53 ms·

Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

400 points by alexrustic 5y ago

3glkjlkjlkg 5y ago
tehjoker 5y ago
This guy said amid declining cases. What decline??
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  The decline seen when looking at case counts in the US. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us 7 day average is in decline, from a high of 800k daily cases to the current 600k cases.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    Technically that is a decline, but we are still at more cases per day than at any point during the previous waves.
theodorejb 5y ago
Unscientific mask and vaccine mandates should be dropped regardless of the opinion of someone on Pfizer's board.
- dijit 5y ago
  It’s notable because the board member will lose financially with this statement. It’s in their interest to keep quiet or push more vaccine mandates; especially as they have the “best” one as of now.
  - waynesonfire 5y ago
    I think OP is right.. since you can also make the claim the member is promoting unhealthy habits to sell a cure.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That's not true. Every treatment of Paxlovid the company will sell is going to make a lot more profit that vaccines.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    You never know, maybe he invests heavily in hospitals and respirators.
- cies 5y ago
  Science seems to be a rather stretchable concept lately. What about "unconstitutional"? No people want to know your medical status, that used to be protected privacy. Also how can we block people from going outside or gathering? Maybe for 10% deaths that's a reasonable thing to ask, but for <1% this is waaaay out of proportion for my taste.
  - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
    Unconstitutional seems to be a rather stretchable concept lately. Here are all the vaccine mandates in the US today: https://www.immunize.org/laws/ https://www.immunize.org/laws/
    - peteradio 5y ago
      Those are states laws. Generally when someone says Unconstitutional without a state qualification they mean Federal Government.
      - cies 5y ago
        That's what I meant, the basic ones like.. right to privacy, freedom of assembly, bodily autonomy.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        That's a rather pointless quibble. State laws that violate the constitution are challenged as unconstitutional, and overturned on that basis. There were antivaxers when the Smallpox virus was rampant. Smallpox is gone, because of vaccine mandates. Public schools require a whole panel of vaccines, both of their employees and students. Until now, that hasn't been seen to violate the constitution. But now, there's a supermajority in the Supreme Court, so really, who knows what the constitution says?
        CodesInChaos 5y ago
        Not quite. Often the reason that a law is unconstitutional is that the federal government lacks the authority to regulate this, but the same law would be constitutional if created by a state government.
nimbleplum40 5y ago
Scott Gottlieb is also a former FDA commissioner and an MD, not just a Pfizer board member.
- snowwrestler 5y ago
  He’s also been a prolific public commenter during the pandemic and one of the few who has been able to navigate the politics of explaining the situation accurately but still being accepted by many conservatives. In terms of the headline, being a Pfizer board member is a lot less important than knowing the comment is from Scott Gottlieb.
bhouston 5y ago
Why is this comment being downvoted? What part isn't true? This statement seems very specific to the US cultural context: “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. In Canada, there have been experiments with slowly increasing the number of areas where you are required to have a vaccine in order to enter. They put it on Beer/Liquor stores recently and it saw a huge jump in the number of vaccine appoints. https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/first-dose-vaccinations-quadruple-in-quebec-ahead-of-restrictions-at-liquor-and-cannabis-stores-1.5731327 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/first-dose-vaccinations-quadrupl... They are putting the requirement on big box stores (e.g. Home Depot/Lowes/Walmart, excluding the pharmacy areas) now and probably will see another jump. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1995579971859 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1995579971859 That said, it does appear that this current wave is mostly over, but deaths are primarily among the unvaccinated, so it is probably still a good idea to aim for near full vaccination: https://twitter.com/OurWorldInData/status/1486076680619937795 https://twitter.com/OurWorldInData/status/148607668061993779... Covid vaccines should be treated similarly to other public health vaccines, like Polio. Although we really need more effective Gen2 vaccines that do not require constant boosters and they need to outright prevent infection rather than just reducing the death rate. These Gen1 vaccines and their semi-effectiveness have been incredibly confusing to the general public.
- msoad 5y ago
  Why you care if others get the vaccine if it does not stop the spread and new mutations as we saw with the recent variants I’m fully boosted etc. I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to Polio
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    It doesn't stop the spread, but it slows it and reduces the severity of the disease. Both of which help our health services to cope. You might care because you want healthcare to be available for yourself or your loved ones should they need it.
    - 5y ago
tootie 5y ago
I think this is kind of a big "duh" statement. Mandates were issued in the face or surging numbers and we now have waning numbers. I'm very hesitant to declare victory too soon but the day is seemingly coming soon. Of course, we'll have to reverse course yet again if there's a new wave which very well might happen. The next stage should shipping billions of doses to the poor nations that haven't gotten any yet.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  Millions of people died, there's no victory.
  - cies 5y ago
    Out of 8 billion that's not very impressive. Millions die in years without "pandemic". (quoted because in the past that mend >1% infection-deaths, this was <1%, yet still a pandemic).
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      Yeah and I don't call those victories either. We lost and need to do better when it happens again.
      - encryptluks2 5y ago
        Maybe we should outlaw tobacco, limit people's sugar intake via daily glucose testing, and ban alcohol while we're at it?
        cies 5y ago
        I think people should be able to choose their vices. Suicide (slow or fast) is by it self not immoral to me.
        micromacrofoot 5y ago
        Tobacco and sugar aren't contagious. If you want to continue down this path of false equivalence, many places have essentially outlawed second-hand smoke.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Some people are saying that this is notable because Pfizer has a financial incentive to keep vaccine mandates. That is not true. Pfizer is going to be making a lot more money from their COVID treatments than from the vaccine.
- Arnt 5y ago
  I think so too, but do you know? I mean, only a few per cent of infectees require much medicine, and Pfizer's market share won't be 100% of that. It's not obvious that x>y. Anyway, he may also well be thinking that the best policy is to have a history of assessments that turn out to be correct in hindsight. "Drop restrictions when the number of infections declines" is at least plausible.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Paxlovid is interesting in that it is only really effective if you take it as soon as you show any symptoms. Once production is scaled up, hundreds of millions of courses of treatment will be sold. Each around 100x more expensive than a vaccine dose. It will soon be Pfizer's financial benefit to have as many infections as possible.
- fileeditview 5y ago
  I doubt that. Consider no one was vaccinated and 1% of humans would need medication because of a "serious" case. Then the medicine would need to be 100x more expensive than the vaccine considering the alternative is everyone was vaccinated. Now consider many people got 3 or even 4 shots. It's 300x-400x now. Also you can give the medicine to already vaccinated people that also have serious cases. So you still can sell it in a lower capacity. Also you can sell both vaccines and medicine to states in large batches which is great. It's a big golden goose for the pharma industry.. let's never forget that.
  - yucky 5y ago
    Fortunately we can trust that they aren't using any of those billions they have made to manipulate public opinion on the issue, because that would be immoral and therefore off limits.
cies 5y ago
I could not care less, but then it seems these guys --through lots of lobby and special interest groups-- basically dictate governmental policy the world over.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jpgvm 5y ago
Actually seems like a very level headed guy. His record at the FDA is better than I would have expected from someone with such deep industry ties but it looks like he took the job to heart and did it well. At this point with the rate Omicron has been spreading here in Australia I don't think masks are making much/any difference anymore - seems like this variant is just off the charts w.r.t transmissibility. Vaccine mandates though I think make sense for the same reason we have mandated immunization in Australia for many other diseases. Unlike somewhere like the US you can't attend a school (any school, not just public schools) without the appropriate vaccines or a medical diagnosis exempting you. So a vaccine mandate for Covid-19 isn't really anything new here. Despite that there is now some political debate about it because we seem to have imported a lot of US hysteria the last decade or two. Vaccine mandate will help keep herd immunity maintained which reduces deaths among those that actually can't get the vaccine rather than just anti-vax nonsense.
zzzeek 5y ago
So he was referring to the "east coast". In New York State where I live, we have 95% first-dose vaccination status for adults and 73% for complete vaccine series (https://twitter.com/GovKathyHochul/status/1486083384682192896 https://twitter.com/GovKathyHochul/status/148608338468219289...) . so here, continued vaccine mandates won't have much additional effect. However, I would venture to say a whole lot of that 95% has been vaccinated *because* of the mandates that were temporarily in effect at the national level as well as the mandates that continue to be in effect (health care workers, federal contractors, large employers that mandate vaccination in any case). My general sense is that the vaccine mandates, despite their being in the process of being torn down by a very broken supreme court, most certainly helped a whole lot in states where state-level leadership was on board with the general idea. in conservative states where vaccination rates are low, state governments are in varying degrees of defiance towards the federal government, vaccine mandates are not as effective because of the very great resistance to them in these states. you could argue that continued vaccine mandates will continue to not be very effective, and for that reason they should also be rescinded. I'd guess some replies here will make this kind of argument. I would disagree with that argument, and it's my opinion that vaccine mandates should stay in place to the degree that it's the right thing to do, as well as the completely normal and traditional thing to do from a public health standpoint. The fierce political interference with traditional public health measures is unfortunate but that should not be a rationale for sensible policies to just be switched off.
- peteradio 5y ago
  The policies are sensible in your opinion, you will find that is where you are in disagreement with myself at least. The policies might be sensible with rose colored glasses and a pint of hope, but its not like what we imagined it would be way back a year ago. Ultimately vaccines should be used for those who benefit but forcing it on those who don't need it is just checking a box. Quit pretending like we don't know that most Americans have had Covid by now and that this imparts significant immunity.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
bencoder 5y ago
It's amazing to me that every post that has anybody arguing against the restrictions or similar gets flagged, no matter the source or rationale. It's really the most divisive issue I've ever seen in my life.
- walterbell 5y ago
  Or there are financial incentives, which may justify paid interventions online to create the appearance of divisiveness. There are PR agencies which specialize in "grassroots PR". Users can email hn@ycombinator.com to ask for human review of flagged articles. If the article still remains flagged, only then is the flag sanctioned by HN moderators. Otherwise, flags could be anywhere on the spectrum between organic users, troll botnets and paid interventions. Is there an API to HN data which could report granular data on article flags, e.g. timestamps or user IDs doing the flagging?
- hatware 5y ago
  If you've been playing pandemic longer than necessary, you'd clutch your pearls too.
- mullingitover 5y ago
  > no matter the source or rationale In all fairness, it doesn't get much less credible than the Epoch Times.
- supperburg 5y ago
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  > It's really the most divisive issue I've ever seen in my life. I've been yelled at and called very awful things by people I know in real life. Biggest clue that this is 90% hysteria and 10% real.... What ever happened to keep calm and carry on.
tzs 5y ago
Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated, however, Covid is worse than any other common virus. It has killed more than 865,000 Americans, the vast majority unvaccinated. In the weeks before vaccines became widely available, Covid was the country’s No. 1 cause of death, above even cancer and heart disease. At this point if an adult in the US is unvaccinated it is (1) almost certainly by choice (there are some people who cannot get it for medical reasons but they make up only a very tiny fraction of the unvaccinated), and (2) it is very unlikely that any evidence or logical arguments will chance their minds. With COVID becoming endemic everyone is going to get antibodies, with the only choice being whether you get your first antibodies by vaccination or by getting COVID. The only question really then is how fast do we want the unvaccinated to do the getting antibodies by getting COVID thing. The faster they get it, the faster we can be as done with COVID as we are ever going to be. I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  CDC's new paper throws a wrench in all of these arguments from NYT: https://thepulse.one/2022/01/24/cdc-admits-the-obvious-natural-covid-immunity-is-extremely-powerful/ https://thepulse.one/2022/01/24/cdc-admits-the-obvious-natur...
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  > The faster they get it, the faster we can be as done with COVID as we are ever going to be. This reminds me of the arguments that unvaccinated were the cause of COVID-19 and were endangering those who are vaccinated. Vaccinated people get and spread COVID still. In fact, recent studies show natural immunity or vaxxed plus COVID causes much more antibodies than simply getting vaccinated, especially with a vaccine that targets an old mutation that has proven much less effective against Omicron and the likes. The vaccinated people will prob continue to get vaccinated a few times a year until they get a less dangerous variant.
walterbell 5y ago
The media's binary separation of populations into vax and unvax is a false dichotomy. More causal factors would be represented by: 1. Covid-recovered 2. Vaccinated 3. Partly-vaccinated (< 14 days after 2nd shot) 4. Covid-naive + Unvaccinated CDC reporting bundles #3 and #4. UK reports all 4 categories separately. #1 was already a high percentage in 2021 and is now higher due to Omicron. Edit: CDC estimated pre-Omicron #1 as 146 million people (as of Oct 2021), https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
- ifyoubuildit 5y ago
  It is so amazing to me how many people don't seem to recognize this. My (somewhat baseless) speculation on this is that a lot of the people in forums like HN are early adopter types who mostly work from home, and so were able to avoid exposure and got the vaccine relatively early. From this standpoint, I could see it being harder to empathize with folks who were exposed in everyday life (it's just a simple jab, I did it, why can't everyone else? Or maybe even those folks must be bad/lesser people if they didn't stop themselves from being infected). Combine that with the constant onslaught of media time that pointedly ignores the categories that you breakdown above, and maybe it's no wonder that people have the opinions on this that they do.
  - hatware 5y ago
    Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. It's almost like there's a narrative here.
    - tharne 5y ago
      > Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. Source?
      - twofornone 5y ago
        Consider for a moment that the "antivaxxers" are correct, that there is enormous bias in our medical, pharmaceutical, and media establishments in favor of vaccine safety. Could you really expect a reliable source on the subject if this were the case? What proportion of people are willing to speak out and risk career and social suicide for being labeled an "antivaxxer"? It is a self reinforcing chilling effect - few people speak out, data does not surface, fewer people look for evidence of adverse events, and over time it becomes riskier and more difficult to convince people that something is amiss. Meanwhile the internet is awash with anecdote of severe symptoms following vaccination, and particularly concerning are frequent reports of doctors who are dismissive and/or refuse to submit reports on adverse effects. And then there are occasional claims of specialists in various neurological or heart related disciplines who claim to be seeing an unprecedented spike in certain normally rare symptoms among vaccinated patients. Yeah, they could all be lying or this could be the nocebo effect or it's an army of bots spreading antivaxx propaganda...or maybe you can't magically accelerate a 5+ year testing and evaluation schedule for a novel technology merely because the president says he wants a vaccine yesterday? Note that the clinical data from pfizer and moderna is not available to the public - we are essentially relying on the manufacturers good faith with respect to the safety data that lead to approval by the FDA (moderna still isn't approved, by the way). https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102
quaffapint 5y ago
I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice. My problem with mandates is where does it end? Why this mandate and not other mandates? Who gets to decide that?
- peter422 5y ago
  It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the decisions.
  - robrorcroptrer 5y ago
    Could the global obesity epidemic not also be handled through mandates?
    - Guest42 5y ago
      True, I imagine that would be quite frightening and have a lot of data to support a number of initiatives that the population would vehemently disagree with. Even in grade school, I remembered dreading when they would have us run a mile as fast as we could and record the times.
    - generalenvelope 5y ago
      Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. These factors differ widely between individuals. I think there are mandates that could help make the disease less prevalent, but it is very much ingrained in our daily life, so I'm cynical as to the efficacy of such measures. It's very difficult to mandate behavioral (look at how many people don't even want to put a mask on) or environmental (think what foods are available in a region based on scarcity, culture etc - and yes this is a real factor in obesity) changes. A concise video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c
      - nobody9999 5y ago
Bhilai 5y ago
I am done. I did my part, wore masks (sometimes double masks,) three shots of vaccines and took all reasonable precautions that a sane person could do. But there are still unmasked people and unvaccinated people (sure, blame me for putting everyone in this binary category) and I am done caring about this class of people. I could not see my family for two years due to one or the other international travel restrictions. I am done being a respectful citizen who does their duty towards society. There are "experts" on all sides providing conflicting science mixed with opinions and research keeps changing every few weeks. Call it an endemic and do away with all the mandates they are yet another source for causing division by the political class. Sorry about this fatalist and flippant tone.
- xattt 5y ago
  What’s your perspective on small kids too young to be vaccinated?
  - ryan93 5y ago
    zero risk of death from covid
    - Freak_NL 5y ago
      Not zero, but so incredibly low as not to be matter for concern in terms of risk assessment. One of the few upsides of this pandemic is that young children are the least affected, and with vaccines available for ages 5 and up this risk is well mitigated for older children (teens in particular).
- Izkata 5y ago
  > and I am done caring about this class of people. And their response will be "Finally! This is all we've wanted this entire time!" I don't think most here understand just how much "this class of people" value freedom over safety.
  - rajup 5y ago
andrewclunn 5y ago
> “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. Nope. That line was crossed a long time ago. I can't imagine people suddenly regaining trust in pharma companies and health care agencies now because they backed off at this point.
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  Do you really think Republicans are not getting vaccinated because they “don’t trust” pharma companies?
  - andrewclunn 5y ago
    Speaking as a Republican who has not gotten vaccinated, yes.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - xadhominemx 5y ago
      Before COVID vaccines, Republicans on average trusted pharma way more than Democrats. In general, distrust in pharma is the effect, not the cause, of anti-vax sentiment. I don’t know what’s going on in your specific case. I suspect you are comparing the health risk of vax to not vax, instead of the risk of vax to COVID, which is the comparison you should be making since everyone is going to get omicron eventually, but whatever.
      - andrewclunn 5y ago
        I already got Covid. If you spent a little less time assuming other people's positions (and their motivations), you might find the space to hear them instead.
        5y ago
mbg721 5y ago
Why is the opinion of a Pfizer board member relevant to legal policy? In other news, McDonald's board members are quite fond of wafer-thin beef patties.
- rory 5y ago
  He's a former FDA commissioner, so his opinion is arguably relevant. I'm not sure why they called him "Pfizer board member." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Gottlieb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Gottlieb
  - guilhas 5y ago
    "One hand washes the other"
  - xdennis 5y ago
    Is it because he's a board member? I remember a time when people thought it worrying when regulators moved to highly paid positions of the companies they were in charge of regulating.
    - rory 5y ago
      I mean the description is correct, just not the most relevant identifier. If Ronald Blaylock (investment banker and another board member) made a statement like this, I doubt anyone would care. But yeah, having our required health treatments controlled by a group of Goldman Sachs et al executives and former regulators collecting large payouts from a company they previously regulated isn't ideal.
xboxnolifes 5y ago
(USA point of view) I feel like given that vaccines do an acceptable job at reducing risk of hospitalization and death, there is only really a few things worth discussing, in relevant order: - Are hospitals actually being overloaded by covid cases to the point of being an issue (according to many, yes. but according to [1] Johns Hopkins, no, or only in some cases?). - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the covid related cases (as far as I'm aware, yes). - Is this localized (state or city specific), or is this a federal issue. - Are unvaccinated hospitalizations significantly worse compared to other personal decisions (diet, exercise, risky hobbies). - Finally, what actions, if any, should be taken to correct the hospital load? (nothing, vaccine mandates, accelerated hospital expansion, turning people away, etc) - If the answer to the previous is nothing, then what are we even doing? The focus on just asking "vaccine mandate, yes or no" feels like it's missing most of the discussion. [1] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend
- throw__away7391 5y ago
  Remember when the US invaded Iraq to "find weapons of mass destruction"? Then a year or two later that shifted to "fighting the terrorist there so we don't have to fight them here", then "winning hearts and minds" or something. Once you get a mandate for a large-scale, politically charged activity it will never stop; the goal posts will be moved again and again, as many times as it takes and as often as necessary to put the "other side" on the defensive. We're many weeks past "three weeks to flatten the curve", every week we hear more excuses. My friends pick them up and start parroting them in near perfect unison. I don't actually have any Republican friends, but if I did I'm sure I'd hear something similar from them too. This is no longer about fighting a disease, if it ever was (I also remember the response to AIDS being somewhat less dramatic than to COVID), this is about securing access to resources and power for one group over another. If it means thousands of your followers are discouraged from taking potentially life saving vaccinations (that you yourself have taken) and die as a result, so be it. If it means subjecting billions of people to years of unnecessary and demonstrably ineffective pandemic theater, crushing the financial future of the next generations, and destroying vast swaths of small businesses people have spent their lives building while realizing unprecedented returns on your own portfolio, so be it. The people running this do not care about any of this in the slightest, it's just an excuse to enrich themselves, and for a certain segment of the upper middle class to feel morally superior to others while they take Zoom calls from home and order dinners from Seamless. I guess this is getting boring for them now, so we're starting to be allowed to hear a trickle of stories like this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
logitjoy 5y ago
I wonder the people who are questioning vaccine mandates (which evidently brings down the hospital admission rates, thereby saving the health system) also question no public nudity mandates?
- jlcoff 5y ago
- ChrisClark 5y ago
  They probably scream at everyone around them when they need to get a driver's license or can't smoke in a restaurant. They shriek, "My body, my choice", when they get behind the wheel drunk. And so on and so forth. :D
canoebuilder 5y ago
Am I the only one who finds it heinous that “Pfizer board member” is supposed to give this position more credence as opposed to what should just be clearly obvious to any level headed civic minded individual in the American/western tradition? “Okay y’all, weve profited at your expense quite enough, let’s dial it back a little before causing too much societal damage writ large” -“Pfizer board member
3glkjlkjlkg 5y ago
3glkjlkjlkg 5y ago
res0nat0r 5y ago
Good article here about "endemic" and the still large problems that portend: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x > The word ‘endemic’ has become one of the most misused of the pandemic. And many of the errant assumptions made encourage a misplaced complacency. It doesn’t mean that COVID-19 will come to a natural end. > In other words, a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria killed more than 600,000 people in 2020. Ten million fell ill with tuberculosis that same year and 1.5 million died. Endemic certainly does not mean that evolution has somehow tamed a pathogen so that life simply returns to ‘normal’. > Stating that an infection will become endemic says nothing about how long it might take to reach stasis, what the case rates, morbidity levels or death rates will be or, crucially, how much of a population — and which sectors — will be susceptible. Nor does it suggest guaranteed stability: there can still be disruptive waves from endemic infections, as seen with the US measles outbreak in 2019. Health policies and individual behaviour will determine what form — out of many possibilities — endemic COVID-19 takes.
- scarmig 5y ago
  Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massive (and homophobic) violation of civil liberties. But because mask and vaccine resistance is red tribe coded, a lot of people who would usually be level-headed about epidemiology and cost-benefit analyses end up in a stance driven more by moralizing than sound science.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    I don't have to worry about getting HIV every time I go out in public just because some jerk decided he has a god-given right to breathe viral particles into my lungs even though a simple and safe vaccine is readily available.
exogeny 5y ago
Not a single person mentioning this is sourced from The Epoch Times?
roody15 5y ago
The Omicron variant has so far shown itself to be milder and overall less dangerous to the vaccinated and unvaccinated. So far it appears to leave patients with good immunity after recovery. This trend is playing out in the US and western Europe. Ireland has dropped its restrictions .. Denmark also just announced dropping restrictions. The board member is correct here, despite anyones personal thoughts on covid vaccinations, vaccine requirements etc.. at least for now this latest variant seems to be forcing a change in narrative.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Animats 5y ago
Pfizer sells a coronavirus treatment.[1] So more cases are good for their bottom line. "Cures are nice, but the money is in chronic conditions." [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/fda-authorizes-pfizers-covid-treatment-pill-the-first-oral-antiviral-drug-cleared-during-the-pandemic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/fda-authorizes-pfizers-covid...
- balls187 5y ago
  This was from 1999. Language Warning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN3d5S_MTk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN3d5S_MTk
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
partiallypro 5y ago
I think everyone should get vaccinated, but at this point if you aren't...you aren't going to. So, it's a waste. I think it's time to move on from this. It is understandable that people are afraid of getting sick, dying etc., but 2-3 years is a long part of your life. It's ruining lives in more ways than just people getting sick. I feel bad for people that live in a constant state of fear in states/countries that have been incredibly strict. My state has been more or less the same now, nothing in my life has really changed aside from the price increases and shortages in both goods and labor. I can't travel to many places I want to though because of fear I'll get there, and everything will be locked down. When this first started I was upset with people going out, etc. but as time has marched on, we know enough about the virus in terms of prevention, treatment, and the low chance of serious infection. I think my opinion is pretty popular among the populace, but it's astounding how it has not been treated as such in the media and government.
djmips 5y ago
I didn't realize there were so many eccentrics on HN, or is there a campaign?
j_m_b 5y ago
We need some good 'ol FOMO to encourage vaccination: First month, it's free, second month, it costs $10, third month, it costs $100, fourth mount, $1000.
cortexio 5y ago
ffwd 5y ago
If everyone is unmasked and the Omicron variant seems to burn through the vaccines in terms of infection but not serious illness, does that mean that it can lead to more mutations and more _bad_ mutations if so many people get it? What's the "mutation rate" in a person who has mild or no symptoms and how infectious are they? It just seems if one sick person creates a bad variant that is more infectious or even more deadly (and burn through the vaccines like Omicron) and everyone is unmasked/etc at the same time then such a variant could spread wide without immediate detection. I have no idea if any of this is true so take it with a grain of salt...
vmception 5y ago
Lets forget about everything divisive before omicron: Cloth masks and omicron are pointless right guys? It is less effective to the point of irrelevance for a virus that is less dangerous to the point of irrelevance And we cant get N95s still so this is all theater to have said mandate. Why/why not?
boopmaster 5y ago
I am not sure why we have vaccine mandates that businesses are expected to audit for entry. That to me is absurd. I do not need to provide proof of MMR to enter a McDonalds. I am vaccinated and boosted, but the invasiveness in these requests is a little over the top. Regarding masks, well businesses do often require shirt and shoes for service. I fail to see where masks differ at all in that regard.
sharken 5y ago
Good, now try to convince the French. The vaccine passport is such a bad idea. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-01-24/france-restricts-unvaccinated-from-restaurants-other-venues https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-01-...
balaji1 5y ago
giveback
terminatornet 5y ago
> “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. The only way to get people to wear masks and get vaccinated is to not make them wear masks or get vaccinated. Also, didn't we just do this 9 months ago where cases were decreasing, everyone got vaccinated and the CDC said we could burn our masks since vaccines meant we couldn't spread the virus? Looking forward to our yearly "covid is over" every spring for the rest of my life.
skarz 5y ago
Pfizer would be smart to not push for mandates -- as would anyone else wanting to see more vaccinations, period. More people would probably get their vaccine by choice if it were not forced on them. WE have known this for a long time. Glad they are catching wind of how this all works, psychologically.
eyelidlessness 5y ago
> demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in Just as people commonly rush out of a burning building, then swiftly right back into it. Because they’re safe from the fire now, and being outside the burning building is a life threatening emergency.
tamaharbor 5y ago
Why are people so afraid of something that has less than 0.01% of killing them? I am living my life as normally as I can, yet I am unvaccinated and rarely ever wear a mask. I feel mankind has handled this poorly, and has created many more unnecessary problems. I wish more people would join me, living life to its fullest. This thing will only be over when WE decide it is.
- aakresearch 5y ago
  I am with you. I have looked at age distribution of covid deaths multiple times and it seems to me that the risk is roughly the same as the background probability of dying from any cause within a year as presented here: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html. The number corresponding to my age from that table is around 1/300. Doubling that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'd probably start being slightly concerned once the background probability reaches 1%, i.e. at the age of about 60. Now, as someone obese with hypertension and pre-diabetes, I am sure my covid risk is somewhat higher, but still immaterial in light of my background risk, which is much, much, much higher. It is the latter that I should be working on, and what I'm trying to do when suicide ideation and the madness of mask and vax mandates momentarily loses it's grip on me. I am absolutely livid that those who set up these rules to combat the minuscule probability all but ensure that real big probabilities for many people will grow even bigger. Talk about penny-wise and pound-foolish. For some reason they do not even acknowledge that concerns other than covid exist, that are absolutely dwarfing their fearmongering despite all their trying. The message I am hearing from covid-enthusiasts is: "You're rubbish, crazy, mental nutjob. Your problems are imaginary, and if you die tomorrow from your own hand, good riddance! Our fully vaxed percentage will go higher, for the common good."
IMAYousaf 5y ago
I've always found this to be much ado about nothing.

400 points by alexrustic 5y ago

3glkjlkjlkg 5y ago

tehjoker 5y ago

This guy said amid declining cases. What decline??

reducesuffering 5y ago
The decline seen when looking at case counts in the US. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us 7 day average is in decline, from a high of 800k daily cases to the current 600k cases.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  Technically that is a decline, but we are still at more cases per day than at any point during the previous waves.

theodorejb 5y ago

Unscientific mask and vaccine mandates should be dropped regardless of the opinion of someone on Pfizer's board.

dijit 5y ago
It’s notable because the board member will lose financially with this statement. It’s in their interest to keep quiet or push more vaccine mandates; especially as they have the “best” one as of now.
- waynesonfire 5y ago
  I think OP is right.. since you can also make the claim the member is promoting unhealthy habits to sell a cure.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That's not true. Every treatment of Paxlovid the company will sell is going to make a lot more profit that vaccines.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  You never know, maybe he invests heavily in hospitals and respirators.
cies 5y ago
Science seems to be a rather stretchable concept lately. What about "unconstitutional"? No people want to know your medical status, that used to be protected privacy. Also how can we block people from going outside or gathering? Maybe for 10% deaths that's a reasonable thing to ask, but for <1% this is waaaay out of proportion for my taste.
- YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
  Unconstitutional seems to be a rather stretchable concept lately. Here are all the vaccine mandates in the US today: https://www.immunize.org/laws/ https://www.immunize.org/laws/
  - peteradio 5y ago
    Those are states laws. Generally when someone says Unconstitutional without a state qualification they mean Federal Government.
    - cies 5y ago
      That's what I meant, the basic ones like.. right to privacy, freedom of assembly, bodily autonomy.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      That's a rather pointless quibble. State laws that violate the constitution are challenged as unconstitutional, and overturned on that basis. There were antivaxers when the Smallpox virus was rampant. Smallpox is gone, because of vaccine mandates. Public schools require a whole panel of vaccines, both of their employees and students. Until now, that hasn't been seen to violate the constitution. But now, there's a supermajority in the Supreme Court, so really, who knows what the constitution says?
      - CodesInChaos 5y ago
        Not quite. Often the reason that a law is unconstitutional is that the federal government lacks the authority to regulate this, but the same law would be constitutional if created by a state government.

nimbleplum40 5y ago

Scott Gottlieb is also a former FDA commissioner and an MD, not just a Pfizer board member.

snowwrestler 5y ago
He’s also been a prolific public commenter during the pandemic and one of the few who has been able to navigate the politics of explaining the situation accurately but still being accepted by many conservatives. In terms of the headline, being a Pfizer board member is a lot less important than knowing the comment is from Scott Gottlieb.

bhouston 5y ago

Why is this comment being downvoted? What part isn't true? This statement seems very specific to the US cultural context: “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. In Canada, there have been experiments with slowly increasing the number of areas where you are required to have a vaccine in order to enter. They put it on Beer/Liquor stores recently and it saw a huge jump in the number of vaccine appoints. https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/first-dose-vaccinations-quadruple-in-quebec-ahead-of-restrictions-at-liquor-and-cannabis-stores-1.5731327 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/first-dose-vaccinations-quadrupl... They are putting the requirement on big box stores (e.g. Home Depot/Lowes/Walmart, excluding the pharmacy areas) now and probably will see another jump. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1995579971859 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1995579971859 That said, it does appear that this current wave is mostly over, but deaths are primarily among the unvaccinated, so it is probably still a good idea to aim for near full vaccination: https://twitter.com/OurWorldInData/status/1486076680619937795 https://twitter.com/OurWorldInData/status/148607668061993779... Covid vaccines should be treated similarly to other public health vaccines, like Polio. Although we really need more effective Gen2 vaccines that do not require constant boosters and they need to outright prevent infection rather than just reducing the death rate. These Gen1 vaccines and their semi-effectiveness have been incredibly confusing to the general public.

msoad 5y ago
Why you care if others get the vaccine if it does not stop the spread and new mutations as we saw with the recent variants I’m fully boosted etc. I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to Polio
- nicoburns 5y ago
  It doesn't stop the spread, but it slows it and reduces the severity of the disease. Both of which help our health services to cope. You might care because you want healthcare to be available for yourself or your loved ones should they need it.
  - 5y ago

tootie 5y ago

I think this is kind of a big "duh" statement. Mandates were issued in the face or surging numbers and we now have waning numbers. I'm very hesitant to declare victory too soon but the day is seemingly coming soon. Of course, we'll have to reverse course yet again if there's a new wave which very well might happen. The next stage should shipping billions of doses to the poor nations that haven't gotten any yet.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
Millions of people died, there's no victory.
- cies 5y ago
  Out of 8 billion that's not very impressive. Millions die in years without "pandemic". (quoted because in the past that mend >1% infection-deaths, this was <1%, yet still a pandemic).
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    Yeah and I don't call those victories either. We lost and need to do better when it happens again.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      Maybe we should outlaw tobacco, limit people's sugar intake via daily glucose testing, and ban alcohol while we're at it?
      - cies 5y ago
        I think people should be able to choose their vices. Suicide (slow or fast) is by it self not immoral to me.
      - micromacrofoot 5y ago
        Tobacco and sugar aren't contagious. If you want to continue down this path of false equivalence, many places have essentially outlawed second-hand smoke.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Some people are saying that this is notable because Pfizer has a financial incentive to keep vaccine mandates. That is not true. Pfizer is going to be making a lot more money from their COVID treatments than from the vaccine.

Arnt 5y ago
I think so too, but do you know? I mean, only a few per cent of infectees require much medicine, and Pfizer's market share won't be 100% of that. It's not obvious that x>y. Anyway, he may also well be thinking that the best policy is to have a history of assessments that turn out to be correct in hindsight. "Drop restrictions when the number of infections declines" is at least plausible.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Paxlovid is interesting in that it is only really effective if you take it as soon as you show any symptoms. Once production is scaled up, hundreds of millions of courses of treatment will be sold. Each around 100x more expensive than a vaccine dose. It will soon be Pfizer's financial benefit to have as many infections as possible.
fileeditview 5y ago
I doubt that. Consider no one was vaccinated and 1% of humans would need medication because of a "serious" case. Then the medicine would need to be 100x more expensive than the vaccine considering the alternative is everyone was vaccinated. Now consider many people got 3 or even 4 shots. It's 300x-400x now. Also you can give the medicine to already vaccinated people that also have serious cases. So you still can sell it in a lower capacity. Also you can sell both vaccines and medicine to states in large batches which is great. It's a big golden goose for the pharma industry.. let's never forget that.
- yucky 5y ago
  Fortunately we can trust that they aren't using any of those billions they have made to manipulate public opinion on the issue, because that would be immoral and therefore off limits.

cies 5y ago

I could not care less, but then it seems these guys --through lots of lobby and special interest groups-- basically dictate governmental policy the world over.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jpgvm 5y ago

Actually seems like a very level headed guy. His record at the FDA is better than I would have expected from someone with such deep industry ties but it looks like he took the job to heart and did it well. At this point with the rate Omicron has been spreading here in Australia I don't think masks are making much/any difference anymore - seems like this variant is just off the charts w.r.t transmissibility. Vaccine mandates though I think make sense for the same reason we have mandated immunization in Australia for many other diseases. Unlike somewhere like the US you can't attend a school (any school, not just public schools) without the appropriate vaccines or a medical diagnosis exempting you. So a vaccine mandate for Covid-19 isn't really anything new here. Despite that there is now some political debate about it because we seem to have imported a lot of US hysteria the last decade or two. Vaccine mandate will help keep herd immunity maintained which reduces deaths among those that actually can't get the vaccine rather than just anti-vax nonsense.

zzzeek 5y ago

So he was referring to the "east coast". In New York State where I live, we have 95% first-dose vaccination status for adults and 73% for complete vaccine series (https://twitter.com/GovKathyHochul/status/1486083384682192896 https://twitter.com/GovKathyHochul/status/148608338468219289...) . so here, continued vaccine mandates won't have much additional effect. However, I would venture to say a whole lot of that 95% has been vaccinated *because* of the mandates that were temporarily in effect at the national level as well as the mandates that continue to be in effect (health care workers, federal contractors, large employers that mandate vaccination in any case). My general sense is that the vaccine mandates, despite their being in the process of being torn down by a very broken supreme court, most certainly helped a whole lot in states where state-level leadership was on board with the general idea. in conservative states where vaccination rates are low, state governments are in varying degrees of defiance towards the federal government, vaccine mandates are not as effective because of the very great resistance to them in these states. you could argue that continued vaccine mandates will continue to not be very effective, and for that reason they should also be rescinded. I'd guess some replies here will make this kind of argument. I would disagree with that argument, and it's my opinion that vaccine mandates should stay in place to the degree that it's the right thing to do, as well as the completely normal and traditional thing to do from a public health standpoint. The fierce political interference with traditional public health measures is unfortunate but that should not be a rationale for sensible policies to just be switched off.

peteradio 5y ago
The policies are sensible in your opinion, you will find that is where you are in disagreement with myself at least. The policies might be sensible with rose colored glasses and a pint of hope, but its not like what we imagined it would be way back a year ago. Ultimately vaccines should be used for those who benefit but forcing it on those who don't need it is just checking a box. Quit pretending like we don't know that most Americans have had Covid by now and that this imparts significant immunity.
nathanaldensr 5y ago

bencoder 5y ago

It's amazing to me that every post that has anybody arguing against the restrictions or similar gets flagged, no matter the source or rationale. It's really the most divisive issue I've ever seen in my life.

walterbell 5y ago
Or there are financial incentives, which may justify paid interventions online to create the appearance of divisiveness. There are PR agencies which specialize in "grassroots PR". Users can email hn@ycombinator.com to ask for human review of flagged articles. If the article still remains flagged, only then is the flag sanctioned by HN moderators. Otherwise, flags could be anywhere on the spectrum between organic users, troll botnets and paid interventions. Is there an API to HN data which could report granular data on article flags, e.g. timestamps or user IDs doing the flagging?
hatware 5y ago
If you've been playing pandemic longer than necessary, you'd clutch your pearls too.
mullingitover 5y ago
> no matter the source or rationale In all fairness, it doesn't get much less credible than the Epoch Times.
supperburg 5y ago
spookthesunset 5y ago
> It's really the most divisive issue I've ever seen in my life. I've been yelled at and called very awful things by people I know in real life. Biggest clue that this is 90% hysteria and 10% real.... What ever happened to keep calm and carry on.

tzs 5y ago

Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated, however, Covid is worse than any other common virus. It has killed more than 865,000 Americans, the vast majority unvaccinated. In the weeks before vaccines became widely available, Covid was the country’s No. 1 cause of death, above even cancer and heart disease. At this point if an adult in the US is unvaccinated it is (1) almost certainly by choice (there are some people who cannot get it for medical reasons but they make up only a very tiny fraction of the unvaccinated), and (2) it is very unlikely that any evidence or logical arguments will chance their minds. With COVID becoming endemic everyone is going to get antibodies, with the only choice being whether you get your first antibodies by vaccination or by getting COVID. The only question really then is how fast do we want the unvaccinated to do the getting antibodies by getting COVID thing. The faster they get it, the faster we can be as done with COVID as we are ever going to be. I'd say the answer to that should be determined by the hospital capacity. If a region has sufficient hospital capacity that it would not be overwhelmed by the increase in COVID cases among the unvaccinated go ahead and lift most restrictions.

systemvoltage 5y ago
CDC's new paper throws a wrench in all of these arguments from NYT: https://thepulse.one/2022/01/24/cdc-admits-the-obvious-natural-covid-immunity-is-extremely-powerful/ https://thepulse.one/2022/01/24/cdc-admits-the-obvious-natur...
encryptluks2 5y ago
> The faster they get it, the faster we can be as done with COVID as we are ever going to be. This reminds me of the arguments that unvaccinated were the cause of COVID-19 and were endangering those who are vaccinated. Vaccinated people get and spread COVID still. In fact, recent studies show natural immunity or vaxxed plus COVID causes much more antibodies than simply getting vaccinated, especially with a vaccine that targets an old mutation that has proven much less effective against Omicron and the likes. The vaccinated people will prob continue to get vaccinated a few times a year until they get a less dangerous variant.

walterbell 5y ago

The media's binary separation of populations into vax and unvax is a false dichotomy. More causal factors would be represented by: 1. Covid-recovered 2. Vaccinated 3. Partly-vaccinated (< 14 days after 2nd shot) 4. Covid-naive + Unvaccinated CDC reporting bundles #3 and #4. UK reports all 4 categories separately. #1 was already a high percentage in 2021 and is now higher due to Omicron. Edit: CDC estimated pre-Omicron #1 as 146 million people (as of Oct 2021), https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...

ifyoubuildit 5y ago
It is so amazing to me how many people don't seem to recognize this. My (somewhat baseless) speculation on this is that a lot of the people in forums like HN are early adopter types who mostly work from home, and so were able to avoid exposure and got the vaccine relatively early. From this standpoint, I could see it being harder to empathize with folks who were exposed in everyday life (it's just a simple jab, I did it, why can't everyone else? Or maybe even those folks must be bad/lesser people if they didn't stop themselves from being infected). Combine that with the constant onslaught of media time that pointedly ignores the categories that you breakdown above, and maybe it's no wonder that people have the opinions on this that they do.
- hatware 5y ago
  Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. It's almost like there's a narrative here.
  - tharne 5y ago
    > Not to mention all of the vaccine injuries that do exist but are rarely reported on. Source?
    - twofornone 5y ago
      Consider for a moment that the "antivaxxers" are correct, that there is enormous bias in our medical, pharmaceutical, and media establishments in favor of vaccine safety. Could you really expect a reliable source on the subject if this were the case? What proportion of people are willing to speak out and risk career and social suicide for being labeled an "antivaxxer"? It is a self reinforcing chilling effect - few people speak out, data does not surface, fewer people look for evidence of adverse events, and over time it becomes riskier and more difficult to convince people that something is amiss. Meanwhile the internet is awash with anecdote of severe symptoms following vaccination, and particularly concerning are frequent reports of doctors who are dismissive and/or refuse to submit reports on adverse effects. And then there are occasional claims of specialists in various neurological or heart related disciplines who claim to be seeing an unprecedented spike in certain normally rare symptoms among vaccinated patients. Yeah, they could all be lying or this could be the nocebo effect or it's an army of bots spreading antivaxx propaganda...or maybe you can't magically accelerate a 5+ year testing and evaluation schedule for a novel technology merely because the president says he wants a vaccine yesterday? Note that the clinical data from pfizer and moderna is not available to the public - we are essentially relying on the manufacturers good faith with respect to the safety data that lead to approval by the FDA (moderna still isn't approved, by the way). https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102 https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102

quaffapint 5y ago

I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice. My problem with mandates is where does it end? Why this mandate and not other mandates? Who gets to decide that?

peter422 5y ago
It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the decisions.
- robrorcroptrer 5y ago
  Could the global obesity epidemic not also be handled through mandates?
  - Guest42 5y ago
    True, I imagine that would be quite frightening and have a lot of data to support a number of initiatives that the population would vehemently disagree with. Even in grade school, I remembered dreading when they would have us run a mile as fast as we could and record the times.
  - generalenvelope 5y ago
    Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. These factors differ widely between individuals. I think there are mandates that could help make the disease less prevalent, but it is very much ingrained in our daily life, so I'm cynical as to the efficacy of such measures. It's very difficult to mandate behavioral (look at how many people don't even want to put a mask on) or environmental (think what foods are available in a region based on scarcity, culture etc - and yes this is a real factor in obesity) changes. A concise video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c
    - nobody9999 5y ago

Bhilai 5y ago

I am done. I did my part, wore masks (sometimes double masks,) three shots of vaccines and took all reasonable precautions that a sane person could do. But there are still unmasked people and unvaccinated people (sure, blame me for putting everyone in this binary category) and I am done caring about this class of people. I could not see my family for two years due to one or the other international travel restrictions. I am done being a respectful citizen who does their duty towards society. There are "experts" on all sides providing conflicting science mixed with opinions and research keeps changing every few weeks. Call it an endemic and do away with all the mandates they are yet another source for causing division by the political class. Sorry about this fatalist and flippant tone.

xattt 5y ago
What’s your perspective on small kids too young to be vaccinated?
- ryan93 5y ago
  zero risk of death from covid
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Not zero, but so incredibly low as not to be matter for concern in terms of risk assessment. One of the few upsides of this pandemic is that young children are the least affected, and with vaccines available for ages 5 and up this risk is well mitigated for older children (teens in particular).
Izkata 5y ago
> and I am done caring about this class of people. And their response will be "Finally! This is all we've wanted this entire time!" I don't think most here understand just how much "this class of people" value freedom over safety.
- rajup 5y ago

andrewclunn 5y ago

> “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. Nope. That line was crossed a long time ago. I can't imagine people suddenly regaining trust in pharma companies and health care agencies now because they backed off at this point.

xadhominemx 5y ago
Do you really think Republicans are not getting vaccinated because they “don’t trust” pharma companies?
- andrewclunn 5y ago
  Speaking as a Republican who has not gotten vaccinated, yes.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    Before COVID vaccines, Republicans on average trusted pharma way more than Democrats. In general, distrust in pharma is the effect, not the cause, of anti-vax sentiment. I don’t know what’s going on in your specific case. I suspect you are comparing the health risk of vax to not vax, instead of the risk of vax to COVID, which is the comparison you should be making since everyone is going to get omicron eventually, but whatever.
    - andrewclunn 5y ago
      I already got Covid. If you spent a little less time assuming other people's positions (and their motivations), you might find the space to hear them instead.
      - 5y ago

mbg721 5y ago

Why is the opinion of a Pfizer board member relevant to legal policy? In other news, McDonald's board members are quite fond of wafer-thin beef patties.

rory 5y ago
He's a former FDA commissioner, so his opinion is arguably relevant. I'm not sure why they called him "Pfizer board member." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Gottlieb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Gottlieb
- guilhas 5y ago
  "One hand washes the other"
- xdennis 5y ago
  Is it because he's a board member? I remember a time when people thought it worrying when regulators moved to highly paid positions of the companies they were in charge of regulating.
  - rory 5y ago
    I mean the description is correct, just not the most relevant identifier. If Ronald Blaylock (investment banker and another board member) made a statement like this, I doubt anyone would care. But yeah, having our required health treatments controlled by a group of Goldman Sachs et al executives and former regulators collecting large payouts from a company they previously regulated isn't ideal.

xboxnolifes 5y ago

(USA point of view) I feel like given that vaccines do an acceptable job at reducing risk of hospitalization and death, there is only really a few things worth discussing, in relevant order: - Are hospitals actually being overloaded by covid cases to the point of being an issue (according to many, yes. but according to [1] Johns Hopkins, no, or only in some cases?). - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the covid related cases (as far as I'm aware, yes). - Is this localized (state or city specific), or is this a federal issue. - Are unvaccinated hospitalizations significantly worse compared to other personal decisions (diet, exercise, risky hobbies). - Finally, what actions, if any, should be taken to correct the hospital load? (nothing, vaccine mandates, accelerated hospital expansion, turning people away, etc) - If the answer to the previous is nothing, then what are we even doing? The focus on just asking "vaccine mandate, yes or no" feels like it's missing most of the discussion. [1] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/hospitalization-7-day-trend

throw__away7391 5y ago
Remember when the US invaded Iraq to "find weapons of mass destruction"? Then a year or two later that shifted to "fighting the terrorist there so we don't have to fight them here", then "winning hearts and minds" or something. Once you get a mandate for a large-scale, politically charged activity it will never stop; the goal posts will be moved again and again, as many times as it takes and as often as necessary to put the "other side" on the defensive. We're many weeks past "three weeks to flatten the curve", every week we hear more excuses. My friends pick them up and start parroting them in near perfect unison. I don't actually have any Republican friends, but if I did I'm sure I'd hear something similar from them too. This is no longer about fighting a disease, if it ever was (I also remember the response to AIDS being somewhat less dramatic than to COVID), this is about securing access to resources and power for one group over another. If it means thousands of your followers are discouraged from taking potentially life saving vaccinations (that you yourself have taken) and die as a result, so be it. If it means subjecting billions of people to years of unnecessary and demonstrably ineffective pandemic theater, crushing the financial future of the next generations, and destroying vast swaths of small businesses people have spent their lives building while realizing unprecedented returns on your own portfolio, so be it. The people running this do not care about any of this in the slightest, it's just an excuse to enrich themselves, and for a certain segment of the upper middle class to feel morally superior to others while they take Zoom calls from home and order dinners from Seamless. I guess this is getting boring for them now, so we're starting to be allowed to hear a trickle of stories like this.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

logitjoy 5y ago

I wonder the people who are questioning vaccine mandates (which evidently brings down the hospital admission rates, thereby saving the health system) also question no public nudity mandates?

jlcoff 5y ago
ChrisClark 5y ago
They probably scream at everyone around them when they need to get a driver's license or can't smoke in a restaurant. They shriek, "My body, my choice", when they get behind the wheel drunk. And so on and so forth. :D

canoebuilder 5y ago

Am I the only one who finds it heinous that “Pfizer board member” is supposed to give this position more credence as opposed to what should just be clearly obvious to any level headed civic minded individual in the American/western tradition? “Okay y’all, weve profited at your expense quite enough, let’s dial it back a little before causing too much societal damage writ large” -“Pfizer board member

3glkjlkjlkg 5y ago

res0nat0r 5y ago

Good article here about "endemic" and the still large problems that portend: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x > The word ‘endemic’ has become one of the most misused of the pandemic. And many of the errant assumptions made encourage a misplaced complacency. It doesn’t mean that COVID-19 will come to a natural end. > In other words, a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria killed more than 600,000 people in 2020. Ten million fell ill with tuberculosis that same year and 1.5 million died. Endemic certainly does not mean that evolution has somehow tamed a pathogen so that life simply returns to ‘normal’. > Stating that an infection will become endemic says nothing about how long it might take to reach stasis, what the case rates, morbidity levels or death rates will be or, crucially, how much of a population — and which sectors — will be susceptible. Nor does it suggest guaranteed stability: there can still be disruptive waves from endemic infections, as seen with the US measles outbreak in 2019. Health policies and individual behaviour will determine what form — out of many possibilities — endemic COVID-19 takes.

scarmig 5y ago
Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massive (and homophobic) violation of civil liberties. But because mask and vaccine resistance is red tribe coded, a lot of people who would usually be level-headed about epidemiology and cost-benefit analyses end up in a stance driven more by moralizing than sound science.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  I don't have to worry about getting HIV every time I go out in public just because some jerk decided he has a god-given right to breathe viral particles into my lungs even though a simple and safe vaccine is readily available.

exogeny 5y ago

Not a single person mentioning this is sourced from The Epoch Times?

roody15 5y ago

The Omicron variant has so far shown itself to be milder and overall less dangerous to the vaccinated and unvaccinated. So far it appears to leave patients with good immunity after recovery. This trend is playing out in the US and western Europe. Ireland has dropped its restrictions .. Denmark also just announced dropping restrictions. The board member is correct here, despite anyones personal thoughts on covid vaccinations, vaccine requirements etc.. at least for now this latest variant seems to be forcing a change in narrative.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Animats 5y ago

Pfizer sells a coronavirus treatment.[1] So more cases are good for their bottom line. "Cures are nice, but the money is in chronic conditions." [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/fda-authorizes-pfizers-covid-treatment-pill-the-first-oral-antiviral-drug-cleared-during-the-pandemic.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/fda-authorizes-pfizers-covid...

balls187 5y ago
This was from 1999. Language Warning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN3d5S_MTk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN3d5S_MTk
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

partiallypro 5y ago

I think everyone should get vaccinated, but at this point if you aren't...you aren't going to. So, it's a waste. I think it's time to move on from this. It is understandable that people are afraid of getting sick, dying etc., but 2-3 years is a long part of your life. It's ruining lives in more ways than just people getting sick. I feel bad for people that live in a constant state of fear in states/countries that have been incredibly strict. My state has been more or less the same now, nothing in my life has really changed aside from the price increases and shortages in both goods and labor. I can't travel to many places I want to though because of fear I'll get there, and everything will be locked down. When this first started I was upset with people going out, etc. but as time has marched on, we know enough about the virus in terms of prevention, treatment, and the low chance of serious infection. I think my opinion is pretty popular among the populace, but it's astounding how it has not been treated as such in the media and government.

djmips 5y ago

I didn't realize there were so many eccentrics on HN, or is there a campaign?

j_m_b 5y ago

We need some good 'ol FOMO to encourage vaccination: First month, it's free, second month, it costs $10, third month, it costs $100, fourth mount, $1000.

cortexio 5y ago

ffwd 5y ago

If everyone is unmasked and the Omicron variant seems to burn through the vaccines in terms of infection but not serious illness, does that mean that it can lead to more mutations and more _bad_ mutations if so many people get it? What's the "mutation rate" in a person who has mild or no symptoms and how infectious are they? It just seems if one sick person creates a bad variant that is more infectious or even more deadly (and burn through the vaccines like Omicron) and everyone is unmasked/etc at the same time then such a variant could spread wide without immediate detection. I have no idea if any of this is true so take it with a grain of salt...

vmception 5y ago

Lets forget about everything divisive before omicron: Cloth masks and omicron are pointless right guys? It is less effective to the point of irrelevance for a virus that is less dangerous to the point of irrelevance And we cant get N95s still so this is all theater to have said mandate. Why/why not?

boopmaster 5y ago

I am not sure why we have vaccine mandates that businesses are expected to audit for entry. That to me is absurd. I do not need to provide proof of MMR to enter a McDonalds. I am vaccinated and boosted, but the invasiveness in these requests is a little over the top. Regarding masks, well businesses do often require shirt and shoes for service. I fail to see where masks differ at all in that regard.

sharken 5y ago

Good, now try to convince the French. The vaccine passport is such a bad idea. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-01-24/france-restricts-unvaccinated-from-restaurants-other-venues https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-01-...

balaji1 5y ago

giveback

terminatornet 5y ago

> “The only way to get compliance from people and get accommodation [is] if we demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in,” Gottlieb added. The only way to get people to wear masks and get vaccinated is to not make them wear masks or get vaccinated. Also, didn't we just do this 9 months ago where cases were decreasing, everyone got vaccinated and the CDC said we could burn our masks since vaccines meant we couldn't spread the virus? Looking forward to our yearly "covid is over" every spring for the rest of my life.

skarz 5y ago

Pfizer would be smart to not push for mandates -- as would anyone else wanting to see more vaccinations, period. More people would probably get their vaccine by choice if it were not forced on them. WE have known this for a long time. Glad they are catching wind of how this all works, psychologically.

eyelidlessness 5y ago

> demonstrate the ability to withdraw these [mandates] in the same manner in which we put them in Just as people commonly rush out of a burning building, then swiftly right back into it. Because they’re safe from the fire now, and being outside the burning building is a life threatening emergency.

tamaharbor 5y ago

Why are people so afraid of something that has less than 0.01% of killing them? I am living my life as normally as I can, yet I am unvaccinated and rarely ever wear a mask. I feel mankind has handled this poorly, and has created many more unnecessary problems. I wish more people would join me, living life to its fullest. This thing will only be over when WE decide it is.

aakresearch 5y ago
I am with you. I have looked at age distribution of covid deaths multiple times and it seems to me that the risk is roughly the same as the background probability of dying from any cause within a year as presented here: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html. The number corresponding to my age from that table is around 1/300. Doubling that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'd probably start being slightly concerned once the background probability reaches 1%, i.e. at the age of about 60. Now, as someone obese with hypertension and pre-diabetes, I am sure my covid risk is somewhat higher, but still immaterial in light of my background risk, which is much, much, much higher. It is the latter that I should be working on, and what I'm trying to do when suicide ideation and the madness of mask and vax mandates momentarily loses it's grip on me. I am absolutely livid that those who set up these rules to combat the minuscule probability all but ensure that real big probabilities for many people will grow even bigger. Talk about penny-wise and pound-foolish. For some reason they do not even acknowledge that concerns other than covid exist, that are absolutely dwarfing their fearmongering despite all their trying. The message I am hearing from covid-enthusiasts is: "You're rubbish, crazy, mental nutjob. Your problems are imaginary, and if you die tomorrow from your own hand, good riddance! Our fully vaxed percentage will go higher, for the common good."

IMAYousaf 5y ago

I've always found this to be much ado about nothing.