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This is a major challenge to Microsoft. A 13-inch Surface Laptop costs $899 [1], that's 50% more than an equivalent MacBook! And even at that higher price the S

This is a major challenge to Microsoft. A 13-inch Surface Laptop costs $899 [1], that's 50% more than an equivalent MacBook! And even at that higher price the Surface Laptop doesn't have a good screen: it uses 150% scaling (as opposed to the ideal 200%) which means you have subtle display artifacts. Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. I am typing this on an Lenovo Yoga, it has decent screen and keyboard, but the touchpad is horrible. Samsung makes good laptops but my keyboard gave out after just 2 years. Most other laptop makers have horrible industrial design. Dell XPS 17 was pretty good, but now they have weird keyboard. The best laptop is now significantly cheaper than the horrible ones. Incredible achievement by Apple, and a major challenge to Windows laptop makers. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/surface-laptop-13-inch/8mzbmmcjzqv3 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/surface-lapt...

NietTim 7mo ago
This is not primarily competing with the surface line of laptops, this is mostly competing with chromebooks which dominate schools. That's a completely different segment of devices.
- runjake 7mo ago
  I am in education and speak to others at the (US) national level on a near-daily basis. This doesn't compete with Chromebooks in schools at all. - Chromebooks in EDU cost approximately $290 (+- $10) per unit. - The Neo costs $499 per unit for schools. - For the cost of 10 Neos, I can buy 17 Chromebooks. Yes, this is a numbers game. The goal is every student has a device. - Schools using Chromebooks to log in. If you want reliable Google logins on macOS, you have an additional big spend up front, along with per-seat licensing costs. - This doesn't even factor in MDM and app cost comparisons.
  - intrasight 7mo ago
    [flagged]
  - NietTim 7mo ago
    So what segment does it target in your opinion? The "surface" market is minuscule and compared to the edu market irrelevant, the "vendor lock in" angle with the google logins can easily change over night as it did with microsoft.
    - runjake 7mo ago
      > So what segment does it target in your opinion? - Low end consumer - College students - People who have a desktop computer, but want a cheap portable for on-the-go. > The "surface" market is minuscule Probably so, but then again, I see a lot of Surface devices out and about and they are fairly popular with non-teacher education staff. While they aren't competing with Chromebooks or Apple on volume, I'd bet they're doing well.
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
  - newsclues 7mo ago
    Not every school is cash limited. Many schools have lots of money to invest in technology. Some schools will gladly pay more.
    - runjake 7mo ago
      Truth. I've seen some of them with carts full of MacBook Pros. But these schools are a small fraction of the overall population. It should also be noted that Washington state schools are still generally heavily Microsoft and Windows, despite Google's dominance.
      - newsclues 7mo ago
        Similar to how MS helps their local schools, I think Apple does for schools in California.
  - tim333 7mo ago
    Even so I imagine your average person needing something for education would consider both. The Neo may cost more but from my past experience of Apple stuff they will likely be better made.
    - runjake 7mo ago
      Certainly possible. But, in the US consider that Google and "one-to-one" Chromebooks are generally dominating and the curriculum more or less requires extensions and setting. As an example, my kids try to do school work on one of the house Macs, but there's too many roadblocks so they just use their Chromebooks. I used to buy my kids Chromebooks for school, but, since the pandemic, the school issues them, so I haven't bought any since. > Apple stuff they will likely be better made It depends on what you mean. Apple uses higher quality parts and is more sleek. Chromebooks are more durable, take more abuse, are very repairable, and parts are cheap and plentiful. These are keys to schools. We're at a point where schools cycle out old models and either keep a bunch around, or strip parts from them, because some parts are interchangeable between generations.
  - lm28469 7mo ago
    I saw this today: https://www.reddit.com/r/KidsAreFuckingStupid/comments/1rk3tz5/absurd_amount_of_chromebooks_broken_by_students/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KidsAreFuckingStupid/comments/1rk3t... If apple products are even a tiny bit more durable I wouldn't be surprise if it's more cost effective to switch to the neo for a lot of institutions
    - prcrstntr 7mo ago
      I don't think institutions will care much about the enhanced durability since they treat laptops as disposable units anyway. Apple can only complete if they provide bulk deals which bring the overall cost in line with chromebooks.
      - runjake 7mo ago
        No, we really care about durability. The amount of damage is crazy. So many units are damaged that it would be cost-prohibitive to dispose and replace them. The screenshot in that Reddit post more or less looks like ours. Schools generally repair these, if they have the technicians. And everyone is cannibalizing parts out of last generation models. It's like a Jawa shop. > Apple can only compete if they provide bulk deals which bring the overall cost in line with chromebooks. I've never seen, nor heard of Apple providing competitive prices, even in quantities of ~10,000 units. They haven't even gotten close and they've largely given up on the idea of Macs as a standard K12 school device. ~$250 iPads are still strong in low primary grades and special education, though.
        joezydeco 7mo ago
        Can confirm Apple gave up on education. If they really cared you'd be able to have multiple accounts/profiles on iPad, and that's still not a thing that exists. I did a major PTA fundraiser to buy iPads for our classrooms and they were pretty much never used because of this.
        k3nx 7mo ago
        Have you seen the classroom app? It allows for multiple profiles on an iPad. I've never used it, so I don't know how well it works. https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/shared-ipad-overview-dep9a34c2ba2/web https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/shared-ipad-overv...
  - ben7799 7mo ago
    The only problem with Chromebooks and the whole Google educational toolchain is it ruins school! My kid is on it, every kid hates it and every teacher hates it. You just can't argue with the pricing. I'm amazed at how bad everything seems to old fashioned paper text books. Every time I help my son I'm amazed how bad it all is. Horrible tiny screen that looks like is from 2000 and then the software is all designed for some Googler who has 2x 30" 5k displays. The usability is atrocious.
    - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
      Chromebooks are the SaaS of hardware where the user is not the buyer. No one says “I would love to have a Chromebook at home” any more than they desire to run Salesforce at home.
    - nolist_policy 7mo ago
      A Chromebook at the same price point will get you similar if not better specs, 14" 16:10 FHD IPS display, convertible with touchscreen and pen input, backlit keyboard and 10h+ battery runtime.
  - jonplackett 7mo ago
    How long do those chrome books last though? I reckon even an iPhone pro is better value than an average android phone. Same with iPad vs Android tablet. Because they last 3 possibly 4 times longer. A decent Apple laptop purchased 4 years ago is still basically a top notch laptop. Build quality is amazing. Resale value is still very high.
    - orthogonal_cube 7mo ago
      Physical durability will play a major factor here. If schools are expected to provide the Chromebooks then it will all boil down to the level of abuse/neglect the hardware can handle. Replacing a low-resale value $250 Chromebook that is equally sensitive to being dropped, exposed to liquids, or having debris get into hinges and keyboards will be heavily favored over a $500 MB Neo. The Neo’s processor and storage may have better lifetime but it doesn’t mean anything if the equipment ends up bricked. Schools in affluent areas may favor these for reasons you state. Judging on how students treat textbooks though should demonstrate how short the lifespan would turn out to be.
      - al_borland 7mo ago
        Framework might be appealing as well. Being able to have parts on hand that can easily be swapped out sounds a lot better/easier than dealing Apple repair practices. The Framework Laptop 12[0] starts at $549 and has touchscreen/pen options. But that price goes up to $799 to have it pre-built with an OS on it, which schools would want, unless building your laptop and installing the OS is part of the curriculum. I wonder if having the kids do this would make them take better care of it, because they had a hand it making it? [0] https://frame.work/laptop12 https://frame.work/laptop12
    - magnio 7mo ago
      > Because they last 3 possibly 4 times longer. An iPhone Pro is 3 times more expensive than an average Android phone too. If you buy Android flagships after 2022, they also last 4-6 years.
      - 7mo ago
  - blactuary 7mo ago
    Not having to make a Google login would be a big benefit to me. Google is getting their data early
    - briandear 7mo ago
      Completely agree. I hate kids being stuck in a Google ecosystem. Apple’s classroom app is really good.
  - zarzavat 7mo ago
    If the school is wealthy enough to provide free laptops, then you're right they're going to go for the cheapest option. But if the school expects the parents to provide laptops, then the parents are more likely to choose this.
  - harshaw 7mo ago
    somewhat off topic, but I really am not sure that adding chromebooks to every school has made education better. hard to block youtube when they bring these home (I know you can, but the average person can't).
  - GeekyBear 7mo ago
    The build quality of a $300 Chromebook is laughable.
  - jen20 7mo ago
    Not to disagree too much with your assessment, one point stands out: > The Neo costs $499 per unit for schools. We don't actually know this. It does at the level individual student purchasing themselves, but I'd imagine there is a substantial bulk discount for educational establishments. That is not a new trend for Apple, it dates back to the Apple II.
    - runjake 7mo ago
      I do because we asked Apple about Neo pricing. We do because this is historically the norm. Schools pay roughly the same as the "college student" pricing, aside from the occasional deals they toss us.
  - bob1029 7mo ago
    > This doesn't even factor in MDM and app cost comparisons. I would argue that Apple has a better MDM ecosystem if there are any kind of policy constraints beyond one laptop per child.
    - LunaSea 7mo ago
      There used to be FleetSmith which was a very simple Apple-only MDM system. It was great, very simple to use but still had all the features you needed. They were acquired by Apple who then promptly killed the product.
  - alwillis 7mo ago
    > This doesn't compete with Chromebooks in schools at all. Of course, it does. The price difference is small enough now that the Neo is in the running. There's no doubt the build quality is going to be much better than a Chromebook. I worked in education for 20+ years; that $499 is just the starting price; a school or school district that buys them in quantity is going to get an even better price. Sure, a Chromebook is better than nothing, and if you’re an impoverished school district, you may have no choice but to go with Chromebooks. But if there's an opportunity to get Macs at this price point, most school districts are going to take it. Don't underestimate Apple's sales and support infrastructure. Many of the schools in the US are in areas with Apple retail stores, where sales and support work out of. It's hard to imagine a school committee going with Chromebooks instead of Mac Neos for a little more money and likely better support. The parents aren't IT experts, but they know Apple is a trusted brand, and Macs are "better".
    - asadotzler 7mo ago
      >a school or school district that buys them in quantity is going to get an even better price. Citation? I've read and heard others say this is the opposite of the truth, that Apple never gives bulk discounts. Heck, there's someone in this very discussion saying the same with actual prices paid in their comment showing real first hand experience and yet you come in here with a hand wavy unsupported claim that Apple gives breaks for bulk buys.
      - alwillis 7mo ago
        > I've read and heard others say this is the opposite of the truth, that Apple never gives bulk discounts. When I worked in higher education at an Ivy Plus university for 14 years, we were able to get discounts. We also had a campus store where we sold and repaired Macs. I understand that higher ed is quite different from K-12. It also seems like sales reps have much less leeway now than they used to. I have no doubt there's been multiple reorganizations, etc. and things could be completely different now. It's not just discounts; even if you pay the normal education price, Apple could throw in some extras (software licenses, AppleCare, etc.) to sweeten the deal.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - rpcope1 7mo ago
    The better question is why on earth do school kids need computers, especially anything beyond a robust desktop PC that they use extremely sparingly? No one ever seems to be able to give a good answer as to why we do this to ourselves, especially elementary school kids other than parents/teachers/schools are some combination of overwhelmed, lazy, or just outright massively derelict.
- nobody_r_knows 7mo ago
  [dead]
- adrr 7mo ago
  It needs a touch screen for elementary schools kids. Fine for older kids.
  - post-it 7mo ago
    We started using computers with keyboards in class in grade 2-3.
    - rbanffy 7mo ago
      Current school laptops also have touchscreens for drawing and other activities. It’s a cheap feature.
      - mbreese 7mo ago
        Pen input is the one factor that forced one of my kids to a Windows laptop for school (a Surface Pro). It was a required feature for his school. Seeing how much he uses it for note taking, I get it. So yes, drawing is a key feature for schools. Another school uses iPads with keyboards for the same purpose, so I'm not sure where the school market is for these. Maybe only older kids, but a lot of edu-tech is expecting some kind of touch/pen input.
        rbanffy 7mo ago
        It might be a fine laptop when you are on the move. I have an educational Lenovo for that purpose, but I would appreciate a Mac for that same use. When I need more power away from my desk I can use the MacBook Pro or my Lenovo T series (both a lot heavier than I’d like). I just wish the Mac had 16GB of RAM but my tiny Lenovo has 8 and it’s been working OK so far - I haven’t even set up a proper swap partition and it’s running on zram.
  - sreekanth67 7mo ago
    wow. are elementary school kids using chromebooks? my kids is in pre-K this year. i dont know about the elementary school chromebook thing.
- free_bip 7mo ago
  I'm not sure that's true given that Chromebooks can be had for one third the price.
- rbanffy 7mo ago
  It might be aimed at Chromebooks, but it’s also a low-end Surface killer. The only thing I don’t like is the 8GB memory. And it could have the black keyboards of the other Apples.
- zitterbewegung 7mo ago
  At this point the Macbook Neo is in competition with Chromebooks, Microsoft and the third party market for older Macbook Airs with M1s
- threatofrain 7mo ago
  This is not competing against Chromebooks, which have very little reach outside of institutions. The Macbook Neo will likely have very widespread appeal for anyone looking for what used to be a netbook.
- jimbokun 7mo ago
  It could compete well in both. Looks like Apple has a product that competes with Chromebooks on price and competes with Surface on performance at the same time. At least close enough on both counts to create headaches for anyone trying to sell either.
timpera 7mo ago
The ARM64 Surface Laptop is great and definitely matches the MacBook Air's quality, but yeah, there's no way it is competitive with the new Neo offering from Apple at current prices. I hope this leads to a general decrease in price for laptops, but with the RAM crunch I don't see that happening…
- jjtheblunt 7mo ago
  the surface laptop has an excellent screen (2880x1920 i believe), and the macbook neo is lower resolution than apple's made in years, however.
  - dmonitor 7mo ago
    What about color quality? I've used high resolution laptops with shitty washed out colors, but one thing I've always appreciated about Apple's displays is their vibrance.
  - alwillis 7mo ago
    The Neo’s display is 219 pixels per inch, which is virtually the same as the Air’s 224 ppi.
  - lateforwork 7mo ago
    Not true. 13-inch Surface Resolution: 1920 x 1280 (178 PPI) 15-inch Surface Resolution: 2496 x 1664 (201 PPI) See https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop#tech-specs-uid66f1 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-lapt... Compare that to my Lenovo Yoga 14-inch: 2944 x 1840 (239 PPI)
    - jjtheblunt 7mo ago
      ahhh....good catch. i used the wrong name: i meant surface pro 13, which has the detachable keyboard. yeah, it's odd that the surface laptops are lower res.
  - jjtheblunt 7mo ago
    too late to edit: i was thinking surface pro (the detachable keyboard) not surface laptop with attached keyboard and weirdly low res screens, compared to the surface pro series.
rk06 7mo ago
all apple needs, to kill surface laptops entirely, is to enable windows to run on m series laptops without issues. I don't know why the downvotes, maybe someone can chime in if there is more to surface laptop? because i am using one laptop, and much prefer to use windows on M4 macbook pro instead.
- TingPing 7mo ago
  I assume you’re downvoted because Microsoft has to want that.
- raverbashing 7mo ago
  Who cares about Windows anymore? Kids are happy with iOS/Android devices Google docs solves 90% of Office use cases
  - rk06 7mo ago
    many people do. i work for Microsoft and don't have option to use mac os
    - raverbashing 7mo ago
      Well, last I checked most people don't work for MS so I reckon their experience might be a bit different
  - NetMageSCW 7mo ago
    Google Docs might handle 50% of people who use Office, but I doubt if it handles 25% of Office use cases. Few use every feature of Office but someone uses every feature of Office and all those power user cases that are different can’t be handled by Google Docs. Or even Web Office.
- rbanffy 7mo ago
  I’m not sure that many people want Windows badly enough they would get an Apple device and remove the original OS so they could run Windows. From my personal experience, Widows users in general don’t mind Windows, but, definitely, nobody I have ever met finds it more desirable than macOS.
kccqzy 7mo ago
> it uses 150% scaling (as opposed to the ideal 200%) which means you have subtle display artifacts I agree with you, but I’m afraid Apple doesn’t agree with us. The recent MacBooks do not use 200% scaling out of the box anymore. It is a setting that only nerds use. I have no reason to believe that out of the box the default settings on this MacBook Neo will use 200% scaling either.
- manwe150 7mo ago
  I think macOS applications feel like they have mostly updated to use the native resolution, so arbitrary scaling works great now. My comparative experience with a new Windows laptop is how I remember macOS felt when they first made high density screens many years ago: lots of render bugs all over, and every program has to be re-opened when I plug in an external screen to be usable at the new resolution
  - kccqzy 7mo ago
    Most macOS applications now support rendering at 1x and 2x. And arbitrary scaling is done by the OS not by apps.
    - rbanffy 7mo ago
      That’s the ideal. Apps shouldn’t concern themselves with pixels. It’s the OSs job to know the hardware the machine uses.
      - odo1242 7mo ago
        This leads to visible moire patterns at non-integer scalings, though
        rbanffy 7mo ago
        We should probably have nicer scaling algorithms that account for Moirés. Also, when you see a Moiré, that’s because you are scaling a bitmap that has periodic dithering. These should be more rare now, and a good opportunity to replace them with vector images with periodic patterns that are tuned for physical dimensions rather than pixel count.
pjmlp 7mo ago
Not really, because Surface isn't what most folks buying PCs get. And those prices don't compute in many European countries, Africa, and most likely other regions as well.
- blazarquasar 7mo ago
  Surface Laptop is 1099€ vs 699€ for the Macbook Neo in Germany. Macbook Neo is also 219ppi vs Surface Laptop at 178ppi. We’ll see about performance, but i’d expect the macbook to be on par or better.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Except most Germans don't buy Surface Laptops, and there are much cheaper options with 8 GB, naturally they lack a glowing apple to show off at Starbucks. It is also actually 800 euro if you want a proper SSD storage in 2026. And as mentioed, get out of German economy, into the southern and eastern countries, or over the Mediterrean to see who gets a Neo outside the well in life families, or maybe bundled with a cable TV contract bound to five years.
    - rbanffy 7mo ago
      > they lack a glowing apple to show off at Starbucks. If your MacBook has a glowing apple, you might be running Snow Leopard. You need to upgrade like now.
      - pjmlp 7mo ago
        Thankfully I don't own any, I rather have computers with replaceable parts, more environment friendly, thus not something I need to worry about.
        NetMageSCW 7mo ago
        what computers are you buying that are more environmentally friendly? The MacBook Neo is 60% from recycled materials and Apple offers free recycling for all their products. How do you recycle your old parts?
wilsonnb3 7mo ago
The surface laptop is a competitor to the MacBook Air, the cheaper Surface Laptop Go was the low cost attempt from MS. Also, there are plenty of good laptops from HP, Asus, Lenovo, Acer, and others, the market is not that dire.
- taftster 7mo ago
  "good laptops" yes. But I haven't seen a "great" one in a very long time. The Windows market is asleep at the wheel and a copilot button is not going to resuscitate it. I think the Surface is as close to great as you can get. I'm not saying that I know the whole market of laptops, you probably know better. But the Surface is pretty good, which is weird because it seems like Microsoft isn't really focusing on it or even backing away from it. I agree with the parent, that Macbooks are way ahead in terms of usability, polish and charm for a laptop. And the performance is outright stellar.
ViktorRay 7mo ago
Some of the new HP laptops are pretty well designed and have reasonable prices.
ge96 7mo ago
The Dell XPS 13 plus 9320 looks pretty good design wise
- lateforwork 7mo ago
  It has an unusual keyboard. Function should come before form [1]. This unconventional design makes it harder for touch typists to locate keys by feel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_follows_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_follows_function
cmovq 7mo ago
> it uses 150% scaling (as opposed to the ideal 200%) which means you have subtle display artifacts 200% is ideal but scaling on Windows has gotten really good. I use 150% on a 4K monitor and it works well.
- lionkor 7mo ago
  Not if you move windows between screens with different scaling, or launch apps that don't support the scaling stuff out of the box, or launch apps via X11 forwarding in WSL.
  - v1ne 7mo ago
    All of this works much worse on macOS: Scaling sucks, as it's integer-upscaled rendering + fractional downscaling in a shader. Windows can't span screens either. On Windows, the window will adapt as you move its center of gravity across the edge of the screens. Sure, could be better than at the moment where the window is the wrong size, but it would always be blurry.
  - hollandheese 7mo ago
    Works just fine. I do this every day in my setup. Yeah, it'll take a second to adjust but it works.
heraldgeezer 7mo ago
>Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world Thinkpads. Or in general any business laptop, like HP Elitebook or Dell Presicion. But they are not cheap at all haha If you want performace get a desktop!
- rbanffy 7mo ago
  Thinkpads are tanks, but most of the time you’d be perfectly well served by a BMW series 3.
  - heraldgeezer 7mo ago
    Ts-series are nice and slim. X1 too. Only P-series are workstations. I meant for build quality.
    - rbanffy 7mo ago
      I have a T series and it's neither slim nor light.
- post-it 7mo ago
  > If you want performace get a desktop! Or a MacBook, which is part OP's point. Apple is delivering quality at price points that Windows OEMs aren't (which is sort of the opposite of the phone world).
  - thefounder 7mo ago
    8gb of ram is not performance.
    - NetMageSCW 7mo ago
      Never used an 8GB Mac I see.
    - ducktastic 7mo ago
      Maybe I am in the minority but MacOS always feels so bloated and heavy to me.
manwe150 7mo ago
I don’t think it is just a hardware issue: Windows still just maps all movements and scrolling directly into pixels and lines. Most programs just slightly blur the viewport when scrolling to hide the latency, but that just adds even more latency. You can disable the scroll delay in the web browser settings, but not any of the new applications, like the new notepad Whereas Apple uses smooth acceleration curves
taftster 7mo ago
> Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. I completely agree. I actually quit like and get along with my Surface Laptop. It's a really nice computer overall, worthy. It's the closest you get to the same polish and usability that Apple has in their macbooks. I absolutely love my M4 macbook pro, it's definitely the best laptop I've ever owned. I had an older macbook pro that I kept way past its lifetime too.
- OkayPhysicist 7mo ago
  The Surface is garbage. My last work-issued one caught fire. I've never had any complaint's about Asus' laptops, though I've only used their Zenbook and Zephyrus lines.
  - jtbigwoo 7mo ago
    I think the problem is that Microsoft's hardware quality is super inconsistent. We had a ton of employees using Surface laptops and tablets at my previous company, particularly sales and support. The company stopped buying them after a few years because the first year failure rate was almost 15%. However, the folks that had the good ones often kept them for 5 years or more.
  - carefree-bob 7mo ago
    woah, how did it catch on fire? I want to hear this.
    - OkayPhysicist 7mo ago
      Don't know. Plugged it in one morning, and it wasn't turning on. So I tried detaching it from its base because that had been a problem before, but it was dead, so you needed to find the little manual release thing that's inside one of the vents, which I didn't have a tool for, so I gave up on that. Then I turned to ask a coworker to try their charging cord (as mine had to be replaced once after it failed, and I assumed the same thing had happened again), and by the time I got back to my desk a small whisp of smoke was rising from the keyboard, which is strange, because to my understanding that's not where the computer bits are in that laptop. So I unplugged it, at which point I noticed the smoke was increasing. So we doused it in CO2 (maybe N2, idk, some cheap gas we had lying around for the wetlab), pried the computer part off of the base, and then IT handled sending it back to M$.
NearAP 7mo ago
I think the 2 laptops you mentioned are targeting different markets. The Surface Laptop you linked to is - 16GB of RAM and 512GB of Storage (no 8GB of RAM option) The $599 Mac Neo is 8GB of RAM and 256GB of Storage. It doesn't have a 16GB RAM option but a 512GB storage option is $699. 8GB RAM seems to me to be targeting folks who don't run a lot of local apps or multiple big apps
- spiderfarmer 7mo ago
  Is it hard for you to imagine that people who'll buy the Neo don't care about specs at all? I mean, look at the colors!
- carlosjobim 7mo ago
  Nobody except people on HN cares about RAM. People care about what you can actually do with the machine. The spec numbers are nothing more than numbers when a computer never works as it is supposed to. It's like having a 500HP car, but it can actually not drive.
  - benterix 7mo ago
    > Nobody except people on HN cares about RAM. They might not care but they do call us saying "Oh you are good with computers, why is my computer so slow?"
    - carlosjobim 7mo ago
      Tell them to buy a Mac and they'll never have to call for tech support again.
      - abrouwers 7mo ago
        My spouse bought a mac and asks me (mostly a linux user, and I'm happy to help) for support somewhat regularly (mostly recently, for a tahoe upgrade). It's not the golden unicorn people paint it to be. 8gb is insane in 2026.
mikepurvis 7mo ago
I have the Lenovo X1 and I'm very happy with it, though obviously that's in a pretty different price category than the Yoga, Surface, or Macbook Neo. On the other hand, more money doesn't always mean better computer. I had a Dell XPS 9570 at a previous gig that had a lot of issues: coil whine, bad camera placement, terrible thermals, etc.
Someone 7mo ago
> The best laptop is now significantly cheaper than the horrible ones. Possibly, but I would wait for reviews to make that call. The hardware is slower than other MacBooks; memory may be slower, too, and other hardware may be slightly worse in quality.
- Eric_WVGG 7mo ago
  “hardware is slower” single core is significantly faster than the M2 Ultra chip. And when you're browsing the web, single core is all that matters.
ElijahLynn 7mo ago
Doesn't the surface have a touch screen? I don't really see how it's a competitor if it doesn't have a touch screen.
- GenerWork 7mo ago
  In the year that I had a Surface, I can count on 2 hands the number of times that I used the touch screen. Out of all those times that I used touch screen functionality, the majority of the times were done inadvertently when I was trying to get something off the screen. I'm willing to bet a lot of people won't/don't care about the touch screen, they just want something cheap.
  - garbageman 7mo ago
    100% All the touch screen does is make it top heavy and the hinge less effective at damping the movement.
    - f33d5173 7mo ago
      A touch screen by itself doesn't noticably increase the weight of the screen. It's only when you put everything else up there that it becomes heavier.
  - wasabi991011 7mo ago
    I have a Yoga, I use the stylus more than I type. Not everyone has the same use case. For me, Apple has never made a product that comes close to my use case.
- lateforwork 7mo ago
  I have a Windows laptop with a touch screen. The only time I touch the screen is when I take a screenshot using the Snipping Tool and want to circle something.
  - internet2000 7mo ago
    So you do use it.
GeekyBear 7mo ago
Microsoft's build quality is largely equivalent, but the press has already noticed that the value proposition at Microsoft is now lacking. > Apple's newest MacBook is an impressive play for affordability, right as the Surface line is looking expensive and out of touch. https://www.pcworld.com/article/3077961 https://www.pcworld.com/article/3077961
- hightrix 7mo ago
  It really isn’t. The track pad on surface is terrible compared to Mac. The surface has some weird edges and other spots to get caught on. I’ve seen a few with serious damage from typical daily use. The surface I have is barely hanging together, the charger is extremely finicky and will stop charging randomly. It takes effort to get the charger to “sit” in the slot and make contact. That said, my surface is pretty old so maybe some of these design flaws have been fixed. But from my experience, the build quality of the MacBook is in a different league than the surface.
  - dijit 7mo ago
    telling that this is flagged 1 minute into submission. Microsoft hardware was in the premium tier for sure (and continues to be: relative to others), but these days nearly all the OEMs have pretty bad warts across the line-up, even the surface books, even the new ARM ones (which are quite good). For work I have a Thinkpad T14S (ARM also) and it is a better quality notebook than the Surface book others in my organisation have (those feel like a 95%-ish imitation of Macbooks, the only variations being strict downgrades in their respective areas). So I'd push back on the idea that nobody is making good Windows computers, but it seems to be fewer and fewer, and the big brands like Dell Latitude and HP Elitebook are also dropping the ball for a long time now.
    - a1o 7mo ago
      Dell Pro Max, I think the Latitude line disappeared. But I feel Lenovo is the last one too, the only brand I trust for a Windows or Linux machine these days. I like Apple hardware and have my reservations with macOS, but it is still better than Windows.
internet2000 7mo ago
Not just Microsoft. Dell and HP must be having emergency meetings right about now...
- lateforwork 7mo ago
  Their challenge is, how do we halve the price and yet deliver twice the quality? I think they are going to realize they can't. Some of them will leave the market.
  - joe_mamba 7mo ago
    Dell has 50% more market share than Apple and HP 2x Apple's market share in the PC space. I doubt they'll be exiting the market because Apple launched a cheap laptop with 8gb of ram and using USB 2.0 ports. Most corporations are still tied to Windows apps and the MS ecosystem in general.
    - alwillis 7mo ago
      > cheap laptop with 8gb of ram and using USB 2.0 ports. A nitpick: there are two USB ports, one of them is a 10GB/s USB 3 port.
      - joe_mamba 7mo ago
        Both of which look identical with no obvious markings which is which. I'm sure this will generate no confusion amongst consumers who will have no issues whatsoever with this. /s "you're plugging it wrong" will become the new version of the classic "You're holding it wrong"
        alwillis 7mo ago
        Yes, the Mac Neo will tell you you’re plugging in to the wrong port! And while the ports aren’t labeled, if you plug an external display into the “wrong” port, you’ll get an on-screen notification suggesting you plug it into the other port. [1] [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47255353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47255353
SunshineTheCat 7mo ago
This is really well put. It's interesting, for years I have been trying to make my iPad a nice, slim laptop I could bring with me everywhere for lighter/coding specific tasks. I've gone through several keyboards trying to make this work. It never has. Now with this laptop, I can do exactly this, while being cheaper than what I've been attempting to do with an iPad.
xtracto 7mo ago
I was recently in the lookout for a new laptop. I wanted something BEEFFY! Specs wise but 13 inch at most. I literally couldn't find anything on the PC side. I wanted an x86 because I prefer Linux Mint as my OS (didn't care about windows) , but it was impossible to find a good laptop with good GPU , more than 64gb ram and decent build materials (ive got a thinpad and the platic build is just terrible. The screen bends when pulling it to open the laptop). So, if settled for a 128gb ram M4 max Macbookpro. It has been pretty solid so far. I'm a power user, so the RAM is used quite a lot (one of the reasons I wanted x86/Linux was to avoid virtualization overhead in docker/podman). Macs are way more expensive than other laptops, but their level of tech sophistication is miles ahead of anyone. Now, if only Asahi was more complete.
- Matl 7mo ago
  What about something like [1]. 1 - https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-flow-z13-2025/ https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-flow-z13-2025/
  - SaltyBackendGuy 7mo ago
    I might be a dinosaur but I just can't stand laptops that have touch screen...
    - achenet 7mo ago
      I accidentally got a pair of ThinkPads that happened to have touch screens, and I absolutely love the touch screen, often it's easier than the touchpad or keyboard nub.
    - itsfine2 7mo ago
      You might want to actually click the links and spent a couple of minutes before typing comments. This is not a laptop with a touch screen - it's a tablet with a kickstand and detachable keyboard.
      - evilduck 7mo ago
karmakaze 7mo ago
That Surface has 16GB RAM though. > Your new MacBook Neo. Just the way you want it[sic]. 13-inch MacBook Neo in Indigo A18 Pro, 6-core CPU, 5-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine Apple Intelligence Footnote ※ 8GB unified memory 256GB SSD storage U.S. English Magic Keyboard with Lock Key 20W USB‑C Power Adapter Two USB-C ports, 3.5 mm headphone jack Support for one external display 8 GB unified memory is brand-new e-waste today. macOS 26 makes it even worse.
- stanmancan 7mo ago
  I'm going to give Apple the benefit of the doubt here until proven otherwise. I can't see them releasing something with a terrible user experience as it would cause a lot of reputational harm.
  - 12_throw_away 7mo ago
    > I can't see them releasing something with a terrible user experience I see you haven't upgraded to Tahoe yet!
- skybrian 7mo ago
  I don't know what apps you run, but I'm typing this from an M2 Mac with 8 GB, running Tahoe. Performance is fine. It's always been fine.
- alwillis 7mo ago
  > 8 GB unified memory is brand-new e-waste today. macOS 26 makes it even worse. One reason Apple can get away with 8 GB of RAM is their SoC does realtime compression of data in RAM and they use high bandwidth memory; the A19 Pro RAM bandwidth is 60 GB/s. This enables them to treat the SSD like an L3 cache. It's nearly 5 years since the M1 was released; I suspect Apple has gotten really good with their RAM > compression > SSD system since then.
- karmakaze 7mo ago
  I will take MKBHD's take on this[0]. Great as a higher-end 'chromebook' etc. Could be an upgrade for my Surface Go 3 but not as portable. Definitely more useful than a tablet. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBX5WH9b4M4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBX5WH9b4M4
game_the0ry 7mo ago
> This is a major challenge to Microsoft. > Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. I get the impression that microsoft and the pc world have given up on consumer hardware and instead are completely focused on enterprise and ai. That's why windows 11 is saturated with bugs and is basically unusable, but enterprise is forced to buy it.
- thewebguyd 7mo ago
  It definitely feels that way. Microsoft has made it clear they don't care about the consumer market anymore. Xbox is dying or already dead, they've done nothing with the game studios they acquired, Windows laptop OEMs still ship plastic 1080p crap targeted at general office workers. They'll continue to sell it, because it's effectively free surveillance for them, but they certainly aren't focusing on the consumer market as a target demographic. And with less and less windows-specific apps now a days, there's very little reason for the average user to buy a Windows laptop, especially over this new macbook.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Indeed they haven't, Microsoft is only one of the biggest publishers in the world, and regardless of XBox the console, Microsoft Games Studios is doing great.
    - hedora 7mo ago
      Are you sure they're doing great? By what metric? What have they produced recently? I found a few lists online and looked at Wikipedia, and their big hits are all > 10-15 years old (or sequels/re-releases). Many of those are decade-old acquisitions of franchises that were ancient at acquisition. Revenue, or forward revenue? Their most recent quarterly games revenue was down 9% YoY. XBox console sales (leading indicator) are down 32%: https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/xbox/microsofts-gaming-division-flounders-while-the-firm-makes-more-money-than-ever-xbox-consoles-sales-drop-32-percent https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/xbox/microsofts-gam... Market share? The top N companies from this list have $197B in annual revenue. MS Studios is toward the top of the list, but they only have 12% market share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_video_game_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_video_game_com... Distribution and marketing? I wouldn't even know how to buy one of their games. I have a Linux gaming PC, a Mac, a switch, an iPhone, iPad, Apple TV and a XBone. We spend a few hundred dollars a year on video games, but I haven't seen anything suggesting any MS studio products work on any of our hardware, or are available on any distribution channels that reach any of our devices. Maybe they're on iPad, iPhone or Android? I haven't checked because we don't use those for gaming. I don't think we're that strange for having zero windows machines. It's down to ~ 30% of web browser market share: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... Windows is at ~ 95% of steam market share, so I guess that's one bright point for MS studios. However, many game developers release on Steam and console, so it doesn't imply that 95% of those other studios' customers could run a MS studio game. Customer retention? The last time I plugged the XBone in, I spent 45 minutes screwing with bugs in the account password dialog, finally logged in, and then walked away. I unplugged it for good after the updates completed. In contrast, I spent less time than that installing Linux + Steam on my most recent PC. I guess they dropped support for XBox One at some point? I started having problems with it five years ago. I don't remember a big compatibility-break launch since I purchased it, so I'd expect it to be able to turn on + connect to their servers, or at least run the games it's already downloaded + installed. I do own one MS game that still works: A copy of Minecraft. It took over 8 hours to figure out how to get it stop constantly asking my kids for my master MS account password. That did convince me to actually wipe all data from my Microsoft account, so I guess it was a win.
reactordev 7mo ago
I agree. I read this and immediately thought to myself: The gloves are off. The price point, the capability, the only thing stopping Apple at this point is the MDM stuff integrating it with other identity providers but its ahead of where it used to be.
- thewebguyd 7mo ago
  The MDM stuff is there now, and platform SSO works pretty well, at least with Entra and Okta (the only two I have experience with). Both JamF and InTune support it, I'm sure all the other MDMs do as well. The only time macs can be a bit of a headache is if you are still using all on-prem AD & group policy and trying to force them into that environment via joining the mac to AD.
  - reactordev 7mo ago
    Microsoft is forcing everyone onto Azure AD or whatever so that should fix that. Last time I dealt with Apple MDM was integrating it with on-prem AD and it was a pain. I know it’s better now because last few “gigs” have used it and it’s been pretty seamless with Microsoft Authenticator for Teams. (Ugh!)
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locusofself 7mo ago
MSFT up 1.84% today..
general_reveal 7mo ago
Sometimes I wish I could just use any laptop and Remote Desktop into my gaming rig which is awesome. Then I can have whatever form factor laptop I want, but the problem is I think the latency still sucks (maybe not?) on stuff like Parsec even locally.
- pinkgolem 7mo ago
  Nah locally is fine, if you have a good 6ghz coverage, but that means a hotspot in every second room
  - general_reveal 7mo ago
    I don’t have WiFi 6E, just 6 (5ghz). If the input latency is imperceptible for productivity work, and the resolution matches my laptop resolution without pixelation, then why the heck am I not streaming my powerhouse main pc? Weekend project.
- 6jQhWNYh 7mo ago
  The latency is acceptable. I host a remote gaming rig accessed through Parsec, the extra encoding/decoding latency is minimal. Distance has the largest effect, I found that over roughly 1,000 km my total latency is about 30 ms, perfectly playable for all but the most competitive FPS.
dmos62 7mo ago
I'll just chime in to say that not everyone cares about the features you mentioned that much. Keyboard, touchpad, looks are the last things I think about when comparing laptops. Not to lessen your preferences, just to point out that there's a variety of viewpoints.
- widowlark 7mo ago
  What features do matter to you?
  - dmos62 7mo ago
    Last time I was shopping for a laptop, I needed battery life, low glare, high screen brightness, rugedness was a plus. Cheapness is a good proxy for rugedness. Being able to upgrade/repair components is generally something I value highly too. Something that's made to be maintained, meaning opened, disassembled (and reassembled!), feels good to me.
    - widowlark 7mo ago
      What options do you see available on the market today that meet those needs? I agree that all of those are super nice to have
      - dmos62 7mo ago
        Used thinkpads and dell latitudes, battery and brightness aren't always what I'd like though. Frameworks and similar sound nice, but can't bring myself to pay the premium. What features matter to you?
        widowlark 7mo ago
        I have a framework and love it - repair-ability is exceptionally important to me, and I support it as often as I can. That being said, I have a really specific use-case I have to fill right now: I travel all the time for work, and my work laptop already takes up a good amount of space, so I need something small and easy to use when I travel
jstimpfle 7mo ago
> which means you have subtle display artifacts. No. 150÷ just means 96dpi * 1.5
- lateforwork 7mo ago
  At 150% scaling, one logical pixel maps to 1.5 physical pixels. When a 1px grid line is drawn, the renderer cannot light exactly 1.5 pixels, so it distributes the color across adjacent pixels using anti-aliasing. Depending on where the line falls relative to device-pixel boundaries, one pixel may be fully colored and the next partially colored, or vice versa. This shifts the perceived center of the line slightly. In a repeating grid, these fractional shifts accumulate, making the gaps between lines appear uneven or "vibrating." Chromium often avoids this by rendering 1px borders as hairlines that snap to a single device pixel, even when a CSS pixel corresponds to 1.5 device pixels at 150% scaling. This keeps lines crisp, but it also means the border remains about one device pixel thick, making it appear slightly thinner relative to the surrounding content. For some people such artifacts are not noticeable for others they are.
  - jstimpfle 7mo ago
    I'm one of those people who are super sensitive to the issues you describe, and let me tell you this: Scaling value (like 150%) is just an integer number. For the most part, non-ancient renderers (3D but also to a large degree 2D renderers), do not care about physical pixels, and when they do, they care the same amount no matter what the DPI is. Raster data has a fixed number of pixels, but is generally not meant to be displayed at a specific DPI. There are some rare applications where that might be true, and those are designed to work with a specific display of a given size and number of pixels. It's especially older applications (like from the 90s and 00s) that work in units of physical pixels, where lines are drawn at "1 pixel width" or something like that. That was ok in an age where targetted displays were all in the range of 70-100 DPI. But that's not true anymore, today the range is more like 100 to 250 or 300 DPI. One way to "fix" these older applications to work with higher DPIs, is to just scale them up by 2 -- each pixel written by the app results in 2x2 pixels set on the HiDpi screen. Of course, a "200%" display i.e. a display with 192 DPI should be a good display to do exactly that, but you can just as well use a 160 DPI or a 220 DPI screen and do the same thing. It's true that a modern OS run with a "scaling" setting of 150% generally scales up older applications using some heuristics. Important thing to notice here is that the old application never considered the DPI value itself. It's up to the OS (or a renderer) how it's doing scaling. It could do the 2x2 thing, or it could do the 1.5x thing but increase font sizes internally, to get sharp pixel-blitted fonts when it has control over typesetting. And yeah, some things can come out blurry if the app sends final raster data to the OS, and the OS just does the 1.5x blur thing. But remember, this is an unhappy situation just for old applications, and only where the OS receives raster data from the App, instead of drawing commands. Everything else is up to the OS (old apps) or the app itself (newer, DPI-aware apps). For newer applications, e.g. on Windows, the scaling value influences nothing but the DPI value (e.g. 150% or 144 DPI) reported to the application, everything else is up to the app.
fluidcruft 7mo ago
The Surface has 16GB of RAM vs 8GB on the Neo (Windows definitely eats RAM though so maybe that's par).
xattt 7mo ago
> I am typing this on an Lenovo Yoga, it has decent screen and keyboard, but the touchpad is horrible. Can we talk about laptops that you can’t carry by the edge where your palm rests because it flexes the frame and registers it as a mouse down event …
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sigzero 7mo ago
For a casual computer at home, I'd get one. Everything I do is practically web based anyway.
raydev 7mo ago
I think you're undervaluing touchscreen capability, which even the cheapest laptops offer now. Kids and non-tech folks have come to expect it by default. Now that Apple is attempting to compete in this space, they'll have to pitch these folks on what macOS without touch capability offers over Windows with touch capability. Maybe it will still sell well enough, maybe people aren't that stuck on touchscreens.
caycep 7mo ago
PC to me is always best as a itx minitower form factor.
rr808 7mo ago
The LG Gram is incredible, 17 inch thin light and powerful. However it has one of the worst keyboards I've ever used.
Gasp0de 7mo ago
What's wrong with the Thinkpad T series?
gilbetron 7mo ago
> Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. Strong disagree on this one - there are some great laptops available, they just aren't "macbook clones". I have an Asus Rog Strix that I love. Lenovo have great ones, Dell, even HP is back in the game somewhat. I use a macbook professionally, but still don't like the keyboard very much. The display is good, but my Asus display is better. Aluminum is pretty, but I don't like the feel of it on my wrists.
iqandjoke 7mo ago
If school is using anti-cheat exam, serious MDM software that only support Windows, would student still buy a Mac?
wyclif 7mo ago
Apple says the magic keyboard is "much loved." Eh, I can't think of anyone I know who uses a MacBook who agrees with that, even the biggest Cupertino fanbois. It's a terrible typing experience for touch typers, as others have commented here. Making MacBooks thinner and thinner creates diminishing returns when it comes to the keyboard. The "butterfly" design isn't very sturdy and on both my previous MacBook Pros several of the keys stopped working after a few years and had to be repaired.

NietTim 7mo ago

This is not primarily competing with the surface line of laptops, this is mostly competing with chromebooks which dominate schools. That's a completely different segment of devices.

runjake 7mo ago
I am in education and speak to others at the (US) national level on a near-daily basis. This doesn't compete with Chromebooks in schools at all. - Chromebooks in EDU cost approximately $290 (+- $10) per unit. - The Neo costs $499 per unit for schools. - For the cost of 10 Neos, I can buy 17 Chromebooks. Yes, this is a numbers game. The goal is every student has a device. - Schools using Chromebooks to log in. If you want reliable Google logins on macOS, you have an additional big spend up front, along with per-seat licensing costs. - This doesn't even factor in MDM and app cost comparisons.
- intrasight 7mo ago
  [flagged]
- NietTim 7mo ago
  So what segment does it target in your opinion? The "surface" market is minuscule and compared to the edu market irrelevant, the "vendor lock in" angle with the google logins can easily change over night as it did with microsoft.
  - runjake 7mo ago
    > So what segment does it target in your opinion? - Low end consumer - College students - People who have a desktop computer, but want a cheap portable for on-the-go. > The "surface" market is minuscule Probably so, but then again, I see a lot of Surface devices out and about and they are fairly popular with non-teacher education staff. While they aren't competing with Chromebooks or Apple on volume, I'd bet they're doing well.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
- newsclues 7mo ago
  Not every school is cash limited. Many schools have lots of money to invest in technology. Some schools will gladly pay more.
  - runjake 7mo ago
    Truth. I've seen some of them with carts full of MacBook Pros. But these schools are a small fraction of the overall population. It should also be noted that Washington state schools are still generally heavily Microsoft and Windows, despite Google's dominance.
    - newsclues 7mo ago
      Similar to how MS helps their local schools, I think Apple does for schools in California.
- tim333 7mo ago
  Even so I imagine your average person needing something for education would consider both. The Neo may cost more but from my past experience of Apple stuff they will likely be better made.
  - runjake 7mo ago
    Certainly possible. But, in the US consider that Google and "one-to-one" Chromebooks are generally dominating and the curriculum more or less requires extensions and setting. As an example, my kids try to do school work on one of the house Macs, but there's too many roadblocks so they just use their Chromebooks. I used to buy my kids Chromebooks for school, but, since the pandemic, the school issues them, so I haven't bought any since. > Apple stuff they will likely be better made It depends on what you mean. Apple uses higher quality parts and is more sleek. Chromebooks are more durable, take more abuse, are very repairable, and parts are cheap and plentiful. These are keys to schools. We're at a point where schools cycle out old models and either keep a bunch around, or strip parts from them, because some parts are interchangeable between generations.
- lm28469 7mo ago
  I saw this today: https://www.reddit.com/r/KidsAreFuckingStupid/comments/1rk3tz5/absurd_amount_of_chromebooks_broken_by_students/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KidsAreFuckingStupid/comments/1rk3t... If apple products are even a tiny bit more durable I wouldn't be surprise if it's more cost effective to switch to the neo for a lot of institutions
  - prcrstntr 7mo ago
    I don't think institutions will care much about the enhanced durability since they treat laptops as disposable units anyway. Apple can only complete if they provide bulk deals which bring the overall cost in line with chromebooks.
    - runjake 7mo ago
      No, we really care about durability. The amount of damage is crazy. So many units are damaged that it would be cost-prohibitive to dispose and replace them. The screenshot in that Reddit post more or less looks like ours. Schools generally repair these, if they have the technicians. And everyone is cannibalizing parts out of last generation models. It's like a Jawa shop. > Apple can only compete if they provide bulk deals which bring the overall cost in line with chromebooks. I've never seen, nor heard of Apple providing competitive prices, even in quantities of ~10,000 units. They haven't even gotten close and they've largely given up on the idea of Macs as a standard K12 school device. ~$250 iPads are still strong in low primary grades and special education, though.
      - joezydeco 7mo ago
        Can confirm Apple gave up on education. If they really cared you'd be able to have multiple accounts/profiles on iPad, and that's still not a thing that exists. I did a major PTA fundraiser to buy iPads for our classrooms and they were pretty much never used because of this.
        k3nx 7mo ago
        Have you seen the classroom app? It allows for multiple profiles on an iPad. I've never used it, so I don't know how well it works. https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/shared-ipad-overview-dep9a34c2ba2/web https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/shared-ipad-overv...
- ben7799 7mo ago
  The only problem with Chromebooks and the whole Google educational toolchain is it ruins school! My kid is on it, every kid hates it and every teacher hates it. You just can't argue with the pricing. I'm amazed at how bad everything seems to old fashioned paper text books. Every time I help my son I'm amazed how bad it all is. Horrible tiny screen that looks like is from 2000 and then the software is all designed for some Googler who has 2x 30" 5k displays. The usability is atrocious.
  - raw_anon_1111 7mo ago
    Chromebooks are the SaaS of hardware where the user is not the buyer. No one says “I would love to have a Chromebook at home” any more than they desire to run Salesforce at home.
  - nolist_policy 7mo ago
    A Chromebook at the same price point will get you similar if not better specs, 14" 16:10 FHD IPS display, convertible with touchscreen and pen input, backlit keyboard and 10h+ battery runtime.
- jonplackett 7mo ago
  How long do those chrome books last though? I reckon even an iPhone pro is better value than an average android phone. Same with iPad vs Android tablet. Because they last 3 possibly 4 times longer. A decent Apple laptop purchased 4 years ago is still basically a top notch laptop. Build quality is amazing. Resale value is still very high.
  - orthogonal_cube 7mo ago
    Physical durability will play a major factor here. If schools are expected to provide the Chromebooks then it will all boil down to the level of abuse/neglect the hardware can handle. Replacing a low-resale value $250 Chromebook that is equally sensitive to being dropped, exposed to liquids, or having debris get into hinges and keyboards will be heavily favored over a $500 MB Neo. The Neo’s processor and storage may have better lifetime but it doesn’t mean anything if the equipment ends up bricked. Schools in affluent areas may favor these for reasons you state. Judging on how students treat textbooks though should demonstrate how short the lifespan would turn out to be.
    - al_borland 7mo ago
      Framework might be appealing as well. Being able to have parts on hand that can easily be swapped out sounds a lot better/easier than dealing Apple repair practices. The Framework Laptop 12[0] starts at $549 and has touchscreen/pen options. But that price goes up to $799 to have it pre-built with an OS on it, which schools would want, unless building your laptop and installing the OS is part of the curriculum. I wonder if having the kids do this would make them take better care of it, because they had a hand it making it? [0] https://frame.work/laptop12 https://frame.work/laptop12
  - magnio 7mo ago
    > Because they last 3 possibly 4 times longer. An iPhone Pro is 3 times more expensive than an average Android phone too. If you buy Android flagships after 2022, they also last 4-6 years.
    - 7mo ago
- blactuary 7mo ago
  Not having to make a Google login would be a big benefit to me. Google is getting their data early
  - briandear 7mo ago
    Completely agree. I hate kids being stuck in a Google ecosystem. Apple’s classroom app is really good.
- zarzavat 7mo ago
  If the school is wealthy enough to provide free laptops, then you're right they're going to go for the cheapest option. But if the school expects the parents to provide laptops, then the parents are more likely to choose this.
- harshaw 7mo ago
  somewhat off topic, but I really am not sure that adding chromebooks to every school has made education better. hard to block youtube when they bring these home (I know you can, but the average person can't).
- GeekyBear 7mo ago
  The build quality of a $300 Chromebook is laughable.
- jen20 7mo ago
  Not to disagree too much with your assessment, one point stands out: > The Neo costs $499 per unit for schools. We don't actually know this. It does at the level individual student purchasing themselves, but I'd imagine there is a substantial bulk discount for educational establishments. That is not a new trend for Apple, it dates back to the Apple II.
  - runjake 7mo ago
    I do because we asked Apple about Neo pricing. We do because this is historically the norm. Schools pay roughly the same as the "college student" pricing, aside from the occasional deals they toss us.
- bob1029 7mo ago
  > This doesn't even factor in MDM and app cost comparisons. I would argue that Apple has a better MDM ecosystem if there are any kind of policy constraints beyond one laptop per child.
  - LunaSea 7mo ago
    There used to be FleetSmith which was a very simple Apple-only MDM system. It was great, very simple to use but still had all the features you needed. They were acquired by Apple who then promptly killed the product.
- alwillis 7mo ago
  > This doesn't compete with Chromebooks in schools at all. Of course, it does. The price difference is small enough now that the Neo is in the running. There's no doubt the build quality is going to be much better than a Chromebook. I worked in education for 20+ years; that $499 is just the starting price; a school or school district that buys them in quantity is going to get an even better price. Sure, a Chromebook is better than nothing, and if you’re an impoverished school district, you may have no choice but to go with Chromebooks. But if there's an opportunity to get Macs at this price point, most school districts are going to take it. Don't underestimate Apple's sales and support infrastructure. Many of the schools in the US are in areas with Apple retail stores, where sales and support work out of. It's hard to imagine a school committee going with Chromebooks instead of Mac Neos for a little more money and likely better support. The parents aren't IT experts, but they know Apple is a trusted brand, and Macs are "better".
  - asadotzler 7mo ago
    >a school or school district that buys them in quantity is going to get an even better price. Citation? I've read and heard others say this is the opposite of the truth, that Apple never gives bulk discounts. Heck, there's someone in this very discussion saying the same with actual prices paid in their comment showing real first hand experience and yet you come in here with a hand wavy unsupported claim that Apple gives breaks for bulk buys.
    - alwillis 7mo ago
      > I've read and heard others say this is the opposite of the truth, that Apple never gives bulk discounts. When I worked in higher education at an Ivy Plus university for 14 years, we were able to get discounts. We also had a campus store where we sold and repaired Macs. I understand that higher ed is quite different from K-12. It also seems like sales reps have much less leeway now than they used to. I have no doubt there's been multiple reorganizations, etc. and things could be completely different now. It's not just discounts; even if you pay the normal education price, Apple could throw in some extras (software licenses, AppleCare, etc.) to sweeten the deal.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- rpcope1 7mo ago
  The better question is why on earth do school kids need computers, especially anything beyond a robust desktop PC that they use extremely sparingly? No one ever seems to be able to give a good answer as to why we do this to ourselves, especially elementary school kids other than parents/teachers/schools are some combination of overwhelmed, lazy, or just outright massively derelict.
nobody_r_knows 7mo ago
[dead]
adrr 7mo ago
It needs a touch screen for elementary schools kids. Fine for older kids.
- post-it 7mo ago
  We started using computers with keyboards in class in grade 2-3.
  - rbanffy 7mo ago
    Current school laptops also have touchscreens for drawing and other activities. It’s a cheap feature.
    - mbreese 7mo ago
      Pen input is the one factor that forced one of my kids to a Windows laptop for school (a Surface Pro). It was a required feature for his school. Seeing how much he uses it for note taking, I get it. So yes, drawing is a key feature for schools. Another school uses iPads with keyboards for the same purpose, so I'm not sure where the school market is for these. Maybe only older kids, but a lot of edu-tech is expecting some kind of touch/pen input.
      - rbanffy 7mo ago
        It might be a fine laptop when you are on the move. I have an educational Lenovo for that purpose, but I would appreciate a Mac for that same use. When I need more power away from my desk I can use the MacBook Pro or my Lenovo T series (both a lot heavier than I’d like). I just wish the Mac had 16GB of RAM but my tiny Lenovo has 8 and it’s been working OK so far - I haven’t even set up a proper swap partition and it’s running on zram.
- sreekanth67 7mo ago
  wow. are elementary school kids using chromebooks? my kids is in pre-K this year. i dont know about the elementary school chromebook thing.
free_bip 7mo ago
I'm not sure that's true given that Chromebooks can be had for one third the price.
rbanffy 7mo ago
It might be aimed at Chromebooks, but it’s also a low-end Surface killer. The only thing I don’t like is the 8GB memory. And it could have the black keyboards of the other Apples.
zitterbewegung 7mo ago
At this point the Macbook Neo is in competition with Chromebooks, Microsoft and the third party market for older Macbook Airs with M1s
threatofrain 7mo ago
This is not competing against Chromebooks, which have very little reach outside of institutions. The Macbook Neo will likely have very widespread appeal for anyone looking for what used to be a netbook.
jimbokun 7mo ago
It could compete well in both. Looks like Apple has a product that competes with Chromebooks on price and competes with Surface on performance at the same time. At least close enough on both counts to create headaches for anyone trying to sell either.

timpera 7mo ago

The ARM64 Surface Laptop is great and definitely matches the MacBook Air's quality, but yeah, there's no way it is competitive with the new Neo offering from Apple at current prices. I hope this leads to a general decrease in price for laptops, but with the RAM crunch I don't see that happening…

jjtheblunt 7mo ago
the surface laptop has an excellent screen (2880x1920 i believe), and the macbook neo is lower resolution than apple's made in years, however.
- dmonitor 7mo ago
  What about color quality? I've used high resolution laptops with shitty washed out colors, but one thing I've always appreciated about Apple's displays is their vibrance.
- alwillis 7mo ago
  The Neo’s display is 219 pixels per inch, which is virtually the same as the Air’s 224 ppi.
- lateforwork 7mo ago
  Not true. 13-inch Surface Resolution: 1920 x 1280 (178 PPI) 15-inch Surface Resolution: 2496 x 1664 (201 PPI) See https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop#tech-specs-uid66f1 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-lapt... Compare that to my Lenovo Yoga 14-inch: 2944 x 1840 (239 PPI)
  - jjtheblunt 7mo ago
    ahhh....good catch. i used the wrong name: i meant surface pro 13, which has the detachable keyboard. yeah, it's odd that the surface laptops are lower res.
- jjtheblunt 7mo ago
  too late to edit: i was thinking surface pro (the detachable keyboard) not surface laptop with attached keyboard and weirdly low res screens, compared to the surface pro series.

rk06 7mo ago

all apple needs, to kill surface laptops entirely, is to enable windows to run on m series laptops without issues. I don't know why the downvotes, maybe someone can chime in if there is more to surface laptop? because i am using one laptop, and much prefer to use windows on M4 macbook pro instead.

TingPing 7mo ago
I assume you’re downvoted because Microsoft has to want that.
raverbashing 7mo ago
Who cares about Windows anymore? Kids are happy with iOS/Android devices Google docs solves 90% of Office use cases
- rk06 7mo ago
  many people do. i work for Microsoft and don't have option to use mac os
  - raverbashing 7mo ago
    Well, last I checked most people don't work for MS so I reckon their experience might be a bit different
- NetMageSCW 7mo ago
  Google Docs might handle 50% of people who use Office, but I doubt if it handles 25% of Office use cases. Few use every feature of Office but someone uses every feature of Office and all those power user cases that are different can’t be handled by Google Docs. Or even Web Office.
rbanffy 7mo ago
I’m not sure that many people want Windows badly enough they would get an Apple device and remove the original OS so they could run Windows. From my personal experience, Widows users in general don’t mind Windows, but, definitely, nobody I have ever met finds it more desirable than macOS.

kccqzy 7mo ago

> it uses 150% scaling (as opposed to the ideal 200%) which means you have subtle display artifacts I agree with you, but I’m afraid Apple doesn’t agree with us. The recent MacBooks do not use 200% scaling out of the box anymore. It is a setting that only nerds use. I have no reason to believe that out of the box the default settings on this MacBook Neo will use 200% scaling either.

manwe150 7mo ago
I think macOS applications feel like they have mostly updated to use the native resolution, so arbitrary scaling works great now. My comparative experience with a new Windows laptop is how I remember macOS felt when they first made high density screens many years ago: lots of render bugs all over, and every program has to be re-opened when I plug in an external screen to be usable at the new resolution
- kccqzy 7mo ago
  Most macOS applications now support rendering at 1x and 2x. And arbitrary scaling is done by the OS not by apps.
  - rbanffy 7mo ago
    That’s the ideal. Apps shouldn’t concern themselves with pixels. It’s the OSs job to know the hardware the machine uses.
    - odo1242 7mo ago
      This leads to visible moire patterns at non-integer scalings, though
      - rbanffy 7mo ago
        We should probably have nicer scaling algorithms that account for Moirés. Also, when you see a Moiré, that’s because you are scaling a bitmap that has periodic dithering. These should be more rare now, and a good opportunity to replace them with vector images with periodic patterns that are tuned for physical dimensions rather than pixel count.

pjmlp 7mo ago

Not really, because Surface isn't what most folks buying PCs get. And those prices don't compute in many European countries, Africa, and most likely other regions as well.

blazarquasar 7mo ago
Surface Laptop is 1099€ vs 699€ for the Macbook Neo in Germany. Macbook Neo is also 219ppi vs Surface Laptop at 178ppi. We’ll see about performance, but i’d expect the macbook to be on par or better.
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  Except most Germans don't buy Surface Laptops, and there are much cheaper options with 8 GB, naturally they lack a glowing apple to show off at Starbucks. It is also actually 800 euro if you want a proper SSD storage in 2026. And as mentioed, get out of German economy, into the southern and eastern countries, or over the Mediterrean to see who gets a Neo outside the well in life families, or maybe bundled with a cable TV contract bound to five years.
  - rbanffy 7mo ago
    > they lack a glowing apple to show off at Starbucks. If your MacBook has a glowing apple, you might be running Snow Leopard. You need to upgrade like now.
    - pjmlp 7mo ago
      Thankfully I don't own any, I rather have computers with replaceable parts, more environment friendly, thus not something I need to worry about.
      - NetMageSCW 7mo ago
        what computers are you buying that are more environmentally friendly? The MacBook Neo is 60% from recycled materials and Apple offers free recycling for all their products. How do you recycle your old parts?

wilsonnb3 7mo ago

The surface laptop is a competitor to the MacBook Air, the cheaper Surface Laptop Go was the low cost attempt from MS. Also, there are plenty of good laptops from HP, Asus, Lenovo, Acer, and others, the market is not that dire.

taftster 7mo ago
"good laptops" yes. But I haven't seen a "great" one in a very long time. The Windows market is asleep at the wheel and a copilot button is not going to resuscitate it. I think the Surface is as close to great as you can get. I'm not saying that I know the whole market of laptops, you probably know better. But the Surface is pretty good, which is weird because it seems like Microsoft isn't really focusing on it or even backing away from it. I agree with the parent, that Macbooks are way ahead in terms of usability, polish and charm for a laptop. And the performance is outright stellar.

ViktorRay 7mo ago

Some of the new HP laptops are pretty well designed and have reasonable prices.

ge96 7mo ago

The Dell XPS 13 plus 9320 looks pretty good design wise

lateforwork 7mo ago
It has an unusual keyboard. Function should come before form [1]. This unconventional design makes it harder for touch typists to locate keys by feel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_follows_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_follows_function

cmovq 7mo ago

> it uses 150% scaling (as opposed to the ideal 200%) which means you have subtle display artifacts 200% is ideal but scaling on Windows has gotten really good. I use 150% on a 4K monitor and it works well.

lionkor 7mo ago
Not if you move windows between screens with different scaling, or launch apps that don't support the scaling stuff out of the box, or launch apps via X11 forwarding in WSL.
- v1ne 7mo ago
  All of this works much worse on macOS: Scaling sucks, as it's integer-upscaled rendering + fractional downscaling in a shader. Windows can't span screens either. On Windows, the window will adapt as you move its center of gravity across the edge of the screens. Sure, could be better than at the moment where the window is the wrong size, but it would always be blurry.
- hollandheese 7mo ago
  Works just fine. I do this every day in my setup. Yeah, it'll take a second to adjust but it works.

heraldgeezer 7mo ago

>Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world Thinkpads. Or in general any business laptop, like HP Elitebook or Dell Presicion. But they are not cheap at all haha If you want performace get a desktop!

rbanffy 7mo ago
Thinkpads are tanks, but most of the time you’d be perfectly well served by a BMW series 3.
- heraldgeezer 7mo ago
  Ts-series are nice and slim. X1 too. Only P-series are workstations. I meant for build quality.
  - rbanffy 7mo ago
    I have a T series and it's neither slim nor light.
post-it 7mo ago
> If you want performace get a desktop! Or a MacBook, which is part OP's point. Apple is delivering quality at price points that Windows OEMs aren't (which is sort of the opposite of the phone world).
- thefounder 7mo ago
  8gb of ram is not performance.
  - NetMageSCW 7mo ago
    Never used an 8GB Mac I see.
  - ducktastic 7mo ago
    Maybe I am in the minority but MacOS always feels so bloated and heavy to me.

manwe150 7mo ago

I don’t think it is just a hardware issue: Windows still just maps all movements and scrolling directly into pixels and lines. Most programs just slightly blur the viewport when scrolling to hide the latency, but that just adds even more latency. You can disable the scroll delay in the web browser settings, but not any of the new applications, like the new notepad Whereas Apple uses smooth acceleration curves

taftster 7mo ago

> Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. I completely agree. I actually quit like and get along with my Surface Laptop. It's a really nice computer overall, worthy. It's the closest you get to the same polish and usability that Apple has in their macbooks. I absolutely love my M4 macbook pro, it's definitely the best laptop I've ever owned. I had an older macbook pro that I kept way past its lifetime too.

OkayPhysicist 7mo ago
The Surface is garbage. My last work-issued one caught fire. I've never had any complaint's about Asus' laptops, though I've only used their Zenbook and Zephyrus lines.
- jtbigwoo 7mo ago
  I think the problem is that Microsoft's hardware quality is super inconsistent. We had a ton of employees using Surface laptops and tablets at my previous company, particularly sales and support. The company stopped buying them after a few years because the first year failure rate was almost 15%. However, the folks that had the good ones often kept them for 5 years or more.
- carefree-bob 7mo ago
  woah, how did it catch on fire? I want to hear this.
  - OkayPhysicist 7mo ago
    Don't know. Plugged it in one morning, and it wasn't turning on. So I tried detaching it from its base because that had been a problem before, but it was dead, so you needed to find the little manual release thing that's inside one of the vents, which I didn't have a tool for, so I gave up on that. Then I turned to ask a coworker to try their charging cord (as mine had to be replaced once after it failed, and I assumed the same thing had happened again), and by the time I got back to my desk a small whisp of smoke was rising from the keyboard, which is strange, because to my understanding that's not where the computer bits are in that laptop. So I unplugged it, at which point I noticed the smoke was increasing. So we doused it in CO2 (maybe N2, idk, some cheap gas we had lying around for the wetlab), pried the computer part off of the base, and then IT handled sending it back to M$.

NearAP 7mo ago

I think the 2 laptops you mentioned are targeting different markets. The Surface Laptop you linked to is - 16GB of RAM and 512GB of Storage (no 8GB of RAM option) The $599 Mac Neo is 8GB of RAM and 256GB of Storage. It doesn't have a 16GB RAM option but a 512GB storage option is $699. 8GB RAM seems to me to be targeting folks who don't run a lot of local apps or multiple big apps

spiderfarmer 7mo ago
Is it hard for you to imagine that people who'll buy the Neo don't care about specs at all? I mean, look at the colors!
carlosjobim 7mo ago
Nobody except people on HN cares about RAM. People care about what you can actually do with the machine. The spec numbers are nothing more than numbers when a computer never works as it is supposed to. It's like having a 500HP car, but it can actually not drive.
- benterix 7mo ago
  > Nobody except people on HN cares about RAM. They might not care but they do call us saying "Oh you are good with computers, why is my computer so slow?"
  - carlosjobim 7mo ago
    Tell them to buy a Mac and they'll never have to call for tech support again.
    - abrouwers 7mo ago
      My spouse bought a mac and asks me (mostly a linux user, and I'm happy to help) for support somewhat regularly (mostly recently, for a tahoe upgrade). It's not the golden unicorn people paint it to be. 8gb is insane in 2026.

mikepurvis 7mo ago

I have the Lenovo X1 and I'm very happy with it, though obviously that's in a pretty different price category than the Yoga, Surface, or Macbook Neo. On the other hand, more money doesn't always mean better computer. I had a Dell XPS 9570 at a previous gig that had a lot of issues: coil whine, bad camera placement, terrible thermals, etc.

Someone 7mo ago

> The best laptop is now significantly cheaper than the horrible ones. Possibly, but I would wait for reviews to make that call. The hardware is slower than other MacBooks; memory may be slower, too, and other hardware may be slightly worse in quality.

Eric_WVGG 7mo ago
“hardware is slower” single core is significantly faster than the M2 Ultra chip. And when you're browsing the web, single core is all that matters.

ElijahLynn 7mo ago

Doesn't the surface have a touch screen? I don't really see how it's a competitor if it doesn't have a touch screen.

GenerWork 7mo ago
In the year that I had a Surface, I can count on 2 hands the number of times that I used the touch screen. Out of all those times that I used touch screen functionality, the majority of the times were done inadvertently when I was trying to get something off the screen. I'm willing to bet a lot of people won't/don't care about the touch screen, they just want something cheap.
- garbageman 7mo ago
  100% All the touch screen does is make it top heavy and the hinge less effective at damping the movement.
  - f33d5173 7mo ago
    A touch screen by itself doesn't noticably increase the weight of the screen. It's only when you put everything else up there that it becomes heavier.
- wasabi991011 7mo ago
  I have a Yoga, I use the stylus more than I type. Not everyone has the same use case. For me, Apple has never made a product that comes close to my use case.
lateforwork 7mo ago
I have a Windows laptop with a touch screen. The only time I touch the screen is when I take a screenshot using the Snipping Tool and want to circle something.
- internet2000 7mo ago
  So you do use it.

GeekyBear 7mo ago

Microsoft's build quality is largely equivalent, but the press has already noticed that the value proposition at Microsoft is now lacking. > Apple's newest MacBook is an impressive play for affordability, right as the Surface line is looking expensive and out of touch. https://www.pcworld.com/article/3077961 https://www.pcworld.com/article/3077961

hightrix 7mo ago
It really isn’t. The track pad on surface is terrible compared to Mac. The surface has some weird edges and other spots to get caught on. I’ve seen a few with serious damage from typical daily use. The surface I have is barely hanging together, the charger is extremely finicky and will stop charging randomly. It takes effort to get the charger to “sit” in the slot and make contact. That said, my surface is pretty old so maybe some of these design flaws have been fixed. But from my experience, the build quality of the MacBook is in a different league than the surface.
- dijit 7mo ago
  telling that this is flagged 1 minute into submission. Microsoft hardware was in the premium tier for sure (and continues to be: relative to others), but these days nearly all the OEMs have pretty bad warts across the line-up, even the surface books, even the new ARM ones (which are quite good). For work I have a Thinkpad T14S (ARM also) and it is a better quality notebook than the Surface book others in my organisation have (those feel like a 95%-ish imitation of Macbooks, the only variations being strict downgrades in their respective areas). So I'd push back on the idea that nobody is making good Windows computers, but it seems to be fewer and fewer, and the big brands like Dell Latitude and HP Elitebook are also dropping the ball for a long time now.
  - a1o 7mo ago
    Dell Pro Max, I think the Latitude line disappeared. But I feel Lenovo is the last one too, the only brand I trust for a Windows or Linux machine these days. I like Apple hardware and have my reservations with macOS, but it is still better than Windows.

internet2000 7mo ago

Not just Microsoft. Dell and HP must be having emergency meetings right about now...

lateforwork 7mo ago
Their challenge is, how do we halve the price and yet deliver twice the quality? I think they are going to realize they can't. Some of them will leave the market.
- joe_mamba 7mo ago
  Dell has 50% more market share than Apple and HP 2x Apple's market share in the PC space. I doubt they'll be exiting the market because Apple launched a cheap laptop with 8gb of ram and using USB 2.0 ports. Most corporations are still tied to Windows apps and the MS ecosystem in general.
  - alwillis 7mo ago
    > cheap laptop with 8gb of ram and using USB 2.0 ports. A nitpick: there are two USB ports, one of them is a 10GB/s USB 3 port.
    - joe_mamba 7mo ago
      Both of which look identical with no obvious markings which is which. I'm sure this will generate no confusion amongst consumers who will have no issues whatsoever with this. /s "you're plugging it wrong" will become the new version of the classic "You're holding it wrong"
      - alwillis 7mo ago
        Yes, the Mac Neo will tell you you’re plugging in to the wrong port! And while the ports aren’t labeled, if you plug an external display into the “wrong” port, you’ll get an on-screen notification suggesting you plug it into the other port. [1] [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47255353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47255353

SunshineTheCat 7mo ago

This is really well put. It's interesting, for years I have been trying to make my iPad a nice, slim laptop I could bring with me everywhere for lighter/coding specific tasks. I've gone through several keyboards trying to make this work. It never has. Now with this laptop, I can do exactly this, while being cheaper than what I've been attempting to do with an iPad.

xtracto 7mo ago

I was recently in the lookout for a new laptop. I wanted something BEEFFY! Specs wise but 13 inch at most. I literally couldn't find anything on the PC side. I wanted an x86 because I prefer Linux Mint as my OS (didn't care about windows) , but it was impossible to find a good laptop with good GPU , more than 64gb ram and decent build materials (ive got a thinpad and the platic build is just terrible. The screen bends when pulling it to open the laptop). So, if settled for a 128gb ram M4 max Macbookpro. It has been pretty solid so far. I'm a power user, so the RAM is used quite a lot (one of the reasons I wanted x86/Linux was to avoid virtualization overhead in docker/podman). Macs are way more expensive than other laptops, but their level of tech sophistication is miles ahead of anyone. Now, if only Asahi was more complete.

Matl 7mo ago
What about something like [1]. 1 - https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-flow-z13-2025/ https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-flow-z13-2025/
- SaltyBackendGuy 7mo ago
  I might be a dinosaur but I just can't stand laptops that have touch screen...
  - achenet 7mo ago
    I accidentally got a pair of ThinkPads that happened to have touch screens, and I absolutely love the touch screen, often it's easier than the touchpad or keyboard nub.
  - itsfine2 7mo ago
    You might want to actually click the links and spent a couple of minutes before typing comments. This is not a laptop with a touch screen - it's a tablet with a kickstand and detachable keyboard.
    - evilduck 7mo ago

karmakaze 7mo ago

That Surface has 16GB RAM though. > Your new MacBook Neo. Just the way you want it[sic]. 13-inch MacBook Neo in Indigo A18 Pro, 6-core CPU, 5-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine Apple Intelligence Footnote ※ 8GB unified memory 256GB SSD storage U.S. English Magic Keyboard with Lock Key 20W USB‑C Power Adapter Two USB-C ports, 3.5 mm headphone jack Support for one external display 8 GB unified memory is brand-new e-waste today. macOS 26 makes it even worse.

stanmancan 7mo ago
I'm going to give Apple the benefit of the doubt here until proven otherwise. I can't see them releasing something with a terrible user experience as it would cause a lot of reputational harm.
- 12_throw_away 7mo ago
  > I can't see them releasing something with a terrible user experience I see you haven't upgraded to Tahoe yet!
skybrian 7mo ago
I don't know what apps you run, but I'm typing this from an M2 Mac with 8 GB, running Tahoe. Performance is fine. It's always been fine.
alwillis 7mo ago
> 8 GB unified memory is brand-new e-waste today. macOS 26 makes it even worse. One reason Apple can get away with 8 GB of RAM is their SoC does realtime compression of data in RAM and they use high bandwidth memory; the A19 Pro RAM bandwidth is 60 GB/s. This enables them to treat the SSD like an L3 cache. It's nearly 5 years since the M1 was released; I suspect Apple has gotten really good with their RAM > compression > SSD system since then.
karmakaze 7mo ago
I will take MKBHD's take on this[0]. Great as a higher-end 'chromebook' etc. Could be an upgrade for my Surface Go 3 but not as portable. Definitely more useful than a tablet. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBX5WH9b4M4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBX5WH9b4M4

game_the0ry 7mo ago

> This is a major challenge to Microsoft. > Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. I get the impression that microsoft and the pc world have given up on consumer hardware and instead are completely focused on enterprise and ai. That's why windows 11 is saturated with bugs and is basically unusable, but enterprise is forced to buy it.

thewebguyd 7mo ago
It definitely feels that way. Microsoft has made it clear they don't care about the consumer market anymore. Xbox is dying or already dead, they've done nothing with the game studios they acquired, Windows laptop OEMs still ship plastic 1080p crap targeted at general office workers. They'll continue to sell it, because it's effectively free surveillance for them, but they certainly aren't focusing on the consumer market as a target demographic. And with less and less windows-specific apps now a days, there's very little reason for the average user to buy a Windows laptop, especially over this new macbook.
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  Indeed they haven't, Microsoft is only one of the biggest publishers in the world, and regardless of XBox the console, Microsoft Games Studios is doing great.
  - hedora 7mo ago
    Are you sure they're doing great? By what metric? What have they produced recently? I found a few lists online and looked at Wikipedia, and their big hits are all > 10-15 years old (or sequels/re-releases). Many of those are decade-old acquisitions of franchises that were ancient at acquisition. Revenue, or forward revenue? Their most recent quarterly games revenue was down 9% YoY. XBox console sales (leading indicator) are down 32%: https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/xbox/microsofts-gaming-division-flounders-while-the-firm-makes-more-money-than-ever-xbox-consoles-sales-drop-32-percent https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/xbox/microsofts-gam... Market share? The top N companies from this list have $197B in annual revenue. MS Studios is toward the top of the list, but they only have 12% market share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_video_game_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_video_game_com... Distribution and marketing? I wouldn't even know how to buy one of their games. I have a Linux gaming PC, a Mac, a switch, an iPhone, iPad, Apple TV and a XBone. We spend a few hundred dollars a year on video games, but I haven't seen anything suggesting any MS studio products work on any of our hardware, or are available on any distribution channels that reach any of our devices. Maybe they're on iPad, iPhone or Android? I haven't checked because we don't use those for gaming. I don't think we're that strange for having zero windows machines. It's down to ~ 30% of web browser market share: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... Windows is at ~ 95% of steam market share, so I guess that's one bright point for MS studios. However, many game developers release on Steam and console, so it doesn't imply that 95% of those other studios' customers could run a MS studio game. Customer retention? The last time I plugged the XBone in, I spent 45 minutes screwing with bugs in the account password dialog, finally logged in, and then walked away. I unplugged it for good after the updates completed. In contrast, I spent less time than that installing Linux + Steam on my most recent PC. I guess they dropped support for XBox One at some point? I started having problems with it five years ago. I don't remember a big compatibility-break launch since I purchased it, so I'd expect it to be able to turn on + connect to their servers, or at least run the games it's already downloaded + installed. I do own one MS game that still works: A copy of Minecraft. It took over 8 hours to figure out how to get it stop constantly asking my kids for my master MS account password. That did convince me to actually wipe all data from my Microsoft account, so I guess it was a win.

reactordev 7mo ago

I agree. I read this and immediately thought to myself: The gloves are off. The price point, the capability, the only thing stopping Apple at this point is the MDM stuff integrating it with other identity providers but its ahead of where it used to be.

thewebguyd 7mo ago
The MDM stuff is there now, and platform SSO works pretty well, at least with Entra and Okta (the only two I have experience with). Both JamF and InTune support it, I'm sure all the other MDMs do as well. The only time macs can be a bit of a headache is if you are still using all on-prem AD & group policy and trying to force them into that environment via joining the mac to AD.
- reactordev 7mo ago
  Microsoft is forcing everyone onto Azure AD or whatever so that should fix that. Last time I dealt with Apple MDM was integrating it with on-prem AD and it was a pain. I know it’s better now because last few “gigs” have used it and it’s been pretty seamless with Microsoft Authenticator for Teams. (Ugh!)

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

locusofself 7mo ago

MSFT up 1.84% today..

general_reveal 7mo ago

Sometimes I wish I could just use any laptop and Remote Desktop into my gaming rig which is awesome. Then I can have whatever form factor laptop I want, but the problem is I think the latency still sucks (maybe not?) on stuff like Parsec even locally.

pinkgolem 7mo ago
Nah locally is fine, if you have a good 6ghz coverage, but that means a hotspot in every second room
- general_reveal 7mo ago
  I don’t have WiFi 6E, just 6 (5ghz). If the input latency is imperceptible for productivity work, and the resolution matches my laptop resolution without pixelation, then why the heck am I not streaming my powerhouse main pc? Weekend project.
6jQhWNYh 7mo ago
The latency is acceptable. I host a remote gaming rig accessed through Parsec, the extra encoding/decoding latency is minimal. Distance has the largest effect, I found that over roughly 1,000 km my total latency is about 30 ms, perfectly playable for all but the most competitive FPS.

dmos62 7mo ago

I'll just chime in to say that not everyone cares about the features you mentioned that much. Keyboard, touchpad, looks are the last things I think about when comparing laptops. Not to lessen your preferences, just to point out that there's a variety of viewpoints.

widowlark 7mo ago
What features do matter to you?
- dmos62 7mo ago
  Last time I was shopping for a laptop, I needed battery life, low glare, high screen brightness, rugedness was a plus. Cheapness is a good proxy for rugedness. Being able to upgrade/repair components is generally something I value highly too. Something that's made to be maintained, meaning opened, disassembled (and reassembled!), feels good to me.
  - widowlark 7mo ago
    What options do you see available on the market today that meet those needs? I agree that all of those are super nice to have
    - dmos62 7mo ago
      Used thinkpads and dell latitudes, battery and brightness aren't always what I'd like though. Frameworks and similar sound nice, but can't bring myself to pay the premium. What features matter to you?
      - widowlark 7mo ago
        I have a framework and love it - repair-ability is exceptionally important to me, and I support it as often as I can. That being said, I have a really specific use-case I have to fill right now: I travel all the time for work, and my work laptop already takes up a good amount of space, so I need something small and easy to use when I travel

jstimpfle 7mo ago

> which means you have subtle display artifacts. No. 150÷ just means 96dpi * 1.5

lateforwork 7mo ago
At 150% scaling, one logical pixel maps to 1.5 physical pixels. When a 1px grid line is drawn, the renderer cannot light exactly 1.5 pixels, so it distributes the color across adjacent pixels using anti-aliasing. Depending on where the line falls relative to device-pixel boundaries, one pixel may be fully colored and the next partially colored, or vice versa. This shifts the perceived center of the line slightly. In a repeating grid, these fractional shifts accumulate, making the gaps between lines appear uneven or "vibrating." Chromium often avoids this by rendering 1px borders as hairlines that snap to a single device pixel, even when a CSS pixel corresponds to 1.5 device pixels at 150% scaling. This keeps lines crisp, but it also means the border remains about one device pixel thick, making it appear slightly thinner relative to the surrounding content. For some people such artifacts are not noticeable for others they are.
- jstimpfle 7mo ago
  I'm one of those people who are super sensitive to the issues you describe, and let me tell you this: Scaling value (like 150%) is just an integer number. For the most part, non-ancient renderers (3D but also to a large degree 2D renderers), do not care about physical pixels, and when they do, they care the same amount no matter what the DPI is. Raster data has a fixed number of pixels, but is generally not meant to be displayed at a specific DPI. There are some rare applications where that might be true, and those are designed to work with a specific display of a given size and number of pixels. It's especially older applications (like from the 90s and 00s) that work in units of physical pixels, where lines are drawn at "1 pixel width" or something like that. That was ok in an age where targetted displays were all in the range of 70-100 DPI. But that's not true anymore, today the range is more like 100 to 250 or 300 DPI. One way to "fix" these older applications to work with higher DPIs, is to just scale them up by 2 -- each pixel written by the app results in 2x2 pixels set on the HiDpi screen. Of course, a "200%" display i.e. a display with 192 DPI should be a good display to do exactly that, but you can just as well use a 160 DPI or a 220 DPI screen and do the same thing. It's true that a modern OS run with a "scaling" setting of 150% generally scales up older applications using some heuristics. Important thing to notice here is that the old application never considered the DPI value itself. It's up to the OS (or a renderer) how it's doing scaling. It could do the 2x2 thing, or it could do the 1.5x thing but increase font sizes internally, to get sharp pixel-blitted fonts when it has control over typesetting. And yeah, some things can come out blurry if the app sends final raster data to the OS, and the OS just does the 1.5x blur thing. But remember, this is an unhappy situation just for old applications, and only where the OS receives raster data from the App, instead of drawing commands. Everything else is up to the OS (old apps) or the app itself (newer, DPI-aware apps). For newer applications, e.g. on Windows, the scaling value influences nothing but the DPI value (e.g. 150% or 144 DPI) reported to the application, everything else is up to the app.

fluidcruft 7mo ago

The Surface has 16GB of RAM vs 8GB on the Neo (Windows definitely eats RAM though so maybe that's par).

xattt 7mo ago

> I am typing this on an Lenovo Yoga, it has decent screen and keyboard, but the touchpad is horrible. Can we talk about laptops that you can’t carry by the edge where your palm rests because it flexes the frame and registers it as a mouse down event …

deleted 7mo ago

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sigzero 7mo ago

For a casual computer at home, I'd get one. Everything I do is practically web based anyway.

raydev 7mo ago

I think you're undervaluing touchscreen capability, which even the cheapest laptops offer now. Kids and non-tech folks have come to expect it by default. Now that Apple is attempting to compete in this space, they'll have to pitch these folks on what macOS without touch capability offers over Windows with touch capability. Maybe it will still sell well enough, maybe people aren't that stuck on touchscreens.

caycep 7mo ago

PC to me is always best as a itx minitower form factor.

rr808 7mo ago

The LG Gram is incredible, 17 inch thin light and powerful. However it has one of the worst keyboards I've ever used.

Gasp0de 7mo ago

What's wrong with the Thinkpad T series?

gilbetron 7mo ago

> Other than Microsoft nobody even makes decent laptops in the Windows world. Strong disagree on this one - there are some great laptops available, they just aren't "macbook clones". I have an Asus Rog Strix that I love. Lenovo have great ones, Dell, even HP is back in the game somewhat. I use a macbook professionally, but still don't like the keyboard very much. The display is good, but my Asus display is better. Aluminum is pretty, but I don't like the feel of it on my wrists.

iqandjoke 7mo ago

If school is using anti-cheat exam, serious MDM software that only support Windows, would student still buy a Mac?

wyclif 7mo ago

Apple says the magic keyboard is "much loved." Eh, I can't think of anyone I know who uses a MacBook who agrees with that, even the biggest Cupertino fanbois. It's a terrible typing experience for touch typers, as others have commented here. Making MacBooks thinner and thinner creates diminishing returns when it comes to the keyboard. The "butterfly" design isn't very sturdy and on both my previous MacBook Pros several of the keys stopped working after a few years and had to be repaired.