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Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

• magicloop 5y ago
  One major point I noticed everyone was not commenting on was the psychological side as seen through management's eyes. I've been both sides of the table, so to speak, and can understand the perverse motivations that sometimes come into it. Some people in management actually love being in management because of the hierarchy that comes with having subordinates in one area, and a manager desk that overlooks them. The same desire drives such managers to have all-department meetings which serve little purpose. From their perspective, it reinforces their superior status over the individual contributors. When such managers have remote staff they don't get the same validation. They desire people to come in to get their personal validation with everyone sitting around them. At this point there is some post-rationalisation. The various factual benefits of having people in the office are offered. But they are not the true motivators for this kind of manager. Obviously not all managers are such ego or status driven as this description. But it is not a caricature at all. I have regularly seen this perspective and attitude amongst managers. It is just easier to spot and understand when you are at C-level and have management or senior staff reporting to you. I believe this is the true explanation for why there has historically been reluctance to offer a remote-first culture in work environments. Of course, with COVID, public health issues have adjusted the power balance here. When COVID is not such a public health matter in a locality, the return to normal now means return but for 3 days. Why 3? I think it is enough days for management to still feel that they are the boss on enough days of the week. Down to 2 days, managers would not feel boss-like. Lastly I don't want to malign the true managers and leaders we have. Those that want to achieve great results, and circumstantially need to be a manager, just to realise the journey with team contributors are the best type of manager, in my view.
• boopmaster 5y ago
  Perfectly reasonable given the office space and campus perks to stuff all the time wasting meetings into the 3 days of lowered productivity meatspace time, and crunch real work out on Wed/Fri. I’m hoping my organization does the same hybrid setup. I’ve spent enough time and money on my home office setup that it gives a shiny new office building a run for its money.
• prepend 5y ago
  I’d rather just go in five days, although I definitely prefer completely remote forever. For me, it’s about context switching and having a work/non-work routine. Having to wake up at different times, do meals differently, schedule childcare differently through the week is actually harder than just doing the same thing all five days.
  • chadlavi 5y ago
    I think this is what they're banking on. They're _requiring_ 3 days but are hoping you'll realize it's easier to just give in and come to the office all 5 days.
• evo_9 5y ago
  Fuck that.
• seiferteric 5y ago
  They just completed the spaceship a few years ago, can't just let it go sitting unoccupied now...
  • balozi 5y ago
    Turn it into residential units.
  • jldugger 5y ago
    And up until April 2020, they were removing walls as fast as they could in that place to make room for more bodies. I don't think under utilization is a risk.
  • ct0 5y ago
    "Think different" just has a different ring to it now.
• thrower123 5y ago
  This might be the worst possible schedule. Mandatory Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays? Terrible. Neither fish nor fowl. Shit, or get off the pot. But deliberately constructing the schedule to make actually getting to work remote impractical is mendacious at best.
  • paulcole 5y ago
    Hear me out. Mandatory Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and Fridays seems worse, no?
    • toomuchtodo 5y ago
      The world has been remote for 15 months, that’s the new anchor. Lots of employers going fully remote who wouldn’t have before, raising the tide for everyone. No full remote, start looking for your next gig in one of the best job markets in decades. Likely you’ll get a pay bump as well, as the labor market is tight.
    • thrower123 5y ago
      No. Better to be explicit that you're putting people back under thumb, and not pull the bait and switch routine with them. Every wfh Wednesday that you end up having to commute to the office because something comes up will become a nagging grievance.
  • Pet_Ant 5y ago
    The deliberate choice of Thursday over Wednesday is quite a strong indicator that even part-time remote is not an option, so you can't even just commute into the city for work and live a ways away during the rest of the time.
    • d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
      Exactly. Subtle not subtle choosing a days to really make it hard to live anywhere reasonable
    • tolbish 5y ago
• ferdowsi 5y ago
  When I was around the Bay, I felt like part of the implicit social contract was trading a luxurious office environment for meager, overpriced housing. A long-term WFH arrangement was never sustainable. In my spacious but reasonable Midwestern house it's been amazing working from home (I'll keep drawing that Bay Area salary as long as possible!)
  • whateveracct 5y ago
    > I'll keep drawing that Bay Area salary as long as possible! Bay Area companies are really good stepping stones for anchoring your salary :D This was true for remote work even before the pandemic. ty San Francisco!
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• cat_plus_plus 5y ago
  Fine, but if any company makes me wear a mask for 8 hours, I am out of there. Work remotely or come to a normal office sure.
  • hauget 5y ago
    Masks should be optional UNLESS you're NOT vaccinated.
    • InvertedRhodium 5y ago
      Why?
      • ledauphin 5y ago
        Why not?
        • InvertedRhodium 5y ago
          Just seems like a somewhat arbitrary point to draw the line - I assumed there was some logical justification for it that I was missing.
          • Larrikin 5y ago
            Are you sure you aren't being facetious and pretending like you have not heard any mention of the numerous studies that show vaccinated people do not spread the virus in any significant percentage and how herd immunity works?
            • InvertedRhodium 5y ago
              No, I haven't seen any of those studies and I have very little personal motivation to do so as I live in NZ and the only place I care to travel to is Australia - so no need to pretend or be facetious at all. In fact, my first actual exposure to wearing a mask was less than 3 weeks ago when I traveled to Sydney. TBH, I don't know what the big fuss is about.
• stuaxo 5y ago
  They should switch to a 3 day week full stop, it's ideal - you are selling less than half your time.
• plusCubed 5y ago
  Interesting, similar to Google[1]... I wonder if 3 days in-person will be the new paradigm for big tech companies. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422518/google-hybrid-work-office-remote-work-sundar-pichai-memo-covid-19-pandemic https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422518/google-hybrid-wor...
  • rawtxapp 5y ago
    FWIW, Google afterwards opened up the possibility of full-remote work (saying they expect ~20% of the workforce to do that iirc), but individual PAs will need to come up with actual guidelines which are due in a couple of weeks.
    • d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
      Exactly. Google was similar to apple then walked it back to much more flexible , honesty way more appealing and forward thinking
    • dougmwne 5y ago
      A huge win for WFH advocates. They must have had one to many high value employees threaten to quit.
  • sushid 5y ago
    When office shutdowns started happening, everyone waited for the big tech companies to make the call and copied them, just like how everyone followed Google's leetcode and hire model for all SWEs in SV. I believe Google made the 3 days in office call starting Sept first and places started following suit.
  • ehsankia 5y ago
    The subtitle of your very url is: > While 20 percent of its 140,000 employees will be fully remote Also, further down > While Google says the majority of its employees will work from the office around three days a week, it also says it’ll make it easier for employees to switch between offices or to work fully remotely. Meanwhile, the subtitle of OPs is: > Employees can work remotely for up to two weeks a year And there's nothing about full time remote. So they seem quite different.
• blakesterz 5y ago
  I wonder as more companies start to push more people to get back into the office, more people will want to keep working from home, those companies that offer full remote work will be able to pay less and get better employees? I guess the question is, are you willing to work from home and get paid less than if you're forced to go back in an office? I took a pay cut 8 years ago to work from home, so my answer is YES and after working from home it's HELL YES this was totally worth it.
  • entire-name 5y ago
    Was your pay cut due to your location, or simply due to the fact that you were work-from-home?
    • blakesterz 5y ago
      I guess neither? I went from the public sector to a non-profit, so it just paid less.
• andrei_says_ 5y ago
  Why? Because of the already sunk cost into office space? Any other reasons? I know I can drive 40 min and stare at the same laptop and email/zoom with the same people. What’s in it for me? All I see is unnecessary agony, and a lot of it. I produce more from home. Why does an employer want me to suffer more, even if it will cost them? What’s in it for them?
  • DeliriumTrigger 5y ago
    There is a lot of stuff you can do better in person especially with the secrecy behind everything like in apples case. For Grunt work you are totally right.
  • campbel 5y ago
    So executives can lord over their kingdom. Why else?
    • sithlord 5y ago
      More like, so middle managers can lord of their kingdom. Executives will keep in their upper offices, or on their yachts
      • dv_dt 5y ago
        Essentially working remote at their choice on a frequent basis.
  • colinmorelli 5y ago
    I do think expecting every employee to sit in an office for 8 hours a day every day is almost certainly unnecessary. That said, I also think it's unfair and disingenuous to suggest that there's absolutely no value whatsoever to colocation. It's possible that we can replicate much of the physical interaction's value through fully remote work, but my experience is that we're not there yet. It really depends on the work you're doing. And even for a single employee, it can change from one month to the next. But highly collaborative work can benefit from spontaneous interactions, more ambiguous work can benefit from live whiteboarding sessions, and more generally, teams can develop greater cohesion and stronger relationships through shared experience. Not every person needs this, and certainly not all the time, but to suggest that it's unimaginable that anyone could ever derive greater value (or that a collective organization could ever derive greater value) from in-person work is disappointing. Remote work has its place. In-person work has its place. Neither is the solution 100% of the time.
• luffapi 5y ago
  There’s something hyper draconian about a billionaire CEO demanding everyone return to the office so he can see their faces. Apple execs have enriched themselves by capturing way more profit than regular employees (Apple engineering pay is average/low average). This is overstepping. Not only will any company that insists on a return to the office lose employees, they’re also loudly signaling their disdain and it’s going to have long term repercussions company and industry wide.
  • swiley 5y ago
    Hyper draconian is Apple's theme at this point.
  • applethroewai 5y ago
    Average out of FAANG, not industry average.
  • tyrust 5y ago
    I mean, they are being paid to do this.
    • Apocryphon 5y ago
      Perhaps then they should offer raises across the board.
      • freyr 5y ago
        Fine, fine. Everyone on the board gets a raise! Happy now?
  • dougmwne 5y ago
    There is absolutely nothing surprising about this. The king wants his subjects to assemble.
• pseudalopex 5y ago
  It doesn't sound like a request.
• Nbox9 5y ago
  I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often do/did paired programming, and over-the-shoulder code reviews. These are easier in person * Having a workforce socially close improves productivity because everyone wants to step up for each other. * Being seen by my fellow employees helps keep me from becoming distracted. * Working at the office helps prevent home life from being distracting during work hours. There are some personal benefits I enjoy from being in the office. * I save money by spending less on food, drinks, and electricity. * I enjoy the routine. * I had a stronger work/life separation. I rarely turned on my work laptop at home.
  • coldtea 5y ago
    >I save money by spending less on food, drinks, and electricity. Compared to commuting (car+gas) and time-to-commute opportunity costs (to use for personal house tasks, side projects, self health)? I seriously doubt it.
    • d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
      Agreed. The above reads like dated marketing from dinasour companies trying to convince people that office life is amazing. “Imagine the hallway conversations that could start the next…” it will make up for your 2 hour commute and 3000 one bedroom apartment!
    • jackbravo 5y ago
      I agree with most of the parent comments. Commuting costs can be reduced, I biked to work when possible, and it was not possible when my kids were at school, which will be the same once things settle down. So it was the same cost with or without remote work.
    • hwbehrens 5y ago
      I'm obviously an outlier, but I live an 8 minute (peaceful) bike ride from work. I hate commuting, so I optimized for that for this job, and working from home last year was absolutely a net negative for me. Distracting kids, poor work-life balance, more expensive (AC, food, water, etc). I think the lesson here is, some companies can be remote-first, some companies can be in-person, and different employees will prefer different environments based on what's going on in their lives and the choices they make. It should not be the case that one "tribe" should try to impose their preference on the other, which was the case pre-COVID (e.g. almost everyone was forced to be in-person), and I suspect fear of a return to that status quo is what is driving a lot of these discussions.
• ranma4703 5y ago
  Apple employees should quit. The market is red hot, I get more recruiter spam then ever, no way I'm putting up with in person work ever again
  • steve_adams_86 5y ago
    I wasn't sure if I had my phone/email purchased by recruiters or something. I get cold calls and emails every week now. I ask them where they got my info, but no one's clear.
  • karmasimida 5y ago
    I don't think there would be a lot of people quit over this decision. With rounds of survey, I think Apple execs must have factor that into their calculus already.
  • bradlys 5y ago
    Recruiter spam doesn’t mean they’ll pay like Apple does. I’ve had many offers in the last couple months and only one were offering something comparable to $400k/yr.
• softwaredoug 5y ago
  What’s interesting is that this is NOT a hybrid model, as Google has done[1]. As i understand this _everyone_ is in an office Mon, Tue, Thu. This is a better situation IMO then some people always being remote and others being in person. 1 - Google lets up to 20% of employees permanently work from home: https://www.npr.org/2021/05/06/994123311/google-adapts-to-long-term-telework-offers-employees-hybrid-work-week https://www.npr.org/2021/05/06/994123311/google-adapts-to-lo...
  • onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Wouldn't most people rather work 3 consecutive days? Then you have 5 consecutive days of not having to be in the office. Wouldn't that give people a ton more option to see family and friends and whatever else?
    • sparky_ 5y ago
      I suspect that's entirely the point. By not giving people 2 consecutive days, it requires you to still remain close to the campus and prevents you from doing anything interesting like travel for half the week.
    • bad_good_guy 5y ago
      I think your weeks have 1 day extra than my weeks
• k-mcgrady 5y ago
  "Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. They're not working to make a new 'family' or change the world or be around 'creative people'. It's generally the leadership teams at companies that think it's great to be in the office but that's because they've sacrificed a lot to get where they are and they care deeply about their job and the company. The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. I think companies not offering full remote work options will see a lot of employee turnover and will have to change their policy very quickly.
  • pochamago 5y ago
    There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time
    • coldtea 5y ago
      >There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day Of course. Especially those that hate their families (or themselves and can't spend time alone).
      • filleduchaos 5y ago
        Not everyone is painfully asocial - and I say this as a rather asocial person myself who's only ever held remote or remote-friendly roles. I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
        • pseudalopex 5y ago
          Preferring to spend time with friends and family is normal. It doesn't mean someone's coworkers are so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
• dm8 5y ago
  I maybe in the minority in this comments section but I genuinely enjoy working from office. I enjoy the social aspects. And commute never bothered me, albeit max commute for me was 45 mins (in the bay area). The only downside that I always felt was parking situation. Lot of my friends feel the same about office work. I believe going forward there will be companies (and employees) in 2 camps -- remote first and hybrid/full in-office. And both types of companies will thrive. There are some people who enjoy going to office. And there are some people who enjoy working from home. And these people self select themselves for their respective jobs. And that choice is a good thing
  • PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > I maybe in the minority in this comments section but I genuinely enjoy working from office. In my experience, plenty of people enjoy working from the office. Many of us enjoy a mix of in-office and WFH. The comments sections on these articles tend to receive a lot of projection from people who simply hate their jobs and view WFH as a partial antidote to that. That, and a lot of comments from people who have absurdly long commute times. In the past I've had good success with mixed WFH/in-office schedules and very flexible schedules to allow people to reduce their overall commute burden. For those who can't or won't relocate closer to the office, full remote companies are always an option. For everyone else, I suspect we'll see a trend toward returning to office for the sheer efficiency and communication improvements.
    • kiadimoondi 5y ago
      That's a pretty unfair characterization of people who prefer to work remotely. However, your last point about letting remote employees stay remote and letting people who prefer office-work to come into the office, I optimistically agree with. It works when everyone knows how to work with remote employees, and that the option is exactly that: an option. This last year and a half I hope has been helpful in getting everyone up to speed on that. It requires a cultural dedication, and assuming people have learned something from this remote experience, they'll carry that knowledge and flexibility with them going forward.
    • amyjess 5y ago
• actuator 5y ago
  I can see why Apple did this. Based on data from internal surveys I know from big tech companies, there has been a split between three cohorts; remote, some days in office and all days in office. The some/all days cohort in office is the one that is the majority in almost all big tech companies. So, tech companies have to retain their offices. If they are paying for those spaces, do they not allow the employees who work from home to come office at all? That can reduce cost for them, but a lot of remote employees wish to have the option of being in office on few days they chose as per their wish, that means you need to reserve space for them. There was recently an article which said one of the big tech companies saved $1 billion in office costs(this was despite paying for office space). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-28/google-is-saving-over-1-billion-a-year-by-working-from-home https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-28/google-is... Also, if the teams are hybrid (remote/office) with some members of team being remote and some in office. There is extra burden for the team to accomodate the remote members for things like impromptu discussions as a group. Personally, I like the option of being in office 2-3 days in a week most. Not having the burden of meals and having some bonding with folks in the company is something I like, it has been hard having that as a remote employee. I think Apple should allow this call to be taken by individual teams though.
  • d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
    What’s odd is the already distributed teams are effectively remote from different regions. So they need to drive into an office so they can jump on zoom?
    • actuator 5y ago
      I think for such teams it doesn't make much sense to force them into office. A new joiner in such a team should be allowed to indicate his preference for remote/office, which should be asked again in a year.
• d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
  I wonder how a VC would feel if a startup said “we have some ideas but our real innovation comes from people just randomly running into each other in the hallway. Will you invest?”
  • midev 5y ago
    > I wonder how a VC would feel if a startup said “we have some ideas but our real innovation comes from people just randomly running into each other in the hallway. Will you invest?” I'm sure they would not invest in you because you didn't understand the arguments of office vs remote work. They'd probably think you were kinda dumb if your entire knowledge of human interaction was reduced down to "randomly running into each other in the hallway".
    • luffapi 5y ago
      “Hallway conversations” were literally the first point the GP made and the person you’re responding to correctly refuted that. They’re an anti-pattern, and if your company is benefiting from them, then they’ve failed in process, vision and culture. A successful company would not rely on such a thing.
      • astrange 5y ago
        Hallway conversations are also what Pixar was designed around, and everyone seems to like them.
  • rajacombinator 5y ago
    Where do you think VCs get their ideas from?
    • aks_tldr 5y ago
      do you know ?
• throwawaysea 5y ago
  Not at all a brave or innovative move. These companies are already globally distributed. They have remote sites. And now they have a year of fully remote work under their belt where it has been proven that remote can work. Forcing people into concentrated residential and economic centers instead of giving them the freedom to work from anywhere seems not just backwards (foregoing a way to keep employees happy) but draconian. I wonder how much of this is out of a misplaced sense of control over employees and how much is just them trying to salvage the value of physical offices they are so heavily invested in.
  • swiley 5y ago
    Apple stopped being brave and innovative long ago.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• mempko 5y ago
  Makes me think of David Graeber's book Bullshit Jobs. In it he notes that people in power try to get as many underlings as possible whether it's useful for the company or not. I wonder if management has felt "out of control" and less "powerful" now that people are working from home.
• dmitrygr 5y ago
  Recruiters on LinkedIn already picked up on this and predictions of this. Last few weeks they've all been emphasizing "fully remote but SV pay-scales". I'd expect many resignations given this Mon+Wed+Thu selection that clearly says "we need your asses in our chairs, and damn the data that says otherwise"
• chovybizzass 5y ago
  Good for them. Because we all know nobody does anything at home. I prefer office where I get credit for not doing anything!
• anothernewdude 5y ago
  Their turnover is about to spike if it hasn't already. People have seen the future now, and I'm sure they don't want to go back to the noisy and collaboration-killing open office
  • schoolornot 5y ago
    Don't think so. It is very difficult to walk away from RSU grants and I'm sure Apple is a great place to work at. Most people I know have already told their managers how they plan to work moving forward irrespective of company announcements on return to office mandates.
• zmmmmm 5y ago
  I think it is wise they are specifying specific days. My org has been endeavoring to make a hybrid model work with the notion that if a partial workforces is only ever on site we have more space both to social distance and for other reasons. But there are proving to be some really distinct problems. Primarily that hybrid meetings actually suck a lot more than all-remote or all-in-person. The minute the critical mass shifts to in-person there are all kinds of random one-one interactions that the remote attendees can't be aware of. And on the other end, it becomes impossible to share space with others if you are constantly in video calls. My personal order of preference is now all-remote, then all-on-site, then hybrid a long way behind.
• jes 5y ago
  I think the title would be more accurately written as "Apple requires staff to return to office..." rather than "Apple asks staff to return to office...." The latter seems subtly disingenuous to me. Yes, they are asking, but it's not a request an average Apple employee is likely to be able to refuse. It may just be some weird quirk of mine, but I notice things like this.
  • pnt12 5y ago
    Corporate speak is always double speak and I think it's OK that the news report what is said, and then people discuss what it means.
• sam0x17 5y ago
  Curious to see how many quit over this. A lot in the tech industry (myself included) seem completely done with not working from home, especially when there is no excuse for working in-person. Tech offices for pure-software projects have also become morally indefensible from the perspective of resource consumption and climate change. That said it's true that Apple does do some R&D that requires an in-person presence, but the number of people doing that stuff is tiny, and the vast majority of it is done entirely in software anyway. Why is FANG trying to go back to the office? Because they all recently paid for multi-billion dollar headquarters. In the new remote economy these are useless plots of real estate, and they either haven't accepted this yet, or need to save face.
  • ripper1138 5y ago
    That’s a very cynical take. Morally indefensible? That’s an incredible hyperbole. People may quit sure but CEOs are responsible for getting value to share holders and many honestly do believe that in office or hybrid model works toward that goal. If it was only about office space they could write that off and be done with it.
    • hvasilev 5y ago
      What value are they getting to the share holders by making people work partially from the office?
    • cyberpsybin 5y ago
      Got keep eyes on the slaves. What else.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • sam0x17 5y ago
      It shouldn't be hyperbolic, but that's the world we live in. CEOs have even less of an excuse to not work from home.
    • sam0x17 5y ago
• heavyset_go 5y ago
  I suspect that many employers that are requiring their employees to return to the office for a few days a week are doing it to ease their transitions into a full return to the office. From what I've seen from friends and family, some employees were told that after the pandemic, they were only going to return to the office when it was necessary for them to be there, then it was one day mandatory at the office, and now it's 3 or 4 days. The outcome that I think most people will find themselves living with is employers going back to business as usual, and maybe some higher level employees will get to work from home a bit more often than they were able to before.
• karmasimida 5y ago
  Is this really that surprising? With the current infections rate in CA and even less in SC county, you have to be really bury your head in the sand to pretend this is not going to happen.
• MichaelMoser123 5y ago
  still more people will probably be working from home on a permanent basis; he says 'Most employees will be asked to return' not 'all employees...' Also google is saying that '20 percent are expected to work from home permanently' https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422518/google-hybrid-work-office-remote-work-sundar-pichai-memo-covid-19-pandemic https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422518/google-hybrid-wor... (trying to read between the lines) A different question is if those working from home will have a greater chance of being shoved out with the next review cycle, but that's another story.
• newbie2020 5y ago
  Good news! I hope other companies (including mine) open up soon. Two people living in a 1-bedroom apt whose living room is an office, dining area, gym, and living room is cramped.
• mensetmanusman 5y ago
  This is excellent, I’m glad there is some leadership here versus the Wall Street ‘we need to be back in the office six days a week’ mantra.
• hourislate 5y ago
  This doesn't surprise me, I assume Apple has a lot of contractors/H1B's. It would make sense they want them at the shiny new HQ they built to keep a closer eye on them. Be a shame if no one was using the campus after they spent all that money. Tim Cook is Apple, his whole life is defined by that Company, he expects it to be the only thing in his employees lives too. There are shareholders to satisfy that would demand no less from the employees....back to work slaves....
  • jmspring 5y ago
    It's a gross generalization on my part, but during the height of covid most of the bay area was dead. Only the union city/fremont/milpitas area seemed to have much real activity. And most of it was of asian/east asian descent. I'm wondering if companies were lording H1/visa status over people and requiring they be in person.
• frebord 5y ago
  I will never go back to an office
• faitswulff 5y ago
  Of all the tech giants, I understand Apple's insistence on returning to the office the most due to their secrecy, even from other departments. IIRC I've heard tales of people being blindfolded before being taken to skunkworks engineering projects.
• NoblePublius 5y ago
  We’ve been back in the office since September 2020 with masks. We are now a mask free workplace as of two days ago if you are vaccinated. Any delay to return to normalcy at this point is absurd.
  • freyr 5y ago
    One could argue that spending 2 hours a day in traffic or $1.75M+ for a modest house is more absurd.
    • NoblePublius 5y ago
      You obviously don’t have any children
• rajacombinator 5y ago
  “Get those **ing code monkeys back at their desks” - every tech CEO, basically.
• throwawayamz27 5y ago
  "Google announced that 20 percent of its workforce would be able to work from home permanently" Google gets a lot of PR cred for this but its not the case at all. They "estimated" that 20% of workers would be remote at their management chains discretion. Ie pretty much the same policy they've always had (you can be remote if you get permission, but you'll be the odd one out). 3 days in is just a trick, if you need to commute the majority of the week why not commute the other two days (vs moving somewhere further out with a better WFH setup).
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• jmspring 5y ago
  Outside of a handful of startups, I've been partially to fully remote my entire career (goes back awhile) much of that international. I don't need hallway conversations. I need to work with the tools that I have to build trust and relationships. I could give two shits if someone 2-3 levels above me wants to see my face now and then - so long as they know who I am, what impact I have had, and that's backed up by colleagues. The funny thing with Covid was many companies that were "in office required" and allowed remove because of covid - had employees (including management) gloating about how they wouldn't go back to X, etc. One such company happens to be based in the PNW. Once HR issued the memo - people back in a hybrid model - the bravado shut up really quickly. My current role requires I know people across regions, across time zones, and work along side them effectively for both parties. That is something I've done my whole career. My role was primarily remote before covid and that won't be changing. The travel, the interactions, bonding will return. Is an office needed for that? No. Structured face time is.
• sinoue 5y ago
  By not letting folks have two work from home days in a row or on Fri/Mon, Apple is pretty much saying that you can’t really work from your remote home. This is going to keep folks close to Cupertino instead of letting folks work from Sacramento, Tahoe, Beach and it means couch surfing close to the office for the other 3 days. Bummer as it means less time w/family & pets for a lot of folks that moved out of the Bay area.
• ChrisArchitect 5y ago
  Related 2021jun01: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-01/americans-are-done-with-5-days-a-week-in-the-office-here-s-what-that-means-for-the-economy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-01/americans... (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27376591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27376591) Quote that stuck with me: "my fear is the biggest cost in the long run is all the single young men come in five days a week, and college-educated women with a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old come in two days a week, and six to seven years down the road there’s a huge difference in promotion rates and you have a diversity crisis"
  • ChrisArchitect 5y ago
    and a followup thought I saw posted on twitter: "I like working from home when everybody is working from home" is not the same thing as "I like working from home when some people are working from home and some people are grabbing lunch with the boss", and I think a lot of us are about to figure that out.
    • dougmwne 5y ago
      This will be very true. WFH at a non-remote company means you are a pure resource. You need to be committed to the mercenary mindset that you are there to crank on deliverables so that the office drones can preen and posture. The upside is you get the skip the posturing and surf for lunch.
• Elora 5y ago
  Some here are being honest, so I'll be brutally honest: Covid has upset the master-slave relationship, and they're realizing they're giving up too much control. Yes, even the supposedly forward-thinking, progressive tech world. It's so much easier to ignore the BS of "company culture," "a new family" and other such nonsense when working remote. Plenty of people here have outright stated they work as a way to fund their lives and they couldn't care less about "the mission," "changing the world" and other similar lies. When WFH you only need to put on a show (and sometimes pants!) when on a video call, then you can relax and get your work done and shut out the BS.
  • someonehere 5y ago
    I agree. Those looking to force everyone back into the office want to prove their worth in front of everyone else. I hate the idea of how some companies try and position the company as your second family. “No I’m here to do what I do to find my life outside of here.”
    • dannyw 5y ago
      I know a number of execs at various tech companies and honestly this talk does not reflect my reality or experiences whatsoever. Execs generally optimize for impact and success, and while their paths may not always be correct, I don' really know a single one who primarily wants to prove their worth in front of everyone else.
      • disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        What they tell people and what they are actually optimising for may be two completely different things. Like, almost all of us are mostly unaware of why we do things, why would executives be any different?
  • ryanSrich 5y ago
    100%. A lot of the people here commenting that they like forced in person work don’t realize they’re indoctrinated.
• tsjq 5y ago
  Fuck extroverts
• aerosmile 5y ago
  It's very unfortunate that the WFH experiment didn't turn out to be a 100% winner. We had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do all office work from home for the rest of our lives, and it certainly feels like that most companies didn't love it. There are obviously some exceptions, but what matters is what 90% of them will do - and right now it looks like that they will be asking for on-site presence somewhere in the range of 3-5 days. There's a massive difference between 100% WFH and 20-40% WFH: you cannot live wherever you want. I am really bummed that we as a collective society didn't come out of this thinking that 100% is the way to go.
  • dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
    I think the cat is out of the bag with WFH, and it will evolve toward what works for workers and what management can tolerate. As usual a lot will depend on how indispensable you are. It's never that simple, as you had hoped.
  • qaq 5y ago
    "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity" that sounds too optimistic I wouldn't bet against a COVID variant emerging that requires us to do this all over again.
  • quadrifoliate 5y ago
    > It's very unfortunate that the WFH experiment didn't turn out to be a 100% winner. This "experiment" wasn't one unless you expect the pandemic to rage forever (in which case, going back into the office is very risky!). As other comments have said, a smart company will allow employees pandemic-like freedoms to work from their home or office as they desire, and let this experiment you mention actually work out.
  • pnt12 5y ago
    In many cases, this is a power imbalance - the one paying you your salary makes the choices, so your choice is accept or leave. Most people will accept it, so it's no problem to let a few rebellious apples out. But in software engineering, where there's a ton of job opportunities, the imbalance is smaller - many people can choose to leave and go work somewhere else. A company can't survive if all its employees leave, so they must make room for negotiations. Therefore I expect that some WFH opportunities will stay - some companies will be happy to poach talented leavers.
• dqpb 5y ago
  Are you an adult who wants autonomy over your own life? Too bad, I’m your boss.
• dcolkitt 5y ago
  What I find really disconcerting is that the senior leaders in the tech industry have been talking for years about increasing gender inclusivity. Yet very few major tech companies seem to be wholeheartedly embracing full remote, despite it being by far the most effective way to encourage more women to join the industry. Research shows that women are 50% more likely to prefer full remote than men[1]. For better or worse, much more of the burden of childcare falls on mothers in our society.[2] Women are also much more likely to sacrifice their own careers to relocate for a spouse's career.[3] Along similar lines, that tends to mean women prefer careers with geographic flexibility.[4] Tech companies have spent the past decade sprouting platitudes about creating a more welcoming workplace for women. Now they actually have a real opportunity to make a difference. Transitioning to a remote first model would massively improve gender inclusivity. Yet, despite widespread employee satisfaction with remote, senior management in most places seem to be pushing back as hard as possible. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-01/americans-are-done-with-5-days-a-week-in-the-office-here-s-what-that-means-for-the-economy?srnd=premium https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-01/americans... [2]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4131769/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4131769/ [3]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/11/28/why-couples-move-for-a-mans-job-but-not-a-womans/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/11/28/why-c... [4]https://science.sciencemag.org/content/205/4412/1225.abstract https://science.sciencemag.org/content/205/4412/1225.abstrac...
  • bpodgursky 5y ago
    "Gender inclusivity" at tech companies is really a completely different axis than "motherhood or fatherhood friendly". "Parent" is not a protected class (at least, not on Twitter), and it's really not the goal of any FAANG company to encourage their workers to have families. It requires much harder tradeoffs than being "gender diverse".
    • swiley 5y ago
      > it's really not the goal of any FAANG company to encourage their workers to have families. Something that for one reason or another is more popular among younger women than men. This excludes women whether they want to admit it or not.
• canada_dry 5y ago
  When one of the more progressive tech CEOs are pushing a 3 day return-to-the-office I suspect the remaining 90% (much less progressive) will go with 1 or none days work-from-home for the vast majority or workers. On-the-other-hand... many CFOs are probably eager to significantly reduce office floor space, so it should be interesting to see how this plays out.
• tayistay 5y ago
  WFH needs to be mandated whenever possible. We have an existential climate crisis caused in part by constantly driving cars to and from work. This is more important than office productivity, and oddly, nobody is talking about it.
• node-bayarea 5y ago
  Our company did a survey and 85% of people said they wanted to work=from-home. I think pandemic has shown and also forced people to learn to work from home. I honestly don't understand the need to go to office. I don't understand the benefit for the company at all.
• Aeolun 5y ago
  I think it’s interesting that it appears ‘coming back to the office’ and ‘get vaccinated’ are apparently two different requests. How does that work for unvaccinated employees coming back to the office? I certainly wouldn’t want to share a space with them.
• okareaman 5y ago
  I was once called into HR for smoking outdoors on a balcony that no one ever told me was no smoking. No signs. I found the ritual humiliating and belittling. Then they had an issue for going to group therapy at the end of the day because management decided to get pizza and make everyone work late. I hated corporate culture with a passion. It definitely screwed up my creativity and productivity. If you like going into the office go, but let people like me work at home please. I like to write code, not fit into your idea of a new family.
  • dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
    This rings true. The fact that people enjoy corporate offices and make friends there beggars belief. I always though that's where people with personality disorders ended up. Sociopathic (and usually incompetent) management, petty office politics of the lowest order and a focus on anything but the actual work meant that the only way I could tolerate it was a few months at a time, and as a contractor. Then they at least mostly left you out of it. I'm sure every place is different, and there are happy offices with cool people (I had no such luck), but unless you're cut out for this particular flavor of social pathology, it's living hell.
    • okareaman 5y ago
      The people who enjoy the camaraderie of the office, signing birthday cards, gossiping by the water cooler and talking about their 10K run for charity never struck me as the smartest people. It always struck me as a ridiculous waste of time.
      • dougmwne 5y ago
        The entire thing feels like such a charade to me. Cute birthday cards and asking about each other's weekends. All signaling and no real human empathy. The moment someone needs actual support they are kicked to the curb. Not our problem! The person who sat in the cube with my Partner for years committed suicide. Poof, it was like he never worked there. Have facilities clean out the desk. This is not your family.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• ryanSrich 5y ago
  Well that was fast. I’m not sure what I expected. SV companies and their investors have been actively working to suppress remote work for as long as I can remember. So this move makes sense in theory. I’ll be curious to see how much turnover this causes. I can’t name a single person I know that ever wants to go back to an office. I see many comments here waxing about the virtues of forced commute and force colocated work, but it seems more like a cope for personal issues. If you’re relying on your work for friends, social interaction, preventing yourself from distractions, etc. then it sounds like you have personal issues. Issues unrelated to remote work.
  • throwawybillion 5y ago
    I have good friends, but I don't have family. About six months into the pandemic I started having severe panic attacks. Since we've been back in the office part time, my mental health has improved dramatically. Point being that working with good people can be a healthy part of a social life, and saying the people who rely on that have personal issues seems... well, privileged. There is value in having a team working closely with each other, and enjoying that doesn't mean you're broken.
• perl4ever 5y ago
  I may go back to the office soon. Currently it is optional for anyone who wants to, but I know only one person who volunteered so far, so I've thought it would be lonely. What changed my mind? The cable company, which appeared to give me a really good deal on switching my cellular service to them, jacked up my internet rate by $15 and notified me they will increase it by $10 more soon. I only have cable internet because I needed the bandwidth for remotely attending meetings, so I feel like they are trying to extort me. An unlimited cellular plan with some other provider may be cheaper now.
  • xvector 5y ago
    I mean, I guess that makes sense if you don't like WFH. But it would take hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars per month extra for me to even consider voluntarily going back to the office. It's the same thing with free dinner at work - the $10-20 I'd save simply isn't worth the 2 extra hours I'd need to stay.
• tdeck 5y ago
  I never thought I'd handle WFH well. When job-hunting, I'd always ignore fully remote jobs. It sounded totally depressing and demotivating to sit at home and interact with my coworkers virtually. I also always valued the office perks. During the first few months, it felt like WFH stripped out all the non-work aspects of my job. At Google those perks were substantial, and it put the work itself in full focus. But you know what? I like it now. I'm able to put in more focused work between 9 and 6 because I can take real breaks. There's less BS intruding on my life. In the office, your breaks feel more limited to 1) walking to grab a snack in the kitchen, 2) scrolling through something at your desk, or 3) going all the way outside to take a walk. 2/3 of these make you look like a slacker when you do them too much, so I always ended up doing a lot of "pretending to work" breaks to refresh my mind. That said, nobody ever had a problem with my performance. Now I can pop out and walk around the block in 10 minutes, or wander into my back yard. I can do manual chores and intersperse them with knowledge work to give myself a break. I also don't have to commute for 2 hours each day. This means I have more time and willpower and actually get more done. I actually measure every minute of focused work, which is how I know.
  • hawthornio 5y ago
    how do you measure your minutes of focused work?
    • tdeck 5y ago
      I use a set of shell scripts that record when I start and stop work in a text file. The hard part is developing the habit. When I get up, switch to something non-work, or even start to daydream I stop it. Sometimes I still forget to start or stop it, so then I have to try to figure out when I started or stopped working from browser, command line, or undo history. Lately I have been using the pomodoro method on top of this, which is probably easier to get started with since it's fewer large blocks of time. The scripts are here FWIW, but they're written for an audience of one: https://github.com/tdeck/timing https://github.com/tdeck/timing There's also some stuff in there for various other schemes like daily goals, some notion of "debt" etc... that I used at various times to manage my motivation and pacing. I've found it works best to just plan a number of pomodoros for each task, map out my day in half hour slots, and decide when I will do them.
• cupcake-unicorn 5y ago
  Really looking forward to this blowing up in Apple's and other companies' faces...potentially some ADA lawsuits as well. The door has been opened and there's no going back and tech workers know their worth more so than minimum wage workers, and those companies are already whining and bitching about how people "don't want to work anymore because of unemployment" etc. Popcorn time :)
• Valkhyr 5y ago
  I don't work for Apple anymore (and only worked for the corporate side for a short period), but this does not surprise me. They've never been a company very accepting of remote work. My current company strongly encouraged WFH during the pandemic and happily is currently set to maintain it as an equivalent choice even after full vaccination. I would seriously consider switching companies otherwise - there are benefits to being in an office, but I can't think of any that outweigh 1h+ commute per day :-/
• SubuSS 5y ago
  I remember someone trying to justify college over self-educating (quality varying all the way from coursera to Wikipedia to YouTube to Facebook): you just don’t learn the same way anywhere else. Being with your peers, having your ideas cross examined in real-time and having direct and personal feedback is invaluable. I think the same applies to wfh. Yes it is fun, yes I like that I avoid commute, but I’ve also become a shell of what I used to be (remember I wasn’t the most social guy in the first place). I am looking forward to going back to office and enjoying the hum of work around me.
  • SnowProblem 5y ago
    Funny. I felt the exact same about college classes as wfh. 90% of the time, classes were unnecessary, and I could do the readings and exercises on my own to learn the material better. Everyone also said office hours were so great, but I always found them a waste. On the flip side, no professors know my name, and I can't remember them either. In contrast, my wife went to a popular liberal arts schools, has several professors she still keeps in touch with, used her classes to make connections, and generally had a totally different experience. I think people are just different.
    • dougmwne 5y ago
      Many classes seem to derive 0 benefit from being in person. The help you can get online for a subject like statistics is light years beyond the classroom. If you can self motivate, both individual education and remote work can be your superpowers.
• spoonjim 5y ago
  Does anyone think that something like the next Apple Watch can be invented by remote teams talking to each other over video chat?
• FpUser 5y ago
  Been working from home for the last 20 years. Make money either off my own products or design and develop products for clients. I prefer to think and create alone. I value before anything else ability to choose what work to do. I am fine having meetings every once in a while but rubbing shoulder all day long in the office is not for me. I have friends I do not work with and I prefer it this way. I also enjoy being not having some out of their mind HR telling me how to behave, being forced to "team building" events and whatever other crap they come up with. I do understand that some jobs are impossible without being in the office / factory / whatever. I am thankful that I was able to avoid those.
• swman 5y ago
  I’m personally looking forward to returning to the office. I think after this is over I’m going to find a smaller startup to work at or a smaller company. Working remote makes me feel like a robot and I miss being around other people and finding Our mission together.
• tayo42 5y ago
  There's a lot of speculation and talk about motivations. Isn't Apple primarily a hardware company? Maybe someone who works there can set me straight, but it seems logical for Apple to need at least some of its workers in an office. They cant be shipping prototype phones, laptops etc.. all over the world and then expect nothing to leak? Or even effectively develop it?
• afinlayson 5y ago
  It's funny how people who like remote worker expect everyone to commit to their lifestyle, like it's a religion. Some people will work better in the office others will work better at home. Not everyone is the same ... why haven't we figured this out yet
• xtat 5y ago
  Time to quit
• yosito 5y ago
  If companies find it works best for them to have people in the office, I understand that. But as someone who has been working fully remote since 2010, I would personally never commit to a job that didn't give me at least 3 months of working vacation per year (minimum) where I can work from wherever I want. I hope it becomes the norm for companies that aren't fully remote to explicitly offer working vacation between 3-11 months per year as a standard benefit. Most of the companies I've worked with are fully remote, but have an office available for those who want to work there, and do an all hands on-site once or twice a year for two to four weeks.
• elifmax 5y ago
  This is so disappointing, I would prefer if they just let employees have the choice to WFH and work in the office whenever they want.
• gpmcadam 5y ago
  "asks"
• siliconunit 5y ago
  or welcome to the UK/London trap... 650 usd / month for daily commute to work (45-60min train+tube) because you are not 20 and want to have more than a shoebox shared shit within the city limits or have family. Add to that ridiculous food prices and fully criminal housing market both rent or buy(keep dreaming)..WFH is a super solid relief...yes I miss hallway chat the most.. and quicker to help people but still no comparison to the commute shitshow. I told many times to upper management that operative offices do not need to be in central London.... maybe now something will shift. To be honest nothing needs to be even in the UK... place is becoming a larger Singapore, finance and corps, rest is services for slaves with no hope of building a normal life, 1 to 1-3 times is the healthy ratio between yearly wage and property, here is like 1:12-14 ... complete criminal (they will have to lie to tell you that can finish paying it) and classist (only rich fucks or upper middle class kids with mommy and daddy bank can ever buy anything) if you ask me.
  • smnscu 5y ago
    Another person living in the UK, I agree wholeheartedly; nice insights about Singapore and classism. I live in Manchester and take remote contracts with London clients from time to time. Getting paid London salaries outside of London is one way to live comfortably in this country. There are a few larger companies that truly believe in remote work, Utility Warehouse is one of them. I don't understand how people put up with London or the horrible commute.
  • hu3 5y ago
    I used to work at Millbank Tower when in London. Which is next UK's Intelligence HQ (MI5) and close to a ton of cool places like Buckingham Palace and London Eye. At first I was rejoiced for working near all these interesting places. But London quickly reminded me of the cost. $600/mo commute plus almost two hours a day on train/metro (which is even more expensive if you value your time). No thank you.
• papito 5y ago
  Commute is not that bad - in moderation. For me, commute is about getting out of the house, moving around, waking up, and getting in the zone. But it gets old after 30 minutes. My previous job was door to door for me in 20-25 minutes. I could hop on the Q train on the Upper East Side in NYC and be at Union Square that quickly. Did I do it? Almost never. I took a walk through Central Park before hopping on a train in Midtown, and I loved it.
  • timdaub 5y ago
    Agreed. I have a little office nearby. I drive my bike daily. It has become part of my shutdown procedure after work.
• c01n 5y ago
  How I envy farmers, fishermen, taxi drivers etc.
• habosa 5y ago
  Having to come in on Wednesdays and Fridays means you can't even divide up your week into two blocks. If it was Monday/Friday WFH then you'd be at home for 4 days (Fri-Mon) and then in for 3 days (Tue-Thur). That would open up some interesting options for work/life balance that aren't there when you have to switch work locations multiple times a week.
  • LatteLazy 5y ago
    Exactly. You could actually do something with that. This is a pre-step to a full return to the office....
• LatteLazy 5y ago
  Asked or told? Because it sounds like Told.
• sinstein 5y ago
  It appears that everyone mentions commute as a massive energy/time sink that erases many potential benefits of working in office. Every other claimed benefit of WFH is all very subjective and you will either enjoy it or not enjoy it. But so many of us actually stay very close to our work places. Commute is either 15 mins one way or sometimes even lesser.
• nabla9 5y ago
  Remote works kills many communication channels and opportunities. It can be a good thing but not as permanent state of affairs. 2-3 days in office is probably something where you can get good balance. If you have a team of people assigned to you, you need to care about them, not just organize the work. It's near impossible to see when someone's is getting stressed, until something breaks. It's extremely hard to integrate newcomers. People have trivial things that hold them back, but they don't know how to communicate those issues or may not even know about them. Just observing and interacting with them will clear them up quickly.
• nemo44x 5y ago
  Apple just built this amazing and expensive campus. There’s no way they aren’t going to use it.
• valprop1 5y ago
  Speaking with the point of general economy, it probably makes more sense to reopen office spaces as part of consumer business runs due to office goers. An example would be coffee/breakfast sales post work from home and in-office. This could help revive this part of economy which mostly runs in the background.
  • swiley 5y ago
    >We need to keep burning coal because it creates jobs.
• timdaub 5y ago
  Let's see how it goes for them. I'd bet it's going to be a disaster. That time I was asked to appear in the office of my employer after years of home office, that catapulted me into a burnout after just a few weeks. See, working from home allows you to be comfortable with yourself and your body. You organize yourself to do as much work as you deem useful to meet your goals. It allows you to take a ten minute nap or just to let yourself go for a few minutes. I had months filled with focused work. Something I'm only able to achieve in solitude. Going back to the office after having adjusted your work to excel from home, is a nightmare. Suddenly you're subjected to the office's furniture, its space, foreign people, the (shitty) food, noise, a commute. You don't have privacy. You'll have to use your will muscle to stay focused and to appear working. Working from an office is putting in effort to be present. WFH is not. I work freelance and my results are better in a space where I'm in control of. To me WFH is more economically sound.
  • perfectstorm 5y ago
    Lot of the people who work at Apple are drinking the Apple kool aid and will put up with any requirement.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• draw_down 5y ago
  This is the same discussion every time, the same points for and against get made. Aren’t you all tired of this yet?
• ulzeraj 5y ago
  I don't want to go back. I've joined the company during the height of the pandemic. Hat to relocate. Then I've rented a very nice apartment just the other side of the street from the company building. Then the company moved to a presumably cheaper building which is on the other side of the city. And you guess it... because COVID and remote work. I've talked to my relevant managers (the ones that actually mange stuff I do) and they don't care if I work from home. I hope non productive (HR etc) doesn't try to impose some "return to normal" bullshit. I've been stacking reputation through productivity like crazy to be able to resist it in case it happens. I brought my dog with me. Large dogs shouldn't be left alone for more than a few hours.
  • wccrawford 5y ago
    Pre-covid, I was in a similar situation. My wife and I chose our house because it was close to downtown, where both our offices were. Just prior to Covid, they decide the rent's too high there and say they're moving to an area that's supposedly central for everyone, but is a lot worse for me. (And for everyone, honestly. Traffic there was horrendous.) Then Covid came and they dropped the plans to move, and simply closed the office. They haven't yet decided what's happening post-Covid, but I'm worried they'll pick an awful area. I actually do somewhat prefer working from the office... I just don't want that nasty commute. (And for me, that's anything over 15 minutes or with any amount of uncertainty.)
  • biztos 5y ago
    > Large dogs shouldn't be left alone for more than a few hours. Why does the size of the dog matter for that? Serious question, I never had a dog.
    • rantwasp 5y ago
      the bigger the dog, the more destruction they can cause per unit of time.
• iratic0 5y ago
  If you work in a city/region with high property prices, it is likely you will be asked to go in to the office frequently. This primary reason is to maintain property prices.
• dangerface 5y ago
  I need to get a new job before all the apple refugees flood the market.
• tru3_power 5y ago
  I hope to continue wfh for the rest of my career.
• the_gipsy 5y ago
  I'm never going back to an office.
• anti-nazi 5y ago
  ah yes, that five year alt-right timeline to return to normalcy is gonna work out great big thumbs up
• ladyattis 5y ago
  I think a hybrid approach is good inasmuch as it gives HR less to complain about. WFH has so far proven to work and the whole theory that people must be visibly managed to keep working or just be productive and profitable has been proven false. It's time to let go of the dogmatic approach to how work is done (whether it's wholly WFH or on-site).
• game_the0ry 5y ago
  COVID forced the experiment of full time remote office work on corporations without managers having any influence over how long it would be implemented. So now we know the result of that experiment - just look at the S&P500 / Dow market caps. An over-simplification, I know, but hey, that's price of the stock is the CEO's score card. Corporate middle management and CEOs no longer have any excuse for maintaining the amount of office space that they do, so they're now resorting to empty, superficial reasoning. Case in point: > "Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." The CEO needs to be an extraverted person, the role requires that type of personality, especially for a high profile corporation like Apple. Therefore, CEO needs to twist his brain into mental gymnastics in order to justify the 10 year lease s/he signed just 2 years ago ( or in the case of Apple, the capital expense of Apple's big, round HQ building). "Synergy! Cross pollination of ideation! Innovation! Business jargon! MBA buzzwords!" - so says every American CEO. yawn Personally, I did enjoy office time pre COVID, but the commute nowadays (I have to take public transportation bc I live in NYC) is not something I look forward to. I also know I have been more productive. So we all have to suffer a little more so that the CEOs and middle managers feelings feel better, but at least remote work will be more common than ever before.
  • haswell 5y ago
    I've been a mostly remote employee (at a company that is mostly not remote) for about 7 years now, so the shift to 100% remote had minimal impact on me, but had immense impact on most of the teams I work with. I think there will be a bit of a pendulum swing as things open up and then a normalization somewhere in the middle. I'm an introvert, and a "Highly Sensitive Person" and I find remote work to be really helpful for me. But as a product manager, the shift to 100% remote, especially by folks who are not accustomed to it, wreaked havoc on some of the planning/design/brainstorming work we generally do in person between each release. I'm very happy that there's some return to normalcy. I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far, and I hope that companies focus on working onsite when it makes sense instead of just because. But I do think you're right about CEOs, manager types and some extroverts - some will look for any reason they can to go "back to normal".
• room505 5y ago
  I enjoy working at home just as much as the next person. I think many would agree that interaction in a school environment is important for people when learning. My point is that many forget that new employees, especially young people starting their career need interaction in order to learn and grow in their field. My employer is asking us to come in at least two days a week, which seems like a nice balance. In my field of architecture, nothing beats human interaction when designing and helping others in building and construction.
• foxyv 5y ago
  I used to do this. 2 days at office and 3 at home after mostly working in office. It really brought into stark contrast how very little I could get done when coming in to work. I would show up exhausted after a long commute and look for a desk. Then I had to setup and it was weird being in a different place every time. (They took my cubicle and put in Hot Desks.) The noise was distracting. (Open plan) It smelled like a Jack in the Box from the cafeteria and getting lunch took a lot of time. In person meetings ate up a lot of the time I would normally spend multi-tasking. I did like the socializing when I could get it. But the office magic seemed hardly there anymore. I didn't have a real place. A traveler just waiting to get home.
• pensatoio 5y ago
  There’s a lot of great points being made by others, but for me, it boils down to just one. Privacy. Offices have no privacy. If my brain is stalling out, there’s nowhere to go to take a 15-30 minute uninterrupted, shameless nap. Bowel movements are subject to crappy, public stalls with big cracks in the doors. It’s just not worth it. I get way more work done at home, and I’m far more comfortable.
  • canogat 5y ago
    Speaking of BMs, WFH has me spoiled in that I get to use the bidet I installed at home every time. Once you’re used to using a bidet, anything less feels like living in the dark ages.