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I help seniors with technology issues

• AtomicOrbital 4y ago
  I also help locals with their PC issues ... my favorite solution is to wipe the drive and install Ubuntu ... they get the same browsers without fighting Windows ... these new linux users absolutely love their PC once again
• tpoacher 4y ago
  I was hoping this was going to be one of those "so I installed linux for him" stories. I was saddened to see it wasn't.
• deanc 4y ago
  Have the exact same experience with my mothers laptop. Some acer shit. Within a few months of her using it she complained it’s slow, takes ages to turn on etc. After removing almost everything from the manufacturer it was usable. But even now she barely uses the machine and never installs anything and it’s unusable slow with essentially zero usage after a couple of years. She’s not even ran any updates. It wouldn’t surprise me if these machines are built to die.
  • teekert 4y ago
    Try Ubuntu (or whatever Linux you enjoy, it's just that Ubuntu is mostly hand-off for 5 years), I just bought a ~6 y/o laptop for my brother, a Fujitsu Lifebook E736 (introduced in 2016), 512 GB hard drive, 8 GB ram, some Corei5 CPU 150 eur, I did put a new battery in it. Works like a charm, 0 complaints. But, to be honest, the guy that sold it put some super bare Win10 on it and that also felt pretty fast. In any event, for email and web-browsing I think Ubuntu is just perfect. I have it on our HTPC and the whole family uses it without thinking twice. And it stays fast. Oh, our family laptop (the one the kids use, and I do on occasion) is a Dell Latitude E5450, first introduced in 2015(!), I got it 2nd hands in 2019, it looked barely used. I put Ubuntu on it (but recently I installed Arch, when I regularly use a machine myself I prefer it), the thing still feels like a fast new laptop, the kids went through Covid with it, using Teams (for Linux) and doing online homework. I use it for dev work on the side. Love the machine. My advice: Get a second hand business model from a good source (some local trader that gets good reviews, or you can visit, we have a lot of local IT people gathering on a website here that sell older business hardware [0, Dutch website]). Plus, it's nice to give stuff a second life instead of buying cheap throw-away shitware for cheap. [0]: https://tweakers.net/laptops/aanbod/ https://tweakers.net/laptops/aanbod/
    • _trampeltier 4y ago
      I use Fujitsu since a long time at home (3 notebooks, 1 workstation). I think Fujitsu has almost none bloatware. For me the reason, why I buy this (a bit expensive) brand .. and Linux does work mostly well too.
    • noir_lord 4y ago
      During the pandemic I used what I had to hand, I chucked Fedora on a Vostro 3750 (which was my old dev laptop years ago so had an SSD and 16GB of RAM) and the thing was perfectly acceptable for all his schooling, youtube stuff, since that model was a 17" battleship desktop replacement it was perfect for him with an external keyboard and mouse .
    • deanc 4y ago
      My mother has a gas meter in her home, which requires a usb device to be plugged into her laptop to load value on to this device which is then plugged into the meter and transfers the value. It is not compatible with anything but Windows.
      • teekert 4y ago
        So a gas company can force you to get a Windows PC?
        • lowercased 4y ago
          arguably just force you to use windows. you could possibly go to a neighbor or library or something, but.. well.. a library would probably lock down random usb drives being put in or random software to manage gas meter accounts. and ... your neighbor may not want to share because you'd have access to their meter info as well (assuming you could even do that)... so... yeah...
    • gureddio 4y ago
      I'm surprised there aren't more suggestions to ditch the windows install totally and go with a Linux distro like Ubuntu. Personally I also know of family members that get on very well with chromebooks
  • magpi3 4y ago
    Maybe just max out the RAM? Computers becoming unusable is in my experience usually related to hard drive swapping.
• 0x69420 4y ago
  this is why i'm happy my dad is a programmer and my mom uses a macbook
  • superhuzza 4y ago
    Switching my 60 y/o mom from Windows laptops to a Macbook reduced the amount of family IT support I do by about 75%. She still struggles with some stuff, but more on the level of how to do things than issues with the machine itself.
    • drcongo 4y ago
      My mum (in her 70s) switched to a MacBook Pro and while it increased the family IT support for me in the short term as the Mac "expert" among us, once she'd figured out her way around, I've not had a single help request in about 5 years now.
      • petepete 4y ago
        Similarly for me, I switched my dad to my old Dell XPS which came pre-installed with Ubuntu. He's on Fedora and it's been running fine for about 4-5 years, across multiple (automatic) version upgrades. The only thing I've had to help him with across that time are little things like setting his Firefox home page and finding some files "I definitely saved in Documents" but turned out to be in Downloads. I can deal with those.
• can16358p 4y ago
  I don't get it. For a few more bucks they instantly get their brand connonated with slowness and being unreliable. How do manufacturers throw in all the crapware and expect a good user experience and happy customers? Oh of course, they don't care. I've moved to Mac but back in days I used Windows, the VERY FIRST thing I did was to install a fresh copy of Windows, then install any necessary drivers which are absolutely required for proper function (I remember just finding the driver files and installing them manually from add hardware dialog instead of installing bloatware of the manufacturer). Wish things have changed in 10 years... apparently it didn't. And of course I'm tech savvy. I don't see any less-savvy senior being able to solve this problem; it should be regulated in a way that there should be a mandatory and ugly label showing all the crapware included with the device while buying, perhaps even extra taxing for each crapware included, discouraging manufacturers from including them.
  • m463 4y ago
    > How do manufacturers throw in all the crapware and expect a good user experience and happy customers? they have two customers: - the people who pay them for the computers - the crapware people who pay for the bundling sometimes the profit from one or the other is unexpected. for instance, in another area, visio makes more money from the snooping data than the tv sale
  • praptak 4y ago
    How does this work? Is it possible to install a fresh copy of Windows on a vendor laptop without a separate, expensive, "boxed" license?
    • vetinari 4y ago
      Yes; your laptop should have the Windows license embedded in firmware. If it came with one, that is. You can download the Windows installer directly from MS. Installing all the drivers needed is on you. They might or might not be downloaded from Windows Update.
    • daemin 4y ago
      Since Windows licences are tied to the hardware you can reinstall it from almost any Windows installation media and it should automatically activate.
• rowanG077 4y ago
  The first course of business for any laptop bought should be to reinstall it.
  • timbit42 4y ago
    ...and not from the recovery partition.
• cpach 4y ago
  For many users I think a Chromebook or iPad would be much more suitable.
  • gureddio 4y ago
    This is certainly the case, and I think more and more people are going this way. My 70 year old mother uses her 4 year old iPad for things she might have previously done on a PC. She gets on with it without issues
    • jfk13 4y ago
      I used to think the iPad was going to be the best way forward for my (non-technologically-inclined) father, now in his 90s. But in the end, the combination of the touch UI and his arthritic fingers just didn't work out. We ended up going back to a Chromebook, with slightly better success.
• samsquire 4y ago
  I use Windows 11 on an Intel 10th generation NUC and it is very fast. It came from Novatech in the UK. My last computer was a 32 core 128gb RAM Threadripper from ChillBlast. Surprisingly the Threadripper had a slower single core performance than the Intel NUC. I also use a Ubuntu virtual machine in VirtualBox with Vagrant for development machines to do DevOps. But I also use IntelliJ and it is fast enough on the NUC and it's SSD and 32GB RAM. I don't play games. But I write multithreaded software so I get 12 logical cores to play with. (6 physical cored and 12 hardware threads) I think the innovators dilemma has occurred with mobile technology. Mobile chips such as my NUC and ARM chips in phones are good enough for development. (See apple silicon) I can run 6 virtual machines without slowdown. Admittedly my IntelliJ is running on a small repository. I suspect it I was working on an employer's project it would slow down due to all the files. Most of the time the computer is waiting for IO and the CPU can be different levels of idle. I recommend the Gist "latency numbers every developer should know" https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832 https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832 I would recommend people buy from manufacturers that don't preload stuff into their laptops. Such as Framework, System76, ChillBlast, Novatech. EDIT: I had an ASUS but I installed Ubuntu on it and I cannot remember if the windows had lots of manufacturer software on it. I rarely booted into windows.
• ponyous 4y ago
  > "How often does the trackpad REALLY need a firmware update?" Never. Literally had broken trackpad drivers on Lenovo for years. They were aware of the issue, it was "normal" on the model I had. This was around 2013. I will never ever again recommend anything from Lenovo. Trackpad was a minor issue compared to other problems that I had with that same laptop.
  • lizardactivist 4y ago
    It sounds very strange that you would have so many problems with it, yet you used it "for years".
    • ponyous 4y ago
      I was a student, barely managed to afford it, couldn’t justify replacing it. Wifi issues were worse than trackpad for example - absolutely terrible range and speeds up to 400KBs. I sent it back only to get the same laptop back with extra scratches. After that I didn’t even get a reply from support anymore. I managed to fix wifi issues with extra dongle, but how sad is that? Trackpad was always an issue. You think I’m speaking badly of Lenovo just for fun?
• wildrhythms 4y ago
  I always wonder if the VPs and higherups at companies like Lenovo actually try to use the shit they're shoveling.
  • itronitron 4y ago
    I doubt it. Instead they are focused on chasing down profits by engineering out the value. My family has several 'copies' of a laptop from the same company, one of which is the newer model, by one year. The newer model is flimsy and has required multiple repairs to the display, hinges, keyboard, case, etc... Parts are easy to source for the newer model but impossible to find for the older one, although naturally we haven't needed any yet.
• fxtentacle 4y ago
  This reminds me of yesterday's article "We used to get excited about technology. What happened?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33308249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33308249 To which I replied "It's the lack of control." Sounds like I'm not the only one growing old who is feeling tired about having to treat every new hardware device as an adversary.
• secretsatan 4y ago
  But this is how you get those dirt cheap laptops isn't it? Likewise for super cheap huge TVs. I've long believed that most computers sold cheap as consumer devices simply aren't fit for purpose, sure, most people here could take one and make the changes required to remove bloat and spyware, but it's out of the reach of a typical consumer
• SanjayMehta 4y ago
  I struggled for a couple of hours with a similar problem on a Lenovo and finally gave up, wiped the drive and installed Linux Mint. The user was a little hesitant to use Firefox, quickly adapted and I've not had any calls for help since.
• torh 4y ago
  This is true even when installing a fresh copy of Windows. Microsoft have made some deals to include a lot of apps that gives you nothing. Zero. Well, unless you for some reason need candy crush on your laptop. If that's your thing, sure, enjoy. For the rest of us; please just give us the minimum. Pre-installed Office package just in case we will buy a license in the future?
  • wildrhythms 4y ago
    It's not even limited to a 'fresh' copy of Windows either. When you 'upgrade' to Windows 11, it automatically installs and enables Microsoft Teams (formerly Skype) at startup without the user's consent. I have never once used the software in my life. Surely the capable engineers at Microsoft have a way to detect if I have Skype/Microsoft Teams in my previous installation to make an educated guess as to whether it should be enabled in the new installation?
    • BLKNSLVR 4y ago
      All capable engineers have their decisions filtered through management before merging to production is authorised.
• thefz 4y ago
  On the other hand, my very high end work-issued Lenovo laptop came with zero crapware installed. Only one Lenovo support tool which I used when I needed and has never bothered me ever. I think this problem is more with the consumer line. I've been in the same situation as OP before though with computers from parents and friends, and it's unbearable. A straight reinstall of Windows after buy is the only viable option. I had to diagnose a not-so-old pc sold with all kinds of crap installed, 4GB of RAM, Windows 10 and a rotating 5400HDD thrashing all the time.
  • tyingq 4y ago
    >I think this problem is more with the consumer line. That's my experience as well. So if you need a cheap Windows laptop, a used corporate class laptop is often a better path than a cheap new consumer class one.
    • TeMPOraL 4y ago
      I'd argue used corporate class laptop is a better choice at all price points.
  • jeroenhd 4y ago
    > I think this problem is more with the consumer line. Not even all of their consumer products are bad. It's often the cheap (sub $600) laptops that I suspect gets subsidised by the crapware that comes preinstalled. When people ask me for recommendations for a laptop for around $400, I always say "second hand" or "save up a bit longer" because these days spending less than $600 is often a recipe for disaster.
    • sbuk 4y ago
      > When people ask me for recommendations for a laptop for around $400, I always say "second hand" or "save up a bit longer" because these days spending less than $600 is often a recipe for disaster. This is the best advice you can give, but I'd include the option of an iPad/Chromebook. And even with a Chromebook anything <$300 is asking for trouble. Realistically, a decent laptop that will be performant and cheap that is well made doesn't exist. You're looking at ~$800 before you get get anything relyable.
• dcminter 4y ago
  My late father, who was a software developer by trade before his retirement, had a desktop machine set up running Windows 7 (probably?) that he used for checking email, and buying stuff online. A few years later, when he had been diagnosed with cancer and was on chemo, it updated itself to Windows 10 without his explicit consent. It completely fucked up the install, and was unusable for him from then on. He was too tired to go through the process of getting it sorted out, and was thus unable to book a vacation that he had intended to take to recover from that round of chemo. Microsoft's unfriendly us-first, customers-second process robbed him of his last holiday and I will not easily forgive them for it. If a seasoned developer can be robbed of quality of life by this flavour of bullshit, what chance do the non-technical types stand?
  • gadders 4y ago
    I installed Teams on my personal PC last week, and as part of the install Microsoft managed to change my whole windows install to use my Microsoft account to login, rather than my local account. It took me a while to work out what had happened and unfuck it all.
    • 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
      During the Windows 10 install they make it look like you needed to login with your MS account. They option to use a normal local login is right there but it’s named in some funny way so you don’t think that it’s the normal login. At first I thought this was just for the main admin account and let it slide, because I was only intending to use Windows for games (it’s not good for anything else). But when you want to create a second account, it tries to trick you into creating a new MS account. What a flaming POS.
      • vbezhenar 4y ago
        With Windows 11 there's no UI option to use local account at all. You need to press magic combination, launch cmd, execute some bat-file with unpronounceable name and reboot. Then this option appears. I mean, it's one Google search away, so not a big deal, but they do push hard for MS account.
• rwaksmunski 4y ago
  Windows 10 LTSC + Snappy Driver Installer Origin + Firefox + uBlock Origin + TinyWall removed my family PC support burden by 95%. Vast majority is used business class Lenovo hardware. No ads, no spyware, no bloat, no tracking, no telemetry, no viruses. Add an older, pre chip Brother laser printer/scanner and home computing for frugal non technical people is almost bearable.
• dreadedfuture 4y ago
  Question: why does the market fail so miserably in this respect? Why are all consumer grade electronics running closed sourced questionable code that you cannot alter? I need a laptop, a table and a phone. I have been looking for over a year and I cannot find anything I like. 0. I don't want arbitrary software running on my personal devices, fullstop. 1. I want to be able to run my preferred free software. 2. I want my preferred free software to be able to access all installed hardware and use it to its full capabilities. 3. I don't want to pay a $1000 premium to be able to do this. This is one of the biggest market failures of our generation. All we have is fake choice, but not a single manufacturer wants to deliver plain open hardware. If you look at buying a car you will end up in exactly the same situation. In fact all consumer hardware of all sorts has the same problem. RMS was right back then, but the problem has recently become much more serious. Back then it was only about laptops. Now I have to worry about my fridge spying on me.
  • xnorswap 4y ago
    > 3. I don't want to pay a $1000 premium to be able to do this. That part is I think selfish. I do want to pay a premium to be able to do all that, but that market doesn't really exist.
    • alias_neo 4y ago
      It's not selfish if they mean they "can't" rather than they "don't want". If someone doesn't want to spend $2000 instead of $1000 on something that does what they want/need better than the $1000 version; I'd argue that they don't really mean they "don't want" to, they mean they can't financially, whether literally or justifiably. I can't justify spending $2000 on a phone that does things I want it to do better than the $800 equivalent (which we shouldn't forget is also quite a premium to many), so I buy the "cheaper" one and "make it work". If the difference between $1000 and $2000 were inconsequential to me, then I don't see why I wouldn't "want" to pay that premium. So, I argue, GP isn't selfish as you put it, they just choose their words poorly on this point; or you take them too literally. I'd be interested to hear from GP in this regard.
    • fsflover 4y ago
• ekianjo 4y ago
  I know people dont want to hear that but none of these problems would happen if people installed Linux. Windows is just a bottomless pit of malware either by third parties or MS themselves
  • Tenoke 4y ago
    I've seen many younger people get tripped up too much with Linux laptop (typically installed/sold by a friend) when they do just fine on Windows. There's little chance the senior in question will do well if you had given them a linux machine.
    • gureddio 4y ago
      I think the distribution needs to be picked very carefully. I'd imagine most users would get on with Ubuntu without any issues
    • timbit42 4y ago
      If all they need is a web browser, any Linux distro is fine. If they need to install apps, then a bit of training is required to find the app store and how to install downloaded DEB files.
  • johannes1234321 4y ago
    Plain suers don't want to deal with an operating system. They expect that a machine they buy for $$$$ is useable for what it is supposed. (And if large computer vendors would start preinstalling Linux they'd add their crapware there to "build their relationship" with the customer and selling a few ads or whatever)
  • _dain_ 4y ago
    yeah that's technically correct, none of these problems would happen. there would just be different problems.
• etempleton 4y ago
  Windows is fine if you do the install yourself, but every major device manufacturer does this to some extent. When you issue a computer for work IT will almost always, without fail, emulate this by installing a bunch of their own junk spyware and “security” software. Reviewers of laptops do a fresh install of Windows before reviewing like that is normal consumer behavior.
• PeterStuer 4y ago
  To be fair the AMD based Lenovo Thinkpads we have were so good value for money we switched to buying them exclusively.
• teddyh 4y ago
  I have used Tron many times to successfully remove assorted junk from Windows installations: https://old.reddit.com/r/TronScript/ https://old.reddit.com/r/TronScript/
• apexalpha 4y ago
  My grandma bought a mid-prized Android phone. All she does is lookup recipes on Youtube and Whatsapp her family. After 2 months (!) she came to me with the phone. Somehow she now had ads on her lockscreen, her default browser was hijacked by some other browser app with ads, and multiple apps had persistent notifications and were running continuously. Among them AVG anti-virus, some cleanup tool... I have no idea how they got there. Probably because they pop-up in Ads with texts like "YOU NEED TO INSTALL THIS". My grandma can't differentiate between an Ad like that and a serious System update notification. It's stuff like this that leads people to just "give up" and buy an expensive Apple device. For all their faults at least they protect you from this kind of nonsense. The Lenovo is just the same, really. A profound disrespect for their own users and the usability of their own product.
  • whiddershins 4y ago
    what's messed up is these apps are in the play store, rated e for everybody (so parental controls can't filter them) and have 5 star ratings from thousands of users. Complete and utter failure on Google's part.
  • BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    I'm not sure how much protection this affords, but I'm aiming to only buy phones that are on the LineageOS support list, and can have their bootloader unlocked. Weird how things that the manufacturer would consider insecurities, eg unlocked bootloader, allow end users the kind of control that can increase security and privacy (admittedly, maybe conflating privacy and security). Highlighting the disconnect between industry security and user interest (even though users, by and large, aren't interested in their own interests).
    • Zak 4y ago
      I treat use of SafetyNet or attempting to detect root as actively malicious and give apps that do that 1-star ratings on Google Play. I realize there's a theoretical risk the OS could be compromised or malware could have superuser permissions, but my previous attempts to find any significant data breaches or user harm caused that way have come up empty. If anybody knows of one, I'd be interested to read about it.
• zaggynl 4y ago
  I would immediately reinstall a just bought laptop from scratch, as in through a Windows/Linux ISO, not through their own recovery, especially from Lenovo, they have been caught with Superfish adware/malware before: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/02/19/superfish-need-to-know/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/02/19/super... https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/ps500066-superfish-uninstall-instructions https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/ps500066-s...
  • sierkov 4y ago
    As a senior who can barely differentiate between cpu and a monitor, I'm sure you would.
    • zaggynl 4y ago
      That's fair, I would recommend a MacBook, Chromebook or iPad to senior folks, even though I loathe the companies, they're perfectly fine for those who do not want to tinker.
• Tade0 4y ago
  I bought an external monitor two months ago or so. Since then there were a total of three firmware updates, each one throwing out the display driver before showing the update dialog which, when closed without confirmation, had to be fished out of the bloatware again for the procedure to continue and actually re-install the drivers. My question is, why does a monitor even need firmware updates? I didn't gain any features, nor did I get an update report.
• stavros 4y ago
  I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I am really satisfied with my Framework laptop. It came with the RAM not installed, I assume so they'd "force" me to open it up and familiarize myself with the process. It took all of one minute to watch their video, unscrew five screws, pop the keyboard out and install the RAM. The machine itself feels really solid, I was expecting a few rough edges from a first-time manufacturer, but it feels as good as my old Macbook Air did. I just love it, and I am really enjoying how repairable it is. All the stuff has stickers and QR codes internally to explain what components are and link you to how-to videos. Well worth whatever premium I paid for it, if it ensures that the company continues to make products.
  • pmontra 4y ago
    I'm just waiting for them to build a 15" model and ship to Europe. If they are reading this thread, an option with no numberpad and hardware buttons on the touchpad. I'm paying an extra for that. The language of the keyboard is much less important. Thanks.
    • bruce343434 4y ago
      I'd buy that, given the keyboard would have an ANSI layout.
  • internalfx 4y ago
    Agreed, I'm loving mine so far. For consumer friendly hardware, frame.work is where it's at.
• djoldman 4y ago
  What I don't understand is: where is the market failure? Ostensibly in a "well-functioning" market, selling computers that become very slow would make people not buy them. Is there no better competition? If there is better, why aren't they winning?
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• squeaky-clean 4y ago
  I have a razer laptop that gets 20-30% higher FPS when you uninstall all the razer crapware. You'd think a "gaming" brand would value performance, though I did put gaming in quotes because razer is definitely more of an aesthetics brand today. The hardware is great* but the software kneecaps it. I'm sure most people buying a gaming laptop aren't doing a full windows re-install on it and are losing out on noticeable performance amounts. * It could definitely use more ventilation, they're aiming too much for the macbook look but on factory overlcocked i7 that doesn't work well.
  • lrem 4y ago
    "Gaming" is aesthetics, really. As evidenced by all the "gaming" Chromebooks.
    • david_allison 4y ago
      Unfair blanket statement. I've been really impressed from everything I've seen coming from XMG
  • _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Razer keyboard. Never ever Razer again....
• GuB-42 4y ago
  Thankfully, it is a laptop (presumably a Windows PC), not a phone or tablet. It may be full of junk, but you can remove it, reinstall a fresh copy of Windows, and there is a good chance it can be fully functional on Linux too. I don't know how it is built but 10 years from now, there is a good chance it will continue to work as a useful computer, with OS security updates. It doesn't mean there isn't a problem with Lenovo installing crapware, and not everyone is tech savvy, but that senior just had to hand out the computer to someone who is, and he solved his problem. Now, with phones and tablets, you can't do that. You are stuck with the manufacturer's OS. Sometimes, when the manufacturer is nice enough and there is an active community, you can install third party ROMs, but often with significant loss of functionality: lower quality camera, some apps refusing to install, etc... I am a bit worried about Apple right now, they are making their laptops more and more phone-like. Apple has a rather good UX, and a consistent ecosystem that their users love, so, fine. But once Apple starts to do something, other manufacturers (PC, Android, ...) have a nasty tendency to copy, even the worst parts, and do it poorly on top of that.
• ptero 4y ago
  In my view Google and Facebook turned evil the same way Microsoft did in the mid-1990s, switching from building technological improvements to using vast resources to dictate how each personal compute node should be run and how one could access the internet. But in the 1990s many developers hated it and actually used and contributed to alternatives, which eventually brought other options, from Linux to Firefox. I see no such work now, as big tech got better at buying competing tech and engineering talent, so I am not very optimistic. Maybe if the next generation is not so smartphone obsessed.
• oriettaxx 4y ago
  Can it be that Lenovo makes more money with that crap than selling hardware?
• victor106 4y ago
  Steve Jobs decision to not license the OS to OEM’s is so fu*ing awesome. Reading stories makes you think how right that decision is.
• xavxav 4y ago
  The digital divide is a major problem today, and manifests all over the place, whether it’s spyware like this laptop, issues with phones or just interacting with service providers. I recently tried helping my aunt switch internet providers to one 50% cheaper, I called, set everything up, it was all finalized they just needed to come switch the connection over. After I left, she made a call to the company to switch the appointment and ended up getting the contract cancelled, then stuck in limbo and a month later I still haven’t been able to get it fixed. It’s impressive how if someone doesn’t know the right phrases and things to say, you end up in digital purgatory where no one can help you.
• newaccount2021 4y ago
• supportlocal4h 4y ago
  My employer standardized to iPhones. Recently I have been getting notifications that my Netflix account has been suspended. It greatly irritates me that Apple is sharing profile information with Netflix. I have never used Netflix on my iPhone and don't even have the app installed. Worse, no matter how many times I respond to the notification, my account keeps getting suspended. I never had a Netflix problem before the iPhone. So, giving up and buying an expensive Apple device does not protect you from life. P.S. Please don't try to educate me on HN to recognize the difference between a system notification and a scam text message.
  • fazfq 4y ago
    What app is sending that notification?
    • supportlocal4h 4y ago
      It's a scam text message. But your grandma can't tell the difference. It just illustrates that Apple is not a silver bullet. In the end, there is no substitute for education.
      • saagarjha 4y ago
        Have you considered writing your comments in a way that makes it clear what you actually mean? Because your top level comment, which I take to understand was written from the point of view of this grandma, lacked the context to make this discernible until you had to write this explanation.
  • donatj 4y ago
    I don’t see any reason to believe the two things are related. > It greatly irritates me that Apple is sharing profile information with Netflix That’s not a thing.
    • supportlocal4h 4y ago
      No, it is not a thing except in the mind of a confused ill-informed customer. There is only so much Apple or anyone else can do to protect their users. If somebody sends you instructions on how to convert your life savings to Bitcoin and put it in their wallet, owning an Apple device won't protect you. Advocating that buying expensive Apple products saves you from vampires is also a scam.
• hpaavola 4y ago
  Asus has a line of products called Asus Pure. Those are the same Asus laptops as their "normal" ones, but Pure models do not have any 3rd party software, no trialware, no test versions etc. Plain Windows, nothing else. But I think those are only available in Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/fi/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/fi/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/se/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/se/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/dk/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/dk/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/no/index.html https://www.asus.com/event/ASUS_PURE/no/index.html At least us, en, gb, es, it, and de versions the the URL did not work. Not sure why those are not available everywhere, but those are the only laptops I buy for my parents. EDIT: The marketing material on those pages says: "ASUS PURE comes without pre-installed third-party software, trial versions and apps. You choose what you install on your machine. ASUS PURE is designed for fast and optimal performance by freeing up memory and CPU power. The ASUS PURE laptop starts up faster and the machine feels like new for longer. Your computer is protected by Microsoft's Windows Defender antivirus program and a firewall that receives regular updates and does not include annual fees. Your ASUS PURE laptop is therefore always safe." Like, why would anyone want to have it any other way? What's the benefit for us customers to have all that crapware installed when it does no good for us?
  • bobsmooth 4y ago
    >What's the benefit for us customers to have all that crapware installed when it does no good for us? A cheaper laptop.
  • TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
    I think you've stumbled on the answer everyone is searching for here. I'm certain that these specific SKU's exist only in these specific countries because of legislation. We could do the same thing in the US, but companies are running our government, so... no bueno.
• SkipperCat 4y ago
  This is why I buy Apple laptops. They always work and come with zero bloatware. You can buy the cheapest laptop they sell, and it will work effortlessly for email, web surfing and most other generic tasks. Their lack of bloat shows in their hardware specs. I've worked on Dell laptops and they were spec'd out at 64GB. My latest MacBook Pro has 16GB and its feels MORE responsive than the Dell computer. Each MacBook Pro and MacBook Air I've purchased has also lasted many more years than my friends HP, Dell or Lenovo laptops. Honestly, the only reason I typically upgrade my laptop every 4 or 5 years is because I just want something new. Apple products cost more, but given their full lifecycle, I think they're cheaper to own than most other brands.
  • nikau 4y ago
    Likewise buy a business variant of a Windows laptop and also don't have junk installed.
  • alden5 4y ago
    chess on macos is protected by sip and is practically unremovable, so much for a bloat-free experience /s
• codeulike 4y ago
  "It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. You're completely capable of making sense of this machine. It's just that some asshole got a bonus for trying to confuse you so a little graph would go up." Great quote
• ratorx 4y ago
  I don’t even think the real issue here is the crapware. Sure, the laptop would be a lot better without it, but if it subsidises cost, then you could make a case for it. I think the bigger issue is the lack of quality control. If you want to put crapware on a device and sell it to people, at least make sure it is moderately efficient and test that the final product is usable. If the final product is not fit for function, it should not be sold (or alternatively no one should buy it). In this specific case, it’s really impressive how they’ve made surveillance software (which shouldn’t need to do THAT much) so resource hungry. I don’t think selling utter shit that’s not fit for purpose is a software/hardware industry thing though.
• magpi3 4y ago
  Maxing out the RAM on any PC you buy is probably the easiest solution. Modern CPUs are fast, and I can't imagine a user having this much trouble unless there was hardware swapping. Which leads me to a question: is virtual memory even a good idea with most PCs? Once your computer starts swapping heavily, it's over. I think I would prefer an informative kernel panic.
  • nicce 4y ago
    You are suggesting that we are OK with programs using excessive amount of resources or doing things we don’t want? All advantages on getting better hardware in the past decade goes straight down the drain if compensate by just getting more RAM.
• hyperman1 4y ago
  The problem: Every time you help someone with issues like these, you enable the malware vendor. Consider the options of the senior in question: 1) Find someone 'good with technology'. 2) Be very unhappy with the laptop, and tell everyone how he bought an €500 brick. People listen to each other. They won't be fooled twice. Lenovo/Microsoft/.. would soon stop bundling this crap if there were no helpfull people. As an analogy: You buy a car. It tops out at 5km/h because it is pulling a huge trailer that either bleeps ads or worse is just a dump for useless rocks. Do you expect tech savy helpers to decouple the trailer and accept that as how things are, or blame the manufacturers for their stupidity and greed.
• shadowgovt 4y ago
  Perhaps ironically given the thread author's concerns about surveillance, I solved the computing problems of my elderly relatives by switching them to Chromebooks. They really just use the computer to browse the internet anyway. The fact that there's no room for malicious actors to install crap on that architecture to interfere with the user experience because the user experiences completely dominated by one megacorporation's notion of how the computer should work has been a Godsend for maintenance of their machine. Now, the Android phone is an entirely different story, unfortunately.
• isitmadeofglass 4y ago
  My advice is that even if you hate Apple with a passion, tell your seniors and less tech savvy friends and family to get a Mac. Just to avoid this whole scenario. Unless you like being the “while your here could you look at my laptop” person of cause then just keep recommending buying the cheapest laptop on display running windows+pre installed brand crap ware.
  • c5karl 4y ago
    Or a Chromebook. If you don't need rich client Windows software, a cheapie Chromebook will meet all your needs. It will be fast out of the box and will stay fast.
  • FunnyLookinHat 4y ago
    I think the same advice works for Chromebooks. Sure, you're still being "tracked" - but let's be honest, that's happening on the web for most users one way or another. In most cases, seniors need a consistent, reliable browser - and nothing else. That's not to say a $250 Chromebook is the solution, but a $500 one (equal to the value of the laptop in the story) would be exceptional compared to any Windows experience with the same hardware.
• mensetmanusman 4y ago
  This is why everyone is buying grandma and grandpa iPads to video chat.
• taurath 4y ago
  Welcome to the US service economy, where providing value is only a minor speedbump in monetizing literally everything and everyone without any regard for consequences or harm.
• ricardobayes 4y ago
  Had a similar experience, I have one that I installed windows on myself, and it's fast. I have one, that is three generations ahead in CPU, but came with a pre-installed windows. After booting, it basically became unresponsive for a solid minute. Removing the built-in software helped so now it's fast.
• motohagiography 4y ago
  Imagining what a bootable linux distribution for seniors might look like from a feature perspective. - skeumorphic icons - familiar light colours - large fonts - emphasis on storage and management of images and videos, archiving service - a support app that goes right to a irc channel. - journaling for remote support, wonder what else. Kind of like android was intended to be before google's ecosystem became a landfill. They didn't invent poverty for the internet, but they scaled it as a service for people who prey on those who are less advantaged.
  • gureddio 4y ago
    I was thinking this exact thing. A distro, or flavour of some distro purely for seniors. There may already be one out there
• fleddr 4y ago
  Just give up on low-end Windows laptops in combination with non-savvy users. Give them an iPad instead. Starts instantly, not in 10 minutes. Great battery life. Automatic backups when properly enabled. Far less security and malware risks. Few to none resource hogs slowing down the entire system. Not really possible to get a corrupt system as seems inevitable on Windows. Even then you'll have some support. Like that time my mum called to say it's completely broken, doesn't turn on. It turned on just fine, she forgot her password.
  • SamuelAdams 4y ago
    I do the same thing with my parents. They use their iPhone for pretty much everything and I get to spend thanksgiving talking to family rather than fixing their tech. People complain about Apple having a closed ecosystem, but doing so disables all the spying / crapware that plagues Windows and Android.
• bakugo 4y ago
  I'm so tired of clicking on posts like this expecting a civilized discussion on how things like this should be stopped, possibly regulated, and instead finding dozens of comments that read like they were written by Apple marketers.
  • taumoeba 4y ago
    I think there’s room to have this discussion while simultaneously applauding the one major computer company that avoids these problems.
    • willeum 4y ago
      It's really trading one set of problems for another
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • sdfhbdf 4y ago
    I’m really not sure how you concluded that Apple is astroturfing here. Maybe I’m biased or blind but I think it’s this kind of company that really avoid this way of promotion. It’s also one of the tech giants. They don’t need to market to a site full of people that got a macbook from their employer to develop software on.
  • maximus-decimus 4y ago
    regulating how? The amount of bloatware? The responsiveness of the computer? The performance of the programs installed by default?
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• jwalton 4y ago
  It is somewhat ironic that this is posted on Twitter, where if I try to read it, once I scroll down too far Twitter demands I create an account to keep reading.
  • timbit42 4y ago
    Use Nitter.net or the "Nitter Redirect" web browser add-on to have twitter links automatically redirect to nitter.net.
• noirchen 4y ago
  I still remember when I bought my first sony vaio in about 2004, running on Windows XP in Japanese, I was just appalled to find that a whole family of useless crap softwares pre-installed. There was an app that notifies me when the battery was fully charged with a dolce female sound "Batteri no shuuden wa kanrio shimashita". I tried to reinstall the system with the recovery CD, but all these softwares were also installed. Years later when I visited in Japan again, I wanted to buy another sony vaio, and asked the people to give me one with clean windows system. They did not have one with clean system, but they showed me that there were only a few harmless pre-installed apps, and they were easy to remove.
• xtracto 4y ago
  And that's the reason why I love Linux. Even though I complain a lot about several of its shortcomings, I am a happy user. I just recently installed Mint it in a 2011 Macbookpro , and it is great.
• skot9000 4y ago
  I think a lot of internet connected hardware is sold cheaper than it would be otherwise just so they can get some consumer data harvesting software into your life. ie, that laptop would be more expensive without the junky pre-installed software. Nothing new, and still a shame they don’t let consumers know what’s going on. It’s even more of a shame when expensive things do it too —- like cars.
• lizknope 4y ago
  I realize that not everyone is technically capable of doing this but my 3 suggestions are: 1. Wipe Windows and install Linux 2. Wipe Windows, download the Windows .iso image or buy media from Microsoft and install that so there is no extra crap 3. Buy a Mac I realize that it is ridiculous to buy a brand new windows PC and it is unusable and you have to do a bunch of stuff yourself to make it usable but that is the state of much of the PC industry. Vote with your wallet or find a technically capable friend to help.
• krylon 4y ago
  Ethics and privacy aside, I just find it plain weird that hardware vendor would deliberate make their own product worse like that. And this is not the first time Lenovo has done something like this, apparently they did face any consequences. When I still worked as a sysadmin/support person, the ritual for preparing a new PC for use included replacing the preinstalled Windows 8/8.1 with a fresh install of Windows 7 from a vanilla installation medium. This was in part because the software our SCADA people used required Windows 7, but we did it to all PCs just to get rid of the useless crap vendors would ship with their machines. Fortunately, the Windows 8/8.1 Pro license allowed us to do that. But I don't know if the Home license does, and frankly, you cannot expect non-tech people to do that. As a long-time Linux/BSD user on my private machines, I am glad I don't have to deal with these problems in my spare time, but I am part of a pretty small minority in this regard. I remember reading a story about the development of the Apple Macintosh and its OS, and one developer talked about how Steve Jobs gave him a hard time about the time it took the machine to boot. Even if you shave off just one second, he argued, imagine how much time that saves all the users over the lifetime of their computers. And now imagine how much time is wasted, in total, because of hardware vendors sabotaging their own products.
• sylens 4y ago
  Is it any wonder why Apple has been so successful with the iPhone, iPad, and their services? I can't stand the iron grip they have on the App Store, but on the other hand - traditional, wide open computing environments have become so hostile to users in terms of data collection and tracking. If I was a non-technical person who had to use this Lenovo laptop mentioned in the tweet thread, being given an iPad would feel like water in a desert.
  • woojoo666 4y ago
    Apple cares about their quality and brand image more than they care about advertising money. A very smart move on their part
• elif 4y ago
  A similar annecdote, my wife's work laptop is a Lenovo and it had a part fail under warranty. The Lenovo technician that showed up was 19 years old and said "wow that must be an old laptop!" And proceeded to replace the wrong part, breaking something else in the process. The Lenovo laptop is a 2021 model. Now I'm scared that future generations will regard technology as branded magic. This was his job.
  • gs17 4y ago
    I'm also a bit scared. Sent mine in to Lenovo with an obvious hardware fault (rebooting randomly, happened under both Windows and Linux) explained to them. They reinstalled Windows and sent it back still broken. The second round I called in and got to talk to a guy who had no idea how they sent it back like that, who got it fixed, but sounds like the first attempt wasn't even the worst it could be.
• hunter-gatherer 4y ago
  From the thread: > Maybe the most frustrating thing for me is how often I'm working with people who are apologetic and unsure BECAUSE of these derailments > They think it's their fault! They think they're not capable of doing things BECAUSE they keep getting fucked with by this user-hostile crap So much this. I have similar conversations with my family all the time. My mom actually uses a hoke computer for business related stuff more than anybody. At one point a few years back after some Windows update that messed some things up I booted a vanilla linux mint off a USB and had her play around with it. She liked it because it was simple and easy to understand, so she's been with thay for a few years.
  • hannofcart 4y ago
    I've had the exact same experience. Bought a cheap ultrabook (whatever was within my wherewithal back then) and wiped everything. Put Linux mint on it and gave it to my mom. After years of struggling with Windows she got a user interface where she was comfortable in for around 2 years. My brother bought her a "better" laptop with standard issue Windows bloatware. She hated it and kept asking for Linux Mint. She said that the Windows UI was too confusing.
• colanderman 4y ago
  Similarly, this kilobyte of text took over half a minute to load and render (on Firefox Mobile). Slower than a 33k modem. Presumably Twitter's attempt to steer me toward using their app for better surveillance.
  • TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
    When it comes to a web service like Twitter, I don't think you're saving anything either way.
• 737min 4y ago
  The bigger point is that in case of Lenovo, this “surveillance turf” is part of Xi’s & CCP’s growing digital empire. It’s worse than incompetence and greed, it’s far more serious.
• z9znz 4y ago
  Don't give anyone you care about (who is not a techie) a Windows machine. Especially if you'll have to support it. At this point, the best thing for a "typical" user is a Chromebook, or better yet one of the few Chrome desktop boxes. For $600 you can have a very functional Chrome machine with a giant monitor. And remote-management + screen sharing is baked in. The worst is visiting a Best Buy (or similar electronics store) and hearing a neophyte go up to a sales clerk and say, "I want to buy a computer". I can't stay near, because the discussion I will hear will kill me.
• vonwoodson 4y ago
  Many people talking about buying Macs or iPads on this thread. Ok, I get it. But, GNU/Linux is a very good option for everyone. GNU/Linux is not at all as difficult as it used to be. If you want to be able to support you folks without flying to Arizona, how about ssh and X forwarding? (Although, you should still visit your folks more.) How about the fact that 12+ year old hardware still works wonderfully with a GNU/Linux OS, and not getting your folks on the 5-year release cycle Apple wants you on? Anyway… I understand the OP’s concerns, and I feel the same way. Technology has, for my entire life, done nothing but throw more and more mud in my face. Without a doubt, there are people here on HN who are contributing to this problem; and, where no raindrop considers itself responsible for the flood, we as a community are the ones complicit in this “make the little graph go up” scheme the money-bugs have beset upon the world. I see this stemming from the core issue, related to my GNU/Linux side-bar at the top of this post, is that there isn’t actually money to be made off custom software. If there was ever a time this was true, it is long over. Companies make money: 1)selling things, and software makes those things cheaper 2)selling things, and software makes selling those things cheaper 3)selling information, and software makes gathering that information cheaper 4)selling information, and software makes that information creation feasible 5)selling art, and software is the medium Where 4&5 are in that realm of “selling custom software”, I believe that these are rank ordered in terms of profitability and that 4&5’s profitability is directly tied to the ability to properly exploit 3. To restate the OP’s position, technology is not fun anymore. So, dare I say again that we all are complicit in this awful way of doing business. It’s not fun and it’s not fun because we have to make money. And it’s not fun because we can only make money if we’re doing one of these things I’ve listed (there may be more, but this is a comment, not an article). And, so, we have to make money by making life worse for people who use our technology. We have to make money to live. We have to make peoples lives worse… in order to live. We live off the suffering of others… This is the most sadistic realization. “But, isn’t that the natural order? Eating things to survive?” asked noone, because nobody reading a comment section would ever be so thoughtful. No, we don’t eat our fellow man. Instead, here, we torment the each other and the elderly with beeps-and-boops, pop-up adds for cheap consumer goods make by slaves, surveillance and targeted manipulations, and scary threats of scam artistry. And, as the OP says, we leave consumers to feel like it is their fault for not buying a $2,500 Apple, or accepting a 700-page EULA, or gasp not following ever god-damned detail of computing news and technology so that they can defend themselves for our injudiciousness onsLaUHTt Of EvER NeW WAyS TO SQUEEZE THEM FOR EVERY DAMNED PENNY!!!11 maniacal laughter continues for several moments, before awkwardly subsiding I could try to pretend that capitalism is ”the problem” or that we could “solve this” with better security and privacy laws. I’ve become to fatalist for that. If there’s a source of food, nature evolves something to consume it and if there’s a source of profit, the market “social evolution”s a way to extract it. So, I see no hope here. And, as is my experience working with software people over the last 30 years, we are truly awful social rejects anyway who do not exalt compassion or empathy as well as being a people who marvel in how dumb everyone else is and how masterfully we can create our techno-world better than God could
• gowld 4y ago
  Hard to read Twitter ramble... since this is Hacker News, odesn't anyone know the specific Lenovo crapware issue he is referring to?
• e12e 4y ago
  > Getting lots of questions about how to do this on Lenovo and other machines. YMMV, but here's what I did: > Add/Remove Programs, in Windows. Then I found everything from Lenovo and uninstalled. These days you can usually get at the oem license key for windows - I would recommend just doing a clean install of windows 10 (possibly 7) from Microsoft install media. Just make sure to make a backup of user data. IMNHO that's easier and better than playing wack-a-mole. And if the user can afford it - just upgrade to a pro license while you're at it. For users on a budget - I would probably recommend Ubuntu LTS or another stable desktop distro.
• trinsic2 4y ago
  If he thinks that's bad Lenovo installs an ad framework on there most recent laptops that is not uninstable from add/remove. there is a specific command that you have to use to uninstall it. It took me about 30 mins googling for the right keywords to find it. When that kind of think starts happening. You know there's a problem in the industry.
  • timbit42 4y ago
    Just reinstall Windows before the first boot. I've been doing that for over 20 years. Works great.
• LeonB 4y ago
  The amount of crapware installed on a new laptop shows that even when you pay for a product, sometimes it still turns out that you are the product.
• Sverigevader 4y ago
  I'd like to weigh in here as well. My father uses a Windows 10 laptop, and a Samsung Android phone. The biggest pain point is that Windows sometimes decides to do an update, and upon restart, shows a splash screen with a wizard which wants you to make decisions and read/understand a few things. He has no idea what going on or if something will break, or if he actually did something wrong. I solve this via WhatsApp video calls "quickly", and then have to explain to him for 5-10 minutes how it's not his fault. When it comes to the phone, all he essentially uses it for is YouTube and WhatsApp. When I visited a while back an OTA update had showed up and I promptly started to install it. While it downloaded i found ELEVEN registry cleaner derivatives installed on his phone. He couldn't have gotten this from anywhere other than YouTube. Again I have to hear this; "I'm so sorry son, you know we have no idea what's going on, please forgive us for causing you so much trouble." I know they feel guilty for not knowing how to handle this stuff themselves and wish they didn't have to "bother" me so much. In my eyes everyday tech took a gigantic leap from having a TV with a remote to requiring people to be super users in tremendously more complex software/hardware. They don't even stand a chance...
• alistairSH 4y ago
  Why wouldn't the author re-install Windows without the bloatware? Seems easier and more likely to succeed than trying to find every single piece of garbage Lenovo installed. Crap like this is one of the main reasons my household went 100% Apple well over a decade ago. Apple isn't perfect, but after doing software all day at work, the last thing I want is to spend time debugging shitty software on a $500 Windows laptop.
  • Maxburn 4y ago
    A very disruptive to the user, B seems like he was up against a time limit according to the thread from the little I read.
• cratermoon 4y ago
  "you can smell some dickweasel's little OKR in the inexplicable frustrations of someone who just wants to use their laptop, phone, tablet" Enough said.
• commandlinefan 4y ago
  > how often you can smell some dickweasel's little OKR in the inexplicable frustrations ... and he's the guy that just got promoted.
• jef_leppard 4y ago
  This is why I tell every senior or “muggle” I know to just get an iPad for their computing needs. Sandboxed. Cheap. Backs everything up for you. Totally managed experience. I’ve switched numerous folks in that demographic over and have never once heard anything but rave reviews. F*ck PC’s and the entire race to the bottom market they represent.
  • Maxburn 4y ago
    That was the right move for my mom, mostly. Not perfect and she’s completely unable to remember passwords so I’m concerned she will brick it one of these days. Personally I have one of these Lenovo’s and a default install of windows helped tremendously. I also went with linux mint on it to just completely get out of that s** show. So much lighter weight, fast. Not completely stable though, Vivaldi and firefox have some crashing and high CPU issues on it.
• nicbou 4y ago
  It's crazy how... non-consensual technology has gotten.
  • TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
    It's just walled gardens, all the way down now. There's apparently no money to be made in interoperability.
• seltzered_ 4y ago
  Lenovo has been doing this junk for well over a decade - remember Superfish (2015) - https://slate.com/technology/2015/02/lenovo-superfish-scandal-why-its-one-of-the-worst-consumer-computing-screw-ups-ever.html https://slate.com/technology/2015/02/lenovo-superfish-scanda... , https://thenextweb.com/news/lenovos-bundled-adware-also-comes-worrying-security-hole https://thenextweb.com/news/lenovos-bundled-adware-also-come... . I personally remember returning a Lenovo Yoga family had (primarily due to windows 8 accessibility issues with font sizes) and switching to a mac.
• forgotmypw17 4y ago
  https://nitter.kavin.rocks/i/status/1583169632516509697 https://nitter.kavin.rocks/i/status/1583169632516509697
• NoImmatureAdHom 4y ago
  Wipe your machine and install Linux. It's all very easy these days. You don't need all that proprietary spyware garbage, you just think you do. (They put a lot of marketing $ into making you believe that.) If you really, really need a particular piece of garbage install a castrated version of Win 7 or 10 in a VM. Run GrapheneOS on your phone. Buy hardware from people working to make it open, like Purism, Frame.work, Pine64, or Star Labs.
• haxorito 4y ago
  Every company from here to end of the universe in competition of who can have the most intrusive surveillance shoved down uses throats. It use to be enough to just wipe newly bought laptop to remove manufacturers spyware, but now it comes with OS itself and packaged into big browsers.
• Merad 4y ago
  The topic of seniors and tech is something I despair over quite frequently. My own dad is 75. He’s by no means a genius, but he isn’t a stupid man (though he has seen significant cognitive decline in recent years). He worked in finance most of his career so he was working with computers fairly early on and throughout most of his career. We had a home PC by 1989, and he spent a lot of time in the 90s messing with DOS and Windows 95 and programming with C as a hobby. These days he has an iPhone and iPad that I got him because of accessibility and ease of use, a Windows PC, and a Roku (he used the Hulu local tv service instead of cable). On all of those devices he can only do the basics and is completely helpless if something unexpected happens. Just a few days ago he was watching a show on Prime Video, accidentally skipped to the next episode, and couldn’t figure out how to navigate back. On his iDevices he routinely gets confused trying trying to look at messages, i think because he’s used to seeing/answering them through notifications and doesn’t understand the layout of the messages app. He also has a lot of frustration with the iDevices due to arthritis in his hands. On his PC he’s been using Quicken to track his finances for probably two decades, and last year he ask me to help set up online download of his accounts to make the reconciliation easier. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but every month or two now I have to sit down with him and spend an hour unravelling a mess he created due to getting confused about Quicken’s process for matching downloaded transactions with those he manually entered in the register. I could go on and on with examples, but the question I ponder over is whether or not there’s a fundamental difference between his generation that didn’t grow up with technology and the younger generations that did. Will technology move on and change so that even those of us who a tech savvy today are hopelessly outclassed in 30-40 years? Or are have our brains been wired differently to make us more adaptable? I don’t have answers and I’m rambling at this point, but I feel like something has to give. For seniors today technology is mostly a convenience (they can choose to largely ignore it if they want to) but by the time we reach their age I don’t think that will be the case.
  • OkayPhysicist 4y ago
    The "fundamental difference", in my observations, is a willingness to explore interfaces. I reckon it's because before computers, most devices were relatively single-purpose, and had a limited interface that you were expected to either be already familiar with, or could get away with a very limited understanding of (how many people used more than 5 buttons on their tv remotes?). Wandering off the beaten path was either not possible, or likely to mess something up. Computers, on the other hand, are wildly more complex, and thus their interfaces need to do a lot more. Finding what you want to do involves some level of exploring the interface, which comes naturally to, say a child introduced to a computer, but grates against the learned behavior of someone who's only interacted with a much simpler world.
• jrm4 4y ago
  Linux. Linux Linux Linux. Free and Open Source Software. This is the baseline. I get that it's hard and there are issues. But if this isn't the baseline, there's no chance elsewhere.
• lbotos 4y ago
  I only boot windows to play Counter-strike. I just got a new video card and wanted to get into task manager but I forgot what it was called. I searched "activity monitor" in the little search box, and the top most result was definitely a program to install from the microsoft store. If I was a novice, I might click that and find myself frustrated that my computer is trying to get me to buy something...
• up2isomorphism 4y ago
  There is no choice because the users made them to do so, since market shows quality won’t keep you in the business like what IBM think pads did in the past. Most of the customers WANTS NEW laptop every couple of years even there is no real point to change.
  • TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
    Bologna. Customers want to NEVER migrate to a new device if they don't have to. These low-end, piece-of-crap, plastic machines simply do not LAST more than a few years, before the hinge won't hold the screen up, or the keys start falling off, or the battery won't hold a change. My wife complained about the cost when I replaced a busted up Asus laptop with our first MacBook Air. The PC was $500, and lasted 4 years. The Air was $900 (refurb), and lasted 11. Our house is filled with Apple tech now.
• stevespang 4y ago
• a_square_peg 4y ago
  I think about this a lot and one thought experiment would be to imagine yourself time travelling 10 years into the future and question if you would know how to use email or phone without being confused. I’m pretty sure everyone on HN is considered as tech-savvy as one would get but I’d also imagine that many people would be lost.
• uses 4y ago
  Wow, this is still going on? I remember it being the case for Windows laptops and pre-builts ~15-20 years ago. I've been using self-built desktop PCs and Apple laptops for so long I've become out of touch. I'm - somehow - surprised this is still going on.
• brundolf 4y ago
  These days I simply can't recommend anyone (especially nontechnical people) buy a computing device that isn't either: - An Apple device - First-party (Microsoft Surface, Pixel phone, etc) - Running Linux (assuming they can deal with everything else that comes with that) Even these aren't perfect, but everything else I assume to be hot garbage unless you're planning to install your own OS anyway. The problem, though, is that this mostly excludes the real budget-tier devices (at least for nontechnical folks), which is unfair to those who can't afford anything else Burn it all down
  • nrki 4y ago
    Anecdotally, I purchased a surface pro 7 and the ridiculous number of unexpected automatic updates and reboots without warning (overnight) lost me a bunch of data. Luckily it wasn't work related, but it has continued my deep-seated hatred of the MS "user experience". Don't get me started on the tracking & surveillance crap built into Windows 10+. It was okay after about a year of random reboots. It's a shame because MS was looking to become "better", but they're just better at increasing their bottom line at the expense of user data and their privacy. Software development and everything feeding into it should have a code of ethics like other professions: medical, law, engineering. I don't know how it will survive long-term without losing trust. But then again it's been limping on from scandal to breach to incident to overreach for decades now.
    • woojoo666 4y ago
      > Don't get me started on the tracking & surveillance crap built into Windows 10+. Doesn't MacOS have the same amount of telemetry? I guess it is rather hard to quantify, but MacOS still does collects a lot of data
    • LionTamer 4y ago
      Software development actually does have a code of ethics [0] (I learned about it through a university assignment in a software design class). [0]: https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/software-engineering-code/ https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/software-engineering-c...
    • 4y ago
• lizardactivist 4y ago
  I don't buy it. Most likely the machine had not been wiped and reinstalled, and there was some real malware on it (probably a crypto-miner of some kind). It makes no sense that Lenovo's dev teams would add bloatware to a machine to the point it literally crawls, and then say "yeah, this works great" and sign off on it for manufacturing. My own experience of Lenovo is the opposite: snappy and fast even on low-end hardware with integrated graphics, many months between needed firmware updates, and the machines are always fairly priced for what you get.
  • aaron695 4y ago
• smoldesu 4y ago
  There's a reason Lenovo's biggest fans are all Linux users.
  • timbit42 4y ago
    ...or reinstalled Windows before booting the preinstalled Windows.
  • epakai 4y ago
    These aren't the Thinkpads power users usually buy. The bloatware machines are generally their consumer lines. I use the Lenovo Vantage update app that I think the thread is talking about on my own dual boot Thinkpad. It's a particularly slow app with pointless animations to look good. It makes warranty info prominent to try to sell customers on an extended one, and has some other 'useless to power user' features. However it only runs when I run it, and I'm just there for the firmware updates. I expect the consumer line also includes other bloat beyond that though, or enables mis-features to 'protect' the user.
• SpaceManNabs 4y ago
  I stopped using Windows because I was tired of Windows doing updates / telemetrics without my control when I was playing games or waiting for code to run over night. I was tired of other technically minded people telling me that I was being unreasonable when I wouldn't have those issues on Ubuntu... Sometimes I have to switch to my windows partition to use some software and it will sometimes update, completely messing up my bootloader until I get off my behind and load grub from a USB stick.
• tekchip 4y ago
  My Dad has 2 old laptops. Both perfectly serviceable but dog slow due to Windows 10 BS. I've been called to help get them back in a usable performance state on several occasions. A combination of MSs own stuff and third party software bogging things down. Installed Pop_OS 6 months ago and haven't heard from him about those machines since. Linux is the way forward.
  • TheFreim 4y ago
    I got my grandfather a laptop and loaded a Linux distribution on it. With a little bit of planning I was able to create a set of desktop entries to allow him to instantly open the applications he needs, on top of that I created a basic html landing page to take him to news/email/&c. It was a breeze to set up and it has allowed him to actually use his computer. On windows I would have had to constsntly fight against it, with this setup I am in control in a way that let's me craft an experience that fits his needs.
• alanh 4y ago
  Hmm, did _danilo block threadreaderapp? I get an error trying to run this thread through it
• dehrmann 4y ago
  What's funny is Lenovo is hurting themselves in the long run on this. Every time there's an experience from someone who wants to check emails and watch Youtube, I'd recommend their next computer be an iPad. You can see this in long-term computer buying trends. PCs (and Macs) are overly complicated for 99% of what 99% of people want to do, and PCs make it worse with bloatware.
• barbarbar 4y ago
  It seems like I have the exact same issue on my mothers computer - the only diff is that it is an HP. It is more or less unusable and only a couple of years old.
• chermanowicz 4y ago
  Is there a bloatware app that one can run that identifies all the garbage on a pc and removes it?
  • timbit42 4y ago
    I remember there being one but I forget the name and can't find it now. I just reinstall Windows before the first boot.
    • jonas-w 4y ago
      I've heard of tronscript [0], never used it but maybe this is what you meant. [0] https://github.com/bmrf/tron/ https://github.com/bmrf/tron/
      • timbit42 4y ago
        No, I saw that when I was looking but it was something else. It was originally written for Windows XP so the project is probably dead now.
• bigmattystyles 4y ago
  I ran into bloatware with Dell on their business line (to a small business) so there was no in house IT to create a custom image - the machines were unusable. It's ridiculous.
• nnm 4y ago
  I really hope they (non-tech folks) know that a $300-$600 chromebook is way better.
• omar_alt 4y ago
  As much as I appreciate my x220’s god knows what they would be like if I hadn’t replaced the stock OS. Thank god Ubuntu aren’t shipping Lenovo Vantage just yet
• emadabdulrahim 4y ago
  I would actually love to volunteer to help seniors with tech related stuff but I can't for the life of me find an opportunity. I looked online and sign up for different groups but never got a request or email.
  • timbit42 4y ago
    Advertise.
• andrew_ 4y ago
  My father, who is now 76, introduced an Apple II into the home. He wrote a number of programs himself for a business he started (that lasted 30 years). Followed by a series of PCs, the first of which had the pre-Windows 95 GeOS on it. These days, he fumbles with his phone; half of the time hanging up while trying to answer it. His texts messages are usually unintelligible as he totally relies on voice to text. This can mostly be attributed to cognitive decline following a major heart attack which was accompanied by an undiagnosed stroke, a minor heart attack, and a diagnosed stroke. He still dabbles with Kodi and VPNs but is always at least a year behind the curve, and new technology thoroughly confuses him. That's left me wondering: will there be a point at which I struggle, after having spent decades writing code that powers the web?
  • TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
    Well, my dad wrote sophisticated engineering programs for mini's, and taught me to program BASIC, but now he needs me to get his new laptop to print on wifi, and install a weather app on his Android phone. The world is quite a bit different from 40 years ago, and you do have to put in some effort to keep up with the changing paradigms, but I think that effort is up to each of us. What I worry about is being able to see the screen, and type. As long as I can still do both, I will probably never retire.
  • hk1337 4y ago
    Apple IIc was our first family computer (Really mine since I used it most). I loved that I could carry it around and plug it into the TV and have a color monitor. Apple IIe was also used a bit in school.
  • colpabar 4y ago
    >That's left me wondering: will there be a point at which I struggle, after having spent decades writing code that powers the web? I'd say it's not that tech will become too difficult to use, but the constant and frequent changes will start to annoy you to a point where you just don't invest as much time into learning how the new stuff works. YMMV, but I am less than half your dad's age and I'm already starting to feel it.
• jimt1234 4y ago
  First of all, THANK YOU for volunteering your time to help out seniors. You are a great human. I tried volunteering to help a few years ago, just with a group of seniors in my mother's circle, and it just became too depressing for me. It was a never-ending battle against adware/bloatware/crapware that I just couldn't keep up with. I spent more time telling them what not to do with their laptops/smart-phones than showing them all the things they could do.
• tsycho 4y ago
  Unpopular opinion (on HN at least): A Chromebook, under locked down mode to prevent installing any plugins, is best for non-tech savvy, casual internet users.
• yumraj 4y ago
  On a similar note, I wish OS updates came not just with supported hardware list, but also how well an OS works on older hardware. I have a late 2013 15” MBP with 16GB RAM as my daily driver, and it was great till it had Mojave on it. In a moment of insanity I decided to update it to Big Sur , since it was no longer getting security updates. And guess what, it massively effed it up. It became much slower, services started taking unnecessary CPU and memory pressure running into yellow more frequently.
• insane_dreamer 4y ago
  Besides this there's also the pre-installed AVS crapware from "reputable" companies that tries to take over your entire system and continuously pinging you with scam-like "you're in danger, let me in" messages.
• treeman79 4y ago
  Got my mom an iPad. I replace it every 10 years. So far once. She’s totally happy. Almost no effort on my side needed. My dad has will only use android based devices. Nothing but endless issues.
• segmondy 4y ago
  I got sick of helping seniors with their tech issues. I upgrade them ipad or chromebook. That's it.
• abbbi 4y ago
  Today i had a somewhat similar experience. The printer at one of my step grandpas location was on and off working. I quickly noticed problems with the networking (wireless) and several other wireless stations in the same building. Appears the issue was automatic channel setting in his wireless router (clashes with other stations sharing the same channel, probably). After changing the routers defaults to fixed channels everything worked like a charm and the printer had stable networking. He told me they apparently had the same problem with their old printer, which they assumed was broken and was disposed... What a waste of money and resources, the other printer clearly suffered from the same issues caused by the default ISP router configuration and it would have been fixable...
• wstrange 4y ago
  They don't get a lot of love on HN, but Chromebooks are awesome for seniors, and those that need to support them. They are malware resistant, and easy to remotely support. They are difficult to really mess up, and you don't need to worry about data loss. Migration to a new chromebook is trivial.
• mderazon 4y ago
  I consider myself tech savvy able to do things very quickly and efficiently and find anything I need online. I always wonder if I will still have these skills when I'm old, or will I be completely lost like most of the current old generation.
• kypro 4y ago
  I used to work at a computer shop and one of the things we always offered and pushed quite strongly when customers brought a new computer was a free setup service. As part of that setup service we uninstall all of the junkware that new computers come with pre-installed and install some useful applications like Libre Office and Chrome. The primary reason we did this was because if we didn't it was very likely customers would eventually bring the computer back and complain that it's running slow or that some software had stopped working (30-day office trial, etc). It's kind of insane that companies ship computers with so much junk on them because it literally degrades their product for anyone who doesn't know how to service a computer. I always thought it would be easy win to just ship a computer without all the junk and just some useful freeware...
• rowanG077 4y ago
  Not that I think all of these shitty actions companies do are good. But really people have only themselves to blame. They will consistently go for the lowest of the rung bottom dollar device. Essentially forcing a single company to this shit. Once the first company has started the other companies have to follow suit to not be outcompeted. It takes an incredible strong brand to not do it (Apple for example).
• dopeboy 4y ago
  It's really stunning how Microsoft and Google have allowed this. 3rd party OEMs are significantly crippling the Windows & Android experience. Wouldn't surprise me if attitudes change here.
• hnaccy 4y ago
  Ditch windows. I recommend only mac or chrome book for older people.
• bloomingeek 4y ago
  When I was thirty five years old, I hired in for a building maintenance job at a major airline data center. I had little computer experience and didn't even know that Windows was an operating system. I quickly discovered that almost all of the power plant equipment I operated was computerized, and I was way behind the learning curve! A fellow co-worker offered to help me and showed me many things, but the best advice he gave me was to buy some books and study up on computers. As I studied, I brought him plenty of questions! Years later I marveled to him how he was so patient with all the questions. He told me if I hadn't used the books to learn what to ask, he would have cut me off for not really trying. I've always treasured this. I'm about to retire now after 30 years and have seen many changes with many machines, I've never regretted learning any if it! As for bloatware, it is evil and unfair to the buyer/owner of the device. But let's not kid ourselves, they don't consider us owners.
• rglover 4y ago
  The optimistic POV on this is that there is a massive opportunity in many industries to knee-cap the incumbents and establish dominance in markets that: 1.) Don't need to be proven (i.e., no time to waste on "market fit" as what they want is already clear). 2.) Have low expectations in the form of "it just works." If you're comfortable with jamming on "boring stuff," you can become a low-level tycoon just cleaning up messes over the next decade or two.
• hintymad 4y ago
  The same reason I don't buy phones from vendors like Samsung. They just pack suffocating number of apps into the phone, making it disgusting to even look at.
• badcarbine 4y ago
  If I ever have anything to gripe about when I’m a senior, it’ll be passwords. Same is true now! How do you rotate passwords for a 200 account accumulation over the years? They’ll never solve that and whatever they use to solve it will be terrible. Unless implemented at the protocol level and widely adopted by all devices at that lower level
• cutler 4y ago
  Just get a Mac.
• fomine3 4y ago
  I don't know why people here primary blame about Windows Update so much. Restart is sometimes pain but please update. Microsoft cares security. There are many other complains about Windows, like Win11 taskbar, ads, pushing Edge, Microsoft account, and so on
• pabs3 4y ago
  I think I would just have booted a Linux live image, let them play around with it for a while and then asked if they wanted to replace Windows with Linux.
• pabs3 4y ago
  This is why I never use the vendor operating system for digital devices. Always switch to something self-installed, usually some Linux distro.
• ubermonkey 4y ago
  This tale just enraged me. I know I'm privileged and so is my family, because I can insist that my elder relatives opt for Apple, where such issues are far, far more rare. For most of the last 6 or 7 years, my 82 year old mom has done nearly all her computing on an iPad. She only needs her Air when -- no kidding -- she needs to transfer embroidery patterns to the USB stick her sewing machine uses (about which: yes, sewing machines have gotten HELLA COMPLICATED). No bloatware. No marketing software. No problems. But also: only possible because we can afford Apple hardware, and because she has someone in her family (me) that knows to send her there. It's still largely a Windows world. That Windows machines are so routinely loaded with ALL THIS CRAP is completely unacceptable. MSFT could do something about it if they wanted to. I remember joking, in the 90s, that MSFT's greatest crime would end up being how much they lowered everyone's expectations about what was possible in computing, and that's definitely turning out to be true.
• arendtio 4y ago
  My grandpa got an Arch Linux which I update every once in a while via SSH. Since most of his use cases revolve around a browser (news, weather, ebay, e-mail, banking) it doesn't really matter which OS is running below the browser as long as it is stable and performant. His last OS before Arch Linux was Windows Vista which didn't match those requirements.