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Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

1209 points by baybal2 5y ago

Kharvok 5y ago
We can't trust multinationals with our data. They will sell us all out.
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago
  you can't trust them to protect our freedom of speech, our privacy, to save the environment, to care about how social media impacts kids, you can't trust them for anything, ever.
rodneyzeng 5y ago
Yeah, China is taking advantage of US companies, state governments, to compete with USA. There are lots of company leaders and governors can benefit from secrete negotiations with China government. There is only one China, but there are tons of American businesses.
- sneak 5y ago
  In some regards (foot-pounds), Apple is way more of a Chinese company than an American one. Nearly all of the people who actually make Apple products are Chinese citizens subject to Chinese law, in China.
thenthenthen 5y ago
I read a lot about manufacturing, but I dont think the real growth market is in manufacturing. I dont read anything about it here in the thread but what about the growth market for data? Especially referring to apples icloud services in PRC and physical datacenter, in guiyang (just like microsoft, ibm btw)
moogly 5y ago
At what point does something like this become a national security issue? I know these modern titans of industry answer to no one, but perhaps they should?
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  I find it interesting you see Apple a national asset needing special scrutiny. It might as well be true, but then you should also expect other countries to start dealing with Apple as a part of the US gov. and not a purely private party.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    >you should also expect other countries to start dealing with Apple as a part of the US gov. and not a purely private party That is exactly what happened and that's why they approached Tim Cook.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dariusj18 5y ago
    Lockheed Martin is a private company with all sorts of laws on what they can and cannot do with foreign countries. It is not weird to create special categories for niche protected industries.
    - makeitdouble 5y ago
      Would Lockheed Martin also be negociating tax breaks with Ireland and forefront line development costs of factories in Taiwan ? Or provide separated enclaves for EU countries ? Right now Apple is an international consumer company at its core, which makes its positioning a lot different than defense contractors or power producers for instance.
      - dariusj18 5y ago
        We used to regulate a lot more of consumer electronics ability to operate overseas, those restrictions have eased, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't come back if companies start to act irresponsibly. Also, yes, Lockheed Martin does operate in different countries (Ireland included) and most likely does negotiate quite heavily with factories around the world.
bell-cot 5y ago
So...local politicians, in a market where Apple was making money hand-over-fist, were feeling kinda used. By a huge foreign corporation. And the they started getting sticky on all sorts of regulatory things that Apple needed. Until Apple's CEO promised to do a bunch of "local investing" in their country. How different is this from the 1980's in the U.S., when Japanese auto makers decided that they needed to start building cars in America, and otherwise placating American politicians and voters with big piles of money?
- sschueller 5y ago
  Bribery is illegal, just ask FIFA and the FBI.
  - dev_tty01 5y ago
    I didn't see any evidence of bribery. Please point that out. Companies make investments in countries all the time for concessions on reduced taxes, streamlined approvals, etc... When Apple wanted to enter India's markets in a bigger way, they agreed to build a factory there. What is the difference? This is just how big business is done all over the world. I'm not making a judgement about whether this is good or bad, I just don't get all of the outrage and surprise over a process that is far from unusual.
- ohmanjjj 5y ago
  Apple paid protection money. Pretty simple, no need to sugar coat it
  - chrischen 5y ago
    That’s what all government is: a racket.
    - ethanbond 5y ago
      Life before nationstates was famously prosperous, safe, and enriching.
uniqueuid 5y ago
The really interesting question is of course: What conditions are there outside of China? Has Apple agreed to behave differently in the US, censoring apps or content or disadvantaging competitors?
ksec 5y ago
Since this is finally out, I am hopping they have all the other juicy details in supply chain, where Apple lifted suppliers to their standard and help them build out / counter balance competitors. ( Also interesting this is coming out from The Information, which tends to be an Apple shill for many years from Apple PR. But I am looking at BOE, YMTC and Luxshare. Should be the easiest find and leaks. If they do intend to go deep into it. )
- georgeburdell 5y ago
  You’re not the only one “hoping”. Apple is a shameful company
gonehome 5y ago
Apple’s approach to China remains the most disappointing (and hypocritical) thing about the company. When privacy really matters for the users that need it most, Apple sells them out for continued access to the Chinese market. https://stratechery.com/2021/the-information-on-apple-in-china-apples-deal-evaluating-apples-china-risk/ https://stratechery.com/2021/the-information-on-apple-in-chi...
- ISL 5y ago
  Is Stratechery's paywall new? I'm surprised to see one from an author who writes in a voice that aspires to reach the world.
  - dcwca 5y ago
    Worth the subscription fee for sure
  - gonehome 5y ago
    Ah I didn't realize this was a daily one (I subscribe) - he does a mixture of free and not free. I think the subscription is worth it though.
  - divbzero 5y ago
    Having the financial means to develop and maintain his voice seems like a reasonable part of that aspiration. The author is fully supported by his work with Stratechery. [1] [1]: https://stratechery.com/about/ https://stratechery.com/about/
  - mdekkers 5y ago
    I pay for Stratechery. It’s absolutely worth it. Top tier analysis.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  I assumed it was firstly access to Chinese manufacturing. They can probably still make humongous profits without the Chinese market, but presumably their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China?
literallyaduck 5y ago
When Apple and HP collaborated, HP was forced to cram iTunes on its devices for years. China isn't known for respecting IP, not sure who is the "good guy" in this collaboration, almost like the Borg and Cylons joined forces.
inasio 5y ago
Disregarding the human rights/politics background, this sounds like standard operating procedure for Apple: Do whatever it takes to have unimpeded access to the best tools/tech needed for their mission
- mhoad 5y ago
  Except no, you shouldn’t just disregard the human rights / politics in search of “the best tools” which happens to be low waged workers who were famously killings themselves at work in such large numbers that their solution was to install nets so that they wouldn’t die when jumping out the windows anymore,
  - inasio 5y ago
    I didn't mean to imply that you should disregard human rights, only that when you look at it from a strictly strategic point of view, it aligns with the strategy that Apple follows in many other areas. See for example buying full chip lines, entire display supply, even for the gigantic windows they use at the Apple stores.
pupppet 5y ago
This will be the logical conclusion to every major American corporation unless someone puts a stop to this. If profit comes before everything, then so will China's 1.4B potential market vs US's 330M market.
- titzer 5y ago
  It's growthism driving this. If you need to grow your revenue 20% year-over-year every year for decades, pretty soon you have to swallow ungodly amounts of new dollars. You can either gobble more of the market (higher market share), grow the market, or find new markets. And growthism will mine out every one of those possibilities.
- lastofthemojito 5y ago
  It seems to be Apple's standard MO to comply with local regulations regardless of market size. They've complied with Russian demands[0,1] and it looks like Apple Rus accounts for something like 2.6% of Apple's revenue, a fraction that Apple could probably do without. From a recent interview[2] with Tim Cook: >"World peace through world trade," Cook said, adding that operating in foreign countries means Apple has to "acknowledge that there are different laws in other markets." 0: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/apple-and-google-cave-to-putins-censors-block-navalny-app-as-election-begins/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/apple-and-google... 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50573069 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50573069 2: https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-china-tim-cook-responsibility-world-peace-world-trade-2021-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-china-tim-cook-respons...
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    >World peace through world trade And here I was under the impression that most everyone - everyone important enough at least - understood that Fukuyama was (very) wrong. Perhaps his definition of "world peace" is different.
    - lastofthemojito 5y ago
      I'm not sure where Fukuyama and Friedman agree and disagree, but Cook's quote struck me as Friedman-esque. It sounds like he sees Apple as a player in Friedman's Dell Theory of Conflict Prevention: "No two countries that are both part of a major global supply chain, like Dell’s, will ever fight a war against each other as long as they are both part of the same global supply chain". (Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace)
drno123 5y ago
Interestingly, Apple could also cause problems to TSMC. Because of Apple-first policy, at least two major chip manufacturers* are moving away from TSMC. One is even completely obsoleting a line of products that was previously being manufactured at TSMC. At the same time, while Apple can get processors from TSMC, their iPhone production is lagging behind due to shortage of power supply ICs. * - not sure if this info is already public, I am NDA bound to disclose more.
- mdasen 5y ago
  We've seen articles about Qualcomm and AMD shifting to Samsung and away from TSMC. Some of Qualcomm's new processors are already moved over to Samsung. The 780G and 888 are already on Samsung's 5nm process. I don't think AMD has moved things, but we've seen articles about it noting how Apple is getting first-access to TSMC's latest processes. > One is even completely obsoleting a line of products that was previously being manufactured at TSMC That sounds a bit odd. AMD/Qualcomm products basically obsolete themselves very quickly. People generally aren't looking to buy a Snapdragon 855 from 2019. They'll either be buying the 888 or one of Qualcomm's cheaper lines (like the 700 or 600 series). It seems weird to prematurely obsolete something given that it's likely on a process that you already have enough TSMC capacity for. I mean, clearly I could be wrong. Maybe Samsung offered them something to do that and move things over faster.
- stevehawk 5y ago
  and if TSMC ends up doing nothing but supplying Apple.. then it likely means they'll end up being a wholly owned Apple subsidiary
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    Why would Apple by the cow, when they can squeeze more concessions and profits from a captive "partner" who can't easily transition away?
einpoklum 5y ago
Well, I happen to know that Apple management signed many deals with the US, which is just as problematic of a world state as China, if not more so. That is to say - unless you have a planet-wide blind spot, this title evokes the same emotional response as, say, "JD.com signed RMB 275B deal with US corporations in 2016".
- poutine 5y ago
  There is no moral equivalency between the US and China. Stop this right away.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    What do you mean no moral equivalency? Are you suggesting one is obviously superior than the other? Judging the behaviors in the 21st century, I think China is morally superior to US? Based on the wars invoked by IS, and the poverty elimination done by China. Obviously China improved Chinese citizens living standard dramatically, while US are doing the opposite across the world.
    - trasz 5y ago
      Sadly, this discussion always goes the same way. You'll see accusations of concentration camps, then countered by the existence of actual forced labour camps (private prisons), then "countered" by being called a weebo. It's a fundamental mental difference between many Americans and the rest of the western world, the american exceptionalism.
      - rscoots 5y ago
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    - onepointsixC 5y ago
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      - 5y ago
dirtyid 5y ago
Apple was growing massively in PRC in mid 2010s, should not be surprising they got roped into more prosocial and pro-establishment (read CCP) obligations. If memory serve this was right after Apple started clean energy programs in 2015 and PRC regulators shutting down itunes books & movies. >Cook's negotiations led to the successful signing of the multibillion-dollar agreement, quashing a number of regulatory actions against the company with exemptions and enabling access to the Chinese market, in return for significant investments, business deals, and worker training in the country. Keyword is exemptions and access, aka what you expect from trillion dollar company lobbying governments.
- fundad 5y ago
  It's not surprising but it's a surprise. All the lobbying for the US Tariff exemptions were out in the open, if it was revealed as a surprise it would look like bribery.
jms703 5y ago
It’s the shareholders’ company and the shareholders got what they wanted, access to more revenue and profits.
ipv6ipv4 5y ago
Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial dispute between China and Japan, appear large even when users zoomed out from them. Chinese regulators also threatened to withhold approval of the first Apple Watch, scheduled for release in 2015, if Apple didn’t comply with the unusual request, according to internal documents. Some members of the team back at Apple’s headquarters in Cupertino, Calif., initially balked at the demand. But the Maps app had become a priority for Apple, so eventually the company complied. The Diaoyu Islands, when viewed in Apple Maps in mainland China, continue to appear on a larger scale than surrounding territories." Apple has, and will, fold to government pressure faster than a lawn chair. 1. https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/12/08/the-information-apple-china https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/12/08/the-information...
- qeternity 5y ago
  I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    I think these things have a corrupting influence on the principles of the company over time: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html It's better to figure out an exit (imo) than continue to capitulate on these kinds of things, particularly in a country that is hostile to foreign companies and IP (and particularly if one of your company values is the privacy of your users). --- >>Peter Thiel: Well I think, again those aren’t the only two possibilities, I don’t think they created very much, I think a lot of it was just handed over from the west so it wasn’t even stolen. You know, I criticized Google a few years ago for refusing to work on its AI technology on Project Maven with the U.S. military, but working with Chinese universities and Chinese researchers. And since everything in China is a civilian- military fusion, Google was effectively working with the Chinese military, not with the American military. And there was sort of this question, “Why Google was doing this?” And one of the things that I was sort of told by some of the insiders at Google was they figured they might as well give the technology out through the front door, because if they didn’t give it – it would get stolen anyway. >>Peter Thiel: I had a set of conversations with some of the Google people in the deep mind AI technology, “is your AI being used to run the concentration camps in Xinjiang?” and “Well, We don’t know and don’t ask any questions.” You have this almost magical thinking that by pretending that everything is fine, that’s how you engage and have a conversation. And you make the world better. And it’s some combination of wishful thinking. It’s useful idiots, you know, it’s CCP fifth columnist collaborators. So it’s some super position of all these things. But I think if you think of it ideologically or in terms of human rights or something like that, I’m tempted to say it’s just profoundly racist. It’s like saying that because they look different, they’re not white people, they don’t have the same rights. It’s something super wrong. But I don’t quite know how you unlock that. https://nixonseminar.com/2021/04/the-nixon-seminar-april-6-2021-transcript/ https://nixonseminar.com/2021/04/the-nixon-seminar-april-6-2...
wnevets 5y ago
Say what you want about Google and Microsoft but at-least they have taken some steps to back away from China's oppressive government.
- gscott 5y ago
  Microsoft just hopes it can keep selling operating systems and Google has no market in China because the Chinese hate information. So they back off on anything controversial hoping for a better day to step in and sell something if possible.
jollybean 5y ago
There's nothing at all wrong with this unless it involves transfer or IP, know-how and of course the bits about privacy invasion. Every country should be concerned that the money flying out to megacorps does not result in long term value for the country.
moneywoes 5y ago
Is it strange google has avoided China for so long?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
tiffanyh 5y ago
Everyone new this back in 2016. On May 16, 2016 - China blocked Apple iTunes, Movies, etc [0]. On the same date, Apple invested $1B in Didi (Chinese “Uber”) [1] and magically China unblock Apple. So what’s new in this story? [0] https://amp.scmp.com/tech/leaders-founders/article/1945616/apples-tim-cook-arrives-china-charm-offensive https://amp.scmp.com/tech/leaders-founders/article/1945616/a... [1] https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0Y404W https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0Y404W
- newfonewhodis 5y ago
  > So what’s new in this story? A lot more.
- tatrajim 5y ago
  But the Apple book store and movie store were never restored, and Apple was forced to move their iCloud servers onshore to Guizhou. What did Apple gain from this apparent extortion?
  - seniorivn 5y ago
    they didn't lose anything else, like the whole market for example
- pembrook 5y ago
  The media has a constant need for boogiemen to keep you scared and clicking. In the 80s it was Russia, and in the 2020s it’s China. Of course it doesn’t make sense when looking at it rationally. Because it’s about emotion. I’m waiting for the 2040s after China’s population decline really gets going—-maybe India or Indonesia becomes the new boogie man. Fun!
vmception 5y ago
the comments, lol! > Maybe one day he should think about resettling to China… just saying. I mean yeah? Maybe? It's really not that hard to understand how to maintain high standing in multiple conflicting societies. Doing so in China is also not that difficult or bothersome, not any harder than maintaining good standing in a private platform like Youtube the analogy being that the arbitrary decisions follow unspoken rules but you can predict what those rules are and still have a great and endearing time. I get that we are raised not to respect that a government assumes that kind of role while tolerating private institutions that run our day to day lives operating the same way, but the assumption that day-to-day life is sooooo aggravating in China is just completely wrong.
- another_story 5y ago
  Day to day life in China is easy if you're in a Tier 1 city, able to speak/read Chinese, don't require stable access to non-China based internet services, don't mind the pollutuon and are not black or Indian. Even with some of these it's still OK, but it can be aggravating quickly. I feel like there is always someone in every apartment block constantly renovating and the drills on the walls never cease. Also, try transferring money put of the country. Spent more time in banks in China than all other places I've lived combined. And I speak Chinese, so most things are easier.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    What about the lifestyle of an average white collar job though? Don't they generally have a similar 50-60 hour week like other East Asian countries, South Korea and Japan, that would be considered quite excessive by western standards?
  - loudtieblahblah 5y ago
    Tim Cook should be forced to live there for the rest of his life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China
LatteLazy 5y ago
A billion dollar company (and Apple is a trillion dollar company) is a political entity. It's decisions have political effects. You cannot run a company that size and NOT expect governments of all sizes and types to come knocking with "requests".
- bogwog 5y ago
  Companies that large have too much power and need to be heavily regulated.
tomohawk 5y ago
Quizlings
scottcodie 5y ago
Apple works with the US government too. Apple operates in China so it'd be prudent to work with the government for mutual benefit. I'm not sure I see why this is being framed as a bad thing.
- sneak 5y ago
  Anything "China" or "Russia" in the USA has negative connotations, even when it is the exact same shit the US government does domestically. China, Russia, and the USA all work much the same way.
  - jjcon 5y ago
    As a German you of all people should understand the havok unchecked authoritarian regimes can have on people and the world. The USA may not be a perfect democracy/republic and it has certainly been through tough times as of late but it is foolish to resort to such false equivalence.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  There are two reasons. 1. The American government is the government where Apple has its HQ and most of its employees and C level. 2. The American government is not as bad as the Chinese government.
- fundad 5y ago
  In the US it's legal for the president to solicit bribes so they don't have to hide the agreements. They can do it out in the open.
andy_ppp 5y ago
I personally do not trust China, should we not assume computer hardware made there has invisible backdoors? The security state for example believe 5G shouldn't be controlled by Chinese companies, I'm certainly not sure I really trust what I say on this MacBook Pro, is there a way to prove it's not compromised as everyone says it's definitely not but I can imagine the Chinese suddenly just switching off half the computers in the West in the case of a war one day (say the US defending Taiwan). If I was them looking to become top of the hill I'd be instructing people at Foxconn and wherever else to provide me with backdoors into most computers sold in the West.
- zerohp 5y ago
  Many computer designs can be made by untrusted assemblers as long as the silicon fab, fusing, and packaging are trusted. Most Intel machines are not designed for it.
sebow 5y ago
"Secretly" is well-put between quotation marks, because i kind of recall when those "conspiracy-nuts"(as called by the media, of course) were specifically saying this during that period. I love how ignorant people can be about this biggest corporation US has.The labour it profits off is not ethical, and a simple search for "safety nets" should be enough to convince one of that.Then again most people don't give a sh1t when they want their new "3D face-unlocked emoji" feature.
analogdreams 5y ago
As positive as the tech companies have been for me directly (salary, my own business) and indirectly (investments) more and more I see these stories and the co's behavior and think they all need to be smashed into a million little pieces. It's becoming harder and harder to justify them as a net positive for mankind.
quickthrower2 5y ago
Life imitates Jason Bourne movie.
brutal_chaos_ 5y ago
When businesses become so large, they no longer are a $countryOfOrigin company (A US company in the case of Apple). They become multinational entities that have no loyalty to a nation, just loyalty to pocket books.
- bmitc 5y ago
  That is an excellent point and one I have tried bringing up before. Allowing corporations and individuals to obtain such massive amounts of wealth is a national security threat.
  - smt88 5y ago
    It is also a personal security threat and democracy threat. See also: http://expatalachians.com/biplanes-over-blair-calling-in-the-air-force-for-the-mine-wars http://expatalachians.com/biplanes-over-blair-calling-in-the...
    - bmitc 5y ago
      Yes, by national security I meant anything that country holds important (government, people, resources, etc.).
  - dopa42365 5y ago
    Ah yes, THE nation. Very specific, especially in this context.
    - bmitc 5y ago
      You're unnecessarily reading into it too much. By nation, I meant whatever nation houses one of these corporations, particularly the country that houses the headquarters.
  - brutal_chaos_ 5y ago
    As well as a disproportionate effect on the political systems, tax evasion, and so forth.
nutshell89 5y ago
I think that what many of the comments here miss is that "Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era" was not officially mentioned until a year later, and the Chinese Constitution was not amended until 2018. China in 2016 likely didn't appear like the threat to Western geopolitics that it does today.
elisbce 5y ago
I thought the HackerNews crowd could do better than "Google/Apple/X is offering something censored / is complying with local laws / local government requests in China/Russia/X so it must be bad and they must stop". Don't be so naive. 1. In order for US/international companies to survive in China/Russia/heavily censored countries or regions, they have to comply to local laws. Otherwise they are blocked or shutdown completely. 2. Despite having to comply, most of the times these large global companies have some power to fight back, negotiate and find middle grounds. 3. Having a presence is critical for the sake of the local people to seek information. Having Google censoring the search results would be 100x better than having Baidu willingly fake it. Having Apple fighting for all the information requests is 100x better than having local giants like Tencent and Huawei willingly building monitoring and censoring capabilities for all users. Without the presence, the people in these regions and countries have no choice. They don't have ways to access even censored information or knowing about the censorship at all. They will be fed with much more twisted information. Companies like Apple are doing their best negotiating and fighting back. Maybe they have to comply with 10% of demands, but the local alternative will do 100% in a blink of eye. And ironically they are the target of blame in both China and the US. It is not fair to them. Would you rather have someone fighting for the people, or would you want them to be like North Korea where nobody outside can get in?
- cronix 5y ago
  > they have to comply to local laws. Otherwise they are blocked or shutdown completely. I'm for the "we're for human rights above profits even if it means we don't do business at all in your totalitarian country" camp. > or would you want them to be like North Korea where nobody outside can get in? How many people are actually trying to or even want to get into NK? How many would like to leave?
  - elisbce 5y ago
    Please read my comment above for the reasons why "we don't do business at all in your totalitarian country" actually doesn't achieve your ideal "human rights above profits" goal.
- 5y ago
golemiprague 5y ago
They sue NSO for selling a spying software while giving the Chinese government full access and back door to all of their users.
blahgeek 5y ago
I’m a Chinese. I’m glad that apple did this. While I want apple to keep its dignity as much as you do, I cannot change our government (we don’t get to vote, so we literally cannot). Given this situation, if apple don’t do these kind of things, worse case scenario, it get banned in china just like google and many others. As a user, apple products are still the most privacy protecting products I can buy and use in china. (For example, do you know that Chinese government forbids end to end encryption? But iMessage is an exception). Business aside, I think apple protected the human rights in china the best way it could.
- option 5y ago
  you absolutely can and should change your government. Otherwise your children or grandchildren will have to and it will be even harder for them.
  - listless 5y ago
    That’s awful easy to armchair in from afar. On the ground that is a hell of an expectation.
    - option 5y ago
      yeah, tell me more. I was one of the students in Kiev, Ukraine during “Orange revolution” in 2004. Yeah, it is scary but not fighting for your future is scarier.
      - eunos 5y ago
        Fighting for having Gorbachev-like sellout as your future leader is much scarier.
      - masterof0 5y ago
        My friends did fight in Cuba for freedom during July's protests, now they are gone. Ukraine is wonderland compared to China, Venezuela, Cuba, etc... Gimme a break.
  - 5y ago
aerosmile 5y ago
An absolute zero on the patriotic scale. And when I say patriotic, I don't mean the "we're the best in the world" type of patriotic meaning, but more like "tiktok is a sign of things to come, let's try to slow down the inevitable ass-kicking of our economy that's upon us." Having said all that, he never had a choice to begin with. When Google decided to stand up to China, they didn't bet the farm but "only" a lower double digit percentage of their revenue (my hat's off to Google for that). Apple cannot produce their hardware anywhere else in the world at the scale and quality level that they are currently getting from China. I am saying this as someone who has a good amount of insight into how the Chinese production capability compares to other parts of the world. His fiduciary responsibility was to do what's best for the company. If he stepped down, it would have taken no time to find the next guy who would have happily done what's best for the company (except less well). So really, it's entirely inevitable. If you buy into the last sentence, you might want to ask yourself what the long-term future of a capitalist society looks like when it's economically attacked by a very capable totalitarian regime that can think strategically rather than being beholden to the capital markets.
wly_cdgr 5y ago
....Wait, Apple doesn't actually give a shit about privacy or any other supposed principle it lies about to sell products? Color me shocked bro
- fundad 5y ago
  As long as you wanted the product and got it in exchange for money, anything the company says can be safely ignored.
andy_ppp 5y ago
Imagine doing business with a government willing to disappear anyone who talks even slightly against them - and trusting them to be honest in their dealings. Jack Ma has not been particularly vocal of late has he…
js2sj 5y ago
It's very fair from my point of view. Think about it, you're company want to do business making a lot of money in my territory. Why would I let you? unless you give me some benefit as well. And the request from the government is to improve the country's technological capabilities and economy. Which government doesn't want this? If you see the country as a group of person, then it seems very normal. You want some benefit from me, you also need to help me, right? What's wrong with that?
claaams 5y ago
Tim Cook came into my bar and did not tip very well either. Why are billionaires so fucking disappointing constantly?
- justicezyx 5y ago
  Give some facts about the stats please? Average? Average in billionaires? Etc etc. Did not tip very well, what does that even mean. For example, maybe he is just stopping by, haven't use much of the waiters time, and thought it's OK Or maybe he thinks the service was poor Or even you just misremembering the details...
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Why are some businesses or people butthurt about not receiving money they did not communicate was owed to them?
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  Because they feel entitled to more and special treatment.
fnord77 5y ago
so how is this going to work out for apple? will the CCP start making bigger and bigger demands?
- ripbubu 5y ago
  Correct. Ding ding. Folks are trying to sound alarms. Steve built his company to dissent when Apple started to drift too far from those values it proudly puts on its front page, still. It’s fraud to have those up now, imo Let’s put down the kool-aid for a sec and agree that enough is enough. A coward dies a thousand deaths but a valiant man dies once. Justifying any entity participating in blatant genocide is cowardice.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
blondie9x 5y ago
This is what they call selling out.
boiler_up800 5y ago
Honestly the US Govt should be helping solve this with a trade deal. Instead they put the corporation in a position to have to pay this protection money.
- clarge1120 5y ago
  Underrated comment. This is the purpose of a national trade deal, so an American company has the weight of the US government for contract enforcement with foreign entities, regardless of size or influence, and so all American companies operate on a level playing field with regard to US law.
klebe 5y ago
the top comments talking about maps, it's absolutely insane 'The agreement included a pledge from Apple to help Chinese manufacturers develop "the most advanced manufacturing technologies," "support the training of high-quality Chinese talents," use more components from Chinese suppliers, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with research in Chinese universities, and directly invest in Chinese tech companies, as well as assistance with around a dozen Chinese government causes. If there were no objections from either side, the deal would be automatically be extended for an additional year until May 2022, according to the agreement.' 'Apple vowed to invest "many billions of dollars more" than its current expenditure in China, including on new retail stores, research and development facilities, and renewable energy projects. Other internal documents reportedly showed that Apple's pledge amounted to more than $275 billion in spending over a period of five years.' what do American citizens have to do to get this sort of treatment? Seems like a broken record at this point, but we truly have been sold at the absolute highest level. It's one thing to make these deals with a foreign hostile country - it's another to ask yourself: When's the last CEO I heard making these same promises to America? Or to any friendly country for that matter? As if the streets are paved with gold everywhere else? It aches my heart to be a young man in this country and see this be our so-called 'leaders'. I'm confident the tides have already turned against all this nonsense, though, and I look forward to rebuilding industries of the world with good-hearted men & women
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  What's despicable is that none of the mainstream media (WSJ, NYTimes, WaPo, Boston Globe, CNN, Fox, etc.) are covering this story. The American people atleast deserve to be informed. How is this not the biggest blow to Apple in terms of its relationship with China? For those who want to go to source: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chinese-authorities-apple-ceo-signed-275-billion-deal-with-them https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chine... Does anyone have subscription? Would love to read Archive.is copy. Thank you.
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    surely they will by the end of the week, after vetting sources?
concerned_4u 5y ago
[flagged]
DeathArrow 5y ago
If they gave in so easily to a government and agreed to give something about which they care a lot such a huge amount of money, imagine what they do if they are asked to hand over something they don't care as much such as user data.
jarlab 5y ago
Tim Crook
ripbubu 5y ago
Steve would have told CCP to fuck off.
- errcorrectcode 5y ago
  Tim Cook is an uncool beancounter whose only interests are money and appearing virtuous.
fergie 5y ago
"The Information suggests that Apple is heavily reliant on Cook for international negotiations and speculates that it could face difficulties dealing with government affairs when Cook stands down as the company's CEO." I wonder- is this true, or is this article trying to do some indirect PR/reputation building for Cook?
rkagerer 5y ago
The agreement included a pledge from Apple to help Chinese manufacturers develop "the most advanced manufacturing technologies," "support the training of high-quality Chinese talents," use more components from Chinese suppliers, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with research in Chinese universities, and directly invest in Chinese tech companies, as well as assistance with around a dozen Chinese government causes. The secrecy around it doesn't bode well, but to be frank the list above seems pretty innocuous. If it were the other way around or any other county I doubt many would care. The recent trend of countries toward isolationism scares me. The type of economic integration described above is healthy for world peace and how you avoid wars. I think the US had a much stronger effect toward global stability when it did a better job exemplifying the best of democracy and worked to spread its culture through economic and other ties.
Rastonbury 5y ago
How did they come to 275B over 5 years? That's 55B per year which I don't think shows up in their books
sebastianconcpt 5y ago
With this Apple is a big step closer to handling the rope that the CCP will tell it to use to hang itself. After stealing enough technology, of course.
roody15 5y ago
Apple is not progressive. Apple does not care about user privacy outside of a marketing strategy in US. Apple is not eco friendly. Apple is a mega corporation that in many ways is ruthless and efficient. They make solid hardware and are excellent at marketing. Apple will do whatever is needed to keep the money flowing. It has no problem adjusting its “core” values to meet different government needs. My two cents
ineedasername 5y ago
The title implies $275B in revenue (well, to me it does) but the article says "$275 billion in spending" That may be different than revenue for Apple. Does the pay wall article clarify this? Note: I'm not defending Apple here. Assisting a regime like the PRC with technology that could be used to further violate human rights is something the US should be monitoring and cracked down on with significant force, whether it's $275B or $10k
vixen99 5y ago
Will the unofficial tribunal judgment issued on the 9th November 2021 have any effect on Apple? The account of the Tribunal findings as given by BBC World today are almost too much to stomach. I suppose I should add these are 'alleged' but people should judge for themselves. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/09/china/uyghur-tribunal-judgment-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/09/china/uyghur-tribunal-jud...
vixen99 5y ago
I wonder how Apple views this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952
vixen99 5y ago
I wonder how Apple will react to this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952
rlewkov 5y ago
If it's on HN or Twitter or FB then it NOT a secret

1209 points by baybal2 5y ago

Kharvok 5y ago

We can't trust multinationals with our data. They will sell us all out.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago
you can't trust them to protect our freedom of speech, our privacy, to save the environment, to care about how social media impacts kids, you can't trust them for anything, ever.

rodneyzeng 5y ago

Yeah, China is taking advantage of US companies, state governments, to compete with USA. There are lots of company leaders and governors can benefit from secrete negotiations with China government. There is only one China, but there are tons of American businesses.

sneak 5y ago
In some regards (foot-pounds), Apple is way more of a Chinese company than an American one. Nearly all of the people who actually make Apple products are Chinese citizens subject to Chinese law, in China.

thenthenthen 5y ago

I read a lot about manufacturing, but I dont think the real growth market is in manufacturing. I dont read anything about it here in the thread but what about the growth market for data? Especially referring to apples icloud services in PRC and physical datacenter, in guiyang (just like microsoft, ibm btw)

moogly 5y ago

At what point does something like this become a national security issue? I know these modern titans of industry answer to no one, but perhaps they should?

makeitdouble 5y ago
I find it interesting you see Apple a national asset needing special scrutiny. It might as well be true, but then you should also expect other countries to start dealing with Apple as a part of the US gov. and not a purely private party.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  >you should also expect other countries to start dealing with Apple as a part of the US gov. and not a purely private party That is exactly what happened and that's why they approached Tim Cook.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dariusj18 5y ago
  Lockheed Martin is a private company with all sorts of laws on what they can and cannot do with foreign countries. It is not weird to create special categories for niche protected industries.
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    Would Lockheed Martin also be negociating tax breaks with Ireland and forefront line development costs of factories in Taiwan ? Or provide separated enclaves for EU countries ? Right now Apple is an international consumer company at its core, which makes its positioning a lot different than defense contractors or power producers for instance.
    - dariusj18 5y ago
      We used to regulate a lot more of consumer electronics ability to operate overseas, those restrictions have eased, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't come back if companies start to act irresponsibly. Also, yes, Lockheed Martin does operate in different countries (Ireland included) and most likely does negotiate quite heavily with factories around the world.

bell-cot 5y ago

So...local politicians, in a market where Apple was making money hand-over-fist, were feeling kinda used. By a huge foreign corporation. And the they started getting sticky on all sorts of regulatory things that Apple needed. Until Apple's CEO promised to do a bunch of "local investing" in their country. How different is this from the 1980's in the U.S., when Japanese auto makers decided that they needed to start building cars in America, and otherwise placating American politicians and voters with big piles of money?

sschueller 5y ago
Bribery is illegal, just ask FIFA and the FBI.
- dev_tty01 5y ago
  I didn't see any evidence of bribery. Please point that out. Companies make investments in countries all the time for concessions on reduced taxes, streamlined approvals, etc... When Apple wanted to enter India's markets in a bigger way, they agreed to build a factory there. What is the difference? This is just how big business is done all over the world. I'm not making a judgement about whether this is good or bad, I just don't get all of the outrage and surprise over a process that is far from unusual.
ohmanjjj 5y ago
Apple paid protection money. Pretty simple, no need to sugar coat it
- chrischen 5y ago
  That’s what all government is: a racket.
  - ethanbond 5y ago
    Life before nationstates was famously prosperous, safe, and enriching.

uniqueuid 5y ago

The really interesting question is of course: What conditions are there outside of China? Has Apple agreed to behave differently in the US, censoring apps or content or disadvantaging competitors?

ksec 5y ago

Since this is finally out, I am hopping they have all the other juicy details in supply chain, where Apple lifted suppliers to their standard and help them build out / counter balance competitors. ( Also interesting this is coming out from The Information, which tends to be an Apple shill for many years from Apple PR. But I am looking at BOE, YMTC and Luxshare. Should be the easiest find and leaks. If they do intend to go deep into it. )

georgeburdell 5y ago
You’re not the only one “hoping”. Apple is a shameful company

gonehome 5y ago

Apple’s approach to China remains the most disappointing (and hypocritical) thing about the company. When privacy really matters for the users that need it most, Apple sells them out for continued access to the Chinese market. https://stratechery.com/2021/the-information-on-apple-in-china-apples-deal-evaluating-apples-china-risk/ https://stratechery.com/2021/the-information-on-apple-in-chi...

ISL 5y ago
Is Stratechery's paywall new? I'm surprised to see one from an author who writes in a voice that aspires to reach the world.
- dcwca 5y ago
  Worth the subscription fee for sure
- gonehome 5y ago
  Ah I didn't realize this was a daily one (I subscribe) - he does a mixture of free and not free. I think the subscription is worth it though.
- divbzero 5y ago
  Having the financial means to develop and maintain his voice seems like a reasonable part of that aspiration. The author is fully supported by his work with Stratechery. [1] [1]: https://stratechery.com/about/ https://stratechery.com/about/
- mdekkers 5y ago
  I pay for Stratechery. It’s absolutely worth it. Top tier analysis.
pbhjpbhj 5y ago
I assumed it was firstly access to Chinese manufacturing. They can probably still make humongous profits without the Chinese market, but presumably their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China?

literallyaduck 5y ago

When Apple and HP collaborated, HP was forced to cram iTunes on its devices for years. China isn't known for respecting IP, not sure who is the "good guy" in this collaboration, almost like the Borg and Cylons joined forces.

inasio 5y ago

Disregarding the human rights/politics background, this sounds like standard operating procedure for Apple: Do whatever it takes to have unimpeded access to the best tools/tech needed for their mission

mhoad 5y ago
Except no, you shouldn’t just disregard the human rights / politics in search of “the best tools” which happens to be low waged workers who were famously killings themselves at work in such large numbers that their solution was to install nets so that they wouldn’t die when jumping out the windows anymore,
- inasio 5y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that you should disregard human rights, only that when you look at it from a strictly strategic point of view, it aligns with the strategy that Apple follows in many other areas. See for example buying full chip lines, entire display supply, even for the gigantic windows they use at the Apple stores.

pupppet 5y ago

This will be the logical conclusion to every major American corporation unless someone puts a stop to this. If profit comes before everything, then so will China's 1.4B potential market vs US's 330M market.

titzer 5y ago
It's growthism driving this. If you need to grow your revenue 20% year-over-year every year for decades, pretty soon you have to swallow ungodly amounts of new dollars. You can either gobble more of the market (higher market share), grow the market, or find new markets. And growthism will mine out every one of those possibilities.
lastofthemojito 5y ago
It seems to be Apple's standard MO to comply with local regulations regardless of market size. They've complied with Russian demands[0,1] and it looks like Apple Rus accounts for something like 2.6% of Apple's revenue, a fraction that Apple could probably do without. From a recent interview[2] with Tim Cook: >"World peace through world trade," Cook said, adding that operating in foreign countries means Apple has to "acknowledge that there are different laws in other markets." 0: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/apple-and-google-cave-to-putins-censors-block-navalny-app-as-election-begins/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/apple-and-google... 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50573069 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50573069 2: https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-china-tim-cook-responsibility-world-peace-world-trade-2021-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-china-tim-cook-respons...
- remarkEon 5y ago
  >World peace through world trade And here I was under the impression that most everyone - everyone important enough at least - understood that Fukuyama was (very) wrong. Perhaps his definition of "world peace" is different.
  - lastofthemojito 5y ago
    I'm not sure where Fukuyama and Friedman agree and disagree, but Cook's quote struck me as Friedman-esque. It sounds like he sees Apple as a player in Friedman's Dell Theory of Conflict Prevention: "No two countries that are both part of a major global supply chain, like Dell’s, will ever fight a war against each other as long as they are both part of the same global supply chain". (Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace)

drno123 5y ago

Interestingly, Apple could also cause problems to TSMC. Because of Apple-first policy, at least two major chip manufacturers* are moving away from TSMC. One is even completely obsoleting a line of products that was previously being manufactured at TSMC. At the same time, while Apple can get processors from TSMC, their iPhone production is lagging behind due to shortage of power supply ICs. * - not sure if this info is already public, I am NDA bound to disclose more.

mdasen 5y ago
We've seen articles about Qualcomm and AMD shifting to Samsung and away from TSMC. Some of Qualcomm's new processors are already moved over to Samsung. The 780G and 888 are already on Samsung's 5nm process. I don't think AMD has moved things, but we've seen articles about it noting how Apple is getting first-access to TSMC's latest processes. > One is even completely obsoleting a line of products that was previously being manufactured at TSMC That sounds a bit odd. AMD/Qualcomm products basically obsolete themselves very quickly. People generally aren't looking to buy a Snapdragon 855 from 2019. They'll either be buying the 888 or one of Qualcomm's cheaper lines (like the 700 or 600 series). It seems weird to prematurely obsolete something given that it's likely on a process that you already have enough TSMC capacity for. I mean, clearly I could be wrong. Maybe Samsung offered them something to do that and move things over faster.
stevehawk 5y ago
and if TSMC ends up doing nothing but supplying Apple.. then it likely means they'll end up being a wholly owned Apple subsidiary
- sangnoir 5y ago
  Why would Apple by the cow, when they can squeeze more concessions and profits from a captive "partner" who can't easily transition away?

einpoklum 5y ago

Well, I happen to know that Apple management signed many deals with the US, which is just as problematic of a world state as China, if not more so. That is to say - unless you have a planet-wide blind spot, this title evokes the same emotional response as, say, "JD.com signed RMB 275B deal with US corporations in 2016".

poutine 5y ago
There is no moral equivalency between the US and China. Stop this right away.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  What do you mean no moral equivalency? Are you suggesting one is obviously superior than the other? Judging the behaviors in the 21st century, I think China is morally superior to US? Based on the wars invoked by IS, and the poverty elimination done by China. Obviously China improved Chinese citizens living standard dramatically, while US are doing the opposite across the world.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Sadly, this discussion always goes the same way. You'll see accusations of concentration camps, then countered by the existence of actual forced labour camps (private prisons), then "countered" by being called a weebo. It's a fundamental mental difference between many Americans and the rest of the western world, the american exceptionalism.
    - rscoots 5y ago
      [flagged]
  - onepointsixC 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - 5y ago

dirtyid 5y ago

Apple was growing massively in PRC in mid 2010s, should not be surprising they got roped into more prosocial and pro-establishment (read CCP) obligations. If memory serve this was right after Apple started clean energy programs in 2015 and PRC regulators shutting down itunes books & movies. >Cook's negotiations led to the successful signing of the multibillion-dollar agreement, quashing a number of regulatory actions against the company with exemptions and enabling access to the Chinese market, in return for significant investments, business deals, and worker training in the country. Keyword is exemptions and access, aka what you expect from trillion dollar company lobbying governments.

fundad 5y ago
It's not surprising but it's a surprise. All the lobbying for the US Tariff exemptions were out in the open, if it was revealed as a surprise it would look like bribery.

jms703 5y ago

It’s the shareholders’ company and the shareholders got what they wanted, access to more revenue and profits.

ipv6ipv4 5y ago

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial dispute between China and Japan, appear large even when users zoomed out from them. Chinese regulators also threatened to withhold approval of the first Apple Watch, scheduled for release in 2015, if Apple didn’t comply with the unusual request, according to internal documents. Some members of the team back at Apple’s headquarters in Cupertino, Calif., initially balked at the demand. But the Maps app had become a priority for Apple, so eventually the company complied. The Diaoyu Islands, when viewed in Apple Maps in mainland China, continue to appear on a larger scale than surrounding territories." Apple has, and will, fold to government pressure faster than a lawn chair. 1. https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/12/08/the-information-apple-china https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/12/08/the-information...

qeternity 5y ago
I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.
- gonehome 5y ago
  I think these things have a corrupting influence on the principles of the company over time: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html It's better to figure out an exit (imo) than continue to capitulate on these kinds of things, particularly in a country that is hostile to foreign companies and IP (and particularly if one of your company values is the privacy of your users). --- >>Peter Thiel: Well I think, again those aren’t the only two possibilities, I don’t think they created very much, I think a lot of it was just handed over from the west so it wasn’t even stolen. You know, I criticized Google a few years ago for refusing to work on its AI technology on Project Maven with the U.S. military, but working with Chinese universities and Chinese researchers. And since everything in China is a civilian- military fusion, Google was effectively working with the Chinese military, not with the American military. And there was sort of this question, “Why Google was doing this?” And one of the things that I was sort of told by some of the insiders at Google was they figured they might as well give the technology out through the front door, because if they didn’t give it – it would get stolen anyway. >>Peter Thiel: I had a set of conversations with some of the Google people in the deep mind AI technology, “is your AI being used to run the concentration camps in Xinjiang?” and “Well, We don’t know and don’t ask any questions.” You have this almost magical thinking that by pretending that everything is fine, that’s how you engage and have a conversation. And you make the world better. And it’s some combination of wishful thinking. It’s useful idiots, you know, it’s CCP fifth columnist collaborators. So it’s some super position of all these things. But I think if you think of it ideologically or in terms of human rights or something like that, I’m tempted to say it’s just profoundly racist. It’s like saying that because they look different, they’re not white people, they don’t have the same rights. It’s something super wrong. But I don’t quite know how you unlock that. https://nixonseminar.com/2021/04/the-nixon-seminar-april-6-2021-transcript/ https://nixonseminar.com/2021/04/the-nixon-seminar-april-6-2...

wnevets 5y ago

Say what you want about Google and Microsoft but at-least they have taken some steps to back away from China's oppressive government.

gscott 5y ago
Microsoft just hopes it can keep selling operating systems and Google has no market in China because the Chinese hate information. So they back off on anything controversial hoping for a better day to step in and sell something if possible.

jollybean 5y ago

There's nothing at all wrong with this unless it involves transfer or IP, know-how and of course the bits about privacy invasion. Every country should be concerned that the money flying out to megacorps does not result in long term value for the country.

moneywoes 5y ago

Is it strange google has avoided China for so long?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

tiffanyh 5y ago

Everyone new this back in 2016. On May 16, 2016 - China blocked Apple iTunes, Movies, etc [0]. On the same date, Apple invested $1B in Didi (Chinese “Uber”) [1] and magically China unblock Apple. So what’s new in this story? [0] https://amp.scmp.com/tech/leaders-founders/article/1945616/apples-tim-cook-arrives-china-charm-offensive https://amp.scmp.com/tech/leaders-founders/article/1945616/a... [1] https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0Y404W https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0Y404W

newfonewhodis 5y ago
> So what’s new in this story? A lot more.
tatrajim 5y ago
But the Apple book store and movie store were never restored, and Apple was forced to move their iCloud servers onshore to Guizhou. What did Apple gain from this apparent extortion?
- seniorivn 5y ago
  they didn't lose anything else, like the whole market for example
pembrook 5y ago
The media has a constant need for boogiemen to keep you scared and clicking. In the 80s it was Russia, and in the 2020s it’s China. Of course it doesn’t make sense when looking at it rationally. Because it’s about emotion. I’m waiting for the 2040s after China’s population decline really gets going—-maybe India or Indonesia becomes the new boogie man. Fun!

vmception 5y ago

the comments, lol! > Maybe one day he should think about resettling to China… just saying. I mean yeah? Maybe? It's really not that hard to understand how to maintain high standing in multiple conflicting societies. Doing so in China is also not that difficult or bothersome, not any harder than maintaining good standing in a private platform like Youtube the analogy being that the arbitrary decisions follow unspoken rules but you can predict what those rules are and still have a great and endearing time. I get that we are raised not to respect that a government assumes that kind of role while tolerating private institutions that run our day to day lives operating the same way, but the assumption that day-to-day life is sooooo aggravating in China is just completely wrong.

another_story 5y ago
Day to day life in China is easy if you're in a Tier 1 city, able to speak/read Chinese, don't require stable access to non-China based internet services, don't mind the pollutuon and are not black or Indian. Even with some of these it's still OK, but it can be aggravating quickly. I feel like there is always someone in every apartment block constantly renovating and the drills on the walls never cease. Also, try transferring money put of the country. Spent more time in banks in China than all other places I've lived combined. And I speak Chinese, so most things are easier.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  What about the lifestyle of an average white collar job though? Don't they generally have a similar 50-60 hour week like other East Asian countries, South Korea and Japan, that would be considered quite excessive by western standards?
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago
  Tim Cook should be forced to live there for the rest of his life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China

LatteLazy 5y ago

A billion dollar company (and Apple is a trillion dollar company) is a political entity. It's decisions have political effects. You cannot run a company that size and NOT expect governments of all sizes and types to come knocking with "requests".

bogwog 5y ago
Companies that large have too much power and need to be heavily regulated.

tomohawk 5y ago

Quizlings

scottcodie 5y ago

Apple works with the US government too. Apple operates in China so it'd be prudent to work with the government for mutual benefit. I'm not sure I see why this is being framed as a bad thing.

sneak 5y ago
Anything "China" or "Russia" in the USA has negative connotations, even when it is the exact same shit the US government does domestically. China, Russia, and the USA all work much the same way.
- jjcon 5y ago
  As a German you of all people should understand the havok unchecked authoritarian regimes can have on people and the world. The USA may not be a perfect democracy/republic and it has certainly been through tough times as of late but it is foolish to resort to such false equivalence.
_-david-_ 5y ago
There are two reasons. 1. The American government is the government where Apple has its HQ and most of its employees and C level. 2. The American government is not as bad as the Chinese government.
fundad 5y ago
In the US it's legal for the president to solicit bribes so they don't have to hide the agreements. They can do it out in the open.

andy_ppp 5y ago

I personally do not trust China, should we not assume computer hardware made there has invisible backdoors? The security state for example believe 5G shouldn't be controlled by Chinese companies, I'm certainly not sure I really trust what I say on this MacBook Pro, is there a way to prove it's not compromised as everyone says it's definitely not but I can imagine the Chinese suddenly just switching off half the computers in the West in the case of a war one day (say the US defending Taiwan). If I was them looking to become top of the hill I'd be instructing people at Foxconn and wherever else to provide me with backdoors into most computers sold in the West.

zerohp 5y ago
Many computer designs can be made by untrusted assemblers as long as the silicon fab, fusing, and packaging are trusted. Most Intel machines are not designed for it.

sebow 5y ago

"Secretly" is well-put between quotation marks, because i kind of recall when those "conspiracy-nuts"(as called by the media, of course) were specifically saying this during that period. I love how ignorant people can be about this biggest corporation US has.The labour it profits off is not ethical, and a simple search for "safety nets" should be enough to convince one of that.Then again most people don't give a sh1t when they want their new "3D face-unlocked emoji" feature.

analogdreams 5y ago

As positive as the tech companies have been for me directly (salary, my own business) and indirectly (investments) more and more I see these stories and the co's behavior and think they all need to be smashed into a million little pieces. It's becoming harder and harder to justify them as a net positive for mankind.

quickthrower2 5y ago

Life imitates Jason Bourne movie.

brutal_chaos_ 5y ago

When businesses become so large, they no longer are a $countryOfOrigin company (A US company in the case of Apple). They become multinational entities that have no loyalty to a nation, just loyalty to pocket books.

bmitc 5y ago
That is an excellent point and one I have tried bringing up before. Allowing corporations and individuals to obtain such massive amounts of wealth is a national security threat.
- smt88 5y ago
  It is also a personal security threat and democracy threat. See also: http://expatalachians.com/biplanes-over-blair-calling-in-the-air-force-for-the-mine-wars http://expatalachians.com/biplanes-over-blair-calling-in-the...
  - bmitc 5y ago
    Yes, by national security I meant anything that country holds important (government, people, resources, etc.).
- dopa42365 5y ago
  Ah yes, THE nation. Very specific, especially in this context.
  - bmitc 5y ago
    You're unnecessarily reading into it too much. By nation, I meant whatever nation houses one of these corporations, particularly the country that houses the headquarters.
- brutal_chaos_ 5y ago
  As well as a disproportionate effect on the political systems, tax evasion, and so forth.

nutshell89 5y ago

I think that what many of the comments here miss is that "Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era" was not officially mentioned until a year later, and the Chinese Constitution was not amended until 2018. China in 2016 likely didn't appear like the threat to Western geopolitics that it does today.

elisbce 5y ago

I thought the HackerNews crowd could do better than "Google/Apple/X is offering something censored / is complying with local laws / local government requests in China/Russia/X so it must be bad and they must stop". Don't be so naive. 1. In order for US/international companies to survive in China/Russia/heavily censored countries or regions, they have to comply to local laws. Otherwise they are blocked or shutdown completely. 2. Despite having to comply, most of the times these large global companies have some power to fight back, negotiate and find middle grounds. 3. Having a presence is critical for the sake of the local people to seek information. Having Google censoring the search results would be 100x better than having Baidu willingly fake it. Having Apple fighting for all the information requests is 100x better than having local giants like Tencent and Huawei willingly building monitoring and censoring capabilities for all users. Without the presence, the people in these regions and countries have no choice. They don't have ways to access even censored information or knowing about the censorship at all. They will be fed with much more twisted information. Companies like Apple are doing their best negotiating and fighting back. Maybe they have to comply with 10% of demands, but the local alternative will do 100% in a blink of eye. And ironically they are the target of blame in both China and the US. It is not fair to them. Would you rather have someone fighting for the people, or would you want them to be like North Korea where nobody outside can get in?

cronix 5y ago
> they have to comply to local laws. Otherwise they are blocked or shutdown completely. I'm for the "we're for human rights above profits even if it means we don't do business at all in your totalitarian country" camp. > or would you want them to be like North Korea where nobody outside can get in? How many people are actually trying to or even want to get into NK? How many would like to leave?
- elisbce 5y ago
  Please read my comment above for the reasons why "we don't do business at all in your totalitarian country" actually doesn't achieve your ideal "human rights above profits" goal.
5y ago

golemiprague 5y ago

They sue NSO for selling a spying software while giving the Chinese government full access and back door to all of their users.

blahgeek 5y ago

I’m a Chinese. I’m glad that apple did this. While I want apple to keep its dignity as much as you do, I cannot change our government (we don’t get to vote, so we literally cannot). Given this situation, if apple don’t do these kind of things, worse case scenario, it get banned in china just like google and many others. As a user, apple products are still the most privacy protecting products I can buy and use in china. (For example, do you know that Chinese government forbids end to end encryption? But iMessage is an exception). Business aside, I think apple protected the human rights in china the best way it could.

option 5y ago
you absolutely can and should change your government. Otherwise your children or grandchildren will have to and it will be even harder for them.
- listless 5y ago
  That’s awful easy to armchair in from afar. On the ground that is a hell of an expectation.
  - option 5y ago
    yeah, tell me more. I was one of the students in Kiev, Ukraine during “Orange revolution” in 2004. Yeah, it is scary but not fighting for your future is scarier.
    - eunos 5y ago
      Fighting for having Gorbachev-like sellout as your future leader is much scarier.
    - masterof0 5y ago
      My friends did fight in Cuba for freedom during July's protests, now they are gone. Ukraine is wonderland compared to China, Venezuela, Cuba, etc... Gimme a break.
- 5y ago

aerosmile 5y ago

An absolute zero on the patriotic scale. And when I say patriotic, I don't mean the "we're the best in the world" type of patriotic meaning, but more like "tiktok is a sign of things to come, let's try to slow down the inevitable ass-kicking of our economy that's upon us." Having said all that, he never had a choice to begin with. When Google decided to stand up to China, they didn't bet the farm but "only" a lower double digit percentage of their revenue (my hat's off to Google for that). Apple cannot produce their hardware anywhere else in the world at the scale and quality level that they are currently getting from China. I am saying this as someone who has a good amount of insight into how the Chinese production capability compares to other parts of the world. His fiduciary responsibility was to do what's best for the company. If he stepped down, it would have taken no time to find the next guy who would have happily done what's best for the company (except less well). So really, it's entirely inevitable. If you buy into the last sentence, you might want to ask yourself what the long-term future of a capitalist society looks like when it's economically attacked by a very capable totalitarian regime that can think strategically rather than being beholden to the capital markets.

wly_cdgr 5y ago

....Wait, Apple doesn't actually give a shit about privacy or any other supposed principle it lies about to sell products? Color me shocked bro

fundad 5y ago
As long as you wanted the product and got it in exchange for money, anything the company says can be safely ignored.

andy_ppp 5y ago

Imagine doing business with a government willing to disappear anyone who talks even slightly against them - and trusting them to be honest in their dealings. Jack Ma has not been particularly vocal of late has he…

js2sj 5y ago

It's very fair from my point of view. Think about it, you're company want to do business making a lot of money in my territory. Why would I let you? unless you give me some benefit as well. And the request from the government is to improve the country's technological capabilities and economy. Which government doesn't want this? If you see the country as a group of person, then it seems very normal. You want some benefit from me, you also need to help me, right? What's wrong with that?

claaams 5y ago

Tim Cook came into my bar and did not tip very well either. Why are billionaires so fucking disappointing constantly?

justicezyx 5y ago
Give some facts about the stats please? Average? Average in billionaires? Etc etc. Did not tip very well, what does that even mean. For example, maybe he is just stopping by, haven't use much of the waiters time, and thought it's OK Or maybe he thinks the service was poor Or even you just misremembering the details...
lotsofpulp 5y ago
Why are some businesses or people butthurt about not receiving money they did not communicate was owed to them?
errcorrectcode 5y ago
Because they feel entitled to more and special treatment.

fnord77 5y ago

so how is this going to work out for apple? will the CCP start making bigger and bigger demands?

ripbubu 5y ago
Correct. Ding ding. Folks are trying to sound alarms. Steve built his company to dissent when Apple started to drift too far from those values it proudly puts on its front page, still. It’s fraud to have those up now, imo Let’s put down the kool-aid for a sec and agree that enough is enough. A coward dies a thousand deaths but a valiant man dies once. Justifying any entity participating in blatant genocide is cowardice.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

blondie9x 5y ago

This is what they call selling out.

boiler_up800 5y ago

Honestly the US Govt should be helping solve this with a trade deal. Instead they put the corporation in a position to have to pay this protection money.

clarge1120 5y ago
Underrated comment. This is the purpose of a national trade deal, so an American company has the weight of the US government for contract enforcement with foreign entities, regardless of size or influence, and so all American companies operate on a level playing field with regard to US law.

klebe 5y ago

the top comments talking about maps, it's absolutely insane 'The agreement included a pledge from Apple to help Chinese manufacturers develop "the most advanced manufacturing technologies," "support the training of high-quality Chinese talents," use more components from Chinese suppliers, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with research in Chinese universities, and directly invest in Chinese tech companies, as well as assistance with around a dozen Chinese government causes. If there were no objections from either side, the deal would be automatically be extended for an additional year until May 2022, according to the agreement.' 'Apple vowed to invest "many billions of dollars more" than its current expenditure in China, including on new retail stores, research and development facilities, and renewable energy projects. Other internal documents reportedly showed that Apple's pledge amounted to more than $275 billion in spending over a period of five years.' what do American citizens have to do to get this sort of treatment? Seems like a broken record at this point, but we truly have been sold at the absolute highest level. It's one thing to make these deals with a foreign hostile country - it's another to ask yourself: When's the last CEO I heard making these same promises to America? Or to any friendly country for that matter? As if the streets are paved with gold everywhere else? It aches my heart to be a young man in this country and see this be our so-called 'leaders'. I'm confident the tides have already turned against all this nonsense, though, and I look forward to rebuilding industries of the world with good-hearted men & women

systemvoltage 5y ago
What's despicable is that none of the mainstream media (WSJ, NYTimes, WaPo, Boston Globe, CNN, Fox, etc.) are covering this story. The American people atleast deserve to be informed. How is this not the biggest blow to Apple in terms of its relationship with China? For those who want to go to source: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chinese-authorities-apple-ceo-signed-275-billion-deal-with-them https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chine... Does anyone have subscription? Would love to read Archive.is copy. Thank you.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  surely they will by the end of the week, after vetting sources?

concerned_4u 5y ago

[flagged]

DeathArrow 5y ago

If they gave in so easily to a government and agreed to give something about which they care a lot such a huge amount of money, imagine what they do if they are asked to hand over something they don't care as much such as user data.

jarlab 5y ago

Tim Crook

ripbubu 5y ago

Steve would have told CCP to fuck off.

errcorrectcode 5y ago
Tim Cook is an uncool beancounter whose only interests are money and appearing virtuous.

fergie 5y ago

"The Information suggests that Apple is heavily reliant on Cook for international negotiations and speculates that it could face difficulties dealing with government affairs when Cook stands down as the company's CEO." I wonder- is this true, or is this article trying to do some indirect PR/reputation building for Cook?

rkagerer 5y ago

The agreement included a pledge from Apple to help Chinese manufacturers develop "the most advanced manufacturing technologies," "support the training of high-quality Chinese talents," use more components from Chinese suppliers, sign deals with Chinese software firms, collaborate with research in Chinese universities, and directly invest in Chinese tech companies, as well as assistance with around a dozen Chinese government causes. The secrecy around it doesn't bode well, but to be frank the list above seems pretty innocuous. If it were the other way around or any other county I doubt many would care. The recent trend of countries toward isolationism scares me. The type of economic integration described above is healthy for world peace and how you avoid wars. I think the US had a much stronger effect toward global stability when it did a better job exemplifying the best of democracy and worked to spread its culture through economic and other ties.

Rastonbury 5y ago

How did they come to 275B over 5 years? That's 55B per year which I don't think shows up in their books

sebastianconcpt 5y ago

With this Apple is a big step closer to handling the rope that the CCP will tell it to use to hang itself. After stealing enough technology, of course.

roody15 5y ago

Apple is not progressive. Apple does not care about user privacy outside of a marketing strategy in US. Apple is not eco friendly. Apple is a mega corporation that in many ways is ruthless and efficient. They make solid hardware and are excellent at marketing. Apple will do whatever is needed to keep the money flowing. It has no problem adjusting its “core” values to meet different government needs. My two cents

ineedasername 5y ago

The title implies $275B in revenue (well, to me it does) but the article says "$275 billion in spending" That may be different than revenue for Apple. Does the pay wall article clarify this? Note: I'm not defending Apple here. Assisting a regime like the PRC with technology that could be used to further violate human rights is something the US should be monitoring and cracked down on with significant force, whether it's $275B or $10k

vixen99 5y ago

Will the unofficial tribunal judgment issued on the 9th November 2021 have any effect on Apple? The account of the Tribunal findings as given by BBC World today are almost too much to stomach. I suppose I should add these are 'alleged' but people should judge for themselves. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/09/china/uyghur-tribunal-judgment-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/09/china/uyghur-tribunal-jud...

vixen99 5y ago

I wonder how Apple views this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952

vixen99 5y ago

I wonder how Apple will react to this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952

rlewkov 5y ago

If it's on HN or Twitter or FB then it NOT a secret