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Richard M. Stallman resigns

• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• Siira 7y ago
  It’s enlightening that the mob that uses Apple’s locked down devices (which is “cool” instead of “gross”) is able to fire RMS over his comments on semantics; The Nash equilibria are clear.
• ddtaylor 7y ago
  I don't agree with many things RMS says, but I am not a fan of this cancel culture where character assassinations are orchestrated routinely.
  • ceejayoz 7y ago
    When you've made statements about "voluntary pedophilia" in the past, and you decide to voluntarily wade into the Epstein scandal, that's probably better termed character suicide.
  • dlp211 7y ago
    Cancel culture, or as most adults like to refer to it, consequences.
    • ihatemondays 7y ago
      This. And on top of all that, he quite literally voluntarily resigned, it's in the title.
      • mtrower 7y ago
        It is not likely, in your estimation, that he was pressured and coerced into "resigning"?
• mullikine 7y ago
  There are different types of right, like there are different types of freedom. I would rather be Richard than any of the village idiots who are villifying him. I would rather be Batman and take the bad image for sticking up for what is right, and I would rather be Jesus than some moron casting the whip. There is unbias correctness and there is political correctness, libre software and gratis software. I understand, Richard. If only people were smart enough to realise they are villifying the best of us.
• Donald 7y ago
  Context: RMS waded into the MIT Epstein scandal https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... > I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation.
  • norswap 7y ago
    People: go read his email and make up your own mind about whether the punishment is proportionate to the crime. (And take a few minutes to be appalled at the quality of the arguments for that particular witch hunt.)
    • CathedralBorrow 7y ago
      Good point. I read the entire email thread and find the consequences entirely predictable, acceptable and proportionate to his actions.
      • norswap 7y ago
        Great, I hope you have a nice day!
  • AlexandrB 7y ago
    "Waded in" is exactly the right phrase. RMS is neither a legal expert nor a moral philosopher. Commenting on the definition of assault and the nature of consent is outside his field of expertise and he should have just replied with a curt "I will not be attending". My personal takeaway is that it's important to understand the limitations of your own knowledge before succumbing to the urge to comment on something.
    • Aloha 7y ago
      The man is known for not keeping his mouth shut when he sees something that bothers him. While I may not like his politics I agree that he should speak his mind.
• aurelian15 7y ago
  More information on‒what I guess‒is the relevant backstory (RMS making reprehensible statements related to the Epstein scandal) can be found (among other places) in this blog post [1] by Matthew Garrett (original source referenced in the post is [2]). [1] https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/52587.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/52587.html [2] https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...
  • fiblye 7y ago
    >Again, this mailing list has undergraduate students on it. It is likely some of them are “18 years old or 17”. What a horribly asinine point. If you’re an undergraduate student and unable to deal with uncomfortable opinions, you are too immature to be a university student. The further infantilization of college students, and worse, college staff, never ceases to amaze me.
    • DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
      Please keep it civil. Otherwise any good points you make could be obscured by your tone.
    • roguecoder 7y ago
      Do you spend a lot of time at work having your vulnerability to rape talked about by your boss?
  • RHSeeger 7y ago
    That second one was an off the deep end rant. 1. It totally ignores the fact that it's possible to be highly respectable for some things and not for other things. Stallman has always been a jerk, but he's also always been trying to fight the good fight. Washington had slaves, that doesn't mean we should hate him. 2. You don't get to call out people for indicating that men are better at some things, and then point out that women are better at some things. Either you're allowed to believe in differences based on sex or you aren't. I've never been a big fan of Stallman because I think he's a little to far into the realm of zealot. However, he is good for society as a whole because, in general, he's fighting for the right things. I don't think it's right to condemn him, throw the baby out with the bath water, because he's an idiot about some things.
• favorited 7y ago
  Not unexpected, but I'm surprised it happened so soon after he resigned from MIT/CSAIL. Earlier today the director of the GNOME Foundation requested that RMS resign from the FSF, and said severing ties with the FSF could happen if he didn't step down. https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relationship-gnu-fsf/ https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relations...
  • benatkin 7y ago
    I think there was more social pressure for him to resign from FSF, and more institutional pressure for him to resign from MIT/CSAIL. The institutional pressure probably wasn't as painful, but was more forceful. I think he'd probably been holding back the pressure he felt to get the FSF thing over with for a while, but hoping for the controversy to die down, but when he was forced (or practically forced) to resign from MIT/CSAIL it became clear he wasn't going to win, and he decided to get it over with. Perhaps he'll be sleeping better tonight.
    • droopyEyelids 7y ago
      Did he resign from MIT? If so, he won't be sleeping well- he actually lived in his office (it was also his residence)
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • benatkin 7y ago
        Yes. [0] And indeed he used to live there. He hasn't lived there in years, though. [1] 0: https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman... 1: https://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html https://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html
  • rurban 7y ago
    GNOME, I knew it. Happy to use xfce only. GNOME is dangerous cancer.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• djrobstep 7y ago
  This is a good step. Stallman has been a liability as a figurehead for a long time, and software freedom deserves better standard-bearers. I saw Stallman once at a public lecture. He was incredibly rude, but is seemingly oblivious to how obnoxious he is being (he struck me as somebody heavily on the spectrum). I hate to think how many people have written off the cause of software freedom as a joke because of his conduct. People around him ought to be telling him in stronger terms that his views and general manner are unacceptable.
  • mirceal 7y ago
    you know, i saw Stallman at a conference once and the nice people at FSF were also there. FSF as a whole is doing important work and liked the talks they gave and how they were talking about some of the issues ivolved. Stallman on the other side came across as a nutjob. And it wasn’t because of his principles (which if you think about it are great and something to actually aspire to - at least in connection to software) but because of his behavior. Being antisocial or making a claim without paying attention to the social context or the setting the way he managed to do leads me to believe that he may have some sort of mental health issues. again: all respect for his work and principles when it comes to software dissolved by anti-social behavior.
    • favorited 7y ago
      I believe it. I mean, he's the same guy who picked something off his foot and ate it[0]. He clearly doesn't understand or care about behaving in a socially acceptable way. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67KtxG_0DVo#t=1m58s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67KtxG_0DVo#t=1m58s
    • robocat 7y ago
      Note that "nutjob" and "mental health issues" are name-calling and I suspect against the HN guidelines e.g. see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20name-calling&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
• dang 7y ago
  The previous thread was https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20989696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20989696.
  • favorited 7y ago
    It's good context, but that one was focused on his MIT resignation, & predates his resignation from the FSF.
    • dang 7y ago
      When there is significant new information in a major ongoing story, standard practice is to have a new thread about the latest development, and let the earlier thread fall off the front page. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query="significant%20new%20information"&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
• jimrandomh 7y ago
  Before jumping to criticize Stallman, be aware: there is a big difference between what today's round of headlines claim Stallman wrote, and what he actually wrote. Given the relatively clear-cut nature of the lies the press has told about him, I think he ought to be suing for libel.
  • nemothekid 7y ago
    What is the counter argument for what Stallman wrote? I've seen that the "press is going too hard on him", but, honestly, I think they were justified. What is the "big difference" to you? If someone, personally, said to me that that someone be absolved of a crime, because the other, coerced, party was "willing" at that moment, I'd seriously question their morals.
    • dx87 7y ago
      Even if the person who commited the crime had no knowledge that the other party was coerced? Why are they at fault because they were lied to and tricked into commiting a crime?
      • nemothekid 7y ago
        First, claiming ignorance isn't a strong defense. It wouldn't hold up in any court in America, so I have no reason to buy it as an argument. However, if it did, to be fair, you would have to seriously consider if it is reasonable to assume that person was ignorant. For example, if you know your friend is a drug dealer and he asks you to "drop off a bag at another house", you would get the book thrown at you even if you didn't know they were drugs in the bag.
      • throwaway17746 7y ago
        There are certain crimes for which intent doesn't matter, legally. This is one of them. And likewise from a moral perspective: Minsky did harm her. Regardless of his knowledge of the situation at the time, I would expect him (were he still alive) to apologize and do whatever he could to try and heal the pain he caused. However, I do also think it would reflect much differently on his character if he knew all the details of the situation he was in vs. if he did not. That, from what I've seen, is still unclear. Consequences and intent both matter.
• Kye 7y ago
  I've always heard the person who brings a company to a turning point might not be the one to make the turn. Maybe it's the same for movements. Open source went a long way with his poor behavior, but now it's likely to become a liability as open source spreads further into a world of collapsed context and diverse experiences.
  • ywjanananz 7y ago
    tech will thrive with the diverse experiences of morons too fragile to handle adult discussion
• javagram 7y ago
  A good comparison by another poster today here between RMS’ statements on the mailing list and the lies the news media published about them https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990426 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990426 I wonder what this means for the influence of the FSF in general. And will RMS stop working on emacs and other software?
  • rrss 7y ago
    > and will RMS stop working on emacs and other software? Has he still been contributing code? My impression was always that he wrote the first versions of emacs,gcc,... many years ago, and many other people have taken over in the intervening decades. I'm quite confident he isn't working on gcc anymore.
    • javagram 7y ago
      I knew he no longer works on GCC and many other projects but I thought he still contributed to emacs. Looking at the recent commits on GitHub, it appears I was wrong about that. Did he have mainly a supervisory role at the FSF or was he just giving talks lately and no longer actively contributing?
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• coconut_crab 7y ago
  The Internet doesn't forget, so everyone can be branded mysogynist/mysandry/pedophile/etc.. just by making mistakes or having taken quotes out of context. People have limited attention and the media profits on showing the ugliness of others. This is not how it should be but I don't know how to fix that...
  • johnny22 7y ago
    it's not out of context. you can read his own posts.
    • martinky24 7y ago
      Yeah, his comments were absolutely disgusting. People here are acting like the media is railroading him. No, he was quite literally defending child rape.
    • coconut_crab 7y ago
      In my original post, 'making mistakes' was put before 'out of context', the Internet doesn't allow anyone to have a 2nd chance of doing anything. Once you are branded as something, it will stuck with you forever, erasing any previous achievement or contribution you have done. And I don't like that.
      • roguecoder 7y ago
        He has had hundreds of chances. He was first called out ten years ago. It took a really long time for him to convince this many people that he was a pox upon our industry. I respect the level of effort and commitment to being actively destructive to the community that he put in to the project.
      • tdb7893 7y ago
        To get a second chance you need to realize what you did wrong and apologize (at least that the standard I set for kids). Until that I assume he's still just as bad as when he made the "mistake.
  • deleted 7y ago
• esotericn 7y ago
  C-x C-c. Thank you for bringing the FSF into the world, Richard. Whatever comes out of this and whatever comes next, your philosophy on software freedom has influenced us in innumerable ways.
  • topmonk 7y ago
    "C-x C-c" should become a new rallying cry for valuing technological ability over political beliefs.
    • UncleMeat 7y ago
      And what of all of the qualified developers who are excluded from the community by ignorant or bigoted people in positions of power? What of their technological ability?
      • topmonk 7y ago
        You are talking about a brilliant man actually getting fired, vs some hypothetical what-if that hasn't been proven. Why not go after actual occurrences of discrimination, rather than assuming anytime some speaks out in a non-PC manner, that it means they are also going to discriminate against others? This is arresting for murder before it happens. It's the canonical example of "thought crime".
        • UncleMeat 7y ago
          Tons of women are describing his shitty behavior over the years and how they were told to avoid him. "Christ, why would I want to work there near this guy" leading to women leaving the community produces the same outcome as organized discrimination. If RMS had just thought this stuff in his head he'd be fine. His actions harm the community. This is the exact opposite of a "thought crime".
          • topmonk 7y ago
            Sorry, you're right. I didn't realize the extent of his problematic behavior.
• aazaa 7y ago
  I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It sets a precedent that will absolutely lead to self-censorship on a topic that really requires the disinfecting power of sunshine. This strengthens the power of those who have no use for scientific inquiry and are more interested in inquisition.
  • brian-armstrong 7y ago
    Er, sorry, no. A public mailing list is not the correct venue for this discussion. Supposing as you do that society currently holds the wrong opinion on "does sex with minors constitute sexual assault?", the right answer is unlikely to be hashed out on a MIT list for CS activities. You also lend Stallman more weight than he deserves. His resignation will go unnoticed by all outside of our specific tech sphere and certainly will not "set a precedent that will absolutely lead to self-censorship" (???). Should we cheer his resignation? It's undoubtedly a sad moment for him and his supporters, but Stallman's behavior quite likely has held back the FSF for some time. He's an ideologue, not a leader.
    • aazaa 7y ago
      > ... Supposing as you do that society currently holds the wrong opinion on "does sex with minors constitute sexual assault?", the right answer is unlikely to be hashed out on a MIT list for CS activities. I expressed no opinion either way on that topic. I don't even consider the topic relevant to my position, which is that once we agree that merely asking some questions will result in harsh punishments, we're hosed as a society. Today, it's the question you hate that gets punished. Tomorrow it will be the question you hold most dear.
      • kthejoker2 7y ago
        The punishment is not the result of asking questions. The punishment is for his poor judgement of where to ask those questions - namely a mailing list owned and operated by MIT on which he served as a representative of while posting to that list. So your premise is flawed and thus your position is (ironically) irrelevant to the topic.
• dangxiaopin 7y ago
  "When the forest is chopped down, the chips fly" --Joseph Stalin
• martinky24 7y ago
  His comments were disgusting. There's no room for misunderstanding here. If you have sex with an underage sex slave, it is assault. Inarguable. But he tried to argue that. Good riddance.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
• LeoPanthera 7y ago
  Mirror, since the site is having problems: http://archive.is/h48kp http://archive.is/h48kp
• jdub 7y ago
  Knowing how stubborn and aloof Richard tends to be, it is a huge surprise that this has happened at all, let alone so quickly. I can only imagine there was an immense amount of pressure from the board, partner projects, and sponsors.
  • smitty1e 7y ago
    Or maybe, as with Guido van Rossum (in an unrelated context), he's had a bellyful of our contemporary variations on the French Revolution.
    • avinium 7y ago
      For the uninitiated, what happened with Guido van Rossum?
      • azernik 7y ago
        Very unrelated issue - he resigned after the flamewars regarding PEP 572 (the addition of an assignment expression ':='). After it had gone on for a while, he finally used his BDFL authority to shut down debate and approve the PEP, and then resigned shortly after. In particular, he felt that the Python Code of Conduct's requirement for civility was being completely ignored in attacks on him in social media. See https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/ https://lwn.net/Articles/757713/ for background, and https://lwn.net/Articles/759654/ https://lwn.net/Articles/759654/ for his resignation letter.
  • gkoberger 7y ago
    At his level, "fired" and "resigned" are often synonyms.
• AviationAtom 7y ago
  I have no doubt there will be one of these incidents where the mob mentality that is out for blood leads to catastrophic consequences. I have a hunch that perhaps then people will approach these situations with at least a bit of caution. The guy messed up, but it does not change his contributions. When is his punishment going to be seemed sufficient?
• twirlock 7y ago
  Throw this guy under a bus and force him to resign, but accidentally accepting donations from a child trafficker and then accidentally writing him a thank you letter is just normal mistakes for staff at prestigious technology schools. Bravo academia. So sophisticated. Oh and good on the neoliberal media establishment for memory-holing the sex trafficking ring established by billionaires, but keeping the pressure up on some guy who just commented. Absolute hypocrisy. The people running things are abject trash.
• tehjoker 7y ago
  This is very sad that the leader of the FSF took such actions. We benefited from his insights and advocacy on software, but the defense of Epstein, who essentially had a child abuse production line and defense of pedophilia is not something I can support and it is proper that someone new takes over. Stallman's views were a variety of American libertarianism. While there are a few good points within that tradition regarding personal freedom, it's kind of sad that he carried some of the other baggage with his obsession with age of consent laws.
  • codyb 7y ago
    From reading his comments isn’t he defending someone named Minsk who had sex with a 17 year old and didn’t know she was being coerced into it by Epstein? It seems to be a bit of a far fetched theory to me that this guy would meet a 17 year old through Epstein and not really be aware of what Epstein was doing, but it doesn’t really seem to be a defense of sexual trafficking, pedophilia or rape. That being said this is from my reading of the above thread so maybe I’m not getting the full picture here.
    • tehjoker 7y ago
      Sorry, I was shocked and was reading around and forgot which article was linked at the top. I read this one: https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-stallman-famed-mit-computer-scientist-who-defended-jeffrey-epstein-resigns https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-stallman-famed-mit-com...
      • codyb 7y ago
        Ah, so I think my interpretation of his Minsky comments was right, although it seems unlikely to me that Minksy didn’t know. The whole legalizing child porn and age of consent thing, oof.
    • hncomment 7y ago
      In they were in Massachusetts, Minsky might have asked, "Are you here willingly, and how old are you?" And he could have received the reply, "Absolutely, I'm having the time of my life with Jeffrey and all the famous people he introduces me to, and I'm 16." And the sex might then have seemed consensual and legal to Minsky, because even now in 2019, the age of consent in Massachusetts is 16.
• iamnothere 7y ago
  RMS was defending Minsky, awkwardly. As someone who has a history of social awkwardness, he should be forgiven for this. He's been a good steward of the FSF, which has doing important work in the service of free (read: non-backdoored) hardware lately. I know there are good people still at the FSF, but I can only hope they are as incorruptible and dogged as RMS. The way this attack came suddenly out of the depths makes me suspect something coordinated. It's too similar to how Tor was seized, and how Linus was almost dethroned. There's something nasty afoot, and I don't like it one bit.
  • sp332 7y ago
    Forgiving someone doesn't mean letting them keep positions of power or avoid accountability.
    • iamnothere 7y ago
      "Accountability" for an awkward statement? You'll have to excuse me if I don't think someone deserves a public flogging for poor phrasing and awful timing. When you're talking about organizations that are CRITICAL to software freedom, I'd much rather have an incorruptible but thoroughly awkward ideologue in charge than an unknown quantity. Who comes next? Will they compromise on things that shouldn't be compromised? It's another thing to worry about.
      • sp332 7y ago
        The original email thread is not an isolated incident. https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... Edit: additional stuff https://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%20... https://mobile.twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1173750767586426880 https://mobile.twitter.com/aprilaser/status/1173750767586426... https://twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/1172545166953066497 https://twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/1172545166953066497 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 https://twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/994267277460619265 https://twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/994267277460619265 https://mobile.twitter.com/quince/status/1172290839369773057 https://mobile.twitter.com/quince/status/1172290839369773057
• big_chungus 7y ago
  My goodness, Stallman just got cancelled. I think it's absolutely fair to criticize statements he's made (I absolutely disagree with his statements on pedophilia), but not to pressure him out of the work to which he's devoted his life. Kicked out of MIT and the FSF? That's gotta be rough for the guy. Always nice to see a few angry people on the 'net with out-sized voices manage to bring down an icon of computer science. No one should have his life ruined by a kangaroo trial in the court of public opinion. People don't make good decisions when they try to react and "do something"; it would make more sense to let things die down a little and get the facts on what actually happened. Then make a decision on how best to go forward.
• hristov 7y ago
  I think it is unfair to hound him over his latest statement about sexual assault. He is absolutely right that the term sexual assault includes actions that are so different that it can be used to unfairly destroy people's reputation. And if you are going to call someone a monster, it is better to more precisely define what type of sexual assault he did. I myself was sexually assaulted some time ago. I was in an ordinary nightclub, I went to the mens room, and on walking out of the mens room some a-hole decided to slap my ass on the way out. I gave him a dirty look, maybe I should have had him kicked out of the club, but I don't think it was necessary to have him fired from his job or ruin his career.
  • agumonkey 7y ago
    This was the kind of gray area people dealt with on their own and cannot IMO be regulated by law (because it's just barely possible to define). There are limits though but today it's becoming too binary and myopic. Weird era.
  • gkoberger 7y ago
    If he wrote that, he'd likely still have a job. But that's not what he wrote. He took it too far.
    • ufo 7y ago
      And more importantly, this latest controversy was not an isolated incident. It builds on a long history of questionable behaviour
    • ryan-allen 7y ago
      What did he write? I'm out of the loop on this. EDIT: I think this covers it all? https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ne8b47/two-researchers-resign-in-protest-over-mit-media-labs-ties-to-jeffrey-epstein https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ne8b47/two-researchers-re...
      • gkoberger 7y ago
        If we're gonna go with Vice, this is the correct article: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci...
• mlindner 7y ago
  Unfortunate witch hunt against an innocent, if strange, man. I could go on but people don't want to hear anything other than the hateful things that they believe.
  • mikeash 7y ago
    Nobody’s burning him at the stake or putting him in jail. He can go on living a perfectly good life. What he can no longer do is act in a leadership role in the community and corrupt that community with his crap.
    • mlindner 7y ago
      He's not corrupting anything.
• mikeash 7y ago
  I’m allowed to criticize him after reading what he actually wrote, right? Because I did and came away from it with the conclusion that he’s evil and shouldn’t be anywhere near anything resembling a leadership position.
  • scrollaway 7y ago
    He is many things, and shouldn't have been in a leadership position for a long time, but he is definitely not evil. I have a hard time even imagining how you reach the conclusion that he might be evil. Even the worst out of context headlines on his recent quotes just put him in the "gross" category. I say this, and I'm very glad he stepped down. I've argued for years that he should have stepped down a long time ago.
    • mikeash 7y ago
      Evil is fundamentally a lack of empathy and I see no empathy from this man. He’s not a cackling crazy Hitler figure, but he seems to have a difficult time figuring out just what the problem is with having sex with children and with child slaves, and chooses to dedicate a great deal of mental energy defending the more powerful people in this scenario.
      • scrollaway 7y ago
        The definition of evil is always … a heated topic, but the common theme usually is that the suffering evil inflicts is not accidental. In your reply here, you're describing sociopathy. I wouldn't describe Stallman as a sociopath but I could definitely see the arguments for it. But even the most repulsive things I've seen this man say/do never got me to think "Yeah, this dude wants others to suffer". Edit: And no, I don't think he has a difficult time "figuring out what the problem is".
        • mikeash 7y ago
          I think that’s a facile Hollywood idea of evil. People like that exist, but plenty of evil people don’t care about suffering. A psychologist assigned to the Nuremberg trials put it better than I ever could. “In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.”
• geofft 7y ago
  > Washington had slaves, that doesn't mean we should hate him. Counterpoint: yes it does. Judging Washington by the standards of his time and his peers, slavery was abhorrent. Take the case of Quock Walker, who sued for his freedom in 1781, for instance. The chief justice of Massachusetts (and later Washington's own nominee for chief justice of the US) wrote: > As to the doctrine of slavery and the right of Christians to hold Africans in perpetual servitude, and sell and treat them as we do our horses and cattle [...] nowhere is it expressly enacted or established. It has been a usage -- a usage which took its origin from the practice of some of the European nations, and the regulations of British government respecting the then Colonies, for the benefit of trade and wealth. But whatever sentiments have formerly prevailed in this particular or slid in upon us by the example of others, a different idea has taken place with the people of America, more favorable to the natural rights of mankind, and to that natural, innate desire of Liberty, with which Heaven (without regard to color, complexion, or shape of noses-features) has inspired all the human race. And upon this ground our Constitution of Government [...] sets out with declaring that all men are born free and equal [...] and in short is totally repugnant to the idea of being born slaves. This being the case, I think the idea of slavery is inconsistent with our own conduct and Constitution; and there can be no such thing as perpetual servitude of a rational creature [...] As recorded by Washington's contemporary James Madison, Washington's contemporary Gouverneur Morris denounced the three-fifths compromise during the 1787 constitutional convention: > He never would concur in upholding domestic slavery. It was a nefarious institution. It was the curse of heaven on the States where it prevailed. Compare the free regions of the Middle States, where a rich & noble cultivation marks the prosperity & happiness of the people, with the misery & poverty which overspread the barren wastes of Va. Maryd. & the other States having slaves. [...] Upon what principle is it that the slaves shall be computed in the representation? Are they men? Then make them Citizens and let them vote. [...] The admission of slaves into the Representation when fairly explained comes to this: that the inhabitant of Georgia and S. C. who goes to the Coast of Africa, and in defiance of the most sacred laws of humanity tears away his fellow creatures from their dearest connections & damns them to the most cruel bondages, shall have more votes in a Govt. instituted for protection of the rights of mankind, than the Citizen of Pa. or N. Jersey who views with a laudable horror, so nefarious a practice. We should not so facilely dismiss the difficult challenge that Washington is seen as the father of this nation and yet owned slaves. Other founding fathers understood that the American norm of liberty was clearly incompatible with holding slavery in anything other than contempt. Other founding fathers called his behavior "repugnant" and "nefarious" - why should we shy away from criticizing him? It seems far more sensible to me to worry that Washington (along with many others) led our nation into believing a compromised, twisted view of liberty and the natural rights of man, with lasting consequences for the country which hardly ended in the Civil War.
• simplecomplex 7y ago
  People have to have a path to redemption. Stallman apologized and admitted he was wrong. Why is it not acceptable to make a mistake with words? Isn't it impractical to expect everyone to never say something they regret? These are words we're talking about. It's not like Stallman raped a child. Kicking him out of FSF and MIT seems quite excessive for somebody saying something and then apologizing for it. Whether they are Stallman, a student, or anyone really. Do the people involved at FSF and MIT hold themselves to the same standard they're holding Stallman to? We'll surely find out because humans tend to say a lot of stupid shit over the course of their lifetime.
  • eropple 7y ago
    Constructing a situation in which Marvin Minsky somehow was blameless for his relationship with a known pedophile and child sex trafficker and situations directly resulting from that relationship, then projecting the reactions of other people through that situation, is not merely a mistake with words. Coupled with his at-best-real-gross chinstroking about minors, consent, and statutory rape in the past, it demonstrates a pattern. And it's a pattern that, obviously, made enough people uncomfortable as to want to not associate with him--as is their right. MIT doesn't have to give Richard Stallman a do-nothing job. The FSF doesn't have to give Richard Stallman a (nearly) do-nothing job. Everybody makes mistakes, sure. You make up for those mistakes by doing good and doing right and if Stallman wants redemption, literally nobody is stopping him from going after it. They're just not bankrolling it. There's a difference here.
    • simplecomplex 7y ago
      > is not merely a mistake with words. Yes. Yes, it is. Are we talking about the same story? We’re talking about something Richard Stallman said. That is his offense and the reason for him being kicked out of FSF and MIT. Since you dodged the whole point of my comment by reiterating that Stallman said something offensive, I’ll restate my point clearly as a question: In your opinion, can someone be forgiven for saying something wrong? and how do they seek that forgiveness other than apologizing and admitting they were wrong? I’m sure like everyone you’ve said horrible shit over your lifetime, whether in public or private, whether strangers or family. If we brought out those people hurt by your words over your lifetime, wouldn’t you want to be forgiven? Don’t hold other people to a different standard than you hold yourself.
• rosser 7y ago
  I find the volume of the noise being made over whether or not the "entirely willing" bit was quoted out of context by the media for sensationalist purposes — which it 100% was — quite curious. To me, the place Stallman screwed up was in trying to quibble over terms in defense of a man who we have reason to believe had sex with an woman of an age in a jurisdiction where that might have constituted rape. Because that's what it's about: he said, "But is it really?" — literally, in fact — about something which, for legal purposes, his opinion is irrelevant. To wit: > Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17. Stallman said that. He went there. He quibbled over whether something constituted rape, as if the Virgin Islands cares one whit what rms thinks of their laws. That's where he screwed up, and people in the thread said so at the time, too. So people now can try to make this shit-show about his being quoted out of context about "entirely willing" — which, again, it was — as much as they want, but that just won't make it so. This is entirely about Stallman having quibbled over rape, not whether he was selectively quoted in the course of quibbling over rape. EDIT: Phrasing
  • dropit_sphere 7y ago
    >Stallman quibbled over the definition of rape. Hell yes he did. Wouldn't you? If I made my own country where "rape" was defined as "sex without first doing twenty jumping jacks," wouldn't you "quibble"? >everyone admits knowingly slept with an woman of an age in a jurisdiction where that constituted rape. So what? I drove 37 in a 35 today, who cares? You can't outsource your morality to the legal system like that. If Minsky did something bad, say he did something bad. But don't launder your outrage through the VI's laws.
    • rosser 7y ago
      Really? You're going to make a moral comparison between a minor traffic violation (not even a primary offense!) and having sex with a coerced child?
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
• lone_haxx0r 7y ago
  "What you can't say" by Paul Graham is eerily relevant today http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
  • proffan 7y ago
    Same thought, this article is superbly written. Thank you for the reference!
  • lightedman 7y ago
    That entire article is absolutely hypocritical given how discourse is controlled on this site.
• smoothheckler 7y ago
  i have had endless shit to shovel at stallman over the years but this is just the tits, taken down over nothing at all because cancel-crazy moral panickers have convinced milquetoast moron administrators that “psychological safety” is something that hinges on people only professing approved opinions eat yourselves, you progressive turds. eat yourself for my entertainment
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• Endy 7y ago
  Well, I'm now going to be following Stallman without the FSF around. His (admittedly) iconoclastic views are important, and I appreciate what he says about technology and privacy. His legal views are questionable, yes, but I don't accept the idea that he should be removed from the FSF.
• naringas 7y ago
  it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the information technology is steering towards being more similar in our opinions and in what we can say without facing consequences. Recently I started to thing about how in spite of having the ability to share, and change, and store information better and with more ease than ever, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. Instead of having more transparent institutions, everything is getting more "opaque" (so to speak) towards the public (even it this is happening due to overload). does anyone remember "information wants to be free"? I don't think anybody says that anymore, but I remember reading that a bunch on slashdot in the early 00s
  • paggle 7y ago
    That’s why I mostly use pseudonymous channels these days, like this one. I treat everything I say with my real name like I’m publishing it on the front page of the New York Times and submitting three copies to the Library of Congress. Many fewer of my current associates hear any real thoughts of mine compared to 20 years ago. I used to get into all kinds of arguments like Stallman’s, on public email lists, which thankfully haven’t surfaced online (yet).
    • armitron 7y ago
      Wait until the AIs get a little better at forensics. Might not be wise to post comments you wouldn't want to come back at you at a forum that doesn't let you delete them, pseudonymous - for now - or not.
      • paggle 7y ago
        It is something I've thought more about in recent years and have pulled back on what I say even pseudonymously.
• robocat 7y ago
  Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar pit. I certainly respect RMS for what he created and his idealism (although last time I saw him talk he spent about half the time negatively pontificating about Linus and Linux, which seriously damaged his credibility IMHO). It must be devastating to be on the receiving end of such ire.
  • dlp211 7y ago
    Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.
    • robocat 7y ago
      > He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. I see plenty of political and tech leaders set extremely low moral standards. Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children? His comments are tragically inept - but this seems to boil down to being targeted by breaking headlines such as the New York Post: "MIT scientist says Epstein victim Virginia Giuffre was ‘entirely willing’".
      • dlp211 7y ago
        They should all be held accountable, sadly I do not wield such power to hold them to account. That said, while the headlines are sensational, the fact is that RMS doesn't seem to understand what willing means or power dynamics.
        • ipince 7y ago
• typon 7y ago
  This is actually the best outcome for the FSF. Unwittingly, the FSF might now need to find a leader who isn't a known weirdo/creep who's "genius" people merely tolerate. This might be the best news for FSF fans like me.
  • jordigh 7y ago
    I kind of agree. As another free software fan, I've been uncomfortable with a number of things that RMS has been doing. Free software is good, no compromise/no surrender is good, and fighting against proprietary software is good. Doing it the ways RMS has been doing it is often not good.
    • enriquto 7y ago
      I do not feel at all identified with that view. Mine is just a particular case, but as a mathematician I was attracted to computer science (as a legitimate field with important real-world effects) thanks to a talk that RMS gave in my university. First I liked his personality and sincerity in the way he explained the printer driver story; then I listened and read everything else he said (especially "the right to read") and it ressonated with my thoughts very powerfully. I guees the same thing happens to many people.
  • rezmason 7y ago
    For as long as I've followed the free software movement, I've wanted them to find a new spokesperson. Surely there's an ideal-driven programmer iconoclast out there who doesn't pick stuff off his feet in the middle of a Q&A and then eat it.
  • partialrecall 7y ago
    Do you have somebody in mind?
  • im3w1l 7y ago
    Having an uncompromising autist with unbendable principles at the job was the right man at the right job. There is a high chance that FSF will be taken over by some people-pleaser that compromises FSF into oblivion. There aren't that many people out there who would take as strong and opinionated stances.
• smsm42 7y ago
  It is interesting that Stallman has been expressing very harsh opinions, unpopular among many people, for decades. Nothing happened to him, on the contrary, he was well respected even among people who did not share his political views and who were frequently on the receiving end of his criticism. But as soon as he dared to veer a little from the party line in one particular question, he has been unpersoned in literally couple of days, despite all apologies and attempts to explain he didn't really mean any heresy. I guess that shows who you can disagree with and who would really hurt you if they even suspect you might disagree (even though you don't).
• panny 7y ago
  I never thought in a million years I'd see the Silicon Valley bubble become so deranged that they'd reverse polarity. Watching HN eat their own liberal legends like Stallman, at the direction of Fox News and NY Post. This is truly astonishing.
  • thrower123 7y ago
    Chasing wokeness is eventually self-immolation. You can never be pure enough.
  • newnewpdro 7y ago
    I don't get the impression that the majority of HNers these days actually advocate for Free software. It's not like the GPL is the most popular license, my impression is that the FSF and GPL had its peak growth in the early 2000s. Nowadays most developers seem to prefer permissive licenses and distributing proprietary software for android/ios. They couldn't care less about RMS. Just look at how little response Purism Librem 5 update threads get on HN. They're practically dead, and this device is the only modernish GNU/GNOME/Linux smartphone to speak of.
  • cpach 7y ago
    Both RMS and ESR are nut jobs. There are other people who can be better ambassadors for FLOSS than they are.
    • eecc 7y ago
      I wonder if those thinking they could do a better job at “being FLOSS ambassadors” are taking their chance right now, using this moral panic to hoist themselves into the voids
    • DoreenMichele 7y ago
      Yeah, RMS is a "nut job" alright. RMS developed the free software movement at great personal cost because he so strongly believed in it that he was intermittently homeless while tilting at these windmills. Only a "nut job" would make a choice like that. Joan of Arc was also a "nut job." She was an illiterate teenaged girl who felt compelled by hearing voices to put an end to The Hundred Years War and play handmaiden to the birth of modern France. The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• ezoe 7y ago
  RMS's definition of pedophile doesn't include people who feel sexuall attraction on person who has puberty and is sexual maturity. I think that's a fair definition. He also argues that 17 years old has ability to consent. Since I'm from a country of consent age of 13 years, I agree. RMS don't encourage to violate the law, merely presenting the opinion. This opinion isn't blaming certain group like James Watson and his comment on race and intelligence. I guess some people aren't civil enough to discuss theoretical problems.
  • nikdaheratik 7y ago
    Except your opinion is as an anonymous person on the Internet, while his was the director of the FSF and a trusted member of an academic community in a public forum. He has to be willing to think about the people and organisations he represents before he opens his mouth and makes them look bad. If he isn't willing to do that, then he should get sacked.
    • ezoe 7y ago
      Now he no longer belong to MIT/FSF, he can enjoy his freedom of speech I guess. RMS is and always is consistent. He never bend his opinion and he throw out all the career if necessary for his freedom.
  • bad_user 7y ago
    What's being lost in the conversation is that the child in the the story was trafficked for sex. We are not talking just about sex with a 17 year old.
    • ezoe 7y ago
      So RMS called Epstein "serial rapist". He declined to call him "Pedophile" and that cause this outrage.
• wyldfire 7y ago
  RMS is indeed a visionary and deserves credit for the good works he's done in his life. He may also be a bad person. Or maybe he's a good person who shows extremely poor judgment. I don't really know much about the allegations so I won't defend him or persecute him. But this is a good move for FSF. RMS must have realized (or been made to realize) that he is now a net-negative contribution to FSF.
• leftyted 7y ago
  I never much liked Richard Stallman. But he's a freethinker, and freethinkers necessarily exist outside the mainstream. So, despite not liking him, I also don't like this turn of events. It does seem arbitrary to me that the same sexual encounter is classified as rape in Arizona and not rape in Virginia. I suppose we have to draw that line somewhere arbitrary. But I wonder if it was a mistake to classify what is called "statutory rape" as "rape" at all. We can make it illegal without calling it rape. That said, to me, this doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on. But then Stallman is not known for being picky about hills. People like him (or loathe him) because he's principled, and therefore no hill is too small.
  • flukus 7y ago
    > That said, to me, this doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on I don't think he saw it as a hill worth dying on, just a random hill he happened to be shot on. It's part of a random scattering of thoughts he makes public. Either way, I'm cancelling my FSF donations for caving into this witch hunt. It's long demise will be helmed by people that stand for nothing less they offend someone.
    • mgalgs 7y ago
      > Either way, I'm cancelling my FSF donations for caving into this witch hunt. If the FSF experiences a drop in donations couldn't they interpret that as people trying to distance themselves with Stallman, and he's basically synonymous with the FSF?
      • edoceo 7y ago
        If you leave/cancel tell them why, to remove ambiguity.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    • scrollaway 7y ago
      > I don't think he saw it as a hill worth dying on If you know Stallman at all, you know that he sees every single hill as a hill worth dying on. It's kinda the problem.
• Zardoz84 7y ago
  Related -> https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...
• js8 7y ago
  I am glad that people didn't force Chomsky to resign from MIT due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair. Freedom of speech means that people are free to defend what other people find morally objectionable. The idea that the "leaders" should be morally pure is understandable, but ultimately very elitist. It also reminds me of this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/neurodiversity-truth-telling/592465/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/neurodiver...
  • thundergolfer 7y ago
    The situation with Chomsky is not equivalent to this. Chomsky did not want Faurisson prosecuted by French law for his views. Chomsky did not himself express the bad views. Stallman here was the one expressing the bad views, so he is Faurisson not Chomsky.
    • js8 7y ago
      Like Chomsky, Stallman did nothing illegal or immoral himself, just with his speech defended somebody who (potentially) did an illegal/immoral thing. So if we consider "holocaust denial" to be the bad action (whether it is or not, that is for another discussion), then the analogy holds.
  • ptah 7y ago
    freedom of speech merely means the government can't act against you. it doesn't bind any other entity from responding freely: in fact their response is also freedom of speech
  • dtornabene 7y ago
    yeah, uh, these are not the same, at all. Chomsky did not do a holocaust denial, Chomsky isn't the one whose speech was under a microscope, he was the one standing up for the right do socially unpalatable scholarship (or whatever you call what Faurission was doing). And for the record, the Faurisson affair comes up all the time from people who hate chomsky and want to see him brought down in the world.
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• krick 7y ago
  I'm obviously late to the party and I have no idea what happened there and what are you talking about, so let me express my sincere condolences in case if this is another SJW victory or something, but more importantly: what did he do as a president and a member of board of directors of FSF anyways? I never quite understood what is it's actual real-world function for the last like 20 years.
• 2spicy_thrwaway 7y ago
  Question for those who think Stallman getting forced out is great news: There are people in this forum arguing that Stallman's statements weren't that bad. Should they be fired from their jobs? Yay for throwaway accounts, I guess.
  • ufo 7y ago
    The key issue at hand here is that people in leadership positions must be held to higher standards. Doubly so when they act as a very personal figurehead and spokespearson for the community they represent.
• kazinator 7y ago
  "Famed Lisp hacker and author of GCC resigns from Python kindergarten." About time, man!
• linsomniac 7y ago
  For those, like me, who missed the story behind this story... TL;DR: Richard Stallman has resigned from MIT and the FSF over comments he made defending Marvin Minsky "partying" with Epstein, and donations made to MIT. Joi Ito, the Media Lab director resigned over covering up the donations. Nicholas Negroponte "shocked" with his defense of these donations. Lawrence Lessig wrote about trying to rationalize the donations.
• jellicle 7y ago
  I think Stallman did great work with the FSF and GNU. I also think the FSF will be hugely better off without him around, and it's insane that it took this long.
• bitwize 7y ago
  Something about Minsky that seems to have gotten lost: Minsky appears to have turned Epstein's girl down, according to Gregory Benford: https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/ https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/
  • jacquesm 7y ago
    The deposition is rather ambiguous about this, it says she was sent there but not whether she did or did not have sex with Minsky. https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ZOEKwoBnDKUFI1hLbFJH5nsUFxrmNhs/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ZOEKwoBnDKUFI1hLbFJH5nsUFx... RMS did a very stupid thing here, by attempting to defend his friend as though he had had sex with her he cemented that picture in the minds of whoever reads his (RMS's) screed without questioning whether or not the event took place in the first place. It is a pity that the deposition does not allow one to resolve this once and for all. It speaks of her being directed to have sex with but fails to ask the follow up question (which I would think is very much material) of whether it actually happened in each of those cases. Pretty bad questioning.
• alexnewman 7y ago
  While we are throwing rms under the bus, can we also throw left wing philsophy away https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of...
• utopianeyes 7y ago
  Stallman is a revolutionary. In our dystopian times of surveillance capitalism, he has spent his life trying to fight for a utopian alternative. He is a hero and this reaction is completely unwarranted. The man is famously eccentric, but he is not evil. Posterity will not look kindly to these events.
• bythckr 7y ago
  What happened? This seems sudden.
• kube-system 7y ago
  Regardless of Stallman's opinions, whether perceived or actual (I couldn't care less about his non-tech commentary), his poor communication skills have long made him a subpar leader.
• throwaway180094 7y ago
  Nearly the entire world considers 17 legal [1], including most of the United States. To deny there is a room for a conversation about age of consent being arbitrary seems… really strange. [1]: https://philippineslifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/te3FQnP-960x436.png https://philippineslifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/te3FQnP-...
  • stevenjohns 7y ago
    The entire thing is odd. RMS is questioning the morality of the law and the people opposing him are quite literally, unironically, upset because they use the law to derive their morality[0]. More than that, their criticism is based on an intentional clickbait-tier misreading of what Stallman was saying. And after learning this, people are like "oh well, screw him anyway, he's a weirdo." This includes people like Neil McGovern, GNOME Executive Director, who used the opportunity to threaten that RMS leaves or GNOME leaves the FSF. Living in a country where the age of consent is 16, the oddest thing I find in all of this is that people can hold a straight face while saying that sleeping with a 17 year old constitutes pedophilia but seem to completely ignore that their country tries 13 year olds as adults[1] when they deem it fitting. [0] https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/73/Appeal-to-the-Law https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla... [1] https://oklahoman.com/article/5580060/13-year-old-boy-charged-with-first-degree-murder-in-deadly-crossbow-shooting https://oklahoman.com/article/5580060/13-year-old-boy-charge...
    • CathedralBorrow 7y ago
      That seems like a very definitive description on why you are right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. Do you allow any room for interpretation here?
• DoreenMichele 7y ago
  This is the end of an era, regardless of what you think about the events leading up to this point.
• chasing 7y ago
  What he said was stupid and disgusting. People sometimes over-estimate the amount of latitude the organization they work for will give them to do this. The technology industry is taking baby-steps towards actual inclusivity and diversity of thought -- and not this dumbass "I want to be free to say stupid offensive shit with impunity" flavor of "inclusivity" that people around here seem to champion. That is a Good Thing and organizations like MIT and the FSF need to be very careful about whom they let represent them. As far as I'm aware Stallman has neither been arrested nor has his website been torn down, so he's welcomed to continue to make whatever good and bad points he feels like and the rest of us are welcomed to judge him as we wish: smart, stupid, ignorable, or maybe even abhorrent to the point where maybe he shouldn't be representing a place like MIT. Or the FSF. It's a free country, after all.
  • raxxorrax 7y ago
    If your "inclusivity" stops at Stallman, it seriously lacks performance. You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. edit: Additionally, because I think this isn't obvious here, Stallman opened up the knowledge about software to the whole world and put energy in keeping it that way. Anyone was able to profit from this.
    • josteink 7y ago
      > You use the wrong word. What you desire is conformity. This seems to be a pretty common paradox. The people who promote "diversity" (and sometimes even diversity of thought!), never accept anyone who wants to debate the nuances of that concept, nor how that may best be implemented. Basically they demand conformity to the one "diverse" view and their definition of diversity. You're either with them or you're "part of the problem". You'd think at some point they would notice how they come off ass utterly hypocritical.
      • CathedralBorrow 7y ago
        ...and that seems to be a pretty common straw man. Who is "they"? Is this a self-selected group, or chosen by you? Am I maybe in it?
• salawat 7y ago
  You know, I keep seeing everyone saying getting rid of Stallman is a good thing for the FSF. For what it's worth, I think it is a tragedy. The man is an idealist who has stubbornly managed to hold on and thrive in a pragmatist's world. There are too many claims to which he is a shining counterexample to the assertion that "Nobody really does that!" So what if he's a bit of an odd duck? Show me a good programmer who doesn't have quirks! MIT is, in fact, famous for their tradition of living with, and embracing unconventional behavior, while still furthering the State-of-the-Art. The Free Software Foundation, which has accrued greater and greater entrenchment and influence by non-free software makers and projects alike has always owed to Stallman at least a degree of toleration and begrudging due considering the movement basically started with him last I checked. I read through the email chain in the Verge articles. It's enough even redacted to give me a solid enough basis from which to say there was nothing untoward about Stallman's posts. I got out of it a caution to read only into what was actually written down, and to avoid letting an unproven narrative whisk the entirety of a man's career away until all the facts were in. At a later point he even states he's read that poster's sources and was unable to locate any evidence conclusively saying that Minsky did anything against her knowingly, and if anything happened, while still being a crime, characterizing it as assault adds a layer of meaning to the accusation that is not immediately obvious from the presented evidence. He's even open to the possibility he hasn't seen something the emailed had, tried to find it, and asked if they'd be willing to send him a copy due to hos commitment to not trafficking services dependent on abusive practices. If that gets you foisted on the stake these days, I think the Spirit of Salem must be blowing through Massachusets, and it's discovered the fires of the Internet burn hotter than any mere log. I do not see a malicious intent or an attempt to defend/justify what may have happened to those women. Only an exhortation to not get ahead of what results the System has actually managed to discover as fact. As the last poster in the email thread the Verge decided to post mentions, as Scientists, we must ask those pesky inconvenient questions which seem to so stifle the actions and catharsis of following our passions, and seek only to know the truth. And from what I was able to read in the minutes I can dedicate,it is far from a sure thing, but misrepresentation off the character and context of the conversation has already spread like wildfire. I hesitate to even post this, because to be honest, if people can turn Stallman of all people into a Pariah over just those two emails, heavens above, I'm not sure there are many others behind the cause who can say as honestly to have practiced what they preach to the degrees he has. What chance do the rest of us have? That is exactly the type of chilling effect that this type of behavior and manufactured outrage, combined with the uncertainty of knowing from whence it may come is so adept at propagating. There is a point where hysteria, and the flames of the passions must stop. Ruining a person's life and reputation for anything more than what can be proven is one of them. That doesn't mean I'm trying to cover up harm, or protect pedophiles. It means I'm committed to the System, due process, and the tenets of rational scientific inquiry. It is not appropriate that any person should be hung by any segment of the population for endorsing letting the chips fall where they will, or asking to have more compelling physical evidence provided. The world post 1980 has seen more than anyone would like of wrongdoings not punished as thoroughly as they may needs be, but it is not in anyone's interest that the System be any looser in the Standard of Evidence to be met before officially taking action against someone. No one should want to let slip the Dogs of War in that regard, especially given the number of lives that have been given in ensuring a country existed where that was explicitly prevented at great effort from being possible. Good luck, Richard. I pray you and the movement survive this without irreparable damage...but I'm not even sure the damage isn't already done.
• voldacar 7y ago
  What exactly is the endgame of this outrage mob culture that tries to consume anyone who holds even a slightly unorthodox opinion?
• soulofmischief 7y ago
  It's funny how people flirt between law and objective morality depending on which further serves their argument. Controlling the language is key to controlling the discussion, and as usual Stallman just wanted to clarify the language. He's used to dealing with a more rational, less public crowd, and didn't realize he was poking a bed of hot coals. It's very sad to see such backlash and support of deplatformization of someone who has done so much for us over one cluster of comments. Even if you disagree with him, surely we can be allowed more than one mistake in the public eye before the platform we helped create is ripped from our hands. This is quite the authoritarian mindset and it worries me to find it in such prevalence here on Hacker News.
• markslicker 7y ago
  I'd much rather cancel Sarah Mei than Richard Stallman, but why do we have to cancel any one?
• Uhuhreally 7y ago
  my god the fragility of people who expect their free speech to be consequence-free
• mgalgs 7y ago
  From the email chain: > Looking through the article again reportedly points to the deposition itself. I visited that URL and got a blank window. It is on Google Drive, which demands running nonfree software in order to see it. See https://gnu.org/philos2phy/javascript-trap.html https://gnu.org/philos2phy/javascript-trap.html > > Would you (not anyone else!) like to email me a copy of the part that pertains to Minsky? say "not anyone else" to avoid getting 20 copies. Lol even in the middle of this discussion he sneaks some JavaScript hatred in there!
• solotronics 7y ago
  When will someone make a Licensing Agreement that strictly excludes the thought police. It's seriously ridiculous that anyone thinks it is important to criticize with a microscope every single thing someone says, some people think out loud it's called discourse. There are quotes from antiquity that it is the mark of someone truly wise who can seriously consider an idea and either accept it or reject it based on its merit, the point being if you can't even bring up something as a topic of conversation that is mentally handicapping yourself. People will seriously have to reconsider these arbitrary rules when every single word we all say is recorded from birth. That day is not far away. How Orwellian the situation we have built for ourselves.
• mkeedlinger 7y ago
  There are so many judgements on both sides, both in these comments and in the articles on the subject that have been submitted, but very little quoting of what he said in context. Where can I find what he said? Why is everyone talking about what he meant without quoting what he said so I can decide what makes sense for myself?
  • DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Vice has the full transcript and it's long, which is part of why people aren't quoting snippets. Quoting snippets is not better in this case than talking about what you think he meant. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... See also: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...
    • hn23 7y ago
      Thank you for the links. BTW: I am not sure why this question is down voted. At least here in Europe this was not real news so it was an honest questions. The FSF site did not explain the why.
      • DoreenMichele 7y ago
        It's politically sensitive. The lack of explanation was no doubt entirely intentional, so asking can be interpreted as a social faux pas.
  • ikeboy 7y ago
    https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...
  • methehack 7y ago
    I agree it's very confusing and to me sudden. Here are a couple of links to get you started anyway: vice article summary: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... which has a link to this blog post (which is somehow central): https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... Doesn't anyone sleep on anything any more?
• gigatexal 7y ago
  In a different universe he and his child bride and animal lover etc., could have been accepted just not in this one. That said: if he held those beliefs and ever acted on them, never raped, never engaged in pedophilia or had sex with a minor or a “willing” animal would it be so bad. He’d just be a crank like flat earthers, extremely religious people, bigots and racists and other fringe members of society what would have been the harm. I mean we went so long already accommodating him and his beliefs...
• xlii 7y ago
  I, as many others, never personally liked Dr. Stallman and didn’t agreed with many of his views. That being said, the way that that happened is absolutely terrifying. Fact, that people rather crucify someone instead of argue, explain or prove him wrong is the sign of our times. End of free speech is here. It’s free only if it doesn’t offend group powerful enough to destroy you, and it’s narrowing every single day. We’ve seen many instances of this happening both on personal, unpopular views and gossips and false accusations. Want to keep your career? Best you can do is to steer out of the social media and don’t share your thoughts with anyone. Not only controversial ones, because what might not be controversial now, might be controversial in 10 years, and you will suffer because of it.
  • roguecoder 7y ago
    “If you actively harass women at work for literally 30 years and do not stop any of the many, many times people to stop, and then also justify the sexual abuse of children as your job tries to distance itself from it’s collaboration with a know pedophile you might lose your job” doesn’t seem like it’s going to be a situation that will ever be relevant to my life, thank.
    • w323898 7y ago
      I too am very disturbed by the historic records of Stallman's bad behavior. Was he ever forced to take sensitivity training or anything, or did everyone just ignore it?
      • fatbird 7y ago
        Everyone put plants in their office to passive aggressively shield themselves, because RMS hates plants.
        • robocat 7y ago
          That's pretty much straight from encyclopediadramatica (except they refer to a particular plant) or second-hand (starsandrobots). The rumour would be more poetic if it said he liked plants, and that he feigned having a phobia to get people to have office plants. Edit: removed unintentional copy pasta.
• pugworthy 7y ago
  This post is nothing but trouble
• rrss 7y ago
  Eh, stallman's career was basically always about pontificating from his moral high ground. Makes a lot of sense to me for him to step off the pulpit when he expresses himself so poorly, has so many people complaining about his super-cringe behavior towards women for the last 3 decades, and becomes infamous as the "is it really ok to refer to statutory rape as 'assault', or does that give people the wrong idea" guy.
• gomijacogeo 7y ago
  I guess it's ok to update the abort() documentation now.
• w323898 7y ago
  I don't know what the correct standard is for an organizational leader when it comes to this stuff, but I don't understand why they need to inflate Stallman saying "presented herself as entirely willing" to him saying she was "entirely willing".
• eecc 7y ago
  I’m not so sure ambitious competitors aren’t riding moral panics and polarized reactions to get rid of incumbents and take their place. The road to hell is paved with good intentions...
• paggle 7y ago
  So did Stallman just assume that the Minsky allegation is true? Does he know something we don’t or is he just jumping to conclusions?
• newnewpdro 7y ago
  I think this is an awful way for the life's work of someone as dedicated and impactful as Richard's to come to an end. It's an utterly disproportionate consequence for Richard's missteps which amount to nothing more than a discussion in a mailing list.
• cpach 7y ago
  This is definitely not the first time RMS has made damage to the free software movement by saying stupid things.
• radres 7y ago
  I am sad to see the top comments on HN are whining about free speech. The guy is sick. I am glad he is kicked out.
• nabla9 7y ago
  RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely socially incompetent man who makes super creepy attempts to connect opposite sex. I have worked in jobs where there have been very strange creepy people, both women and men. Some are angry and tense. Some are odd and talk restless or slightly disturbing stuff that make everyone uncomfortable. But if they do their work well they can stay. Others give them some room. It's called tolerance. If RMS was just random superhacker doing his thing. I would defend him. His boss should find a position for him where he can contribute and other people should feel free to feel uncomfortable and avoid him. But RMS is de facto leader and public figure in movement that is also political. He does not deserve the same level of consideration as normal HR headache would. Even if everything against him would be completely unjust, there is no requirement for just treatment for top leaders. They can be sacked for any reason whatsoever.
  • mnm1 7y ago
    This is ridiculous in a culture that elected and continues to support an accused rapist to its highest office. If the highest office in the nation (and many others) can have such a scumbag without him being forced to resign, how can we expect someone in Stallman's position to be perfect and PC with his speech so idiots don't misunderstand his direct style of speech? Such hypocrisy, such bullshit, this argument is.
    • pjc50 7y ago
      The President "should" also be forced to resign, but the power politics does not support that for a whole host of reasons. It's extraordinary to watch "Christian" evangelical moralists defend him, but in some ways that's the logical conclusion of their moral contortions.
      • AnnoyingSwede 7y ago
• pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
  The new FSF implant president will no doubt have ties to the global intelligence community, and ensure terror can be appropriately monitored.
• PaulRobinson 7y ago
  Anybody who has spent time around RMS knows there are problematic behaviours in almost every interaction. This is not just about this one incident, but this one incident where he defends "voluntary pedophilia" was obviously the last straw. I've met him a few times, put him up on my sofa once. I'd say almost every 15-30 minutes in his presence I would stop myself from saying "that's not an appropriate way to behave" or "please don't say that in that way, you're being rude", for fear of insulting him. Perhaps if more people had done that rather than being in awe and reverence (and there are many people who treat him that way), or just looking for a quiet life (my excuse), we wouldn't be here now. It is clear to me that he has very low EQ or at least empathy for other people. I have spoken to others who have interacted with him who have suggested he might be on the autistic spectrum, and whilst I am not qualified to make a diagnosis, should such a diagnosis be made it would not surprise me. At the weekend whilst this was blowing up I suggested he needed help. I think he is genuinely completely unaware why any of these statements would cause others to question his values. Freedom of speech is not a right to be a jerk, and he is unaware that he is seen as a jerk by a lot of people because of the many things he has said and done over many years. It seems there are many people here who likewise are blind-sided as to why suggesting an underage girl would be entirely willing to have sex with an adult and presented herself willingly would be nothing more than a 'controversial opinion'. There are also people who think this is the only thing he's done that has caused problems - it's not. I think there are deeper issues at play here, and he would benefit from counselling or therapy of some sort. Most people could even without his behaviour, so I'm definitely going to suggest it would be useful in his case. At a minimum it would help him navigate having a huge chunk of his life disappear over the last 24 hours. I wish him well, but like almost every ex-colleague of his I've spoken to or who has been outspoken on social media about this: the FSF and MIT/CSAIL will now be a better place to be for others, and I hope that RMS gets the help he has needed for a long time. I wish him well, but I also know that a large number of people will breathe a sigh of relief now that they can go about their work and studies without having to navigate him.
  • ars 7y ago
    From your description and other things I'm reading here, I somewhat expect him to commit suicide. His work life is over, and he doesn't seem the type to be able to transition to anything else. He'll write a letter saying: "I've done everything I intended, and can do nothing further." RMS: If you are reading this: I highly suggest you throw yourself into a major programming project. Something you've been trying to finish for years, but never had time.
• Fej 7y ago
  The man is 66. Regardless of the circumstances, it is probably a good time for him to retire. The FSF could use a shakeup.
• paxys 7y ago
  People going on about how he made some harmless comments which have been misrepresented have no clue about how toxic RMS has been for decades. The latest comments (especially coming while the nation is still reeling from the Epstein affair) are the absolute tip of the iceberg. He has been openly sexually harassing female staff and students for a long time now, and has been tolerated or enabled by other powerful figures. Getting booted from his positions was a matter of when, not if.
  • dijit 7y ago
    Citation needed. Not saying it is or is not true. But these are powerful claims to be marking with no sources.
    • paxys 7y ago
      Lots of citations at https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...
      • dijit 7y ago
        I read the "citations" and I was left feeling a little skeptical, added to the fact that the daily beast is not considered by many to be a credible news outlet. Regardless; The tone of this article itself uses such emotive words that I would struggle not to define it as a hit-piece. it seems I'm not alone in my assertion: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/_/f0l50w4/?context=2 https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/d5a4dz/_/f0l50w4/?co...
        • CathedralBorrow 7y ago
          "Citation please" "Here's an article" "I'm skeptical. Also lots of people don't like that messenger. And I don't like the tone of the article. Also I found someone who agrees with me." Would you care to address the points raised in the article rather than dismissing it because you don't like the source?
• godelmachine 7y ago
  Would anyone please care to explain why did Mr Stallman resign?
  • scoobyyabbadoo 7y ago
    Mr Stallman said in an email that Marvin Minsky probably wasn't a rapist.
• dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
  It's mind boggling. What the media says is a terrible misrepresentation. What he actually wrote can be found here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420... Someone tried to intimidate him saying this exchange will be leaked to the press. Stallman answered people at MIT should seek the truth without being afraid. What sad times we live in! First Linus, now Stallman...
• trax 7y ago
  I can't wait for China to wipe out the US.
• zenhack 7y ago
  One thing a lot of folks are missing is that this was not an isolated incident; the fact that this is the straw that broke the camel's back isnt' that important in the grand scheme of things. I made the same point in more detail in the comments for the article about his MIT resignation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20990574
• enriquto 7y ago
  If you read the infamous CSAIL thread you'll probably see that there's nothing wrong with it. This is a rather tame argument between civilized people. I'm very sad that they got him for this ridiculous thing.
• roguecoder 7y ago
  It is very clear that many people are here to defend statutory rape or recite talking points from Reddit. The thing is, you couldn’t be around OSS for more than a month without tripping over Stallman harassing women or producing a six-page rider or yelling at parents on mailing lists for having children. This wasn’t a sudden or unexpected event: this is a troll finally discovering the boundaries of what the community would tolerate.
• regardless9394 7y ago
  Stallman puts himself up for scrutiny by being in the public eye. I may agree with his political positions regarding free software, but his talents are otherwise rather run of the mill at this point. This is the free market. Thanks for your contributions. But you’ve since lost first mover advantage.
• dlitz 7y ago
  I don't believe rms is seriously in favor of child sexual exploitation, but that's a red herring. The concern for me is has been the accounts of far more directly-relevant behaviour, such as (iirc): * repeated phone calls to someone from different phone numbers * leering * breaking the ground rules for an event, and justifying it on the basis that he's personally exempt from any rules * singling out a teenage girl attending one of his talks (as in "oh wow, a GIRL") * single her out again while telling his questionable 'EMACS virgins' joke * saying in an interview that he didn't know any women who have contributed to GCC, when there had been at least 4 It all adds up to several accounts of people saying they've left the free software movement (or avoided it entirely) because of his behaviour combined with his stature. As a community leader who supposedly leads by example, he needs to do better, and if he doesn't, the community needs to hold him accountable. That's happening now. Personally, I think this is a good thing, and I'm glad that he's made the decision to step aside (even if under pressure) rather than fight bitterly and see the community divide along these lines. It also seems like a good opportunity for him to pass the torch and see what happens, or at least take a long hiatus to get some caring advice and to sort himself out, like Linus did last year. The FSF will eventually need to become an institution that can carry on its mission without him, and this will be a good test of that. If things go off the rails, he can pen another manifesto and I'm sure a bunch of us will read it.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
• qbaqbaqba 7y ago
  Another victim of a twitter lynching mob.
• jacquesm 7y ago
  RMS is a fool. He should have kept his mouth shut because he is one of the least qualified people to speak on this subject, given his own admission of having problems relating to others in an empathic way and his previous very insensitive comments on adults having sex with minors. On top of that he does Minsky a huge disservice: Minsky can't defend himself anymore and RMS has now made a direct connection between Minsky and having sex with underage girls when in fact this may never have happened at all. The deposition is unfortunately ambiguous about this fact: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ZOEKwoBnDKUFI1hLbFJH5nsUFxrmNhs/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/14ZOEKwoBnDKUFI1hLbFJH5nsUFx... Page 204, the question is 'Where did you go to have sex with Marvin Minsky?'; then further down that Ghislaine Maxwell directed her to have sex with him but crucially never asks her whether or not it actually happened, and at least one person is on record that Minsky turned her down: https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/ https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/
• HugoDaniel 7y ago
  I have no opinion on Stallman, he could very well be that awful person. The twitter discussion[0] seemed to me to be very polarized and targeting rage with all the common traits of typical fake news/mass hysteria communication. Maybe it is just the way these things naturally come to daylight. [0] https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1172283772428906496 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1172283772428906496
  • dtornabene 7y ago
    totally good faith dynamic there, calling it fake news/mass hysteria. great stuff man, real contribution to the conversation. G-d forbid other people be pissed about this.
    • HugoDaniel 7y ago
      What are you trying to do here ? Can you be constructive please ? If you read carefully you might notice that I said it "shares common traits with". Because it does.
  • Phelinofist 7y ago
    This Twitter thread is just insane
• dexen 7y ago
  Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold contributions above outraged crowd's size. -- [1] "Stallman was right", countless comments here on HN, on LWN, and all over the internet [2] "Why Hackers Must Eject the SJWs", http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6918 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
  • sascha_sl 7y ago
    not everything is a psyop, sometimes people just want idiots to stop their toxic bs
  • scalanewaccount 7y ago
    How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you practices as long as Trump is the guy on the other side. No proofs, no actual statements, just CNN soundbytes and orange man bad, impich nao. Remember you reap what you sow.
    • sascha_sl 7y ago
      >How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this? How did you manage to make this about trump what the fuck
    • dexen 7y ago
      >How on earth did you manager to fit Microsoft into this Good point. I intended it merely as emphasis to the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish point, but apparently it ended up being more of a red herring...? I'll take extra care the next time. >Also, this outrage culture is exactly what everyone here including you Don't worry, this forum isn't entirely a single-minded and single-channel tribe. Albeit let's not detract further with risky subjects, shall we? :-)
• lazyjones 7y ago
  Could someone please make a comprehensive list of the people and media accusing him of misconduct? It's time to start keeping track of them and being aware of their toxic characters every time we're dealing with them in some way. First on the list: This guy: https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relationship-gnu-fsf/ https://blog.halon.org.uk/2019/09/gnome-foundation-relations...
• Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago
  That's depressing news. As is the fact that your have to overcome a sense of hesitation when disagreeing with internet mob tribunals.
• antisemiotic 7y ago
  Stallman's career of relentlessly pissing upwind is ended by a disagreement on the implications of the phrase "presented to". A weird time to be alive.
• marble-drink 7y ago
  I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight for free software. I wish somebody would have simply advised him not to speak on such matters because nothing good could become of it. Maybe he needed a PR manager. That sounds awful, but apparently this is what the world wants: carefully filtered speech that doesn't stray far from what people already agree with.
  • gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
    > I wish somebody would have simply advised him not to speak on such matters because nothing good could become of it. Maybe he needed a PR manager. That sounds awful, but apparently this is what the world wants: carefully filtered speech that doesn't stray far from what people already agree with. The world needs everyone to speak about every topic. If we all self censor then only the extremists will be speaking.
    • al_form2000 7y ago
      And everybody can speak about anything. As long as they don't care being hounded by the neo-puritan prudes and lose job, career, social standing.
    • brnt 7y ago
      > The world needs everyone to speak about every topic. If we all self censor then only the extremists will be speaking. Thinking in extremes (we all self-censor or everyone speaks out on every topic) is the first step towards extremism. There is a middle ground. Our curse is being unable to pin it down, while forever having to search for it. Democracy is hard. And it should be. Easy solutions are not going to be democratic.
    • lazyjones 7y ago
      > but apparently this is what the world wants: carefully filtered speech that doesn't stray far from what people already agree with. Let's never forget that famous G.B. Shaw quotation, always appropriate in such situations. http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/692.html http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/692.html I don't want to live in a world where everyone has to take great care all the time to fulfil the FotM expectations of certain noisy people who believe they're a majority.
• kstenerud 7y ago
  It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. This is completely backwards, anti-democratic, and anti-freedom. It brings a chilling effect on everyone, because suddenly people start to realize that they're living under the Sword of Damocles, which could destroy them at any moment without warning. You can never be sure if something you say or do is going to get you publicly pilloried in future, and destroy your career, friendships, and reputation in the blink of an eye. Far better to just sit quiet and never say anything that might offend someone. Far better not to participate at all. Mob justice always turns ugly in the end. That's why we have courts.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • scoopertrooper 7y ago
    The guy has a long history endorsing pedophillia. Is it so hard to not endorse pedophilla? Can't that just be the one thing everybody agrees on?
    • nojvek 7y ago
      Do you have citing for this? Very easy to make a wide claim like this and go on a witch hunt. I don’t know the guy but that’s a big accusation.
      • progval 7y ago
        https://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html#25%20May%202003%20() https://stallman.org/archives/2003-may-aug.html#25%20May%202... (second item at that date) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%20... http://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2013_%28Pedophilia%29 http://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_20...
• al_form2000 7y ago
  Nathaniel Hawthorn raising.
• SllX 7y ago
  So long and thanks for all the code! To be blunt, I’m not sure the FSF is worth having without someone as stubborn as RMS at the helm, but with any luck, they can still do a proper job of maintaining his legacy. Increasingly I find Stallman was right, and I hope he will continue to publicly do what he can to advance free software.
• JulianMorrison 7y ago
  Some people here seem to need it explained why RMS's comments were wrong. - Minsky is accused, by a credible victim of a non-credible, convicted pedophile, of receiving sexual contact with a woman who was underage at the time, and who was dispatched to him as part of her employment. - RMS says the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to Minsky as entirely willing. He also says that the difference between 17 and 18 is a minor detail and it's an injustice to refer to it as a sexual assault. - RMS fails to understand that an adult with a teenager is unacceptable creeping due to the imbalance of power in several different ways, in this context he's right that 17/18 is a minor detail because both are unacceptable. But 17 is also illegal. What if he didn't know she was 17? Irrelevant because he surely knew she was a very young woman, and by implication relished the power imbalance rather than properly backing away. In fact, Minsky should never have accepted friendship with Epstein who was clearly creeping on teenagers in a completely overt way. And RMS shouldn't be defending it. - RMS also fails to understand how the employer-employee relationship compounds this with yet another axis of undue power, and how these together make the presentation of being "entirely willing" impossible to tell apart from having no choice. This impossibility is why age of consent laws exist even though teenagers can speak and express their opinion. They don't have the structural power to speak freely. To be honest, 18-year-olds don't either. When someone has sexual contact with someone who has no power to say no, that's sexual assault, or it's rape. - By taking the side of a man he knows, who was doing wrong, over a woman who was vulnerable, and by brushing off the implied possibility of coercion, RMS shows that he is part of the systemic problem of sexist, exploiter-friendly men in tech which the Epstein scandal has uncovered.
  • UserIsUnused 7y ago
    He doesn't understands power relations because he ignores them. He doesn't bend, which makes him a general outsider of society, but he expect other to act in the same manner, of not bending, because he doesn't understand social ties. There are various few occasions that you see RMS bending. Like plane travels (which require IDs), that he just does when he needs to cross oceans. So to him, a person that dd something because of a power relation with an employer is just weird.
    • 7y ago
• nec4b 7y ago
  Revolution devours its children.[Jacques Mallet du Pan]
• hn23 7y ago
  What did he do? Forgive me, I am not on Twitter et.al.
  • DoreenMichele 7y ago
    He said some socially unpalatable things. Some woman decided he should be "removed" because of it. Somehow, she got her way it seems. Some sources with the backstory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20991756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20991756
• cujo 7y ago
  So the next time someone does something bad, and a group of people rally to support them despite it being obviously bad, we should all look back to this thread. RMS is a figure in the hacker/tech community so the hacker/tech community has done most of the excusing for his behavior. It's sad. There's room for argument in how much backlash he should receive, but if you're arguing that what said is fine, I would argue that you may be fooling yourself. Consider some public figure you dislike (politician, celebrity, etc). Now pretend that person said these things. Would you be so forgiving? Maybe you would. But if you find the answer to be no, then you're just protecting your own. Quit that.
• thrownaway954 7y ago
  And this is why you NEVER get politically involved in anything and learn to keep your political comments to yourself. Nothing good was going to come of this no more how he put it. Bottom line is he should have just kept his mouth shut.
• sporge 7y ago
  You fuckin Stallman apologists would forgive him for stabbing his mother. Resign yourselves to hell. Stallman will make you good company.
• jzymbaluk 7y ago
  I'm pretty damn disappointed with the discourse here. What RMS wrote in the MIT mailing list was so reprehensible, that I'm pretty sure the people here defending him must have not read it. So here is the comments he wrote to a major MIT mailing list where he victim-blames child sex trafficking victims in the wake of MIT media lab accepting money from credibly accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein: > The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: > “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” > The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault”is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X. > The accusation quoted is a clear example of inflation. The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem. (See https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jeffrey-epstein-sex-trafficking-island-court-records-unsealed. https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...) Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). > The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex. > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. > I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation. > Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you should describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism. You can (and we must) acknowledge Stallman's contributions to the field while not condoning his pattern of bad behavior. because if we let a leading figure in the industry act this way publicly, it reflects bad on all of us. We cannot claim to be an industry that accepts and welcomes diverse viewpoints and experiences while still holding up a man who has such a long laundry list of reprehensible behavior as a leader and respected figure in the industry.
  • mtrower 7y ago
    No, you just have a wildly differing opinion from the people you speak of (well, most of them, anyway... there does seem to be more than one crowd of defenders). It goes both ways - Stallman's words seem pretty accurate to me, and it's totally alien to me that you would find them reprehensible. In particular, I cannot understand how you came to the conclusion that he "victim-blames" Giuffre - even though he writes that she "was being coerced into sex" and "She was harmed".
• chj 7y ago
  All this happens because he tried to make his friend look less bad, in a situation that most people will try to keep a good distance. Things we take for granted today wouldn't exist without this man. To name just one thing, gcc. Yet people are more eager to punish him for what he said than to praise him for what he did.
• yosefzeev 7y ago
  There is no defending Epstein. Though I think Stallman has made many valuable contributions to free software, I think he has fallen on his sword on this one for no good reason.
  • meijer 7y ago
    He did not defend Epstein.
• dandare 7y ago
  From Vice.com: Early in the thread, Stallman insists that the “most plausible scenario” is that Epstein’s underage victims were “entirely willing” while being trafficked. Stallman goes on to argue about the definition of “sexual assault,” “rape,” and whether they apply to Minsky and Giuffre’s deposition statement that she was forced to have sex with him. In response to a student pointing out that Giuffre was 17 when she was forced to have sex with Minsky in the Virgin Islands, Stallman said “it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.” >>Giuffre was 17 at the time; this makes it in the Virgin Islands. >Does it really? I think it is morally absurd to define "rape" in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17'. >I think the existence of a dispute about that supports my point that the term "sexual assault" is slippery, so we ought to use more concrete terms when accusing anyone. https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci...
• deleted 7y ago
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• squarefoot 7y ago
  I wonder why on Earth did RMS embark in such a dangerous discussion. In modern times talking about those topics is just like Wile E. Coyote throwing a dozen boomerangs at the roadrunner thinking he won't be hit back by some of them. He should have thought carefully about that: no matter if one is right or wrong, talking about that stuff in public will expose an individual to remotely controllable public anger in a way that will harm all other good stuff he does through ad-hominem attacks ("he has such opinions about rape, therefore his software sucks as do his licensing model and his opinions on closed source"). I for one still think he's a kind of good extremist the IT world badly needs, I agree at least on principle with most of his ideas and recall listening to him at a conference then handshaking him about two decades ago. Still... yeah, it was stupid from him to comment on such sensitive topics; this could harm the Free Software world in many ways, regardless of him being right or wrong, and probably someone will attempt to use that weapon.
• dangerface 7y ago
  The blog[0] that started it is a disgrace, the only value they act on is spite. The movement they claim owner ship should reject any association with them, I do. > our movement will only be successful if it includes everyone. With these as our values and goals > We call for Stallman to step down [0] https://sfconservancy.org/news/2019/sep/16/rms-does-not-speak-for-us/ https://sfconservancy.org/news/2019/sep/16/rms-does-not-spea...
• ohiovr 7y ago
  Well that is news to me. Other than that I offer nothing else.
• YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
  I move that we flag and bury this thread now. It's choke-full of flames and it has the highest level of personally abusive comments I've seen in the last few months on HN. It's getting like reddit in here. I just don't think we can discuss this issue sensibly, even on HN.
• markslicker 7y ago
  My other comment was censored, I just strongly disagree with the cancel culture that led to Stallman's resignation. The person Sarah Mei seems to be leading this fight against Stallman even going so far as renouncing the concept of free software and the GPL because of the association with Stallman. This is entirely wrongheaded, you can agree with the concept of free software and the GPL and disagree with the political views of Stallman. Personally I don't agree with Stallman's political views but he is right on the issues of software freedom and without that I don't think we would be where we are today, having legally protected operating systems, compilers and so forth free for anyone to use, study, or improve upon.
• lanevorockz 7y ago
  Activists Ruins yet another thing, will there be anything left in the world once the Mao Moral Police arrests everyone ?
• reuven 7y ago
  People seem to be saying a variety of things about RMS: He's a genius, so let him be. He doesn't understand interpersonal communication. He didn't say the things people thought he said. People are too quick to judge. And so forth. I was there, about 20 years ago, when he sent e-mail urging all free-software advocates to protest a bill under consideration in the US Congress. I asked him if he had read the bill. "No," he said, "I don't surf the Web." I saw that as a huge cop-out; how could someone claim any moral or leadership authority when he called for protests and a letter-writing campaign on a subject he didn't know about first hand? It's certainly true that RMS has been remarkably consistent over the 30 years or so in which I've interacted with him -- starting when I was a reporter for the MIT student newspaper, and then maintained the Emacs FAQ, and then wrote for Linux Journal. (No, not GNU/Linux Journal. Sheesh.) He's an extremist. He's a purist. He indeed doesn't get the nuances of interpersonal communication. But you know what? You can't both lead an organization and be tone deaf to people. You can't be a public figure, demanding respect, and then show such disrespect to others. You can't expect that people will pay attention to what you say when you have so little respect for what they say. Stallman has long been difficult, obstinate, and rude to people in general -- and a general drag on the cause of open-source (or "free") software. But I had no idea that he was known to be so terrible to women. But even if he had treated women well -- which doesn't seem to be the case -- it's pretty hard to imagine anyone, anywhere defending Jeffrey Epstein in any way, shape, or form. The guy was terrible, did horrible things, abused a huge number of women, and amassed wealth and power in the most disgusting ways possible. To defend Epstein, or the people who were associated with him, is unacceptable. Again: You want to defend Epstein in your own personal life? Go for it; you won't have many friends or colleagues afterwards, but that's up to you. But if you do it as the public face of a well-known activist organization? You can't possibly stick around there. Good riddance.
  • ubermonkey 7y ago
    I'm very glad to read this here. I'm sorry it's so far down the page. RMS achieved a sort of secular saintly status early on, and as a result has been excused from developing any sort of interpersonal skills or, apparently, human decency for most of his adult life. Now we say he identifies as autistic, like this excuses it, but in the absence of an actual diagnosis (and maybe even WITH one), it feels like a cop out. It's well past time to accept that rms may well have damaged the FOSS movement with his behavior as much as he's helped it in recent years. The free & open software world can do better. It deserves better. We ought to demand it. Moving on from rms is a great first step.
• deleted 7y ago
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• peternicky 7y ago
  I am lost for words...angry and frustrated that this has happened. There have been dozens of things RMS has said in the past that I disagreed with and at the end of the day, I always had (and still have) the highest amount of respect for that man. He is the definition of "harmless as a fly". Found the word I was looking for: DISGUSTED.
• colechristensen 7y ago
  RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildly inappropriate in an MIT forum and got fired. He deserved it. Defending him by pointing towards people who overreact to things is a bit terrible. The firing was appropriate and reasonable, not a response to extremists, zealots, or some other kind of witch. I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument.
  • lostjohnny 7y ago
    > RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. That's not what happened.
    • colechristensen 7y ago
      RMS defending his friend was happening Minsky was accused, and those are the details. It doesn't matter if it didn't happen, RMS was defending Minsky in the situation that it did by saying the girl who was less than a quarter of his age would have appeared willing. That gets you fired. Even if it is entirely hypothetical.
      • NhanH 7y ago
        I don't see it as RMS defending his friend. He was purely concerned with making the correct accusation. Some people considers that as "defending", which might have never been his intention. Why would he be concerned with such details if not for defending Minsky? He is weird, and pendatic. But that we knew for a long time.
        • xwolfi 7y ago
          He's insufferable, you mean. They don't give a rat's ass what he actually said or thought, they wanted him out for so long they couldn't believe their luck he decided to publicly redefine the morality of statutory rape on a corporate mailing list. Some people do software, like Linus Torvalds, other linger for decades doing nothing and discuss the value of rape. Hope we'll hear less of his nonsense in the future.
• lanevorockz 7y ago
  They rather just close the FSF, nobody will care once Stallman is gone. Maybe all this fake outrage is nothing more than large companies trying to end open source.
• viivaux 7y ago
  This forum is absolutely fucking infested.
• syrrim 7y ago
  Email chain is here: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...
• Guthur 7y ago
  Anyone who has actually read the email thread and considers it a defence of sexual assault, the topic of the thread, is as intellectually bankrupt as the media witch hunts rms was warning about and fell victim to. We should be all concerned that media witch hunts like this can in act such results. It is abhorrent that any discussion that triggers a progressive dominated media can destroy people's lives.
  • colechristensen 7y ago
    I read it. There was some irrelevant quibbling about how accusations are worded. Then there was the speculation that the seventeen year old girl who is accusing his 73 year old friend of a sex crime would have appeared willing in the exchange with the implication that this apparent willingness made the situation not Minsky's fault. Doesn't matter if it didn't happen, defending statutory rape like that is really inappropriate, and with a ~60 year ago gap it doesn't really matter about the details. It was a very creepy situation and indefensible. Stallman was defending it, it wasn't just some intellectual problem with the wording of accusations. Not a witch hunt, not a victimization of an innocent intellectually curious man, it was a measured and reasonable response to a very inappropriate conversation.
    • dropit_sphere 7y ago
      >, defending statutory rape like that is really inappropriate See, the thing about statutory rape is that it is illegal, and sexual assault is also illegal, but (surprisingly!) that does not mean that they are the same thing. (It is left as an exercise for the reader to see if this applies to other pairings like, say, "public drunkenness" and "murder in the first degree.") Stallman was not "defending statutory rape": he was saying, "Words mean things, and the words "sexual assault" suggest an image of 75-yr-old Marvin holding girls down and raping them, and that it is unlikely that that, you know, actually happened." >It was a very creepy situation and indefensible. Oooh, so creepy! Too creepy to think about, even! Nazis were pretty creepy: let's accuse them of violating the CFAA, before there were computers! Anyone defending them against this is defending Nazis, and worse, creepy Nazis! They are likely creepy as well! This creepy stuff seems to be contagious... Since it can't be made too visible, Stallman's actual comments: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...
• vasili111 7y ago
  Can anyone please share original link that Stallman wrote?
  • mtrower 7y ago
    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/09132019142056-0001.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/091320191... Start at the bottom.
• jarek-foksa 7y ago
  It's worth mentioning that Stallman was appearing on Russia Today on a regular basis, usually to support the Russian narrative rather than to advocate the Free Software. If you are shilling for foreign oligarchs, expect the US disinformation machine to be used against you.
• mikeash 7y ago
  Tech bros: “I wonder why tech is so disproportionately male. Must be something biological.” Also tech bros: “I can’t believe RMS got forced out just for going on a crazy rant about rape on a CS mailing list. Why, any one of us could be next!”
  • balaksakrionon 7y ago
    The "tech bros" trope is getting quite tired; it would be more constructive to avoid such generalizations and stereotypes
    • mikeash 7y ago
      I think it’s quite appropriate in this context, where tons of them come out of the woodwork to defend this bullshit.
• deleted 7y ago
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• tboyd47 7y ago
  Can anyone please provide context on this? Why did RMS feel the need to personally step in and weigh in on the Minsky allegations? Was it indeed just carelessness on his behalf, as many are speculating? Or were his comments part of another conversation inside the FSF that has not been made public? I've read the email chain that's been circulated but it does not go back far enough. It's the "comments about comments" discussion.
  • sneak 7y ago
    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... actual source email thread embedded at the bottom of the vice article
    • tboyd47 7y ago
      I'm re-reading it now. Maybe I'm just not able to follow the text-based email chain format, but it doesn't seem to include RMS's original email with his comments except quoted as part of another email, which leads me to think that part of the conversation is being covered up. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
      • sneak 7y ago
        His original emails are there in the embed, in full.
        • tboyd47 7y ago
          How do you know it is "in full" if all you have seen is the embedded quote?
          • sneak 7y ago
            I mean the embedded frame. It contains the full original emails from Stallman, not just quotes. Keep scrolling.
• deleted 7y ago
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• deleted 7y ago
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• t0astbread 7y ago
  Regardless of whether it was right to ditch Stallman as the president of the FSF, here's my "wishlist" for his successor (in case they don't revert it): - Someone who is less of a hardliner: Stallman's dedication to free software is a good thing but his absolutist style of expressing it might have put a lot of people off who would otherwise not be opposed to the idea of free software - Someone who understands the problems of free/open source software (contributors not getting paid, corporate exploitation, ...) and has progressive solutions for it - Someone who everyone can (at least kinda) sympathize with and/or relate to: I believe Stallman generally has no bad intent but a lot of his mannerisms are just plain awkward or offensive to a lot of people. Normally that wouldn't matter but the president of the FSF (especially Stallman) is kinda "the face of free software". So showing that the world of free software is a progressive and inclusive space here might just benefit everyone. We should still honor Stallman for what he did for free software (I mean he basically invented it) and we should IMO continue to welcome him in this space (maybe even as some kind of executive in the FSF because after all he's obviously not incompetent). But maybe he isn't the best person for the role of the president anymore these days.
  • tombert 7y ago
    I agree with your second two points 100%, though not with the first at all. I think that Stallman's hardliner stance, while it has scared away a lot of people, has also been a good thing in a lot of regards; if nothing else, it shows that there is a position to be had in the extreme copyleft.
    • t0astbread 7y ago
      Understandable. My line of thought was that free software could, in some places where it's not big yet, win in the long term if the FSF stopped judging devs/makers of non-free software. (And instead maybe acknowledged that it's hard to develop free software in that field under the current circumstances to raise awareness.)
      • tombert 7y ago
        In a bit of fairness, I actually emailed Stallman about this a couple years ago and he's a bit more nuanced if you press him on individual things. For example, I asked him about an app that I was working on, where we were doing things with a BSD license (since the thing we released was proprietary but the core was open-source), and he suggested that we instead re-license it as GPL but with an proprietary exception for only our app.
• rpmisms 7y ago
  This is a sad day for the FSF. Yes, he's got bad opinions, but he's also done an incredible amount to serve the Free-as-in-Freedom community. He's a Great Man, but not necessarily a good one.
• erikrothoff 7y ago
  I just want to say that I’m glad consequences are coming to people who behave badly. We can’t as a community or profession let these people dictate the tone for the rest of us.
• speeder 7y ago
  I would like to point out that the court documents have written on them: A woman, testified that Epstein told her to offer sex to Minsky. What it DIDN'T said: That Minsky accepted the offer. Also there are a witness (someone that was present, Greg Benford) that claims that Minsky didn't accepted the offer.
• atomashpolskiy 7y ago
  > At least Richard Stallman is not accused of raping anyone. But is that our highest standard? The standard that this prestigious institution holds itself to? If this is what MIT wants to defend; if this is what MIT wants to stand for, then, yes, burn it to the ground… …Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. Salem, Robotics student who started Remove Stallman campaign If this isn't literally "revolution [of free speech and thought in cyberspace] devouring its' children", then I don't know, what it is.
• lostjohnny 7y ago
  This is one of those cases where Reddit > HN "Context: In a recently unsealed deposition a woman testified that, at the age of 17, Epstein told her to have sex with Marvin Minsky. Minsky was a founder of the MIT Media Lab and pioneer in A.I. who died in 2016. Stallman argued on a mailing list (in response to a statement from a protest organizer accusing Minsky of sexual assault) that, while he condemned Epstein, Minsky likely did not know she was being coerced: > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. Some SJW responded by writing a Medium post called "Remove Richard Stallman". Media outlets like Vice and The Daily Beast then lied and misquoted Stallman as saying that the woman was likely "entirely willing" and as "defending Epstein". He has now been pressured to resign from MIT Furthermore the deposition doesn't say she had sex with Minsky, only that Epstein told her to do so, and according to physicist Greg Benford she propositioned Minsky and he turned her down: > I know; I was there. Minsky turned her down. Told me about it. She saw us talking and didn’t approach me. This seems like a complete validation of the distinction Stallman was making. If what Minsky knew doesn't matter, if there's no difference between "Minsky sexually assaulted a woman" and "Epstein told a 17-year-old to have sex with Minsky without his knowledge or consent", then why did he turn her down? Edit: He has also resigned from the Free Software Foundation, which he founded. Grim news for free software, since I think true-believing purists like Stallman are vital to prevent various kinds of co-option." source: https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/d5axzu/why_isnt_there_any_discussion_about_the_stallman/f0l21m3/ https://old.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/d5axzu/why_...
• liha 7y ago
  I'm surprised at the number of news headlines and comments saying that Stallman defended Epstein. He absolutely did not. His entire point can be summed up as "if person A (Epstein) coerces a 17 year old girl into approaching and having sex with person B (Minsky), and does a hypothetically convincing job of it, is person B (Minsky) guilty of statutory rape / sexual assault?" His argument is valid considering Guiffre never accused Minsky of sexual assault, and doubly valid considering there is at least one witness who said that while Guiffre approached them, Minsky did not have sex with her. Even for the people saying that it IS statutory rape in a court of law (i.e. ignorance of her age doesn't matter to the court), please consider that Minsky isn't actually "guilty" because this hasn't been proven in said court of law.
• neoliberal_dad 7y ago
  That this is being framed as a matter of free speech is preposterous. Richard Stallman isn't some low-level engineer. He runs one of the largest and most impactful open source foundations in the world. The question isn't whether it's ok to have these kinds of discussions. Stallman's questions were, to my mind, obtuse and silly, and a 74 year-old shouldn't need those things explained to him, but some people do. The important question is this: is somebody who is this obtuse about rape victims and the difficulties that women face in the workforce fit to lead one of the biggest and most impactful open source organizations in the world? The answer to that is clearly no.
• hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  I hoe that the moderators will crack down on the outrageously defamatory statements being made on this thread... If the aim of HN is to run a better forum for discussion then lying in a defamatory way about people should not be tolerated as part of civil discourse.
  • hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
    And yes failure to make yourself aware of basic facts before defaming someone is as bad as lying.
• ameixaseca 7y ago
  Stallman was questioning an absolute statement by using some logic and common sense, building a most-likely scenario for what happened - which could maybe better reflect the situation based on knowledge he had about the deceased. He did not transfer the guilt to the victim nor defended anything wrong that Minsky may have done. This scenario seems entirely plausible for me. The deceased is not here to defend himself, so I guess it's up to his friends/family/coworkers to defend his reputation. Also, about the age of consent, I find it ludicrous that a number of people do not know the age of consent on most of the western world is usually 16 or less. Some are even saying "some european countries still have 16 or 14 y/o as age of consent..." as if the age of consent is going to increase in the short term. Spoiler alert: USA is the odd one out, and it's more in line with Turkey than Western Europe. Let this information sink in for a moment.
• dropit_sphere 7y ago
  Since they can't be made too visible: Stallman's actual comments: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-09132019142056-0001.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...
• manfredz 7y ago
  Maybe Microsoft can hire him.
• Fice 7y ago
  The most alarming thing about witch hunts like this, is that big social corporations have all the means to control which panic will spread or be shunned. And if Stallman's FSF colleagues endorsed the panic and pressured him into resignation instead of protecting him, it might mean that FSF has just lost it's independence from corporate power.
• manfredz 7y ago
  Maybe Microsoft can hire him?
• aphelion 7y ago
  'Look, freedom from speech is not freedom from consequences. Nobody is stopping Professor Galilei from continuing to insist that the earth revolves around the sun, and besides the Inquisition is a private institution with a right to practice freedom of association by associating Galileo with some thumbscrews(and I heard a rumor he's a creep).'
• aphelion 7y ago
  'Look, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. Professor Galilei said something gross, but nobody is silencing him. The Inquisition is just going to exercise its right to freedom of association by associating him with some thumbscrews. Plus I hear he's a creep!'
• stanulam 7y ago
  This rapist is out - CANCELED!
• stanulam 7y ago
  This rapist is out. Canceled!
• jackmaney 7y ago
  Good riddance. [spits]
• flippinburgers 7y ago
  Politics is sports and this is a chance to see which jersey you happen to be wearing. Personally, I find one side is actually attempting to argue from a logical standpoint whereas the other is concerned about the emotion evoked by the situation. This is apparent because you will be labelled insensitive if you attempt to point out the flaws.
• flippinburgers 7y ago
  The modern day Letter A.
• linusnext 7y ago
  Schicklgruber Jugend Weiblich will go after Linus next.
• HNLurker2 7y ago
  He did the Epstein
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• Haga 7y ago
  You can not defend pedophiles and theire entrapped associates in public. Pressuring them as a mob into services like the church was always the first judicative pillar. Thus moral outrage instincts = request for more justice for a unjust society. The bigger the injustices the larger the mob. It's tardcoded and doesn't go away.
• collyw 7y ago
  Where can I see a link to what he actually said? As usual everyone is giving their own interpretation of his controversial remarks with their own spin.
  • mtrower 7y ago
    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/09132019142056-0001.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/091320191... This is an excerpt from the CSAIL mailing list archive, so start at the bottom and work your way up. All names aside from RMS have been redacted. Some people are also bringing up this post from April, so here is that text: https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_2019_(Plea_deal_for_Epstein) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_201... But the main content is the mailing list.
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• flippinburgers 7y ago
  It is unfortunate. I hope that what Stallman brought to the world due to his personality is not overshadowed by this. I think that the people who, for lack of a better term, are frothing at the mouth with the opportunity to attack him don't have a true understanding of the degree to which free software has changed the world, powering companies and huge parts of the economy. It baffles me. Maybe they just don't care. I'm not sure, but I feel that he is being wildly misrepresented.