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$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now

• johnwheeler 8y ago
  Im sure there’s a long waiting list, right? Seems like a great value
  • andrewmunsell 8y ago
    Delivers in 2-4 weeks according to Tesla
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
• jakemor 8y ago
  So this is the big news?
  • aerovistae 8y ago
    Sorry, your phrasing seems to imply it isn’t, or am I misunderstanding you?
    • iooi 8y ago
      They are referring to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19275305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19275305
    • bdcravens 8y ago
      The point being that there was anticipation of something bigger, not finally following through on what was promised previously.
      • camjohnson26 8y ago
        Nice distraction from the SEC’s request for a contempt of court ruling though.
  • _ph_ 8y ago
    Yes, it is. For Tesla it means, that they made up to their promise given when introducing the Model 3. Tesla has gotten a lot of critique after the Model 3 deliveries where much later than initially expected and the available versions much more expensive then the promised base price. Offering now a Model 3 for that base price should win them a lot of credibility back. For the consumer it means, that the cheapest Tesla is now available for 35k vs. 42k vor the mid-range until today. Thats 7k less and make Tesla cars available to a larger audience. While I don't like how Tesla represents the prices with savings, the effective price gets close or below 30k, which is huge. For electric cars overall it is also important. Tesla is the largest manufacturer of electric cars and the waiting times for the Model 3 are way lower than the competition. So this marks quite some progress in the availability of affordable electric cars.
    • jmpman 8y ago
      It’s not the promise I’d signed up for. When I dropped my $2k reservation, it was for a $35,000 car, including a $7500 government rebate, or net $27500 (plus tax lic etc). Instead of delivering my car in the order the reservation was placed, (in that scenario, I’d get the full $7500 rebate), my reservation was reprioritized for Tesla’s bottom line. Would I have done the same thing in Elon’s shoes, sure, but just because they’ve delivered a $35,000 version, doesn’t mean I’m happy.
      • natch 8y ago
        That’s fair, but then it’s not necessarily all about what you want. Part of it is helping invest in accelerating the world’s transition to sustainable energy. Personally I’m ok with that. ymmv. How was your reservation $2k though? It makes me wonder if you are really a reservation holder, given that you got the amount wrong. Fake outrage?
        • jmpman 8y ago
          I put down two reservations, at $1k each. So, my outrage is quite real. I intended to buy two $35k versions, after rebate at $27,500, that’s a better deal than any Honda Accord. And, I didn’t request my refund back because I believed in the vision. However, now I’m even more pissed, so I’ve made the refund request.
• npunt 8y ago
  Legit: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/18245165/tesla-model-3-price-lower-cost-elon-musk-news https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/18245165/tesla-model-3-pr... New Prices Cheap Interior Standard Range (220mi) - $35k Partial Premium Interior Standard Range Plus (240mi) - $37k Premium Interiors Mid Range (264mi) - $40k Long Range (325mi) - $43k Dual Motor Long Range (310mi) - $47k Dual Motor Performance (310mi) - $58k
  • VikingCoder 8y ago
    Page says $26,950 for Standard Range for me, with an * * Prices above include potential incentives and gas savings. Learn More Weird.
    • gjs278 8y ago
      yes, I hate that nonsense. they’re trying to include rebates and gasoline savings. just show the damn price. it makes going through all the options mind numbing.
    • npunt 8y ago
      They've been doing that for a long time, trying to explain in TCO terms instead of sticker price. It can be somewhat misleading at times but I get the rationale.
      • xienze 8y ago
        >It can be somewhat misleading at times but I get the rationale. “Somewhat misleading”? Acting as though money saved on gas reduces your purchase price somehow is just straight up lying. The car still costs $35k when you sign on the dotted line, gas costs don’t factor into that at all. If you want to talk how much it’ll cost you after n years of ownership, talking about gas costs is perfectly valid. Purchase price though?
        • npunt 8y ago
          Disagree. Electric vehicles have a very different cost structure than gas vehicles. For vast majority of buyers this will be their first electric vehicle and market education needs to be done. There's 90+ years of gas vehicle culture education to un-do here. Total Cost of Ownership is a legit (and even preferred) way to represent cost in most industries. It's just not common in consumer purchasing. This is a variant of TCO. They provide a good calculator where you can figure it out. I think there's room for discussion about how prominent you make the TCO calculator and the particular copy used in that. This is why I said it was somewhat misleading, because I think it could be better. But I definitely don't think it's lying, that's awfully black and white.
• paxys 8y ago
  It's so shady that their advertised price includes some hypothetical "potential gas savings", and the actual price is behind a tiny "learn more" link.
  • LeoPanthera 8y ago
    The real price is at the bottom of the page without having to click through, but yes, it's still really shady. No other car OEM does this.
    • goshx 8y ago
      My experiences with other cars are the opposite. I've seen a lot of advertised prices that are not really what they want to charge you when you make it to the store to purchase.
      • fengb 8y ago
        Funnily enough, the listed MSRP usually much higher than actual dealership price.
        • mjevans 8y ago
          That's just so they can give you the illusion of some kind of savings. It'd be like if I got to go in to a hiring offer and was able to demand a million dollars a year so that any lower salary seemed like a value.
        • bduerst 8y ago
          Anchoring. It's a negotiation tactic since most purchases are through negotiation. Also the same with the advertised monthly leasing prices that you see on commercials - all subject to credit and other circumstances.
          • saalweachter 8y ago
            My experience has been that when you actually go in to buy a car, you get a swath of arbitrary discounts to the MSRP, then you get a few other fees and especially taxes that bring it back up to the MSRP. So I'd guess that there's also a component of the high MSRP + large standard discounts which is also making sure that you don't come in expecting to pay an advertised price, get aaaallllmost all the way through the process, get the final price with tax that is ~10%/several k$ higher, and then crap out there both because it is a real kick in the pants and you may not have the extra money.
• CydeWeys 8y ago
  Interesting to point out that the $35k is the full price, which goes down when additional discounts are applied. If you get the short range model with no options, it starts out at $35k, then goes down all the way to $24,950 after including the $3,750 Federal tax credit, $2,000 New York EV rebate (clearly it's geolocating by IP address here), and "$4,300 estimated 6 year gas savings". OK, so that last bit is BS, and it looks like there's a hidden $1,200 destination and doc fee, so the actual real price including tax breaks is $30,450 in NYC. Still not bad at all!
  • kevindong 8y ago
    The gas savings is definitely shady. But including the federal tax credits and destination fee is fair I think. As far as I'm aware, no auto maker includes the destination/docs/handling fee in the MSRP. The Tesla fee amount is comparable to other automakers also (it's on the high side at $1,200; but it's not too different from Toyota's $930 and Honda's $920). Presuming your location due to geolocation is a bit too far (but that's debatable) since they didn't disclose that immediately up front.
    • CydeWeys 8y ago
      I still think that $30,450 overall is a good deal, and I'd go for that if a car made sense for me at all (it doesn't though, being in NYC). It's just purposely confusing the way the price is manipulated downwards using questionable-at-best pricing practices.
    • thebluehawk 8y ago
      It's annoying that they don't make it more clear that's what they are doing, but the gas saving is a real thing. I used to spent $120 a month on gas, that went to $45 a month of electricity, then I got on a Time of Use plan where electricity is cheaper at night and now my monthly "fuel" cost is $15.
      • vvanders 8y ago
        Yup, I was spending $400/mo on gas which is now close to $50/mo before you figure in oil change costs. Quite a few cars/trucks run synthetic these days which can really start adding up.
• mvexel 8y ago
  I'm confused about the return policy, on the glossy ordering web site it say 7 days / 1000 miles, but on the T&C page it says 3 days / 500 miles. It's an interesting policy regardless. In sounds like it's pretty much 'no questions asked'. Any experiences with this?
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • sethammons 8y ago
    Toyota does a similar thing (at least around where I live). I had a week on both a new and used car purchase to return it (some caveats like dings and such).
  • ivalm 8y ago
    The return is probably easy, but unless you are paying cash cancelling the loan and associated things on your credit report might be more difficult.
  • npunt 8y ago
    One downside of how fast Tesla changes things is the poor people in charge of making sure all the assets & copy across all the various documents are all up to date. I don't envy that position!
• seltzered_ 8y ago
  blog post: https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-tesla-model-3-available-now https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-tesla-model-3-available-now The interesting part is "Shifting all sales online, combined with other ongoing cost efficiencies, will enable us to lower all vehicle prices by about 6% on average, allowing us to achieve the $35,000 Model 3 price point earlier than we expected. Over the next few months, we will be winding down many of our stores, with a small number of stores in high-traffic locations remaining as galleries, showcases and Tesla information centers."
  • sctb 8y ago
    Thanks! We've updated the link from https://3.tesla.com/model3/design#battery https://3.tesla.com/model3/design#battery.
    • veb 8y ago
      I was wondering what on earth all the top commenters were talking about! Thanks.
• tranchms 8y ago
  It currently costs about $2.50 to manufacture a battery cell. There are 7,700 cells in a standard battery pack. That’s $19,250 in cells before battery pack assembly. I don’t know how they are making money on this. I’m inclined to believe they’re losing money, or someone is somewhere in the line. Maybe they expect those battery costs to decline rapidly in the near future? What do you think?
  • cjbprime 8y ago
    $2.50 at what volume? Are you saying that's Tesla's cost, or someone else's?
    • tranchms 8y ago
      I think they’re doing about 3.5 million cells a day. The final production target is 10 million, from what I remember.
  • aaomidi 8y ago
    Maybe its cheaper to make the batteries in China?
    • outworlder 8y ago
      Doubtful, otherwise the Gigafactory would make little sense.
      • aaomidi 8y ago
        I said it'd be cheaper, not more expensive.
  • dymk 8y ago
    Where are you getting the $2.50 number from? I'd imagine they're banking on cost savings via mass producing cells themselves, and improvements in the rest of their supply chain as demand for batteries goes up.
  • 8y ago
• PinguTS 8y ago
  Here in Germany I just see a black page with the logo and the text: "The wait is almost over - Great things are launching shortly"
  • lol768 8y ago
    In the UK at least, there's a GeoIP lookup that gets done and you get bounced off elsewhere if it doesn't think you're in the US. https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?redirect=no https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?redirect=no works for me to prevent this behaviour.
    • PinguTS 8y ago
      Thanks. That works for me too.
• zepearl 8y ago
  Does this have something to do with the decision of the owners of Tesla's convertible bonds if to get back cash or shares? https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-to-pay-march-convertible-debt-cash-stock-report-2018-12?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-to-pay-march-convertib... I mean that maybe if the bond owners see that Tesla is (really?) about to deliver the 35k model they'll opt less for cash and more for stocks? (therefore Tesla would have less problems with liquidity)
  • travisoneill1 8y ago
    No. The only factor is the convert price vs the stock price. If the stock price is lower, they will just take the cash and buy the stock on the open market at a better price.
    • camjohnson26 8y ago
      Exactly. The bonds will be paid in cash at this point, no question.
      • zepearl 8y ago
        Thx!
• Animats 8y ago
  Tesla had to do this. They've filled the order backlog of customers who were willing to pay more than $35K. They still have many on the list who are only willing to pay the original $35K. So it's sell at $35K, cut production, or park the unsold cars in a lot. Happens all the time in automotive. Big question is, does Tesla make a profit at that price? $8K more for 50% more battery. Or $24K for an entire large battery. Big markup there.
  • Pfhreak 8y ago
    Both of your $NK more numbers include a whole lot more than just battery changes. (Including a whole additional engine and better performance in the +$23k model.)
  • nickik 8y ago
    I don't think they currently had to do this, they have just started delivery in Europe and China and there is significant demand for the higher priced models so that they could continue to do this. I see it more as them wanting to show again that they could build up a huge order backlog as that something that pretty much no other car company can do. That would help them with the market and potential future loans.
    • camjohnson26 8y ago
      Demand has collapsed in the US for model 3 and looks incredibly weak in Europe and China at this point. There is no reason for this across the board price cut other than weak demand.
      • Lapsed 8y ago
        Where are you getting this from?
        • camjohnson26 8y ago
          It’s general consensus but here’s an article for example that suggests less than 20,000 Europe orders and hundreds in China. Of course we won’t know for sure until Q1 earnings but it’s a safe bet https://seekingalpha.com/article/4239396-tesla-weak-model-3-demand-europe-china-may-widen-losses-2019 https://seekingalpha.com/article/4239396-tesla-weak-model-3-...
• usaphp 8y ago
  Coming later this year: - Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs. - Automatic driving on city streets. Option Selected: $5,000
  • pgroves 8y ago
    I've been on plenty of machine learning projects and have seen the boss make promises that the engineers are expected to keep. This is exactly what it looks like. The outcome is always overfitting a simulation or data set somewhere so that it looks like it's working, but the real world performance ends up being worse. Unless the engineers get stubborn and declare themselves to have failed (which can actually happen). But in the projects I did, it was some dumb sales recommendation system. These people are doing it with self driving cars.
    • mikeash 8y ago
      I guess this is a case where it’s fortunate that Tesla is almost always late. If those features ship before 11:59PM Pacific time on December 31st, I’ll be surprised. (And I say this as a fan who owns two of the things.)
• lol768 8y ago
  If anyone outside of the US wants to see this page without the frustrating immediate redirect that you get after it has done its GeoIP lookup, you can use this URL: https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?redirect=no#battery https://3.tesla.com/model3/design?redirect=no#battery
• BenoitEssiambre 8y ago
  "To achieve these prices while remaining financially sustainable, Tesla is shifting sales worldwide to online only. You can now buy a Tesla in North America via your phone in about 1 minute, and that capability will soon be extended worldwide. We are also making it much easier to try out and return a Tesla, so that a test drive prior to purchase isn’t needed. You can now return a car within 7 days or 1,000 miles for a full refund. Quite literally, you could buy a Tesla, drive several hundred miles for a weekend road trip with friends and then return it for free. With the highest consumer satisfaction score of any car on the road, we are confident you will want to keep your Model 3. Shifting all sales online, combined with other ongoing cost efficiencies, will enable us to lower all vehicle prices by about 6% on average, allowing us to achieve the $35,000 Model 3 price point earlier than we expected. Over the next few months, we will be winding down many of our stores," Bold
  • ww520 8y ago
    Does that circumvent some state laws that demand selling cars through dealerships? Also does Tesla still have Tesla branded "service shop" to do car delivery/return/refund/service?
    • BenoitEssiambre 8y ago
      "At the same time, we will be increasing our investment in the Tesla service system, with the goal of same-day, if not same-hour service, and with most service done by us coming to you, rather than you coming to us. Moreover, we guarantee service availability anywhere in any countries in which we operate."
      • heyyyouu 8y ago
        While service is an issue, the bigger issue right now is repairs after an accident or other, bigger problems that can't be fixed in a "daily visit on site".There are people waiting three to six months for repairs: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/why-does-it-take-months-repair-tesla https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/why-does-it-take-month... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/repair-time-6-months.112515/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/repair-time-6-months... https://www.driving.co.uk/news/features/tesla-owners-facing-extended-wait-repairs/ https://www.driving.co.uk/news/features/tesla-owners-facing-... https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Tesla-owners-fume-about-delays-for-service-13112104.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Tesla-owners-fu... My boss had to wait more than three months this past fall after his accident, and he was making payments the entire time (of course) --- they have not fixed this problem. And no, most insurance will not cover a loaner for this period of time.
• jonny_eh 8y ago
  No Apple CarPlay support?
• martythemaniak 8y ago
  This is a pretty big deal. The Model 3 isn't just a great car, but it's now price competitive with Hyundai (the Kona EV) and the Chevy Bolt.
• pinewurst 8y ago
  Amused the $35k model is any color you'd like as long as it's black.
  • webninja 8y ago
    :D “Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black.” -Henry Ford (July 30, 1863 – April 7, 1947) This was in reference to the Ford Model T which was introduced at $850 in 1908 and was brought down to $300 in 1925.
    • chrisseaton 8y ago
      I don't see why it's amusing though - it made sense as a way to keep costs down then and it does now. What's the problem?
      • pinewurst 8y ago
        It's amusing to me for the history repeating itself, quite probably intentionally - not a problem.
• 11thEarlOfMar 8y ago
  For sure, the most interesting number in upcoming 10Qs will be the gross margin. 15%? 20%? 25%? For reference, General Motors reports less than 10%. Toyota, 18%.
  • nickik 8y ago
    The 35k will probably drag their margin down but they will still sell luxury models they will spend most of 2019 trying to get the margins up. The deftly want to keep it over 20% as having the high gross margin has always been on of their main claim to fame as nobody else can do that with EV right now.
• microcolonel 8y ago
  Is there an option which gives you good panel fitment and unharmed paint upon delivery?
  • natch 8y ago
    Those were problems with some early deliveries. Things have improved a lot over time.
    • microcolonel 8y ago
      > Things have improved a lot over time. I'm going by what I've seen of people receiving orders in the last few months, over what time has it improved? If you buy one now, will the fitment compare to (for example) GM by the time it is delivered? How likely is the paint to be scratched all the way through to the base coat on delivery? I want to believe that they can make these things right, but honestly I can not have that much faith in them given what I've seen.
      • natch 8y ago
        There are a lot of haters and short sellers out there and they can be especially vocal, so I’d just say take what you’ve seen online with a grain of salt.
        • microcolonel 8y ago
          Exhibit A: Notorious Tesla hater and shortseller[0]; deceiving us all with his pesky rulers and loupes. Sarcasm aside, I'm inclined to be charitable to Tesla, but quality issues abound with every generation of Tesla products; and while things have improved, they are behind the industry in many areas. [0]: https://youtu.be/FSLTNjGI8hw https://youtu.be/FSLTNjGI8hw
          • natch 8y ago
            Yeah they are behind in some areas, and WAY ahead in others. If people go in with their eyes open, and their priorities straight, they'll be fine. But one point that seems to get lost is that the reported quality issues have gotten way better. That car in the video is I'll admit quite ridiculous -- I'm guessing it is an anomaly though. My car had nothing like that and I did inspect it carefully on delivery (I guess this guy did not). I don't think anyone is forcing you to take delivery if you get an insanely scratched car like that, but certainly it's fair to expect that a car company would not try to deliver such a scratched car in the first place. I just don't think it represents the normal experience these days.
• Shivetya 8y ago
  I own a TM3, Long Range, Premium Interior, Enhanced auto pilot. The best part of this announcement for LR owners is that the range will be bumped to 325 miles for new and existing cars! that out of the way, well it is about time. it is nice to see, I still don't agree with how they present the cost on their website but I am at the point that I think it will take regulations to fix that. Telsa seems immune to criticism on that front. I am in the camp of, truth in advertising. Now, the value of the premium interior took a sizable hit. the remaining advantages are heated rear seats, more speakers for the stereo, satellite maps with live traffic, streaming media, and the internet browser. so my question is, did I pay for life of the car satellite traffic and streaming? there have been hints that this was not the case. the rear heated seats and extra speakers certainly don't make up $2500 in value but if there is lifetime satellite maps with traffic that would be a selling point. on a side note, the other area besides advertising pricing that Tesla needs to be called out on is providing parts to repair existing cars. The nightmare still exists for many owners with some being without their car for over six months.
  • woolvalley 8y ago
    I'd rather use my own cellphone plan & wifi than pay for that kind of stuff indirectly.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • londons_explore 8y ago
      If the car supported carplay or android auto, this argument would make sense.
      • jumelles 8y ago
        Wait, Teslas don't have either of those...?
        • londons_explore 8y ago
• powerbroker 8y ago
  It's so shady that they are closing down their stores and have no one to answer questions about when spare parts for damaged cars are going to arrive. I detect a pattern of ducking from questions about keeping their current cars on the road.
  • mikeash 8y ago
    The service centers will still be there.
• sanj 8y ago
  The Massachusetts EV rebate is incorrect. It dropped to $1500 this year.
• vgchh 8y ago
  Wonder how the move to close many of their stores would play out 5 years down the line. Is the idea that now there enough cars out there for people to experience through friends and colleagues? Seems like a very unconventional move (conventional for Tesla). Also it appears Autopilot is now a $3K add-on (vs $5K previously). And the full self-driving is back at an additional $5K and includes some of the features that previously existed in AP.
• dmitrygr 8y ago
  Actually: $36,200 Tesla charges a non-negotiable $1,200 "Destination & doc fee" which in CA is not a fee. It is not state mandated, and is just pure profit for dealerships that charge it (explaining why the amount varies wildly per-dealership). Google it. It is NOT required anywhere, and all cars I've ever bought, I've gotten the dealership to pay it.
  • Diederich 8y ago
    Do the other manufacturers include this in their base price advertisements?
    • dmitrygr 8y ago
      nope, but they also allow me to negotiate. I cannot negotiate with tesla.com Also, 1.2k is a LOT of fee! Boardwalk and Momentum (two large dealerships here in norcal) both try to charge doc fees around $400, not 1.2 kilodollars!
      • WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
        Just wait for the used tesla market to kick off. Once people start having issues getting parts, these cars will be joining the market for cheap.
      • Diederich 8y ago
        > nope, but they also allow me to negotiate The best (and perhaps only positive) dealership experience I've ever had was when I bought my 1997 Saturn. Saturn was, at the time, no haggle, no negotiation.
  • sixQuarks 8y ago
    Sorry, but that's BS. You have never gotten a dealer to take doc fee off the price. That would be illegal and no dealer is going to do that. Negotiate the price of the car lower? Yes. Take doc fee off. No way. By law, dealers HAVE to charge the same doc fee to every buyer. They may not have to charge doc fee, but if they do, it's the same for everyone, no exceptions. If on some crazy change you actually got the dealer to line item doc fee as $0 on the contract, than they could be in a ton of trouble.
• elchief 8y ago
  In British Columbia you can get $5k incentive for an electric vehicle plus $5k if you destroy your ICE car. I believe you need to own it for 6 months So about $36k net CAD for the base Model 3
  • b_tterc_p 8y ago
    Why... would that make sense? We want to shift away from ICE but destroying existing cars is clearly illogical...
    • mikeash 8y ago
      Unfortunately, a lot of well-meaning environmental incentives are illogical.
    • AdrianB1 8y ago
      If you have a really old car that is polluting a lot, it makes sense to give an incentive to retire it rather than selling it and keep it on the streets. I think in my country the incentive is for cars older than 12 years, nobody will destroy a new ICE car to get $5,000 when you can get much more by selling it.
• linux2647 8y ago
  > Quite literally, you could buy a Tesla, drive several hundred miles for a weekend road trip with friends and then return it for free. Has anyone done this?
  • AdrianB1 8y ago
    The announcement was today, so there was no chance to do it in the last weekend.
• sjm-yc-acct 8y ago
  I wish they would hire the interior controls engineer that worked on the 8th gen. Mazda Protege. Simple, elegant, and ergonomic. That giant iPhone in the middle of the Tesla 3 puts a crick in my neck just from looking at the pictures.
  • josephpmay 8y ago
    Except everyone who owns one seems to love the interior
    • sjm-yc-acct 8y ago
      Have they driven a Protege? :)
      • goshx 8y ago
        To be honest I've never heard of it before your post.
  • zaroth 8y ago
    But buy one and you will actually love it every day, says this TM3 owner.
    • sjm-yc-acct 8y ago
      I would probably like this one better: https://www.stoddard.com/media/catalog/category/IMG_1365.jpg https://www.stoddard.com/media/catalog/category/IMG_1365.jpg Early 911 interior.
  • goshx 8y ago
    I am sure there will be other brands that will stick to the classic interior design for their EV's.
  • m463 8y ago
    The giant ipad is fine for people who don't want to drive, but for people who enjoy driving, an immersive experience is important. I think the people who want the performance version should get a dashboard, or the option of one. I'll bet a $3000 optional dashboard would sell like hotcackes.
• tosca 8y ago
  Don’t buy a car from a company that won’t last past 2019.
  • dmode 8y ago
    This prediction has been made for every year of Tesla's existence
  • fweoiufhewa 8y ago
    What if I love road trips but hate combustion engines?
    • MeltySmelty 8y ago
      Then you're probably not very fun to hang out with.
  • wcoenen 8y ago
    The risk of default, as estimated by the market, can be calculated[1] from the Tesla bond prices[2]. With the numbers I punched in, I'm getting 2.9% chance of default per coupon period (6 months). [1] http://www.quantwolf.com/calculators/bonddefaultcalc.html http://www.quantwolf.com/calculators/bonddefaultcalc.html [2] https://markets.businessinsider.com/bonds/tesla_incdl-notes_201717-25_regs-bond-2025-usu8810laa18 https://markets.businessinsider.com/bonds/tesla_incdl-notes_...
• zaroth 8y ago
  In my obviously very biased opinion as a TM3 owner, I am both happy and sad for this news. The Tesla store in the mall near my house is fun. My kids love going there and sitting in the different models, and my son knows how to trigger all the Easter eggs, like making the X falcon doors dance. At the same time, I have zero use for the store now that I’m an owner, and I had zero use for the store in actually making my purchase. The test drive that I did finally do of the TM3 (after I had already put $3,500 down and was entirely certain I would be buying the car) was actually underwhelming because I didn’t get nearly enough time with the car to really appreciate it, nor get to drive it in any kind of interesting terrain. Actually driving my own TM3 on the other hand blew me away from nearly the first moment and still does. I wonder how many owners are like me in that with the massive quantity of YouTube videos and reviews, already knew with certainty a TM3 would be their next car without actually needing to drive it? BTW, I’ve never had that with another car, and never would have dreamed of buying a car without driving it, before Tesla. At the TM3 base-range $35k starting price, I think the vast, vast majority of people who “trial” one will keep it. This is particularly true if you’ve already made any kind of actual arrangement to charge it at a decent kW rate. I would add that they need to have a trial mode of the full auto-pilot functionality, and also perhaps the ability to pay monthly for auto-pilot software subscription rather than bumping up the sticker price. This would also help with reducing sales tax and excise taxes I think. I just hope the car-buying public is ready for this. Tesla will rely heavily, extremely heavily on word of mouth without a way for people to easily get in and touch and test drive a model with no commitment. Luckily I give test drives to everyone I know who I can talk into it, and I’m guessing most owners act the same in an effort to evangelize. But as they try to go more mass market and compete with the Accords and Camrys, as they have less of the evangelical early adopters, will that target market a) have the charging infrastructure readily available, and b) really be willing to buy purely online and sight unseen? I want this to work, and fear that it won’t. They are pushing so damn hard to get to that $35k price point with any kind of margin left over. If they had another year of process improvements maybe they could do it even with the stores. Without a store they can pull forward a profitable $35k TM3 several months at least. So it makes perfect sense while still being a huge gamble. Wild ride. (Copied from the other post about the same news)
  • Pfhreak 8y ago
• anth_anm 8y ago
  Desperation move to try and get the stock above the point where they have to repay a billion dollar loan?
  • T-A 8y ago
    No, that boat sailed a couple of days ago: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-27/musk-s-tweets-all-but-assure-cash-payout-for-920-million-bond https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-27/musk-s-tw...
• plg 8y ago
  In Canada, after tax, the most basic model with no options is almost $60,000 CAD. With all wheel drive, sport wheels, and no other options (no autopilot options at all) it is basically $78,000 CAD after tax. I can get a LOT of car for that price elsewhere. Yikes.
  • AdrianB1 8y ago
    Providing more context would make it more clear for non-Canadians: CAD is 0.76 USD, so "almost 60,000 CAD" is almost $45,600, depending on how much "almost" is. For even more context, it is ~ 62,000 EURO in Germany, that is "almost" $70,000. I would choose Canada instead :)
  • DeonPenny 8y ago
    Just have someone buy it across the boarder for that
    • woolvalley 8y ago
      Unfortunately, tesla does not provide the paperwork to import the car, so you can't import a us tesla into canada. Probably to protect that margin your seeing. If I'm wrong, a friend of mine would be interested :D
• throwaway2016a 8y ago
  This is kind of infuriating. I just took delivery of my AWD Long Range end of December and $3000 less even when you take into consideration my tax credit. And to top it off, the RWD Long Range and Performance are getting firmware updates that give them extra speed (in the case of Performance) or range (in the case of RWD) but mine is getting... "about a 5% increase in power" whatever that means. I get paying extra to be an early adopter (and have gladly done it). But I effectively paid $1000 for every month I had it early. I feel cheated like Tesla just took the government money and instead of passing on savings to the customer they pocketed it. Edit: As an aside, I love the car and would still recommend it. But I think people in my situation have a right to be a little upset.
  • beaner 8y ago
    If you wait for everything to get cheaper or better, you'll never get anything, cuz likely there's always something better coming next year. I think when making purchases, it's helpful to be able to ask "is this a fair trade for me right now?" If it's no, don't get it. If it's yes, then when you complain to yourself or feel that you've been treated unfairly, the 2nd voice in your head should be saying "this was a fair deal that you chose to accept, be happy with it, don't be envious of better deals offered to others."
    • throwaway2016a 8y ago
      I understand that but we're talking three months here and a 20% drop in price for an identical product. This is not like a new iPhone. I owe the bank more than the car is worth NEW. Or close to it.[0] So effectively, Tesla has tanked the resale value of the asset. So the $3000 isn't even the half of it. I am now also depreciated by that much more. [0] I haven't done the math, I may be be slightly bellow by a few hundred bucks. Edit: Removed the use of the word "underwater". Per sokolof's correct statement, it's a car, you're pretty much under water the second you drive off the lot.
      • sokoloff 8y ago
        Unless you made a particularly large downpayment, you were probably already underwater on the loan. That's extremely common for the first 1/3-1/2 of the loan period on nearly any car.
• sambroner 8y ago
  Seems like a good opportunity for a peer to peer test drive network. People might pay 50 bucks for a 1hr drive. I can’t tell making consumers find alternatives to a test drive is good capitalism or bad capitalism.
• mrfusion 8y ago
  Why not close the stores and get creative with the test drives? Pay existing owners a small fee to let prospective buyers drive their car. Have an app to coordinate. Or have tesla employees bring out a bunch of cars to a Walmart parking lot every Saturday. It doesn’t seem like you need expensive retail space just to cordinate test drives.
  • sowbug 8y ago
    Pay existing owners a small fee to let prospective buyers drive their car. Have an app to coordinate. That was part of the intent of the referral program: rather than relying on a dealership network with expensive real estate and expensive marketing, encourage happy owners to sell by word of mouth. Unfortunately Tesla inadvertently killed the program by picking a too-valuable top prize with the wrong incentive (a $250K Roadster in exchange for a lot of referrals by a single owner, limiting the network effect, rather than a smaller award for a smaller number of referrals spread across many owners). Plus there was no limit on the number of top awards, with some people achieving multiple Roadster awards.
• DeonPenny 8y ago
  And the stock has cratered
• sriram_sun 8y ago
  I wish they'd bundle solar installation or something with a Tesla.
• sidcool 8y ago
  This is amazing. Kudos team Tesla. You have reached here against tall odds and severe cynicism.
• MarkMc 8y ago
  Suppose Apple shut down their stores and you could only buy an iPhone online. Would they make more profit?
  • btian 8y ago
    No. Apple stores also do repairs
    • aquabeagle 8y ago
      When was the last time you got something repaired at a store while you waited? They usually have to send everything out these days.
• dreamcompiler 8y ago
  Two years ago Teslas were cool. Superchargers were free, they didn't have any real competition, and the Model S cars were very high quality. But now superchargers are expensive to use, competition in the long-range EV space is ramping up dramatically, and the Model 3 is much less reliable than the Model S was. Seems like they're responding to softening demand. I hope they can stay in business, but it doesn't look good.
• blhack 8y ago
  I just absolutely do not understand how "if you don't like it just return it" is a replacement for a test drive. Unwinding an auto loan, getting back your traded-in vehicle, etc. All of this seems non-trivial to me. Carvana does the same thing (in fact: they already are doing the whole "buy the car online, return if you don't like it, we deliver to your house" model).
  • craftyguy 8y ago
    > Unwinding an auto loan, They could pay it off immediately for you? > getting back your traded-in vehicle, They could give you the cash value of it? Also, does Tesla even accept trade-ins? > etc. What else?
    • bigtex 8y ago
      Tesla is having a terrible time paying off loans and even processing loans so I would not put too much faith in that.
• jaggednad 8y ago
  So good to see Elon making it happen despite a full court press against him in the media, likely financed by the saudis and other oil interests, and hedge funds who betting against him
• wil421 8y ago
  >At the same time, we will be increasing our investment in the Tesla service system, with the goal of same-day, if not same-hour service, and with most service done by us coming to you, rather than you coming to us. Moreover, we guarantee service availability anywhere in any country in which we operate. Next Tesla 2021 newsflash, we will continue to operate service centers but in order to reduce costs further we will no longer be able to come to you.
• elamje 8y ago
  This thread is like politics - ignoring the amazing fact that an electric vehicle that can travel 220 miles is 35k (where many hybrids and other electric cars are way over that price point), to discuss the nuances of Tesla’s business model and how they market delivery fees etc. Comical. People 10 years ago would say WTF if they knew a high tech, all electric car with self driving ability was even remotely near 40k(including autopilot).
  • abhisuri97 8y ago
    I see that point, but since Tesla has been around for a while now, consumers cannot keep giving them a pass solely because of the technical feats Tesla has achieved. They need to be held to the same criticism from the business standpoint as any other company would be (especially since Tesla is trying to position themselves as a middle-class-friendly option for EVs with the model 3).
    • r00fus 8y ago
      I find that viewpoint a bit crazy. The competition has not caught up, in fact Tesla has rocketed ahead (slower than they promised but still).
      • abhisuri97 8y ago
        By competition do you mean other EVs? If so, I agree with your point. I’m taking “competition” to mean tradition gas powered vehicles/big car manufacturers. Imo I think Tesla is picking a fight with gas powered manufacturers since they’re offering something at the same price point (ish).
  • sidcool 8y ago
    Yes, people seem to be bringing in problems beyond Tesla's control. Exaggerated E.g. Tesla: You can only order online HN: What if my internet is down? This is clearly a bad idea.
    • ballooney 8y ago
• joshfraser 8y ago
  Interesting to learn they've been artificially handicapping the range, speed and top power via software until now. "We’re also excited to announce that we’re implementing a number of firmware upgrades for both new and existing customers. These upgrades will increase the range of the Long Range Rear-Wheel Drive Model 3 to 325 miles, increase the top speed of Model 3 Performance to 162 mph, and add an average of approximately 5% peak power to all Model 3 vehicles."
  • mikekchar 8y ago
    It is possible that they were being conservative because they were afraid of degradation of batteries. Over time, with more data coming in, perhaps they decided that it wasn't necessary. It's not really such a surprise that the limit all of those things -- I think that's necessary for the correct operation of the vehicle. It's just a matter of where you put that limit and why.
  • Klathmon 8y ago
    While they do limit things in software unless you pay for them, this doesn't sound like one of those cases. It sounds more like they have found out how to safely take more power from the batteries and safely push more power to the motors through software.
• skandl 8y ago
  Everyone in the comments crying "I'd never buy a car without a test drive first" as though you need dealerships to offer a chance to drive their cars. Why not order a test drive experience online to appear at your door, just like we do every day with Uber and Lyft?
• thoughtstheseus 8y ago
  How many data scientists do you think it took to decide this exact phrase? “For 6% more money, you get 9% more range, more power, and an upgraded interior.“
• gaoshan 8y ago
  I held on as long as I could and saved up money and kept driving my 11 year old Honda. Had it totaled in a car accident a few months back and had to buy something so now instead of the $35,000 Tesla I had wanted for so long I own a perfectly decent Honda Insight. At least it was cheaper.
• Johnny555 8y ago
  I wish they'd just rent them out of their service centers. I'm not likely to buy a car without a chance to drive it first (even if I can return it "free", there's still a lot of time/effort in getting a loan, registration, insurance, etc) But I'd be happy to pay $50/day to rent it for a weekend to give it a good test drive.
  • marvin 8y ago
    Couldn’t you use a regular car rental company for that?
    • Johnny555 8y ago
      You probably could if they let you reserve a particular model but I've only been able to reserve a particular class of car, not a specific model.
• d--b 8y ago
  While I think making cars online sale only makes sense in terms of company operations. I am not exactly sure that making a car go from 37k to 35k will make such a difference in terms of sale. Probably a good publicity stunt though.
• steelframe 8y ago
  Current Tesla Model X owner. Wanted to replace our other car (ICE) with an EV. Sat in the Model 3 for exactly 15 seconds before I said, "Nope!" Never warmed up to the whole "must hit GUI elements on an LCD with my finger while driving" thing Tesla has going on for almost anything you want to do: A/C, headlights, suspension height, whatever. Interior is still second-rate. Steering column adjustment was a joke. The interior somehow felt claustrophobic. I don't know how they managed that given the room they had to work with. Went down the street to Jaguar and bought an I-PACE. Sure, it's got a handful of "first gen" issues, but I have no real regrets. Given the choice between heading out of the garage in the Model X and the I-PACE, I've been choosing the I-PACE for the past week. Could be because of the novelty of the thing, but I sort of like things like Bluetooth actually working. I'll use the Tesla when I'm going far enough to need to use the superchargers. But I actually haven't used a supercharger in over a year now.
  • 11thEarlOfMar 8y ago
    Current Model 3 owner, 15,000 miles. Never drove an X or I-PACE. I've never had more fun driving. The GUI is NBD in about an hour. It's roomy for me, even at 180 pounds. Looks like my range will go from 310 to 325 with a software upgrade. And it has built in emissions testing.
    • MPSimmons 8y ago
      I've had the same experience. Loved my LD RWD enough to get a LD AWD.
  • m463 8y ago
    I think if they offered a model 3 "controls package" with a dash or hud + a few dedicated controls, a lot of people would buy it (and therefore buy the model 3). Also, I think the model 3 steering wheel scrolly button hat things are a little imprecise. Sort of like cheaper mice where you accidentally scroll instead of clicking but with left and right thrown into the mix. The model S/X steering wheel controls seem a more refined.
  • xedeon 8y ago
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• pasta 8y ago
  I think this is huge. Those are 'affordable' prices and VW admitted Tesla is way ahead when it comes to range.
• vinni2 8y ago
  But why only in US? Will there be price drop in rest of the world?
• jillesvangurp 8y ago
  Good, It looks like economies of scale are starting to work in favor of Tesla; which I find to be unsurprising. Having this car out will shut up a lot of critics as this has been their favorite thing to whine about for the last years. Also it will make them even less likely to suffer an imminent bankruptcy. Another topic that seems to come up regularly, usually just before Tesla manages to move the bar yet again in some meaningful way. Finally, with this box ticked, it frees them up to start planning the model Y, their truck and whatever else they have been talking about for a while. I would not be surprised to see them announce more price drops in the next years. They are not done making batteries better and cheaper and they seem to be very creative in figuring out ways to reduce cost in their production processes. I think it is that ability that is going to be key to their future because yes they have competition but the competition seems to have all the problems that Tesla already solved. They are ahead of the pack in terms of production capacity, processes, and battery efficiency with a product that so far seems to be selling such that they can do without the traditional overhead of having to have an industry of middlemen, sales, marketing, licensed dealers, etc. That's very disruptive to an industry trying to emulate what Tesla is doing while preserving all of that.
• Black-Plaid 8y ago
  Available seems like a stretch, you can order one, but you sure as hell can't get one any time soon.
• londons_explore 8y ago
  > Moreover, we guarantee service availability anywhere in any country in which we operate. They'll regret this when they find out how remote some islands near alaska are that you need to take a plane then a helicopter to reach...
• matthewfelgate 8y ago
  Firing the Salesmen; Making the Product Cheaper + Service Better. I like.
• lazyjones 8y ago
  Perhaps this will be the second big disruption of the car industry and market by Tesla. Volvo/Polestar has already switched to this sales concept for their electric cars, Porsche/Audi/Mercedes are taking online pre-orders like Tesla years ago. Will all traditional car makers soon use the "Amazon model" extensively to bolster their margins?
• vgoh1 8y ago
  Tesla - love them or hate them, you have to admit, this move is bold, even borderline insane. I can't tell if this is going to save the company or wreck them, but I have to admire the balls of the leadership! At the end of the day, I think it's a pro-consumer move, provided Tesla allows independent re-sellers to cater to those who want a more traditional experience.
  • linuxftw 8y ago
    Most of the Tesla 'dealerships' I have seen simply don't have the real estate of normal dealerships. There's no way they can rollout a consumer car to their present locations. However, it appears they're doing all sales online? Smells like a last-ditch effort to cut operational costs. It's one thing to consider buying a $35k online sight-unseen (I never would), but are people going to shell out $80k+ for the luxury models? I just don't see how they will. Sitting in and driving a car is the most important aspect of buying one, IMO.
• linuxftw 8y ago
  From the article: > At the same time, we will be increasing our investment in the Tesla service system, with the goal of same-day, if not same-hour service, and with most service done by us coming to you, rather than you coming to us. Moreover, we guarantee service availability anywhere in any country in which we operate. Woah. Elsewhere [0] it's describe as a fleet of mobile trucks. Don't they know that it's illegal/against community rules to service vehicles in a driveway or (for city folks) on the street? For any major warranty work, I can take my new vehicle from just about any other brand to the shop, they give me a free loaner vehicle while it's being worked on. I would be outraged if my only option was 'fix in my driveway after we get the parts, meanwhile you just wait there' Fail. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/18245296/tesla-stores-closing-online-only-car-sales https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/18245296/tesla-stores-clo...
• nojvek 8y ago
  > Tesla is committed to making not just the best electric cars, but the best cars, period. And our products are the reason we continue to rank #1 in Consumer Reports owner satisfaction survey and have every single year since Tesla was first eligible to be included in 2013 I am making a bold prediction. Tesla may or may not go under water, but when they are short on funds Apple will acquire them. Apple’s whole brand is built on making the best hardware and software and weaving them to a great user experience. With billions of dollars in the bank, Apple would be stupid to not do it.
• WheelsAtLarge 8y ago
  Yes, Tesla got to the $35000 price but it's a car no one wants at the base price and you can't even test drive it. The battery cost is the problem. I suspect that it's only a matter of time before a Tesla with all the amenities can be had for $35000. Good for them...
• JVIDEL 8y ago
  Awesome, too bad that its never going to be available over here. Thanks (local) government...