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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

• Alien1Being 3mo ago
  German discrimination and racism towards migrant workers and visible minorities is world class. And with Alternative für Deutschland / AfD rising rapidly, this is only going to get much, much worse. https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racism-has-grown-in-germany https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racis... https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-migrant-workers-face-discrimination-and-racism-in-everyday-life-according-to-oecd/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-...
  • olelele 3mo ago
    I moved to Germany 15 years ago from Scandinavia. Integrating here is really tough. The bureaucratic systems are very opaque and small mistakes in paperwork can cause a lot of problems...
    • rawbot 3mo ago
      And the problem is that they might not be YOUR mistakes, but mistakes from someone in the government office... ask me how I know about it...
      • wojciii 3mo ago
        How do you know about it? :) Here in DK we have a law with my family name in it .. which the fuckers spelled wrong. I asked them to correct it but they refused. This is the story about how I became a citizen.
  • simianwords 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    • eloisius 3mo ago
      How many races are there? How do you draw boundaries between people who exist on a spectrum of genetic variability? What race are Kazakhs?
      • simianwords 3mo ago
        Hard boundaries are not required for categories to exist. It is really surprising that smart educated adults don't see this. Will you suggest I'm sexist because I think male and female gender exists?
        • dinkblam 3mo ago
          Colors are a a continuous spectrum, yet we put them in a bunch of categories.
          • happytoexplain 3mo ago
            It sounds like this is an analogy in support of the parent - is that the intent?
          • dofm 3mo ago
            Organising people by the colour of their skin makes exactly as much ontological sense as organising library books by the colour of their cover.
            • simianwords 3mo ago
              Can you see the fallacy you are doing here? The parent tried to suggest this: simply because a thing can be in a spectrum doesn't make it unworthy of being a category. You've twisted that analogy into this nonsensical book example.
              • dofm 3mo ago
                It’s not a fallacy, it’s a bitter, dark joke.
  • expedition32 3mo ago
    Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.
    • ButlerianJihad 3mo ago
      Interesting story about Europe's medieval history, is that the bankers and loan officers and financial professionals were all drawn from a certain ethnoreligious community. And this intrinsic nature of being the foremost, and usually the only, bankers and financial professionals, who were essentially authorized to commit usury and extract interest from the populace... probably had a lot to do with their public perception, their lack of assimilation or integration into the prevailing local faith/religion/cultures, and their relentless persecutions, expulsions, and genocide. Nevertheless, all that ugly history doesn't seem like it's put a damper on their ambitions or status through the 21st century.
      • torton 3mo ago
        That's the nice part about having your own country -- no more systemic discrimination or prohibition on owning land, or joining professional guilds, or having some king being upset about his debts and organizing a small confiscation of wealth. The ambition of keeping that country, however, is something that many people would rather deny that specific etnoreligious community.
        • hunterpayne 3mo ago
          In this case, the GP is talking about the Huguenots who are/were French Calvinists.
          • yostrovs 3mo ago
            From Wikipedia: "Middle Ages or medieval period lasted approximately from the 5th to late 15th centuries" The Huguenots really became a thing at the end of 15th century. They were named after Besançon Hugues (1487 – 1532).
  • Tade0 3mo ago
    > Foreigners and native Germans 'unite' in discriminatory attitudes I don't think it's just the Germans and there's definitely an additional factor at play.
  • sdsdssweew213 3mo ago
    I would hardly call it "world class". Most of the world is much harsher place to migrants than any EU member country. Privileged, well paid expats may be treated nicely in most of the world, but that does not apply to refugees and people who move for low-paid manual labor.
    • uludag 3mo ago
      Well paid expats wearing a hijab, who definitely aren't refugees, will not be treated nicely in Germany. Lived and worked in Germany and saw it a lot. It's a low bar indeed to treat skilled labor coming to your country nicely that sadly Germany can't even pass.
      • cineticdaffodil 3mo ago
        [flagged]
      • trinix912 3mo ago
        You are kind of expected to adjust yourself to the culture of the country you’re immigrating to. If you fail (or refuse) to do so in the most obvious/visible ways possible (like clothing), I think you shouldn’t be surprised when people look at you weird because you look out of place.
        • bcye 3mo ago
          Someone wearing a hijab looks out of place in the land of the Döner?
          • aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
            > Someone wearing a hijab looks out of place in the land of the Döner? The history with the Turkish gastarbeiters is a complicated one. Please don't twist the knife in the wound.
            • 3mo ago
  • prolly97 3mo ago
    I mean... yes discrimination doesn't feel nice... but it's not as if people who come to Germany where forced to do so by the germans. I'm not from Germany, but the vibes in some of the high-muslim density parts of Germany I've been to have likewise felt unwelcome, unsafe and hostile (towards me as a scandinavian). So it feel a bit more complicated than "germans are racist, BAD". Anecdotally I've heard that it's hard for any other nationality to do business in germany, simply because they prefer to do business with other germans. It's their country, we just need to accept those cultural differences, and their right to do as they please in their own country. There's plenty of countries whose laws or attitudes I don't agree with, and that I just don't visit or have any ambition of staying in. China, Burkina Faso, Somalia and Chad are a few examples.
    • talon8635 3mo ago
      Not to mention the fact that all of those home countries are equally if not more openly racist and restrictive of immigrants from the other direction The question is, is any country “perfect” in this regard, showing zero degree of self-selecting and internal favoritism? I suspect not, because it’s not really possible to have a country without focusing on, well, itself, first and foremost. Of course integrated immigrants ARE part of “the country”. But if immigrations swells too fast and/or immigrants are not well integrated, then of course that can present obvious non-racism-based problems for the county’s finances, infrastructure, economy, and culture. Is anyone outside the west throwing the word “racist” around so liberally? It seems to west thinks it’s somehow evolved beyond the natural constraints of state/tribe. But, of course, it can’t.
      • mongol 3mo ago
        No country is "perfect" in this regard, just as no human is perfect. It often strikes me as ironic how people label an entire country or a people as racist, immediately showing their own level of generalization and ability to apply prejudice.
  • heyheyhouhou 3mo ago
    I'm from a "southern" country and I lived in Germany for 10 years. My kids were born there. Last year we decided to move to my home country because of "too many things" but also fed up of feeling an immigrant. Few months ago I met a German family living around here in a coastal area. I asked them why they moved here and they answered me straight to my face "Because in Germany there are too many immigrants". I think the joke tells itself.
    • talon8635 3mo ago
      I’d be various curious what country you’re from that such people would feel comfortable moving to. But of course don’t share if you don’t want.
    • nubg 3mo ago
      where are you from?
    • DStiego 3mo ago
      I don't think it's an obvious joke. In general, you can totally be against the way immigration is handled in one place while being an immigrant elsewhere. The family you mentioned likely considered themselves different from the immigrants that they complained about. I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with these people I don't know, but the general point is fair.
    • jeroenhd 3mo ago
      > I asked them why they moved here and they answered me straight to my face "Because in Germany there are too many immigrants". This reminds me of those UK elderly living out their pensions in Spain voting for Brexit to reduce immigration. Thanks to outrage media, I think this public perception of immigration ruining everything is almost everywhere now.
  • deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
• schnitzelstoat 3mo ago
  I lived there for around 6 months like 15 years ago so perhaps it's changed a lot since then. But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Saturday just to make sure I could get the shopping done. I remember once I waved at my neighbours who were sitting eating in a common garden area and they acted super confused that I would wave to them. It didn't seem like an especially friendly place and there were so many rules about everything too, like just being able to take the rubbish or recycling out you had specific days and times.
  • ido 3mo ago
    Supermarket opening times are definitely not that restrictive (these days, but I don't recall it ever being like you mentioned & I moved to Berlin in 2013). The ones near me are usually open early morning till late evening (8-10pm), monday to saturday.
    • myrmidon 3mo ago
      There is a lot of regional variation, mainly between the south and the rest of the country. 8am to 8pm monday to saturday is typical for Bavaria (Munich, Nuremberg).
    • throw-the-towel 3mo ago
      The way you call 8pm "late evening" confirms GP's experience :)
      • ido 3mo ago
        8-10pm for the supermarkets near me & well later than that is night not evening :) It's certainly not 5pm is what I meant.
      • annzabelle 3mo ago
        Not Germany, but I live in a rural part of New Zealand. I noticed that several places in my town, including the chippy, had signs posted out front saying they were open til "late." Coming from the eastern US I assumed that late was at the earliest 11 or 12. Watch my surprise when I try to go get fish and chips at 8:45 and the chippy is already closed.
• superze 3mo ago
  Why would anyone wanna go to a country that pays them low abuses them and they end up alone with no friends because this is Germany.
  • bell-cot 3mo ago
    Various combinations of "they didn't know", "still better than the place they left", "their experience wasn't that bad", and "needed for their resume".
  • ramon156 3mo ago
    > and they end up alone with no friends This sounds like a personal issue. Is Germany at fault here?
    • rawbot 3mo ago
      It is a personal issue for sure. But people from "warmer" cultures often struggle with the "colder" culture, at least in Northern Germany. And that sometimes leads to people from other countries seeking or making friend group with other migrants.
    • IAmBroom 3mo ago
      > pays them low abuses them Sounds more like systemic prejudice than "OP lacks social skills".
  • stronglikedan 3mo ago
    not to mention taxes the shit out of them with little to no return on their investment
  • throw-the-towel 3mo ago
    In my case (not Germany but also in the EU), I just bought into European propaganda too much.
    • DStiego 3mo ago
      Can you give examples? I'm curious which of your beliefs have changed
• parheric 3mo ago
  I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are). The good part, from my experience the people here are great, friendly, and yeh it takes time to get to know them but it pays off in the long run. But professionally... it's complicated. So while people come here, work and stay for a few years, they're going to leave when they realise that despite their best efforts, they need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on). And this sadly affects applications for jobs (a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK), apply for apartments (which country is your last name from... automatic rejection), just to mention a few key cases that really affect immigration. i've lived+worked in 4 different countries on 3 continents and i think you always have to expect to adjust to the culture, it's not going to change for you, nor should it. But if you want to progress professionally (and Germany NEEDS tech-imports, the tech culture here is a disaster, it's embarrassing) you're going to have to promote these people into high positions, not just view them as "cheaper labour".
  • whateverboat 3mo ago
    I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.
    • 4gotunameagain 3mo ago
      This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.
      • inigyou 3mo ago
• CalRobert 3mo ago
  I like Germany, studied German a bit in college, etc but when my family and I decided to move somewhere that suited us because we could work from anywhere Germany really failed to impress. We ended up in the Netherlands which offers a a lot of the perks people associate with Germany (perhaps wrongly, good trains were one of the things we wanted) without as many of the downsides.
• anthonj 3mo ago
  I think there is also a chicken-egg problem in almost every country that doesn't use English as official language: If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study --> to live there you need a job --> back to start Different counties have different tolerances regarding how quick you pick up the local language. For Germany and France this tolerance is almost 0, for Netherlands it's much higher.
  • rawbot 3mo ago
    In Germany, if you are an non-software Engineer, you MUST have an excellent level of the language. I have not seen a single Engineering position that doesn't require C1.
    • anthonj 3mo ago
      I know some electronic and mech engineers with no german skills, but it's always in young startup in major cities.
  • prolly97 3mo ago
    Anecdotally I've noticed that among the coworkers I've had from other countries, the ones who manage to learn danish and stay, have generally been in areas with lower density of foreign workers. My theory is that in areas with lower densities of foreign nationals, you'd benefit more socially form learning the local language.
    • bossyTeacher 3mo ago
      This makes sense. By default, foreigners stick with their fellow countrymen pretty much everywhere. Not having them around gives foreigners a reason to socialise outside their bubble. I believe this is the reason why Denmark has the so called guetto laws.
  • aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
    > If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study I disagree: for many jobs, it is expected that you have a decent level of English, but at least in Germany, you are often not immersed a lot in English. So you have to get decent in English with barely any immersion. I thus have a feeling that because many Germans had to learn hard to get somewhat decent in English on their own, they have the same expectation on immigrants to learn really hard on their own to get good in German fast (without demanding immersion).
• lukeweston1234 3mo ago
  As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild. Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was being genuine or not, and that is not really a problem here. If you're into various hobbies, clubs, etc., Germany has really incredible communities and clubs for so many things, and they're very organized about this, it's quite nice. The nature is great, and I've really enjoyed exploring different areas. As for the negatives, it's clear in Germany that you're looking at buying into their system, for life so to speak. You don't find yourself getting equity, trading stocks, buying a home, etc. You generally are expected to work, keep your head down, and hopefully acquire an apartment where the rent won't increase while you support the social system (for the record, I am more than okay with paying my share, but I was shocked at the difference in take home pay, and particularly how it feels compared to the U.S). Buying a home is likely not going to be in the cards for most, and there is so much paperwork, painful and expensive driving courses, and strange decisions as well with starting your own business. I have for instance a few projects where I could be taking revenue, but I specifically am not as it would make my visa situation more complicated, and am instead waiting for a year or two. Germany is really not a convenience culture, I consistently find myself exhausted. This might sound stupid, but in the U.S, I can simply hop in a car and grab a reasonably healthy Chipotle bowl or similar, get enough protein and vegetables, etc. In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all. Additionally, the language is brutal, it's hard to explain just how exhausting it is to learn while you're working full time. I have probably spent ~600 hours practicing yet I am still only about an A2 speaking level, with my understanding generally being a bit higher. All in all, I'm happy I made the switch, it's been incredibly rewarding, but it truly is exhausting. I can see how this would add up, and I often think about how easy my life might be in the United States, and I miss this easy, casual life that's been replaced for something that really expects and demands so much from me, every single day and interaction.
  • inigyou 3mo ago
    Are you in a big city? There is so much takeout food everywhere in Berlin.
• sscaryterry 3mo ago
  My take: Nothing is funny in Germany? :)
• probably_wrong 3mo ago
  I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues. First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "most of them") you may very well wonder why staying here alone when you could be just as unemployed near your family. Second: I won't say that Germany is xenophobic (not even all AfD voters) but I will say it's unfriendly. Work example: I've worked in multiple places in German without language issues, and yet many jobs automatically disqualify me because they ask for "minimum C2", a rank I don't have and one that many native Germans wouldn't achieve either. Add less chances to make a social circle, inflexibility, not great weather, and a government that's constantly calling you lazy and entitled, and that's how you get depressed. The sad part is, Germany has all the pieces to be a great place to live that, for some reason, has decided to dismantle them all one by one.
  • polotics 3mo ago
    There are sclerotic forces at work in Germany. I sometimes wonder if the digestion of East-Germany hasn't somehow hurt a post-war rejuvenated Western&Southern German spirit. Maybe it's just post-traumatic-stress from the Russian occupation still lingering: 1989 is not that far, generations-wise. There is hope still... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw
    • Schlagbohrer 3mo ago
      East Germany was completely looted by West German corporations. There were east german workers who's final job was packing up all the machinery and inventory in their plant to ship to the west german company that had bought it all for €1, for example. Basically west germany did to the former east what private equity in the united states does to many companies- tear it down for scrap and sell it off. Then years later people blame the Ossies for just being backwards. If you want more information about this I highly recommend Katja Hoyer's book, "Beyond the Wall" about life in the east and the problems of reunifcation.
• Tade0 3mo ago
  As an outsider, but hailing from Germany's eastern neighbor and one of the largest sources of immigrants: Overall sentiment is that the juice ain't worth the squeeze any more. Back when my country became a full member of Schengen(2008) the ratio of GDP per capita between Germany and us was around 3.3x - salaries were roughly proportionally higher, so just about any job was worth moving there and potentially going through the hoops required to establish a permanent residence. Earlier, especially throughout the 90s that ratio didn't go below 5, so a sizeable number of people attempted to move to Germany by any means possible. Currently it hovers at around 2.1x and most of the discrepancy in salaries is focused on the trades. A specialist from Poland typically doesn't have access to higher tier salaries, so they don't really enjoy a different quality of life than at home, so they have no reason to move.
  • izacus 3mo ago
    Will this overall sentiment actually be confirmed with migration numbers if we check them?
    • SepiaSapient 3mo ago
      Seems like it's true [0], the net migration has fallen since the year 2000. I imagine that the people commute from Poland to DE is also a factor. [0] https://stat.gov.pl/en/topics/population/internationa-migration/main-directions-of-emigration-and-immigration-in-the-years-1966-2024-migration-for-permanent-residence,2,2.html https://stat.gov.pl/en/topics/population/internationa-migrat...
    • Tade0 3mo ago
      Who is "we"? Net migration of Polish citizens to Germany has been consistently negative for the past year: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Population/Migration/Tables/migration-month-02.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Society-Environment/Popula...
    • fransje26 3mo ago
      Yes.
• sinuhe69 3mo ago
  When people came to the country to work then retire somewhere else, isn’t it not a net benefit for Germany? Less burden on the social net, healthcare system etc. So what the Germans did is right, not wrong!
  • froh 3mo ago
    errr, no? when you work here for long enough you accrue pension benefits which are paid out wherever you live. if you retire abroad you spend the pension abroad. that's a net loss for the nation.
    • SepiaSapient 3mo ago
      Wouldn't the lack of medical expenditure win out against the loss of consumption from a pension?
      • sinuhe69 3mo ago
        Medical and long-term care expenses outweighs by a large margin the loss of consumption or tax revenue for retirees, especially for a welfare state like Germany. Many studies in Germany have showed exactly this constellation of cost-benefit.
        • froh 3mo ago
          interesting. I wonder how many move back to Germany when fragile though. requires citizenship though? unless your permanent residency stays valid when you move abroad. what would I have to use as search terms on Google scholar to find the many studies?
          • sinuhe69 3mo ago
            Generationsbilanz, AHV, Bernd Raffelhüschen
      • realityking 3mo ago
• ahf8Aithaex7Nai 3mo ago
  I am the son of a (Cuban) immigrant and a German woman. Once, the police asked me if I spoke German, probably because my hair is dark and my eyes are brown. Germany has a bias against “southerners”—the darker your skin, the worse it is. If your skin is light and your eyes are light-colored, you won’t even be perceived as an immigrant as long as you keep your mouth shut. But if you look southern or Asian, you’ll always be a “Kanake” or “Fitschi,” even if in every other respect you’re more German than most Germans. Racism here isn’t so severe that it leaves you with bruises, but you notice it in the little things. For example, this year I was looking for a new apartment with my partner, and when I first made contact, I used her German last name instead of my foreign one—just to be on the safe side. Whenever I do have to deal with the police—for example, because of a traffic accident or something similar—it seems like who gets blamed depends on skin color. If some guy named Hans Müller cuts me off, the police are still on his side. If I cut off someone named Achmed, strangely enough, they’re on my side. The last startup I worked for as a developer really played up its left-liberal, progressive image. Even so, the bosses were blond and blue-eyed, and the janitors were Black Africans. I could fill an entire book with impressions like these. All the bureaucratic hurdles mentioned in the article are probably intentional. The aim is to make it difficult for foreigners to come here and stay, because these people are not wanted here. In recent years, even politicians deep within the left-liberal spectrum have touted the fact that the so-called migration problem has been brought under control. In other words, they have adopted the right-wing premise that migration itself is a problem, rather than the way migrants are treated and integrated. The tragedy is that we’re running out of people of working age. We’re having too few children and are turning into an aging society. Over the next twenty years, this will hit us like a bus driving toward a cliff, while none of the passengers see the impending disaster. Immigration could be our salvation, but we just don’t want brown people. At the same time, German society is tearing itself apart through policies that lack solidarity. Life is meant to be made as difficult and harsh as possible for people with average incomes. The last remnants of the welfare state are being gradually dismantled over successive legislative terms. Everything is being ruined by austerity measures. There is no longer any awareness that collective investments in education and public infrastructure are, in fact, investments that will yield a real return later on—for example, in the form of well-educated people, transportation networks that allow goods to be transported smoothly, or nationwide internet access when you need it. Instead, everything must be milked dry by the private sector, or it’s simply left to rot (or both). Another comment here mentions that sclerotic forces are at work in Germany. I think that’s an apt description. It frustrates me immensely that society can’t pull itself together to take bold steps toward shaping a positive future. Instead, we have to watch as the country slowly withers away, while one idiot after another takes the reins of government to orchestrate the next round of bloodletting. It's gotten to the point where I've now lost faith in democracy. Things aren't getting better—they're just getting worse and worse. And all I can do is try to position myself in my personal life in such a way that I can hopefully protect myself and a few people around me from the worst damage caused by this decline.
• jdappletini 3mo ago
  This used to the case with the USA as well but it took them the last 40-50 years to reform. Maybe there's hope for Germany as well.
  • hunterpayne 3mo ago
    Wow, what a take...that says a lot about you and nothing at all about the US. I would guess that you are actually your own worst enemy.
• wojciii 3mo ago
  This reminds me that I got fired from a German company (operating in DK) because I asked too many questions and would not stop complaining about the software architecture which was terrible. The company culture was clashing with the Danish culture that I was used to and also I didn't give a fuck.
  • mettamage 3mo ago
    Is Danish culture more flat in its organization?
    • fallingbananna 3mo ago
      With how much cultural weight law of Jante has in Denmark, I would hope so.
    • wojciii 3mo ago
      It depends on the company. Small companies are usually flat, but my experience is that larger companies turn into departments/teams until someone realizes that more leadership on paper doesn't add any value.
  • markbravo0312 3mo ago
    if it makes you feel better, this is also my experience as an se in germany, (althought i didn't get fired). I am greeted with complete annoyance and sometimes even perpexlity when pointing out rather obvious flaws in software systems. Almost as if the mentality of "this is how we have always done it" has implanted itself even in here. However I have had the rare ocurrence where these did lead to solutions.
• froh 3mo ago
  guys, join a Verein. some Verein. any Verein. that's where Germans make friends when we're new in town.
  • lifestyleguru 3mo ago
    They joined verein but didn't notice it's two years contract with auto renewal, cancellation three months in advance by letter. Left the country after receiving Mahnbescheid. Have fun in this asshole-verein.
    • froh 3mo ago
      2y? sounds like some fitness sth scam. not the real thing. no clubs, where people share their hobby.
      • lifestyleguru 3mo ago
        Every service provider and every membership in Germany.
        • froh 3mo ago
          nah. I'm talking TuSpo 1846 or Post SV or Dt. Alpenverein or Gesangsverein whathaveyou or Tanzsportverein Blau Weiss or Freunde der Modelleisenbahn sth or LSVD or Kleingartenverein etc etc etc traditional clubs with a constitution and real self organized base democratic involvement and leadership you get the idea. not the "let's save some tax" scam pseudo clubs where you are not a voting member but just a service customer.
          • lifestyleguru 3mo ago
            Well too late mate, it can be now the nicest verein on the planet but it's too late.
• akudha 3mo ago
  All this discussion makes me wonder - is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc). It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.
  • deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  • joe_mamba 3mo ago
    > is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Not really anymore. All the good ponds have all been fished out by now. Housing is in short supply in every livable city in the western world and the job market is tight right now, so if you move there now, you're one, increasing labor competition for the locals, and two, rising housing prices for the locals. THe only locals happy with this arrangement are the corporation hiring you and the landlord taking your money. The world has min-maxed itself into oblivion that it's already reached saturation point. We're way passed the balance point, everything is fucked, there's no magic place on the planet where things are nice for everyone.
    • throw-the-towel 3mo ago
      This is spot on. Even if the opportunity is still better in the West than elsewhere, the trend is to the worse. It feels much more rewarding to have a less tasty slice of a growing pie, than a tastier slice that's shrinking. (And the others behave with less toxicity, to boot.)
    • smithoc 3mo ago
      It's too bad that no immigrants work in construction to build more housing. If we could import lower cost laborers to build houses, that would greatly improve the housing affordability problem, but sadly, every time I go past a construction site, all I see are white guys whose great-great-great grandparents came over on the Mayflower.
• malshe 3mo ago
  Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.
  • joe_mamba 3mo ago
    As someone who lived in the US briefly, I found Americans are just a lot more hospitable to foreigners, than Germans and most other Europeans in general. Probably because there's no such thing as an US-American ethnicity, but there definitely is at least one or more unique and very distinct ethnicities and cultures for every European country, and simply getting the passport as a foreign adult, does not also buy you into those clubs, you just got a piece of paper, not the culture and belonging the locals with ancestry there have. It's not something you can learn as an adult living in a big international city with lots of expats and international companies, it's something you get from growing up there surrounded by that culture and ethnic ingroup created by your ancestors. The equivalent for americans would probably be those whose ancestors were there before the civil war but that's a smaller % of the population today vs the more recent immigrants compared to Europe. Sure, there's as much immigration to Europe as well, per-capita as in the US, but a lot of it is undesired and the native Europeans have various cultural and bureaucratic glass ceilings to keep working class immigrants in the least desirable jobs, while they kept the more desirable governmental, academic and managerial jobs. Not knocking them for it, they're free to run their societies the way they see fit, but then they also shouldn't be surprised when, unlike in the US, the second or third generation migrants growing up in the ghettos who are full citizens now, decide to blow themselves up, shoot up a cafe or drive a truck through a crowd, because of how unaccepted and held down they feel by the native European society. The issue I see seems to be on how US and EU treat integration of migrants. In the US you ge equal opportunities and freedom to do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone, while in the EU you get endless strict rules and welfare which not only don't compensate the glass ceilings and isolation, it also pisses off the locals to see their high taxes going to foreigners who don't integrate. The other reason might be that migration to the US is more from Canada and latin america which is culturally similar to the US, while EU migration is mostly from africa and middle east which are very different culturally.
• gtirloni 3mo ago
  That is, if they can even get a work visa through the proper channels while following all requirements. I had read Kafka's The Castle before dealing with the German immigration office but that experience gave me a new perspective.
• lifestyleguru 3mo ago
  They got millennials from post-Communist countries after all transition periods for new EU members have passed sometime around 2011. Were already lucky because they didn't open the market straight away in 2004 like Ireland, UK, and Sweden. Germans were overconfident because their largest demographic boom was in their 40s back then. Treated that immigration wave like shit. They left. Germans worked really hard for every single nasty thing which is about to happen to them.
• ikut3hva 3mo ago
  Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep reading before judging). We have lived here for more than six years, and you know what? I still haven’t obtained either permanent residence or German citizenship simply because I don’t have a B1 certificate. So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here. I was honestly devastated when the officer told me that I was not eligible for permanent residence. That was also the moment when I started to feel that maybe I don’t actually need permanent residence in this country after all. Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. One bright thing is that maybe we’re still lucky. We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. We simply worked hard and played the game in a way that we believed would be sustainable in the long run. Whatever happens, we know there are still many other places we could go. Our children speak German natively, but they are also willing to go the extra mile to speak our mother tongue at home. If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked!
  • svara 3mo ago
    Genuinely happy to hear you're successful here! But, why would you expect there to be no drawback to not knowing the local language when moving to a foreign country?
    • ikut3hva 3mo ago
      Definitely, I had a good awareness of the language barrier from the day I arrived. To be fair, I have continued learning German—not because I want to pass the B1 examination and obtain permanent residence, but because I feel my children need to be protected and guided, and I want to teach them the same things they learn at school. Every moment I spend learning the language is a moment I invest out of love, so that I can be a better and more supportive parent.
• FinnLobsien 3mo ago
  I‘m German, but I no longer live in Germany, so I can’t relate to the experience of immigrating to Germany. I think a big part of the issue is a certain German presumptuousness. There’s a general sense that Germany is a prosperous, influential country. The reason for that must be that things are done correctly in Germany. I think this is an inherited attitude that doesn’t really correspond to reality anymore as systems are crumbling and a trip to many other European countries (including those Germans grew up to view as a barbaric hinterland or as holiday destinations) shows them that even small towns can have fast mobile internet, that you can pay by card at market vendors, and that the government can use computers.
  • xhevahir 3mo ago
    I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency." Frankfurt's airport was a tiring and frustrating experience, with long delays on the tarmac, at baggage claim, at the check-in counter, etc. One rest stop on the highway was half way dismantled, with restrooms filthy enough that everybody who got a look at them turned right around and went back to their cars. And so on. I was surprised, having expected that things would be generally more functional than in the States. (I will say that the roads were in a much better state of repair.)
    • TMWNN 3mo ago
      >I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency." I've heard it said that the idea that Germans are efficient is a myth. (The new Berlin airport is one example.) Germans are, rather, *rule followers*.
      • aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
        > I've heard it said that the idea that Germans are efficient is a myth. I wouldn't say this either. Many people in Germany do care about efficiency, but they have nearly completely resignated about systemic problems where they can change nothing.
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• sinoue 3mo ago
  >> About 60% of emigrants return to their home countries; 40% move on to destinations such as Spain, Switzerland, Italy and Croatia. So how many emigrants stay in Germany?
  • fallingbananna 3mo ago
    You might be thinking of immigrants. Emigrants are those that left the country... so by definition, no emigrants stay in Germany.
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• burner420042 3mo ago
  Somewhat off topic but since I see people discussing language proficiency using the CEFR system I'll ask. Which certification language test is most transferrable? I'm most interested in testing for Latam Spanish if possible. SIELE or DELE?
• anothereng 3mo ago
  immigrating to cold countries who are not used to immigration is not for the faint of heart
• thenoblesunfish 3mo ago
  What are the numbers for context? How many people come? How many leave? In what jobs do they work? How does that compare to other countries?
• ogou 3mo ago
  Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it can take 6 months to find even a basic flat. I am an American developer that lived there for many years and my co-workers were usually Turkish, Polish, Ukrainian, Iranian, Russian, Lebanese, and now Indian. It was rare to find an actual German coder. I had a hard time with German work expectations and management style. Also, their engineering approach is thorough but incredibly slow and over-built. The environment is hierarchy and credential based with little room for individual initiative or creative problem solving. I was used to improvising, experimenting, and thinking outside the box. It was not a good fit.
  • garbawarb 3mo ago
    Where do the German coders go though?
    • aleph_minus_one 3mo ago
      > Where do the German coders go though? Currently the market for software developers is very complicated in Germany. Basically, the answer is: if you have a job, you stay there (at least until hopefully in a few years the job market situation for software developers in Germany improves).
      • zanderwohl 3mo ago
        It's much the same in other countries.
    • fallingbananna 3mo ago
      AFAIK a lot of the highly skilled German emigrants go to Switzerland.
    • Tade0 3mo ago
• goodroot 3mo ago
  I'm a Canadian/German dual; a praire, hockey-playing, hard-O Canadian at that. There is nothing German about me, apart from some family myths. Every 8 or 9 years my passport renewal at the German embassy plays out like that scene in Inglorious Basterds, where Brad Pitt's character Aldo Rain tries to pose as Italian stunt-man Enzo Gorlami. Long German pre-amble "Err-ahh... err - nine." Pause and stare "Ok een Eenglish 'zen."
• nmstoker 3mo ago
  This feels rather naive in taking all the complaints at face value. The truth will be much more nuanced, and ultimately countries should be more welcoming to the genuine whilst far more discerning with the deceitful
• areznichenko 3mo ago
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• coolThingsFirst 3mo ago
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• prodmod 3mo ago
  My partner and I went to Germany and then left. We found that while they are desperate for skilled labor, they do essentially nothing to accommodate once people have come. Every step of the immigration process felt like another grift. Our Auslanderbörde appointment was borderline hostile, and our lawyer was a certified buffoon. Then daily life was beset with petty corruption. We couldn’t get an appointment at the burgeramt to register until we paid a fixer to go in on our behalf. Germany was full of petty annoyances and indignities that made it clear they want immigrants, but will not put in the effort to retain them. The U.S. is lately no friend to even skilled immigrants, but public government services are at least available in most major European and Asian languages. Go to the Netherlands instead. That’s what we would have done, if we had it to do over again.
  • romanhounds 3mo ago
    you could try China? I hear they are famously enlightened when it comes to people immigrating, becoming citizens, etc.
• giardini 3mo ago
  Germany is literally disappearing as a nation (too low a replacement rate and other problems). Pretty awful situation. Here's Peter Zeihan's assessment of Germany's future (or lack thereof): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmEhTFjQB1g
• aylmao 3mo ago
  I have friends who moved to Germany, so although I haven't been or experienced immigrating there myself, it's been in the conversation amongst my circles. What I hear about it is that it can feel closed and lonely. Germans are not necesarily mean, but they won't fully assimilate you into their circles easily, especially if you're not European. I also hear dating can be tough if you're not German or European. It's an important factor for choosing to stay somewhere permanently if you move there in your early 20s, like my friend did.
• silexia 3mo ago
  If German people move to African or Eastern countries, how long till they can get full citizenship rights? My understanding is never in most of these countries.
• hyfgfh 3mo ago
  PR and citizenship are different things, one is just to reduce the paperwork and allow some bare minimum benefits and the other is citizenship The only reason to push language requirements for PR, is to make it harder to obtain it, its politically driven
• InfinityByTen 3mo ago
  It's interesting how quickly any discussion about immigrant/expat life in Germany becomes about language. That has to account for something. After my tenure of 11 years in the country, my impression is that there is a deeper sense of "us" v/s "them"; the language is the most PC way to express it. If you're in the category of "us" you don't complain about the taxes or things being closed on Sundays, because you're supposed to "understand" that there's a welfare state (which has been a myth for a while now and cracks are showing up since covid). If you're in the "us", you don't claim bureaucracy is treacherous, because the language should have equipped you to fight it. You might be in the "us", if you believe with every bit of your being that rules and regulations is the best way to ensure everyone behaves properly and everything works efficiently. If you dare challenge (m)any of these and you don't speak German good enough, it's the language. If you speak the language, then you're not "integrated". Maybe that's immigration everywhere, but I feel in Germany, there is a rather narrow band you get to be in "acceptably".
  • rf15 3mo ago
    I have like a dozen different german friends, and it's nothing like you say: everyone in the country curses the bureaucracy, every sunday is like "oh let's quickly get something from the shops oh no wait it's sunday uuuugh" The taxes seem largely fine relative to the cost of living there, with people living in poorer regions at an advantage even due to the Freibetrag.
    • InfinityByTen 3mo ago
      Complaining about the bureaucracy is sure everyone's favourite trauma bonding exercise, but I never hear about the solution to it. It's in the political agenda, but the solution is almost always, let's form a committee to decide the agenda of the report about it that would be 1500 pages long and be done in 72 weeks from the day of conclusion of committee's proposal. I feel the issue is the mentality towards problem solving. Taxes are fine till Herr Merz isn't busy proposing a rug-pull on half of the things you learnt were supported here. Many of our "expat" friends faced this first hand when they lost their Kindergeld unplanned. There was a sudden hue and cry about dependents' insurance being scrapped, not sure of what's latest on it. And the English speaking, tech and finance working expats are not in poorer regions. I don't know all Germans and maybe it is my circle, but in general I felt if I didn't mirror their hobbies, opinions, and preferences, I wasn't going to have a chance to be on the same table as them or have a heart to heart conversation with them. It's almost like it's too inefficient use of their social time and I'm pretty sure I ain't alone.
• DStiego 3mo ago
  I see two big problems: 1. A "meta-problem": While many Germans agree that things are bad, people favour completely opposite solutions. My meta-solution to that would be decentralisation and letting more things be decided locally, but unfortunately Germans are united in favouring centralisation these days. 2. There's a strong superposition of "things are bad" and "we are still the best"; a high degree of defensiveness and stubbornness. This was accurately described as "presumptuousness" in another comment.
  • yuye 3mo ago
    >2. There's a strong superposition of "things are bad" and "we are still the best"; These can be reconciled by good old xenophobia: "Yes, things are horrible, but the way they do it is worse because it is not the way we do it"
• mstaoru 3mo ago
  I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points. At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are in English. There's an occasional German email every now and then but people will switch. When we go to a "team building" retreat, all the same teammates that happily chatted with us expats in English just switch to German 100%, full stop. You can come and stand at the edge of a group chatting in German and they will look at you and continue, knowing you stand there not understanding, without batting an eye.
  • musha68k 3mo ago
    I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice. In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.
    • mstaoru 3mo ago
      Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? You cannot join a fluent conversation without being fluent. You cannot become fluent without practicing.
      • musha68k 3mo ago
        You need to listen / interject and show that you are making an effort, then people usually will meet you there and you can even fall back to English again if you have to but then steer back towards target language. Learning opportunities.
  • moezd 3mo ago
    This. And don't forget the occasional refinement meetings during which you think you're making a group decision but your manager and the other senior (both German, speaking German, having spoken in private without your awareness) already decided on many things, even though they acknowledge that you're the more experienced person in the room. So you're treated as a rubber stamp and three months in when you have an objection because clearly you're walking into a sunken cost, will be shown ADRs (in Denglish) basically where everything's already decided in their favour.
• Ozzie_osman 3mo ago
  Anecdotal and more for unskilled than skilled workers, but having traveled to Germany a bunch, I found that taxi drivers and delivery drivers seem pretty unhappy there. They mention not feeling accepted, feeling constantly looked down upon, etc. There's a bit of that in every country, but generally, the immigrants I've found in Germany seem a lot less happy than the ones I've met in other countries.
• tyiz 3mo ago
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• jillesvangurp 3mo ago
  I've been living in Berlin for about seventeen years. My German isn't great but usable in an emergency. I get by with it. Most work related stuff is English. Bureaucracy is an annoyance in this country. But the flip side is that if you persist, you'll manage. It's also not something that's necessarily a lot better in other big countries. But Germany could do a lot better by just moving a lot of the key processes online, cutting down on asking for the same information over and over again via paper forms, and speeding up decision processes. That's slowly happening. With AI translations, doing things in German (or any language) is a lot easier these days for foreigners. Also making sense of the complex processes with AI is helpful. Insistence that everybody should learn German is understandable from a nationalistic point of view. But you get quite far without that. Easier than ever now. Germany could be a bit more accommodating for this. And the reality in factories, on construction sites, etc. is that you hear a lot of other languages being spoken. Lots of eastern Europeans active in the construction industry, for example. And lots of nurses and doctors from abroad are active in their hospitals. Packages are being delivered by people from India and Pakistan. And of course German companies that sell to foreign companies have to deal with the notion that their customers mostly won't be speaking German. Germany is already a lot more international than it might like to admit. But it's undeniably true that you need to speak German in order to interact with especially older Germans and their companies. They simply don't speak anything else. Kind of weird because many of them are super dependent on import/export markets and yet they are mortally afraid of having to be in a meeting with non German speakers. I've experienced this several times. However, the baby boom generation is retiring and younger generations are already much more internationally focused. Most younger college educated people here speak English at this point. It's not that much of a problem as it used to be. And even talking to people is getting easier now that we have AI translations and transcriptions. I've worked my way through a few meetings in Denglish. Ugly, but it works and if you have a shared business goal, people get more flexible. Germany has been in and out of a recession for several years now and it's working population is on track to shrink and things like its pension and healthcare system are becoming a problem financially. It will need to work smarter to get out of that and that probably is going to require working with people that won't be speaking German from outside of Germany. Easy fix for that recession is just embracing the future. Many of Germany's problems are of its own making and very fixable.
• drdrek 3mo ago
  Emigrating is hard. Expect language issue, culture issue, bureaucracy issues. Other countries are not your country but with a different language, living somewhere is not the same as visiting as a tourist. Emigrating is a generational project, you will forever be a foreigner, your children will be immanent children and only your grandchildren will be true locals. This is not a government issue, right wing issue, racism, or what not its just a fact of life. Be prepared for it when making the decision.
• aforwardslash 3mo ago
  One of the reasons is that Germany is not a friendly country for non-german speakers (and/or if you dont have the right profile); I've worked for a while in both Berlin and Munich. In berlin you get away with english, except anything official - from opening a bank account to any interaction with the city council or government services. They will go out of your way to make you feel unwelcome if you are not a fluent german speaker. In Munich is even worse - in many "non-immigrant neighbourhoods" they wont even acknowledge you if you speak english (eg. In the supermarket), though often they understand it perfectly. Learning german is not easy, but it is absolutely essential if you want to call it home; Id suggest anyone planning a move to start learning beforehand - the idea that you will "wing it by talking to people" is not enough.
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  • ItsYan 3mo ago
    Tja, Nie im Leben würde ich zu Bayern gehen. I'm surprised that despite its claim to openness and tolerance, cities like Hamburg, Bremen or Hannover are not capitalising on this.
    • aforwardslash 3mo ago
      Lol. Honestly, I love Munich, but I totally understand why certain movements galvanized there :p its easy to be on a high horse on a rich land - if something is not right, must be someone else's fault.
• sajithdilshan 3mo ago
  This is a very sensitive topic. I think anyone moving to a different country has to learn the native language. That's the biggest barrier for proper integration and to feel fully at home in a new country. Whenever something is broken, needs help or in an emergency one cannot expect to have an English speaking person on the other-side. That being said, German is not an easy language to learn. In my experience, native German speakers are quite patient and help you with practice compared to let's say French, still it would take ages to be fluent in German unless you're studying the language full time. However, if you're a skilled worker you would be working in an environment where English is used and the amount of time you'd get to learn German would be way less. In that aspect I think Anglosphere is way more attractive for migrants to settle down and it's natural people would come to Germany, work, save some money, travel around Europe and move on to US, UK, Australia, etc. to settle down.
• the_70x 3mo ago
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• zexias 3mo ago
  Hihi people o/ my two cents here... So, I have lived in Frankfurt for a couple of years now, and after talking with so many other expats, I think I have come up with a solid reason why this happens and why I am also thinking about leaving Germany. My TLDR is that Germany makes it really hard to settle down. When you are a skilled worker and you decide to come to Germany, you feel that things in your home country are holding you back, so you move here to step up, to upgrade, to move forward. And that is not what you find here. - You drove in your previous country? Good luck getting your driver's license in Germany (I know people living in the Netherlands and Italy who have been driving since their first month there), and good luck paying so much for parking. And then, you might say: "but use public transportation". And I reply, good luck going for a dinner with your gf when it 0 degrees outside and raining to get the metro that has less availability (because it is evening already) or they are doing some maintenance in the line. In my experience here, public transportation is only good when is working hours. In Frankfurt, after working hours they reduce itinerary of a metro and during weekends - hahahaha - you would cry with me. - You want to buy a house? Good luck finding a bank that wants to finance you without a credit history in Germany (a friend already bought a house in the Netherlands, btw). Want to rent a place? Good luck finding someone to rent their house to someone who just arrived in Germany. - Do you have doubts or problems with bureaucracy? So cute... good luck with that too. Workers in public service do not speak English, and those who do don't want to speak English with you (and that is with me living in Frankfurt - one of the most international cities in Germany). Not even in the Ausländerbehörde do they speak English. (I am ok if the waitress in the cafeteria doesn't speak it, but not in the Ausländerbehörde). - Then you think: "ok, let's learn the language...". Germany is the most expensive country to learn its own language that I've ever seen. I studied in France and they were teaching French for free there. All the free/cheap German courses here are not for skilled workers, because with a skilled worker's wage, you are above the threshold for social benefits and all the cheap alternatives are out of the question. Then, you might say: "but you can learn online". Fair point, but how do you expect people to connect with your country by learning online? For me, it was way cheaper to pay a professional teacher in my home country online to have individual classes than to attend a German class here. - You have a problem in your house? Good luck waiting years for it to be "solved". I have full experience with this: we had an issue with the roof of the building and it literally took them more than 2 years to solve it. Because the roof belongs to the building and not the apartment, it is not the landlord's responsibility, and you need to find out who is responsible for it, etc. And, on top of all this, Germany is not a cheap country to live in, and the infrastructure is far from ideal: trains are always late and expensive, and you cannot rely on DB anymore. Internet is super expensive and slow (we have a bunch of data centers in Frankfurt, but you have no fiber connection in the houses here). Energy is stupidly expensive now (due to German politicians eating shit for breakfast). So... overall, I think skilled workers think about leaving after some years because small issues stack up, and in the end, you are not able to build a life here. And I don't even want to get into the topic of making friends here, maybe in another post.
• ragazzina 3mo ago
  It's interesting that the B1 language requirement is discussed here mostly in terms of fairness. Is it reasonable or not, to require an immigrant to speak the language of the country they're immigrating to? Whether it's fair or not is trumped by how _easy_ it is. You can get a B1 German certification in a matter of months with SRS and cheap tutors online. This is a B1 English question: “This is a nice bathroom.” “Yes. It’s the one _ we’ve just redecorated.” a) when b) who c) which
• sourav276 3mo ago
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• Otterly99 3mo ago
  The situation is kind of similar in my country (France). My partner and I lived together in Czech Republic for 7 years where I was working as a scientist (EU to EU, pretty much no paperwork involved). She is american and obtained a "partner of EU citizen" long stay permit. We decided to move back to France and now we have to deal with bureaucracy and it is exhausting. There are many paths by which an non-EU citizen can get residency in europe and it includes: - Student visa (9 months, needs to apply long in advance) - Entrepreneur (need to pitch a business, needs 30k€ of savings) - Refugee - Married (the easiest one) - Family member of EU citizen (only applies when the EU citizen is not native to the country you apply to) - Family member of native citizen We had to apply to the last one, because we only have a civil union (it's a french thing called PACS and it's not recognized as a "proper" union for permits). We also needed to prove that we had lived together for more than a year (which we also had to do in Czech Republic) so that she could get her one year permit. The fees are opaque (the website says 350€ of tax + 100 € of processing fee but the final bill was 650€). Any document must be translated (cost us around 1000€) and official documents must be verified by apostille (which we learned when we celebrated our civil union in at the french embassy in Czech Republic). At the end of her permit, she will need to validate an A2 level of profciency in french to apply for a multi year permit (2 to 4 years). Once she has lived 5 years here, she can apply for a permanent residency if she has a B2 level, pass a civil exam and show proofs of involvement in civic life. All of this to say that the requirements to immigrate in Europe require either a lot of money or a lot of dedication. This really changed my view on the whole "Europe has free border, anybody can get in to steal our job" rhetoric.
  • anothereng 3mo ago
    you're comparing people who enter ilegally with people who follow the legal process. It's hard to immigrate legally
• hansvs 3mo ago
  Wow, lots of generalisations are being made in the comments. I'm German and have lived in the south-west for most of my life. I hope it goes without saying that Germany is a big country, both by space and population. We have some very dense urban areas (Frankfurt, Munich, and Berlin come to mind) but also very open "arsch der welt" hinterlands with villages of 100 people or fewer. This creates huge diversity in standard of living conditions as well as life experiences (and expectations). Some places are better than others, this isn't unusual. Thus, many experiences that people have written about can't be applied with any certainty to large swaths of the populace. Regarding the DW article, yes language is a constraint and does cause issues with finding/keeping a job and integrating into one's area. Believe it or not, this can also affect us locals too [1]. The bureaucracy is often _difficult_ and people behind the counter can be unhelpful. We definitely suffer from institutional inflexibility, leading to absurd situations, for example with our population of economically active refugees who will probably be forced to leave, which will lead to an even bigger job market deficit and possible economic decline [2], or how we blunder large scale projects like Stuttgart 21 (or 35 or 70?!?!)[3]. The German concept of identity and unity is also very complex [4,5], and sadly this reflects somewhat on our interaction with migrants. Couple this with complex domestic and international economic and political issues [6,7], and we now have a situation that is far from ideal for people coming here to work and build a life. All this can be difficult to deal with for you who are planning to come here or those who already live here, and I really wish that weren't the case. Please don't be discouraged, we want and need you, for more than just helping to prop up our economy and welfare state (by the way, thank you!). I believe that the diversity of experiences and ideas you bring is a boon to our future. [1]: https://archive.is/20240627085213/https://www.faz.net/aktuell/karriere-hochschule/dialekt-im-beruf-ist-zuweilen-mit-vorurteilen-behaftet-17284236.html https://archive.is/20240627085213/https://www.faz.net/aktuel... [2]: https://p.dw.com/p/539wt https://p.dw.com/p/539wt [3]: https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/s21-verspaetung-folgen-quartier-rosenstein-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/stuttgart/s... [4]: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/auf-der-suche-nach-der-deutschen-identitaet-102.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/auf-der-suche-nach-der-deutsc... [5]: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article13813483/Nationalstolz-Warum-sich-die-Deutschen-selbst-nicht-moegen.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article13813483/Nati... [6]: https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/deutschland-ist-laut-einer-aktuellen-forsa-umfrage-zerstritten-67-prozent-bewerten-soziales-miteinander-als-eher-schlecht_91f19c42-6c5a-4717-bf4b-f56be4ba19f0.html https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/deutschland-ist-lau... [7]: https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/research_institute/hri-konjunkturprognose-deutschland-rutscht-erneut-in-die-rezession/100230944.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/research_institute/hri-...
• spwa4 3mo ago
  Why? Simple: visit a restaurant, especially one by the highway with truckers, in southern Germany, with your girlfriend/wife. But one in a town will do, just speak English, or French. It will be entirely clear after that. Hell, I doubt you'll make it past the restaurant's door before it becomes clear.
• Fire-Dragon-DoL 3mo ago
  As a European and Canadian, I find very painful the fact that in the EU you MUST know English, yet there is no country with English as primary language in the whole EU. There is also no way to live in a country by knowing only English, so effectively you need to know 2 languages by default to be part of the EU. I know two languages and for me learning English was a terrible experience,it took so many years and so much effort, if I could get by with just one, I would.