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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings
- BeFlatXIII 3y agoHow soon until "new" homes come with a blank space for the new owner to install an aftermarket stove that can cook food properly?
- mkinsella 3y agoAgreed. An induction cooktop and electric stove are far superior to gas.
- konfusinomicon 3y agoI got an induction stove at a scratch and dent store for 60% off and if and when I move it is most certainly coming with me..I'll never go back to gas or electric. the time I've saved heating water alone has tripled the investment. and it came with a sous vide like temperature probe, which is priceless for making a decent cup of coffee
- downut 3y agoI am curious how one pops popcorn, shakes a pan, throws the pan, and heats the sides of the pan when eg reducing stock. How do woks work, exactly, on an induction burner? Why does spilling liquids cause the problems I encountered? Why does the bottom of the pans have to be perfectly flat? Some of my cast iron skillets (whoops never mind) are 50 years or more old and are not perfectly flat. They cook fantastic on a gas range. My All-Clad skillets reduce stock while caramalizing above the liquid level, and... the flavor gain is detectable. My only a few years old set of de Buyers "work" on induction but they're not perfectly flat, either. They are ever so slightly concave up in the center. They work fantastic too on a gas burner, but are a disaster on induction. While moving house across the country, our Viking gas range preceding us, I installed a moderately high end induction stove (~$1600) and cooked on it for three weeks before I completely gave up. I even bought "induction ready" pots and pans! No doubt it improved the resale value of the kitchen but for people with competent technique, an induction cook top is a culinary disaster. Far superior? Yeah, I don't think so. I really wanted to love that induction stove, it's why I paid extra for one to sell the house. But I was duped. Ah well there is theory and there is practice, and I remind myself yet again to always stick to practice.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fafqg 3y ago[flagged]
- ecshafer 3y agoThere is one really great use for induction stoves I found. My wife and I have a small one burner induction stove from Ikea, which is basically a high powered hot plate. Its great for putting on the table for hotpot, fondue, shabushabu, korean bbq, etc. Even though I love my gas range, I am always a little weird about putting a propane stove on my dining room table.
- downut 3y agoI really want to like your comment (and I will) but... but... hot pot, ..., korean bbq isn't the fire in the center of the table part of the entertainment the restaurant supplies? I suppose we can always in the glorious future buy electric table candelabras with solar powered rechargeable batteries that we can place into the window light on the annoited day and be sure our dinner date at our table works out... well? I choose the firebug spouse of mine who runs the campfires on outings and isn't afraid of a (controlled) spontaneous combustion.
- newZWhoDis 3y agoInduction doesn’t require you have perfectly flat pans/whatever. Your “induction ready” pots/pans were probably just really bad, like maybe aluminum (yikes) with some kind of induction-compatible insert? You want to use pure cast iron anyways. Everything your gas burner can do, a proper induction range can do better. Mine has a dedicated 240V 60A line and can boil water faster than anything but a restaurant-grade gas line (which isn’t even an option in most neighborhoods). I don’t use woks at all, but I can’t see why one wouldn’t work.
- anfilt 3y agoThe debuyer pans he mentioned are solid carbon steel french pans. They are really nice, but one thing about an induction stoves and carbon steel pans. Induction stoves can warp carbon steel pans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub-ADtsGo5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub-ADtsGo5s
- seizethecheese 3y agoIs this consensus opinion? I personally find gas to be far superior. It could be that I’ve used low quality electric.
- ApolloFortyNine 3y agoNo lol, until your average restaurant is all electric (it's not), it's very obviously not superior. Induction is better but nothing really beats gas for speed to reach the desired heat level.
- seizethecheese 3y agoGreat point.
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- carlosjobim 3y ago[flagged]
- galleywest200 3y agoInstall one in your backyard with a portable tank, problem solved.
- stathibus 3y agoEveryone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.
- tombert 3y agoCan't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- stathibus 3y agoSome are, and some of those even live up to their temperature rating, but they are subject to wind chill and can also fail due to ice and snow build-up, so its not as good as it sounds.
- tamaharbor 3y agoWhat is the backup, resistance heating?
- john_shafthair 3y agoElectric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.
- CydeWeys 3y ago> Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet. How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a neighborhood at all. A more realistic backup in these types of places (which is used widely in the northeast) is heating fuel oil in a tank.
- 71a54xd 3y agoThe irony is most of the industrial energy used in NYC to spin the pumps and fans in HVAC and thermal energy provided for heating water in boilers / air in NYC comes from steam generation plants. I used to live next to one near w58th street. For those who don't know, these massive facilities as large as power plants (some historically protected) run on natural gas! Although, it did boggle the mind how my luxury 2br apt (built in 2018) had a gas stove with only a small "suck" vent (return air of sorts that just vents to the roof)in each bathroom. If I ran the stove too long I'd set the fire alarm off from carbon monoxide and particulate in the air. So I'm actually a big proponent of doing this for indoor air quality.
- rahimnathwani 3y agoSF also has steam generation downtown. I learned about it 5 days ago here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35676878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35676878
- oakwhiz 3y agoIf buildings were required by code to have a more "fume hood"-like setup for capturing exhaust (with supply and return paths maintaining flow) then it would lead to better indoor air quality. As a bonus this is even a good idea anyway for electric stoves since it keeps any smells and smoke from leaving the kitchen area.
- john_shafthair 3y agoThey ARE required by code and have been for years. Parent's "luxury" apartment was not built to code. Probably one of those illegal NYC apartments where you tear open the walls and there's a whole other furnished room inside that isn't shown on the blueprints.
- oakwhiz 3y agoIs there a possibility that very old buildings are grandfathered in with existing ducts? Maybe they should be required to upgrade that.
- rayiner 3y agoAnd NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-strategy-behind-the-outrage-over-rumors-of-a-ban-on-gas-stoves https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra....
- lesuorac 3y ago> And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-strategy-behind-the-outrage-over-rumors-of-a-ban-on-gas-stoves https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... No they didn't. > MARTÍNEZ: Look, Jeff and Lisa, I don't know what's going to happen with gas stoves. Also NPR was talking about the Federal government. While the article above is talking about the New York _State_ government.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- john_shafthair 3y agoLiterally the first sentence of their rebuttal admits it's all performative: > Well, the risk for the environment, it's more about what gas stoves have come to represent. And that's the practice of burning natural gas in homes.
- lesuorac 3y agoStay on topic champ. rayiner's comment is that NPR told him "the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage". Whether or not gas stoves _should_ be banned is irrelevant. NPR clearly stated that they could become banned and that they don't know if they will.
- rayiner 3y agoWhy are you ignoring the title and first paragraph? > The facts and strategy behind the outrage over rumors of a ban on gas stoves > The conservative media was in uproar last week over speculation that the federal government planned to ban gas cooking stoves and possibly seize them. The aim is clearly to dismiss the concern as manufactured outrage—note the words “strategy,” “speculation,” and “outrage”—rather than a concern about something that may happen because it’s an aim liberals definitely have.
- gainda 3y ago"In addition to the environmental concerns raised by such widespread use of natural gas, some health experts have also argued that using it in the home, especially when cooking, may pose a health risk to consumers." Spending a day walking around NYC is probably worse for my health than years of gas stove usage. Every time I leave the city I feel like I need a shower from all the grime and who knows what I feel caked on me.
- lesuorac 3y agoThe article is about a ban from the State not the City so I'm not too sure why the cleanliness of NYC matters.
- john_shafthair 3y ago[flagged]
- wolverine876 3y agoWow. Where in NYC are you walking?
- diordiderot 3y agoThat feeling is from car exhaust
- someonehere 3y agoBerkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-californias-gas-ban/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?
- jrockway 3y agoA bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the battery at high current when the half-hour a day that you cook comes. That way you don't need a special circuit, and can cook while your hot water heater or washing machine is running. The added benefit is that your stove is now a UPS basically, so you can cook while the power's out. (I believe some can share power with other appliances, i.e. keep your refrigerator running for a while.) I have a gas range and it doesn't work when the electricity is off. If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost.
- orra 3y ago> If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost. And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.
- im3w1l 3y agoWell you could open a window.
- galleywest200 3y ago
- cmpalmer52 3y agoI write software for natural gas utility management and maintenance. Between this and coding AIs, I’m glad I’m approaching retirement age. Of course, new government regulations (not outright bans) are a lot of what drives the need for our software.
- tomohawk 3y ago[flagged]
- bsder 3y ago[flagged]
- WalterBright 3y agohttps://www.wsj.com/articles/illinois-j-b-pritzker-taxes-states-irs-ec3da356 https://www.wsj.com/articles/illinois-j-b-pritzker-taxes-sta...
- seizethecheese 3y agoI personally don’t like seeing this kind of sarcastic, politically vitriolic, substance-less comment on HN.
- lizardking 3y agoEvery day hacker news continues its slow slide into redditdom.
- seizethecheese 3y agoThe parent and the reply are now heavily downvoted. It pays to call this stuff out (without stooping to the same level.
- the_doctah 3y agoChicago South Side sounds right in your wheelhouse.
- nonethewiser 3y agoThis is factually correct. https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/features/states-move-to-from/ https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/features/states-move... #4 is Pennsylvania and #5 is Massachusetts. Most moved to are Texas, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Georgia.
- sourcecodeplz 3y agoOne can always downgrade to those 60L? gas canisters that you take to the center and they give you a full one. My grandma still uses one.
- nonethewiser 3y agoWhat a ridiculous step backwards
- galleywest200 3y agoOnly 24% of my state (Washington) has gas stoves. We have already begun the process to ban Natural Gas into new buildings. Nothing major is happening and the sky is not falling. If you are curious about your state's ratio of gas to electric stoves, you can check here [PDF warning]: https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/pdf/State%20Appliances.pdf https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/...
- fwungy 3y agoWashington is unique in its hydropower positioning. It's easy to electrify in Washington because it makes sense to do so. Hydropower is cheap and clean. Unfortunately it's not a replicable model for the rest of the country.
- novaRom 3y agoGermany has almost no hydropower, no nuclear power anymore, but German government is continuing to insist a similar ban on natural gas in all new buildings should be introduced (or maybe already in action).
- azinman2 3y agoThe US makes its own natural gas. Germany imports, and until recently despite warnings to do so, from Russia. It’s a different situation.
- fwungy 3y agoGermany thought they'd have cheap Russian gas from Nordstream. Now they're looking to move manufacturing to the US because energy is too expensive. Look at it this way, even is CO2 levels are primarily anthropogenic, most of the world isn't willing to do anything about it substantial (i.e. Global South). In which case the Western economies martyring themselves isn't going to change anything. OTOH, if climate change is not primarily anthropogenic the West martyring itself with expensive green energy decisions is a disastrous mistake. What is the game theoretical optimal move here?
- neonate 3y agohttps://archive.ph/Z9WG6 https://archive.ph/Z9WG6 http://web.archive.org/web/20230428234122/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/nyregion/gas-stove-ban-ny.html http://web.archive.org/web/20230428234122/https://www.nytime...
- ridgitdigit 3y ago[dead]
- aaomidi 3y agoThis is a stupid idea for rural NY. Way to increase the cost of living here… Like, this is why people in rural areas hate big cities. This is completely fair for NYC. Not for the rest of NY. Not without a lot of investment from the government. You’re effectively left with oil, wood, and electric heat. All three have a lot of their own problems and difficulties.
- mikeg8 3y agoJust curious, as I’m not in the NY area but are most rural homes over there on natural gas or propane? In rural parts of CA, people have propane tanks in the yard which wouldn’t be effected by this. Natural gas infrastructure seems to diminish further from cities, so I’m wondering how much this actually effects rural residents
- aaomidi 3y agoAh I see, it excludes those tanks... Makes sense now.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoI don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, where, if what all the heat pump folks say is true, gas should fall out of favor vs. heat pumps eventually anyway. On the other side, I'm tired of the constant cries of "Muh Freedom!!!" in the face of any regulation that ignores the collective impact of not having any regulations. Still, even for those who are gravely concerned about global warming, this feels like it will lead to a pyrrhic victory at best by making your average Joe more skeptical of government overreach. It seems like there could have been umpteen different types of government responses (e.g. support for heat pumps) that would have been better received by most folks compared to "we're banning something that a lot of people find useful and convenient".
- topaz0 3y agoA big part of the reason for banning gas is not energy but indoor pollution. There's pretty strong and growing evidence that cooking with gas leads to substantial health risks because of various combustion products that end up in your air (especially if not properly vented).
- endisneigh 3y agoFrom what I’ve read the same indoor pollution exists with induction even if not vented. The confounding variable is that induction generally is present in new construction which will have proper ventilation. TLDR: it’s a function of ventilation
- dustymcp 3y agoCooking itself releases a bunch of stuff that isnt great regardless of stove its entirely on the ventilation.
- philip1209 3y agoElectricity is a universal protocol - you can generate it with multiple different energy sources, ranging from gas to nuclear. I think this change future-proofs constructions, and makes our infrastructure less fragile.
- dadjoker 3y agoAs California has shown multiple times, dependence on electricity alone can be disastrous.
- 8note 3y agoDependence on the electricity is fine, dependence on the grid alone can be disastrous. Depending on two different grid's is better whether the second one is gas or your own electricity generation
- blindriver 3y agoCalifornia's strategy for electricity is non-existent. We have been perpetually at peak electricity use since 25+ years since I came here. Meanwhile electricity use from EVs has soared, and we don't have enough electricity for everything. AND we attempted to shut down nuclear power plants but that appears to be on hold for now. Plus, I'm paying over $0.50/kWh when I hit Tier 3, which I hit after 2 charges of my EV. Everything is untenable. There is no strategy at all. It's just a mess of ideology and dogma but no science or logic, it's infuriating!
- ricardobayes 3y agoWell, holy smokes, I thought electricity was cheap in the US.
- annexrichmond 3y agoIt could have been, but ideologues won’t stop talking about wind turbines vs fossil fuels. Over 30% of California’s grid comes from renewable resources, which seems great, but appears to have come at a cost.
- briantakita 3y agoWhy not ban, or at least seriously curtail the emissions of the organization responsible for the most toxic pollution & whose mission is literally to kill people, the military, instead? How about the multitude of other government agencies responsible for pollution?
- VagueMag 3y agoWill this also prohibit the installation of propane or other one-off gas cooking options at summer homes in the Hamptons? Are all those personal chefs going to have to make do with induction ranges?
- bradlys 3y agoI used to not really be for these bans but - the big issue that I find is that due to the gas lobby, we're not going to make progress on this front until hard hitting regulations come in. As long as you have a pipe that is being serviced going to your home - how many people can justify the hookup fee every month along with all the infrastructure to give you gas just for cooking? It's nonsensical because the amount of gas used is trivial. Therefore, the push will always be to use gas heating and other gas appliances as much as possible because the infrastructure for the building is still there. That's what the gas lobby relies on - using your emotional attachment to gas cooking (which has been a long effort by theirs for the last 50+ years) to make sure that they keep getting you to pay them money for gas for heating, drying clothes, etc. even if alternatives exist that are plenty suitable/better-for-us-all. Also - this is going to be a miniscule amount of difference in the lives of us all. If you're so concerned - buy an old home. Good thing we basically don't ever build anything new. This is a non-issue.
- rhaway84773 3y agoThe reactions to the gas hookup ban really reminds me of how insular Americans really are. They can’t even imagine a world where gas does not come in pipes, when arguably that’s how the vast majority of the world lives. You want a gas stove? Buy a gas stove, and get a cylinder. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just don’t expect everyone else to subsidize running that gas in a pipe up to your gas stove.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoLarge parts of the south in the USA lack natural gas from pipes also. Propane is much more common in those parts (see the cartoon “King of the Hill” for example).
- PM_me_your_math 3y agoIf we wanted to live like the rest of the world, we wouldn't have started our own country.
- tcfhgj 3y agoIronically you will achieve the opposite fueling climate change
- PM_me_your_math 3y agoEvery single climate change prediction (hundreds of them) made since the 1960s have failed to materialize. ...But I'm the crazy one since I refuse to run around like a chicken without a head. The church of climatology and latter day taxes is full of shit. It has always been full of shit. It was always and shall always be a power play. I know for sure that earth's climate changes, but also know for sure that taxes and economic ham-stringing isn't going to influence it in any way, shape, or form.
- endisneigh 3y agoWould you say the same about plumbing? Much if the world doesn’t have that, you have to go and carry your own water from a local river to your house. Imagine how little water waste there would be if you had to haul it yourself.
- adolph 3y agoGiven one of the health-deleterious of gas cooking come from the nitrogen in the atmospheric gasses used for combustion: maybe it would make sense to have stoves that used a pure oxygen source alongside the methane. This would be more expensive and hazardous but as a result lead to stronger controls over the combustion process.
- iamdamian 3y agoThis regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an entirely different argument, this time about personal health. I don't think the personal health justification stands up to scrutiny, for two reasons: 1. If you buy a home and want it to have a gas stove, why is it the state government's place to say that you can't do so, for your own health? 2. According to research I've seen, vented fume hoods seem to mitigate any health effects; if that's true and a state government really wants to intervene, why not spread awareness or perhaps mandate that newly constructed buildings with gas lines also have venting for fume hoods? (Incidentally, requiring venting for fume hoods would be a nice baseline for New York.) I haven't seen any well-reasoned debate on this topic, possibly because the rationale for the regulation is, in fact, incoherent.
- greedo 3y agoFor the same reason that they can say not to use lead paint, or asbestos siding...
- superbaconman 3y agoRight but is the particulate matter from burning natural gas any more harmful then the particulate matter from searing protein?
- toss1 3y agoIt is not only particulate matter but gaseous combustion products that are the problem, and gas stoves are used for a LOT more than only searing protein, starting with heating tea water. Also, just because searing protein produces bad indoor pollution, doesn't mean that any other pollution should therefore be automatically ignored. It is purely optional whether you want to use your stove to sear protein (e.g., you won't find any vegans using it for that purpose), but you don't really have an option if the only thing installed is a gas stove to heat your tea water or saute your onions...
- matsemann 3y agoI don't like the name "natural gas". It's fossil gas. "Natural gas" is only used to make it seem greener.
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y agoThis seems like a risky bet. The monoculture could come and bite hard NYC. A city already a hot target for terrorism... now exposed to the unknown (tiny ?) probability, of 1 EMP, one solar flare, one major blackout via hack or mechanical failure....and its millions without basic heating, and who knows for how long ? an entire winter ?
- rcpt 3y agoThis should make new construction cheaper, no? That's good if you want to see more housing built.
- hackernoteng 3y agoAs always, follow the money and give no heed to virtue signaling politicians who claim to care about climate change while living in multiple homes, flying around on private jets and rarely spending any time in nature.
- engineer_22 3y agoI'm frankly amazed at how dogmatic the argument around gas stoves is. How does this happen? How have people been educated about an issue like this so quickly?
- srslack 3y agoI'll be burying a 1000 gallon propane tank, for propane heating and two propane ranges (I have an apartment I've constructed) within the next year, with a propane generator to help during power outages, while I still can. I'll be heating/cooling primarily with a heat pump, but it simply cannot be relied upon for safety. This is ultimately performative, as it doesn't really help reach carbon targets, and politically it seems like suicide with something like 70% of homes having a gas appliance. Even weirder, the governor is from Buffalo. I'm not sure that this is the hill to die on in the northeast. But I guess it would be good for property values of previous construction.
- tills13 3y agoout of curiosity in which state do you live
- dathinab 3y agoIMHO it should say "especially stoves". While gas stoves are nicer for cooking then simple electrical stoves, induction stoves have become comparatively cheap and can be roughly as good as gas stoves. At the same time having gas stoves is associated with a non small number of health risk especially with subpar ventilation and also associated with a non small risk for pretty bad accidents of all kinds. So a ban on gas stoves is IMHO overdue.
- crooked-v 3y agoInduction stoves are a lot better than gas stoves these days for most purposes. Faster and more consistent heating, easier to clean, less stray heat in your house... basically the only downside is that you can't use a wok or other non-flat pan without specialty equipment.
- spoonjim 3y agoThis is a good idea in general… eventually all of this gas infrastructure will be incredibly expensive to maintain just to send energy when you could send that through wires.
- Panzer04 3y agoGood for them. Heat pumps obviate the need for gas heating, and gas stoves aren’t worth the trouble with induction posing a reasonable alternative.
- boplicity 3y agoExactly. Homes built now should be in their prime in the mid 2040s. At that point, we really, really, really don't want to need gas infrastructure for our homes. (If we get to that point, and a significant percentage of people are still heating their homes with gas, then how are we not screwed?) We need to be building zero emissions homes. (Or as close to it as we can.) The heating technology already exists to replace most single family home gas heating. That begs the question: Why invest in gas infrastructure just for a gas stove? That, frankly, seems shortsighted. This isn't just about individual choices, or even individual homes. This is about transitioning away from government supported infrastructure that brings gas to homes, which is a society-wide issues. 20 years from now, gas pipes to homes should be seen as unnecessary.
- plandis 3y agoI have a heat pump and there are definitely days where it’s so cold it cannot heat my home fast enough and it’s rather uncomfortable and I’m in a zone where heat pumps in theory should be all you need. Geothermal heat pumps are comparatively very expensive (I looked into that initially) I love my induction stove though. But I’ll admit it’s more expensive than a gas stove and you need to make sure all your cookware works with induction. It definitely wasn’t cheap to make the switch.
- robomartin 3y agoHow about facts for a change? How many new housing units are built in the State of NY per year? I'll call it 20K. https://furmancenter.org/news/press-release/new-york-built-185000-units-of-multifamily-housing-from-2010-2020 https://furmancenter.org/news/press-release/new-york-built-1... Let's go with the moonshot proposal of 50K per year (good luck): https://www.bdcnetwork.com/new-york-city-advances-plan-build-500000-new-housing-units https://www.bdcnetwork.com/new-york-city-advances-plan-build... How many housing units in NY State? Approximately 8 million. https://www.infoplease.com/us/census/new-york/housing-statistics https://www.infoplease.com/us/census/new-york/housing-statis... How many housing units in the entire nation? Approximately 140 million. What percentage of CO2 does the US contribute to the planet? Approximately 14%. Look for the pie-chart about half-way down. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emi... First conclusion: If the US evaporated from the planet tomorrow, CO2 production would only decrease by 14%. Global CO2 would continue to increase at the same rate. The net effect on climate would be zero. Second conclusion: The proposal is to force 0.6% of NY State housing units to use electric stoves. The proposal is to force 0.04% of US housing units to use electric stoves. Electric stoves are NOT zero-emission devices. Less, yes, not zero. Even assuming zero emissions, the net effect on US CO2 contribution will effectively be zero. Third conclusion: This proposal is empty and ridiculous. It has no foundation in evidence of any kind. It does, however, serve to garner votes from those who believe in this stuff blindly and follow politicians like they actually know and care about any of this stuff. Wait! Wait a minute! You are only considering one year? How about 50 years? Right. So, the US continues to contribute CO2 to the world at a rate likely exceeding 14% of the total contribution and, somehow we are going to save the plante by not cooking using gas for half an hour per day? What do you want to bet that the act of constructing 50K new housing units per year will generate far more CO2 than those 50K gas stoves will generate for their entire useful lifetimes? Seriously! Is anyone even interested in science and evidence any more? But, but, health? Seriously? With eight billion people around the world, millions must be dropping dead every day because they cook for half an hour per day using fire. The horror! This thing has become a blind belief system, not a subject people can discuss based on facts-based hypothesis that allow anyone to reproduce the results and confirm the conclusions. A couple of potential definitions of the term: Believing something in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. or... A strong belief in a supernatural power in support of a conclusion. or... Magic. Believing that forcing 0.6% of the stoves in NY State per year will have an effect on climate change is a belief so ridiculous that, in a rational society, it would be summarily laughed off the stage. Yet, this isn't a rational society. It is a tribalized society based on blind beliefs of all kinds promoted through social media and mercilessly used by politicians to get the unthinking masses to vote for them. Blind belief is a powerful tool. With help, it seems to be a LOT easier to get the masses to believe in absolute nonsense than to actually work hard and deliver tangible results that actually benefit society. This is particularly true when the politician can take advantage of complicit actors in society who also stand to benefit from the nonsense they want to sell or the power they aim to acquire. People, companies, are making money and gaining power with this belief system hand-over-fist. It is amazing to watch this happen as an objective observer. It is frustrating to yell out loud "The emperor has no clothes" only to be met with blind belief and ignorance of facts, as if it were a virtue. This proposal is like claiming that banning birthday candles and fireworks will save the planet. It's ridiculous, idiotic, demonstrably false and anyone who can add 1 + 1 and get 2 should see it as such. Hold on. Here come the attacks...
- slackfan 3y agoNonono, this regulation is a conspiracy theory. How could NYT print such disinformation.
- anon291 3y agoI remember when this was a right wing conspiracy theory.
- danans 3y agoHousing developers themselves often prefer not to run expensive natural gas plumbing into new buildings in addition to electricity. As an example, consider 461 Dean St, which besides being the largest modular skyscraper in the US, is fully electric [1]. This ordinance will just probably just push electrification from exclusively at the high-end out to the entire new housing stock. 1. https://461dean.com/ https://461dean.com/
- sintezcs 3y agoIn Russia (despite one of the the cheapest gas prices for consumers) they are already ignoring gas for years. I think 95% of new buildings during the past 20 years or so were built without gas. So you end up with electrical stove and oven. The reason? It’s just cheaper and simpler for construction companies. There are a lot of regulations coming in if you decide to use natural gas in a new building, thus resulting in more expensive project, longer construction time and much more difficult acceptance procedures. Construction companies just prefer to ignore all these problems and use electricity instead.
- kentiko 3y agoGaz stove have almost no upside compared to induction stove in most cases. Some elements of answer about why the adoption of induction is behind in the USA: https://youtu.be/hX2aZUav-54 https://youtu.be/hX2aZUav-54
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoIsn't it obvious that we've just been through this exact same conversation for climate change, renewables, EVs, heat pumps? It follows the exact same format of FUD, JAQ-ing, denial, illogic, intentional misunderstanding and avoidance of factual information. Fool me once, shame on you. Start what is effectively a religion to defend the financial interests of those burning fossil fuels at the expense of everyone else, shame on you even more.
- iamflimflam1 3y agoI used to be very much on the side of gas stoves are always better than electric. Then I had a decent inductor stove and it changed my mind for good. Much of my opinion on electric stoves was based on “folklore” passed down from my parents and on using ancient resistive stoves. Get an induction hob - you will not look back.
- anonu 3y agoAnother thing to consider gas is usually not metered individually, electricity is. So this just makes it more expensive for the average tenant in NYC.
- baybal2 3y ago[dead]
- okokwhatever 3y agoOh my God. Paternalism everywhere...
- user3939382 3y agoIMHO: The government including EPA has been hijacked by corporate interests that destroy the environment literally on an industrial scale. The same club of multinationals have expropriated our middle class and sent it to China, which is profitable in part because of the lack of environmental regulations which manages to be even worse than the hollowed out ones we enjoy here. So while all this is going on we have the bullshit with straws, our printers turning themselves off constantly, and now this, as if people in their homes are the lever that needs to be pulled to fix the environment. It’s a farce and a diversion from the corruption that’s actually contributing to environmental damage. Electric and gas stoves are not analogs, at all. Bet your ass the politicians pushing this for optics will NOT be using an electric stove at home.
- gumballindie 3y agoMeanwhile here in europe electric stoves work just fine, cook faster, are cleaner and safer. Entering a house with gas stoves feels like stepping back in time.
- danny_codes 3y agoInduction stoves are cheaper, more energy efficient, safer, and better for your health. There aren't any advantages to gas at all. The gas industry has, however, put many billions into lobbying and marketing to convince you otherwise. And it seems they have succeeded. For your education https://youtu.be/hX2aZUav-54 https://youtu.be/hX2aZUav-54
- user3939382 3y ago> There aren't any advantages to gas at all That's false. Gas means you can instantly adjust the heat level. Electric is nice if you don't actually cook or don't know how. You don't find electric in any restaurant ever and there's a reason for that. Again, the people pushing this legislation 100% do not have electric ranges in their house. This is performative politics that has nothing to do with actually caring about the environment.
- 3y ago
- williamcotton 3y agoAs someone who worked professionally as a line cook in my younger years the benefits of cooking over a flame are primarily in fine and quick control over temperature. Moving the pan, lifting the pan, adjusting the temperature, etc, are key to a good number of dishes. You lose that fine-grained control with the various electric stovetops.
- animitronix 3y agoYou're incapable of lifting a pan of an electric burner?
- williamcotton 3y agoThe temperature decreases very quickly compared to a flame. When you’re cooking with things with very low burning points (like cream) being able to have that kind of fine control is important. Also, moving the pan off of the center of the burner and cooking parts at different temperatures is required for some dishes. These were techniques I was trained to use. I haven’t worked in a kitchen in over 20 years so maybe the technology has improved to the point where this is possible with induction pans.
- tonetheman 3y ago[dead]
- tohnjitor 3y agoThey also keep threatening to ban the replacement of existing gas appliances when they cannot be repaired. I will be moving my family out of state before this happens. Any of you electronauts interested in a ~5000sqft home in the middle of a picturesque village with no crime? You'll have to call the gas company about removing the hookup after you move in.
- roflyear 3y agoSo strange what people choose to care about
- tohnjitor 3y agoIt's the last straw in a long list of offensive and disrespectful actions the state government has taken.
- carabiner 3y agoAmericans are fucking nuts. Induction works 10x better than gas.
- tohnjitor 3y agoInduction won't fill my cast iron radiator system with steam.
- roflyear 3y agoWho is removing your gas heat?
- roflyear 3y agoYeah pretty crazy what people care about. This guy seems to live in (according to them) beautiful place they seem to like, no crime, huge house (5,000 sqft is massive), and they are upset about natural gas. ???
- 3y ago
- perryizgr8 3y agoIf you have to use the coercive power of the state to make people use X instead of Y, it means Y is better in more ways for more people. You're just being an authoritarian and crushing individual liberty. The justification (correct or incorrect) doesn't matter. If it were really better, people will gradually switch to electric cooking equipment on their own. Like how government never had to ban horse drawn carriages and force everyone to buy an automobile.
- thedougd 3y agoI have a gas range and love the idea of an induction cooktop. Plenty of power and control without the difficult cleanup. But heaven help you if you’re stuck with 208V service as many do in condos and apartments where the building is serviced with 3 phase 480V. The reduction in wattage for a 240V appliance is significant and easily noticed.
- mvkel 3y agoMore virtue signaling in the fight against climate change. This will have zero impact on climate change and will only mean people can't feed themselves when the power goes out.
- cullinap 3y agogas/coal still generate electricity though?
- hatsune 3y agoVery controversial. U.S. as a divided land and government (now) can't pass anything in federal court so N.Y. is banning natural gas where oil companies in Alaska can dig well right next to preservation area and burn the excess gas on site (because app. it is cheap and they don't have infrastructure to transport or store), cooking massive fireballs 24 hours a day. Is this step from N.Y. a leap too far? definitely. Is it in the right direction, as opposed to drill baby drill? Also definitely. However in actual climate impact, it is more sustainable to ban petrol car, but our battery tech does not allow everyone to buy EV. Either to public transportation or go junk traffic. Those petrol car (and SUV, "light truck") causes a lot more harm than natural gas which burns into water and carbon dioxide, from asthma to smog. Domestic use of natural gas is terribly effective to be ignored. I don't know right now but I think they should mandate heat pump in every new houses so minimal energy can result in great heat in winter, instead of relying on AC and failed on grid. Also, N.Y. does not have tons of renewables?