22 ms·

Touchscreens are out, and tactile controls are back

• grugagag 2y ago
  Im surprised touchscreens ever passed compliance for automobiles, in some cases they’re a downright danger.
  • vdvsvwvwvwvwv 2y ago
    To the point where if the touchscreen happens to be loose, and have it's own battery I could lose my license for touching it (unless maybe it is cradled).
• taylodl 2y ago
  Sanity prevails!
• jsemrau 2y ago
  I loved they keyboard of my Blackberry tbh. Why can't a future iPhone can have a slidable keyboard?
• gatane 2y ago
  Hell yeah, buttons are back baby
• andsoitis 2y ago
  Conspiracy by button manufacturers! More seriously, there are tradeoffs either way. Physical knobs give great feedback, require less cognitive load, and remain fixed. The latter is also where touch screens shine - the UI can evolve over time. In some settings touch screens are superior to physical buttons and in other scenarios it is the reverse. Choose the right button for the job.
  • JadeNB 2y ago
    > Choose the right button for the job. I think that the problem comes with what the article mentions in the first paragraph—there are some places where UI might evolve with time, but my kitchen appliances, my washing machine, and much of my car are not places where I expect new UI paradigms, or want them if somebody dreams one up. Sure, the pendulum will eventually swing back again the other way to too much skeumorphism, but for now I'm going to push reflexively for physical buttons first, and ask questions later.
  • ctoth 2y ago
    Why would I ever want my oven or stove to evolve over time?
    • alamortsubite 2y ago
      Not you, your overlords.
      • greenchair 2y ago
        oven overlords
        • drivers99 2y ago
          ovenshitification
    • beezlewax 2y ago
      How can you get your clients to pay an oven subscription otherwise?
      • superposeur 2y ago
        Truly a vision of dystopia.
    • RobotToaster 2y ago
      You don't want your oven to play ads for the latest peppermint and pineapple flavoured chicken tenders?
    • xxr 2y ago
      Cooks love the sense of pride and accomplishment they feel when they unlock new modes and temperatures, and they really go nuts over learning about exciting new products and services by the appliance’s partners in a way that is uniquely targeted to them /s
      • mmooss 2y ago
  • LocalH 2y ago
    > The latter is also where touch screens shine - the UI can evolve over time. This is not necessarily a benefit. Such interfaces often break muscle memory when they change, often with no choice to the user. At least manufacturers can't come in when you have physical controls and suddenly replace your control panel without consent because they have a "better" one.
    • frde_me 2y ago
      Quite honestly, as long as the UX is _actually_ improving, I'm completely fine with having to adapt. I don't want to live in a world where things stay the same just because it's comfortable. Having said that, at least 50% of the time that people change the experience, it makes it worst. So I agree that for companies that don't know how to design interfaces, this is maybe a benefit.
  • wannacboatmovie 2y ago
    Evolve? Or let a faceless company disrupt my workflow when they bundle UI "enhancements" with security updates?
    • Rygian 2y ago
      s/my workflow/me driving down a highway at deadly speeds/
  • BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
    >The latter is also where touch screens shine - the UI can evolve over time. I think that also serves as a perverse incentive: no need to make it as perfect as possible the first time, you can always fix it later! Tech debt, coming to the controls of your moving 1~2 tons of metal, f yeah!
  • meindnoch 2y ago
    Touchscreens are a viable alternative to buttons only if the system can react to touches within at most 500ms. We have enough evidence now to conclude that only Apple and Google engineers are capable of such an undertaking. Everyone else should stick to physical buttons.
    • lomase 2y ago
      For context I did development with a Teensy board and the library I was using for physical buttons claims to have 20 nanoseconds latency using the CPU interrupts.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • pdimitar 2y ago
    UI can evolve over time -- for appliances that need it. Almost none of them need it, and always always the "UI enhancements" are stuff nobody asked for, like 24/7 telemetry to servers that are gods know where. No thanks. Another commenter beat me to it but I'll just join him to reinforce their point: UI changes also break muscle which is something extremely important to have in a car and in your home appliances. People just don't enjoy relearning their own machines when they expect the job to be done with minimal cognitive overhead.
  • MiddleEndian 2y ago
    >The latter is also where touch screens shine - the UI can evolve over time. Yeah no thanks.
  • croisillon 2y ago
    building kitchen appliances has been an incredible journey but we will be sunsetting all your appliances within 30 days, thanks for believing in us!
  • snapcaster 2y ago
    Can you point to a single instance where the UI scheme for _an appliance_ was evolved over time in a way consumers like? I understand what you're saying is theoretically possible I just can't think of any instance in which it happened
    • parasubvert 2y ago
      TVs evolved from knobs on the device to buttons on a remote (or touchscreen). Washing machines evolved from finicky one way turn relay knobs to tactile bidirectional digital knobs with buttons for options (like extra rinses, prewash, temperature, etc) VCRs used to be so unusable they'd blink 12:00 because no one knew how to set the time. BluRay players and PVRs put everything on screen accessible via remote or mobile app. Smart door locks make it very easy to lock/unlock a door via phone or watch vs futzing with keys that can be easily lost possibly requiring a new lock. Much better for guests or families. Old dial or even digital thermostats were nearly impossible to properly schedule, modern digital thermostats use phones or websites, much easier (and also visualizes all your HVAC stats!) Smart lights let you group lights together independent of power wiring, change colors, etc Japanese in-seat toilet bidets with dashboards or remote are masterful compared to traditional bidets with faucets. Single lever faucets vs separate dial faucets for hot/cold water
      • snapcaster 2y ago
        But those are all hardware changes right? besides the smart lock? Of course changing the hardware fundamentally will require a different UI but i meant for the same device
        • parasubvert 2y ago
          They're UI changes? Like I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing, any modern UI always involves some mix of hardware (physical controls and maybe a touchscreen) and software. My point is that the design space in the UI does evolve for the better in many cases. A Nest thermostat for example which is a mix of screen, physical button and dial, is way more usable and feature rich than old school digital thermostats with buttons and monochrome LED displays.
• JadeNB 2y ago
  > home appliances like stoves and washing machines are returning to knobs It can't come a bit too soon. My oven has buttons that aren't actually raised from their surroundings, and presses are registered via some sort of presumably fancy processing that I guess sounded slick when it was being pitched, but in practice means that it's very, very difficult to be confident that a button press will do anything, especially when fingers are greasy from cooking. Oh, and sometimes whatever processor it's using gets frozen up, so I have to turn it off and back on again. But, since it's hardwired, this involves toggling a fuse. I'm sure that there are many ways that this is a better oven than the one in the many-decades-old apartment where I used to live, but I never had to re-boot that oven.
  • jsheard 2y ago
    > presumably fancy processing that I guess sounded slick I'm pretty sure that capacitive touch sensing is just cheaper than physical interfaces, it's more to do with corner cutting than being slick. All you need to create a capsense "button" is some traces on a PCB, they're essentially free if you're making a PCB anyway.
    • JadeNB 2y ago
      > I'm pretty sure that capacitive touch sensing is just cheaper than physical interfaces, it's more to do with corner cutting than being slick. All you need to create a capsense "button" is some traces on a PCB, they're essentially free if you're making a PCB anyway. That makes sense. Thanks!
  • Zanfa 2y ago
    I love how my stove’s capacitive buttons sometimes don’t register when I’m using one hand to stir with a conductive spatula while trying to turn down the temp with the other until I let go of the spatula.
  • bitwize 2y ago
    Dishwasher, same thing. Half the time it won't register a press when I need it to turn on. Yet the cat can start a cycle when he decides he wants to have a climb.
• brudgers 2y ago
  Hardware is a useful abstraction.
• rkagerer 2y ago
  Finally
• ned99 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • ianschmitz 2y ago
    You haven’t read the article, but you deemed it pointless. Nice.
• m348e912 2y ago
  One thing that would really get me to consider buying a Tesla is to add a few high quality _assignable_ knobs and controls that I could configure to control radio volume, heat, or whatever function I'd like. (within reason) Oh and real indicator stalks, that would be nice too.
  • GenerWork 2y ago
    Enhance Auto has intriguing products that may be right up your alley[0]. That being said, they're obviously aftermarket and not OEM. Last I heard they were working on aftermarket stalks, but I'm not sure where they're at on that project. [0] https://enhauto.com/knob https://enhauto.com/knob
    • amluto 2y ago
      They lost me at: > The S3XY Knob comes with a Gen2 Commander, which adds unique automation to your Tesla, such as automatically restarting your Autopilot after a lane change and turning off the wipers during AP drives. [emphasis added] At what point should a company that builds products like that be liable for the damages they encourage? For that matter, reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter are crimes in many jurisdictions.
      • nerdponx 2y ago
        > For that matter, reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter are crimes in many jurisdictions. Yeah but good luck actually getting someone charged and convicted for these when a motor vehicle is involved.
  • modeless 2y ago
    There are some third party buttons like that: https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+buttons https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+buttons
  • hinkley 2y ago
    [flagged]
• RobotToaster 2y ago
  Tom Paris was right.
• lwn 2y ago
  As a synthesizer enthusiast, I'm excited to read about this. A well-designed button layout on a synth sparks my creativity. Tweaking knobs on a touchscreen doesn’t work for me because I constantly have to check the screen to make sure my fingers are on the right control.
  • TheRealPomax 2y ago
    A poorly designed synth doesn't generally cause a car accident though, far less of a legislative impetus to stop softwaring everything in synth-land =)
    • wigster 2y ago
      i'd argue the interface on the old yamaha dx synths with FM synthesis was a bit of a car crash I certainly never got my brain round them. ;-)
      • JodieBenitez 2y ago
        Going full OT here but... Yamaha's DX synths had major impact on music. And there are lots of great FM synths nowadays with excellent interfaces. See https://www.twistedelectrons.com/twistfm https://www.twistedelectrons.com/twistfm and https://elektron.se/explore/digitone-ii https://elektron.se/explore/digitone-ii
  • motohagiography 2y ago
    the obvious consequence of electric vehicles is live configurable filters and patches for performance tuning. I want an ADSR for my accelerator in different modes. give me an EQ for acceleration and braking, along with a feedback cycle for cruising, and the era of performance personalization will be huge. I would buy a tesla instantly if you gave me a eurorack dashboard insert! eurorack module designers have moved hardware interface design to where they can create intuitive design languages as well.
    • Nition 2y ago
• Dwedit 2y ago
  The worst of both worlds is Touch Buttons. No screen, just a touch-sensitive surface that's divided into areas that activate upon any kind of skin contact, whether intentional or not. I always see my dishwasher having some bizarre setting active because of accidental contact with a touch button.
  • schmidtleonard 2y ago
    Don't forget to pair the Touch Button with a Minimalist design that gives no indication if a button has been pressed! Bonus points for a big long click buffer and strange multi-click semantics so that once the computer unfreezes your attempts at diagnostics are redirected into messing up the state in weird and wonderful ways that you will have to unpack over the next week.
    • K0balt 2y ago
      Don’t forget the Uber-minimalist aesthetic, where there are no markings or textures to designate the touch regions, but instead you just touch or swipe different parts of the object for different functionality. That’s my favourite, especially after you haven’t used something for a few months. Bonus points if a firmware update changes the invisible control layout.
      • schmidtleonard 2y ago
        Hell yeah! Let's change the active region to the upper left corner of the hamburger symbol and make sure that the hieroglyph itself doesn't reflect this in any way. Dear Satan, I believe now would be a good time to discuss the subject of a raise!
      • glenneroo 2y ago
        Samsung used to do this for some of their cheaper monitors. I remember I bought a couple of them for one of my early dual-screen setups (15+ years ago) and every day I would slowly and gently run my finger along the entire length of the monitor until it would power on. It had to be slow otherwise there was a chance I would power it off again going back the other direction. Even more fun because after turning it on, I would slide past some other button, unintentionally opening some menu and changing some random settings (most commonly changing the input from DVI to something else). If I was lucky, I would power it off after changing something and wonder why it wasn't powering on again (note: it was powered on, but set to the wrong input). How that monitor got past Q&A I will never understand. IIRC the buttons had tiny, nearly invisible (light grey on black) icon labels... I used to keep a flashlight on my table so I could figure out which invisible button to press to get things working again.
• josefrichter 2y ago
  Interestingly, almost all designers know that touch screens in cars are bad idea. They always knew it. Bit for some reason, the designers in automotive industry were the only ones who didn’t know. It’s a mystery.
  • seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Cost. They put them in to save money. It’s not a mystery at all. Plumbing wires for a bunch of analog switches is more expensive than one databus, and then there is the simplicity of turning your hardware problem into a software one.
    • jsd1982 2y ago
      A touchscreen with an entire software engineering department behind its software is cheaper than buttons?
      • lomase 2y ago
        The hardware buttons need a system, microcontroller with software or whatever, to manage its state just like the screen.
      • MostlyStable 2y ago
        Evidence suggests that their engineering teams are either not that big or not that good given how garbage most vehicle UI/software is, and it's a price you pay (mostly) once per touchscreen software design, which will span several models, where as the component + install cost needs to be paid for every vehicle in perpetuity.
        • daniel_reetz 2y ago
          It's a little deeper than this, software for each module is typically provided by a tier 1 or tier 2 supplier according to a spec provided by the OEM. Sometimes the tier 1 or tier 2 supplier is also subbing out the software or stuck with some system on chip that sucks. So for a made-up example, GM wants to build a smart dash in the latest SUV, maybe Bosch or Continental has one with a SoC inside and their own software hell. OEM works with supplier to integrate, bugfix, skin, and customize. But they don't write it from scratch.
• doublerabbit 2y ago
  Now if only add physical keyboards yo phones again...
• mlhpdx 2y ago
  Physical buttons don’t require an ad blocker.
• gigatexal 2y ago
  Yes I do prefer analog controls. Dials for heat. Open close flaps for vents. On off switches. Tangentially: the Tesla single giant glass console is in dire need of a UX designer to take the clutter out and make it far more usable. It’s here I wish that Apple had bought Tesla many many years ago: CarPlay as they have it now where it takes over the whole screen would have been amazing.
  • m463 2y ago
    > Apple had bought Tesla lol. I think tesla was copying apple, relentlessly removing without knowing when to stop. Apple has lost its way too in this respect.
    • samatman 2y ago
      I know right? Adding two buttons to the iPhone, an HDMI port and SD slot to the MBP, putting the function key buttons back, when will it end?!
      • m463 2y ago
        I have to give credit there, those were actually good moves. lightning too. But I'm still not back in the fold. (and Tesla actually relented twice on the s/x - yoke horn button, plus added back a round steering wheel option)
  • bhauer 2y ago
    > Yes I do prefer analog controls. Dials for heat. Open close flaps for vents. On off switches. Dials and switches can be fully digital (e.g., dials can be free-spinning, without locks at each end of a setting). So preferring dials and switches seems reasonable. But flaps for vents are very difficult to automate. Returning to manual flaps in cars would mean losing modern cars' ability to associate and restore HVAC vent preferences with driver profiles. It would mean returning to the time when it was actually necessary to adjust the HVAC vents every time you swapped drivers. While setting vent preferences on the screen may take a second or two longer than manually setting them, thanks to the setting being associated with my driver profile, it's a set-once-and-forget-forever setting. The net time and annoyance savings is large.
• TonyTrapp 2y ago
  Just in time. Yesterday I had to use a touchscreen-based card reader for the first time to pay for something. What a jarring interaction. Impossible to use muscle memory, so I actually had to think what my PIN was and had to look at the screen the whole time, being stressed about pressing just a bit too much to the left or the right so that the wrong digit would be entered. I very much prefer classic card terminals, thank you very much.
  • lifestyleguru 2y ago
    Did it display an ad before displaying the keyboard? Because I encountered terminals which have physical keyboard but also display an ad on the screen. No physical keyboard? A perfect captive audience.
    • TonyTrapp 2y ago
      Luckily not. It was at a restaurant, and I hope that a waiter handing you a device to enter your PIN but first having to watch an ad is never going to be a thing.
      • nerdponx 2y ago
        I expect to see it before 2034.
      • JoshTriplett 2y ago
        It's a thing. Some large chain restaurants have a tablet at the table for ordering, with games on it, and continuous ads. It's the same one used to pay.
  • walthamstow 2y ago
    I was in the Philippines last week. Not only do they have touchscreen card POS devices, they also randomise the order of the numbers. Turns out I know my PIN by the position of the numbers moreso than the numbers themselves.
    • 2y ago
• fasteddie31003 2y ago
  I'll be the contrarian and say I prefer touchscreens. To get some system into a touchscreen you need to digitize the whole system which allows you to control it through automation which creates a more versatile system. The system could be digitized and then have a physical control to change the state, but then it's not necessary at that point.
  • pdimitar 2y ago
    "Could" being the keyword here. We're not there yet. Also the touchscreens break muscle memory habits and don't give any feedback. These things are actually extremely important f.ex. in a car.
  • TomK32 2y ago
    There's a interesting middle ground, programmable button that is also a rotary button that gives feedback, the KeWheel by KEBA. I'm sure that are similar solutions from other manufacturers.
  • jajko 2y ago
    You probably meant other industry but this is a terrible mindset for cars for example. Touchscreens are so terrible premium manufacturers ignored them for a long time since its obvious downgrade in comfort and safety, yet people kept buying teslas despite this, even bragging how cool some cheap ipad is.
  • vel0city 2y ago
    I'm pretty pro touchscreen to a point. Any driving critical control should be physical. Lights, turn signals, horn, steering wheel controls, etc. Physical controls with physical feedback. Everything the driver should mess with should be either on the wheel or immediately around it and should be physical. Other than that, I really don't care. When I'm punching in the address on the navigation system, give me a massive screen. When I'm stopped and trying to look up something in my media collection, give me a massive touchscreen. When I'm trying to quickly glance at the map, make it a giant screen so I can see it all quickly. Or better yet a HUD or have it on the instrument cluster.
  • 2y ago
• praptak 2y ago
  Touchscreens are anti-accessibility. Lack of tactile feedback for the sight-impaired is the obvious part but there is another thing: Touchscreens just stop registering your touch when you get old. The older you get the less moisture there's in your skin, which at some point makes touch screens ignore you. https://www.gabefender.com/writing/touch-screens-dont-work-for-everyone https://www.gabefender.com/writing/touch-screens-dont-work-f...
  • phrenq 2y ago
    At a former company, we were all issued YubiKey Nanos, which just never worked for me. None of my coworkers had a problem, but I couldn’t get the damn thing to register a touch no matter what I did, including swapping keys. Eventually I came across a thread on an internal list for employees over forty, with several other people who were all having the same problem. The solution? Lick your finger. Gross, but it did the trick. And I’m stuck licking my finger every time I need to make a YubiKey work.
    • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
      I wonder if that explains the stereotype of old people licking their fingers to turn pages
      • phrenq 2y ago
        That’s funny, I hadn’t thought of that. It very well might be true that turning pages is easier for people with more moisture in their skin.
        • arccy 2y ago
          so books are not accessible: kindles are better
          • kibwen 2y ago
            I'm unclear if this was intended to be sarcastic, but it's certainly possible for e-readers to be more accessible than books, at least for models that actually have physical buttons (and especially considering that e-readers can have zoomable text).
• jstummbillig 2y ago
  Let it be known that (good) designers are fully aware of how bad touchscreens are, with regards to UX and many other things. It's just that touchscreens have been the least bad option, when you really need/want (always arguable, of course) to iterate a lot on the software, that is inside an expensive and not cheaply/easily modifiable piece of hardware.
• Gasp0de 2y ago
  No one can ever have believed that touchscreens are a good method of operating anything without looking at it.
• m3kw9 2y ago
  For cars
• surgical_fire 2y ago
  I wish this was true for cellphones as well.
  • add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
    My Treo with a physical keyboard was the last mobile device I had that typing wasn't a chore with. Touch screen primacy has turned mobile devices from content creation to content consumption devices.
  • Reason077 2y ago
    If physical keys were the way to go in smartphones, we’d all still be using BlackBerrys. If it’s a dumbphone you want, there’s plenty of models available with physical keys.
    • averageRoyalty 2y ago
      > If physical keys were the way to go in smartphones, we’d all still be using BlackBerrys. That would be the dream, yes.
    • surgical_fire 2y ago
      I actually liked BlackBerry quite a lot. Was a bit sad that the touchscreen model became ubiquitous.
  • frde_me 2y ago
    I disagree with this. The touchscreen on my phone allows for so much versatile applications than is possible with physical buttons. I really don't miss the days where applications had to retrofit their controls onto a fixed physical setting. Sure, maybe for dialling a phone number or texting it was better. But for everything else I do on a phone, give me a touchscreen.
• kemiller 2y ago
  There’s a pre/trans fallacy at work in here. We are not returning to the buttons we had before, we are recreating the role of physical buttons in a world where the long tail of controls has somewhere to go. And I’m all for it.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • speakspokespok 2y ago
    Please expand on this. You're saying the analog functionality behind a button, like an analog volume control is no longer a pontiometer, but rather a tactile UI element?
• wslh 2y ago
  My first reaction after buying my Garmin watch was to disable the touchscreen since it already has buttons. For tracking different sports, the touchscreen adds a potential risk of accidental touches, which could affect measurements and performance. Plus, I'm not certain, but it may consume more battery. I chose this watch for its impressive battery life (including solar charging), so minimizing unnecessary battery use is important to me. On the other hand, I find it unnatural to have physical buttons on a tablet. My brain takes a moment to adjust to the fact that the volume up and volume down buttons on the iPad reverse their behavior based on the device’s orientation. I would also prefer if fingerprint detection on the iPad were integrated into the display, as seen in some Samsung phones.
• James_K 2y ago
  These stupid touchscreen controls are one of the main things that convinced me modern designers simply don't both testing and using the products they produce. If you take a touchscreen stove top and use it for more than about 5 minutes, you quickly find yourself wishing for the knobs back.
• dbg31415 2y ago
  Quick, get me my BlackBerry!
• _yb2s 2y ago
  I’m into classic European cars and am horrified by the people replacing high end vintage german head units that integrate with the rest of the car, e.g. speed sensitive volume for shitty alibaba touch screens.
• ktosobcy 2y ago
  Finally!
• helf 2y ago
  [dead]
• 2099miles 2y ago
  Especially in cars, especially in simple controls, touch screens are great for low screen real estate but cars are one of the dumbest places for them since there is so much real estate and so little need for a screen
  • dredmorbius 2y ago
    Screens have been mandatory in new US automobiles since 2018, due to regulations requiring a back-up camera: "All new cars in US now required to have backup cameras" (2018) <https://abcnews.go.com/US/cars-us-now-required-backup-cameras/story?id=54854404 https://abcnews.go.com/US/cars-us-now-required-backup-camera...> I can appreciate the safety rationale. I hate what this does to automobile interiors / controls, and suspect that the distraction / confusion factor may very well outweigh any possible life/injury savings due to the cameras in the first place. The alternative of incorporating the BUC display into the rear-view mirror, perhaps in addition to obstacle warnings, might be an alternative. Absent that, a fold-down ceiling-mounted display would be my next preference. Anything to avoid having a persistent screen on the dash. Mazda were apparently offering a heads-up display (HUD) as of 2019: <https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...> (As noted elsewhere in thread by slipmagic: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42037412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42037412>.)
• elwebmaster 2y ago
  Touchscreens in cars should have been illegal to begin with it. How can it be that operating a cellphone is not allowed but operating a “tablet” is a necessity?
  • vel0city 2y ago
    I'm not playing Call of Duty mobile or watching YouTube on the screen on my head unit. I'm not scrolling TikTik or having a text message conversation on a head unit screen. If you think it's the same thing, you haven't actually driven a car with a screen before.
  • electriclove 2y ago
    No, it shouldn’t be illegal. If it is inferior, they will lose sales and money.
    • twobitshifter 2y ago
      It’s naive to think that cost cutting is leading to lost sales. People may in fact buy the inferior car because it’s more affordable and then end up driving something dangerous.
    • runeb 2y ago
      I believe their comment was about safety, not usability
    • dredmorbius 2y ago
      The automobile industry is one of the canonical examples of the market failing to deliver safety or efficiency until compelled to do so. Ralph Nader in 1967, 57 years ago, interviewed by Studs Terkel: <https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/ralph-nader-discusses-his-book-unsafe-any-speed https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/ralph-nader-discusses-...> Direct audio: <https://s3.amazonaws.com/wfmt-studs-terkel/published/11364.mp3 https://s3.amazonaws.com/wfmt-studs-terkel/published/11364.m...> (MP3) (The segment is excellent, and whilst in many ways a historical document also strongly informs the recent past, immediate present, and I strongly suspect the future.)
• HerbMcM 2y ago
  Once upon a time I used Android Auto and things were good. Most controls were in the corners, you see, which allowed me to perform a couple of changes without looking at the touchscreen. One day, a GUI designer decided to put a horizontal bar going through the top of the display just to display a very tiny clock on the top right corner. The top left corner I used to bring up the menu and quickly select options no longer worked reliably as it was under that horizontal strip. I stopped using Android Auto after a couple of months.
  • andybak 2y ago
    This was one of the first lessons I learned about good UX design and was the canonical example when discussing what Mac OS classic did right and Windows did wrong. I think it was Norman Nielson thing or one of those old school gurus. How are people allowed to work on UIs without learning the core syllabus? The basics of their trade? I grew up on this stuff and I'm not even a UX specialist or a UI designer. Or are they getting overridden by bad product managers and other shitty stakeholders?
    • internet101010 2y ago
      They are being overridden by people trying to justify their jobs by changing things for the sake of changing things.
    • syncsynchalt 2y ago
      See also Fitt's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law) and with regards to Apple OS design, Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Tognazzini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Tognazzini), now at Norman Nielson Group.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • amatecha 2y ago
      Right? When I worked in the office I kept a copy of Apple's Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines on my desk. It's amazing how "solved" a ton of that kind of stuff was, 30+ years ago. If you design software / UI and don't know the history of HCI and its top players, well…
• willmadden 2y ago
  Good!
• voytec 2y ago
  I need to dry my hands before clicking "no longer exercising" on my Apple Watch after swimming. It adds my steps through the beach to the towel as the distance swum but allows using the physical crown/button to eject water...
• scotty79 2y ago
  I think touchscreens could be fine, even in cars if they limited inputs to broad swipes. As for visuals it should rely on simple colors to encode functionality and provide feedback during operation. The problem is feature creep where they want user to have so many functions that they have no choice but to use buttons and detailed graphics. I think if the smallest buttons they used occupied at least quarter of the screen and if screen would have corners that you can physically grab onto when you are pressing they could be mostly fine-ish. UX designers that design console experiences for visually impaired people would be the best people to create UI for cars. Although still not perfect.
• __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  While we're at it, let's come up with a tactile way to connect wireless things. I'm so tired of hunting down all of my devices and disabling Bluetooth just so that when I turn on my headphones they connect to the appropriate device. I'd love to just touch the two things together and hear a beep to know they're paired.
  • Eavolution 2y ago
    That's actually how my headphones (sony 1000xm3 I think they are) can be paired, there's an nfc chip on one of the sides which if you tap your phone to will turn on bluetooth, turn on the headphones, connect, and the headphones will beep and say bluetooth connected. It's the most seamless wireless connection I've had with bluetooth
    • __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      Sounds awesome, now we just need to get NFC boopers on everything that has a speaker.
• mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
  Oh Thank God.
• Apocryphon 2y ago
  Could a pullback from flat design and a revival of skeuomorphism be far behind?
• AlienRobot 2y ago
  >Plotnick is [...] the leading expert on buttons and how people interact with them. Something must be wrong with me. This sentence would sound so lame to the average person and yet it sounds fascinating to me. I wish I had the title of "the leading expert on buttons." I really LOVE how the WHOLE article is about BUTTONS BUTTONS BUTTONS. It really clears any doubt about her expertise. It's not an exaggeration. It's an actual leading expert on buttons! >The blind community had to fight for years to make touchscreens more accessible. It’s always been funny to me that we call them touchscreens. We think about them as a touch modality, but a touchscreen prioritizes the visual. Really interesting observation. In order to press virtual buttons, you have to look at the screen to figure out whether the button is (unless it's a full-width button at the bottom). Physical buttons generally don't require this in order to be pushed. They may still require this if the action the button performs depends on a state that is indicated by a screen, e.g. a menu where you have directional buttons to change the selected item.
• dfxm12 2y ago
  I've got a new car. I got the giant touchscreen because the model with the advanced safety features only came with the touchscreen. However, thanks to all the buttons on the steering wheel (which are the same on all models), I have to touch the screen approximately zero times while driving. It might as well just be a display. That said, I am appreciative of people coming to their senses over this. Maybe not every car maker thought this out as much.
• anonymous344 2y ago
  these idiots does not understand that in the car your hand is moving up and down because road is uneven. Touch screen sucks in car if the car is moving
  • offices 2y ago
    Google Maps has a pair of buttons for you to confirm or deny that a hazard like a stopped vehicle is still there. But they're right next to each other. Two buttons that do the opposite from each other, irreversibly, and they're millimetres apart. Pressed while you're navigating a hazard.
• jordanmorgan10 2y ago
  I seem to be in the minority. I love the whole screen approach in my model 3. I can customize the bottom shortcuts how I like, the screen adapts to the context and things don’t feel more than 1 tap away. I’d take that over plasticy looking car buttons for the most part.
• internet101010 2y ago
  They've been back. One of the main reasons I went with the car I ended up buying was because it had buttons. And it's fast. And it has carplay. And I don't have to press the (A) button every time I turn on the car to disable the engine off at red light thing.
  • maleldil 2y ago
    > disable the engine off at red light thing. Why do you do that? I find that it barely impacts my driving experience, and it's an easy way to decrease emissions.
    • timbit42 2y ago
      Isn't it hard on the starter?
      • 39896880 2y ago
        The automatic stop-start system found in newer cars isn’t especially hard on the starter. These systems have reinforced bearings, faster engagement mechanisms, direct fuel injection or integrated starter generators, which start the engine without relying on a starter motor at all.
    • VGHN7XDuOXPAzol 2y ago
      Not the person you're asking, but I find it adds a delay to setting off and frequently feels 'wrong' because it cuts the engine for a very short time. (I don't often drive at rush hour, so often I might just stop at a light for literally 1 or 2 seconds whilst it notices I'm there and then switches over to green, or maybe I've timed it almost right to slow down gradually to the lights and only have to stop for a short time at the end.) I don't know anything but I have been wondering if it might actually be worse for emissions and engine wear for the auto to cut off only for 1 or 2 seconds each time. I can see the appeal in traffic with longer waits though?
      • maleldil 2y ago
• esskay 2y ago
  Touchscreens are perfectly fine on phones, tablets etc. But for something like a car it takes a special kind of idiot to implement a touch only way of controlling things like heating/ac, volume, etc. Even for certain audio controls it makes no sense. My (fairly old now) Toyota's touch screen is needed for switch between radio and usb (no carplay/android auto), even thats annoying to use.
  • m463 2y ago
    Tesla is the worst. why would you want to select your gear on the touchscreen? I wonder how many sales they lose on the new models because the turn signal stalks are gone? (all stalks)
    • __turbobrew__ 2y ago
      A coworker told me a story where they drove a Tesla to Tahoe Lake and it started snowing. The Tesla sensors did not pick up the snow so the windshield wipers never came on. After nearly crashing the car because they couldn’t see, they pulled over and it took them a long time to find out how to turn on the wipers through the touch UI. I hate hate hate non-analog controls in cars.
      • m463 2y ago
        I rented a model 3 from hertz a while back. First time in a model 3, and I couldn't figure out how to lock the car. I finally figured out how to lock it on the touchscreen, but then I would open the door and get out and it would unlock again. I finally figured out two ways to lock the car, but it took a bunch of web searches to get it.
        • offices 2y ago
          On one hand I've always been irritated by car reviewers complaining that a car has 'weird' controls, failing to take into account that most of us aren't driving a new car every week and will just adjust to what we use. On the other hand, some cars are destined for fleets, and all may need to be operated by a stranger in an emergency. There should be a common configuration for features related to safety and velocity.
• alejohausner 2y ago
  What I really would like to see is a car with a full command-line interface with a qwerty keyboard built into the steering wheel. Then you could type > setgear r ENTER To put the car in reverse. Of course people on hn could just abbreviate that to > r ENTER using a ksh macro! But for newbie users we could have a 3 button mouse instead. /s
  • cheesycod 2y ago
    You joke but there actually may be merit to it. Of course, you'd still need a GUI on top but you technically could put a full command-line interface with limited commands and actually sell it as a differentiating feature at this point.
    • JJMcJ 2y ago
      For a time there were automatic transmission cars with push buttons. I think it was a 1950s/60s Great Idea. If I remember you had to reach around the steering wheel to access them. Never used one but it fell out of favor.
  • dredmorbius 2y ago
    Automobiles not so much, but modern airliner cockpits have this to a limited extent, notably navigation computer.
• liendolucas 2y ago
  Finally, also note that an LCD screen is not needed at all in the driver's console. Analog indicators for speed, rpms and simple lights are just fine. What I would really really like to have on all vehicles is an error LCD screen that describes with full and clear details any type of malfunction. We're still stuck with error codes but hey we give owners all these fancy and unnecessary digital toys and when a problem araises we need to plug a scanner to decode what's going on with our vehicles.
  • squidgedcricket 2y ago
    Do any modern cars have OBD readers integrated into the infotainment system? It seems like a no brainer to show the error code w/ a description. Though that might decrease the number of dealer visits compared to a non-descriptive check engine light.
    • alexbock 2y ago
      Tesla vehicles display error descriptions prominently whenever an error code is presented, and detailed error diagnostics are available for anyone to browse in the service mode menu on the touchscreen. (Service mode is publicly accessible but does require looking up online how to open it.)
  • deergomoo 2y ago
    I actually don't mind the driver's display being a screen, because it has no controls and I don't have to interact with it besides looking at it. The most important things it displays (speed and revs) are mimicking dials anyway, but it's nice to be able to see things that most lower-cost manufacturers would never bother making a dial or numeric display for (primarily economy and remaining range, for me).
  • shrx 2y ago
    I don't understand why I get a warning that tire pressure is low but no indication which tire is problematic.
    • 2y ago
• spintin 2y ago
  [dead]
• EMCymatics 2y ago
  I can't believe they didn't get immediately cancelled after they put a hole in a navy destroyer.
• teatro 2y ago
  Oof, I’m about to buy our new family car which has not a single knob anywhere, they all were replaced by those sensitive switches and sliders.
  • gaudystead 2y ago
    Consider looking at Mazda. They all seem to retain physical controls in addition to (optional) touch controls. Probably other brands out there too though.
• m463 2y ago
  I kind of wonder if touchscreens and apps are a way of firing customers. Get compliant customers that won't complain and will rent autopilot or buy range upgrades their cars already had the hardware for.
  • MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
    I think it's mostly cost-cutting, but also a prompt for both designers and customers to expect less interaction. It fits in with the push for automation. For cost cutting it might be going according to plan: Tesla is making a good profit on their cars. The success of their automation efforts remains to be seen.
  • valval 2y ago
    Yes — in a world of sheep, you’re the wolf.
• mmooss 2y ago
  > if we look at the 1800s, people were sending messages via telegraph about what the future would look like if we all had this dashboard of buttons at our command where we could communicate with anyone and shop for anything. I've read a bunch of history of computers and related technology, and I've never seen that. Where can I find it? (I don't doubt it; I want to read it!) It shouldn't surprise me: The telegraph made immediate, cost-effective wide-area communication possible, and of course people then weren't idiots (or we're not so smart) - some of them imagined future development and applications.
• electriclove 2y ago
  The touchscreen in Tesla cars is amazing. And there are a few tactile controls on the steering wheel.
• patrickhogan1 2y ago
  The Sony WH-1000XM5 (newest version) headphones have both touch and voice controls, but they can be frustrating to use. The touch controls are meant to be easy, but they’re often too sensitive or don’t respond well. For instance, a small accidental swipe can pause or skip a song, which interrupts my music. The voice feature, "Speak-to-Chat," stops the music if it hears you talking or even singing along, which can be annoying. I usually turn off these controls because they’re more hassle than help—it’s actually easier to adjust the volume on my iPhone when I’m on a run. These controls are 10x worse than the much older versions that had volume and pause buttons on the headphones.
  • averageRoyalty 2y ago
    > These controls are 10x worse than the much older versions that had volume and pause buttons on the headphones. I have the WH-1000XM2s and they do not have volume or pause buttons. Double tap to pause, slide up and down for volume. I can't comment on them compared to yours, but the touch element works extremely well on them.
  • dalmo3 2y ago
    I had to disable touch control on mine (gen 4) as it would detect touches from the pillow I was resting my head on. The most annoying part is there are some buttons already on the phones for connectivity so the could have added more for basic functions.
  • bitsandboots 2y ago
    Tangents: * Sony's naming scheme sucks. I will never remember the product names and the name difference between the headphones and earbuds * the WM earbuds also have a bonus feature where there really isnt any way to turn them off other than to put them in the case, so they go through battery-destroying 80-100% charge cycles and last like 1-2 years before the batteries are at half capacity.
    • vel0city 2y ago
      WH == Wireless Headphones.
• pigbearpig 2y ago
  This vid talks about how the MD-80 has different types of switches for different functions. Not sure if intentional, but the ability to know if you have the wrong switch by feel seems like a great benefit. https://youtu.be/7R0CViDUBFs?t=429 https://youtu.be/7R0CViDUBFs?t=429 Moment I question is at 7:09, but whole vid is quite interesting.
• gwbas1c 2y ago
  Tesla, for all the flack it gets for removing buttons, "almost" has enough buttons. It's fine to bury options / settings that you don't touch often, or ever, under a menu. When driving, the steering wheel controls to change the audio / autopilot speed are "good enough." What's missing? I should be able to adjust the wiper speed with a dial on the stalk. (The automatic wipers are lousy, and if there was a dial on the stalk, I really wouldn't care.) I should be able to adjust the heated seat with a dial, and maybe adjust the climate control temperature with a dial. That's it. Just a few more buttons.
  • Schiendelman 2y ago
    You can adjust the wiper speed with the left wheel after tapping the wiper button.
    • gwbas1c 2y ago
      I hate that, because often when I go to adjust the volume it changes the wiper speed. Buttons shouldn't have context when you aren't looking at them.
• balls187 2y ago
  Worst aspect of the 2023 vw id4 is the capacitive touch controls. I like the swipe to raise volume and temp, but the mirror and window controls are atrocious. Side note: having window lock and child safety lock be a single control is a huge miss.
  • macqm 2y ago
    And their remote key.
    • balls187 2y ago
      Sadly I accidentally hit the alarm button several times a week.
• nenadg 2y ago
  Finally.
• carabiner 2y ago
  Love my 2015 Tacoma.
• thrownaway561 2y ago
  with buttons, you can close your eyes and navigate the "map" of the device. I know that the top button of my tv remote is the power and the cross in the middle is for navigating the directional of the on screen display of the tv. I can find the middle button of the remote and 2 middle buttons down from the cross is the play/pause button. You can't do this with a touch screen. There is no indication of surface or depth of feedback. True that you can have a "bump" feedback, but that is for basically ever "button" on the touchscreen so they all feel the same. There is nothing to distinguish one button "area" from the other on a touchscreen. Now this isn't a big deal if you can look at the control, but what about blind people, trying to navigate in the dark or even worst... while driving??? Touchscreens have their place but they don't need to replace everything.
• Animats 2y ago
  The article is mostly about buttons. Buttons with a screen you have to look at are no better than a touchscreen. For cars, everything important should be do-able without looking. At least until Waymo's technology filters down to most cars.
• numerative 2y ago
  I nearly crashed my car into the divider because I had to look away to adjust the car AC which has touch buttons instead of tactile. As for my car, that's the only touch interface; all else is old school tactile button and knobs. I am starting to wonder how drivers of the modern teslas and similar feel about all touch interface in their cars.
  • stargrazer 2y ago
    Probably why Tesla's have auto-drive. Car has to drive it self while you focus your attention on the screen to decode how it works.
• m12k 2y ago
  I'm glad the pendulum is swinging back with this one. With UI paradigms, we seem to have this tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater, or be so intrigued with the possible new benefits we can get (buttons can change according to context!) that we forget what current benefits we would give up to get them (learnability and muscle-memory because the button always does the same thing, being able to feel your way to a button without looking at it) It reminds me of what happened with the flat UI/anti-skeuomorphism wave a bit over a decade ago. It seemed like someone got so incensed by the faux leather in the iPhone's Find My Friends app (supposedly made to look like it had the same stitching as the leather upholstery in Steve Jobs' private jet) that they went on a crusade against anything "needlessly physical looking" in UI. We got the Metro design language from Microsoft as the fullest expression of it, with Apple somewhat following suit in iOS (but later walking back some things too) and later Google's Material Design walking it back a bit further (drop shadows making a big comeback). But for a while there, it was genuinely hard to tell which bit of text was a label and which was a button, because it was all just bits of black or monocolor text floating on a flat white background. It's like whoever came up with the flat UI fad didn't realize how much hierarchy and structure was being conveyed by the lines, shadows and gradients that had suddenly gone out of vogue. All of a sudden we needed a ton of whitespace between elements to understand which worked together and which were unrelated. Which is ironic, because the whole thing started as a crusade against designers putting their own desire for artistic expression above their users' needs by wasting UI space on showing off their artistic skill with useless ornaments, but it led to designers putting their own philosophical purity above their users' needs, by wasting UI space on unnecessary whitespace and forcing low information density on everyone.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • dmix 2y ago
    Plenty of UI designers just follow trends because everyone just copies the current popular things, especially when their competition starts doing it too. They don't really put a ton of thought into it or don't do it as part of a wider cohesive strategy where it makes sense for what they are building. Really shows the power of UI designers at big organizations like Apple, Google, and Tesla.
• WalterBright 2y ago
  I remember the EE Doc Smith Lensman series, when the characters "pressed a stud" rather than "pushed a button". "Every firing officer in every Patrol ship touched his stud in the same split second." -- First Lensman "before a firing-stud could be pressed, the enemy craft almost disappeared again", "The Boskonian touched a stud and spoke." -- Gray Lensman
  • dredmorbius 2y ago
    Electro-mechanical relays were the emerging (and novel) standard at the time, if not direct physical linkages. I once had the opportunity to tour a US railroad switch tower, likely dating to the 1930s if not before. As with much other industrial architecture, something most people may not realise is the extent to which the form of the structure is dictated by not only human requirements (elevated position to have an overview of the yard) but the technical mechanism itself. The upper portion of the tower is dominated not only by the observation windows, but by a vast number of physical rods which control individual sets of points (track switches). The levers don't move the rails directly, but they do directly move the electro-mechanical activators in the tower base, from which rods or cables (I believe it's rods, I'm not positive however) make a continuous physical connection to each controlled set of points. That is, there is not a separate actuator at the points themselves. (More modern switching systems, or even other older ones, may well have this. The tower I observed most certainly did not.) I've also had an interest for some years in how the artefacts of control influence the language of control. We speak of the reins or levers of power in most European languages, reflecting older sources or projections of power; modern terms seem to have been slower to be adopted though some ("dynamo" and "engine") are extant. I've long suspected that the Chinese, with a millennia-long history of hydrologic civil engineering projects might have a language of power which borrows from water control structures (dams, gates, levees, bridges, etc.). Some time afterward I realised that Latin certainly does, and retains at least one descriptor in pontifex maximus, that is, "bridge builder in chief*, first applied to Rome's emperors, now its Pope. And I've very recently learnt that Vietnamese language and culture have many words with shared roots in water, including the word for "mother".
• WalterBright 2y ago
  I'm waiting for people to realize that icons are a horrible step backwards from language. I defy anyone to come up with an icon that is better than "PRINT".
  • xxs 2y ago
    I do prefer all the icons to have text. Yet, localizing 'print', etc. is no easy feat.
    • WalterBright 2y ago
      > Yet, localizing 'print', etc. is no easy feat True, but consider that "print" is just as easy to memorize its purpose as a squiggle. I've lived in foreign countries, and traveled in countries where I don't speak the language at all. It doesn't take much to figure out what the words for "entry", "exit", "toilet", etc., mean. And besides, English is the most international language in the world. Even if one doesn't know what "print" means, it's easy enough to look it up online or in a pocket dictionary. Keep in mind that there's no way to look up an icon.
      • xxs 2y ago
        >And besides, English is the most international language in the world Yeah, it is - but it doesn't make it right. Say you have a Cyrillic (not only Russia uses it) interface with non-Cyrillic wording. It feels your country is a 2nd hand one (which is likely true but that's not the point). Again the easy to memorize part comes from the fact the native alphabet is Roman based. I speak there languages but in some places I'd not figure "exit". Again, I do prefer text labels/buttons - it's just something that doesn't translate well/universally.
• BobbyTables2 2y ago
  About damn time!
• sharkweek 2y ago
  I drive a 2000 4Runner. You know what I love? Physical controls for heat/radio/shifting etc. It feels precise and tactile. My wife refuses to drive it, she much prefers the modern luxuries in cars, but there is something so satisfying about FEELING the interaction with a control.
  • dredmorbius 2y ago
    I've an aughts vehicle myself, and yes, the lack of screens is one reason I plan to hang on to that as long as possible.
  • Brian_K_White 2y ago
    I dread the day my '97 4runner rusts just too much to ignore. They don't hold up to NJ well. I can afford anything and I hate everything current. Considering paying new trd pro price for whatever lovingly maintained 3rd gen I can find from the south or midwest. People have them, but they also love them and keep them. And a manual trans with 4wd is just even rarer. Maybe it will be worth actually buying just any version with a good frame and paying to have everything transplanted over. I can't stand automatic. Or maybe go the other direction and hope that new Scout isn't just a fantasy. Even with the physical controls and generator, I hate that it will surely be fully computer operated and all by software I can't access or control at all. It will surely be nice physical controls and a pile of annoying wrong behaviors you can't fix.
    • lightedman 2y ago
      Have a shop professionally de-rust and ceramic-coat your frame and body. It'll last decades.
  • vel0city 2y ago
    I'd prefer to just have a modern car with a decent auto-climate system and never have to mess with it at all.
• sfmz 2y ago
  I also welcome the return of physical media (incl. videogames); manually pushing in the cart/cartridge is a form of tactile control. That and a wired controller so I don't need to manage batteries and bluetooth when my nephews want to play videogames.
• speakspokespok 2y ago
  Somewhat tangential to the topic but the picture at the top there, of the center console, how is the lettering applied? Is that a silk screening process of some kind that I can duplicate? Asking because I want to duplicate the look of an OEM vehicle setup for a personal project. "Guy Who Stares at Vehicle Buttons"
• NotYourLawyer 2y ago
  I think I speak for literally every car owner when I say “about damn time.”
• OnlyMortal 2y ago
  In a car they’re a distraction from driving. You have to look at the iPad stuck to the dash and not on the road - where the driver’s focus must be. With knobs and buttons, you can feel for them whilst still having your vision in the road. This must make it safer to drive. As a MX5 (ND) driver, even having a knob to scroll around the screen is a poor design choice. Touch would have been better (you can hack that) whilst driving but, frankly, this kind of car shouldn’t have a screen at all. It’s a driving car, not a home entertainment system.
• jbverschoor 2y ago
  Very happy with my Braun BC21B alarm clock
• AzzyHN 2y ago
  Give me a big screen for music info, maps, settings, that kind of stuff. Give me buttons for everything else.
  • dredmorbius 2y ago
    Export all of that to a separate device which can be updated and/or replaced with time. A friend was considering various auto options in the mid-aughts and described to me their realisation that the "navigation package" (a US$1500 option) would be an obsolete-on-delivery system that would only get worse with time. Its functionality has been provided by a series of ever-improving smartphones and tablets, not to mention published paper maps and highway atlases, which have excellent resolution, response, high- and low-light readability, and are utterly immune to networking glitches or WiFi deserts. Music and/or podcasts can be delivered from your tablet or smartphone. Over local FM broadcast if no other options exist (and that's far less glitchy and frustrating than Bluetooth IME).
• everdimension 2y ago
  Title sounds like a dream, but I don't really see it happening yet. I honestly think you have to be retarded to put a touchscreen into a car. But they don't seem to be making less of those
• chikere232 2y ago
  Finally!
• zzo38computer 2y ago
  I dislike touch screen; physical keyboards and controls are better, in my opinion. So, it is good that they are doing these things, in cars and in other devices. There is the consideration of what buttons to have. I think that for many kind of devices, numeric keypads will be useful. This can include the time and power of microwaves, frequency of radios, telephone numbers, date/time to schedule something, numbered menu items, etc. Stuff such as CD and DVD players and VCRs might also have controls such as play, pause, stop, rewind, fast-forward, record, previous-track, next-track, etc. Anything with audio will also have high volume, low volume, and mute (use a dial might be used to control volume instead, on some devices). Additionally, a remote control should not be required. The controls should be directly on the device itself, although remote controls (e.g. with IR) might also be available.
• karmakaze 2y ago
  They aren't mutually exclusive. Sometimes it's easier to pinch to zoom/rotate, other times it's easier to adjust volume with a physical knob/buttons without looking. It's either marketing 'something different' or cost cutting that leads to these exaggerated non-optimal fads.
• dzhiurgis 2y ago
  I’m fine with my Tesla touchscreen. It’s well designed and works better than Toyota or Nissans nightmare button layout. There’s tons of third party buttons you can add. They don’t seem to be super popular.
• asdefghyk 2y ago
  Maybe companies / product designers started listening to what customers actually wanted.
• ProAm 2y ago
  Touchscreens were never in...
• joeevans1000 2y ago
  Thank god.
• flashman 2y ago
  Douglas Adams was satirizing touch interfaces and technological progress 45 years ago: > A loud clatter of gunk music flooded through the Heart of Gold cabin as Zaphod searched the sub-etha radio wave bands for news of himself. The machine was rather difficult to operate. For years radios had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the controls were made touch-sensitive—you merely had to brush the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave your hand in the general direction of the components and hope. It saved a lot of muscular expenditure, of course, but meant that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep listening to the same program.
  • lstamour 2y ago
    Hot take: that sounds more like a critique of modern AI assistants. My Google Assistant used to be predictable. Progress isn't always progress.
• slipmagic 2y ago
  First saw a thread on this but for Mazda in 2019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335 It could be the wrong thread
• immibis 2y ago
  Are we finally going to get Androids with D-pads again? Those were pretty useful.
• rsynnott 2y ago
  > Plotnick, an associate professor of Cinema and Media Studies at Indiana University in Bloomington, is the leading expert on buttons and how people interact with them. The second-best button expert is currently infuriated at missing out on their time to shine, presumably. (I’m fascinated by what their metric is, here. Like, most-cited or something? She has, indeed, written a good few papers about buttons. Or just the one that everyone in the field says is the top button authority?)
• ajdude 2y ago
  My 2017 Mazda 6 is in almost perfect condition except for one problem: the touch screen has an issue with "phantom taps". Every time I stop the car, it either tries changing the radio station, making phone calls, etc, it's terrible
• artursapek 2y ago
  One of the best things about 4runners is they never got rid of the oversized knobs and buttons :D
• markman 2y ago
  Well I'm glad. I remember when ipods had no power button. I distinctly remember saying, "This is not good. Soon there won't be any buttons. Thanks Steve Jobs." Boy was I right. The best phone ever was the G1 with the little roller ball and slide out keyboard. So tactile is back. Now if we could just get back the removable battery and expandable memory.
• albert_e 2y ago
  One of my favoirite projects in this space: SmartKnob - Haptic input knob with software-defined endstops and virtual detents https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37448659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37448659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30646886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30646886 I am really hoping this and similar projects take off and find mass success -- and tactile controls become more widely deployed across all devices for human-input.
  • pwrstick 2y ago
    Very cool knob. I would love to interact with this type of feedback (where it makes sense). Funnily enough I recall using something less cool looking in a BMW 5 series from almost 20 years ago. The knob would stop rotating at the end of menu lists on screen when you could scroll no further. It made sense, but I recall it being so novel that I spent more time trying to make it NOT move than actually just using the menu system. BMW stopped using it for some reason.
• Suppafly 2y ago
  Yes please.
• surfingdino 2y ago
  I find touchscreens in cars inconvenient and confusing. They increase my anxiety and add to the sensory load during driving. How did car manufacturers get away with equipping cars with devices that make you take your eyes off the road while using a phone while driving is banned is a mystery to me.
• pif 2y ago
  The elephant in the room is that a touchscreen wants all your attention, especially visual attention, while physical buttons let you operate them while keeping your eyes on the road.
• tsukurimashou 2y ago
  touchscreens are cancer and I can't believe we had to put up with this shit for so long
• eporomaa 2y ago
  Whoever thought touch on a stove is a good idea needs to destroy their internal design framework.
  • lynguist 2y ago
    Touch on a stove makes any stove I know gastritic. A drip of water and it turns on power mode by itself and melts lids. A bit of oil and it randomly turns on itself. A piece of wet cloth and it does the same. Sometimes even nothing at all triggers it.
• tonymet 2y ago
  another factor is status. initially touchscreens were an exclusive option. Nowadays they are common and found on less expensive cars. only elite luxury cars stand out with copious tactile controls. People will always pursue status indicators like a peacock's tail.
• juliangmp 2y ago
  oh thank god Touch screen controls in a car were a terrible idea from the start
• Netcob 2y ago
  Yes please. I am currently driving a pre-touchscreen car and I hope I can just skip that era entirely. Touchscreens are a menace. The most dangerous moments I have in my car are when I'm trying to skip the ads in my podcasts. Which got way worse since google removed default media buttons from maps. I bet that decision has an actual body count.
• wwwlouishinofun 2y ago
  However, the problem is that touch is not optimized to perfection For example, I want to have the function of quickly opening an application by swiping up with four fingers on my iPhone. There is no killer optimization solution like bettertouchtool on iPhone
• bitsandboots 2y ago
  I really question what causes companies to ignore consumer opinion. It was obvious people wanted tactile controls. All they had to do was read comments, do user studies, ask for feedback... any sort of interaction with consumers at all. Its easy to say it was for profit. But surely they cant be that bad at the math of frustrating their audience versus saving pennies. I've similarly seen car companies doubling down on obviously hated design decisions for 10 years when it could be fixed with a refresh in 3. As if they have pride and spite rather than wanting to make money. I have a feeling the core issue is companies do not have any interest in oversight of their designers and their designers are unhinged.
  • beowulfey 2y ago
    Profit is an easy answer but sometimes easy is correct. Companies are prone to view consumer opinion negatively if they know they don't have a choice. Look at Apple, for example--the removal of the headphone jack, the constant reduction in ports, etc.
    • bitsandboots 2y ago
      Profit just seems like TOO easy of an answer. Apple's an exception in some ways. They absolutely will do things out of spite. They hate admitting they're wrong and take as long as possible to fix UX flaws as a result. And sometimes the bad UX is a result of some misguided mission. Instead of cost cutting, it's just as plausible to me apple removed things because they have a fetish for minimalism and miniaturization.
• Stubbs 2y ago
  For me the idea of any kind of interface in vehicles should tend toward audio anyway. Anything that takes your attention away from the road, wether it's tactile or touchscreen is a potential distraction. Voice control seems the obvious solution but there are probably better ideas, especially as someone who's accent confuses all but the best recognition, or well trained, software. I end up talking in an "American" accent to my car ... but then I do enjoy pretending I'm Michael Knight.
• Yeul 2y ago
  I had to pickup something I had ordered online from a postal locker. It had a touchscreen where I had to input the code but it register any input :( Maybe it's just my bad luck but touchscreens always break.
  • WesolyKubeczek 2y ago
    Ah yeah, boy do I like miscalibrated (you have to tap way off a button to click it) touchscreens in these things. Thankfully, for a lot of them I only need to use my phone to either show them a QR code or to open the locker from the app.
• flkiwi 2y ago
  I don’t think touchscreens were ever “in” except as a cost-saving measure by manufacturers, especially in the car space.
  • account42 2y ago
    Well yes, but they are very much "in" for exactly that reason in almost all appliances.
    • flkiwi 2y ago
      Depends if you’re looking at supply or demand side. I’ve been hesitating to look at a new stove because I’m terrified that I’ll find a bunch of capacitive touch buttons rather than proper knobs. I think the difference with appliances, though, is that they’re rarely a matter of life and death, as compared to something like operating climate controls in a car at highway speeds.
• bool3max 2y ago
  Touchscreens certainly have their place, for example in general purpose devices such as smartphones, but the idiotic cost-saving movement of putting them anywhere and everywhere as replacements of traditional, well-designed interfaces such as those in vehicles is absurd.
• pipeline_peak 2y ago
  My biggest concern with touchscreens in cars is longevity, something often advertised by auto makers like Subaru and Toyota. Say I own one for 15+ years, what happens when the firmware is outdated?
  • washadjeffmad 2y ago
    On an especially hot day, my ex's Civic touchscreen failed to boot, blocking her from using her AC, using her cameras or having full visibilty (the windows are so minuscule, it's like being in a submarine), being able to make or receive calls hands-free, or controlling her radio. The firmware being outdated wouldn't be more of an issue than with any other head unit if they weren't internet connectable on top of being so integrated. I'm afraid someone has hard coded some service SSID to autoconnect to, and once the signing keys are cracked, that's all someone would have to do to push a compromised update. I've made it a point never to own a vehicle that can accept OTA updates or that has always-on connectivity.
• Yizahi 2y ago
  I remember Volkswagen execs saying this a few years ago and promising to revert touch controls in cars in next gen. Guess what, it's still shitty touch controls in the recent EVs.
• yabones 2y ago
  I specifically bought a Mazda because it's the only car that feels safe to actually use. HVAC, audio, maps, calling, absolutely everything can be done with physical controls that minimize eyes-off-road time. There's no situation where you're sticking your arm out trying to tap some tiny on-screen button to get directions. Taking rides with other people in Teslas, subarus, fords, etc, is just wild. Having to go into a menu to change from vents to defrost is crazy, I don't understand how that's even legal.
  • chrbr 2y ago
    I agree, I love the Mazda approach to this in my CX-50. I'm not even sure if the display is touchscreen or not, because I always use the wheel-clicker thingie in the console to control it. This was an intentional design choice from Mazda, of course, that goes hand-in-hand with their philosophy of giving such control to the driver that they "[feel] oneness with the car, as if it is an extension of their body." [1] When searching around for a quote like that, I found a HN discussion from 2019 about the Mazda decision to eliminate touchscreens. [2] [1] https://www.mazdausa.com/discover/human-centric-design-puts-the-driver-in-control https://www.mazdausa.com/discover/human-centric-design-puts-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20200335
    • joezydeco 2y ago
      Mazda only enabled the touch on the LCD when the car was stopped. It seems that with the Gen4 models (2019 onward) they just cost-reduced the sensing circuit out of the design and nobody has really complained. Taking that layer out also reduces the spidering issue when the OCA fill rewets.
  • theonething 2y ago
    > Having to go into a menu to change from vents to defrost is crazy I don't know about the other makes you mention, but with my 2022 Subaru Crosstrek I turn on defrost with a physical button.
    • GuB-42 2y ago
• deleted 2y ago
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• freedomben 2y ago
  This makes me happy for the future, but also kind of mad for the past and present. I've been loudly and strongly against touchscreen buttons since the very beginning because they were so clearly inferior in most ways. Of course there are some benefits like the ability to dynamically change the interface (which is a big deal), but for things like car radio, HVAC controls, refrigerator settings, basically anything that isn't a smartphone, they are clearly bad. I endured many, many years of people in tech (especially Apple fans) telling me that I was just stuck in the old way and resisting change, and largely dismissed my arguments rather than admit that maybe the "courageous" approach might actually be wrong. And of course, once Apple did it, everyone else started copying and jumping on the same design. Regardless though, I'm really glad to hear that this is really happening. Ideally I hope that it causes some introspection and less confidence when "improving" designs in our industry, but given that's a human problem rather than a tech or company problem, I'm not expecting it. Next up, I hope people start realizing that "smart" appliances are also a regression :-D That concludes this episode of "old man yells at cloud." Thanks for listening.
• _0xdd 2y ago
  It seems like total lunacy to me that car manufacturers are putting essential functions (like controlling the HVAC) behind a touch screen. With my old car, I could keep CarPay navigation on the large touchscreen while I could simultaneously turn on the seat heater and adjust the temperature by blindly hitting the physical controls. In my new car, I literally have to press the screen to bring up the HVAC UI which then overrides CarPlay (and thus hides my navigation). This is completely insane to me.
• bibelo 2y ago
  Wait until they put AI instead of buttons (or touchscreens) oh wait...
• elif 2y ago
  Boo. I really see this as a kitsch pseudo-luddite nostalgia trip more than a change in functional styles. Appliances and cars can do this because they sell to adults. In 20 years these knobs will be seen for the fad that it is.
• everdrive 2y ago
  Touch screens have always been bad outside of a small, bespoke set of cases.
• 1zael 2y ago
  This is why I bought a 4Runner instead of a Tesla. Being able to grab, push, twist, and press buttons makes me feel one with my car. Relying on a screen feels one step removed. I want those buttons to click and clack!
• r00fus 2y ago
  I really love in my Kia EV6 that I can do almost everything with tactile controls. One of the major reasons I didn't get a Model Y.
• epicureanideal 2y ago
  How long until I can buy a car with tactile controls again?
• 2075 2y ago
  it is about time to stop the cognitive decline through feedback loops introduced on swipe devices. but also e.g. automotive is a place where this stuff does not really help unless you get (finger) location based mechanical feedback :D
• AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
  Thank God. As a gamer, for me there is no more crystalized example of "Everything doesn't need to be touchscreen-based!" than comparing the excellent Gameboy Advance Game, "WarioWare Inc" to its touch-based sequel on the Nintendo DS, "WarioWare: Touched". Some of the same minigames that were previously driven by d-pad and buttons were now entirely driven by the touchscreen and stylus, and were much worse off for it. Given that WarioWare: Touched! was released in 2005, it's a little depressing that it took the rest of the tech industry almost 20 years to learn from that mistake.
• AcerbicZero 2y ago
  What a lovely facepalm moment; anyone whos driven a car in the last decade could have told them this.
• gytdev 2y ago
  I'm below 40 and have problems with touchscreens just because I work a lot with my hands and they are constantly dry. Also touchscreens on a car are a very bad idea
• koromak 2y ago
  I've held onto a 2011 car waiting for this swing. Maybe in 2026 I can get a modern car with genuine tactile controls
• bofh23 2y ago
  I like multi-function displays (MFD) which were probably a necessity in aviation before touchscreen technology and also could be operated by a pilot with gloves on. Multi-function display - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display « a small-screen (CRT or LCD) surrounded by multiple soft keys (configurable buttons) that can be used to display information to the user in numerous configurable ways. » I’d like a Thrustmaster Cougar MFD with USB interface on a flat panel screen, perhaps with both illuminated soft buttons and knobs with labels on screen. I wonder why they don’t sell one with a built in screen? There’s lots of DIY builds that add them.
• i915 2y ago
  world is healing, who hasn't tried to use kodi remotes on their phone doesn't know life