29 ms·
Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study
- 1970-01-01 9mo agoI was out skating today. Everyone was having a fun time until a diesel truck simply drove down the nearby road. It stunk up and polluted the frozen lake air for a solid few minutes. I hate diesel trucks with a passion and if I live long enough to see it happen, I will celebrate the day they become defunct. Tesla's EV trucks need to deal the same hard kick to diesel trucks that they did to cars.
- senectus1 9mo agoyeah, its an interesting analogy with smokers and the smell and pollution they spread. they dont seem to notice it themselves, but the non smokers around them and up to 100 meters away all notice them.
- MBCook 9mo agoI’m not sure that’s really the case here. There’s simply no way you can’t notice bad pollution from vehicles. Standing near the average car isn’t that bad at all. EVs are way better, but it’s not that bad. But stand near a car that has some sort of exhaust problem or isn’t burning fuel correctly and it’s bad. Just horrible to breathe. I’ve found cabin air filters either activated carbon help immensely. I started buying them on someone’s recommendation but I had no idea how much they affected things. I’ve driven on brand new asphalt and not noticed the smell. I’ve been behind horrible cars and I don’t notice a thing, unless I put my window down and then it suddenly hits me. All of a sudden lately I’m smelling the terrible cars again. Time to change the filter.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago> Tesla's EV trucks need to deal the same hard kick to diesel trucks that they did to cars That won't happen until they design a normal truck. The Lightning sold more than the CT and it still ended up getting canceled(ish). It isn't going to be Tesla that does it, it will probably be someone else, and the driving factor is battery capacity. We've got a ways to go yet. It would help to have 400+ kWh batteries and megawatt chargers.
- loeg 9mo agoThe post-cancellation EREV Lightning is 99% an EV, for the purposes of air pollution. Agree with everything else.
- rootusrootus 9mo agoThat's why I said (ish). I agree, it's predominantly an EV. I hope they backpedal on the decision a bit and offer both an EREV and a regular EV at the same time. I'm quite happy with my Lightning and will buy another, but I'm not super interested in the EREV as it just adds expense, complexity, and maintenance requirements without offering me much additional functionality for my use case.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- digiown 9mo agoI thought the whole point of an EREV is to reduce expense by having less battery in the vehicle.
- rootusrootus 9mo agoThe whole point is to sell more cars, the EREV Lightning will not be cheaper to produce or sell. At current prices, the standard range battery in a Lightning (which is nominally about 107kWh or so) should cost under $10K. They will not be able to shrink the battery enough to offset the cost of putting in an engine and generator. For one, they have to stay competitive with the Dodge EREV pickup, which will have a ~90kWh battery. My guess is they leave out one or two modules from the standard range pack and price the truck starting at $70K. They won't make a ton of money, but they might be able to get a nice boost in volume to make up for it.
- xbmcuser 9mo agoEv trucks have already reached 50%+ sales in China this year so diesel truck will be gone soon but unlikely to be Tesla trucks though.
- kalleboo 9mo agoHere in Japan as well delivery companies are all moving to EVs, which is great in the neighborhoods where they idle their trucks in the summer when hopping out to make a delivery. Yamato using Mitsubishi Fuso eCanter trucks[0] and Japan Post adopting Mitsubishi Minicab EVs[1] and Honda EV bikes. [0] https://www.yamato-hd.co.jp/news/2023/newsrelease_20230912_1.html https://www.yamato-hd.co.jp/news/2023/newsrelease_20230912_1... [1] https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/jp/newsroom/newsrelease/2024/20240708_1.html https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/jp/newsroom/newsrelease/20...
- Gigachad 9mo agoI see the BYD utes are increasingly common in Australia now. Electric seems like a pretty clear winner now.
- dangus 9mo agoJust when I was thinking about Tesla’s main failure being their pickup truck you remind me how they completely missed the obvious delivery van market for which EVs are ideal. And the semi is such vaporware that I forgot it was even a thing.
- timbit42 9mo agoNot only is diesel exhaust more polluting than gasoline exhaust, but because it burns cooler than gasoline, the fumes remain near the ground longer, affecting people.
- princevegeta89 9mo agoNo surprises. No matter how we look at it, EVs are much friendlier and safer to the environment. Some people argue the source of electricty can be contested against because that involves fossil fuel burning again, but in today's world we are rapidly moving away from it and towards nuclear/hydel/wind methods for generating power. I hope ICE cars completely become a thing of the past in the next couple of decades to come.
- ares623 9mo agoI just hope "dumb" EV's become a thing soon. I cannot and will not own a smart car any more I want to own a smart TV or smart fridge or smart toaster.
- shiftpgdn 9mo agoJust buy one and remove the SIM card.
- i80and 9mo agoThey often have eSIMs I think, but (depending probably on the car) pulling the modem's fuse can be safe. That's the case for the VW ID.4 at least.
- Nextgrid 9mo agoIf the modem has no fuse, physically damaging the NIC chip in the module will also work.
- wizzwizz4 9mo agoI want the car to be able to contact emergency services, but not to otherwise be able to use the cellular network. Is there a good way to sabotage the eSIM, without otherwise breaking the modem? (This would still allow the car to be tracked via IMEI, but I'm not too worried about that: anyone capable of that is also capable of tracking my actual phone, and anyone buying that data will already know what car I own.)
- apatheticonion 9mo agoHaving spent a significant amount of time in Bangkok - the city center (and many urban hubs) is an amazing walkable place with pedestrian walkways suspended above major roads, lots of frequent public transit (metro, skytrain) that honestly makes my home city of Sydney feel like a developing country. The only downside is that traffic creates a lot of pollution, and the engine noise (not honking, there's very little of that) is so bad that you need to yell to a person standing next to you to have a conversation. As a visitor, I can't claim to know how to fix the problems facing locals, however I can't help but feel that urban centers would be 1000x better with mass adoption of EVs (bikes, cars). I have seen a spike in the number of Chinese EVs across the city - however I'm aware that economic pressures prevent mass adoption by the majority of the road-users
- presentation 9mo agoTo me, Bangkok feels very much like a developing country. If you go to Chinese cities, the EV adoption has incredible positive effects to the vibe, though. Shanghai’s French concession is so quiet and peaceful now that most cars are EVs.
- apatheticonion 9mo agoTry walking around Newtown in Sydney haha. "Charming" multi-million dollar "victorian-style" shanties with public transit that are a 30 minute walk away and break down every few days. I think tier 1 Chinese cities are in a league of their own though. It's a shame it's so difficult to stay there for a prolonged period of time as a foreigner. Thailand strikes a good balance of accessibility and development - that said I certainly agree that there are noticeable signs of it being a developing country. Still better than Sydney on balance though.
- SoftTalker 9mo agoThose cities used to be filled with smokey two-stroke motorbikes and mopeds. One of those is worse than a dozen of normal cars, to say nothing of EVs.
- 9mo ago
- tbrownaw 9mo agoThis study is about air quality in neighborhoods. So it would show the same thing even if EVs just moved pollution from where people use their cars to where power plants get placed, because that's not the question it's addressing.
- MBCook 9mo agoPeople live in neighborhoods. Even if the pollution is identical, moving it from where everyone lives and works over to more isolated areas where power plants are would still be a big benefit. We know EVs are cleaner than that. And when the pollution is centralized in one power plant it’s also more economically feasible to apply filtration or particle capture isn’t it?
- wilg 9mo agoOK but we already know that EVs don't just move pollution around.
- tbrownaw 9mo agoAIUI there are still disagreements about how to calculate that exactly. This study doesn't (and doesn't try to) provide any input towards settling that.
- mkozlows 9mo agoThere are no reputable studies that show EVs having anything like the harms of legacy cars. The worst you can get is that if you're on a carbon-intensive grid, a Hummer EV might be as bad as a compact gas car.
- eldaisfish 9mo agothere are no disagreements about the fact that any electric is FAR more efficient than any combustion car.
- kneel 9mo agoEven if all the electricity for EVs came from a centralized coal plant (it doesn't) it would be better than using combustion in individual vehicles. Centralized pollution in one area is better than attempting to mitigate diffuse pollution everywhere.
- braincat31415 9mo agoHas the study made an effort to exclude any other factors? For example, a reduction in commute during the covid years?
- zahlman 9mo ago> For the analysis, the researchers divided California into 1,692 neighborhoods, using a geographic unit similar to zip codes. They obtained publicly available data from the state’s Department of Motor Vehicles on the number of ZEVs registered in each neighborhood. ZEVs include full-battery electric cars, plug-in hybrids and fuel-cell cars, but not heavier duty vehicles like delivery trucks and semi trucks. > Next, the research team obtained data from the Tropospheric Monitoring Instrument (TROPOMI), a high-resolution satellite sensor that provides daily, global measurements of NO₂ and other pollutants. They used this data to calculate annual average NO₂ levels in each California neighborhood from 2019 to 2023. > Over the study period, a typical neighborhood gained 272 ZEVs, with most neighborhoods adding between 18 and 839. For every 200 new ZEVs registered, NO₂ levels dropped 1.1%, a measurable improvement in air quality. Seems pretty clear to me that that's controlled for.
- braincat31415 9mo agoI see. Thanks for the quote. I missed that part in the press release.
- Der_Einzige 9mo agoIt also causes roads to be damaged/destroyed FAR faster due to the vehicales on average weighing significantly more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law It also simply moves the pollution to places like Africa where the extremely dirty lithium mining is externalized away from wealthy westerners. Environmental externalization.
- bryanlarsen 9mo agoOnly poorly designed EV's are significantly heavier. A Tesla 3 and a BMW 3 are about the same weight.
- Der_Einzige 9mo agoBMWs are all pigfat today. Compare it to a proper sports car like a Miata. Most cars are far too heavy and should be made lighter. Only Mazda seems to understand this and that's why the Mazda SUVs/sedans are by far the best driving vehicles in their class.
- skylurk 9mo agoBMW has hardware and software bloat for sure, I hate driving them. But sedans, even the heavy ones, don't really hurt roads much compared to a lorry. As your wikipedia link indicates, any road that is designed for lorry use should be able to take heavy sedans all day and not be worse for wear: > Therefore, the resulting stress difference between truck and car is 15,000 to 1.
- zahlman 9mo agoThe lithium mining is surely not causing anywhere near as much pollution as fossil fuel burning. If you think it's actually significant, please show relevant studies and/or analysis.
- TheTxT 9mo agoAnd gasoline just magically appears at the gas station? Wars over oil are being fought for decades and nothing similar has happened over Lithium yet?
- davidw 9mo agoTires and brakes still contribute to a lot of particulate matter pollution even from EV's, but they're at least a step up. The best EV's are still eBikes though.
- tbrownaw 9mo agoTires yes, but EVs tend to have regenerative braking which will reduce brake particulates significantly.
- chupasaurus 9mo agoThe study is about NOx levels which have nothing to do with tires or brakes.
- swsieber 9mo agoI mean, it kind of is. But I'd say the framing is about general air pollution, and they happen to use NOx levels as proxy indicator. So from that perspective, I think it is important to note that there are other types of pollution that go up with electric cars.
- davidw 9mo agoOk, but tire pollution is still a problem: https://grist.org/transportation/electric-vehicles-are-a-climate-solution-with-a-pollution-problem-tire/ https://grist.org/transportation/electric-vehicles-are-a-cli... https://caltrout.org/news/did-you-know-your-cars-tires-could-be-harming-salmon/ https://caltrout.org/news/did-you-know-your-cars-tires-could...
- gruturo 9mo agoTrue. But there are 2 ways to read this: 1: Yes, let's stick with ICE cars and die of preventable illnesses because EVs are only a massive improvement, rather than absolute perfection 2: Hey let's take this massive improvement and enjoy enormously cleaner air I meet way too many people from group 1 unfortunately.
- Mikasa1 9mo agoHmmm. Do we have to do a study of that? The AQI around LHR was 3 when I went there last year. Then realized all gas cars are banned at the airport.
- digiown 9mo agoWhat's the reasoning for banning the cars specifically at an airport? Don't the airplanes burn way more fuel?
- margalabargala 9mo agoAircraft burn more fuel, but they do so far from where people are, and Jet A burns more cleanly than gasoline from a particulate perspective. From an air pollution perspective you are much better off a half mile from 10 jets taking off, than you are surrounded by a hundred idling gasoline cars.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- simonbarker87 9mo agoAssuming LHR is London Heathrow then ICE cars are not banned there. I drove and parked in short stay parking just a few weeks ago.
- didip 9mo agoAnyone can argue ICE vs EV all night long but there's only 1 metric I care about, in favor of EV: When I am going to take my son to school, he doesn't have to smell the gas and the fumes from the exhaust in the garage.
- rubidium 9mo agoI did daily (old station wagon in the rear facing seat), as well as school buses. Kindof liked the smell in moderation as a kid. Still in favor of EVs, just a curiosity that this is so negative for you.
- margalabargala 9mo agoI suspect OP is considering health effects, not enjoyment. Plenty of people like cigarettes and opium too, that doesn't mean you want your kid exposed to the smoke.
- digiown 9mo agoMost of the exhaust fumes your son smells near school is going to come from other people's cars though.
- Rygian 9mo agoVery true, to the point that I am considering asking the city council to forbid ICE in a 1-km radius around places where children regularly use the sidewalks. Even if the idea doesn't outright gain traction, enough insistence will shift the overton window.
- driverdan 9mo agoHow long are you running the car in your garage? A minute of idling isn't going to cause any problems.
- unglaublich 9mo agoI have another one: _I_ don't have to smell your gas and fumes when I bike behind you!
- yanhangyhy 9mo agoi moved to beijing in 2015.. and i have to buy a air purifier, prepare masks for winter. pepople talks about air polutions so much, it feels like we are struggle, not living a life. i remember one day, it was so bad, i have to wear gas mask to go outisde, i know it's rare, and people are staring, but yes, its that hard. it's 2026 now, you barely see bad days in Beijing, most people wear mask only for the flu, not for the air pollutions. basically its only a few days in winter. and just wait for the wind, it all goes away. shutdown factory and move them to other places sure helps, but nobody will deny that adopt ev contributes a lot. i remeber the sales data for 2024 is nearly 45%+ of new cars are EV, and 2025 is 51.8%. i'm sure the number will go up and reach nearly 100%.
- MengerSponge 9mo agoFactories were one source, but in-home coal furnaces were a gigantic pollutant source in aggregate. I read articles about villagers banned from this who couldn't afford cleaner heat sources. Is that still the case?
- yanhangyhy 9mo agoYes. This issue was exposed by netizens on social media and has been widely reported by numerous media. The local government has now lowered natural gas prices and increased subsidies. but i think the cost is still likely higher than burning coal. Hopefully they will continue to improve this situation.
- DrProtic 9mo agoThat’s true. I remember during start of Covid lockdown we had a curfew for a few weeks yet the pollution was at 250-300. Mostly because of home heating. It’s well known at this point, it’s always polluted in the winter yet summers are “fine”.
- bruce511 9mo agoBoth ICE and EV cars require a support infrastructure. As sales trends change, so the emphasis on support infrastructure changes, and that accelerates the trend. For example EVs depend on charging, so we're seeing more public charge points, as well as more home chargers, work chargers and so on. ICE depends on gas stations (which is the tip of the gasoline distribution industry.) It also depends on ICE mechanics. As demand for those services drop off, so they'll become harder to find. (To be clear, that's not happening soon, there are a LOT of ICE cars out there...) But 50 years from now most of that ICE infrastructure will have disappeared.
- lagniappe 9mo agoI want the future to focus more on the brakes and tire dust, and the increase in cancers and other problems by people who live near busy roads or highways experience. Nobody studies this, and combustion or battery, everyone is affected by it. Even playgrounds are filled with shredded tires, which borders on biohazard.
- catgary 9mo agoEVs should do much better on brake dust thanks to regenerative braking, no?
- Espressosaurus 9mo agoBut heavier so worse on the tires. It isn’t intuitive that they’d be better off, and they might be worse on this particular dimension.
- stevenjgarner 9mo agoYes current EVs are heavy. It's not at all clear that this will prevail as solid state batteries evolve to become standard. It is highly possible that EVs will soon be lighter than comparable ICE vehicles [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46505975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46505975
- usui 9mo agoNo no no. Sure, there might be a future where solid state batteries become the standard for electric vehicles, but you cannot link to Donut Lab's announcement from this month. There is no credible evidence they've achieved the holy grail of batteries so far until they actually deliver these motorcycles in hand and people independently verify them.
- nevi-me 9mo agoTime will tell on their battery, especially if the bike they're putting it on delivers. I think the overall point could be that there's active R&D in trying to find geopolitically sustainable materials, and lowering the weight of materials used.
- dotcoma 9mo agoBut don’t they cause higher pm2.5 and pm10 pollution from braking due to the fact that EVs are heavier than vehicles powered by internal combustion ?
- achenatx 9mo ago1 pedal braking means evs often dont need new brake pads for 150K miles One problem they are experiencing is rust and glazing on the pads from disuse. They are heavier than the equivalent sized ICE so have more tire wear, but dont have to be that large in an absolute sense. Most are large luxury cars.
- ezfe 9mo agoYou’re right but one pedal drive is the wrong term. Regen braking is what you’re thinking of. One pedal drive can still use the brake pads, regen braking is what saves brake usage regardless of one pedal drive being on or not.
- nielsbot 9mo agoMaybe if they used their brakes all the time, but they don't. (Regen braking uses no brakes). That's why EVs, while heaver, require fewer brake pad replacements than ICE cars.
- petethepig 9mo agoI'm no EV expert, but I almost never use my EV's brakes — it mostly brakes using regenerative braking.
- dangus 9mo agoSomething that needs to be pointed out, especially for those who want to push back against findings like this and essentially defend ICE vehicles: Really step back and imagine a world where the modern EV [1] was first to market and a gasoline combustion engine was second. Who would actually decide to switch from a modern EV to gasoline on purpose of their own choice? The downsides of gasoline cars are actually pretty crazy: complicated engines and transmissions with heavy maintenance schedules, emissions, more NVH, worse interior space and packaging, need to wait for HVAC rather than it being ready ahead of time, need to go to a special gas station to add fuel, worse/slower performance. You would have this laundry list of downsides and your only potential plus sides are faster fueling on road trips over 4 hours long, lower curb weight, and lower cost. And those three minor down sides are very likely to be resolved sometime within the next 10-20 years. [1] Not talking about Baker Electric type of stuff that was quickly surpassed by internal combustion of its day
- crystal_revenge 9mo ago> Who would actually decide to switch from a modern EV to gasoline on purpose of their own choice? I travel monthly through rural parts of the US where EVs really don't make sense. I get the most people on HN live in suburbs/cities, but there's a lot of stuff that happens in the rural parts of the country that absolutely demands ICE vehicles. Yes the population of people out there is much smaller, but if you've ever spent serious times in these parts of the country you'd realize petroleum runs everything. Even in a world where electric vehicles came first this would still be the case.
- dangus 9mo ago80% of Americans live in urban areas and that number is rising, so I think in this scenario where EVs came first we’d see maybe 20% of vehicle sales being ICE vehicles. But today we’ve got basically the opposite. I would disagree with the idea that petroleum would run everything out there if EVs came first but I won’t argue that point super hard with you. I can see and understand how petroleum is a lifeline for things like oil heat, generators, etc. Still, batteries are very well-suited to off-grid usage, and EV batteries can even power your house for a week or more in the event of a power outage. Let’s not forget that solar panels exist. There are entire islands that have switched from imported diesel fuel power generation to grid scale solar+battery and they have had a great deal of cost savings and reliability benefits.
- baby 9mo agoYou can already tell how much of a difference it makes in a city. Visiting Boracay after visiting other philipin island is heaven. I heard some Chinese cities are basically just EV, I can’t imagine how much nicer it could be to walk through New York without all that noise pollution
- crystal_revenge 9mo agoIt's great to see a reduction in local pollution but it is worth remembering the electric vehicles ultimately have zero impact on climate change and petroleum consumption (which as continue to rise year-over-year). Oil not used in ICE cars is just used someplace else. Electric cars are great for the city/suburbs but don't really make a dent in the larger resource usage issues facing us.
- mpyne 9mo ago> Oil not used in ICE cars is just used someplace else. That's simply not true. Oil used someplace else would have been used someplace else either way. There is a supply/demand effect where reduced oil demand would lower its price and therefore arrest the loss of oil demand from cars by other consumers of oil, but the net effect would still be that less oil is burned and used.
- buckle8017 9mo agoYou're simply wrong. Most of the world is priced out of purchasing oil. When the price declines those people can (and do) buy the oil westerners aren't using. But don't trust me, here's the data. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fossil-fuel-primary-energy?tab=line&country=OWID_HIC~OWID_LMC~OWID_UMC~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fossil-fuel-primary-energ...
- mpyne 9mo ago> When the price declines those people can (and do) buy the oil westerners aren't using. You're missing that the supply drops as well since it is not economical to produce the same amount of oil as before at a lower price. As long as the supply curve does not change (and nothing about EV usage changes the supply side here), a reduction in demand leads to lower consumption. Edit: And in addition, your chart doesn't show anything like you purport it to show. By your claim, oil consumption by non-Western countries should have been drastically higher in 2000-2007 when oil prices were lower than they are today. Yet the opposite is true. Oil consumption is up over time, including in non-Western countries, but that was driven by organic changes in demand, not changes in supply. Switching to EVs would act as a reduction in demand and therefore reduce overall oil usage, at least as compared to a world where vehicle transport required ICE vehicles.
- burnt-resistor 9mo agoAnyone remember yellow-orange skies before emissions standards?
- jimbo808 9mo agoWho could have possibly anticipated this?
- senti_sentient 9mo agoI have got 15kw solar and EV, barely pay more than 50 bucks a months and that too mostly consists of daily supply charges.
- ff2400t 9mo agoYeah, this kind or Validate my own Beliefs that EV won't solve the fossil fuel burning. But they can at least make energy used by vehicle independent of the source used to generate the energy. Basically, the government and private sector can switch to renewable energy at some point even if they are using Fossil fuels today.
- nomilk 9mo agoAnyone know how far off economical EV motorcycles are? They'll be game-changers for many south east asian cities where traffic is 90% motorcycles, which seem to pollute as much (/more ?) than cars.
- deaux 9mo ago? They're already here. Seeing more and more delivery drivers zooming around on them, especially since a year or so ago. And they're not choosing them for ethical reasons, I can tell you that much.
- smi-nvidia 9mo ago[flagged]
- ubertaco 9mo agoI've had quite a few folks in my semi-rural north Georgia deep-red county (where our congressional rep wins landslide elections while literally saying Trump is like Jesus) who are convinced by my F150 Lightning. It's not a hard sell: no more oil changes, no more annual emissions-testing bill, no transmission to ever worry about, and a massive chunk of storage under the hood where the gas engine would be – plus a bunch of outlets all over for powering or charging tools. When I then tell them that I spend about $30/month on charging the thing (at home) compared to my former gas budget of ~$150-200/month, it becomes even more of a no-brainer. And none of this has anything to do with climate change. It's just plain and simple practicality. They tend to ask about range. I get around 300 miles on a full charge when road-tripping, and Buc-ees has some pretty cheap chargers (still cheaper than gas would be) that get me back on the road in about the time it takes me to use the bathroom, grab and eat some brisket, and change the baby's diaper. I've done some shortish road-trips a few times now, and not had any problems. I've got some longer ones planned this year, now that I know that I can find chargers along the way.
- wiradikusuma 9mo agoPersonally, I hope EV adoption (in Indonesia) improves, as they mostly come from China and challenge the status quo of Japanese cars. Chinese cars are a "better deal" because they give more bang for the buck. Japanese cars, on the other hand, are very "stingy" due to decades of near monopoly.
- cryptoegorophy 9mo agoIf you live in North America and have a house or townhouse get a Tesla. It is such a no brainer. $5 for 500km vs $100 for 500km (gas) is just too good
- cenamus 9mo agoSorry but where in the US does electricity cost under 10c/kWh (assuming something like 80kWh for 500km)? And 100$ for 30-40l of petrol? That'd be over 10$ per gallon
- danaris 9mo agoOr, y'know...get literally any other EV. One that doesn't support a neo-Nazi trying to wreck America's economy and political system for his own gains. I hear the Hyundai Ioniq is supposed to be pretty good.
- cryptoegorophy 9mo agoTry both. Report back. You people read too much news. Never the source.
- danaris 9mo agoAh, yes. Buy two $40k cars, one of which funds one of the people actively trying to destroy democracy. There's. A lot to unpack there. But I've still got 3 suitcases of my own stuff sitting waiting for me to get a real flat, so I think I'll pass on that and just let you assume that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and can't do their own research. And, I guess, has $80k just lying around to spend on whatever.
- wolfi1 9mo agoI know I will be damned for this comment but nevertheless even EVs produce pollution with regard to tire abrasion. Tire abrasion itself is the main contributor to microplastics
- montalbano 9mo agoRecent research suggests the issues are much less concerning than previously estimated. https://www.ch.cam.ac.uk/news/illusion-truth-surrounds-inaccurate-tyre-pollution-figures https://www.ch.cam.ac.uk/news/illusion-truth-surrounds-inacc...
- perlgeek 9mo agoThere are three main sources of air pollution from cars: 1) Byproducts from combustion (like soot and nitrogen oxides). Only ICE produce these, EVs don't 2) Break abrasion. EVs tend to do better, because they can do most of their breaking through the motor and recuperate a part of the energy 2) Tire abrasion. EVs tend to do worse here, because they tend to be heavier. So yes, EVs aren't a panacea, but overall on the topic of air pollution, they score much better than ICEs.
- feverzsj 9mo agoThe problem is battery recycling. It's highly polluted and a huge source of lead and lithium exposure.
- chrneu 9mo agoHow isolated is that compared to air pollution?
- tsoukase 9mo agoTalking generally and depending on many factors the fossil fuel yearly energy consumption for private transportation is similar with that of home heating. ICE cars are replaced with electric and boilers with heat pumps. Both help, may be the same, but in the latter case the increase in average temperature of the last three years adds to the mix.
- postepowanieadm 9mo agoComparison with the lockdown data would be interesting.
- dijit 9mo agoThe real scandal isn’t just battery degradation… it’s that manufacturers have zero incentive to solve it. Your car becoming worthless after a decade suits them down to the ground. Battery swapping changes the game entirely. Imagine a national network of exchange stations (co-located with existing petrol infrastructure, you can use the overhead canopy for solar). Standard pack sizes scaled by vehicle class: compact cars get 2 cells, vans get 4, lorries get 8. Whoever owns these battery packs now has skin in the game for longevity. Their profit depends on keeping packs in service for 20+ years, not selling you a new car. Suddenly the R&D money flows towards batteries that last, obsolescence now costs them money, and isn’t a happy accident that keeps you hooked on buying more cars. You’d still have the option to buy your own packs outright if you only ever charge at home, but the network creates the economic pressure for genuine improvement of longevity in battery tech that’s completely missing today. I’m aware that a company called “Better Place” failed. But they were a startup trying to strong-arm the automotive industry. A nationally coordinated infrastructure concern is different, and the air quality data from this study suggests we can’t afford to keep muddling through - and I really think that peoples concerns about batteries are not misplaced. Perfect is the enemy of good, but damned if we can’t at least align incentives for better.
- contingencies 9mo agoIt will take a regulator fix. Likely from the EU, who brought us USBC instead of plugpack hell.
- ako 9mo agoSo you don't think the free market will force manufactures to compete on better batteries? I always thought the benefit of the free market was that it forced companies to compete on product quality... /s
- dijit 9mo agoTo be honest with you, the free market does work when incentives are aligned. If you get maximum profit from the maximum social good, people will do that (or find a way to cheat); but as it stands, theres money to be made in not doing this and the consumer won’t care too much if its 9 years or 10 years that their car lasts, so its not hurting sales to not fix this (even if fixed perfectly, it would take 10 years to prove after all!). I think I’m dreaming, the investment would have to be enormous, who wants to hold stock of so many batteries? Who will convince manufacturers to integrate standardised batter packs instead of the more profitable “built-in phone style” that is used today, and the automotive marketing machine is really strong and will (correctly) lean on the idea that by having the battery replaceable would require less rigid car bodies, so their current incentive would be to fight this initiative and they would probably lead with the safety angle. The anti-EV propaganda already works pretty well with the very little it has to work with (farming batteries is harmful), so, imagine what they could do with something of actual substance.
- littlecranky67 9mo agoI love EVs, ever since I test drove an BMW i3 in 2012. Quiet with high drag - of course this is the future. BUT I don't think switching to EVs will help reduce CO2 in any way - not even if all the EVs are charged using 100% solar/wind. The narrative usually is "I get an EV instead of an ICE, charge it with regenerative energy and have 0 emissions, thus not burning oil and saving on CO2". But that is not how a globalized world with free markets works. In order to save on CO2, we would need to keep that oil not burned by the EV underground, but that does not take place. The market reality is that oil price will just drop with less demand from ICE vehicles. But with falling prices, other business models that require refined oil will become viable and the oil is still burned - just somewhere else. No one so far has made a good argument why the Saudis or Russians would leave their ressources underground, just because demand from ICE vehicles drop.
- high_na_euv 9mo agoWhich businesses will become viable that will consume oil at this scale?
- littlecranky67 9mo agoAviation industry comes to mind. The price of an airline ticket is mostly the fuel. With cheaper airline tickets, more people can afford to fly (especially in developing countries). And also, poor countries suddenly are able to get oil cheaper and built their industries just as we did 50 years ago.
- t_tsonev 9mo agoWhat you're missing here is that oil production and processing has huge fixed costs. Producers can't just pump out infinite oil at zero cost. The economies of scale break down and fuels become more expensive as demand drops.
- muyuu 9mo agoCars do zero Carbon capture, Utilisation and Storage (CCUS). The potential is there to emit negligible CO2 when it's only energy-intensive large industry doing the fuel burning. Having said that, the path being taken in some countries to remove ICE is simply pushing large swathes of the population out of the car market. I don't support that, although I'm sure there are many people who do.
- system2 9mo agoWe have a huge power source called the sun, but our greed is not letting us use it fully.
- otikik 9mo agoThey are still a luxury item, only affordable by a few. Although to be fair new ICE cars are also a luxury item. Most people can only buy used ICE cars these days
- olalonde 9mo agoIn the US, that is. In China, several EV models sell for under $10k, with some, like the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV, starting as low as $4k [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
- jillesvangurp 9mo agoThat used to be true; it no longer is. In the EU, some of the cheapest cars on the marker in 2026 are now electric. There are a few nice options in the 15K-20K Euro segment. These are the opposite of luxury cars. There are a quite a few new more joining the half dozen or so that were for sale last year. The trend here is that EVs are becoming the cheapest option. A few cars from Stellantis that are available in ICE and EV variants are now actually cheaper in the EV variant. This reflects the reality that batteries are now cheap and EVs don't have a lot of moving parts. So, they should be easier and cheaper to assemble. That's a trend that is spreading across all price segments in the next few years. Driven by component and cheap battery availability. Used EVs are widely available now as well. You can get some amazing deals on cars that mostly still have their drive trains + batteries under warranty. Lots of cars coming out of lease programs are sold on second hand. EVs have been very popular for car leasing for the last 6-7 years now. These are mostly still the relatively expensive models from a few years ago. The cheap EVs that are now on the market will inevitably start penetrating the second hand market in larger and larger numbers. Cheap ICE cars are disappearing rapidly from the market as models are being discontinued by manufacturers and as the market shares for ICE vehicles keep on shrinking. That means they'll also start getting more scarce in the second hand market in a few years. You'll still be able to get your Ford Fiesta. But it will be a model from before it was discontinued a few years ago. Or the new electric model that they are rumored to launch soonish.
- otikik 9mo ago
- Revolution1120 9mo agoFor the environmental impact within a specific region, electric vehicles are indeed much better than cars. However, when it comes to things like greenhouse gases and global warming, that's likely just Elon Musk's lie.
- dalyons 9mo agoWhat? That makes no sense
- paganel 9mo agoThey’ve just moved the pollution out of the gentrified areas that can afford to purchase EVs at scale. Which was part of the initial goal when pushing for this insanity, as the plebs were polluting with the air of the much better off by using their 20-years old clunkers (or at least that was the discourse here in Europe). Mission about to be accomplished, those plebs now can take the bus if they still want mobility.
- matt3210 9mo agoI want and EV but I don't have a charger and I cant have a charger since I live in an apartment.
- Rygian 9mo agoIf you park in the street, and there are public chargers in a 1-km radius around your apartment, you can probably make it by "topping-up" every two or three days on a public charger. Unless you spend upwards of 40% of your battery daily, you'll be good. If you own a parking spot in your apartment complex, and depending on your jurisdiction, you can install your own charger.
- Mystery-Machine 9mo agoYou can even charge once a week or even less, depends on the usage. You also don't have a gas station inside your apartment. Depending on which car you get, you could go charge it to charging station. I'm not saying this is instant process.
- 1970-01-01 9mo agoThat's a poor excuse today. I'm not trying to be pushy but have you dismissed the LFP battery EVs? Those you charge fully once every other week, just like your average ICE vehicle. The time spent recharging can be spent grocery shopping or something else productive.
- luckys 9mo agoBecause this is HN, (in Allo Allo's Michelle Dubois voice...) "I shall say this only wonce": If you're curious, have a look at Earth's historical temperature and co2 data going back millions of years. What you'll notice is that there's always been oscillations, like a more or less predictable wave. Human activity is polluting the Earth, yes, but this fixation on co2 and other gases (cow farts, really?) is unhealthy to put it mildly. I'd like to see the same attention being given to plastics (so much single-use crap and how much of it can be recycled?), synthetic clothing, and all kinds of other chemicals including the ones we put in ourselves (pharma, food) and the environment, like fertilizers or the byproducts of mining today's fashionable minerals like lithium. Not to mention the explosion in electromagnetic frequencies activity, which somehow is taken as normal and ok by the same scientific establishment which accepts thousands(?) of fake papers every year for publication. You just have to love the irony when something like Science is deemed 'settled'-- in that regard, it's almost as if we went back a few centuries. There's certainly a lot to be said for humans needing to take better care of the planet. Co2 just gets a little too much attention for my taste. And don't take from this that I love oil. I find fracking to be abominable and another big factor in polluting the land and the water tables.
- raducu 9mo ago> notice is that there's always been oscillations There's always been oscilations, true, but the rate o change and trend on those oscilations is the real issue.
- luckys 9mo agoHappy to be shown where I can learn more about this different rate of change and trend which sets our current climate change apart from the rest of Earth's history.
- sagacity 9mo agoIt seems like you won't have any trouble finding that yourself if you really wanted to. This "I'm just asking questions" mode you're in can be considered a type of trolling called "sealioning". More details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
- nottorp 9mo agoWell, if EVs are made mandatory we'll have even less air polution because fewer people will be able to afford a car. The auto industry seems to have ran out of early adopters already. Now they need a kick in the privates to make cheap EVs.
- jonstewart 9mo agoI’m reading your comment more sardonically about the state of US manufacturers, but globally I don’t think this holds up. Some of the most expensive vehicles—trucks and SUVs—have the worst mileage. Often the cheaper a new car is, the better gas mileage it gets. This dynamic might not hold as consistently with used cars but it’s not entirely eliminated, either.
- nottorp 9mo agoWhat does this have to do with mileage? It's about affording to pay for the damn car itself. Compare the same category of car in gasoline and EV versions. See how the EV adds 10k to the price. Not much by silicon valley latte standards of course. A lot by "i can barely afford a barebones renault" standards though.
- b40d-48b2-979e 9mo agoCompare the same category of car in gasoline and EV versions. Have you looked at the bulk of cars people are buying new? They're $60K+ trucks and SUVs. Those same people could be buying EVs today.
- nottorp 9mo agoI did say something about SV lattes didn't I? Not everyone is over there. Plus how much is the EV version of a 60k usd truck? 75k? More?
- mittensc 9mo agoChinese EVs are much cheaper then traditional ICE cars.
- podgorniy 9mo agoReduction in pollution in where EV are used or where produced?
- rpozarickij 9mo agoI've developed a habit of holding my breath for a few seconds whenever a particularly smelly/polluting car drives by me while I'm walking on the street, so when I hear/see an EV approaching I often feel relieved. I'm lucky to live in a city with comparatively clean air, but I hope a time comes when we treat car exhaust gases the same way as we treat second hand tobacco smoke because in both cases pollutants are literally being absorbed into our bodies.
- freeopinion 9mo agoDoes the study account for things like coal-fired power plants in Delta, Utah being operated by Los Angeles Department of Water and Power? This makes for less pollution at the site of the vehicle, and more pollution two giant western states away.
- rootusrootus 9mo agoYes, studies account for worst case coal power production. The pollution controls at a power plant are significantly more effective than the on-vehicle pollution controls for a gasoline engine.
- throwaway-11-1 9mo agoWhat do you think refineries are doing
- Rebelgecko 9mo agoNo, it's based on measurements in California where in-state coal is negligible (something like .1% of our total electricity). A power plan in Utah would only show up if the pollutants wafted their way across state lines
- raydev 9mo agoimo The final hurdle for mass adoption is solving the refueling planning problem. I was in the market for a new car in 2024. Thought seriously about a few electric options but opted for another ICE vehicle because 2025/2026 are years of many road trips, and the issue that kept coming up for me was "can I just pull off any random highway and refill my car in a few minutes?" Unfortunately for the environment I guess, I prefer not being forced to strictly plan my trips around distance and availability and speed of chargers. I can go pretty much anywhere in North America and be reasonably certain there's a gas station just off any highway, let alone an interstate. "Oh, do the kids need to use the bathroom ASAP? Might as well fill up a quarter tank while we're there" opportunities would also vanish. And even if charging stations were magically placed across the country to match gas stations, there'd still be the "time to charge" problem.
- iambateman 9mo agoThis is becoming less of an issue, but there’s no question it’s a barrier. To be honest, the bigger barrier I see is around political will to charge the true social cost of gasoline. Some nonprofits think the true cost of burning gas is $10-15/gallon. If filling up with gas cost $250 and charging an EV was 85% cheaper, I’d be willing to wait 30 minutes for an occasional charge.
- hvb2 9mo agoNot sure what age your kids are, but if they're below 10 I can guarantee you that your kids will be slowing you down, bit the car. Kids need to use the bathroom would be filling up the battery well over 25% if it wasn't almost full. The one thing people that have never owned an EV seem to miss is the benefits that you get to experience every day. No gearbox, so seamless acceleration. No maintenance on, spark plugs, timing belts, gearbox. No oil changes. A quieter ride, especially nice on a road trip.
- BeetleB 9mo agoThe thing with young kids is they tend not to be good at timing restroom breaks with the availability of charging. By the time they tell you, you need to stop at the nearest gas station - they can't wait for you to drive 20 miles to the next charging station. > No maintenance on, spark plugs, timing belts, gearbox. No oil changes. A quieter ride, especially nice on a road trip. I'm thinking of getting an EV, so I'll see how much I like this. I can say that this is pretty much not a hassle for me with my ICE car - over the last 20+ years. But then I tend to buy reliable cars and didn't fall for the manufactured "3 months or 3000 miles" rule. I keep track of all my costs. I average about $500 a year in maintenance (includes tires, oil changes, brakes, etc). I just checked with the insurance company - the increase in my annual premiums for the EV car I'm looking at is $400 more than if I got an equivalent ICE car. And one still needs to change tires, etc on an EV. So the repair/maintenance savings aren't there.