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MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

• nurettin 3y ago
  > Web links from Azure Active Directory (AAD) accounts and Microsoft (MSA) accounts in the Outlook for Windows app will open in Microsoft Edge in a single view showing the opened link side-by-side with the email it came from This looks like a simple embedded browser feature blown out of proportion. You can probably ctrl-click the link to open in whatever browser you've configured as default in a new window.
• mcenedella 3y ago
  It’s sad and foolish. Strong-arming users into a product is a 1990s playbook, wholly out of step with modern end user expectations. Playing rough in the sandbox hurts all their products. See what’s happened to Bing since they won’t let you use it in Safari or Chrome.
• nightpaws 3y ago
  Starting to think MSFT have completely forgotten the days of the browser choice button. Wonder when we'll see that again...
  • newjersey 3y ago
    I just saw some clickbait article this week that said by some metric I don't remember, desktop safari moved to number two (presumably number one is Google Chrome) beating Microsoft Edge. I remember how reaction was relatively swift with Apple and book publishers' illegal collusion even though Apple was not a major player yet, or maybe I am just wrong on this which is possible, I didn't follow the news closely. In any case, I think Microsoft is doing a fine job by itself getting people turned off on edge by adding all sorts of bloatware that I doubt people will use edge as their only web browser.
    • robocat 3y ago
      https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/02/safari-overtakes-edge-popular-browsers/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/02/safari-overtakes-edge-p... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35786080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35786080
• chakintosh 3y ago
  Microsoft is shoving their software down people's throats with impunity. Just yesterday I had to install VS Code for a Homebridge integration, and out of nowhere they slapped a Bing search bar bang in the middle of the desktop.
  • meindnoch 3y ago
    [flagged]
    • chakintosh 3y ago
      I usually go overboard with uninstalling anything related to Microsoft on my Windows installs (bar the OS obviously), but this time, I didn't have a say, the plugin required that.
  • croes 3y ago
    Why not VS Codium?
    • lifty 3y ago
      Is there any usability difference between the two?
      • smcl 3y ago
        There was something about some extensions (for debugging?) not working in Codium
      • npteljes 3y ago
        VS Codium and other forks don't (maybe can't) use the official VSCode extension market. Because a lot of goodness, like the ability to refactor and debug PHP, is coming from the extensions and the extension ecosystem, it can be a big deal.
        • zelphirkalt 3y ago
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• rvz 3y ago
  Because they can do that. No surprises there and as I said before, Microsoft has not 'changed' as the methods are different but the strategy has always been the same and they have gotten very clever over the decades. As long as their stock goes up, techies are always last place.
• dustedcodes 3y ago
  I have no skin in the game, but even I am starting to think the obvious thing here: Apple and Google own the entire mobile OS market. They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. But they don't. So far they were competing by making their own products better. Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile they want to be to its competitors and users, because two people can play this game. I don't get Microsoft, have they no pride or desire to become a great company? Have they just become content to be an old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use?
  • froggit 3y ago
    >Have they just become content to be an old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use? Change that from a question to a statement and it becomes one of the better single sentence summaries of the windows 11 design methodology.
  • 3np 3y ago
    Not to give Microsoft an out here but really? The equivalent for this on iOS or Android would be allowing opening links in a different browser and web view engine. The equivalent Microsoft apps on mobile OSs aren't degraded - they aren't even allowed to exist in the first place. Microsoft is bringing the desktop experience in line with mobile here. Doesn't make it less terrible but contrasting Apple and Google as better actors in this sense is an odd take.
    • IceWreck 3y ago
      Microsoft apps exist on Android and they're not forced to open links in Chrome on Android. If the user chooses, they can open on Microsoft Edge on Android. The user can set their own browser preference - and Google doesn't force them. Apple doesn't allow other browser engines but it's on them. None of these bug tech corps are in the right here, but MS is being more anti-competitive than most.
• sporkle-feet 3y ago
  Isn't this just the same as what Apple does? Why is there outrage about one but not the other? (genuine question)
  • supriyo-biswas 3y ago
    The only instance of Apple doing that I’m aware of is the “Search for (term)” in the terminal’s right click menu always defaulting to Safari. In every other instance, they’ve respected the defaults. Microsoft on the other hands seems to have no boundaries, going as far as injecting ads on Chrome’s homepage[1] promoting their browser. [1] https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-is-now-injecting-full-size-ads-on-chrome-website-to-make-you-stay-on-edge/ https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-is-now-injecting-full-...
    • peoplefromibiza 3y ago
      > The only instance of Apple doing that I’m aware of is Not allowing alternative browsers on their most successful platform: iOS also: - EU forced Apple to use USB-C like everybody else - EU is forcing Apple to allow side loading of apps Apple is one of the worst offenders ever when it's about vendor lock in
      • CrampusDestrus 3y ago
        You might be a few years out of date https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT211336 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT211336
        • peoplefromibiza 3y ago
          that's not what you think it is. Alternative browser engines are still disallowed. They are a skin on Apple's Webkit see: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/07/mozilla_google_apple_webkit/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/07/mozilla_google_apple_...
          • 3y ago
• josefresco 3y ago
  I don't get the anger, at this point Edge is interchangeable with Chrome. The only thing I "miss" are my saved password and extensions which can be easily imported. Complaining online is an international pastime though.
  • AraceliHarker 3y ago
    For example, Bing Chat is not available without using Edge, right?
    • josefresco 3y ago
      I have no problems with MS making Bing Chat a "feature" of Edge.
  • wheybags 3y ago
    It's not about the quality of the browser. The user has a setting to choose which browser to use, and they are disregarding it for their own convenience. It's anti-consumer and anti-competitive.
    • josefresco 3y ago
      I agree, it's just "more of the same" for me and thankfully Edge isn't terrible like IE 6x etc.
  • thomond 3y ago
    > at this point Edge is interchangeable with Chrome Then why would MSFT release Edge at all? maybe they should default to Chrome.
    • josefresco 3y ago
      Why does Google develop Chrome? Why not just support Chromium?
  • Hamuko 3y ago
    >Edge is interchangeable with Chrome Okay. What if I want to use Firefox though?
• rmm 3y ago
  What’s crazy is that edge is actually a really good browser. Some of the features they have wacked on top of chromium are awesome. Especially when deploying it for a small business. It allows for easy integration with azure, profile syncing etc.
  • Findecanor 3y ago
    Sure, but for individual users business features things don't matter, it is users that need choice. Myself, I just want a browser that doesn't close multiple tabs when I want to close just one when tapping on a touch screen. That is one thing with Edge that irritates me to high hell, and a reason for me to switch.
  • taspeotis 3y ago
    Used to be good but they’ve crapped it up with shit like coupons, follow this creator (what the fuck?), the “smart” text selection menu and “rich” link copying. I don’t set up a new Edge profile often but I have to remember to turn off like 5 or 6 things each time to make it somewhat usable.
    • nazgulsenpai 3y ago
      I'm forced to use Edge on work PC and that context menu when selecting text is wildly unpredictable -- sometimes the only "Search for (selected text)" is Search Bing Sidebar. And its slow as molasses if you ever make the mistake of clicking it.
      • taspeotis 3y ago
        Turn it off from the … menu that pops up near it
  • mkoubaa 3y ago
    The last thing I want from a browser these days is more features
  • supriyo-biswas 3y ago
• summm 3y ago
  Good! This needs to go on, and it needs to hurt even more. This is what you will get for making yourselves dependent on a single monopolistic vendor. Just continue laughing about the Year of Linux on Desktops, and suffer.
• nstart 3y ago
  Urgh. Did they forget the lessons of the Ballmer era that forcing choices doesn’t give more usage. It’s making sure you meet people’s choices where they are. That was the big change that seemed to be in the air when Satya took over. Not entirely sure what is happening here.
  • wkat4242 3y ago
    It does give more usage by their own measurements so some internal VP gets to post themselves on the back and cash some bonus. While deprecating the image of the company overall.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• meindnoch 3y ago
  Don't worry webdevs, it's still Chromium! Just the way you wanted :-)
• Hamuko 3y ago
  Have I traveled between universes to a world where Microsoft hasn't faced an anti-trust judgement against them over Internet browsers? How does Microsoft think that they can get away with all of this shit?
  • nazgulsenpai 3y ago
    Sadly, because they're getting away with all this shit.
  • ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    > How does Microsoft think that they can get away with all of this shit? People keep buying it, so they can get away with almost anything.
• isanjay 3y ago
  I am thankful that I don't use Windows at home anymore. While I use Fedora, I believe most frustrated people will look to Apple ecosystem.
  • acomjean 3y ago
    Been using Linux more and more. Linux tends to have less of this nonsense and respects the user more.
    • isanjay 3y ago
      I would say Linux doesn't have this type of nonsense at all.
      • spaniard89277 3y ago
        Mmm, there's some of this stuff in Ubuntu, forcing people to use snaps.
        • reaperducer 3y ago
          Ubuntu also displays an advertisement every time I log in: Get cloud support with Ubuntu Advantage Cloud Guest: http://www.ubuntu.com/business/services/cloud * Introducing Expanded Security Maintenance for Applications. Receive updates to over 25,000 software packages with your Ubuntu Pro subscription. Free for personal use. https://ubuntu.com/pro Expanded Security Maintenance for Applications is not enabled.
        • isanjay 3y ago
          My bad forgot about Ubuntu.
        • reportgunner 3y ago
          Isn't ubuntu Microsoft ?
      • unstuck3958 3y ago
• nubinetwork 3y ago
  > IT admins are angry Are they really? We dumped chrome for edge a year ago at the least...
• narenkeshav 3y ago
  Nothing to be surprised. So typical of MSFT.
• isanjay 3y ago
  If shit hits the fan and Microsoft gets sued for Anti Competitive behaviour (again) I suspect their main defence would be: Google doesn't even let users uninstall their apps and apple doesn't even let users install other browser.
  • dubcanada 3y ago
    By uninstall their apps I assume you mean play service? In which case you can you just need root. Same as you can’t uninstall core Microsoft services. Apple not allowing other browsers is a bit much…
    • isanjay 3y ago
      I can't uninstall Google apps in my Android phone YouTube, Gmail etc.
      • aembleton 3y ago
        Have you rooted it?
        • isanjay 3y ago
          No but rooting is not straight forward is it ?
        • makeitdouble 3y ago
          Rooting a phone will lock you out of most financial and secure NFC applications. It can be a no brainer depending on your life style (I mean, some people are trying to get back to dumb phones, so why not), I personally see it as big nope.
    • worrycue 3y ago
      > Apple not allowing other browsers is a bit much… Apple is paranoid about being dependent on other companies. If Chrome becomes a "must have" Google will have leverage over them by threatening to pull Chrome from the iPhone. They have been burned badly before: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt Instead of letting that happen, they use the iPhone's market share to push an alternative they control and pressure developers to support it (with its market share). Google is already using such tactics against Android phone makers. They keep them in line by threatening to not license them their services.
• blazespin 3y ago
  Verge seems to be only one covering this. Any sysadmins here with 1st hand experience with the change?
• Pulz 3y ago
  I'm an IT Admin with 15+ sites across my country. I'm not angry about this change. Myself and most of the people I've networked with either have or are transitioning away from other browsers, towards Edge. As a browser, it's fine. It has good PDF viewing/editing features, performant and works well with organisational SSO.
  • donbrae 3y ago
    Does that mean you ban users from using browsers that are not Edge?
    • Pulz 3y ago
      No.
  • Already__Taken 3y ago
    yeh, now maybe. Ruining something that works fine can't end poorly.
  • Donckele 3y ago
    Are you serious? The best /useful things for you are PDFs and SSO? Both of these features are not what makes a web browser super duper. PDF viewing is available in all major browsers. <rant> SSO works in all web browsers - unless you’re using Windows XP as your enterprise cloud server running java and oracle and your asp.net web app requires a microsoft browser running in internet explorer legacy mode. </rant>
    • Pulz 3y ago
      I stated two things I like about it over it's competitors, I didn't brand them as the best or most important features on offer. I specifically stated PDF editing, not just viewing PDF files. SSO works better on Edge in a work environment, mainly as it connects to the Windows profile. This means that I do not need to make changes to additional browsers or have end users struggling to sign in to various applications. Specifically with Edge, I can simply provide each user profile a folder with shortcuts to the likes of email quarantine, support, Outlook etcetera and they will either see their account listed or only need to enter their email address. Coupled with appropriate training, this has cut down on users signing into Microsoft login pages that have been designed to look like the legitimate organisation using logo's and other branding. When in doubt, the users can visit the shortcut provided to them.
• ranting-moth 3y ago
  So much for the "but Microsoft is a new company now". Remember "Microsoft loves open source" phrase from just few years ago? Guess what, Ike also loved Tina.
  • croes 3y ago
    They love OpenSource to train Copilot.
  • alkonaut 3y ago
    I always saw it as Microsoft is clearly two (or more) companies now. Some of those companies are very much what Microsoft was always like. Some others aren't at all like microsoft in anything but name.
    • tommica 3y ago
      That might not be a good way to look at it, there might be some people that want to just deliver some good products, but the company itself is not something that should be given the benefit because of those few employees. Microsoft == Microsoft
    • capableweb 3y ago
      That might be a useful point of view if you happen to work at GitHub and you don't really want to wake up to the fact that you actually work for Microsoft now. But for anyone else, everything Microsoft owns is Microsoft, and they'll use the products and properties they owned to further the goal of Microsoft, which is maximizing shareholder profits, just like any other public company.
      • worrycue 3y ago
        > just like any other public company Except way more mercenary. Companies compete like boxers in a ring. You win some, you lose some. MS is the boxer who would hit below the belt if no one is looking and will try to main/kill you if they can. https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• alkonaut 3y ago
  I recently noticed I can only browse some parts of our company infra on Azure (e.g. Azure Devops) via Edge on iOS too. So I have to use that browser for some specific sites while I use Safari for everything else.
• oaiey 3y ago
  Am I the only one who sees the technical aspect here: They literally write in this article that this is about embedding web pages next to the chat/email/whatever. That means in-memory over contracted hosting api etc. When I would own, e.g. MS Teams or Outlook, the hell I would love to have a dependency on the internal Firefox hosting API which can break any other day (just a example ... firefox is cool) or introducing unwanted side behavior. Looking at the bigger M365 vision of embedding snippets of documents/chats/stuff-from-the-graph into every other asset. Having there a free-variable like a third party browser will make this a horrible thing to manage. Same also goes for App Store deploy to desktop: a stable html/css/js SDK is needed there as well. I would absolutely hate Microsoft's monopolistic behavior, but this thing, IMHO, it is not. There are better example (e.g. what they do with VS Code or the .NET Debugger/HotReload) then this concrete case.
  • maxerickson 3y ago
    Aren't you sort of saying that it's okay because they have a vision where you use their products for everything? Hard to tickle that out from antitrust, no? The worst thing about the integration is that their safelink checker thing is slow as hell.
  • grishka 3y ago
    How about only enabling this functionality when Edge is the user's default browser? We somehow managed without it for several decades. Force-opening another browser despite user-configured defaults is utterly disrespectful to the user. You're trying to frame it as something helpful but it's not helpful in any way whatsoever. It interferes with the user getting their job done using a tool you made.
  • thatnerdyguy 3y ago
    This is the correct take that should be at the top. They aren't opening the links in Edge, they are opening the links in an embedded window implemented using Edge.
    • lozenge 3y ago
      It's not an embedded window.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• jve 3y ago
  This experience needs more clarification on how it works. So if I single click a link it won't open a browser but render content within Outlook App? Okay, what happens if I middle click? I should preferably get default browser. As to having Edge WebView2 engine in Outlook and no other - well, that is understandable [1]. Albeit Internet Explorer and Edge Legacy are still used by addins [2]. Actually it was about time to ditch the old IE Trident engine from Outlook and Office apps. On Mac it uses Safari with WKWebView[2] So is this outrage caused by just introducing a feature where links open within app and it happens to use whatever rendering engine is there for that purpose? [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployoffice/webview2-install https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/deployoffice/webview2-inst... [2] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/dev/add-ins/concepts/browsers-used-by-office-web-add-ins https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/dev/add-ins/concept... Edit: I re-read the announcment and it is actually something different than an engine - yeah, opens in Edge and presumably shows your email in Edge Sidebar. So nothing to do with outlook rendering engines.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• skilled 3y ago
  The problem Microsoft is creating for itself is that with these kind of antics, they will _never_ land any developers using their browser. That's hundreds of millions of users they're spitting in the face directly. Second, them constantly being in the news about peddling the Bing search engine also doesn't help. Most people like and prefer Google (and when I say most, I mean the 95% percentile), so if they read news like, "Microsoft is showing Bing ads on Google pages" - you can rest assured nobody is going to use Edge because at the back of they minds they will be thinking, "Hmm, does this mean my Google experience will be disturbed with this browser?". I think I lost some gray matter just typing that out and reflecting on how stupid Microsoft is.
  • Spivak 3y ago
    > they will _never_ land any developers using their browser I honestly don't think they care. They get the benefit of all the work devs do to support Chrome for free and get the much more lucrative "regular user" market.
  • hnbad 3y ago
    Apparently I'm not a developer as I've been using the new Edge ever since moving to Windows a few years ago when WSL came around. It's actually a remarkably good browser and at this point I prefer it over Chrome (in part because I'm already using Windows so Microsoft telemetry is a given and Google's is extra). It is however a shame that Microsoft keeps insisting to shoot itself in the foot. There's a very developer-friendly and professional and sleek side of Microsoft that is constantly sabotaged by the "used car salesman" side of the company that insists on adding noise like Microsoft Rewards to Edge or Candy Crush to Start.
• jarym 3y ago
  IT admins have only themselves to blame for choosing Teams in the first place. Yes, it is included in O365 and it makes it a no-brainer as far as additional costs and things go. But then there's the risk that Microsoft leverage their captive and lazy market to foist other undesirable things on users... like this. And crappy news / adverts in Windows 11's 'start menu' replacement. Ready to get voted down on this, but my view is pretty robust: no need to self-host EVERYTHING but avoiding vendor lock-in and maintaining independence is valuable. It is a lesson that corporate IT admins seem to forget time and time again.
  • roydivision 3y ago
    In my experience, in any company larger than 500 people at least, the IT admin has little say in the matter. These sorts of decisions are taken higher up, and the admin just has to live with it.
    • dijit 3y ago
      Hell, my company is just 35 people and I'm head of all things tech (CTO) and even I can't get Microsoft out of the company. It works "good enough" and change is really hard for many people.
      • codepoet80 3y ago
        Same in a 7 person company. Got voted down in favor of Teams because the "learning curve" of anything else wasn't worth their time. This despite the confusing and ridiculous UX of Teams.
        • JumpCrisscross 3y ago
          > because the "learning curve" of anything else wasn't worth their time As someone on the other side of the divide who hates these products, this is accurate. A non-standard product is a non-starter in most fields unless it has a killer advantage.
• username3 3y ago
  Is everyone misreading the article? The new policy is to ignore your default browser from Outlook and Teams and open Edge. There is an option to turn off this policy to use your default browser. > Microsoft 365 Enterprise IT admins will be able to alter the policy, but those on Microsoft 365 for business will have to manage this change on individual machines.
  • aqme28 3y ago
    > There is an option to turn off this policy to use your default browser. They should add a new option to ignore this one that is also turned on by default. Default overrides all the way down.
  • dmichulke 3y ago
    In Teams, there is also an option to switch off notifications and another one to use Windows notifications. Guess which ones of the two don't do shit. Here's a hint: I'm using Teams via browser to get rid of notifications.
  • 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
    > There is an option to turn off this policy to use your default browser. First time playing this game? Here's how it works: 1) Change the default behavior, but have the old behavior be an option 2) ~Everybody switches to the new behavior 3) Telemetry says ~nobody uses the old behavior, so remove the option in order to "streamline the experience"
    • pavon 3y ago
      1b) Revert the setting every time there is a system update.
• e12e 3y ago
  This is an expected normalization of html email and the mostly-client-side-apps; Outlook (the desktop app) already renders the html email in a MS rendering engine (Edge? I don't know). If the email has a button (or a link) - i think it makes sense that the click event shows up "in" the mail client. I hate html email - but the last 20 years have been all about siloing hypertext apps in email systems - proprietary protocols (exchange, Gmail web - with IMAP/SMTP/pop3 as secondary citizens). This just a natural continuation. If you want to escape use a real MUA - and maybe a real mail provider. Unfortunately if you want groupware - there's no proper open solution (but props to Fastmail for at least trying - but until there are good independent desktop/mobile/console apps with JMAP support - and the equivalent for shared booking and calendar) - it's pretty much either proprietary crapware, or open solutions without feature parity.
  • Forge36 3y ago
    Outlook renders the HTML in word. (It's a custom rendering engine)
    • e12e 3y ago
      I swear you can't make this shit up (i actually knew that, but the trauma made me forget). Thanks for pointing it out.
  • reaperducer 3y ago
    This is an expected normalization of html email I have two Macs running Microsoft Outlook. One is running a version several years behind the current one. The old machine can send e-mail as plain text. The one running the current Microsoft Outlook doesn't have that option, or a way to enable it that I've been able to find.
    • e12e 3y ago
      I recently changed to macOS, and macOS Outlook is a bit of a puzzle. On one hand an admission that the web app isn't good enough, on the other... It's not quite a proper port of the windows version? Thankfully i write mostly code and documentation - so far i don't have to care that 2023 Outlook is worse than 2003 Pine. On the other hand there's a shared calendar.
• npteljes 3y ago
  The PWA version of Teams also doesn't open links in the default browser. Very annoying having to right click, copy, right click, paste and go for every single one of them.
• can16358p 3y ago
  The more childish MSFT plays, the more I love remembering ditching almost anything from Microsoft and never recommending anything Microsoft (other than Vscode) to anyone ever again. The more they act bizzare like this, the more they deserve to lose it all.
• pjmlp 3y ago
  Whatever WinDev/DevDiv earns in developer points, marketing and sales kill it.
• thih9 3y ago
  > To help increase productivity while working online, web links from Azure Active Directory (AAD) accounts and Microsoft (MSA) accounts in the Outlook for Windows app will open in Microsoft Edge in a single view showing the opened link side-by-side with the email it came from. What is single view? Does anyone have a screenshot or a screencast of that UX in action?
• cmsonger 3y ago
  They are going to make me have a second computer. One for gaming. One more browsing. I'll just never open anything but Steam on my windows computer. Given how small and cheap Linux boxes can be, I guess I'll get on this pronto.
  • eep_social 3y ago
    Just buy a Steam Deck and run Steam on that?
• apexalpha 3y ago
  I see Microsoft is again turning to the Foie Gras method of increasing engagement.
  • eYrKEC2 3y ago
    That's an amazing metaphor.
• tyingq 3y ago
  I wonder if MSEdgeRedirect will work around this... https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect https://github.com/rcmaehl/MSEdgeRedirect
• Cort3z 3y ago
  Wasn't MS sued by the EU some time ago for doing something similar. Have they not learned?
  • capableweb 3y ago
    The knowledge gained from cases like that is never "We'll never do anything like it again" but "We pushed too hard, next time we need to push, but not as much". They're trying to find the limit for what they can do, so they can be right next to the limit. If they get fined, they try to correct by either finding a different way of doing the same thing, or doing something just enough to not get fined.
  • cultureswitch 3y ago
    The only way for a company this size to learn anything from a fine is to bankrupt the company.
• nickjj 3y ago
  Interesting timing. 2 days ago a place I'm at switched us from Google mail + calendar + meet to Microsoft outlook + calendar + teams. I almost can't believe at how good Google's suite of tools are compared to Microsoft. I never used any of MS' office tools until a few days ago. Outlook's web app doesn't even let you click into an email to mark it as read. You have to explicitly click the mark as read button. It also doesn't intuitively support filters with emails that have + in their name (each email ends up being unique instead of Google doing the more expected thing of letting the filter match all + variants). It also doesn't update its title bar with a count of emails in your inbox. That's things I discovered after using it for about 10 minutes. Microsoft's calendar is designed so poorly, there's so many quality of life things that aren't there vs Google. There's too many to list but the biggest one is not being able to see the calendar details of team mates when inviting them to an event. All you see is a blocked out amount of time, you can't see their exact schedules even if they shared their calendar with you. This removes a huge human element to scheduling meetings because often times I'll avoid scheduling meetings when folks are just getting out of a long meeting, or I'll buffer it by 15-30 minutes depending on who is doing what beforehand. I'm not not looking forward to the day when we'll need to use all of MS' tools to replace Google docs + spreadsheet and Slack.
  • HeavyStorm 3y ago
    Agree with some of the points, but why would the + in the email name be considered anything else than part of the name? This is a Gmail feature, not part of any RFC that I know of...or are you talking about something else, perhaps?
  • themoop 3y ago
    I think most things you describe are just getting used to product difference / configuration options. Clicking an email definitely marks it as read. The calendar schedule not being revealed is a just a privacy option, each person must opt-in to share the exact meeting details. Having used both gsuite and office I find that they both get job done fairly well
    • nickjj 3y ago
• dathinab 3y ago
  So anyone still thinking MS is now all good and it's not an issue that it own github + vscode + a endless list of other things relevant for especially smaller development companies? Microsoft will do whats best for them. Temporary this includes embrace open source to some degree and being reasonable nice to Linux. For example WSL can help with trying out Linux and help cross platform devs on Windows to develop for Linux which can help with a to Linux migration. But it removes the main reasons why a lot of students, scientists and server devs had to use it. So for now it's net-good for them, which can be good for Linux, too. But what will happen if it again is more profitable for MS to not act nice? How long will it then take to WSL to have features in a way which make it likely software only works on WSL Linux and maybe Azur servers but won't be available on normal distros. How long until GitHub will have some small but very usefull features which happen to only be available in some Windows GitHub client pushing companies to require Windows first desktop systems? How long until they will influence legislation around computer security in a way which have effects like being practical impossible for normal desktop Linux clients or require some proprietary Linux core component due to a combination of legislation and patents, which distributions for Azur or Google cloud surely will have for free, but the competition? Honestly I hope so long that you could say never. But I believe open source and free desktops are as much threatened by MS today as many years ago when people aware about it often treated MS as a evil company for good reasons. But today it's in a way more roundabout, very subtle very hard to pin down way. This gives them the chance to succeed where they failed before, but us the chance to both profit from them and while preventing them from succeeding. Optimally leading to some form of stalemate where both are profiting from each other.
  • ixwt 3y ago
    Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.
  • kps 3y ago
    I suspect VSCode is a baited hook. Get enough developers dependent on it, then degrade it on Linux, and offer WSL as close enough to have people switch their OS rather than their editor. With developers on Windows, cloud follows.
• rozab 3y ago
  The Google Chat desktop app (which is really just a chrome instance, but this is obscured from the user) only opens links in Chrome and ignores the system default. It's had this behaviour forever.
• yrro 3y ago
  Oh, I thought this was a decision made by my IT department.
• albertopv 3y ago
  My respect for Satya Nadella is decreasing every day
• lopkeny12ko 3y ago
  I don't like MSFT as much as anyone else but this does feel like a misattribution of blame. On Linux, the "default web browser" is part of the XDG specification and available under the settings key `default-web-browser`. In the absence of such a standard at the DE level in Windows, it seems reasonable to me that developers would have to maintain a hardcoded candidate list of web browsers and their likely executable paths in the filesystem. And yes, of course MSFT would put Edge on the top of this search list, the same Apple would do Safari, or Google would do Chrome.
  • Rhedox 3y ago
    Windows has a configurable default web browser too. If you click a link in any other application, it will open whatever browser you've set up as your default in the system settings. Microsoft just went out of their way to explicitly always open Edge.
  • stevehawk 3y ago
    I know it's hard for people to take the time to read the article when they could just be typing inaccurate responses.. but from the article: > While this won’t affect the default browser setting in Windows, it’s yet another part of Microsoft 365 and Windows that totally ignores your default browser choice for links. Microsoft already does this with the Widgets system in Windows 11 and even the search experience, where you’ll be forced into Edge if you click a link even if you have another browser set as default. The issue is that O365 is going to launch the link within the app (say Outlook) which is going to be running it on Edge, which lets them completely ignore whatever browser you would rather be using. It's like every app on iOS that is shipping with a safari wrapper so it doesn't have to actually launch safari and give up its snooping abilities.
  • Zeratoss 3y ago
    On Android Microsoft Outlook refused to open links in Chrome or Firefox and made me install Edge from the Playstore. I couldn't even copy the links to paste them manually, as my organization disabled this. This is not OK.
• perlgeek 3y ago
  I wonder what the EU's antitrust regulators have to say about this one. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission#Related_investigations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission#... for previous clashes on related matters
• PaulHoule 3y ago
  … and boy they sure want regulators to let them merge with whoever they want to. They should show a little humility.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• cultureswitch 3y ago
  Is there a technical solution? Can't you replace your Edge executable by a hardlink to your preferred browser?
• mattferderer 3y ago
  If Microsoft focused more on improving their browser & marketing it to every day people (outside of cramming ads in their OS) they might not need such dark patterns. Honestly, I like Edge more than Firefox & Chrome. The only thing I find missing is better default privacy features that Brave offers. I imagine you can get them with an extension. The Read Aloud & reader modes of Edge are fantastic. A majority of the rest is at par with Firefox & Chrome.
• felvid 3y ago
  I wonder what if other big companies invest in desktop Linux (aimed at regular users) to increase its adoption and therefore competition in the market. It seems to be worth it.
• darthrupert 3y ago
  Microsoft hasn't improved their company culture at all in the 30 years. Personally, I think they are a toxic entity and they should slowly vanish from the scene. Then again, every other large entity in this field is toxic as well in some form or other...
• henry2023 3y ago
  Yikes
• Pbhaskal 3y ago
  All search with hyperlinks from windows button opens in edge even though Firefox being the default browser in my machine.
• cma 3y ago
  Google does this too for their homescreen recommendation feed on android, even if your system browser is set to firefox, the links open in Chrome views (doesn't happen for Gmail and other apps).
• VBprogrammer 3y ago
  Anyone tried installing Chrome on Windows recently? I got at least 3 "warnings" about how I didn't need chrome when I could just use Edge. Honestly, I imagine a lot of people who are less competent with computers just assume they are doing something wrong and give up.
  • klabb3 3y ago
    Regulators need to slap these companies in the fingers again for these ugly practices, this time hard as hell. Otherwise it’s just gonna get worse.
    • RoyGBivCap 3y ago
      The fact that they didn't in the '90s demonstrated to me that the regulators are basically toothless (worthless) in my opinion.
• angelomerte 3y ago
  [flagged]
• alberth 3y ago
  I think this is being wrongly frame. This functionality is actually needed in highly regulated industries like banking or government. Which is, you need a way to secure how your employees are accessing information. And when everything is moving to becoming a cloud document (or document hosted on the cloud), not being able to have control over the browser in which that information is viewed with is a huge threat vector. So I totally understand why they have to ability to launch all links with Edge, and then Edge have built in privacy controls. So if you're an organization that need these higher level security controls, this is actually what you want. What the article doesn't make clear is, is Microsoft actually defaulting to this to all customers.
  • NicuCalcea 3y ago
    Then banks should just prevent employees from installing browsers they didn't approve. There is no doubt in my mind that MS did this purely to push Edge.
  • detaro 3y ago
    If you are such an organization and want to force people to use Edge, you don't install other browsers and make Edge the default, instead of doctoring with every app that can contain links for it to use Edge.
  • snoopen 3y ago
    No, it's absolutely the right framing. This isn't a setting that allows admins to force a browser for security. This is obviously about MS trying to force the uptake of Edge and nothing more.
    • alberth 3y ago
      Let's compare this to Google Workspace. Google Workspace functionality is only fully supports Google Chrome. Google Workspace doesn't support a number of key features on Firefox, Safari & Edge - as denoted below. https://support.google.com/a/answer/33864?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/answer/33864?hl=en So how is what Microsoft is doing, different? They are only fully supporting Microsoft Edge (much like how Google only supports their own browser)
• dschuetz 3y ago
  Alienating the entire customer base, that's the Microsoft I know!
• lostmsu 3y ago
  I am starting to think the monopolistic behavior like this should get rewarded with jail time for all involved. Perhaps that would change their thinking.
• bastard_op 3y ago
  Apparently everyone forgot about the Internet Explorer vs Netscape debacle, they're essentially doing the same thing again, trying to claw back their relevance in the browser world. This sort of behavior is exactly what Sony should present to the EU how Microsoft handles anti-competetive behavior.
• layer8 3y ago
  I’m guessing that Microsoft is unhappy that Edge still hasn’t reached the same market share that IE still had when the first Edge version was released in 2015. The strategy of breaking away from the seemingly tainted “Internet Explorer” branding didn’t quite work out.
• nabilhat 3y ago
  Windows is not unhackable. This one's easy. Deleting all instances of the msedge executable does not break Windows. Don't depend on settings, they're not reliable or comprehensive, and it's far more work to track them all down and maintain their value than it is to simply delete the problem. Some "features" will stop working. The article's example is one of many. Windows will now use your chosen applications if it can, or simply not if the only point was to push Edge. If you're stuck on Windows and have access to delete things from %programfiles% (and elsewhere), this is a zero risk thing to try! Every update reinstalls Edge, so the next time you have an update queued, delete Edge. If you don't like it, run the update and you're back to Edge Everywhere.
  • manuelabeledo 3y ago
    Now do this, but at scale. I cannot fathom the number of support requests coming in as soon as some features stop working, in a fleet of hundreds. Dealing with thousands is a great recipe for disaster.
    • user3939382 3y ago
      This is precisely what login scripts and GPO is designed for. Most people don't realize Windows is actually primarily designed as a corporate OS, home users are an afterthought. BYOD is a different story, but there are scenarios with thousands of desktops (i.e. VDI) where these kinds of changes are trivial.
      • manuelabeledo 3y ago
        None of this prevents users from complaining about broken features.
        • user3939382 3y ago
          It does because if you test your policies and scripts it shouldn't be broken. None of this negates the fact that we shouldn't have to be writing hacks to counteract MS's dark pattern games in the first place.
• swamp40 3y ago
  The pdf hijacking drives me crazy daily. They must have put an entire team on ways to re-enable Edge as default. And I'll bet they have some crazy logic to justify their hijacking. "Oh, you opened Outlook, that must mean you want all your pdfs opened in Edge again!"
• hospitalJail 3y ago
  When trying to get GPT Bing, I let Microsoft set the defaults like they insisted. It was such an awful experience. >desktop ads >Edge opens, edge ads >Bing default browser, ads >start menu ads More on their products: >Sharepoint, 3 different versions, terrible documentation. Impossible to develop for when you have forum posts describing different software with the same name. >Power Automate, No I don't want drag and drop. Never ever. Further, we did do the drag and drop, only to run into issues and have to trick the software into showing some hidden ID that we could later copypaste. They even tease you with the actual code under the hood. I want to add a new line character, so easy in programming, (seems) impossible in power automate. I have decided its urgent to make the full transition to Linux. Microsoft constantly seems to be fine with a terrible user experience. They are a giant. They remind me of Apple with their marketing/sales first mentality. EDIT: (warning rage) Somehow edge opened up again. I lost my mind. I spent 5 minutes trying to uninstall without typing in some obscenely long version number. Nope. Impossible. Serious FU to M$.
  • lxgr 3y ago
    I also recently installed Edge (on macOS) to give BinGPT a try and almost couldn't believe what I saw. Ads, coupons, rewards everywhere... It truly felt like being transported to the darkest times of the late 90s/early 2000s, with multiple adware toolbars cluttering the IE user interface.
    • hospitalJail 3y ago
      This was their opportunity to drag people away from Chrome and Google search, I remember the craze of people making jokes about the death of google and how they are trying edge/Bing. Then they shot themselves in the foot with ads.
    • AlexandrB 3y ago
      Anyone remember "Signature Edition" PCs[1] that would ship without vendor crapware? I can't tell if this was Microsoft trying to make room for their own crapware or they just gave up on this idea and decided "if you can't beat them, join them". [1] https://www.maketecheasier.com/microsoft-windows-10-signature-edition/ https://www.maketecheasier.com/microsoft-windows-10-signatur...
• stainablesteel 3y ago
  i'd love to work at a place that has KDE installed as a default, even people with zero linux experience wouldn't have any problem picking it up
• jbverschoor 3y ago
  Ahhh MS became M$ again.
• cdme 3y ago
  I've never understood why so many folks have been fine while they quietly gobbled up large parts of modern dev toolchains given their history.
  • yoyohello13 3y ago
    Because ease of use trumps all. People don't care about 'ethics' as long as they can install VSCode extensions with one click. Whatever you say about Microsoft their VSCode ecosystem is easy to use so people will use it and defend to the death their laziness under the guise of "My job is to provide value, not use my brain."
• aceazzameen 3y ago
  Windows 11 does this too, and it's infuriating. If you click a link in settings, it will only open in Edge. As a Firefox user, I'd like to keep Edge as an alternative to check websites with. But this shady nonsense makes me want to burn every last bit off my system.
  • reportgunner 3y ago
    Can you replace the edge executable with a symlink or a copy of your preferred browser ? A common trick we used to use back in the day was to rename the microsoft executables that we didn't want to start automatically, it silently failed and everything was fine until next batch of updates which detected this and fixed it.
• mxuribe 3y ago
  I can't believe i'm about to suggest this... But, why doesn't Firefox start trying to curry the favor of large enterprises? By this, i mean, that maybe firefox could make a campaign to reach out to enterprise on how good FF could be for the enterprise...In essence try to win the hearts and minds of both IT admins and their senior leaders in the enterprise!?! (Instead of doing all manner of distractive efforts that may not be core to FF's web browser.) Yes, i know there is the FireFox ESR edition which some enterporises use, and yes, this might mean that FF devs might need to build up some added features to specifically help enterprises better manage profiles for users, etc...but, at least, Mozilla won;t be trying to shove things like Edge down users' throats. At the very least it would help diverse things if more Windows OS installations at large enterprises were a healthy mix of Chrom, Edge, and Firefox... /end-of-rant
  • makeitdouble 3y ago
    Large enterprises means, the people deciding what goes on the work machines aren't the people using them. And they'll have incentives that are fundamentally different from their users (MS offering a bundle price for all their service will help them more than firefox being cheaper to administer for instance)
    • mxuribe 3y ago
      Dang it; good points!
• balls187 3y ago
  I dislike applications ignoring my preferences. Like on ios, opening a link from the youtube app asks if I want to open the link in Chrome, despite not having chrome on my phone. Or that links inside Google Calendar first hit a google url before going to the actual url (Outlook has the same nonsense).
• JohnFen 3y ago
  I guess my muscle memory of "right click->copy link" will truly serve me well now!
• zamadatix 3y ago
  Teams is just odd about wanting to do things in its bubble. For example if you click a pdf file it opens a preview. Then you click download button on the preview and you get a Teams specific notification (which has multiple layering and positioning issues compared to native notification) with a list of your recent downloads. Then you click the file and it opens a preview in teams again so you close than, go back to the downloads list, select to open it in a folder, then open the file and it actually opens in a real PDF reader. Bad enough in itself but that's only half of it. Instead of fix this behavior to just work the official path is to install a teams app for Adobe Acrobat that handles the redirection, but only for Acrobat. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoftteams/adobe-acrobat-pdf-viewer-teams https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoftteams/adobe-acrob...
• donohoe 3y ago
  While Apple is far from perfect, I have zero motivation to ever go back to Windows (or go work at a company that primarily uses MS tech) for reasons like this. Between these UX-hostile behaviors, ads embedded in the OS, the awful MSN news integration... it just baffles me that how much MS is sinking despite some rehabilitative moves a few years back. I'm not even mad, just (constantly) disappointed.
• CobrastanJorji 3y ago
  Is that EU "Microsoft must give users a choice between web browsers" court decision completely expired now, or does that perhaps only relate to the OS itself and not apps?
  • andylynch 3y ago
    That consent decree has expired (in 2011?! Im getting old).
• nnurmanov 3y ago
  It sometimes impossible open Gmail on Edge browser, it resets to HTML version and I can’t do anything. Last time I had to upgrade and restart Edge. Anyone has similar experience?
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• jug 3y ago
  It’s not by force because there is a new option in the latest Outlook but this is still a dirty move because MS could just as well have simply rolled with the system default browser rather than let key applications have their own setting that just happens to default to Edge... It’s obvious what Microsoft are doing here and how this new option is a preemptive defense.
  • Neil44 3y ago
    Yes it’s a passive aggressive way to get Edge’s numbers up. You have to take action to make it obey your previously stated preference.
• bigmattystyles 3y ago
  My outlook is opening email links in their built-in Windows Mail app - which to me is the epitome of dumb and the one time I want them to handle it...
• ezekiel68 3y ago
  It's shit like this, hackerverse. It's shit like this. This kind of behavior is why I (and many like me) will never consider Windows to be a legitimate alternate server platform or Visual Studio to be an alternative dev environment (perhaps only for coding a dedicated Win UI client). People walkin' around like the 1990s were ancient history. Well, here we go again.
• happytiger 3y ago
  You can't embrace open source, stand for freedom on the Internet, and simultaneously engage in dark patterns like this without destroying user trust. And trust with users is the currency of the 21st century as much as data is the new oil. Microsoft needs to get their brand straight and decide, once and for all, what they stand for. There was this incredible move towards open source, and embracing the modern web, and so many positive developments. I think myself, and many other technologists, were going, "Wait, is this is the same company that shoved IE down our throats for years and got sued for anti-competitive practices?" It was glorious, and shocking. All of that is now at risk so that some product manager can look good by driving enforced but entirely fake adoption of Edge — that should be nipped in the bud and a clear message sent that this era is over — from the top executives. Or I supposed they could do nothing, and then it truly is sending a clear message as well. But perhaps not the one Microsoft intends to send, or the one that would benefit the company in coming years in terms of staying inside the good graces they have managed to create.
  • sneak 3y ago
    A proprietary software company never makes a "move toward open source". Microsoft released some things with source simply to sell more proprietary software that does not respect user freedoms. Open source and free software is a philosophy and ideology. Microsoft is incompatible with it no matter what licenses they use. Microsoft never embraced open source. You can't claim that until and unless Windows is released with source as free software, which will Never Ever Happen.
    • m463 3y ago
      embrace -> embrace and extend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
    • geodel 3y ago
      > You can't claim that until and unless Windows is released with source as free software, which will Never Ever Happen. That would wouldn't change a thing even it happens. No one except Microsoft is going to be expert on 50 million lines of windows code and contribute meaningfully to it. Add to that contributor's licensing agreement, community behavior, sheer capacity to make API changes and get it accepted. It will be impossible to create alternate certified Windows distribution even if all source code was available.
• kernal 3y ago
  This isn't the first time Microsoft has tried to force users to use their products. Google should kneecap them by changing the Chromium license to prevent it from being used in commercial products without permission.
• efitz 3y ago
  I worked at Microsoft back in the day when we got anti-trusted for not removing IE from Windows. Seems like there’s a lack of institutional memory over there.
  • RoyGBivCap 3y ago
    Zoomers these days seem to think Bill is a benevolent do-gooder due to Gates foundation propaganda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjHMoNGqQTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjHMoNGqQTI Those of us who were computer nerds in the '90s know he and Microsoft were more akin to the Borg. Slashdot always used to feature Bill as Locutus on stories about him/Microsoft. This is completely on brand for microsoft. The "reform" is entirely made up. He's the same oligarch he always was, and so are they.
    • efitz 3y ago
      Gates always was an asshole - nobody wanted to go to meetings with him because he was such a jerk. He set the example for the toxic nerd culture at Microsoft. A lot of the people at Microsoft were great but a lot of the leaders from that era, especially those promoted from the tech ranks, were downright abusive. I left near the end of the Ballmer era so I haven't gotten to see how things have changed under Satya Nadella but I hear good things from my friends who still work there.
• crumpled 3y ago
  The reasoning they are alleging is so unsound: "so you don't have to context switch" Going from my email into a browser that doesn't have any of my history or autofill stuff is going to result in a butt-ton of context switching. It's almost worse that they don't set it as the default browser.
• crumpled 3y ago
  I only occasionally use Edge on a machine where I use Firefox because it has similar API support as Chrome. (I only need it for like one web site). I've never needed Edge on any machine where I have Chrome, but I'm not installing chrome on any new system. M$FT wants me to install a dev build of Edge if I want to try Bing chat on Linux? Dream on. No Google or Microsoft applications on my Linux machine, thanks.
  • beachy 3y ago
    Funny, I had the same experience the other day as I tried to get me my first taste of some AI. Knew nothing so thought I'd start with Bing chat. Immediately blocked by the need to run an MS browser on my fedora machine, so Bing chat lost me instantly likely forever.
    • crumpled 3y ago
      FWIW, There is a Bing app for Android. I trust a .APK install/uninstall more than a .DEB or .MSI install/uninstall, thanks to the security sandbox.
      • crumpled 3y ago
        Wait you said Fedora. Replace .DEB with .RPM, obviously.
• manicennui 3y ago
  I'm baffled by why MS still cares about their browser. It made sense in the IE 5/6 days when they were using it as a way to lock people into their platform, but that seems unlikely to happen again unless their browser offers some huge advantage (ActiveX support was arguably the advantage in the past). This seems especially unlikely given that they are irrelevant in the mobile space. Pushing Bing search as a replacement for Google search seems like a much smarter play with a much larger upside.
• abdellah123 3y ago
  And vscode
• szundi 3y ago
  This makes me cry.
• zuminator 3y ago
  I wonder how many people who switched away from Windows for good actually wrote to Microsoft and informed them, "Hi I'm so-and-so lead developer for XYZ, and I and my entire team switched over to the Apple stack because your latest dark patters shenanigans were just the last straw." Corporations are like unhousebroken pets. Unless you rub their faces in the poop they won't know why you're upset they shit on the carpet.
• cuddlyogre 3y ago
  Teams also adds links that gets sent between users to Bing, with no consideration to whether those links are intended to be public or not. I know this because I searched for a variation of a private url generated by our system only to find several live links to things we didn't intend for the public to see. I was able to correct that problem in about a day and there were no compromises, but I was intensely irritated with everyone involved that day.
• Splice9160 3y ago
  I hate teams. that is all.
• HomeDeLaPot 3y ago
  So the justification seems to be that it's a special Edge feature that will open the browser side-by-side with the original email/Teams message. But that's completely separate from users' default browser preferences. They're introducing a shiny new Edge feature... and not satisfied with letting Edge win on its own merits, they're overriding users' explicit preferences to shove it in front of more users.
• snapplebobapple 3y ago
  Time to break them up into at least 3 companies and be done with it.
• nipperkinfeet 3y ago
  Since Windows 11, reading anything about Microsoft has been tedious and exhausting. This company has completely gone off the rails. I now consider them to be an adware and malware company.
• desmondrd 3y ago
  Edge fucking sucks.
• jamesgill 3y ago
  The relationship between Microsoft and larger enterprises is like an abuser and the partner who, no matter how long the abuse goes on, can’t seem to leave them.
• ymolodtsov 3y ago
  It's like there are two parts of Microsoft. The one is truly headed by Nadella. They focus on Microsoft 365, Teams and other revenue-generating stuff. And there's the old Microsoft, which still thinks Windows and Edge adoption matter.