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Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

• dheelus 8y ago
  The entire Apple universe is bizarre. I've not used an Apple product except for the first gen iPhone but I did love it when I did. Since then, Apple has been behind the curve on every thing. I want to go back to using Apple since I really like their stance on privacy and security but feature wise they're usually 2-3 years behind a Samsung or a Microsoft. And now, this...
  • FreakyT 8y ago
    In terms of their computers, there has absolutely been a decline in quality, but in terms of their other product lines (and you specifically mention phones), I don't really think this is correct. I mean in terms of phones, the iPhone X is pretty much top of the line -- are there other phones that exceed it in a meaningful capacity? Bezel-free design, face recognition, fake-DLSR like camera effects, etc.
    • toomuchtodo 8y ago
      None of those features on the X are what I’d call flagship, and is likely what is contributing to their lackluster sales numbers at that price point. Just provide a decent battery and screen, TouchID, and the best camera you can with the remaining space.
      • inapis 8y ago
        > and is likely what is contributing to their lackluster sales numbers at that price point. I think the price tag alone has a significant impact on iPhone X's sale not withstanding the effect that the older iPhones (especially 6s) are holding up really well if you don't want or need a better camera.
    • seabird 8y ago
      There's plenty of phones on par with the iPhone that blow it away in the cost department. Android hardware has had good screens, good cameras, good specs, and plenty of screen unlock gimmicks (face recognition unlock was introduced ~3 years ago if my memory is correct), and all of that usually well before an iPhone ever did; the iPhone's only compelling feature is that the stock software is kept pretty slim (but even that is slowly slipping away as Apple loses focus). What Android hardware severely lacks is manufacturers that aren't bound and determined to destroy their products with shitware. It doesn't help that the platform isn't obnoxiously marketed as a social/economic statement, either.
      • Gorbzel 8y ago
        Just completely delusional. The iPhone’s CPU is literally years ahead of comparable Android devices, with today’s flagship Android devices comparable to an iPhone 6s in terms of performance. One or two other devices may have a camera that matches Apple in terms of a spec here and there, but iPhone is still the gold standard. The fact you call Samsung and others’ garbage face unlocking from 3 years ago gimmicks might be the most accurate thing in your post, but those never worked reliably and in no way compare to Face ID. And then you finish by noting that most Android OEMs require you to use their shit version of the OS. Well then, real convincing argument when the most critical part of any computer is garbage. This place is insane...
        • damnyou 8y ago
          Try using a Pixel 2 and a 6s side by side. Actually, try using a Pixel 2 and an iPhone 8 side by side. It'll be pretty obvious which one feels faster, and it's not the iPhone.
        • cageface 8y ago
          The Pixel 2 camera absolutely destroys the iPhone X. I have both and I've done a lot of side by side comparisons and my results jibe with all the online reviews that pick the Pixel. Apple is way behind here. And that's on the back camera. On the front facing camera the quality gap is even bigger.
      • 8y ago
    • bashinator 8y ago
      I loathe faceID. I cannot use my phone at a table without having to pick it up every five minutes.
  • whatever_dude 8y ago
    I don't think that's fair to say. Their hardware is consistently top of the line. They make mistakes like this, but they've been doing it since _forever_ once they get cocky (remember the cube? the puck?). But usually they get back on track after a while. To me, other than raw specs (like, say, screen density), they're still winning more frq8 then not. (And I say this as someone who avoids Apple like the plague).
  • aroman 8y ago
    > Since then, Apple has been behind the curve on every thing. There are many examples to the contrary. Apple's mobile chips are still way ahead of the competition. AirPods are the gold standard for that product category. FaceID had a substantial lead on the Android world for about a year.
• phinnaeus 8y ago
  Realistically, I just can't really see Apple fixing this by introducing a new keyboard design that's any thicker. As much as I would love to hear "We've heard your feedback on the keyboards and we've made some drastic changes to address them in our new Macbook Pro", it just doesn't seem like their style. What do others think they're going to do for their next release of laptops?
  • acomjean 8y ago
    I think they'll gradually improve the keyboard. It won't be great but it will be good enough. like the "don't hold it that way" antenna gate problem and the phone bending problems.. They'll fix.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_6#Chassis_bending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_6#Chassis_bending Honestly, its hard to get off the mac ecosystem though. I have a macbook pro, and am starting to look at linux laptops. The options don't seem great. older Apple laptops are pretty well built, so hopefully it'll last a couple more years...
    • ngngngng 8y ago
      Only thing I'm considering is a thinkpad x1 carbon. But the last time I tried putting linux on a laptop I had a few issues submitted to the linux kernel and still didn't have the laptop working perfectly (Asus zenbook) within a week I returned it and bought a MacBook pro. Might be time for another go.
      • wutbrodo 8y ago
        I believe Thinkpads are famously easy to make work with Linux. I had one in college (a decade ago) and an x1 carbon when I was at Google (several years ago) and both of them were excellent (though the latter obviously would've had any kinks ironed out by the Goobuntu team). My last couple laptops had better hardware (for my needs) than ThinkPads or Macbooks, but the occasional compatibility issue is enough that I'm thinking about switching back to Thinkpads.
• phnofive 8y ago
  Who is Apple engaging in design anorexia for? Does it drive sales? Couldn’t some other stat be used to pad their presentations? Any thickness less than an inch is fine with me. I’m not concerned with whether my laptop fits in an envelope.
  • phinnaeus 8y ago
    I think it's just an easy thing for them to market. All other things being equal, people love "thinner and lighter." The problem is things aren't always otherwise equal.
  • derefr 8y ago
    I don't know why so many people are under the impression that they do thinness for thinness sake. They do thinness for lightness sake. The lighter your laptop (or tablet, or phone), the more you'll choose to not leave it behind but rather to just lug it around with you, and so the more places you'll have it and the more it'll be there to aid your productivity in random situations. [Also, for phones and tablets specifically, the longer you'll be willing to hold it up to your face to stare at it before putting it away due to the "gorilla arm" feeling.] Sometimes I actually carry my MacBook around in my backpack when I'm just downtown for a meet-up and have no plans to do any work. I get it out for the same reasons you might pull out an external Bluetooth keyboard for a smartphone—e.g., if you want to type a long response to an email, or need to type a snippet of something that's awful to type on a phone keyboard, like code. Except that this Bluetooth keyboard happens to have its own computer attached to it. (I don't use it at home, though; at home, I use a Hackintosh with a real keyboard. Which happens to be an Apple Magic Keyboard 2 with the exact same butterfly key-mech in it that the MacBook and rMBP have. But Magic Keyboard 2s aren't getting gummed up left and right, because the butterfly key-mech itself actually works fine when it's given adequate travel height. It makes a huge difference; you wouldn't even think it's the same key-mech!)
    • sohkamyung 8y ago
      > They do thinness for lightness sake. Would you consider getting something like a LG Gram 15" then? It's thin and light but appears highly repairable [1] [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/LG+Gram+15-Inch+Repairability+Assessment/79142 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/LG+Gram+15-Inch+Repairability+A...
• wpdev_63 8y ago
  Classic case of why business managers shouldn't be directing design of a product. Business managers sees .2mm shaved off the thickness of macbook pro to 'justify' the premium cost of it over other laptops while a developer/pro user of the laptop would increase the thickness to gain battery and maybe mechanical/mesh hybrid keys... I would be more than happy to pay for a pro version of the current macbook pro. EDIT---- Instead of apple doing crappy warranty repairs to make up for their crappy design, they should give us mechanical/mesh hybrid keys and shoot the person who thought .2mm was worth such a shit keyboard.... cradling on my 2016 macbook pro
  • cududa 8y ago
    No. Absolutely wrong assessment. This is a design team running amok after their own goals
    • partiallypro 8y ago
      Thinner for the sake of being thin has been an Apple problem for a while now.
      • xellisx 8y ago
        Just another way to impose impossible standards. =)
      • spiritcat 8y ago
        Thinner for the sake of making other laptops look thick and crappy.
        • partiallypro 8y ago
          Maybe at some point that was true, it's not true anymore. Unless you're getting a gaming laptop, pretty much every ultrabook is only mildly thicker than the MacBook Air or Pro, some of them are thinner.
    • spraak 8y ago
• danjayh 8y ago
  Glad to see him mention the Samsung debacle as well. When my Note 4 finally gave in to the eMMC problem earlier this year, I upgraded to a new-old-stock LG V20 instead of the latest greatness, because it was the last flagship made with a user replaceable battery. Over my Note 4's 3 1/2 year tenure, I replaced the battery annually. Each time, the battery life performance was restored to what I remembered from when the phone was new. I don't know what I'm going to do when the V20 dies, but it'll be a sad day indeed. I just have such a hard time believing that I'm the only one who wants a rugged (plastic or metal), repairable phone (the V20 can be [i]screwed[/i] apart ... no glue here) with a user-replaceable battery.
  • dannyw 8y ago
    Even the iPhone battery is user replaceable. Yes, it involves unscrewing things, but you can do it with a tutorial and $5 worth of tools from eBay.
    • tedmiston 8y ago
      "User replaceable" is kind of a stretch given the amount of disassembly/reassembly required to change the battery. I don't think it can be considered user replaceable is if requires something 90%+ of users aren't comfortable doing vs phones where the battery pops in and out.
  • tcarn 8y ago
    Similar boat with an LG V10, I Upgraded to a Moto z force that has Moto mods which include an extended battery, been really good for me.
• codeisawesome 8y ago
  Is the title meant to be a joke? - Apple as a company does not have a single point of failure. - Arguably the iPhone could be called that; if they stopped selling MacBooks next year it still wouldn’t be their “downfall” (not that I like this state of affairs as I like MacBooks). I don’t really hate the butterfly keys either. I’ve been using it for over a year now on the pro, and I don’t know if it’s the second iteration, but it hasn’t failed me yet. I will agree that the first iteration was awful, my “new MacBook” keyboard broke because I made the mistake of taking it to the beach.
  • tptacek 8y ago
    From what I can tell, the newer iteration of the keyboard fails just as often as the old one. My sample size isn't huge (mid-high single digits on both iterations), but the result is consistent.
  • gh02t 8y ago
    The article mentions it at the end, by "downfall" they don't mean Apple is going to fold. They mean that Apple making such a difficult to repair laptop is now going to cost them a ton of money because the "keyboard" repair requires replacing the entire top half of the machine due to the design. The article argues that if the design had been easier to repair they would be able to do this otherwise minor repair much more cheaply. I think that's a fair claim, even if the title is a bit overblown. Apple is paying the price for what is probably too big of a compromise in the design of the laptops.
  • RobLach 8y ago
    Apple losing the image of quality engineering will effect their entire product range, with consumers less willing to pay a premium and second guessing engineering achievements by keeping in mind side effects. If the next iPhone is 20 grams lighter but I can’t make phone calls after 6 months, will I buy one over a equally powered Android $300 less?
    • throwaway5752 8y ago
      I think the story of Coach (now Tapestry, ticker TPR) should be the ghost story they tell at every Apple corporate retreat. What do they say, "years to build and seconds to destroy"?
• ethagknight 8y ago
  I picked up my repaired late-2016 15” mbp this morning from warranty repair (replacement). The keyboard feels 100% better. Apple replaced my top case, logic board, and display system for free, out of warranty. I was very concerned about this computer’s longevity, I’ve even ordered a Razer mx cherry keyboard to use when at my desk to take some workload off apple’s questionable design decision, but the replacement keyboard feels much better. I want to be clear, my desire is not for repairability, like iFixit wants, but for durability and For Apple to stand behind it. The MacBook Pro is a fabulous computer, the keyboard and touchbar were mistakes, but I think they have fixed 1 of the 2.
  • eslaught 8y ago
    Can you describe what's better about it? Is it merely fixed or is it somehow better than when it was new?
    • ethagknight 8y ago
      When I first got my new computer back in late 2016, the keys had a distinctively inconsistent “clack” that would sorta come and go, and it felt inconsistent, maybe a subtly different amount of pressure required for different keys in different parts of the key. It’s hard for me to pinpoint it, but I’d say that the keyboard feels more consistent across the board. I’m all of 12 hours in on it, but I’m very hopeful. If anything, there is defiantly an improvement to the finger-feel with this new keyboard.
  • yourduskquibble 8y ago
    Have you researched Stockholm syndrome?
    • ethagknight 8y ago
      Ha you got downvoted but I admit that I sincerely want this computer to be fixed, having invested deeply in the Apple ecosystem. No question there is bias, but my experience also covers Acer and HP computers at work, which have real shortcomings, incomparable to my mbp. For what it’s worth to your snark, I used a Linux system as a pinch hitter while mine was in the shop, and very much enjoyed Linux but for the crappy machine. A comparable i7, SSD, longBattLife,retina quality laptop is always going to be $$$, so go with what you know, right? I’ve been tempted by the Surface Book 2, but since it costs about the same for comparable systems, go with what you know!
• Nerdfest 8y ago
  "The new notebook was universally applauded by tech pundits". Riiiiiight.
  • saagarjha 8y ago
    The article was referring to the 2012 Retina MacBook Pro.
    • solomatov 8y ago
      IMO, 2012 Retina and its updates were masterpieces of hardware design. I wish they continue producing them with more up to date hardware.
      • foxh0und 8y ago
        Loved my 2012 Retina. It served me all through a Comp Sci degree, and has now gone to friend who is still studying.
        • syshax 8y ago
          Still using mine ($1999 model) and having a hard time justifying a replacement - especially with all the consternation about the keyboard. I'm thinking about upgrading when they announce a 6 core, but I'd like to see the keyboard addressed - and a 4k retina screen would be a nice touch.
      • berti 8y ago
        Mine is still going strong. Second Apple product I ever bought (first was an iPod many, many years back), and since I've been a bit of a convert! The battery only lasts about 2-3 hours now, so I replaced it with a new model last year. It did have issues with one of the keys but it seems to have come right. I much prefer the 4 USB-C ports over the array of various different ports on the 2012 rMBP, especially because I can plug the charger into either side, but I do miss magsafe a little.
• hsienmaneja 8y ago
  Apple, please put back in full size up and down arrow keys
  • pqdbr 8y ago
    My God, this, 1000x times this. I've owned a Macbook Pro 2017 for 6 months now and still manage to get a miss 40% of the time. It's maddening.
    • matheussampaio 8y ago
      I've been using mine daily (more than 6h per day), for 10 months, and I still miss most of the times!
  • el_benhameen 8y ago
    My god, yes. My hit rate on the half height up/down keys can’t be better than 30%
  • sgillen 8y ago
    Interesting, I actually like the half arrow key thing, I often use the arrow key with my pinkie, makes it easy to switch between up and down. To each their own I guess.
  • blahblahblogger 8y ago
    Oh yes, I'm happy to see others mentioning the half size up and down. Even after a year with this keyboard this still trips me up.
  • sorahn 8y ago
    It’s not so much the half keys that makes it obnoxious, but having the left and right keys be full height, and not having a gap to orient my fingers in the keys means I’m often pressing “shift” with my middle finger thinking it’s “up”.
  • bluthru 8y ago
    I never use the right shift anyway. (It's farther away than the left shift.)
• dottrap 8y ago
  I recently was fixing a relative's early gen Macbook Pro which had the same keyboard as the Powerbook. The keyboard felt soooo nice. I really miss that keyboard.
• solomatov 8y ago
  I was absolutely ok with repairability of 2013 pro models. But what they did with new keyboard design is awful. I write this now from my Dell XPS 13, not from my MacBook Pro different models of which I used for > 5 years.
  • malloryerik 8y ago
    Writing from my 2017 MacBook Pro. Apart from the keys being louder than before and my nagging fear of an errant crumb or cat hair I'm happy, typing is crisp and maybe faster for me than on any other keyboard. I move my hands less. In comparison my regular Mac keys now feel loose and smooshy, almost as if they'd been produced by the Haribo Gummy Bear factory. (Not that this is a horrible feeling. I miss gummy bears; can't they make them out of xylitol or something?)
    • dguaraglia 8y ago
      Have you had issues with OS X? My fiancée's laptop needs to be rebooted every time it goes to sleep, and both her and my own older (2015) MacBook Pro want to boot from the recovery partition every time. It's a pain in the ass and a terrible degradation of experience.
      • malloryerik 8y ago
        That sounds awful, but no, I haven't had that kind of problem before. Sounds like you might want to think of reinstalling/upgrading the OS? I've never heard of that issue though, sorry.
    • always_good 8y ago
      My girlfriend and I bought 2017 MBPs at the same time. She barely uses hers. I use mine daily and heavily. When I use hers now, I'm startled by how crisp and clicky her keys are compared to mine. Not to mention my absolutely failing keyboard (many caps coming right off). But I'd say the new MBP keyboard felt amazing for about one month. Now it's the worst keyboard I've ever used in my life.
    • 8y ago
• bluepeter 8y ago
  This is what happens when you do user testing and the users you primarily test are only internal folks. Apple, next time: take your prototype, throw a handful of fine sand on the keyboard and shake... if it can't be fixed by customers (via canister air or removing/cleaning the keys), then rework. P.S., I am tying this now on this absolute crap keyboard with multiple letters sticky and repeating.
• yawn_010101 8y ago
  Having interfaced with Apple in a different way (apart from owning a new MBP and an iPhone X) I'd say the issue is, and continues to be, growing pains. They're certainly losing the lead in software engineer talent (giving it away to whom, I'm not sure). But the single most horrible experience I've had with Apple in the last year was trying to get software published on the App Store. That's a department that's so large that it's become a classic bureaucracy -- middle managers run amok, pettiness, lack of professionalism, etc. I was trying to publish a piece of software using their less extortionate subscription options and I was told by a young woman manager that I would have to have feature X in order to qualify. I added feature X in a couple days and got back to her. She was surprised (disappointed?) and then told me I'd have to have feature X + feature Y in order to qualify. I have a couple of contacts from the "good old days" and sent a very angry email. Middle manager woman disappeared, her boss called me and apologized within a few minutes. If I didn't have that contact I probably wouldn't have gotten past her. What has happened to Apple that their dev teams work against devs, compile times (this is 2018 remember) are now counted in minutes for small projects, my MBP crashes when plugging in an external monitor, etc? They've grown too fast. My contact told me that their App Store team is now interfacing with over 2 million developers. How do you grow to accommodate that? Now, what is the answer to all of this? Fix the marketing driven culture. Thinner isn't better. The number of apps on the app store isn't a meaningful metric. New languages are cool only if you can actually pull them off. Etc.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • sandmansandine 8y ago
    Serious question: Why didn't you mention the genders of the the people from "the "good old days"" but had to say over and over again that you were dealing with "Middle manager woman"
    • herpderpsing 8y ago
      Take your timewasting elsewhere.
    • 8y ago
• spyckie2 8y ago
  This is NOT a big issue for consumers. Apple is great at keeping customers happy, their 4 year warranty extension for replacing the keyboard shows this. This IS a business issue. It has a quantifiable effect on profit margins for Apple's macbook, and I would look at it as an investor and see if it effects Apple's valuation in the short and long run. The Note 7 is a fantastic comparison - the complete recall did not have to happen but did because of design choices from Samsung engineers. It could have been a $200 million dollar issue instead of a $5 billion dollar one. Similarly, these keyboards did not have to be that expensive to repair or be so prone to damage, but being that way has a snowball effect on repair/maintenance/warranty. It's also a design decision that they're kind of stuck with. They are not going to go back to their original keyboards (unless they release a mac book pro classic, which I would personally be estatic about) - and so the increase repair costs cutting into their margins is a challenge for them to solve going forward (especially since the brittle-ness is because of the thin design).
  • Karunamon 8y ago
    They’d get a lot less cynicism and a lot more kudos if they didn’t outright deny the problem exists until PR is so against them that they have no choice. They did it with the classic iPhone 4 antenna issue, they did it with the battery throttling, they did it with the keyboards. It’s a pattern by now.
  • kalleboo 8y ago
    > This is NOT a big issue for consumers. Apple is great at keeping customers happy I'm not happy if my laptop is out of commission for a week once every 6-12 months
  • manigandham 8y ago
    Warranty and free repairs do not mean that it doesn't take time and effort to actually get done. Consumers would very much prefer to not have problems than to constantly get them fixed, even if free.
  • yesimahuman 8y ago
    Not mentioned in this article is how many people also dislike the feel of the keyboard. Add that to risking an out of commission work machine and it’s a big deal for consumers.
• speeq 8y ago
  My 2015 MBP is affected by an earlier production issue where interactions with the keyboard when opening / closing the lid damages the coating of the display (just lookup “Staingate” to see pics). Maybe the thinner keys were ironically meant as a fix for this production issue in order to save them money on screen replacements.
• manigandham 8y ago
  Apple biggest UX failures always stem from putting form before function. There is a lower limit to thinness/lightness before consumers just don't care, and it was passed long ago. There was great progress made with the unibody Macbook Pros and the Macbook Airs but these latest models are so thin that it's actually annoying and leads to issues like poor battery life, lack of repair-ability, and malfunctioning keyboards. Isn't better usability actually more of a luxury then simple aesthetics? Based on the timing, this seems like a train set in motion by Steve Jobs but he passed away and now nobody wants to recognize that it's way off course and needs a correction.
  • blahblahblogger 8y ago
    The touch bar is another example of this. I always hit the wrong keys, even after a year I'll end up hitting ~/` instead of the escape key, I routing hit "mute" instead of volume down (or I'll hit up instead).
    • bonesss 8y ago
      Also: the totally different bar UI you are exposed to when in sleep mode. I understand why it has to be so, security wise, for application functions there but it'd be nice if the sound controls were consistent...
  • wvenable 8y ago
    The iOS UI is similarly crippled. I got my parents an iPad as they were moving countries and needed a small portable device that needed no maintenance. To Apple's credit, the iPad is basically impossible to screw up software-wise. But even the initial setup UI places form over function. Basically there is no way to tell what is a button and sometimes you have to click the word at the top to move on and sometimes the word on the bottom. It's completely bonkers.
    • acqq 8y ago
      > Basically there is no way to tell what is a button Since Jony Ive decides alone. Under Jobs the buttons were drawn in the UI.
• matte_black 8y ago
  The solution to this while keeping the same form factor is to create a macbook pro that is waterproof so that a keyboard can be washed out if any dust has accumulated below the keys.
• jordache 8y ago
  I'm picturing one of those immensely obnoxious apple videos where ive is talking about some crap about frivolous keyboard superlatives, with some cgi fly by of a keyboard... uh.. such crap.
  • asafira 8y ago
    It's simply magical.
• dingo_bat 8y ago
  > In the meantime, let’s give some other companies a shot. Dell and HP have gorgeous, reliable, repairable flagship laptops that are getting rave reviews. Right now, I think they’ve done more to earn your business than Apple has. The laptop mentioned in the "rave review" link is an elitebook 840 g5. I have been using the 840 g1 as my primary laptop for the last 4 years and it really is a sturdy device. The hardware is flawless, I haven't had a single issue with it. However, do yourself a favor and wipe it clean the moment you buy it, and install a fresh copy of windows. HP's added software is literally poison.
  • rmrfrmrf 8y ago
    Windows is so terrible, though. I could never go back.
    • repsilat 8y ago
      Twoish years ago I moved from Linux full time to Windows at home and whatever the Apple OS is called at work. The Apple one was a pain. Command line tools are almost but not quite right (zcat in particular just doesn't work) and I found the user experience pretty annoying at first but passable after that. Still don't really understand how "installing software" is supposed to go, and lots of struggle against Homebrew and lots of other software packaging. Windows had WSL when I got my laptop. Real Linux command-line, nice. Filesystem performance was crap, and they didn't have postgres at first, but it was probably a better dev environment than my Mac, with one exception: no Docker in Windows 10 home. Explorer started getting a bit slow and unstable after a while, but I was on preview releases. A couple of months ago I quit my job, and yesterday I formatted my home laptop to install Linux again (decided to put my hobby project onto a Docker-heavy workflow) and oh my God it's lovely. Installing packages is fast again, software compatibility goes without saying, and Unity was surprisingly pleasant (though I did drop it for i3 because I'm a masochist.) Hard to say how much of that experience is "Linux is nice" and how much is "I'm a Linux person" though.
      • jonathankoren 8y ago
        > The Apple one was a pain. Command line tools are almost but not quite right (zcat in particular just doesn't work) That's because it's BSD, and are you sure you don't want gzcat?
• ashishb 8y ago
  I wrote about my experience while looking for a personal laptop in 2013: https://ashishb.net/tech/the-weird-state-of-laptop-industry/ https://ashishb.net/tech/the-weird-state-of-laptop-industry/ Little has changed since then. There is still a considerable gap, and no one is building a developer laptop. What surprises me is the amount of energy Google is pouring into Chromebooks, they could have made an excellent (GCP-integrated?) developer laptop instead. For backend engineers to front-end engineers to mobile developers, it could have become the defacto developer machine - provided the Wi-Fi, battery, and sleep/wake-up handling is as good as Macbooks.
  • nixpulvis 8y ago
    My thinkpad x1 carbon running Linux feels like a pretty sexy developer machine.
    • ashishb 8y ago
      You installed Linux yourself, right? How's the battery life? And Wi-Fi connectivity when SNR is high?
      • nixpulvis 8y ago
        Yep, I'm running Arch. Battery is great. On my work laptop (the 6th gen) I easily get >7 hours if I'm not doing things in the browser too much. Yes I know there are a million factors, and my general use case isn't the same as everyone elses. Let's put it this way, the way I use my previous mac and my new thinkpad, the thinkpad lasts around 1.5x as long (sometimes more). In terms of WiFi. I haven't noticed it being worse than my mac, but I also don't think I've ever dug deep enough into this kind of thing on either platform to really say. Every time I've spent any energy looking into WiFi it's been on Linux.
  • cjmoran 8y ago
    Google is working on making Chromebooks more developer-friendly. Some of them support running full desktop Linux apps now, but it's still in the experimental stages and I wouldn't recommend buying one for that specific feature until it's more mature. That said, I've been doing light webdev work on a Chromebook using Crouton (to run desktop Linux alongside ChromeOS, with seamless switching) and aside from difficulties with the MicroSD slot and apt-get on Ubuntu it's been quite nice. Getting solid, first-party Linux desktop app support would make Chromebooks a serious contender in the "cheap dev laptop for light work" space, and I think Google is working toward that. Obviously, the hardware is going to preclude you from doing any serious heavy lifting, but I'm pretty excited to see what they come up with in another year or two. The battery life on these things is fantastic, plus some of them can also run Android apps. Crouton installation instructions can be found here: https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton A tip: while you can find ARM distributions of Linux distros and packages, it'll make your life much easier to get a Chromebook with an x86 processor.
• Exuma 8y ago
  Hopefully they don't get rid of the butterfly keyboard and simply improve it. I love this Keyboard
• FullyFunctional 8y ago
  hum I'm been ticked since they cancelled the 17" MBP and I am more than a little annoyed that I lost physical esc and function keys (Yes, I used them - in Emacs). It bad enough that I'm now spending a non trivial amazing amount of time on non-Apple laptops, but soo many apps have no acceptable alternative on Linux, sadly (I buy Linux version whenever I can).
• deathanatos 8y ago
  > [Apple quietly announced][1] that they were extending the warranty on their flagship laptop’s keyboard by four years. No, they didn't. If you read the very source the article cites for this, you find, > The program covers eligible MacBook and MacBook Pro models for 4 years after the first retail sale of the unit. The original warranty was 1 year[2]; this is a three year extension. "Extending by 4 years" is just too good to be true. Although, I had no idea the warranty on MBPs was so bad; a well built machine should trivially last a year. And now that I Google around, this doesn't seem to really be unusual on Apple's part. My last laptop had a 4 year warranty, and it lasted about that long. But my current laptop only had a 1 year standard, and I had forgotten that I paid $80 to extend it for 3 years. Apple seems to offer an extended warranty ("AppleCare+") but wants $270 for it. [1]: https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m... [2]: https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/ https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/
  • tedmiston 8y ago
    FWIW AppleCare for this price of machine has been the same duration and roughly the same price since forever, even before MBPs. What they have quietly changed is now you can only buy it in the first 60 days instead of the first year which was a big surprise to me buying a new MBP. It had been the first year for a very, very long time — since inception IIRC. Of course I learned of this change after I'd already had my machine for more than 60 days. :/ There are a few ways to get it slightly cheaper like F&F discount. You also used to be able to get it cheaper from a third party store like B&H but it seems they've cut back on this recently.
    • benguild 8y ago
      Were you unable to find a boxed retail copy of the old version online?
      • tedmiston 8y ago
        Looks like there are a few but not many on eBay [1]. I wonder if one can still activate the legacy AppleCare (non +) on newer models purchased after they discontinued it. [1]: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=applecare+plan+macbook+pro&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_oac=1&LH_TitleDesc=0 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=applecare+pla...
• bproven 8y ago
  Drop in a thinkpad keyboard (best in the business IMO) - problem solved ;) Now if I could get a laptop with a thinkpad kb, apple trackpad I'd be set
• dev_dull 8y ago
  > In the meantime, let’s give some other companies a shot. Dell and HP have gorgeous, reliable, repairable flagship laptops that are getting rave reviews. Right now, I think they’ve done more to earn your business than Apple has. But when these laptops have an error or break, will their manufacturers extend an extra 4 years to the warranty? Probably not. And that’s why I keep coming back to Apple hardware. The longevity of it is unparalleled.
• blhack 8y ago
  I wish apple would just make a line of laptops aimed at professionals. They could give us back a real keyboard, give us back USB ports, give us back swappable batteries, and give us back SD card readers (although this could be microsd at this point). They could even call it "macbook professional" or something like that. /s There is just absolutely no reason for these changes. The lack of USB ports on this laptop is something that I absolutely have not gotten used to. While I've been able to make due with the keyboard, I dug my old 2013 MBP out today, and instead of feeling bulky and old, it just felt good. If the screen hadn't become so badly delaminated, I'd probably switch back to it full time and just eat the ~$2300 loss on this thing (or maybe make it a desktop?).
  • toomanybeersies 8y ago
    A MicroSD reader would be fairly useless. Outside of phones, MicroSD isn't really used, and nobody uses MicroSD for transferring files. SD cards are still the standard format for cameras, which are the main use case for SD card slots.
    • 88 8y ago
      Every SD card I’ve bought in the last few years has just been a microSD card with full size adapter.
      • fooker 8y ago
        Cameras need fast full size SD cards.
        • sneak 8y ago
          My full frame RX1Rii shoots 20+MP raw just fine onto micro SD.
          • petepete 8y ago
            All will, the underlying technology is the same and the 'micro' just refers to the plastic shell; the adapter is just a spacer with electrical contacts.
• ken_m 8y ago
  In my org already 4 laptop keyboards are faulty within just 1 year.
• ken_m 8y ago
  In my org, within 1 year, we have found 4 faulty Macbook Pro laptop keyboards (2016 15 inch Model). Cost of replacement - $750 per keyboard. Just ridiculous.
  • tedmiston 8y ago
    We have no idea if your org is 4 people or 4 million people to draw any conclusions from the absolute numbers ;)
• majestik 8y ago
  "engineers its own downfall" Hyperbole much? TLDR the new MacBook Pro keyboard doesn't repair as well as the old keyboard: -- In our eyes, the new design was a repairability flop. We downgraded Apple from a seven-out-of-ten to a two. -- We're calling this a downfall now? I feel like we just got trolled.
  • exergy 8y ago
    Did you read the rest of the article? It's very well explained, and makes some really good points. Of course they're biased towards one factor above all else: repairability. It's right there in the name of the company! But calling this a troll post isn't justified.
• bengrunfeld 8y ago
  Last year, I started work for a new company and they supplied me with a BRAND NEW Macbook Pro with Butterfly keyboard. 30 minutes after opening, the 'e' key jammed, and kept jamming on and off.... Meanwhile, my 2015 Macbook Pro with Scissor Keyboard still works beautifully, having NEVER suffered a key jam, despite me being very mean to it and dropping something on it most lunches.
• dleslie 8y ago
  I like machines that are built to take a beating. My penultimate laptop was an HP Mini 101; I only replaced it on a whim, and still use it from time to time. The keys have been worn to be smooth, concave and most are missing the printed text. When I last opened it up to add an SSD a suprising amount of sand came pouring out; having been taken to many beaches, tossed in bags, and generally used outdoors it had accumulated a huge amount of extra material. I now use a Thinkpad X140e; it's got a rubberized shock-protected shell and a reinforced body. The keys are in a similar state, the body is cracked and taped together from wear, and it's fallen down several flights of stairs and fallen from great heights. (Thanks, kids!) Too many liquids have spilled on it. The combined cost of both these machines and the replacement batteries, new RAM, larger disks that I've added to them is less than that of any mac; and they've taken a hell of a beating. Running Linux, of course.
  • Symbiote 8y ago
    > Running Linux, of course. I wish more people would. That's the best way to get any issues fixed, whether by filing bug reports, writing up a workaround on a wiki or Stackoverflow to help others, or fixing the bug. It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish. We expect this for our servers, but ignore it for laptops and desktops. If developers continue like this, then users will be corralled further into walled gardens of pay-only or data-leaking software. HN is outraged when farmers aren't allowed to repair their John Deere tractors, yet the majority choose even more restricted OSs for work and personal use. (This comment written in Firefox on KDE (Kubuntu) with a 4K screen, all working very nicely.)
    • fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      And why do you think that a lot of people who are painfully aware of all the issues you mention still refuse to use Linux on a laptop while happily using it on servers? There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. Many specific issues can be fixed if you put in the effort, but on almost every dist-upgrade something essential breaks and you're back to square one. And the response to these issues has always been a mixture of disbelief, denial, accusations of incompetence and pointers to ridiculously convoluted and brittle workarounds. There are bound to be people on every message board claiming to have run Linux for years if not decades without any of the issues I'm seeing on a daily basis and have been seeing for decades on scores of different laptops. So where do we stand on this? Will we ever get out of this unproductive loop of claims and counter claims while an oligopoly of corporations builds ever higher walls around more and more restrictive gardens?
• bbrian 8y ago
  Since the battery is necessarily replaced when the keyboard is, I'm hoping my keyboard breaks after 3.5 years so I get a free battery replacement.
• bvm 8y ago
  the key on my mcbook ir no longer works, which is rel pin in the ss.
  • dredmorbius 8y ago
    I've been known to ... remap various keys in situations like that.
• erikb 8y ago
  The whole analysis loses a lot of it's weight if one considers that since around 2010 companies actively focus on reducing(!) repairability. For the producer it's a desired feature. And the market doesn't seem to care that much. Yes, people complain, but then they still go and buy a new $1k smart phone every year or two. At least in a professional environment they do the same with their $1.5k Macbook Pros. Hell, some people buy a new one, because they don't like the stickers on top of their old one anymore.
• nkkollaw 8y ago
  Personally, my MBP's keyboard failing and Apple Store saying it wasn't a known problem made me switch to Lenovo (after 5 years with Apple). I bought a 5kg-laptop that I bought with HDD and 8GB RAM and I upgraded myself to 24GB RAM and SSD alongside the HDD. It has Philips screws.
• ychombinator 8y ago
  Have three of these Macs, apart from the occasional stuck key which releases when you tap the back of the Mac they've been solid. I couldn't go back to a normal keyboard on a laptop now, the reduced range of travel on the butterfly keyboards takes a while to get used to but it's amazing once you're used to it you just don't want to mash keys through more than 1 mm of travel to type a letter anymore
• tracer4201 8y ago
  I honestly don't understand all these quality sacrifices just to make things thinner. It makes the product actually feel somewhat cheap and brittle. The same thing confuses me with smartphones. Everyone keeps making these bacteria and finger print magnets thinner... the minute you drop it, it's shattered or unuseable... and so then you're buying a case to protect it from scratches and shatter... so what's the point of making it thinner in the first place? Gimmicks IMO just to sell things year over year without adding real value or actual features.
  • blauditore 8y ago
    > and so then you're buying a case to protect it from scratches and shatter... so what's the point of making it thinner in the first place? I agree, also in terms of material. I'd love to buy a plastic phone with some bezel that doesn't shatter easily. The Nokia Lumias a couple years back (e.g. the Lumia 800[0]) were good-looking and super robust. But manufacturers obviously don't have much incentive to make hardware more durable, unless customers explicitly look out for that. And currently, many people tend to buy (high-end) phones rather for prestige reasons than actual usefulness. [0]: http://phonesdata.com/files/models/Nokia-Lumia-800-307.jpg http://phonesdata.com/files/models/Nokia-Lumia-800-307.jpg
    • Lukas_Skywalker 8y ago
      I (still) own a Lumia 830 from back then. It's incredible what my phone endured (drops from a car roof, down a few stairs, even a short dive in a kitchen sink), and I don't really know why the thing is so sturdy since it truly looks good. I recently bought a spare display for about 40$ and a battery for 20$, just so I can replace them if anything should happen in the future.
      • blauditore 8y ago
        > and I don't really know why the thing is so sturdy since it truly looks good. One factor is that the cover glass doesn't go all the way out to edges and corners. This leaves some "crumble zone", as phones by the laws of probability most often land on edges. What do the corners of your phone look like? I bet they're dented, at least that used to be the case for me.
• sneak 8y ago
  > In the meantime, let’s give some other companies a shot. Dell and HP have gorgeous, reliable, repairable flagship laptops that are getting rave reviews. Right now, I think they’ve done more to earn your business than Apple has. ...that don’t run macOS. Not a chance. Do hardware people not realize that running windows or linux (chromebooks excepted) is a usability or malware nightmare (or both)?
• no1youknowz 8y ago
  Apple. This issue is seriously simple. Take the previous design, you know the one from late 2012 to 2015. If you must (sigh), take out the SD card, HDMI, USB A, MagSafe and replace with USB-C. I don't know who suggested this, but whatever. Don't add in a touch bar. Don't add in an over sized touchpad. Leave the keyboard alone. The layout of the model is amazing. I purchased a late 2012 in Jan '13. It's been my daily driver for 5 years now, without a single issue and it's an amazing piece of equipment. It allows me to just get on with my work, rather than focusing on the issues with the OS (looking at you Windows 10). Want to make the product much better? Upgrade: - the screen to 4k - the memory to 32GB - the SSD speed and give me options of 1TB and 2TB. - the CPU to the latest i7 and more cores the better. Listen, you can even charge $5k for the privilege. I don't care at this point. My needs for it just working and allowing me to work without the issues of running Windows 10 are the only things that matter to me. ------- Ok, I understand. We are negotiating here. - $6k... - $7k... - $8k... - $9k... - $10k... ? Sure, I'll pay $10k for a PRO laptop. One that lasts 5+ years. I'm happy to depreciate it over a period of time, because for me. It's not an ACCESSORY. It's a workhorse! I really hope someone at apple listens. You guys had an awesome laptop. Then you made it crappy. -------- I'm literally praying to "Lord Jobs" on the other side, that I don't run into any issues for at least another 3 years and Mojave is my last OS it seems. I'm STILL on El Capitan!
  • tsenkov 8y ago
    +1 :) I use the exact same machine and I simply don't want to upgrade it with the current options. I don't even need anything higher resolution (retina is great), honestly. In fact, I don't even need a more performant (or more cores on my) processor (my quad-core i7 works great with everything), or better GPU - all I need is: - 64GB RAM; - 2TB SSD; - better camera.
  • testplzignore 8y ago
    1. Create good product. 2. Gain market share. 3. Gradually make product worse without losing market share. 4. Make product good again with giant price increase. 5. PROFIT! Apple is stuck on step 3. Either they don't know that step 4 exists, or they think they can squeeze more juice out of step 3, or they don't have the technical ability to do step 4.
• vivan 8y ago
  I was one of those annoying Apple evangelists for years. My 2010 MacBook Pro was my baby and I loved it. Eventually it got to the point where I had to replace it (after 7 years!) and when I went to look around at the new MacBook Pro range, I was so disgusted by all the problems that I ended up getting a Dell XPS 13. I consider my original MBP and the following models to be some of the best laptops you could buy at the time. If I could buy a 2015 MBP with a modern processor I would do it in a heartbeat. Meanwhile I wouldn't recommend the current range of Apple laptops to anyone.
  • adulakis 8y ago
    Me too, would immidiately buy 2015 mbp if i could get it with the ssd, memory and cpu of my 2017 mbp!
  • ryenus 8y ago
    The 2015 MBP is still available, though not that obviously: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/
    • jillesvangurp 8y ago
      Yes but at that price, it's a very bad deal. You might as well buy a refurbished second hand model.
    • Elect2 8y ago
      No it's not available. If you click the "Buy" button, it will redirect you to the newest macbook page
      • kalleboo 8y ago
        On the page you're redirected to, select 15" and then scroll down a bit and it's there. They're trying their best to hide it, but it's there.
  • rikkus 8y ago
    Just curious: What's different about the processors in the current MBPs vs those in the 2015s in terms of how it affects your work - or whatever else you're using your MBP for?
• jarym 8y ago
  Stupid Apple - I blame Schiller. They won’t support 32Gb ram because it might decrease battery life and requires them to reengineer the logic board but they’re totally cool with a fragile ass keyboard GLUED to a battery! Really there’s no way to call this anything other than insanity. I remember the media used to talk about the ‘halo effect’ - well I’m someone who has Almost every MBP between 2002-2012 and every iPhone until the 7 plus.... right now I doubt they’ll make a real pro laptop and so I’m likely gonna switch to a Dell XPS. /end frustration
  • girvo 8y ago
    I thought the RAM thing would decrease battery life, because it requires a different intel chipset — as shown by the contemporary laptops from other manufacturers with the same CPUs and chipset topping out at 16GB as well? I could be misremembering, and it frustrates me either way, but I was certain that Intel also held some blame for this?
    • kbumsik 8y ago
      Dell XPS has up to 32GB with the exactly same CPU.
      • stephenr 8y ago
        And it won’t be using low power memory modules. That’s the trade off.
        • mort96 8y ago
          Maybe, if their MacBook Pros were just a little bit thicker (say, the thickness of the 2013-2015 models), they'd be able to fit a big enough battery for the extra power draw to not matter too much?
          • jpalomaki 8y ago
            "Considering that a 76 watt-hour battery is used in the 15 inch machines, they could have made the battery 30% bigger to hit the ceiling imposed by the Federal Aviation Administration, and they still wouldn’t have had the same battery life as they do now by using LPDDR memory." [1] [1] https://macdaddy.io/macbook-pro-limited-16gb-ram/ https://macdaddy.io/macbook-pro-limited-16gb-ram/
• jlebrech 8y ago
  I'd like a laptop with cherry mx keys, also in future a screen won't be needed if we use VR so some kind of dock for motion controllers could be a thing.
• tjoff 8y ago
  And a battery glued to the keyboard. That is just insane. We just can't trust apple et al to do good designs. It saddens me that common sense and goodwill isn't valued to the point that they are actively working against it.
• bertolo1988 8y ago
  I guess I am the only one happy with the new macpro keyboard lol.
• lc94 8y ago
  Macbooks are a joke. If you ignore the CPU upgrades how exactly is the new Macbook Pros any better than the 2015 one? I would argue they are actually worse in many regards
• jillesvangurp 8y ago
  Overly dramatic; Apple is doing fine. But they are definitely behind in appeasing the pro user segment with decent hardware and not doing nearly enough to fix that. I replaced my 2012 model (essentially the last model that had Steve Jobs' fingers all over it) late last year with the 15" model. So far so good with the keyboard but not looking forward to having to cash in my overpriced apple care and lose it for a week or more while Apple does whatever it needs to do to fix a problem that shouldn't need fixing. What I want and what Apple sold me are miles apart at this point and they came very close to losing my business. Technically, I could be up and running using Linux and not lose a lot of time having to switch tools. Essentially everything I care about should just work. I do backend stuff. In the end I chickened out and had to replace my old laptop in a hurry and went for an easy upgrade to not lose time dealing with a different OS, configuring shit that shouldn't need configuring, shopping around, etc. That's what it means to be a pro, I just don't have time for that stuff. I don't even mind the steep price. I'm totally OK paying 4K for a laptop that I use every day for 3-5 years. Not a problem. Earns itself back within weeks. I bill more per week. But I do want quality and performance. I'm getting neither with the latest model. It's fine but nothing special. Mind you, I have the tricked out version with the extra GPU memory, faster cpu, etc. But it's 16GB, just like the one it replaced. Has a slightly faster 4 core CPU, just like the one it replaced. I guess the SSD is a slightly faster but don't really notice much difference. The retina screen is nice but I would have preferred a non glossy one. I clocked my builds before and after and they're about 30% faster on the new machine. That's appalling for a state of the art laptop replacing a laptop that was half a decade old. On top of that the keyboard absolutely sucks. It's loud, flimsy, lacks keys I need, the arrow keys are tiny, etc. Terrible job in form over function style design. The touch bar is a nice gimmick but not getting a lot of value out of it. Definitely not worth losing the function keys over. I don't think I would miss it. If I were to shop right now and had more time to do so. I'd be looking to get one of those nice new CPUs with 6 or more cores (yes, I actually use them), 32 GB, or 64 GB even. Decent cooling so the laptop doesn't throttle itself every time I need some performance. A keyboard that doesn't suck. And less dependence on dongles would also be awesome though not super critical for me. If that means 0.5cm thicker laptop: great. Not a problem. On a positive note, I know several people that have abandoned Apple. They seem quite happy with their windows/linux laptops but they seem to be replacing them fairly quickly as well. My observation with issues they are having is that competitors still have some catching up to do. You get issues with trackpads on linux, webcams that are in weird positions (dell), build quality issues, etc. All that means in my book that all Apple needs to do is slightly up their game on the quality front and they'll be fine.
• deleted 8y ago
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• tjpnz 8y ago
  I bought my 2017 MacBook Pro from an Apple Store in Tokyo back in March. Would it still be worth buying Apple Care given the new warranty I'll have on the keyboard?
• auslander 8y ago
  Not a biggie. They made one design error, but who did not? And managed it perfectly - free repairs, nothing to whine about, just dont eat cookies above keyboard and don't take it to the beach, treat your tools with respect.
• rawTruthHurts 8y ago
  Considering how many times, according to the media, Apple has been working on its own downfall, I wonder if they actually meant "upfall" and my entire life has been a lie.
• bambax 8y ago
  Products should be taxed based on repairability. This is where regulations excel, to manage incentives so that socially desirable outcomes become desirable for individual actors as well.
• Xixi 8y ago
  I understand this keyboard is brittle, but I absolutely love the feeling of it: I have a hard time typing on my old MacBook Air after using my newer MacBook Pro for more than one year now. If I could change one thing though, I would get rid of that stupid touch bar....
• joncrane 8y ago
  I love iFixit. I used them extensively when I used to run a cell phone repair shop. I don't read them much any more, but they stick to their principles and provide amazing insight. Since the iPhone 3GS, one of Apple's priorities has been to make their devices less repairable. They have made conscious decisions that actually make the device cost more, such as introducing pentalobe fasteners for their iPhone 4 partway into it's manufacturing run. Now that Windows 10 has a built-in Linux subsystem, what advantage do Macs have any more other than signaling?
  • Aloha 8y ago
    I'd gladly pay apple 300 dollars for a copy of OSX I could run on generic PC hardware. macOS is for me, largely just easier, for most of the things I want to do, it 'just works' - in essence, I'm paying up front, for less effort later - at least thats how I see it anyhow. Having used the Linux subsystem in windows, I dont think I could do any serious work in it, outside of say developing a linux console application, even basic functionality like ping doesnt work (in the version I have) - its great for lightweight testing, and to have a unix shell that you can use unix tools in (sed, awk, etc) but its not the same thing as a full unix. While I'm sure that usability of Linux as a Desktop is better than it was a decade ago, at a glance, it doesnt appear to be better enough to replicate the experience I have in macOS. In the end, I just hope Apple releases better hardware before I need to upgrade.
• roystonvassey 8y ago
  I am a huge fan of Apple's products and never understood the fuss when the new Pro Keyboard attracted bad press, reading it on my old, robust pre-2015 era Macbook. Until now. I got the new one at my job three months back. And, here I am, still struggling with and super annoyed with the missed keystrokes (the buttons are so thin/don't press properly), the almost non-existent 'Enter' keys (seriously, who messes with the Enter keys! ), the useless touchbar. I look like a klutz when I have to show code/artefacts to someone because I am always mistyping or closing windows. Additionally, the touchbar led me to one heart-stopping evening of infinite restarts[1]. I am terribly disappointed that they released such a shoddy product, especially since it's used as a workhorse by thousands of developers world-wide. 1. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8189417 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8189417 EDIT: Grammar errors
  • ataturk 8y ago
    It's funny this story popped up because I was in the shower this morning getting ready to go to work and was thinking about how Apple really needs a stick save in their computer line. I can't fathom how Apple could be so out of touch with its computer user base to fail to realize how important these computers are to creative people and what it means when quality suffers and "cheapening" takes place. And for goodness sake, Apple, expensive computers need to be repairable! Not just board swaps, but repairable! And no more stupid dongles. And a decent Mini. And a superb desktop box. They need to get rid of Tim Cook if he can't steer the company in the right direction. The cost-cutting has been absurd!
  • WillPostForFood 8y ago
    *Return key
  • plaidfuji 8y ago
    In addition to all of these valid complaints, it's also loud!
    • virtuabhi 8y ago
      So true. Earlier in meetings we can go about silently browsing or replying to emails. But now the keyboard is so loud that we have to apologize to the speaker!
• nottorp 8y ago
  The real problem is they have no competition, so they can do whatever they want. See the person describing their Dell XPS problems somewhere in this discussion. All the various stupid decisions and quality problems add up slowly, but I'd hate for my 2012 mbpro to die right now. I might reluctantly go for something from Dell or Lenovo with Linux, but I'm sure I'll get a thousand paper cuts from things I used to take for granted but don't work any more.
• eltoozero 8y ago
  Upgradeable, modular machines is the real takeaway, not a drawn out discussion about keyboards. The old MacBook keyboard felt fine and is most certainly adequately robust being of conventional construction. Though I’d argue the iBook/PowerBook keyboard could be considered better purely from a modularity standpoint. ThinkPad keyboard FTW, natch.
• m_st 8y ago
  While I do like Apple and their integrated hardware/software platform (see my problems with Dell XPS 15 reported in another comment), this also shows the problems with a monopole producer of macOS hardware. I still run a 2009 iMac and a 2013 MBP. The MBP is still fine but I'd prefer to replace the iMac with a desktop with external screen. But there is no hardware worth its price! The Mac Pro is great, but too expensive for hardware from 2013. The Mac mini has the same problem, but even worse, the existing hardware isn't fast. This shouldn't happen if multiple companies were in competition for great Mac hardware.
• douglaswlance 8y ago
  Let it be known that I for one like the new clicky keyboard. It is better than the squishy ones from yesteryear. I'm hoping they're progressing toward some kind of haptic keyboard that is entirely sealed so the MBP can be waterproofed.
  • Milner08 8y ago
    I agree I actually prefer the new keyboards and I've not seen any issues yet. Although my opinion may change if I do.
    • douglaswlance 8y ago
      As long as you carry a little can of compressed air in your bag, just in case a crumb gets into the works, you're golden.
• karmakaze 8y ago
  Apple Designed rather than Engineered their downfall. I never liked how engineering served form more than function in things as simple as thin power cords that always fail on me. One exception is the 13" unibody. I almost prefer they did it knowingly for accessory sales because it seems more rational.
• mcculley 8y ago
  I am typing this on an early 2013 MacBook Pro and I dread the possibility that it will die before Apple decides to build a better machine.
  • iDemonix 8y ago
    I've got a 2012 MBP which doesn't have much in the specs department, so it never gets used. I use my early 2015 MBP from work for my work and personal stuff, I check MacRumours regularly praying that Apple will have come to their senses and make a proper MBP again. When I leave this job I'll have the choice between using my 2012 MBP or buying a 2015 model off of eBay, it's a sad state of affairs, and every power user that uses a Mac laptop is in the same boat.
    • mcculley 8y ago
      The other thing is that they really haven't provided a compelling reason to upgrade. Sure, I would like a faster CPU with more cores. But what I really need is more RAM and they don't offer that. My 2013 MacBook Pro has 16GB, just like the 2018 MacBook Pro. I would love to buy a model just like this with more RAM and an integrated LTE modem. A faster CPU would be gravy. I would even be willing to put up with no longer having a real escape key.
• coldseattle 8y ago
  I wonder if most Apple users, and the ones they tested the keyboard with, simply don't use the machines very much. Their core demographic update their social media profiles, and sit in coffeeshops, but how many of them write software? The people here are certainly important for their business, but were missed when Apple was designing a machine for appearance and not functionality.
• traverseda 8y ago
  If you don't need a 4k display or macos, the Xiaomi Probook line is very pleasent. It's basically a 2012 macbook, but with updated internals. It's filling that niche quite well for me.
• michaelcampbell 8y ago
  The horrible user experience that is the Mac Keyboard is so upsetting to me (granted, I'm a keyboard snob). The original Apple ][ keyboard was one of the best I'd ever used. The original 1984 Mac keyboard was great. The kb's in the last few years (the Jony Ive era?) have been so unsatisfying. They work, mostly, but are hardly joyful. I guess when Jony makes his solid chunk of depleted uranium that doesn't actually do anything, he'll be satisfied.
• thebigspacefuck 8y ago
  It would be awesome if Apple would release a MacBook Pro Classic, a 2015 MBP with updated hardware Similar to the iPod Classic that was around for a while after the iPod Touch was released.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • pokemongoaway 8y ago
    Or just test out their fisher-price ideas on the separate MacBook line before pushing them on the pro users!
• chasd00 8y ago
  mine works just fine for me, i would say i even like it. :shrug:
• nailer 8y ago
  Joe Rogan (who obviously writes professionally) just went on a huge rant about Macbook keyboards in his podcast today. 9 minutes in: http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/duncan-trussell-15 http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/duncan-trussell-15
• scruffyherder 8y ago
  I have a MacBook 2012 with the same crappy butterfly keyboard that I barely use as I can't stand it. I wanted to practice soldering and I picked up a TiBook from a junker, and somehow by just stripping it down, and cleaning it up I got it working. So I put it together, and I hate to say it, but for a 2000-2001 design I love it more than any new laptop I have. The keys have enough travel to feel like a keyboard, the monitor is nice and big, and it feels like such a nice machine. Granted with only 512MB of Ram, and a 500Mhz G4 it's not going to be anything useful today, but It's such a damned shame that it feels so ergonomically nice.
• RandallBrown 8y ago
  Here's my unpopular opinion. I like the new keyboard better. I have a 2012 MacBook Pro at home and just recently got the newest one at work. While I don't love the Touch Bar, I don't hate it like most people. I don't use any `esc` heavy apps like vim so that's a pretty big factor. The most annoying thing is honestly the lack of volume buttons. When I use my old MacBook Pro at home the keys feel slow and spongey. The new ones are fast and crisp. I guess I've been lucky enough to not have any of them fail on me.
  • MattBearman 8y ago
    I concur, although we seem to be in the minority. I love the feel of the new keyboard and can type faster on it than my old mbp keyboard. Having said that, mine has developed the issue of sticking keys, for some reason it's the g key that repeats for me. I'm happy they've acknowledged this issue, I'll be getting mine fixed under warrantee.
• samgranieri 8y ago
  I got used to the keys on the new MBP. I also don't have problems with it because I put a really nice keyboard cover on it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRKLH27 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRKLH27
  • BallinBige 8y ago
    TLDR - buy this ^
• kuon 8y ago
  I always carry a mechanical keyboard (wasd without keypad) and a mouse alongside my notebook, I'm always amazed by the people who can work on notebook keyboards and use a trackpad.
• greggarious 8y ago
  I was given a newish macbook at work, and the touch bar really is grating IMHO. I haven't encountered build quality issues but little things like not being able to easily hit ESC in Vim or F5 in Firefox really annoy me. I probably will get a linux friendly laptop from Dell for my personal use when my old one finally keeps over.
• mancerayder 8y ago
  I obviously don't matter, but I was spending several thousand dollars every two years on Apple hardware (laptops, and before that a Mac Pro desktop before it became a small cylinder that I can't upgrade). For one person the total amount I've spent probably approaches 8-10K in the last 10 years or so. But not since the new MacBook Pro laptops. As a heavy vim user, the touchbar is an immediate dealbreaker. As a lover of mechanical keyboards (cherry MX brown both at home and at work), the keyboard is a dealbreaker. As a taker-of-photos and Lightroom/Photoshop user, the USB-C-only and dongle requirements is the final straw (although probably more tolerable than the other two problems). There are other people like me (especially on HN). And now the fact that Apple doesn't seem to care about people like myself, and that they're happy to not take my money, really makes me wonder if they've gotten too arrogant for their britches. There really is a sense of Apple waging war against its users (as the HN parody site n-gate likes to say). I feel like I'm being asked to adapt to the above annoyances - and for what, an operating system that makes it a pain to stop processes that auto-update (Adobe), that has ancient versions of GNU utilities, that has numerous competing / overlapping package managers (brew and so forth)? Sorry, no. Today I have a MS SurfaceBook (not without its problems but tolerable) and a custom build that's lightning-fast thanks to a Ryzen processor and M2 storage (a US $1600 that Apple would probably sell for $3500). For Unix I use MobaXTerm (Putty/PuttyCM/X/Cygwin/etc. all glued together) and cloud instances [edit: and CentOS VMs for work and personal projects; I don't have enough free time in my life for Linux on the desktop's high maintenance] .
• pier25 8y ago
  > And a battery glued to the keyboard. Indeed. I needed to replace the battery on a 2014 rMBP and I was quoted $350 because that meant replacing the whole top panel: battery, keyboard, and trackpad.
• pi-squared 8y ago
  Why the fuck does anybody still buys a mac!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?
• spiderfarmer 8y ago
  I for one am holding off upgrading to see what Apple comes up with for their next Macbook. There are things that I want to upgrade to with the current model, like a brighter screen (for working outside), 802.11ac and a fresh battery, but that's about it. I don't want to risk spending thousands of euros only to gain frustration day in day out.
• ggregoire 8y ago
  Unpopular opinion on HN: I prefer the new keyboard to the old one. Sure it feels a bit weird the first week, but after 8 months typing with it, I can tell you I won’t go back to the old one. And yes it breaks too easily. And the touchbar is useless. But I like the keaboard.
  • usermac 8y ago
    I'm with you man. I walked into an Apple Store and tried the keyboard and said 'no go' but later I said I'd give it a try and it is just fine. Macbook for two years now.
• braindongle 8y ago
  What to buy instead? My 2015 MBP has been a wonderful machine to work on, and there's no way I'm getting one of these little gray turds. So, I'll be using Ubuntu for my daily driver, which is fine. But that last generation MBP is so nice, what other hardware compares?
• shaniber 8y ago
  I really like the keyboard DESIGN. Initially, I despised the keystroke depth, because my hands hurt after typing on it. But once I stopped typing so hard, I found my speed increased, and I didn't have any pain. That being said... I still despise the keyboard for how fragile it is. The slightest mote getting under the keys is enough to throw it off, and I've had so many problems with keys that stop working on the machines around the office. And don't get me started on the dang touchbar. All in all, it's not worth the problems. I'm lucky being in IT, as I can put off "upgrading" my main machine for a while.
• davidf18 8y ago
  Until 2011, I had "T" series and "X" series IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads. I've had to replace a couple of keyboards. It was easy to order a new and to replace it in about 1/2 hour. Apple could learn from this. I use the 15" 2015 MacBook Pro entry level model. Thankfully, one can still purchase this model.
• azr79 8y ago
  I'm still using a late 2013 MBPr, this machine is a tank, took so much beatings, and literally nothing broke in 5 years it runs as if it was its first day of use.
• NE2z2T9qi 8y ago
  Am I the only person on the planet that likes the shallow keys? Although it took a little getting used to, I can definitely type faster on the newer keyboard compared to the older one.
• megasquid 8y ago
  Genuinely have not had a single problem with my new MBP. Owned it a little over a year now. I guess I'm one of the few lucky ones.
• pdimitar 8y ago
  That title is very clickbait but I agree with the article overall: nobody asked for these keyboards. They should have invested in thinner batteries or relocated some components in the laptops, or made thinner mechanical keyboards (Razer has good progress on that).
• newscracker 8y ago
  Scott Forstall was fired for less serious issues, but Apple has continued to roll on without firing any other high level executives (directly connected to technology) in the last few years. Someone needs to take responsibility for the overall sad state of the Mac, all the software quality issues on its platforms, and the hardware quality issues. To outsiders, Apple seems like an opaque and uncaring company, and for good reasons. What Apple needs is to spend time on self-reflection from top to bottom and radical thinking to change "the way things are". Until that happens, I wouldn't expect groundbreaking changes. "Think different" is what it badly needs. The sooner, the better.
• stefek99 8y ago
  LOL. I've been to Apple to fix my keyboard (during the warranty time). A few months later it stopped working again. This time around - out of main warranty and out of warranty on warranty. Now apparently the warranty is extended... Well... Thank you. (not really sure what to think) Don't take your laptop to the playa I believe.