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America is giving up on the pandemic?

• mberning 6y ago
  Why shouldn’t they? People were browbeaten for having the audacity to want to return to work. Now politicians are out marching shoulder to shoulder with thousands of other people. We also were told that Georgia was going to be a disaster for reopening too soon and that has not come to pass. It’s good to know that “believe science” and “stay home stay safe” are completely negotiable based on what is politically expedient.
  • goatinaboat 6y ago
    The “open letter” signed by 1200 experts stating that protesting was no risk, except for protests against the lockdown itself, was also mind boggling in its audacity.
    • mberning 6y ago
      Right. As if the virus has its own agency and cares why you are gathering.
      • goatinaboat 6y ago
        What I don’t get is if the virus is so woke, why it was infecting people without their consent?
    • robocat 6y ago
      "One in every 1,000 Black men and boys can expect to be killed by police in this country". If we presume average years of life lost per black person’s death is 50 years, then Covid is less deadly. To lower risk, black people could stay at home and wait for better times...
      • mberning 6y ago
        That is so stupid. There are some 40 million black folks in the US. Assume half are men. 20,000,000 divided by 1,000 is 20,000. The actual number of unarmed blacks killed by the police per year is generally 20 or less. Last year it was like 10. You can look it up on the Washington Post database.
        • robocat 6y ago
          Perhaps you could rewrite that to avoid implying I am stupid? Your facts don’t affect the argument.
        • dang 6y ago
          If you continue to break the site guidelines we will ban you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Your comment would be fine without the first sentence.
          • mberning 6y ago
            Please do. If you could completely delete my account that would be even better.
      • geomark 6y ago
        Those numbers seem to be vastly more than reported numbers of police killings. Whom are you quoting? Because I like to keep track of who makes such exaggerated claims.
        • robocat 6y ago
          This references the source data: https://theconversation.com/police-are-more-likely-to-kill-men-and-women-of-color-121158 https://theconversation.com/police-are-more-likely-to-kill-m... It says that between 2013 and 2018, about 96 in 100,000 (approx 1 in 1000) African American men were killed by police in the U.S. Death from Covid is also lifetime risk. It is a commonly reported statistic if you want to find other publications that say the same thing. Did you try googling for it — for example google: "1000 black men and boys" police
  • monadic2 6y ago
    > We also were told that Georgia was going to be a disaster for reopening too soon and that has not come to pass. Tell that to the families of the dead. I’m sure they’ll be happy to know they died propping up your portfolios while people starve on the streets. It’s the most american thing ever to insist on returning to work above all other values—there’s that death cult for you. The dow demands blood!
    • SPQT 6y ago
      You do understand that the poor are the one that suffer from the lockdown and its side effects? I'm making sweet sweet benjies while "working" from 3 bed home with garden and managed to gobble up stocks on the cheap when we were in sky is falling mode.
      • monadic2 6y ago
        Sure, but that was a choice by our government to not bail out the people—again, the death cult.
        • umanwizard 6y ago
          Do you have an example of any economic system in any country in the world, past or present, that could survive the majority of able-bodied people not working for a long period of time?
          • monadic2 6y ago
            How do you figure—where would the threat come from? We can certainly still produce necessary goods while the majority of the workforce stays home. In that light—every industrialized country, probably. Certainly other countries every where you look on every continent seem to be doing markedly better at this than the US, including countries that are opening back up. Our best parallels are the goddamn UK and Iran, the former of which is trying to hang itself and the latter we've been trying to choke out for 40+ years. Anyway, I can't even guess how you think the economy works if you think we need to open up or something bad will happen that nobody ever names. Oh no, a U shaped recovery and not a V shaped recovery? How will my 401k ever recover in the next six months?!? Think about all that risk to my capital! :'( How can this country ever recover from such a critical loss of portfolio value? Instead of actually ensuring people can survive this crisis, we've bought corporate debt and told people to get back to work. It's a goddamn joke of any understanding of economics. Honey, every person that's ever read adam smith could do better than that. "developing countries" are putting us to shame, and good for them, because we're on the bus in Speed.
  • dang 6y ago
    Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. We're here for curious conversation, not tendentious snark. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    • gbpz 6y ago
      It is snarky, but an accurate representation of the current climate.
      • dang 6y ago
        Even if that were true, it's not enough.
  • wwweston 6y ago
    I'm team "stay home" and I have an uneasy relationship with these protests: I don't love protest as a form of engagement in the first place (it has its place, but its has a lot of limits), and an epidemic wouldn't be my choice for timing it. That said: * We had the "I don't wanna stay at home" and "masks are tyranny" protestors a month ago, too... but as far as I know, most governments pretty much let those happen. Hell, they let a lot of those happened with the protestors heavily armed. Protestors drew a lot of criticism but more or less got to do what they wanted. * Similarly, it's pretty clear that most governments aren't thrilled about BLM protest crowds from a public health standpoint, but have adopted a range of tactics from "cooperate and keep peace" to "actively suppress." Protestors have drawn a mix of support and criticism and... in some cases got a beat down and trip through arrest processing, but in other cases kinda got to do what they wanted. It's not like social justice was just given a pass here; in some ways it actually has faced heavier resistance. * If we're comparing motives here, are we weighing "the audacity to want to return to work"? Or the audacity to want other people to return to work? And how would we compare that with, say, the desire to be free from being murdered or otherwise singled out for selective enforcement or brutality by officers of state? * Government direction didn't cause a retreat from social/economic engagement, it coordinated it. Most people would have done exactly the same thing they're doing now absent official direction, just at different times/thresholds, leading to the same eventual economic results but less effective epidemic mitigation. And the only thing that will get everyone back to work is either nihilism or trust that risks are well-managed.
  • sadsadsadsad 6y ago
    GA is one of the ~10 or so states that has gone above 1.0 rt again, lol.
• war1025 6y ago
  A thing I've noticed is that they stopped mentioning the daily numbers on the radio (NPR, more specifically Iowa Public Radio). It's sort of like the media has extracted all the juice they can from the pandemic and now we're just left with the pulpy mess that no one really wants to deal with.
  • ianai 6y ago
    I fear it might be more pernicious than that. There’s reason to believe states are misreporting their numbers to hide what’s going on with it. But I think the media senses the protests and racism issues have to take up all the available oxygen, “or else”.
    • lostapathy 6y ago
      I think this is a lot of it, for better or worse. I feel like a lot of people are afraid to talk about anything but the protests lately, lest they be branded as not supporting the protests.
      • ianai 6y ago
        What’s crazy though is for the first time in my life I actually fear for the future existence of the US. I watched 9/11 in real time and that didn’t feel as much of a threat to our existence as this does. There’s an actual civil war movement among the extremists now. I don’t think that existed during the civil rights movement days, even. Nor even the Vietnam fallout.
        • TeaDrunk 6y ago
          Do you have a link to the civil war movement claim? Are they being reported anywhere or by anyone?
          • pjc50 6y ago
            The "boogaloo" movement?
• Barrin92 6y ago
  The concerns are right but public assembly is critical in a democracy, and cannot be put on hold indefinitely. It's probably the most fundamental right in any civil society and with all these takes I have seen on twitter about COVID and the protests, a lot of people seem to seriously unerestimate the value that free assembly has. Covid as bad as it is will be an issue of the near future, civil rights gains or losses will have an impact in decades to come.
  • mberning 6y ago
    Unless you assemble because you want to work. Then the media will paint you in the worst light possible an act like you are actively murdering grandma.
    • monadic2 6y ago
      Idk about the media but I, personally, definitely judge you. Care about something that matters and not just yourself.
      • war1025 6y ago
        > Care about something that matters and not just yourself Maybe like feeding your family and keeping a roof over their heads?
        • monadic2 6y ago
          I think the ship has sailed for that kind of support from the government, unfortunately, in no small part due to reopening.
          • dionian 6y ago
            To what extent is/should government be responsible for this?
            • 6y ago
• Kataphract 6y ago
  Its nuts how big our societies have grown where hundreds of thousands could die and it wouldn't really matter (assuming you were willing to be a complete psycho about it). I really just can't see it affecting my life
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• lykr0n 6y ago
  > Businesses are opening Yeah. We never were going to be able to keep everything closed for much longer. There is a very anti-handout ideology here, and the amount of political will for more bailouts was dwindling. > Protests... Sorry about this one. There are more important issues that need solving right now, and momentum and timing are very important. Right now we're in a perfect storm where a large amount of people can protests. Day after day after day. The only way we could have kept the pandemic at bay if it was the only thing in the news and on everyone's mind. And more important things came along.
  • bagacrap 6y ago
    is it just an ideology? At a certain point, you do have to actually work to make the economy spin. No economy, no money for healthcare. People die from no economy. So this is not an ideology so much as acceptance of reality.
  • sfj 6y ago
    Protests are also the only thing people can do together and not likely to get arrested/fined. I wonder how many people care about the issues vs those that are out there just to have something to do?
• Animats 6y ago
  San Mateo County health officer: "The third modification of the shelter in place order is being made on 6/1/20. These modifications are being made in attempt to strike a balance. They are an attempt to find a way to increase the immunity of the population (in public health terms, this is called “herd immunity”) slowly and methodically, while minimizing premature death, with equity in mind, while not overloading the healthcare system, and minimizing economic damage. Many of these considerations work in opposite directions."[1] The current US death rate is about 1,000 per day, and that probably won't go down much until there's a vaccine or until 70% of the US population has had the disease. This is a "bury the dead and go on" situation. The US hasn't faced one of those since WWII. Meanwhile, don't bunch up, get good masks, and wear them. The mask supply situation has improved, although too many of them are junk. The US could probably beat this thing with enough N95 respirators. [1] https://www.smchealth.org/health-officer-statements-and-orders https://www.smchealth.org/health-officer-statements-and-orde...
  • redisman 6y ago
    N95 is overkill. You likely bring down the R0 below one if everyone wears just cloth masks. Less covid droplets in shared air. I still don’t see how will public transport for example resume in the next year. My bus was always packed like sardines and couldn’t fit everyone in it at the stop
    • Animats 6y ago
      N95 protects you. Cheapo masks protect other people. That's only useful with a much higher percentage of mask usage than observed in the US. Think this through. 50% use masks, 5% are spreading the disease. Interact with 100 people over a period of time. - Masks which protect others: (0.95)^50 chance of non-exposure = 0.6%. 92% of population exposed. - Masks which protect you: 50% of population exposed. This is oversimplified, but wearing masks which protect others just doesn't do much.
      • robocat 6y ago
        If a common mask protects you 50%, then that is a huge win both as an individual and as a group. Saying Assuming 0% in your calculations is biased. I think your word “cheapo” is derogatory. Are people just being cheap when they don’t buy an N95 mask? Saying “cheapo” masks only protect others is an incorrect conclusion: your language is also misleading.
• SPQT 6y ago
  Not a surprise, COVID19 is pretty soft compared to the historic pandemics. I'm actually suprised that this continued for so long, I gave the lockdowns 4 week, but I guess the media propaganda blessed it with longer life. Just to clarify about Covid: -The highest deathrate from it is around 1%, CDC reports 0.30 lately. -Hits predominantly the old parts of the population -The death comes in a normal way - pneumonia -> death, nothing like the bubonic plague or ebola symtoms
  • dageshi 6y ago
    For people who don't die it's still not a cakewalk, people describe it as the worst thing they've ever had and others barely even know they've had it.
  • mantap 6y ago
    "Predominantly" is doing a lot of work for you there.
  • throw112473 6y ago
    Fascinating. This means China’s numbers were actually quite accurate.
    • dionian 6y ago
      No it doesn't
    • SPQT 6y ago
      No, China initially said a bunch o' stuff like 3-5%
      • javagram 6y ago
        Not really, no. You can go back to medical journal articles from early march and see they were using Chinese and Korean data and predicted between 0.1-1% death rate per infection (IFR). Covid-19 — Navigating the Uncharted Anthony S. Fauci, M.D., H. Clifford Lane, M.D., and Robert R. Redfield, M.D. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387 Published February 29, 2020 > On the basis of a case definition requiring a diagnosis of pneumonia, the currently reported case fatality rate is approximately 2%.4 In another article in the Journal, Guan et al.5 report mortality of 1.4% among 1099 patients with laboratory-confirmed Covid-19; these patients had a wide spectrum of disease severity. If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.2
• hedora 6y ago
  Tl;dr: politicians are reopening schools, restaurants and shops around the country, but a week of BLM protests is going to cause a surge in COVID cases in the coming weeks. The models are so good they predicted the surge before George Floyd was killed. Did I miss anything?
  • zzo38computer 6y ago
    I think that restaurants and so on could decide for themself if they want to open or not, and what to do, and then the people can decide to go or don't go. But the people ought to be warned, regardless.
    • ghaff 6y ago
      >I think that restaurants and so on could decide for themself if they want to open or not I don't see restaurants and shops being forced to open if they don't want to.
  • DennisAleynikov 6y ago
    yep, you missed the facts while attempting to be snarky. schools and shops are not reopening and if they are with social distancing and masks. mass groups of people in every state will increase transmission more drastically than the reopening already did. thank you for your time
• ac29 6y ago
  Daily new deaths have been steadily falling even as states continue to ease or eliminate restrictions [0]: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ This article seems to completely ignore that, instead focusing on positive test results, even though the vast majority of infections are mild or even completely asymptomatic. If anything, America is giving up on the breathless projections of mass die off that aren't supported by reality.
  • nkozyra 6y ago
    Sort of. Florida has seen a consistent uptick in the last week. Some other states are seeing a bounce. I will say that 100k+ deaths is nothing to treat so trivially.
    • bagacrap 6y ago
      Treatment of the coronavirus has been anything but trivial. The monetary cost per year of life saved has been out of line with that of any other intervention for any other disease or threat to human life.
  • matwood 6y ago
    Deaths are a lagging indicator though. Daily infections are have stopped falling and are slowly creeping back up. Hopefully it’s just noise or increased testing.
  • cma 6y ago
    Deaths lag infections. Some increase in cases may be increase in test capacity etc., but to the extent infections are increasing and we haven't come up with much better treatment protocols, we should see an increase in death. One hope would be with outdoor exposure being more prevalent now relative to cramped indoor recirulating air exposure, exposure dose may be lower and result in better outcomes per infection. I don't know if there are any studies yet on how big of a difference that can make though.
  • mdturnerphys 6y ago
    That drop in daily new cases is due to a drop in NYC and neighboring areas. When you remove that area the daily cases shows an upward trend.
• LockAndLol 6y ago
  So is Europe. Apparently fueled by the protests in the US there have been demonstrations in Berlin, Paris, Amsterdam, Madrid, Barcelona and other cities. Not only are they protesting against racism but it seems like there are quite a few also protesting against the lockdown measures. Once the weather gets better again you can bet that all along the European coasts hoardes or people will be ignoring the laxer provisions. In fact, they already are. Europe (at least Western Europe) is also giving up on the pandemic. At this rate there's going to be a second wave. I have no idea if this will create better conditions for the virus to mutate and possibly herald a third wave keeping us in until 2022.
  • redisman 6y ago
    What I can’t even begin to understand is why would there not be a second wave? Nothing biological has changed. Prevention measures have been mostly a temporary lockdown which obviously has a extremely high cost in money and goodwill.
    • SPQT 6y ago
      We also have social distance + better hygiene + more PPE for doctors + improved security protocols in elderly care.
    • ytNumbers 6y ago
      Sometimes a virus will mutate to become less deadly. Could that be happening right now with COVID-19? Maybe. Judge for yourself... https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/doctors-around-world-say-covid-19-losing-its-potency-becoming-less https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/doctors-...
  • dehrmann 6y ago
    > there are quite a few also protesting against the lockdown measures. These protests are interesting and different because a lot of factors are playing into them: - Obviously, black lives matter - Pent-up anger over Trump - Pent-up frustration over lockdowns - Unemployed people with nothing to do - People who are desperate (read: have nothing to lose) - Media coverage focusing on very few issues And these issues play into each other.
• axguscbklp 6y ago
  This is a pretty heavily politicized article for something that is marked as "Science" by the publishers. The authors have a clear political agenda that bleeds through onto the page.
  • war1025 6y ago
    It's from the Atlantic. Of course it has a political agenda. That's why people read it.
    • axguscbklp 6y ago
      True. I guess I was hoping that they would at least avoid pushing the agenda in something that they themselves mark as "Science".
    • dehrmann 6y ago
      They try not to have a political agenda > In Politics, The Atlantic will be the organ of no party or clique, but will honestly endeavor to be the exponent of what its conductors believe to be the American idea. But I'd still generally describe them as a respected center-left new source. I wouldn't go as far as saying they have an "agenda."
• trhway 6y ago
  People, and not only in America, is just giving up on their hope that the governments would really start fighting pandemic, like produce tests, implement contact tracing, etc. The lockdown isn't a pandemic fighting tool, it was just a timeout to give governments the opportunity to start doing necessary things. Well, it hasn't happened and doesn't seems to in the future.
• 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
  I support the protests, and believe they can be done safely, but we can't forget about the virus. A quick googling gives me numbers between 300 and 1000 people dying of police violence per year. Call it 1k-2k per year. If we eliminate 50-100 years of that, we match what coronavirus has done in a couple months. However, places are starting to relax the shelter-in-place rules already, so people going out now isn't comparable to people going out a month or two ago. I do wish it weren't an either/or. Protest with your mask, and keep distance. To most people I know, this is how the protests they've been to have gone, so that's great and we should stop giving them shit, the same way as we shouldn't label the whole movement by the actions of some looters.
  • TeaDrunk 6y ago
    I don't know, numerically, if the large protests ongoing now are hugely more contributory to existing open<state> protests. For one, the large protests currently are highly masked, while the open<state> protests were highly unmasked (plus they put pressure on states to relax containment standards without any plan for contact tracing or similar).
    • 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
      Agreed, that's why I followed the numbers with a big "however." I'm trying to get better at writing clearly.
  • jl6 6y ago
    Is that 300-1000 unjustified deaths, or does it also include situations where the use of deadly force may have been reasonable?
    • mynameishere 6y ago
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic... Filtering for "2019, black, unarmed" you get: 15 people shot and killed by police match your filters (less than 1%) Change that to "2015" and you get: 38 people shot and killed by police match your filters (1%)
• zzo38computer 6y ago
  I think that, even after other things are opened up, they should continue to ban business travel and commercial airplane travel for some more time. This will mitigate international spreading (I don't how by how much, but it will help a bit). More testing would also be helpful. This way, you might have better data to work with.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• fpgaminer 6y ago
  Something odd I noticed in my local area is that for the most part all the protestors are wearing masks, yet people happily lounge around _inside_ restaurants without masks (and many times the staff themselves aren't wearing masks). I really feel like the protests are less of a vector than people think they are given this behavior. Perhaps it's like the car accident paradox where streets that would seem more dangerous have less actual accidents, because people pay more attention when driving them.
  • ncallaway 6y ago
    One thing that really frustrates me is that mask usage among protestors in Seattle is very good. Well north of 90%. I look around in the protests and in hundreds of people see one or two not wearing a mask. The you look across the lines at the national guard and the Seattle PD at see one or two masks at most! Why aren't the NG and PD wearing masks? Like, it's the smallest sign of caring and they don't do it.
  • leetcrew 6y ago
    AFAIK, we don't yet have a definitive conclusion on how effective the cotton masks that most people have actually are. we're pretty sure they're better than nothing, but that's about it. in my city, we've had thousands of people in a densely packed crowd marching on the interstate. they seem to have exhibited good discipline in wearing masks, but the masks would have to be really effective for that to be less of an infection vector than tens of unmasked people gathering in restaurants at a time. imo, arguing that the increased transmission risk is justified by the importance of the cause is reasonable. arguing that thousands of people gathering in the streets doesn't really move the needle for covid infections is a fantasy.
  • AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Most people who go into restaurants do so to eat. Doing that with a mask on is kind of hard. The staff is a different matter.
• deleted 6y ago
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• raz32dust 6y ago
  We now have a big unplanned experiment. We will see within the next few days if the protests lead to significant spikes. Personally, I think that the virus probably doesn't spread that easily outdoors, so while we will see a spike, it will be small enough that it will only make the case for opening up outdoor activities sooner. Fingers crossed.
  • TeaDrunk 6y ago
    I'm not sure if this is a big unplanned experiment any more than states already opening up and existing protests for opening up have already been doing.
  • lostdog 6y ago
    First we will see if all the memorial day barbecues caused a spike. And all the preemptive reopening orders in different states.
• coding123 6y ago
  My read of the CDCs numbers [0] seems to suggest to me that the CDC thinks 25M in the US have HAD the virus. It's also likely that the people willing to protest probably are among those that already caught it, so infection spreading may actually be minimal. 0 https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scena...
  • asdff 6y ago
    That's a big gamble.
    • coding123 6y ago
      Yeah I'm not totally convinced myself of the CDCs numbers, and there's probably going to be consequences in a couple weeks.
• mydongle 6y ago
  Judging by how health experts have given protestors a pass to forgo social distancing , yeah, I can say it's all in the toilet now.
  • pstuart 6y ago
    I haven't seen anything to that effect. Care to share?
    • mydongle 6y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-lette... https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-health-protests-301534 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-hea... https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/1288-public-health-professionals-disgrace-their-profession/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/1288-public-health-pro...
      • pstuart 6y ago
        The letter -- which went on to draw more than 1,200 signatures -- focuses on techniques to reduce harm to people protesting racial injustice. The letter does encourage social distancing as well. It seems that you are looking for "whataboutisms" here.
        • mydongle 6y ago
          Nuance is not so important in this situation. The effect is that people have been effectively given a pass to disregard the virus, as long as they're "protesting". Look at the protests and all the riots, do you see social distancing happening? People are throwing punches out there my dude. It's chaos.
          • pstuart 6y ago
            You see what you want to see. The letter specifically cites the importance of social distancing as well as other measures. It's clear that your position is not in support of the protests, so you should just come out and say it directly, rather than continue your whataboutism that is, quite frankly, untrue. Since nuance is not your thing, I guess we'll just leave it at this. Have a nice day.
• deleted 6y ago
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• metrokoi 6y ago
  Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators' ability to gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders." Why are many taking this position? One can recognize that the protests are risking an increase in virus transmission while still recognizing that it is a risk worth taking. Don't tell us there is no risk from these protests, but there is a risk from stay-at-home protests. The virus is not selective of political beliefs. It completely ruins the credibility of many health professionals. Almost no one's opinions will be swayed either way if they acknowledged that the protests do carry a real risk of transmission. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-lette...
  • DennisAleynikov 6y ago
    fake scientific consensus that fits political consensus... huh who could have known this was a partisan issue not about health
    • WalterBright 6y ago
      There's been a lot of talk in the last few years about "believing in science" pushed by politicians. However, there is a long history of science being "adjusted" to fit political agendas. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
  • twblalock 6y ago
    Their statements make sense if you realize that public health experts have not been speaking to the American people the way scientists would speak to an informed audience. They were being political because they didn't think the people could handle nuance. They oversimplified the explanation of the science and pushed for lockdowns at all costs with no exceptions. Now, by admitting there are exceptions, they reveal that they were not being straight with us all along.
• twblalock 6y ago
  The article’s authors are losing sight of the original justification for the lockdowns: “flatten the curve” was about preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed. Of course cases will increase when people leave their homes. But have the hospitals been overwhelmed in any of the states that started to reopen several weeks ago? No! In that case the lockdowns have served their purpose. The authors of this article are arguing more from a pro-lockdown position than from an anti-virus position — they seem to care more about defending the lockdowns than they do about actually solving the problem, even though it’s becoming obvious that new solutions, like partial reopening, are working.
  • rabidrat 6y ago
    In addition to preventing hospitals being overwhelmed, the lockdowns were intended to give us time to develop the infrastructure for adequate testing, tracing, and supportive isolation. With those things in place, we can re-open and still keep the virus in check. If we don't have those things in place, the problem is not the re-opening, which was inevitable since indefinite lockdown and isolation is not sustainable anyway.
    • vharuck 6y ago
      This is why I hold the "discordant" opinions that we should reopen the economy (with reasonable caveats like 6 feet distances, masks, and outside dining when possible), but am still staying inside myself like the past 3 months. I'm going to do my small part in not being a vector. But there's no way the US is ever reaching New Zealand's success at discovery, tracing, and isolating before a vaccine's available. The virus is still an awful pandemic and will have major consequences, but we have no good choices anymore.
      • nikofeyn 6y ago
        > The virus is still an awful pandemic and will have major consequences, but we have no good choices anymore. this is what is unbelievably frustrating. most people in the u.s. basically hold the opinion that everything wasn't so bad, and that things came out okay. meanwhile, most of the numbers point to the u.s. being one of the worst managed countries with respect to the virus. it's really sickening there is this dissonance with people. i don't feel safe in the u.s. and will be staying away from people as long as possible. it just feels sickening though, because that length will be indefinite in the u.s. until a vaccine arrives.
• mydongle 6y ago
  It's tragic watching this play out. 4chan's /pol/ amongst many other racists love it. They don't have to do anything while everything implodes. They see Covid-19 as a nothing burger, and health experts giving these protestors a pass vindicates their belief. But if Covid-19 is not a nothing burger, then these protests will end up with many black people and other minorities sick and possibly dead. People on the alt-right have mostly avoided doing anything and are telling their side not to engage. Because as far as they are concerned, right now it's just leftists burning their own leftist cities down.
  • DennisAleynikov 6y ago
    bingo the information war is being fought with bricks and 'boogaloos', nothing about 9 days of riots and protests goes against 4chans goals and desire to throw the US into chaos. you don't even need disinformation when articles will back you up based on your political alignments
  • carapace 6y ago
    In re: > They see Covid-19 as a nothing burger, and health experts giving these protestors a pass vindicates their belief. Four minutes later someone says just that: > by admitting there are exceptions, [public health experts] reveal that they were not being straight with us all along.
    • twblalock 6y ago
      I never said I thought Covid-19 was a nothing-burger, and I have nothing to do with the right-wing online crazies. Nevertheless it is clear that public health experts have not been straight with us. You don't need to be a right-wing loon to see that their open letter contradicts what they have been saying until now. Why did you personally attack me and associate me with the 4chan nutters with no basis whatsoever?
      • carapace 6y ago
        > I never said I thought Covid-19 was a nothing-burger, and I have nothing to do with the right-wing online crazies. I never said you did. > Nevertheless it is clear that public health experts have not been straight with us. Depends on the public health officials you listen to, eh? > You don't need to be a right-wing loon to see that their open letter contradicts what they have been saying until now. I agree. Mass protests during a pandemic are irresponsible although understandable, in my opinion, and the open letter people are talking about in this thread sounds to me to be pretty irresponsible as well, although I haven't read it. I just watched a bunch of videos of demonstrations happening today all over the world. While my heart soared a little voice in the back of my head was saying "...but covid is loving this..." > Why did you personally attack me and associate me with the 4chan nutters with no basis whatsoever? I didn't attack you, I wasn't even responding to you. I was struck by the pattern match, that's all. I apologize for the offense, and wish you well.
• tobias3 6y ago
  We had large BLM demonstrations yesterday here in Germany. Demonstrators did not follow Corona virus rules (compared to e.g. fridays for future). If COVID-19 spreads in those circumstances (outside, mostly with masks, but close contact + chanting), this'll have been the last of those demonstrations here.
  • wendyshu 6y ago
    Are black people in Germany especially abused by the police?
    • MagnumOpus 6y ago
      There are few black people in Germany. They are racially profiled, probably just as much as middle-eastern looking people, but excessive police violence against them is rare, and usually properly investigated and punished. In Germany, much of the ire around unpunished excess police force is around riot response squads who regularly use excessive force against leftist protests (anti-G20, anticapitalism/Occupy, anarchists), especially if some of the protesters turn to vandalism, start setting fires or attack the police.
• aazaa 6y ago
  > The virus has not mapped neatly onto American political narratives, either. While some questions remain about their accounting, Georgia and Florida—where leaders opened up early and residents seemed relatively defiant of public-health advice—have seen relatively flat numbers, while California, which took a more conservative approach, has seen cases grow. The state most poised for major trouble seems to be Arizona, where the outbreak is spreading very quickly. Not only is the state (which lifted its stay-at-home order on May 16) setting new records for positive tests and people in the hospital, but the percentage of tests that are coming back positive is also growing. So much for warm weather and sunshine alone stamping out viral transmission, as some had hoped: Phoenix saw only a single day’s high under 90 degrees during May. The state’s age demographics also haven’t played an obvious role: The state is slightly younger than the U.S. as a whole. This may be the most striking thing at the moment. The pandemic isn't evenly distributed in the US. Several factors compound the problem, including: 1. the time between the enactment of policy and the consequences varies 2. there may be an underlying seasonal component that's modulating stats in certain states 3. states show varying degrees of commitment to complete, accurate reporting of test results and rigor 4. positivity rates (# positive results vs # of tests) are rarely, if ever reported so it's nearly impossible to assign weight to increases or decreases in cases/fatalities Throw this all together and you get one big, fat mess. It's nearly impossible to figure out exactly what's happening with respect to viral spread or why. National-level efforts to track or contain the spread are weak at best. We should all hope that point (2) is not a major factor in this. If it is, a bigger, badder sequel of the early spring, starting around fall seems inevitable.
• dang 6y ago
  All: if commenting, please be up to date on the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and be sure follow them. Start here: Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Don't use a thread like this to fulminate or flame. It helps no one. It adds toxic fumes. Regardless of how right you are or which color the fumes, that points in the direction we're trying to avoid in this community. There are important and interesting issues here. It's fine to debate, but do it within the guidelines. You'll do a better job of making your substantive points that way too.
  • dang 6y ago
    This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place, so that it can be collapsed and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of the thread.
    • christiansakai 6y ago
      Sorry I’m not a native English speaker. What does do not cross examine here mean? I thought cross examination is good?
      • airstrike 6y ago
        I suppose the dialogue in comments should be closer to two researchers thinking about a problem than lawyers cross-examining witnesses in court
        • christiansakai 6y ago
          Ooh okay I get it. Thanks.
        • dang 6y ago
          Precisely. Your wording is reminiscent of an old thing pg wrote, which I love: Comments should be written in the spirit of colleagues cooperating in good faith to figure out the truth about something, not politicians trying to ridicule and misrepresent the other side. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=pg%20colleagues%20cooperating&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
• garrickvanburen 6y ago
  No, not giving up. Just reprioritized. All I think we’ve proven is that a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence. There’s nothing in here about disregarding recommendations from epidemiologists. It’s about saying enough is enough on a persistent threat, not an acute one.
  • realtalk_sp 6y ago
    > All I think we’ve proven is that a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence. The problem is a large percentage of the population has very little to fear from this virus. The reason quarantining and other tactics had to be top-down mandated is that individuals acting selfishly threaten other people. That has not changed. In short, a large number of immunocompromised and elderly persons are going to die as an almost direct consequence of the protesting. Apparently, we're okay with that.
  • downerending 6y ago
    > a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence The chances of experiencing life-changing injury or death from either are vanishingly small. Too bad we can't get people this excited about obeying traffic regulations.
    • jointpdf 6y ago
      Unlike people, not all deaths are created equal (in my opinion). What I mean is: a death caused by systematic oppression/racism (especially from an entity whose core purpose is to “serve and protect”) is in some deontological sense worse than a death resulting from e.g. a car accident or even a virus. Some things defy utilitarian calculus. Also, you have to consider that there is widespread and life changing psychological injury (trauma) inflicted on minorities from years, decades, centuries of systemic injustice along every axis of life. Imagine being a child and growing up with a worldview that you and your loved ones are in constant danger (from people that are supposed to protect you, no less) based solely on the color of your skin. I keep thinking of the powerful words of George Floyd’s friend Stephen Jackson in this clip (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0JdWfUJYYU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0JdWfUJYYU): >”We, as black men, have seen a lot of stuff as far as people being murdered and taken from us, right? But now, not only it’s been seen by us and our brothers, but it’s been seen by our children now. So I’m sitting there watching this and my daughter...my daughter tells me, ‘Dad I can’t leave you, cause I seen what happened to your friend, and I think you need me.’ My daughter is 6 years old. For my daughter to see that, and tell me that I need her at 6, imagine the pain and frustration that’s in my mind right now”.
• sadsadsadsad 6y ago
  it was clear in april most people are too selfish/small minded to take precautions for much longer. wave two is already incoming.
• DeonPenny 6y ago
  The point of the lockdown is to prevent overloading the medical infrastructure. No one agreed to stop being around each other until the virus is gone. Since the overloading doesn't seem to be happening no one cares anymore.
• achenatx 6y ago
  Just wanted to add that the abolish the police sentiment isnt as inane as it sounds on the surface. Abolish the police is about taking away responsibilities that police have today and giving them to people more suitable. Police - people trained for aggression with weapons to stop violent criminals should not be handling: 1) mental health 2) homeless 3) drug addiction 4) domestic violence 5) traffic stops etc etc They should be called to handle 1) robbery in progress 2) active shooters etc The Not police should be trained in deescalation and should be familiar with all the social resources necessary to help people in the community. The not police should not be armed
  • lsh123 6y ago
    Please add universal concealed carry laws (including all private spaces) and you have me onboard
    • zarathustreal 6y ago
      I second this suggestion. If you want to take guns away from police at least allow me to legally defend myself. Imagine criminals being the only ones with guns.
      • DuskStar 6y ago
        "but that'll lead to more school shootings!", cry the people who've apparently never considered that school shootings are premeditated and the shooters tend not to care about the law.
        • zarathustreal 6y ago
          "Think of the children!" is nothing more than an appeal to fear, the oldest form of manipulation.
  • rpiguy 6y ago
    Unfortunately, items 1, 3, 4, and 5 are all extremely dangerous. The Not Police would be in grave danger. There is a reason that the Police Police are armed. That guy on drugs could stab you, you could pull a car over and that person could have a gun, you could go to stop domestic violence and get attacked. Police brutality goes up proportionately with violent crime in their area. In other words, the more police deal with very dangerous people all the time and the more their reactions become more aggressive to everyone. It is no excuse for murder like what happened with Floyd, but there is a reason we don't send social workers out to domestic violence calls or drug calls... Plus citizens have the right to own guns (which I am ever thankful for now with rioting breaking out across the country). Unarmed Not Police would be a joke.
• realtalk_sp 6y ago
  The comment thread here, and the national attitude more generally, is the literal embodiment of cognitive dissonance. Science and facts are only useful insofar as they are convenient to our ends. I suppose, in light of the shortcomings of human nature, it would be a lot easier to make the point that needs to be made if we were dropping bombs on coronavirus victims and broadcasting the carnage instead of rolling them up into statistical output. Their crime, apparently, is dying in a way that isn't direct and emotionally resonant enough for other human beings to grasp the magnitude of it.
  • zarathustreal 6y ago
    Painfully true, and very well put. I hope for the day that twitter realizes most of America is not actually on twitter and trending hashtags do not represent the common sentiment.
  • bagacrap 6y ago
    I think you're right that "science" and "data" are only believed when they align with one's views. But people seem to care a lot more about coronavirus deaths than deaths from war, flu, air pollution, traffic accidents, cancer (since screenings are down since lockdown), etc, so I can't agree with you on the other point. Let's not forget that the data is far from all collected, and the science is not settled, wrt either the true impact of the virus or the effectiveness of various responses to it. I don't think it's wise to assume that science will bear out any one particular point of view, once there is better data, more perspective, and a scientific consensus.
    • realtalk_sp 6y ago
      You're digressing from the core, indisputable truth: these protests, in the present environment, will result in a significant number of deaths. Sure we won't start to have a sense of just how many until a few more weeks have passed, but we can say with relative certainty it will be "significant". The reason people are dodging this is because it makes these protests morally indefensible, on balance. This is terribly inconvenient if you've entrenched yourself in a particular way of thinking and no longer wish to question it.
• Animats 6y ago
  Total deaths in US caused by police. (2019, full year): 1112 [1] Total deaths in US caused by coronavirus (last Friday, one day): 975 [2] [1] https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed-in-2019-we-think-1841183889 https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed... [2] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
  • treyfitty 6y ago
    I see the intent... but scale is drastically different. You’re comparing a yearly figure to a daily one that is nowhere near the daily max to begin with.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • Anon1096 6y ago
      I believe that is the point of the comment. That one day of COVID is equivalent to a whole year of police killings.
      • treyfitty 6y ago
        Without context, it’s hard to ascertain if the point the parent is trying to make is either: 1) Police Killings are low. 2) Covid deaths have bottomed. In the context of police killings, that 1,000 figure doesn’t indicate if it’s innocent killings- sure some may be, but how many are suicide by cop? How many are due to hostage situations? Or how many are due to being fired upon first? In regards to Covid deaths, 1,000 daily deaths is low compared to the 3,000 we saw at the peak. So, what point is the parent trying to make?
  • grey-area 6y ago
    The US is no5 in the world for police homicides, just behind countries like the Philippines, Syria, Brazil. Not a record to be proud of - 1,536 in 2019 according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... Other countries manage to achieve numbers like 2 for Japan, 3 for the UK, 11 for Germany which is nowhere near even adjusted for population. American police kill more people per capita than almost every other country. Per 10 million people that's: 46.6 for the US 0.5 for the UK 0.2 for Japan
• enitihas 6y ago
  Not an American, but seeing the current divide in the US makes me curious. What happens if Trump wins again in 2020?
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• ImaCake 6y ago
  >These numbers all reflect infections that likely began before this week of protest. If I were a machiavellian populist facist president of the USA I would ignore this reality and immediately start blaming the protests for increased case incidence of SARS-II. I don't think this ends soon, in fact I suspect this political fight will get worse before it gets better.
• tuna-piano 6y ago
  I wish our scientists would be completely apolitical and stay within their realm of expertise when speaking publicly. For the non-factual topics, such as whether there an epidemic of unjustified police violence against black people (the data does not clearly show that there is - and in fact imo shows that there is not), stating their opinion on the political topic means their scientific opinion loses credibility immediately for significant percentages of the population. Why do any scientists talking about the spread of virus need to say that they support the cause? When they say that they do support the cause, why should the 40% of the country who voted for Trump and watches Fox News still follow their scientific advise? I can't help but look back on the anti-lockdown protests and sympathize with those people's skepticism and animosity toward scientists.[1] It feels to me as the hard sciences have been inflicted with the same political ideology that has dominated the arts+social sciences and that the scientists are scared to share their scientific opinions in an apolitical way. The same reason that your dishsoap company emailed you to let you know their political beliefs. I remember seeing photos during the anti-lockdown protests of medical workers standing in front of cars: https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/denver-counter-protest-health01.jpg?w=800&quality=85 https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/denver-count... And a few weeks later photos spreading virally of medical works supporting protests: https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onecms.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F20%2F2020%2F06%2F03%2Fnurses-blm-protest.jpg https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F... It feels to me that in much of America, politics are not allowed to be public unless they align with liberal views. Is there any reason to have renewed confidence in these influential people and institutions? [1]https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1267281387486412801 https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1267281387486412801
• dfilppi 6y ago
  Reads like a political hit piece
• Schnitz 6y ago
  We're glad if we're still around after the election in November...
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• xnx 6y ago
  fwiw the question mark is not present in the original article.
• NotSammyHagar 6y ago
  There's every reason we should see a good increase in cv19 spreading, because there is no reason for it not to. Washington State's daily number on Sunday, June 7 is 450 new pos cases, [1] which was last seen on the first of April. 2 months later coming back to early April numbers. [2]. We are testing 50% more per day (about 4k/day in early April, 6k/day now). Even though we increased testing by 50%, it was only recently that WA state got daily pos counts matching 2 months ago. My opinion is that standing up for the current abhorrance of police violence connected to BLM is worth some endangering behavior on their own choice (i.e. going out in crowds, because it's a multi-100 year problem), whereas getting a haircut is not the same, but I see why that's contentious. 1000 more people getting a positive case that wouldn't have otherwise will lead to a few deaths, and they will spread it and kill a few more. It's personally horrible to just write down that fact and not know what to do with it. 1. https://bing.com/covid/local/washington_unitedstates https://bing.com/covid/local/washington_unitedstates 2. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/NovelCoronavirusOutbreak2020COVID19/DataDashboard https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/NovelCoronavirusOutbreak2...
  • CydeWeys 6y ago
    These protests are a complete rounding error compared to how many personal interactions were going on in a single day back in March when everything was still open for business as usual and no one was wearing masks. COVID-19 cases will go up when the economy reopens. Until then I'd be surprised if we even see a statistically noticeable blip from these protests.
  • gbpz 6y ago
    The haircut comments drive me up the wall, particularly if you know someone who owns a small business and their accompanying struggles. Economic money movement was stalled, which can have an enormous impact on livelihood. While I can absolutely understand being critical of when protestors wanted things to re-open, it shows a deliberate attempt at being unable to empathize.
    • NotSammyHagar 6y ago
      I am empathetic with those who will lose small businesses. I have someone in my family personally affected. I think the potential customers who wanted to get a haircut or their nails done were making a less important request than the person who is losing their livelihood. That is a different issue than the impact on the small business owner who is devastated by this. Someone in my family is facing financial devastation because they work in the wedding industry and all weddings are of course on hold. This person could lose everything. Yet I don't want my or anyone else's old relatives to die because of more spreading. Also my niece has a job in a restaurant that isn't open any more - they tried to open but not enough customers came. With the people going to protests, we are certain to have increased infections in a week or two.
• RickJWagner 6y ago
  It seems like the coronavirus precaution phase is over, and I think it's somewhat political. A week ago, a Facebook friend of mine posted a passionate post about the importance of wearing masks. This weekend, the same friend posts a photo sitting around with friends, sans-mask. This same friend is very politically active. Honestly, some of his actions seem linked to whatever the current hot-topic is. I think there's been a shift in emphasis, hence the lack of caring for the mask this week.
• giantDinosaur 6y ago
  The weirdest thing to me is that we have people protesting for fairly deontological reasons - i.e. a reasonable 'killing is wrong', while being ruthlessly utilitarian - 'covid deaths are a price we must be willing to pay for reform'. Interesting!
  • bittercynic 6y ago
    Having your community brutalized by the very organization that is supposed to provide protection is very different from having members of the community dying of disease. Both are extremely awful, but at least the disease doesn't seem to be trying to undermine civil society.
    • ghthor 6y ago
      Claiming that the police are trying to "undermine civil society" is disingenuous.
• throwawaysea 6y ago
  Trevor Bedford (Associate Professor in the Department of Epidemiology at the University of Washington) noted today that the protests will add 200-1100 deaths per day of protests: https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269533303536664576 https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269533303536664576. Mapping Police Violence (https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/) notes that police killed 1098 people in 2019 in the US. Per the Washington Post, the figure is 1043 but that's specifically for shootings (which covers almost all officer involved deaths): https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic.... And in all likelihood, most of those situations were handled properly and professionally and the deaths were justified (without wrongdoing on the police's part). So we've just taken on far more undeserved deaths due to irresponsible protesting and rioting than the very brutality we were outraged about in the first place! How was this even allowed? It is completely irrational to permit these protests, and to tolerate these super spreader events given the harsh restrictions we placed on our lives in response to COVID-19. I cannot believe that healthcare professionals and public health officials are lining up to excuse the protests. This, just a couple weeks after they were all criticizing moderates/conservatives who wanted to see orders relaxed. The healthcare professionals and public officials who've jumped on the train of rationalizing their flip flopping are simply too afraid to admit that they're willing to tolerate the risks for activities and causes they align with, but they still want to force others to make sacrifices with the activities that they value. In other words, one set of rules for them, another set of rules for everyone else. I've lost faith in our elected officials, public institutions, healthcare providers, and academic bodies as a result of this hypocrisy and failure of logic. A more fair and just handling of COVID would be to let every individual assess the risks and benefits of their activities themselves, as individuals, and let them go about their way. If a business wants to stay open, so be it. If a customer wants to visit a business, so be it. Those who are risk averse and afraid of exposure can choose to deal with that risk by impacting only their own lives by sheltering themselves.
• vgchh 6y ago
  Being an American (Naturalized), I am unable to understand where are we headed. It's often said that America always bounces back. That American spirit and innovativeness is unmatched and capable of overcoming any obstacles. However, the current environment feels surreal. We have had the most Covid infections and most deaths in the world. Mass protests against police brutality, being met with more police brutality. Widespread looting in the shadows of the protests. Toxic politics deeply dividing people. Sometimes I get calls from worried (and shocked) relatives living in other parts of world, inquiring about our well being and why things are so bad in America. Where are we headed relative to rest of the world? Is America going to be the leading light for the world again?
  • remote_phone 6y ago
    I think Biden should choose a moderate Republican as his VP. That is the most symbolic choice he could make that he is serious about bringing this country back together. It’s just about the only thing he could do that would unite this country. Going further left will destroy this country, not because I disagree with the policies but because right now we are in a crossroads for this political divisiveness.
    • selimthegrim 6y ago
      He should choose that Orlando police chief
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • dehrmann 6y ago
      I used to halfway joke that the US needed a McCain Lieberman ticket. But wow, yes, that'd be a good choice. Condoleezza Rice? George W. Bush is eligible (90% jokingly). Biden and Bush would be malapropism gold for SNL.
  • cylinder 6y ago
    >That American spirit and innovativeness is unmatched and capable of overcoming any obstacles. marketing hype. That's what America is good at it. Yes, America is a leader in innovation and technology and business. No, there is not something "exceptional" about the US or Americans relative to other free market, liberal countries that makes it "capable of overcoming any obstacle" other than its very large market size, possession of a resource-rich landmass with a relatively small population density. Yet instead of recognizing their luck and good fortune, Americans tell the world things like: God chose us, we are exceptional people, we are special, etc., which is nonsense.
• gregwebs 6y ago
  Yes, and the reason why is unfortunately articles like these which only compare US states to each other or the US to Europe. If you look in these places, there is no good solution. But all we have to do is look across the Pacific Ocean. There are many Asian countries aggressively stopping the virus without lockdowns. Their citizens are leading fairly normal lives right now except many still must wear masks everywhere. They have achieved this by contact tracing every single case and stopping all new outbreaks. But the US is still trying to learn how to do contact tracing, and without federal leadership on this it is unclear if the US will be able to get proper contact tracing working.
• shibeouya 6y ago
  When I see health experts saying we can have groups of up to 12 people outside BUT protests up to 100 people, it really does not look good for the credibility of these experts. Nobody denies that the pandemic is/was a real thing. But at that point it has been politicized ad nauseum and this is bad. It will for sure have an impact on how much people trust experts, and general trust in experts was already bad before this. But now nobody should dare blame anyone for not believing an expert after the sham we have all seen. Very sad that the pandemic has stopped being about science but moved to being about politics. Good luck getting compliance if there is, god forbid, a second wave or another more deadly virus in the future.
  • Dumblydorr 6y ago
    Everything is politicized, especially that which affects the economy and elections. The pandemic will continue even if public health experts are not willing to go against the grain and admit protests will lead to more infections and more deaths. These experts may be succumbing to pressure and there is clearly backlash against non-woke voices within the left.
• pengaru 6y ago
  America has ADD.
• known 6y ago
  There is nothing much Govt can do; You're on your own; https://masks4all.co https://masks4all.co
• acroback 6y ago
  So no one is going to talk about how the Model is a mathematical model which follows Bayes Theorem in it's core. It updates it's priors based on new evidence presented every day. The whole point of the Model is to detect things which are uncertain by nature. Being wrong is not bad, it's good TBH. CMIIW.
• deft 6y ago
  >This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders. Some protests are allowed but not all? Why?
• microcolonel 6y ago
  It's not just America. Here in Ontario, at least in my city, the lockdown in mostly over. Social distancing is the mildest suggestion in the parks, virtually nonexistent in many businesses. Pizza slice joints, grocers, most things are pretty normal, outside legal orders against work. It seems to me that there is U.S. tribe that worships the lockdowns despite the evidence, for no articulable reason other than a hatred for the President, or a proximity to the culture surrounding that hatred. We have been delivered a blessing, in the reality of the matter, and it seems like some people are more upset that the good news demonstrates the hubris of their attempts to control the outbreak.
• mola 6y ago
  I'm afraid it was obvious US would not be able to deal with this. Powerful people have lost all sense of empathy. Their power is much more important to them than the lives of some poor people. The, rational, social darwinistic ideology has its grip firmly in the minds of Americans. I'm not even talking about the obvious culprits. I'm talking about us, we are obsessed with money and consumerism. We think optics is more than reality, We talk about political identity, where the obvious problem is class. We are shattered to tiny pieces fighting each other while a handful of people (not just white, mind you) keep their power. Sad
• mesozoic 6y ago
  Good question that the media seems to be avoiding. I'll be watching our infection rates closely over the next 2 weeks and have some real questions about everything if they don't spike.
• Traubenfuchs 6y ago
  Overblown stay at home / quarantine measures are the biggest harm done to the citizens of (Western) countries, since their last respective big wars. The damage is and will continue to be immeasurable. How will the years of life we saved measure up to the years of life and quality of life we have ruined? We will never know.
• FerretFred 6y ago
  It's interesting (to me) that centuries ago, plagues could last for decades and the rapidly-declining populations had to put up with this. Obviously they didn't have the scientific knowledge that we have now. However, although we have more knowledge now, we don't yet have a vaccine, nor a political system that puts people first instead of profits, so might we find ourselves in the same situation as our ancestors? Sure, we also have the ability to complain to more people, more quickly, but that's about it.
• Stranger43 6y ago
  Everyone is giving up on the containment strategy of shutting down all public spaces, some do it slowly to give the illusion of control, where as other simply open up and let people sort it out on their own but i doubt you will find a single state/nation waiting on the magical vaccine(that might not arrive) that fixed the issues with zero side effects to start returning to normal. Some of that is due to the fact that the number seen in context(https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death#what-do-people-die-from https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death#what-do-people-di...) are not as extreme as it was feared/hyped, and that the containment measures were to little to actually stop the pandemic and never designed with that goal in mind.
• ev0lv 6y ago
  Most people who I talk to don't really care about it anymore because they are convinced that the statistics are inflated as a direct result of Hospital administrators fighting for more funding. I think for every 100 covid deaths, it's probably closer to 1-5 actual covid deaths and the rest just get conflated.