are a completely separate issue. The cars are traveling much faster. At a stop sign you will have much more time to react since you're going 5-7mph max.
  • adoxyz 5y ago
    People in California have places... as opposed to the rest of the world where nobody has any place to be...
• pmcollins 5y ago
  > Tesla will perform an over-the-air software update that disables the "rolling stop" functionality the “recall” is an OTA software update
  • bsagdiyev 5y ago
    Are they recalling the software version for an update to fix a safety issue? If so, then it is a recall. You can't play semantics with words like that for these issues. Please see this: https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/Recalls-FAQ.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/Recalls-FAQ... >A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle.
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• lelag 5y ago
  That's an interesting challenge for autonomous vehicles though... On one hand, the idea of programming your self-driving system to violate the law seems baffling. On the other hand, there are unwritten local rules everywhere. I suspect that even though rolling stop are illegal in California, the traffic density requires drivers to adopt a more aggressive stance if they want to move effectively and rolling stop helps that, especially when multiple cars are stopped in line waiting at a stop sign. If most people adopted that unsafe unlawful behaviour but which help reduce congestion, what are you suppose to do as a car maker if respecting the law will make other users road-rage against your client using your self-driving system?
  • SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    I guess we're headed towards yet another slice of future dystopia - where once we saw the opportunity for clean and efficient automated driving by the time it's here it'll have been so heavily influenced by current bad driving habits that they'll have to keep the bad traditions up, if not to be defensive against people but instead to be defensive around other older AI drivers that are still assuming bad habit.
    • a9h74j 5y ago
      Memetic driving? Actually with humans in the mix, being "predictable" can be positive for safety.
  • jeromegv 5y ago
    I don't think we should program-in unsafe driving behaviours to accommodate road-ragers. As those self-driving features get more main-stream, this will just become more normal. And if road-ragers are still around, they should get fined.
• thepasswordis 5y ago
  "recall" is a bit of a strong word here. They'll push an update that removes a feature (rolling stops).
• aimor 5y ago
  Does it at least check for cops before rolling through the stop sign? Kinda cheeky, but I bet a lot of people would love automated driving features that change behavior around police.
  • LightG 5y ago
    LOL! I enjoyed that.
• anonymousiam 5y ago
  This sort of conflict highlights the difference between the traffic laws (which are often rooted in revenue generation instead of safety) and the way people really drive. Speed limits have the same issue. Some governments (such as Germany) have roads with no speed limit. Why don't we have those everywhere? In the end, it comes down to personal responsibility. Apparently the people in Germany drive more responsibly than everywhere else?
• onphonenow 5y ago
  Rolling stops are how a fair number of folks drive, especially when there is no traffic on a cross street. I was in a small down growing up, and you'd slow to maybe 1-3 MPH, then turn. I know everyone on HN get's outraged by these decisions with FSD (and regulators do too). One thing I think this exposes is actually human driving. This is in fact common - the system is reflecting things back to us. I was on road up higher and the number of people on their phones is mind boggling. THey will literally sit at a green because they are so checked out, they will be texting while merging. It's madness.
  • grepfru_it 5y ago
    today i approached a 4 way stop. the car to the left of me arrived later, as I was coming to a complete stop. well the driver to the left used a rolling stop and continued through the stop line. then he had the audacity to beep at me as he cut me off.
    • katbyte 5y ago
      The issue there is not so much the rolling stop but not respect right of way. Personally I think almost all stop signs should be replaced with roundabouts as it better represents how people want to drive and allows for rolling stops but that’s just me
      • Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
        A stop sign at the end of a neighborhood road at the intersection of a main thorough street makes sense. But four-way stop signs absolutely should not be a thing. Anywhere a 4-way stop exists should certainly be a roundabout. The only problem is that roundabouts in the USA are exceedingly rare in most of the country. There would need to be a massive education campaign for them to work for most people. There are an alarming number of Americans that think that the people already on the roundabout have to yield for the people coming on.
        • ak217 5y ago
• sidibe 5y ago
  It seems like the mission statement at Tesla is "let's see what we can get away with." I've never seen a company with so much to lose as fearless of regulators or customers.
• sschueller 5y ago
  Does the Tesla know not to turn on red in Europe or is FSD not yet available? Also for example in Switzerland a driver is required to stop at a cross walk if a person is standing to cross or about to cross. This is not the case in Italy.
• jmpman 5y ago
  My Tesla will allow me to engage autopilot in a school zone, obeying the adjustment I’d set on speed limit - while using, not the correct school zone speed limit, but the non-school time speed limit. It would allow me to go 30 mph over the school zone speed. How can Tesla claim self driving if the car can’t read a sign that says - speed limit 25 mph during school hours, and properly adjust? Humans just look around to determine if school is likely in session by the number of cars in the parking lot during normal school hours, or they know the school calendar. How does a self driving car make that determination? Query the school district website for the school, identifying their bell schedule and tacking on a buffer ahead and behind? Assume a school schedule that’s M-F? What if it’s a religious school that operates Sun-Thursday? Now the car has to determine which religious sects obey which calendar? Is it different in each country? Just another example of a massive hurdle self driving cars have…… And another recall that should be issued.
  • junon 5y ago
    I'm not a fan of Tesla personally but it is worth mentioning that "autopilot" and "self driving" are not the same. Autopilot is, and has always been, cruise control on steroids. Full self driving hasn't reached the consumer market. To expect your Tesla to be that is lying to yourself.
    • throwawayboise 5y ago
      I think Elon was the one doing the lying.
    • zardo 5y ago
      Doesn't Tesla have beta software the driver can turn on with the name "Full Self Driving"? And isn't it intended to be used, "beta tested", on public roads?
      • 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
        Apparently they came out and said that "Full Self Driving™" isn't supposed to be understood as full self driving.
• mauvehaus 5y ago
  Virtually all humans roll stop signs from time to time. It's safe when done in appropriate circumstances, yet it's illegal. The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior, and we've been ignoring the contradiction for, what, decades? The most interesting possible outcome of widespread self-driving vehicles is reconciling the legal fictions on the books with reality as code is unambiguously breaking the laws that aren't based in any semblance of reality.
  • HWR_14 5y ago
    I mean, most speed limits are also ignored safely and commonly.
    • mauvehaus 5y ago
      And there are circumstances where it's both reasonable and expected to pass a vehicle over a double yellow line (a slow-moving agricultural vehicle or a horse and buggy, for instance). And there are definitely cases when it's preferable to closely cut a yellow light than risk a collision if you're being tailgated and don't have much faith in the person behind you stopping if you do. At best, the law codifies best practices for the typical case. At worst it's a tool used to selectively target some people over others. See, for example, the concept of "driving while Black".
  • travisporter 5y ago
    > safe when done in appropriate circumstances That's a truism about anything, no?
    • stavros 5y ago
      Read as "usually safe".
  • ceejayoz 5y ago
    > The law is at complete odds with normal human behavior, and we've been ignoring the contradiction for, what, decades? No, we've been using the contradictions as pretexts for otherwise illegal traffic stops.
• CamelCaseName 5y ago
  It would be fantastic if one day, with a high degree of certainty, self driving cars were legally allowed to run stop signs if they deemed it safe. There must be some fascinating cost/benefit analysis here looking at the waste that comes from breaking and starting again vs. a small chance of causing an accident. Think about all the cool ways you could alter urban design or traffic law with self driving vehicle data.
• ccorda 5y ago
  The actual implementation is a little more nuanced than always roll or never roll, with seven conditions required to avoid coming to a complete stop: 1. The functionality must be enabled within the FSD Beta Profile settings; and 2. The vehicle must be approaching an all-way stop intersection; and 3. The vehicle must be traveling below 5.6mph; and 4. No relevant moving cars are detected near the intersection; and 5. No relevant pedestrians or bicyclists are detected near the intersection; and 6. There is sufficient visibility for the vehicle while approaching the intersection; and 7. All roads entering the intersection have a speed limit of 30 mph or less. If all the above conditions are met, only then will the vehicle travel through the all-way-stop intersection at a speed from 0.1 mph up to 5.6 mph without first coming to a complete stop. If any of the above conditions are not met, the functionality will not activate and the vehicle will come to a complete stop https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2022/RCLRPT-22V037-4462.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2022/RCLRPT-22V037-4462.PDF
  • margalabargala 5y ago
    If a cop watches me roll through an otherwise empty stop sign intersection at 5.6mph, they would absolutely give me a ticket.
    • colinmhayes 5y ago
      This just depends on location I guess. Everyone here rolls through at 10-15, especially cops.
      • rootusrootus 5y ago
        That's no longer a stop sign.
    • bpodgursky 5y ago
      This is not true for cops anywhere I have lived, and I'm sorry you live somewhere with such pointlessly strict policing. 5.6mph is de facto stopped.
• InTheArena 5y ago
  I was rear-ended in Colorado when I didn't do a rolling stop. Had a road-rage incident when the other driving was livid that I would stop under thoose circumstances. My dad (when gowing up) was pulled over for a cop for doing a california stop in Colorado. The police officer let us off, because we had california plates. When I got my Tesla, it was immediately evident that _no one_ travels the speed limit. They travel 5-10mph over it on anything other then a local road. or they drive way under it. This is the problem with our mental model - FSD/Autopilot has to co-exist with human drivers - and human drivers don't follow the law. FSD/Autopilot has to exist in a world where roads do not follow standards, lines are not marked, deer jump in front of cars, people do California stops (it's called that for a reason), cars have accidents. Computers, today, change none of that.
  • LastMuel 5y ago
    > My dad (when gowing up) was pulled over for a cop for doing a california stop in Colorado. The police officer let us off, because we had california plates. I'm confused. A "California Stop" isn't even legal in California.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • tshaddox 5y ago
      Also I'm pretty sure lots of places say "{somePlace} Stop" where somePlace is some nearby place known for supposedly having bad drivers.
      • FeteCommuniste 5y ago
        We say "California stop" or "California roll" even way out here in Texas.
      • LastMuel 5y ago
        I don't disagree. It was the comment about the California plate - almost like it was supposed to validate the practice - that I don't understand. I commented as I have a concern that an uneducated reader may walk away with the idea that it's legal in that state. It most certainly is not. Apparently, though, Idaho does have some provision for bicyclists and rolling through stop signs. So, there you go - an "Idaho Stop" is a thing for any potential bicyclists in Idaho.
• caaqil 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30163663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30163663
• CalRobert 5y ago
  Rolling stops are a great way to do things like kill 5 year old Alison Hart, who was in a crosswalk when someone killed her with a car. https://twitter.com/jlrhart/status/1486407516338761734/photo/1 https://twitter.com/jlrhart/status/1486407516338761734/photo...
  • legostormtroopr 5y ago
    That incident is a tragedy - but seems like it is completely unrelated to this matter. It was a speeding driver in a van, who sped through a stop sign & crossing walk and killed a child.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  • throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >Rolling stops are a great way to do things like kill 5 year old Alison Hart, who was in a crosswalk when someone killed her with a car. >https://twitter.com/jlrhart/status/1486407516338761734/photo https://twitter.com/jlrhart/status/1486407516338761734/photo... Sure, linking to a tweet obfuscates the facts a little bit but surely someone was bound to Google the name eventually... https://wtop.com/dc/2021/09/girl-struck-and-killed-in-northeast-dc-crosswalk-identified/ https://wtop.com/dc/2021/09/girl-struck-and-killed-in-northe... "Police said the van came to a complete stop and proceeded through a stop sign when Hart was unable to stop her bicycle and entered the intersection into the path of the moving vehicle.” The accident you cite has pretty much nothing to do with the debate here since the stop wasn't actually rolled.
• aqaq2 5y ago
• CalRobert 5y ago
  Note that rolling stops can seem safe but in some cases there are surprising circumstances where intersections can leave you blind to other road users. https://www.wired.com/story/the-physics-of-the-69-degree-intersection-that-kills-cyclists/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-physics-of-the-69-degree-int... for instance discusses an intersection where the angle caused a person-size blind spot behind a car's pillar.
  • zinekeller 5y ago
    The Wired reporting is based on Bez's article on Singletrack (as stated): https://singletrackworld.com/2018/01/collision-course-why-this-type-of-road-junction-will-keep-killing-cyclists/ https://singletrackworld.com/2018/01/collision-course-why-th... Tom Scott made a good complementary video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYeeTvitvFU It's already fixed just last month: https://www.hants.gov.uk/News/25012022Ipleycrossroadsopening https://www.hants.gov.uk/News/25012022Ipleycrossroadsopening and https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/news/new-forest-accident-blackspot-crossroads-reopen-after-improv-9236888/ https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/news/new-forest-acciden...
    • darknavi 5y ago
      Interesting video. I didn't know STOP signs were so rare in the UK!
  • natch 5y ago
    Good thing cameras mounted under the windshield glass are not obstructed by pillars. Direct sun glare can be an issue though. I have yet to see how Tesla plans to solve this, although having five different forward facing cameras surely helps.
• ballenf 5y ago
  Self-driving cars need to bend the rules enough to be attractive to a critical mass of purchasers. Then regulations will require strict adherence to laws. Then owners of these cars will be numerous enough to push for regulatory reform. If all self-driving or driving assisted cars were limited to exactly the speed limit and following the letter of laws that no human follows, they will never achieve mass adoption. FWIW, cruise control has always let you set any reasonable speed. Doesn't quite seem right to hold a car to a different standard just because it's advanced enough to sometimes know the actual speed limit.
• mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Will be hilarious if FSD gets halted by 80% of humans committing rolling stops and never allowing FSD vehicles to cross the street (which are programmed to follow the letter of the law).
• natch 5y ago
  “Recall” lol. They will tweak a behavior in a software update.
  • LightG 5y ago
    It's still a "fix".
    • natch 5y ago
      Teslas have fixes all the time, unlike other cars which just stay broken. Try putting any car on cruise control on a street with stop signs and see what happens. It will be way worse than what any Tesla does. “But those cars don’t claim self driving.” Neither does Tesla. The capability is still under development.
      • LightG 5y ago
        Sure, but you're talking to someone who doesn't believe in "true" FSD inside the next 10 years. I suspect Tesla will be forced to stick with an ever improving FSD-lite that still needs to be monitored. Which (in my own use case) is actually less than pointless ... you lose the joy of actual driving, to become a supervisor of your car. There is still value in lane assist on motorways and cruise control, but we have that anyway. The difference is all other car manufacturers haven't been selling FSD and robotaxis as "right around the corner" for the last few years. I understand the development problems and overambitious deadlines ... but if you took away the ebullient narrative and put just the facts on paper, I wouldn't be able to distinguish what's gone one from fraud.
        • natch 5y ago
          All good points, but this will get done one step at a time. Or “fix” in your parlance. Meantime, dramatic headlines will be dramatic.
• titzer 5y ago
  Honest question: has Tesla autopilot (FSD) passed a standard driving test with a human examiner?
• flerchin 5y ago
  5.6mph through a stop-sign is just ludicrous.
• ipsin 5y ago
  It sounds like the "recall" is an over-the-air patch, and you can't opt out. I suppose "recall" may also be a legal term, but it doesn't seem to fit well in this case.
  • meteor333 5y ago
    I think technically it's still applicable. It's a "recall" of the software and not the physical car.
  • stingrae 5y ago
    recalls apply to ota patches that have safety implications because you can't always guarantee that the user is in a place where the ota can be applied.
• devnulll 5y ago
  The tension between "Follow the Law" and "Drive like a human" is interesting. On the one hand, humans violate the law all the time: Rolling Stops, Speed Limits, Driving without Registration / Insurance, Passing on the Right, Left Lane Camping, Carpool lane violations, Stopping after the white line at a stop sign / light, not using turn signals properly, following too closely. Any FSD System that drives on the freeway and follows the speed limit is doomed to failure. Likewise, as evidenced by the crazy amount of "right on red" fines in cities, humans don't come to a full 3-second stop. "Drive like a human" seems a reasonable goal for now.
• xyst 5y ago
  FSD might be a complete joke at this point. Tesla should open source all of their data, code, and documents at this point. Clearly Tesla or any of this vulture capital funded companies cannot get the job done.
• judge2020 5y ago
  For reference, there is specifically a flag/toggle called "California stop" (rolling stop) in the feature flag control panel for FSD / autopilot features. Screenshot[0] and full scroll-through on Greentheonly's twitter[1]. This panel is only available to Tesla employees, as no FSD beta tester had seen it before it was posted to Twitter. That was back in December 2020 So I the 'chill/average/assertive' setting changes how it works, but it is true that Tesla intentionally allowed the cars to roll through a stop sign[2]. 0: https://i.judge.sh/LtHmP/5deuksuc_L.png https://i.judge.sh/LtHmP/5deuksuc_L.png 1: https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1336467057366487040?s=20&t=630nK3peEIlUijbCZFieww https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1336467057366487040?... 2: https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232 https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232
  • caf 5y ago
    This raises the question: what is "California Boost"?
• alanh 5y ago
  This is BS. Most human drivers do rolling stops. If you didn't want your Tesla to do a rolling stop, you had the option to set your FSD beta profile to a more conservative setting. Full stops, when no cross traffic is present, waste time and energy.
• mattacular 5y ago
  So they're recalling a feature that was explicitly and intentionally built to do something that runs afoul of the law, at the user's behest. Again this is by design, meeting their own requirements. For their self driving technology that is already labeled "beta". Why anyone in their right mind would willingly use this stuff in a risk-intensive life/death scenario like driving on public roads remains beyond me. (Yes I lose points every time I criticize Tesla online but I will keep doing it until someone makes it make sense or the company finally goes out of business for continuing this type of irresponsible behavior.)
  • judge2020 5y ago
    Rolling stops mimic human behavior. Going 5-10 MPH over the speed limit also mimics human behavior, and both of these settings are controllable by the human driver behind the wheel in FSD Beta[0]. At what point does the Beta (or Ford's BlueCruise or GM SuperCruise) force you to go exactly the speed limit? 0: https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232?s=20&t=mT-nlK4GHuxETPlVeaB0lA https://twitter.com/cooperlund/status/1488549356873695232?s=...
    • mattacular 5y ago
      Sounds almost as if "fully self-driving cars" coexisting with human driven cars is not feasible to do safely because it's not purely a technical problem. My contention is simply that Tesla is acting irresponsible so long as they continue to design and market otherwise.
• tibbydudeza 5y ago
  Meanwhile Karaoke mikes are now available from your nearest Tesla dealer. https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/31/22910462/tesla-karaoke-microphones-teslamic-distraction-merchandise-roundup https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/31/22910462/tesla-karaoke-mi...
• gibolt 5y ago
  'Recall' is not the correct word, even if it is officially what NHTSA uses. This is an 'option' in a 'beta' version that applies below 5mph. The recall is just an OTA update in a few days.
• pgib 5y ago
  "Tesla to push software update to update beta software behaviour." _Recall_ makes it sound very different from what will actually happen.
• rreichman 5y ago
  It's crazy that Musk is talking about full self driving within 11 months when the software can't reliably adhere to stop signs.
  • valine 5y ago
    It's not a matter of software reliability. The rolling stops was an intensionally added feature to make the car behave more naturally/human-like at stop signs. Tesla knows how to make the car stop at stop signs, they simply chose not to under certain circumstances. You can certainly argue that it was a bad decision on Tesla's part, but using it as a signal for software quality is ridiculous. Personally I think the removal of the rolling stop behavior is a minor tragedy.
    • rreichman 5y ago
      If software engineers at Tesla chose to break the law on purpose, which is what seems to have happened, then I believe they should be criminally charged.
• tomlin 5y ago
  Disobey seems a bit tame of a headline, considering the implications.
• tomlin 5y ago
  "Disobey" seems a bit tame of a headline, considering the implications.
• pl0x 5y ago
• noah_buddy 5y ago
  Bartleby the Tesla at a stop sign: I'd prefer not. My most Luddite view is that AV are not worth it right now. Maybe in 10 years, but I see too many idiots on the freeway sleeping or playing video games in Teslas while in the driver seat. If you're too busy to command a vehicle that can kill you and those around you, Uber to work or take the train. I don't trust the roadways to be a massive experiment in how close a corporation can cut it on self-driving tech with some acceptable margin of death. Sure, human drivers are probably worse in normal circumstances. But I'd happily outlaw AV in any peculiar circumstance till 99.9999% of the kinks are worked out away from other drivers who haven't opted into the grand experiment of robots on the road.
• turdnagel 5y ago
  What is it with this headline? Tesla is deploying new firmware OTA. No vehicles are being recalled. If deploying new software is a "recall" then I do recalls dozens of times a week.
• tdiggity 5y ago
  Just throwing in my experience here. Come down to Southern California. The rolling stop is everywhere. Not so much in SF Bay Area where I grew up. People get irritated if you drive the speed limit and make full stops. Especially at 4 way stop signs, I often feel like people are confused by a full stop, lol. I am also an FSD beta user, and I have my car set to standard assertiveness and it does not roll through stops. And, one last comment on the vision of the car - it’s a whole different beast with the new fsd beta code. The highway autopilot code is not safe on the streets and until you see the fsd beta code at work, it’s easy to think that it will perform poorly on local roads. Yes, it can do stupid things and cause anaccident, but not in the way the autopilot code will. It’s different.
• ht85 5y ago
  It'll be fully operational by next year, I swear.
• ht85 5y ago
  It'll be fully operational by next year.
• valine 5y ago
  That Tesla headline is misleading. Should be “Tesla Removes Rolling Stops from Assertive Driving Profile”. Tesla added rolling stops to make the car behave more human like. NHTSA said no, so Tesla removed the feature.
  • acdha 5y ago
    It’s pretty accurate even if you’re a fan of the company. The more accurate description is that they shipped a feature which breaks traffic laws, which is a serious error in a company asking us to trust their judgement in a safety-critical system. Given how many other problems they’ve had and the consistent overselling of their capabilities and safety, that’s an important conversation to have.
    • valine 5y ago
      It’s not serious at all imho. People roll stop signs all the time, it’s part of driving culture. If you feel obligated to obey the letter of every driving law you could have turned it off in settings. Tesla also has an option to override the speed limit, you want to remove that too?
      • acdha 5y ago
        People are also killed or injured by drivers all of the time, too. Remember when the selling point of AVs was that they’d reducr the ~40k / 300k Americans so impacted annually? Telling manufacturers that it’s okay to ignore laws if it gets you there faster will have the opposite effect.
        • pmorici 5y ago
          Safety is measured in accidents per mile driven, lower being better. While there maybe a loose correlation strict obedience to the law is not in itself a measure of safety.
          • acdha 5y ago
• njarboe 5y ago
  Click-bait title. Tesla was forced to remove the rolling-stop option when the driver is using the beta version of FSD in the "Assertive" mode. No-one has reported any injuries or problems with this feature. Seems to me having this option is good to have. This behavior is expected in many locations, saves time and energy, and is often safer than coming to a full stop. Cops should feel free to ticket these cars when they do this if they think its not safe, but NHTSA shouldn't be involved in this very important emerging technology at this low a level. "Tesla said as of Jan. 27 it was not aware of any warranty claims, crashes, injuries or fatalities related to the recall." It is good for automatic cars to behave similar to humans for safety and social acceptance.
• sschueller 5y ago
  I want to government to change the rules and make Tesla responsible for all accidents causes by FSD. Then let's see how long until that feature no longer exists and Tesla has to admit that what they have been peddling is vaporware.
  • jacquesm 5y ago
    I'd give it about 15 minutes until an OTA recall of all software that allows the car to move without a human directing it all the time.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• curious_cat_163 5y ago
  I write this as a massive proponent of self-driving vehicles. Musk has himself said that the self-driving has to be proven to be orders of magnitude safer than humans. Given that, the last thing you want is a bunch of accidents delaying the mass-adoption of this tech. So, the fact that they shipped this is mind-boggling. I wonder who made the call on this.
  • erehweb 5y ago
    Seems like this is important enough for Musk to make the call.
• LightG 5y ago
  Can we just cut to the chase? 1) We'll not see true FSD in any car for, maybe, another 10-20 years. 2) Those who bought Tesla FSD should ask for a refund. 3) Musk will be forced to release FSD-lite, which will be advanced lane assist. 4) Until said 10-20 years have passed, you will always be required to monitor FSD. This is my point. I actually enjoy driving. It would drive me nuts to become the supervisor of my car. And that's the eventual end result of FSD. You shall become the supervisor of your car. Don't forget to schedule some one-to-one performance reviews, and a performance plan.
• ummonk 5y ago
  I’m no Tesla fan but 2 mph rolling stops at clear intersections hardly seem like a big deal.
• iainmerrick 5y ago
  One thing I don’t recall seeing discussed before: why have 4-way stops at all? Far, far better to have clearly delineated major and minor roads at intersections. You yield when going from minor to major - no confusion, less temptation to “jump the queue” (although some drivers will still try). The main downside is that it can take a long time to get onto the main road safely when it’s busy. But traffic lights fix that.
• megablast 5y ago
  Now if only every car company did that!!
• wly_cdgr 5y ago
  Surely we want our self-driving cars to be able to disobey stop signs under the right circumstances?
• the_black_hand 5y ago
  I don't much about the tech behind Tesla, but as an engineer I'd never trust a "self-driving" car without lidar. This has nothing to do with the stop sign issue , but the absence of lidar gives me the sense that tesla is trying cut corners to get to something that's merely good enough. Waymo and cruise seem to be way ahead despite Musk's promises.
• fortran77 5y ago
  I notice that a lot of BMWs seem to have this same issue.
• uag 5y ago
  learn from the master Elon, another PR win
• orasis 5y ago
  If it is a safer, smoother driving experience it should be legal. The same with drifting across lane lines when appropriate.