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Elon Musk to join Twitter’s board of directors
- 1970-01-01 5y agoElon is the wealthiest person ever. He will bend Twitter to help all his existing businesses increase his wealth, all while making more money doing so. How could you possibly think otherwise?
- pinot 5y agoEver? Hardly
- astrea 5y ago
- shon 5y agoWhat would be the point?
- teawrecks 5y agoWhat's the point of him being on the board of Twitter? Doesn't have enough going on otherwise?
- gordon_freeman 5y agoNot "ever" for sure...[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansa_Musa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansa_Musa
- sillysaurusx 5y agoPeople always like to point to this guy, but he was a warlord. There's something to be said for a not-warlord achieving anything close.
- dchichkov 5y agoYes, but also he seem to be doing the right thing, so far. Unlike many others, who tend to waste resources on building yachts and bunkers.
- babl-yc 5y agoIf you think that Elon's pure objective is to get rich and live a lavish lifestyle, you haven't followed him very closely. My impression is that he uses his wealth mostly to invest in other ventures that he feels are important causes to him.
- choppaface 5y agoFor Musk, getting rich and living a lavish lifestyle is exactly the same as investing in causes he feels are important to him. The problem here isn’t that Musk is necessarily greedier than any other majority shareholder, it’s that Musk is greedy in a peculiar way that is at odds with so many other people in the world. It’s important to embrace and understand differences, but put too much leverage behind one voice or vision and there will be consequences. And there’s a lot of criticism and evidence that Musk does not use his leverage over others responsibly.
- alimov 5y agoWhile I have a somewhat similar impression of his use of wealth I think it’s important to remember that his public persona is well crafted. Following him “very closely” to me just means that the one doing the following is drinking all of the kool-aid
- babl-yc 5y agoIf you're interested in spaceflight and electric vehicles, it's impossible not to follow what he's working on. Being served the kool-aid is not the same as drinking it. He's imperfect -- his companies can be brutal to work for and he too often takes credit for his team's work -- but I find the passion for the companies he's part of as genuine.
- alimov 5y agoYeah the the companies are certainly involved in interesting work.
- daenz 5y agoBut he makes money from those ventures and is therefore immoral! /s I don't understand why so many people seem to hold the attitude that the only acceptable response to someone having money is to pressure them to squander it by giving it all away to atrociously inefficient systems (government, charities, etc). Making money is not immoral. And neither is using money to make investments to make more money.
- bko 5y agoWhat do you base this on? Seems there are a lot easier and less visible ways to increase your wealth. Real estate, sell your name out, crypto scams, etc.
- vasco 5y agoHe doesn't need to bend anything. If Elon wants to make some quick billions all he has to do is to buy any one of a million shitcoins, tweet some lame meme about it, sell and repeat. Admitedly he's done pretty much this with Tesla's venture into BTC, but the point stands.
- leesec 5y agoOh no, one of the world's most useful and brilliant people might make more money. :(
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- suyash 5y agoYou don't know who Elon is do you!
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- lodovic 5y agoI wonder if this changes anything about the SEC ruling limiting what Musk can do on social media.
- kreeben 5y ago"What's your problem SEC? I can't buy a social media co and then say whatever I want on it, whenever I want? I thought this was 'merica", might plausibly be one of his defenses against any charges of market manipulation and what are they going to do, the SEC, since they have proved time and again how toothless they are? Extremely powerful people do extremely stupid things. Examples: - Trump ("Charge the White house!") - Putin ("Invade Ukraine") - Musk ("Make Twitter an absolute free speech platform!") It's going to be fun to watch this over the next couple of months. And when I say "fun" I actually mean the exact opposite.
- hayd 5y agoCalls to violence are explicitly not included in free speech. The problem is actually the unevenness of policies. An example that annoyed me recently: the video ad for /JeremysRazors is hidden behind a "potentially sensitive content" warning (it's not), but Twitter search "razors" and be prepared to see (without any warning) disgusting images of people cutting themselves. The Kremlin (and CCP) are verified and tweeting, whilst the BabylonBee (and Trump) are banned. Lunacy.
- hindsightbias 5y agoPeople hate Musk for the same reason they hated Jobs. They love living in their world but hate themselves for it. Think Different might have more than one meaning.
- colinmhayes 5y agoOr because he calls people who disagree with him pedophiles?
- pb7 5y agoSince it happens so often, please provide two instances of this.
- streb-lo 5y agoSo accusing someone of being a pedophile once is OK behaviour? Interesting.
- psyc 5y agoConsider the phrasing: “So calling someone ‘pedo guy’ on Twitter once is Ok behavior?” You chose to unpack the facts in a direction chosen by you. A court of law unpacked it in a different direction. I call this Rhetorical Mischief.
- pb7 5y agoIt's both not okay and not a big deal. The fact that it's brought up so often is because there's so little you can pin on Musk to warrant your hatred for him. I bet you've done similarly shitty things.
- randyrand 5y agodid you like him before that happened?
- thissiteb1lows 5y ago
- HereIGoAgain 5y agoWell that was fast!
- sohrob 5y ago
- jdrc 5y ago
- krapp 5y agoYes, because when the American government controls Twitter, you can be certain all views will be respected and treated impartially...
- sebow 5y agoNationalizing in the traditional sense is not the solution, indeed, but rather hold the platform up to the letter of the constitution. This right now is not exactly possible given that "twitter is a private company", therefore arguably if one puts it in the hands of the government, you have the double-edged sword of potentially being abused by the government, and on the other hand the solution i forementioned on holding it accountable given that it would become public under the law. However, just like with any other gov. institution, being held accountable is more often than not up to the people through their civic initiative and probably not something that the government will do out of interest. So in this regard in US it could work given the nature of the constitution, whereas in other countries Twitter would just become a propaganda machine (isn't it one already?).
- nradov 5y agoSupreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas suggested extending common carrier legislation to cover social media platforms. That would essentially prevent them from censoring any content legal in the US. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2021/04/09/justice-thomas-sends-a-message-on-social-media-regulation/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2021/04/09/justice-t...
- sebow 5y agoThanks for the link, I remember hearing about Clarence Thomas' take on this subject but I never took the time to study it. My personal opinion (before reading the material above) is that the "core issue" stands on the S230 "loop-hole" (I don't want to use the term 'abuse' given the negative connotation ... so far it[S230] has been a net good since it made the internet grow so much since 2007, but things have started to change with the rise of monopolistic corporations) giving companies both privileges with less responsibility than should necessary. At least in principle a Bill of Rights should exist, especially considering that places like Twitter are considered fairly often under the law (think court cases) 'public spaces'. Therefore in my mind if the public street is a place where i can speak freely, so should one be able to on Twitter/any other such deemed public space.
- jmkni 5y agoI think Twitter's CEO summed it up well, and I agree: > He’s both a passionate believer and intense critic of the service which is exactly what we need on @Twitter, and in the boardroom, to make us stronger in the long-term. Welcome Elon! https://twitter.com/paraga/status/1511320964813910017 https://twitter.com/paraga/status/1511320964813910017
- blenderdt 5y agoThose are just polite words. Why does a critic make Twitter stronger? And why is that needed?
- BurningFrog 5y agoA good critic points out flaws to fix. With fewer flaws the company is healthier.
- dlp211 5y agoThe implicit assumption being that Musk is a good critic of what is wrong with Twitter. I'm not sold on that assumption.
- BurningFrog 5y agoTime will tell. Elon's business track record is hard to ignore though.
- JamesAdir 5y agoElon is his one of his new bosses, I would take anything the CEO says with a grain of salt.
- andrew_ 5y agoI give his tenure as CEO 6 months at most before he's forced out by the board, or resigns for ideological differences. The changing wind that Elon is going to usher in is going to be fundamental and sweeping, and I wouldn't be surprised to see an exodus of employees follow.
- ChicagoDave 5y agoHe's also agreed to never own more than 14%, so effectively agreeing only to be a voice, not a wrecking ball.
- doikor 5y agoNot never but while he is a member of the board + 90 days. Though if he would get more than that not being on the board would be weird so kind of yes never getting more than that.
- tawaypol 5y agoInteresting, 14% is the combined ownership of Blackrock and Vanguard.
- incomingpain 5y agoSo typically 30% of a publicly traded corp is enough to be defacto owner. That's just a going rule but I just checked. 80% of twitter is held by institutions. Only 2.5% is owned by insiders. No dorsey to be seen here? No elliot management? https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/02/29/twitters-jack-dorsey-has-a-new-nemesis-hedge-fund-billionaire-paul-singer/?sh=1ac1a99427d8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/02/29/twitters-... Unless I'm missing something... Elon owns Twitter. This was a super easy hostile takeover... he doesn't need 14% Elon probably doesnt want any sort of key position because afterall he's in constant fight over tesla and sec.
- hetspookjee 5y agoDorsey holds 2.25% of the stock as per one authoritive dutch newspaper NRC. So 0.25% of the stock is held by other insiders, interestingly enough. De voormalige eigenaar en mede-oprichter Jack Dorsey bezit 2,25 procent van de aandelen. [1] [1] https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2022/04/04/elon-musk-koopt-aandelen-twitter-is-nu-grootste-aandeelhouder-a4107328 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2022/04/04/elon-musk-koopt-aandele...
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y agoIt's Elon Musk, he can't help but being a wrecking ball. We're talking about the 'pedo guy' guy, after all. Twitter will get more attention for sure, but possibly not the kind of attention they want. But apparently there's no such thing as bad publicity. I think of of the interesting things to watch for is if he starts pressuring for the guy who tracks the movements of his private jet to have his account terminated.
- elicash 5y agoHe filed forms that he was going to be a passive investor, and the same day joined the board after discussion that had been in the works for weeks. This is strike two on misleading investors. I haven't seen analysis on whether it was illegal, but I wouldn't want somebody like him on my board even if it succeeded in keeping him from buying up more stock. With him on the outside, maybe he causes more trouble than on the inside but I would be wary of the association.
- throwaway879080 5y ago
- Ferrotin 5y agoShareholders like him on the board, and they would be even happier if he were running the company, because an Elon-run Twitter would be a lot more profitable.
- jermaustin1 5y ago> an Elon-run Twitter would be a lot more profitable. I'm not so sure about that. He doesn't have a lot of experience with running ad sales. His big breaks have been PayPal (kind of), Tesla and SpaceX. None of which were social, none of which were "free".
- Ferrotin 5y agoI’m not sure either (there is of course uncertainty). But in Tesla and SpaceX, he shows good management, while my (outsider) impression of Twitter’s is that it’s dropping the ball. Also, I think Twitter was undervalued compared to its potential, and Elon wouldn’t be buying part of it if he didn’t think he could turn a good profit.
- blendergeek 5y ago> and Elon wouldn’t be buying part of it if he didn’t think he could turn a good profit. Unless he was buying a seat on the board so that he could help effect change that he desired.
- tootie 5y agoThis story was two weeks ago: https://www.reuters.com/business/us-sec-says-teslas-musk-should-abide-by-agreement-over-tweets-2022-03-22/ https://www.reuters.com/business/us-sec-says-teslas-musk-sho...
- zydex 5y agoThat story has nothing to do with this one. Did you even read the above story?
- tootie 5y agoNot directly, but my implication here is that Elon Musk is in the bad graces of the SEC of is being made an insider of another huge company who facilitated him falling out of favor with that SEC. It is Twitter saying they don't care about the SEC and don't see any potential conflict with empowering someone who flaunts SEC penalties. And also, that I would be 0% surprised if Musk did this out of spite.
- zozbot234 5y agoI certainly agree that Elon Musk has a habit of flaunting SEC penalties, but I don't think this alone will lead to any real conflict. Things would be rather different if he started flouting them, of course.
- manquer 5y agoHe has been flouting them, SEC hasn't had a lot of teeth to do anything about it .
- carlycue 5y agoElon Musk is this generations Steve Jobs. He has an enormous amount of influence with people 30 and under. His opinion of Apple will most likely sour when the Apple car comes out. If he really wanted, he probably could single-handedly bring Android closer to iOS in the US by changing his phone to Android and tweeting about it. I am not kidding. People worship Elon.
- ramesh31 5y ago>If he really wanted, he probably could single-handedly bring Android closer to iOS in the US by changing his phone to Android and tweeting about it. Not even Elon could save that dumpster fire. Android is so bad that even Google doesn't want to use it anymore (see: Fuchsia).
- i67vw3 5y agoNSA backdoored proprietary iOS vs Open source GrahpeneOS....
- ramesh31 5y agoYes, because the NSA definitely does not have an entire library of top secret zero days for 90% of the software packages included in your Open Source OS. And your hardware definitely doesn't have any backdoors. Maintaining privacy against a state level actor is essentially a nerd fan fiction daydream. If the US government is after you, you're fucked no matter what.
- AustinDev 5y agoAs I always say... if your threat model contains the NSA, GRU, CCP or any other sophisticated state actor you're better off not using any technology because the moment you do you've lost.
- jdrc 5y agoElon's twitter account is his most valuable asset, and responsible for much of the rest
- Copenjin 5y agoNo it's not, it's a very popular account with a lot of followers, but I don't know how many would follow somewhere else if Elon had to leave for example.
- hickimsedenolan 5y agoYeah, not the hundreds of billions of dollars he has, or the companies he owns.
- dmamills 5y agoThis is the biggest thing to happen to twitter since the trump presidency. Both big for twitter, and awful for society.
- yosito 5y agoIn what ways do you think having Elon Musk on Twitter's board will be bad for society?
- cloutchaser 5y ago
- freedomben 5y agoIs Elon a Republican or Conservative? I've seen variations of this regarding balancing ownership and improving free speech, but aside from a few cryptic tweets about cancel culture, has Elon ever said anything? In interviews (especially the famous Rogan interview) he seems pretty disinterested in politics.
- dahfizz 5y agoAnyone who isn't an outspoken liberal is a conservative. Welcome to American politics.
- md2020 5y agoIn America, progressives/leftists actually lump in “liberals” as “conservative” now since traditionally “liberal” means support of typical Enlightenment values, democracy, and free market capitalism. But I’ve noticed that people who vote Republican refer to progressives/leftists as “liberals”, so it’s all very confusing.
- orblivion 5y agoI think he's even claimed to be some variant of anarchist. Not that I take that specifically to heart. I just think he's politically eccentric. Though to the "conservative" or maybe libertarian angle don't forget the "coronavirus panic is dumb" tweet.
- gregoriol 5y agoThis is like putting a gambler at a casino's board
- rc_mob 5y agoNot a well worded analogy. Garauntee 100% of the board members at all casinos are gamblers.
- MBCook 5y ago
- jwond 5y agoWhat kind of person actually likes Twitter?
- angryGhost 5y agothe 'influencer' type
- MBCook 5y agoI find it incredibly useful. I follow accounts accounts I consider useful or interesting. They post all sorts of informative things, fun anecdotes, bits of history, etc. Yeah if you just follow celebrities or influencers you’ll have a bad time. But there are lots of great smaller accounts (<250k followers) out there. You can often get tech news first that way from reliable sources.
- haunter 5y ago>smaller accounts (<250k followers) I'd not consider someone with 200k followers small. Maybe you meant 2500 followers?
- MBCook 5y agoNo, I meant 250k. But “smaller” was relative to celebrities and politicians and such with millions. Not all accounts I follow are that big. Many are closer to 10k. Some around 5k. There are a handful less than that but they are often people I know in person or tiny podcasts I listen to.
- Nathanael_M 5y agoI’m curious how you think this is going to ruin anything for you. Do you mean on a tangible level, or on an emotional level? Do you actually think there will be large scale policy changes that will damage your ability to communicate with people via the platform? The valuable parts of Twitter seem to be when niche experts tweet about their niche and specific niche comedy. Everything else seems really unhealthy. I could see a lot of monetization efforts ruin Twitter. I could also see people saying “I don’t want to support Elon, I’m leaving Twitter” if that’s what you mean.
- dncornholio 5y agoNo wonder he joins the board. Twitter has huge impact on his business(es). He doesn't care about free speech, all he cares about his own speech IMO.
- bmitc 5y agoI am beyond tired of billionaires, who get to treat companies, public sentiment, and politics, and thus a fair portion of government and policy, as their personal sandbox. Greed and oligarchy are ruining America.
- snarf21 5y agoAgreed but I'm not sure how we can change it at this point. Our lives in the US are way too good for revolution. This move by him is strictly about not letting Twitter ever block his accounts. He can pump & dump and mislead investors for billions that will make him a lot more money than his Twitter stake cost.
- rhacker 5y agoI don't know. They haven't finished the homeless count for 2022. I suspect they are scared to announce it. People are probably dropping off from housed to unhoused at unprecidented levels. I wouldn't say our lives are way to good right now.
- ralusek 5y agoVery, very few homeless people are homeless because they simply can't afford housing.
- skulk 5y agoTo see why you're wrong, all you have to do is look up a survey: From Maricopa county (Phoenix): https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/why-is-homelessness-on-the-rise-in-the-valley https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/why-is-... That's 2,239 people (16 percent of all surveyed shelter-visitors) that cited "economic reasons" as the cause of their homelessness, and there's a separate entry for unemployment.
- sorry_outta_gas 5y ago> . Our lives in the US are way too good for revolution. lol, maybe for "us" they are most people have serious trouble just living and near zero retirement funds
- steelframe 5y agoIs there a law akin to Godwin's or Sturgeon's about all social media trending toward some failure state? Several years ago I deleted all my FB content and then disabled my account. Looks like it's time to do that with my Twitter account now.
- TechBro8615 5y agoYes, it’s called Eternal September. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
- LudwigNagasena 5y agoThat’s about culture in small tight communities, it’s not about monstrous billion people wide networks without any coherent identity of community.
- smolder 5y agoI think while the effect was first noted in a relatively small community, the idea applies broadly to all sizes of open public forum, especially where things are organized chronologically. There's difficulty in developing and establishing cultural norms when there are constant new arrivals who can't have learned from past developments. That's what the term represents to me.
- LudwigNagasena 5y agoBut there is no single public forum on Facebook and no single culture.
- TechBro8615 5y agoYeah, I also don’t see why such patterns should apply differently to any community past a sufficiently large Dunbar number, modulo some tribal factor. Humans simply haven’t evolved to differentiate between a tribe of three thousand, or three million. Want proof? Tell me how many people might read this comment and agree with it. Humans are bad at large scale pattern recognition and suffer from extreme proximity bias. It’s why filter bubbles exist. For the same reason, it seems dangerous to promote the idea that it’s even possible to “have a conversation as a society.” If any such conversation is taking place, surely its level of inherent selection bias would render any of its conclusions irrelevant. Only a participant or biased observer could claim otherwise. Society has a filter-bubble deficiency. For a global population nearing ten billion humans, the number of distinct information channels is alarmingly low in comparison. It’s not possible to have an honest “conversation as a society” in such an asymmetrical information environment.
- lbriner 5y agoI have obviously missed something but what is the main objection to Musk being part of Twitter's board?
- tmp_anon_22 5y agoIts a modern incarnation of a billionaire buying a newspaper. Has that ever worked out well? Has it ever been altruistic?
- neilc 5y agoI don't think Bezos' ownership of the Washington Post has gone badly so far.
- manquer 5y agoNot much for WaPo perhaps, but for bezos that put him in the target sights of lot of people Many of them state sponsored like Saudi government which targeted him after kashtogi. He also got hacked and his dick pics were maybe compromised. Those hacks could have accelerated his divorce too.
- topspin 5y agoAnd yet, in a remarkable display of self unawareness, WaPo has declared[1] that Musk's move "Could Be Bad News for Free Speech." [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/elon-musks-twitter-investment-could-be-bad-news-for-free-speech/2022/04/04/ab93b742-b43d-11ec-8358-20aa16355fb4_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/elon-musks-twitter-i...
- ausbah 5y agolikely something about the platform not promoting free speech enough via overreaching censorship, interpret that how you like
- mynameisvlad 5y agoA decent chunk of people in the previous thread were saying he’s doing it to kill the bot that tracks his plane’s movements. In general, he seems to be an active enough user that there’s concerns he will use his new power as a way to shield himself from the consequences of his activity.
- marban 5y agoThe expensive way to get yourself an edit button for tweets.
- jdrc 5y agoExpensive is relative
- loceng 5y agoThe profitable way to get yourself an edit button for tweets; Elon's ~$3 billion stake now worth ~$4 billion. Making $1 billion by simply spending $3 billion is pretty sweet.
- mosselman 5y agoHe has $260 billion and spent $2 billion to buy himself into one of the biggest communication platforms ever. Some people have about $260.00 in their name and spend $6 at Starbucks on some caramel coffee.
- rednerrus 5y agoI know it's not popular but I like the fact that he's annoyed and did something about it.
- jdrc 5y agoI sympathize but very rich people owning the media never ends well
- ariedro 5y agoBecause that wasn't happening in the first place?
- jdrc 5y agoThe comparable cases are Bezos & Zuck, the parallel is Berlusconi. Yes it's all scary
- Loughla 5y agoWhat does that matter? The original question was: >I sympathize but very rich people owning the media never ends well How does the history of the ultra-wealthy controlling the narrative in media for their own gain change that statement?
- memish 5y agoWho owns the media and big tech now??? It's not poor people! At least Elon Musk is a very rich person who believes in free speech. Which is good for us poors. Twitter and the national discourse will be objectively better for working class voices as a result. Less so for the gatekeepers and media elite commentariat.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- shmde 5y ago> At least Elon Musk is a very rich person who believes in free speech. Yes thats exactly why he was willing to shell out 50,000$ to a kid to remove his flight tracking bot. Stop licking his boot.
- zanethomas 5y agoPass the popcorn.
- lvs 5y ago
- asd88 5y agoGood for TWTR but not great for its employees given how Elon runs his companies.
- beeboop 5y agoHow does Elon run his companies any differently than the vast majority of tech companies out there?
- Lamad123 5y agoHe calls himself of founder of some things he never founded!
- panick21_ 5y agoPeople are so obsessed with that detail. Elon and JB wanted to start their own company and they had the money. Tesla had no money and was going nowhere without Musk. Instead of creating his own company he agree to join forces and basically fund Tesla. Seems like not just starting a competitor was the nice thing to do. As doing so would have 100% doomed Tesla.
- mosselman 5y agoI don't care either way. Nor about Tesla, nor about Musk. Calling yourself a founder when you aren't, regardless of the merits of him funding Tesla, is still very odd.
- joering2 5y agoI don't think the OP was referring to Tesla since technically they are a car company, not a "tech" company, but still you can find interviews with real founders of Tesla who stated on record they don't understand why Elon calls himself a "Tesla founder", but since they took his money, he is their boss (or was). I think he was referring to PayPal, a tech company. Even now all over the net you can see articles claiming Musk founded Paypal. Nothing further from the truth. Musk started X.com and designed a very simple page where you put two peoples email addresses and you "could" send them money. It was happening at the same time as PayPal had the same idea and similar website. Problem for PP was that back then no sane bank or financial institution would touch any company that is hooked up to the internet. Musk had a tremendous leverage because of the only bank who would go ahead and plug their gateway into the net (I believe it was Stanford Federal Credit Union, but I don't remember) was okay for doing it because personal leverage of Musk father, who owns multiple diamond mines in ZA, and put a huge collateral "just in case" something goes wrong. Musk didn't have to have a working website to have a $300,000,000 leverage over PayPal and PP knew it will be years before they get any bank to agree to work with them. It was smart for Thiel to offer large stake of PP for Musk just for ability to change which site will be using the bank's gateway. This story was somewhat easy to find and popular back in the old days of the internet, but - putting my conspiracy hat on - these days you find nothing about it at least not by Googling. So I don't really know - to me it doesn't sound he founded PayPal, they would eventually got their permission from some bank but at that point we would be X'ing each other money, not "Paypalling" it.
- shmde 5y agoDoes HN crowd REALLY believe he is going to remove censorship and preserve the voice of the underclass ? Thats the most naive thing to believe.
- Tehchops 5y agoNo, it's the pseudo-libertarian HN crowd that's super excited because they think it means they can be assholes and engage in derogatory/discriminatory speech online again, all in the name of combating the nebulous "woke" bogeyman.
- dav_Oz 5y agoMy take on this is that he wants to bring back more of a wild west. I kinda sympathize with the sentiment to create a more relaxed version of Twitter where only the obvious in terms of free speech is excluded (like MMA/Vale Tudo - in terms of a "free fight"- not allowing eye gouging etc.) but this certainly isn't something for everyone. Not a lot of people can stomach 4chan taking this to an extreme. So how you go about this? As a mere mortal you are damned to create a new thing, create a PR-campaign from the outside to pressure Twitter ... the usual things. But as the richest person on the planet you don't only possess the resources to do all the above way better, additionally you can simply just buy up "Twitter". Which is kind of crazy like buying up a restaurant after not being satisfied with the service. Well, the stock price did go up significantly and yeah, in order to make things "more fun" for Twitter users again (the most active being obviously not underclass) one can relax some "out of control" censorship practices.
- nemothekid 5y ago>I kinda sympathize with the sentiment to create a more relaxed version of Twitter where only the obvious in terms of free speech is excluded How does this happen though? When someone is "cancelled on Twitter" what does that mean? Is it Jack Dorsey going in a banning your account? Twitter suspensions, by the actual company, are relatively well reasoned. What most people don't like is the Twitter mob, who does not work for Twitter. Despite people saying they want "more free speech" what they actually want is to suppress the free speech of others so they can say what they want.
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- nathanvanfleet 5y ago
- scop 5y agoI find this to be incredible news. I used to think Elon-hype was stupid, but both (a) his achievements and (b) his mind have gotten me to be an admirer. Re (a) achievements, the man has basically bootstrapped space travel and electric vehicles. Seems like a big deal. Yes, I know it's more nuanced than that, but you get the point. Can you name someone else who broke through two fundamentally stalled/deadlocked industries on such scale? Now here he is putting his plow to the field of one of the most difficult problems of our age: information and social media. Re (b) his mind, I have been very impressed by his interviews on podcasts as well as his willingness to go on various long-form podcasts. He seems to be somebody who is very eager to learn about a great variety of fields (history, software, hardware, physics). He also seems to take great care in extrapolating side-effects down a chain of events in order to think in a complex way of "what would happen if we do X". The world is not black & white and Elon seems to operate very comfortably in known & unknowns. I don't agree with everything Elon says or does. But it's so bloody stupid that I have to even say that. What sort of bubble do you live in where you actually have various people who you fully agree with across all spectrums? Get out in the real world for goodness sake. We need more Elon Musks. Addendum: (he also posts dank memes while on the pot, which is another plus)
- nebula8804 5y agoHe is never really challenged with uncomfortable\difficult questions on his interviews. The one time I recall he was asked an uncomfortable question he threatened to end the interview. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYOI8h9-uXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYOI8h9-uXs I cannot find the complete interview on YouTube unfortunately. In this other interview, I am disappointed at how she didn't even push on some of his answers, for example when talking about his "rabid fan base". You just need to look at this thread for proof. [2]:https://youtu.be/sM9RyZT0Rrg?t=219 https://youtu.be/sM9RyZT0Rrg?t=219 Also, she is not as technically informed about the mistakes his companies made. Would love someone to challenge him on the obvious mistakes he has made with Tesla that everyone else in the industry were adamant would be failures. Things such as the "Alien Dreadnaught" were repeats of documented mistakes that GM and Ford made back in the 80s. Even technical interviewers always gush over him about how amazing he is and never challenge him. They all just don't want to lose access.
- malwarebytess 5y agoFascinating to me the level of vitriol that spews from people on this guy. He's just a guy, you know?
- lurker619 5y agoBasically he's got a lot of money. People will attack him no matter what he does, in an effort to redistribute his wealth. It's game theory, there are no billionaires who are liked.
- wwilim 5y agoWhat about Warren Buffett?
- lurker619 5y agoI may be wrong, here are my impressions from 5 minutes spent googling - he already made his fortune in past decades. He is not really in the limelight, not building revolutionary stuff or going up against govt/corporate interests. He is pretty old and has already planned to donate major portions of his wealth already. Elon has signed the giving pledge too btw.
- phillipcarter 5y agoHe's not just "a guy"
- puffoflogic 5y agoAnd that cultural reference is not just some words.
- misiti3780 5y agoSomeone said it better than me, but a lot of HN users are smart engineers and are basically jealous of what he has achieved. The pile on hate of Elon Musk in here is hilarious to watch, and it happens like clockwork.
- Marazan 5y agoWow, never seen some many 'savvy' takes die in less than 24 hours "He's not going to join the board" said the smart set.
- Marazan 5y agoOh no, the savvy takes were right in the end! I am undone.
- bentlegen 5y agoCan you link to some of these examples?
- sydthrowaway 5y agoJust like how Putin would never invade.
- croes 5y agoDoes that mean he's now announcing the next five years, that Twitter's next feature will be ready next year?
- rrix2 5y agoSelf-posting tweets by 2025, you wont even have to open the app to anger people
- exikyut 5y agoThanks for breaking my brain. Possible complement :P I got as far as "bot" <-> "the cloud is just someone else's computer" <-> "tree that owns itself" before my train of thought SEGVed loudly in complaint.
- riazrizvi 5y agoI predict a new entry in the Terms of Service: "Tracking private jets is forbidden".
- rmatt2000 5y agoYes, but it will have to be rebranded as an anti-stalking rule to get the right people on board.
- LudwigNagasena 5y agoSuch rule can’t fly nowadays. Anything goes unless the attacked person has a vulnerable identity or whatever. (cf Reddit content policy)
- croes 5y agoIt was quicker than I thought https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30927615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30927615
- beaconstudios 5y agoyou're right, hopefully all those political woke people will go elsewhere. Then they can be replaced by people who believe in minimal oversight and free speech, and then twitter will be truly apolitical.
- kreeben 5y ago"Un-woke" people are greater than or at least equally political compared to those you call "woke", is my experience from real life as well as internet encounters with them, so your longing for an apolitical Twitter/online public town square seems a pipe dream, I'm afraid.
- beaconstudios 5y agoyeah I know, I was being sarcastic. There's no such thing as apolitical in any sphere that engages with real-world issues of contention.
- dijonman2 5y agoI was hoping you were serious.
- beaconstudios 5y agowhat issue do you have with woke people?
- rrix2 5y ago
- draw_down 5y ago
- rossdavidh 5y agoHypothesis: this is not about Elon running Twitter, controlling society, insuring free speech, or any other such thing. It's simply that he wants insurance against being de-platformed, and now he has it.
- protomyth 5y ago9% is a hell of an insurance policy. I don't disagree, the man does not do small things, but I do wonder if he just bought insurance for more people than himself.
- stathibus 5y agoYou're assuming there was some cost/benefit analysis here. Elon has enough money that only the benefit is a factor.
- hacknat 5y agoNot if you're able to influence the market in a meaningful way from your Twitter handle. How is anyone underestimating Twitter's power at this point?
- stale2002 5y ago>? 9% is a hell of an insurance policy I mean, you say that. But the literal former president of the USA got de-platformed from twitter, and we don't hear about him nearly as much as when he had a twitter. Maybe it is actually worth that amount of money, if entire elections can be influenced like that.
- philosopher1234 5y ago>entire elections can be influenced like that. What was the influence Trump's banning had over the election?
- dragonwriter 5y ago> What was the influence Trump's banning had over the election? Especially since it occurred after the election, that's a good question.
- suyash 5y agoMuch needed change, I would hope he will fire the CEO and the existing leadership at Twitter and replace them with those who really want to make Twitter a neutral, respected platform for discussion.
- boppo1 5y agois the current ceo less neutral than Jack was?
- twofornone 5y agoI think generally the political right in the US is effectively underserved by social media, because all of the giants seem to lean pretty openly left. If Musk can make the platform more neutral this could be a massive business opportunity, if not to grow then to at least ensure Twitter's market dominance by venting some of the pressure for a competitor. Never would have bothered before but I'm long TWTR now, worth a gamble since everything Elon touches turns to gold, even if only because of cult of personality...
- hackyhacky 5y agoHas it occurred to you that social media tilts left because lefty people are more likely to use the internet? Internet and social media use use track closely with education level, which correlate to position on the political spectrum. If that's true, then an attempt to make social media more "neutral" would in fact be giving rightists an unfair advantage.
- zaptrem 5y agoWhile this might have been true a decade or two ago, nearly everybody uses the internet now. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/02/7-of-americans-dont-use-the-internet-who-are-they/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/02/7-of-americ... (this is a year out of date -- 93%)
- hackyhacky 5y agoMaybe, but not everyone uses the internet equally. Educated people, professors, lawyers, doctors, programmers, and others with desk jobs are more likely to participate heavily in social media than the uneducated and, working class, and menial laborers. Just because most people have a Facebook account doesn't mean that representation is equal, and there is no reason to expect that a preponderance of lefty posts necessarily implies systemic bias.
- stale2002 5y agoThere are lots and lots of lefty places on the internet. I am sure that people on the left will do just fine, if there happens to be 1 major neutral platform that doesn't do as strict moderation.
- Lamad123 5y ago
- ipsin 5y agoWhat are the practical effects likely to be, anyway? I'm wary of Musk because he comes from the same "memelord shitposter" tradition that has served the right wing so well in the past few years, but I don't think he's angling for the return of Trump?
- bjt2n3904 5y agoThe comments in this thread are a gold mine. 1) Twitter doesn't ban people for wrong think! That's a myth! 2) Musk was accused of racism! 3) Musk isn't doing this for freedom of speech, he's only doing it for his own interests! I want to see the Venn Diagram of people who said one of these things, and were glibly sharing XKCD #1357 whenever someone got banned from Twitter that they disagree with. The tides have started to slowly turn, and all they can do is play the same three cards over and over: "that's not true, this is racism, capitalism bad!" Surprise! Nobody believes this anymore. They're sick and tired of being told what to believe by "experts". They're tired of you crying wolf. And they're tired of being gaslit that none of this is happening.
- philosopher1234 5y agoI doubt you actually understand the people who make these criticisms.
- ComradePhil 5y ago> Twitter is a private company, it can do what it wants > Elon Musk: buys ~10% and lays out intension to make changes > No, not like that
- caffeine 5y agoThis is great news! Twitter and the rest of the rotten and censorious platforms could use a proper shake-up. Hope the authoritarians and political repressives and anyone who works on the content moderation team all resign in protest! Good riddance!
- pixelatedindex 5y agoVery unclear if this should have ended in a /s or not - which is more of a reflection of the world in which we live in rather than the comment itself.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- systemvoltage 5y agoIt is crazy that sane things are controversial and insane things are mainstream.
- caffeine 5y agoI meant every word (and more.)
- fortyseven 5y ago
- consumer451 5y agoHonest question, and not snark: We have 4chan and 8chan. Those are absolute free speech. Don't we already know how "absolute free speech" works out on digital platforms? Why do we need another one? Or am I missing something major here?
- fastball 5y agoI guess the problem with those platforms is that most privately censored speech is still the actual hate speech stuff like Nazism/racism/homophobia/etc, so those platforms have taken on all of those aspects because those people have nowhere else to go. But Twitter is not already a cesspool of those things, and I guess the feeling is that loosening up on the reigns a little bit won't suddenly cause Twitter to turn into a neo-nazi dominated platform. You'll just have things like not banning Donald Trump or not squashing factually correct NYPost articles – which of course are things that you can still debate the merits of but are different from Twitter becoming 4chan.
- ryanSrich 5y agoIt would be cool to see Twitter unban the thousands of accounts I used to follow. I highly doubt Musk will have or is interested in having any real influence.
- gotaquestion 5y agoWhat thousands of accounts did you follow that were banned? Give us a sampling.
- randyrand 5y agoya, let us condescendingly judge you!
- ryanSrich 5y agoLol exactly. Not taking that bait. Also, follow was the wrong word. They're all lists. I have 50+ twitter lists.
- gotaquestion 5y agoWhen someone claims "free speech infringement" and then has no data to back it up they are either trolling or don't really care enough to make a substantial argument.
- hayd 5y agoAre you suggesting there isn't any banning? What precisely is your claim here? BabylonBee is a recent example, and apparently Musk had a call with them prior to him making the free speech poll/twitter purchase: https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1511325246967660547 https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1511325246967660547 (Note: Musk has been on their podcast). Likely BabylonBee still can't tweet (?), the offending tweet is still down: https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1505288002746175494 https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1505288002746175494, also this one is word-for-word the same and up: https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1503825449285300228 https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1503825449285300228. Makes no sense.
- dandanua 5y agoThis cult of personality won't end well. He already has a very questionable reputation as an "example to all humans".
- throwaway5752 5y ago"For so long as Mr. Musk is serving on the Board and for 90 days thereafter, Mr. Musk will not, either alone or as a member of a group, become the beneficial owner of more than 14.9% of the Company’s common stock outstanding at such time, including for these purposes economic exposure through derivative securities, swaps, or hedging transactions." This is the second line in the linked filing, and something a number of people have not read.
- prvc 5y agoWhat is the maximum number of seats he could control under those conditions?
- eganist 5y ago> This is the second line in the linked filing, and something a number of people have not read. Not sure it's that it was left unread or if it just doesn't matter. As best as I can tell, it just means he won't overtly threaten the company with a takeover or equivalent because he's been given soft power to influence. My lay reading suggests that Twitter is now basically operating at his whims to keep him from leaving the board and executing a takeover plan 90 days thereafter.
- sandworm101 5y ago>> he won't overtly threaten the company with a takeover or equivalent Well, he can overtly threaten all he wants. He can begin the process. He can make all the money arrangements and make agreements with other shareholders. He just cannot complete the takeover by actually acquiring more stock (or other instruments) until after 90 days. Imho that isn't a practical limit on threats.
- mywittyname 5y ago> My lay reading suggests that Twitter is now basically operating at his whims to keep him from leaving the board and executing a takeover plan 90 days thereafter. Honestly, it might be amusing if he does do that. Twitter stock looks to still flat from the IPO price, even after the spike after this announcement. I say, let him tie up a significant portion of his net worth in a vanity project with no real growth potential.
- ecf 5y agoMaybe a benefit of web3 with a centralized identity would be the ability to completely block all mentions of a person. My days are much better when I can avoid the egotistical pet projects of out-of-touch billionaires.
- kassah 5y agoI think something really important here, is that it has been agreed that Elon Musk is not to be more than 14.9% beneficial owner of the companies common stock. I'm not a lawyer, but this also looks like a tactic saying "Let's give Elon a voice on the board so he doesn't buy controlling interest in the company." Elon is being forced (or heavily incentivized at least) to liquify Tesla stocks, so he's going to be looking for alternate places to put that money to avoid the consequences of holding on to liquid capital, this limits him from putting too much of it into Twitter, and being more than just a board member. Gives stockholders & existing board members what they want (retaining control of the business, and makes it harder for Elon to build a competitor), while giving Elon what he wants (influence in the business). This sounds like a win-win.
- Uhhrrr 5y agoIt's easy to look at Musk's tweets and think he's just doing buying in so he can shitpost more effectively, but he is savvy enough to realize that Twitter is not nearly as valuable as it could be. Its reach is as huge as any network and anyone with a public presence "has to" be on it. The big knock against it is that users and brands are afraid of spontaneous howling mobs. Fewer users means less reach and fewer brands means less $$$. My guess would be that he has some ideas about how to change this. Maybe (spitballing here) more tools for users who are QT'd?
- jimbob45 5y agoI agree and people forget Twitter owned TikTok four years before TikTok was a thing (in the form of Vine). I'm still amazed that people take Twitter seriously as a business while they have still have board members around from when Vine was closed down. That kind of ignorance seems inexcusable to me.
- telotortium 5y ago> Maybe (spitballing here) more tools for users who are QT'd Yes - slowing down the rate of Twitter pile ons would help a lot. Rate limiting QTs from non-followers would help a lot I think. You could even extend this to manual text quotations and screenshots, using either printer dots or OCR. Subtweeting is fine - the point should be to avoid making randos the "it" person on Twitter.
- system16 5y agoI hope that's the reason. I've always said Twitter has unbelievably untapped potential that for whatever reason, its current management is unable or unwilling to realize. Over the years they've kept the platform stagnant at best or filled with user dark patterns at worst. Not to mention their hostility to the developer community.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
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- Xenixo 5y agoWeird that Elon musk would do something like this I assumed he would optimize how he spends his time. He mentioned once that he sometimes sleeps/slept at the factory. I had a similar thought on Putin: as long as the war is ongoing he has less time to do other things. When Biden took over trump I also thought that bidens team might be able to do more change than the trump team because he fired so many and golfed often.
- its_ethan 5y agoMight be time to revisit some of those assumptions then?
- Xenixo 5y agoOf course. I posted it though to share my thoughts. This made me realize that Elon musk takes twitter much more serious than I thought.
- Reebz 5y agoThis is just a 2022 version of a billionaire buying a newspaper. Not shocking.
- Xenixo 5y agoTo do what? A newspaper I get. Forming opinions is easy with a newspaper. But with twitter? Manipulating Twitter trends? Who cares?
- MrMan 5y agoYou realize twitter is most likely far more powerful at shaping opinion than any single newspaper? Fox News Facebook and Twitter are probably among the top 5 such mind control outlets. I am not on Twitter but I am motivated to research the reach Twitter has vs the TV networks, the major news papers and the bigger social networks which of course dwarf what we used to call MainStream Media.
- noetic_techy 5y agoIt's either this or one of its competitors rises to take them on at some point and we get a bifurcated society where specific companies cater to specific politics. That may be unavoidable anyways. I think people outside the SV bubble (I grew up there, don't live there anymore) don't realize how hated and despised their censorship policies really are. Musk has his pulse on that, so I'm happy to see him step in and shake up the group think.
- systemvoltage 5y ago> one of its competitors rises The ideological complex has not allowed anyone to rise. That's the issue. Even neutrality is considered distasteful.
- cbsmith 5y agoHuh, wha?
- hedora 5y ago
- adventured 5y agoIf you're wondering about the neutrality premise. The furthest ~25% on the left and right have an increasingly extreme, partisan, borderline psychotic view of the world that you're either with us or against us. That polarization has become radically more aggressive over the past decade. Just to use a simple example: someone might might say it's not enough to not oppose men becoming women and dominating female swimming/sports (neutrality), you must support it. Anything else and you're an "enemy" and not an "ally." The left in particular has created an increasingly large vocabulary designed to polarize and split the population and draw lines between people (either or lines).
- cbozeman 5y agoSo we moderates kill off each half of our crazier cousins and live in moderate harmony! (this is extreme sarcasm, for those that can't tell)
- guelo 5y agoCan't wait for the "Twitter is a public utility" argument to switch partisan sides.
- gnicholas 5y agoSo does this mean Elon can't be blocked/booted on Twitter? I guess a seat on the board is the ultimate blue-check.
- Whatarethese 5y agoTrump furiously trying to find a way onto the board.
- ocdtrekkie 5y agoIf only Trump actually had $2.9 billion dollars.
- ideamotor 5y agoA troll I have blocked on Twitter has joined the board of directors. Great. Will Kayne West be next? What about Glen Greenwald? I have those blocked as well. How about a troll-only board selected from accounts I blocked?
- MadSudaca 5y agoMaybe you’re just too sensitive.
- ideamotor 5y agoOr maybe I believe playing by known and accepted rules is the only thing holding our country, democracy, and the global economic system together. And this guy seeks and promotes activity (SEC, crypto, ripping off cofounders, his positions on taxes, never ceasing misinformation, and so on) that dilutes this. You can’t have a democracy without common rules and a common currency. If he’d just stick to building stuff, he’d be awesome, but no, he’s gotta break all the rules for his ego for vanity projects.
- cityzen 5y agoin other words, trump will be back on twitter soon
- gotaquestion 5y agoSo does his new free speech wagon mean disinfo is back on the menu at twitter, and a return of the former president*?
- fleddr 5y agoI think people are really over-analyzing this move. I think it's motivated by prestige, not money, nor is free speech the heart of the matter. Twitter is a stagnant company. They have thousands of engineers that in the span of a decade don't seem to produce much at all, nothing visible or memorable anyway. Long-lasting Twitter problems (culture, spam, algorithm issues) never seem addressed. User growth is stagnating as Twitter fails to appeal to "normies" in a way Facebook and other networks can. A perfect target for Musk to come in, do a few sweeping changes, and get out. Thereby proving once again that he gets shit done where others can't. Case closed. It doesn't take much. People have been begging for an edit button for a decade. If he'd get only that feature implemented, it will be remembered forever.
- grenoire 5y agothank you Papa Musk for the edit button <3
- deanCommie 5y agoCounterpoint: Twitter is the only social network I use where I get an unfiltered balance of ideas big and small - CEOs and random Joes. It's where memes are born and proliferate everywhere else (other than TikTok). Twitter WORKS. If it's profitable, it doesn't need more growth. Facebook got ruined because it thought everyone's parents and grandparents should be on it, and now that's the only people on it. My parents and grandparents are scared of Twitter, and that's how I like it. It also doesn't try to charge me for access to my own followers like Facebook does. Twitter may have problems but I like the balance they've struck. An edit button by the way would RUIN it because people who have gone viral with a bad take would simply edit it away.
- martin_a 5y ago> If it's profitable, it doesn't need more growth. Stakeholders will think otherwise. > An edit button by the way would RUIN it because people who have gone viral with a bad take would simply edit it away. Just add a change history like (I think) FB has. No big deal.
- samarama 5y agoA Twitter with unlimited speech will become a racist and propaganda hellscape. Imagine Trump will be brought back on Twitter, he’ll radicalize 40% of Americans into QAnon disciples and try to topple the United States government again. He’ll have thousands like him joining in in spreading mass amounts of fake news exactly like the Russian propaganda machine. You’ll see extreme science denial, a boatload of new Covid myths, drinking bleach, Ivermectin, Covid is just the flu propaganda all over again, just 5 times worse.
- MrPatan 5y agoHow's that for a short march through the institution?
- fataliss 5y agoMusk is the entrepreneur version of "Move fast; break things" - something like "Make it happen; no matter the cost" kind of guy. Leaving a trail of burnt out/injured employees and other negative externalities is just his way of "getting shit done". Not sure how much or how little impact he'll have in the future direction of Twitter, but if I worked there I'd be a bit concerned!
- werber 5y agoI kinda thought twitter was just a porn company now.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- JoshTko 5y agoOne single feature can solve the spambot problem, monetization problem, and comment quality. Pay to comment - the cost scaling up based on the follower count of the tweeter. You comment is free if enough whitelisted folks like your comment. Note, this is just pay to comment. Tweeting should remain free. The whitelist would be ~10% of users. List initially aglo determined and long term curated manually.
- kyle_martin1 5y ago
- srameshc 5y agoI suspect it's about 2024 elections. In my opinion Elon doesn't like the current government and likes a change.
- cryptonector 5y agoOr maybe he wants his Starship launch plans approved. "Oh hi lol [I'm going to be a PITA to you all until I get what I want]"
- georgehill 5y agoSometimes I think Elon is a great marketer than an engineer or maybe both, I am happy that at least someone is in an authoritative position on the Twitter board to support free speech and I hope they do some real innovation to the platform.
- quantum-crt 5y agoI would actually consider working at twitter now.
- stereoradonc 5y agoI think Musk got the seat on Twitter because he didn't want to be deplatformed. Twitter is closely tied to his PR activities (for good or bad) and all the drama around "coins" (not to give him any legitimacy from a crypto-sceptic). Twitter allows him to "shoot from the pulpit". The story is always bigger than what plays out in the shadows. I wouldn't base my decision on what is being extensively reported.
- night862 5y agoInteresting move
- swasheck 5y agooddly my account was just disabled without informing me of how i violated TOS. i was just mocking and condescending toward boebert and cruz. thanks elon
- kornhole 5y agoWhich term sounds better? Twittla, Tesler..
- pmayrgundter 5y agoA lot of comments and no mention of The Washington Post? Maybe it's worth a board seat to not get boxed out, esp if the media owned by your opponents has been demonstrably unfriendly and you're ramping up your goals. https://twitter.com/davidpowellbham/status/1511398360137277441 https://twitter.com/davidpowellbham/status/15113983601372774...
- esjeon 5y agoLet's be honest this whole thread is f**ed up. A truth is that this guy is irrelevant. It's just your ideas that make him relevant. Just face the reality of your daily lives, and look away from some random stimulant on the net that try to rub your rough corners one way or another. Either you like him or hate him, you're just wasting your energy, people...