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> it’s abundantly clear that the talented folks who used to work on the product have moved on to bigger and better things, with the remaining losers eager to in
by johnfn 11mo ago
> it’s abundantly clear that the talented folks who used to work on the product have moved on to bigger and better things, with the remaining losers eager to inflict some kind of bloated, buggy JavaScript framework on us in the name of progress.
> More importantly, Actions is created by monkeys
This writing really does not reflect well on Zig. If you have technical issues with Github, fine: cite them. But leave ad hominems like "losers" and "monkeys" out of it.
- halJordan 11mo agoThe unfortunate truth is that this is where we are as a society. It doesn't reflect poorly on them. It reflects well. They're straightshooters. Theyre not afraid to speak candidly (your definition of candid may differ). They inject humor. You may not like it personally, but it doesn't reflects poorly even if it should. We're at the tail end of a long decline.
- kanwisher 11mo agopretty sure there was no humor there, just looks poorly upon the author
- _heimdall 11mo agoIt sure reads like it was meant satirically to me. Whether one finds it funny or offensive is up to the reader though, and I assume the GP is basically saying an article should be written such that "or offensive" isn't reasonably on the table.
- GolDDranks 11mo agoCalling people monkeys and losers doesn't particularly tickle my sense of humor. If anything, it reminds me of Linus Torvalds from his toxic ages. Fortunately, he has matured well. Andrew seems like a smart guy, I hope that he will have the emotional maturity to realize that you can be no-bullshit and straight to the point without the need to call people names.
- oaiey 11mo agoHe shot the wrong entity.
- brendoelfrendo 11mo agoNah, fuck 'em. Call out corpo bullshit where you see it. Github is just LinkedIn for people with compsci degrees now.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- notepad0x90 11mo agoAnd what's wrong with that? Even if you're right, just don't use it, why insult and denigrate people?
- brendoelfrendo 11mo agoBecause they deserve to know they're making the world a worse place.
- wilg 11mo agoGitHub is definitely not making the world a worse place. Touch grass.
- brendoelfrendo 11mo agoOk, fine; that was hyperbole. They are incrementally making their product worse in very visible ways and for some reason refuse to fix it or change course. I mean, in introducing these inconveniences to their users they are technically making the world worse, but sure, not in a way that matters.
- wilg 11mo agoAnd that rises to the bar of "insult and denigrate people" to you? Because you're annoyed with their recent product decisions?
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- jimmyed 11mo agoI agree that the article is strongly worded, and Andrew seems quite angry/frustrated. However, it also gives me flashbacks of how it was back in the golden days, when Linus was calling wannabe kernel contributors idiots who should have died because they "couldn't find their mothers tit to suck on". Having low patience is a quirk of our nerd culture, and now that the woke season has ended, it seems to be going back to how it has always been!
- xedrac 11mo agoWhile I generally think constructive criticism is usually the right choice, I suspect Github will never get the message unless there are some very strongly worded criticisms. In Andrew's defense, he did post some constructive evidence of things he considered problematic.
- baq 11mo agoThe most effective message GitHub can receive is when they don’t get to invoice you. GHA in particular is a hot mess, I’m as surprised as a decade ago that anybody is using this crap. IMHO it’s bugs as a service kind of product, and the bugs start at the core design with the ‘pretend yaml but actually an unholy mix of shell, js and json’ language.
- johnfn 11mo agoA high-profile repository like Zig moving off of Github is as loud a message as one can give. Tossing in "losers" and "monkeys" only muddies the delivery.
- oaiey 11mo agoExactly. I have not finished reading the post. And I never will. It destroys the message and the reputation
- testdelacc1 11mo agoTreating people poorly isn’t a quirk of nerd culture. Even Linus doesn’t think so. > This is my reality. I am not an emotionally empathetic kind of person and that probably doesn't come as a big surprise to anybody. Least of all me. The fact that I then misread people and don't realize (for years) how badly I've judged a situation and contributed to an unprofessional environment is not good. > This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been both unprofessional and uncalled for. > Especially at times when I made it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me. I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry. The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely. > I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people's emotions and respond appropriately. And he walked the walk. He became better after that. Linux is a better project for it. But I suppose it did influence a generation of people in software who looked up to Linus and thought this is the correct way to treat people you perceive as beneath you.
- zeofig 11mo agoWe're past the point of civility when it comes to things like github and M$0FT's involvement.
- notepad0x90 11mo agoThankfully, many of us are not in that "We" group you're referring. This is a toxic culture I want no part of. It says a lot about the nature of the Zig community.
- notepad0x90 11mo agoYou're right, I've been hearing lots of good things about Zig and I wanted to check it out but I'm glad I saw this post. I want no part of this thing. I've heard people call other people "monkeys" before in a work setting. it's never good. Fact is, you don't need to call anyone names or insult them. The takeaway for me is that the Zig project is led by people who are extremely immature and toxic. I simply don't trust any decision these people make. If you can't bring yourself to respectfully disagree with other human beings, if you resort to calling names and insults targetted at developers because of bugs, then i don't trust you to not backdoor your own code, or do something harmful to those who rely on your work because of some drama, spat or activism. Even if actual political activists did this it would be unacceptable. If you called Netanyahu a monkey because of his Gaza genocide, most people who are pro-palestine will try to cancel you! Not because they think highly of him, but because it hurts the cause more than it helps. Andrew: It seems you don't respect your own self or your community enough to set an example of decorum and civility. You've made Zig a platform for your own personal shitposting. Please do better!
- andsoitis 11mo ago> I simply don't trust any decision these people make Do you have an example or two of poor decisions that push you away so strongly?
- vips7L 11mo agoYes, calling people monkeys is a bad decision.
- notepad0x90 11mo agoClearly, my distrust is based on Andrew's publicly displayed character, not an analysis of historical behavior. When you see a Chef not wash his hands after using a restroom, you should avoid eating at their restaurant, even if you have no proof they don't wash their hands in the kitchen prior to cooking. The important observation for me is that he didn't know where to draw the line, and this is regarding people he doesn't work with, unknown/random Microsoft employees. Will he cross the line if someone he does know and trust does something he disagrees with? I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the bar is high when it comes to trusted software like programming language compilers. I wish Zig all the success, but only if it's community and the tech community as a whole can hold it's leadership accountable instead of making excuses and defending him like this. It's ok to tell people you admire and respect they screwed up.
- temptemptemp111 11mo ago[dead]
- Waterluvian 11mo agoYeah this is pretty embarrassing. I get frustrated with tech all the time! I get it. Grr when Actions feels so irritatingly misbehaved… But how you handle or fail to handle your frustration demonstrates the competence of your character and speaks volumes of what you’d be like to work with.
- oofbey 11mo agoAlso important to note that this post was authored by the original author of zig, who presumably effectively controls the project.
- ImHereToVote 11mo agoYou would be happier working in a kindergarten. I truly mean that. Think about it. Not trying to be rude.
- foldr 11mo agoA lot of us here have real world jobs where people don’t call us losers or monkeys when we fuck up. This isn’t some kind of hypothetical Big Rock Candy Mountain of professional conduct. It’s just what working life is like for a lot of people.
- oefrha 11mo agoNot only do we not call coworkers losers or monkeys when they fuck up, I don’t think I’ve seen this when telling mean jokes about competitors in private conversations either. Individuals who are jerks about people you don’t like tend to also be jerks about you behind your back, and we don’t want that, so we don’t it. If your workplace has a lot of name calling, consider the possibility that it may be unusually toxic, and the possibility that you’re making it toxic.
- Capricorn2481 11mo agoIf you call people at work monkeys when you don't like their work, you're closer to Kindergarten than you think.
- ssivark 11mo ago> created by monkeys I don't particularly care for either Zig or Github, but... they do precisely cite the technical issues. That snippet links to a Github discussion comment https://github.com/actions/runner/issues/3792#issuecomment-3182746514 https://github.com/actions/runner/issues/3792#issuecomment-3... (reproduced below) "The bug in this "safe sleep" script is obvious from looking at it: if the process is not scheduled for the one-second interval in which the loop would return (due to $SECONDS having the correct value), then it simply spins forever. That can easily happen on a CI machine under extreme load. When this happens, it's pretty bad: it completely breaks a runner until manual intervention. On Zig's CI runner machines, we observed multiple of these processes which had been running for hundreds of hours, silently taking down two runner services for weeks." "I don't understand how we got here. Even ignoring the pretty clear bug, what makes this Bash script "safer" than calling into the POSIX standard sleep utility? It doesn't seem to solve any problem; meanwhile, it's less portable and needlessly eats CPU time by busy-waiting." "The sloppy coding which is evident here, as well as the inaction on core Actions bugs (in line with the decay in quality of almost every part of GitHub's product), is forcing the Zig project to strongly consider moving away from GitHub Actions entirely. With this bug, and many others (severe workflow scheduling issues resulting in dozens of timeouts; logs randomly becoming inaccessible; random job cancellations without details; perpetually "pending" jobs), we can no longer trust that Actions can be used to implement reliable CI infrastructure. I personally would seriously encourage other projects, particularly any using self-hosted runners, to look carefully at the stability of Actions and ask themselves whether it is a solution worth sticking with long-term when compared with alternatives." ---- I agree that the writing in the blog post is more colorful than precise, but sanitizing every bit of expression dulls the internet. Humans invented language for a reason.
- dpkirchner 11mo agoI must be missing something huge here, or maybe it's the wine -- how is the code in PR 3157 (referenced in a later comment) a proper fix? https://github.com/actions/runner/pull/3157/files https://github.com/actions/runner/pull/3157/files Is : doing something unusual in GH actions?
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- ericpruitt 11mo agoAmusingly, this post violates Zig's own code of conduct: https://ziglang.org/code-of-conduct https://ziglang.org/code-of-conduct > Examples of behavior that contribute to creating a positive environment include: > - Using welcoming and inclusive language. > - Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences. > - Showing empathy towards others. > - Showing appreciation for others’ work.
- quantummagic 11mo agoCodes of conduct are perfunctory virtue signalling. Do we really need a unique set of "rules" posted on every project? They all sound like they were written by the same AI bot. That said, it's telling that the Zig leader can't even follow them. The rules should just be taken down.
- SanjayMehta 11mo agoCoC are the HR department of open source.
- serial_dev 11mo ago> HR is to protect the company, not the employee The CoC is not there to protect the community, but to protect all the bad actors and give ammunition to attack the good ones. Happens every time, the maintainers who add CoCs to projects have no problem being an ahole to others. Update: I know some people love their CoCs, but answer me this, how is this kind of childish name calling allowed and still online, if what I wrote above is not true?
- prmoustache 11mo ago> Update: I know some people love their CoCs, but answer me this, how is this kind of childish name calling allowed and still online, if what I wrote above is not true? Where you born 30 minutes ago to not have realized yet that people are not infallible, are subjects of emotions and contradict themselves all the time?
- beepbooptheory 11mo agoThe "monkeys" here are clearly refering to those kinds with typewriters.
- DANmode 11mo agovs…?
- lmm 11mo agoApparently there's some specific US cultural history of people calling black people "monkeys" as a racist insult, and so some people from there immediately leap to assume that any use of "monkey" as an insult is that.
- wilg 11mo agoRidiculous to claim this is a "US-specific thing" https://www.academia.edu/22669911/Comparing_black_people_to_monkeys_has_a_long_dark_simian_history_by_Wulf_D_Hund_and_Charles_W_Mills_?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.academia.edu/22669911/Comparing_black_people_to_...
- DANmode 11mo agoOh wow. Following now. Sheesh.
- ekropotin 11mo agoWhat racism has to do with it? https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=code%20monkey https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=code%20monke...
- brabel 11mo agoYou think that’s an American thing only?? Oh boy, I have bad news.
- blahedo 11mo agoEvidently not "clearly", given the number of people who didn't see it, but that was my first interpretation as well: I took it as an "infinite monkeys" reference that, in context, was probably standing in for "some un-tested gen AI output". Which, clicking on the link, seems to be what happened? Anyway, yes, "infinite monkeys on typewriters" seemed to be the relevant meaning of "monkeys" here.
- jaredhallen 11mo agoI agree that he came out blasting, and the language and tone, particularly at the beginning are pretty off-putting. That being said, having read the full post, I can't say I disagree with the motives and point of view.
- oaiey 11mo agoI have not finished the post because of the tone at the beginning. IT at higher ranks is about people. This post disqualifies Zig as an org.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- mmaunder 11mo agoAgreed. Came here to point out that the lack of professionalism and common courtesy here is reminiscent of the dark entitled days of open source in the late 90s that had attitude of "We build free software so we can tell you to go fuck yourself.". Hope we're not headed back there.
- DANmode 11mo agoI’ll take that vs no open source software contributors. Elitism is far from the worst character trait unpaid code janitors can be expected to have.
- Nathanba 11mo agoI have a lot of understanding for such personalities too, I'm probably quite like this myself although I try my hardest to not open my mouth like this. For example I got blocked by Jonathan Blow over a simple question on twitter but I don't think too badly of him now, it's just a miscalculation on his part or him trying to optimize his life as a passionate person. But you really need to make sure to be right when you are putting other people down. I mean REALLY right, you need to tripple check that what you are doing is going to help an honest person to improve themselves. So my opinion is: You can be super critical but you have to be right. I'm not going to touch the political parts. But my main point is that the migration itself is obviously not well done, he isn't even migrating issues nor migrating perks for sponsors, splitting the community and attention apart. You could even say that he's critical of people who keep using github sponsors. In my view the text is implying that you are hurting ziglang if you keep using this thing that is a liability for ziglang... oh the horror of giving someone money in a way he doesn't like. People like this forget that contributors are doing free work for them too, it's not just one way. Everything that creates friction for them is real work you just caused them.
- messe 11mo ago> I got blocked by Jonathan Blow You're probably better off for it to be honest.
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- shridharxp 11mo agoIt's okay to bring some "natural" language in technical communication. It feels more humane. All the whitewashed corporate language, riddled marketing bullshit feels so soul dead.
- adrianN 11mo agoYou can express dissatisfaction and anger „naturally“ without calling people losers and monkeys.
- MarcelOlsz 11mo agoI think it's a breath of fresh air. Don't want to be called out like this then stop fucking up.
- petersellers 11mo agoI'm sure getting called a monkey will stop them from ever making a mistake again.
- teo_zero 11mo agoIf this was true, teachers and trainers would have the easiest job in the world: just insulting their pupils would stop them from failing an exam, race or whatever again.
- ternaryoperator 11mo agoThe comment is clearly sarcasm.
- patates 11mo agoI could try to explain that most jobs are way more nuanced than just 'failing and deserving to be called a monkey' or 'not failing.' Or, I could just call you names for not seeing that, you could call me names back, and we can keep doing this forever.
- oefrha 11mo agoWell at least he's being a jerk on his own blog here, so it's easy to ignore. I've seen instances of him unreasonably lashing out without the decency of understanding others' writings first on third party properties. A quick search turned up https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-libc-taking-a-dependency-on-boost-math-for-the-c-17-math-special-functions https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-libc-taking-a-dependency-on... can't remember the details of other instances.
- rurban 11mo agoNothing to see there, sorry.
- sieabahlpark 11mo ago[dead]
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- anhldbk 11mo agoWell said. It's not good to see such arguments like these.
- chmod775 11mo agoOh no! Anyways... I love zig and I'm glad they're moving off what GitHub has become, not least because enough high profile projects leaving might make them focus on what matters again.
- throwaway150 11mo ago> But leave ad hominems like "losers" and "monkeys" out of it. Ad hominem happens when someone undermines the argument based on the speaker's background. Here they are not undermining any argument. They're just name calling. This is name calling, not ad hominem.
- kees99 11mo ago> bloated, buggy JavaScript framework Isn't that the unfortunate status quo? At least hard requirement for JS, that is. Google's homepage started requiring this recently. Linux kernel's git, openwrt, esp32.com, and many many others now require it too, via dreaded "Making sure you're not a bot" thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44962529 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44962529 If anything, github is (thankfully) behind the curve here - at least some basics do work without JS.
- begueradj 11mo agoAnd insulting publicly developers like that isn't ok.
- timcobb 11mo ago> Stuff that used to be snappy is now sluggish and often entirely broken. and as of when was GitHub known for its snappiness?
- throwaway150 11mo agoGitHub was very snappy in the early days. I remember how refreshing I found GitHub when it was new. I don't know when but sometime after 2020 it has just been going downhill.
- oaiey 11mo agoCame here to say that. Killed my curiosity towards Zig in an instant. What a disrespect. A pity. Saw Zig as something rising but with this kind of toxicity, no thanks.
- sgt 11mo agoIt's probably a lapse, don't read into it too much. You can't expect people to tip toe around. Just give him feedback.
- carlmr 11mo ago>A pity. Saw Zig as something rising but with this kind of toxicity, no thanks. Don't get me wrong, it is a bit toxic. However, I feel like taking one comment in a larger article and blowing it up out of proportion is just as toxic.
- amake 11mo ago> blowing it up out of proportion is just as toxic One person decided that something wasn't for them. How is that in the same league as someone in a leadership position being unprofessional?
- carlmr 11mo agoI personally don't care too much for hierarchies, so I didn't factor this in. You can be toxic at any level.
- amake 11mo ago> You can be toxic at any level And yet the context is extremely important. > I didn't factor this in That's how you get to false equivalencies.
- carlmr 11mo ago>That's how you get to false equivalencies. No, you're just putting something into it which doesn't matter to me. Not a false equivalency.
- testdelacc1 11mo agoGod this entire thread is just people defending him as “a breath of fresh air” and “just using human language”. There is something in people that makes them enjoy seeing others belittled like this. A complete lack of empathy, because no one would like to be treated this way themselves, but are perfectly happy seeing others treated this way. One commenter justifies it by saying “if I’m fucking up, it’s ok to speak to me this way”. Sure guy, we believe you. This reminds me of when Linus Torvalds would lose his shit now and then and launch gratuitous personal attacks at people who had made mistakes. Comment sections would be filled with folks laughing at Linus’ latest victim. “Couldn’t be me, I would never make this mistake”. Even Linus admits he was wrong to treat people this way and he’s taken time off to work on himself and become a better person. But there is still no shortage of people who enjoy seeing pain inflicted on others, nor people larping as a younger Linus.
- throwaway150 11mo ago> no one would like to be treated this way themselves I'd like to be treated this way if I am doing really stupid things. If I am doing the kind of stupid things GitHub is doing, I'd rather someone call me out as a monkey so that I know I f-ed up. I know calling "monkey" is not professional but my expectation of professional treatment stops at my office with my colleagues and at a few other places. I don't expect the whole world to be professional to me. I can take some bloke on the internet calling me a monkey if that helps me to introspect and make things right. If they're nice about it and choose professional words to tell me I'm being stupid, that's great. But if they cannot and they call me "monkey", I'll take that too. I'd rather have the feedback in whatever words they can muster than not have the feedback at all.
- aschla 11mo agoMany people are tired of the toxic positivity common in corporate speak, which lets poor performers off the hook, and prevents high-quality talent from speaking freely. "A complete lack of empathy" is a bit of a stretch, no? Calling someone a monkey is fairly lighthearted, while getting the point across that maybe they should take stock of the awareness of their abilities.
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- rurban 11mo agoHe probably read too many Linux kernel mailinglist posts recently. But I agree on the Devon Zuegel praise. Most of the good devs and managers are gone. Only brian for the git SHA-256 migration is still there I think, though he got no time finishing it.
- paulddraper 11mo ago> eager to inflict some kind of bloated, buggy JavaScript framework on us in the name of progress Could someone elaborate what that JS framework is? Is this recent? I think GitHub was built on Rails, and the UI has changed relatively little in the past few years.
- paulddraper 11mo agoIt means to be snidely controversial. > Putting aside GitHub’s relationship with ICE… If you actual actually wanted to put that aside, you could have…put it aside. (Plus it being weird on a substantive basis. Selectively blacklisting specific government agencies…that’s just not a sustainable approach.)
- eviks 11mo agoWhat's unsustainable about it?
- paulddraper 11mo agoI thought this was obvious, but you will be asked to evaluate every government/organization on their morales. So they enforce immigration laws, not enforce it, enforce improperly, do they support abortion, do they support the right side in the Middle East, do they have racist policies, do they not have anti-racist policies, do they limit freedom of speech, do they not limit free speech enough. Every service has rules but are the rules clear and consistent enough that organizations can reliably use the service without worrying they’ll be terminated.
- eviks 11mo ago> you will be asked to evaluate every government/organization on their morales So what? Obviously you won't respond to all the permutations, so can draw only some red lines. > without worrying they’ll be terminated Yes, you can have some principles without increasing these concerns
- paulddraper 11mo ago> Obviously you won't That's what I meant by not scalable/sustainable.
- raincole 11mo agoQuite on-brand of Zig, though.
- myaccountonhn 11mo agoEh I thought it was on point. The github CEO talking about adopt ai or get out uses no curse words or direct insults, but i found it far more threatening and distasteful. Hackernews seems to consistently believe that you can be terrible as long as you're polite.
- huimang 11mo agoLook at the issue linked. While I don't think that language is preferable, at some point we need to call out terrible and lazy code.
- MaxfordAndSons 11mo agoIt doesn't reflect well, but also, is it not fairly par for the course from a BDFL type? Surely Linus Torvalds has said meaner things at some point on a listserv. Why does this guy get blasted for it? Because people still have generally positive sentiment towards Github? Just a day or 2 ago some other article was making similarly "ad hominem" attacks towards anonymous Youtube PMs, it got tons of upvotes and nobody clutched their pearls for the poor PMs. The Github/MS engineers who maintain actions (whose poor performance probably isn't even the result of any single individuals bad code), will be fine. Seems like the HN mob is just as capricious as the author in deciding who gets as pass or not.
- latexr 11mo ago> Surely Linus Torvalds has said meaner things at some point on a listserv. It boggles the mind why people keep using Linus as an excuse to justify rudeness. Linus apologised, he recognised what he did for years was not OK, and took time off to reflect and become a better person. > Seems like the HN mob is just as capricious as the author in deciding who gets as pass or not. Are all the people who commented in that submission commenting on this one? No? Then it’s not the same group of people, and opinions are different. There’s no “mob”, HN isn’t a hive mind. If it were, you’d be part of it and agree.
- Jean-Papoulos 11mo agoI much prefer the authors of anything on the internet be honest about what they think instead of self-censoring their language. I really thought we all agreed on disliking Newspeak ?
- Levitating 11mo agoi think the word "losers" was replaced by "rookies"
- yobbo 11mo agoKicking up is very different from kicking down. Zig is not kicking down here.
- isodev 11mo agoMonkeys, LLMs, coding agents, AI - are all synonyms for me. Not to be confused with actual living things.
- rohitpaulk 11mo agoFor those who haven't seen the actual issue that links to, I'd take a closer look. Pretty insane: https://github.com/actions/runner/issues/3792#issuecomment-3182746514 https://github.com/actions/runner/issues/3792#issuecomment-3...
- creato 11mo agoYeah, calling the authors of this code losers and monkeys is being kind. There is zero excuse for ever writing code like this, the incompetence is staggering.
- _jplc 11mo agoBut he is right
- Ygg2 11mo agoI thought people knew andrewk was an ahole? I thought that was his supposed charm? Like Linus. I mean https://github.com/ziglang/zig/pull/24317 https://github.com/ziglang/zig/pull/24317 wasn't that long ago.
- sgt 11mo agoWhat's wrong with that pull request?
- Ygg2 11mo agoI might have linked the wrong PR. Well here is the full context. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44766771#44809551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44766771#44809551
- sgt 11mo agoHard to tell from that PR... but just looking at it, it does look a bit chaotic. Maybe if it wasn't clear, he should have discussed it with the core devs before? I cannot imagine it's easy maintaining an open source projects with PR's flowing in without context.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- vanschelven 11mo agoThis writing made me curious enough to click the provided citation though, and I'd have to say "monkeys" is really being kind if we take into account the combination of code quality issues, lack of surrounding process, and _what_ these code quality issues are affecting (the criticalness of the path).
- austin-cheney 11mo agoAs a former JavaScript developer and current JavaScript hobbyist I see why this article’s language is deeply offensive. Most employed JavaScript developers absolutely suck at what they do and are highly sensitive about it. Everything other than praise is offensive. The surest indication of maturity is abandoning politeness in favor of evidence, empathy, or stronger arguments. On the other hand Zig is often regarded as the fastest executing modern programming language. They have earned the ability to complain about performance like no one else. The article cites precise issues they have with GitHub. Furthermore JavaScript, when not written by monkeys, is extremely fast which further qualifies their complaint. For example I have a large SPA that loads in the browser from across a network in around 0.065 seconds and achieves full rendering and state restoration in about 0.135 seconds. If I drop the largest one feature from that SPA I can get full rendering and state restoration in about 0.08 seconds. Your typical JavaScript developer, on the other hand, struggles to copy/paste code into a JSX template someone else defined with no idea how to measure performance. To me that’s what’s offensive.
- the__alchemist 11mo agoYea... Nail in the coffin on them for me.
- bfreis 11mo agoSeems like Andrew realize how insane it was name calling fellow software engineers and updated his post to not call Github engineers "monkeys" anymore. Still a shame he did it initially, and that he didn't apologize for it, but removing that is better than nothing.