19 ms·
How Olympics officials try to catch “motor doping”
- kelseyfrog 2y agoWhat's the trainer-athlete conversation like that leads up to installing such devices?
- reallymental 2y agoBoth parties want to win. There's no such conversation, they're all in it to win it. Do whatever it takes.
- willcipriano 2y agoJust show up one day and your bike has an unexplained button on it that makes you go fast?
- brookst 2y agoSure, for training purposes. You know, on a long ride, you don’t want to overdo it. Of course, the actual race bike needs the button for verisimilitude, and it would be a big mistake if a batter was left in, and…
- kelseyfrog 2y agoSurely there are certain logistics, like making sure it's charged before the race, or asking, "wouldn't I perform better by losing the extra weight?" being brought up before, no?
- recursive 2y agoThere's a UCI minimum weight for competition bikes at 6.8kg. We can't remove the button, as that would put us under the weight limit.
- kelseyfrog 2y agoThat's funny. Thank you for explaining it
- to11mtm 2y agoEven as far back as 2005-2006 there were stories of riders taping wrenches to bikes to get to the requisite weight, it's not even a new thing per se.
- legitster 2y agoI cannot strongly recommend enough the documentary Icarus, which starts out with the premise of "how hard is it to ask for steroids" and spirals into completely insane territory from there.
- sctb 2y agoAnd when does Mephistopheles chime in? I’m fascinated by the idea of doping in general, and there seems to be two distinct kinds: 1) something that everyone is doing (e.g. EPO at the Tour de France or AAS in bodybuilding) and 2) something that will give you an actual edge. “Motor doping” seems to be an example of the latter. It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame.
- OrigamiPastrami 2y ago> It really boggles my mind that there are people who are capable enough to be in the competition and still decide to cheat in order to win. Not because it’s immoral or dishonourable or anything like that, but just because it’s so fucking lame. If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. It has nothing to do with honor - it's just about winning. Cheating may be lame but it's a reality. It's not just limited to sports either. In fact I can't think of anywhere I studied/worked where cheaters/liars didn't get ahead (I know multiple cheating students who got into MIT for grad school, and I know multiple abusive liars who were consistently promoted at unicorn startups or FAANG while simultaneously working to get their honest coworkers fired). Such is life.
- sctb 2y ago> If your competition is cheating you are going to lose if you don't cheat. I put that in category #1, which isn't exactly cheating because it doesn't buy you an advantage. Cheating at school or at work is an interesting example. Perhaps by the time cyclists are considering motorizing it's just like... a job? And you have to win to eat?
- sethhochberg 2y agoI certainly don't condone cheating in sports but I have to imagine the sponsorship income and general notoriety opportunities are substantially different for someone who can make it into the top 20 or so of their division vs someone who "only" makes the top 100 or 500. Maybe you get into that top 100 and think you're _so close_ to being one of the people who are both elite at the sport and famous/paid generously for doing it, instead of just quietly and honestly elite.
- alistairSH 2y agoThe same as the conversation that leads to athletes doping their bodies. Somebody in the athlete’s inner circle suggests “hey, you’d be faster/stronger if you did X…” and it goes from there.
- KeplerBoy 2y agoMotor doping is somewhat different imho. It's a ballsy move to propose something like "hey, you'd be a faster cyclist if you rode a motorbike". After all with conventional doping it was still your body, sweat and pain.
- nemo44x 2y agoIt’s pretty rational really. You can linger in mediocrity always at risk of being replaced or you could take PEDs and either become competitive and important or get caught and be replaced, the same outcome as not using. Especially if you came from dirt. It’s all upside if you can’t compete without.
- buttercraft 2y agoWell, unless you value honesty and integrity.
- sidibe 2y agoFor those who aren't following starting a few years ago the top cyclists have hit some crazy new levels unseen even in the EPO era and the top ones at this year's Tour De France were smashing power output records and not even looking tired in the winner's case. I think so far no one has been caught motor doping even though they've looked for it for years. The rumor is the new magic is carbon monoxide rebreathing
- RegnisGnaw 2y agoPer the article, Femke Van den Driessche was caught motor doping.
- timeon 2y agoThat was not in road-race.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Saig6 2y agoThis is false, Pogačar and Vingegaards w/kg is lower than the best juicers in the 90s/00s.
- loeg 2y agoCan you put some names and numbers to that?
- 0x000xca0xfe 2y agoDo you have sources for that? Some quick searching yields this: "Based on the numbers, Tadej Pogačar has an FTP close to 7w/kg. These are the highest numbers that we’ve ever seen in professional cycling, and what’s even more incredible is that Pogačar is pushing 7w/kg for 40 minutes after four hours of racing." https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-racing/tour-de-france/power-analysis-pogacars-power-numbers-are-the-highest-weve-ever-seen-in-professional-cycling/ https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-racing/tour-de-fran...
- solardev 2y agoTangentially, it would be cool to just have sanctioned ebike races. We have motorcycles and cars, why not ebikes? I'd love to watch a high speed, no holds barred e-cyclocross/gravel/MTB race.
- PierceJoy 2y agoThere is a UCI sanctioned electric mountain bike enduro race.
- anthomtb 2y agoTo the GP, an electric mountain bike (eMTB) enduro race is probably not what you are envisioning. Mountain bike (MTB) enduro is stage racing. Specifically, timed downhill-only sections separated by untimed transfers between stages. The name comes from motorcycle enduro racing. Riders do not go head-to-head like in road cycling, cyclocross or motocross. eMTB enduro is exactly the same format but using electric-motor assisted bikes and, IIRC, one timed uphill stage thrown in. MTB/eMTB enduro is great fun as a participant sport but either not-there-yet or not-suitable as a spectator sport.
- mariusor 2y agoBut of course that there are e-cycling races. E-Giro took place basically alongside the original race. It's mostly populated by amateurs, but it's still there.
- etimberg 2y agoWhy not just have the Olympic host supply the same bike model to every participant rather than having each rider bring their own bike?
- RegnisGnaw 2y agoWhy not have the Olympic host supply the same shoes to every participant? The same swim suit to every participant. What's the end?
- hanniabu 2y agoThey really should, that way everyone is competing on equal levels. Less variables means a greater chance the best person wins.
- solardev 2y agoI don't think the Olympics were ever about equal footing or decreasing variables. To really level the playing field you'd have to have a clone army of athletes with the same genes, diet, lifestyle, training, coach, sleep, etc. Equipment is just one variable among dozens, and eventually the rules can change to limit their contribution (like with swimsuits).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rhinoman 2y agoOr it would benefit those participants who are best suited to the chosen gear. Taking an extreme example - imagine if we said “everyone must wear size 9 shoes so everybody’s on equal footing”.
- axblount 2y agoI'm not sure how your extreme example is helpful. No one has made a suggestion like that.
- oksurewhynot 2y agoFor those wondering what egregious motor doping (probably) looks like, here's an extremely famous (and some would say obvious) example of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6z7uUe0tVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6z7uUe0tVA For those not familiar with Tom Boonen, Cancellara effortlessly spinning up the Kapelmuur and putting in so much time that the chase helicopter can't even find him would be like beating Usain Bolt in the 100m by 5 seconds.
- jeffbee 2y agoNobody has ever shown that Cancellara was cheating there. Maybe he's just a monster. When Joop Zoetemelk casually disappeared from the front of the pack in the 1985 World Cycling Championship nobody could believe it because Joop was 40 years old. Nevertheless, he did it, and there was no stealth motor technology at the time.
- renewiltord 2y agoSo far, with cycling, P(discovered cheating later | outrageous) ~ 1. Some people will believe that when they go indoors the sun stops shining because there is no longer any proof. It's certainly a strict way to seek one's knowledge. Others have a different view.
- scheme271 2y agoYeah, except for Boonen is a sprinter and a hill climb even a short very steep one is probably the worst terrain for him. Cancellara isn't a climber but as a time trial specialist, he's a lot better suited for the kapelmuur than Boonen. And cancellara is better at descending as well.
- oksurewhynot 2y agoAh yes Tom Boonen, famously ill suited to the flandrian classics
- hondo77 2y ago
- Invictus0 2y agoThe sport of cycling is toast. The culture is too far gone and honest folks can't escape the suspicion of doping.
- jjtheblunt 2y agoWell it could have a resurgence if doping were explicitly allowed.
- dylan604 2y agoIf we want to see the best athletes, then we need to allow them to do whatever it takes to be their best. We want the best*. Is the best they can do with limits
- parpfish 2y agoyeah, it seems weird that certain scientific and technological breaktroughs are seen as cheating while other are not. nutrition and sports science have made training far more effective than it used to be. materials science has created lighter/better/faster everything. the only harm i can see is if it encourages unhealthy behavior (i.e., convincing people to take dangerous supplements, potentially early in their career before theyve even come close to 'making it')
- jjtheblunt 2y ago> if it encourages unhealthy behavior... i often think this about the olympic gymnasts, some of whom are so much shorter than normal for the ages that i wonder if the activity altered their growth.
- 4ggr0 2y agoPeter Thiel seems to agree, https://enhanced.org/ https://enhanced.org/
- tgv 2y agoYeah, let's let people fuck themselves up for our entertainment! Which movie was that again? Seriously, let's not. Those drugs are bad. Let's protect the people from the ridiculous pressure to win. Let's have some dignity.
- renewiltord 2y agoThese motors are pretty cool. They'll make mountain biking a lot more accessible and for me, a lot more fun since a lot more time on the downhill sections :)
- cheeze 2y agoEbikes are fantastic, but this would be like having a motor on a rowing competition. Nobody is hating on ebikes here, just using them to cheat to gain an advantage at the olympics... in a sport ripe with doping since day 1.
- renewiltord 2y agoAbsolutely, I'm talking about recreation. These are light motors, which makes them cool.
- Beijinger 2y agoWell, people dope now with CarbonMonoxide https://escapecollective.com/exclusive-tour-riders-are-inhaling-carbon-monoxide-in-super-altitude-recipe/ https://escapecollective.com/exclusive-tour-riders-are-inhal...
- beezlebroxxxxxx 2y agoUnder the rules, how different is that from something like just taking caffeine? Doping is usually in reference to banned substances. But huffing CO genuinely seems completely out of left field of any rules that I know. They probably will ban it, but before they do is it correct to call it doping?
- bigstrat2003 2y agoYes. The point is to see who is the best cyclist, not to see who can come up with the most clever biological hack to give themselves an edge.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y agoEvery single world class athlete spends most of their waking hours coming up with the most clever "biological hacks" to give themselves an edge. Training regimens, diets, rest and recovery schedules, equipment, sports psychology support, etc. etc. all are optimized to the nth degree to give athletes an edge.
- beAbU 2y agoI think you are missing the point of pro cycling to be honest. As other commenters have said, the very purpose of this all is to see who can cheat in a way that's not outright illegal. We are at a point of such peak human performance and conditioning that if you bring in equalisers such as the same bike for everyone etc, you'll just have a whole peloton crossing the finish line at the same time.
- Heliosmaster 2y agoThat story is a nothing burger. CO rebreathing is the technique to monitor hemoglobin mass changes after a period at altitude. It's a test that lasts 3 minutes and has no consequence. It's like saying "cyclist get better by drawing blood" when they just have their bloodwork done to see how they are doing with training. They aren't sleeping attached to a car exhaust.
- swarnie 2y agoA 20w electric motor is child's play, real women beat the shit out of a horse until it learns to dance.
- kart23 2y agoCan't you just weigh the bike? how much weight does a motor+batteries add? And anything that isn't super light would get heavier scrutiny.
- cheeze 2y agoBikes are at a point where they can be lighter than the UCI mandated minimum weight. Aero has been the name of the game for a while as well, so it's possible that a riders bike already is heavier than expected for aero benefit
- alistairSH 2y agoBikes can already be built WAY below the minimum weight set by UCI (6.8kg), so that doesn’t help - it’s easy to install a motor, battery, and still come in right at the limit.
- fire_lake 2y agoWhy call it motor doping? This has nothing to do with doping.
- more_corn 2y agoHas a good ring to it.
- Culonavirus 2y agoRhymes with motor boating, there's also gonna be plenty of that, as usual :P
- northwest65 2y agoI feel sorry for the poor bastards that had to go to Tokyo. As I understand it, clapping the other super fit athletes is a great part of the experience of competing (father was an athletics coach).
- Retr0id 2y agoIt's doping-adjacent if you ask me
- margalabargala 2y agoWhy do we suffix -gate onto political scandals that have nothing to do with the second half of the Watergate hotel?
- harrison_clarke 2y agowait until you hear about train doping
- jessekv 2y agoor semiconductors
- everly 2y agoNeither does blood doping, it's just the term they use for manipulation.
- fortran77 2y agoAre bicyclists particularly bad when it comes to cheating?
- this_user 2y agoNo, it's just that nobody wants to look too closely at other big sports. The same Spanish doctor who got busted for working with a lot of cyclists was also working with a lot of Spanish footballers at a time when their national team won both Euros and World Cup. Yet, the last part was quietly swept under the rug...
- tonymet 2y agothe other leagues have arenas which are vehicles for bribes. Cycling events span many different regions , are not as lucrative and don't have the means to cover up doping scandals like the other leagues do.
- duxup 2y agoWhy does cycling have such a reputation for this kind of thing? Is it just that we see it more there? Or is there actually more cheating in that sport than others?
- gpm 2y agoIs it a surprise that different sports have different cultures? In hockey you'd never see the sort of diving that you see in soccer. You'd be laughed off the ice. In soccer you'd never see the sort of casual violence after the whistle that you see in hockey. You'd be kicked off the field. If you weren't willing to play with people who will fake an injury, you wouldn't play soccer. If you weren't willing to play with people who will take physical shots at you, you wouldn't play hockey. if you weren't willing to be around doping... you wouldn't go into professional cycling. So once a sport gets that sort of reputation, of course it persists. The reputation causes the problem, the problem causes the reputation.
- timeon 2y agoThere is doping in these games as well. But there is more of it in cycling since it is more demanding on physical abilities.
- farnsworth 2y agoIt's harder to hide the motor in gymnastics
- White_Wolf 2y agoI wonder...is it?
- vocram 2y agoIt is a sport where the race outcome is mostly determined by a rider’s max power output. And the max power output is in large part determined by genetics. Going beyond that max requires some “assistance“.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
- bedrockwireless 2y agoThey've used thermal cameras in the past to catch this. Motors, especially motors this small putting out this many watts will get warm. Carbon fiber tubes generally don't get very warm. You just have to figure out how to point it at the riders when (or shortly after) you think they may have had the motor running.
- cooper_ganglia 2y agoI desperately want an Olympic games where everyone is allowed to do whatever they want to win; where cheating is not only accepted, it's strongly encouraged. Everyone comes roided up and doped out of their minds, and we see the limits the human body is truly capable of.
- cjbgkagh 2y agoWe already have CrossFit
- _yb2s 2y agoAlso strongman and USPA powerlifting- in both performance enhancing drugs are completely allowed, and top athletes even post about using them on Instagram... which is wild because they're still illegal.
- kyllo 2y agoUSPA has a tested division now and it's been gaining in popularity--it will soon be more popular than the untested division if it isn't already. Most of the top untested powerlifters have moved over to the WRPF (which does also have its own tested division). There are a lot of other smaller, regional, untested feds. Then there's the IPF and USAPL and their affiliates, which are fully tested, and are now far more popular than any of the untested feds. Untested might never go away, but tested has rapidly surpassed it in recent years.
- cosmic_quanta 2y agoIsn't there something Peter Thiel funded just for this? Edit: yes https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/enhanced-games-peter-thiel-olympics-b2488157.html https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/enhanced-games-...
- cjbgkagh 2y agoThey should make it more interesting by requiring a minimum age of 45 or whatever depending on sport, that will avoid the issue of damage that some of the peds can do to the young and impressionable. Plus normal athletes could come back into sports so there is a definitive before and after with a group that generally clean before. Plus what better way to demonstrate the anti aging effect than on people otherwise too old to be competitive.
- aquafox 2y agoEvery cyclist has a powermeter and the power is recorded. Why not require them to upload the power file directly after the race? Since they all ride the same course, you can correlate power output with speed (taking riders height and weight into ac ount) to spot outliers. I know there's drafting, differently aerodynamic bike setups and other factors to consider, but in principle I guess a sudden 20 watt external power gain could be detected that way.
- cheeze 2y agoWould be trivial to fake the data
- karaterobot 2y agoHow?
- blakes 2y agoThings like this have been done before: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/12/zwift-uci-cheating-astounding-championship-qualifier.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/12/zwift-uci-cheating-astou...
- genedan 2y agoWhen I used a power meter, the data could be exported in some kind of machine-readable format like CSV. All you do is change the numbers.
- giobox 2y agoIt wouldn't be that hard to mandate the riders use pedals that are only fitted at the course/track and otherwise stored by olympic officials. Power meters integrated in pedals have been a thing for a long time now: > https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/658593 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/658593 It doesn't need to be pedals either - it could be a standard crank arm or any other easily accessible part that can effectively house a power meter. I'm sure there are plenty of other issues with this power meter based approach, but securing the data is probably doable to a reasonable degree.
- KeplerBoy 2y agoThis whole topic of motor doping in cycling is so ridiculous. For those not familiar with the subject: Only one racer was ever caught doing it. I find it tremendously hard to believe that no one is cheating.
- Aperocky 2y agoIt's because the tiny engine is pretty much useless except for flat courses with a sprint finish. Any mountains and the cyclist have to carry that deadweight all the way just for it to work for the last minute, and by the end of the climb the cyclist carrying this might as well be gapped because of this weight. Same reason that you see riders jettison their bidons just before a climb in the tour de france.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tombert 2y agoI have no plans on competing; for a purely civilian purpose, is there a way to get the "motor doping" stuff for bikes? It seems like it would be kind of cool to get a bit of an artificial push when biking.
- zacharycohn 2y agoThat's just an ebike. There are many available, and even conversion kits for your existing bike.
- andrewf 2y agoSomething I didn't realize before trying one is the different assist settings available. The lowest one just made it feel like I'd slept better and was having an easy ride. The highest assist setting had a really obvious "kick". The bike I used didn't have a "cruise" setting that moved the bike along while your legs sat still, like I've seen on some bikes.
- MengerSponge 2y agoAnd yes, it's beyond kind of cool. It's a total game changer to be able to ride that fast with so little exertion. It feels like a superpower. Fun fact: net net, people are more active with an ebike, even though they expend less energy at any point of any particular ride.
- sahila 2y agoWhat does net net mean in this context? Is the implication that there's more riding ebikes vs regular ones and so they're more active? Hard to imagine that there's people taking long rides on ebikes, if they even last that long (25+ miles rides).
- tim333 2y agoI think that quote is based on survey research such as mentioned here https://storybicycles.com/blogs/ebike-blog/study-shows-e-bike-riders-get-more-exercise-than-traditional-bike-riders https://storybicycles.com/blogs/ebike-blog/study-shows-e-bik... Obviously it's going to vary a bit with individual cases. As an ebike myself it's handy you can choose the effort required depending on your mood etc.
- motohagiography 2y agoThe brilliance of cycling is that if you were to invent a cheating competition, you could never call it that because it would give away the game. You would need a pretext for rules, one that used some arbitrary but very specific set of contraints that disqualify all functionally efficient solutions outside their domain. They would enable byzantine regulations that created jobs for (pliable) authorities who outnumbered athletes, and be a constant source of subtext, scandal, misdirection, and betrayal. To appreciate the peculiar beauty of cycling you need to understand what it is. It is not merely a sport or an athletic competition, it is itself the art of cheating.
- jgust 2y agoYou also, perhaps intentionally, described all of motorsports.
- ryukoposting 2y agoWhen I think about "cheating taken to an artistic level," Baseball is the sport that comes to mind first. Drugs, tampering with the ball, tampering with the bat, sign stealing, and so on. Baseball is also rife with gamesmanship. stuff that feels like it could be cheating, but isn't - or, stuff that's cheating, but mostly unenforced. There's too much to be worth talking about here. Just read [1] instead. It makes sense that Baseball would be this way. It's stochastic. The outcome of one pitch has no innate correlation with the outcome of the next. There's relatively little causality in Baseball, and when everyone is a pro, it's hard to rely on talent alone. Some might even say it's a fool's errand. [1]: https://thebaseballcodes.com/2021/06/24/gamesmanship-in-baseballs-new-age-and-the-reality-of-unintended-consequences/ https://thebaseballcodes.com/2021/06/24/gamesmanship-in-base...
- mulmen 2y agoMay I introduce you to Smokey Yunick: > In another incident, Yunick showed up for a race with stock fender wells still installed on his Chevelle, even though the rules stated they could be removed. After the car qualified well due to improved aerodynamics, fellow competitors complained. Yunick replied, "The rules say you MAY remove them. They don't say you HAVE to." After qualifying, Yunick promptly cut out the fender wells. After further complaints to NASCAR, Smokey said, "The rules don't say WHEN I can remove them." A racer after HN's heart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick
- gosub100 2y agocouldn't they optimize this by only testing, say, the top 5 finishers?
- ipython 2y agoWhat’s incredible to me is the continued cries of innocence from the cyclists that have been flagged by these detection mechanisms. Just like Armstrong after he was accused of doping. It takes a special kind of person to continue to proclaim their innocence so fervently even when presented with irrefutable proof that they’ve cheated.
- voidUpdate 2y agoI think this a lot when I watch videos about speedrun cheating. People provided with evidence that they cheated but often they still deny it
- vintermann 2y agoMy guess would be that keeping up the public facade that you're not cheating requires a little "self-brainwashing" for lack of a better word, and that you don't get out of that mindset on a dime.
- lawn 2y ago> It takes a special kind of person to continue to proclaim their innocence so fervently even when presented with irrefutable proof that they’ve cheated. Is it? I'd say that everyone has the potential for this weird survivorship behavior where you can't admit the truth for yourself. It's probably related to a deep rooted cognitive dissonance where it's less painful to keep maintaining your innocense than to admit the truth. In the right environment (such as an ultra competitive one where your livelyhood is at stake) most people would rise to the occasion. Just as most people would be able to kill people in a war.
- boomboomsubban 2y agoNot to defend their cheating, but when you saying "I cheated" ends your career and the career of everyone involved with you, it's easy to see why they may dig in. It's not some game for them, this is their livelihood.
- ipython 2y ago
- ffhhj 2y ago> Then, a magnetometer and custom software register disruptions to the field that may indicate the presence of metal or magnets in and around a bike’s carbon-fiber frame. Hmm, they could try building an energy storage spring made of some composite materials.
- gorgoiler 2y agoElectric motors are definitely one way to achieve this but it seems so crude to use a device that’s detectable after the race. Instead, how about sealing up the downtube and filling it with a weakly exothermic gas producing mixture* and then adding some turbine blades — sorry I mean “triple butted crank stiffeners”, your honour — to the bottom bracket instead? One doesn’t normally pedal at 10,000 RPM so some other sort of gas-energy harvester design would be better but you get the idea. In a similar way to the case of the [spoiler alert] man stabbed with an icicle, the evidence will neatly and literally evaporate into thin air**. *Something on the chemical spectrum between “science fair volcano” and “sugar and fertilizer oh whoops I’ve made a pipe bomb” ought to do it. **Erm, apart from the gas turbine bit.
- thepasswordis 2y agoI wonder if you could use downhill sections to regenerate the high pressure inside of the tube. I love this idea. You're hired.
- BobaFloutist 2y agoWait now I'm imagining purely mechanical regenerative braking. Like the bike has no ability to generate its own power, but it has a spring (or compressed air or compressed liquid) inside the frame that contributes to turning the gearshaft but gets rewound/compressed while braking. Is this possible? Would it be against the rules as written?
- daemonologist 2y agoThe UCI rules are... extensive; it's definitely disallowed [1]. Even if not, there's a rule along the lines of "any technical innovation must be pre-approved," and I am pretty confident it would not be. [1] Probably by article 1.3.010: "The bicycle shall be propelled solely, through a chainset, by the legs (inferior muscular chain) moving in a circular movement, without electric or other assistance." - https://www.uci.org/regulations/3MyLDDrwJCJJ0BGGOFzOat https://www.uci.org/regulations/3MyLDDrwJCJJ0BGGOFzOat
- mensetmanusman 2y agoIs biking uniquely attractive to cheaters?
- robjan 2y agoYou can either enhance the athlete or the equipment, it just so happens that cycling involves more complex equipment attached to the athlete than most sports. I imagine this is even more of a concern in the Paralympics where various prosthetics, mobility equipment and other assistive technologies could give certain athletes unfair advantages.
- rurban 2y agoYes. The big tours had big cheating and the omerta going on for almost a hundred of years. And the never caught ex-dopers are now TV commentators or race managers. Without illegal methods you wouldn't be able to perform at this level. Go watch "Icarus"
- timeon 2y agoThe thing with Lance Armstrong popularized idea (especially in US) that cycling is exceptionally infested with cheating. But there is doping even in curling.
- omginternets 2y agoNext logical step after doping: turning your sport into a motorsport.
- robertclaus 2y agoI wonder if an energy capture device would be allowed to balance out uphill and downhill effort.
- hondo77 2y agoThese are races they're discussing. Not recreational cyclists. Racers are only coasting downhill if they're going so fast they can't pedal faster than their speed. Any energy capture downhill would slow a rider down in a race.
- somat 2y agoI know it's probably just for the headline but "Motor Doping" is the stupidest term I have heard since "kamikaze drone"
- 4ggr0 2y agowhat's the problem with "kamikaze drone"?
- somat 2y ago2 things The most important, kamikaze is a term used specifically for a human terminaly guiding themself along with their bomb onto the target. This is what made it so horrifying, If you are doing it remotely, it is not kamikaze, if a computer is guiding, it is not kamikazi. Secondly, Why invent a new term? If I asked "what do you call a device that is launched, autonomously guides itself to a destination, then explodes" the answer would be a "guided missile", this term has served this role well for many years, drones were unmanned aircraft used mainly for reconnaissance or training/target duty. When you strapped a bomb to it, the term for this sort of unmanned aircraft was "cruise missile" This is also my problem with the term "motor doping". doping makes absolutely no sense here in any previously used form of the word. When the magic low friction swimsuit was developed then banned, nobody called it cloth doping. the banned brush spike for running shoes, nobody called it shoe doping. Just because you are cheating does not make it doping.
- 4ggr0 2y agoi don't know, i think the term is very understandable and fitting. everyone knows what kamikaze planes were, so when they hear the term 'kamikaze drone' they know it must be about a drone sacrificing itself through a planned, destructive collision. i actually disagree more with your suggestion of calling them 'cruise missiles', as that's an actual current-day term which is actively being used to describe weapons in current conflicts. they're self-navigation missiles cruising to their target. most of the 'kamikaze drones' we see in ukraine are being flown by humans, the only reason the operator doesn't die is because they're controlling it remotely/virtually. i get what you mean, however i don't understand why it bothers you so much. lots of terms and words we use are not 100% accurate but understandable because of a shared context.
- jnsaff2 2y agoThe mockumentary Tour de Pharmacy is a fun watch about this and doping. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Pharmacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Pharmacy
- thenthenthen 2y agoVideo with example of electric motor build into bike frame[1] (Dutch /Flemish language). I love the ‘water bottle’. [1] https://youtu.be/loP9IA6ozjA?feature=shared https://youtu.be/loP9IA6ozjA?feature=shared
- Simon_ORourke 2y agoGreat to see Lance Armstrong's name (he of the legal threats regarding doping) getting rolled out and given a thorough going over again.
- WalterBright 2y agoFormula 1 should revert to 1968 technology. No electronics, no radio, no airfoils, pump gas. Improvements only for safety equipment. I hath spaketh.
- amelius 2y agoJust give them all the same bike at the start.
- wruza 2y agoI’m not even remotely a pro cyclist, but even for me there’s no such thing as “the same bike”. Speaking from my experience with repairing my bike in the ‘90s and feeling different modes the exact same “hardware” can operate in due to the slightest changes.
- amelius 2y agoWell, it will even out over entire careers.
- hoseja 2y agoRace cycling is such a degenerated sport.
- mFixman 2y agoI wonder how the motor detection deals with groupsets with electronic shifting like Di2, which I assume are allowed in the competitions.
- tokai 2y agoIt has no impact on motor detection.
- flerchin 2y agoThe original Olympics were competed in the nude. I'm not saying we need to go that far, but the Olympic committee has a standard pool for all the swimmers, and they could provide standard bikes for all the cyclists.
- ubermonkey 2y agoThere are too many variables in bike fit, user preference, etc., for this to be viable.
- Gravityloss 2y agoYeah the different frame geometries make it hard. Another alternative would be if the transmission was provided by the officials and would be fitted to the bike and sealed before start but that could also spell problems. In javelin and pole vaulting the athletes bring their own equipment. Has anyone ever cheated there? Interesting possibilities...
- moralestapia 2y agoHuh? But that's a solved problem. Bikes for all those needs exist.
- LeifCarrotson 2y ago"User preference" does not need to be a part of the sport. I'm sure some athletes would prefer a more ergonomic discus or shorter hurdles in track and field, maybe the gymnasts would like a slightly different geometry or spring characteristic for the bars or vault, but they don't get that choice. I understand that people need differently sized bikes because they have different heights and slightly different ratios of leg/torso/arm lengths, but I can easily imagine having three or four standardized frames with adjustable seatposts, seat rails, and stem length, with a selection of various length stems and cranks. Just put the same wheels, the same mech, the same bars, and everything on every bike and see which rider is fastest. Call it an "Olympic bike".
- ubermonkey 2y ago
- major505 2y agoIts my impression, or cyclists are more competitive to the point of cheating more than most sports?
- stefs 2y agoI'm not sure - there are other disciplines where PEDs are as much of a problem as in cycling, and the possibility of other forms of cheating, like motor doping, isn't really feasible elsewhere.
- wiether 2y agoIt's the impression given by the medias because cheating is actually taken seriously in cycling. In other sports its so common that its considered normal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2op5XG7LGkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2op5XG7LGkI
- ubermonkey 2y agoI remember the hullabaloo about the Femke Van den Driessche case; I'm shocked that the IEEE article's contention that the motor used there could produce 200W of power. 200W is a LOT in cycling. See https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-... We talk about one's Functional Threshold Power, which is the amount of power you could produce for a solid hour and then be completely spent. There are a variety of ways to arrive at this number (ie, other than trying to do exactly that, which is fraught with peril b/c of pacing issues), but the metric is well respected and is used as the foundation of most cycling training plans. So the wattage is one thing, but your weight is the other. Watts per kilo is the magic number, because obviously it takes more power to move 6'3" Wout Van Aert than it does to move 5'9" Tadej Pogacar. Big men make more power, but it takes more power to move them, so usually the winners look more like Pogi (or, in the case of this year's Tour de France, they look EXACTLY like Pogi, ha ha). Anyway: 200W is a BIG number. A LOT has been made of Pogacar's performance this year, and it may be his output was the highest ever seen in the sport. Estimates places his FTP in the 7w/kg range, which is bananas. Pogi weighs 66kg, that implies power of about 462W. He may well be the most elite, powerful guy to ever race, and a 200W motor would add 40% for HIM. Van den Driessche is not in his league; it's likely 200W would come close to doubling her FTP. If you're going to cheat, you need to be subtle. 200W isn't subtle. 200W output also implies one HECK of a battery, which would be obvious when lifting the bike. Given that the bike in question was for cyclocross -- where competitors carry their bikes often as they cross obstacles -- I'm thinking that must be a mistake. The article ALSO note that while the maker of the motor in question is out of business, you can also experience a 200W push with a bike from Lotus. However, if you click through, you find that Lotus is claiming the motor in the bike they're selling "weighs just 300 grams but packs a powerful 125W per kilogram." IOW, the assist motor puts out only 37W.
- NwtnsMthd 2y ago200W at 300g is realistic for a modern BLDC motor. The article states that Maxon was the motor supplier so they likely used the EC-4pole series, I'm guessing it's one of these. https://www.maxongroup.us/medias/sys_master/root/8882556960798/EN-21-261.pdf https://www.maxongroup.us/medias/sys_master/root/88825569607... It's 30mm diameter to fit in a down-tube, 200W, and 300g. But just because it's 200W doesn't mean you have to run it at maximum capacity, there's no reason you couldn't run it at 5-50W.
- londons_explore 2y ago> just 20 or 30 watts of extra power is enough to tilt the field and clinch a race Any battery and motor which can deliver that for any appreciable amount of time should be plenty big and heavy enough to easily locate. 30 watts for a 2 hour race = 60 watt hours, over 200 grams of battery. Thats gonna be hard to hide on a bicycle made to be super lightweight. Looks like the real cheaters are switching bikes between the inspection and the race.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tony2016 2y agoI would like to see such motors and how they are hidden. If it's not a mid drive motor or on the whee's hub, where can it be?
- mknux 2y ago[dead]
- ksoajl 2y ago[dead]