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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

• LatteLazy 6y ago
  I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations...
  • traveler01 6y ago
    Thats what happens when you're a country with deep pockets apparently.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • delecti 6y ago
    There's sadly a pretty long history of the international community ignoring atrocities as long as they're contained within a country. The answer to "why won't we recognize <genocide>?" is usually "because the victims were from the same country as the perpetrators".
    • drocer88 6y ago
      Tibet, Mongolia and Turkestan, though occupied by past and current Chinese governments, are different countries than China.
      • delecti 6y ago
        If all of the military in a place belongs to one country, it's hard to argue that place isn't part of that country.
  • MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
    We let China get too big without modernizing/democratizing. Massive foreign policy failure by the western world. Now they appear too big to reign in and everyone (except maybe the US) is scared of them and just wants to play nice.
    • Dumblydorr 6y ago
      We "let" them get too big? They are an ancient society who have had millions of inhabitants for centuries. They were already big, huge in fact. In the wake of Mao, however, they have a one party communist system that exterminated it's intellectual and critical class decades ago. Hard to see what could've been done during the Cold War, we tried the domino theory which was a colossal failure in Korea and Vietnam and Laos.
      • MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
        We let them get too big economically. We let them into the western world trading economy under the hope that they would normalize into a western-like democracy with liberal ideals. That has obviously failed.
        • eunos 6y ago
          As an Asian, this is a reason that I start to become disillusioned with "the world community". Their missionary zeal has not diminished. It just transformed from religion into political ideology. There are alternatives outside of so called "western-like democracy with liberal ideals".
  • bjelkeman-again 6y ago
    It becomes really inconvenient when you have outsourced so much of your manufacturing there. Who is going to make your stuff then? (Maybe something we should have thought of before this, but then China took a turn towards more authoritarian under the current CCP chairman.)
    • incrudible 6y ago
      China is now itself outsourcing to cheaper countries, because Chinese labor has become expensive. Supply chains become flexible when the incentives are there. I think the Trump tariffs were on the right track, but for the wrong reasons.
      • insulanus 6y ago
        Yes, the Trump tariffs show that there are one or two things that China will respond to. It seems unlikely that the US or the EU will want to pay the cost in the short term.
  • Dumblydorr 6y ago
    There is genocide going on against Muslims, and the US would typically denounce religious genocide. The current president seems more concerned with watching Fox and pardoning his friends than handling Muslim rights issues.
    • selimthegrim 6y ago
      Pompeo has raised the issue, even if it’s not out of delicacy to Muslims
  • baybal2 6y ago
    > I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations... Why would world politicians take any actions against China when so many of them do have a finger in the honeypot themselves? Invalidate stock shares* of all companies who made untold billions on China, and you will see that a huge double digit of Western politicians will go broke overnight. The one sole reason the West was so eager to jump on the China train unlike any other broke harebrained communist country was because China went from the start to openly bribing Western elites. The reason why China is not Iraq now is that.
    • nlitened 6y ago
      What would “invalidating stocks” even mean?
      • baybal2 6y ago
        Here, invalidate stock shares
        • nlitened 6y ago
          Yeah, but what does it mean? To revoke ownership of the company from its owners? Who then gets to own the company and why? Or does it mean the company should cease to exist, and all employees should be fired immediately? We should deny honest people from getting their salaries?
          • baybal2 6y ago
            To declare their shares of having no more legal power than toilet paper.
            • nlitened 6y ago
              But owning shares mean owning a part of a company? Does that mean that when a company’s shares are invalidated, then the company is now worth zero, and anybody can buy it for a penny? Are the owners forced to sell everything for a penny, or they are allowed to choose, when to sell and at what price? Why would the price be different from current stock price?
  • naruvimama 6y ago
    China has reached it's Hiroshima moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_mEiMvPMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_mEiMvPMI
    • naruvimama 6y ago
      While the US earned its goodwill with the Marshall plan that lifted many nations from debris to wealth. China uses threats and censorship to get its way, post Covid or as Trump puts it China virus. No investigation or inspections have happened the whole year.
  • adrr 6y ago
    Against the largest consumer/retail market in world? Not going to happen at the country level and risk reciprocal economic restrictions. Only way to get china to change is have people vote with their wallets and refuse to buy Chinese made stuff but at the end of the day people just don't care and just want cheap stuff. If you gave someone a choice between $100 IPhone made by slave child labor and $1000 IPhone that was made humane conditions at fair wages, i am willing to bet more than 75% of people take the $100 IPhone.
    • lern_too_spel 6y ago
      The $1000 iPhone is made with slave labor. There are Korean and Taiwanese phones that are not made with slave labor.
    • alisonkisk 6y ago
      But we're actually buying $1000 slave iPhones with Apple shareholders getting the workers' wages.
    • powerapple 6y ago
      I will buy the phone made by slave child labour because the only reason they exist is because economy, if they make money, at least their next generation can live a better life. It is not likely that without a factory they will study and go to college like you would think. The alternative to a bad choice may be a worse choice, not a better choice.
      • powerapple 6y ago
        I have to state a fact that there is no child labour in China. Were their child labour before? Maybe some. My uncle left home when he was 14 to work in a factory. 40-50 years ago. Nowadays, the earliest age you can find real jobs is probably 16. So no, you don't find a child labour made iPhone. But if there is child labour somewhere, you either find a not-worst-case solution or you get him out of there. And you have to think from his point of view, understand his circumstances.
  • jeswin 6y ago
    The problem is that Europe has no appetite for any sort of confrontation. Their leadership in peace and climate initiatives mask how little they're willing to do to address issues which have a potential body-bag cost. They have poured hundreds of billions of dollars every year into a dictatorship with no accountability and its military. And shifting all that industrial capacity out of Europe certainly made it look greener, with all the smoke out of sight. If China becomes militarily stronger and Xi's domestic position weakens, war will be his first resort. If Taiwan had to be defended, there will be very little help coming from Europe.
    • LatteLazy 6y ago
      I've been pleased with how the EU has made progress with Iran. Maybe that plus brexit, Russia and refugees has been too much for them. We'll see I guess.
  • throw_m239339 6y ago
    > I'm amazed the world isn't taking more action on China. Its quite sad really, 20 years ago, any one of the headlines from this year would have prompted sanctions and denunciations... I don't think so. Nothing happened with Tibet, or after the Tiananmen Square event AFAIK. 20 years ago, the people that signed all the trade deals with countries such as China claimed it would lead to improving democracy and human rights there, obviously, it didn't, People's Republic of China has never been more autocratic. Ethical and moral concerns should have been addressed when China joined the WTO in 2001, irregardless China's political structure. China got a very good deal, western industrials as well, but at what human cost? I wasn't interested in economy at the time, but I still remember clearly debates on talkshows between human rights advocates and people pushing trade deals and their arguments, it was a time where you could still publicly talk about the situation in Tibet. Today? Nobody would even dare.
    • MarkSweep 6y ago
      You mean the “People’s Republic of China”, right? The “Republic of China” is more commonly known as “Taiwan”.
      • est 6y ago
        Taiwanese companies were mostly responsible for those forced labor supplly chains in E. and S.E. Asia.
    • LatteLazy 6y ago
      Tiananmen was at least met with lasting arms embargo, both from the EU and US... I think the expectation for many (myself included) was that as living standards rose, the Chinese people would demand democratic reform (rule of law, justice for all, some say in decisions and leadership). China (or rather the ccp) has successfully avoided that so far. Now its flexing that power and people like me, who expected natural change, are forced to re-evaluate. mea culpa
    • quasse 6y ago
      > the republic of China has never been more autocratic This is a more nuanced issue than it might seem in some ways though. I have some first hand experience since many of my coworkers are native Chinese living in different parts of China. Trade has enabled the growth of a previously non-existent middle class in China and they have started to assert political power in ways not immediately apparent to Westerners. One example is the "Beijing smog" that everyone knows about. The Chinese middle class are becoming unwilling to tolerate the total environmental devastation that was the norm two decades ago. They have put a lot of pressure on the CCP to keep the air cleaner and as a result many dirty industries like iron casting have had a huge number of restrictions put on them in the last 5 years. I would consider this a direct result of the political willpower of the Chinese people. In my experience though, the reason things like the treatment of the Uyghurs or Tibetans have not changed is simply because the average Chinese person does not care or wish to rock the boat. Before you finger wag about that, consider the American treatment of South American migrants that has come into the spotlight in the last 4 years. I would say that the reason it has not changed has the same root cause. The average American does not care, or silently approves and thus there is not enough pressure on the ruling party to produce change.
  • okprod 6y ago
    Are you also amazed the world didn't take action against the US under Trump?
    • LatteLazy 6y ago
      No. Trump has done basically nothing and hasn't managed to run a mini holocaust, crush democracy in one corner of his realm, launch a preventable global pandemic and engage another nuclear power in direct military conflict. For all his evil, he's not effective. Xi Jinping is what Trump dreamed of being...
    • redis_mlc 6y ago
      Trump is well-respected internationally, and will be remembered as having the best foreign policy since the Marshall Plan in 1948. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan A lot of what Trump and Pompeo had to overcome was the treaty abandonment that peaked under Obama. Asia is arming itself to the teeth because Obama allowed China (Xi was actually personally involved) to steal the Scarborough Shoal from the Philippines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarborough_Shoal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarborough_Shoal If you're referring to NATO members underpaying their contributions to their own defence, that's on them. Of course they're whining about an increase from 1.5% of GDP to 2.0 - 3.0%. It's sad that I have to explain this to HN readers on a monthly basis. You literally don't know what you're talking about on this forum.
• eznzt 6y ago
  Why should I believe what the "Tech Transparency Project" (funded by Open Society Foundations) says over what Apple and China say? Honest question.
  • xyst 6y ago
    because investigations performed by the companies or governments themselves tend to portray themselves as not culpable for any actions (often omitting pertinent details). Independent review is the only way to be honest.
    • bbarn 6y ago
      but - not being able to conduct its investigation doesn't automatically cause China to be in the wrong. More evidence is needed here. (Independent review being disallowed nationally is a bigger concern I will admit)
      • esarbe 6y ago
        In cases like there were actually investigating can land the people doing the investigating in prison, I think proceed according to the cautionary principle. So, if a tyrannical dictatorship like China is accused of abusing human rights and said tyrannical dictatorship is not willing to let people investigate the claims, we can accept the accusations as true until aforementioned tyrannical dictatorship is willing to let people investigate. No need for 'in dubio pro reo' in such cases.
        • esarbe 6y ago
          Thanks for the downvotes, it was a good conversation.
        • f6v 6y ago
          > tyrannical dictatorship I honestly think that's a bit too far.
          • 6y ago
• yellow_lead 6y ago
  Database of many missing or detained Uyghurs is available here: https://shahit.biz/eng/ https://shahit.biz/eng/ It's very upsetting to see companies such as Apple, H&M, etc using forced labor.
  • esarbe 6y ago
    Why the downvotes?
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • bitcharmer 6y ago
      I've seen this more and more lately. Sometimes I feel here like I'm on reddit.
      • esarbe 6y ago
        I'm used to having good and productive exchanges on HN. This development makes me sad.
      • gu5 6y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.hml https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.hml (last paragraph)
• 1cvmask 6y ago
  iPhone suppliers workers supposedly. Maybe we should also talk about the prison labor complex in the US as well then and the 13th Amendment: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/california-prison-factories-inmates-covid-19 https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-11/californ... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/22/us/california-wildfires-prisoners.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/22/us/california-wildfires-p... https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-california-continues-during-coronavirus/ https://www.freedomunited.org/news/forced-prison-labor-in-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/01/alameda-santa-rita-jail-aramark-unpaid-wages-lawsuit/ https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/01/alameda-sa... https://prospect.org/justice/how-kamala-harris-fought-to-keep-nonviolent-prisoners-locked-up/ https://prospect.org/justice/how-kamala-harris-fought-to-kee... And how blacks were/are targeted for prison labor following the abolishment of slavery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film)
  • HuwytNashi_008 6y ago
    Would you like to talk about FBI crime statistics as well?
  • wwwwwwwww 6y ago
    I guess the US voters have decided that they like forced prision labor in the US.
    • linuxftw 6y ago
      It's the only explanation for people buying diamonds and iPhones, so I'd say yes.
    • tcbawo 6y ago
      With choices of two major political parties, US voters have do not have granularity to approve or disapprove long term/chronic/fringe issues or issues that disproportionately affect a small minority of the population.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• daenz 6y ago
  "forced labor" It's slavery...modern day slavery. Why are we mincing words? We stand on our soap boxes and preach about historical injustices and how we need to repair them. Well here is your chance to prevent a future historical injustice, and all it takes is for you to take a stand, instead of quietly consuming the products and leaving it for future generations to atone for methods by which those products were produced.
  • kortilla 6y ago
    > Apple spokesman Josh Rosenstock said the company has confirmed that Lens Technology has not received any labor transfers of Uighur workers from Xinjiang. He said Apple earlier this year ensured that none of its other suppliers are using Uighur labor transferred from Xinjiang. >“Apple has zero tolerance for forced labor,” Rosenstock said. “Looking for the presence of forced labor is part of every supplier assessment we conduct, including surprise audits. These protections apply across the supply chain, regardless of a person’s job or location. Any violation of our policies has immediate consequences, including possible business termination. As always, our focus is on making sure everyone is treated with dignity and respect, and we will continue doing all we can to protect workers in our supply chain.”
    • Shivetya 6y ago
      Zero tolerance apparently does not extend beyond the facilities Apple needs to make its goods. As in, they seem to turn a blind eye towards the country's behavior they are in as long as they can keep their own hands clean. Simply put, Apple should be held accountable for simply doing manufacturing in a country which allows such abuse regardless if they or their suppliers actively use such labor. Apple isn't alone in this behavior but they are beyond most when it comes to virtue signalling.
    • daenz 6y ago
      Now post the next 3 paragraphs after those quotes. Apple is actively doing business in a location where slavery is frequently occurring, while pretending that their audits are thorough and comprehensive so that their hands appear clean. But the fact that they are playing whack-a-mole with constant slavery reports should be evidence enough that they know exactly what they're doing: they're trying to turn a profit while turning a blind eye to abuses, so long as they don't happen too publicly, and don't directly implicate them. This is wrong.
• person_of_color 6y ago
  What the fuck is Apple doing here. They could see an iPhone boycott if this blows up.
  • lmilcin 6y ago
    Isn't it obvious? It is cheaper.
  • simonh 6y ago
    Apple clearly does have a responsibility here, they acknowledge that themselves in their supplier policies. They have also taken steps previously to drop suppliers that have been found to use forced labour, so they're aware of the problem and willing to take action. So the question here is what is the evidence, what does it show, and if Apple's inspections have missed anything how can they improve their policies and enforcement actions to ensure it doesn't happen again.
  • esarbe 6y ago
    They can rely on the consumers to just shut their eyes and go "lalala". It's been working so far and as long Apple doesn't get 'old', none of the influencers will try to call Apple out. Capitalism working at its best; collect all the surplus and make somebody else pay for it.
  • bitcharmer 6y ago
    > They could see an iPhone boycott if this blows Do you really expect a typical Apple user to actually care?
    • rangoon626 6y ago
      Yes
      • bitcharmer 6y ago
        You might get heavily disappointed then.
  • 6y ago
• darkhorn 6y ago
  Can't Aplle produce them in India, Albania, Vietnam, Nepal, Kazakstan or another similar country where there is no consantration camp?
  • samfisher83 6y ago
    They (or their vendor) weren't paying employees in India.
  • seniorivn 6y ago
    it's not that simple, if it was that simple to build assembly plant operating corporations, everyone would do it, but it's hard business with very low margins. There are a few big companies capable of providing apple with enough manpower/production capabilities. And even though it's a low skill work, workers still has to be trained, and more importantly have to have high work discipline(which could be considered a part of a skill set) Most countries don't have that at least in large enough numbers for companies like apple(and its contractors) to use.
    • tjpnz 6y ago
      I'm sure it would get a lot simpler if enough people stopped buying their products.
    • jkestner 6y ago
      But when you wield Apple's power, you control those margins. They're also different because they've been able to make privacy and recycled materials marketing points in their industry worth paying for. Why not fair labor?
• HuwytNashi_008 6y ago
  I'm very envious of the Chinese for having a government that unapologetically puts the interests of their people over foreigners. Part of why this is so shocking to us Westerners is that it's such alien behaviour. We have become conditioned to expect foreigners are treated with extreme preference.
  • sudenmorsian 6y ago
    I suppose the Uyghurs in detention camps are not included in “their people” then?
    • dvivsivd 6y ago
      No, they’re not. Uyghurs, Tibetans and Inner Mongolians are living under the yoke of the historically brutal Han empire. Made more brutal by Maoism. Tibet isn’t China. Inner Mongolia isn’t China -stans aren’t China. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Macao are China. Free China. The China we should recognize and treat the CCP regime as a mere de facto ruler. Instead of smuggling weapons into Tibet and Chinese occupied stans (just like the CCP did in its near abroad and not so near) the West gave China the means to become the world’s eminent hegemon. Thanks Bill and Newt! The gifts of 90s political bankruptcy keeps giving.
    • HuwytNashi_008 6y ago
      Is anyone saying that they are? All coverage refers to them similarly to this article - they are a Muslim ethnoreligious minority. The parallels to Muslim minority integration in the West is probably why it is so interesting to Westerners. The disparate treatment by governments is what makes it so striking - in China they are second class citizens; in the West they are favoured over the indigenous population.
  • codefreakxff 6y ago
    This comment is so disconnected from reality but I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or just pure propaganda...
    • deleted 6y ago
• samfisher83 6y ago
  Apple will just claim its suppliers fault. That is why companies outsource everything. That way there is plausible deniability.
  • judge2020 6y ago
    It's the issue with using China manufacturing at all, although, even if Apple moved production to the US, chances are they'd still be facing forced labor allegations since they'd still need to get shipments from China for parts that can't be made in the US.
    • hobs 6y ago
      And then they'd actually have a foot to stand on in terms of defending their position.
      • judge2020 6y ago
        I don't think so. Even if you just get shipments for the rare earth materials that aren't present in first-world American countries, Apple would need to do the same supply chain audits all the way from shipment to mining, and they'd still be accused of using slave labor since apparently these audits don't work and using China at all introduces slave labor into your supply chain. For now it still makes sense to do last-leg manufacturing in China since moving to the US has no benefits from a PR standpoint (due to the reasons above) and has huge negatives with needing to import the raw materials instead of just shipping the final product from China -> Alaska -> Continental US customers.
        • sthnblllII 6y ago
          >no benefits from a PR standpoint Maybe not in your circles, but Americans are sick of everything being made in China and Apple could afford to do it here if there were public pressure for them to do so.
• MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
  I hate how American (and European) companies will virtue signal with commercials and campaigns (Apple and Nike come to mind) toting their ESG credentials but then will be doing stuff like this. People fall for it and it really pisses me off. Welcome to marketing. It’s also crazy to me that China isn’t facing more severe backlash for the treatment of the Uyghurs. It’s reprehensible and disgusting.
  • edoceo 6y ago
    ESG == Environmental, Social and Corp Governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_corporate_governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social_and_co...
  • Jommi 6y ago
    What other way would you suggest companies could link shareholder incentives and ethics? Hitting ESG metrics / recieving ESG credentials is a way for companies to benefit from doing the right thing.
    • MaxHoppersGhost 6y ago
      I am a proponent of ESG but (to me at least) it doesn’t appear there is a standardized method of calculation for metrics and things like forced labor (Nike, Apple) or pandering to a govt by censoring (NBA, Google) aren’t being captured. I could be off as I haven’t studied it that much. Everyone can agree what GAAP net income is but calculating ESG metrics is much more subjective.
    • findthewords 6y ago
      Ethical behaviour cannot be measured. Companies are still maximising shareholder value. They are doing it by gaming ESG metrics. Nothing has changed.
      • Jommi 6y ago
        I think it can be approximated. And that's better than nothing. Would you agree?
• christophilus 6y ago
  I’ve decided to leave the Apple ecosystem in 2021. But the problem is not isolated to Apple. In fact, I’d be surprised if other, cheaper products aren’t quite a bit worse. Is there an electronics company that does a better job? (That’s not a rhetorical question.)
  • delecti 6y ago
    Fairphone is your best bet with smartphones, but I'm not sure if there's similarly ethically produced hardware of other types.
    • simonh 6y ago
      Fairphone have dozens of suppliers in China, some of them indirect, and they say in their own literature they can't directly vouch for every company in their supply chain. They're in exactly the same boat as Apple. IMHO this is about China, not any one company.
      • fsflover 6y ago
        Lack of perfection does not mean you should give up everything.
        • simonh 6y ago
          Oh absolutely, they work very hard on this and deserver a lot of credit for it, but then so do Apple. They have some of the strictest policies and most thorough inspections in the industry and this still keeps happening to them.
          • boudin 6y ago
            I don't think it's comparable no. The effort put by Fairphone to build an ethical tech company is not comparable with what apple have been doing. There's a lot of information on their website and it's worth to have a look: https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact https://www.fairphone.com/en/impact
• duxup 6y ago
  I fault companies like Apple for doing business with companies who do these things. But I'm not sure if anything changes if local governments aren't interested in stopping it (or actually support it) either. Markets don't care about human rights... and if the local government supports this (in this case China, but other places too). I don't see how this ever changes.
  • onepointsixC 6y ago
    It changes by holding companies like Apple accountable. They are the largest company in the world for goodness sake. Their audits when so little as a picture of a manual gets leaked are incredibly thorough, yet when it comes to literal slavery they're unable to reign it in? If we were to hold executives liable for acting as slavers then it would be miraculous how quickly corporate leadership would suddenly be interested in the well being of their fellow man.
    • duxup 6y ago
      I think there's always some manufacturer willing to do this thing with any product, even with Apple and just continue on. We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue.
      • throwaway3699 6y ago
        We have to pull manufacturing out of China until something changes, then. Each and every one of us is indirectly contributing to slavery until then.
      • ardy42 6y ago
        > We talk about slavery, that ended with state actions. I'm not sure China cares, and accordingly the practice will continue. You're correct, but there's another angle to this than ending the practice: moral complicity. An individual in the antebellum south couldn't reasonably end the institution of slavery in the US, but he could have taken actions that affected the degree he was personally complicit. If he owned and profited from slavery, he was clearly complicit. If he did but had a change of heart and manumitted them, he's far less so. If he became an abolitionist and did his best to avoid supporting slaveholders or the products of slavery, he's hardly complicit at all. If Apple chooses to deal with companies that use forced labor (or chooses to look the other way), it's complicit, and that means it's customers are too (to a lesser degree).
• darksaints 6y ago
  Came to see how HN's Apple Cult would handwave this away...was not disappointed. The cult is so fucking pathetic.
• jiofih 6y ago
  Note for those skimming the clickbait headlines: this is an accusation found in a report. No evidence brought forward yet.
  • esarbe 6y ago
    Since we are talking about a tyrannical dictatorship, I'm willing to forgo "in dubio pro reo" in such cases. Investigators trying to dig up evidence usually end up in jail.
  • dang 6y ago
    This comment was posted before we merged the threads. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 did indeed have a clickbait headline.
• Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Does Apple care more about perceptions of privacy or perceptions of using slave labor?
  • criddell 6y ago
    When you are buying a phone or computer, which do you put first?
  • sthnblllII 6y ago
    If they just made their computers in the US like they used to they could have both, but that would mean giving up the lucrative arrangement of only paying Chinese wages but charging US prices.
    • wolverine876 6y ago
      They can't have both. Production in the US is less efficient (not only for labor reasons), which deprives the entire economy of the wasted resources.
      • sthnblllII 6y ago
        American workers have not benefitted from outsourcing. There are more important things than pure ruthless economic efficiency.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• esarbe 6y ago
  I'm so confused by all the downvotes for reasonable critique of either Apple or China, most of it silent without any justification given. Does anyone care to explain it to me?
  • oefrha 6y ago
    Flagged this comment due to flagrantly breaking site guidelines. Read the guidelines or email the contact address in the footer for details. Keep in mind that “reasonable” is subjective and no one owes you an explanation.
    • sthnblllII 6y ago
      Or you could just respond to his point.
  • simonh 6y ago
    I can only speculate, but I'll try. I haven't downvoted anyone in this thread BTW because I've been posting comments. When I post comments I prefer for them to stand as my input on the matter. Most of the comments I'm seeing down voted seem to me to be somewhat extreme invective lacking in significant useful or interesting content. The bottom line is HN is about high signal low noise. Most of the downvotes are probably just on that criterion. Another issue is that most of the people reading HN, including those vilifying Apple, probably own several dozen items manufactured in China. It seems somewhat unlikely that they can account for their supply chains in any meaningful way. There's also the mob rule aspect to all of this, it wouldn't be the first time 'evidence' had been found of Apple or their suppliers playing foul that turned out to be fake. Look up Mike Daisey some time. So lets all take some deep breaths and look at what's actually going on here.
    • esarbe 6y ago
      Thanks for the response. > Most of the comments I'm seeing down voted seem to me to be somewhat extreme invective lacking in significant useful or interesting content. Yeah, that's what's been confusing me. Some of the comments being downvoted I found to be quite precise critiques of the problems and honest attempts to provide information to an interesting discussion. > So lets all take some deep breaths and look at what's actually going on here. That sounds like the way to do it.
• yorwba 6y ago
  The crazy thing to me is Apple's defense that they have instructed their suppliers not to hire any Uighurs from Xinjiang, i.e. openly engaging in ethnic discrimination of job candidates. I guess they looked at the cost of improving the working conditions in their factories and decided that it was cheaper to simply not use any workers whose fate people might care about. I'm sure the government was happy to assist them in procuring some Han Chinese workers instead...
• lsiebert 6y ago
  For people discussing the difference between forced labor and slavery, this document from the UN's office of the high commisioner on human rights, tracing the history of such terms in international law, may be helpful. https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/slaveryen.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/slaveryen.pdf
  • colpabar 6y ago
    It's crazy the majority of this thread is arguing semantics.
    • derangedHorse 6y ago
      It is ridiculous that it's being argued, but grouping different kinds of human suffering together does seem like it could be a sensitive topic for those that very much see one kind of suffering worse than the other. 'daenz' made the mistake of attempting to group all acts of 'slavery' into equally heinous acts that should be prioritized on all fronts in an effort to rally sentiment towards the cause. While I agree that this issue should be brought to the forefront of the 1st world public, grouping/comparing these types of things always lead to a misdirection of discussion to semantics in my opinion and comments for stories like these should be focused on educating people more on the problem and brainstorming feasible ways the community can fight against it.
• datenarsch 6y ago
  ...but but others are doing it too, so you can't blame Apple for it!!!1
• Simulacra 6y ago
  I am sad to say this does not shock, or even surprise me. What is also failing to shock me is how much the world absolves Apple of their responsibility, and near-total government inaction against China. Has any major western nation penalized China for it's barbarism?
• nabla9 6y ago
  It's even worse. Apple actively lobbies against bills that try to prevent this. Apple lobbies against Uighur forced labour bill https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u...
• powerapple 6y ago
  1) Is there a shortage of labour in China? 2) Why do you setup a factory in areas far away from other factory and transport the components far away to Shenzhen assemble and export? 3) Were these workers paid? And were they paid fairly? I can understand the situation. The Chinese government is trying to improve the economy in Xinjiang and encouraged companies to setup factories there. Ruled by a communist government, these companies had to comply and provide jobs to those areas, which is far from port and industry, whose workers are less trained and educated. China is hoping that by improving the economy, people can forget about independence maybe? Evil? Kind of. Very practical plan though. Edit: Distance from Xinjiang to Shenzhen: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi,+Xinjiang,+China/Shenzhen,+Guangdong+Province,+China/@32.8595005,91.8301004,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x3806008cfd7b4dab:0xaa5952ebac7a708a!2m2!1d87.616848!2d43.825592!1m5!1m1!1s0x3403f408d0e15291:0xfdee550db79280c9!2m2!1d114.057865!2d22.543096!3e4 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi,+Xinjiang,+... 4k+ kms, 6+hr flight One of the reason south China is more developed to northern China is that the south has most factories, it is close to port.
  • TheKarateKid 6y ago
    Please re-write your comment in the same vein, except this time about Pre World War 2 Germany and Hitler, and let me know if you have the balls to hit the submit button.
    • powerapple 6y ago
      I am not in Germany and you are not Hitler, well, I hope. Why do I need to do that? Journalists can publish things without evidence to backup their claims, and I cannot describe what I think? No, I don't believe there are forced labour. I put it this way. In another BBC report regarding the cotton workers a few weeks ago, the source (newspaper scan copies) has shown that in the past, companies import workers from neighboring provinces, and this year, to help the local economy, they make sure jobs will be provided to locals instead. You can still see those on BBC websites. It is not translated into English of course. When I say independence, I probably mean extremism
• animal_spirits 6y ago
  I have yet to see any actual evidence of forced labor in China. Only claims, nothing more. Americans have been fed false propaganda against communist USSR for decades, and I have a gut feeling the same is happening against communist China. Maybe it has to do with China's plan to collapse the US petrodollar global monetary system [0] and the US is trying to rouse a new Red Scare and push us into a second Cold War. EDIT: Okay I've found 1 source of evidence from the comments in this thread [1]. I wish clickbait headlines would point to these claims instead of claims from other journalist making claims based on other journalists claims. [0] https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/ https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570485 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570485
  • beisner 6y ago
    While there probably is an element of that, hard evidence that might paint the Chinese government negatively in general is much more difficult to obtain because of information and communications controls.
    • animal_spirits 6y ago
      Agreed, I am just wary of journalist referencing other journalists as "evidence". But I have since found some very damning evidence here: https://shahit.biz/eng/ https://shahit.biz/eng/ This is very sad to read and understand. I hope this site gets more attention than these articles
      • dirtyid 6y ago
        Some level coerced labour is inevitable, the entire "vocational" training is part of broader labour/rural transfer programs across many provinces affecting millions of individuals every year, with associate recruitment pressures and quotas. The question has always been scale and severity and every piece of solid data (i.e. GIS analysis) is demonstrating the scale and severity is much smaller than previous claims by western analysis funded by parties subservient to foreign policy. Which is exactly why database like shahbits won't get any attention when they "only" catalogue 12,000 victims, it was 6,000 at the beginning of the year. Granted this is just a subset of total interned - the real number is greater than China will admit and less than western manufactured consent is trying to sell, but 10s of thousands is not a remotely actionable amount of victims for geopolitics. Hence fabricated narratives by interest funded NGOs of millions of victim to rationalize sanctions, cherry picked data points and uncorroborated atrocity propaganda. XJ is horrible, but not horrible enough.
• claydavisss 6y ago
  You aren't going to stop buying Apple products. Even if they were executing workers on the factory floor, you would still pre-order every iPhone, and sit smugly in a coffee shop reading Jacobin on your iPad.
• jkestner 6y ago
  As long as I have to buy products built on human rights violations, I wish someone could sell me the equivalent of carbon offset credits.
  • AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    You can do that. There are charities that literally buy slaves in order to free them. Be aware, though, that there are people who criticize such practices as 1) accepting and giving legitimacy to the concept of slavery, and 2) increasing the demand, which tempts others to find ways to increase the supply. Personally, I don't find the first argument convincing. The second I could see being a legitimate concern. https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/12/world/un-criticism-angers-charities-buying-sudan-slaves-release.html https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/12/world/un-criticism-angers... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/28/angeliquechrisafis.theobserver https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/28/angeliquechris...
    • jkestner 6y ago
      I can understand that. I was thinking more along the lines of helping people break out of the conditions that force them into terrible work environments, though of course the nature of that depends on the country. Could be anything from direct cash payments to funding education or groups working to change policy. I just want to be able to pay for all the externalities, but it's extremely hard to know where the issues are let alone the people equipped to address them, for each item.
• bdcravens 6y ago
  Not limited to Apple "In all, ASPI’s research has identified 82 foreign and Chinese companies potentially directly or indirectly benefiting from the use of Uyghur workers outside Xinjiang through abusive labour transfer programs as recently as 2019: Abercrombie & Fitch, Acer, Adidas, Alstom, Amazon, Apple, ASUS, BAIC Motor, Bestway, BMW, Bombardier, Bosch, BYD, Calvin Klein, Candy, Carter’s, Cerruti 1881, Changan Automobile, Cisco, CRRC, Dell, Electrolux, Fila, Founder Group, GAC Group (automobiles), Gap, Geely Auto, General Motors, Google, Goertek, H&M, Haier, Hart Schaffner Marx, Hisense, Hitachi, HP, HTC, Huawei, iFlyTek, Jack & Jones, Jaguar, Japan Display Inc., L.L.Bean, Lacoste, Land Rover, Lenovo, LG, Li-Ning, Mayor, Meizu, Mercedes-Benz, MG, Microsoft, Mitsubishi, Mitsumi, Nike, Nintendo, Nokia, Oculus, Oppo, Panasonic, Polo Ralph Lauren, Puma, SAIC Motor, Samsung, SGMW, Sharp, Siemens, Skechers, Sony, TDK, Tommy Hilfiger, Toshiba, Tsinghua Tongfang, Uniqlo, Victoria’s Secret, Vivo, Volkswagen, Xiaomi, Zara, Zegna, ZTE." https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
• akritrime 6y ago
  Recently, Apple's supplier, Wistron faced revolt after treating workers unfairly here in India. And India is not really the most shining example of protecting our workers from unfair and harsh working conditions. So, if such treatments don't fly here, I don't think they will fly anywhere else. The kind of labor expectation that these companies have after their stints in China is ethically incompatible with most other countries. So, I can't see the condition improving in the near future, companies will continue chasing profits at all cost and China will remain the most fertile ground to do that.
  • threeseed 6y ago
    Note that immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation refusing to award them any more work and requiring them to resolve the issues. Governments really need to do the heavy lifting though because apart from refusing to hand over money/work they are very limited in what they can do.
    • gthtjtkt 6y ago
      > immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation That's far too late and at that point they had no choice. They deserve no credit for doing it.
      • h0l0cube 6y ago
        They deserve credit for changing behavior, but their policy should be proactive not reactive. This ought to be embedded into their branding such that they profit from their stance on human rights while also making it a desirable marketing point for competitors. (And surely they can afford to)
    • onepointsixC 6y ago
      I respectfully disagree. The only heavy lifting that governments need is to hold Apple and their executives criminally responsible. Apple has shown ruthless effectiveness in tracking down leakers and prosecuting them. But making sure the workers who are making their parts and assembling their devices aren't slaves or being abused is a bridge too far for the richest company in the world? I don't believe it. It's Apple's responsibility, and if achieving such a goal in some backwater is too difficult then maybe it shouldn't have been doing business there in the first place.
• say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
  There's a Netflix documentary about the garlic industry where among other concerns journalists reveal that peeled garlic from China is the product of prison slave labor. Many of the prisoners work their hands raw and continue to cut garlic ends with their teeth. Prisoners have a daily quota with punishment for not meeting it. I haven't come across peeled garlic that wasn't from China or was unlabeled. So, I stopped buying it entirely.
  • henvic 6y ago
    Thanks for the insight. Do you have a great reference? https://www.ft.com/content/1416a056-833b-11e7-94e2-c5b903247afd https://www.ft.com/content/1416a056-833b-11e7-94e2-c5b903247... might be a reference.
    • say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
      Netflix show "Rotten", Season 1, Episode "Garlic Breath". It's been a hotly contested episode. I haven't seen any debate about the peeled garlic, though.
• medicineman 6y ago
  All the hand-wringing and pedantry in this thread, just to defend China and Apple.
  • nudpiedo 6y ago
    How did you decide that? HN has always been pedantry, many actual questions are valid even if they discuss semantics or validity of the sources. It is the way HN always has been
• barnacled 6y ago
  And yet Tim Cook has the cheek to get 'woke'. Apple could easily afford to build everything in a country that isn't an awful dictatorship running concentration camps and still earn obscene profits. And yet they still somehow maintain this aura of being the 'good guys'...
  • mgh2 6y ago
    Apple's magic (i.e. brainwashing) clearly seems to work!
  • Talyen42 6y ago
    Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies. Do you really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering? Not likely. No company on earth has ever been able to make a smartphone entirely themselves, and no company ever will, although i'd like to be proven wrong.
    • izacus 6y ago
      > Apple's supply chain is more than 1,000 companies. Do you really think Apple has the expertise and personnel to replicate what 1,000 companies have spent decades mastering? Not likely. As one of the richest corporations on the planet which always smugly tells everyone how nice they are and how much they respect people? Yes, fuck yes. They're not a mom and pop shop. They're a corporation that finds millions to lobby governments against making your electronics repairable. They can redirect those to paying the manufacturing workers directly.
      • danudey 6y ago
        One of the reasons Jobs cited as being an important factor for locating in China is the availability of skilled labor. It would have taken them years to hire enough industrial engineers to handle the scope and scale and volume that the iPhone required in the US, if they could even manage it at all, but only weeks to do so in China. The supply chain is also important. One person who worked in Shenzhen commented that, as a manufacturer, if you suddenly discover you need a certain kind or size or shape or length of screw, you can have a shipment at your door the same day, because the factory that produces a thousand different kinds of screws is just down the road. To move to the US, they'd either have to replicate most of that manufacturing in the US, which would take decades and be extremely expensive, or deal with a week of latency every time they need a new or different part as they get it shipped from China anyway, making most of this process moot. Yes, Apple should do something about this issue, and yes it's horrible to imagine them profiting off this with their "nice guy" image, but keep in mind that if they did this and increased the cost of the iPhone, other companies wouldn't, and it would put Apple at a huge disadvantage. One thing we've seen over the last century of western civilization is that cheaper wins over better. Cheaper toasters that don't last, cheaper fridges that break down after their three-year warranty is up, cheaper laptops that come infected with bloatware and adware. If Apple refused to manufacture in China because of forced labour issues, then they'd lose out on sales to companies who kept benefitting from it, because consumers, as a whole, just don't give a shit. I mean, if anyone cared about what it takes to provide them with cheap products, they'd be enraged that Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the world even though the workers that run his company are subsisting on food stamps and burnout quotas. That said, Apple is working on moving production to India, and I'd wager that the more they can do that and expand their operations there, the less and less they'll deal with China for manufacturing, but right now no one who manufactures electronics in large volumes can do so without involving China. In the meantime, they can work on cutting this supplier out of their supply chain; the article is talking about only one of their suppliers, though a long-term supplier, and not actually people working for Apple or manufacturing iPhones directly, so hopefully they can draw a line in the sand and force Lens to either stop using forced labour or lose the contracts. Fingers crossed.
• paulcarroty 6y ago
  Related: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/nov/20/apple-lobbying-against-bill-aimed-at-stopping-forc/ https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/nov/20/apple-lobbying... Guess a public boycott of iPhone/Apple is easy move to fight this mess. I don't wanna think about labors when touching my phone every time.
• ilaksh 6y ago
  That human rights situation in China is horrible. But I am worries things like that could actually be used to justify WWIII. Which would be even more horrible.
• offtop5 6y ago
  To be fair. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/01/california-incarcerated-firefighters-prison https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/01/california-i...
• whiddershins 6y ago
  I flagged this article and I really would urge everyone to actually read it before commenting. I am very very concerned about China’s disregard for human rights, and I believe continuing to do business with CCP controlled companies is immoral. That said, this is unsubstantiated accusations against Apple, which Apple directly contradicts. I believe Apple has a lot of leverage and resources and probably doesn’t want to do business with anyone who will make them look bad. I feel very skeptical of this article.
  • j2bax 6y ago
    I feel like many of the posts here are just emotions based on the title alone. Have we devolved into Facebook meme rage territory on HN as well?
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  • not_knuth 6y ago
    I second this. The Washington Post usually has quality content, but this one is disappointing. If you look at the author's history of articles, it's one post bashing Apple after the other (looks like there is an audience for it). I really don't like Apple, but I like misrepresented facts a lot less.
  • mzs 6y ago
    FWIW paragraphs 4-6 are those denials and Xinhua has just deleted the article with the photos of people (one with a non-Han name) traveling to to Lens: http://www.xj.xinhuanet.com/2020-02/24/c_1125615994.htm http://www.xj.xinhuanet.com/2020-02/24/c_1125615994.htm
• okprod 6y ago
  It's ok though, the new iphone 13 has 3.65 times more drop resistance, is 0.053% thinner, with a girardean microprocessor for your phone to do qubit image processing on the fly.
• nobodyandproud 6y ago
  I’ve minimized my consumption of meat over the years, because the way we treat animals in the factory farms is too cruel. It’s not perfect, because I eat dairy and eggs which introduce their own set of cruelty. Likewise, I’m severely disappointed by Apple. I’ve switched from Android to iPhone because I like Apple’s stance on privacy. I’m extremely bothered that Apple with its resource is not lobbying to change the playing field and make it expensive to use slave labor. I get that they cannot do it today, but what excuse is there to not play the long game?
  • cutemonster 6y ago
    Maybe you'd be interested in a Fairphone Another vegetarian here btw; I also didn't go all the way to becoming a vegan
    • nobodyandproud 6y ago
      When Arstechnica reviewed it last year, it was only available in Europe. I’ll keep a lookout. Edit: It’s manufactured in China, so there’s still a risk and it’s still supporting an authoritarian government.
      • prox 6y ago
        https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tutorial-raspberry-pi-smartphone https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tutorial-raspberry-pi-smartp... Build your own smartphone!
      • randmeerkat 6y ago
        Or buy the Librem 5 USA model, made in the USA. https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/
        • colejohnson66 6y ago
          I think the over double price tag (compared to the other model) should show how much the US has benefited from globalization (at other’s expense). Most consumers prefer cheaper things. What Purism is doing is very noble, but it’s not going to move any mountains. We need governmental regulation for that.
• zupreme 6y ago
  "Forced Labor" is an active form of "Slavery". "Detention" is a passive form of "Slavery". So the choice at hand is Slavery vs, Slavery. A note to the pedantic among us: I did not say "Chattel Slavery", "Modern Slavery", or any other modifiers. The Cambridge English dictionary defines slavery as "The activity of legally owning other people who are forced to work for or obey you" and "The condition of being legally owned by someone else and forced to work for or obey them". I think we can safely say that this case applies, specifically because, in that country, this system of activity is "Legal".
  • est 6y ago
    Well you can always fallback to certificated Vietnam slavery instead.
  • ggggtez 6y ago
    This argument is at best equivocating. Being in prison is not the same thing as being a slave, and by suggesting that they are the same thing, you do more harm than good. The existence of prisons are not going away, but we can do away with profiteering off of prison labor easily.
• Animats 6y ago
  "Designed in California. Made by slaves in China."
• appleflaxen 6y ago
  how anybody can purchase products that are created under these circumstances is beyond my comprehension. this isn't theoretical. this isn't abstract. it's real life. people are being enslaved for these products to be made. if you are against slavery and purchase an apple product, you are a hypocrite.
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• beaunative 6y ago
  Forced labor is quite prevalent as state-sactioned punishment, and it is much better than other kinds of punishment that exist. I don't have problem with that, that's one way how legal system pays for itself rather than siphoning fund from tax-payers' money. The difficult part for me was how opaque the process is, how the Chinese government just put people in those "camps" without due process. It is worrisome and frankly quite terrifying.
  • corty 6y ago
    "Due process" did probably happen, at least the Chinese version of it. Even dictatorial regimes usually have to maintain some appearance of legitimacy for the things they do. That legitimacy might not be apparent or even visible for outsiders, because it is targeted to keep a sufficient majority of citizens at bay. And before you say "but 'due process' is well-defined anywhere", I've got a star chamber in Guantanamo to sell ;)
    • beaunative 6y ago
      Well, if this due process means some opaque process that government employs to put people in those "camps" then by literal meaning there is a process, and it's done through that process. Yet I'd say that's very different from due process that we'd like to call it. In the very least the process itself should be well-documented and published, even if specific cases files are not available online for everyone. That's the very reason why the government called it re-education camps, because the government, even in Chinese context, should only act in the framework that laws defined, and in this case, they are not. I suspect that the Chinese government and the local Xinjiiang government expected criticism, and they are well-aware the policy is not ideal or just, and that's why they wouldn'put it into laws, because they are well-aware it would be impossible to pass. Since they can't identify who's terrorist, they round up every likely target, and put them under surveiliance just for caution. It should be said it was effective in achiving their goal, and they are aware of the collateral damage, but it's the cost they think they can afford.
      • corty 6y ago
• pfortuny 6y ago
  Anywhere you read the expression “zero-tolerance” you know something is happening.
• f6v 6y ago
  It's cute that so many HN readers consider this accusation to be true. However I'd like to remind you that China and USA are engaged in a modern edition of Cold War. I'd argue it's naïve to think that such reports can't possibly be part of this war.
  • tracyhenry 6y ago
    ^^ I read both US and Chinese media. It's mind boggling how BOTH sides try to draw a bad picture of the other side, usually with baseless accusations. The media has definitely become a political weapon. Sad that many people don't realize this. I took all these kind of articles, from both sides, with a grain of salt.
  • TheKarateKid 6y ago
    It is wreckless to compare the Chinese media -- which is controlled and censored by the CCP -- to the US media which the government has little/no control or punishment over what they publish. At worst, Western media has bias from those in the media, not the government itself.
    • bllguo 6y ago
      Westerners bring up this lack of overt government control as some kind of end-all, be-all argument. Realistically it doesn't matter, practically speaking. The bias is there regardless. Didn't stop people reporting about WMDs in Iraq, isn't stopping the flurry of misinformation about China currently, etc. The comparison is completely fair
    • f6v 6y ago
      The government may not have a direct control, but it’s naive to think they’re not used as propaganda machines.
• tw25570247 6y ago
  Coordination of the desires of suppliers and consumers emerges from the market process by individuals deciding whether or not to engage in trades. So, everyone complaining about Apple is free to count their displeasure as a too-high cost, and thereby stop buying Apple products. But that would mean forgoing something you otherwise still want right now. Much better instead demand a well-armed third party change the deal. Then, having your conscience eased by shrouding yourself in righteousness, you can go ahead and buy that thing. And by your actions, the ruling class -- both in business and politics -- can maintain and expand their power. ---- A term from economics seems apt: revealed preference. The only useful notion of preference is that revealed by one's choices, not by what one says are their preferences. The sad fact is that most people actually don't care, certainly not enough to inconvenience themselves.
• newscracker 6y ago
  Here are a few things Apple doesn’t take serious action on (that would be expected of a rich company) and/or completely ignores as if it’s not a problem: * Human rights preservation in its supply chain * Improving the repairability/serviceability of its products by third party entities so they can have longer useful lives * True end-to-end encryption of all data on iCloud and its online services All these are inter-related.
• tehjoker 6y ago
  The US state is promoting these stories because they want Apple to reduce its dependency on China so they can more easily conduct their trade war.
  • judge2020 6y ago
    But it's not really something they can do (and the Trump administration knows this), so this is probably just routine Apple bashing while everyone else also uses China and probably cares a lot less about their supply chain as long as they get their product after ample QC.
  • tehjoker 6y ago
    It also occurs to me that targeting someone like Apple also makes smaller players rethink their operations too.
• AnthonyWnC 6y ago
  I wouldn't believe anything that any Western MSMs write about China; they are basically zero credibility given the amount of fake news that they put out. It also doesn't take much critical thinking to realize the narrative that they have been pushing to the general public.
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• baybal2 6y ago
  Have anybody noticed how this topic mysterious lost few hundred points, sank to second page, and then came back to front? There is a noticable tendency for any China related topics, whether good, or bad to mysteriously disappear from the front page right at the start of the workday Pacific time, and after lunch hours.
  • DevKoala 6y ago
    I can attest to that. Any critic of the CCP tends to sink out of the first page in a matter of minutes. It looks like a concerted effort.
    • boruto 6y ago
      I seriously do not think that is the case. I don't know if everyone is paranoid or I am wrong.
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  • mgh2 6y ago
    Yes, it looked like censorship/manipulation, but HN explained it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 I suspect a bias towards Apple though... Note: I highly appreciate the work of the moderators in keeping HN objective, but it is not perfect- humans are naturally biased so this is to be expected...
  • Causality1 6y ago
    Pay attention for a while and you'll notice there's quite a list of topics and positions that are verboten,either because they have a personal army who care about them or there's a finger on the scale. For example, lightly and generally criticizing China will get you a lot of upvotes. Criticizing China in specific ways and proposing strategies of action will get your comment down voted and flagged.
    • ricardobeat 6y ago
• arminiusreturns 6y ago
  To the tune of Childish Gambinos "This is America": This is globalism This was always the point of offloading to other countries. Less regulations, lower wages, less powerful workers and workers unions, and higher profit margins. Ross Perot was right but nobody listened to him. Apple isnt unique, and this isnt the first time. Its systemic. So tired of the trope of accusing anybody critical of globalism of being an isolationist. Protectionism is a valid and needed (to a certain degree) approach for all nation states, ours included.
  • amelius 6y ago
    Even if it's systemic, you could at least try to do something about it if you're one of the big guys. This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one.
    • njanirudh 6y ago
      Apple is less of a leader and more of a mafia godfather
    • Judgmentality 6y ago
      > This is what I dislike most about Apple: they're trying to be a leader, but are not acting like one. How is Apple trying to be a leader in anything besides profits?
      • Fezzik 6y ago
        Apple absolutely attempts to present itself as a morally/ethically superior company. See, for example, from just 7 months ago: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/31/apple-ceo-tim-cook-email-to-employees-about-george-floyd.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/31/apple-ceo-tim-cook-email-to-... Or, re the environment, from Apple’s current website: https://www.apple.com/environment/ https://www.apple.com/environment/ You can find all sorts of similar posturing on a number of topics from Apple.
        • 6y ago
• killion 6y ago
  Does HN have to use the same Apple-baiting headline as The Washington Post? Lens Technology sells to all mobile phone makers. They are a massive public company with many customers... https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/international/how-zhou-qunfei-a-chinese-billionaire-built-her-fortune.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/business/international/ho...
  • grzm 6y ago
    The guidelines ask that the original headline be used in most cases, which it looks like the submitter did. If you have a suggestion for a better one, you can email the mods via the Contact link in the footer.
• russli1993 6y ago
  Let me get this straight, seems like if a company uses Uyghur workers they get accused of "forced labor". Then solution is easy, lets not hire any Uyghur people. No employment Ugyhur people. Then Uyghur people know what happens, they don't have income, they stay poor. This is what these people who accuses of Uyghur "forced labor" want? China may not have the best labor laws. But this is 2020, at will employment, employment with pay, is common sense and the absolute basic basic fact supported by law. If you don't like the place you work for, if you don't want to go out of the province to work, no one, not the police, not the company, will throw you in jail. This is not slave labor. Slaving is just no socially and legally acceptable in China I don't see it ever be possible. And let me be fully honest. Some local governments do tie special governmental poverty aids with participation in work programs. As in, you don't get certain poverty related aids if you are a able employable person but refuses to participate in a work placement program. But these people will still get standard social program, such as a basic state health insurance. And if the person is non-employable, for example, disabled, elderly, under working age, these don't apply. Another possible situation is, a person is work-able, but has no job and has a income level below the absolute poverty standard. Recently the government has a target goal to reduce absolute poverty rates, and the way they do that is try to get every employable person a job so they have income. This transfer work placement is one of the programs. The government work with companies to create work opportunities and get people placed in them. Some people will refuse work just because they don't want to. And the government has KPIs and targets to reduce out of work people has much as possible. So government would nag people to join work. And the aforementioned tying these special poverty aids with participation in work placement. But there is no legal consequence for refuses. No one will be able to place you in a jail. So if you say this government is coercion and "forcing" people to work this way, you can say that. But on the other hand, the idea is that people should make a living to support themselves. The government aids is partially interested in encouraging people to make a living on their own terms. A Chinese saying goes "授人以鱼不如授人以渔". But now, various interest groups, NGOs and countries (US etc) are now painting these companies and China as a country as using forced labor. They are destroying public image, and economically sanctioning. A company could provide jobs for Ugyhur people. And frankly, some goes out of their way to do so because there are so many other people in China these companies could employ. China's job market is very competitive. And now they might lose their business and go bankrupt. And let me tell you that a lot of Han people look at this and think is special preferential treatment towards Ugyhurs. They think why do I not get these work placement programs. I honestly feel this pretty twisted. Yes, there are bad stories in poverty reduction efforts the Chinese government is doing right now. Some local governments use illegal tactics. But the overarching goal is still positive. We as a society could leave people under absolute poverty to feed for themselves, let them stay at absolute bottom of society. But now, we set up and are doing something about it. At least we don't just talk the talk, but actually taking concrete actions. Yet, people outside of China is saying this is a "sin". And use this as an reason to punish China and the people living in the country to death. And how interesting this comes at a time when various countries and interest groups is trying to suppress China's economic growth, how limit China's economy is the mainstream tone in the media. I don't get how actively seeking to destroy a country's economy is moral, and how no one comes out and say "hey, this is not right". Economy is prosperity, is people's livelihoods, is people's well being, is people's ability to enjoy life. Painting an economy as a target and looking for all kinds of tools to destroy it is against all of the above. I always believed people want the best for others, people want others to live a happy, prosperous live. But the foreign policy of the US for the past 2 years, things US political leaders said, media outlet around the world said, destroyed that belief. Hatred is really alive and well in this world. Living breathing people can have so much hatred in them. Some people just want to see others suffer, burn and dead. And some of these people actually hold devastating amount of power that can shape the very lives of people, even if they are small, ordinary people who live literally on the other side of the planet.
• legulere 6y ago
  As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.
  • darig 6y ago
    The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relied on suppliers that are known to use prison labor. IBM – Apparently, inmates from Lockhart Prison in Texas manufacture this tech giant’s circuit boards. Texas Instruments – Like IBM, their circuit boards are also made by prisoners. They even got a new factory assembly room specially made for inmate laborers. Boeing – A subcontractor of Boeing was found to have used inmates to cut airplane components. Unsurprisingly, the prisoners only get paid less than a quarter of the usual wage for such type of work. Nordstrom – The company was once under fire for selling jeans made by inmates. They have since stopped the practice though, and have promised not to use involuntary labor of any kind again. Intel – Like other tech giants in this list, Intel has also outsourced labor from prison. Some of their computer parts were made in a prison manufacturing facility. Walmart – Despite pledging not to sell products made by prisoners, some of the retail giant’s subcontractors were using prison labor to dispose of customer returns and excess inventory. Victoria’s Secret – The top American underwear designer was paying inmates peanuts to make their expensive lingerie. AT&T – Rather than outsource their call centers to other English-speaking countries, AT&T hired prisoners instead. The problem is, they only receive $2 an hour for a job that usually pays $15. British Petroleum (BP) – In 2010, BP hired Louisiana inmates to clean up an oil spill. They received no payment from it. Starbucks – We all know that Starbucks employees make little hourly. But the prisoners who make the packaged coffee sold in their stores make even much less money. They only receive as little as 23 cents an hour. Microsoft – In the 1990s, Microsoft made a conscious decision to hire prisoners to pack their software and mouse. A spokesperson at that time even claimed that the company sees nothing wrong about it. Honda Motor Company – The Japanese car company hires inmates from Ohio Mansfield Correctional Institution to make some of its car parts. As expected, the company paid them next to nothing. Macy’s – Like Walmart and Target, this retail giant also uses prison labor to save on its operating costs. Sprint – Following the footsteps of its competitor, AT&T, Sprint also staffs its call centers with underpaid inmates. Nintendo – To pack their Game Boys, Nintendo hired a subcontractor who, in turn, hires prisoners at deplorable rates. JC Penney – Since the 90s, JC Penney has used prison labor for its clothing line. Female inmates used to sew leisurewear sold in their stores, and more recently, prisoners from Tennessee are making jeans for them. Wendy’s – As part of its cost-cutting measures, Wendy’s uses prison labor to process beef for their hamburgers. [1] https://blog.globaltel.com/companies-use-prison-labor/ https://blog.globaltel.com/companies-use-prison-labor/
• jskrn 6y ago
  What always surprises me in discussions on this topic is that many (seemingly) Chinese-origin commenters are bewildered that anyone opposes China's behavior. They've fully bought into the CCP narrative that the Govt is merely making the best decision for a lazy and unproductive people. Stripping people of the ability to choose their identity, stripping them of freedom of thought, stripping them of language and culture, stripping them of choice itself because their primary purpose is industrial output is wrong. I have no illusions that outside forces will change China's practices, but I don't see how they build a harmonious and prosperous society long term while doing what they're doing to large chunks of their population. So much of western innovation is based on immigrants ability to leave repressive govts for freedom of thought and practice. Will China ever be able to move from copying IP and manufacturing for others into inventing for itself?
• 99_00 6y ago
  What will these poor soul's fate be if/when they can't be forced to work?
  • c0nducktr 6y ago
    Is this sarcasm/irony? Hard to tell on the internet.
    • 99_00 6y ago
      Not sarcasm or irony. A genuine question. What will happen to them once they stop being a revenue source for the CPP and start being a cost.
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Is the post allowed to say if slaves make Amazon products?
• CodeWriter23 6y ago
  IMO this article launders slavery by referring to it as "forced labor".
  • frakkingcylons 6y ago
    I think the reason for saying forced labor was to distinguish it from chattel slavery (what most people think of when they see the word slavery), not downplaying the actions of this supplier.
    • CodeWriter23 6y ago
      The CCP has enslaved the Uighars, and gifted this manufacturer with some of them. How is this not chattel?
• cmurf 6y ago
  Apple also lobbied against the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act. Reprehensible. https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-nike-coca-cola-lobbied-china-uyghur-forced-labor-bill-2020-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-nike-coca-cola-lobbied... Passed the House, has not yet passed in the Senate. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6210 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6210
• Cyberthal 6y ago
  Traditionally slavery was an alternative to death for the conquered. I'm morbidly curious what the effects of all Western corporations banning slave labor would be. I doubt it would result in liberation. Would working conditions for the slaves worsen when they worked for local, lower-margin factories instead? I can't imagine them improving. I have little faith in legal remedies to liberate slaves. Arming them seems the only long-term effective solution. Otherwise the man with the gun will order the slave back to work the second the man in the wig isn't looking. And the man in the wig will remain silent, to avoid revealing his impotence. Slave labor is inefficient, so perhaps the best way is to topple inefficient slave societies through full-spectrum competition, from military to economic. This pressure incentivizes efficient human resource utilization. One thing's for sure: Individual Westerner guilt over whether to buy the next iPhone will add zero value.
  • jbm 6y ago
    > One thing's for sure: Individual Westerner guilt over whether to buy the next iPhone will add zero value. What, specifically, do you mean by this?
  • mahrain 6y ago
    Having spent several years in Chinese supply chain activities, the factories building iPhones, XBoxes etc. Are some of the nicest ones around. Clean, large campuses with organized activities for workers etc. There are several tiers of factories below that, with worse worker accommodations, Longer working hours, worse working conditions. Some of the smaller, poorer factories will provide little in terms of personal protective equipment, ergonomics, and make stuff for the local, African and South Asian markets where there’s little pressure on companies to have a “clean” supply chain. These workers would go there.
    • KozmoNau7 6y ago
      That sounds to me like "if we don't let our suppliers use child labor, those children's families will starve" argumentation. We in the west are complicit in the use of child and slave labor when we buy products produced in this manner, but because it happens on the other side of the globe and is cheaper that way, we turn a blind eye. The solution is not to ignore the issue. The solution is to draw a line in the sand and say "this is unacceptable, clean up your act or no deal", and for that to be backed by international trade agreements. It is up to us, as the lucrative market they wish to sell to, to make these demands. Full transparency and accountability in all supply lines is a must. It should not be possible to hide behind "a supplier did this, we're not responsible". I hope we'll see a move to more local production, instead of shipping stuff around the globe like crazy. It makes no sense for me in Europe to have my clothes produced in Asia, when we have world-class textile and garment production right here, with better environmental control and worker's rights.