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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language
- usgroup 3y agoI've invested in a fair bit of time in learning Rust fairly recently -- asking naively, but is this sort of thing something which could realistically compromise the future of the language?
- cookieperson 3y agoNo. It's just people doing what they want with OSS. The majority of the mindshare is still in one place. It looks more like a protest and or a hobby project then anything else.
- akkad33 3y agoWasn't Rust also started as a hobby project?
- cookieperson 3y agoYep! And that's why I say go for it. Worst comes to worst some smart kids get great experience writing cool software.
- WuxiFingerHold 3y agoThis fork is just a symbolic act. However, the ongoing drama around Rust creates real damage. Why should someone invest in a language where there're constantly drama about social or political issues? The focus should be on improving the language?
- usgroup 3y agoI suppose that is my feeling too -- is there historical precedence for something like this in other languages anyone can reference?
- esjeon 3y agoI'm not sure if this is a joke or serious.
- idiomaticrust 3y ago2 months after fork and there is a first homophobic scandal that they try to cover up.
- AbuAssar 3y agothis is an immature move related: https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/12kze9m/how_does_rlinux_feel_about_the_rust_drama/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/12kze9m/how_does_rli...
- Klonoar 3y agoThis is not new.
- tirpen 3y agoWell, people fork languages and libraries all the time. Does this fork have a significant amount of support? By whom? Or why is this news worthy?
- grt_thr 3y agoRust has been rather monolithic. There is no such thing as a rust spec, just whatever the rust compiler does. This is a good first step to making it into a language people work in rather than just blog about.
- hmry 3y agoA code-identical fork with a different name for trademark reasons is not going to make the Rust team write a spec. Look to the GCC Rust implementation for that. Also, people already do work in Rust. It's in the Linux kernel right now.
- Brometheus 3y agoAnd windows, just behind a flag for the moment.
- tormeh 3y agoCompiler behavior is the only thing that matters in any language, as per Hyrum's law. A spec is a useful tool for discussing and building a language, but don't confuse the map for the territory.
- eatYourFood 3y ago[dead]
- insanitybit 3y agoI've done professional rust development and know many others who do. A spec hasn't been an issue for us.
- deleted 3y ago
- the_mitsuhiko 3y agoNecessary context: this happened a while back due to the trademark policy proposal.
- underdeserver 3y agoPlease, no. This really is a desperado move, I want to hope the situation is not so dire.
- insanitybit 3y agoThis fork isn't even new, nor is it interesting. It's a meme at this point.
- y7 3y agoThe main website has an explanation for the reasons behind this: https://crablang.org/ https://crablang.org/ More context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35583089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35583089
- Dalewyn 3y ago[flagged]
- tutuca 3y agoThat's a pretty political statement Dale.
- Dalewyn 3y agoRight now it's being armed, eventually it will be thinking and stating wrongspeak. Seen this song and dance play out so many times my notebook is rusty from age.
- Twirrim 3y agoIf it involves people, it will be political. There's absolutely zero way to avoid it short of it being a single-person project (and arguably even _that_ will be Political at the very least).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- keyle 3y agoI'm just getting into Rust and loving it. This is a big yikes. This is forking for all the wrong reasons. I mean, as a Rust user, why should I use your compiler fork? I am hopeful the same thing will happen than with node.js/io.js, and it will iron itself out.
- maxehmookau 3y agoAt least they didn't name it Crust.
- vekidev 3y ago[flagged]
- drtgh 3y agoAlways names with generic words which complicates the search. Rust metal, Rust the game, Rust what. And now Crab cooking, Crab fauna I'm absolutely convinced that software names are a conspiracy for to bring users to the threshold that will make them weep.
- Hamuko 3y agoMany of the non-generic ones are even worse. C? C#? C++? D? Unable to look up "C++ language". The following search tokens are too short: C
- reaperman 3y agoI completely agree, but C/C++ are excusable for being named before any internet search engines existed at all. The other two…well, either viewpoint would have excellent arguments pro/con.
- hxugufjfjf 3y agoAt least with Go you can use "Golang" in search and get reasonable results. With Rust, I often have to write "rust programming language + [what im searching for]" which is really annoying. Not sure if anyone ever dubs Rust to "Rustlang".
- jen20 3y agoThe website is literally rust-lang.org.
- lwansbrough 3y agoDoing far more harm than good.
- dmeijboom 3y agoThis happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.
- silisili 3y ago> All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. They are doing a fantastic job of creating drama all by themselves. I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.
- qersist3nce 3y agoMany years ago, I read a comment on Slashdot saying "the fact of a programming language having a "code of conduct" makes it ripe for everlasting drama and politics." It made sense then and it makes sense now.
- DanHulton 3y agoEvery community has a code of conduct, it's just that some of them are explicit about it.
- qersist3nce 3y agoWould the Rust foundation be ok with SQLite CoC? or a software project with a CoC in compliance with Uganda laws?
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThe fascist part of it is forcing people to use them and threatening them when they don't understand the need to address a non-problem with terminology, duties, and responsibilities they don't agree with.
- alkonaut 3y agoThe reason slashdot is no longer relevant as the go-to tech discussion site is just because everyone who loves hating on "modern" things like CoC stayed, and everyone else left. These days it would be more strange to see a major project NOT have a CoC than seeing one. There is drama and politics in any large org whether or not there is a CoC or not.
- quangv 3y agoRelated: https://www.theregister.com/2023/04/17/rust_foundation_apologizes_trademark_policy/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/04/17/rust_foundation_apolo...
- vekidev 3y agoI don't understand the meaning behind having to fork the already good language.
- logicchains 3y agoIt's so that people can "use it while retaining the ability to create content and promote its name, logo, and other assets however we please, without the limitations imposed by a trademark policy".
- dijit 3y agoConcerns with leadership, trademark and governance. The language is good, the foundation outwardly appears to have some problems with how much power they seem to believe they are entitled to have.
- colesantiago 3y agoForks of a large project seldom survive, they almost always die with no active development. This is a futile move.
- dijit 3y agoThere's plenty of precedent that states forks die, however to describe it as entirely futile is: A) Not exactly constructive. B) Possibly untrue. The move might indeed die, if the rust foundations leadership gets it's act together. Which is a strong push for them to sort things out rather than assuming everything will be fine with their current heavy handed and opaque approach. Failing this, we could be in a situation with another Rocky linux, FlatCar linux or LibreOffice ;) (examples of successful forks)
- oefrha 3y agoIn the examples you gave, either the original project shifted course significantly, or there are major technical disagreements. Here, pointless trademark drama is all there is, and the fork AFAICT replaced some strings and nothing else.
- dijit 3y agolibera.chat
- oefrha 3y agoNot sure what you are trying to convey. There are a ton of IRC hosts out there and they are all interchangeable. A real language fork is not interchangeable, even a different implementation of the same language is going to have its subtle compatibility problems. People pay the price for tangible benefits like performance or portability. You don’t need to use a fork and pay the technical price for it if the only benefit is that Rust Foundation hypothetically won’t sue you for using the word “rust”; just frigging use “crab” as the moniker for “rust”.
- 3y ago
- BaculumMeumEst 3y agoNow you can use Moral Rust for your hobby CLI projects and Fascist Rust at work.
- coffeeblack 3y ago???
- olgeni 3y agoDear God it's always drama, drama, drama, and bullshit.
- Hamuko 3y agoCrab definitely has a better logo.
- coffeeblack 3y agoInteresting, how many negative comments this gets. People seem to love monoculture run by committees. This is exactly what OSS is all about. Take a code base and develop it into different directions. Both code and organization. And "natural selection" will have some forks die and others strife.
- epolanski 3y agoI share the spirit. OSS is all about forking. My company works with a very very niche TypeScript fork as well. Everyone should be free to work and contribute in the way he prefers for whatever reasons.
- jacquesm 3y agoForking a language that aims to be the long term stable systems language for a very large part of the IT landscape isn't a good thing.
- layer8 3y agoIt’s not the language that aims to be that, it’s people. And different people have different aims.
- jacquesm 3y agoI've followed enough of the Rust debate that I'm suspicious of those people that have lost sight of that particular goal.
- arp242 3y agoIf people think this is useful then it's their time to spend on it; it's not our choice to make. If you don't like it then you can just ignore it. I really don't see the problem.
- jacquesm 3y agoIt's not our choice, but we can debate the choice. I think it's a bad choice, for many reasons, one of which is that having multiple competing forks that are all Rust but not quite isn't going to help Rust adoption and is going to cause fence sitters to look somewhere else. Whenever this kind of drama hits a language eco-system it is bad for the language, there is plenty of precedent.
- vegancap 3y agoContinually stating that they aren't 'at odds' with the Rust project. But, surely they are if they're creating an entirely separate fork? I have no skin in the Rust game, so have no opinion, but that strikes me as odd
- codeflo 3y agoFor anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respected contributor", don't want to lose their own position of influence, or behave too much like sheep to stand up for what's right. Moves like these target them. This sends the message "fix this or the community will move on". Credible threats of a hostile fork have sometimes worked in the past to get a steering committee to fix their shit, see Node.js/io.js. It's no guarantee, but it's one of the very few weapons a community has if a project's leadership remains stubborn.
- pietro72ohboy 3y ago> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief" but Stallman has been a positive force in ensuring that consumers today can work, play and do practically anything on a largely free platform. Via the FSF, his contributions towards the GPL license series ensures that contributions to the Linux kernel stay open allowing the kernel to improve as a whole.
- pydry 3y agoHe doesnt seem to be liked by some of the more powerful, corporate entities in tech, probably because he pushes some agendas that are somewhat anti-their-profits. I think this was behind the rather unsuccessful attempts to cancel him a few years ago, which cast a shadow over his reputation.
- devoutsalsa 3y agoI heard Stallman speak once about FOSS. He struck me as a very interesting person, but not very flexible in his views. Even if he's 100% "right" in the long run about how digital products should be completely free, his views are so polarizing that it'd be hard to interact with him long enough to understand his positions.
- nurettin 3y agoNot intended to fracture, but obviously will, because people prefer language support to unmaintained crates.
- weinzierl 3y agoI disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and sometimes not and in both cases, just because it might not work does not make it an immature move.
- solarkraft 3y agoIt's the threat of people abandoning the current leadership. It has to be credible to make a change.
- cookieperson 3y agoMaybe it'd be a good idea to just clean house and elect new people. Possibly even people who resigned exclusively and some people with emotional maturity.
- yawpitch 3y agoToo bad it isn’t credible.
- lloeki 3y agocue node.js - io.js and gcc - egcs
- usrusr 3y agoI was about to mention EGCS, then looked it up to refresh my memory: wow, that split didn't even last two years, crazy how the passage of time changes as you become less young.
- Cthulhu_ 3y agoOr the short lived "@ lang", a fork of typescript or javascript (I believe) that added annotations because the Angular developers really wanted annotations. I can't even find any information about it anymore, maybe my google skills are failing.
- preommr 3y agoBranching projects and diversity is always good. But the reasons for this one are laughable. Formalising a trademark policy and a guy getting demoted to regular speaker insetad of keynote speaker? Seriously? People are screaming fascism over this?
- denton-scratch 3y ago> a guy getting demoted to regular speaker insetad of keynote speaker? I don't think the issue was who the keynote speaker should be; as far as I can tell, it's the (lack of) process over that decision. /me has no skin in this game.
- commitpizza 3y agoHere is a good walk-through of the changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gutR_LNoZw0 I don't particularly care about Rust but one of the reasons I've hesitated to learn / use it was because the project seemed like it was led by woke people that pushed politics into the programming space which imo is completely unnecessary. One thing I've learned by experience is that people who push their political agenda into everything is inherently toxic and will destroy everything they come in contact with. There is no need for a Code of Conduct like so many programming projects have today, there is no need to have a "Black lives matter" banner on the framework website nor is there any need of supporting any other political cause unless it directly affects the project or the maintainers. If you start advocating for cause x there will always be people who rightfully will argue for cause y. I'm sick and tired of general politics getting pushed into everything.
- alkonaut 3y agoPolitics is everywhere and everything. There is no chance of "keeping politics out of" anything. Making such a decision or rule is highly political too. This goes for sports, entertainment, culture, tech, open source.. The fact that there are "counterexamples" of successful projects that "thrive without involving politics and never had a CoC" isn't an argument to the contrary.
- H12 3y agoI also find myself frequently questioning the labeling of things one doesn't like as "political". Having a code of conduct that focuses on treating people w/ respect and discouraging personal attacks is not political, and it's strange to me that someone would label it as such.
- commitpizza 3y agoI get that there will be politics enough to go around and honestly I only think it strenghten my point. There is no need to bring in external politics since there is enough in the technical space alone.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rowanG077 3y agoHonestly this bomb was waiting to burst for a long time now. Rust has aligned politically instead of just being a cool language. Bringing politics into something unrelated which brings people together is always a recipe for disaster.
- incrudible 3y agoBut… the people who made it brought the politics. They own it. Rust is also not a cool language. You can not be cool and fuss about soundness and memory safety at the same time. It is mutually exclusive.
- smolder 3y ago> You can not be cool and fuss about soundness and memory safety at the same time. Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
- rowanG077 3y agoI'm struggling to decide whether this comment is a troll comment or not. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt. > But… the people who made it brought the politics. They own it. They don't. At the very least not fully. The compiler itself is MIT/Apache licensed. This gives up a lot of control and I think many people, including me, would say that means they don't own it anymore. > Rust is also not a cool language. You can not be cool and fuss about soundness and memory safety at the same time. It is mutually exclusifve. Whether the people who implement Rust and/or write Rust are cool has nothing to do whether the language itself is cool. I also fail to grasp why caring about memory safety and soundness and being cool is considered mutually exclusive. Why would it be?
- nologic01 3y agoPoliticking, back-stabing, power games, or even genuine but irreconcilably different visions and values are like 90% of corporate life. It is almost deterministic: when collective behavior builds something interesting somebody will try to climb on the building roof to stick out and be seen and somebody else will try to prevent them. The difference with FOSS is that such individual/community dynamics is out in the open, meticulously documented in git repos, so even a small bit of that behavior creates fireworks. This isn't really a weakness of the model and it is futile to believe that this type of phenomena could be completely eliminated if we could somehow devise the "perfect code of conduct" or governance. Hunker down, build good FOSS stuff. This, too, will pass.
- ZoF 3y ago[dead]
- intelVISA 3y agoFinally, is this Rust but good? All the best for Crab Lang, they have my contact info if they ever need a PLT legend.
- noobdev9000 3y ago[flagged]
- znpy 3y agoI was expecting this to happen, sooner or later, given all the drama around rust, it was just a matter of time. I really hope this project doesn't take a bad turn, and succeeds.
- sgt 3y ago3 years later; Crab has been forked to the Shrimp language /s
- yla92 3y agoAll this reminds me of node.js vs io.js
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago> A community fork of a language named after a plant fungus. All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy! In a language like Rust isn't bureaucracy a good thing? I'm out of the loop on Rust drama FYI
- nindalf 3y agoThis fork promises "All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!" Compelling, until you realise that all the commits are auto-merges of rust-lang/rust's main branch. Which means the same teams doing the same work, under a different name. Rust is experiencing growing pains because they're still figuring out a governance structure that works for everyone. They want to simultaneously keep the current structure of bottom up development where each team (compiler, lang, crates.io, cargo) has the autonomy to make decisions for themselves, but the project as a whole can speak can come to a consensus and speak with a single voice. That's what this RFC tries to capture (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfc-leadership-council/blob/main/text/3392-leadership-council.md https://github.com/rust-lang/rfc-leadership-council/blob/mai...). But the project isn't there yet, and is making these frustrating missteps in the interim. The lack of transparency into these missteps manifests as "bureaucracy" to outsiders like us. If Crab lang actually attracted people doing the real work of development, they would have the exact same "bureaucracy" as teams tried to figure out how to build consensus and speak with one voice. The fact that they don't have bureaucracy is a direct consequence of them not doing any work right now. None of the crab lang people are involved in actually building Rust, as far as I can tell, so they might not be aware of this. Lastly, I want to note that the top comment in this thread is blaming the Foundation, which is simply bizarre. The Foundation very explicitly tries to stay hands off on technical decisions and does not interfere in how the teams organise themselves. You may disagree with that decision, but it's an inaccurate characterisation to blame them.
- ehvatum 3y ago> The fact that they don't have bureaucracy is a direct consequence of them not doing any work right now. Is “bureaucracy” a euphemism for Diversity, Equity And Inclusion busybodies, in this case?
- starkparker 3y agohttps://github.com/orgs/crablang/projects/4?pane=issue&itemId=28932267 https://github.com/orgs/crablang/projects/4?pane=issue&itemI... > crab #51 > create experimental branch > opened last week > just need to create the experimental branch > it will start from the current state of our master branch, which is currently synced with upstream project but afterwards will not receive updates unless they can be incorporated without too many conflicts.
- cornfutes 3y agoSay what you will about BDFL development, but if the alternatives was so great, Unix and Go wouldn't have remained the de facto implementations.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- planede 3y agoI don't see this as a real fork, the same way CentOS isn't (or wasn't) a real fork for RedHat, or Iceweasel wasn't a real fork of Firefox. This seems only meant to be work around the trademark. If all this does is to establish an other, non-trademark encumbered name you can use to refer to the language and the compiler than that could be good.
- cormacrelf 3y agoIf that’s what happens, it’s not a great outcome. Foundation changes policy, restricting the use of a mark, to enormous opposition. After much dissent, the community responds by… ceasing to use the mark. That’s what they were asking for! The policy was bad. So is disinviting someone from a keynote address. The question is, do you want those things to be changed? Acceding to the demands and quietly backing away, no matter how much fun it is to add a crab emoji file extension, will not achieve that on its own. If a whole slew of things were only available in Crab, the Rust trade mark would be devalued. That would be the one coherent theory of why you would launch such a project and try to get others on board. And it is why Ashley G Williams was commenting in that Register piece on the lack of technical talent (“language designers”) that had jumped ship. Commitment of talent and effort and resources is by and large what makes the trade mark valuable. People who are important to the project leaving is the only useful measure of an effective protest. Since the Crab project fails to mention any specific people who have signed on, or even who decided to create it, I don’t see it having any impact whatsoever. The Rust Foundation will not feel threatened by this. I suspect the maximum it can be is just another IceWeasel. That is certainly the vision laid out by this person on one of the issues, who despite posting as if they created it, is careful to disclaim any responsibility for the project or to call any of the decisions their own. (Come on!) https://github.com/crablang/crab/issues/14#issuecomment-1508776721 https://github.com/crablang/crab/issues/14#issuecomment-1508... It’s also the vision laid out on the website: “promoting the language without worrying about the litigation associated with trademark infringement.” Basically the project has outlined the least ambitious possible goals and apparently nobody is willing to sign their name on it. My advice is to write an open letter and open it for signatures instead.
- Xylakant 3y ago
- allisdust 3y agoOne good thing about these pointless forks is, they help reduce the number of people who are in it for the drama and get emotionally turbulent for every disagreement. Eventually people who actually care for the language and invested in its long term success remain. I wish the crab people well and hope they never decide to come back to Rust. PS: Can't help but chuckle reading people's comments on wanting to either abandon Rust or not try it. Used to be that languages were picked based on use case/fit. Then it turned to hype cycle. And now it's going to be based on people drama ?
- ezekiel68 3y agoIt's a whitelabel copy based on policy disagreements, not unlike the "Iceweasel" (now Debian Firefox-ESR)[0] fork of Firefox. Just dawned on me after I wrote the first sentence that both actions targeted Mozilla offspring. [0] https://wiki.parabola.nu/IceWeasel_History https://wiki.parabola.nu/IceWeasel_History
- fooker 3y agoThis means something about Mozilla policies/politics is going wrong.
- lelanthran 3y ago> This means something about Mozilla policies/politics is going wrong. Again.
- caconym_ 3y agoNot really. At the scale of Rust and Firefox, some level of disagreement within and without the relevant political structure(s) is unavoidable.
- ragnese 3y agoI thought Mozilla barely has anything to do with Rust anymore. I assume they're part of the foundation or something, but are they actually setting/imposing any policies for Rust anymore?
- arp242 3y agoThat's correct; Rust is entirely spun off from Mozilla. I don't think any of the current Rust Foundation people ever worked for Mozilla.
- insanitybit 3y agoThere's nothing wrong with Firefox policy that led to IceWeasel. Mozilla owns the Firefox Trademark. Someone wanted to avoid that so they created IceWeasel. This is working as intended. There's no controversy, there's no one saying "wow I can't believe Mozilla would own the Firefox trademark !", it's just... how someone wanted to play it. It's incredibly unlikely that this was necessary or actually achieved anything meaningful other than "Mozilla's trademark policy does not apply to this"... but that's a whole other thing. edit: Actually, what it achieves is that Debian can distribute a modified Firefox (because I believe they may modify source code for it) without representing it as Mozilla Firefox, which is great. Again, working as intended - now no one is confused, you know that the Firefox you are getting is not the one straight from Mozilla.
- still_grokking 3y agoThis will go nowhere. That's sure. It has exactly zero technical advantages over the original. It has not even the plan to add any improvements over the original… The plan is just to merge upstream. It has no funding. (And a project of this sized needs a lot of funding, just to get the day to day maintenance going.) This whole thing is completely pointless. I'm wondering why it gets so much attention.
- naasking 3y ago> It has exactly zero technical advantages over the original. It has not even the plan to add any improvements over the original… The plan is just to merge upstream. Technical advantage is not the goal. Here is the actual reason they forked: https://crablang.org/ https://crablang.org/ The Crab (or “CrabLang”) community fork was created as a lighthearted yet measured response to the growing concerns within the community about the influence of corporations and the restrictive trademark policy proposed by the foundation
- xoac 3y agoIs anyone with significant contributions to the language behind this? Otherwise who cares? Another twitch/discord stunt to generate views and clout.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- gloosx 3y agoThere are five posts in the past 47 days that desperately try to draw attention to the fact that Rust has a community fork now called Crab. The last four accumulated almost no activity, but this one suddenly made it.
- Capricorn2481 3y ago[flagged]
- thdxr 3y agopeople love blaming feedback to the system instead of the system no one wants two versions of rust including the creator of crablang but this is how you provide signals to those in charge that they’ve gone over the line
- KevinMS 3y agoIt doesn't matter if this will eventually be a "real" fork or not, I don't see that as a meaningful criticism. However, a fork + thousands of stars is one of the more unique ways of a grass roots protest.
- pjmq 3y agoI have absolutely 0 problems with them forking Rust off under a new moniker but "Crab lang" is an abomination of a name.
- macinjosh 3y agoI use a language because it works for what I am doing, not because I know everyone who wrote the code is perfectly nice and well behaved. If we are going to be easily offended wtf is up with the crab wielding a knife? So violent.
- TheChaplain 3y agoFor those who are just confused about the whole situation (like I was), there's an video explaining the issue that lead the fork happening; https://youtu.be/gutR_LNoZw0 https://youtu.be/gutR_LNoZw0
- unixhero 3y agoIt seems that the Rust project is going sideways
- junon 3y agoNice. I like this. The Rust core team/foundation/project/whatever nonsense needs to get its shit together. Their actions are starting to kill the project.
- azraeldv 3y agotop language : "rust", shell
- timcavel 3y ago[dead]
- dang 3y agoRelated: CrabLang - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35592005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35592005 - April 2023 (77 comments)
- unethical_ban 3y agoOther than the title seeming to imply Crablang is now the canonical language, I see no problem with this as a casual observer. They say they want to keep the fork in sync with "upstream", so they aren't trying to split the community away from Rustlang, but to have an alternative administrative structure. Alright! That's always been a core feature of open source.
- renewiltord 3y agoI really like reading/writing Rust, but stay away from the community. Highest drama mainstream lang community ever but they've created a pretty good ecosystem. Except for the actix fiasco, it's generally been quite chill as a user. You float above the twisting nether and grab what it throws out, which is pretty good.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tpoacher 3y agoOne thing I always find interesting / amusing is how the timing of certain types of post here on HN is in a sense far more informative (e.g. by implication as to "what is the current zeitgeist that has suddenly made this "news" or relevant again?), than the linked articles themselves. E.g. crablang wasn't exactly announced yesterday for this to be newsworthy in itself; but an HN top post on crablang almost serves as a reliable signal for yet another rust gossipworthy event being in the news. Same with Signal/Telegram as a signal for WhatsApp; Telegram as a signal for E2EE, etc
- pxc 3y agoIt was posted in the comments to the 'Why I'm leaving Rust'¹ post that made it to the front page two days ago. At that point it was predictable that Crab would make it to the front page in a day or two. Comments with links on front page items tend to turn into successful submissions within a day or two like that. Or rather, a fair number of front page items at any time turn out to have been preceded that way. -- 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36101501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36101501
- tpoacher 3y agoAgreed that this is one of the major mechanisms. But that's not the point I'm making here. It's a more general point regarding how the implicit "Why now?" question is often more newsworthy than the explicit "What?" being reported. And also the fact that, unless the reader is willing to make a conscious connection to that fact, the lack of nuance often serves to swing a discussion in the opposite direction to what conscious examination of the timing would suggest (e.g. via the framing effect).
- throwaway1777 3y agoThis is the power of the media and why people fight over it so much. Whenever you see content you should not only question the content itself but also ask “why am I seeing this now”?
- newobj 3y ago
- Asooka 3y agoAww I would have picked Roost. Then instead of Cargo, you could have Corvo and a whole bunch of bird names for the tools.
- aa_is_op 3y ago"All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy! " Did I miss some drama?
- randomsofr 3y agoyou did https://www.jntrnr.com/why-i-left-rust/ https://www.jntrnr.com/why-i-left-rust/
- bhouston 3y agoIs this comparable to the Nodejs ioJs split early in the history of node?
- arthurcolle 3y agoI propose that Crab differentiates itself by keeping `yeet` as the keyword instead of changing it later
- thomastjeffery 3y agoSeveral paragraphs of backstory, and not a single word describing the thing itself. I won't care why I'm reading about this until I can learn what I'm reading about!
- detrites 3y agoAs someone also unfamiliar, this exchange seemed to summarise it, unless someone else can offer correction or additional context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36128144 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36128144
- travisgriggs 3y agoMore of a Rust dabbler/observer at this point, but one thing I've never been a fan of is the actual name. It is neither pretentious or anti-pretentious. The forker missed an opportunity to at least improve that, instead choosing a name that probably mostly subliminally enforces their dissatisfaction with Rust governance itself. Might as well have called it SheldonsSpot or OffMyLawn. I would have riffed the rust thing: Oxide or something similar.
- golergka 3y agoAre least is not a very popular videogame.
- blastro 3y agowhy do so many things evolve into crabs?
- deafpolygon 3y agoThat's funny. Now do Go!
- theandrewbailey 3y ago> A community fork of a language named after a plant fungus. Huh, so that's what former manufacturing regions are named after. Here I was thinking that it referred to particular oxidized metals. \s
- edem 3y agoDo you remember io.js?
- firstlink 3y agoI wish the crablang people would make it a lot more clear how to contribute to crablang itself. Were I to make any future bugfixes etc. I'd prefer to submit them to crablang rather than deal with the other folks. As it's open source folks would be free to "upstream" should they so desire. Unfortunately you can't have something be both a long-term fork and also accept contributions, so the crablang people need to decide and then publicize that decision.
- shmerl 3y agoAnd the point of that is? Huge suspect is that the readme doesn't explain the reason for the fork.
- i_am_a_peasant 3y agoCraab people craaab people. Walk like crab, talk like people. Craaab people.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- shp0ngle 3y agoI looked in the github repo, and it seems the collective effort of all the 400+ commenters here is more effort than the authors gave to this “language”. Someone just forked a repo and put on some “statements”. Okay. There is no real effort behind this.
- lucidone 3y agoHaven't ever used Rust and probably won't. Regardless, the melodramatic cliquey "I'm leaving the project" bluster as of late reminds me of my 14 year old self on various vbulletin forums and grants me conviction avoiding adopting this language and its ecosystem. I prefer the tools I use for building businesses to be administered by adults.
- phkahler 3y ago>> the melodramatic cliquey "I'm leaving the project" bluster as of late... That may be good. It a narcissistic trait and they are leaving the project.
- spoiler 3y agoHonestly, the language and the community are mostly great. There's a few outliers that aggressively want to draw attention to themselves (which is inherently narcissistic). That's not something that's unique to Rust in particular, every community has those. Rust's is still relatively small given it's only had a big uptick of users Recently. It'll settle eventually; it always does. Also, I don't tend to interact or pay much attention to the bad apples in the community. So, I guess I'm just not that bothered by them. Ignoring them is the worst thing you can do to narcissists and idiots; it makes them go away to leech elsewhere. Whether it's Rust or Crab I am not particularly bothered; the technical side of the language are a boon in themselves.
- cies 3y agoSo what is administered by adults? JVM/Java? Well that has it's own share of drama (and businesses frowning upon the leadership of Oracle). For .NET/C# I cannot remember any drama, but maybe that's just MSFT controlling the PR of their project? The more something is governed in the open, the more we can see problems. To me that's a good thing. Compare Germany's govt to China's: Germany is certainly not as efficient, but it's transparency allows many to see it's inner workings are comment about it. I hope in the long run this transparency is what businesses prefer in an open source project.
- 3y ago
- pengaru 3y agoAccording to github rust has been forked 10,819 times... https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/forks https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/forks
- dijit 3y agoNot a useful metric as making a Pull Request requires making a private fork.
- Zuiii 3y agoI'll gladly use this if they make an incompatible change with upstream and offer their own offline installers.
- Zuiii 3y agoJust checked. They satisfy neither of these requirements.
- meatjuice 3y agoThis reminds me of Audacity telemetry incident
- Niklashallgren 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- aigoochamna 3y agoMeh, if they forked they should have called it "iron oxide" or "FeO" or something. Lost opportunity...